Who was the chief designer of the T-34?

Who was the chief designer of the T-34?

History create tank T-34 fell during the period of "great terror" and was largely tragic for its creators. According to canonical Soviet historiography, the creation of the T-34 is associated exclusively with the name of the chief designer Mikhail Koshkin, who replaced the repressed Afanasy Firsov in December 1936. It should be noted that to develop a breakthrough design of the tank, a design genius was needed, but Koshkin was not.


Start of development of the first Soviet tank


For an objective assessment of the contribution of each of them, it is necessary to return to the time when the Soviet tank school was just beginning to take shape. Until the end of the 20s, the Union had no tanks of its own design, only in 1927 the military issued requirements for the development of the first Soviet “maneuverable tank” with machine gun and cannon weapons. The development of the tank was transferred by the Main Design Bureau of the Gun-Arsenal Trust to Kharkov at the KhPZ named after The Comintern (Plant No. 183), where a specialized design group was created for the development of the tank (transformed in 1929 into the T2K tank design bureau), which was headed by a young talented designer Ivan Aleksenko (1904), who led the design bureau until 1931. The same young designers worked in the group, including the future chief designer Alexander Morozov.

In a short time, the designers developed documentation for the tank, and in 1929 a prototype T-12 tank was made. According to the test results, the tank was converted into a T-24 tank, a pilot batch of 25 vehicles was manufactured, and according to the test results, completion of their design began, but in June 1931 it was ordered to stop and begin designing the BT wheel-caterpillar tank.

This was due to the fact that the military leadership decided not to “develop from scratch” the development of domestic tanks, but to borrow the experience of Western designers and produce foreign tanks under license: the American “Christy” M1931, which became the prototype of the fast BT-2, and the English “Vickers” six-ton ​​”, which became the prototype of the light T-26. BT-2 production was placed at KhPZ, and T-26 at the Bolshevik Leningrad plant. So in the Union began to take shape two schools of tank building.

In Kharkov, the KhPZ management and designers opposed such a turn of events, were in no hurry to introduce BT-2 into production, and tried to complete the T-24 refinement. Moscow insisted on its decision, and work on the BT-2 slowly began to gain momentum. The head of the T2K design bureau, Aleksenko, believed that copying foreign equipment was unpatriotic, that you need to create your own tank school, and in disagreement filed an application and quit.

Only young people worked in the design bureau, mainly without a higher technical education, supporting Aleksenko with the aspirations to bring their T-24 tank. To strengthen the design bureau by the decision of the OGPU board in December 1931, the head of the design bureau was appointed a talented and experienced engineer Afanasy Firsov, who was sitting in one of Moscow "sharashka", sentenced to five years in prison for "wrecking activity". Firsov’s appointment played a crucial role for the Design Bureau and Soviet tank construction.

Who is Firsov


Firsov was born in 1883 in the family of a Berdyansk merchant, after graduating from a railway school, he received higher education at the Higher Technical School in Mitweide (Germany) and the Polytechnic Institute in Zurich (among other things, he graduated from Albert Einstein), specialized in the design of diesel engines. After graduating, he worked as a designer at the Zulzer plant.

In 1914 he returned to Russia, at the Kolomenskoye Machine-Building Plant he began to work on the creation of diesel engines for submarines, then he became the chief mechanic of the Krasnaya Etna plant in Nizhny Novgorod, and in 1927 at the Andre Marty Nikolaev plants, he became the chief engineer for diesel construction.

In 1929, as a representative of the "old regimes", he was involved in a case of a counter-revolutionary wrecking group at a factory, he pleaded not guilty and was not proved, but in connection with such suspicions he quit in 1929 and moved to Leningrad, where he was invited as a specialist to the factory "Russian diesel".

The year 1930 was on, the trial of the members of the Industrial Party began, among the accused there was a close acquaintance of Firsov, he was reminded of the "Nikolaev case", arrested, and sentenced to five years in prison. A qualified specialist, he worked in one of the Moscow “sharashka” under the direct supervision of Ordzhonikidze, here he began to deal with the problems of tank building, and in 1931, under guard, was sent to Kharkov to head the “rebellious” tank design bureau.

At first, the team of creators of the T-24 did not very warmly welcome the appointee “from above,” but the gifted and versatile Firsov, an engineer with encyclopedic knowledge, quickly gained authority and respect. According to contemporaries, being under round-the-clock control of the OGPU and living at the factory, since the family remained in Leningrad, he plunged into work with his head. Firsov was able to well and clearly organize the work of his subordinates, restrained, balanced in communication, he sought to convey his experience to subordinates. Together with them he studied technical innovations of foreign companies, encouraged the study of foreign languages.

Development of a family of BT tanks and a B2 diesel engine


Firsov was given the task of organizing a high-quality production of BT-2 tanks at the plant, which had many flaws and defects in the main units, power plant and chassis units. The Liberty engine, purchased in the United States, was capricious, often overheated, and there were cases of ignition during start-up. The development of serial production of these tanks was also difficult due to the lack of a base at the plant capable of mastering the production of a new tank in such quantities. Complaints about the failure of gearboxes often came from the army.

Firsov with a team of young designers put a lot of work to refine the design of the tank and improve its production technology. Gradually, the problems disappeared, under his leadership the BT-5 and BT-7 tanks were developed, which continued the line of vehicles of this family. In 1935, for the development of the BT-7 tank, Firsov was awarded the Order of the Red Banner.

Since 1932, at the plant, under the leadership of the chief of diesel cladding, Konstantin Chelpan, the development of the 400-strong tank diesel engine BD-2 (high-speed diesel), the future B2, was carried out. Chelpan has repeatedly testified that a qualified diesel specialist Firsov made a great contribution to the creation of this engine. The military and Stalin personally closely monitored the progress of diesel work. The first sample of the DB-2 was demonstrated to the country's leadership in 1934. For this development, the plant, director Bondarenko and Chelpan were awarded the orders of Lenin.

The concept of a new tank and repression


While improving the BT wheeled-tracked tanks, an experienced engineer Firsov saw that this was a dead end, there could be no breakthrough. He began to look for ways to create a fundamentally new tank, under his leadership a small group of Alexander Morozov, Mikhail Tarshinov and Vasily Vasiliev during 1935 led the development of such a tank.

Firsov laid the primary technical appearance of the future T-34 and its main technical characteristics. Vasiliev recalled:

Already at the end of 1935 on the desk of the chief designer lay elaborated sketches of a fundamentally new tank: protivosnaryadny booking with large angles of inclination, long-barrel 76,2 mm gun, V-2 diesel engine, weight up to 30 tons ...

From the tank of the BT family, the new tank inherited a completely welded hull and a Christie suspension, and a wheel-tracked mover was abandoned in favor of a purely tracked one.

In 1936, KhPZ them. The Comintern is renamed to factory No. 183, and KB T2K is assigned the KB-190 index, the design bureau is working on the components and assemblies of the new tank, but in the summer of 1936 repressions begin at the factory. The reason was the mass complaints from the troops due to the failure of the BT-7 tank gearboxes. There really were constructive flaws in the tank’s design, in addition, the troops were carried away by spectacular ski jumping from the springboard, which naturally affected the BT-7’s performance. The car began to be called a "wrecking tank", Firsov was removed from his post, but left to work in the design bureau.

Instead of Firsov, in December 1936 Ordzhonikidze, who knew Mikhail Koshkin well, transferred him from Leningrad to Kharkov and appointed him head of KB-190. Firsov personally met the new chief designer, who continued to work in the design bureau until his arrest and painstakingly brought him up to date.

In a short time, Morozov, under the leadership of Firsov, developed a new gearbox, put it into production, and the issue was closed, but 1937 and the Great Terror were approaching. Firsov did not forget his "wrecking activity" in Nikolaev and Leningrad. In March 1937 he was again arrested and sent to prison in Moscow. For some time he was kept there together with another “pest” - aircraft designer Tupolev.

The repressions affected not only Firsov, who was soon shot, but many of the managers and engineers of the plant and design bureau. In 1937, a commission was sent to the plant from Moscow to find out the reasons for the low quality of the BD-2 engines, which revealed flaws in the design of the engine and non-compliance with its production technology.

According to the results of the commission's work, the engine was finalized, making up to two thousand changes to it, but organizational conclusions were made. Chelpan was removed from work and in December 1937 was arrested along with the designers: diesel engineers Trashutin, Aptekman, Levitan and Gurtov, everyone except Trashutin was shot for "wrecking", the latter was released in 1939. The chief engineer of the Lyashch plant, the chief metallurgist Metantsev and many other engineers and military representatives are being arrested. In May 1938, the director of the Bondarenko plant was arrested and soon shot.

According to Vasiliev, the repression caused a real phobia in KB-190. He recalled:

"I must say, I personally suffered this phobia very hard, slept and listened to the sounds of the approaching" black raven "with a couple of people in civilian clothes, inviting you to politely follow them."

Under such conditions of fear and expectation of arrest, the development of a new tank continued.

Who is Koshkin


After Firsov, KB-190 was adopted by Koshkin. Who was he before? Koshkin was a party functionary and established himself as a good organizer. He was personally acquainted with Ordzhonikidze and Kirov. Two years before his appointment to Kharkov, he graduated from the Leningrad Polytechnic Institute and then worked as a designer in the tank design bureau of the Leningrad Plant named after Kirov. On this his experience in the development of tanks ended. Ordzhonikidze sent him to KB-190 as an experienced organizer to resolve the difficult situation at the tank factory.

Koshkin really turned out to be a talented leader, he appreciated the young team of designers and the uniqueness of the new tank concept proposed by Firsov. Prior to that, he worked in fairly high administrative and party positions and was a member of the higher courts, where he managed to prove the prospects of working on a new tank and persuaded him not to continue repressions against KB employees. Under the leadership of Koshkin, work on the tank in that difficult situation continued.

Confrontation Koshkin and Dick


To strengthen the KB-190, in June 1937 an adjunct of the Moscow Military Academy of Mechanization and Motorization was sent to a 3rd-rank military engineer Dick with not entirely clear goals. Part of the designers subordinated to him, and dual power reigned in the bureau, which could not end in anything good. During this period, the Design Bureau worked on the modernization of the BT-7 tank and the development of a new BT-9 tank, distinguished by the presence of six driving wheels, a diesel engine, a conical tower with a 45-mm or 76-mm cannon and inclined armor. The joint work of Koshkin and Dick did not work out, they accused each other of incorrect design decisions, of disrupting, and sometimes sabotaging, the works. The number of mutual complaints grew, but the work did not move.

The Moscow leadership was tired of conflicts, and in September 1937 the tank KB-190 was divided into two. A separate design bureau, led by Dick, was directly subordinated to the chief engineer of the plant, and Doroshenko, Tarshinov, Gorbenko, Morozov, and Vasiliev became the heads of sections in the design bureau. The design bureau was to replenish 50 graduates of the military academy, and as a consultant they brought in the famous tank test captain Kulchitsky.

Koshkin remained the head of KB-190, which was supposed to be exclusively engaged in the development of modernized versions of the BT-7, and the design bureau was to develop a new tank BT-9 (BT-20), serial production was supported by KB-35.

In October 1937, a TTT was issued for a new wheeled-tracked tank with three pairs of driving wheels, a frontal armor thickness of 25 mm, a 45 mm or 76,2 mm cannon and a diesel engine.

The development of the new tank was based on the concept of Firsov, which was further developed by Morozov and Tarshinov. The wave of arrests that swept through the plant in November-December 1937 disorganized the work on the new tank, Dick was accused of disrupting the work, who was arrested in April 1938 and sentenced to ten years, this ended his career.

Koshkin completes the development of the tank


Further it is not entirely clear how Koshkin in those conditions creates a KB-24 and continues work on a new tank. At least in mid-March 1938, at a meeting of the board of the Armored Command and at the end of March at a meeting of the Defense Committee, the design of the wheeled and tracked tank was presented by Koshkin and Morozov. The preliminary design of the tank was approved with comments increasing the reservation to 30 mm and installing a 76,2 mm gun. At the same time, under the direction of Koshkin, at the end of 1938, the BT-7M tank with a B2 engine was developed and put into serial production, which confirmed the possibility of using a new diesel engine on the tank.

Koshkin continued to fight for the tracked version of the tank, and in September 1938 the plant was tasked with developing two versions of the tank: the wheel-tracked A20 and the tracked A-20G (A32).

To combine efforts, all three design bureaus of the plant are combined into one KB-520 headed by Koshkin, Morozov became deputy chief designer, and Kucherenko became deputy head of the design bureau. In the shortest possible time, tank samples were made, and in June-August 1939 they were tested at the training ground in Kharkov. Both tanks passed the test, but the design of the A-32 was much simpler due to the lack of complex wheeled propulsors and had a margin of weight.

In September, when showing armored vehicles to the leadership of the Ministry of Defense, the A-20 and A32 participated, where the latter performed very effectively. According to the results of tests and shows, it was decided to stay on the tracked version of the A-32 tank, increasing its armor protection to 45 mm.

Urgent production of two A-32 tanks began at the plant. Knots and parts of the tank were carefully made and meticulously assembled, threaded joints were saturated with hot oil, and the exterior surfaces of the hull and turret were carefully finished. Experienced apparatchik Koshkin knew perfectly well that when showing tanks to the top leadership there are no trifles.

Then there was the well-known tank run from Kharkov to Moscow, the successful showing of tanks to Stalin in the Kremlin, the run back to Kharkov, Koshkin’s illness and tragic death. After the show at the highest level, the tanks were tested on the Kubinka and the Karelian Isthmus, the tank was highly appreciated by Stalin himself, he was given a ticket to life.

So, the design genius of Firsov and the organizational talents of Koshkin were able to create a machine that became the symbol of Victory in that terrible war under the conditions of the unfolding repression and misunderstanding by the military of the prospects for the development of tanks. Both of them, undoubtedly, made an enormous contribution to the creation of this machine, but to attribute all laurels only to Koshkin is unfair.

The concept of the tank and its layout was conceived by Firsov, under his leadership, the main components of the tank were developed in the design bureaus, and specialists who began to design the tank under the guidance of Firsov completed the development of the tank. The backbone of the leading designers was saved, and Koshkin in that tragic situation organized the work to complete the development of the tank and secured its adoption. The names of Firsov and Koshkin, as the main designers of the T-34, can worthily stand nearby.
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  1. then April 6 2020 04: 56 New
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    "The doctoral dissertation is written by the doctor of sciences, and the doctoral by the candidate." :)
    1. Den717 April 6 2020 17: 17 New
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      Quote: sedan
      Doctoral dissertation is written by a doctor of sciences

      Who wrote to you? laughing
      1. then April 8 2020 04: 14 New
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        It is understood that the direction of the study, relevance, topic, task, method of solution, the intended result of the candidate dissertation is determined by the supervisor, usually a doctor of science. (Joke :)
  2. Strashila April 6 2020 05: 20 New
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    “Koshkin really turned out to be a talented leader, he appreciated the young team of designers and the uniqueness of the concept of the new tank proposed by Firsov.”, This is key. The rest is blah blah.
    1. Uncle lee April 6 2020 06: 15 New
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      The names of Firsov and Koshkin, as the main designers of the T-34, can worthily stand nearby.
      And there was a T-34 tank!
      1. novel66 April 6 2020 10: 27 New
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        make a working structure from the outline ...
        1. Walking April 6 2020 11: 48 New
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          There was only a concept or a blueprint, it could just be in words, it seems, was developed by Firsov, and the tank itself and all the drawings were designed by the design bureau led by Koshkin, when Firsov had not been at the factory for three years. The question is what does Firsov have to do with it?
          1. novel66 April 6 2020 14: 05 New
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            and patamushto all Stalin is to blame ...
      2. zenion April 12 2020 14: 08 New
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        This cannot be. So, as the people, in spite of Stalin defeated the Germans, so in spite of the rest they created tanks and everything else. Similarly, the composer takes folk tunes and creates a symphony, or somewhere else. And then people with diplomas come, put their signatures and say that the product is their work. The American historian wrote about the battle of Moscow as follows: then Zhukov surpassed the Far Eastern troops near Moscow and defeated the Germans. Apparently he imagined so that Zhukov could do everything he wanted.
    2. zenion April 8 2020 16: 50 New
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      I discovered this secret, only I can share. They wanted to build a tank under this name in the USA. They even figured out where to put the rollers, but did not have time. In the USSR, having guessed from the skating rinks that it would not be a tractor, but a tank, this idea with skating rinks was stolen and the USSR designers created the T-34 tank on the basis of these skating rinks, which offended not only the USA, but also Hitler. Now it doesn’t matter who invented the rollers for tanks, it is important who put them and released them together with the tank. A lot of things could whistle in the States, but the designers of Stalin managed to do this earlier than the US guys thought of it. Of course, thanks to the USA people for beating the Germans in Stalingrad and grinding them in the Kursk. It was they who released the prisoners of Auschwitz and stormed Berlin. They could have done even more, but their impulse was spent on how to defeat the Red Army, but the USSR did not help them and this undertaking failed. Now of course, you need to gouge the history of the USSR, as today's stories are absolutely not glued. So you need to confuse the gyrus, and not allow the gray cells to decide for themselves. Is the USSR correctly defeated the West, or wrong ?!
  3. svp67 April 6 2020 05: 21 New
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    In principle, the author briefly told everything. That since the mid-30s the “concept of the thirty-four” has been embedded in KhPZ projects, gradually crystallizing out. Was Koshkin the only father of the T-34? No. But if he is not the "father" of this tank, then what is his merit? And here the answer is only one - it is huge. Being an excellent organizer, he was able to drop everything superfluous and direct the work of the design bureau in the right direction. Before him, all the good ideas and designs simply “perished” due to fluidity, as the designers were simply “torn apart” to solve specific every-minute tasks. Which led to constant disruption of work on the experimental design ... and in particular for this reason the chief designers were periodically "cleaned up", which should be very regretted. But no one at that time of ideas about the formation of "scarabs", where these "pests" could "honestly wash away all their sins and sins," did not occur ... these ideas came later, when many of these people were already destroyed. So, a huge THANKS to everyone who, despite everything, was able to generate an idea, carry out all the design work and arrange the release of the “tank of our VICTORY”
    1. mat-vey April 6 2020 06: 12 New
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      Quote: svp67
      That since the mid-30s the “concept of the thirty-four” has been embedded in KhPZ projects, gradually crystallizing out.

      And it was Koshkin, using all his connections going back to the Civil War and the time of party work, brought to the very top that everything had already “crystallized” and that it was necessary to lose production time and at the same time bring it to mind ..
      1. svp67 April 6 2020 06: 53 New
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        Quote: mat-vey
        And it was Koshkin, using all his connections going back to the Civil War and the time of party work, brought to the very top that everything had already “crystallized” and that it was necessary to lose production time and at the same time bring it to mind ..

        Do not overestimate the role of designers, although the main ones in this process. They were still executors of the task. And there were plant directors, workers of the People’s Commissariat, and most importantly there was the main customer - the People’s Commissar of Defense, who set the main task for the development of technology. And it was NCOs that set the task of Design Bureau KB 183 to design new medium tanks, both wheeled and tracked. And it was not the chief designer who decided which tank would go into the series, namely the military, who had already learned the bitter experience of Spain, Halkin-Gol, and most importantly the "winter war"
        1. mat-vey April 6 2020 06: 58 New
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          To carry out the “presentation,” Koshkin used all his acquaintances to the top leadership of the country to meet with Stalin. Or do you also think that the run was collective farm and at our own expense? That the unobstructed run was held thanks to God and Mars, the NKVD temporarily closed its eyes, lost its vigilance, so to speak?
          1. svp67 April 6 2020 07: 27 New
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            Quote: mat-vey
            To carry out the “presentation,” Koshkin used all his acquaintances to the leadership of the country to meet with Stalin.

            This "presentation" was needed not only by Koshkin, but by the plant director Maksarev, who was appointed to this position in the 38th year (and where did the newcomer go?) And, most importantly, the drug addict Malyshev. That's who moved the display of this tank to Stalin. And since for this it was necessary that the tanks successfully passed a certain minimum of tests, it was decided to send the tanks to Moscow on their own, in order to roll the required minimum mileage. By the way, tanks moved along the roads, all who lived in the slightest bit in Russia and the USSR, should imagine what our country roads are actually in the winter. These are quite “passable” directions for tracked vehicles ...
            More difficulties arose when these cars returned during the thaw that had begun.
            1. mat-vey April 6 2020 08: 41 New
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              Quote: svp67
              This "presentation" was needed not only by Koshkin, but by the plant director Maksarev, who was appointed to this position in the 38th year (and where did the newcomer go?) And, most importantly, the drug addict Malyshev.

              What is needed can and is needed, and why did everything break through Koshkin, a simple general designer.
              1. svp67 April 6 2020 10: 10 New
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                Quote: mat-vey
                What is needed can and is needed, and why did everything break through Koshkin, a simple general designer.

