Military Review

Combat aircraft. This evil Carlson ...

154
Combat aircraft. This evil Carlson ...

It was not for nothing that I remembered the literary hero. If you compare him with all the other characters of Mrs. Lindgren, then he clearly stands apart from everyone. Yes, there are all a little rebels like Peppy and Emil, or very refined ones like Kid or Calle. But Carlson is a separate phenomenon. They say that the idea of ​​a flying freeloader and a thief to Mrs. Lindgren was thrown by one of the publishers, a Russian emigrant. I believe, because Carlson is more appropriate in the Russian head than in the Swedish one.


Our hero, whom I consider one of the best fighters of World War II, is similar to literary fiction. And Russian roots, and the fact that he really was very different from his contemporaries. And he was, to put it mildly, rather big.

In general, "a man in full bloom." But very vicious. Ripablic R-47 Thunderbolt.

It all began in 1940.

In the USA, a special conference was held at the USAAC Research and Testing Center, to which pilots who took part in the Battle of Britain were invited.

The conclusions of the conference were very disappointing: in the prospect of a war with Germany, the US Air Force did not have aircraft capable of withstanding the German. Perhaps, only the Lightning R-38 was suitable for something in this regard, and even then in comparison with the Bf.110, which clearly did not shine.

Yes, there were promising R-39s (which “didn’t” enter either the British or the Americans) and R-40C, which “Tomahawk”, R-40 “Kittyhawk” was already in service, but alas, it wasn’t a competitor to Bf.109 could be from the word at all. In the American version and application.

And there was still war with Japan, which had already begun its blitzkrieg on the Pacific Theater.

What Americans cannot take away is their ability to respond to problems. At least in those days. The US Air Force realized that they needed a breakthrough aircraft that could fight both the sturdy Bf.109 and the nimble A6M2.


And here, oddly enough, they helped ... the Russians! And this is that moment in stories The US Air Force, which by no means canceled or painted over.

Indeed, the plane, which until the advent of the Mustang was the only support, accompanied by bombers, was created by two Russian emigrants, natives of the Russian Empire, who emigrated to America.

Alexander Mikhailovich Kartveli.


Born in Tiflis, graduated from Petrograd Institute of Technology, Higher aviation School and the Higher Electrotechnical School in France. He worked as a test pilot at the Blerio company, where, after a terrible accident, he parted forever with the sky.

So the world lost a pilot, but acquired a designer.

Alexander Nikolaevich Prokofiev-Seversky.


An even more interesting personality. Also a native of Tiflis, from the nobles. The pilot, a participant in the First World War, an ace with 13 shot down planes, was shot down, lost his leg and flew on the prosthesis with the personal permission of Tsar Nicholas II.

He appeared in the USA as an employee of the Russian embassy, ​​was an assistant to the naval attaché for aviation matters. When the Russian embassy was closed after the conclusion of a separate peace with Germany, he remained in the United States.

The surname Seversky, under which Alexander Nikolayevich went down in the history of US aviation, is the stage name of his father, the owner of the theater, who played on stage under this name.

Seversky was also an excellent engineer. In a short time, he patented several very interesting things such as a device for refueling in the air or an oil shock absorber chassis. And the first bomber sight in 1925, the US government bought from Seversky. For just a fabulous amount of $ 25.

And it so happened that in Seversky's company, Seversky Aircraft Corp., the two fellow countrymen met, and Kartveli became the chief engineer. And when Seversky removed the board of directors in 1939, Kartveli became the technical director.

The company was renamed the Republic Aviation Company.

And it was in this company that the XP-47V project was born. Heavy fighter project.


In general, 80% of the ideas laid down in the project were the ideas of Seversky, which by that time were no longer in the company. But the war, which began in Europe, showed that the idea of ​​supporters of a light fighter, which included Kartveli, turned out to be untenable.

A light and very maneuverable aircraft with two 7,62 mm machine guns looked simply ridiculous in a hypothetical battle with the armored Bf.109E with its two guns and machine guns.

There was a funny situation: the ideas of the exiled Seversky began to embody their opponent Kartveli. But I had to, because his developments were not only not up-to-date, they generally had no chance of life.

And so with the efforts of the company "Ripablik" appeared in the metal XP-47V. “X” is “experimental”, “B” is in fact the third version after 47 and 47A, which were not built.


The plane turned out outstanding and ambiguous.

To begin with, the weight was just huge. Kartveli, realizing that speed and climb would be needed, installed the most powerful engine that the US industry could give. That is, Pratt & Whitney XR-2800-21, which weighed 1068 kg “dry”. And everything else reached for the engine.


So the P-47 by weight was fat. 5 670 kg is pretty much. Sumo wrestler. For comparison: Bf.109E, a hypothetical rival, weighed only 2 kg, and Bf. 510 - 110 kg. And if we go further, some light bombers were inferior to this fighter. Su-6, for example, weighed only 040 kg on take-off.

Nevertheless, all this was more than compensated.

To begin with, as I said, a Pratt & Whitney XR-2800-21 engine was installed on the plane, which produced 1850 hp on take-off. Then the serial Pratt & Whitney R-2800-17 take-off power of 1960 hp went into action.

That was a lot. Lots of. For comparison: the Hurricane II had an engine of 1260 hp, the Messerschmitt Bf.109E and even less - 1100 hp

Everything seemed luxurious, but no. There was also the problem of altitude, which also stood in the requirements put forward by the Air Force. The plane was supposed to be high-altitude, since it was supposed to be a fighter escorting bombers who do not fly very often on a shaver.


For an airplane to feel good at altitude, it needs air. What is higher is less. All the world's designers tried to use engine-driven turbocompressors to solve this problem.

The principle of operation of the TC was very simple: exhaust gases were sent to a turbine, which actuated a compressor that compresses the air. But simplicity is not always simple. Large sizes, frequent failures, burn-outs - these are not all the disadvantages of turbochargers.

It is worth saying that many designers could not properly resolve all issues related to turbochargers. Including our many engineers rescued.

But Kartveli could. And besides, in such an unusual way that I allow myself to describe it in detail.

Kartveli did not install the turbocharger on the engine, but carried it in the tail! It is clear that it was worth not just extra kilograms, but tens, or even hundreds. But having removed their head, they usually do not cry through their hair.

The result is a very twofold business.

Exhaust gases were sent to the tail through the pipeline. The pipeline weighed fairly, BUT: while the gases went to the compressor, they COOLED !!! That is, Kartveli solved this first problem, the problem of overheating of the fuel cell. Funny, but the TC really stopped crashing from overheating.

Further, a hefty snail TC allowed to make the nose smaller. And considering what a hefty engine they put there, it was simply charming, since it significantly improved the visibility of the pilot.

The total length of the pipelines was more than 20 meters, and the whole farm weighed almost 400 kg. Yes, I had to fight with the weight distribution, but it was worth it, and that's why.

It is advisable to cool the air that is supplied to the engine. And after the TC, where the air is compressed, it, according to the laws of physics, heats up quite well this way. For this, air radiators or intercoolers are used. Kartveli installed an intercooler there, in the tail, and took air for cooling the compressed in the turbine with an air intake located in the nose, under the engine.

Further, the air went along the bottom to the radiator, and exited through nozzles on the sides of the rear of the fuselage.

A very complicated, but interesting scheme, in which three air streams constantly moved along the axis of the aircraft: hot exhaust gases from nose to tail and external cold air for cooling, and a stream of cooled compressed air for the engine from tail to nose.

Another innovation was the lack of tanks in the wings. All tanks with gasoline and oil were in the fuselage and were protected. This eliminated the danger of losses when bullets and shells hit the wings and made it possible to place in the wings just a creepy essentially 12,7-mm machine gun battery with just great ammunition. But about weapons a little bit later.


Of course, in addition to protectors, there was still just armor. For the pilot and tanks, since they (the pilot and tanks) had to remain unharmed in battle.

From the front hemisphere they were well protected by a double star of the engine. In addition, the pilot had bulletproof glass and armor plate protecting the legs and lower part of the hull. Even the pilot had a 12 mm armor plate. In addition, all the aforementioned minced meat in the tail could also serve as additional protection, since the loss of TC and intercooler in battle did not affect combat efficiency at all.

But the most interesting element of the plane I would call the armored ski, which was installed at the bottom of the fuselage and closed the pipelines with gases and air. But its role was not that, but had the goal of saving the plane from complete destruction in the event of landing "on the belly", that is, without landing gear.


Kartveli’s wing also surprised. The R-47 wing had a very small area for such an aircraft. The wing load was large, it was 213 kg / sq. m, but since the wing shape was close to the ideal ellipse (Spitfire, hello!), the total wing resistance was very small, less than that of Messerschmitt Bf.109 and Foske-Wulf Fw.190.

R-47 developed a maximum speed of 663 km / h at an altitude of 7800 m with a landing speed of 148 km / h. The latest German fighter Bf.109F-4 at that time developed a maximum speed of 606 km / h at an altitude of 6200 m at a landing speed of 135 km / h. High landing speed is, of course, a serious thing, especially with such a mass, but, as it turned out, the corresponding chassis elements decide everything.

Due to the wide fuselage with a convex lower part, the plane immediately received the unofficial nickname “Jug” - “Pitcher”. In the UK, where the P-47 got under the Lend-Lease program, this nickname was considered an abbreviation for Juggernaut, a symbol of destructive evil power.

And the official name Thunderbolt was proposed by the director of one of the departments of Ripablic company Hart Miller.


Now about weapons.


First six, then eight wing machine guns "Colt Browning" M2. With ammunition of 300 rounds per barrel, but if you really need it, you could shove 400.

Yes, one could argue for a long time, which is better, 8 x 12,7 mm or like the A6M2 Zero, 2 x 20 mm + 2 x 7,7 mm. Or at Bf.109E.

In my personal opinion, the linear placement of weapons in the nose of the aircraft, as in the Bf.109F, was more useful. One 20 mm cannon in the collapse of the block and two synchronous 7,92 mm machine guns. It’s more convenient to aim, or rather shoot. Set of air sniper weapons. Ours generally managed on some Yak-9 modifications with one ShVAK gun and one 12,7 mm BS. And nothing dealt.

When you have eight such trunks flapping from your wings, and as the M2 machine gun was very good, you can also completely remove many questions. From such a cloud of steel cucumbers, at least something will fly. And 12,7 mm is not 7,62 mm.


Well, the Americans did not have a normal gun at that time. She didn’t exist at all, so they fought the whole war with the Spanish-Suis and the Colt Browning, if at all. “Oldsmobil”, which “Colt-Browning” M4 and M10 caliber 37 mm, which was put on the “Cobra”, was brought to mind only by 1942. Well, the Americans did not really like the characteristics of the guns, which nevertheless had more shortcomings than advantages.

The main thing was that in battle the enemy fighter “freezes” in the sight for literally a split second. A 37 mm gun may not have time to fire at all, a 20 mm gun at best once. And the M2 machine gun, which has a rate of 600 rpm, will have time to fire 3-5 bullets. And there are eight machine guns ... Total - 40 12,7 mm bullets. There is a chance to get.

So the R-47 became one of the fighters with a very high second salvo. Steeper was only the FW-190A-4 (4 x 20 mm, 2 x 7,92 / 13 mm). From the US - R-61 "Black Widow" (4 x 20 mm, 4 x 12,7 mm).


Plus bombs, NURSES ... Weighty.

And then the United States entered the war. To start with Japan. It turned out that the P-40s are not very good in the fight against the A6M2. But the main problem that the allies in Europe faced was the lack of an escort fighter for bombers going to German targets.

With the heavy bombers that the British, the Americans had more than normal. B-17 and B-24 among the Americans, “Wheatley”, “Lancaster”, “Halifax” - in general, there was something to bring the bombs to and dump the Germans on their heads.

However, German air defense very much prevented this. Including the work of fighter-interceptor pilots who regularly intercepted and exterminated. Not for nothing that the British switched to night work, at night there was a chance to reach the goal and work, and then go back. In the afternoon - more than doubtful.

And the fighters that the countries had (Hurricane, Spitfire, Kittyhawk) were not able to escort the bombers to the target. There was not enough flight range, and with altitude, frankly, it was not very beautiful. With the exception of Spitfire. But everything was decided by the range.

Therefore, as soon as escort fighters rolled off, German fighters appeared and began to do their job. Yes, the R-38 Lightning was able to go the distance from airfields in Britain to targets in Germany, but this car, albeit strong and well-armed, was not a worthy rival to the Messerschmitt. Around the same as Bf.110 was not a rival to Spitfire.


But, by and large, despite the shortcomings of the R-47 in the form of weight, which did not allow him to quickly gain height, the Allies did not have much choice. Installing an improved version of the Pratt & Whitney R-2800, lighter (almost 100 kg), improved speed data at heights, but the bottom of the P-47 was still an iron.

The aircraft gained altitude of 5000 m in 8,5 minutes; the rate of climb near the ground was 10,7 m / s, and the turn time was 30 s. At the same time, the Bf-109G and Fw-190A-3 had a climb rate of 17 and 14,4 m / s, and the turn time was 20 and 22 s, respectively.

Therefore, the P-47 tried to apply in operations where rate of climb did not play a special role. At the headquarters of the Allies, everyone liked the car. For lack of a better.

In general, in the world at that time (1942) there was only one aircraft that could compare with the R-47V at altitudes of more than 6000 m. Oddly enough, but it was a Soviet MiG-3.


Aircraft with an engine of only 1350 hp It developed a speed of 640 km / h at an altitude of 7800 m, and climbed to 5000 in 7 minutes. But the MiG's armament was sharply inferior to the R-47.

During the production of the R-47B, the design of the aircraft was constantly improved. It was to escort heavy bombers at high altitude that they began to use an anti-icing device for the windshield of the cabin. Further, for such flights, one-time suspension tanks for fuel were invented. A 757 liter (200 gallon) tank was made from plastic-impregnated pressed paper.


Such a tank increased the flight range to 2 km at a cruising speed of 000 km / h, which made it possible to accompany the bombers.

In the autumn of 1943, the production of P-47D aircraft began, on which a new engine with the Pratt & Whitney R-2800-63 methanol-water mixture injection system was installed. Plus improved engine lubrication and cooling systems.

The engine developed a take-off power of 2 hp, and with the injection of a mixture increased the short-term engine power to 000 hp Use afterburner allowed for 2 minutes. Forcing the engine provided a speed increase of up to 430 km / h.

In addition to hanging tanks, the fuel supply in the main tanks of the fuselage was increased to 1150 liters. This made it possible to combine fuel tanks and bombs on an external sling, depending on the flight range to the target. The maximum bomb load was 2500 pounds (1130 kg). Two bombs of 1000 pounds (450 kg) and one of 500 pounds (225 kg). Or instead of a 500-pound bomb, a fuel tank of the same weight.

If there was a need for a bombing strike, then often one machine gun was removed from each wing to lighten the weight and the ammunition was reduced from 425 to 250 rounds.

In general, underwing suspensions greatly reduced speed, to 70 km / h, but the need for a toothy fighter-bomber with a large radius of action was very great, especially at the Pacific Theater.

And the fact that the R-47 could safely fly at such an altitude that the main aircraft of the enemy could not afford, made it indispensable both for escorting bombers and for use as a fighter-bomber.


It was flying at high altitudes that required the development of a machine gun heating system. In general, initially such a system (electric) was, but it worked extremely capriciously and often could not cope with the task. And the lubrication of the machine guns froze, preventing the possibility of firing a shot.

Then, for the heating of machine guns, part of the hot compressed air from the turbocharger began to be diverted. Inside the aircraft, another airway tunnel appeared.

The experience of the combat use of the R-47 showed that, unfortunately, the “dead zone” of the rear view of the pilot is too large. As an attempt to correct the situation, it was decided to install the so-called teardrop-shaped lantern of Malcolm, such as that installed on the Spitfire of later modifications.

The idea came up, and after a series of improvements caused by the fact that the gargroth behind the lantern was removed, the teardrop-shaped lantern was registered not only on the Thunderbolt, but also on the Mustang.


The first combat flight of the P-47 took place on March 10, 1943. As often happens, the first pancake came out lumpy: because of the difference in frequencies between the British and American Air Force, the dispatchers simply could not adjust the Thunderbolt course, and they simply did not find the enemy. After eliminating the problems, the flights resumed, and on April 15, 1943 the first air battle took place with the participation of the R-47. The battle was marked by the first victory, was shot down by the FW-190.

And on August 17, P-47 was first escorted by B-17 bombers for the first time in the afternoon in raids on Schweinfurt and Regensburg. 19 victories and three losses were announced. In fact, the Germans confirmed the loss of 7 aircraft. True, in fairness it should be noted that the German fighters reportedly shot down 11 Thunderbolts.

So the R-47 began its combat activities at the front. And by 1944, this plane fought wherever the Allies fought, on all military operations, except Alaska.


Thunderbolt ended the war with such statistics: 3 victories (including those destroyed by bombs and missiles on the ground) with 752 aircraft lost. True, non-combat losses are also included in the losses here due to the fault of the pilots.

Pilots who fought on the R-47 in Europe reported the destruction of more than 68 trucks, 000 steam locomotives, more than 9 wagons, and 000 armored vehicles.

Honestly, the numbers seem to me more than overestimated. An order of magnitude. But the fact that the R-47 was hunting at the end of the war, even for single trucks, is a fact. And the fact that the Thunderbolt pilots inflicted real damage by assaults is obvious.


