Military Review

Nordic Thunder: Northern Europe's mobile artillery

69

The high level of automation allowed to reduce the calculation of self-propelled howitzers Archer to three people who, during the shooting process, remain protected by an armored cockpit


Four armies (Danish, Finnish, Norwegian, and Swedish, represented by the Scandinavian Defense Cooperation Organization) operate the same CV90 infantry fighting vehicle and the Leopard 2 main battle tank, albeit acquired through separate procurement programs. At the same time, despite Sweden’s support for the selection of a single platform, these four countries have chosen different solutions to meet their needs for self-propelled 155-mm artillery systems with 52-caliber barrels.

The Swedish Archer wheeled howitzer, caliber 155 mm and with a barrel length of 52 calibers (hereinafter referred to as 155/52) was launched in the mid-90s when Bofors Defense (now BAE Systems Bofors) signed a contract with the Defense Procurement Office to implement a technology demonstration program for the Swedish army. The prototype was a combination of the 155/45 artillery unit from the towed Bofors FH-77B howitzer and the modified Volvo VME A25C 6x6 all-terrain vehicle with a fully armored cabin to protect the crew and engine compartment. After conducting extensive tests in 1996, the Swedish army put forward a requirement for security calculations: the execution of the fire mission and removal from position should occur without leaving the cockpit. The modified prototype was equipped with a 24-shot magazine, after which in 1999 it was returned to the artillery school for a new test cycle. In parallel with these demonstrations, the army also conducted extensive tests of two 155 mm tracked vehicles - the PrgN 2000 from Krauss-Maffei Wegmann and the AS90 Braveheart from BAE Systems - before deciding that the wheeled solution is more economical.

Nordic Thunder: Northern Europe's mobile artillery

BAE Systems Bofors manufactured 48 Archer self-propelled howitzers for the Swedish Ministry of Defense, although 12 of these are offered to overseas customers.

At the end of 2003, Bofors received a contract from the Office for the production of two prototypes of the Archer Artillery System 08, the first of which began testing in June 2005. Denmark, which became Sweden's first partner in the Archer project (the two countries planned to order 36 systems each), subsequently withdrew from it. A new participant was found in Norway, which in November 2008 signed a cooperation agreement with Sweden on the development of Archer, and in March 2010, BAE Systems Bofors received a contract to manufacture 24 units for each country. The Swedish army received its first pre-production platforms in September 2013. However, in December of the same year, Norway refused to buy Archer SG, citing delays in the development schedule and expressing concern about the platform's cross-country ability on difficult rough terrain. In September 2016, the Swedish government announced that it would buy the 24 Archer howitzers originally planned for Norway for a total of SEK 900 million and transfer 12 units to the Swedish army, and 12 more to be offered to foreign customers.


In order to revive export sales, the International Archer 155 52 self-propelled howitzer is proposed for installation on different chassis trucks, for example, in this case, on the RMMV HX2 chassis

The crew (crew) includes a driver and three operators, who are placed in an armored cockpit that provides protection in accordance with the requirements of “at least level 3 of the NATO STANAG 4569 standard”, as well as when a mine weighing 6 kg under one of the wheels is detonated. Automated workstations are all the same, although the driver’s workplace is naturally optimized for driving. In emergency situations, the task is provided by the driver and one member of the Archer team. An automated magazine with 20 shots can handle all 155-mm shells, not exceeding a length of 1000 mm and a mass of 50 kg. Another 20 shots are transported by car in a stack for manual replenishment of the store. SG Archer can shoot 20 rounds in 2,5 minutes, which corresponds to a rate of fire of 9 rounds per minute.

The Archer howitzer can fire extended-caliber projectiles with a bottom gas generator (type ERFB-BB) for a range of about 40 km and a high-precision M892 Excalibur active-reactive projectile for a range of about 60 km. For short-range defense, Archer howitzers of the Swedish army are equipped with a Lemur remotely-controlled combat module armed with a 12,7-mm machine gun, which is also designed and manufactured at the BAE Systems Bofors factory in the Swedish city of Karlskuga. Volvo Construction Equipment's A30E articulated chassis has speeds of up to 70 km / h and has a range of about 500 km. With a mass of about 30 tons, the Archer platform can be transported by an Airbus Military A400M military transport aircraft. Each Archer installation is accompanied by an Ammunition Resupply Vehicle (ARV) ammunition replenishment machine, which is a modified standard container equipped with a lifting mechanism and mounted on an 8x8 armored truck of the German company Rheinmetall Man Military Vehicles (RMMV). Replenishment of ammunition takes about 10 minutes and this is the only process when members of the crew leave the cabin.


BAE Systems Bofors offers the International Archer howitzer on the RMMV HX2 8x8 chassis for the British Mobile Fire Platform project

The first 24 systems ordered by Sweden were delivered to the only remaining artillery unit Artitieriregementet 9 (artillery regiment 9) in the Swedish army in 2016-2017. Personnel are trained in the regiment for the 91st and 92nd artillery battalions, each of which is equipped with 12 Archer howitzers, organized in three batteries. The deployment of an additional 12 Archer howitzers, six of which were delivered at the end of 2019, will be announced in the defense plan for 2021-2025, scheduled for publication at the end of 2020. “As for the upcoming defense decision, which will enter into force in 2021, it is extremely gratifying to see the growth of the Swedish armed forces. Growth that we have not seen to date. Among other things, the Defense Committee suggests moving from two artillery battalions to six battalions and two artillery battle groups, ”said the commander of the A9 artillery regiment.