                Silenok would not have been enough for him. Moreover, he was a "Sergo man", and this then already caused "slanting glances". Yes, he could offer such a thing, but the people from the People’s Commissar advanced and agreed on this issue, who were also interested in this. And the main interested was Malyshev. Only with his support could such a run take place, otherwise, as soon as the tanks, secret experimental tanks, would leave the factory territory and go “somewhere to the side”, the NKVD task forces would rush in pursuit of them, and they would carry out arrests at the factory.
                The NKVD had a developed intelligence network both at the plant and in the design bureau
                TOP SECRET
                comrade Khrushchev
                comrade Kobulov
                REPORT NOTE

                About structural defects and delay in production of the release of new A-34 tanks at factory No. 183 in Kharkov

                When designing the tank A-34, under the leadership of the chief designer of the plant number 183 engineer. KOSHKINA, a number of defects were identified that affect the combat qualities of the machine.
                The driver’s booth of the first prototype of the tank was created from the conditions of a large view forward and to the sides, due to which it turned out without an exit - a hatch for the driver and an arrow located next to him. The last exit from the car was provided through the hatch of the tower.
                The lack of a hatch in the driver's booth, in addition to inconvenience, will greatly affect the team's fatigue before the fight. In addition, if in a combat situation the tower hatch is jammed, the whole team will be locked in the car and will not be able to exit.
                The representative of ABTU PANOV was aware of the matter, but nevertheless agreed to the design of the booth without a hatch, without sharply raising the question before Koshkin about ensuring the design and side view and the hatch in the driver's booth.
                KOSHKIN and his deputy MOROZOV, instead of working towards creating a structure with a hatch and a side view, raised the question: either with a hatch without a view, or a side view, but without a hatch.
                The above design of the booth was canceled by the head of ABTU RKKA Comcor Comrade. Pavlov when armor parts were already made.
                KOSHKIN instructed the designer of the transmission group BARONU to design the second version of the booth with a hatch for the driver, who had never worked on armored parts and considers himself incompetent in this work. As a result, the design of the driver's booth with a hatch turned out to be weak in strength, unable to withstand the impact of shells.
                In addition, in the BARON construction booth, it is possible to open the hatch only when the gun barrel is withdrawn, for which the driver needs to rotate the latter 90 degrees.
                All the design flaws of the driver's booth were promptly indicated by the head. hull section, design engineer TARSHINOV, who considered this project unsuitable for serial machines.
                Koshkin, instead of taking these remarks into account and instructing an experienced designer - a corpsman to make a project without these defects, ordered to urgently detail the driver's booth according to the design of BARON.
                Pointing out the design flaws of the booth, the engineer TARSHINOV himself proposed to develop the project of the latter, but was sent by KOSHKIN on a business trip to the mountains. Mariupol, although there was no need for him to go.
                Returning from a business trip, engineer TARSHINOV developed and proposed a booth design with side views and a hatch, for the opening of which it is not necessary to rotate the tower. In addition, the entire booth is able to withstand the impact of shells.
                Due to the change in the armor parts of the booth, the driver, the assembly of the body of the second prototype of the car was delayed for two weeks. The cost of all these alterations and additional parts is about 100 thousand rubles.
                In order to cover up squandering funds, KOSHKIN prepares a driver’s booth for launching according to the design of BARON, and according to the design of engineer TARSHINOV, the production will for some reason be carried out as a prototype.
                In addition, according to our data, a big drawback of the tank design is that only 38 machine-gun disks fit in the car, which clearly reduces the combat power of the car.
                KOSHKIN believes that in the finished machine there will be places where allegedly it will be possible to place an additional number of machine-gun disks, although there are no such areas in the design data in the machine.
                In essence, the NKVD of the USSR was notified of the adoption of appropriate measures through the People's Commissariat of Transport and the Red Army’s ABTU.

                Deputy People's Commissar of Internal Affairs of the Ukrainian SSR
                Gorlinsky.
                7 February 1940 city
                1. mat-vey April 6 2020 10: 25 New
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                  Quote: svp67
                  Silenok would not have been enough for him.

                  Well, a personal acquaintance with Kirov and Ordzhenikidze does not mean anything ...
                  1. svp67 April 6 2020 10: 29 New
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                    Quote: mat-vey
                    Well, a personal acquaintance with Kirov and Ordzhenikidze does not mean anything ...

                    At that time, no longer, especially with the last one ... Sergo decided to “leave” in time, otherwise it would not be known what would have been done to him
                    1. mat-vey April 6 2020 10: 37 New
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                      To be honest, I don’t have any desire to look for where I read how Koshkin got this “motor rally”, but he did it through a former acquaintance in the Civil War, who personally could have put in the word to Stalin, but warned that Koshkin is at great risk because that mess and snitching is going on Stalin is very annoying in this "department" ... I have long read someone from the highest civil commissioners, I don’t remember and once again I will rummage through the scrap bookmarks ... After this meeting, the shortage of hours and kilometers was settled by run ..
                2. vladcub April 6 2020 12: 26 New
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                  All the same, 1940 - not 1937. If such a report, but in fact a denunciation, went in 1937?
                  1. svp67 April 6 2020 13: 57 New
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                    Quote: vladcub
                    What is called guess one time

                    But is Dick and Firsov just like that, "swept"? There were their "denunciations"
                    1. vladcub April 6 2020 17: 11 New
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                      I say that if such a denunciation was on Koshkin in 1937 then ...
                      By the way, we don’t know who “hit” Dick, Firsov and what is the fate of the “watchful”
                      1. svp67 April 6 2020 19: 23 New
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                        Quote: vladcub
                        I say that if such a denunciation was on Koshkin in 1937 then ...
                        By the way, we don’t know who “hit” Dick, Firsov and what is the fate of the “watchful”

                        Koshkin, unlike Firsov and Dick, was a WINNER. He was able to fulfill the task of the party and government, but his previous comrades failed him. The saddest thing is that the same Firsov, several years earlier, was the same winner, even received a state award, but it was worth identifying a number of serious design flaws in the tanks produced by the KhPZ, as he was remembered by all his past real and imaginary sins, demoted, arrested , condemned and shot ...
                        But with Dick, everything is somehow strange, in the middle of the summer of the 37th he arrived at the KhPZ, got KB under his leadership, started working, but in the autumn a commission arrived and in November of the 37th he was already arrested, convicted and sent to camps. .. He was simply not allowed to work at all. And why, this is a big mystery.
                        I’m sure that Koshkina could have expected a similar fate if she hadn’t slowed down the “Moloch repressions”. And the fact that “daddies” were constantly filling up on him, so I don’t even doubt it. Firstly, because of the general atmosphere of denunciations, and secondly, because of the specific manner of his leadership, he himself liked to immediately punish the guilty workers, draftsmen and engineers with a stick with which he constantly walked, from behind below his back ... so that there were enough people offended by him
          2. Aviator_ April 6 2020 17: 16 New
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            By this time, the leadership had changed in the NKVD - instead of Yezhov, Beria was appointed to the post, who began with the rehabilitation of those planted earlier. It’s a pity, it didn’t help Firsov.
        2. vladcub April 6 2020 12: 13 New
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          "Do not overestimate the role of designers", but do not underestimate. Let’s say the director of the plant is a genius, in the People’s Commissariat everyone is smart, and the designer is “especially gifted”, what will happen?
          1. svp67 April 6 2020 13: 58 New
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            Quote: vladcub
            The director of the plant is a genius, everyone in the People’s Commissariat is smart, and the designer is "gifted", what will happen?

            The old constructor will be lowered, well, if they don’t imprison and appoint a new ...
            1. vladcub April 6 2020 17: 19 New
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              This is so, but there were wise men who preliminarily “translated the arrows”. If he is a good demagogue, he’ll start to beat himself in the chest: with all my heart, but ... Ivanov, by the way, Ivanov was drinking with Petrov, and a relative of the enemy of the people Sidorov. How many were there
        3. Den717 April 6 2020 17: 32 New
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          Quote: svp67
          And not the chief designer decided

          Instead of this argument, I would put a candle in the glory of the fate of this tank, whose parents, baptists, and other outside helpers happily converged on one point. It is difficult to understand today whose contribution in this matter is the most impressive. However, we do not know the whole background of the fate of this car. Of the 4 million denunciations written in those years, there were many around those people associated with this machine. Then it was not an easy time. Few people thought about what became the cause of mass denunciation and perjury in different periods in different countries. The answer lies on the surface. A passion for denunciations from a false understanding of a sense of justice is evidence of mental illness. Pounded - people with mental disorders. It is hard to believe, but even today such patients are found. Slightly fortunate for luck, right after him a bunch of spiteful critics hanged a hundred crimes. Nobody has investigated anything yet, but he, according to many loafers, is already in the "camp of the enemy." It’s good that today our “organs” live on their own and do not read pearls from some sites. laughing
          1. svp67 April 7 2020 05: 13 New
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            Quote: Den717
            A passion for denunciations from a false understanding of a sense of justice is evidence of mental illness.

            It seems that in Europe and the United States the epidemic of this disease
            1. Den717 April 7 2020 07: 44 New
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              Quote: svp67
              It seems that in Europe and the United States the epidemic of this disease

              And who said that we are unique in this?
            2. Octopus April 7 2020 09: 42 New
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              Quote: svp67
              It seems that in Europe and the United States the epidemic of this disease

              Have you already shot a lot there? Or for you, your penalty for improper parking is equal to the execution for Trotskyism among the Didov?
              1. svp67 April 7 2020 10: 18 New
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                Quote: Octopus
                Have you already shot a lot there? Or for you, your penalty for improper parking is equal to the execution for Trotskyism among the Didov?

                And you about "McCarthyism," have you heard?
                1. Liam April 7 2020 10: 24 New
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                  Quote: svp67
                  And you about "McCarthyism," have you heard?

                  How many millions of Americans were shot or deported to mines in Alaska during the massive and terrible terror unleashed by Senator McCarthy?
                2. Octopus April 7 2020 11: 09 New
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                  Quote: svp67
                  And you about "McCarthyism," have you heard?

                  And how can a senator unleash terror? What powers does he have for this?

                  McCarthy is a heavy drinking parliamentary chatterbox. The culprit is Eisenhower. And not at all because McCarthy indulged. And because he himself was smeared with cooperation with the Councils on the ears and translated McCarthy’s activity in investigating the anti-American activities of Roosevelt, Truman and the State Department into a safe path for himself against Charlie Chaplin, gays and blacks.

                  Eisenhower was not Charlie Chaplin, gay or black. Eisenhower was an incompetent fool, a coward, a liar and a traitor. Naturally, he tried to ensure that these last categories of the population from terror mccarthy not hurt in any way.
    2. Aaron Zawi April 6 2020 07: 31 New
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      Quote: svp67
      In principle, the author briefly told everything. That since the mid-30s the “concept of the thirty-four” has been embedded in KhPZ projects, gradually crystallizing out. Was Koshkin the only father of the T-34? No. But if he is not the "father" of this tank, then what is his merit? And here the answer is only one - it is huge. Being an excellent organizer, he was able to drop everything superfluous and direct the work of the design bureau in the right direction. Before him, all the good ideas and designs simply “perished” due to fluidity, as the designers were simply “torn apart” to solve specific every-minute tasks. Which led to constant disruption of work on the experimental design ... and in particular for this reason the chief designers were periodically "cleaned up", which should be very regretted. But no one at that time of ideas about the formation of "scarabs", where these "pests" could "honestly wash away all their sins and sins," did not occur ... these ideas came later, when many of these people were already destroyed. So, a huge THANKS to everyone who, despite everything, was able to generate an idea, carry out all the design work and arrange the release of the “tank of our VICTORY”

      I agree. Israel Tal "Merkava's father" had nothing to do with the design of armored vehicles, but it was he who managed to create a design school and a full tank production in a country with a population of 4 million people. The organizer and leader in production is no less important than a talented designer.
      1. AUL
        AUL April 6 2020 12: 18 New
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        I think S.P. Korolev, too, did not draw all the drawings himself on the culman! The task of the Chief Designer is to create the ideology of the future product, select personnel for its implementation, organize the work of the team and ensure its work financially, as well as fend off the arrivals of higher sages with their checks, new requirements and tips for improvement!
        1. vladcub April 6 2020 14: 54 New
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          "fight off the arrivals of higher sages," and for this you need to be a brave and good demagogue. Apparently, Koshkin possessed this: ““ he persuaded him not to continue repressions against the employees of his design bureau ”, and then it was“ fashionable ”in the second and third circles with repressions
          1. Den717 April 6 2020 17: 35 New
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            Quote: vladcub
            you need to be a brave and good demagogue. Apparently, Koshkin had this

            Demagogy (dr. Greek: “leadership of the people”; “ingratiation of the people”) is a set of oratory and polemic tricks and means to mislead the audience ... I repent, this is not a bit about Koshkin. wink
      2. Potter April 6 2020 19: 46 New
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        Given that everything in the design of the merkava was already invented in the USSR, and in Israel this design was only worsened - industrial espionage and theft of technology. Type machine Galil. That's the same merkava.
  4. Sahalinets April 6 2020 05: 37 New
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    You read about all these executions and landings and you think that through the efforts of the NKVD, the country was so damaged that the Germans would need another 15 tank divisions ...
    1. Aleksandr72 April 6 2020 06: 10 New
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      You read about all these executions and landings and you think that through the efforts of the NKVD, the country was so damaged that the Germans would need another 15 tank divisions ...
      But on the other hand, you understand that if it were not for these "efforts" of the NKVD, then many of our designers of military equipment and weapons (and not only) would continue to fool around, scribbling at each other denunciations for funding and awards with orders, but it was would. It’s enough to recall Taubin, who promised a lot of things but didn’t, and thanks to him our promising fighters in that war were left without a 23-mm air cannon, Tupolev, who finally took up his mind only in a “sharashka”. Yes, and other big names enough. Naturally, some of them were very unlucky - they were shot, not to say that they were not at all for the cause, but probably such radical measures could be dispensed with. Others, sitting in “sharaga”, gave out the equipment to the mountain, on which the Red Army defeated and eventually entered Berlin.
      As for who was still the chief designer of the T-34: if in brief Firsov developed the concept of a medium tank, which became the evolutionary development of the BT series: the BT-2-7 - A-20 - T-32 - T-34 line. In this regard, the design of the T-34 (by the way, not the most successful in many respects and definitely not the most reliable and technologically advanced, but without any doubt - the most repairable, which was the most important for those conditions) is not a breakthrough - everything that was applied on the T- 34: bulletproof (relatively) armor with rational tilt angles, Christie pendant, etc. already been. The main thing in the design of the T-34 is that all this is combined together. Morozov finalized the design of the tank, and Koshkin managed to organize the work of the design bureau and, as they would say now, make a presentation of the tank before the command of the Red Army and the country's leadership. I mean the mentioned tank mileage from Kharkov to Moscow and back. It cost Koshkin life, but gave the country a tank, though not the most perfect, but it appeared surprisingly on time, on which our tankers met the enemy on the western border in the 41st (frankly not very successful) and on which in the 45th they rode along Europe.
      1. mat-vey April 6 2020 06: 27 New
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        Quote: Aleksandr72
        make a presentation of the tank before the command of the Red Army and the country's leadership. I mean the mentioned tank mileage from Kharkov to Moscow and back.

        In order to carry out this “presentation”, you just needed permission and support at the very top and enlisted. Or do you think that it’s possible to get fuel and lubricant just like that, and documents with passes are made ...
      2. svp67 April 6 2020 07: 06 New
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        Quote: Aleksandr72
        But on the other hand, you understand that if it were not for these "efforts" of the NKVD, then many of our designers of military equipment and weapons (and not only) would continue to fool around, scribbling at each other denunciations for funding and awards with orders, but it was would.

        Yes, this is still half the trouble ... The trouble was that the designers could, at their request, spend the money allocated for specific projects. This process, Stalin aptly called "inventive itching." Korolev for what suffered? Just for that.
        Quote: Aleksandr72
        As for the one who was still the chief designer of the T-34: if in a nutshell Firsov developed the concept of a medium tank that became the evolutionary development of the BT series: the BT-2-7 - A-20 - T-32 - T-34 line .. .. The main thing in the design of the T-34 is that all this is combined together. Morozov finalized the design of the tank, and Koshkin managed to organize the work of the Design Bureau

        The surname of Dick Adolf Yakovlevich is missing on your list. It was he, and not Morozov, who developed the basic technical solutions of the A-20 and A-20g tanks, which became the forerunner of the T-34
        Quote: Aleksandr72
        make a presentation of the tank before the command of the Red Army and the country's leadership. I mean the mentioned tank mileage from Kharkov to Moscow and back.

        Not quite right ... The run was organized for that, so that the tank could be seen under the light of the eyes of the Soviet leadership, or as you say: "To the presentation"
        1. Aleksandr72 April 6 2020 08: 27 New
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          I agree with you. But to cover all in one comment is impossible. To do this, you need to write a detailed article. More than one monograph has already been written about the ups and downs in the creation, acceptance on armament and production launch of the T-34. Many well-known specialist historians in the field of armored vehicles and the use of tank troops wrote about this. Repeating them is an ungrateful work and I see no point in this. And the main merit of Koshkin as one of the main designers of the T-34 Victory tank is that he managed to organize the design bureau’s work to finalize the tank’s design and achieve its adoption by the Red Army, including and having organized a run from Kharkov to Moscow and back. Actually about the same article.
        2. John22 April 6 2020 10: 12 New
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          Forgot to mention Tsyganov. He also worked in the Kharkov Design Bureau and created the BT-SV-2 Turtle tank with very slanted armor. He was also repressed. In my opinion, NPO did not really understand what the army needed. But to look around the mind was not enough. The West abandoned the wheeled-tracked engines, and the NGOs held on to it until 1939. In addition, in order to support new ideas, it was necessary to give designers the opportunity to work independently, and not reduce them to one KB. In the USSR they loved, for political purposes, to create legends about the nuggets of their people, and they simply were silent about the repressions.
          1. svp67 April 6 2020 10: 17 New
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            Quote: John22
            In my opinion, NPO did not really understand what the army needed.

            Before the Finnish war, some kind of "fermentation" was still observed, after it no longer existed. After it, the High Command realized that we needed tanks with good armor and excellent cross-country ability, and it was not for nothing that one of the test stages in the year 40 was carried out at the barriers of the Mannerheim line
          2. mat-vey April 6 2020 11: 29 New
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            Quote: John22
            The West abandoned the wheeled-tracked movers, and the NGOs held on to it until 1939

            What can you say for the production of Hatfield steel in the USSR?
          3. vladcub April 6 2020 15: 01 New
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            Unfortunately, some people still love this theory.
          4. Alexey RA April 6 2020 15: 03 New
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            Quote: John22
            Forgot to mention Tsyganov. He also worked in the Kharkov Design Bureau and created the BT-SV-2 Turtle tank with very slanted armor. He was also repressed.

            But before that I managed to write a denunciation on Firsov, and on the management of the plant as a whole.
            ... the production was delayed due to: the pest Firsov, the former head of the design bureau at the KhPZ plant, where it was transferred by the pest Neiman, the former head of the Special Mastrest; at the factory number 48 (Kharkov), where those. The director was the wrecker-fascist Simsky, who dragged the fascist Gakkel to plant No. 48 and placed him at the head of BT-IS production. ... Farmanyants - Deputy Head of the 8th Ch..Upr.NKOP tried to disrupt the release of BT-IS. ... your intervention is needed

            © letter "On pests in the manufacture of BT-IS" military equipment of the 2nd rank N. F. Tsyganov. Sent to the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks. Stalin and comrade Voroshilov October 26, 1937
        3. Octopus April 6 2020 11: 04 New
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          Quote: svp67
          The trouble was that the designers could, at their request, spend the days allotted for specific projects.

          What's the trouble? Did they shove them offshore?
          Quote: svp67
          Korolev for what suffered? Just for that.

          Of course for that. Not that the chiefs of NII 3 turned out to be the Trotskyists as one, starting with Tukhachevsky, the patron of this organization.
          Quote: svp67
          missing surname Dick Adolf Yakovlevich

          Another enemy of the people.
          1. svp67 April 6 2020 14: 01 New
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            Quote: Octopus
            What's the trouble? Did they shove them offshore?

            They commissioned a specific project, which was expected to be tested and possible to use, and they satisfied their "design itch" by spending money on the implementation of new ideas ... This is called - misuse of funds
            1. Octopus April 6 2020 14: 28 New
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              Quote: svp67
              They ordered a specific project, which was expected to be tested and possible to be adopted, and they satisfied their "design itch"

              So what?
              You have not heard anything about the work on an initiative basis? Did you take money from them from the nightstand? This we are not talking specifically about the Queen, who didn’t do her telecontrol on an initiative basis, but according to a work plan approved by the director of the Scientific Research Institute Kleimenov, an enemy of the people, Hero of Labor posthumously.
              1. Alexey RA April 6 2020 15: 07 New
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                Quote: Octopus
                You have not heard anything about the work on an initiative basis? Did you take money from them from the nightstand?

                The problem is that the 30s designers did not take initiative projects after completing the main order, but instead. The customer allocated money for a guided missile - but received ... received nothing - no money, no rocket. And the most annoying thing is that there will be no rocket, the Contractor knew long before the deadline for the project (control system - yok), but the Customer did not notify about it.
                1. Octopus April 6 2020 15: 21 New
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                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  The Contractor knew long before the deadline for the project (management system - yok), but the Customer did not notify.

                  1. And what? Which research institute 3 cares about the problems of allies? Why is the customer not aware of it himself?
                  2. And who in NII 3 is responsible for the work plan? Really Korolev with Glushko? Or is it still the chief engineer Langemak, another hero of labor posthumously?
                  3. By the way, what kind of problems do the allies have? They weren’t shot by the hour?
                  4. And what about fuss? If you count on Katyusha shots?
                2. ser56 April 8 2020 20: 45 New
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                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  Designers of the 30s did not do projects after completing the main order, but instead

                  Grabin described the system well in his book - the chief accountant of the plant helped him ...
              2. svp67 April 6 2020 19: 29 New
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                Quote: Octopus
                You have not heard anything about the work on an initiative basis?

                I heard, but they were paid from the fund of the enterprise, and even here everything had its own framework, at some point, I still had to ask permission and money from the ministry. But this is not about the Queen. At that moment, he generally abandoned the apparatus ordered to him for the construction and took up another machine.
                1. Octopus April 6 2020 20: 58 New
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                  Quote: svp67
                  At that moment, he generally abandoned the apparatus ordered to him for the construction and took up another machine.

                  You should check your version with the version of Aleksey RA. According to him, Korolev was engaged in the approved work, which was corrupted by the allied, and Korolev, allegedly, caused damage to the state, without abandoning it immediately.

                  One of the aspects of these KGB excuses is the attempt to personally otmazatsya from the case of the Queen, after all our everything. That is, the Queen was judged on economic matters, and his immediate superiors Kleimenov and Langemak were purely accidentally shot for the Trotskyite conspiracy, just coincidentally coincided in time.
                  1. svp67 April 7 2020 05: 06 New
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                    Quote: Octopus
                    That is, the Queen was judged on economic matters, and his immediate superiors Kleimenov and Langemak were purely accidentally shot for the Trotskyite conspiracy, just coincidentally coincided in time.

                    No, they were all judged by political articles in the spirit of the time. But the reason was precisely their "wrecking work."
                    Yes, and you are right in that you "swept" many then, it added weight to their "counterrevolutionary activity", allowing you to interpret it as a whole conspiracy led by Kleimenov and Langemak ... who remembered them proximity to Tukhachevsky
                    1. Octopus April 7 2020 09: 50 New
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                      Quote: svp67
                      But the reason was precisely their "wrecking work."

                      How interesting you have formulated.

                      You are right, the creation of jet guards mortars was pure wrecking. The USSR could neither do as it should nor afford such a weapon economically. Very poor on gunpowder and high-quality shells of the USSR, he spent resources for the production of both on fireworks. Despite the fact that 3 "artillery, for example, which was urgently needed, including as tank and anti-tank, fired with cast-iron grenades of Nikolaev times, equipped with almost shag.

                      Shot them on the armored targets.