In general, the attack aircraft in the absence of decent opposition from the R-47 turned out to be quite good.


The Thunderbolt also fought on the Eastern Front. But not very actively used. 1944 P-1945D aircraft came to the Soviet Union in 196-47 under a lend-lease. They were used in parts of the South-Western Front as a high-altitude fighter in air defense of rear cities and in the 255th fighter aviation regiment of the Northern Air Force fleet.

Perhaps, it was only in the Northern Fleet that the R-47 made real combat sorties to cover torpedo bombers and attack aircraft and hunt small vessels as an attack aircraft.


Still, it was not a plane of our fighting style.

One of the best engineer-pilots of the Flight Testing Institute Mark Lazarevich Gallay recalled the flight on the R-47:

“Already in the first minutes of the flight, I realized: this is not a fighter! Stable, with a comfortable spacious cabin, comfortable, but not a fighter. The Thunderbolt had poor maneuverability in the horizontal and especially in the vertical planes. The plane slowly accelerated: the inertia of the heavy machine affected. The Thunderbolt was great for simple flight en route without drastic maneuvers. This is not enough for a fighter. ”



Nevertheless, it turned out as follows: when the R-47 arrived through the Arctic convoys to the north, the command of the Northern Fleet decided to arrange its tests for the aircraft. And since there was no own test base, the aircraft were transferred to the 255th IAP, where at that time the most powerful flight crews were formed.

Test flights were carried out from October 29 to November 5, 1944. At the same time, the possibility of basing the P-47 at polar airfields was investigated. The test results were generally favorable.

The Thunderbolt Protocol for Testing the P-47D-22-RE Aircraft was sent to the command address.

“From the commander of the Air Force of the Northern Fleet, Lieutenant General of Aviation Preobrazhensky, No. 08489 of November 13, 1944.

Report to the Commander of the Air Force of the Navy of the USSR Marshal Zhavoronkov

I report that according to the results of testing the P-47D-22-RE Thunderbolt aircraft of serial construction, I decided to equip one squadron of the 255th IAP with 14 Thunderbolt aircraft.

The squadron will perform the following tasks:

1. Long-range escort of bombers
2. Horizontal and low-altitude bombing based on the bomb load of up to 1000 kg per aircraft
3. Attack of convoy guard ships. ”

Marshal Zhavoronkov put a resolution on the document:

“Approve. Rearm the regiment. Select 50 aircraft. ”

So the 255th IAKP became a regiment fully armed with the Thunderbolts.

From January 1943 until the end of the war, being part of the 5th mine and torpedo division of the Kirkenes Red Banner Air Force Division of the Northern Fleet, pilots of the 255th IAP made 3 combat sorties with an attack of 386 hours, conducted 4 air battles, as a result of which 022 aircraft were shot down the enemy.

Of these: Ju-88 - 3, Me-110 - 23, Me-109 - 88, FW-190 - 32, FW-189 - 2, He-115 - 2, BV-138 - 1.

As can be seen from the list, it was not important for our pilots who to shoot down. Since the Thunderbilt was able to handle any German aircraft, it was in our hands (and even the Hurricanes fought normally with ours), it became a rather formidable machine.

It is a pity that it was not possible to find data on the losses of 255 IAP. It would be very informative.

In general, it was a very good fighting vehicle. Yes, there were flaws with the maneuver. But this is a minus for our pilots who needed precisely the maneuver for the "dog dump", inevitable when covering their own and attacking other people's bombers and attack aircraft.

And the R-47 was created to cover long-range bombers marching at high altitude. That is what we did not have. But the plane is not to blame.


And so it was a fast (under certain conditions), well-armed, durable machine. Very tenacious.

The British pilots had such an anecdote (with British humor): “Thunderbolt pilot can easily avoid anti-aircraft fire. You have to run back and forth inside the plane, and they will never get into you. ”

As a fighter, the R-47 was not the best. But as a fighter-bomber and attack aircraft, he occupies a worthy place in the history of aircraft that won that war.


LTX P-47D-30-RE

Wingspan, m: 12,42.
Length, m: 10,99.
Height, m: 4,44.
Wing Area, m2: 27,87.

Weight, kg:
- empty aircraft: 4 853;
- normal take-off: 6;
- maximum take-off: 7 938.

Engine: 1 x Pratt Whitney R-2800-59 Double Wasp x 2000 hp (2 hp afterburner).

Maximum speed, km / h: 690.
Cruising speed, km / h: 563.

Practical range, km:
- without PTB: 1;
- with PTB: 2 898.

Maximum rate of climb, m / min: 847.
Practical ceiling, m: 12 192.

Crew, person: 1.

Armament:
- eight 12,7 mm Colt-Browning M2 machine guns;
- up to 1 kg of bombs, napalm tanks or NURS on external sling.


Units produced: 15 660.

On the whole - indeed, like Carlson, a man is at least somewhere (at least to shoot down, even to storm), in the prime of his life.
Author:
154 comments
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  1. AsmyppoL
    AsmyppoL 28 June 2020 05: 08 New
    15
    Thanks to the Author !! I read it with great interest!
  2. Grandfather
    Grandfather 28 June 2020 05: 12 New
    17
    In the article, everything is fine, letters and pictures, and drawings. carried away, and read to the last letter. My congratulations Roman, peshiescho! good
  3. Fitter65
    Fitter65 28 June 2020 05: 49 New
    +7
    R-40C, which the Tomahawk, R-40 Kittyhawk was already in service,
    R-40C, produced since April 1941, the British name gave the general name to all modifications from R-40 to R-40C Tomahawk. The first Hauk 87 took off on May 22, 1941. It was the English Kittyhaw I (P-40D). The P-40E (Hawk 87A-3) is the first Warhock (the so-called all P-40 series that were operated in the United States), which was produced in large quantities after Pearl Harbor. Well, in short, the Kittyhawk entered service not much later than the Tomahawk.
    Well and so in addition
    The first 195 Tomahawks arrived in Arkhangelsk in October 1941. These were English cars, from which the British hastened to get rid of them at the first opportunity.

    Well and how they were designated with us
    In early 1942, the first Kittyhawks arrived and their American counterparts, the P-40E, as well as the P-40F and K (313 cars), M (220 cars) and N (980 cars). In Soviet documents, the P-40E aircraft were still listed as Tomahawks, the name Kittyhawk began to be applied only to the following modifications.
    . The R-40, nicknamed Kittyhawk, could not enter service before the R-40C ...
  4. smaug78
    smaug78 28 June 2020 05: 51 New
    +9
    freeloader and thieves Mrs. Lindgren threw someone from the publishing house, a Russian emigrant.
    As without ours ... And in truth, the fat Goering prototype of Carlson ...
  5. lucul
    lucul 28 June 2020 05: 53 New
    +6
    Kartveli installed the most powerful engine that the US industry could give. That is, the Pratt & Whitney XR-2800-21, which weighed 1068 kg “dry”, which produced 1850 hp at take-off.

    Just like our M-82, only the Bench weighed all 3 300 kg.
    It is worth saying that many designers could not properly resolve all issues related to turbochargers. Including our many engineers rescued.

    Ours couldn’t for sure - put a normal high-altitude compressor, and the Bench would play with new paints at a height of ....., and the M-82 engine already lacked air already above 3 m ....
    Because of its size, it was possible to install a propeller with a diameter of 47 meters on the R-4, without unpleasant consequences, which allowed the R-47 to achieve simply outstanding speeds at that time ....
    Like it or not, this is a very specific plane.
    1. Bersaglieri
      Bersaglieri 28 June 2020 16: 43 New
      +2
      On the La-5FN set- and "played." And then La-7.
    2. KERMET
      KERMET 28 June 2020 22: 19 New
      +2
      On engines I-185 with M-71 is more suitable for comparison than the Bench
  6. serg.shishkov2015
    serg.shishkov2015 28 June 2020 05: 56 New
    +2
    I came across a monograph on R-47 in the year 1992, and the propeller from him * Curtiss Electric * laid the foundation for the composition of my ex-libris! The plane is very interesting! And on the model that was sold with us about 30 years ago, there is a screw of the company * Hamilton Standard *
  7. Fitter65
    Fitter65 28 June 2020 06: 07 New
    19
    So the 255th IAKP became a regiment fully armed with the Thunderbolts.

    2 minutes of search.
    255 Navy Air Force Red Banner Fighter Aviation Regiment

    We read the stages of the life of the regiment, subordination, deployment, composition, what was armed with ...
    6. Thunderbolt (October 1944 - May 1945)
    29.10.1944 - one instance of the American Republic P47 Thunderbolt fighter was received, which passed military tests in the regiment.
    11.1944-12.1944 - the regiment was re-equipped with Thunderbolt aircraft, but until the end of the war they were not used, they were relocated to the air. Jagodnik near Arkhangelsk, where they were in the reserve of the Air Force of the SF.
    . you can see it yourself here http://ava.org.ru/iap/255m.htm
    It turns out that the data cited by the author
    ... shot down 153 enemy aircraft.
    Of these: Ju-88 - 3, Me-110 - 23, Me-109 - 88, FW-190 - 32, FW-189 - 2, He-115 - 2, BV-138 - 1.
    R-47 no side. All victories were won on the aircraft I-16, LaGG-3, Yak-1, Aerocobra. hi
    1. SASHA OLD
      SASHA OLD 29 June 2020 15: 41 New
      0
      Good point!
      Unfortunately, I read at work, in a smoking room - I can’t check with my hands ..)
      And thanks to you: it changes the picture of the "achievements" of the Thunderbolts in this IAP to a zero result
      1. Fitter65
        Fitter65 29 June 2020 15: 49 New
        +1
        Quote: SASHA OLD
        this, after all, changes the picture of the “achievements” of the Thunderbolts in this IAP to zero result

        So if you take any article by this author on aviation, without such mistakes, there is practically no one.
  8. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 28 June 2020 06: 16 New
    +1
    Good article. Thanks to the author. As before, I had never heard of an original solution with a turbocharger.
    I saw once a real Thunderbolt at an air show in Europe.
  9. mark1
    mark1 28 June 2020 07: 27 New
    +2
    A specific aircraft, which justified itself as a high-altitude escort fighter, could have appeared on the Eastern Front as a ground attack aircraft or a torpedo bomber (remove a TK with channels and other stray, install a single-speed monitoring station and hang 400 kg of "extra" armor, or a reserve of cargo for torpedoes). But the price !!! 87 thousand dollars, (correct if you lied) - only for Americans
    In my personal opinion, the linear placement of weapons in the nose of the aircraft, as in the Bf.109F, was more useful. One 20 mm cannon in the collapse of the block and two synchronous 7,92 mm machine guns.

    About the collapse, too much. Well, there was no collapse of the star-shaped engine, and 8 trunks around the motor would have stuck it quite tightly (even synchronizers with drives ...)
  10. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 28 June 2020 07: 39 New
    +7
    When you have such an engine ... 2000ls. you can build a lot of things.
  11. Eug
    Eug 28 June 2020 07: 51 New
    +8
    There is no maneuverable air combat at high altitudes, so the choice between maneuverability and altitude is not relevant. The composition of the weapon was also dictated - the target was fighters, for which 12,7 bullets could cause significant damage, rather than bombers, to "bite" which shells are needed. A model of rationality. Well, and the engine - as motorists say, put a good engine on the fence - and the fence will fly ...
    1. iouris
      iouris 28 June 2020 13: 23 New
      +1
      Quote: Eug
      At high altitude maneuverable air battles do not happen

      ... especially if enemy fighters do not fly at this altitude.
      1. SASHA OLD
        SASHA OLD 29 June 2020 15: 43 New
        +1
        And those that fly like sleepy flies due to a lack of oxygen
  12. Octopus
    Octopus 28 June 2020 08: 14 New
    25
    Well, Mr. Skomorokhov again did a great job. He added pictures and artistic details to the text from the airborne.

    The plane is really very peculiar. A good reflection of the American situation of those years.

    In the 30s, American aviation, like the rest of the armed forces, was in a deep intellectual crisis. Firstly, power was seized by duos, sincerely convinced that the only type of aircraft that has the right to exist is a strategic bomber. Although formally the department gene. Arnold was called the Air Force of the Army, for the needs of the boots, the shoes did not care much. The very idea of ​​interaction between the military branches caused them irritation. Secondly, and this is already a purely American problem, the notorious city children worked for Gen. Arnold, who believed that the buns grow on trees. In particular, they expected to see aircraft engines and aircraft weapons on trees. They did not expect any of their participation in the process of the appearance of these components.

    Events in Europe unexpectedly showed that fighters also have a right to exist. That was damn bad news. The army’s response was to order a machine that meets (externally) European standards — an in-line fighter. The result was P-40 and P-39. These aircraft had two main drawbacks:
    1. The only American JOE was Alison, an engine from a mid-20s airship.
    2. American firms had no idea how to calculate the strength of a fighter. As a result, gliders were built according to civil standards. American metal planes weighed like Soviet wooden ones.

    Well, the "little things." For example, it turned out that the only available aviation weapons were the Browning machine guns created during the WWII. Which not only were heavy by the standards of the 40s, they also did not like synchronizers, that is, their central location was undesirable.

    The result is second planes, American Hurricanes. Any collision of such airplanes with Messers meant beating.

    In the gene. Arnold began to burn under the chair.

    The answer was typically American. Specifications were issued for the revolutionary fighter with a pushing propeller and a promising JO under 3 thousand hp.
    The engine was a gate, a fighter with it. No attempt to rectify the situation (serial engine with such characteristics in principle there was, Saber, the task was to bring him to the States, it seems not so difficult), it was not undertaken, because it was not a noble matter to tinker with the pieces of iron.

    It burned harder and harder.

    Then the manufacturer of an army fighter of the late 30s, Ripablik, who remained behind the side of the new army competition, came up with a counter proposal: to cram the engine from the bomber into its old R-35, the most powerful of those available at that time. Generally speaking, there was no need for such an aircraft — less relaxed naval forces had long ordered a much more advanced design from Chance-Wurt — but the Army Air Force sincerely and mutually despised the fleet. So they did not break.

    Naturally, the double nine in the R-35 could not fit in any way. Cartwelli redesigned the plane, at the same time rebalancing it. He knew about the power of the duels and understood that the fighter of a long-range high-altitude escort would inevitably become the main fighter of the Air Force.

    Two major innovations.
    1. Turbocharger. Generally speaking, there was no need for it. The height of the engines of that time was provided by a mechanical supercharger, driven by the engine shaft, and not from exhaust gases. But a range is needed for an escort fighter, and a turbocharger provides better efficiency. So Cartvelli went on to complicate and make heavier (and more expensive) the aircraft. Was he right? God knows, the second American escort, no less distant, Mustang, has no turbocharger.
    2. Highly loaded wing. For a meter of the Tender’s wing, it accounted for more than 200 kg, for example, he exceeded Zero twice. This worsened takeoff and landing performance and maneuverability at low speeds, but dramatically improved aerodynamics - the drag of a huge aircraft is less than that of Messer. For long-distance flights, invaluable quality.

    On the one hand, this design approach led to the appearance of an air cruiser, which in its aerobatic characteristics resembled the IL-2 more than Spitfire. But on the other hand, the aircraft performed its narrow task at 100.
    The mention of the MiG in the context of comparison with the jag is simply ridiculous. Soviet aircraft could not even dream of such characteristics of vertical maneuverability. Their wood paneling began to deform at the dive speeds that the Americans achieved in horizontal flight. Come along with the bombers to the target, having an advantage in speed and altitude, collapse on poor Germans, who are forced to choose a position away from thousands of Battles of the battle box, climb the hill again - yes, Jag did it perfectly. He was born for such a fight.

    Jag crippled the economy. Mustang D was a little worse as an escort, but it cost one and a half times cheaper. So the new Mutangs began to slowly supplant Jagi. But here he was lucky again - Eisenhower still managed to push the 8VA and knock out tactical aircraft. Naturally, it turned out that tactical aviation did not have airplanes, so the strategists had to share their own. The retiring Jag suddenly turned out to be the ideal solution - a huge, heavy-lifting, with a long range (that is, a long standby time), with an overly durable glider (this is not only resistance to combat damage, but also the possibility of dive bombing), with the very ski , which protected against shooting from below, no worse than the Il-2 armored vehicle - literally all the oddities and flaws of Ripablik were at the box office. Lucky so lucky.
    1. PilotS37
      PilotS37 29 June 2020 16: 10 New
      +1
      Bravo,Octopus!
      Very grammatically laid out everything!
      1. Octopus
        Octopus 29 June 2020 16: 32 New
        +2
        Quote: PilotS37
        Very grammatically laid out everything

        A remark should be made.

        The above is fiction, so to speak, Dumas the father, sorry for immodesty. This cannot be taken as a real story. In practice, all the actors acted much more chaotically and inconsistently. The same contest of the 39th year for the failed XP-54 was not a response to Hawk's secondary nature, secondaryity was not yet sufficiently understood. But the actual canvas is set out close to real.
        1. PilotS37
          PilotS37 29 June 2020 16: 41 New
          +1
          Quote: Octopus
          The above is fiction, so to speak,

          Yes, I’m talking more about technology: what the generals think about, the soldier does not know (and never will), but why it turned out what happened, it’s just important to understand.
  13. Zeev
    Zeev zeev 28 June 2020 08: 16 New
    13

    But Carlson is a separate phenomenon. They say that the idea of ​​a flying freeloader and a thief to Mrs. Lindgren was thrown by one of the publishers, a Russian emigrant.