Finnish army reaches K9Fin Moukari tracked howitzer initial alert in 2020

International archer


In January 2020, BAE Systems Bofors began firing trials of the complete swinging part of the Archer carriage mounted on the RMMV HX2 8x8 all terrain vehicle. The Archer modular system, first shown at the London DSEI in September 2019, is designed by the developer to increase Archer's appeal to potential foreign customers, including the British Army. She plans to purchase up to 135 wheeled platforms 155/52 MFP (Mobile Fire Platform) to replace the 155/39 AS90 tracked self-propelled guns that have been in operation since 1993. The choice of International Archer on the RMMV HX chassis was obvious since the British Army was the starting customer for the HX series and operates a fleet of more than 7000 HX and SX series vehicles.

The characteristics of the artillery part of the International Archer howitzer correspond to the characteristics of the Swedish Archer system. The Archer howitzer on the HX2 chassis can reach a speed of 90 km / h, and the fuel available on board allows you to get a range of up to 650 km. The cabin provides three members of the calculation with complete protection against fragments, shells, mines, shock waves and WMD. According to a BAE Systems spokesperson, this new international Archer is easy to combine with a wide range of chassis, allowing the customer to determine the best machine for his needs. ”


Finland has ordered 48 Hanwha Defense manufactured K9 Thunder tracked SGs from South Korean Army depots

According to the British Army 2020 Refine modernization plan, announced in 2016, four short-range artillery regiments will be equipped with MFP systems to support two motorized infantry and two new Strike brigades. In January 2020, the Department of Defense issued requirements for the MFP project. The concept of Strike brigades depends on a high level of strategic and tactical mobility, so the MFP system must be able to engage in combat after a march of 520 km for 24 hours. The gun should be ready to fire 60 seconds after receiving a fire call and exceed the AS90 rate of fire: a burst of three shots in 10 seconds, intense fire of 6 rounds per minute for three minutes and a long rate of two shots per minute for an hour. When firing conventional shells, the MFP howitzer should reach a range of 30 km with a target range of 40 km. Accurate fire and increased range will be achieved by firing promising shells Tactical Guided Munition (Indirect) and High Explosive Base Bleed, developed under the program of near-fire support.

The initial decision on the MFP project is scheduled for 2021, the main decision for 2024, and the initial readiness of the equipment for combat use in 2026. A few more companies are interested in the MFP project: Nexter (offers CAESAR). Elbit UK (ATMOS), Hanwha Defense (K9) and Kraus-Maffei Wegmann (RCH155 module mounted on a Boxer 8x8 armored vehicle).


With the advent of the K9 howitzer, the Norwegian army will decommission the remaining 155 mm M109A3GNM howitzers, which have served there for over 50 years

Double victory for K9


The closest neighbors of Sweden in the east and west - Finland and Norway - are currently deploying K9 Thunder self-propelled howitzers of the South Korean company Hanwha Defense, developed in the 90s to meet the needs of the Korean army in a system that would have greater range, speed and mobility for compared with the American 155 mm M109 system of local licensed production. The K9 system of caliber 155 mm and with a barrel of 52 caliber is serviced by a crew of five: a commander, a driver, an operator-gunner and two loaders. Based on the artillery unit 155/52 of local production Hyundai WIA. The rack in the tower niche holds 48 rounds of four different types. A high level of automation allows the K9 to shoot three shells in 15 seconds and from 6 to 8 shells in three minutes. The standard K9 howitzer is equipped with an MTU MT 881 Ka-500 engine with 1000 hp. (750 kW) and hydropneumatic springs, which allows you to reach speeds of 67 km / h and a power reserve of 360 km. The K9 system works in conjunction with the K10 ammunition transport vehicle, also based on the K9 chassis, which allows it to operate in the same battle formations as the K9 Thunder. This K10 machine carries 104 rounds, which at a speed of 12 rounds per minute are automatically transmitted through the conveyor to the rack in the tower niche. For 2019, the South Korean army received 1136 K9 howitzers and 179 K10 vehicles. By 2030, the army plans to upgrade its K9 fleet to the K9A1 standard.

In response to the needs of the Finnish army for the 155-mm self-propelled guns, South Korea proposed to put the K9s in operation out of their own army. Following an extended assessment of K9 howitzers in that country in November 2016, Finland signed an agreement worth $ 46 million for 48 K9 systems in February 2017. The contract also includes training, spare parts and service systems and an option to purchase additional K9 systems.


In December 2019, Norway received the first of 24 ordered K9 Vidar systems.