                      You are not right, to the comrades-in-charge of the sabotage activities of NII 3 to the bulb. It is said - the Trotskyists, then the Trotskyists. And who else could be the people appointed to positions by the Trotskyist Tukhachevsky?
      3. Octopus April 6 2020 10: 51 New
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        Quote: Aleksandr72
        And on the other hand, you understand that if it were not for these "efforts" of the NKVD, then many of our designers of military equipment and weapons (and not only) would continue to fool around

        There is no way to understand this without a fellow operative officer.

        Quote: Aleksandr72
        scamming at each other

        What an interesting expression, "designers wrote denunciations." Where are the denunciations?
        Quote: Aleksandr72
        in a fight for funding and awards with orders, but it would have stood.

        Well this is necessary. Designers - grave-workers and loafers. As soon as comrade Ezhov was shot, that’s all, the Soviet military-industrial complex was killed. And when comrade Beria was shot, and there was nothing to remember.
        Quote: Aleksandr72
        It’s enough to recall Taubin, who promised a lot of things, but didn’t,

        And why does Taubin deal with the department of comrade Beria, and not comrade Vannikov, in which he works?
        Quote: Aleksandr72
        our promising fighters in that war were left without a 23-mm air gun

        Why the hell is she?
        Quote: Aleksandr72
        Tupolev, who finally took up his mind only in "sharashka"

        And before that, Tupolev, as we already know, fought for funding and awards with orders, but it was. And scammers, scammers scribbled, but more!
        Quote: Aleksandr72
        Naturally, one of them was very unlucky - they were shot

        Not rushing so not rushing. Ce la vie.
        Quote: Aleksandr72
        shot, not to say that it’s not entirely for the cause

        In the golden foundation of the ax.
        Quote: Aleksandr72
        Others, sitting in “sharaga”, gave out the equipment to the mountain, on which the Red Army defeated and eventually entered Berlin.

        Liberated Europe, yes.
        Quote: Aleksandr72
        Koshkin managed to organize the work of the OKB and, as they would say now, make a presentation of the tank before the command of the Red Army and the country's leadership.

        I read, it seems, from Svirin, another assessment of his work.

        Valenok, in the work did not understand a shisha. But his connections in Moscow, which covered KB from the interest of Comrade Comrade’s employees Beria, plus well-resolved everyday issues of subordinates. At that time - really a treasure, not a boss.
        1. Alexey RA April 6 2020 15: 12 New
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          Quote: Octopus
          What an interesting expression, "designers wrote denunciations." Where are the denunciations?

          They did not exchange small things - "to the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks (Comrade) Stalin and Comrade Voroshilov."
          Quote: Octopus
          And why does Taubin deal with the department of comrade Beria, and not comrade Vannikov, in which he works?

          But on this issue, the department, the department of Comrade Beria, already dealt with citizen Vannikov.
          And with Taubin, everything is simple - his business was transferred to the NKVD after he, with his actions (or rather, inaction), thwarted a plan for producing at least two types of serial aircraft.
          1. Octopus April 6 2020 15: 28 New
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            Quote: Alexey RA
            "to the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks to Comrade Stalin and Comrade Voroshilov"

            And so Stalin and Voroshilov how? They didn’t approve, I suppose?
            Quote: Alexey RA
            But on this issue, the department, the department of Comrade Beria, already dealt with citizen Vannikov.

            And why is it with a citizen, formerly Comrade Vannikov, who understands the department of Comrade. Beria? Hero of social labor with three times Hero of social labor?
      4. Lopatov April 6 2020 13: 01 New
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        Quote: Aleksandr72
        Suffice it to recall Taubin

        ... to understand that the NKVD did everything to weaken the USSR before the war.
        That's where the real enemies of the people sat ...
        The harm from their "activities" was simply gigantic.
        1. Alexey RA April 6 2020 15: 25 New
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          Quote: Spade
          ... to understand that the NKVD did everything to weaken the USSR before the war.

          Mmmm ... that is, the NKVD abandoned the work of finalizing the 23-mm guns to mass production? Or he promised a light 12,7 mm machine gun and a 37 mm avia gun, spent time and money - and didn’t give anything?
          According to Ilyushin’s planes, it’s known for sure - because of the failure to deliver M-6 guns and disruptions in the supply of ShVAK guns (which replaced the Taubin guns with IL-2 before entering a large series of VY guns), 146 vehicles got stuck in the plant with varying degrees of readiness. Exactly half of the number that was available on July 1, 1941.
          Further, about LaGG-3 - in total, the MP-6 guns were to receive cars from the 4th (partially) to the 13th factory series - this means 85 cars. Plus, the machines from the 1st to the 4th (partially) factory series (35 cars) received only machine guns due to the non-delivery of VY.
          (factory series should not be confused with industrial ones - that is, LaGG-3 of the 4th factory series is not LaGG-3 of the 4th series)
          For the retrofitting of these machines, they removed the underwing 12,7mm machine guns from the Mig-3
          In total, about a quarter of the available Lugg-3 did not have time to fly to the front in the summer and fall or were not mastered by the pilots due to a two-three-month delay in readiness
          © fvl_01

          And I still don’t remember the dream of reason and the technologist’s nightmare - Taubin’s automatic grenade launcher.
          So if he created the AGS. He created a 60 kg bulky box powered by a non-removable store for 5 shots :-)
          Which at the same time recharged only STANDING :-)
          Moreover, the calculation had 30 shots with itself (as one snail to the AGS which weighs less :-)
          © fvl_01
          1. Octopus April 6 2020 15: 37 New
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            Quote: Alexey RA
            Or he promised a light 12,7 mm machine gun and a 37 mm avia gun, spent time and money - and didn’t give anything?

            What's the problem? You discovered the truth that a huge part of the OCD does not even live to the stage of layout or what?
            1. Liam April 6 2020 15: 56 New
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              If Soviet cosmonautics and a nuclear missile shield would have blossomed if Comrade Brezhnev had shot everyone involved in the failure of the lunar program. And a colleague of the Republic of Armenia now would easily have proved with correct quotes how much people’s money had been wasted in vain on this business and even think about the aircraft carrier fleet and aviation scary how many admirals and aircraft designers could be shot with a clear conscience. And so in all areas of HX)
              1. Octopus April 6 2020 16: 02 New
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                Quote: Liam
                if only Comrade Brezhnev had shot everyone involved in the failure of the lunar program.

                In fact, the pest-repeaters Korolev and Glushko burned not a handful, as at that time, but a steamer of national money, promising the Soviet government ICBMs, and giving out R-7 instead. So they would not live to see the lunar program.

                Yangel then did the ICBM for them. His, however, is also in expense, for the Nedelinsky start.
                So the USSR would have remained without ICBMs at all.

                And this is good.
                Quote: Liam
                About the carrier fleet and aviation it’s even scary to think how many admirals and aircraft designers could be shot with a clear conscience.

                We have already discussed whom specifically comrade Yezhov and Beria were to be shot for the Big Fleet. So it really cost millions of lives.
            2. Alexey RA April 6 2020 16: 13 New
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              Quote: Octopus
              What's the problem? You discovered the truth that a huge part of the OCD does not even live to the stage of layout or what?

              The problem is that this OCD was not lowered from above. The same 12,7-mm machine gun was included in the design bureau’s work plan on the initiative of Taubin himself, who came with him to Malenkov and the IVS and promised to make the machine gun twice as light and twice as fast.
              That is, the KB lead-voucher vouched before the management for the success of the OCD.
              1. Octopus April 6 2020 16: 21 New
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                Quote: Alexey RA
                The same 12,7 mm machine gun was included in the design bureau

                That is, it was included in the KB work plan. What is the problem?
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Lapovodnik KB vouched before the leadership for the success of the OCD.

                And who is responsible for technical policy for this guide? Maybe in vain comrade Does Stalin personally deal with all this?
                1. Alexey RA April 6 2020 18: 47 New
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                  Quote: Octopus
                  That is, it was included in the KB work plan. What is the problem?

                  The problem is that this was not a GAU order, but Taubin’s own initiative. Which pierced it to the level of the Decree of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR and the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks.
                  Well look, man, no one pulled your tongue ... ©
                  And as a result, instead of a light belt-fed machine gun, Taubin issued a miracle-udo with store-fed meals and survivability of 150-200 shots. He began to remake it under the tape, began to make significant changes to the design documentation already at the production stage, and he broke all the deadlines. Some kind of deja vu, isn't it? wink
                  Quote: Octopus
                  And who is responsible for technical policy for this guide?

                  The most interesting thing is that the strings stretch to citizen Vannikov. Which not only shoved the AP-12,7 into production, but also requested 1,7 million rubles for the refinement of 18 machine guns before testing.

                  Three times, Taubin promised top management that he would certainly do better than others. And failed three times what he personally guaranteed.
                  1. Octopus April 6 2020 21: 05 New
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                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    The problem is that this was not a GAU order, but Taubin’s own initiative.

                    AND? Work is included in the order. Do you have to execute tasks GAU execution? In the USSR of the 41st year, seriously?
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    The most interesting thing is that the strings stretch to citizen Vannikov.

                    Even Vannikov was not shot in vain. They gave the atomic project to the enemy of the people. And Nudelman at the same time.
                    1. Alexey RA April 7 2020 11: 02 New
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                      Quote: Octopus
                      AND? Work is included in the order. Do you have to execute tasks GAU execution? In the USSR of the 41st year, seriously?

                      Report fraud. This is not so-so.
                      Soviet designers often banged strange wunderwafles - yes, yes. But on a fake test results came across one. Feel the difference. Taubin suffered not because he “didn’t”, but because he reported that they said “done, everything is ready.”
                      © fvl_01
                      1. Octopus April 7 2020 11: 56 New
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                        The features of those years when decisions on important technological issues were sometimes developed by the incompetent authorities, and only on the basis of certain promises, contributed to the fact that some gun designers, out of a desire to "move forward," took the path that damaged the business and was dangerous for themselves. It happened with the designer Taubin, who was developing one of the designs of the 23-mm aircraft gun. [...] This gun was the best [...] if Taubin did not want to prematurely “show off” not only his achievements, but also those that he did not have. He did just that, declaring the underestimated weight, dimensions and recoil force of the gun and thereby achieving the highlight of his project. [...] The shortcomings themselves were eliminated hastily. At the same time, Taubin was guided mainly by the so-called “design intuition”, did not study or analyze the reasons for his failure, and his attempts to fulfill the promise were unsuccessful.


                        Who is to blame for people like Taubin becoming “indigenous” in the country's aviation weapons? (And who writes these memoirs)))

                        Why was Taubin arrested and executed? After all, all his products were at the level of the best world designs. In some ways they were inferior, and in some ways they exceeded their competitors. Designer A.E. Nudelman lived in the same staircase with me, and we talked several times about the history of OKB-16. Alexander Emanuilovich well remembered the events of the 1930s – 1940s and eagerly talked about them. Regarding the arrest of Taubin, he said briefly that this was the work of Shpitalny and Co., and he abruptly changed the subject.

                        Maybe he’s right - they didn’t stand on ceremony with their competitors. But if the denunciation from OKB-15 had decided the matter, then surely the closure of the entire OKB-16 would have followed. However, this did not happen. Together with Taubin from OKB-16, only M.N. Baburin was arrested. The new head of OBK-16 was appointed Nudelman. Therefore, the version that the denunciation was written by one of his own people to whom Taubin’s departure was beneficial seems to be much more justified. We will be able to put all the dots over “i” when Taubin’s case is declassified.


                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        But on a fake test results came across one. Feel the difference.

                        Russian folk genre "for which it would have to shoot".

                        Taubin was shot administratively. The charge is 58th. Including 58-8
                        The commission of terrorist acts directed against representatives of the Soviet government or leaders of revolutionary workers and peasant organizations, and participation in the implementation of such acts, even by persons not belonging to the counter-revolutionary organization


                        He was innocent.

                        All.
                2. Alexey RA April 6 2020 20: 13 New
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                  Taubin suffered not because he “didn’t”, but because he reported that they said “done, everything is ready.” ©
          2. Lopatov April 6 2020 16: 31 New
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            Quote: Alexey RA
            that is, this NKVD abandoned the work of finalizing the 23-mm guns to mass production?

            It did everything so that these works were not resumed.
            By shooting Taubin.
            Without trial, already during the ongoing war.



            Quote: Alexey RA
            He created a 60 kg bulkhead

            Actually, 46 kg.
            And "Maxim" on the Sokolov machine without ammunition, but with water weighed 67.6 kg
            And most actively applied. So it goes...
            1. Alexey RA April 6 2020 19: 43 New
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              Quote: Spade
              It did everything so that these works were not resumed.

              What kind of work? Taubin did not do anything to fine-tune the MP-6 in the time allotted to him. After six months of refinement during testing, the serial MP-6 gun worked worse than the experimental VY.
              None of the guns released by TWO factories passed the acceptance. Zero pieces. Either 12 units were installed on planes, or 18 with negative results. And this was in March 1941. Which actually caused the famous "denunciation" of Taubin and pulled the whole chain.

              Taubin kept repeating the same thing over and over: he made an extremely lightweight concept for store food, then during the production of an experimental batch he began to remake it for ribbon food, arranged a mess with CD, tape versions predictably refused to work, Taubin lost interest in them - and embarked on a new adventure.
              The first design sample usually looks like candy ... This is a masterpiece of lightness, grace, in some ways even simplicity. It steeply creeps out on one bright parameter from the TTZ - you wanted a 23 mm gun weighing about 53-55 kg. Great - here ... we made it - it weighs 40 kg. While everyone, stunned by happiness, picks up the fallen jaws - quickly added, well, separately 9 ku weighs the "continuous projectile delivery system", but these are trifles. Where did the filing come from? From the clip. True, there are still a lot of delays and the rate of fire is half that of the TTZ, but it’s so light, how compact (if you don’t look at the weapons store). Well, we’ll finish everything now, etc. not a cannon but a sweetie. Everything will be all. By the way, we designed different shops for her - for all occasions. Then the circus begins. Weapons with bewitching characteristics a priori become a favorite, the main thing is to bring it. And here the refinement of the initial simple and elegant design turns into building on it nodes, parts and details. How to make MP-3 at 300 per minute from MP-6 with a rate of 600 rpm. Two additional and very complex units were added to the existing weapon design, two types of clips were made, three types of stores were created - and for different clips. A different type of sleeve has been created. All this is complemented by extreme administrative negligence being the corporate identity of the design bureau. As an example: Ilyushin is sent to test 2 23mm guns for installation on the IL-2. Having already arrived at the design bureau and mounted on an airplane, it suddenly turns out that the right and left guns are fed with different types of ammunition (different cartridges) and these cartridges are equipped with different cartridges - not interchangeable. The answer to Ilyushin’s roar - how can this be - follows, and what’s wrong here - now we’ll improve everything, but for now, here’s another shell for your other cannon and clips ... So try it now. And to the pubs ... - THIRD generation shells and clips arriving at the design bureau are not suitable for either of the two guns that have already been delivered.
              © fvl_01
              Quote: Spade
              And "Maxim" on the Sokolov machine without ammunition, but with water weighed 67.6 kg
              And most actively applied. So it goes...

              But what, Maxim was eating from a non-removable store with a capacity like that of a DP? wink Let me remind you that the Taubin grenade launcher had a 30 round of ammunition. And a five grenade store.
              Just all at the words "automatic grenade launcher" immediately represent the AGS-17. And not real AG-TB.
            2. Alexey RA April 6 2020 19: 54 New
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              Quote: Spade
              It did everything so that these works were not resumed.
              By shooting Taubin.

              Oh yes, the MP-6 Taubina was brought to mind by Nudelman.
              But in order for it to work with power from the tape, Nudelman had to construct a new tape receiver and change the shot to 23x115. For with the original 23x152 the gun worked poorly, but not for long.
        2. vladcub April 6 2020 15: 45 New
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          Here the fun begins: how did they become real pests? How did it happen that Yagoda ,, Zakovsky, Frinovsky, Agranov, they all started under Dzerzhinsky and seemed to be decent, but did so much. In fact, because of them, now the NKVD is a synonym for terror
          1. Octopus April 6 2020 15: 55 New
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            Quote: vladcub
            they all started under Dzerzhinsky and were seemingly decent

            Strongly.
        3. Vladimir_2U April 6 2020 16: 10 New
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          Quote: Spade
          to understand that the NKVD did everything to weaken the USSR before the war.
          Yes, in spite of the system, the NKVD won, in spite of the system, because such a kingdom was in the USSR, it only harmed. The fact that the border guards are the NKVD, that SMERSH is the NKVD is not counted, they harmed the NKVD and that’s it.
          1. Octopus April 6 2020 16: 12 New
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            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            The fact that the border guards are the NKVD, that SMERSH is the NKVD is not counted, they harmed the NKVD and that’s it.

            And what is wrong?
            1. Vladimir_2U April 6 2020 16: 15 New
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              Quote: Octopus
              And what is wrong?
              Have you read this?
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              Quote: Spade
              to understand that the NKVD did everything to weaken the USSR before the war.
              Yes, in spite of the system, the NKVD won, in spite of the system, because such a kingdom was in the USSR, it only harmed. The fact that the border guards are the NKVD, that SMERSH is the NKVD is not counted, they harmed the NKVD and that’s it.
              1. Octopus April 6 2020 16: 27 New
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                Yes, I read it.
                You pretend that you do not understand that the claims against the NKVD are not about the border guards (although there is also something to talk about, who is the border guard and who is VOHR). And SMERSH is basically Abakumov, the People’s Commissar of Defense. A unique person, by the way, was arrested by Stalin, and Malenkov was shot.
                1. Vladimir_2U April 6 2020 17: 21 New
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                  Quote: Octopus
                  You pretend that you do not understand that the claims to the NKVD
                  What nonsense! I fully understand the claims to the poor-quality work of a part of the NKVD, I do not understand the unreasonable, but simply wild scale of these claims to the entire NKVD.
                  Quote: Spade
                  ... to understand that the NKVD did everything to weaken the USSR before the war.
                  Wow application, the NKVD was in charge of hundreds of thousands of armed people with considerable authority, millions of convicts, you can ruin a country without any war, but you pretend that you do not understand this.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  And SMERSH is basically Abakumov, the People’s Commissar of Defense. A unique person, by the way, was arrested by Stalin, and Malenkov was shot.
                  Well, since you consider it unique, you probably know a lot about it, but you just missed a real trifle:
                  Since January 1932, he worked in the organs of the OGPU — NKVD as a trainee in the economic department ... ... NKVD, NKVD, NKVD ... ... on February 25, 1941 he was appointed deputy People's Commissar of Internal Affairs of the USSR, and on July 19, 1941 at the same time and the head of the Department of special departments of the NKVD of the USSR (3rd Directorate of the GUGB of the NKVD of the USSR), which in July 1943 was transformed into SMERSH. On April 19, 1943 he was appointed to the post of head of the Main Directorate of Counterintelligence SMERSH and Deputy People's Commissar of Defense.
                  That's bad luck, until 1943 there is no NGO, and after 1943 SMERSH it is not an NGO! How, without knowing such things, to judge that time ?!
                  1. Octopus April 6 2020 17: 32 New
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                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    On April 19, 1943, he was appointed head of the Main Directorate of Counterintelligence SMERSH

                    So by this very order SMERSH was created. Why are you boiling?
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    unreasonable, but simply wild scale of these claims to the entire NKVD.

                    Well done. If you do not want to recall the modern NKVD organizations, then there is the Russian Guard, recently discussed. Let 2/3 guard ZATO - nobody cares. What they do under cameras is interesting, even if it’s 1% of the staff.
                    1. Vladimir_2U April 7 2020 12: 47 New
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                      Quote: Octopus
                      And SMERSH is basically Abakumov, the People’s Commissar of Defense.

                      Quote: Octopus
                      On April 19, 1943, he was appointed head of the Main Directorate of Counterintelligence SMERSH
                      So by this very order SMERSH was created. Why are you boiling?
                      You masterfully refused your stupid argument, because SMERSH was created on the basis of one of the NKVD departments, you retorted with the words "by that order." Strong.

                      Quote: Octopus
                      Well done. If you do not want to recall the modern NKVD organizations, then there is the Russian Guard, recently discussed. Let 2/3 guard ZATO - nobody cares. What they do under cameras is interesting, even if it’s 1% of the staff.
                      What do you mean by that? What claim, all of a sudden, to just 1% of the NKVD? Then why the protection of this nonsense ?:
                      Quote: Spade
                      ... to understand that the NKVD did everything to weaken the USSR before the war. This is where the real enemies of the people sat ...
                      1. Octopus April 7 2020 13: 24 New
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                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        SMERSH on the basis of one of the departments of the NKVD created

                        SMERSH - a specific organization created by a specific document.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        What claim, all of a sudden, to just 1% of the NKVD?

                        That people should not be shot only on the basis of a record of service in the NKVD in the military book. The personal guilt of a person in certain crimes should be established.

                        A similar concept was proposed for the SS in Nuremberg.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        The NKVD did everything to weaken the USSR before the war. This is where the real enemies of the people sat

                        User Lopatov somewhat simplifies. The NKVD was an organic element of the Stalinist version of Soviet power. Auxiliary element.
      5. Sahalinets April 6 2020 16: 45 New
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        Do you seriously think that the atmosphere of fear and denunciation created by the NKVD contributed to good work? What works best in prison? And how then did our defense industry function after the war?
        But Hitler did not know! He would put Porsche in a concentration camp and he betrayed there was a Super Tiger! And Willy there, let him master the supersonic. And what would Mitchell do in jail ...
        1. Vladimir_2U April 6 2020 18: 00 New
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          Even if you believe in this Russophobic stamp, which the current haters of Russia, including abroad, willingly use, about the "atmosphere of fear and denunciation," do you seriously think that uncontrolled activities and unpunished misses and acts of sabotage contribute to good work? Do you seriously consider all engineers and scientists to be angels? For a moment, the general designer of design bureaus, this is actually the director of a rather big office, couldn’t he stupidly steal? What did the designer have in his head could not be blessed with "universal values," especially Zionist and Anglophilic, at that time?
          Quote: Sahalinets
          He would put Porsche in a concentration camp and he betrayed there was a Super Tiger!
          Yes gave your Porsche Super Tigers, without any prison. (hand face). For Hitler it was better to leave Porsche on "typewriters for the people."
          Quote: Sahalinets
          And Willy there, let him master the supersonic.
          And how, mastered?
          Quote: Sahalinets
          And what would Mitchell do in jail ...
          He would have stolen, then he sat, and hardly in a sharaga. By the way, about sharagi, than Los Alamos is not a sharaga? Only with American scope and resources, and without convicts.
          1. Octopus April 6 2020 18: 44 New
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            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            why is Los Alamos not a sharaga? Only with American scope and resources, and without convicts.