    According to the recollections of Lingren herself, she wrote off the image of Carlson from one pilot who was visiting the family of her parents. Hermann Goering.

    And here, oddly enough, they helped ... the Russians! And this is the moment in the history of the US Air Force that cannot be undone or painted over.

    Well, I doubt very much that Kartveli was Russian, even though he was born in the Russian Empire. You do not call Russian Alfred Rosenberg, one of the main ideologists of Nazi Germany, although he, too, was a native of the Russian Empire (Revel-Tallinn), graduated from the Russian gymnasium and loved Dostoevsky very much. By the way, the Americans never hid and are hiding the origin of the people who made a significant contribution to the development of the United States. On the contrary, they are very proud that their country is so attractive to smart people. Therefore, the Americans emphasize that Graham Alexander Bell is a Scotsman, Zvorykin and Sikorsky are Russians, and Elon Musk is a South African.

    But the war, which began in Europe, showed that the supporters of the light fighter, which included Kartveli, turned out to be untenable.

    The war that began in Europe showed that the idea of ​​a light fighter, of which Kartveli was a supporter, was not so untenable, just the concept of "light" was "heavier" by about half a ton. The validity of the concept was also confirmed by the events of the initial period of the war in the Pacific Ocean, where the lungs of the Zero became the “kings of the sky”.
    1. iouris
      iouris 28 June 2020 19: 21 New
      -1
      Quote: ZeevZeev
      and Elon Musk is a South African

      ... or an African. It is still unclear how he contributed. A dark horse. By the way, we also have Rogozin.
      1. PilotS37
        PilotS37 29 June 2020 16: 13 New
        +1
        They call themselves "Afrikaners" and burn in Afrikaans - a Dutch dialect.
    2. gsev
      gsev 3 July 2020 23: 37 New
      +2
      Quote: ZeevZeev
      According to the recollections of Lingren herself, she wrote off the image of Carlson from one pilot who was visiting the family of her parents. Hermann Goering.

      And how does this correspond to the truth? Lindgren's book was published in 1955. At that time, Nazism greatly discredited itself. In the 20s, the future writer experienced great everyday difficulties, and in my opinion she was far from Goering and Nazism. Her books declare the freedom of the common man from the state and condom authority. It is known that she was not an admirer of Stalinist communism, but this is no reason to accuse her of worshiping Nazism. For some reason, I thought that Carlson’s identification with Goering was born in the 1990s, when a bias towards Barkashovites and cultured Nazis such as Speer or Leni Riefenstahl was outlined in Russia as a counterweight to the revival of the Communists. Is there evidence of close acquaintance between Lindgren and Goering in Western sources or non-Russian sources? Or her written sympathies for Nazism since the end of the war. In general, Churchill also enthusiastically spoke about Musolini's successes in the colonization of Ethiopia, but no one considers him a fascist.
      1. Octopus
        Octopus 4 July 2020 08: 23 New
        +3
        Quote: gsev
        And how does this correspond to the truth?

        Quote: gsev
        sources of evidence of close acquaintance of Lindgren and Goering? Or her written sympathies for Nazism since the end of the war.

        Something good people completely beguiled the coast. Regardless of the real acquaintance of Goering and Lindgren, from what oak did the fact of meeting Goering and Hitler in the mid-20s become “sympathies for Nazism”? Hitler of the 20s is conditional Eduard Limonov, a weird little guy on his head, a politician from the pub, where he acts instead of stand-up comedians.

        Don't underestimate stand-up comedians.
        Quote: gsev
        Or her written sympathies

        It is strange that now we have to be for Germany. It will be difficult to be on the side of Germany and against Russia and on the side of England against Germany.

        In order to hate the USSR, it is not necessary to be a Nazi. Sweden is a non-combatant ally of Finland and the Baltic states.
        We collect sugar for Norway and Finland, save on our rations. In this situation, we can be envied that we can provide assistance. We also have sponsored children in Finland and Norway, to whom we transfer 30 kroons per month. Oh, so many people who need help!

        At half past four in the morning, German troops crossed the Russian border ... So, the former allies are fighting each other, and poor Finland is on fire again.

        This again applies to Finland. The Russians again bombed Finland - Obu / Turku was bombed terribly, seriously damaged the castle. Hungary announced that it is at war with Russia ... The Baltic states are being freed - in any case, the Russians have left Lithuania.

        National Socialism and Bolshevism are roughly like two dinosaurs clutching each other. It is unpleasant to be on the side of one of the dinosaurs, but at this moment there is nothing left but to want the Soviets to be squeezed, as it should, after they have gotten themselves so much in this war, and for all the evil done to Finland. In England and America they must now stand on the side of Bolshevism — this should be even more difficult, and it’s difficult for a man in the street, an average man, to keep track of all the turns. Queen of the Netherlands Wilhelmina said on the radio that she was ready to support Russia, but made a reservation that she still did not like the principles of Bolshevism.


        PS The most awesome place in Lindgren's diaries.

        16 June

        Today, our old king is 83 years old (King Gustav V, the grandfather of the current King of Sweden, Charles XVI Gustav, - approx. Ed.). May he survive this war. I am scared and sad this evening, as warm and humid as the event days of last summer were. And now, something seems to be happening. The discord between Germany and Russia. Evening newspapers wrote on general mobilization in Russia. Germany had long ago deployed powerful troops near the eastern border, and over the past week had transferred a mass of people to Finland. This transfer caused such concern in Gotland. If a war begins between Russia on the one hand, and on the other - Germany and Finland, we will be in a terrible situation.


        JUNE 16 !!!

        The treacherous attack on peaceful airfields, oh my god!
        1. gsev
          gsev 4 July 2020 13: 23 New
          0
          Quote: Octopus
          Something good people completely beguiled the coast.

          I have met Lindgren's accusations of sympathy with Nazism and elsewhere. I am interested in the source of such accusations. Sweden belongs to German culture and it is well known that in the Swedish society there were then pro-German and pro-Nazi influential forces. However, Sweden developed towards democracy and leftist ideas. In Sweden, there was a course that someone called Swedish socialism, someone the policy of Olof Palme, incidentally killed in mysterious circumstances. In Russia in the 1990s, many did not want convergence to the Swedish model. Perhaps this is the reason that charges are being brought against Swedish writers who made life in Sweden less Puritan. Maybe it's just a black PR biographical book about Lindgren. If you relate to the quotes you quoted Lindgren, they show her anti-war views. Generally published diaries in 2015 are considered anti-Nazi. Nevertheless, Kolomoisky’s funding of Ukrainian neo-Nazis did not prevent him from becoming a popular Jewish figure, and Carlson with a propeller caused a charge of Nazism.
          1. Octopus
            Octopus 4 July 2020 14: 27 New
            +5
            We arrived from Carlson and the P-47 to the Ukrainian junta. Everything is finite.
  14. Tank jacket
    Tank jacket 28 June 2020 08: 45 New
    +6
    Assembled a model of this fighter. Thanks to the author for an interesting article.
    1. Alf
      Alf 29 June 2020 19: 15 New
      +3
      Quote: Tank jacket
      Assembled a model of this fighter. Thanks to the author for an interesting article.

      My two Bolts, both Academic.


      It is impossible to look at ours, NOVO, without tears and a mat.
      1. Tank jacket
        Tank jacket 29 June 2020 19: 23 New
        0
        Superb designs, especially color, wow good
        1. Alf
          Alf 29 June 2020 19: 25 New
          +2
          Quote: Tank jacket
          Superb designs, especially color, wow good

          I don’t want to bend my fingers like a fan, but you will laugh-paint-native nitruha, and airbrush-a simple Belarusian. Decks, however, Traverse.
          1. Alf
            Alf 29 June 2020 19: 27 New
            +2
            If you look tomorrow, I will post a picture of the progenitor-Seversky P-35.
            1. Tank jacket
              Tank jacket 29 June 2020 19: 29 New
              0
              I’ll definitely drop by.
              1. Alf
                Alf 30 June 2020 19: 48 New
                +2
                Quote: Tank jacket
                I’ll definitely drop by.

                As promised.

                Long searched for the P-43 Lancer. When I found and found out how much it was, I remembered the old adage - Add another hundred rubles and buy a real one. Not pulled.
                1. Tank jacket
                  Tank jacket 30 June 2020 20: 51 New
                  0
                  Greetings, it is so interesting to look at it ... Beautiful Ulan. drinks And the bird on the side is interesting.
                  1. Alf
                    Alf 30 June 2020 20: 52 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Tank jacket
                    Greetings, it is so interesting to look at it ... Beautiful Ulan. drinks And the bird on the side is interesting.

                    Why is Ulan?
                    Bird-17th Squadron, Philippines, 40th year, Major Wagner.
                    1. Tank jacket
                      Tank jacket 30 June 2020 20: 53 New
                      0
                      Lancer is Ulan.
                      1. Alf
                        Alf 30 June 2020 20: 54 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Tank jacket
                        Lancer is Ulan.

                        Yes it is. But! Ulan is the P-43 Lancer, and I showed the P-35.
                    2. Tank jacket
                      Tank jacket 30 June 2020 20: 54 New
                      0
                      Well, like a Hussar with a lance ... Lancer.
                      1. Tank jacket
                        Tank jacket 30 June 2020 20: 56 New
                        0
                        So I'm confused ... Still a beautiful car. Thank you for the pictures good
                      2. Alf
                        Alf 30 June 2020 22: 02 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Tank jacket
                        So I'm confused ... Still a beautiful car. Thank you for the pictures good

                        Yes, not at all, I still have ..
  • Eskobar
    Eskobar 28 June 2020 09: 18 New
    +2
    So, frames decide everything. How many of our talented people worked for the benefit of other states.
    1. tlauicol
      tlauicol 28 June 2020 09: 34 New
      +4
      Quote: Eskobar
      So, frames decide everything. How many of our talented people worked for the benefit of other states.

      Well, how can I say .. In the USSR, without a turbocharger, engine, aluminum, propeller, etc. etc. they would not create a good car
      1. Eskobar
        Eskobar 28 June 2020 09: 57 New
        -1
        As I understood from the article, our Air Force had a turbocharger, but Kartveli used the idea of ​​cooling the exhaust by transferring it to the tail. Well, we would have bomb sights before everyone else [quote] [/ quote]
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 28 June 2020 11: 28 New
          +3
          Well, we would have bomb sights before everyone else

          That is unlikely. Norden did course bomb sights back in World War I.
  • Sahalinets
    Sahalinets 28 June 2020 09: 20 New
    +5
    As for the Ispano guns, a ridiculous story happened to them. When translating dimensions into an inch system, a mistake was made and the guns simply did not work as they should. Aranov described this in detail.
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 28 June 2020 10: 23 New
      +3
      The British also had an imperial system, and everything worked for them as they should. There was generally an absurd story: the Americans, as in the case of Bofors and Oerlikon, began to remake the gun under their technological processes, at the same time changing the sleeve. But unlike Beaufors and Oerlikon, they did it so badly that the gun simply stopped shooting.
      1. Sahalinets
        Sahalinets 28 June 2020 10: 33 New
        +6
        Not really. They confused the chamber length and it was very difficult to fix.
  • demiurg
    demiurg 28 June 2020 09: 23 New
    +7
    At 7-8-9 kilometers, the bolt was not equal. They like to show climb near the ground, as well as turn time.
    And at 8 kilometers Fock and Messer crawled like cows on ice, merging a vertical jug maneuver. You can’t cram the unbearable, make a fighter that is equally good at 2 and 9 km.
    By the way, it may very well be that for the first time the speed of sound overcame the R-47 in diving.
    On the eastern front, the car is devoid of meaning, but on the western very.
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 28 June 2020 10: 28 New
      +6
      Quote: demiurg
      On the eastern front, the machine is meaningless

      As a fighter, yes, but as a strike aircraft, Jag was beautiful, although he was not.

      When the Americans marched across France and Germany, Jagi flew to their tank divisions in the morning and escorted until the evening, providing reconnaissance and support all day. This was far beyond the capabilities of the same IL-2 with its range.

      As a dive player, Jag corresponded to the Pawn both in terms of load and dive angle. As a ground attack aircraft clearly superior to the IL-2.

      Another thing is that such a luxury was not affordable for the Red Army. And from the point of view of money, and from the point of view of the work of aircraft managers in divisions, and from the point of view of sky control.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 28 June 2020 11: 17 New
        -2
        As a dive player, Jag corresponded to the Pawn both in terms of load and dive angle. As a ground attack aircraft clearly superior to the IL-2.

        It remains to say B and compare with the typhoon. Then the Yankees idiocy will look a little different
        1. Octopus
          Octopus 28 June 2020 11: 48 New
          -1
          Quote: Engineer
          Then the Yankees idiocy will look a little different

          You are right, in aviation the Yankees' idiocy is even more noticeable than in the Navy. Dont know about the best fighter in America and the best engine in America (both are English laughing ), screw up weapons (English laughing ), left with the trunks, commissioned by the old man Pershing, - I don’t even remember such a trick for the navy.

          This I’m not talking about the incredible shame with Packard-Merlin, but specifically the impressive performance of old Ford, who, in order to grab his small gesheft, left his country without a better engine of the time. Well, in fact I didn’t leave, but I tried.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 28 June 2020 11: 52 New
            0
            I heard all this.
            But the epic saga of giving the right typhoon a stupid decadent wretched pitcher yet.
            1. Octopus
              Octopus 28 June 2020 11: 53 New
              -1
              Quote: Engineer
              the epic saga of giving the right typhoon a stupid decadent wretched pitcher is not yet there.

              )))
              For some reason, the Hawker company didn’t really get airplanes. How it happened - God knows. laughing
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 28 June 2020 11: 59 New
                +1
                Oh god, how is this possible?
                Will I finally hear who is the best WWII attack aircraft?
                1. Octopus
                  Octopus 28 June 2020 13: 23 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Engineer
                  Will I finally hear who is the best WWII attack aircraft?

                  I won’t be alive wassat

                  Firstly, you forget that the concept of stupid Americans postulates compensation for stupidity with industrial power. I can praise Implacable as much as I like, but that will not change the fact that there were two, not 24. There are also Thunder, we see Yak-9DD of rich people.

                  Second, the
                  The best WWII attack aircraft at the beginning of the war was Beaufighter, at the end of the war - A-26, after the war - Skyrider, the best flying one - probably A-41 or the development of A-38 with armor.

                  It is easy to notice that the naval, which were simply stupid, came to Skyrider in a natural way, but the army did not allow this. They were radical pacifists, sought in the name of world peace to destroy more American soldiers. In fulfillment of this task, they didn’t even make Thunder, but Mustang, who took an honorable second place in terms of the number of lost after the Corsair.
                  1. Engineer
                    Engineer 28 June 2020 14: 18 New
                    +1
                    And what about the idea that the best attack aircraft is a suitable information security?
                    In your paradigm heresy, but nonetheless.

                    I won’t be alive

                    I repeat that for you in hell a separate boiler
                    Between Roosevelt and uncle Joe
                    1. Octopus
                      Octopus 28 June 2020 17: 27 New
                      -2
                      Quote: Engineer
                      And what about the idea that the best attack aircraft is a suitable information security?

                      No, that’s not so. And then you really will be right))).

                      But seriously, the assault PV is derived from such logic. As we know, the R-47 was not made from this logic. It was not made out of any logic, except how to push an expensive aircraft to a completely headless customer.

                      And the best attack aircraft, as I already wrote, is a skyrider, a superskyrider or something twin-engine. Not a high-altitude long-range fighter, not at all.
                      1. fighter angel
                        fighter angel 30 June 2020 16: 17 New
                        -1
                        octopus.
                        "The best attack aircraft, as I already wrote, is a skyrider, a superskyrider or something twin-engine ..."

                        It’s hard to come up with more nonsense.
                        The “recession” was only suitable for shelling unarmed Viet Cong soldiers in the jungle.
                        Unprotected from fire from the ground, non-living machine.
                        It was successful until adequate air defense appeared.
                        With her appearance, he began to suffer unjustified losses.
                        Shamefully included in the top five Amer aircraft, which suffered the largest losses in Vietnam.
                      2. fighter angel
                        fighter angel 15 July 2020 15: 00 New
                        0
                        octopus.
                        In dogonku.
                        "... And the best attack aircraft, as I already wrote, is a sky rider, a super sky rider or something twin-engine ..."

                        Here is a fact for you.
                        They tried to use something “twin-engine”, called A-20Zh, “Douglas-Boston”, as the attack aircraft and dive bomber, or more simply - in the Front Aviation, the Soviet Air Force. Immediately after their arrival to us, in the USSR. They were handed over for trial to some aviation regiments. It turned out that this "something twin-engine" does not withstand even 2.5-3 times overloads! And it bursts at the seams when performing even the simplest, most energetic maneuvers. FOR BOMBETING AND ATTACKS FROM DIVING - A-20ZH turned out to be completely unsuitable, for the reason of the ridiculously small margin of safety laid down in the DESIGN! The front-line aircraft was built according to the strength standards of a civil airliner! You can find these data in the ZhBD of the Polbinsky Guards BAP.
                        Also in the book Zheludeva "Steel Squadron" - the same is written in the simplest working-peasant language.
                        And that's why the entire Douglas-Boston print run was sent to naval aviation, to the top mast. The overloads there are not the same: they came out at speed, did an anti-aircraft maneuver, and if they didn’t shoot down, they didn’t knock out the “hotel”, and also fell down at speed.
                        So your "something twin-engine" is NOT a STORMMOUNDER. And a very insignificant number of them were used as night fighters, and to block airfields they went in the area of ​​the long-distance drive, where they wouldn’t finish anti-aircraft guns, and “pecked” them just taking off. There were only one or two regiments.
      2. demiurg
        demiurg 28 June 2020 12: 18 New
        +5
        Quote: Octopus
        Quote: demiurg
        On the eastern front, the machine is meaningless

        As a fighter, yes, but as a strike aircraft, Jag was beautiful, although he was not.

