Military Review

The future of China's outer space: the reusable Tengyun system

90

China continues to develop its rocket and space industry and explore new directions. In recent years, special attention has been paid to reusable space systems, and it is already known about the existence of several projects of this kind. Recently, industry representatives have clarified their plans for the promising Tengyun project.


Development news


On October 19 and 20, Wuhan hosted the China International Commercial Aerospace Forum (CCAF 2020). During the event, leading Chinese space industry companies shared their latest achievements and plans for the near future. Several important News announced by China Aerospace Science and Industry Corp. (CASIC).

It is reported that the corporation continues to work on the Tengyun reusable space system, and the design will take several more years. In 2025, CASIC plans to conduct the first full-scale flight of this system into orbit. The timing of the start of operation has not yet been specified.

The technical details and main characteristics of the Tengyun product have not yet been announced. However, this time they published a video of the system at different stages of flight. It shows the system as a whole and its individual components, general architecture and operating principles.


On development stage


The existence of the Tengyun (Cloud Rider) project was announced in 2016. Then it was reported that CASIC, represented by individual institutes, was working on a new reusable space system. According to the plans of that time, development work was to take almost a decade and a half. The first flight of the system was assigned to 2030.

In October 2017, it became known that in the near future, the PRC plans to conduct the first launch of its own reusable ship. It was going to be completed in 2020. At the same time, the type of product, its capabilities and purpose were not specified.

In 2018, the leadership of the 3rd research institute CASIC revealed new details. At that time, the project was in its early stages, and it took several more years to complete this work. The goal of the Tengyun project is to create an aerospace system capable of repeatedly going into orbit and returning to Earth with people and cargo on board.

It was about a system consisting of an accelerator aircraft and a reusable spacecraft. Such a complex will be able to take off from virtually any airfield, go to the most convenient launch area and launch a space "plane" for launching into orbit. After that, the scavenger must return to base. Upon completion of the mission, the Tengyun apparatus must perform a horizontal landing at the airfield.


In the fall of 2018, it became known about successful experiments related to the reusable system. The separation of the booster and the space plane was worked out in the wind tunnel. When uncoupling system elements, a sharp change in flow occurs, which can lead to an accident. Chinese scientists have managed to work out this issue and create an effective aircraft separation system.

In September 2020, the first launch of an experimental reusable spacecraft took place in China. Probably, this was the start, announced back in 2017. There is no information about the connection of this launch with the Tengyun project, but its denials also did not appear.

According to recent news, the design of the Tengyun system is still ongoing, but the first flight will take place in 2025. It is possible that some progress has been made recently, which has made it possible to adjust the project schedule downward. Previously, the first flight was planned in 2030, and now it has been postponed five years to the left. It is quite possible that they will be able to start full-fledged operation in the previously appointed time.

Complex of the future


The published materials show the possible appearance of the future Tengyun system. In terms of its architecture and the appearance of its components, it resembles some foreign developments, but this can be explained by the proximity of the requirements and the solutions used.


The ascent and initial acceleration of the space stage must be carried out by a special aircraft. A tailless machine with a delta wing and two keels is offered. The power plant includes four turbojet engines in two nacelles under the wing. To solve its tasks, the booster aircraft must be supersonic and high-altitude.

A space plane is placed on top of the booster, on a specially provided flat area. In promotional materials, it has an elongated large section fuselage with a rounded nose cone. The use of a delta wing and a V-shaped tail is proposed. In the tail is the only main engine nozzle. The parts of the airframe that experience increased temperature loads have the necessary protection and are black.

CASIC does not disclose the technical characteristics of the system, which contributes to the emergence of curious estimates and forecasts. Such assumptions are partially confirmed by the characteristic features of the appearance of the Tengyun system and foreign experience in the development of reusable space systems.

According to some versions and rumors, the booster plane may be hypersonic. To achieve these characteristics, it must have a combined power plant, combining turbojet and direct-flow components. The hypersonic speed of the booster, with all the difficulty of obtaining it, will reduce the load on the spacecraft's engines and will reduce the fuel supply, freeing up the volumes for the payload.


The availability of such technologies in China has not been confirmed, but also not refuted. At the same time, it is known about various researches and promising projects of rocket technology with the use of advanced technologies and assemblies. It is possible that fundamentally new components are being created for the Tengyun system, incl. special engines.