            )))
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            And how, mastered?

            Yes

            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            For Hitler it was better to leave Porsche on "typewriters for the people."

            You are absolutely right. The tank industry is not a place for records, especially weight records.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            then do you seriously think that uncontrolled activities and unpunished mistakes and acts of sabotage contribute to good work?

            Yes.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Do you seriously consider all engineers and scientists to be angels?

            Yes. At least in comparison with the detectives Bykov and Shestakov.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            couldn’t he stupidly steal?

            Of course not. What should he do with the 30s stolen in the USSR? Have you read the Golden Calf?
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            could not have been in your head imparted with “universal values”, especially Zionist and Anglophile, at that time?

            What's the problem? A third of the Manhattan project is contaminated with Zionist values, a third are Anglophile, the rest are Germans, and half of all third are communists. Nothing, they worked for a peace with sin in half.
            1. Vladimir_2U April 7 2020 04: 12 New
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              Quote: Octopus
              why is Los Alamos not a sharaga? Only with American scope and resources, and without convicts.
              )))
              Yeah, the most ridiculous, if you do not know about the very strict restrictions on movement and correspondence, for US-sharazhnikov. And a very sickly spade of a very sickly security service of all this.
              Quote: Octopus
              And how, mastered?
              Yes
              I do not have to take the nameless photo apart, but what relation does the plane, the earliest, of the late 50s, and most likely French, have to do with Willy, not sure, but probably Messerschmidt, mid-40s?
              Quote: Octopus
              Do you seriously consider all engineers and scientists to be angels?
              Yes. At least in comparison with the detectives Bykov and Shestakov.
              Everything is relative, everything! And the blue thief Alchen ("12 chairs"), in comparison with Chikatilo, is not even an angel, in general something unimaginably bright, but it would obviously be nice to sit there.
              Quote: Octopus
              couldn’t he stupidly steal?
              Of course not. What should he do with the 30s stolen in the USSR? Have you read the Golden Calf?
              Yes, at least, that would be stupid to sit on money, like an antagonist (probable) in a book. You can certainly recall Colonel Zakharchenko, with his “Gazelles” of money, but I recall the con man Pavlenko, who was shot, according to a political article, by the way, and who began his “career” in the thirties.
              Quote: Octopus
              What's the problem? A third of the Manhattan project is contaminated with Zionist values, a third are Anglophile, the rest are Germans, and half of all third are communists. Nothing, they worked for a peace with sin in half.
              Haha, about Zionism and Anglophilism is not bad, especially in light of the current parasitism of Israel in the United States, and British obscurity. But it’s more difficult with the Communists, but I remember that not everyone finished the honorable pension. And by the way, according to Solzh, there were enough people on the servicing of the Soviet A-project, and you also know, they finished in the shortest possible time. And it was by working for the cause of peace.
              1. Octopus April 7 2020 10: 57 New
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                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                if you don’t know about very strict restrictions on movement and correspondence,

                It is always fun to see how the Stalinists suddenly become extreme liberals. Los Alamos - Sharashka, freedom to Oppenheimer.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                And a very sickly spade of a very sickly security service of all this.

                There was treason from top to bottom. The demonic image of J.E. Hoover is greatly exaggerated by himself.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                but what relation does the plane, the earliest, of the late 50s, and most likely French, have to do with Willy, not sure, but probably Messerschmidt, mid-40s?

                By the mid-40s, no, but to Willy has. Vika to the rescue. Or should you give supersonic sound in the 43rd?
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                compared to Chikatilo, not even an angel, in general something unimaginably bright, but it would obviously be nice to sit for him.

                Compared with the figures of those years, Andrei Romanovich is just a cute naughty man. And who is Alhen, who is stealing food from old women? Tupolev? Ginsburg? Landau? Vavilov?
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Yes, at least, that would be stupid to sit on money, like an antagonist (probable) in a book.

                General designer robbing KB to become an underground millionaire? And all the leading experts with him? What are your interesting ideas about people. Are you related to organs, do I understand correctly?
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                sidelts at the service of the Soviet A-project

                Yes, the heavenly USSR, which dreamers so often recall, like Samsonov, is just when great people sit behind bars and make atomic bombs there. Kim’s comrades realized something like this.

                But the point was that for some reason, the most diverse views and nationalities did not interfere with AB. Or do you want to say that the Soviet people, the best of them, hated their country and refused to strengthen its defense?
                1. Vladimir_2U April 7 2020 12: 39 New
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                  Quote: Octopus
                  It is always fun to see how the Stalinists suddenly become extreme liberals. Los Alamos - Sharashka, freedom to Oppenheimer.
                  Pff, that is, there are no objections to the sharaga? It’s so normal for me to restrict privacy in order to ensure secrecy. And the Americans applied this restriction. And it is possible that without it, efficiency would have fallen.

                  Quote: Sahalinets
                  But Hitler did not know! He would put Porsche in a concentration camp and he betrayed there was a Super Tiger! And Willy there, let him master the supersonic.

                  Quote: Octopus
                  By the mid-40s, no, but to Willy has. Vika to the rescue. Or should you give supersonic sound in the 43rd?
                  An excellent argument, just a charm, well, so what are the claims to the Soviet designers that they sat in sharaby, all the same, directly, in 43, they did not master supersonic? Not only that, I also have to look for a “muddy” picture, strongly. The idiocy of a claim (even if not yours, but you got into it) by supersonic under Hitler is not a reason to send it to Vicki, especially since I am not defending this idiocy.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Compared with the figures of those years, Andrei Romanovich is just a cute naughty man. And who is Alhen, who is stealing food from old women? Tupolev? Ginsburg? Landau? Vavilov?
                  In your opinion, only a stealing from old women is worthy of punishment by law? Between us, the Criminal Code, the current one, provides much more cases for prosecution, and even article 58, then, was quite applicable for fraudsters and thieves and even slobs.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  General designer robbing KB to become an underground millionaire?
                  The conditional general designer has such an opportunity, and if he takes advantage of it, he is a criminal, no matter what genius of construction he may be. What is not clear here?
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Are you related to organs, do I understand correctly?
                  So write, as if this is something bad, do not be afraid, even if you fall into my bloody knee-deep hands, there will be no bottle of champagne for you, ahaha! Genius findings, dig threshing ...
                  Quote: Octopus
                  this is just when great people sit behind bars and make atomic bombs there. Kim’s comrades realized something like this.
                  Well these are your words, and Solzh, I’m aware that Kurchatov and his comrades did not sit at all, but I’m not proud, but I’ll remind you:
                  Quote: Sahalinets
                  Do you seriously think that the atmosphere of fear and denunciation created by the NKVD contributed to good work? What works best in prison? And how then did our defense industry function after the war?
                  Actually, there was a claim that in sharaga, and this, even in the USSR, was not quite a prison, it was impossible to achieve anything worthwhile. So either no one was sitting, or everyone was sitting, but the result is at least no worse.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  But the point was that for some reason, the most diverse views and nationalities did not interfere with AB
                  It’s you who are now embracing views and nationalities, for the arguments are zero, and I wrote about Zionism and Anglophilism as a hostile USSR, and modern Russia, “garbage” in my head, and this garbage could push and pushed on stupidity and even dirty tricks, transferring information and say nothing.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Or do you want to say that the Soviet people, the best of them, hated their country and refused to strengthen its defense?
                  I don’t need to ascribe this stupidity to me, huh? No, unless of course Solzh is considered the best of the Soviet people, then the picture is generally gloomy, for he called on the Americans to atomically bomb their own country and people. But Kurchatov, Beria and many thousands of Soviet people did everything so that Solzh's dreams did not come true, and you probably regret it.
                  1. Octopus April 7 2020 13: 18 New
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                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    that is, there are no objections to the sharaga?

                    Explain to you the differences z / to from a free person? What for? You are unlikely to understand them.
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    And it is possible that without it, efficiency would have fallen.

                    Ruled out. AB was stolen by the enemies of the United States almost online. Moreover, these were the very Soviet intelligence officers who, a couple of years before, had drawn the four 100mm armor and could not establish the staff of the German division.
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    Well, so what are the claims to Soviet designers that they sat in sharaby, all the same, just in 43, they did not master the supersonic sound?

                    You seem to be talking to yourself. I did not make any complaints against the Soviet aircraft designer. I just clarified that Willy mastered supersonic while at large. When the time has come.
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    In your opinion, only a stealing from old women is worthy of punishment by law?

                    Well, you dragged Alkhen, no?
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    even the 58th article, then, was fully applied to scammers and thieves and even slobs.

                    58-1. Any action aimed at overthrowing, undermining or weakening the power of the workers 'and peasants' councils and the ones elected by them, on the basis of the Constitution of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the constitutions of the Union republics, workers 'and peasants' governments of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, union and autonomous republics, or to undermine or weaken the external security of the Union, is recognized as counter-revolutionary. SSR and the main economic, political and national gains of the proletarian revolution.

                    People who applied this wording to scammers, thieves and even slobs - criminals. Every single one. And moral imperfection scammers, thieves and even slobs in this state of affairs does not change absolutely nothing.
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    and if he takes advantage of it, then he is a criminal, no matter what genius of construction he may be. What is not clear here?

                    First of all, you won’t believe that most successful people tend to engage in their core business, rather than steal the little things (by the way about this. What does it mean to “steal”? Did he sell rockets in the market, or what?). Secondly, if the only specialist in metal planes in the country wants an American refrigerator, give him a refrigerator. What is the problem? What is the topic for discussion, should Tupolev have a refrigerator in the country or not?
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    So write as if it’s something bad, don’t be afraid,

                    It is somehow strange to be afraid of username, but the attitude towards people as to d is very characteristic. Therefore, citizens with a similar background per kilometer should not be allowed to power.
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    I’m aware that Kurchatov and his comrades did not sit at all

                    How to say. Landau and Kapitsa had some problems in this regard.
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    that in sharaga, and even in the USSR it was not a prison at all, it is impossible to achieve anything worthwhile. So either no one was sitting, or everyone was sitting, but the result is at least no worse.

                    The result is much worse, as it is easy to notice to anyone who is familiar with the history of the USSR. But yes, weapons can also be used for hunting. Unlike anything else.
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    and I wrote about Zionism and Anglophilism as a hostile USSR, and even modern Russia, “garbage” in my head

                    You wrote that people, whether Zionist or pro-British, can’t work for the defense of the USSR in the war with the Reich, except in prison. This is really rubbish, but exclusively in your head.
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    But Kurchatov, Beria and many thousands of Soviet people did everything so that Solzh's dreams did not come true, and you probably regret it.

                    Solzhenitsin’s views are not close to me, but yes, I have many complaints about a wide variety of people.
                    1. Vladimir_2U April 7 2020 14: 02 New
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                      Quote: Octopus
                      Explain to you the differences z / to from a free person? What for? You are unlikely to understand them.
                      That there, that there were restrictions on freedom, just of varying degrees, but you are unlikely to understand this.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      You seem to be talking to yourself. I did not make any complaints against the Soviet aircraft designer. I just clarified that Willy mastered supersonic while at large
                      And Tupolev mastered supersonic when the time came, and it didn’t hurt him to sit for a while. I just remind you that you defended this idiocy:
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Quote: Sahalinets
                      But Hitler did not know! He would put Porsche in a concentration camp and he betrayed there was a Super Tiger! And Willy there, let him master the supersonic.


                      Quote: Octopus
                      Well, you dragged Alkhen, no?
                      Well, you dragged the Golden Calf
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Secondly, if the only specialist in metal planes in the country wants an American refrigerator, give him a refrigerator.
                      Do you seriously think that Tupolev was the only one and sat down at the refrigerator ?! This is the meaning before you crucify! The fact that until the very last he fought for the corrugation, to the detriment of, among other things, defense capabilities, that he bought licenses through his ass in the States, to the detriment of, among other things, the country's finances, but what I mean ...
                      Quote: Octopus
                      People who apply this wording to scammers, thieves and even slobs are criminals. Every single one. And the moral imperfection of fraudsters, thieves and even slobs in this state of affairs does not change absolutely anything.
                      Oh, what big words, how much pathos, but is it appropriate? And here it is, decrease the degree:
                      58-6. Espionage i.e. transfer, abduction or collection for the purpose of transferring information, which in their content are specially protected state secrets, to foreign states, counter-revolutionary organizations or private individuals, ...
                      58-7. Undermining state industry, transport, trade, monetary circulation or credit system, as well as cooperation committed for counter-revolutionary purposes through the appropriate use of state institutions and enterprises, or opposing their normal activities, as well as the use of state institutions and enterprises or opposing their activities, done for former owners or interested capitalist organizationsentail ...
                      58-12. Failure to report a reliably known, impending or committed counter-revolutionary crime: from 6 months in prison.
                      58-14. Counterrevolutionary sabotage, those. deliberate failure by someone to fulfill certain duties or deliberately careless execution with the special purpose of weakening the power of the government and the activities of the state apparatus, entails ..
                      You can of course chew on the meaning and applicability of these articles to scammers, thieves and slobs, but "sapienti sat ..." ... But you just need to poke into the fact that you did not notice these paragraphs of the article so nicely.

                      Quote: Octopus
                      It is somehow strange to be afraid of username, but the attitude towards people as to d is very characteristic. Therefore, citizens with a similar background per kilometer should not be allowed to power.
                      He came up with it, he was scared himself! This is about you, if it is not clear. because:
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Genius findings, dig threshing ...
                      Quotes to tear you are not particularly shy. By the way, your like-minded person, whose idiocy you defended, would treat me harder, I won’t be surprised that right now:
                      Quote: Sahalinets
                      And let's plant you specifically? You will finally begin to work as it should ... What, do not want to?
                      This generally pulls direct bullying. Your like-minded person.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      How to say. Landau and Kapitsa had some problems in this regard.
                      They had problems with the law, and they were not the creators of the Soviet A-bomb.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      You wrote that people, whether Zionist, whether pro-British, cannot work for the defense of the USSR in the war with the Reich, except in prison
                      You brazenly breshet! I did not write this YOUR nonsense. I wrote that these people could merge and merge different data, that they could dirty and often dirty, that's what I wrote, and directly. And they had to work, often against their will.
                      1. Octopus April 7 2020 14: 32 New
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                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        What is there, what were the restrictions on freedom

                        Indeed, Magadan, a powdered paradise, in the case of the Queen, and Los Alamos differ only in climate. And the circumstances of getting people there do not play a role.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        it didn’t hurt him to sit for a while.

                        Another phrase in the golden foundation of the ax.

                        I completely agree with you. Any person who was related in the USSR, especially to his development, would do well to sit. Better lie down. Therefore, I really love the NKVD, although I often write nasty things about them. This is loving.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        dragged the Golden Calf

                        This work quite adequately shows the difference between consumer society and the mobilization economy of the USSR of the 30s.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Do you seriously think that Tupolev was the only one and sat down at the refrigerator ?!

                        No, what are you. There, all the design bureaus moved to the department of Comrade. Beria. But this is right, I will not argue.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        And it’s enough to poke you into the fact that you didn’t notice these paragraphs of the article so nicely.

                        The first paragraph of the article just explains the content of the offense. Everything else is a clause written by a sick imagination of the legislator.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Undermining ... money circulation or the credit system,

                        Neither you nor the legislator understand what is written here.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        By the way, your like-minded person, whose idiocy you defended, would have treated me harder

                        Firstly, I am quite able to express my thoughts on my own. You should not attribute to me strangers.
                        Second, the
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        would treat me harder

                        I’m somehow not sure that you understand my position and his well.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        I did not write this YOUR nonsense. I wrote that these people could merge and merge different data, that they could dirty and often dirty, that's what I wrote, and directly. And they had to work, often against their will.

                        In fact, this is exactly what you are writing, and this is not the first time. That all these people - Tupolev, Petlyakov, Korolev with Glushko, and many others, were ready to give at least Hitler to the USSR to harm the Soviet regime. You rarely see such people in the White movement.
                      2. Vladimir_2U April 8 2020 11: 51 New
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                        Quote: Octopus
                        Indeed, Magadan, a powdered paradise, in the case of the Queen
                        There were no scumbags on Magadan, Korolev practically didn’t work on rocket subjects, was released in 44, was promoted to colonel. However, during the review of the case, he was not released, as many convicted of false accusations and accusations, received a sentence of 46 g. When the peak of repression was generally passed and was accused of creating inapplicable weapons. For a state account, he developed a homing missile, without at least some malomalsky working GOS. In fact, he is sorry, but formally he is guilty. And his then developments in the war gave nothing to the country.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        it didn’t hurt him to sit for a while.
                        Another phrase in the golden foundation of the ax.
                        I completely agree with you. Any person who was related in the USSR, especially to his development, would do well to sit,.
                        You already began to tear up phrases, completely distorting the meaning,
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        And Tupolev mastered supersonic when the time came, and it didn’t hurt him to sit for a while.
                        but nobody reads us already, and you can’t deceive me and don’t dust your brains with a cheap trick.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        dragged the Golden Calf
                        This work quite adequately shows the difference between consumer society and the mobilization economy of the USSR of the 30s.
                        What a news! The book shows, in a comic form, the impossibility of spending money obtained by criminal means any other, near-criminal ... but you saw a mobilization economy! Where is the "face-to-face" emoticon, how it is missing!
                      3. Vladimir_2U April 8 2020 14: 20 New
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                        Quote: Octopus
                        Do you seriously think that Tupolev was the only one and sat down at the refrigerator ?!
                        No, what are you. There, all the design bureaus moved to the department of Comrade. Beria. But this is right, I will not argue.
                        And again the phrase is torn out, and your own, fu do it. This is after all about the only specialist, and not the only one crouched, so, it seems, no?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Secondly, if the only specialist in metal planes in the country wants an American refrigerator, give him a refrigerator.
                        Do you seriously think that Tupolev was the only one and sat down at the refrigerator?

                        Quote: Octopus
                        There, all the design bureaus moved to the department of Comrade. Beria. But this is right, I will not argue.
                        Well, why this stupidity? Not all, but only those whom the “hero of the day” himself))) remembered !:
                        Wouldn’t it turn out that, according to my list, they will still put God knows how many people? Upon reflection, I decided to rewrite all those I know, but I knew all. It cannot be that the entire aircraft industry is transplanted? This position seemed reasonable to me, and I wrote a list of 200 people. And what do you think, it turned out that, with rare exceptions, they are all behind bars! ”
                        Although about the entire aviation industry, of course Tupolev froze.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        The first paragraph of the article just explains the content of the offense. Everything else is a clause written by a sick imagination of the legislator.
                        Judging by the clever word that you coined - you are a “clause”, you are an international lawyer, but even I’m not a lawyer at all, it is clear that the first paragraph of article 58 is actually a preamble.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        58-1. Any action aimed at overthrowing, undermining or weakening the power of the workers 'and peasants' councils and those elected by them, on the basis of the Constitution of the USSR, is recognized as counter-revolutionary.
                        The word is clever but the one who considers these points and many others:
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Espionage i.e. transfer, abduction or collection for the purpose of transferring information

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Failure to report a reliably known, impending or committed counter-revolutionary crime

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Counter-revolutionary sabotage, i.e. deliberate non-performance by someone of certain duties or intentionally careless performance of them for a special purpose
                        clauses written by the sick imagination of the legislator Is it completely healthy? For me it’s not so, either depicts itself as such.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Undermining ... money circulation or the credit system,
                        Neither you nor the legislator understand what is written here.
                        Well, of course, where are we, me and the legislator, from before your flight of thought. And also we are far from the imagination of Chechens, with their fake memos, far, like the moon, to the pyramids a la Khoper, to the permission for the industrial cashless payment of “payments” to the “cooperators” to redeem real values, and for the artificial bankruptcy of strategic enterprises and their subsequent destruction of interested parties together with families to the wall you need to put!
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        or opposition to their normal activities, as well as the use of state institutions and enterprises or opposition to their activities, ... ... or interested capitalist organizations, entail
                        Yes, the real seer wrote this paragraph! You, with your judgment to him as a cockroach to a walking excavator, excuse me

                        Quote: Octopus
                        By the way, your like-minded person, whose idiocy you defended, would have treated me harder
                        Firstly, I am quite able to express my thoughts on my own. You should not attribute to me strangers.
                        You uphold with this
                        Quote: Sahalinets
                        And let's plant you specifically?
                        one position, you defended his stupidity with supersonic,
                        Quote: Octopus
                        I’m somehow not sure that you understand my position and his well.
                        Finally, this, and you are not like-minded? To your credit, you didn’t scare me with landings, it’s like that. But your like-minded person is easy, and on the most serious cabbage soup.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        That all these people - Tupolev, Petlyakov, Korolev with Glushko, and many others, were ready to give at least Hitler to the USSR to harm the Soviet regime.
                        And you, time after time, repeat this lie. I wrote about Anglophiles and Zionists, and you drag people accused, rightly or not, of embezzlement and sabotage. Whether by stupidity or by their self-confidence, but formally they are criminals.
                        In general, you and your like-minded people who were convicted under 58 and similar articles, seem to consider the angels innocent, but this is utter nonsense. In your opinion, it turns out that all scientists or engineers, in principle, could not commit crimes, but even now, scientists and engineers are caught and imprisoned for espionage. And does it matter, they are hiding behind the ecology, or something else. And the story of the "Proton" sensor, hammered backwards, is that what you think? Children's cry on the lawn?
                        Quote: Octopus
                        I’m somehow not sure that you understand my position and his well.

                        Quote: Octopus
                        Solzhenitsin’s views are not close to me, but yes, I have many complaints about a wide variety of people.
                        Sorry, but that he poured mud on the USSR, that you adhere to the same position, and this is the position of the enemies of the USSR, it is no longer, no matter how sorry, this is the position of the enemies of today's Russia.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        The result is much worse, as it is easy to notice to anyone who is familiar with the history of the USSR. But yes, weapons can also be used for hunting.
                        Significantly worse than what result? ZK was used to a limited extent, where far from the liberties could be lured, far from the entire engineering community was sitting in sharagi, as you are promoting here, even if you recall some of the presenters.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        cannot work for the defense of the USSR in the war with the Reich, except in prison.
                        Not over nonsense, where about the war with the Reich, I wrote, in the context of the labor of prisoners? Poke my nose!
                      4. Octopus April 9 2020 01: 54 New
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                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        There were no sharashka on Magadan

                        Did not have. Was Korolev?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        accused of including the creation of inapplicable weapons

                        Who better than the prosecutor to know which weapons are applicable and which are not.
                        Korolev is the head of the group of rocket-planes and cruise missiles. Me-163 flew in the 41st, V-1 - in the 42nd.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        but formally he is guilty

                        June 28, 1938 the NKVD of the USSR for belonging to the Trotskyist, wrecking organization, acting at the research institute No. 3 (NKB USSR), the former engineer of the said institute Sergey Pavlovich was arrested and prosecuted.
                        During the investigation, Korolev found himself guilty of the fact that he was involved in the Trotskyite-wrecking organization in 1935 by the former technical director of research institute No. 3 Langemak (convicted).
                        On the instructions of the anti-Soviet organization, Korolev carried out wrecking work to disrupt the development and commissioning of new weapons of the Red Army
                        (ld 21-35, 53-55; 66-67, 238-239).