        When the Americans marched across France and Germany, Jagi flew to their tank divisions in the morning and escorted until the evening, providing reconnaissance and support all day. This was far beyond the capabilities of the same IL-2 with its range.

        As a dive player, Jag corresponded to the Pawn both in terms of load and dive angle. As a ground attack aircraft clearly superior to the IL-2.

        Another thing is that such a luxury was not affordable for the Red Army. And from the point of view of money, and from the point of view of the work of aircraft managers in divisions, and from the point of view of sky control.


        The bolt could not dive at the ground from the word at all.
        Firstly there are no brake grids, secondly there is no ice maneuverability near the ground. There was no bomb sight and visibility forward and down.
        And as an analogue of IL-2, it will not pass. He will not be able to crawl on zeros along the front lines and seek out targets. With minimal air defense, the bolt is crushed very quickly.
        Maximum sudden raid in one go, until the air defense woke up.
        And the control of the sky is also niocin, to start the battle with enemy fighters being on the zeros, and even with suspensions. Given the "excellent" performance characteristics of the bolt near the ground, he could not even escape from any Luftwaffe fighter.

        The possibility of suspension of bombs was removed in later shops and yaks, because the effectiveness of such bomb strikes tended to zero.
        1. Octopus
          Octopus 28 June 2020 13: 07 New
          -1
          Quote: demiurg
          The possibility of suspension of bombs was removed in later shops and yaks, because the effectiveness of such bomb strikes tended to zero.

          On yaks and benches - yes, of course.
          Quote: demiurg
          And the control of the sky is also niocin,

          Other cars were in control of the sky.
          Quote: demiurg
          Given the "excellent" performance characteristics of the bolt near the ground, he could not even escape from any Luftwaffe fighter.

          The bolt near the ground was in any case faster than any strike aircraft.
          Quote: demiurg
          With minimal air defense, the bolt is crushed very quickly.
          Maximum sudden raid in one go, until the air defense woke up.

          In reality, information security systems were engaged in object-based air defense, clearing it before a horizontal attack.
          Quote: demiurg
          He will not be able to crawl on zeros along the front lines and seek out targets.

          This is very funny, but in reality he did just that, unlike the IL-2, which had no fuel for such work.
          Quote: demiurg
          The bolt could not dive at the ground from the word at all.
          Firstly there are no brake grills, secondly there is no ice maneuverability near the ground

          This is in your theoretical world. In reality, when describing battles in the West, dive P-47.
      3. fighter angel
        fighter angel 30 June 2020 16: 03 New
        +1
        octopus.
        A fighter-bomber, in this case, Tad, will definitely not surpass the “pure” Sturmovik (IL-2) in actions to support the ground forces.
        It is absolutely wrong, unprofessional and incorrect to compare a specialized aircraft of the battlefield Il-2, and a high-altitude escort fighter R-47, compelled to be transferred to fighter-bomber aircraft.
        Read and learn Air Force tactics. Sections "Assault Aviation" and "Fighter-Bomber Aviation".
    2. Engineer
      Engineer 28 June 2020 11: 19 New
      -1
      You can still recall the excellent speed of the jag roll. Even better than the recognized standard, Focke-Wulf.
      1. fighter angel
        fighter angel 30 June 2020 16: 22 New
        0
        Fock here is absolutely not a standard.
        I-16 Polikarpova.
        Yes, and the Yak-1B, Yak-3, La-7 - absolutely no worse in angular roll speed.
    3. SASHA OLD
      SASHA OLD 29 June 2020 15: 53 New
      0
      I don’t remember where, but I read that the Italian FolgeOre for the first time overcame the speed of sound at its peak.
      How true - alas, I can’t judge
  • Gato
    Gato 28 June 2020 10: 00 New
    +9
    The British pilots had such an anecdote (with British humor): “Thunderbolt pilot can easily avoid anti-aircraft fire. You have to run back and forth inside the plane, and they will never get into you. ”

    The Americans had their own sense of humor: "If Messerschmitt attacks you from behind, hide behind your armored back and wait until he runs out of ammunition."

    Thanks for the article, very very hi
  • Andrey VOV
    Andrey VOV 28 June 2020 10: 10 New
    +1
    These are your materials, Roman, I like it, a great article !!
  • silberwolf88
    silberwolf88 28 June 2020 10: 53 New
    +3
    The plane occupied its niche and there is nothing to add ... I liked the article ...
    And HERE ABOUT CARLSON))) ... there is a completely truthful version that Astrid described German Goering as a World War I hero ... he liked to speculate about his moderation))) and said that he needed nothing except a good motor in the air. ..
  • Undecim
    Undecim 28 June 2020 13: 51 New
    +7
    To begin with, as I said, a Pratt & Whitney XR-2800-21 engine was installed on the plane, which produced 1850 hp on take-off. Then the serial Pratt & Whitney R-2800-17 take-off power of 1960 hp went into action.
    The Pratt & Whitney R-2800-17 engine did not exist in nature. After Pratt & Whitney 2800-21, P-2800-63, P-2800-59, P-2800-57, P-2800-73 or -77 were installed.
    Exhaust gases were sent to the tail through the pipeline. The pipeline weighed fairly, BUT: while the gases went to the compressor, they COOLED !!! That is, Kartveli solved this first problem, the problem of overheating of the fuel cell. Funny, but the TC really stopped crashing from overheating.

    Kartveli placed the turbocharger “in the tail” not to cool the exhaust gases, as they lose energy when cooled. He placed the turbocharger “in the tail” because, “in the nose,” he simply did not fit.
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 28 June 2020 14: 17 New
      +1
      Gosha. I didn’t know that the boost system with the intercooler was so huge, thanks.
  • BAI
    BAI 28 June 2020 15: 10 New
    0
    The LCD display on the photo of the cabin equipment is very embarrassing.
  • pro100y.belarus
    pro100y.belarus 28 June 2020 15: 39 New
    -2
    I do not understand the author’s admiration for this car. Too big, too complicated, too expensive.
    Fighting on it - it’s the same as on the “Lincoln” spinning around the yards full of cars, spreading pizza. But the main task in the war is to "deliver pizza to yards", and not to comfortably fly on the highway, overtaking everyone.
    In addition, he appeared on the theater at the end of the war without any real opposition to the Luftwaffe. I would have looked at him in the forty-first year in the sky of Moscow. I think only fluff and feathers would fly from this plane.
    1. bubalik
      bubalik 28 June 2020 17: 19 New
      +3
      no real resistance to the luftwaffe

      I would have looked at him in the forty-first year in the sky of Moscow. I think only fluff and feathers would fly from this plane.

      ,,, the P-47 made its debut in battle in April 1943 when the Thunderbolt of the 4th US Army fighter group shot down the Focke Wulfe FW-190 over France.
      Over the next two years, planes will fly over half a million sorties in Europe and the Pacific and destroy nearly 4000 enemy aircraft, 9000 trains, 86 trucks and 000 pieces of armored vehicles.
    2. Octopus
      Octopus 28 June 2020 17: 49 New
      +2
      Quote: pro100y.belarus
      Too big, too complicated, too expensive.

      Looking for someone "too." It produced 15+ thousand vehicles, almost as many as the Yak-9 of all models, and much more than any other Soviet fighter.
      Quote: pro100y.belarus
      he appeared on the theater at the end of the war without any real opposition to the Luftwaffe.

      You will be very surprised, but real confrontation of the luftwaffe it was this plane in the Reich air defense that it had. Nothing like this confrontation it has never been in the East.
      Quote: pro100y.belarus
      I would have looked at him in the forty-first year in the sky of Moscow.

      In an alternative reality, where the USSR in 41 can build such aircraft, the Luftwaffe will never fall into the skies of Moscow, this is simply ridiculous.
      1. pro100y.belarus
        pro100y.belarus 28 June 2020 19: 09 New
        -1
        Quote: Octopus

        You will be greatly surprised, but the real opposition of the Luftwaffe was precisely this aircraft in the Reich air defense. There has never been anything like this confrontation in the East.

        Come on. At the end of 1944 in France, the Thunderbolts had no choice but to hunt for cars and trains. All the forces of the Luftwaffe were thrown at repelling air raids on Germany and plugging holes on the Eastern Front. And machine guns are against weapons - so-so weapons.
        He was not in such "meat grinders" as Stalingrad, Kuban, Kursk, but these were decisive battles of the Second World War, after which Germany suffered huge losses of human and material resources and was no longer able to conduct large-scale offensive operations.
        You can calmly sit in a warm room behind a kulman and think - where to put a turbocharger, hoping to sell this "miracle" to the Ministry of Defense and make money on it.
        Or you can sculpt a new engine in the cold, purged workshop by peeling your fingers off the old fuselage, undergo state tests in five days and launch the aircraft in a series called La-5 without enough time, money or materials .
        My opinion - R-47 is a “pregnant cow” flying in a straight line. It does not represent any real value for military operations.
        1. Octopus
          Octopus 28 June 2020 19: 54 New
          +5
          Quote: pro100y.belarus
          All the forces of the Luftwaffe were thrown to repel air raids on Germany

          Yes? Very interesting. It would seem, what does the R-47 have to do with it?

          The first two American aces in Europe, Gabreski and Johnson, flew precisely on the thunder to Germany. In the piggy bank of knowledge. More of them were stuffed only in the Pacific Ocean.
          Quote: pro100y.belarus
          gagging on the eastern front

          Backlash never had a problem in the East until the fuel ran out.
          Quote: pro100y.belarus
          And machine guns are against weapons - so-so weapons.

          But Nurses are normal.
          Quote: pro100y.belarus
          He was not in such "meat grinders" as Stalingrad, Kuban, Kursk, but these were decisive battles of the Second World War

          Aviation in these battles participated mainly in Soviet memoirs.
          Quote: pro100y.belarus
          Or you can sculpt a new engine in the cold, purged workshop by peeling your fingers off the old fuselage, undergo state tests in five days and launch the aircraft in a series called La-5 without enough time, money or materials .

          Can. But if you heroically make airplanes from shit and sticks, they don’t get better from this.
          Quote: pro100y.belarus
          It does not represent any real value for military operations.

          How did you go about the main fighter of the unconditionally strongest WWII aviation. Oh well.
          1. pro100y.belarus
            pro100y.belarus 28 June 2020 20: 33 New
            0
            Quote: Octopus

            Can. But if you heroically make airplanes from shit and sticks, they don’t get better from this.

            Kozhedub rolled over in the grave.
            Surely he would not have shot down so many “experts” of the Luftwaffe, flying on the P-47.
            He flew only on the "go ... not" with sticks.
            And by this, in your words, “th ... and with sticks” 64 Aryans were insulted.
            I do not think that there is an American flying on the R-47 with such an account.
            In general, bickering with Bandera trolls is not included in my plans. I just expressed my personal opinion, and on yours I spit from a large hill.
            1. Octopus
              Octopus 28 June 2020 20: 52 New
              +1
              Quote: pro100y.belarus
              Kozhedub rolled over in the grave.

              1. He would hardly have fought worse on a decent plane.
              2. The USSR did not make airplanes for Kozhedub, but for pilots below the average, which La did not suit absolutely.
              Quote: pro100y.belarus
              Surely he would not have shot down so many “experts” of the Luftwaffe, flying on the P-47.

              Quote: pro100y.belarus
              I do not think that there is an American flying on the R-47 with such an account.

              Naturally, free hunting was not very suitable for Americans in Europe. This is in addition to their rule to recall the most effective pilots as instructors.
              Quote: pro100y.belarus
              bruised 64 Aryans.

              Stated.
              Quote: pro100y.belarus
              an American flying a P-47 with that score.

              But you and Kozhedub are suitable for Youutilainen and Wind. Both said more than Kozhedub, both won half of the victories on the Brewsters, who by American standards are not planes at all, even in the 41st year.
              Quote: pro100y.belarus
              Generally bickering with bandera trolls

              You would have to cure your nerves.
            2. Octopus
              Octopus 28 June 2020 21: 05 New
              +1
              PS
              Quote: pro100y.belarus
              Or you can sculpt a new engine in the cold, purged workshop by peeling your fingers off the old fuselage, undergo state tests in five days and launch the aircraft in a series called La-5 without enough time, money or materials .

              In a country with a reasonably organized aviation industry, I-5 / M-185 was supposed to be in place of La-82 without any heroism.
              In a country with an even more reasonably organized industry, there would be no fighters except Yakovlev, M-82 would go to attack aircraft and front-line bombers, and Mikulin - to bombers, if at all needed.
              1. pro100y.belarus
                pro100y.belarus 28 June 2020 21: 23 New
                +2
                With your mind and sagacity would please at that time, would raise the aircraft industry in the USSR.
                Scribble "smart" comments - do not roll bags.
                1. Octopus
                  Octopus 28 June 2020 21: 37 New
                  +1
                  Quote: pro100y.belarus
                  Scribble "smart" comments - do not roll bags.

                  Quote: pro100y.belarus
                  You can calmly sit in a warm room behind a kulman and think - where to put a turbocharger, hoping to sell this "miracle" to the Ministry of Defense and make money on it.

                  Ah, well, that is, it’s my fault now that in the 40th year Shakhurin produced 5 fighter models on three engines simultaneously, when the Germans produced only one, but the Me-109.

                  Well, well.
                  1. Viktor Sergeev
                    Viktor Sergeev 30 June 2020 07: 40 New
                    +1
                    Well, what did it lead to next? Moreover, Messer has exhausted itself, and several magnificent aircraft were born in the USSR at once: Yak3,9, La 5,7. By the way, have you forgotten about Fokker?
                    1. Octopus
                      Octopus 30 June 2020 08: 41 New
                      +3
                      Quote: Victor Sergeev
                      Moreover, Messer has exhausted itself, and several magnificent aircraft were born in the USSR at once: Yak3,9, La 5,7.

                      Sorry, but you should pay less attention to Soviet memoirs. None of these Messer airplanes is even and close. The Yak-9 is generally a masterpiece, of course, a fighter that cannot catch up with the A-26 attack aircraft.
                      Try to protect the Reich sky from Spaats with any of these aircraft.
                      Quote: Victor Sergeev
                      By the way, have you forgotten about Fokker?

                      In the 40th year, the 190th is not issued if you are talking about it. And they didn’t attach a strange engine to Fock with ragged fingers, it was created for a reasonable concept and turned out to be much better than what was required of it. One of the best warplanes. If the Americans had brains, then the P-40 would become just that.
                      1. Viktor Sergeev
                        Viktor Sergeev 30 June 2020 12: 44 New
                        +2
                        Well then, refer to the memoirs of German pilots, they are all so honest.
                        La7, Yak3,9 at altitudes up to 5000 meters they hit a messer, if he got into a fight, the messer turned to a high-speed iron by the end of the war. Messer became obsolete after F, a very tender machine that did not have a significant reserve for modernization.
                        Here the FW190 is really the best aircraft in Germany, a real soldier, only after 1943 it was beaten by ours up to 5000 and Americans with the British above 7000 meters, that is, at the heights of real battles. By the way, in a maneuvering battle, the Messer was better.
                        But you can confidently say that the Germans won in the Second World War, because they had the best planes and aces, they destroyed our hundreds, even when Soviet planes did not fly at all, you can. Although tell a tale that won by number, littered with corpses.
                      2. Octopus
                        Octopus 30 June 2020 18: 55 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        if he got into a fight, messer turned to the end of the war in a high-speed iron

                        If Messer got into a fight, that is, a battle on the horizontal, then this meant that a poorly trained pilot was sitting in it. Yes, by the end of the war there were quite a few of them, which made the results of the Red Army not so bad as in the first years.
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        Messer became obsolete after F, a very tender machine that did not have a significant reserve for modernization.

                        Everything was fine with his modernization, but the Germans could not accelerate the engine like the British did. And in the compressor part, and especially in the part of 130 octane.

                        But he had two problems, a narrow chassis and a small gas tank. However, the PTB realized he quickly. The rest is an optimally made aircraft, it is better to sleep in terms of layout and armament scheme.

                        By the way, the Yak-9 empty weighs like Gustav, and the Yak-3 is not much less.
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        Here is the FW190 Germany’s really best plane, a real soldier

                        The 190th was made as a front-line fighter, but turned out to be a high-altitude air defense fighter and attack aircraft. Similar to the P-47, and also unexpectedly.
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        By the way, in a maneuvering battle, the Messer was better.

                        A competent pilot should not allow maneuverable combat. The best boom bucket definitely beats the best tinker. See the massacre that the Americans staged Zero in the 42nd. They arranged twin-engine lightings first of all, in general, never about maneuverability.
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        The Germans won the Second World War, because they had the best planes and aces, they destroyed our hundreds, even when Soviet planes did not fly at all

                        And how does it line up with you?

