Military Review

Kriegsmarine vs. Red Fleet: Possible Scenario

214

The question that I will try to consider here is inspired by the previous article (“On the role of the Soviet Navy in the Great Patriotic War”).


Yes, the answer to the question “And if” lies in the realm of fiction, and often not even scientific. Nevertheless, it makes sense to consider the Navy of the Red Army and Kriegsmarine in a hypothetical confrontation. Moreover, such a thing could easily take place.

And this is where we will begin. And really, where could the German and Soviet ships measure themselves?

First of all, in the Baltic. Moreover, the ships of both countries took part in the battles in the Baltic Sea as floating batteries. Let me remind you that the Second World War began precisely with the shots of the Schleswig-Holstein, an armadillo who had served Kaiser Germany in the Poles. And the Prince Eugen ended the war with shots at the advancing Soviet troops.

Kriegsmarine vs. Red Fleet: Possible Scenario

Of course, ours answered the same, regularly sending “greetings” (including German ones) to the soldiers of the Wehrmacht when the war came to us.


However, they did it sporadically. Ours are around and near Leningrad, the Germans are in East Prussia and further west.

Why - the answer is known. The Baltic Sea, in particular, the Gulf of Finland, was not in vain called "soup with dumplings." It was mined by ours, Germans, Finns, and some of the barriers remained from before the war, and some were "fresh". Plus, the Germans also added submarine network barriers.

In general, the operation to mine the Baltic fleet was very successful. That only confirmed the loss on mines at the BF in the early days of the war. Despite the fact that the Germans put mines especially without hiding.

And everyone was happy with everything. The Germans and Swedes dragged iron ore along the sea, meeting the needs of the Reich, the Finns waged their strange war, ours sat in Kronstadt and waited for the Luftwaffe raids.

If suddenly our admirals decided to shut off the oxygen (more precisely, iron) to the Germans, for this it was necessary to really try and clear the barriers so that both surface and submarine ships could be brought to the operational space.


And that was real. Remove the Porkkala-Udd barrier - and you could do things in the Baltic puddle in full.

At the beginning of the war, the Baltic Fleet had 24 minesweepers. In general, enough for mine clearance.

But minesweepers would need cover, both ship and air. For this, the BF had everything. Both ships and planes.

Composition: 2 battleships, 2 light cruisers, 2 leaders of destroyers, 19 destroyers (12 "sevens" and 7 "Novikov"), 68 submarines and 95 boats.

Also, aviation the fleet was also quite confident in such a formation. 725 aircraft, 188 torpedo bombers and bombers, 386 fighters and 151 seaplanes.

This is power? This is power. Especially if you imagine how to hit her. In our case, the fleet is not a fleet, but a squadron to disperse shipping on the route "Sweden - Germany" easily recruited. And then the Germans would have to react in full.

And what could the Nazis put up?

In numbers, everything is very confident. We immediately remove the drowned, that is, Bismarck, Blucher, Admiral Count Spee, Karlsruhe and Koenigsberg, since at the time of June 22.06.1941, XNUMX they were rusting safely somewhere, but below sea level.

But what was left would be enough to try to interfere.

3 battleships, 4 heavy cruisers, 4 light cruisers, 2 armadillos, 19 destroyers, 57 submarines.

All aviation (except seaplanes) was under the jurisdiction of Goering. German could be generous, but he might not give as many planes as would be required to counteract BF aviation. Policy…

As you can see, the Kriegsmarine figures seem to look cooler, but ... This is the ENTIRE composition of the German fleet!

Yes, of course, the German fleet looks more impressive in numbers than the Baltic Fleet. And it is clear that the German battleships were superior in head to the ancient "Sevastopol" BF. Alas, the Marat and the October Revolution were only old battleships of the pre-war construction.

Only war was World War I, not World War II. That is, in fact, they were nothing more than floating batteries (and Marat also re-qualified Rudel and the company as non-self-propelled), with scanty air defense, naturally, without a radar.

Plus, the 305 mm guns of the Russian battleships fired 7 km closer than the 380 mm Tirpitz guns and the 283 mm Scharnhorst guns.

Speed, armor, radars, firing range - are all on the side of the Germans and prospects not observed?

Moving on.

We did not have heavy cruisers, the Germans had 4 light and 2 against 26, but the question was who was worse: our projects XNUMX or the German Cologne, Leipzig and Nuremberg. “Emden” I immediately pushed aside, this old trough could only be listed as a cruiser.

And here I would definitely put on our “Kirov” and “Gorky”, because they were armed stronger than the Germans, and on occasion the alignment could be sad for the German cruisers.

Alas, the advantage in the form of “Hipper”, “Sheer”, “Eugen” and “Deutschland” has not been canceled.


The destroyers are equally divided, the German “1936” had some advantage, but not critical.

Submarines - wow, that’s the power on the BF side.

The whole problem of Kriegsmarine is that the Germans fought on three fronts at once. The British had to be pulled, and this was mainly a violation of the supply of the metropolis with colonies and an ally of the United States. Both in the Atlantic and elsewhere. Then the North was added in full.

In the end, what could the Germans exhibit in the Baltic? Especially considering that the BF had more submarines at the start of the countdown than all Kriegsmarines? Yes, the Germans built more than a thousand boats during the war, but that was all after. And the boats were supposed to sink ships that brought the British everything, from steel to meat.

And little by little a picture is drawn of what could have been, but what did not happen.

Instead of isolating itself in Kronstadt, the Baltic Fleet is clearing barriers, especially since many mines have already been discovered during the Tallinn campaign.


Minesweepers begin their work under the cover of destroyers, cruisers and battleships loom in the distance. Just in case, because all that the Germans can quickly transfer from Polish ports are the old troughs “Schlesien” and “Schleswig-Goldstein”, standing in Polish ports. Which are quite the same age as Oktyabrina and Marat (the latter is still on the move, as it were), which means that 8 x 280 mm versus 24 x 305 mm do not look very good. And the German 150-mm guns of cruisers and armadillos are not a very large counterbalance to the 180-mm and 130-mm guns of Soviet ships.

Of course, in the event that such a real threat as the clearing with the subsequent release of ALL Baltic Fleet submarines to hunt for ore carriers was discovered, the Germans would move like a heavy bomb. This is clear.

Another question is that hunting for such an underwater squadron is not the greatest pleasure. Too many ships would have to be sent to guard the ore carriers, form convoys, and so on. That is, to do everything that the allies did for the Soviet Union.

Yes, a well-guarded convoy is a toughie. Incidentally, it was proved by the same Scharnhorst, whose commander took a very zealous approach to smashing the JW-55 convoy. But the British fleet could afford such things as escorting a convoy with a battleship and three cruisers, which broke off the Scharnhorst horns until they were completely destroyed.

Could the Germans afford this?

Purely theoretically. Without own aviation in sufficient quantities, without any advantages over the enemy, and, as you see, they were not there, moreover, do not forget about the war on at least two fronts.

Convoys, then, are not a German business. Accordingly, it would be necessary to destroy the problem in the bud, that is, to arrange Moonsund on the contrary. Assemble a squadron and try to stop clearance.

And here Her Majesty Aviation enters the scene.


The artillery duel of the First World War is, of course, fascinating and beautiful in its grandeur.

The Second World War was already taking place in a completely different scenario. The battle of Narvik is more likely the exception, as is the battle at Savo Island between the Japanese and the Americans, which are united by the fact that they took place without the participation of aviation. As well as the mockery of Scharnhorst and Gneisenau over Glories. Normal exceptions, but exceptions.


In our case, when both sides had plenty of airdromes and airplanes, the question was only in the capricious Baltic weather, which could really land both our aces and German.

There are numbers on BF aviation, what did the Luftwaffe have on the Eastern Front?


German aviation on the Eastern Front was represented by the 2nd Air Fleet consisting of 954 bombers (Ju.88 - 520, He.111 - 304, Do.17 - 130), 312 dive bombers Ju.87. Fighter aircraft - 920 Bf. 109 of all modifications and 90 Bf. 110, that is, 1100 units.

Yes, our sailors are becoming more modest, 725 aircraft, (188 torpedo bombers and bombers, 386 fighters and 151 seaplane). But who said that land aviation could not be involved? It could be used, yes, land pilots did not have such experience flying over the sea, but who said that all Germans had docks in this?

And then, the Germans' figure is almost ALL Luftwaffe aviation on the Eastern Front. Yes, one could add from Norway 5 air fleets and there was still the 1st air fleet in the north, small in composition, logically transferred later to the command of the Courland. Three squadrons on Ju.88 and one on Bf.109F (Green Hearts, JG54). That is, about 300-400 bombers and 120 fighter jets.

In turn, the Air Force of the Leningrad Military District from among the air divisions located near the district, for example, 39 IAD (Pushkin), 54 IAD (Levashovo), 41 BAA (Gatchina), 2 BAA (Staraya Russa), numbering another 848 fighters and 376 bombers , something could be allocated to help the fleet.

And there could well be an air battle, not inferior in intensity and mass to the air battles in the Kuban in 1943. And it is not a fact that success would be on the side of the Germans, the difference in numbers was clearly in favor of the Red Army Air Force. The question was only in management and command.

That is, in the case of flying weather, the side whose aviation would have acted more effectively really won.

The Germans, from my point of view, were masters in creating an advantage in a separate sector of the front by aviation. And very beautifully they got a transfer. A variant of such a transfer in our case is quite possible, but all this would be at the expense of other sectors of the front. That is - for the benefit of us.

Nevertheless, to create a group of aircraft to cover a large squadron is a troublesome business. The more ships, the more targets. And don’t say that more barrels of anti-aircraft artillery, on the “Prince of Wales” and “Ripals” also thought so, but it won’t work out ...

Another question is that the quality of mine-torpedo aircraft of the Red Army was very doubtful. There was practically no practice, the war showed that our torpedo bombers, frankly, are very far from ideal. By ideal, I mean pilots capable of getting a torpedo into a ship.


Yes, our pilots tried to hit torpedoes on some steamers with a very modest displacement throughout the war. There were no other goals, there was nothing to be done. Nevertheless, one would certainly not have counted on successful torpedo attacks at the beginning of the war.

On the other hand, with proper control, Soviet fighter aircraft could well repel the Luftwaffe and protect airspace from German bombers. Accordingly, to enable the BF ships to perform the demining task.

So, we have two factors that can level the work of the Luftwaffe. This is the whimsical Baltic weather and our own aviation. Both factors are completely imagined, I personally have the highest opinion of both. And the weather could be selected for the operation with the highest level of abomination, and the aircraft could work out pretty well. In theory.

But here there is a nuance.

Well, rain, fog, low cloudiness, the Luftwaffe and ours are sitting on airfields, the ships go to mine, the Germans have no choice but to crawl out too.

And here such a nuisance is drawn. Yes, the absence of the Luftwaffe is good. Especially in 1941. But there is a more unpleasant absence. I'm talking about the radar in Soviet ships.

Well, if the ancient German armadillos converge with no less than the ancient Soviet dreadnoughts. It will be peculiar, but not very deadly. Throwing suitcases “to whom God will send” in the fog and all. They fought, covered, counteracted.

But what about Scharnhorst and Gneisenau? Admiral Scheer? I simply won’t believe in Tirpitsa in the Baltic, it’s a little narrow, and then, should someone frighten the English on the other side? But the three named gentlemen above the roof to spoil the mood, because with the radars on them a complete order.


That is, in the conditions of disgusting weather, the Germans will shoot at radars, fortunately, we have already learned, but here we are ... And we will shoot at the level of the First World War, that is, by visual detection.

That turned out to be a very strong scenario. Good weather is bad, because the Luftwaffe can do things. Bad weather is also not very, because on the side of the Germans there are more heavy ships, and these ships are better equipped technically.

The large firing range of the German 380 mm and 283 mm guns generally puts the whole venture at risk. And with radars and even more so. 7 kilometers of difference is a lot.

Of course, it’s difficult to guess at the coffee grounds how the German command would react to such an operation. As well as fantasizing about how real such an operation would be.

In fact, the Baltic Fleet was completely isolated at its base in Leningrad, and in fact only submarines and boats participated in the war. By the way, the loss of submarines in the Baltic was significant: 27 out of 68. This is a lot, given that most of the boats died on land mines.

Could a fleet release operation be carried out? Can. Could she succeed? Could. But only with a good study and command. Could the Germans organize a shock detachment of ships and disrupt the operation? Could. But only if intelligence had recognized everything in advance.

The fact is that from the main naval base of the German fleet Wilhelmshaven to the place of this hypothetical operation about 2 kilometers. Through the Danish straits, where you’ll not be particularly dispersed.

And there is such a consideration that the Germans might not have time to start the operation or even come to an end. 2 km - go cruising for almost three days. And it’s cruising to go, because the fuel will be needed for maneuvering and battle, and you should not be distracted somehow by refueling, because the enemy will not wait.

It is clear that no one canceled reconnaissance flights, nor did the Finns. And the exit of a large detachment of ships would hardly have gone unnoticed. But what could be opposed to him, except for aviation?

It turns out that nothing special. It is clear that the German fleet did not stand all in Wilhelmshaven with full tanks and cellars and did not wait for the command to go east. Some ships on campaigns, some in repairs, and so on. It is difficult to say how many and whom it was possible to disrupt by alarm, although by digging through a bunch of documents, one could calculate.

But the ships must be prepared, this is not cavalry after all. And three days on the road. And it would be quite possible to sail in the literal sense of the word to a hat analysis. And see the Soviet ships leaving back. And just imagine in terrible dreams submarines and surface ships spreading all over the Baltic, which now would have to be caught and drowned by all possible methods.

A very interesting scenario could have turned out. But история completely wrong, and the Baltic Fleet passively stood from 1941 to 1944 at the berths. Alas.

For my part, I perfectly understand the Soviet admirals. The events of that war showed the degree of absolute unpreparedness of the command of the Baltic Fleet in particular, since we are talking about it.

The passage along completely unexplored routes during the evacuation of the fleet from Tallinn, accompanied by huge losses, the fear of a mine threat and the fear of the Luftwaffe did their job: the fleet was blocked by the admirals themselves, and for three years no attempt was made to somehow change the situation.