Finland received the first K9Fin Moukari howitzer (blacksmith hammer) for its army in 2018, and in September 2019 the Jaeger artillery regiment of the armored brigade (one of the three high-readiness brigades) began training recruits selected for work on the K9 whose service will last 347 days. “The control subsystems and the reliability of the K9 Thunder howitzer are well suited for training and recruiting. Thanks to a powerful engine, automatic transmission and steering, work on an armored howitzer is greatly simplified. This means that we can focus on safe but effective artillery preparation, ”said Jaeger artillery commander. In 2020, the Karelia regiment, part of the Karelia brigade (another of the three high-readiness brigades) will begin training personnel to work on the K9Fin howitzer.


Howitzer K9 Vidar will go into service with the Norwegian North Brigade by the end of 2027

In December 2019, the Norwegian army received its first K9 platforms, which are known there under the designation K9 Vidar (Versatile InDirect ARtillery system - a universal indirect artillery system). Norway signed a contract with the South Korean company Hanwha in December 2017 for 24 new K9 howitzers and six K10 ammunition transport vehicles with an option for 24 additional K9 platforms. This decision was followed by a three-week assessment in the harsh conditions of the Norwegian winter of four 155 mm systems from different manufacturers: K9 Thunder from Hanwha, PzH2000 from Krauss-Maffei Wegmann, CAESAR from Nexter and the upgraded platform M109 KAWEST from RUAG.


Hanwha Defense ammunition transport vehicle K10 can replenish K9 howitzer ammunition in the turret with 48 shells in less than five minutes, while the crew must leave their vehicles

The first K9 systems were delivered to the Norwegian Army Arms School, where training for commanding officers began in May 2020 and later in mid-2021, training courses for the rest of the crew will be organized for recruits. Before receiving their K9 howitzers, Norwegian instructors gained valuable experience during training in Finland.

The artillery battalion of the North Brigade (the only artillery unit in the country) is currently equipped with 18 M109A3GNM systems, but should be fully equipped with K2021 howitzers by the end of 9. “The most important thing is that we can get a great range. This means that we can put pressure on the enemy even before he enters into a direct clash with the North brigade. The K9 howitzer also has significantly better mobility compared to the previous platform, ”said the senior instructor at the Arms School at the ceremony of transferring the new K9 platforms. - These guns are characterized by a fully automated process of firing, which greatly simplifies the work of calculations. When changing position, the system calculates a new course and data for firing. This allows units to move faster than today's M109 systems. ” Finnish and Norwegian K9 howitzers are equipped with auxiliary power units.


The Danish crew conducts experimental firing of a CAESAR 8x8 self-propelled howitzer in November 2019

Caesar conquers Denmark


In January 2020, the first two self-propelled 155/52 CAESAR howitzers (CAmion Equipe d'un Systeme d'Artillerie) 8x8 of the company Nexter Systems were delivered to the Oksbol Camp, where the Danish artillery regiment was stationed. These two platforms were used for experimental firing at the Swedish Karlskoge firing range in 2019, and additional tests will be held in 2020; in addition, combat training instructors will be trained at them. The first CAESAR howitzers will be officially handed over to the regiment in mid-2020.

After Denmark left the Archer howitzer project, the search for the Danish army to replace its remaining M109A3 systems with 155/52 platforms was tortuous and not easy. In 2013, Denmark, after evaluating responses from 9 companies, invited Elbit Systems (offering its howitzer Soltam Autonomous Truck MOunted howitzer System, ATMOS), Hanwha (K9 Thunder) and Nexter (CAESAR 6x6) to submit applications for delivery from 9 to 21 platforms with a calculation that the contract will be issued before the end of 2014. Elbit was able to meet all the requirements and was selected for delivery, but the project was closed on April 30, 2015 in order to free up funds for a more urgent project. This cancellation caused considerable hype, as the Danish Social Liberal Party opposed the issuance of the contract of the Israeli company in connection with the Israeli policy towards Palestine.

The new competition was launched in December 2015, seven companies entered it, which are supposed to put 15 systems with an option for six additional howitzers. The howitzers Soltam ATMOS and CAESAR reached the final again in the second competition, although Nexter offered a new version of the CAESAR 8x8, featuring several improvements over the 6x6 configuration model that took part in the first competition. In March 2017, the Danish government announced its intention to become the first customer of the CAESAR 8x8 system and in May 2017 awarded Nexter a contract for the supply of 15 platforms with an option for six more, the delivery of which should begin in the middle of this year. In October 2019, Denmark took the option and bought four more howitzers, bringing the total to 19 units. An additional four vehicles will be delivered in 2023.


The Danish army became the first customer of the Nexter Systems CAESAR 8x6 self-propelled howitzer, which is largely based on the success of the previous 6x6 CAESAR model

Building on the success of the previous CAESAR 6x6 model, which was sold to the French army and four foreign customers, Nexter introduced the CAESAR howitzer in 8x8 configuration at Eurosatory 2016. Denmark chose the platform from Czech company Tatra, which was shown at Eurosatory. although the system can be mounted on a suitable 8x8 chassis from other manufacturers, including Iveco, Renault, RMMV and Sisu. Howitzer CAESAR 8x8 weighs from 28 to 32 tons, depending on configuration. Denmark has chosen an armored four-door cockpit providing bulletproof protection in accordance with Level 3 and mine protection in accordance with Level 2; it is also equipped with air conditioning and protection against weapons of mass destruction. The CAESAR 8x8 platform has a speed of up to 90 km / h and has a range of 600 km.