                        Yes, they were better, no, they didn’t win. War cannot be won by aviation alone; the Americans have experimentally proven this several times.
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        tell a fairy tale that you won by number, filled up with corpses.

                        Heaped up something, but about the victory a long conversation.

                        And you all this for what? Does this make the situation different for the characteristics of the Yak-9, Spit, Me109 and R-47 (the most popular aircraft are listed)?
                      3. Viktor Sergeev
                        Viktor Sergeev 30 June 2020 21: 49 New
                        +1
                        And now, by the order:
                        The fighter accompanying the bombers was forced to get involved in a dog landfill and here the messer showed all its flaws, especially if the pilots were average. No one needs hunters if you lose. The main thing for the German fighter after 1943: escorting their own and disrupting the bombing. According to the Germans, to their infantrymen: while you are increasing the scores, Ily drive us into the ground.
                        With upgrades after F, the Messer became heavy, with poor aerodynamics, speed increased, and maneuverability disappeared.
                        Yes, the Yak9 weighed like a messer, but aerodynamics were better. Yak 3 is easier by half a ton, which allows you to do anything with Messer.
                        Maneuverable combat is very important. If you accompany stormtroopers or bombers, then nobody needs your speed, horizontal maneuverability is important: quickly turn around and in the forehead. If you disrupt the attack of enemy bombers you must maneuver between them, get away from escort fighters.
                        German aces often simply went behind and finished off the laggards, lined, or simply engaged in hunting, for which Messer (after G) is good, but this is the way to defeat in the war.
                        The whole trouble of the Japanese on Zero is that the plane is out of date, low speed (at the time of the massacre), one bullet and they were shot down, and the pilots are weak, plus the fight was a fighter against a fighter and here speed was everything. In the Second World War, this is a rarity (Battle of the Kuban).
                        Well, and the last: according to the characteristics, the best up to 5000 meters were Yak3,9 and La7 and do not dispute this. Yak9U generally decrypted "killer", sorry for a lot of flaws with the engine.
                        La5FN, 7 beast-exterminator, power in everything: vertical, horizontal, weapons.
                      4. Octopus
                        Octopus 30 June 2020 23: 25 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        And now, by the order:

                        Try it)))
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        Fighter accompanying bombers forced to get involved in a dog dump
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        Nobody needs your speed, horizontal maneuverability is important

                        As it were, such an opinion was widespread at the beginning of the war. Say, you need a maneuverable and not very fast rotator, because attack aircraft are still relatively slow.

                        But no.
                        Dodging this way from several attacks, John Touch clarified for himself the tactics of the Zero pilots, which, I recall, he encountered for the first time in his life. Based on the overwhelming advantage in speed and climb, they dive from time to time from top to back, trying to "sit on the tail" of the attacked car, and in case of failure they did not try to climb into close combat or fire from the flank, but simply left the attack and almost vertically climbed for a new one. As shown by the overflights of the captured Zero in the fall of 1942, a dispersed Japanese fighter could perform “almost vertical climb, which can last from one and a half thousand (1500) to two thousand (2000) feet [450-600 m] depending on the speed in the beginning of the maneuver. ”


                        Let me remind you that the actions of the best fighter-twister of the war, Zero, and, on average, the best pilots, marine Japanese of the 42nd year, are described.

                        Defense and attack of attack aircraft can and should be carried out on the verticals, and not on the horizontal.

                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        The main thing for the German fighter after 1943: escorting their own and disrupting the bombing.


                        The Germans, with their indirect escorts, never wore it. In addition, the Yu-88 and the strike FV190 - this is not for you IL-2, speeds and altitudes allow fighters to work at full throttle.

                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        According to the Germans, to their infantrymen: while you are increasing the scores, Ily drive us into the ground.

                        Tales, Soviet memoirs. IL-2 in relation to infantry is practically useless, its specialization is front-line facilities. Airfields, crossings, stations, etc.
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        Yes, the Yak9 weighed like a messer, but aerodynamics were better

                        Absolutely crazy statement. Yak aerodynamics, of course, are worse, there is no advantage in horizontal speed, diving has never been a strong point of wooden planes. This we have not yet considered wood cladding when stored in the air.
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        Yak 3 is easier by half a ton, which allows you to do anything with Messer.

                        The Yak-3 was still superior to the Germans on the horizontal, caught up with the Messer in speed, finally, but still inferior to the Germans on the verticals, with a comparable pilot. There are no miracles; a wooden plane will not fly better than an iron one.
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        The whole trouble of the Japanese on Zero is that the plane is out of date, low speed (at the time of the massacre), one bullet and they were shot down, and the pilots are weak

                        Japanese still those, grind twin-engine aircraft over Guadalcanal. Even before the appearance of the Corsair, who is also not a tinker at all.
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        according to the characteristics, the Yak5000 and La3,9 were the best up to 7 meters and do not dispute this. Yak9U generally decoded "killer", it is a pity many shortcomings with the engine.
                        La5FN, 7 beast-exterminator, power in everything: vertical, horizontal, weapons.

                        Again the tales of political instructors. La-7 military release does not compare with the sleep Vc 41 nothing at allexcept just the speed. In particular, La 7 very poorly armed.

                        Comparing with some long-nosed Dora is completely ridiculous.
                      5. Viktor Sergeev
                        Viktor Sergeev 1 July 2020 09: 03 New
                        +1
                        I am in shock. 3 (2) guns located on the fuselage, is La7's poor armament, given the superiority of the guns of our guns over any foreign? La7 was superior to any aircraft (Yak3 cream) at altitudes of up to 4 km. in any form of maneuver, except for diving. The goal of La7 is single-engine aircraft, as a result even one gun was enough, and 2,3 firing at one point (and not from the wings) would be enough to destroy any aircraft. By the way, the armament of La5FN (7) was at least more powerful than that of a Messer (any).
                        You at least read how Kozhedub on La7 brought down your FW190 (assault version) unaccompanied. Bullshit is what you write. The speed of the FW190 did not allow to escape, even if the bombs were dropped, I am silent about the maneuvering battle, here the Yak3, La7 did what they wanted with him, so these coffins were often accompanied by messengers. And here the most interesting thing, the Messers often made their legs, throwing the wards.
                        Zero was a low-speed aircraft (for 1943 and beyond), all Soviet aircraft after 1943 at least were not inferior to the Germans in speed, superior in vertical maneuver (the most important who gained altitude wins). Yak3 exceeded Messer in all types of maneuver: hill, speed, horizontal maneuverability. Yak 9 having a Messer speed exceeded it on the horizontal and the hill.
                        Yes, each aircraft has advantages and disadvantages, especially during the war, but our planes were better suited for war (starting with the Yak 9,3 and La5FN), plus they were more technologically advanced.
                      6. Octopus
                        Octopus 1 July 2020 11: 02 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        I am in shock.

                        Life is pain.
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        3 (2) guns located on the fuselage, this is a poor armament La7

                        Yes Yes.

                        La-7 with three UB-20 was released in the amount of 368 (three hundred sixty eight) pieces. Real La-7 is 2 ShVAK.
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        Given the superiority of the guns of our guns over any foreign?

                        For some reason, experts, like you, talk about the powerful ballistic VYA-23, and then transfer this fact to all Soviet air guns, the main of which was ShVAK.

                        And ShVAK is a converted machine gun. The 20 × 99R cartridge is an approximate analogue of the 20x82 MG.151 / 20, with the exception of, of course, excellent shells. German shells.

                        Comparing with the standard of that time, Hispano with 20x110 is just ridiculous.
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        at heights of up to 4 km. in any form of maneuver, except for diving.

                        Yak-3, like La-7, were relatively successful cheap (in terms of technological level) aircraft of secondary importance from the point of view of aviation theater. To compare with the 14th Spit of the 43rd year, again, it is ridiculous, with the cannon F8F even more so. In a vertical maneuver, there is nothing to catch La-7, the speed is nominally at Birket level, but the higher, the stronger Birket. Despite the fact that when creating Birket, they deliberately refused high speed.
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        It was at least more powerful than Messer (any).

                        2x20 does not go to any comparison with 2x15 + 1x30, unfortunately.
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        You at least read how Kozhedub

                        I have a growing sense that you are writing this game seriously, and not troll.

                        How many divisions do you have enough leather jackets for?
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        The speed of the FW190 did not allow to escape, even if the bombs were dropped, I am silent about the maneuvering battle, here the Yak3, La7 did what they wanted with it

                        La-7 for the German attack aircraft was indeed dangerous, but, unfortunately, the main Soviet fighter was the Yak-9. Not the Yak-9U VK-107A, I emphasize, but simply the Yak-9, which did not squeeze 600 even at the factory.
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        often accompanied by messers.

                        A strike aircraft should strike, and not run away from fighters, dropping bombs and anti-aircraft bombs into the forest. Naturally, they were accompanied, the backlash was not so dumb.
                        "Fights" showed that for a successful fight against low-flying German aircraft it is necessary to develop new tactics. After all, most often the Focke-Wulfs approached at low altitudes and departed with a shaving flight at maximum speeds. Under these conditions, it turned out to be difficult to detect the attack in a timely manner, and the pursuit was complicated, since the matte gray color hid the German car against the background of the terrain. In addition, the FW 190 pilots included an engine boost device at low altitudes. The testers determined that in this case near the ground, the Focke-Wulfs reached speeds of 582 km / h, that is, neither Yak-3 (the plane available at the Air Force Research Institute could reach 567 km / h) nor Yak-9U (575 km / h) . Only La-7 on the afterburner accelerated to 612 km / h, but the speed margin was insufficient to quickly reduce the distance between two aircraft to the aiming distance.

                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        after 1943 all Soviet planes at least were not inferior to the Germans in speed, superior in vertical maneuver (the most important who gained altitude wins)

                        Lying is bad. First of all, the Yak-3 and La-7 are GuiAP aircraft. The main Soviet fighter, as I said, was the Yak-9. Secondly, no, they did not have an advantage in vertical maneuver, especially in speed, if the German was not loaded with bombs. The Elector’s climb rate is 1470 m / min, Yak-3 is 1111, Yak dives traditionally disgustingly, its maximum speed in diving is approximately the same as the maximum horizontal speed of the German. At 700, the Yak first bumps into aerodynamics, then falls apart, while any Messer dives 800+.
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        but our planes were better suited for war (starting with the Yak 9,3 and La5FN), plus they were more technologically advanced

                        ))
                        Naturally, no and no. Both Messers and Fokers were produced more than any Soviet fighter, including the Yak-9 of all modifications. No, not a single Soviet aircraft was technologically advanced, in the USSR it was not really about technology, it’s not Vilou Ran.

                        The wording is different. By the 44th year, the USSR was able to fully realize the opportunities that the technological level of its industry gave him, the mid-30s (which was especially lagging precisely in fighters, in bombers and transport, thanks to Tupolvev and Douglas, metal and even bearing casing appeared). Naturally, the Yak-3 was not a higher jump than Zero, the usual Soviet CW-21 of the 38th year, modified in speed. But at least what was possible, finally managed to be done without obvious stocks.
                      7. Alexey RA
                        Alexey RA 2 July 2020 10: 36 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        Given the superiority of the guns of our guns over any foreign?

                        Seriously? belay Here is what Soviet experts wrote about the ballistics of ShVAK in 1936:
                        Due to the fact that the ShVAK automation was originally designed for a 12,7 mm caliber, it was necessary to use an extremely light weight shell (20 grams against the normal weight for this caliber of 91-125 grams) and a short length for using a 150 mm cartridge. As a result, the projectile received reduced ballistic qualities, leading to a rapid loss of initial velocity.

                        ShVAK-20 was launched into production only because our industry mastered the production of its ancestor - ShVAK-12,7. So the transition to the release of its version, redeployed to 20 mm, was possible for the USSR in a reasonable amount of time. And the price for the possibility of organizing mass production was ballistics and the power of a shell.
            3. fighter angel
              fighter angel 30 June 2020 16: 32 New
              0
              octopus.
              Your lies all around.
              The A-26 was never an attack aircraft.
              Teach materiel.
              Any of the Yaks was catching up with him, especially near the ground. After all, he is, according to you, “attack aircraft” !?

              "... Try to protect the Reich sky from Spaats with any of these aircraft ..."
              My sick, you are an absolute zero in the tactics of the Air Force.
              There are front-line fighters, but there are air defense fighters!
              Change of seats here will not work.
              Who is “imprisoned” for what - he should be engaged in that.
              Once again, demonstrate your dilentantism in aviation.
              I repeat, read and study such a textbook - "Tactics of the Air Force" it is called.
            4. The comment was deleted.
            5. The comment was deleted.
            6. Octopus
              Octopus 1 July 2020 14: 51 New
              -2
              Quote: fighter angel
              You’ve never seen me in a long time.

              Seriously? What a nuisance.
              Quote: fighter angel
              Say hello to "yours": "cherry", "tesser", "Kiryusha do"

              kiril1246 (Are you talking about him?) and a tesser in the bathhouse, the nines have not been here for a long time, but wrote what really there.
              Quote: fighter angel
              which with my help including here are no longer there.

              Everything is clear with you, but there are no questions for you and people like you.
              I asked Mr. Smirnov questions about this in due time (outside the site), received answers, they are clear to me.
              Quote: fighter angel
              As for the letter "A", this letter was given to anyone by any means.

              I know this department! There anyone gets passports! For example, I wouldn’t betray someone like you! He would look only once in the face and instantly refuse!

              Quote: fighter angel
              slightly different aircraft engines than those who flew in the West, they had them with modifications and bells and whistles that raised their altitude

              Yes. And what is it for?
              Quote: fighter angel
              The armor of the "Recession" ??? At the level of IL-10 ???

              Welcome to the real world.

              Another thing is that the late A-1H (J) was already reserved.

              If the Americans knew that you take it so close to your heart, you would have forgotten the A-41 with 1,6 tons of armor especially for you. They blundered.
              Quote: fighter angel
              And on the combat accounts of the Ilyushins, there were destroyed TANKS, armored personnel carriers, ARMORED Tractors, artillery guns, mortars, anti-aircraft batteries, dugouts, bunkers, echelons, steam burners, bunkers, and bunkers;

              Schwarzstodte killed everyone, how well done!

              As the Germans did not notice him throughout the war, the devil knows him.
              Quote: fighter angel
              Well, so that it would be even more offensive, the data on the losses of aviation "mattresses" in Vietnam.

              It is incredibly funny how you stoke for the IL-10 with the figures of the war of the 70s.
              Quote: fighter angel
              This is really a shame. "Super-duper" power, and raped it in all the holes as they wanted. Moreover, those whom the "exceptional" considered subhuman, second-class people, savages!

              You are absolutely right. Another thing is that the shame was not in defeat, but in the fact that the necessary lessons were not learned from it. That is, a lot, of course, was done by the 80s, but all conclusions were made only at the military and foreign policy, and not at the domestic political level. This is a lot, of course, but could be much better.
            7. fighter angel
              fighter angel 2 July 2020 11: 48 New
              -1
              octopus
              "... Seriously? What a nuisance ..."
              No annoyance. It is for the best, because I can not vouch for the integrity of your bread-maker.

              "... kiril1246 (you about him?) and a tesser in the bathhouse ..."
              There they belong. When are you to them? It is not good to fend off the team.

              "... Everything is clear with you, but there are no questions for you and people like you.
              I asked Mr. Smirnov questions about this at the time (outside the site) ... "

              Poor hints at a nonexistent connection with the powers that be? I do not believe you! Here is not a single word, for you are used to lying for a long time. You would not be looking at Mr. Smirnov, but you would be watching yourself. And then the amendments were adopted, and soon for the distortion of the history of the Great Patriotic War it will be possible not only to ban, but also to get an article. Criminal Yes Yes. So you, look, otherwise you’ll “freeze” here, and you will go to places not so remote ...

              "... Another thing is that the late A-1H (J) was already reserved ..."

              So, initially there was armor on it.
              After which he practically stopped flying. In every sense of the word.

              "... Yes. And what is it for? ..."

              Besides the fact that you are an ignoramus and an ignoramus, the aircraft materiel is still to be taught and taught! As the great grandfather Lenin bequeathed.

              "... Americans would know that you take it so to heart ..."

              Yes, I wanted to spit on all your amers with a high note! Worldwide rabble of scammers, thieves, coves and killers. The more niggas tackle this "exclusive nation" the better.


              "... Schwarzstodte killed everyone, how well done!
              As the Germans did not notice him throughout the war - the devil knows ... "

              They didn’t notice so much that they gave him a whole bunch of nicknames: a cement bomber, a concrete bomber, a flisher, a butcher, a meat grinder, a Schwarztodt, a plague, a black death.?!?

              "... how do you drown for IL-10 ..."