                        Stories of mother's Stalinists that in fact, he was tried for the case, and Trotskyism was simply copied from habit I already heard.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        For a government account, he developed a homing missile, without at least some malomalski working GSN

                        In this case, the lies of political officers are successfully supplemented by your illiteracy.
                        In 1936, he led the development of a powder winged torpedo; knowing in advance that the main parts of this torpedo — devices with photocells — for controlling a torpedo and aiming it at a target, cannot be manufactured by a central wire communication laboratory,

                        From this description comrade a prosecutor at a reader like you faces the Soviet Stalin Helfair. In reality, there was no question of pointing at the target. Rocket 06, which Korolev worked on in the 36th year, did not fly 200 meters during the tests (and who did it fly more in the 36th year?). The task of the control system on photocells is to distinguish the bright sky from the dark earth and provide the product with a relatively horizontal flight through the control of the planes. The distortion with the photocells was invented only because the Soviet industry did not master much of the normal way — the gyroscope. But in general, the Queen didn’t give a damn, the photocells there or, I don’t know, AFAR. Its task is to develop a scheme for the use of control planes in the CR.
                        The same problem at the stage of developing SD was solved by both Germans and Americans. Regardless of the type of SU. This task belongs to the glider, and not to the SU, and yes, this is a separate serious task. How to achieve that the brainless piece of iron just flew forward, and not up or down.
                        It was such tasks that it was time to solve in the late 30s. As the Germans decided from the 33rd year. Americans yes, Americans joined in the 42nd and went this way in a couple of years. But not everyone is lucky to be born Americans.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        You already began to tear up phrases, completely distorting the meaning,

                        What is the distortion of meaning?
                        Andrei Nikolaevich Tupolev, who did so much for the Soviet country, slept for 4 years on the bunk on the following charges:
                        The Tupolev case of A. N. Launched on January 7, 1938, January 1939, 4 days, senior investigator of the NKVD investigative unit, State Security Lieutenant Esipenko, having examined the investigation case No. 14415 on charges of A. N. Tupolev under Art. 58 p. 6, 7, 9, 11 * of the Criminal Code of the RSFSR, found:
                        ... At present, evidence has been received from the arrested Nekrasov and Walter, incriminating Tupolev as one of the leaders of terrorist activities in the counter-revolutionary Cadet-Fascist organization that existed in Moscow and called itself the Russian-fascist party. Tupolev was arrested on October 21.10.37, 3. He was awarded 29 Orders of Lenin, Orders of the Red Star and the Red Banner of Labor. The son of a landowner. The head of the design bureau of NAGI, deputy director of TsAGI, lives: 33 Kalyaevskaya street, apt. XNUMX.
                        Tupolev grouped anti-Soviet people in TsAGI, created an anti-Soviet organization and engaged in wrecking work in the field of aviation industry

                        *58.1. Any action aimed at overthrowing, undermining or weakening the power of the Workers 'and Peasants' Soviets and existing on the basis of the Constitution of the RSFSR is recognized as counter-revolutionary. Workers 'and Peasants' Government, as well as actions in the direction of assistance to that part of the international bourgeoisie that does not recognize the equality of the communist property system that is replacing capitalism and seeks to overthrow it through intervention or blockade, espionage, financing the press, etc.

                        Counter-revolutionary is also recognized as such an action which, not being directly aimed at achieving the above goals, however, knowingly for the perpetrator, contains an attempt on the main political or economic achievements of the proletarian revolution.
                        58.6. Participation in an organization acting for the purposes referred to in Article 58.1 of this Code by inciting the population to mass unrest, tax evasion and failure to fulfill duties or by any other means to the detriment of the dictatorship of the working class and the proletarian revolution, even if an armed uprising or armed invasion was the immediate task of this organization,
                        58.7. Counteraction to the normal activities of state institutions and enterprises or their appropriate use for the destruction and undermining of state industry, trade and transport, in order to carry out the actions provided for in article 58.1 (economic counter - revolution)
                        58.9. Organization for counter - revolutionary purposes of destruction or damage by an explosion, arson, or other means of railway or other means of communication, means of public communication, water pipes, public warehouses and other structures or structures, as well as participation in the execution of these crimes
                        58.11. Active actions or active struggle against the working class and the revolutionary movement, manifested in responsible or highly secret posts under the tsarist regime or with counter-revolutionary governments during the civil war


                        Is it good?

                        Of course it’s good, I will answer. Good but not enough. The man who served one of the most abominable regimes in human history deserves much more. (Is condescension to Tupolev possible? Yes, it is possible. Tupolev served 4 out of his 15 years, Messerschmitt - two)

                        But is this reasonable from a military point of view? Did this interfere with his work as an aircraft designer?

                        And so it goes - you answer. Apparently, you hate the Soviet regime even more than me, colleague. I would support both the arrest and the execution of Tupolev, but after the war, and not before.

                        Like Shakhurina.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        but you saw a mobilization economy!

                        Exactly. The actual abandonment of the free circulation of consumer goods (and food) in the name of the development of military industries. Already in the late 20s. Reich lived up to the year 43rd, EMNIP.

                        That is how the USSR won in that war.
                      5. Vladimir_2U April 9 2020 06: 00 New
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                        Quote: Octopus
                        There were no sharashka on Magadan
                        Did not have. Was Korolev?
                        Was, and what? He was accused and convicted, and according to the testimony of Kleimenov and Langemak, by the way !.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        that in fact, he was tried for the case, and Trotskyism was simply copied by habit, as I already heard.
                        Korolev, it turns out obviously knew about the impossibility of using this missile in military affairs, but in any case:
                        In 1936, he led the development of a powder winged torpedo; knowing in advance that the main parts of this torpedo are devices with photocells - for controlling a torpedo and pointing it at a target, cannot be manufactured by the central laboratory of wire communication, .... tests of four torpedoes built by the Royal showed their complete unsuitability, which caused damage to the state in the amount of 120 000 rubles and delayed the development of other more relevant topics

                        And it’s absolutely the same if the f-elements would do the work of pointing (you basically don’t understand what it was about) or stabilization work. And by the way, this is your stupid passage, moreover;
                        Quote: Octopus
                        The task of the control system on photocells is to distinguish the bright sky from the dark earth and provide the product with a relatively horizontal flight through the control of the planes. The distortion with the photocells was invented only because the Soviet industry did not master much of the normal way — the gyroscope.
                        Have you come up with this idiocy? Those. at night this rocket can’t be launched at all, or what? Great weapon for the Red Army! How there Zhorozh Miloslavsky said about Bunshu ...
                        Quote: Octopus
                        In this case, the lies of political officers are successfully supplemented by your illiteracy.

                        wonderful, wonderful reason to ride on YOUR ignorance and I’m not even afraid of this word of stupidity !! The relative track and vertical stability of unmanned aircraft, and without any instruments, was available even to pioneers in aircraft circles! Gyroscopes were used with might and main both in Aubrey devices and in autopilots, yes, in the USSR there were autopilots in 36 g! Or maybe the Germans used PV in the stabilization system? Well, look, poke my nose. That's really stupid! FE as an element of autopilot !!!
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Korolev is the head of the group of rocket-planes and cruise missiles. Me-163 flew in the 41st, V-1 - in the 42nd.
                        And what is the military value of these machines? No! How many Me-163s shot down aircraft? 400 aircraft shot down as many as 9 (16) aircraft, but they killed more of their pilots! What is the military value of the V-1, as well as the V-2 without nuclear weapons? Only terrorist! Shoot in the direction of London, you look and kill someone. 25000 missiles with a ton of explosives each, so what? 8000 killed and 17000 wounded civilians in Britain? A lot, but Germany didn’t help either!
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Its task is to develop a scheme for the use of control planes in the Kyrgyz Republic
                        What a stupidity !!! Not Korolev, no! His KR according to the airplane scheme! And control by airplane scheme! Although ailerons, even all-turning planes, but at least what can be applied, what is used on airplanes, do you understand this?
                        Quote: Octopus
                        How to achieve that the brainless piece of iron just flew forward, and not up or down.
                        It was such tasks that it was time to solve in the late 30s. ..
                        Well, dullness and absolute ignorance of the subject! All the creators of the Kyrgyz Republic and just missiles fought to increase the accuracy of the hit! ACCURACY! Reducing the CVO at least tells you something? Prior to the creation of nuclear weapons and sufficiently accurate guidance systems, all FAA and Soviet KR were militarily insignificant, and especially Korolev’s KR, with 30 kg of payload against a ton of the FAA.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        But in general, the Queen didn’t give a damn, the photocells there or, I don’t know, AFAR
                        It seems to you exactly no difference.
                        And attention! FE in missile guidance! It was planned! Use! I was personally surprised to learn that the SEC was working on an anti-aircraft missile with guidance on the spotlight! And these works successfully failed. So the investigation may not have been very competent, but knew more about the case than you.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Rocket 06, on which Korolev worked in the 36th year, did not fly 200 meters during the tests (and who did it fly more in the 36th year?)
                        Yes, anyone, at the same Korolev RD in 33 g. Flew 150 m. Von Braun, in those same years, launched his missiles at 2 km, and in height. You don’t know a damn thing about this topic, and don’t understand. And you certainly understand less than the investigation in the Korolev case.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Andrei Nikolaevich Tupolev, who did so much for the Soviet country, slept for 4 years on the bunk on the following charges:

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Secondly, if the only specialist in metal planes in the country wants an American refrigerator, give him a refrigerator.
                        Do you seriously think that Tupolev was the only one and sat down at the refrigerator?
                        What does it have to do with what article he "slept", a good word, by the way, perfectly shows your true attitude towards those who were sitting. You wrote so, as if Tupolev was the only specialist and sat down in the refrigerator, and for the second time you are misinterpreting the meaning of your own phrase.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Tupolev grouped anti-Soviet people in TsAGI, created an anti-Soviet organization and engaged in wrecking work in the field of aviation industry
                        58.6. Participation in an organization operating for the purposes referred to in Article 58.1 of this Code by arousing the population to mass unrest, non-payment of taxes and non-fulfillment of duties.
                        58.7. Counteraction to the normal activities of state institutions and enterprises or their appropriate use for the destruction and undermining of state industry, trade and transport ..
                        58.9. Organization for counter - revolutionary purposes of destruction or damage by an explosion, arson or other means of railway or other means of communication, ...
                        Why did you stuff such a piece of dough for? Do you understand those that any state, any regime subscribes to these articles, is it worth replacing the words "counter-revolutionary" with "extremist" or "anti-constitutional"? And the fact that Tupolev, dismissed the language before imprisonment, is well known, and his chatter in the circle of "like-minded people" may well be defined as "organization and agitation." And his activities, before the deadline, markedly impeded the development of bomber aircraft in the USSR. So the deadline benefited, if not Tupolev, then the country for sure.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        but you saw a mobilization economy!
                        Exactly. The actual abandonment of the free circulation of consumer goods (and food) in the name of the development of military industries.
                        And again a tattered quote! Not to mention any understanding of the book! Where did you see the lack of food turnover? What is the "free circulation of food" ?! Ate, shook, ate again, or what? You don’t understand what you are doing anymore. Reread the book! Koreiko and Bender could not spend the stolen money on luxury goods, and even that, only because they could not prove the legitimacy of their origin! This is not the current "unemployed" on the "Maybach", in which millions of people are pulling out of handbags, but you don’t understand this, or you pretend you don’t understand.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        The man who served one of the most abominable regimes in human history deserves much more.
                        Yes, it’s already clear that the regime gave the Russian, and not only the laboring man a free breath, but gave his children a childhood, which gave hope to the people of labor and science, including, around the world, hope for the best and showed those in power that without them " chosenness "normal life and development is possible, and what kind of development, the regime has grinded Nazism and brought mankind into space - for you and people like you," is one of the most disgusting regimes in human history. "
                    2. Octopus April 9 2020 03: 06 New
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                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      This is after all about the only specialist, and not the only one crouched, so, it seems, no?

                      In relation to metal planes, these are Tupolev, Petlyakov and Myasishchev. Yes, everyone is sitting. Actually, the Tupolev Design Bureau was the main for metal planes in the USSR. Actually, below you quote it yourself.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Not all, but only those whom the “hero of the day” himself))) remembered !:

                      You mean that the Soviet aircraft industry Tupolev personally transferred to the People’s Commissariat of Beria? Oh well
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      clauses written by the sick imagination of the legislator

                      Exactly.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Well, of course, where are we, me and the legislator, from before your flight of thought. And also we are far from the imagination of Chechens, with their fake memos, far, like the moon, to the pyramids a la Khoper, to the permission for the industrial cashless payment of “payments” to the “cooperators” to redeem real values, and for the artificial bankruptcy of strategic enterprises and their subsequent destruction of interested parties together with families to the wall you need to put!

                      What are your interesting associations with the USSR of the 30s.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Yes, the real seer wrote this paragraph! You, with your judgment to him as a cockroach to a walking excavator, excuse me

                      This is certain.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      To your credit, you didn’t scare me with landings, it’s like that.

                      How to tell you. I am not a supporter of empty threats to strangers. But this does not say anything about my position.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Not over nonsense, where about the war with the Reich, I wrote, in the context of the labor of prisoners? Poke my nose!

                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      And you, time after time, repeat this lie. I wrote about Anglophiles and Zionists, and you drag people accused, rightly or not, of embezzlement and sabotage.

                      I am not going to look for you Anglophiles and Zionists in Soviet sentences. Tupolev, for example, was a French and German spy, as far as I remember, that is, not an Anglophile or a Zionist, but this is pure coincidence. However, I declare that, for example, Churchill was an Anglophile. Worse, he was an enemy of Soviet power. But this did not stop Churchill from helping the USSR fight with the Reich while at large. Less than Comrade would like Stalin, but much more than was reasonable from the point of view of English interests. While.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      What did the designer have in his head could not be blessed with "universal values," especially Zionist and Anglophilic, at that time?

                      Therefore, I am interested in specific names. How did the arrest or death of these people relate to the defenses of the Soviet homeland on the threshold and during the Great War? Strengthened or, conversely, weakened? This question seems important to me in the context of who was the enemy of the people there.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Sorry, but that he poured mud on the USSR, that you adhere to the same position, and this is the position of the enemies of the USSR, it is no longer, no matter how sorry, this is the position of the enemies of today's Russia.

                      You are absolutely right, the enemies of the USSR are the enemies of Putin’s state, unfortunately. Do not lie to yourself, as many of them do, that today's Russia is not the USSR. Some of them at least separate Putin's state from the Russian people (cf. Hitlers come and go, but the German people, and the German state remains), and the part no longer considers it necessary to do this.
                      By the way, one of our differences with Solzhenitsyn. He considered the Russian people an innocent victim of Soviet power. I do not think.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Significantly worse than what result?

                      Than American. The history of the USSR did not end in the 45th year.
                    3. Vladimir_2U April 9 2020 07: 08 New
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                      Quote: Octopus
                      In relation to metal planes, these are Tupolev, Petlyakov and Myasischev
                      Arkhangelsky (In 1938, Alexander Arkhangelsky was arrested on false charges, but was not convicted, but what was that? Apparently not at all. So the innocents were not convicted, mainly.), Ermolaev, Ilyushin. By the way, Petlyakov and Myasishchev Tupolev clamped, and he framed them.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      You mean that the Soviet aircraft industry Tupolev personally transferred to the People’s Commissariat of Beria? Oh well
                      You don’t have to work under the fool,
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      This position seemed reasonable to me, and I wrote a list of 200 people
                      Two hundred people. And the fact that Tupolev writes about “already sitting” is what he later writes, portrays himself as “little white fluffy”. They planted him at his submission, but he "will not put the entire aircraft industry."
                      Quote: Octopus
                      clauses written by the sick imagination of the legislator
                      Exactly.
                      It is some kind of inadequacy, of the level of women Lera and Borovoy, to consider as “clauses written by a sick imagination of the legislator” articles on punishment for: espionage; subversive activities; sabotage and failure to report acts of extremism. How is it, by the way, in the United States that you adore?


                      Quote: Octopus
                      And also we are far from the imagination of Chechens, with their fake memos, far, like the moon, to the pyramids a la Khoper, to the permission for the industrial cashless payment of “payments” to the “cooperators” to redeem real values, and for the artificial bankruptcy of strategic enterprises and their subsequent destruction of interested parties together with families to the wall you need to put!
                      What are your interesting associations with the USSR of the 30s.

                      Well, of course, it’s easy to “mow” the fool, it’s easier than recognizing that everything described above falls under:
                      Quote: Octopus
                      58-7. Undermining state industry, transport, trade, money circulation or the credit system, as well as cooperation, committed for counter-revolutionary purposes through the appropriate use of state institutions and enterprises, or opposing their normal activities
                      And if this article acted, then advisers, MMMs and other trash, if it had not been destroyed, then it would have sat down for a long time! Or do you think that scammers, thieves and raiders are innocent lambs?
                      Quote: Octopus
                      However, I declare that, for example, Churchill was an Anglophile. Worse, he was an enemy of Soviet power. But this did not stop Churchill from helping the USSR fight with the Reich, while at large
                      How pleasant it would be for Churchill to help Hitler, do not diplomatically outplay both of them. And Church helped Stalin only during the war, moreover, the Great Patriotic War, and not the TDC.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Therefore, I am interested in specific names. How did the arrest or death of these people relate to the defenses of the Soviet homeland on the threshold and during the Great War? Strengthened or, conversely, weakened? This question seems important to me in the context of who was the enemy of the people there.
                      Do I have to disassemble each specific case? Is it too impudent a demand? Enough and Tupolev, as the "Cases of the Industrial Party." Enemies of the people were in the NKVD, unfortunately. And they did their own harm, but this is not a reason for all en masse engineers and scientists to imagine angels in the flesh.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Some of them at least separate Putin's state from the Russian people (cf. Hitlers come and go, and the people are German, but the German state remains), and some do not consider it necessary to do this.
                      By the way, one of our differences with Solzhenitsyn. He considered the Russian people an innocent victim of Soviet power. I do not think.
                      It is very rare that an anti-Soviet does not hide the fact that he is a Russophobe, a bit of respect for you for this.

                      Quote: Octopus
                      Significantly worse than what result?
                      Than American. The history of the USSR did not end in the 45th year.
                      Are you talking about the A-project? So even if we assume that it is seamless with the American, and this is not so, the results are comparable, with undoubtedly less resources of the USSR. The space project showed the superiority of the USSR in this matter, and it was under Werner Light Brown then in the service of the United States. Well, etc. If you are talking about the murder of the USSR, then this is largely due to the accumulation in the country of people like you, but do not imagine, in many ways, but not in everything. An analogue to this, when a flowering athlete and smart girl, a neighbor, a drug-addict, stuck a speedy sharpening into the liver, when this athlete had the imprudence to substitute his side.
                    4. Octopus April 9 2020 09: 51 New
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                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Arkhangelsky (In 1938, Alexander Arkhangelsky was arrested on false charges, but was not convicted, but what’s so? Apparently not at all. So innocent people were not convicted, mainly

                      wassat
                      The innocent were not condemned, yes. For the sake of comrade Arkhangelsk subordinates comrade Beria was too lazy to stamp a tattered piece of paper about Trotskyism. He trumpeted for 3 years in the same sharaga without a sentence, as a prisoner as a prisoner.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      By the way, Petlyakov and Myasishchev Tupolev clamped, and he framed them.

                      Yes Yes. Beria gave an order.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      They planted him at his submission, but he "will not put the entire aircraft industry."

                      Exactly. Tupolev is to blame for everything, if planted.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Everything described above falls under:

                      Your understanding of law is quite Stalinist.
                      It falls under different articles. For example, the Hoper, which is so attached to you, is
                      169. Abuse of trust or deception in order to obtain property or the right to property or other personal benefits (fraud), - imprisonment for up to two years.

                      As for the Chechen memos, the perpetrators of this are well known and have never been hidden - B.N. Yeltsin and V.V. Gerashchenko, then chairman of the Central Bank (he, by the way, is alive). It was they, with current money, who gave the Central Bank of the DPR the right to print rubles. I have to draw your attention to the fact that there are no questions for these people on these matters there was and no. They are not Trotskyists.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Or do you think that scammers, thieves and raiders are innocent lambs?

                      I believe that none of the previously repressed specialists listed was a fraud, a thief or a raider.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      do not diplomatically replay Stalin both of them

                      Stalin outplayed everyone.
                      Another replayer.
                      Nonetheless. The joint work of the Soviet government and the Anglophiles in the presence of a common cause is quite possible, as it turned out.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      overly "Cases of the Industrial Party"

                      I did not ask anything about the case of the Industrial Party. You are right, it’s in the same piggy bank, but earlier, so it’s more difficult to trace the connection with defense capability.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Enough and Tupolev

                      What is enough for Tupolev? In sharaga, he began to work more and better, did I understand you correctly? And you do not agree with his rehabilitation?
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Are you talking about the A-project?

                      I'm talking about the results of the economy as a whole.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      The space project showed the superiority of the USSR in this matter,

                      The space project showed that in a democracy, Dwight Eisenhower, an even more stupidly snout creature than even Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev, could be elected president of the United States. This is one of the minuses of democracy.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      it is under Werner Light Brown then in the service of the USA

                      Among other things, Dwight Eisenhower hated the SS. He barely tolerated the presence of the Shturbannfuhrer in the military field, but his participation in the civilian project was unacceptable to Eisenhower.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      An analogue to this, when a flowering athlete and smart girl, a neighbor, a drug-addict, stuck a speedy sharpening into the liver, when this athlete had the imprudence to substitute his side.

                      Very good thanks. Honestly, I did not expect that my role in the death of the USSR is so great. Sewed in the liver, no one Margaret Thatcher, khe khe.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Was, and what? He was accused and convicted, and according to the testimony of Kleimenov and Langemak, by the way !.