Howitzer CAESAR 8x8 is equipped with a computerized fire control system, a radar for measuring the initial velocity of the projectile and an inertial navigation system, which allows the calculation to dismount and bring the gun ready in less than one minute. The ability to shoot back and quickly leave a position reduces the likelihood of falling under counter-battery fire. In the configuration for Denmark, the CAESAR 8x8 platform has 36 unit rounds ammunition compared to the 18 shots carried with the 6x6 variant. Danish howitzers are equipped with a semi-automatic ammunition handling system that achieves a speed of six rounds per minute. Nexter also offers a fully automatic system, although ammunition is reduced to 30 rounds. A CAESAR howitzer can fire all NATO standard ammunition for barrels with a length of calibres 39/52. In a separate project, Denmark plans to purchase longer-range precision-guided munitions to take full advantage of the new CAESAR 8x8 howitzers.
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  1. Trevis
    Trevis 21 June 2020 05: 55
    +6
    Skyrim for the Nords?
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 21 June 2020 12: 44
      +2
      Quote: Trevis
      Skyrim for the Nords?

      Once upon a time they were led by an adventure road ... and then someone stole their sweet roll.
      1. Trevis
        Trevis 22 June 2020 13: 15
        0
        I hope you are for the Storm Brothers?
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 22 June 2020 14: 22
          +1
          Quote: Trevis
          I hope you are for the Storm Brothers?

          For the clan Volkihar. smile
          1. Trevis
            Trevis 22 June 2020 15: 04
            0
            Quote: Alexey RA
            For the clan Volkihar.

            So we are on opposite sides of the barricades. lol For I am from the Guardian of Dawn! good
  2. Grandfather
    Grandfather 21 June 2020 05: 56
    +6
    Hanwha Defense ammunition transport vehicle K10 can replenish K9 howitzer ammunition in the turret with 48 shells in less than five minutes, while the crew must leave their vehicles
    This is certainly a successful solution. class.
    1. Thunderbolt
      Thunderbolt 21 June 2020 06: 13
      +1
      Six and a quarter seconds per projectile)
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 21 June 2020 07: 27
        +1
        I'm afraid the loader will die from this pace.
        Therefore, this is a common fake for South Koreans
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 21 June 2020 08: 54
          +6
          laughing
          If the person who placed the minus is ready to shove the shell here in "six and a quarter seconds"

          and the charge is here

          ready to take my words back
        2. Thunderbolt
          Thunderbolt 21 June 2020 13: 33
          10
          Quote: Spade
          I'm afraid the loader will die from this pace.

          And why should he die if
          crews must leave their cars
          .Charging is done like this

          from 1.57 minutes It is clearly seen how the K10 supplies the self-propelled gun.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 21 June 2020 18: 53
            +3
            Quote: Thunderbolt
            And why should he die if
            crews must leave their cars

            Nice one.
            But the problem is, 48 ​​shells cannot be tamped into the tower niche.
            Therefore, who takes shells in non-mechanized laying (in the first photo with two arrows) and all the charges? Special South Korean ghost?
            laughing

            That is, as I wrote, South Korean advertisers hang noodles on their ears.
            As was the case with the rate of fire. When they were the rate of fire of three shells of the "first stage" passed off as a combat rate of fire.
            1. Thunderbolt
              Thunderbolt 21 June 2020 19: 43
              +3
              Quote: Spade
              Nice one.
              But the problem is, 48 ​​shells cannot be tamped into the tower niche.
              I understand what we are talking about. The transfer of shells is fully automated. K10 clogs the conveyor without human intervention / 5 minutes /. But the charges are supplied manually. Therefore, a full charge lasts longer / 20 minutes /.
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 21 June 2020 19: 55
                +3
                Quote: Thunderbolt
                The transfer of shells is fully automated.

                Again.
                Of the 48 shells of the ammunition, at least a third are in two non-mechanized stacks (2 x 8 shells) to the right and left of the hatch in the stern



                Who shoves them there when "fully automated"?
  3. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 21 June 2020 06: 49
    -2
    Thanks, informative ...
  4. Sailor
    Sailor 21 June 2020 07: 43
    +5
    And how much Msta-S we have, if there are 1136 of them in Korea! It means K9.
    1. PSih2097
      PSih2097 21 June 2020 07: 58
      -4
      Quote: Sailor
      And how much Msta-S we have, if there are 1136 of them in Korea! It means K9.

      in addition to Msta, we have quite a few trunks both in the army and in storage ...
      The high level of automation allowed to reduce the calculation of self-propelled howitzers Archer to three people who, during the shooting process, remain protected by an armored cockpit

      It will not be enough, in case of failure of automation ...
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 21 June 2020 08: 47
        +9
        Quote: PSih2097
        It will not be enough, in case of failure of automation ...

        It will not work "in case of failure of the automation". Like the "Coalition"
        1. PSih2097
          PSih2097 21 June 2020 09: 57
          0
          Quote: Spade
          Quote: PSih2097
          It will not be enough, in case of failure of automation ...