              Yes, not only for him, but in general for all the Ilyushins!
              Because, they are at the front from bell to bell! From June 41st to September 45th. They pulled out the whole war on the front line, on their hump.
              And your “tad” - rats and jackal in the rear, shooting trucks, steam locomotives, farms and villages, not covered by anti-aircraft guns and fighters. Not a single, somehow productive “tad” -as working on the land is NOT AND Could NOT BE IN MIND!
              But the Soviet Asov-Sturmoviks - a few dozen people! And these are only the best, Twice Heroes of the Soviet Union! And there were hundreds of "strong middle peasants"! And their combat accounts are not steam locomotives with vehicles, but hundreds and thousands of units of ENEMY MILITARY EQUIPMENT AND LIVING FORCE! And even many downed planes have on their accounts!
              With regards to the “recession,” he successfully shot semi-armed partisans, burned villages with civilians by napalm, and as soon as the most effective, rifle-machine gun air defense appeared, he began to suffer unjustified losses. As an attack aircraft, he could no longer work effectively, even in conditions of such weak air defense. By his losses he proved it completely! Recession is a SHAME, not an attack aircraft!
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 29 June 2020 13: 28 New
    +2
    Octopus, the question of choosing the criterion of "reasonableness" of the organization of the aviation industry. Given the fact that aircraft engines often did not work out, and aircraft projects were laid under them, the optimum was often not obvious.

    During the war, the Germans put at least 3 lines of engines on fighters, not counting intermediate and jet ones.
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 29 June 2020 13: 46 New
      -1
      Quote: Pavel57
      During the war, the Germans put at least 3 lines of engines on fighters, not counting intermediate and jet ones.

      There are two approaches. The English beginning of the war - all aircraft on one engine - and German, several lines. None of these approaches involved attachment. in the cold shop DVO to the glider of the aircraft, which was designed for JOE. It is also obvious that a more resistant to combat damage engine is needed on planes of the battlefield.

      As for the “engines didn’t work,” it usually takes 5 years from starting the engine on the stand to the plane. The same PV2800 got on the stand in the 37th, and the first aircraft, Martin V-26, appeared only in the 42nd. Yes, quite often they tried to cut a corner and design a plane for a promising engine, but I do not remember a single successful case, at least during WWII.
      1. Pavel57
        Pavel57 29 June 2020 14: 07 New
        0
        So they recognized that the German had several lines of engines.)))
        Now, about the British, there are three straight lines - Merlin, Griffon and Saber.
        1. Octopus
          Octopus 29 June 2020 15: 19 New
          -1
          Quote: Pavel57
          So they recognized that the German had several lines of engines.)))

          Did the Germans complain that their engines limit them? When you can choose which engine is better for you, it’s not quite the USSR, you see.
          Quote: Pavel57
          Now, about the British, there are three straight lines - Merlin, Griffon and Saber.

          The outbreak of war, I said. There, the Beaverbrook commission transplanted all who could be to Merlin. The rest is in English M-82, Bristol Hercules.

          Griffon, Saber, Certaurus and Walcher are the engines of the next generation, the middle of the war, when everything became much simpler. The same griffins produced 8 thousand, Merlin - 170 thousand, Hercules - 57 thousand
          1. Pavel57
            Pavel57 29 June 2020 15: 40 New
            0
            I did not understand what you wanted to prove. Having a choice of engines is always better than without a choice. The fact that the situation with the motor industry in the USSR was worse than in England and the USA is understandable. But there was a choice, and then the question of finding the optimum.
          2. Octopus
            Octopus 29 June 2020 15: 49 New
            -2
            I said that the USSR either needed a fighter with M-82, or did not need a fighter with M-82. Neither one nor the other option of attaching this engine to someone else’s glider and testing in 5 days does not suggest.
          3. Pavel57
            Pavel57 29 June 2020 16: 00 New
            0
            Yes, if we take the start of the war, then we must recall the Pratt & Whitney R-1830.

            I needed a fighter with a powerful engine. Of the available was the M-82. This card interrupted Yakovlev’s attempts to have only Yaks and Klimov’s motors.
          4. Octopus
            Octopus 29 June 2020 16: 15 New
            0
            What is the British PV?

            Quote: Pavel57
            I needed a fighter with a powerful engine

            A fighter with this particular engine is the I-185. It is Shakhurin who needs to decide whether he needs to or not, it is his duty, namely in a warm office and in 1940, and not someone there with ragged fingers in the ice shop. 2 years later. Agree, this somewhat changes the way the question is posed.
          5. Pavel57
            Pavel57 29 June 2020 16: 46 New
            +1
            What engine was sharpened by the I-185?
            What weight did Polikarpov have at that moment, even if the I-180s were not mass-produced?
            As far as Yakovlev could be impartial in the post of deputy. Minister?
            Who could have imagined that they would have to retreat to Moscow?
            Everything in history is concrete, everything else is a mind game.
          6. Octopus
            Octopus 29 June 2020 18: 06 New
            -1
            Quote: Pavel57
            What engine was sharpened by the I-185?

            It was tested with both, but at the time of test 82 there was not enough power. However, it was the I-185, and not the LaGG-3, that was the aircraft originally made for a large air-cooled engine.
            Quote: Pavel57
            What weight did Polikarpov have?

            Quote: Pavel57
            How Yakovlev could be impartial

            Which one
            It
            It has
            Value?

            No meteorite fell on Lavochkin. The situation with the aircraft on the M-82 is a consequence of the specific decisions of specific people. If you remember this, then you should abandon the heroic pathos in the description of the Soviet automobile industry.
          7. Pavel57
            Pavel57 30 June 2020 09: 48 New
            +2
            I-185 was made under the M-90, which did not take place at all. Then under the M-71, which also did not take place. M-81 will leave behind the brackets. Remains M-82, which was intended for bombers and attack aircraft. There is an engine, but no aircraft. And Polikarpov no longer has factories. If you recall the story, then to La-5 (LaG-5) was still Gu-82, which also ahead of its time. And only with La-5 everything happened at one point — Lavochkin’s struggle for the plant, Shvetsov’s struggle for the engine and the military’s desire to have fighters not only Yak.
            What does pathos have to do with it, it's the reality of life. The interests of people do not always fully coincide with the interests of the country.
            Maybe it's better about the auto industry?))))
          8. Octopus
            Octopus 30 June 2020 11: 41 New
            -1
            Quote: Pavel57
            Remains M-82, which was intended for bombers and attack aircraft. There is an engine, but no aircraft. And Polikarpov no longer has factories.

            Quote: Pavel57
            only with La-5 everything happened at one point — Lavochkin’s struggle for the plant, Shvetsov’s struggle for the engine and the military’s desire to have fighters not only Yak.

            As a result, instead of the aircraft, which was developed under the Far Eastern Military District from the 39th year, the Red Army received an ersatz, another remake of shit and sticks. Alteration of the original secondary machine.
            Nevertheless
            Quote: pro100y.belarus
            Or you can sculpt a new engine in the cold, purged workshop by peeling your fingers off the old fuselage, undergo state tests in five days and launch the aircraft in a series called La-5 without enough time, money or materials .

            there are constantly people who give this mess and wrecking for the highest achievement of the Soviet spirit. Overcoming, labor feat, that’s all.
          9. Pavel57
            Pavel57 30 June 2020 12: 31 New
            +3
            In war, often the heroism of some arises from the mistakes of others.
            The question of wrecking in this case is relative - there were LaGGs, there were Yaks. Could do better - a moot point, because the world is concrete, cruel, and not sofa.
            Cast aside youthful illusions and do not view history through savoring the mess.
          10. Octopus
            Octopus 30 June 2020 14: 08 New
            0
            Quote: Pavel57
            the heroism of some stems from the blunders of others.

            Yes. Therefore, most of the heroes deserve first of all to find out who is crap. And often the tribunal.
            Quote: Pavel57
            there were LaGGs, there were Yaks. Could do better - a moot point, because the world is concrete, cruel, and not sofa.

            Actually, La-5/7 fans insistently do what they can and did.
            Quote: Pavel57
            Cast aside youthful illusions and do not view history through savoring the mess.

            Extremely far from youthful illusions. And the mess is the main content of the story.
        2. fighter angel
          fighter angel 2 July 2020 13: 25 New
          0
          octopus
          "... there are always people who give this mess and wrecking for the highest achievement of the Soviet spirit. Overcoming, labor feat, that's all ..."

          Do not tear yourself the fifth point.
          And do not hit your heel on the chest.
          Amerzofilam, and other troll henchmen, this is not given to understand.
          They don’t even know such words: selflessness, self-sacrifice, feat, heroism.
          Where normal people have a labor feat and heroism in the name of their homeland, they have intrigues, intrigues, a mess and wrecking.
          They were provocateurs, so they remained.
          That's right, like you, in wartime, without trial or investigation, they put to the wall ...
  • gsev
    gsev 5 July 2020 01: 12 New
    0
    [quote = Octopus] In a country with a reasonably organized aviation industry, I-5 / M-185 was supposed to be in place of La-82 without any heroism. [/ quote
    Germany during the war had 15 times more metal-cutting machines in the aviation industry than Soviet. In these conditions, creating equivalent aviation is problematic. For aircraft such as Thunderbolt and Mustang, the USSR simply did not have aviation gasoline. Nevertheless, Germany had daily aircraft losses of over 100 units only the first 2 weeks after June 22, 1941. In Western Europe, the actions of British bomber aircraft until 1943 were neutralized by about a hundred German fighters.
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 5 July 2020 02: 26 New
      0
      Quote: gsev
      Germany during the war had 15 times more metal-cutting machines in the aviation industry than Soviet. In these conditions, creating equivalent aviation is problematic.

      Did I urge someone to do this?
      Quote: gsev
      planes like Thunderbolt and Mustang in the USSR simply did not have aviation gasoline.

      Well, Mustang ate as much fuel as Cobra, but American fighter aircraft, as I wrote, was an application to the American strategic bomber. So there was no point in creating it by itself.
      Quote: gsev
      However, Germany had daily aircraft losses of over 100 units only the first 2 weeks after June 22, 1941

      That is, half of the aircraft allocated to Barbarossa was knocked out by the Soviet side in the first two weeks? How interesting.
      Probably, the Soviet side itself considered?
      Quote: gsev
      In Western Europe, the actions of British bomber aircraft until 1943 were neutralized by about a hundred German fighters.

      The actions of British bomber aircraft were neutralized by approximately zero German fighters. The British practically did not fly during the day. Moreover, the British switched to total air warfare during the 42nd year, before that they traded in small dirty tricks.
      1. gsev
        gsev 5 July 2020 13: 23 New
        0
        Quote: Octopus
        Did I urge someone to do this?

        So Stalin managed to organize the matter in such a way that Soviet aviation in 1941 turned out to be a more worthy adversary than the Anglo-French during the German invasion of France. Soviet aviation showed itself to be no worse than the Japanese in 1939 than the British, the Dutch and the Americans in the first six months of the war in the Pacific. In the Battle of England, having a geographical advantage, the British aviation hardly won. To neutralize the raids in similar conditions, the Germans needed to have fighters in the West with the number of 2-3 regiments of the Red Army. In the USSR, geographical conditions were equal, but the Germans failed to defeat the Red Army Air Force. Nevertheless, in the first weeks of the war against the Red Army, the Germans lost more than a hundred aircraft per day. I did not tell the pilots.
        1. Octopus
          Octopus 5 July 2020 18: 22 New
          +2
          Quote: gsev
          Soviet aviation showed itself worse than before the Japanese in 1939

          No, what impudence. She showed herself - This is a showdown of fighting hamsters in hell on the fuss?
          Quote: gsev
          In the Battle of England, having a geographical advantage, the British aviation hardly won.

          The RAF won with difficulty, and the Red Army air forces resolved somewhere in a couple of days, just as there were none.
          Quote: gsev
          To neutralize the raids in similar conditions, the Germans needed to have fighters in the West with the number of 2-3 regiments of the Red Army.


          Quote: gsev
          Nevertheless, in the first weeks of the war against the Red Army, the Germans lost more than a hundred aircraft per day. I did not tell the pilots.

          You have not yet said where you got this figure. From TASS messages.

          And in real life in the first week, when the Red Army Air Force still showed signs of life, the Germans lost 280 irrevocable cars in the East. For the entire 41st year - 1424 cars.

          This is 7 with small cars per day at the front from Murmansk to Kerch.
  • PilotS37
    PilotS37 29 June 2020 16: 27 New
    +1
    Quote: pro100y.belarus
    At the end of 1944 in France, the Thunderbolts had no choice but to hunt for cars and trains.

    At the end of 1944 - yes, but in the spring and summer of 1943? ..
  • Al_lexx
    Al_lexx 28 June 2020 20: 59 New
    +1
    Good competent article. Roman, thank you.
  • Cer59
    Cer59 28 June 2020 21: 51 New
    +1
    Solid article.
    From January 1943 until the end of the war, being part of the 5th mine and torpedo division of the Kirkenes Red Banner Air Force Division of the Northern Fleet, pilots of the 255th IAP made 3 combat sorties with an attack of 386 hours, conducted 4 air battles, as a result of which 022 aircraft were shot down the enemy.

    Of these: Ju-88 - 3, Me-110 - 23, Me-109 - 88, FW-190 - 32, FW-189 - 2, He-115 - 2, BV-138 - 1.
    255 IAP navy shot down in the air: 183, total destroyed 192. combat sorties 4577

    Handbook "All Fighter Regiments of Stalin" p. 842 -
    255 Navy Red Banner Fighter Aviation Regiment
    (Military unit field mail 26895)
    FORMATION, SUBMISSION, WEAPONS OF THE SHELF TILL 09.05.1945
    01.04.1941/255/36 15 fighter aviation regiment began to be formed as part of 21 fighter air divisions of the Air Force of the Kiev Special Military District (aero Brusilov near Kiev) on staff 2/43 of personnel 16 and XNUMX IAP on I-XNUMX aircraft.
    22.06.1941/36/13 Having not completed its formation, KOVO, consisting of 16 IADs (with the outbreak of the war renamed the Air Force of the Southwestern Front), entered into hostilities against fascist Germany and its allies, having XNUMX I-XNUMXs in combat.
    The first known air victory of the regiment in World War II was won: Art. l-Denisov I.S
    . in aerial combat in the region of the north-west. Kiev was shot down by a German bomber Yu-88.
    23.08.1941/20.12.1941/36 - 11/XNUMX/XNUMX Having transferred the flight personnel and part of the ITS to other regiments of XNUMX IAD, the command and control of the regiment, with part of the technical staff, went down from the front to re-equip and retrain the XNUMXth reserve fighter aviation regiment of the Transcaucasian Military District (Rostov-on-Don, then Gudermes and Kirovobad).
    21.12.1941/20.03.1942/11 - 2/015/174 Due to the lack of equipment in 3 ziap, transferred to XNUMX ziap of the Moscow Military District (station of the Sejm in the Gorky Region), where it was reorganized according to the state XNUMX/XNUMX and mastered LaGG-XNUMX fighters.
    April 1942 The flight crew of the regiment twice surpassed LaGG-3 aircraft for the fighting air regiments of the Volkhov Front Air Force.
    May 1942 At the beginning of the month he received LaGG-21 at the factory number 20 in Gorky and went to the front.
    07.05.1942/3/XNUMX As part of the Attack Air Group of the General Headquarters Headquarters, operating under the operational command of the Volkhov Front Air Force, it entered into hostilities against Nazi Germany and its allies on LaGG-XNUMX aircraft ...
    25.06.1942/XNUMX/XNUMX UAG SVGK transformed into Special Maritime Air Group SVGK.
    05.07.1942/XNUMX/XNUMX As part of the OMAG, the SVGK received an order to fly to the Northern Fleet, where it continued to conduct combat work.
    30.07.1942/14/3 It had 6 LaGG-XNUMXs in combat (XNUMX of them were faulty).
    October 1942 He began to develop the Yak-1 fighters.
    05.11.1942/20/4 I took 1 pilots from the Yak-XNUMX aircraft from the XNUMX IAP OMAG of the Air Force of the SF which was decreasing for reformation.
    05.11.1942/XNUMX/XNUMX Upon the disbandment of the OMAG, the SVGK became directly subordinate to the headquarters of the Northern Fleet Air Force.
    01.01.1943/9/1 It had 4 Yak-6s in combat (3 of them were faulty), 2 LaGG-3 (3), 3 MiG-1 (2) and XNUMX U-XNUMX.
    January 1943 Included in the 5th mine-torpedo air brigade of the Northern Fleet Air Force. Got 8 American AeroCobra fighters.
    01.02.1943/7/1 It had 4 Yak-3s, 8 LaGG-1s, 2 Aerocobras, and XNUMX U-XNUMX in combat.
    02.1943/04.1943/XNUMX - XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX Without interrupting combat work, conducted the development of the personnel of the aircraft "Aerocobra".
    01.06.1943/2/1 Received "Aero Cobra" from 2 giap of the SF Air Force, which were fully armed with 3 and 3 squadrons, 1 a la LaGG-XNUMX and Yak-XNUMX.
    01.07.1943/20/4 He had in combat 3 “Aerocobra”, 3 LaGG-1, 1 Yak-2 and XNUMX U-XNUMX.
    20.07.1943/5/5 XNUMX mtabr of the Air Force of the SF is transformed into XNUMX mine-torpedo air division of the Air Force of the SF.
    08.1943/09.1943/3/1/XNUMX He received the American Kittyhawk fighter aircraft, having surrendered the remaining LaGG-XNUMX and Yak-XNUMX.
    01.10.1943/18/11 It had 1 “Aero Cobra”, 16 “Kittyhawks”, 1 I-4, 1 UTI-2 and XNUMX U-XNUMX in combat.
    25.10.1943/3/27 27 squadrons at the Kittyhawks departed to the 2th Air Force IAP of the Northern Fleet, in exchange XNUMX of them were received from the XNUMXth IAP, after which the regiment was completely rearmament to Aerocobra.
    01.01.1944/19/7 It had 1 “Aerocobra” in combat (of which 16 were faulty), 0 I-1 (2) and XNUMX U-XNUMX.
    31.03.1944/255/XNUMX For the exemplary fulfillment of the combat missions of the command on the front of the struggle against the German invaders and the valor and courage shown at the same time, by decree of the Presidium of the USSR Armed Forces, the XNUMXth Air Force of the Navy was awarded the Order of the Red Banner.
    29.10.1944/XNUMX/XNUMX One instance of the American Thunderbolt fighter was received, which passed military tests in the regiment.
    November 1944 From that time on, he did not conduct combat work, being engaged in combat training and command training of personnel.
    11.1944-12.1944 The regiment was completely re-equipped with Thunderbolt planes, but they were not used until the end of the war, they were relocated to the air. Jagodnik near Arkhangelsk, where they were in the reserve of the Air Force of the SF.
    09.05.1945/XNUMX/XNUMX Expelled from the army.
    He had in combat 39 “Aerocobra” (3 of them faulty), 2 “Thunderbolts” (1 faulty) 18 Yak-7b (2 faulty) and 1 “Hurricane”, “Kittyhawk” and Yak-7v.
    RESULTS OF THE BATTLE'S MILITARY ACTIVITY IN THE GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR
    Done sorties - 4577
    Air battles held - 168
    Enemy aircraft shot down - 183
    Aircraft allegedly shot down - 37
    Enemy balloons shot down - 4
    Destroyed aircraft at airfields - 9
    Own losses (no data for 1941):
    pilots - 58 (combat - 48; non-combat - 10)
    ITS - 3
    other l / s - 1
    aircraft - 83
    Regiment commanders
    _.04.1941 - _.08.1941 Yakushin Konstantin Egorovich
    _._. 1942 - 26.08.1943/XNUMX/XNUMX Panin Pavel Alekseevich (died)
    _.09.1943 - 17.03.1944 Chertov Nikolay Gerasimovich (died)
    22.04.1944/09.05.1945/XNUMX - XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX Tulsky Alexander Egorovich