It would be possible to carry out an operation to block ore carriers in the Gulf of Bothnia, but ... History does not know the subjunctive moods, because the Baltic Fleet stood up all the war on jokes, and German and Swedish ore carriers regularly dragged the finest and richest ore from the Kirunavara deposits to Germany.

Although the scenario could have taken place in real life. But this is already a question for the command of the fleet.
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  1. Demagogue
    Demagogue 31 May 2020 05: 06 New
    33
    The Finnish fleet in the Winter War could not be destroyed, which Germans ...
    1. Revolver
      Revolver 31 May 2020 06: 17 New
      +4
      Winter is not the best time for a fleet in the Baltic. Water at freezing temperatures tends to freeze, and then there was no smell of global warming, that winter was harsh, and warships were not icebreakers. And to the melting of the ice, the issue has already been resolved.
      1. knn54
        knn54 31 May 2020 09: 21 New
        11
        And where does the winter.
        During the Winter War (1939-1940), Turku was bombed 70 times.
        BOTH of the Finnish coastal battleship remained intact, and ours lost 8 aircraft.
        Tributs and Co. REALLY were not up to par.
        1. Dr. Frankenstucker
          Dr. Frankenstucker 31 May 2020 12: 17 New
          +1
          Quote: knn54
          Tributs and Co. REALLY were not up to par.


          and what do you want from a nominee who in two years made a career from the beginning. OBP fleet headquarters to com. KBF?
        2. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 31 May 2020 22: 36 New
          +2
          Quote: knn54
          Turku was bombed 70 times.
          BOTH of the Finnish coastal battleship remained intact, and ours lost 8 aircraft.

          But the German air defense cruiser banged, the goal is later than the Finnish Vanya-Manya laughing

          Well, yes, one of the Finnish BBOs was still drowned on the mines of the Baltic. So what about "BOTH remained intact" you got excited.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 1 June 2020 11: 11 New
            +4
            Quote: Saxahorse
            But the German air defense cruiser banged, the goal is later than the Finnish Vanya-Manya

            From the second time, after, EMNIP, weeks of combat training. Because it suddenly turned out that the pilots of the dive-bomber regiment do not know how to bomb from a dive.
        3. DeKo
          DeKo 9 July 2020 18: 36 New
          0
          Tributs coward, scoundrel and alarmist. In 41, he threw troops in. Tallinn to the mercy of fate
    2. Civil
      Civil 31 May 2020 13: 09 New
      +1
      Aviation would decide everything, in any scenario. As decided in what happened.
    3. konchitawurst
      konchitawurst 1 June 2020 07: 47 New
      +1
      Why? Ilmarinnen, for example, caught a mine with a paravane and adhered to it with a side, sank the poor thing
    4. Victor Leningradets
      Victor Leningradets 1 June 2020 12: 25 New
      -3
      But such a task was not posed at all.
      Nerds from the Comintern, not finished by I.V. Stalin, as in 1920, hoped for proletarian internationalism. Well, an easy occupation walk was thought, and the Finnish fleet had to raise red flags and move against its class enemies.
      Repetition - Mother of Learning!
      1. Dr. Frankenstucker
        Dr. Frankenstucker 1 June 2020 12: 58 New
        -1
        Quote: Victor Leningradets
        Nerds from the Comintern, not finished by I.V. Stalin, as in 1920, hoped for proletarian internationalism.


        what nonsense. Stalin did not count on any "red flags" and proletarian solidarity. He counted exclusively on 24 divisions of the LMO. And what have the "cretins from the Comintern" to do with it? Kuusinen has been drying crackers for a long time, and instead of a wall, he was made the chairman of the government of the cartoon FDR.
  2. Comrade
    Comrade 31 May 2020 05: 39 New
    25
    At the very beginning of the article, there is a photograph of a wake column of American ships, in the head of which is the battleship "Pennsylvania" - what does it mean that they were given to us under Lend-Lease?
    Further, we see clearly post-war destroyers, on the decks of which missile launchers are guessed.

    The author is taken "give some cosmic advice", but he himself cannot distinguish American battleships from German ones.
    1. Asad
      Asad 31 May 2020 05: 53 New
      +6
      I completely agree with you, especially the criticism of actions after 80 years!
    2. mmaxx
      mmaxx 31 May 2020 06: 01 New
      +3
      So this is Chinese. Here is a photo!
    3. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 31 May 2020 07: 06 New
      +5
      I don't even want to comment - after all, if you "turn on the fantasy mode", then you can argue and speculate endlessly.
      But for myself, I found out that an alternative story is not my genre.
    4. Sergey S.
      Sergey S. 31 May 2020 13: 02 New
      +2
      Quote: Comrade
      Further, we see clearly post-war destroyers, on the decks of which missile launchers are guessed.

      These are Chinese destroyers.
    5. BAI
      BAI 31 May 2020 13: 50 New
      +3
      Further, we see clearly post-war destroyers, on the decks of which missile launchers are guessed.

      But this photo is correct. These are the ships of the Baltic Fleet during the defense of Tallinn (Tallinn Crossing). https://perehod.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/3.-11964103-1024x685.jpg
      Here, too, something similar is visible.
    6. Catfish
      Catfish 31 May 2020 15: 33 New
      +1
      Everything is correct. I first drew attention to this ship, the installation of anti-aircraft missiles immediately caught my eye.

      Similar to our project like "Riga", or obviously licked off from it.
  3. andrewkor
    andrewkor 31 May 2020 05: 44 New
    10
    Well, our novelist is a dreamer. I would have to scribble it. At Alternathistory there are a lot of such people, they are hungry with each other, who will re-fantasize. Scholars who are erudite!
    1. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 31 May 2020 09: 26 New
      +6
      Quote: andrewkor
      Erudite schizos!

      Well no. Article is not about BF, article about Roman. About how smart he is. And it was written just for this. And in order to show how stupid and cowardly was the command of the KBF.
  4. mmaxx
    mmaxx 31 May 2020 06: 03 New
    +5
    All this is interesting. But we now know where which barriers are. And then? The Baltic is small)), but you will not trawl everything. After the war, in calm conditions, it was trawled for several years.
    1. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
      Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 31 May 2020 08: 04 New
      14
      Not several years, but several decades! We lived in an apartment (dad studied at the Telecommunications Academy in Leningrad at that time) on Tikhoretsky, and the owner was a legless sailor from the fleet - his legs were lost when a ship was blown up during mine clearance in 1965. And then the mines still sailed ...
      1. mmaxx
        mmaxx 31 May 2020 08: 56 New
        +2
        Well yes. I don’t have exact data. They just figured out the trade routes first. I won’t be surprised if they didn’t touch everyone until the end. Purely on the resource of minreps, etc.
  5. Revolver
    Revolver 31 May 2020 06: 14 New
    -17
    Well, if all the smart admirals and senior officers were shot by the rrrr-revolutionary sailors and the Cheka even before Stalin had established himself at the top, so you can't blame him especially in the naval executions, in contrast to the army and political departments. And the fleet is not cavalry or infantry, I myself do not know what was required of the naval command back then, but obviously a little more than "Checkers under the height! March-march!" or "Left-Right!"
    And a serious ship to build is not a cavalry stallion to grow from a foal, and not even a tank to make. It takes time, technological base, materials, and also the ability to design, build, and use ships. And those admirals who steered the Baltic Fleet under the tsar and the command of the cruiser would not be allowed. So they met the war with the remnants of the tsarist fleet, worn out since then, and by admirals who did not understand what they could and should do, and therefore they were terribly afraid to do anything. What if garbage comes out, do we lose ships? For this, after all, they can shoot !!!
    But, if even the submarines had cleared the way, the Gustloffs would have gurgled a lot more, and even more important would have gurgled transports with ore. Well, the truth could have provoked the Swedes to join the side of Germany, they would hardly have been idle and watched as their vehicles were drowned. What was there with the Swedes in the Baltic then?
    1. Baron pardus
      Baron pardus 31 May 2020 07: 30 New
      13
      Yeah, tsarist admirals would steer. Is it not the same time as the tsarist admirals whom the Japanese rolled into a pancake? Or maybe those tsarist admirals who were hiding from the Kaiser's fleet? Or maybe those tsarist admirals who, on the report on the order in France of electric spark plugs for submarines, imposed an INSANE resolution "French electric candles will be too expensive, use our wax candles" ... Well, the communists have not shot enough of these admirals yet. With such admirals-samotopes, you can immediately surrender .. Well, we did not have either Nimitz or Doenitz.
      1. Revolver
        Revolver 31 May 2020 09: 36 New
        +1
        Well, at least this one:
        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Щастный,_Алексей_Михайлович
        True, not the admiral, but of the entire caperang, but he ordered the Baltic Fleet. Withdrew in 1918, the fleet from Helsingfors, from under the nose of the Finns and Germans, to Kronstadt. Through the ice. And in gratitude he was shot.
        1. Dr. Frankenstucker
          Dr. Frankenstucker 31 May 2020 11: 24 New
          -1
          Withdrew in 1918, the fleet from Helsingfors, from under the nose of the Finns and Germans, to Kronstadt.


          Tributs also took him from Tallinn to Kronstadt with known results. It is strange that he was not spanked "in gratitude."
          Evacuations do not win the war (s)
        2. Baron pardus
          Baron pardus 31 May 2020 18: 07 New
          +3
          Medals "For honorary drape" are not issued. Kesselring - an exception - did an excellent defensive retreat operation. The reeling of fishing rods does not win wars. Consider it according to Schweik - to surrender and then, returning from captivity, with the most honest and open eyes, to say "Here I am back, and again I am ready to serve the Sovereign - the Emperor." And let's figure it out when the "unfortunate and innocent high-class specialists" were shot? And who? Communists on the orders of Lenin? Small bosses from yesterday's downtrodden stupid peasants on the "From rags to riches" system? Esery? Anarchists who were shot during the interim government and Kerensky. Whom were slapped by the "sailors" who were drunk to a bestial state. And why did they spank? For the fact that the officer wanted to lead them into battle and they did not want? Or for the fact that before the Revolution this admiral loved to give the sailors a denture personally? Enough of both. The result is the same - in the 20th century, the Russian and Soviet navies did not particularly show themselves. From the word NO.

          Under the king, the fleet was destroyed, both financially and at the highest level, during the civil war, EVERYTHING was destroyed. Well, shipbuilding and the fleet cannot be taken out of nowhere, and they cannot be created in 22 years. It is possible to train the commanders of destroyers and cruisers. But to create a SCHOOL of Admirals - no. And it is difficult to create a shipbuilding school. Who made projects for both destroyers and cruisers for the Soviet fleet? Italians. Even the French went to bow, but they broke too high a price. So, before WWII, they could not make any particularly outstanding ships themselves, they bought mainly abroad (as well as artillery, aircraft engines, and even rifles), and then in 22 years we will create both a school of large shipbuilding and a school for naval commanders? It doesn't work that way. There is no foundation. Damn, "Ingenious imperial crunching admirals" were rolled into a thin pancake by the Japanese. Which very recently came out of punt. Well, yes, the British BUILD ships for them, and helped build them. But the Japanese fleet was not led by an Englishman, and officers and sailors were NOT Englishmen serving on the ships. Both the commanding officers and officers and enlisted personnel of the Japanese fleet showed themselves not only a head, 3 heads higher than the "God-fearing fleet of the king of father" (also a lover of tormenting cats).

          And even in World War II, if there had not been a banal jamb with a connection on a Japanese intelligence officer, the Americans would have blown Midway. and I think after that they would have asked for a separate peace because BEFORE the battle of Midway, the morale was at the level of the plinth. Blow through the Americans and this battle, they lose esche 2-3 aircraft carriers - that's all. Aircraft carriers can be riveted. Tea America is not Russia, but to train the pilots, those personnel and sailors, not to mention the admirals - this time is necessary, and fighting spirit. Slay the US battle of Midway - they would ask for peace, which, in fact, the Japanese counted on.
          1. ser56
            ser56 31 May 2020 21: 37 New
            -1
            Quote: Baron Pardus
            There is only one result - in the 20th century, the Russian and Soviet fleets did not particularly show themselves. From the word NO.

            only in your head from ignorance of factology ... request
          2. Revolver
            Revolver 1 June 2020 05: 20 New
            +1
            Quote: Baron Pardus
            And let's figure it out when the "unfortunate and innocent high-class specialists" were shot? And who? Communists on the orders of Lenin? Small bosses from yesterday's downtrodden stupid peasants on the "From rags to riches" system? Esery? Anarchists who were shot during the interim government and Kerensky. Whom were slapped by the "sailors" who were drunk to a bestial state.

            It was different. Kolchak, for example, was lowered into an ice-hole by Soviet leaders at the regional or even district level. And Shchastny was shot at the filing of the personally ardent rrr-revolutionary Trotsky, simply because he was more popular in the navy than Trotsky himself. In any case, the "bloody dictator" Stalin at that time either led the People's Commissariat for Nationalities, or commissar in the defense of Tsaritsyn, and had nothing to do with the naval executions. And the "bloody executioner" Beria in general at that time was a local party worker in the Caucasus.
            PS Definitions invented by liberalists are quoted, which I personally do not share.
            1. Baron pardus
              Baron pardus 1 June 2020 06: 27 New
              +2
              Kolchak, of course, was a great military naval commander and an absolutely innocent sheep who did not give a single criminal order. Here are the Herods, the Bolsheviks. Russian Nelson was exhausted.
          3. Revolver
            Revolver 1 June 2020 05: 36 New
            +1
            Quote: Baron Pardus
            Slay the US battle of Midway - they would ask for peace, which, in fact, the Japanese counted on.