          It will not work "in case of failure of the automation". Like the "Coalition"

          well, I'm not one of the "gods of war", but in my understanding - manual mechanics in the unit should be present from the "word NECESSARY" ...
          As we have, there are remote mines, and there is a shovel and hands ...
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 21 June 2020 10: 00
            +9
            Quote: PSih2097
            manual mechanics in the unit must be present from the "word NECESSARY" ...

            This greatly complicates the tool. In addition, a person may simply not have enough space.
            1. PSih2097
              PSih2097 21 June 2020 10: 07
              -5
              Quote: Spade
              This greatly complicates the tool.

              is it on the price tag or what? So no one in their right mind should save on the army ...
              Quote: Spade
              In addition, a person may simply not have enough space.

              this is again to the price, remember the towed artillery - there in the gas \ Kamaz \ kraz \ ural drug batteries can be shoved if desired.
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 21 June 2020 10: 17
                +9
                Quote: PSih2097
                is it on the price tag or what?

                This is in fact
                Quote: PSih2097
                should not save ...

                It's not about saving.

                Quote: PSih2097
                this is again to the price, remember the towed artillery - there in the gas \ Kamaz \ kraz \ ural drug batteries can be shoved if desired.

                laughing
                You did not understand.
                You will have to put at least three to four people here:
        2. ProkletyiPirat
          ProkletyiPirat 21 June 2020 09: 58
          -4
          Well, automation is different for automation, it can be worse than the charging one and better (by the sum of the parameters). It’s a pity the coalition’s automation has no information to evaluate its reliability ....
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 21 June 2020 10: 19
            +6
            Quote: ProkletyiPirat
            it can be both worse than the charging one and better (by the sum of the parameters).

            Charger could not be better than automation.
            1. Bad_gr
              Bad_gr 21 June 2020 23: 35
              0
              Today I came across a 100-mm self-propelled anti-tank gun 2C15 "Norov". This seems to be a Rapier version with a gun:

              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 22 June 2020 09: 59
                +1
                Quote: Bad_gr
                This seems to be a Rapier version with a gun:

                It's unlikely.
                From the power of mechanized sending, and then it is unlikely
            2. ProkletyiPirat
              ProkletyiPirat 22 June 2020 03: 29
              -1
              Quote: Spade
              Quote: ProkletyiPirat
              it can be both worse than the charging one and better (by the sum of the parameters).

              Charger could not be better than automation.

              It depends on what kind of AZ, if it’s like on Caesar, then it (AZ) is worse than the loader with a manual rammer, if it’s better on the archer / coalition.
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 22 June 2020 10: 02
                +2
                Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                if as on caesar

                There is no AZ on the "Caesar", there is only mechanized shelling.
            3. nks
              nks 22 June 2020 09: 52
              0
              Comparison criteria must be defined first
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 22 June 2020 09: 57
                +1
                Quote: nks
                Comparison criteria must be defined first

                Physical.
                High-speed shooting with loaders is unlikely, especially at high elevation angles
                Shells are fired with a different force, which increases dispersion
                The loader has a higher probability of error.
                1. nks
                  nks 22 June 2020 10: 05
                  -1
                  .



                  Quote: Spade
                  Shells are fired with a different force, which increases dispersion

                  Are you serious?)) In general, the rammer is also automation, but using it does not mean the presence of AZ


                  Quote: Spade
                  The loader has a higher probability of error.

                  and the probability of failure of complex equipment without the ability to quickly fix it?


                  Just in case, I’ll say that I’m not against AZ, but against such peremptoryness. Automation of shooting is generally good, but in each case there are nuances.
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 22 June 2020 10: 16
                    +2
                    Quote: nks
                    Are you seriously?))

                    Yes

                    Quote: nks
                    In general, the rammer is also automation,

                    No.
                    Well, what the hell is "automation" on "Msta-B"?
                    And there, by the way, two fur. dossilizer, shell and charging

                    Quote: nks
                    and the probability of failure of complex equipment without the ability to quickly fix it?

                    As for me, the probability of loaders is lower. Especially tired.
                    About errors in the charge, in the installation of the fuse, about the flying away battery thermometer, I do not even speak. I know of a case of a "light" shot instead of a HE shell. Well, not the other way around. And a solid lieutenant colonel who could not understand "what it is" until the gunman, hesitating, reported an error
                    1. nks
                      nks 22 June 2020 10: 32
                      -2
                      Quote: Spade
                      Yes

                      And what is such confidence based on?

                      Quote: Spade
                      Well, what the hell is "automation" on "Msta-B"?
                      And there, by the way, two fur. dossilizer, shell and charging

                      It is such automation. And then you contradict yourself here.


                      Quote: Spade
                      in the installation of the fuse, I’m not even talking about the flying battery thermometer

                      This has no special relation to AZ - this is to the OMS. Those fuse installation can be implemented in AZ, but now they do not.

                      Especially tired.

                      I agree here.

                      the case of a shot with a "light" instead of a HE shell

                      This can also happen with AZ.
                      1. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 22 June 2020 11: 35
                        +1
                        Quote: nks
                        And what is such confidence based on?