Applications


The developers of the project mention the main capabilities of the promising complex "Tengyun", but do not reveal the real tasks that he will have to solve. At the same time, when talking about its space developments, China traditionally talks about their peaceful and scientific nature and purpose.

The space plane will be able to take cargo and people on board and deliver them to various orbits. It can be used in independent missions of all kinds, both scientific and military. The device will be able to ensure the operation of space stations, delivering crews and cargo. In addition, Tengyun is theoretically capable of launching light satellites into orbit or returning such equipment to Earth.

It is very likely that the new complex - upon successful completion of the project - will find application in all these areas. The Chinese rocket and space industry is actively developing, and it needs any new means with certain advantages and characteristic capabilities.


Struggle for leadership


To date, several projects of aerospace systems of the Tengyun type have been developed, but none of them has yet advanced further than preliminary tests. Almost all such projects were closed due to the high complexity and lack of decisive advantages over other rocket and space technology.

Currently, in different countries, several projects of aerospace systems of different architecture with different capabilities are being created. These projects are expected to yield tangible results in the foreseeable future. Any of the new developments has a chance to reach testing and real operation - and become the most successful in its class.

The PRC has joined this race and is working on its reusable system. Within five years, it is planned to conduct the first test flight, and by the beginning of the next decade, full-fledged operation may begin. Thus, China with its Tengyun project has a chance to become a world leader. However, as in other advanced areas, this will not be easy and will require the utmost effort and competence.
Author:
Photos used:
CASIC / CCTV
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  1. Uncle lee
    Uncle lee 23 October 2020 06: 25
    +7
    And there is nothing to add ... The Chinese bypassed us. what
    1. Far B
      Far B 23 October 2020 06: 55
      +1
      The Chinese bypassed us
      It's a shame ... There was such a story - when the Shuttle project was closed for the amers and the last crew returned from the last (suddenly) flight, some American girl ran up to the crew commander (some woman, fig knows, I don't remember the name), and gurgled enthusiastically: "I want, aunt, how are you - to surf space, to become an astronaut! What do I need to do for this?" And the gallant commander of the last crew answered gloomily through clenched teeth: "Learn Russian!"
      Oh, how this story at that time inspired the PUTTriots! what caustic comments they made from themselves! And now the Chinese have bypassed us ...
      For those who don't remember, the Shuttle program was closed in 2011. Just nine years ago. Well, citizen Putin leads us the right way - steadily down.
      1. aleksejkabanets
        aleksejkabanets 23 October 2020 14: 32
        +1
        Quote: Dalny V
        Well, citizen Putin leads us the right way - steadily down.

        Putin is only "the tip of the iceberg". But the fact that this group is leading the country to degradation and defragmentation is true.
        1. Alexander Sosnitsky
          Alexander Sosnitsky Yesterday, 13: 14
          0
          In fact, things are not so bad in Russia, the problem is perplexity. The authorities should have patriotic super progressive goals with the priority of the radical, this is the only way to “ignite” the nation. And there is always money. Russia is the only country that can do everything independently of everyone, as in the USSR. What she doesn't use. Why? And that's another question.
          1. aleksejkabanets
            aleksejkabanets Yesterday, 19: 42
            0
            Quote: Alexander Sosnitsky
            The authorities should have patriotic super progressive goals with the priority of the radical, ....

            This is fascism, and this is where it begins. The alternative to socialism is always fascism.
            1. Alexander Sosnitsky
              Alexander Sosnitsky Today, 00: 11
              +1
              radical here is understood as fundamentally new, and not perpendicular, those are not coordinated, and hence the opposite direction. Fascism has a different formula - love for one's own people and hatred for others (in any case, even including the good). In politics, the radical is considered as the denying, the fascist. Let's not be confused. Only something new in principle creates the best, winning product. Just a good product can do everything and they will not yield to anyone in favor of theirs. And to stick out in the world is possible only at the expense of a radically (fundamentally) new. Then they will buy it from you at any price you say.
              1. aleksejkabanets
                aleksejkabanets Today, 00: 14
                +1
                Quote: Alexander Sosnitsky
                the radical is understood here as fundamentally new, and not perpendicular ...