    Panin Pavel Alekseevich, commander of the 255th Air Force of the Navy (1942-1943)
    BRIEF INFORMATION ABOUT THE LAST FATE OF THE REGION
    20.06.1945/63/2 It had XNUMX Thunderbolts in combat (XNUMX of them malfunctioning).
    1952 Transferred from 5 mtad to 91 Iads (formerly
    . 6 IAD) Air Force SF.
    February 1957 Together with 91 IADs, it was transferred from the Navy to the Air Defense Forces. Included in the Northern Air Defense Corps.
    30.06.1960/255/91 XNUMX IAP disbanded with the management of XNUMX IADs in the Northern Air Defense Corps.

    as we see the real state of affairs with the history of the regiment is slightly different.
    The Handbook "All Fighter Regiments of Stalin" contains the most accurate information that could be collected about our fighter regiments.
  • sevtrash
    sevtrash 28 June 2020 22: 10 New
    +1
    The p47 performed its function — escort — well, and besides, it unexpectedly showed itself as an attack aircraft, so the aircraft turned out to be quite successful.
    I’ve read Gallai’s books since childhood and I don’t remember something about Thunderbolt and, in general, the place where he would describe p47. Not a mistake?
    1. PilotS37
      PilotS37 29 June 2020 16: 35 New
      0
      Quote: sevtrash
      I’ve read Gallai’s books since childhood and I don’t remember something about Thunderbolt and, in general, the place where he would describe p47. Not a mistake?

      It was, it was! But where exactly, I won’t say right now: Gallay wrote a lot of similar books.
  • Alex 1970
    Alex 1970 29 June 2020 10: 54 New
    +1
    I read it with interest, in general I learned a lot about the R-47. As it came to the bomb load, involuntarily, Pe - 2 came to mind. With approximately the same empty mass of about 5 tons, the maximum for an American is almost 3 tons more!
  • meandr51
    meandr51 29 June 2020 12: 41 New
    0
    Carlson Lindgren deducted from her friend Goering.
  • Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev 29 June 2020 14: 25 New
    0
    There is no bad technique, there is improper use and bad pilots. Our even Hurricanes and Cobras made airplanes.
  • Vladimir Mashkov
    Vladimir Mashkov 29 June 2020 14: 37 New
    0
    A good, interesting, well-illustrated article by Roman, which he - for some reason - spoiled with unpleasant thoughts about "Russian freeloaders and thieves" (which is acceptable to a foreigner, but not to a Russian patriot, by whom Roman positions himself). Several errors and inaccuracies are indicated by commentators. Also, for some reason, the same shot was duplicated. In general, the article is not bad.
    1. agond
      agond 29 June 2020 20: 45 New
      +1
      The vast majority of single-engine aircraft of the time
      had a heavy engine that strongly displaced the center of gravity of the aircraft forward, and therefore, after the center of gravity had to move the wing forward, as a result, the air flows from the propeller braked on the wing, which reduced the speed of the aircraft, in the P-47 the mass of the propulsion system was divided into two parts, which in general allowed to push the center of gravity a little back, this is the main reason for choosing this design. Of course, the P-47 is unique, but too large, it would be better to make it smaller, for which instead of a two-row star put a single-row
      1. NF68
        NF68 1 July 2020 16: 40 New
        0
        Quote: agond
        The vast majority of single-engine aircraft of the time
        had a heavy engine that strongly displaced the center of gravity of the aircraft forward, and therefore, after the center of gravity had to move the wing forward, as a result, the air flows from the propeller braked on the wing, which reduced the speed of the aircraft, in the P-47 the mass of the propulsion system was divided into two parts, which in general allowed to push the center of gravity a little back, this is the main reason for choosing this design. Of course, the P-47 is unique, but too large, it would be better to make it smaller, for which instead of a two-row star put a single-row


        With a single-row star, engine power will decrease by almost 2 times, and then the flight data will become nonexistent. Instead of a turbocharger driven by the exhaust gases of the engine, a 2-stage mechanical supercharger could be used. In this case, the altitude would decrease by about 2 kilometers, but the weight of the aircraft would be noticeably smaller and the fuselage would have a smaller area since it would not be necessary to install a turbocharger that took up a lot of space.
        1. Octopus
          Octopus 1 July 2020 20: 07 New
          +1
          Quote: NF68
          With a single-row star, engine power will decrease by almost 2 times, and then the flight data will become nonexistent.

          It was theoretically possible to take such a plane, my beloved

          And how to pump it: Wright R-1820-G5 should be replaced by a conditional R-1820-74W, the glider will be further facilitated by magnesium and resistance welding (see Corsair) (and, of course, competent sopromat), save weight on protected tanks and armor, as it should be capotated, reduce the wing by half and round off, but attach mechanization, put decent weapons (even 7,62 with English incendiary bullets are deadly for Zero, Spanish ShKAS were available from machine guns to Americans). It would be a miracle, not a plane, especially if you recall one more unique advantage of the Americans at that time - the massive use of anti-overload suits.

          But this is not the American way, alas.
          1. NF68
            NF68 2 July 2020 16: 29 New
            0
            Quote: Octopus
            Quote: NF68
            With a single-row star, engine power will decrease by almost 2 times, and then the flight data will become nonexistent.

            It was theoretically possible to take such a plane, my beloved

            And how to pump it: Wright R-1820-G5 should be replaced by a conditional R-1820-74W, the glider will be further facilitated by magnesium and resistance welding (see Corsair) (and, of course, competent sopromat), save weight on protected tanks and armor, as it should be capotated, reduce the wing by half and round off, but attach mechanization, put decent weapons (even 7,62 with English incendiary bullets are deadly for Zero, Spanish ShKAS were available from machine guns to Americans). It would be a miracle, not a plane, especially if you recall one more unique advantage of the Americans at that time - the massive use of anti-overload suits.

            But this is not the American way, alas.


            7,62 mm machine guns. and about this already at the beginning of WWII were ineffective against modern aircraft at that time. During the war, the protection of aircraft improved and these machine guns would be even less effective. Relief — those weakening the design, as you suggest, would only do harm. Therefore, lightened in this way aircraft during WWII did not take root.
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. Octopus
              Octopus 2 July 2020 19: 44 New
              +1
              Quote: NF68
              Relief — those loosening the design, as you suggest, would only do harm

              I think you did not notice a nuance.
              Quote: Octopus
              conditional R-1820-74W

              Another unique advantage of the Americans, about which they also accidentally learned from the British, was the mass production of benzene, and, due to this, the replacement of pre-war gasoline with 87 octane with a new 100/130. As a result, the engines had to be rebalanced - the detonation came later, the liter capacity was growing, but, accordingly, the heat sink was complicated. From this point of view, a single-row engine was much less problematic than a double-row one. In particular, the specified modification of Wright in the post-war commercial versions gave out 1500 hp. With such an engine, this glider would have more than 1 hp. 1 kg of power, and with an increase in booking and armament, it would gradually turn into an early FW190, which is not bad for an American aircraft.

              In general, my sentiments with respect to this design are related to the fact that the Americans could take the path of intensification and technical beauty, but they took the path of brute force. Of course, this could be reasonable, but after 80 years I am allowed to look for elegant solutions.
              1. NF68
                NF68 3 July 2020 16: 36 New
                0
                Quote: Octopus
                Quote: NF68
                Relief — those loosening the design, as you suggest, would only do harm

                I think you did not notice a nuance.
                Quote: Octopus
                conditional R-1820-74W

                Another unique advantage of the Americans, about which they also accidentally learned from the British, was the mass production of benzene, and, due to this, the replacement of pre-war gasoline with 87 octane with a new 100/130. As a result, the engines had to be rebalanced - the detonation came later, the liter capacity was growing, but, accordingly, the heat sink was complicated. From this point of view, a single-row engine was much less problematic than a double-row one. In particular, the specified modification of Wright in the post-war commercial versions gave out 1500 hp. With such an engine, this glider would have more than 1 hp. 1 kg of power, and with an increase in booking and armament, it would gradually turn into an early FW190, which is not bad for an American aircraft.

                In general, my sentiments with respect to this design are related to the fact that the Americans could take the path of intensification and technical beauty, but they took the path of brute force. Of course, this could be reasonable, but after 80 years I am allowed to look for elegant solutions.


                First, the Americans switched from gasoline with an octane rating of 87 units to gasoline with an octane rating of 100 units, and only then to 100/130 and a power of 1500 hp. these engines began to develop no earlier than the end of 1943 and the beginning of 1944 when engines developing already 190 hp or 2000 hp began to be installed on the FW-2060. at low altitudes. With an air-cooled engine of 1500 hp. you can’t fight much with the early FW-190s. The Americans needed a large flight range that immediately put such a fighter a notch a step below the FW-190. In the fall of 1944, the Germans appeared FW-190 D9 c Jumo-213 A c MW-50 developing 2240 hp on take-off - and this is on gasoline with an octane rating of 87 units .. Since the beginning of 1945, the Germans despite the Allied bombing on the FW- 190 A-9 Germans began to establish a BMW-801 S which developed at take-off 2200 hp. Americans with an air vent with a capacity of 1500 hp. they will not fight much.
                1. Octopus
                  Octopus 3 July 2020 17: 51 New
                  +1
                  Quote: NF68
                  Americans with an air vent of 1500 hp. they will not fight much.

                  Yes, but I would not like to be misunderstood. I do not suggest that Americans change to low technology.

                  As for 100 and 100/130. This is generally the same fuel, 130 - this is its characteristics with increasing boost.

                  On the engines. I mean their level of the 40th year, when the main aircraft were the R-39 / R-40. At the beginning of the war and 1200 standards, neither land vehicles nor F4F anymore.

                  Again, pathos should be understood correctly.

                  Quote: Octopus
                  Americans could have taken the path of intensification and technical beauty, but they had taken the path of brute force.

                  Quote: Octopus
                  how to pump it: replace Wright R-1820-G5 with the conditional R-1820-74W, lighten the glider even more due to magnesium and resistance welding (see Corsair) (and, of course, competent sopromat), save weight on protected tanks and the armor should be capotated, the wing halved and rounded, but mounted mechanized, put decent weapons (even 7,62 with English incendiary bullets are deadly for Zero, Spanish ShKAS were available from the machine guns for the Americans).

                  I am deeply convinced that the Americans did wrong by abandoning the intensive development of airplanes in favor of increasing weight and power. That is, the increase in power certainly does not interfere, but in general, American aircraft were very loose in both weight and aerodynamics. This is not only my opinion - the British trolled a mustang, light by American standards, as a dive bomber and offered to make it a ton easier while maintaining the rest of the parameters. Conditional Horikoshi at the American industrial level could achieve much more.
                  1. NF68
                    NF68 4 July 2020 16: 44 New
                    0
                    For 1943, the F4U Corsair, R-47 and R-51 had very good characteristics at high altitudes for the actions at which they were developed. A corsair with incomplete fueling and at medium altitudes had not bad characteristics. To replace it, they developed more advanced options with higher performance characteristics. Something similar at that time in an acceptable amount except the United States was able to create only the British. Just well-designed aerodynamics and allowed these American aircraft to develop high speed. In order to create a well-armed fighter with high flight characteristics, they had a solid structure that could withstand large overloads, with good protection, powerful weapons and a long range, the Americans needed powerful engines since all of the above takes up a lot of space and decently weighs. In addition to the Americans and the British, no one could create such powerful high-altitude and medium-high engines, therefore, they could not follow the path of the Americans and the British.
                    1. Octopus
                      Octopus 4 July 2020 21: 24 New
                      +2
                      Quote: NF68
                      Americans needed powerful engines as all of the above takes up a lot of space and decently weighs.

                      On the contrary. As far back as the 38th year, the Americans instinctively rather than rationally decided to try their most powerful engine on the fighter, the PV2800. By the 41st year, he exceeded 2K, and Merlin XX gave 1,5K at that time.
                      A more powerful engine made it possible to compensate for second-rate in the rest of the design. The price was, in fact, the price. Mustang showed that comparable with the thunder characteristics can be obtained much cheaper.
                      Quote: NF68
                      long range

                      On the first day of the Pacific War, bombers flew to the Philippines, accompanied by Zero in from Formosa. See the distance.
                      Quote: NF68
                      powerful weapons

                      So-so powerful. 6 browning gave a volley weight of 3,7 kg / min with a dead weight of 180 kg. Late Messers from 1x30 + 2x15 gave a volley at 5 kg / min with a dead weight of about 140 kg, and this weight (and the weight of the ammunition) was in the center, and not in the wings.
                      Quote: NF68
                      with good protection

                      Good compared to the Japanese, but not Foki.
                      Quote: NF68
                      robust construction to withstand heavy loads

                      It is enough to withstand overloads up to 9Zh, when the pilot loses consciousness. What is higher is a meaningless weighting of a glider.
                      Quote: NF68
                      with high flight characteristics

                      High flight performance is not achieved.
                      Quote: NF68
                      had very good characteristics at high altitudes for the actions at which they were developed.

                      Battlebox tactics allowed the Americans to enter the battle, having a numerical advantage and an advantage in height. In such conditions, yes, their aircraft provided a quality result. But this is not quite the achievement of the designers - American strategic aviation was an extremely expensive pleasure and it was American superiority in industrial power that became the cornerstone of their aviation success.

                      I will repeat industrial power, but, alas, not engineering design. On conditional American Polycarp hunger was unbelievable.
                      1. Octopus
                        Octopus 5 July 2020 13: 18 New
                        0
                        Quote: Octopus
                        3,7 kg / min

                        Quote: Octopus
                        5 kg / min

                        In a second, of course
                      2. NF68
                        NF68 5 July 2020 17: 03 New
                        0
                        German aviation was also not a cheap pleasure. Only the Germans were forced to use not much that was available to them, and the Americans and the British, thanks to the Americans, used the best. And the American leadership did not interfere with their designers as much as the Germans did. In their reports about the tests of American and British high-altitude fighters, German testers highly appreciated trophy fighters. If American and British aircraft designers were not good specialists in their field, then the industrial power of the United States would not have helped them. Only the P-47s were very expensive, and the price of the P-51 was pretty low. The Germans, developing the new FW with the new 18-cylinder BMW-802, followed the same path as the Americans - take-off weight of 5 tons and solid dimensions. As for the Me-109 with a pair of MG-151/15 instead of MG-131, such options were not mass-produced, but released with MG-13, which were much weaker than the American 12,7 mm. Browning.
                      3. Octopus
                        Octopus 5 July 2020 18: 00 New
                        +1
                        Quote: NF68
                        German Aviation was not a cheap pleasure either

                        It's funny enough there.

                        Backlash organizationally was a separate type of troops, but they were always perceived by the leadership of the Wehrmacht in combination with hiir. Arnold, although organizationally related to the Army and Marshall, grabbed the bad from the British.
                        Shpaatz, Harris, Bradley, and naval commander Admiral Bertram Ramsay talked about the role of the forces they command in a great enterprise. Brooke, who was in a bad mood, did not like all this. Shpaatz bored him. In his diary, Brooke complained that "Harris told us how easily he could have won the war if he had not interfered with the existence of two other arms"

                        For Kvesad, the fighter was still a little-known weapon with enormous, unexplored capabilities in supporting the ground forces. He considered it his duty to explore these possibilities. In England, Quesada initially experimented with increasing the bomb load of his fighters, hanging under the wings and under the fuselage more and more heavy bombs and more. He even turned a squadron of high-speed Spitfires into a squadron of fighter-bombers. When the British began to protest against such an attitude towards the fighters, which were their pride, the unflappable Quesada replied:

                        “But these are not your planes, but mine.” And I will do whatever I want with them.