                        On knowledge of materiel

                        Quote: nks
                        It is such automation.

                        Again. it is not automation.

                        Quote: nks
                        This has no special relation to AZ

                        It has. With fully automatic loading, manual entry of the settings in the fuses is not possible.

                        Quote: nks
                        but they don’t do it now.

                        Is a dwarf sitting in the "tower" of the SPG "Archer" and turning the keys?


                        Quote: nks
                        This can also happen with AZ.

                        ?
                      2. nks
                        nks 22 June 2020 11: 58
                        -1
                        Quote: Spade
                        On knowledge of materiel

                        This is not an answer . There is specific data - show.

                        Quote: Spade
                        Again. it is not automation.

                        It’s your business (I, on the contrary, thought that this was an argument for you :) - a question of terminology. The important thing is that not the person sends out, but there is a spread according to your own words. No wonder - the equipment is of different quality.


                        Quote: Spade
                        Is a dwarf sitting in the "tower" of the SPG "Archer" and turning the keys?

                        Fuses in modern armies are exposed electronically and non-contact. The error is more likely with AZ in the ancient OMS, where most parameters are manually entered than with fully manual loading, but with a modern OMS, where essentially only the target coordinates are entered.

                        ?

                        AZ does not exclude the human factor. People are loading the shell into the shell, if the type determination is not automated, then a mistake is possible. An error is also possible at the operator level. Your case is nothing more than a poor organization - most likely the commander’s fault.
                      3. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 22 June 2020 14: 48
                        +2
                        Quote: nks
                        This is not an answer . There is specific data - show.

                        This is the answer. I could now pick up more school notes, but I'm lazy. Include common sense. It is not in vain that the artillery officers have been trying to achieve uniform efforts when ramming the projectile for so many years, and it is not in vain that they write in textbooks on the FCS "Changes in the initial velocity at each shot are also caused by unequal projectiles and differences in the mass of shells"

                        Quote: nks
                        The important thing is that not a person sends out, but there is a spread according to your own words.

                        No. Therefore, in fact, they are tormented with this. Despite the fact that the doselnik is much, much simpler, and mechanization of sending often even increases the loading time.

                        Quote: nks
                        Fuses in modern armies are exposed electronically and non-contact.

                        The Russian army is quite modern. But remote-controlled electronic fuses are the exception rather than the rule. Thanks to gigantic Soviet reserves.
                        But the emergence of the "Coalition" will definitely force one to abandon this principle.

                        Quote: nks
                        AZ does not exclude the human factor. People loading a shell into a shell if type determination is not automated

                        And if automated?
                      4. nks
                        nks 22 June 2020 15: 31
                        0
                        Quote: Spade
                        now raise more school notes

                        I believe that it says the same as the quote you quoted. Common sense certainly says that the closer the projectile is initially to the exit from the bore, the slower it will pick up, but unlike other aspects (with the same mass, everything is clear - it is used in the tables), there’s no further attention in these textbooks. not given. What is the real variation in the velocity of the projectile has manual sending - it is not clear.

                        Quote: Spade
                        No

                        I correctly understood that
                        when using rechargers in MSTA-B, there is no scatter (although again it is not clear whether you have specific data or not. Most likely there is no data, since you had nothing to measure), while you do not consider these rechargers to be elements of AZ?



                        Quote: Spade

                        But remote-controlled electronic fuses are the exception rather than the rule
                        ... And if automated?

                        So I’m talking about what I’m talking about - in the general case, it can happen in different ways, including some of the functions to ensure firing are not implemented in AZs at all, and there they can be implemented better. But Archer’s specific AZ is worse than the loader in that it does not allow charging from the ground.
                      5. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 22 June 2020 15: 47
                        0
                        Quote: nks
                        I believe that it says the same as the quote you quoted.

                        No, internal ballistics. The volume "floats", the initial velocity "floats".

                        Quote: nks
                        I correctly understood that
                        when using rammers in MSTA-B there is no scatter

                        With proper operation, no.

                        Quote: nks
                        Most likely there is no data, since you had nothing to measure)

                        Religion prohibits the use of ABS?

                        Quote: nks
                        at the same time you do not consider these rammers as elements of AZ?

                        laughing laughing laughing
                        Do you think the wheel of a wheelbarrow is an element of the car?

                        Quote: nks
                        in general, it happens differently

                        In the general case, "it happens in different ways." But with a fully automatic loading EXCLUSIVELY modern electronic
                      6. nks
                        nks 22 June 2020 16: 12
                        0
                        Quote: Spade
                        Religion prohibits the use of ABS?

                        I have a question for you. Measured, recorded? Got data?

                        Do you think the wheel of a wheelbarrow is an element of the car?

                        Again, the question is for you - decide already. It seems like it happens with your taxonomy that there is no AZ, but there is no scatter either.