            At that time, Essex and Iowa were already on the stocks in varying degrees of readiness, so the maximum that the Japanese could count on was IJN's freedom of hands for several months within the Pacific Ocean. Well, maybe they would have captured Hawaii. They would not have approached the US coast for a cannon shot, even with the Yamato's main caliber, because shore-based aviation has a much longer range, and, unlike Japan, everything was in order with the US radars. And then the Japanese would be stupidly crushed by the quantity and level of technology. Because the Essexes, each individually, were stronger than any Japanese aircraft carrier, and Zero had no chance against the Hellcat, even with a super duper ace in the cockpit against a mediocre pilot. Japan would simply have held out for perhaps six months or a year longer, which would not necessarily be of any benefit to it. Because in this case, only Hiroshima and Nagasaki could not do.
            1. Baron pardus
              Baron pardus 1 June 2020 05: 52 New
              -1
              I ask you to forgive me if I tell you the elementary truths that you already know. But the Japanese were NEVER going to land in the USA, they wanted to kick the Americans in the Mordas so that they would ask for peace. CLEARLY understanding that they will not be able to invade the United States. If you read memoirs, then before Midway, the mood of Americans is about the level of the plinth. NOBODY wanted to fight. If the Americans had blown Midway, I think they would not have resisted and asked for peace. The Americans more than once or twice showed "resilience" when they got on the mordas at least on some permanent basis. I'm ashamed to talk about it, but the joke "An American rifle is on sale, they've never fired from it and dropped it once" didn't just appear. Americans fight EXCELLENT as long as they gain at least some victories or even play a draw. But when they have a series of defeats, the desire to fight somehow decreases STRONGLY. "The United States is not in danger, nothing threatens me personally. What for?" You are ABSOLUTELY right that you can rivet aircraft carriers and licnors. Where can you get the crews? They need to be trained. I think if the Americans lost 3 aircraft carriers at Miduey, they would immediately start looking for options and contacts to get out of the war. Then the contacts of the United States with the Nazis, from Patriarch Kennedy, to Ford, and of course to a little noticeable person (under 190) with the nickname Putzi, would be useful. who was "guarded" by his own son. Such an inconspicuous unknown person. Who made an orator out of Hitler, introduced him to the right circles, saved him, and even his wife knocked out a pistol from Hitler when he conceived shootsTsa, such an inconspicuous art dealer from the USA .. Then all these contacts would be useful. Do you think just like that, neither Patriarch Kennedy nor other Natsiks especially touched? Just left "just in case"
              1. Revolver
                Revolver 1 June 2020 10: 05 New
                +2
                Quote: Baron Pardus
                you can rivet aircraft carriers and liquors. And where do you get the crews? They need to be trained.

                And where did you get the teams for all Essex and Iowa? They, if my memory serves me, did not suffer from the lack of commands. Completed as they were built. And there were crews for the cruisers, for the destroyers, and for the submarines, and these were generally baked like pies. And I still had enough of all sorts of "Liberty" to carry Lend-Lease to Murmansk.
              2. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 1 June 2020 11: 32 New
                +3
                Quote: Baron Pardus
                I'm ashamed to talk about it, but the joke "An American rifle is on sale, they've never fired from it and dropped it once" didn't just appear.

                Actually, this rifle was French. smile
                Quote: Baron Pardus
                You are absolutely right that you can rivet aircraft carriers and liqueurs. And where do you get the crews? They need to be trained.

                And where did the Yankees get their crews for all their Essexes, Independences, Iowas, Sodaki, NorKi and a crowd of escort AVs in RI? wink
                Quote: Baron Pardus
                I think if the Americans lost 3 aircraft carriers at Midway, they would immediately begin to search for options and contacts for getting out of the war.

                What is the way out of the war? They have three dozen AVs in their shipyards, a dozen LCs, a hundred EM - what to do with all this without a war for maintenance? Moreover, the assembly line for the construction of new ships is about to begin to produce production - in July 1942 the first Essex will be launched.
          4. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 1 June 2020 11: 24 New
            +2
            Quote: Baron Pardus
            And even in World War II, if there had not been a banal jamb with a connection on a Japanese intelligence officer, the Americans would have blown Midway. and I think after that they would have asked for a separate peace because BEFORE the battle of Midway, the morale was at the level of the plinth. Blow through the Americans and this battle, they lose esche 2-3 aircraft carriers - that's all. Aircraft carriers can be riveted. Tea America is not Russia, but to train the pilots, those personnel and sailors, not to mention the admirals - this time is necessary, and fighting spirit.

            What a separate world, when the Yankees have a second fleet in the Atlantic, and the third is preparing for launching at the shipyards? The United States did not provoke Japan to attack in order to sign peace with it without fulfilling the goals of the war. smile
            They need to hold out after Midway for six months - and they will have 20 naval aviation pilots a year, and the Hellcats with the Corsairs, and the Independences with the Essexes. And as for the admirals - in any case, they will have the "bull" Halsey.
      2. ser56
        ser56 31 May 2020 21: 35 New
        0
        Quote: Baron Pardus
        Or maybe those royal admirals who were hiding from the Kaiser fleet?

        but somehow it’s very good that the Germans were pressed by active mine productions ... laughing
    2. mmaxx
      mmaxx 31 May 2020 08: 59 New
      14
      The most interesting thing is that they shot admirals under the Provisional Government. But for some reason the Bolsheviks are to blame.
      1. WapentakeLokki
        WapentakeLokki 31 May 2020 17: 58 New
        +4
        ... well, the main wave of lynching in the fleet just after the February, um revolution .. recall at least Viren in Kronstadt ... well, gentlemen the sea achwitzer got .. for all the good .. and it touched, by the way, in the majority rear cases (..at if, for example, the crews of the Russian dreadnoughts had been in Helsinki for the whole war — you yourself will survive for 4 years without the shore of the aha) but as a part of the float and OLS, many officers defended the crews themselves ... so to speak. .that you sow it and ... in summary I will say that, in my opinion, the shadow of Tsushima settled forever over the RIF ... and, by the way, even in the Super Short-lived War of 1945 against Japan, the Pacific Fleet did not show itself .. (aha from the word in general .. Yes, and Yumatov was clearly not Ushakov .. was) .. and, again, in my opinion, the modern fleet of Russia clearly does not even reach the Japanese .. what can I say about the Britts or mattresses ... alas, the shadow of Tsushima is still over us..
      2. Baron pardus
        Baron pardus 31 May 2020 18: 10 New
        +6
        If there is no water in the tap, the Bolsheviks drank. If there is Bolshevik water in the tap ...... there ... Liberals from the Black Hundreds and other obscurantists are not very different in terms of mental development and mentality.
  6. strannik1985
    strannik1985 31 May 2020 06: 48 New
    +8
    And how, interestingly, the author presents the cover of the minesweeping forces as I-16 fighters (combat radius of 160-170 km) or Yak-1 (combat radius of 250-300 km)? Moreover, even if you select some planes for cover, keeping them all in the air will not work, trawling is not fast, fuel will be released sooner.
    Without touching the topic of covering BNK from the air in the open sea.
    The KBF did not sit in Kronstadt from a good life, the army lost its base in a matter of weeks, the second most important city found itself in a blockade, there was no time for the breakthrough of barriers.
  7. saigon
    saigon 31 May 2020 06: 52 New
    +5
    Excuse me, what kind of artillery radars do hans have on ships?
    In the time period you brought, they had radars of general detection and firing in the adversary with the help of these radars did not give anything, they did not take bursts of shells.
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 31 May 2020 16: 13 New
      +4
      Quote: saigon
      Excuse me, what kind of artillery radars do hans have on ships?
      In the time period you brought, they had radars of general detection and firing in the adversary with the help of these radars did not give anything, they did not take bursts of shells.

      Yes, in general, what are they like everyone else ...
      The distance error of the FuMO-23 / FuMO-27 is comparable to the British type 284 (50 ... 70 m), the bearing is much worse (3 degrees versus 1 ... 0,5) ...
      Bursts learned to see only in the 44th on the American Mk.13.
      Ours in September 41 did not have radars at all ("Redoubt" on "Molotov" does not count).
      1. saigon
        saigon 31 May 2020 17: 20 New
        +2
        German radar was a common finding. and there are no examples that in 41-42 was used to control artillery fire.
        And it is true that the British exceeded the Germans of the Germans in radio electronics.
        1. Macsen_wledig
          Macsen_wledig 31 May 2020 17: 40 New
          +1
          Quote: saigon
          German radar was a common finding. and there are no examples that in 41-42 was used to control artillery fire.

          There is an example from 40: during the attack on the WS5A convoy in December 1940, the Hipper used a radar to provide target designation not only for artillery fire, but also for torpedo fire.
          According to the memoirs of Baron Müllenheim-Regberg, the Bismarck used a radar to issue target designations for the Norfolk ...
  8. Fitter65
    Fitter65 31 May 2020 07: 24 New
    12
    our torpedo bombers, frankly, are very far from ideal. By ideal, I mean pilots capable of getting a torpedo into a ship.
    I would not rush to the place of the author with words, at people who have adequately fulfilled their duty.
    By October 1944, the Guard, Senior Lieutenant V.I. Minakova, made 182 sorties, 71 of them at night. With bombing and torpedo attacks, he sunk 13 transports of the German naval forces (including 7 in person) with a total displacement of 36500 tons, 5 dry cargo vessels, 7 high-speed landing barges, 4 patrol boats, 1 minesweeper, 1 tugboat. One of the greatest achievements of a combat pilot during the liberation of Crimea was the sinking of May 10, 1944 as part of the German transport group Thea with a displacement of 2773 tons; on board were 3500 enemy soldiers and officers evacuated from Sevastopol. In addition, he destroyed 4 ammunition depots, 4 railway stations and the crossing of the Don. He shot down 4 Luftwaffe aircraft in aerial combat. For these exploits was presented to the title of Hero.

    Alexander Ivanovich Razgonin (1919-2012) - Soviet military pilot of naval aviation. Member of World War II. Hero of the Soviet Union (1944). Guard lieutenant colonel.
    List of famous naval victories of A. I. Razgonin
    № Date Type of watercraft Displacement, tons Attack area
    1 cargo ship "Heinrich von Plauen" 06.06.1943 1746 m west. cape colcasrags
    2 22.07.1943/8000/12 transport XNUMX XNUMX m south-west. Ruhnu Islands
    3 01.08.1943/5000/11 transport XNUMX XNUMX m southeast. cape colcasrags
    4/02.09.1943/9 the tanker Svea Ruyter [1336] 11 XNUMX m southeast. cape colcasrags
    5 16.09.1943 transport 3000 6 m north-east Naissaar Islands
    6 September 16.09.1943, 219 Finnish patrol ship Uisko XNUMX sowing Keri Islands
    Of course I don’t know what the author considers to be an ideal, but these people are real ideals. hi sorry for my printed
    1. WapentakeLokki
      WapentakeLokki 31 May 2020 18: 05 New
      +2
      ..interestingly, after the Second World War, someone compared the results of our torp attacks with the Kriegsmarine archives ... so as not to be unfounded, but then ... transport of 8000 tons (.. and there was such a lope in the hands of the decent ..) ... it's not a secret that in a war, to put it mildly, they exaggerate (and roughly speaking - they lie) .. and often unconsciously (well, how to take a barge for EM and BDB for Kr) .. but when you dig deeper - the picture is not so bravura .. alas
    2. Baron pardus
      Baron pardus 1 June 2020 06: 07 New
      0
      The war is won not by ASYs, but by "middle peasants" and the victory is determined by the level of such "middle peasants" and the number, the fact that the Imperial Navy had guys like Saburo Sakai, unfortunately, did not help the Japanese to hang the people and weaken the United States.
  9. Avior
    Avior 31 May 2020 07: 30 New
    +5
    Too alternate story :)
    The range of the fighter is small, the effectiveness of the organization of aviation, as shown by the Tallinn transition, is low.
    And, most importantly, the Germans would not have fought for the fleet, they would have managed aviation.
    We need something less alternative- historical, well, for example, a minesweeper based on a submarine.
    They pushed a secret passage in minefields under water, and freedom of action appeared in the submarine fleet.
    But the Germans do not know! smile
    1. Dr. Frankenstucker
      Dr. Frankenstucker 31 May 2020 14: 06 New
      +4
      Quote: Avior
      Too alternate story :)


      huh! Take it wider:

      "... at the" X hour "appointed by the commander of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet Admiral Skomorokhov, the minesweepers make a 2 nautical mile wide passage through the minefields, where, crowding the discouraged Finns, the invincible armada headed by both battleships of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet rushes. The sky is black with aviation .. ..After three days of a triumphant march, the battleship Marat bombarded Kiel. Tirpitz, hastily transferred to the Baltic, does not save the day - captain-zur-see Topp is killed on the bridge by an accidentally dropped PTB from a Soviet fighter ... Hitler lists Comrade Skomorokhov on the lists of his personal enemies, and Comrade Stalin appoints him Commander-in-Chief of the Navy for life ... "(alternative WikiBredia)
  10. Unknown
    Unknown 31 May 2020 07: 41 New
    +5
    Gulf of Finland, generally a difficult place for navigation. shallow waters, islands, stormy seasons, in autumn and spring, add complexity. It’s not without reason that the Tsar’s Admiral Essen created the mine-artillery system in World War I, just before entering the bay. and it should be noted that this system was based on the artillery batteries of the islands. but everything is flowing, everything is changing, a new kind of troops has appeared - aviation, which added a headache to all fleets, without exception. after the Baltic limitrophs joined the USSR, the Soviet state in a hurry began to build batteries on the islands, saarema and hiumaa, as well as on the island of osmussaar. airdromes were built at the Saarema, and from them flew to bomb Berlin. under an agreement with the Finns, the ball rental and the hanko peninsula .. so that the Gulf of Finland was controlled by us reliably. any fleet of potential adversaries would not break into the Gulf of Finland, and naturally to Peter. but the war broke out, and everything went wrong. tributs was out of place. with the loss of a naval base on the coast, the tribune himself and his headquarters seized, simply fear of the Germans. there was a profukana defense of the islands of saarema hyiumaa. then stupid evacuation from the hanko and garrison of the islands, hogland, big and small tyuters. The fleet then tried to recapture these islands the whole of 1942, without success on our part and the heavy losses of sailors and soldiers. as the author writes, the fleet could not trawl the bay at all, the Finnish batteries on the hogland and tuters, kept all the fairways under fire. the Germans had good communication with the Luftwaffe and Finnish aviation, on both sides of the bay. and we have one airport on the island of lavensaari, which miraculously did not pass in 1941. there are no options. the Germans all the middle of 1944, intensively carried out the evacuation of their forces from the islands in the Gulf of Finland, the Germans left the same Tyuters in the last days of September. the question is, where was our KBF? all winter and spring work, l Courland Express, as the Germans called transportation with
    Germany to Kurland, and vice versa. I drowned Marinesco ,, Gustlova ,, but it would be better if he drowned a “hipper”, who evacuated the entire headquarters of the 3-tank SS corps, and was part of that convoy, you look and the war ended early, two months, there would be no blow in Pomerania. but history does not tolerate the subjunctive mood, that was what happened. it was not the Baltic Fleet that showed itself badly, and the command was not fit for the devil.
    1. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
      Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 31 May 2020 08: 15 New
      +2
      Well, okay, the Baltic Fleet spent the whole war without sticking out ... But who prevented the Black Sea Fleet from hammering the whole war both Germans, Romanians, Turks, and Bulgarians? There, the sea is not shallow, and the size is larger, and there were many forces. However, they were not active either. Alas. I don’t want to alternativeize - I’m not a naval officer and I don’t know all aspects of naval science!
      1. strannik1985
        strannik1985 31 May 2020 08: 42 New
        +6
        However, they were not active either.