                      Ah, now the late Kleimenov and Langemak, Heroes of labor posthumously, were they sent to him by the stage? Better and better.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Korolev, it turns out, obviously knew about the impossibility of use in military affairs,

                      They told you in Russian that the first used in combat conditions of the Kyrgyz Republic was the V-1, which was developed in the same years. But unmanned aerial vehicles were produced before her, and in large quantities. Used as anti-aircraft targets.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Those. at night this rocket can’t be launched at all, or what?

                      It is possible, but it’s better not, it will not fly far. Actually, she didn’t especially fly during the day.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Great weapon for the Red Army!

                      This is not a weapon at all. This is a research program. We need a weapon - take a hammer, it does not need to be examined.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Yes, at least what can be applied, what is used on airplanes, do you understand that?

                      Unfortunately, it is not clear to you. On airplanes, all this is used by man. In most cases (not always) a person distinguishes the earth from heaven and the top from the bottom quite confidently. And the Soviet Elmer Sperry either did not freak out, or was shot on time.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      All the creators of the Kyrgyz Republic and just missiles fought to increase the accuracy of the hit!

                      In the case of Korolev, the task was to ensure horizontal flight in a given direction. In fact, to come up with an autopilot, at a price and size comparable to a powder rocket, not an airplane. To the accuracy there to swim and swim.
                      And yes, Korolev most likely underestimated the complexity of the task.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      in those years, 2 km launched its missiles, and in height

                      In height, it’s just easier. Apparently, you do not distinguish KR from BR.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      your true attitude towards the seated.

                      )))
                      Quote: Octopus
                      I would support both the arrest and the execution of Tupolev

                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Why did you stuff such a piece of dough for?

                      To make it harder for you to tell why they put Tupolev actually. For what is written, for that they planted. Terrorist, then.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      So the deadline benefited, if not Tupolev, then the country for sure.

                      Perfectly.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Yes, it’s already clear that the regime gave the Russian, and not only the laboring man a free breath, but gave his children a childhood, which gave hope to the people of labor and science, including, around the world, hope for the best

                      It is very convenient that your two statements stand side by side.
                      I completely agree with you. The Russian people of labor and science deserve this.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      It is very rare that an anti-Soviet does not hide the fact that he is a Russophobe, a bit of respect for you for this.

                      Thank. So really much more convenient, the picture of the world is much less controversial.
                    5. Vladimir_2U April 9 2020 11: 17 New
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                      Quote: Octopus
                      He trumpeted for 3 years in the same sharaga without a sentence, as a prisoner as a prisoner.
                      Translated to closed mode, as in Los Alamos.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Yes Yes. Beria gave an order.
                      Indications to the investigator.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Exactly. Tupolev is to blame for everything, if planted.
                      According to his list, and if "the entire aviation industry" is 200 people for you, then this is a diagnosis.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      It falls under different articles. For example, the Hoper, which is so attached to you, is
                      169. Abuse of trust or deception in order to obtain property or the right to property or other personal benefits (fraud), - imprisonment for up to two years
                      With stolen huge funds and thousands of deceived investors? Up to two years? You don’t even need to look for anything to refute this stupidity. And undermining the authority of the state, for a minute ...
                      Quote: Octopus
                      B.N. Yeltsin and V.V. Gerashchenko, then chairman of the Central Bank (he, by the way, is alive). It was they, with current money, who gave the Central Bank of the DPR the right to print rubles. I have to draw your attention to the fact that there were no questions to these people in these matters and there are no. They are not Trotskyists.
                      Powerfully, you can’t say anything, maybe they didn’t answer because they adopted laws for themselves? The terrorists in the Nord-Ost were not Trotskyists either, but they were sleeping without trial or investigation. That is really your logic is not even flawed, some kind of patient. And by the way, did the Central Bank of the DPR print Russian rubles? From which Banderstadt did you see this?
                      Quote: Octopus
                      I didn’t ask anything about the case of the Industrial Party
                      And I didn’t ask anything about the Golden Calf.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Enough and Tupolev
                      What is enough for Tupolev?
                      Based on the torn quotation, questions to ask rudeness. But I will bring her completely.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Do I have to disassemble each specific case? Is it too impudent a demand? Enough and Tupolev, as over-sufficient "Cases of the Industrial Party"

                      Quote: Octopus
                      Or do you think that scammers, thieves and raiders are innocent lambs?
                      I believe that none of the previously repressed specialists listed was a fraud, a thief or a raider.
                      Again juggling, you are extremely stupidly called paragraph 58 of the article "clauses invented by a sick person," something like that. I have denied this stupidity of yours by the example of thieves and raiders scammers, whose acts completely fell under the paragraphs of this article.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      I'm talking about the results of the economy as a whole.

                      I don’t see any sense in writing about different starting and intermediate conditions for the development of economies.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      The space project showed that in a democracy, Dwight Eisenhower, an even more stupidly snout creature than even Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev, could be elected president of the United States.
                      However, this did not stop the Americans from launching all the FAU-2 exported from Germany, and a lot. And to no avail.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Among other things, Dwight Eisenhower hated the SS.
                      And what prevented the conviction of the WFB for crimes against humanity, like hundreds of war criminals? Not so apparently hated.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Very good thanks. Honestly, I did not expect that my role in the death of the USSR is so great
                      Yeah, it’s written about you.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      If you are talking about the murder of the USSR, then this is largely due to the accumulation in the country of people like you, but do not imagine, in many ways, but not in everything.

                      But it looks like the text directly relating to you does not overpower you!
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Sewed in the liver, no one Margaret Thatcher, khe khe.
                      It's funny, yes.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Ah, now the late Kleimenov and Langemak, Heroes of labor posthumously, were they sent to him by the stage?
                      And what? Testimony, and unanimous different persons under investigation are not enough to start a case? Are you in general (in what reality) where do you live?
                      Quote: Octopus
                      They told you in Russian that the first used in combat conditions of the Kyrgyz Republic was the V-1, which was developed in the same years
                      So what? and I wrote that the V-1 was not of great military importance, and this is with a ton of explosives.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      But unmanned aerial vehicles were produced before her, and in large quantities. Used as anti-aircraft targets.
                      And how did they stay on course?
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Those. at night this rocket can’t be launched at all, or what?
                      It is possible, but it’s better not, it will not fly far. Actually, she didn’t especially fly during the day.
                      You are stupid on the occasion of FE and technical illiteracy is already covering some sort of nonsense.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Great weapon for the Red Army!
                      This is not a weapon at all. This is a research program. We need a weapon - take a hammer, it does not need to be examined.
                      Yes, you frankly breshet! 212 missile precisely how a military missile was developed, with insignificant military significance even against the background of not only Fau-1, Fau-2! An anti-aircraft missile, from which the PV appeared in the guidance system, how weapons were developed! Liar!
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Yes, at least what can be applied, what is used on airplanes, do you understand that?
                      Unfortunately, it is not clear to you. On airplanes, all this is used by man.
                      This is your definition of the Korolev problem, which is somehow defective, though:
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Its task is to develop a scheme for the use of control planes in the Kyrgyz Republic.

                      Quote: Octopus
                      In most cases (not always) a person distinguishes the earth from heaven and the top from the bottom quite confidently. And the Soviet Elmer Sperry either did not freak out, or was shot on time.
                      You obviously persist in stupidity about PE, I wrote about Aubrey, do you even know what it is? This is a device based on a gyroscope, and the Soviet industry has completely mastered and produced it! I wrote about Soviet autopilots, and for 34-36 years. But you do not care. Here is the expression "hollow in the eyes," it looks like about you. And the industry of the USSR before the war mastered not only that of Sperry, Anshyutts mastered, albeit for ships no lower than 2nd rank !.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      In the case of Korolev, the task was to ensure horizontal flight in a given direction. In fact, to come up with an autopilot, at a price and size comparable to a powder rocket, not an airplane. To the accuracy there to swim and swim.

                      What nonsense! Korolev did the rocket and the KR and didn’t normally! Controls are not his diocese!
                      Quote: Octopus
                      To make it more difficult for you to tell why Tupolev was actually imprisoned. For what is written, for that they planted. Terrorist, then.
                      You also recognized yourself as a troll.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      So really much more convenient, the picture of the world is much less controversial.
                      Did you praise yourself, or what? Are you all so complicated, or what?
                    6. Octopus April 9 2020 13: 19 New
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                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Translated to closed mode, as in Los Alamos.

                      Actually, the prison in which our out-of-office life took place occupied the top three floors on the street. Radio. There were three large bedrooms overlooking the courtyard, dining room, kitchen, sanitary unit and a monkey. Numerous administration and security premises overlooked the street. Three of these floors communicated with the rest, where we worked, with one internal staircase. We did not have our own punishment cell and took the guilty to Butyrki.
                      We were awakened at 7 in the morning, time until 8 was allotted for cleaning the bedrooms, washing, shaving, physical exercises, etc. From 8 to 9 there was breakfast, after which we worked until one o’clock in the afternoon, when we went to dinner. From 2 to 7 again work, then rest until 8, dinner and free time until 11, when the lights were off. The check was carried out at night, in the beds when we were sleeping.
                      Closer to the war, the working day was extended to 10 hours, and from the spring of 1941 to 12. They fed well enough, for breakfast - kefir, tea, butter, porridge; two-course lunch and compote; for dinner - a hot dish, kefir, butter, tea. For those who worked after dinner at 10 o’clock in the dining room brought yogurt and bread.
                      After the camps, such food was reminiscent of Lukul feasts

                      But the arrested tried as best they could - after all, they were promised that after a successful test of the designed aircraft they will be allowed to go home

                      Los Alamos, yes.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Indications to the investigator.

                      What if the enemy of the people of Tupolev, with the aim of destroying the Soviet aircraft industry and on the instructions of the French intelligence, slandered honest people, real communists? Who should think about this?
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      if “the entire aviation industry” is 200 people for you, then this is a diagnosis.

                      Of the designers of the massive WWII aircraft at different times were:
                      Tupolev, Petlyakov, Myasischev, Arkhangelsk, Polikarpov.
                      Not sitting: Yakovlev, Mikoyan, Lavochkin, Sukhoi, Ilyushin. Didn’t forget anyone?
                      5:5
                      Moreover, if the former were their “companies”, then the latter were talented amateurs to varying degrees, who simply hadn’t gotten their hands on it yet.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      With stolen huge funds and thousands of deceived investors? Up to two years?

                      Yes. If you were even a little aware of the history of domestic, hmm, law, you would know that the problems of private individuals were not indifferent to the Soviet legislator. He became Tupolev a Trotskyist - he got 15 years old, and if he just killed someone in the heat of the moment
                      138. Intentional homicide committed in a state of sudden strong emotional disturbance caused by violence or heavy insult by the victim, imprisonment for up to five years or forced labor for up to one year.
                      .
                      Forced work is like TsKB-29, only spending the night at home. Year.

                      This has not passed yet.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      And undermining the authority of the state, for a minute ...

                      What other authority? Did Mr. Mavrodi wish for the restoration of the Romanovs? Did he act in the interests of bourgeois intelligence? No and no.
                      And for Khoper and everything else, thank just your native state. This is a native government with a native parliament, and for one and the Sun, did not take the trouble to register pyramidal schemes as a form of fraud in the normative.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      The terrorists in the Nord-Ost were not Trotskyists either, but they were sleeping without trial or investigation.

                      And where did the terrorists come from? What ideas do you have about the Central Bank?
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      I have denied this stupidity of yours by the example of thieves and raiders scammers, whose acts completely fell under the paragraphs of this article.

                      Do not fall. It seems that you sincerely do not understand that the 58th is an analogue of the 29th chapter of the Criminal Code, into which the Soviet legislator stuffed all kinds of garbage, and the law enforcement officer began to sew to anyone who got into it. This level of revolutionary justice is difficult to fix.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      all FAU-2 exported from Germany, and a lot. And to no avail.

                      It’s pretty good. While Korolev was playing with his companions, the SS men fired their tactical missiles throughout the GDR.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      And what prevented the conviction of the WFB for crimes against humanity, like hundreds of war criminals?

                      You see. Firstly, Aiki, should be given his due, did not seek to condemn everyone and everyone, especially the people who were useful to his country. Secondly, the topic of crimes against humanity is too slippery, swept to the noise once, but even then with a creak. Here, as it were, questions did not arise for Eisenhower himself, in the 53rd year in the USA it was no longer so easy to carry out processes in the style of Comrade. VYSHINSKY.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Testimony, and unanimous different persons under investigation are not enough to start a case?

                      Of course not. You do not agree with the rehabilitation of these convicts or what?
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      and I wrote that the V-1 was not of great military importance, and this is with a ton of explosives.

                      And why is this a question for the Queen in the 36th year, what military significance did the V-1 have?
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      And how did they stay on course?

                      Through the eyes of the operator. They are radio command.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      technical illiteracy is already covering some sort of nonsense.

                      The people who wrote the indictment were illiterate. Not Korolev.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Anti-aircraft missile, from which the PV appeared in the guidance system

                      Watch your tongue. Korolev did not engage in missiles, but in Kyrgyzstan. ZUR then, NYA, were not involved in the USSR at all, for impossibility and uselessness.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Anschütz mastered, even for ships of at least 2 rank !.

                      Try stuffing your Anschutz into a powder rocket.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      I wrote about Aubrey

                      Therefore, the royal product is called the "air torpedo". But the torpedo - it is big, heavy, it stands like a tank of that time. It is because of all these complex pieces. Doesn't fit your Aubrey.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      I wrote about Soviet autopilots

                      Yeah. Something like that, the Queen needs to be done for a disposable item.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Controls are not his diocese!

                      Exactly. However, it was the jamb with SU that the native authorities charged him with the review of the case.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      You also recognized yourself as a troll.

                      Do not understand. Are you against the official document of the NKVD or what?
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Are you all so complicated, or what?

                      On the contrary. Just the line with bad Stalin and good Russians is practically impossible to maintain.
                    7. Vladimir_2U April 9 2020 14: 41 New
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                      Quote: Octopus
                      Arkhangelsky (In 1938, Alexander Arkhangelsky was arrested on false charges, but was not convicted, but so what?

                      Quote: Octopus
                      Actually, the prison in which our out-of-office life took place occupied the top three floors on the street. Radio. There were three large bedrooms overlooking the courtyard, dining room, kitchen, sanitary unit and a monkey.
                      Are these the memories of Arkhangelsk?
                      Quote: Octopus
                      What if the enemy of the people of Tupolev, with the aim of destroying the Soviet aircraft industry and on the instructions of the French intelligence, slandered honest people, real communists?
                      That is, he could also be accused of being an honest slander? These are not my words.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Of the designers of the massive WWII aircraft at different times were:
                      Tupolev, Petlyakov, Myasischev, Arkhangelsk, Polikarpov.
                      Not sitting: Yakovlev, Mikoyan, Lavochkin, Sukhoi, Ilyushin. Didn’t forget anyone?
                      5:5
                      At different times! Not that your whining about:
                      Quote: Octopus
                      How did the arrest or death of these people relate to the defenses of the Soviet homeland on the threshold and during the Great War?
                      Arkhangelsky was not convicted, Polikarpov also served in Sharaga, by the way, much earlier than 39 g. Even if you do not remember Gurevich, Gudkov and Gorbunov, then half, approximately, of the chief designers, is far from the entire aviation industry.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      If you were even a little aware of the history of domestic, hmm, law, you would know that the problems of private individuals were not indifferent to the Soviet legislator
                      Another stupid thing! There was a certain priority in protecting state property over private, but this was expressed in terms. Crimes against the person were punished quite adequately
                      Quote: Octopus
                      He became Tupolev a Trotskyist - he got 15 years old, and if he just killed someone in the heat of the moment
                      Are you again Tupolev strictly Trotskyist expose? Let me remind you that it was you who also accused him of slandering honest people. And besides this, he screwed up the purchase of licenses and slowed down the development of new aircraft. And what does it mean that he killed in haste?
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Manslaughter committed in a state of sudden strong emotional unrest caused by violence or heavy insult by the victim, imprisonment for up to five years or forced labor for up to one year.
                      Didn’t it reach you that the "killed in a haste" it could have been a raped woman, and a man whose mother was cynically publicly insulted by some scum? It seems that even a thought did not flash. And “up to five years”, as it were, Tupolev served his term, not only with criminals, but with colleagues from his “list”.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      It seems that you sincerely do not understand that the 58th is an analogue of the 29th chapter of the Criminal Code, into which the Soviet legislator stuffed all kinds of garbage, and the law enforcement officer began to sew to anyone who got into it.
                      What is the Soviet legislator? Bring the 29th chapter of the Criminal Code of the USSR? The Criminal Code of the Russian Federation contains 29 chapters, Crimes against the Foundations of the Constitutional System and State Security. What do you think articles about espionage, extremism and all that garbage? And personally, I consider economic crimes, especially "raiding" with the goal of destroying the enterprise through bankruptcy, an anti-state crime and even treason.

                      Quote: Octopus
                      What other authority? Did Mr. Mavrodi wish for the restoration of the Romanovs? Did he act in the interests of bourgeois intelligence? No and no.
                      And for Khoper and everything else, thank just your native state. This is a native government with a native parliament, and for one and the Sun, did not take the trouble to register pyramidal schemes as a form of fraud in the normative.
                      It’s clear, it’s clear that they’ve included the fool again, because article 58 would instantly cover figures like Mavrodi, it’s not clear to you, yes.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      And where did the terrorists come from?
                      And from there, I’ll refresh your memory:
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      B.N. Yeltsin and V.V. Gerashchenko, then chairman of the Central Bank (he, by the way, is alive). It was they, with current money, who gave the Central Bank of the DPR the right to print rubles. I have to draw your attention to the fact that there were no questions to these people in these matters and there are no. They are not Trotskyists.
                      Powerfully, you can’t say anything, maybe they didn’t answer because they adopted laws for themselves? The terrorists in the Nord-Ost were not Trotskyists either, but they were sleeping without trial or investigation.
                      By the idiotic mention of "non-Trotskyists" you had to bind terrorists, too, by the way "non-Trotskyists".
                      Quote: Octopus
                      What ideas do you have about the Central Bank?
                      This is your idea, some kind of moronic, about the Central Bank of the DPR, in conjunction with the Chechen memos.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      It’s them, for the current money, gave the right to the Central Bank of the DNI to print rubles. I have to draw your attention to the fact that there were no questions to these people in these matters and there are no. They are not Trotskyists.

                      Quote: Octopus
                      all FAU-2 exported from Germany, and a lot. And to no avail.
                      It’s pretty good. While Korolev was playing with his companionsThe SS men made their tactical missiles throughout the GDR.
                      So all the same, Korolev was inclined to create worthless, but very curious things? Otherwise, how to explain these YOURS "played with your companions"? However, it’s clear to me that Korolev created primarily a global ICBM, and it became clear to your beloved Americans. And do you imagine that the USSR had no tactical missiles at that time?
                    8. Octopus April 9 2020 16: 04 New
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                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Are these the memories of Arkhangelsk?

                      Ozerova. Did Arkhangelsk spend the night at home?
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      That is, he could also be accused of being an honest slander?

                      And why is the question for me, and not for Lieutenant Esipenko?
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Arkhangelsk was not condemned,

                      And how did you live?
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Polikarpov served, also by the way in Sharaga, much earlier than 39 g

                      This also did not hinder him from working.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Even if you do not recall Gurevich, Gudkov and Gorbunov,

                      Do not remember. Were they definitely designers?
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Crimes against the person were punished quite adequately

                      2 years for Khoper - this is adequate, tea is not an animal, not in America.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Are you again Tupolev strictly Trotskyist expose?

                      Here, yes, to blame, stipulated. Tupolev was a member of the fascist constitutional democratic organization. Not a Trotskyist.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      screwed up the procurement of licenses and the development of new aircraft slowed down.

                      And I specifically wrote to you what he was accused of. Please choose from the proposed. A person in whose world there are fascist constitutional democrats understands in licenses and designing aircraft better than Tupolev and Petlyakov, yes.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Didn’t it reach you that the "killed in a haste" it could have been a raped woman, and a man whose mother was cynically publicly insulted by some scum?

                      Of course, this is much more excusable than being a fascist-constitutionalist-democrat. Such perverts generally need to be shot on the spot.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      The Criminal Code of the Russian Federation contains 29 chapters, Crimes against the Foundations of the Constitutional System and State Security.

                      Exactly.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      What do you think articles about espionage, extremism and all that garbage?

                      I consider it rubbish to write down most of the clauses of article 58 in crimes against the constitutional system and the state.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      And I personally consider economic crimes

                      I have already spoken about your justice.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      the fact that article 58 would allow you to instantly cover figures like Mavrodi, it’s not clear to you, yes.

                      Of course I would not allow it. We would like to close Mavrodi - we would close it without the 58th article. You clearly do not understand this.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      It was they, with current money, that gave the Central Bank of the DPR the right to print rubles

                      It says that the right to issue rubles was actually granted to a bank located in an unrecognized republic. Chechnya / Ichkeria was not de facto Russia at that time. So there is no need to look for anyone, the people who made this possible are all in Moscow and are well known.
                      Since one of these people is the head of state, no article of the Criminal Code will help you against him.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      So all the same, Korolev was inclined to create worthless, but very curious things?

                      Of course. It was his worthless, extremely expensive (paid with folk money), but very curious toys that brought the USSR primacy in space and inscribed this country in the history of mankind with the + sign. After 500 years, everything will be forgotten, and Gagarin and Korolev will remain like Columbus or Galileo. Like von Braun and Armstrong.

                      Yangel, who made the first real Soviet ICBM, is known only to specialists.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Korolev created primarily a global ICBM,

                      R-7 was not a military missile from the word "in general."
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Do you imagine that the USSR had no tactical missiles at that time?

                      In the mid-50s? And laughter and tears.
                    9. Vladimir_2U April 9 2020 17: 22 New
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                      0
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Ozerova. Did Arkhangelsk spend the night at home?
                      Give a proof to the contrary.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      That is, he could also be accused of being an honest slander?