                        The culmination of these experiments reached the day when Kvesada hung under his fighter "R-47" in a pair of 450-kilogram bombs.

                        Having broken through a gap in the enemy’s defense, Collins’s tank and motorized columns had to rush to Brittany, not paying attention to their flanks and rear. From morning to night, each column had to be covered by fighter-bombers, protecting troops from enemy ambushes and helping to break through strongholds. Thus, the aircraft conducted reconnaissance and attacked all the objects that interfered with the advancement of the columns. [368]

                        To communicate with the aircraft, the commander of each convoy was assigned a special communications group.

                        - Can you provide our columns with constant radio communications with aviation? I asked Quesada.

                        “Of course we can,” he grinned, “but it will be difficult for my guys to act with your columns.” They will have to move in open jeeps while yours are in tanks.

                        “Why not put your liaison groups with aircraft in tanks?”

                        “Are you serious, General?” - he asked. - By golly, that would be great! But we will have to check if our radio stations can operate if they are installed in the tank.

                        “Fine, Pet.” By noon, I will send a couple of Shermans to your command post.

                        That is, the Air Force of the Army is not that there are no aircraft made for the needs of the Army. The very idea of ​​such support is the initiative of specific officers.
                        Quote: NF68
                        If American and British aircraft designers were not good specialists in their field,

                        They were good experts in their field, but this business was not the production of fighter jets. The same North American previously did not produce and did not design fighters.
                        In early 1943, negotiations were held between representatives of Great Britain and North American Aviation on the need to create the next generation Mustang. The first NA-73 prototype was designed with a large margin of safety with much higher load factors than the British Air Purchasing Commission required. As a result, many Mustang nodes weighed much more than on Spitfire. Accordingly, reducing the weight of the structure, it was possible to achieve higher characteristics of the aircraft with the same engine. Edgar Schmuede, visiting Supermarine factories in the UK and familiarizing himself with the captured Messerchmitt and Focke-Wulf fighters, came to the conclusion that Mustang could be reduced in weight. In January 1943, North American Aviation suggested that the USAAF produce a prototype of a special light version of the Mustang. Weight reduction was achieved by simplifying the design of the aircraft and by simplifying a number of systems. The engine remained unchanged. The new Mustang model was designed to meet the optimal British and American strength requirements, but mainly taking into account the requirements of the British Air Publication 970.

                        Neither his Horikoshi was in America, nor the Air Force of the Army took the trouble not only of creating standards for the design of fighters, but even simply reprinting English materials.

                        It’s ridiculous to talk about such a feat of thought, as an order to turn Merlin over and make a plane with reverse V and a motor gun. And who should I order? Mustang was made under the English order, the Army Air Force did not know about him.
                        Quote: NF68
                        The price of the R-51 was pretty low.

                        Well, as low, about like Sleeps and Fock, more than Messer. Only this is not a real American plane, but stiff from the British.
                        Quote: NF68
                        went the same way as the Americans — take-off weight of 5 tons and solid dimensions.

                        Compare Jag and Sea Fury. Engine, weapons, hood.
                        Quote: NF68
                        MG-13, which were much weaker than the American 12,7 mm. Browning.

                        And more than twice as easy. Because the German is not an echo of the First World War, but a new product.

                        The massive use of 0.50 is a huge plus for Americans on earth (it’s nice to be rich, yes), but no bigger than a huge minus in aviation. Browning, after all, is not about WWII aviation; this decision is not just like Mosinka as the main infantry weapon, but close.
                      4. NF68
                        NF68 7 July 2020 17: 10 New
                        0
                        Quote: Octopus
                        That is, the Air Force of the Army is not that there are no aircraft made for the needs of the Army. The very idea of ​​such support is the initiative of specific officers.


                        For Americans, the conditions were initially different. First they had to land somewhere, gain air supremacy, and only then support their ground forces.

                        It’s ridiculous to talk about such a feat of thought, as an order to turn Merlin over and make a plane with reverse V and a motor gun. And who should I order?


                        Perhaps the British and Americans did not particularly need it.

                        They were good experts in their field, but this business was not the production of fighter jets. The same North American previously did not produce and did not design fighters.


                        But they didn’t make a bad plane for great heights. The Germans began to fight much earlier than the Americans, but they were delightfully late with this matter, although the Germans also had more experience than the Americans.

                        Well, as low, about like Sleeps and Fock, more than Messer. Only this is not a real American plane, but stiff from the British.


                        So the R-51 was heavier and larger than the Me-109 even the K-4 series. If the Germans managed to establish production of larger and heavier high-altitude Me-109 K-14s with DB-605 L engines, then their price would also rise. In addition, the Me-109 produced almost 2 times more than the R-51. This also affected the price.

                        Compare Jag and Sea Fury. Engine, weapons, hood.


                        If I still knew what jag is.

                        And more than twice as easy. Because the German is not an echo of the First World War, but a new product.


                        But this new product ceased to fully suit the Germans by 1944 and therefore the Germans tried to replace the MG-109 MG-4/131 on the Me-151 K-15, and in many other developments replace MG-151/20 immediately.

                        The massive use of 0.50 is a huge plus for Americans on earth (it’s nice to be rich, yes), but no bigger than a huge minus in aviation. Browning, after all, is not about WWII aviation; this decision is not just like Mosinka as the main infantry weapon, but close.
                        .

                        I do not argue. But the Germans and the Japanese were quite enough. The cat wept for 4 motor bombers from the Germans. They and 2-motor was not much. And for fighters 6 or 8 0,50 was enough.
                      5. Octopus
                        Octopus 7 July 2020 19: 30 New
                        0
                        Quote: NF68
                        First they had to land somewhere, gain air supremacy, and only then support their ground forces.

                        They had no planes for either one or the other. When the Americans landed in Africa, it turned out that they had a Hawk fighter, which could be used only as an ersatz attack aircraft, such as Hurricane, and the attack aircraft was the Apache dive aircraft, aka Mustang, which was more than strange as a dive aircraft.

                        So the fight for air, again, was done by the RAF.
                        Quote: NF68
                        Perhaps the British and Americans did not particularly need it.

                        The British did not need to - the carburetor of the 30s did not allow turning the engine so easily, and the planets were already rated for normal V. But the Americans still make a new airframe, and the carburetor at the beginning of the war is already floatless, you can rotate it as you like.

                        Another thing is that the Americans do not have expertise on the part of the customer for fighters.
                        Quote: NF68
                        But they didn’t make a bad plane for great heights.

                        The first Mustang was again a Hurricane with a laminar wing (range increase due to takeoff and landing characteristics). And what kind of high-altitude aircraft was not asked from the company NA, and it was impossible to do it with Alison. The distant high-rise Mustang is again ersatz, a remake of a model that is not about it even once.
                        Quote: NF68
                        what is jag

                        Juggernaut, R-47.
                        Quote: NF68
                        the product ceased to fully suit the Germans

                        Yes. Despite the fact that it is better than Browning.
                        Quote: NF68
                        But the Germans and the Japanese were quite enough

                        You give out need for virtue.
                      6. NF68
                        NF68 8 July 2020 16: 57 New
                        0
                        Quote: Octopus
                        They had no planes for either one or the other. When the Americans landed in Africa, it turned out that they had a Hawk fighter, which could be used only as an ersatz attack aircraft, such as Hurricane, and the attack aircraft was the Apache dive aircraft, aka Mustang, which was more than strange as a dive aircraft.

                        So the fight for air, again, was done by the RAF.


                        The Americans began to fight almost 2 years later than the British, and they gained such experience as the British only by the middle of 1944.

                        The British did not need to - the carburetor of the 30s did not allow turning the engine so easily, and the planets were already rated for normal V. But the Americans still make a new airframe, and the carburetor at the beginning of the war is already floatless, you can rotate it as you like.


                        The placement of weapons in the wing also has its advantages. Later, the British also had floating carburetors, but nevertheless the British did not begin to install a motor-gun, despite the fact that this arrangement of the gun also had its advantage.

                        Another thing is that the Americans do not have expertise on the part of the customer for fighters


                        From the British, the Americans shared information, but apparently this was not enough.

                        The first Mustang was again a Hurricane with a laminar wing (range increase due to takeoff and landing characteristics). And what kind of high-altitude aircraft was not asked from the company NA, and it was impossible to do it with Alison. The distant high-rise Mustang is again ersatz, a remake of a model that is not about it even once.


                        The speed of the first Mustangs was still much higher than that of the Hurricanes. Such ersatz among the Japanese did not appear at all. The Italians also, but the Germans with a scanty amount of FW-190 D-11-only 17 units and FW-190 D-13-2 !!! units + several dozens of Ta-152s and didn’t produce anything similar to the R-51 by the end of the war, there were good reasons for it, but all the same, the opponents of the United States and the BI took too long to think about this matter. And when they thought of it, it was already too late. Although the Germans, the company Junkers, somewhere else in the mid-30s already had experience in creating 2-stage mechanical superchargers with a height close to that of the turbochargers driven by exhaust gases.
                2. Octopus
                  Octopus 5 July 2020 18: 39 New
                  0
                  PS
                  For Kvesad, the fighter was still a little-known weapon with enormous, unexplored capabilities in supporting the ground forces. He considered it his duty to explore these possibilities.

                  The Shrike was distinguished from its marine counterpart by the absence of a radar, landing hook and wing folding mechanism, increased pneumatics of the wheels and elongated exhaust pipes.

                  Since the Columbus plant was busy building the HellDivers for a long time, the venture of the same company in St. Louis was oriented toward the production of the Shrikes. The first "shrike" took to the skies on September 29, 1942.

                  Meanwhile, the attitude of the Air Force leadership towards this machine began to gradually change. The command quite rightly decided that not too high flight data and rather weak defensive weapons (in particular, the absence of any protection from below) do not allow using it without a strong fighter escort. But fighters, as always, weren’t enough. The army needed a strike aircraft capable of operating independently, and the Shrike was clearly not suitable for this. As a result, already in the spring of 1943, the army order was reduced from 3000 to 900 vehicles, and they were used only for training flight crews, patrolling the American coast and as towing targets.


                  This is a speech about a real dive bomber, with a barbell, sights, etc., but not the "dive" R-47, if that.
  • Aag
    Aag 2 July 2020 18: 59 New
    +3
    If it doesn’t bother you, explain, please, the amateur, what kind of aircraft, and why it is so wonderful (if you offer to change the configuration of the airframe, production processes, people indicate weak weapons, from the presented photo it seems that there is insufficient view from the pilot's seat) ? I can understand personal preferences for those or other types of equipment (TTX, LTX figures, available application statistics, may be on the sidelines). But, then, you probably need personal operating experience?
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 2 July 2020 19: 24 New
      0
      Quote: AAG
      But then, probably, you need a personal operating experience?

      )))
      This aircraft will be used at the beginning of the war in China and Indonesia in extremely small quantities and, accordingly, without success. So no, I have no personal experience with its use. And in the form in which he was, he did not particularly impress the Japanese.
      Quote: AAG
      If it doesn’t complicate you, explain, please, the amateur, what kind of aircraft, and why it is so wonderful

      This is the CW-21 Demon, an American fighter of the late 30s, which did not interest the US military.

      It is noteworthy in that, unlike all the major American fighter jets, it was an exceptionally light aircraft with a potentially very powerful but light engine. That is, its power / weight ratio was potentially uniquely high.
      1. Aag
        Aag 2 July 2020 19: 32 New
        +1
        Thanks for watching. I'll see.
        Well, why did you like it so much that you are ready ... to "turn the mountains" to bring it to mind? Yes, and the years, it seems, are not critical for the United States to create "imperfections"?
        1. Octopus
          Octopus 2 July 2020 19: 53 New
          +2
          Quote: AAG
          Well, why did you like it so much that you are ready

          It was one and a half times lighter than the P-40, adopted by the Americans, and its engine, developing, was more powerful than the Hawk engine throughout the war. So the car is potentially quite interesting.
        2. Aag
          Aag 2 July 2020 19: 59 New
          0
          Sorry, so far only Wikipedia is available (it’s sinful, apparently I won’t get any further). The rate of climb is impressive! Maneuver in three planes, judging by the configuration, the glider (again, it’s not at all special), apparently, also at least at the level ... and ... all?
          I think your answer would be of interest not only to me. I read with interest a discussion with your opponents. And thanks to them.
          1. Octopus
            Octopus 3 July 2020 08: 10 New
            +3
            Quote: AAG
            also, at least, at the level ... And ... is that all?

            I write NF68 above.

            In the early 30s, Pratt-Whitney created its Twin Vasp engine, in which the cylinders were arranged in two rows of 7. This engine was extremely commercially successful. He had the same weight, power and displacement as Wright’s engine, a 9-cylinder race, but his frontal area was a quarter lower.

            Everything was OK until the early 40s, when the Americans introduced the new fuel. The power-heat transfer balance shifted, and the attempt to increase the power of stars began to rest not on the working volume, that is, the detonation of fuel, but on the heat transfer of the second row, the cylinder air, heated and inhibited by the first row, did not have time to cool the second.

            It’s clear how to deal with the heat transfer of JOE. This explains the triumph of Merlin, which with a working volume of 27 liters accelerated to 2K + hp. in later versions. With the Far East, it’s more complicated, hence all sorts of tricky schemes, like the Foki megavan. However, the simplest option was to simply remove the second row of cylinders and disperse the first. The Americans did not go this route, and I feel annoyed about this.

            That is, not the most, of course, a big trouble in my life. But, nevertheless, the Americans of the late 30s had an engine in their hands, the power of which, with an obvious refinement, corresponded to the early Fock and La-5, with the simplicity, lightness and reliability of the I-16 engine. They did not use this engine.
            1. Aag
              Aag 3 July 2020 08: 19 New
              0
              Thanks for the detailed answer. hi
  • NF68
    NF68 30 June 2020 17: 32 New
    0
    R-47 developed a maximum speed of 663 km / h at an altitude of 7800 m with a landing speed of 148 km / h. The latest German fighter Bf.109F-4 at that time developed a maximum speed of 606 km / h at an altitude of 6200 m at a landing speed of 135 km / h. High landing speed is, of course, a serious thing, especially with such a mass, but, as it turned out, the corresponding chassis elements decide everything.


    Conventional Bf.109F-4 with DB-601 E engines at an altitude of 6000 meters developed speeds of up to 635 km / h, and carefully "licked" Bf.109F-4 with the same DB-601 E engines at an altitude of 6300 meters developed up to 665-670 km / h.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20070926235558/http://www.beim-zeugmeister.de/zeugmeister/index.php?id=28&L=1%29

    The aircraft gained altitude of 5000 m in 8,5 minutes; the rate of climb near the ground was 10,7 m / s, and the turn time was 30 s. At the same time, the Bf-109G and Fw-190A-3 had a climb rate of 17 and 14,4 m / s, and the turn time was 20 and 22 s, respectively.


    The P-47 was originally developed as a high-altitude aircraft, and so comparing its flight characteristics with German or someone else's or medium-altitude fighters is not entirely correct. R-47 took off and gained altitude far from the front line or from the territory of the enemy, and when the R-47 met the enemy, the R-47, as a rule, were at a high altitude, 7 km. and higher, where their flight performance was already better than the Bf-109G and Fw-190A-3.
  • ToRpom
    ToRpom 1 July 2020 07: 54 New
    0
    Thank you Roman!
    It was interesting to get acquainted with the history of the aircraft!
    1. agond
      agond 1 July 2020 21: 25 New
      0
      If the goal was to move the wing away from the plane of rotation of the propeller by shifting the center of gravity of the aircraft backwards, this could be done by installing a long power take-off shaft from the engine under the cockpit and then towards the tail wherever he turned the compressor, this would reduce the number of pipelines there and back., however, it is unclear how long such a shaft can be made
      1. Aag
        Aag 2 July 2020 18: 33 New
        0
        This is plus torsional vibrations, balancing, mounting bearings bearings, and, or, a gear in the tail.
        About the power take-off shaft under the cab ... It will turn out problematic. Of course there are successful arrangements when the engine behind the cab was installed. But, in the version you propose (IMHO of a layman), we will rake more of the minuses. The mechanical nature, times. Plus, indicated in the article the turbine air ...
        1. agond
          agond 2 July 2020 21: 19 New
          0
          Yes, a long shaft at high speeds is bad, but let’s say, behind the engine there is an angular gearbox with a pulley and a belt under the cab and then to the tail, to the compressor, by the way, in the year before last, one steam engine could drive all the machines to the workshop with a belt
          1. Aag
            Aag 3 July 2020 07: 15 New
            0
            We get a reduction gear at the beginning of the shaft, and increasing at the end along the way, gaining weight, and reducing reliability.
            No matter how the shop of the century before last turned out))).
  • Left shot
    Left shot 7 July 2020 15: 03 New
    0
    That was a lot. Lots of. For comparison: the Hurricane II had an engine of 1260 hp, the Messerschmitt Bf.109E and even less - 1100 hp
    - When the article begins with fly in the ointment, then the credibility of the entire text already falls. Do not directly compare the power of the water cooling engine with the "star"
  • Maksim_ok
    Maksim_ok 15 September 2020 23: 28 New
    0
    I read it with pleasure