        In principle, the same thing, the fleet was knocked out of the main bases, so that maintenance and repair became complicated to the limit, plus the lack of air cover.
        1. Fitter65
          Fitter65 31 May 2020 13: 10 New
          +4
          Quote: strannik1985
          the fleet was knocked out of the main bases, so that maintenance and repair became complicated to the limit,

          Here, at least someone here thinks with his head !!! Even now, I just judge in my own way, a shift plane flew off in the TEC for check-maintenance. but the plane, we take oxygen-air-nitrogen, did not serve the khan flying. There are no spare parts at the RSP-10 yet, we don’t think about any take-off and lifting activities from Khabarovsk ... Therefore, it’s not enough to think about what we have, we still have to think about how we have it ... hi drinks
      2. saigon
        saigon 31 May 2020 10: 23 New
        +1
        Well, enemy aircraft interfered, and minefields (mine) and against whom it is interesting for Sevastopol to do something.
        Fuck someone and how?
        We tried firing along the coast of Romania to arrange a sad result.
        And you still have an interesting year 1945, the beginning of the war with Japan (what remains of the Japs from the fleet stands at the bases without fuel) The Pacific Fleet began military operations with minefields, I wonder why?
      3. timokhin-aa
        timokhin-aa 31 May 2020 10: 50 New
        +1
        And who prevented the Black Sea Fleet from slaughtering the whole Germans, and Romanians, and Turks, and Bulgarians? ... Nevertheless, they were not active either.


        And now the real world.
        https://topwar.ru/152300-realnyj-vklad-kakuju-rol-vmf-sygral-v-velikoj-otechestvennoj-vojne.html

        и

        https://vz.ru/society/2020/5/17/1039405.html
      4. WapentakeLokki
        WapentakeLokki 31 May 2020 18: 10 New
        0
        ... and citizen Ivanov (Oktyabrsky) waited the whole WWII for the approach of the Invincible Italian fleet (through the Bosphorus, etc.) and in a panic even mined all approaches to the ports (.. then our vehicles and ships died on mines) .. and the only the raid on Constanta ended in the death of Moscow (..then not yet Kr and the Leader of the EM) .. well, and after the Black Sea Fleet lost 3 EM right away in the fall, Stalin generally put all the large surface ships on a joke .. that's it ..
        1. Victor Leningradets
          Victor Leningradets 1 June 2020 12: 16 New
          0
          I could not help but mine. Fulfilled the directive MGSH.
          1. WapentakeLokki
            WapentakeLokki 1 June 2020 18: 48 New
            -1
            ... but to take a chance and justify all the savagery of this directive is weak ??? .. well, it’s clearly not Nelson with his story about the blind eye and spyglass .. where is there .. all the Soviet commanders have developed too much instinct .. their own skin .. more expensive ..and the sailors, yes, who are they there .. the beans still give birth ..
    2. Dr. Frankenstucker
      Dr. Frankenstucker 31 May 2020 13: 06 New
      -5
      judging by Dönitz’s memoirs, in which a very small chapter is devoted to the Baltic, this theater was the whole periphery of the war for the Kriegsmarine and was marked only by evacuation activity at the very end. Well, a brace such as the drowning of Gustlov and Goya tow trucks is, of course, all of us.
  11. pogis
    pogis 31 May 2020 08: 42 New
    +5
    In the Black Sea, the Germans did not have a fleet at all. However, the Black Sea Fleet did not help and ended up with the same self-isolation for him.
    1. timokhin-aa
      timokhin-aa 31 May 2020 11: 06 New
      +1
      You count the landing operations of the fleet at least for a start.
      1. ser56
        ser56 31 May 2020 21: 41 New
        0
        useless request the command of our fleet in the Second World War made quite a few mistakes, but compared with the Red Army 41-42 were just pros ... request And the article is an order, not the first in this vein ... hi
        1. Victor Leningradets
          Victor Leningradets 1 June 2020 12: 15 New
          +1
          I do not agree!
          Some, but the land generals of 1941 led the troops into battle. They got into the "boilers", in vain they lost materiel, but they attacked, fettered, covered, and thereby gained time for those, then it will come and turn the tide.
          The naval command has mastered the maximum that it has mastered - the evacuation of ground forces pressed to the sea. If in Odessa and Hanko it turned out to be the top five, then in Tallinn - by a triple, and in Sevastopol - by a shameful count!
          The supply of Sevastopol was virtually a failure, the struggle on communications — the wall newspaper, and the sea amphibious assaults — were dummies and losses. At the same time, the courage of surface sailors, submariners and pilots is beyond doubt! They just spent it without much result.
          Special attention should be paid to the counter-battery struggle of the fleet in the defense of Leningrad. The considerable contribution of professional artillerymen somehow rehabilitates the fleet. But the same result could be achieved due to floating and railway batteries with the corresponding number of barrels, and the costs of their construction and maintenance are not comparable with the ships.
          1. timokhin-aa
            timokhin-aa 1 June 2020 12: 30 New
            +1
            The naval command has mastered the maximum that it has mastered - the evacuation of ground forces pressed to the sea. If in Odessa and Hanko it turned out to be the top five, then in Tallinn - by a triple, and in Sevastopol - by a shameful count!


            Landing forces forgotten?

            Supply of Sevastopol - actually failed


            Give an example of a similar failure in any other fleet, so that at least a couple of months in the same conditions would supply the same garrison, I want to look at it.

            amphibious assaults - muddle and losses.


            Let's take a closer look. Landing in the lip of Zapadnaya Litsa, for example. Will it be an example of a "failure"?

            Read at least something on the topic, do not disgrace.
            1. Victor Leningradets
              Victor Leningradets 1 June 2020 13: 32 New
              0
              The scale is not the same. There were enough tactical landings, to land, to seize, to destroy. Lucky - to evacuate. So on the Western Face there is the Peterhof landing and this is under the gun of artillery of the whole KBF !.
              From large - Kerch-Feodosiya landing operation. Landing - three with a plus, then - sticking into the German defense (not enough pace - the enemy came to his senses). Supply is frankly weak. Ambarcation - zero due to lack of elaboration.
              There was no appropriate strength, skill, and most importantly - a good staff study, only "half a dora!" and "maybe!", and this business - for a week.
              In Sevastopol - do not disgrace yourself. Do not send the convoy, all on destroyers, and these are tears. There was no artillery support, except in December 1941. Hold on to batteries - hold on to the city. At the same time, the heroism of sailors and commanders is simply beyond, and the result ...
              1. ser56
                ser56 1 June 2020 14: 25 New
                0
                Quote: Victor Leningradets
                further - diving into the German defense

                Is the fleet to blame? bully
              2. mmaxx
                mmaxx 7 June 2020 07: 21 New
                0
                Nevertheless, the Kerch-Feodosia operation is a masterpiece. Losses are minimal. Do not believe liberal tales. The result is almost a disaster for the Germans. And then ...
            2. ser56
              ser56 1 June 2020 14: 24 New
              0
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              so that at least a couple of months in the same conditions would supply the same garrison, I want to look at it

              Malta.... request Although there the Germans had worse basing conditions there, and the British had AB ...
              1. timokhin-aa
                timokhin-aa 1 June 2020 20: 47 New
                0
                And how many German ground units stormed Malta? In Sevastopol, the requirements for supplies were HIGHER than in Malta, they could not sit there and wait until the convoy broke through, German aviation was fiercely worse, and there was nothing for us to hide behind.

                Nobody has anything comparable in world history, that’s the trick ...
                1. ser56
                  ser56 1 June 2020 21: 02 New
                  0
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  Nobody has anything comparable in world history, that’s the trick ...

                  not complete, but Malta is a good analogue of Sevastopol in terms of delivery complexity request There is more shoulder ...
          2. ser56
            ser56 1 June 2020 14: 23 New
            0
            Quote: Victor Leningradets
            No-no, but the land generals of 1941 led the troops into battle.

            we recall the SWF in June ... 4800 tanks, against 1000 at Klest ... the result of the loss of 2000 and 200 and the defeat ... request
            Quote: Victor Leningradets
            and in Sevastopol - on a shameful count!

            was there an order to evacuate troops from Sevastopol from the General Headquarters?

            Quote: Victor Leningradets
            could be achieved by floating and railway batteries with the appropriate number of barrels, and the costs of their construction and maintenance are not comparable with the ships.

            and train platforms capable of landing? hi
  12. starpur
    starpur 31 May 2020 08: 42 New
    +1
    ... If my grandmother had wheels ...
    1. Fitter65
      Fitter65 31 May 2020 14: 54 New
      +2
      Quote: starpur
      ... If my grandmother had wheels ...

      One grandmother had "wheels", but she was all soldered for selling drugs. laughing tongue
      1. WapentakeLokki
        WapentakeLokki 31 May 2020 18: 11 New
        +2
        ..aga planted Grandfather Repka .. and Repka leaned back and ... put Grandfather on the pen ..
  13. Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya 31 May 2020 08: 49 New
    +5
    It’s ridiculous. The Navy is VERY expensive pleasure, where does the impoverished country, like the USSR was in the 30s, take the fleet from? The main probable enemies of the USSR at that time were Germany, Poland and Japan, and, theoretically, Britain, who loves to take the heat by strangers. It did not make sense to compete with the fleets of Japan and Britain, the fleets of Britain or Japan were a hundred times superior to the Soviet Navy. And the war with Poland or Germany had to be on land. Naturally, the USSR applied the main efforts to the army, and the fleet was on the sidelines.
    1. timokhin-aa
      timokhin-aa 31 May 2020 11: 07 New
      +2
      It’s funny. The Navy is VERY expensive pleasure, where does the impoverished country, like the USSR was in the 30s, take the fleet from?


      Generally speaking, he was.
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 31 May 2020 13: 00 New
        0
        There was ... Ukraine and the Baltic republics also have a fleet, as it were, consisting of several boats. Even during the period of the power of the USSR, in the 80s, the fleet of the USSR was several times weaker than the US Navy. And in 1941, the Soviet Navy was even inferior to the Italian Navy.
        1. timokhin-aa
          timokhin-aa 31 May 2020 13: 15 New
          +2
          Well? With this approach, we can agree that only the United States has a fleet today. The fleet as a type of aircraft existed, but was not properly used.
          1. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya 31 May 2020 17: 57 New
            0
            Because the admirals were useless, just as in 1941 the generals were useless. And only a brutal screening during bitter defeats and rare victories of 1941-1942 pushed forward a galaxy of outstanding generals and marshals. And on the fleets, the completely incompetent Oktyabrsky, Tributs and Golovko sat the entire warfare commanders. It is just as if Pavlov would have commanded several fronts in a westerly direction throughout the war.
            1. timokhin-aa
              timokhin-aa 31 May 2020 18: 26 New
              +1
              The fleet requires greater organizational abilities and intelligence than the army.
              What a people, such a fleet.
              1. Kot_Kuzya
                Kot_Kuzya 31 May 2020 19: 11 New
                -3
                Well, everything is clear. Liberast. Again, "the people are not the same."
                1. The comment was deleted.
                  1. Kot_Kuzya
                    Kot_Kuzya 1 June 2020 06: 40 New
                    +1
                    The impression is sometimes that the fleet is commanded either by pests or cretins
                    This is not an impression, it was.
                2. Demagogue
                  Demagogue 1 June 2020 11: 24 New
                  -2
                  You clearly do not understand the essence of liberalism. Liberals are exactly the opposite. For the supporters of the liberal religion, as well as for the supporters of the Bolshevik religion, social factors are of little importance. "Any nigger can run the state"
                3. timokhin-aa
                  timokhin-aa 1 June 2020 12: 24 New
                  0
                  Yeah, liberalist

                  Go to my profile, look how liberal I am

                  But our people are really problematic - take you at least. There will be 2% of people like you in the country and the end of Russia, we can’t stand it.
                  1. Kot_Kuzya
                    Kot_Kuzya 1 June 2020 12: 51 New
                    0
                    Only a liberalist shares Nazi views and divides peoples into varieties. Hitler, by the way, was himself a liberal and was enthusiastic about the British and England, the birthplace of liberalism. He admired the British, who managed to capture and master half the world and keep in check half a billion British India by the forces of several tens of thousands of people.
                    1. timokhin-aa
                      timokhin-aa 1 June 2020 20: 45 New
                      0
                      You have confirmed my extremely low opinion of you, thank you.
                      1. Kot_Kuzya
                        Kot_Kuzya 2 June 2020 01: 40 New
                        -1
                        Of course, there is nothing to argue with, and as befits a liberal, they switched to childish name-calling like "myself" am
              2. ser56
                ser56 31 May 2020 21: 42 New
                0
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                What a people, such and so

                it brought into the ace - what kind of power, such and the fleet ... request
                1. timokhin-aa
                  timokhin-aa 1 June 2020 12: 25 New
                  +1
                  These people above didn’t come from another planet, if that.
                  1. ser56
                    ser56 1 June 2020 14: 29 New
                    -2
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    not from another planet flew, if that.

                    in fact, on the other, poorly educated demagogues and executioners are dominated ... request Their methods of war from the time of the Civil ... therefore weakly armed Finns beat the Red Army, replenishing tank units with trophies request
                    1. timokhin-aa
                      timokhin-aa 1 June 2020 20: 49 New
                      +1
                      This is idealism. Both then and now the power was flesh of the flesh of the people. It's just that those who are at the top are on average smarter than those at the bottom, so some characters with a low level of intelligence see them as some kind of "alien".
                      And here I have a high level of intelligence and I see it as it is.
                      1. ser56
                        ser56 1 June 2020 21: 06 New
                        -1
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        then idealism. And then, and now power was flesh from the flesh of the people.