                Thanks for the clarification, I drew the wrong conclusion from your comment.
                1. Alexander Sosnitsky
                  Alexander Sosnitsky Today, 00: 16
                  +1
                  It happens that many imprecise concepts are used that are not explained by the authors
      2. ender
        ender 23 October 2020 16: 31
        +8
        some amersky girl ran up to the crew commander (some woman, fig knows, I don't remember the name)


        very touching story .. and "some woman" name is Christopher Ferguson))

      3. tovarich-andrey.62goncharov
        tovarich-andrey.62goncharov 23 October 2020 17: 32
        -3
        A genius of thought! Finally, not being afraid, he announced out loud the name of the Main Guilty One in Everything!
        PS - he was there quietly whispering to your woman. I’m right, just look and don’t miss the DNA program ...
      4. wow
        wow 28 November 2020 15: 03
        -1
        Don't whine, whiner!
    2. Mooh
      Mooh 23 October 2020 07: 01
      +7
      Something I doubt the reliability. The engine from drying cannot be copied for so many years, but here is a huge hypersonic aircraft with a combined power plant. Smells like a newspaper duck or a Chinese cut.
      1. donavi49
        donavi49 23 October 2020 08: 06
        +7
        Well, this year they launched a mission to Mars with a landing platform. A month later, Chang'e 5 flies - which will land on the moon, dig and bring soil to China. Next year Chang'e 6 - with a full-fledged drilling rig and several separate storages for samples with a total weight of up to 9 kg.

        In December, they will try to land (or only the first stage for research of return without landing) the upper stage LM8 - at the launch of the Ethiopian satellite.

      2. D16
        D16 25 October 2020 12: 50
        0
        The engine from drying cannot be copied for so many years

        They copy CFM-56, not AL-31. But overall, you are right.
      3. Artunis
        Artunis 27 October 2020 13: 48
        0
        Well, for a cut there they quickly lead to the nearest wall, unlike us. And the Chinese people do not take patience and perseverance - they will achieve their goal.
    3. Strannik_GO
      Strannik_GO 23 October 2020 11: 13
      +5
      Smile !, and clap, clap ...
    4. Alesi13
      Alesi13 23 October 2020 13: 50
      +1
      What have already departed?
    5. tovarich-andrey.62goncharov
      tovarich-andrey.62goncharov 23 October 2020 17: 29
      -2
      They just have a larger set of markers.
      1. astepanov
        astepanov 23 October 2020 18: 40
        +3
        Quote: tovarich-andrey.62goncharov
        They just have a larger set of markers.

        You forgot to add a trampoline.
        1. tovarich-andrey.62goncharov
          tovarich-andrey.62goncharov 23 October 2020 19: 53
          -4
          This reusable ship of theirs is still only on paper, like our astronautics. Unclear?! I can’t help you, alas ...
    6. Lesorub
      Lesorub 23 October 2020 18: 13
      +7
      Quote: Uncle Lee
      And there is nothing to add ... The Chinese bypassed us. what

      At one time, the Union on this topic in terms of development was an advanced power - one can recall - "Spiral", MTK-VP.
      1. Artunis
        Artunis 27 October 2020 13: 51
        0
        Unfortunately, the keywords "WAS" and "REMEMBER".
    7. garik77
      garik77 23 October 2020 23: 59
      -1
      Engines for the carrier plane will be dripping again with us! laughing
      1. D16
        D16 25 October 2020 13: 07
        0
        You cannot buy something that is not and is not foreseen in the foreseeable future, so let them themselves saw their own mega-plane, which only China needs in a single copy. lol .
    8. Narak-zempo
      Narak-zempo 25 October 2020 15: 49
      0
      What have you avoided? Brought to light the Gd project "Spiral" half a century ago?
    9. vVvAD
      vVvAD 26 October 2020 13: 13
      0
      Currently, in different countries, several projects of aerospace systems of different architecture with different capabilities are being created. These projects are expected to yield tangible results in the foreseeable future. Any of the new developments has chances to reach testing and real operation - and become the most successful in its class ..