                        Quote: Spade
                        But in the presence of a fully automatic charging EXCLUSIVELY modern electronic

                        Something you are completely confused :)))
  • Cowbra
    Cowbra 21 June 2020 09: 41
    -1
    A rare case when nothing superfluous is twisted. A mobile platform that throws the Chumadans, coupled with normal reconnaissance, for example, with drones, and in difficult terrain, it’s exactly wafer (
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 21 June 2020 16: 16
      +2
      Quote: Cowbra
      in difficult terrain
      Smiled. In impassable, but on wheels?
      Rather - easily crossed.
      1. Cowbra
        Cowbra 21 June 2020 16: 40
        +1
        As I understand it, here without roads and on tracks - will you drown? Moreover, faster than on wheels - you are heavier

        Hid behind the bend of the road - and throw the adversary on his head, he can’t cut it straight
        1. Simargl
          Simargl 21 June 2020 16: 50
          0
          Quote: Cowbra
          Moreover, faster than on wheels - you are heavier
          The problem of wheels - quickly burrow. At the same pressure on the ground.
          1. Cowbra
            Cowbra 21 June 2020 18: 13
            0
            So there is a swamp. Do not care, the wheel is not a wheel - along the roads or in any way. And in winter, IMHO equally about the wheel and goose odds. For black soil, I agree. But here it’s not at all black soil, at Sweden, there is no question of chukhonia at all - what is there besides the swamps?
            1. Simargl
              Simargl 21 June 2020 20: 32
              0
              Quote: Cowbra
              And in winter, IMHO equally about the wheel and goose odds.
              Wading through trees and bushes - you need a lot.

              Quote: Cowbra
              For black soil, I agree.
              If arable land - here the wild clearance is more important: the tanks in it get stuck. And for a field with flowers, the wheels will come off ... if it doesn't rain ...
              1. Cowbra
                Cowbra 21 June 2020 20: 44
                0
                Damn well in the Donbass, sawing on the field on wheels is generally nonsense, in the fall and spring. Such there will definitely fall on the belly right away, the BMP somehow rides, albeit hryunovo. And there is still a black soil with an addition, the soil there is different ...
                In general, hell knows about it, you rightly noticed patency, the goose - yes, but there are swamps ... How it thaws - only the roads, step right-step to the left, well, according to the dates, there was no further, and up to the ears in the swamp , moreover, the campaign is so everywhere in Scandinavia, where there are no mountains)
                But there’s still such a misfortune, I’m not a driver, just like that, 1 + 1 folded - it seems like it happened ... Ninai
                1. Simargl
                  Simargl 21 June 2020 21: 00
                  0
                  Quote: Cowbra
                  but there are swamps ...
                  In the swamps - winter road or swamp.

                  Quote: Cowbra
                  But there’s such a disaster, I’m not a driver,
                  Me too, but there are swamps around me ... and I saw a tank and an armored personnel carrier on arable land (a long time ago, true) wassat
                  1. Cowbra
                    Cowbra 21 June 2020 21: 07
                    0
                    Well Duc. I cited black soil as an example of why - there, too, only along the roads are at war (those frog jumps - separately). Got out - sat down. But in the Donbass, at least not swamps, but there are natural swamps. Here, here you are - road vehicles, the goose on the road gives a head start in everything, plus it hits far, with reconnaissance ... There you can only oppose an air strike - they will knock out the equipment on the road. infantry in the swamp 10 km will be with a mat and a light rifleman, which does not care for an armored cabin - crawl for 6 hours if they are Rambo with fins instead of legs. And what to do with them without "winged eagles"?
                    and I saw a tank and an armored personnel carrier on arable land (a long time ago, true)
                    And I also saw a "tablet" -UAZ on the bottom dug in the Tula region, but I already drove it there, I just didn't understand how he managed to put an unloaded tablet on the bottom of a sandy loam on the ground, which was relatively normal? The land has not become scarce with talents laughing
                    1. Simargl
                      Simargl 21 June 2020 21: 16
                      +1
                      Quote: Cowbra
                      I cited the chernozem as an example of why - in the same place they also fight along the roads (those frog jumps - separately).
                      How much and what is needed to prevent this wheel drive on the road? Turn the canvas around, rain it and rest until the bulldozer is driven. And they can’t scatter far: for SRZO - sweetie.
                      1. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 21 June 2020 22: 11
                        +2
                        Quote: Simargl
                        How much and what is needed to prevent this wheel drive on the road?

                        Many things. All the same, the base is the Volvo A30D dump truck, which was created just to work on soft soils.

                        It’s just that when artillery is scarce, and this is exactly the case with the Swedes, operational mobility is important, which is quite difficult to provide with tracked chassis.

                        In addition, the mod - ACS "Archer" is protected from explosions, holds 6 kg under the wheel, and not only without the death / injury of personnel, but also without damage to the artillery unit
                      2. Cowbra
                        Cowbra 21 June 2020 22: 34
                        -2
                        Quote: Spade
                        but without damage to the artillery

                        I’ve heard a bike that minus any wheel - it’s possible to continue driving, but it’s OBSiKP
                      3. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 21 June 2020 22: 48
                        +2
                        Quote: Cowbra
                        I heard a bike

                        This requirement was such, not a bike. I don’t know if they fulfilled it or not.
                        And about the movement without a wheel in such a machine is impossible.
                      4. Cowbra
                        Cowbra 21 June 2020 22: 58
                        0
                        So I doubted, but then again - I’m not a mechanical driver.
                        And also:
                        Quote: Spade
                        6 kg holds under the wheel,

                        Oh. here I understand a little - and do not believe at all. Survive, yes, but then - the pathetic is on the ground, the remains of it. Although in the article - the weight of the mine. not centuries. And not equivalent. Cram the iron and hunting cartridge - 6 kilos - holds
                      5. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 22 June 2020 10: 04
                        +1
                        Quote: Cowbra
                        Oh. here I understand a little - and do not believe at all. To survive, yes, but further - the pathetic is on the ground, the remains of it.