                        Not at all - we are watching RI or Great Britain ... request
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        those above are on average smarter than those below, n

                        not smarter, but more educated in every sense, so the horizons are wider ... well, the quality of food and lifestyle matters ...
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        And here I have a high level of intelligence and I see it as it is.

                        made fun of ... hi It has long been known that the more you know, the less you understand ... those who read one book are happy - they understand everything, but if they wrote a few, but you don’t understand anything ... request
                      2. timokhin-aa
                        timokhin-aa 10 June 2020 20: 10 New
                        0
                        Yes, medieval game like the British crown had to be put in brackets, but for more progressive social systems everything is just like that - what kind of people, such and boyars.
                  2. mmaxx
                    mmaxx 7 June 2020 07: 27 New
                    0
                    And it’s all that the elite never won the Germans in World War I. Nowhere.
                    1. ser56
                      ser56 7 June 2020 12: 25 New
                      0
                      Quote: mmaxx
                      And it’s all that the elite never won the Germans in World War I. Nowhere.

                      you don’t know the story of 1MB ... read - at least Wiki ... request
                    2. mmaxx
                      mmaxx 7 June 2020 13: 19 New
                      0
                      Complete victories ... If I don’t know anything, enlighten: what battles did the Russian army win against the Germans. Germans.
                    3. ser56
                      ser56 7 June 2020 16: 39 New
                      0
                      Quote: mmaxx
                      If I don’t know anything, enlighten: what battles did the Russian army win against the Germans.

                      1) is it so hard for you to go to the wiki? bully
                      2) The Germans were from 1MB in Austria and Germany - do you mean the German Empire?
                      3) Please in 1914 - the Red Army simply does not stand nearby at 41 request
                      Warsaw-Ivangorod operation ...
                      Lodz operation
                    4. mmaxx
                      mmaxx 7 June 2020 20: 14 New
                      0
                      Germans are Germans. Austrians are Austrians
                    5. ser56
                      ser56 7 June 2020 22: 22 New
                      0
                      Quote: mmaxx
                      Germans are Germans. Austrians are Austrians

                      Do Austrians speak Austrian? bully
                    6. mmaxx
                      mmaxx 8 June 2020 03: 28 New
                      0
                      German. But he decently differs even in pronunciation. It is now. Even from Bavarian German.
                    7. ser56
                      ser56 8 June 2020 21: 49 New
                      0
                      Quote: mmaxx
                      It is now. Even from Bavarian German.

                      but in WW2 there was no difference between the German and Austrian divisions ... angry
                    8. mmaxx
                      mmaxx 9 June 2020 06: 18 New
                      0
                      So the Russian army and the Red Army were different. Although the people are the same.
                    9. ser56
                      ser56 9 June 2020 12: 23 New
                      0
                      Quote: mmaxx
                      Although the people are the same.

                      at the same time, in 1914 they fought normally, and in 19412 - defeat ... maybe it’s not the matter of people, but the leadership?
  • svp67
    svp67 31 May 2020 09: 32 New
    +4
    the fear of a mine threat and the fear of the Luftwaffe did their job: the fleet was blocked by the admirals themselves, and for three years no attempt was made to somehow change the situation.
    But all these threats, they were imaginary? The Black Sea Fleet tried to act actively, lost a number of large ships, in one of the operations three at once, and this was from the actions of aviation. Our ships had too weak air defense and our aviation was not able to help them. So you can fantasize as much as you like, but the reality was what it was
    1. Dr. Frankenstucker
      Dr. Frankenstucker 31 May 2020 15: 25 New
      +1
      Quote: svp67
      But all these threats, they were imaginary?


      why so
      Quote: svp67
      Imaginary

      ?

      As far back as 1937, Isakov (KBF Chief of Staff of the future Commander Fleet) painted everything that happened in the 41st — the RKKF will be blocked, light forces and aviation will be the main protagonists of the enemy. Plus a mine war. And so it happened - the shnellbots, ramumbots, pieces, heinkels and mines decided the outcome of the campaign. Plus, of course, action on land.
      Isakov’s prediction was so fatal and nothing could be changed?
      1. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 9 June 2020 22: 25 New
        0
        Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer
        back in 1937 he painted everything that happened in the 41st - the RKKF will be blocked,


        This is where you read? I would like a source ...
  • sevtrash
    sevtrash 31 May 2020 10: 01 New
    +4
    The Tallinn crossing has put everything in its place. 225 ships and vessels came out, 19 ships and 40-50 ships were lost, 12000-15000 people died. About 31 - mines (15 ships), 19 aircraft. There were 7-10 minesweepers, about 20 minesweepers converted, 20–25 minesweepers, about 60 in total. In addition, the Germans did not use Ju 87, which are dive bombers.
    But amid such consequences, a breakthrough will be decided - for this it is necessary to have completely different forces.
  • revnagan
    revnagan 31 May 2020 10: 21 New
    +1
    As a child, I took from a friend to read a book - "The Book of Future Admirals" A. Mityaev. As an adult, I bought this from the hucksters, on the layout. So, while still a kid, I read that: "On September 24, 1941, the German squadron took a position near the Aland Islands There were the battle cruiser Admiral Scheer, the cruisers Nuremberg, Cologne, six destroyers and other ships. Simultaneously, two light cruisers, two destroyers, patrol ships, boats, submarines came to Libau. Admiral Raeder prepared to capture our fleet. .According to the calculations of the Nazi command, the days have come when Soviet ships will begin a breakthrough from Leningrad to the ports of neutral Sweden. "(Cited p. 221.) But at the same time, according to the author of the book:" In the fall of 1941 in Kronstadt and Leningrad there were: 2 battleships, 2 cruisers, 13 destroyers, 12 patrol ships, 42 submarines, 6 surface minelayers, 9 gunboats, 6 net minesweepers, 62 (!) minesweepers, more than one and a half hundred different boats and boat minesweepers, auxiliary ships are a great wealth and great power! "(cit. 222). And comparing the strengths of the sides, both then and now I had quite (in my opinion) a reasonable question - and Raeder, for an hour, not that ....? "Hoo-hoo" not ho-ho "Didn't you mislead the banks? I thought I would get a concrete answer to the question in this article. There is no, no clarity. Is that still what Raeder hoped for when his squadron collided with the entire Red Banner Baltic Fleet?"
    1. Baron pardus
      Baron pardus 1 June 2020 06: 26 New
      +1
      And you compare the technical level of the German ships and their crews, and the technical level of our ships and their crews. Well, compare the pelvis like Marat with Scheer. Well, at the same time read about the level of training and education of personnel in Kriegsmarin and in the Soviet Navy. If the battle happened, I think ours would have been tight.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 1 June 2020 14: 53 New
      0
      Quote: revnagan
      As a child, I took from a friend to read a book - "The Book of Future Admirals" A. Mityaev. As an adult, I bought this from the hucksters, on the layout. So, while still a kid, I read that: "On September 24, 1941, the German squadron took a position near the Aland Islands There were the battle cruiser Admiral Scheer, the cruisers Nuremberg, Cologne, six destroyers and other ships. Simultaneously, two light cruisers, two destroyers, patrol ships, boats, submarines came to Libau. Admiral Raeder prepared to capture our fleet. .According to the calculations of the Hitlerite command, the days have come when Soviet ships will begin a breakthrough from Leningrad to the ports of neutral Sweden. "

      Well, calling Sheer a battlecruiser would flatter him a lot. smile
      However, against the background of the fact that the list of German ships is missing the biggest pot are little things. For the flagship of the German squadron at Aland was "Tirpitz". And this multiplies any chances of our squadron to zero.
      In the fall of 1941 in Kronstadt and Leningrad there were: 2 battleships, 2 cruisers, 13 destroyers, 12 patrol ships, 42 submarines, 6 surface loaders, 9 gunboats, 6 network loaders, 62 (!) Minesweeper, more than one and a half hundred different boats and boat minesweepers, auxiliary vessels — great wealth and great power!

      Battleship battleship discord.
      LK KBF are modernized first generation dreadnoughts. Moreover, they underwent modernization according to the small ("Marat") and medium ("Oktyabrina") versions - without increasing the HVN of the GC. And at the end of September, the KBF had one LK, the second was reclassified into a non-self-propelled floating battery.
  • Borz
    Borz 31 May 2020 10: 29 New
    10
    I read Skomorokhov's article. There is something to say about what you read. But I won't. For the opinion expressed by me in the commentary to the previous article of the same Skomorokhov "Who needs a trampoline" was perceived extremely negatively, with a warning. Allegedly for trolling. I did not set myself the goal of trolling the author, just the semantic orientation of some of his articles causes, to put it mildly, rejection. But ..... this is his opinion, and it has the right to publish. Another strange and unpleasant thing is why the site administration so zealously protects the author from criticism? Why are the views of commentators expressed within the framework of the law and the rules of this resource subject to strict censorship? For whom and why do you write and publish articles? For discussion? So let's discuss!
  • timokhin-aa
    timokhin-aa 31 May 2020 11: 08 New
    0
    The only possible scenario would be to prevent the Germans from mining. There were enough forces for this, not enough organization.
    And the point here is not even in Tributz and its headquarters.
    1. Dr. Frankenstucker
      Dr. Frankenstucker 31 May 2020 12: 33 New
      -1
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      The only possible scenario would be to prevent the Germans from mining. There were enough forces for this, not enough organization.
      And the point here is not even in Tributz and its headquarters.


      what or whom?
      Well, on August 2, through the mined Finnish, a convoy to Ezel with bombs and bulldozers successfully prepared to raid Berlin. Apparently, it was more important.
      1. timokhin-aa
        timokhin-aa 31 May 2020 13: 14 New
        +1
        It was in the system as a whole. Starting from the early thirties, from a young school, etc., then through Stalinist purges to the system of submission of fleets to the headquarters of strategic directions.
        It was a broken system. First, goal-setting was taken away from the fleet, then more or less trained personnel were knocked out, after that a control system was imposed, which, in principle, excluded the use of the fleet properly.
        1. Dr. Frankenstucker
          Dr. Frankenstucker 31 May 2020 15: 45 New
          -1
          but I do not argue. In addition, Isakov outlined the entire future scenario for isolating the fleet of the headquarters of the KBF three years before the war.
    2. svp67
      svp67 31 May 2020 17: 51 New
      0
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      The only possible scenario would be to prevent the Germans from mining. There were enough forces for this, not enough organization.

      What kind?
      1. timokhin-aa
        timokhin-aa 31 May 2020 18: 27 New
        0
        Baltic Fleet forces, what else
        1. svp67
          svp67 31 May 2020 18: 36 New
          0
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          Baltic Fleet forces, what else

          No, alas, but not enough. Despite the great courage of our sailors, it could not compensate for our technical lag behind the Germans
          1. timokhin-aa
            timokhin-aa 1 June 2020 12: 23 New
            0
            If we abstract from the German "Baltic Fleet", then they had seven mine-loaders, a flotilla of minesweepers, a flotilla of torpedo boats, two Finnish submarines, two Finnish mine-loaders and a battleship.

            It was possible to disrupt these actions, for this it was necessary from June 10 destroyers and submarines to provide intelligence approximately along the line of Liepaja-Gotland-Eland
            The transition of minzags was carried out from June 12 to June 18.
    3. ser56
      ser56 31 May 2020 21: 44 New
      0
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      would the Germans prevent mining

      there were more Finns and aviation ... request
      1. timokhin-aa
        timokhin-aa 1 June 2020 12: 23 New
        0
        We also had aviation at the beginning of the war.
        1. svp67
          svp67 1 June 2020 12: 48 New
          0
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          We also had aviation at the beginning of the war.

          Unfortunately, here the key word was "was" ... Unfortunately, the quality of the materiel and very often the level of combat and flight training of our pilot lagged far behind the German
          1. timokhin-aa
            timokhin-aa 1 June 2020 12: 49 New
            0
            the question would not even be to defeat them in battles, but to interfere at all costs. This could be dealt with.
            1. svp67
              svp67 1 June 2020 13: 14 New
              0
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              but to interfere at all costs. This could be dealt with.

              Alas, unfortunately, especially in the first year, the price paid was high, but there were few results ...
        2. ser56
          ser56 1 June 2020 14: 26 New
          0
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          We also had aviation at the beginning of the war.

          she was distracted to land ... request
  • BAI
    BAI 31 May 2020 11: 19 New
    +3
    What does American ships have to do with the article - the first photo?
    These are: Pennsylvania (BB-38) leading Colorado (BB-45), Louisville (CA-28), Portland (CA-33) and Columbia (CL-56) into Lingayen Gulf, Philippines, January 1945.
  • Dr. Frankenstucker
    Dr. Frankenstucker 31 May 2020 11: 33 New
    +4
    ".... putting an end to it, the author wearily approached the mirror and, admiring the reflection, exclaimed:
    - Oh yes Skomorokhov! Ah yes with ... son! "
  • Dr. Frankenstucker
    Dr. Frankenstucker 31 May 2020 12: 36 New
    +1
    I simply won’t believe in Tirpitsa in the Baltic, it’s a little narrow, and then, should someone frighten the English on the other side?


    brilliant. Skomorokhov does not believe in "Tirpitz in the Baltic" !!! laughing

    you have to be completely frostbitten alternativeist to come up with such a scenario ...
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 31 May 2020 12: 53 New
    +4
    I read this nonsense ...
    The "LSI version" in comparison is just a rigorous scientific work.