      When it is successfully launched, there will be no limit to our national shame. Baikal / SV Wing cannot finish for 20 years already, they jump from project to project: they have had enough of Angara and Yenisei, now with a lag in time and finances - with reusable steps to Angara and Federation / Eagle. Prospects in such a race are no longer even 2nd place.
      My opinion, which I have repeatedly expressed, is that the future belongs to aerospace systems. And we managed to miss this too: the Clipper project, which could become a worthy heir to the Spiral and a modern swallow in this area, was safely buried.
      Only Burlak remained in the project - and that something will have to be put into space in parts, at least. Moreover, they want a light-class launch vehicle for a sea launch, and even a private trifle of an ultralight class - but this is a light class, unpromising for further space exploration.
      So, we all have fun with trampolines. It's a shame, damn it am
  2. Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Obi-Wan Kenobi 23 October 2020 06: 29
    +7
    However, as in other advanced areas, this will not be easy and will require the utmost effort and competence.

    Well done Chinese!
    They will attach everything you need!
  3. Angelo Provolone
    Angelo Provolone 23 October 2020 06: 29
    -4
    Advertising of Chinese goods
    1. Artunis
      Artunis 27 October 2020 13: 55
      0
      And what to advertise them, look around at home and you will be surprised to find 90% of household appliances made in China, at best with our stickers.
  4. U-58
    U-58 23 October 2020 06: 35
    18
    Who knows how to work well, he flies into space.
    Those who deploy "effective managers" (clever thieves who effectively snatch away) are on the planet. He has nothing to do in space.
  5. Alex 2020
    Alex 2020 23 October 2020 06: 44
    +6
    Well done yellow. They are developing Soviet projects that were successfully sold and forgotten in Russia.
    1. Region-25.rus
      Region-25.rus 23 October 2020 08: 52
      +2
      Project "Spiral" if I remember correctly
    2. D16
      D16 25 October 2020 13: 44
      0
      They are developing Soviet projects that were successfully sold and forgotten in Russia.

      And they will just as safely rest against the creation of an accelerator aircraft. laughing After all, these projects were forgotten in Russia (?) For a reason, but for quite real objective reasons.
      1. Artunis
        Artunis 27 October 2020 13: 57
        -1
        The reason is one and the most important - hunchback and everything that follows.
  6. Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 23 October 2020 09: 50
    +1
    An air launch is generally a good idea, but the launch vehicle must already be designed "with the groundwork" for maximum cost reduction and environmental friendliness.
    As for hypersound, it is probably excluded and voiced to add status to the project. Hypersound implies a stronger structure (+ specific shape), a qualitatively different level of aerodynamics with a load, higher fuel consumption for acceleration, and a larger trajectory for this acceleration - accordingly, we have significantly increased requirements for the design and its operation, but the mass output will not increase by the same proportion, even close. And most importantly, you will have to redo the project, in fact, do it from 0.
    1. vadimtt
      vadimtt 23 October 2020 11: 31
      +1
      There is a nuance here - the carrier does not need to fly in hypersound for a long time, a short dash is needed to start the spacecraft, and then the minimum power and cool down in a dense atmosphere laughing
      1. Knell wardenheart
        Knell wardenheart 23 October 2020 16: 24
        +2
        I agree, but acceleration will require even more fuel = even greater starting mass, changing the geometry of the hull (to adapt to hypersonic effects), changing the geometry with a load (with a shuttle), changing engines to more powerful ones, etc. This is already beyond the scope of deep modernization, in my opinion, it is more attractive for a separate project.
        1. common man
          common man 23 October 2020 18: 46
          0
          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          I agree, but acceleration will require even more fuel

          As far as I understand, the existing launch vehicles are also hypersonic during launch? The same Energy or shuttle.
          Quote. "According to some versions and rumors, the booster aircraft may be hypersonic. To achieve such characteristics, it must have a combined power plant combining a turbojet and a ramjet component."
          Quote: vadimtt
          There is a nuance here - the carrier does not need to fly on hypersound for a long time, a short dash is needed to launch the spacecraft,

          Considering the short duration of hypersonic flight, it is advisable to use traditional rocket engines (boosters) instead of ramjet engines. First, takeoff and acceleration to supersonic on turbojets, acceleration to hypersonic on rocket, launch of a spacecraft, landing on turbojets This will greatly simplify the design.
          1. Monar
            Monar 24 October 2020 04: 53
            +1
            As far as I understand, the existing launch vehicles are also hypersonic during launch?
            During the start, they have a speed of 0. Even the "sound" speed they gain at an altitude where the effect of the atmosphere is reduced to zero. That's why they start with a candle. burning a bunch of fuel.
            The whole point of an air launch is not to carry tens of tons of oxidizer with you for the first 30 km in height.
  7. thinker
    thinker 23 October 2020 10: 37
    +5
    has a chance to become world leaders

    In terms of quantity, it is already a leader. It's only a matter of time, the transition from quantity to quality.
    1. smart fellow
      smart fellow 27 October 2020 10: 14
      0
      What's wrong with the quality?