                        Art part, not the base.
                      6. Cowbra
                        Cowbra 22 June 2020 10: 13
                        0
                        6 kilos of TNT equivalent for the first wheel - well, the simplest ... So I sharply doubt it. that the guano on the trailer doesn’t understand the wave Do you understand the 6 kilo mine? In one direction of the duplex, in the other wings, it seems - the Luftwaffe. Oh no, there was a herd of rhinos ... And flamingos ran around ...
              2. Simargl
                Simargl 22 June 2020 05: 43
                0
                Quote: Spade
                Many things. All the same, the base is the Volvo A30D dump truck, which was created just to work on soft soils.
                Those. a good hole with dirt and it still rides, even with an elongated base?
  • Carnifexx
    Carnifexx 21 June 2020 11: 23
    +2
    Archer just looks like a great car. Artillery of the 21st century, especially noticeable in the deployment / coagulation process. We would like
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 21 June 2020 13: 12
      +1
      Quote: Carnifexx
      Archer just looks like a great car. Artillery of the 21st century, especially noticeable in the deployment / collapse process

      Yes, she looked very attractive. But it is Acher who is absolutely not in demand. And not without reason.

      The problem is that the classic function of self-propelled guns is to support tank units, moving in the same order as them in high-tension conflicts. A wheeled chassis, even this one, is not suitable for this, not that cross, not that resistance to ambushes / mines.

      And in those cases when the tanks are not involved, simpler, lighter and cheaper systems with feed from the ground are convenient, if not towed, then the same Caesar.
      1. nks
        nks 22 June 2020 09: 50
        +1
        Quote: Octopus
        the classic function of self-propelled guns is support for tank units, movement in the same order as them

        You are confused with the anti-tank self-propelled guns of WWII times - it has nothing to do with the topic. Now it’s exactly the opposite - this is also evident from the regular organizational structure of the same tank units
        1. Octopus
          Octopus 22 June 2020 10: 39
          0
          What do you see by the regular structure of the American armored brigade, for example?
          1. nks
            nks 22 June 2020 10: 52
            +1
            in mixed battalions, where there are tanks, there is no artillery - she is in a separate art battalion
    2. Lopatov
      Lopatov 21 June 2020 18: 59
      +3
      Quote: Carnifexx
      Archer just looks like a great car.

      Only looks.
      Its huge problem is microscopic ammunition in an automated warhead.
  • Magic archer
    Magic archer 21 June 2020 14: 58
    +1
    Question. Where is the Coalition !? And why we do not have projects for placing 152 mm on wheels. After all, we once had experience operating Dana.
    1. Aleksandr72
      Aleksandr72 21 June 2020 16: 09
      +3
      Why not? Yes - in 2017 there were publications and the first photos of the Coalition-SV SPG on a wheeled (8x8) chassis. There was a publication on Topwar about this: https://topwar.ru/130587-poyavilos-pervoe-foto-kolesnoy-sau-koaliciya-sv-ksh.html. True, I have not heard anything about whether they are going to produce it, or at least about carrying out full-scale tests.
      And here is a photo of the 152 mm self-propelled howitzer on the Coalition-SV-KSh wheeled chassis:

      Although in my amateurish opinion in difficult environmental conditions (and this is still mildly said!) Russia, self-propelled guns on a wheeled chassis will not be very popular - not the characteristics of terrain on the road (and on roads that sometimes do not differ much from the same European off-road, too not ice).
    2. Simargl
      Simargl 21 June 2020 16: 56
      +1
      Quote: Magic Archer
      And why we do not have projects for placing 152 mm on wheels. After all, we once had experience operating Dana.
      There is an experience of 130 mm in the form of the Shore. For 30 years, then the military could come up with why they need 130 mm and 152 mm on wheels? Would be needed - ordered.
  • iouris
    iouris 21 June 2020 16: 18
    0
    Is "Northern Europe" like the Baltics? Well, yes, a cab will take you anywhere - GPS ...
    1. Sergej1972
      Sergej1972 21 June 2020 19: 00
      0
      The Baltic States now officially refers to Northern Europe.
  • nks
    nks 22 June 2020 09: 53
    +2
    CAESAR 8x8 has an ammunition load of 36 unitary shots

    Not unitary, but just separate ..
  • 5-9
    5-9 22 June 2020 11: 38
    0
    A high level of automation allows the K9 to shoot three shells in 15 seconds and from 6 to 8 shells in three minutes.

    Is that fun? With 10 shots per minute, Msta and 12 Coalitions? And PzG2000 is also like Msta ...
  • bulava
    bulava 21 July 2020 12: 47
    -1
    Only scare polar owls with these pukers.