    To prevent the author from suffering from graphomania so much, he just had to put in Google - "Baltenflotte"
  • Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 31 May 2020 12: 54 New
    +2
    I think that economic considerations have taken place. We were sufficiently satisfied with this state of affairs - we did not have to be distracted by the supply of all this engine fuel, food, the staffing of crews, and the modernization of these ships. In 1941 we were not up to it, and in 1942 it was also.
    So, it seems to me that the question was this: at the cost of hellish organizational effort, our fleet would launch a big hedgehog in his pants to the Germans in the Baltic Sea, and block their access to the iron ore in those years when in general they could chew it (at least least temporarily) - because on an ongoing basis we would not have enough supplies to maintain such a status, and as the author correctly noted, our main attack ships were technically inferior to the German ones. That is, the Germans would come and drive us into the bottle again, put mines again - the status quo.
    For this, we would definitely pay with losses, with a large amount of fuel and lubricants - a distraction of org. efforts, resources and probably aviation from what was happening at that moment in the European part of the country.

    A tactical gain for strategic weakening is such a thing ..
    I think they acted as a whole correctly - the theater of operations and the actions of the enemy on it did not dispose us to excessive initiative ..
  • Sergey S.
    Sergey S. 31 May 2020 12: 58 New
    -3
    And really, where could the German and Soviet ships measure themselves?
    First of all, in the Baltic. Moreover, the ships of both countries took part in the battles in the Baltic Sea as floating batteries.

    .
    Before carrying the leaders of the Red Navy, it would be right to explain how, with overwhelming superiority in the naval forces, the British allowed the loss of Norway, without any attempt to recapture it.
    And how did the same British allow the comfortable inclusion of Swedish enterprises among the most important suppliers for the fascist military? The British fleet was closer to the Swedish-German communications than the Red Banner Baltic Fleet.

    Another question is alternative.
    The fact that the ships became floating batteries for each of the opponents, the author acknowledges.
    And the fact that the retention of Leningrad is a great merit of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet, as I understand it. also recognizes.
    But the advantages of artillery of German large ships are painted. And what, the German admirals were cowards and traitors - did not send their ships to storm Leningrad?!?!?!
    By the way, this question is a mirror: What are ours to the Germans, what are the Germans to us, the distances along the globe are the same ...

    And the last.
    The question is unlawful.
    To measure strength without a goal to win the Victory, this is some kind of scholarship.
    And in order to defeat the enemy, it is necessary to inflict defeat in those battles that are most important in strategic terms.
    So the Red Navy had to fight in the Marine Corps.
    But Leningrad and Murmansk defended.
    The Germans’s offensive against the Volga was delayed for almost a year for about a year, during which they were able to rebuild the country on a military model of action.
    And even in the offensive near Moscow, the Pacific helped.

    Here sometimes Japanese admirals are "respected" ...
    It was in 1945 that the Japanese fleet, many times superior to the Soviet Pacific, could not prevent the return of South Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands under the Soviet flag ...

    Let's discuss the weak-willed and cowardly foreign admirals.
    1. Dr. Frankenstucker
      Dr. Frankenstucker 31 May 2020 14: 40 New
      -2
      enchantment of the comment rolls over. The last paragraph is generally a control shot in the head of logic.
      1. Sergey S.
        Sergey S. 31 May 2020 14: 42 New
        0
        Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer
        enchantment of the comment rolls over. The last paragraph is generally a control shot in the head of logic.

        Excellent score!
        Glad the shot hit the target!
        1. Dr. Frankenstucker
          Dr. Frankenstucker 31 May 2020 14: 44 New
          -2
          Glad the shot hit the target!


          nda, reached ... only the logic in the comment died. Her pity.
          1. Sergey S.
            Sergey S. 31 May 2020 14: 54 New
            +1
            Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer
            Only the logic in the comment died. Her pity.

            It is a pity that the shot turned out to be murderous ... To continue the discussion. as I understand it. no one.
            The British remain outside the criticism, the Germans do not fly off the podium, and even the defeated Japanese feel very comfortable in Russian history in a heroic halo.

            Only the commanders of the Workers 'and Peasants' Red Fleet are subjected to derogatory criticism and contempt by the descendants, probably for the Victory won not according to the rules of ungrateful descendants.
            1. Dr. Frankenstucker
              Dr. Frankenstucker 31 May 2020 15: 07 New
              -1
              do not distort, dear. The personal courage of the sailors of all fleets no one questioned. But no one is going to raise Tributz to the podium of the great naval commander. Apparently, except for you.
              1. Sergey S.
                Sergey S. 31 May 2020 15: 39 New
                +1
                Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer
                do not distort, dear. The personal courage of the sailors of all fleets no one questioned. But no one is going to raise Tributz to the podium of the great naval commander. Apparently, except for you.

                ... Have you carefully read my posts?
                Where have I even said one good word about Tributs and Oktyabrsky?
                But unfair accusations for everything in a row can be hung only by such as Tributs and Oktyabrsky.
                Personally, those who do not have natural talents and do not have the necessary education can easily grind with their tongues. Support the leader, bark at a subordinate, speculate with subordinates standing "at attention" ...
                Then write the same memoirs ....
                Remove uncomfortable from memoirs ... to speculate and embellish ...
                The hero does not give the hero ... Himself photographed with an iconostasis ...

                And after a while, when the eyewitnesses can no longer object, begin to compose an alternative story in which all the troubles are blamed on someone ...
                And descendants to teach writing ...

                Open your eyes.
                Tributs, indeed, is largely to blame for the losses that the fleet suffered. But if there was someone who could manage better ... At least the fleet admirals are not known to me in large numbers. possessing strategic thinking.
                Exceptions - N.G. Kuznetsov, M.P. Lazarev, F.F. Ushakov, P.A. Romanov (Peter the Great) and ... Catherine the Great ... And their main achievements are the organization of naval campaigns, not battles ...
                N.G. Kuznetsov became People's Commissar too late ... He no longer had time to influence the construction of the fleet, he only managed to organize daily activities in a new way - he introduced a combat readiness system.
                And succeeded in this. The fleet commanders also did not let us down in this - for a couple of days, Tributz reported that Germany was carrying out actions similar to expedited preparations for war.
                Oktyabrsky in the Navy introduced readiness No. 1 before everyone else ... And already at 1-50 he reflected an air raid in the Cossack region ...
                Never in the history of Russia has the fleet been so highly prepared for war. About the Russian-Japanese and World War I do not even hint ...
                Though for this, say thanks to the pre-war generation of commanders.
                1. Dr. Frankenstucker
                  Dr. Frankenstucker 31 May 2020 16: 08 New
                  -2
                  You contradict yourself - in one comment you blame that the merits of other naval commanders are extolled to the detriment of the Soviet ones, then, below, you refuse talents to the higher echelons of the RKKF)
                  Quote: Sergey S.
                  Never in the history of Russia has the fleet been so highly prepared for war.

                  what's the point? Simply put, the fate of the KBF in the 41st was decided by the Wehrmacht, mines and Luftwaffe, not the Kriegsmarine. If it is difficult to blame the KBF for the first first component, then he was not ready for a mine war. Although, in fairness, the kriegsmarine was also undermined by mines - Swedish and mine. They had to mine their own mines at Vindava and Kolberg.
                  1. Alexey RA
                    Alexey RA 1 June 2020 15: 09 New
                    0
                    Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer
                    If it is difficult to blame the KBF for the first first component, then he was not ready for a mine war.

                    EMNIP, in the mine issue there is a share of the guilt of the central apparatus of the Navy NK. The fact is that the KBF was ready for a mine war with Finnish mines (that is, Russian WWII mines). Both mines and paravanes worked perfectly on these mines. That is, the combat experience of the fleet said that the fleet was ready for a mine war.
                    The problem was that the Germans were not going to fight as in WWI. Firstly, German minefields were placed with protection from mine defenders. And, secondly, German mines were equipped with a device that jammed the paravan-trawl cutter, after which the mine itself was pulled under the paravan by the side of the ship. And the central apparatus knew about this - for samples of German mines were received back in 1940. But the information on German mines by the People's Commissariat was not brought to the fleets.
                    1. Dr. Frankenstucker
                      Dr. Frankenstucker 1 June 2020 15: 55 New
                      0
                      so how then can we talk about the readiness of the fleet for a mine war?
                      1. Alexey RA
                        Alexey RA 1 June 2020 16: 27 New
                        0
                        Quote: Dr. Frankenstucker
                        so how then can we talk about the readiness of the fleet for a mine war?

                        The fleet believed it was ready for a mine war - based on the experience of the previous war. As always - prepared for the last war.
                        In addition, at the same KBF, mine-sweeping forces, instead of fulfilling the main task - the PMO of communications (in particular, the main base-rear base of the fleet) - did anything. Up to the point that the most valuable HSTs were used as high-speed transports.
                      2. Dr. Frankenstucker
                        Dr. Frankenstucker 1 June 2020 16: 32 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        The fleet thought it was ready for a mine war


                        oh yes)
              2. ser56
                ser56 31 May 2020 21: 46 New
                0
                Quote: Sergey S.
                N.G. Kuznetsov became Commissar too late ...

                on the contrary - too early, according to his memoirs request Well, he did not have time to gain experience, commanding the formation, and then the fleet hi
                1. Sergey S.
                  Sergey S. 1 June 2020 12: 27 New
                  0
                  Quote: ser56
                  on the contrary - too early, according to his memoirs

                  Humiliation, more than pride.
                  I meant that he could no longer really influence the pre-war shipbuilding program.
                  Quote: ser56
                  Well, he did not have time to gain experience, commanding the formation, and then the fleet

                  This is a controversial argument. The Spanish experience was invaluable. And his success in planning operations under conditions of enemy domination was undeniable.
                  No matter how you judge, - military admiral.
                  1. ser56
                    ser56 1 June 2020 14: 32 New
                    0
                    Quote: Sergey S.
                    I meant that he could no longer really influence the pre-war shipbuilding program.

                    it was necessary in 1927 .. request
                    Quote: Sergey S.
                    No matter how you judge, - military admiral.

                    in Spain, the level of one fleet is no more ... of course he understood the role of aviation, etc.
                    And the man was not stupid and educated ... but he set mines on the Black Sea Fleet and the Baltic ... request
                    1. Sergey S.
                      Sergey S. 1 June 2020 15: 33 New
                      0
                      Quote: ser56
                      And the man was not stupid and educated ... but he set mines on the Black Sea Fleet and the Baltic ...

                      Our mines are all ... although .... did not notice how ... the Germans overtook us in this ...
                      None of the naval leaders of the pre-war era admitted that they doubted the need to set up protective minefields.
                      But after the war, there were too many rich in the back mind.
                      I am not a miner, and I don’t understand how to set minefields according to the pattern. And the miners did just that. At the same time, those who walked more often in minefields were killed on mines. This happened even with the Russo-Japanese.
                    2. ser56
                      ser56 1 June 2020 21: 00 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Sergey S.
                      None of the naval leaders of the pre-war era admitted that he doubted the need to set up protective minefields

                      so everything goes from Essen request Another thing is that the Germans in 41g did not have a Kaiser fleet ... as for the Black Sea Fleet, the enemy did not have a fleet at all, but they set mines ... request And Kuznetsov did not admit the mistake ... what
            2. Cyril G ...
              Cyril G ... 5 June 2020 22: 24 New
              0
              But if there was someone who could manage better ...
              Could anyone able to read the full BUMS-1937, that is, the combat charter of the naval forces. Specifically, a chapter on the organization of the breakthrough of the blockade. Herr Tributs did everything exactly the opposite and the maximum loss of the BF as a result was incurred in mines.

              I remember I was killed on the spot praise stakes regarding the actions of the Katukov brigade near Moscow - the brigade is fighting according to the charter. So that.
  • saigon
    saigon 31 May 2020 17: 30 New
    0
    What fleet of the Japanese by the fall of 1945?
    What the Yankees did not drown was standing on a joke there was no fuel at all.
    So there was no one and nothing to go to the Kuril Islands and Sakhalin.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 31 May 2020 13: 53 New
    +2
    The author would also remember what the command of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet told the "army" to their entreaties in the fall of 44th to do something with the "Baltic gunboats": "Luttsov", "Scheer", "Eugen" and other trifles.
    And this despite the fact that the northern fairways of the Gulf of Finland already provided relatively safe access to the Baltic ...
    1. svp67
      svp67 31 May 2020 17: 55 New
      +1
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      The author would also remember what the command of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet told the "army" to their entreaties in the fall of 44th to do something with the "Baltic gunboats": "Luttsov", "Scheer", "Eugen" and other trifles.

      But these are at least full-fledged warships, which we could not set anything equal to, and what could the fleet oppose to the German BDB on the Black Sea? Only attack aircraft, the benefit of them already managed to do a lot, a lot by 1944
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 1 June 2020 15: 14 New
      0
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      The author would also remember what the command of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet told the "army" to their entreaties in the fall of 44th to do something with the "Baltic gunboats": "Luttsov", "Scheer", "Eugen" and other trifles.

      So in 1944, the "big pots" KBF with crews - full seams. Only anti-aircraft gunners are more or less trained. In general, after the formation of naval detachments in 1941 and the withdrawal of specialists for the Arkhangelsk and Murmansk in 1944, the LK and KR KBF can only be used as a PBA.
  • smaug78
    smaug78 31 May 2020 14: 23 New
    -1
    Quote: Sergey S.
    did not send their ships to storm Leningrad?!?!?!

    this is a new word in military science - the storming of the city by ships ... and your whole comment ...
    1. Sergey S.
      Sergey S. 31 May 2020 15: 01 New
      +1
      Quote: smaug78
      this is a new word in military science - the storming of the city by ships ...

      Only domestic experience:
      The birth of St. Petersburg and Kronstadt was accompanied by the idea of ​​companies in which the Ankershtern squadron tried to break through to St. Petersburg and take control of Kotlin, which had not yet become a fortress.
      A giant enemy linear fleet participated in the assault on Sevastopol in the Crimean War.
      In the same war, the Anglo-French squadron stormed Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky twice. Heroes defended!
      About Port Arthur is a textbook example.

      Unfortunately, the new word in science regarding the storming of coastal fortresses does not belong to me.
      1. smaug78
        smaug78 31 May 2020 15: 31 New
        -1
        And thank God ... If you do not distinguish between the bombing and the assault ...
        1. Sergey S.
          Sergey S. 31 May 2020 15: 45 New
          0
          Quote: smaug78
          If you do not distinguish between bombing and assault ...

          If the goals of the bombing are achieved, they write ... stormed ...