      2014

      2015

      2016

      2017

      2018

      Your plate is a little outdated. More installations on the server are not allowed to download images.
      The percentage of successful launches also depends on the number of new types of missiles. The new types of missiles have a naturally higher accident rate.
      1. thinker
        thinker 27 October 2020 13: 19
        0
        Quality is a repetition of the beaten track, nothing new. And the plate is really "outdated" - the PRC, the USA and the Russian Federation have added one successful launch each (since the beginning of 2020) yes
  8. Vladimir Mashkov
    Vladimir Mashkov 23 October 2020 13: 45
    +1
    THE PROJECT is wonderful. But how many wonderful projects have already been STATED by different countries, which are still projects! We will wait for REAL confirmations.
  9. Gunther
    Gunther 23 October 2020 13: 54
    -9
    Quote: Uncle Lee
    And there is nothing to add ... The Chinese bypassed us. what

    Yes, staged videos with Chinese pumpkinauts in orbit inspire the Chinese public, although floating air bubbles spoil the landscape a little yes
    They will learn how to make WS-15 engines for their pepelats and soar, but for now, let them lick their lips on the AL-41F1S laughing
    1. aleksejkabanets
      aleksejkabanets 23 October 2020 14: 25
      -2
      Quote: Gunter
      yes, staged videos with Chinese pumpkinauts ...

      Well, you continue to pray to Solntselikogo, fortunately yours will become less and less. Eyes are opening for the people. Maybe soon from the "population" we will again become a People.
      1. tovarich-andrey.62goncharov
        tovarich-andrey.62goncharov 23 October 2020 17: 36
        0
        You are definitely not. From you liberal, with poop, with pooping, sir .... Are you waiting for 2024? We, too. Be Spock!
        1. strelokmira
          strelokmira 23 October 2020 18: 20
          -2
          Looking forward to 2024? We, too. Be Spock!

          What will the Russian Federation finally merge in 2024?
          1. tovarich-andrey.62goncharov
            tovarich-andrey.62goncharov 23 October 2020 19: 56
            +1
            No, you won't wait! Leave wet dreams for meetings of the Apple party and others like them.
        2. aleksejkabanets
          aleksejkabanets 23 October 2020 19: 00
          -1
          Quote: tovarich-andrey.62goncharov
          From you liberal-with poop-sir, sir ...

          This is your sun-faced, he said about himself that he is a liberal, if your memory is not like a fish, then you will remember Putin's election headquarters in 99. There are all these muzzles, unsinkable
          "effective managers" who, no matter how they shit, are simply transferred from one sinecure to another. By the way, before the Revolution, "-s" were used only by lackeys in restaurants and on manor estates, where does this come from in you?
          1. aleksejkabanets
            aleksejkabanets 23 October 2020 19: 02
            -1
            What are the lackeys waiting for in 2024?
          2. tovarich-andrey.62goncharov
            tovarich-andrey.62goncharov 23 October 2020 19: 57
            -1
            And as with narrow-minded, but very lively persons I communicate - so the historical memory helps, sir. Keep the distance.
            1. aleksejkabanets
              aleksejkabanets 23 October 2020 20: 48
              +2
              Quote: tovarich-andrey.62goncharov
              helps, sir. Keep the distance.

              In the sense of a lackey-master? I don't want to be your master. Read more. Gorky, Sholokhov, Zoshchenko, finally you, I sincerely hope that you will get out of this state.
  10. Gunther
    Gunther 23 October 2020 14: 50
    +2
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Quote: Gunter
    yes, staged videos with Chinese pumpkinauts ...