                      And why is the question for me, and not for Lieutenant Esipenko?
                      But because these are YOUR words:
                      Quote: Octopus
                      And suddenly, an enemy of the people of Tupolev, with the aim of destroying the Soviet aircraft industry and on the instructions of French intelligence, slandered honest peoplereal communists?
                      What, the memory of the fish?
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Arkhangelsk was not condemned,
                      And how did you live?
                      And why is the question for me, and not for Arkhangelsk?
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Polikarpov served, also by the way in Sharaga, much earlier than 39 g

                      This also did not hinder him from working.
                      Maybe, maybe not. He is not Tupolev.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Crimes against the person were punished quite adequately
                      2 years for Khoper - this is adequate, tea is not an animal, not in America.
                      How so, you in America are few that do not dry. And what, for Khoper, someone got two years? I just don’t know, for me that MMM, that Seleng, that Khoper, is semi-abstract, this has not directly affected me. But grandmas, grandfather feel sorry.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      And I specifically wrote to you what he was accused of. Please choose from the proposed. A person in whose world there are fascist constitutional democrats understands in licenses and designing aircraft better than Tupolev and Petlyakov, yes.
                      They wrote, but I almost got to this:
                      recognized the wrecking on the construction of the “DBA” aircraft, delays in the construction of stratospheric aircraft along DB-2, RD, VIT, DB-3, I-21, PB, SB, DMP;
                      - admitted that he thwarted Gromov’s flight to establish a range, thwarted in 1935 the government’s planned flight of Levanevsky through the North Pole to America, and in 1937, a number of wrecking acts led to the death of the crew of Levanevsky’s plane while flying to America through the North Pole. In 1924 he was recruited by Morgulis for espionage in favor of France. While in Paris in 1935, he personally transmitted espionage information about fighter planes and light bombers to French Minister of Aviation Denin.
                      At the interrogation on 23.11.38/XNUMX/XNUMX, Tupolev refused testimony regarding espionage.
                      Tupolev refused only from testimony regarding espionage. This is what you brazenly kept silent! And here's another:
                      Of the contracts concluded by PSU NKOP, only two Douglas and Consteleited should be recognized as effective, the rest of the contracts for Valti combat aircraft and Glen-Martin civilian aircraft, due to their flight technical and technical backwardness, do not represent any price for us

                      https://ss69100.livejournal.com/4019359.html
                      Also from the Internet, it is also not particularly checked, but the Tupolev case is far from all laid out, even the accusatory part, to put it mildly, is not all. And about the cadets of the fascist democrats, it’s funny, yes, if you don’t know about fascist Italy, are you aware of fascist Italy? There was democracy and a constitution and fascism, and a king to the heap!
                      Quote: Octopus
                      I consider it rubbish to write down most of the clauses of article 58 in crimes against the constitutional system and the state.
                      Announce the entire list, and it’s very vague!
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Of course I would not allow it. We would like to close Mavrodi - we would close it without the 58th article. You clearly do not understand this.
                      You obviously don’t understand, or pretend that if you acted 58th, you would have imprisoned Mavrodi and a lot of other perpetrators of fraud on such a scale, and not because they wanted, did not want, but because otherwise you would have sat down, and more severe language.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      It says that the right to issue rubles was actually
                      WHAT? What side do the false notices relate to the right to issue money? Are you sure not? You or or troll me.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      So all the same, Korolev was inclined to create worthless, but very curious things?

                      Of course. It was his worthless, extremely expensive (paid with folk money), but very curious toys that brought the USSR primacy in space and inscribed this country in the history of mankind with the + sign
                      And again, a tattered quote, your style is rather scanty to argue, but I will bring it all
                      Quote: Octopus
                      It’s pretty good. While Korolev was playing with his companions, the SS men fired their tactical missiles throughout the GDR.
                      There is no doubt that in this phrase you are derogatory about the Korolevsky passion for business.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Yangel, who made the first real Soviet ICBM, is known only to specialists.
                      And the SEC did earlier and demonstrated in 1957, in principle, the first ICBM that could reach America. Yangel not earlier than 1960 created his own ICBM. So get smart somewhere else.
                      Quote: Octopus
                      R-7 was not a military missile from the word "general"
                      And what, she couldn’t hit your adored USA with a nuclear warhead?
                      Quote: Octopus
                      Do you imagine that the USSR had no tactical missiles at that time?
                      In the mid-50s? And laughter and tears.
                      In the sense? What was not? Are you just pretending to be a fool or are you trolling like that? I’ll ask you to answer this question!
                      Yes, just one R-1, which is a copy of the V-2, is enough to remember, and before R-7 there were at least 5 more pieces.
                    10. Octopus April 9 2020 19: 15 New
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                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Give a proof to the contrary.

                      Where was Arkhangelsk in 38-41 years can be found on Wikipedia.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      And why is the question for me, and not for Arkhangelsk?

                      You equate "was not convicted" and "was at large." Taubin, too, was not convicted; this did not stop him from being shot.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      What, the memory of the fish?

                      I still have a decent memory. With a fig, is the list of 200 people that the enemy of the people gave is the basis for the arrest of all of them? And if the enemy of the people Tupolev rewrote the phone book, then what?
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Maybe, maybe not.

                      No, you decide. Or friends of the people harmed the defense, or not.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      How so, you in America are few that do not dry.

                      Garbage is America's shame.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Tupolev refused only from testimony regarding espionage. This is what you brazenly kept silent!

                      And I do not consider recognition the queen of evidence.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      https://ss69100.livejournal.com/4019359.html

                      A certain Aizen Taicho knows better about airplanes than Tupolev.
                      not one purchased in 1935-36 in the USA, the model of aircraft in mass production by 1938 did not consist.

                      Everything is clear from Comrade. Taicho.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Are you aware of fascist Italy? There was democracy and both constitution and fascism.

                      From this statement it follows that you are not aware of the doctrine of fascism, nor even more about the CD. Like Comrade Lieutenant, of course.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Announce the entire list

                      Digging around again. Take chapter 29UK (although it, too, frankly, is peculiar) and paragraphs 58, yes compare.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      What side do the false notices relate to the right to issue money?

                      These memos - and there is non-cash money that the bank created from the air. The rules of those years allowed him to do this. At least the Grozny RCC.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      There is no doubt that in this phrase you are derogatory about the Korolevsky passion for business.

                      Korolev, as always, was fond of their not a state affair. The state wanted to crash, and Korolev wanted to go into space. And he was right, of course, in contrast to a crazy state.
                      His 300-ton rocket was suitable for space, and absolutely not suitable for gasping.

                      Yes, the traitor may be right, but the state may not.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      And the SEC did earlier and demonstrated in 1957, in principle, the first ICBM that could reach America

                      Seven
                      No
                      ICBMs.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Yangel not earlier than 1960 created his own ICBM. So get smart somewhere else.

                      In the 63rd R16U stood on the database. Royal 9A a year later and in a minimal amount.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      And what, she couldn’t hit your adored USA with a nuclear warhead?

                      Of course not, with such a start procedure, the number and size of launchers. Would cover without options. Guaranteed Response this system could not provide, only preventive strike, and then how lucky.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      I’ll ask you to answer this question!

                      What do you answer there? When the USSR put into service the R-11M, terrible trash, MGM-29 Sergeant was brewing in the dungeon near the enemies, and in the Fulda corridor there was MGM-5. Soviet counterpart MGM-29? Huh? Oka 9K714 80th year?
              2. Vladimir_2U April 9 2020 16: 14 New
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                Quote: Octopus
                Firstly, Aiki, should be given his due, did not seek to condemn everyone and everyone, especially the people who were useful to his country.
                Yeah, it’s not that Ike and dumb-snout comes out?
                Quote: Octopus
                Dwight Eisenhower, an even more stupidly snout creature than even Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev

                Quote: Octopus
                Here, as it were, questions did not arise for Eisenhower himself, in the 53rd year in the USA it was no longer so easy to carry out processes in the style of Comrade. VYSHINSKY.
                Is it really so? McCarthyism just blossomed with Ike. Do not Lala! And arms lobbying, too, flourished, but the Americans did not have enough space program to begin to develop.
                Quote: Octopus
                Of course not. You do not agree with the rehabilitation of these convicts or what?
                By the way, they did rehabilitation and partial rehabilitation, according to such an article, they were rehabilitated, and according to which they didn’t. And this is not to mention the almost continuous rehabilitation under Khrushchev, you called him stupid-snout, by the way.
                Quote: Octopus
                And why is this a question for the Queen in the 36th year, what military significance did the V-1 have?
                Pff, strange, it was you who mentioned the FAU-1 as an argument of the relevance of Korolev's work. Damn way argument.
                Quote: Octopus
                Who better than the prosecutor to know which weapons are applicable and which are not.
                Korolev is the head of the group of rocket-planes and cruise missiles. Me-163 flew in the 41st, V-1 - in the 42nd.

                Quote: Octopus
                Through the eyes of the operator. They are radio command.
                Are the eyes of the operator radio command? Joke!
                Quote: Octopus
                The people who wrote the indictment were illiterate. Not Korolev.
                I wrote about YOUR ignorance! Are you already able to read?
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                You are stupid on the occasion of FE and technical illiteracy is already covering some sort of nonsense.
                And I will remind you of what stupidity and ignorance YOUR consists of:
                Quote: Octopus
                The task of the control system on photocells is to distinguish the bright sky from the dark earth and provide the product with a relatively horizontal flight through the control of the planes. The distortion with the photocells was invented only because the Soviet industry did not master much of the normal way — the gyroscope.
                And you still do not understand the idiocy of this! Such an autopilot will simply not work at night, not in 36, for sure, and no one has applied such a scheme.
                Quote: Octopus
                Watch your tongue. Korolev did not engage in missiles, but in Kyrgyzstan. ZUR then, NYA, were not involved in the USSR at all, for impossibility and uselessness.
                Without even knowing about the development of missiles, to write about their uselessness is DIGNESS! And Korolev was precisely what was developing the missile defense, and it was in it that it was supposed to use FE, I wrote about this, are you blind or what?
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                And attention! FE in missile guidance! It was planned! Use! I was personally surprised to learn that the SEC was working on an anti-aircraft missile with guidance on the spotlight! And these works successfully failed. So the investigation may not have been very competent, but knew more about the case than you.

                In 1935, Sergey Korolev proposed the idea of ​​the 217 anti-aircraft missile, guided by a searchlight beam using photocells. Work on the projectile was carried out for some time until the development stage.

                Quote: Octopus
                Anschütz mastered, even for ships of at least 2 rank !.
                Try stuffing your Anschutz into a powder rocket.
                Firstly, the Anschütz gyrocompass is much more complicated and accurate than the Sperry gyrocompass, and mastering the Anschütz production is an indicator of the maturity of Soviet instrumentation, you remembered about Sperry, not understanding what it looks like, secondly the gyrocompass on a cruise missile, by the way a liquid This anti-aircraft missile was on a TT, it’s not needed, you need an autopilot, yes, it’s as light and cheap as possible, but much, much simpler than a gyrocompass.
                Quote: Octopus
                But the torpedo - it is big, heavy, it stands like a tank of that time. It is because of all these complex pieces. Doesn't fit your Aubrey.
                That is, you imagine that to control a "large, heavy" torpedo requires a large heavy Aubrey device? Well, according to this logic, the giant should be controlled by a giant five meters tall. This is your logic. And such a knowledge of technology, it is good that the steering machine does not obey such flawed logic. And the Aubrey device is quite.
                Quote: Octopus
                Yeah. Something like that, the Queen needs to be done for a disposable item.
                Korolev did not master the cruise missile, could not dock it with the autopilot, and this is a liquid missile.
                Quote: Octopus
                Controls are not his diocese!
                Exactly. However, it was the jamb with SU that the native authorities charged him with the review of the case.
                Do you always have a memory like a goldfish or when it is so profitable? But I will remind you, regardless of the reasons for your micro-memory:
                Quote: Octopus
                In 1936 year led the development of a powder winged torpedo; knowing in advance that the main parts of this torpedo - devices with photocells - for controlling a torpedo and pointing it at a target, cannot be manufactured by the central laboratory of wire communication,
                .
                Quote: Octopus
                You also recognized yourself as a troll.

                Do not understand. Are you against the official document of the NKVD or what?

                What is the official document of the NKVD, there is a little bit of it, you shoved almost the entire text of article 58.
                Quote: Octopus
                )))
                Quote: Octopus
                I would support both the arrest and the execution of Tupolev
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Why did you stuff such a piece of dough for?
                To make it harder for you to tell, for which Tupolev was actually imprisoned. For what is written, for that they planted. Terrorist, then.
                You have identified yourself as a troll with this recognition. Obfuscation instead of argumentation, this is trolling.
                Quote: Octopus
                On the contrary. Just the line with bad Stalin and good Russians is practically impossible to maintain.
                Russophobia is once again confirmed.
              3. Octopus April 9 2020 17: 28 New
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                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Yeah, it’s not that Ike and dumb-snout comes out?

                Aiki was a flashy smug boob. Aiki was not a vicious vengeful paranoid.
                In general, the importance of Aiki for the USSR is greatly underestimated, unlike Roosevelt. To the question "How can the existence of the USSR be justified before God?" lovers of the most delicious ice cream, in addition to any hope for working people there, from the specifics more often they will call:
                1. Victory Banner
                2. Sputnik and Gagarin.
                3. AK-47.
                4. T-34.
                Eisenhower personally had a direct relationship to all these points. Often determining.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                McCarthyism just blossomed with Ike.

                I already wrote about McCarthyism, find by search.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                And this is not to mention the almost continuous rehabilitation under Khrushchev, you called him dull-snout,

                Not for that. Nikita, for all his shortcomings, was a man. Bad man. Father and Genius were not human.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Pff, strange, it was you who mentioned the FAU-1 as an argument of the relevance of Korolev's work.

                Naturally. The Kyrgyz Republic was a popular topic; in the 30s, many people dealt with it. After 5 years she did not work, and after 25 she worked. Like atomic physics, for example.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Are the eyes of the operator radio command?

                Not the eyes, but the head. The horizontal is maintained with the help of the brain. Naturally, those who have it.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Without even knowing about the development of missiles, to write about their uselessness is DIGNESS!

                Wow, how clever. The topic of missiles appeared at the end of the war among the Germans - because of the mass raids, and among the Americans - because of the kamikaze. Prior to this, such a topic did not exist. In terms of how relevant development. And conversations yes, it is as much as you like.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Korolev precisely what developed the missile defense, and it was supposed to use PV in it, I wrote about this

                You never know what nonsense you wrote.
                In 1936, he led the development of a powder winged torpedo; knowing in advance that the main parts of this torpedo — devices with photocells — for controlling a torpedo and aiming it at a target cannot be manufactured by the central wire communication laboratory, Korolev, in order to load the institute with unnecessary work, intensively led the development of the missile part of this torpedo in 2 versions .

                Speech about a product 06/216.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                do you need a big heavy Aubrey device?

                A small and light Aubrey device is required, more precisely, a control system with a gyroscope. Unless, of course, you have a gyroscope that can be used on a powder rocket.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                I couldn’t dock it with the autopilot, and this rocket is liquid.

                Comrade investigator writes gunpowder.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                cannot be manufactured by the central laboratory of wire communication,

                Can’t he put it on it? This is not his diocese, his diocese is a glider. To coordinate the project as a whole, there is a management of the research institute and the customer.
                I will tell you more. If SU is not and never will be, this does not mean at all that aerodynamics, linkers, strengthists or dvigatelisty engage in useless work.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                What is the official document of the NKVD, there is a little bit of it

                It lists the articles of the prosecution. I specially painted them all for you, so that you would not tell me about the corrugation on the wing. Comrade Lieutenant does not write anything about the corrugation.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Russophobia is once again confirmed.

                I'm not going to argue with this, calm down already.
              4. Vladimir_2U April 9 2020 18: 20 New
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                0
                Quote: Octopus
                McCarthyism just blossomed with Ike.
                I already wrote about McCarthyism, find by search.
                Not in a dispute with me, do not seek me your fabrications throughout VO.
                Quote: Octopus
                Naturally. The Kyrgyz Republic was a popular topic; in the 30s, many people dealt with it. After 5 years she did not work, and after 25 she worked. Like atomic physics, for example
                And after 5 years there was a war, and several years of work, not just one SEC, by the way, but due to its fault, for whatever reason, it was merged and NOKR did not help either Germany, or even the USSR.
                Quote: Octopus
                Without even knowing about the development of missiles, to write about their uselessness is DIGNESS!
                Wow, how clever. The topic of missiles appeared at the end of the war among the Germans - because of the mass raids, and among the Americans - because of the kamikaze. Prior to this, such a topic did not exist.
                Well, yes, I repeat Without even knowing about the development of missiles, to write about their uselessness is DIGNESS! The planes before the war appeared, before the very thing, and the fact that they could be dropped from the bombs was discovered only on April 18, 1939, and the anti-aircraft artillery ensured the destruction of one shell at any height. You are either idiotic or a troll.
                7. Gunpowder cruise missiles 217. Direct development engineer MP Dryazgova Intended to defeat air moving targets from the ground. It was planned to carry out stabilization and control of missiles in flight using telemechanical devices, when flying missiles along a light beam from a searchlight directed at a target. The control system was to be developed by the Institute of Telemechanics, the missiles themselves were designed by the RNII. The missile was made in two versions, 271 / I and 217 / II:

                https://cont.ws/@yasakovai/593736
                Quote: Octopus
                Speech about a product 06/216.
                This rocket is liquid, and you, stubbornly disputing it, are either idiotic or a troll
                Quote: Octopus
                do you need a big heavy Aubrey device?
                A small and light Aubrey device is required, more precisely, a control system with a gyroscope
                Again the glancing quote, here is the complete one:
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                That is, you imagine that to control a "large, heavy" torpedo requires a large heavy Aubrey device? Well, according to this logic, the giant should be controlled by a giant five meters tall. This is your logic
                The fact that you have a foul manner of tearing quotes, I already understand. Do you understand that the Aubrey device is quite small and quite light, even its torpedo version.
                Quote: Octopus
                Comrade investigator writes gunpowder.
                The investigator’s comrade wasn’t in the eyes, he knew that the 217 rocket was powder, and that it had to be controlled with the help of PV from the ground.
                Quote: Octopus
                Isn’t that for him? This is not his diocese, his diocese is a glider. To coordinate the project as a whole, there is a management of the research institute and the customer.
                What do you remember, the leadership of the research institute remembered, but nothing that:
                Quote: Octopus
                Korolev is the head of the group of rocket-planes and cruise missiles.
                And the deputy Kleimenova? And he actually set himself tasks? And he answered for disrupting tasks.
                I don’t even know what to answer:
                Quote: Octopus
                I will tell you more. If SU is not and never will be, this does not mean at all that aerodynamics, linkers, strengthists or dvigatelisty engage in useless work.
                There will be no SU! Ie. you, like Korolev, do not see anything scary that all these people here will not give anything to the customer? Sorry, but this is idiocy, not Korolev, he would only have a rocket at least fly. This is your idiocy, well, in general there is no desire to argue idioticly, although if you are a troll, then another matter. To argue with the troll is already my stupidity. Are you a troll or an idiot? I ask for an answer.
                Quote: Octopus
                What is the official document of the NKVD, there is a little bit of it

                It lists the articles of the prosecution. I specially painted them all for you, so that you would not tell me about the corrugation on the wing. Comrade Lieutenant does not write anything about the corrugation.
                They are listed, yes, which you thought it necessary to list, such confidence, an idiot or a troll confidence, simply amazes me, like you know how to use a search alone, you did not consider it necessary to bring these points of charge:
                recognized the wrecking on the construction of the “DBA” aircraft, delays in the construction of stratospheric aircraft along DB-2, RD, VIT, DB-3, I-21, PB, SB, DMP;
                - admitted that he thwarted Gromov’s flight to establish a range, thwarted in 1935 the government’s planned flight of Levanevsky through the North Pole to America, and in 1937, a number of wrecking acts led to the death of the crew of Levanevsky’s plane while flying to America through the North Pole. In 1924 he was recruited by Morgulis for espionage in favor of France. While in Paris in 1935, he personally transmitted espionage information about fighter planes and light bombers to French Minister of Aviation Denin.
                At the interrogation on 23.11.38/XNUMX/XNUMX, Tupolev refused testimony regarding espionage.
                This is not to mention the fact that the prosecution doesn’t even take a few paragraphs, even in the simplest cases, and the devil knows how many are not laid out for free access. Sorry about the corrugation, I did not write about the corrugation on the wing, how did I know that the corrugation means nothing to you, except as a defect in the skin.
              5. Octopus April 9 2020 20: 08 New
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                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Not in dispute with me

                What went lazy people ...
                Quote: Liam
                Quote: svp67
                And you about "McCarthyism," have you heard?

                How many millions of Americans were shot or deported to mines in Alaska during the massive and terrible terror unleashed by Senator McCarthy?

                Quote: Octopus
                Quote: svp67
                And you about "McCarthyism," have you heard?

                And how can a senator unleash terror? What powers does he have for this?

                McCarthy is a heavy drinking parliamentary chatterbox. The culprit is Eisenhower. And not at all because McCarthy indulged. And because he himself was smeared with cooperation with the Councils on the ears and translated McCarthy’s activity in investigating the anti-American activities of Roosevelt, Truman and the State Department into a safe path for himself against Charlie Chaplin, gays and blacks.

                Eisenhower was not Charlie Chaplin, gay or black. Eisenhower was an incompetent fool, a coward, a liar and a traitor. Naturally, he tried to ensure that these last categories of the population did not suffer from McCarthy terror.

                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                NO KR helped neither Germany, nor even the USSR.

                Firstly, what does Korolev care about the war? Why on earth should he be interested in the international situation? Comrade Stalin, for example, should be interested in who is who, and he was trying to find 15 battleships just at that time, to fight with Britain. What did you say there, 120 thousand loss to the state?
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Well, yes, I repeat. Without even knowing about the development of missiles, to write about their uselessness is DIGNESS!

                You, so smart, were sorely missed.
                The theme of missiles became a priority not when the aircraft began to drop bombs, but when conventional air defense on fighters became ineffective. Prior to this, all these stories went through the inventions of various enthusiasts.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Powder Cruise Missiles 217

                Finally something useful, thanks. Yes, it seems that the 217th item was charged with the Queen, and his tricks with photocells on the 216th were irrelevant.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                This rocket is liquid, and you, stubbornly disputing it

                I quote the indictment if you notice. But you have found a more suitable option for the prosecution, that's good.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                And the deputy Kleimenova?

                He is not Kleimenov’s deputy in the 36th year.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                actually set itself tasks?

                You have divorced ideas from life. A work plan is a document probably signed by Kleimenov or one of his deputies. The head of the group can make proposals, no more.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Ie. you, like Korolev, do not see anything scary that all these people here will not give anything to the customer?