          And in all my examples, the bombing was only the forerunner of the assault.
          1. smaug78
            smaug78 31 May 2020 15: 59 New
            -1
            I look forward to hearing from you examples of ships on the streets of storming cities ... Here Ishmael bombarded the ships, and the miraculous heroes of Suvorov stormed ...
            1. Sergey S.
              Sergey S. 31 May 2020 16: 07 New
              +1
              Quote: smaug78
              I look forward to hearing from you examples of ships on the streets of storming cities ... Here Ishmael bombarded the ships, and the miraculous heroes of Suvorov stormed ...

              And Berlin stormed the ships ...
              And all my examples are not only bombardment ....
              And the Americans in many operations fleet stormed the Japanese islands.
    2. svp67
      svp67 31 May 2020 17: 58 New
      +1
      Quote: smaug78
      this is a new word in military science - the storming of the city by ships ...

      Well, if you add one word - "support", what would the proposal sound like: "to support the storming of the city by ships." Well, only the Germans, since 1941, abandoned the idea of ​​storming Leningrad, they changed their strategy to a blockade, which allowed them to remove all mobile units from this sector for other sectors of the front
      1. Sergey S.
        Sergey S. 31 May 2020 19: 56 New
        +1
        Quote: svp67
        Well, if you add one word - "support", what would the sentence sound like: "to support the storming of the city by ships."

        Personally, I agree.
        And if this helps to remove the heat of the "discussion", I will be glad to reassure my colleagues.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 31 May 2020 14: 47 New
    +1
    Quote: Comrade
    At the very beginning of the article, there is a photograph of a wake column of American ships, in the head of which is the battleship "Pennsylvania" - what does it mean that they were given to us under Lend-Lease?
    Further, we see clearly post-war destroyers, on the decks of which missile launchers are guessed.

    And in the fourth photo we see a minesweeper of project 1265 built in 1971.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 31 May 2020 15: 03 New
      +7
      In the sixth photo, the Chinese Anshan-class destroyers are Soviet "sevens" from the Pacific Fleet, transferred to the PRC in 1954 and equipped with Chinese anti-ship missiles HY-2.
      The author is clearly a connoisseur of the fleet.
      1. svp67
        svp67 31 May 2020 18: 00 New
        +2
        Quote: Undecim
        The author is clearly a connoisseur of the fleet.
        Well, he considers himself generally a major specialist in military affairs ...
  • K-50
    K-50 31 May 2020 14: 48 New
    -1
    And such a situation.
    Our Baltic Fleet cleared the area, went through, and the Germans would then, with the help of aviation, snail boats and landing barges, and from everything that could float, renewed the swept barrage. The Finns would help. And then, with their "hippers" and others like them, they would put pressure on our ships, forcing them to either accept an unequal battle or "at random" to break through the minefields. How many of our ships would be at the bottom?
    They could have developed such an operation on purpose on purpose, having lured our ships and preventing them from returning to base.
    So this business is fraught with chasing large warships for pellets of ore. Could our grandfathers "wash themselves" with blood.
    And even though the batteries of large-caliber guns depicted, all the help to protect Leningrad. sad
    1. Dr. Frankenstucker
      Dr. Frankenstucker 31 May 2020 15: 38 New
      0
      Quote: K-50
      So this business is fraught with chasing large warships for pellets of ore. Could our grandfathers "wash themselves" with blood.

      indeed, what for somewhere out there to break through, to act on enemy communications .... Dönitz was an idiot when he sent his "wolves" to "wash with blood" in the North Atlantic.
    2. svp67
      svp67 31 May 2020 18: 00 New
      0
      Quote: K-50
      And then they would put pressure on our ships with their "hippers" and others like them,

      They did not need this, for this they would have had enough aircraft and submarines
      1. Dr. Frankenstucker
        Dr. Frankenstucker 31 May 2020 22: 16 New
        -2
        Quote: svp67
        aviation and submarines


        Schnellbots have excellent seaworthiness ....
        1. svp67
          svp67 1 June 2020 04: 39 New
          0
          Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer
          Schnellbots have excellent seaworthiness ....

          Yes, unlike ours
    3. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya 31 May 2020 18: 06 New
      +2
      Yeah. And we won't let the infantry attack enemy positions either. There, after all, the enemy had machine guns and artillery, the grandfathers could "wash themselves" with blood.
      In general, if you knew the basics of strategy and tactics, you would have understood that they won’t win the war by defense and sitting in one place, they won the war only by offensive. And the fleets of the USSR during the war were exactly what they sat in one place and did almost nothing, the Red Army did everything for them.
  • Alceers
    Alceers 31 May 2020 14: 59 New
    +1
    History does not know the subjunctive moods, because the Baltic Fleet stood the whole war on a joke, and German and Swedish ore carriers regularly dragged the finest and richest ore from the Kirunavar deposits to Germany.

    I agree, I don’t know. But then it’s not worth it to distort .... Recently, on YouTube, there was a lecture by Miroslav Morozov on the actions of the Baltic Fleet on a breakthrough in communication to the Swedes.
    So the task is then practically completed. Swedish ore was transported in convoys. And this is if someone does not already know a big achievement and a decrease in the turnover of ships!
    And vacationers near Leningrad to Finland along long routes along the skerries even in the central Baltic, so Roman and materiel should be more specific ....
  • NF68
    NF68 31 May 2020 16: 40 New
    0
    The large firing range of the German 380 mm and 283 mm guns generally puts the whole venture at risk. And with radars and even more so. 7 kilometers of difference is a lot.


    In the late 30s and early 40s, the effective fire of the main battle ships of battleships and linear armchairs could have a maximum at a distance of 27-28 km. This is if you shoot at the same large moving targets as battleships with normal caliber projectiles. The radars of the Germans at that time were not very perfect. They could detect enemy ships, but could not properly control the GK fire. So, most likely, battleships could fire in the Baltic at distances clearly shorter than those indicated above 27-28 km. 283 mm. German inferior to Soviet 305 mm. GK, but against the German 380 mm. Soviet 305 mm. HA is too weak. In addition, booking with German battleships is much more powerful than with outdated Soviet ones. A much more likely and dangerous enemy for the Soviet battleships was German aviation, which by 1941 had already had considerable experience in the fight against enemy ships.

    Would the Germans decide to use their battleships in the Baltic? Unlikely. The risk is too great to stumble on Soviet mines or a submarine breaking through to the Baltic. The Germans needed battleships in order to constantly keep the British on the leash. There they would be much more useful to the Germans.
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 31 May 2020 16: 51 New
      +3
      Quote: NF68
      In the late 30s and early 40s, the effective fire of the main battle ships of battleships and linear armchairs could have a maximum at a distance of 27-28 km.

      This is in deep theory ...
      In fact, one way or another, everyone tried to reduce the distance to a more reasonable 13-18 km.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 1 June 2020 15: 19 New
        0
        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
        In fact, one way or another, everyone tried to reduce the distance to a more reasonable 13-18 km.

        In the period 1940 - 41 years of progress in naval artillery in the Mediterranean fleet was not. However, at the cost of great losses and troubles, I had to re-learn the old lessons of the time of the Armada. The most significant lesson was that the correct combat distance for any ship in the Mediterranean fleet, from battleship to submarine, is the distance of a pistol shot (today it is 2000 yards or less). Because at such a distance, even an artillery officer cannot miss.
        © ABC smile
        1. Macsen_wledig
          Macsen_wledig 1 June 2020 18: 25 New
          0
          Quote: Alexey RA
          © ABC

          Well, from the height of Matapan he knows better ... :)
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 1 June 2020 18: 39 New
            0
            Quote: Macsen_Wledig
            Well, from the height of Matapan he knows better ... :)

            Great God! But we hit!
            © Commander of LK "Worspite" on the results of shooting from a distance of 2900 yards. smile
      2. NF68
        NF68 1 June 2020 16: 22 New
        0
        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
        Quote: NF68
        In the late 30s and early 40s, the effective fire of the main battle ships of battleships and linear armchairs could have a maximum at a distance of 27-28 km.

        This is in deep theory ...
        In fact, one way or another, everyone tried to reduce the distance to a more reasonable 13-18 km.


        This was not only a theory. Rather, these 27-28 km. were the limit in the best of conditions that in practice, beyond latitudes close to the equator or the tropics, far from always can be expected. And there were not many fools who wanted to scatter shells at maximum distances and at high-speed targets. In any case, for a long time they were not held in command posts.
        1. Macsen_wledig
          Macsen_wledig 1 June 2020 18: 39 New
          0
          Quote: NF68
          This was not only a theory. Rather, these 27-28 km. were the limit in the best of conditions that in practice, beyond latitudes close to the equator or the tropics, far from always can be expected.

          Well, the Germans believed they could "throw" 380-mm shells 30 km with an 11% chance of hitting.
          In fact, they indicated that the normal battle distance would be 12-18 km, which, in general, was confirmed.

          The Italians believed that the maximum opening distance would be 28-30 km, and the decisive battle distance would be a range of 21-25 km.
          In practice, they used it, but did not get anywhere. :)
          1. NF68
            NF68 3 June 2020 17: 20 New
            0
            Quote: Macsen_Wledig
            Well, the Germans believed they could "throw" 380-mm shells 30 km with an 11% chance of hitting.


            At such a distance, 1-1,5% of hits will already be a very good result.
            1. Macsen_wledig
              Macsen_wledig 3 June 2020 18: 22 New
              0
              Quote: NF68
              At such a distance, 1-1,5% of hits will already be a very good result.

              That's why I write "considered" ... :)
              1. NF68
                NF68 4 June 2020 16: 21 New
                0
                Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                Quote: NF68
                At such a distance, 1-1,5% of hits will already be a very good result.

                That's why I write "considered" ... :)


                It is written about 11%. For such a distance, when only the masts and the upper part of the superstructures will be visible, these 11% somehow do not inspire confidence.
                1. Macsen_wledig
                  Macsen_wledig 4 June 2020 18: 36 New
                  0
                  Quote: NF68
                  It is written about 11%. For such a distance, when only the masts and the upper part of the superstructures will be visible, these 11% somehow do not inspire confidence.

                  Such figures appear in the instructions of the OKM of 1940 ...
                  It is clear that they look very optimistic, but they are in the official stamped document.
                  1. NF68
                    NF68 5 June 2020 16: 30 New
                    0
                    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                    Quote: NF68
                    It is written about 11%. For such a distance, when only the masts and the upper part of the superstructures will be visible, these 11% somehow do not inspire confidence.

                    Such figures appear in the instructions of the OKM of 1940 ...
                    It is clear that they look very optimistic, but they are in the official stamped document.


                    If the enemy does not shoot at you, then the number of hits may well be higher. And when no less serious suitcases fly into you and you as well as the enemy do not go straight ahead, and from time to time you increase or decrease the distance and even change the speed, then this is already much more difficult conditions and the probability of getting into these conditions are much lower.
                    1. Macsen_wledig
                      Macsen_wledig 5 June 2020 18: 00 New
                      0
                      Quote: NF68

                      If the enemy does not shoot at you, then the number of hits may well be higher. And when no less serious suitcases fly into you and you as well as the enemy do not go straight ahead, and from time to time you increase or decrease the distance and even change the speed, then this is already much more difficult conditions and the probability of getting into these conditions are much lower.

                      Kamrad, I know ...
                      Once again, I said about theorywhich the Germans developed for themselves.
                      :)
  • LeonidL
    LeonidL 31 May 2020 18: 12 New
    0
    Eh, Roman, you would be a hitman, but on the bridge instead of a tirpitz, or even Kuznetsov ... Well, it's just lovely what strategists who denounced from the 2008s disappeared in the military years! Shirokazad caught all the painters in a row (well, I forgot that paints later took Berlin) ... torpedo pilots that "lied en masse" without being afraid of SMERSH's obvious exploits, did not even hesitate to give their names. Read the book of his granddaughters "Torpedo bombers" in XNUMX and say to their grandfather, they say, take off the liar of the old order ... That is how imposingly Shirokozad swept aside the aerial photo data and reports from the crews of scouts and cover fighters ... they say everyone was lying! It is like "a tanker puts a smoke screen" and does not burn. Now here's a novel of his own - "Would: would, would" ... It could not be "would", but it was only as it could be and nothing else. It is clear that I would like to ... But glory and eternal memory to those who won without "would".
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 31 May 2020 18: 30 New
      +2
      Quote: LeonidL
      Eh, Roman, you would be in the fools, but on the bridge instead of Tirpitz, well, or even Kuznetsov ...

      He will not be able to: for this, he does not know history well ... :)
  • LeonidL
    LeonidL 31 May 2020 18: 17 New
    0
    Quote: Sergey S.
    And Berlin stormed the ships ...

    Well, not ships, but several half-gliders and questionable armored boats. On ships it does not pull. Although what they did is a feat of pure water. But still, to write that the ships stormed Berlin is a little too much.
    1. Sergey S.
      Sergey S. 31 May 2020 22: 03 New
      +1
      Quote: LeonidL
      But still, to write that the ships stormed Berlin is a little too much.