    Well, you continue to pray to Solntseliko ...

    fool
    don't put your latent complexes on normal people, I'm a non-believer laughing
    1. aleksejkabanets
      aleksejkabanets 23 October 2020 18: 27
      0
      Quote: Gunter
      I am an unbeliever

      Whoever does not believe in what? What do you think normal means?
  11. Monar
    Monar 23 October 2020 15: 34
    +4
    Everything is beautiful. There is nothing to say. Question to the experts. Does China have an engine capable of accelerating such a colossus even to supersonic speed? I am silent about hyper.
    If not, then all these 25 years are purely a wish.
    1. aleksejkabanets
      aleksejkabanets 23 October 2020 19: 16
      +4
      Quote: Monar
      Does China have an engine capable of accelerating such a colossus even to supersonic speed? I am silent about hyper.

      China has a normal economy (that is, money to develop projects). Look at the number of Chinese patents and compare with the number of Russian patents (which means their education does not suffer), they will make an engine, and if mobilized, they will have the same growth as under the Stalinist USSR.
      1. Monar
        Monar 24 October 2020 04: 28
        +1
        Well, it means they have no engine. So the 25th year is just for beauty.
        1. D16
          D16 25 October 2020 15: 26
          +1
          Well, it means they have no engine. So the 25th year is just for beauty.

          Here the question is not even in the year of the first start, but in the expediency of creating such a small-scale, highly specialized cadavar. IMHO he is from the category "It was not, no, and it is not necessary" laughing ... And in a complete lack of experience in creating a large supersonic aircraft. They somehow do not get along with subsonic ones.
          1. Monar
            Monar 26 October 2020 05: 11
            0
            Why is it not advisable? Replacing the first stage of the launch vehicle with a more economical option is not a bad idea. And an air start as an option. It is quite possible to disperse such a fool to super sound. Tu-144, Concorde, Tu-160, B-1. I have experience. The truth is not in China. :)
            1. D16
              D16 26 October 2020 07: 32
              +1
              Replacing the first stage of the launch vehicle with a more economical option is not a bad idea.

              There is a whole industry in Russia that is engaged in the production of these first stages. Here they do not want to bother with their reusability because of the reduction in serial production. Rocket scientists don't need it smile ... The real fat plus of this program was regardless of the location of the cosmodrome. But then there was no Sea Launch.
              It is quite possible to disperse such a fool to super sound.

              Nobody accelerated anything like this on the external sling to supersonic and did not start.
              1. Monar
                Monar 26 October 2020 09: 40
                0
                It's not just the rocket scientists. The project itself turns out to be expensive. If anyone pulls on finance, then the Chinese. And there are a lot of purely scientific and practical problems. As you rightly noted - "Nobody has accelerated anything like this on an external suspension to supersonic".
      2. D16
        D16 25 October 2020 14: 10
        0
        China has a normal economy (that is, money to develop projects).

        They will make engines out of money? wassat Filling the project with bucks will not solve the problems, but will only aggravate. the Americans drank well on this topic, in the USSR they drank well, handed the saw to the Chinese, otherwise they have too much money, it's time to fix the situation lol .
        1. aleksejkabanets
          aleksejkabanets 25 October 2020 14: 15
          -3
          Quote: D16
          They will make engines out of money? wassat Filling the project with dough will not solve the problems, but will only aggravate. the Americans sawed well on this topic, in the USSR they saw it well, handed the saw over to the Chinese, otherwise they have too much money, it's time to fix the situation lol.

          Tell me why the more emoticons in a comment, the stupider the comment?
          1. D16
            D16 25 October 2020 14: 26
            0
            Emoticons add emotion to the message. But if you think that it is possible to create a hypersonic accelerator bypassing the stage of a supersonic missile carrier, then you are more stupid. laughing .
            1. aleksejkabanets
              aleksejkabanets 25 October 2020 16: 12
              -3
              And so, let's begin.
              Quote: D16
              the Americans drank well on this topic, in the USSR they drank a lot, handed the saw to the Chinese,

              I would like to inform you that "drank" is understood to mean the appropriation of state money by means of "kickbacks" and the transfer of orders to "their own firms" at inflated prices. So, in the USSR there were no "own firms", for the simple reason that hired labor for a private person was prohibited, that is, there were no private firms, especially those working on state contracts. In addition, there were two types of money (simplified), cash, for people and non-cash, for businesses. It was impossible to transfer money from non-cash to cash. Consequently, there is a lack of knowledge of the topic.
              Quote: D16
              They will make engines out of money?

              Maybe you don't know, but any development costs money and not small ones.
              Quote: D16
              But if you think that it is possible to create a hypersonic accelerator bypassing the stage of a supersonic missile carrier, then you are more stupid.

              Please explain to me the "couch strategist" if China has an urgent need to create a supersonic missile carrier and why. In my opinion, China, having the range of missiles that it has, does not need a supersonic missile carrier.
              Quote: D16
              Emoticons add emotion to the message.

              As for emoticons, save your emotions for your peers. Information intended for comprehension does not need emotional coloring. Adults do not think with emotions.
              1. D16
                D16 25 October 2020 21: 09
                +1
                I would like to inform you that "drank" is understood to mean the appropriation of state money by means of "kickbacks" and the transfer of orders to "their firms" at inflated prices.

                Of course in the USSR the budget was mastered, but this led to the same result. The budget was running out of money. crying
                It was impossible to transfer money from non-cash to cash.

                How narrowly do you think. Sawing does not mean trivial to steal. Probably not found the USSR. Thousands of people lived on this money. Working honestly from eight to five. The question is whether it was worth diverting such resources to questionable projects when there are alternative ways of transferring the load to LEO with much less technical risk.
                Please explain to me the "couch strategist" if China has an urgent need to create a supersonic missile carrier and why.

                - "Hands need training." When I was a kid, my classmate's father told me this clever idea. Subsequently, all my life I realized that he was right. What kind of lineup does China have? Remotorized on our D-30 Tu-16?laughing They cannot make their own normal subsonic passenger aircraft. And then the application for a hypersonic aircraft in five years. Lace merchants may be very rich, but they will remain lace merchants.
                Adults do not think with emotions.

                And they don't even think about them. They convey their attitude to the subject of discussion.
                1. aleksejkabanets
                  aleksejkabanets 25 October 2020 22: 03
                  -2
                  Quote: D16
                  Sawing does not mean corny to steal

                  To cut is to steal. Misuse of funds is different. Sharashki about it.
                  Quote: D16
                  "Hands need training"

                  Are you suggesting that the Chinese make a supersonic strategist because "our hands are not for boredom"? Very clever.
                  Quote: D16
                  What kind of lineup does China have? Remotorized on our D-30 Tu-16?

                  I wrote about rockets.
                  Quote: aleksejkabanets
                  In my opinion, China, having the line of missiles that it has, does not need a supersonic missile carrier.
                  1. D16
                    D16 25 October 2020 22: 23
                    +1
                    To cut is to steal. Misuse of funds is different. Sharashki about it.

                    No. This means using budget funds to no avail.
                    Are you suggesting that the Chinese make a supersonic strategist because "our hands are not for boredom"? Very clever.

                    Because the development process goes from simple to complex. And the bar they set obliges to have experience in lower-level development ..
                    I wrote about rockets.

                    And they write about the plane. lol
              2. D16
                D16 25 October 2020 21: 21
                +1
                Maybe you don't know, but any development costs money and not small ones.

                Have they been CFM-56 for how many years? Thinking about lack of money? lol
                1. aleksejkabanets
                  aleksejkabanets 25 October 2020 22: 04
                  -2
                  Quote: D16
                  Have they been CFM-56 for how many years? Thinking about lack of money?

                  No, in this case due to lack of desire.
                  1. D16
                    D16 25 October 2020 22: 11
                    +1
                    No, in this case due to lack of desire.

                    So, promising Chinese developments are related to the WS-15 and a new engine for the Y-20 transport aircraft on the same core?
  12. NF68
    NF68 23 October 2020 16: 49
    +2
    Here is backward China. And what will he be able to give out in 25-30 years?
    1. tovarich-andrey.62goncharov
      tovarich-andrey.62goncharov 23 October 2020 17: 38
      0
      The main thing is not what China will give out - (God bless him). The main thing is where and what we (Russia) will be. This is the central question.
      1. aleksejkabanets
        aleksejkabanets 23 October 2020 19: 23
        +1
        Quote: tovarich-andrey.62goncharov
        The main thing is not what China will give out - (God bless him). The main thing is where and what we (Russia) will be. This is the central question.