      I agree, but there is either a book, or an article with the title "And the ships stormed Berlin", I remember it from childhood. So much in my memory ... And an interesting fact.
      While thinking, I decided to dial, here is the material evidence:

      Militer's website (Military Literature): militera.lib.ru and militera.org
      Edition: Grigoryev V.V. And the ships stormed Berlin. - M .: Military Publishing House, 1984.
      Book on the website: http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/grigoriev_vv/index.html
      Book in one file: http://militera.lib.ru/memo/0/one/russian/grigoriev_vv.rar
      1. LeonidL
        LeonidL 1 June 2020 01: 33 New
        0
        Sergei! I know the book. Courage, bravery, loyalty to duty and maritime training I do not cancel, ... but several boats, not ships did not make the weather. Just like the Poles, everywhere they shouted and shouted "When we took Berlin, the Russians helped us ..." - as an anecdote it is acceptable, but they really took part in the storming of the Berlin station ... but they did not do the weather in Berlin, like the victory in the war.
        1. Sergey S.
          Sergey S. 1 June 2020 01: 34 New
          0
          Quote: LeonidL
          but they didn’t do the weather in Berlin

          Naturally.
          But also participated in the assault ...
  • Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 31 May 2020 19: 01 New
    -1
    I support the respected Roman Skomorokhov
    1 terrible command of the Navy, including the commander-in-chief Kuznetsov, the fleet, like the first world one, as well as the Russian-Japanese one, showed the most negative qualities of the admiralty, with the heroism of individual captains and the mass heroism of sailors and foremen
    2 you need to take into account the terrible technical condition of the fleet
    3 neglect of aviation and minesweepers, for the sake of bulky old battleships and cruisers
    4 all these problems of sky-readyness of the cumbersomeness of mismanagement and neglect of minesweepers and airplanes concern the modern navy and it is just as non-operational as in 1905, 1914 and 1941
    1. ser56
      ser56 31 May 2020 21: 26 New
      -2
      Quote: vladimir1155
      and he is just as dysfunctional as in 1905, 1914 and 1941

      what nonsense hi
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 31 May 2020 23: 07 New
        0
        for the ship to go out to sea in the conditions of mine danger, and the danger of pl, minesweepers and ships are needed PLO planes, there are almost no minesweepers, there are also very few planes and ships, so only peacetime warships can plow the seas and oceans, in case of war they don't go out
        1. ser56
          ser56 1 June 2020 14: 18 New
          0
          Quote: vladimir1155
          in case of war they won’t get out

          what kind of war? That is why the Soviet Navy introduced BS request
  • Petrol cutter
    Petrol cutter 31 May 2020 20: 45 New
    +2
    Began...
    Krigsmarinen / Navy of the USSR ...
    Mom, go eat then ...
  • ser56
    ser56 31 May 2020 21: 24 New
    +3
    "The fact is that from the main base of the German Navy, Wilhelmshaven, to the site of this hypothetical operation, it is about 2 kilometers. Through the Danish straits, where you can hardly accelerate."
    I’ll open for the author a new one - there is a channel, Kielsky .... request
  • ser56
    ser56 31 May 2020 21: 31 New
    +3
    In short - the next nonsense of the author request something he frequented ... bully The author at least understands what it is to stomp and maintain a fairway of 150-200 km, when both sides are alien ... Where to base the fleet, how to supply fuel, in conditions of blockade request
    1. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 31 May 2020 23: 13 New
      0
      admirals had to provide both basing, and fuel supplies and tankers for delivery, the fact that the enemy would mine the exit from the Gulf of Finland could be predicted without seven spans in the forehead, he did this in 1914, 1941 and will surely do it next time, and again it turns out that there is no basing nor fuel reserves
      1. ser56
        ser56 1 June 2020 14: 19 New
        0
        Quote: vladimir1155
        admirals had to provide for basing, and fuel supplies and tankers for delivery,

        in theory, but in real life a planned economy, what will they give ...
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 1 June 2020 15: 42 New
        0
        Quote: vladimir1155
        admirals had to provide both basing, and fuel supplies and tankers for delivery, the fact that the enemy would mine the exit from the Gulf of Finland could be predicted and without seven spans in his forehead, he did this in 1914

        In 1914, an exit was not mined, but an entrance. smile And the BF did it.
        And in 1941 no one could predict that the army would roll back to Tallinn and Narva in a month and a half.
  • faterdom
    faterdom 1 June 2020 00: 35 New
    +7
    Quote: Unknown
    yes drowned marinesco ,, gustlova ,, but it would be better if he

    You, Alexander Ivanovich Marinesko, take the trouble to write with a capital letter, "Gustlova" as you wish, and Marinesko deserves at least the whole thing to be written in large letters. In Leningrad, the street where he lived is named after him in the area of ​​metro Avtovo.
  • LeonidL
    LeonidL 1 June 2020 01: 58 New
    +2
    There are different types of responsibility of commanders - what they could not do, those that should not, but did, those that were forced to do ... We need to understand the level of responsibility for making decisions - the commander of a platoon-company-battalion-regiment in the Army of a separate ship in the Navy carry out the orders of higher commanders and are free only in how to fulfill the order with the least losses of their own and causing maximum damage to the enemy. The commanders of the unit associations have more responsibility, but they are based on the orders of the Headquarters, GKO, People’s Commissars ... their intelligence agencies. But the decisions coming from the very top - on the totality of intelligence data and their analytical interpretation - on the decisions of the Commander-in-Chief, in our case, Comrade Stalin.
    A classic example of the accusation of Oktyabrsky in the export of ammunition of caliber both coastal artillery and the main calibers of the Black Sea Fleet. As a result, during the third assault, Sevastopol was left without the most powerful artillery. Criminal error? Not really. The decision to export ammunition for the main calibers was made as a result of the analysis of intelligence data, according to which (this summer-fall of 41), Turkey could enter the war on the side of Germany and open the straits for the Italian fleet. Then the ammunition is naturally needed for the main caliber of the ships and the decision is quite justified ... Why they didn’t return on time - this is already a mistake not quite explainable ...
    The commander of the Special Baltic Region Kuznetsov (by the way, the same high-speed nominee as Pavlov and Kirponos) is the only one who took responsibility and began to advance troops to the border before the war ... Neither Kirponos nor Pavlov did this ... but a significant influence on the course of hostilities this mistake did not make, as Kuznetsov did not help either. Pavlov’s criminal fatal mistake is in completely ignoring intelligence data, in that the artillery was torn from the troops, that the aircraft were not dispersed. But the root cause of the failures of all three commanders of the fronts lies in their unpreparedness as commanders of such associations, which at once jumped over several of the most important levels of service.
    Could Tributs evacuate the fleet from Tallinn without huge losses? He could, but ... part of the blame lies with the command of the ground forces, to which the BF was subordinate promptly, and part at the Headquarters - this is what the command of the BF could not change. But the organization of convoys, the choice of the departure route, the lack of milestones on the worn forwarding channel, the stoppage of movement, the departure of the combat core, the failure to ensure air defense and strict discipline for the movement of ship caravans - yes, this is the fault of the command of the Baltic Fleet and personally Tributs.
    But, other tributs and October, alas, Stalin did not have in his pocket.
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 1 June 2020 13: 32 New
    +1
    For such an active scenario, there had to be a political will to risk ships (and losses are inevitable) by Stalin, strategic skills of naval commander adm. Tributsa (which was not), the skills of commanders and crews of both NK and PL .... Alas, Ah! That was not then.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 1 June 2020 14: 59 New
    +1
    But what about Scharnhorst and Gneisenau? Admiral Scheer? I simply won’t believe in Tirpitsa in the Baltic, it’s a little narrow, and then, should someone frighten the English on the other side?

    Mwa-ha-ha ... just "Tirpitz" was waiting for our KBF at the end of September 1941 near the Alands - at the head of the German "Baltic Fleet" from "Scheer", "Emden", "Leipzig", "Cologne" and "Nuremberg" with an escort from EM and TSC.
    26 - 29 September 1941 Tirpitz was a member of the so-called "Baltic Fleet" related to the German invasion of the Sovietunion, Operation "Barbarossa". While still on trials, Tirpitz joined a powerful assembly of German warships off the Aaland Islands to deter the Soviet fleet from venturing out of Kronstadt. The "Baltic Fleet" consisted of Tirpitz, Admiral Scheer, Emden, Leipzig, Köln and Nürnberg, together with numerous destroyers, torpedo boats and mine sweepers.
  • Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 1 June 2020 21: 17 New
    0
    I simply won’t believe in Tirpitsa in the Baltic, it’s a little narrow, and then, should someone frighten the English on the other side?

    1. Tirpitz in September 1941 was in the Baltic in the so-called "Baltic Fleet" - the battleship Tirpitz, the cruisers Scheer, Nuremberg, Kjoln, Leipzig, Emden, 3 destroyers, 5 mini-boats and all torpedo boats were based in Libau and were supposed to destroy the Soviet fleet if he eats from Leningrad. After the bombing of the Baltic Fleet by German aviation at the end of September, the large ships "left" for Gotenhafen.
    Nothing prevented the Germans from using several German and Finnish submarines against Soviet ships. In addition, in 1941, together with the Germans, they could defend general shipping and Swedish ships.
    German and even more so Soviet aviation also had no particular success at sea in 41. The anti-aircraft artillery of German ships and fighter aircraft beat better. For the exit from the Gulf of Finland, the Soviet fleet had to overcome several times German mine-laying positions like the Juminda. So the actions of large Red Banner Baltic Fleet ships against transports in 1941 are most likely a useless loss. In addition, the German army was already beating at the walls of Leningrad and the most effective use of large ships was firing at the German ground forces. Leningrad is the first center of stability on the Eastern Front, where the German offensive was stopped for a long time and the maneuvering war became trench warfare and this is a great merit of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet.
    2. The Soviet fleet fought very well, but the German fleet beat should make a drink attacking Leningrad from the sea using superiority in large ships, minesweepers and landing barges.
    Only UTB could justify a lot of money for these ships and really help in the war on the main front.
  • Sasha_rulevoy
    Sasha_rulevoy 1 June 2020 21: 27 New
    0
    Quote: Sergey S.
    and World War I


    In World War I, the Russian fleet calmly acted on German-Swedish communications. He did not plan to go out to the Åland Islands from time to time, he simply occupied these islands, strengthened them and acted from them. The destroyers laid mines at Danzing. And supplying the right flank of the army through Riga was generally a routine. Despite the fact that the German fleet in WWI had two dozen battleships, and not one, like Hitler.
    1. ecolog
      ecolog 4 August 2020 16: 07 New
      0
      Two dozen German battleships were busy gazing with three dozen British battleships. For the Germans, the Baltic was the Teutonic lake, a purely secondary theater. They sent to us either old junk like the 4th squadron of battleships of the "Wittelsbach" class (called "battleships" for some reason) or new ships for running-in.
      And the imperial Russian fleet felt somewhat freer only because the German land army was heavily occupied by the French and the British, and not by the blockade of Petrograd and the campaign against Moscow and Tsaritsyn.
  • Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 1 June 2020 22: 15 New
    0
    Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
    Quote: Sergey S.
    and World War I


    In World War I, the Russian fleet calmly acted on German-Swedish communications. He did not plan to go out to the Åland Islands from time to time, he simply occupied these islands, strengthened them and acted from them. The destroyers laid mines at Danzing. And supplying the right flank of the army through Riga was generally a routine. Despite the fact that the German fleet in WWI had two dozen battleships, and not one, like Hitler.

    Remember the successes of the Russian surface fleet in German-Swedish communications.
  • Grafova Irina
    Grafova Irina 1 June 2020 23: 50 New
    0
    It's funny how it is stated. For the "cherry" - the first photo. Pennsylvania with company en route to Leyte
  • tolancop
    tolancop 2 June 2020 00: 34 New
    +1
    Of course you can dream up .... And the point? And Swedish ore carriers could theoretically be launched. The question is whether Sweden remained neutral after that. Of course, the Swedes supplied the Germans with raw materials and not only raw materials, but it was one thing to trade, and another to enter the war. Was the USSR Finns few?
    The author very beautifully painted a picture of what cases the BF could have done. I just forgot somehow the supply issues. In particular, the fuel that the ships in the combat campaign would gobble up in countless numbers. There must have been an excess of him in the besieged Leningrad .... And the author bypassed the issue of manning ships. Nobody was sent to the land front from the fleet? I believe that the crews of the existing ships had a huge shortage of personnel. Well, how do half of the personnel on a campaign with the ship handle?
    You can dream as much as you want. Now you can. And then, I believe, it was not up to fantasies ... the harsh reality of fantasies somehow has little to do with it.
  • Andrey VOV
    Andrey VOV 2 June 2020 09: 10 New
    0
    Regarding aviation .. the quantity in quantity, the main quality and experience ... in this case, the Baltic Fleet aviation was qualitatively inferior to the Luftwaffe
  • basal
    basal 13 July 2020 20: 59 New
    0
    How does the author imagine the activity of the Baltic Fleet? Take away tens or hundreds of tons of fuel oil from besieged Leningrad? For the incomprehensible significance and success of rides in the seas in waves? By the way, there are no oil wells or refineries in Leningrad. All the fuel came from the Big Earth. To produce shells for naval artillery instead of land and tanks? Oh well. By the way, battleships and forts were regularly supplied with "suitcases" (according to the author's classification) throughout the Blockade. The submarines that broke through the barriers, often at the cost of their lives, were also not deprived of scarce diesel fuel and torpedoes. They fought with whatever they could and how they could ... Well, did their radars help the Fritz?
  • Phoenix040
    Phoenix040 25 July 2020 10: 58 New
    +3
    The air forces of all countries had problems with torpedo bombers, because the losses were very high and the pilots simply did not have time to gain a lot of combat experience. At the beginning of the war, the Germans had problems with torpedoes, the fuses there either did not work at all, or worked unpredictably. Asses Doenitsa even staged a scandal, saying that their boats go into battle unarmed. The Germans also had problems with destroyers, not only because of torpedoes, but also because of unreliable engines and guns that were too heavy for manual supply of ammunition. The range of fire in the Baltic, as a rule, was relatively short, due to the frequent poor visibility associated with the capricious Baltic weather. The Germans had good guns, but the engines. Pocket battleships at full speed were noisy so that any submarine could hear them from afar. The Scharnhorst in Germany was considered almost a cursed ship, due to constant technical problems with it. With the LRS, the Germans also did not go smoothly, they were not important in terms of reliability and range, inferior in all British Asdiks. The Germans relied more on hydrophones, which were really good for them and partly replaced them with radars. What the Soviet Baltic Fleet could not boast of was the thickness of the armor of its old battleships and this, most likely, would have led to the fact that the meeting of Tirpitz with the October Revolution would end in the same way as the meeting of Bismarck with Hood.
  • ecolog
    ecolog 4 August 2020 15: 57 New
    0
    In WWI, they sat behind a mine and artillery position and were afraid that the line German fleet would come. Although Germany was then much more occupied by the allies and did not stand near Leningrad.
    The Soviet Baltic Fleet had difficulties and fuels and lubricants. The delivery of fuel for boats was managed through an underwater gas pipeline, and with large ships with other types of fuel it was more difficult. Anyway, the comparison - they have a battleship we have two is incorrect.
    Miroslav Morozov has good videos just about the Baltic Fleet before and during the war
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1roQO-cQg8