        If we do not change anything, then we will be in the same place as now, in a certain place starting with the letter "Zh".
        1. tovarich-andrey.62goncharov
          tovarich-andrey.62goncharov 23 October 2020 19: 59
          0
          We will not. You just have to work.
          1. aleksejkabanets
            aleksejkabanets 23 October 2020 20: 54
            -1
            Quote: tovarich-andrey.62goncharov
            We will not. You just have to work.

            Yes, how Chubais works, Rogozin also works well, and we will be equal to them ..
        2. Artunis
          Artunis 27 October 2020 14: 12
          -1
          Probably we will fall out of there by a natural way and turn into what substance you yourself understand.
      2. Vadim237
        Vadim237 23 October 2020 23: 03
        +1
        "The main thing is where and what we (Russia) will be". While Russia is demonstrating in practice the introduction of hypersonic technologies in rocketry, which means that there are no problems in materials science, gas dynamics, heat engineering, electronics, communication and control systems - everything is developing.
        1. D16
          D16 25 October 2020 14: 20
          -1
          And yet no one even stutters about hypersonic booster aircraft. The problem of withdrawal to LEO is solved by rocket scientists using quite traditional methods. The creation of such a pepelats will pretty much stifle rocketry as a production industry due to a lack of loads.
      3. NF68
        NF68 25 October 2020 16: 29
        0
        Quote: tovarich-andrey.62goncharov
        The main thing is not what China will give out - (God bless him). The main thing is where and what we (Russia) will be. This is the central question.


        Anyway, you will have to look at China. And not only in Russia.
    2. D16
      D16 25 October 2020 21: 28
      -1
      Here is backward China. And what will he be able to give out in 25-30 years?

      Restyling of Soviet developments. And the designers will be Volvo and Pininfarina. laughing
      1. NF68
        NF68 26 October 2020 20: 22
        0
        Quote: D16
        Here is backward China. And what will he be able to give out in 25-30 years?

        Restyling of Soviet developments. And the designers will be Volvo and Pininfarina. laughing


        It looks like the Chinese won't stop there.
        1. D16
          D16 26 October 2020 21: 25
          -1
          Let's see. So far I only see pictures.
          1. NF68
            NF68 27 October 2020 20: 02
            0
            Quote: D16
            Let's see. So far I only see pictures.


            Even 25-30 years ago, China was very far behind the developed countries of the world. But since then, a lot has begun to change in China.
  13. Gunther
    Gunther 23 October 2020 19: 36
    +3
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Quote: Gunter
    I am an unbeliever

    Whoever does not believe in what? What do you think normal means?

    take it easy stop , I understand autumn, from every iron they whip up horror about the terrible pocketmanovirus and all that ... laughing
    and I am a disbeliever in the "sun-faced geniuses of multi-pass" and in the post-launch videos of the Chinese, who, not only are not capable of assembling an engine for entering orbit, for which year they buy from us AL-31F and AL-41F1S for j-20 ..... lol
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 23 October 2020 21: 23
      +3
      Chinese on the far side of the moon

      1. D16
        D16 25 October 2020 15: 00
        +1
        Chinese on the far side of the moon

        Lunokhod1 was launched at 70m.
  14. lazy
    lazy 24 October 2020 09: 18
    -1
    the Chinese are great and the system is much more reusable than the first stage of the Mask
    1. D16
      D16 25 October 2020 15: 07
      -1
      the system is much more reusable than the first stage of the Mask

      It was smooth on paper. The Mask's steps have flown, they are flying now and will continue to fly, but what does the Chinese fly? Restyled Tu-16 on our own engines? laughing
    2. Pandiurin
      Pandiurin 28 November 2020 15: 12
      0
      Quote: lazy
      the Chinese are great and the system is much more reusable than the first stage of the Mask


      If the Chinese have this plane for the first stage, then yes, it is more expensive (at a time) and reusable. The only thing is that it (the plane) is less versatile in terms of the mass of the second stage. For a reusable stage in the form of a rocket, there are options to use only one as the first stage or in a bundle 2, 4.
      Then there may be a wider range of power.
      This will not work with an airplane, a bunch of two pieces will not work.

      Those. for such an aircraft, one must rely on a certain mass and cheap launch of satellites with strictly limited mass and dimensional characteristics, for example, no more than one ton.