                Of course it's okay. Little of. Korolev spoke directly about this.
                Here
                http://epizodsspace.airbase.ru/bibl/pion-rt72/kryl-rak.html
                you can see the Royal understanding of rocket science as of the 35th year. Talking about the practical application of these ideas in the coming years is simply strange.
                The work that the Research Institute is engaged in in peacetime, you know, time does not have to give a military effect for 3 years. I have no questions for Kleimenov, did he approve a rocket without SU or would not approve a job.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                to quote these points of charge:

                The charges are articles of the Criminal Code, in this case paragraphs 58. What is the point in all this nonsense? The attack carried out by Tupolev - the destruction of the Lewandowski aircraft? In order to counter-revolution and restore the throne? Yes, that’s exactly what I meant by garbage.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                I didn’t write about corrugation on the wing,

                Well, not on the wing, so on the fuselage, the difference is great. Or where is it with you there?
              6. Vladimir_2U April 10 2020 06: 59 New
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                Quote: Octopus
                Not in dispute with me
                What went lazy people ...
                Besides the fact that you are either an idiot or a troll, you are also a very impudent type.
                Quote: Octopus
                NO KR helped neither Germany, nor even the USSR.
                Firstly, what does Korolev care about the war?
                You don’t know that the RNII was a defense institute, and Korolev had a military rank, and was sent to the reserve in the rank, in fact, general, but at the same time you carry what heresy "what is Korolev’s case before the war"? You are either idiotic if you do not know, and you carry or a troll if you know.
                Quote: Octopus
                he was just at that time trying to find 15 battleships, to fight with Britain.
                Before the war, several types of battleships were developed, only one was taken into construction, no more than four were laid, no more than your 15 were planned, for Four! fleet for 10 (ten) years. You are either an idiot or a troll.

                Quote: Octopus
                The theme of missiles became a priority not when planes began to drop bombs, but when conventional air defense on fighters became ineffective. Before that, all these stories went through lines of invention of various enthusiasts.
                Those. Korolev also played with your missiles for the gss account, but to hell with the money, in that case the time was running out, the work of the specialists was going nowhere, and do you have something against the sharashka? You are either an idiot or a troll.

                Quote: Octopus
                Yes, it seems that the 217th item was charged with the Queen, and his tricks with photocells on the 216th were irrelevant.

                No PV at 216 was required, and there were no tricks, it needed autopilot and some sort of flight stability, which was not there either. If you persist in FE in 216 missiles, then you are either an idiot or a troll.

                Quote: Octopus
                But you have found a more suitable option for the prosecution, that's good.
                Well then, I had to poke it with your nose three times already, and who are you after that? Right, or idiotic or troll.
                Quote: Octopus
                A work plan is a document probably signed by Kleimenov or one of his deputies. The head of the group can make proposals, no more.
                Immediately after the removal of the SEC from the post of deputy, the post of deputy director of the RNII was liquidated, and the head of the department remained the second after the director. A rare case when you have not shown yourself or not complete idiocy or troll.
                Quote: Octopus
                Ie. you, like Korolev, do not see anything scary that all these people here will not give anything to the customer?

                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                I will tell you more. If SU is not and never will be, this does not mean at all that aerodynamics, linkers, strengthists or dvigatelisty engage in useless work.
                There will be no SU! Ie. you, like Korolev, do not see anything scary that all these people here will not give anything to the customer? Sorry, but this is idiocy, not Korolev, he would only have a rocket at least fly

                Quote: Octopus
                Ie. you, like Korolev, do not see anything scary that all these people here will not give anything to the customer?
                Of course it's okay. Little of. Korolev spoke directly about this.
                Here
                It’s clear with Korolev, he didn’t care about the fact that the engine was liquid, it can be understood, people in love with the business are often blind. But to fail before 1938 over completely and knowingly worthless example is a crime. And you, if you do not understand this, are either idiotic or a troll.
                Quote: Octopus
                The work that the Research Institute is engaged in in peacetime, you know, time does not have to give a military effect for 3 years.
                Until 1938, the SEC fell through with KR 212, almost killed himself, and nearly killed with an airplane and people. Until 1938! The war in Spain, where the USSR fought against the Franicists, and more importantly, against the German Nazis, the war in China, at the very borders of the USSR, in general, with constant skirmishes directly on the border, the Sudeten crisis. To write that this is peacetime, this is the idiocy of pure water, you respectively are either idiotic or a troll.
                Quote: Octopus
                The charges are articles of the Criminal Code, in this case paragraphs 58. What is the point in all this nonsense? The attack carried out by Tupolev - the destruction of the Lewandowski aircraft? In order to counter-revolution and restore the throne? Yes, that’s exactly what I meant by garbage.
                The fact that you brazenly threw out important points of accusation that even anti-advisers did not dare to throw out, just because you considered them garbage, is this a sign of outright rudeness and idiocy. You are either a brazen idiot or no less brazen troll.

                Quote: Octopus
                I didn’t write about corrugation on the wing,
                Well, not on the wing, so on the fuselage, the difference is great. Or where is it with you there?
                The second case, when you behave at least not like a complete idiot or a troll. Just like an unrecognizable balabol, corrugation in the case of Tupolev, this is corrugated aircraft skin! And in the case of the Tupolev all-metal aircraft, this corrugation was everywhere, even the record ANTs were with corrugated lining, the first one was for sure, just the corrugation was covered with percale and some kind of filler. And Tupolev held on to this corrugation to the last and this is one of the motives for his sabotage of aircraft of other designers.
              7. Vladimir_2U April 10 2020 06: 59 New
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                Quote: Octopus
                Where was Arkhangelsk in 38-41 years can be found on Wikipedia.
                Where is it written that he was in OKB-29 in prison? Why didn’t they place a fragment of text, were ashamed? Well, at least here you have not shown yourself to be idiotic, so by a troll cub.
                Quote: Octopus
                Taubin, too, was not convicted; this did not stop him from being shot.
                Taubin was convicted by the Special Conference of the NKVD, according to the laws of wartime. If you did not know this, then you are a balabol; if you knew, then you are a liar and a troll.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                What if the enemy of the people of Tupolev, with the aim of destroying the Soviet aircraft industry and on the instructions of the French intelligence, slandered honest people, real communists?
                What, the memory of the fish?

                Quote: Octopus
                What, the memory of the fish?
                I still have a decent memory. With a fig, is the list of 200 people that the enemy of the people gave is the basis for the arrest of all of them? And if the enemy of the people Tupolev rewrote the phone book, then what?
                What is such a decent memory?
                slandered honest people, real communists
                these are your words! Although the troll may have decent memory, it’s a pity to disconnect it when necessary.
                Quote: Octopus
                A certain Aizen Taicho knows better about airplanes than Tupolev.
                not one purchased in 1935-36 in the USA, the model of aircraft in mass production by 1938 did not consist.
                Everything is clear from Comrade. Taicho.

                And what is it, you sent me to Vicki repeatedly, and many have complaints about the competence of Wiki articles. Well, okay, with this Wiki, that you didn’t like the lack of mass production in 1938 of the aircraft that you bought already in 1936? It is not true? Where is the rebuttal? Balabstvo only, trollchachye.

                Quote: Octopus
                Are you aware of fascist Italy? There was democracy and both constitution and fascism.

                From this statement it follows that you are not aware of the doctrine of fascism, nor even more about the CD
                Well, of course, how do I know about constitutional democrats and the law "about everything else." Italy has shown that a monarchy can exist with the actual government of the country by a dictator and the formal presence of the Constitution. What is this system called? It is clear that if it occurred to you, why not, you will not show it. You are a liar and a troll, well, or an idiot.
                Quote: Octopus
                Announce the entire list


                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                I consider it rubbish to write down most of the clauses of article 58 in crimes against the constitutional system and the state.
                Announce the entire list, and it’s very vague!
                Digging around again. Take chapter 29UK (although it, too, frankly, is peculiar) and paragraphs 58, yes compare.
                Well, of course, don’t announce the list of items that you consider garbage, you don’t want to poke your nose at your idiocy, you’re not an idiot, but a troll, I guess.

                Quote: Octopus
                What side do the false notices relate to the right to issue money?

                These memos are non-cash money that the bank created from the air. The rules of those years allowed him to do this. At least the Grozny RCC.
                Without even delving into it, it’s clear that comparing false advice notes with a permission to issue, which was not, by the way, hello to the boobies, is a complete idiocy. And once again, you are either an idiot or a troll.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                It’s pretty good. While Korolev was playing with his companions, the SS men fired their tactical missiles throughout the GDR.
                There is no doubt that in this phrase you are derogatory about the Korolevsky passion for business.

                Quote: Octopus
                Korolev, as always, was fond of his own business, not a state one. The state wanted to crash, and Korolev wanted to go into space. And he was right, of course, in contrast to a crazy state.
                His 300-ton rocket was suitable for space, and absolutely not suitable for gasping.
                Well, it’s directly obvious that you are either an idiot or a troll. And comments are not needed.
                Quote: Octopus
                Seven
                No
                ICBMs.
                Wiki, by the way:
                R-7 (expand. "Seven"; GRAU index - 8K71) - a two-stage intercontinental ballistic missile with a detachable warhead weighing 3 tons and a flight range of 8 thousand km. The first intercontinental ballistic missile in the world, successfully tested and delivered a warhead to intercontinental range (August 21, 1957). If you deny it, yes with aplomb, you are either idiotic or a troll.
                Quote: Octopus
                Yangel not earlier than 1960 created his own ICBM. So get smart somewhere else.

                In the 63rd R16U stood on the database. Royal 9A a year later and in a minimal amount.
                What did you bring this to, be smart? Or 63 a year before your 60th. has arrived? Who you are after this is correct, either idiotic or a troll.
                Quote: Octopus
                And what, she couldn’t hit your adored USA with a nuclear warhead?
                Of course not, with such a start procedure, the number and size of launchers. Would cover without options. This system could not provide a guaranteed answer, only a preemptive strike, and then how lucky.
                You probably imagine that you didn’t stand on the R-7 database? What didn’t allow you to look into the wiki, idiocy?
                In addition, the rocket could be in the charged state for no more than 30 days
                Even a ten-day constant readiness for launch means that at least two missiles simultaneously could immediately go to America. With almost three megaton warheads, without the possibility of interception, with a half-hour flight time. So you persist in denying this, either idiotic or a troll.
                Quote: Octopus
                I’ll ask you to answer this question!
                What do you answer there? When the USSR put into service the R-11M, terrible trash, MGM-29 Sergeant was brewing in the dungeon near the enemies, and in the Fulda corridor there was MGM-5. Soviet counterpart MGM-29? Huh? Oka 9K714 80th year?
                No, well, what an audacity, just throw out the question itself!
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Are you just pretending to be a fool or are you trolling like that? I’ll ask you to answer this question!
                That was the question, oh, where is the answer? Are you pretending to be a fool or a troll? Although even if you sort the answer type, then everything is clear.
                When the USSR put into service the R-11M, terrible trash, MGM-29 Sergeant was brewing in the dungeon near the enemies, and MGM-5 was in the Fulda corridor. Soviet counterpart MGM-29? Huh? Oka 9K714 80th year?
                What? Compare rockets with a gap in adoption at the age of 7 for a non-nuclear warhead and in the 4th nuclear war, 1955 and 1958 against 1962? And where is 8K14. 9K72 [SS-1C. SCUD B]? Also adopted in 1962, by the way. Where is Mars, Moon? Where is all this? Why didn't you bring it?
                MGM-29? Huh? Oka 9K714 80th year
                And what is it? There was no solid fuel in the USSR with similar characteristics, so liquid rockets were made until it appeared. What didn’t you understand? That you are idiotic or a troll?
              8. Octopus April 11 2020 01: 28 New
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                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Where is it written that he was in OKB-29 in prison?

                You have a phrase from which it was released in 1941. may cause a discussion. I do not have.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Taubin was convicted by the Special Conference of the NKVD,

                Not convicted, but shot by decision of the NKVD Beria in agreement with the USSR prosecutor Comrade Bochkov (a wonderful prosecutor, before that - the head of the prison department of the NKVD, after that - head of the department of the convoy troops of the NKVD). This is called "administratively." The Soviet Themis is distinguished from the bourgeois by its exceptionally light attitude to all paperwork.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                these are your words!

                I understand you correctly that if someone wrote a list of opera to a friend of the opera, I don’t know, French spies on 12 sheets, which included, I don’t know, you, is this sufficient reason for your arrest and sufficient proof of your guilt?

                Your desire to remove the blame from the Chekists and put all of it on the bespectacled people would be touching. If it weren’t about the bloody crap in which your grandparents lived. Even if they themselves worked in this glorious organization.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                And what is it, you sent me to Vicki repeatedly

                And what does Vika have to do with it? 1. Vika is not ZhZshechka anonymous. 2. Vika is the beginning of a conversation. You can refute it - refute it. But relying on sources that are already more serious than vetch.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                did you like the lack of mass production in 1938 of the aircraft that you bought already in 1936? It is not true?

                And in what crazy world in the USSR, American planes will suddenly start to be produced in a year or two, if in the USSR there is nothing at all for their production, starting with fasteners of American standard sizes? For 5 years, Douglas barely pulled out, which was aging out more slowly than military vehicles. Why the hell the USSR four-engine amphibian, the Soviet Kawanishi H6K, not a question for Tupolev. See "15 battleships."
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Wiki, by the way:
                R-7 (expand "seven"; GRAU index - 8K71) - two-stage intercontinental ballistic missile

                Well, the Soviet government gave this product as an ICBM, and the encyclopedia is not a place for discussion.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                You brought it to what

                Moreover, the retaliatory strike on the territory of the United States from its territory of the USSR could be made only in the 63rd. Prior to this - either in Europe, or, with luck, a submarine with RSD will break through.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                DB R-7 was not charged?

                She did not stand at all, except in the case of grandiose riffraffs. She lay in the assembly shop.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Even a ten-day constant readiness for launch means that at least two missiles simultaneously could immediately go to America. WITH

                In the case of R-7, this means that the USSR is not capable of retaliation, only of a preventive one. Never, neither before nor after, a massive blow to the USSR was such a rational decision. God of the USSR Eisenhower did not go - the lousy could end.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                7 years for a non-nuclear warhead

                Who cares about a non-nuclear warhead with such a QUO?

                Speaking of useless, wrecking weapons.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                1955 and 1958 vs 1962?

                In the 55th year, the MGM-5 was already in combat units in Europe.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                And where is 8K14. 9K72 [SS-1C. SCUD B]? Also adopted in 1962, by the way. Where is Mars, Moon?

                Funny, but really an analogue of the sergeant - 9K79 Point - you missed.

                In future. All this in the future.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                And what is it? There was no solid fuel in the USSR with similar characteristics

                Nothing. Poverty is not a vice. Only here I would hold on to the theme of the excellent Soviet OTR / RMD, after all.
              9. Vladimir_2U April 11 2020 06: 39 New
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                Oh, but didn’t I write to you that I consider you either an idiot or a troll? Sorry, I forgot to write again: I consider you either an idiot or a troll! And your magic rating says a lot. And it is well known that talking with such characters is simply stupid.
          2. Octopus April 11 2020 00: 11 New
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            Well, sir
            Firstly, you are completely in vain trying to offend me.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            That was the question

            We are not in the tinder, I am not going to discuss myself with you personally.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Korolev had a military rank

            At that moment, no.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            and was sent to stock

            The army doesn’t need it - it means it’s not needed.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            took only one

            Only one type, Soviet Yamato.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            laid no more than four

            And you need to lay all 15 at the same time?
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            not more than your 15, on Four! fleet for 10 (ten) years

            For 10 years, from the end of the "battleship holidays" to the end of WWII, Britain and the USA together, major maritime powers, built no more than your 15 LK. Of these, only 4 are close to pr 23, the rest are significantly weaker.
            Comrade is especially good. Stalin guessed with the timing. "Soviet Russia" was laid down a month after the surrender of France. It's time to build battleships, what could go wrong?
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Those. Korolev also played with your missile launcher for your gss account, but to hell with money, in that case the time passed, the work of specialists went nowhere,

            The work of specialists went to the Soviet cosmonautics of the 50s. The customer does not like the Soviet cosmonautics of the 50s, but they like the NURSs for the future war (which, to be honest, were done very poorly) - he takes the institute's work plan and crosses out all that is superfluous.
            Let me remind you that when the old leadership was shot and informers were put in its place, the situation with the NURSs did not improve.
            More than 150 rocket engines of various types and about 80 jet aircraft were developed in the USSR before World War II. But an impressive number of those and others did not develop into proper quality. Only the above RS-82, RS-132 and one of the subsequent samples of the M-13 powder propellant projectiles passed the full test cycle, they were only taken into service. Of the rest of the list of engines, rockets and jet propelled vehicles, the majority of the tests [we are talking about landfill, not bench tests] were not presented at all and remained only in models or in projects on paper. The same part that was subjected to flight tests, showed, to put it mildly, well, very modest results. And to be completely fundamental, these very so-called tests themselves, in the full sense of the word, were not. And they were only experimental launches, the main purpose of which was to get answers to questions: will this or that newly created construction take off or not take off, and if it takes off, how far will it fly away?

            Without exception, all work on aircraft jet engines designed and executed in specific forms under the direction of Sergey Pavlovich Korolev was completed either as unpromising or not to achieve the calculated values. None of the products during the test, and especially those on which attempts were made to organize a control system, showed a stable flight or acceptable reliability. None of his aircraft was adopted by the Red Army.

            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            No PV at 216 was required, and there were no tricks,

            There were just some tricks. Pervushin A.I., Empire of Sergey Korolev, S. 62
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            the post of deputy director of the RNII liquidated

            The post of deputy director of the RNII was liquidated together with Comrade. Langemak.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            But to fail before 1938 over a completely and obviously worthless model

            As mentioned above, almost everything that the organization was engaged in was worthless crafts (but these crafts were seeds. The main harm to the Red Army was done by the RS-82 and RS-132, our legendary Katyusha). Just like almost everything else that was done before the arms war. But this is absolutely no reason to make complaints to the engineers.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            To write that this is a peaceful time,

            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            The war in Spain, where the USSR fought against the Franicists, and more importantly, against the German Nazis, the war in China, at the very borders of the USSR, in general, with constant skirmishes directly on the border, the Sudeten crisis.

            To any of the above, the USSR, according to Comrade. Litvinov, had no relationship. The first official conflict is Lake. Hassan, August 38th. In any case, the People’s Commissariat of Heavy Industry doesn’t give a damn about all these stories. They are engaged in other drug commissariats.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            The fact that you brazenly threw out important points of accusation

            I have repeatedly pointed out your sad level of legal awareness. Tupolev was accused of (simplifying):
            With the aim of assassinating the main political or economic gains of the proletarian revolution
            1. Spied.
            2. Undermined industry, trade and transport (sabotage).
            3. Destroyed transport (terrorism) undermining, arson and other means.
            4. Participated in the organization of all this disgrace (this is a separate charge).

            Exactly this - Indictment. The part where articles of the Criminal Code are indicated.

            By the way, above I incorrectly painted the points on which Tupolev was accused. I took the numbering of points of the 26th year, in the 30th another edition acted.

            Further comrade Esipenko only sets out the plot of the case:
            Under paragraph 1, he handed over the blueprints to the French Minister of Aviation (he himself admitted the bastard, but handed it back).
            According to paragraph 2, I damaged Soviet industry by disrupting the construction of stratospheric aircraft (I myself admitted to it) (stratospheric aircraft were still missing from the USSR of the 30s with its motors. What, say, claims to useless missiles?)
            Under item 3, I ruined Levanevsky (he himself, a bastard, admitted).
            According to paragraph 4. I scored pests in TsAGI (and who else?).

            Absolutely everyone who was involved in this and similar examples of “justice” deserved a place near the wall. Not Kremlin.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Tupolev, this corrugation was everywhere, even the record ANTs were with corrugated lining,

            And what is the tragedy? The SB of the 34th year is no longer a Tupolev plane? Mid-40s aircraft with plywood cladding Do you like more?
          3. Vladimir_2U April 11 2020 06: 39 New
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            Oh, but didn’t I write to you that I consider you either an idiot or a troll? Sorry, I forgot to write again: I consider you either an idiot or a troll! And your magic rating says a lot. And it is well known that talking with such characters is simply stupid.
          4. Vladimir_2U April 11 2020 06: 48 New
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            And yes, I haven’t read your comments, see my comment above. laughing
  • Sahalinets April 6 2020 23: 43 New
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    And let's plant you specifically? You will finally begin to work as it should ... What, do not want to?
    1. Vladimir_2U April 7 2020 03: 34 New
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      Quote: Sahalinets
      And let's plant you specifically? You will finally begin to work as it should ...
      This is a call! This is an argument! Well, let's, at least to begin with, collect the “troika” with the powers. Or you can file an application with the prosecutor’s office, some department "E". Although it is better to disassemble the garbage in your head.
  • fk7777777 April 6 2020 06: 25 New
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    Not only the NKVD, because they were engaged in denunciations, slander, they simply drove around the corner, these are “people” who were nearby. This is how it is now, the kid shot 8 x freaks and what's next? ...
    1. Avior April 7 2020 06: 57 New
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      There is a big difference between denunciations and reaction to them.
      A denunciation is a piece of paper, and there is no harm from it, even the benefits are there, you can wipe it until a concrete decision has been made on it. And there are questions to those who made these decisions without understanding
  • DMB 75 April 6 2020 06: 04 New
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    Who was the chief designer ... Why to single out one, the whole team, from designers to ordinary workers involved in the creation of the legend ... It was the collective mind that created the glorious tank, the Stalin prize was not the only one for it, after all, the person received .. All and thank them for the Victory tank.
  • fk7777777 April 6 2020 06: 22 New
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    Now, if not for these people, if not for their willpower? Now, if they would say oh, “bros”, there will be carriages sheathed in tin with fuseys for you. If you took and did nothing ,? What then? Was it with the country? Why there is no showdown, why the descendants of these scumbags, who were engaged in slander, wrote denunciations do not sit in prison? Yes, the people, as he was a bastard, remained rotten, they could only fall stupid and talented, they did not have to blame everything on Stalin, he did not write denunciations, he did not slander and lie, he was engaged in slander. And he did not sign the execution lists. Most of them are not people, but rabble bastards, freaks, and mental disabilities.
    1. John22 April 6 2020 11: 14 New
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      The Stalinist system created an atmosphere of general suspicion and encouraged denunciations - this time. And the same system, destroying specialists and putting mediocrity and toadies to command posts, justified its mistakes by the subversive activities of the enemies of the people. And denunciations are the results of the system. If earlier a neighbor yelled at another neighbor that his chicken in his garden had torn a garden, now (in the current situation in the country) he wrote a denunciation to the NKVD that his neighbor served Kolchak or Dinikin. A neighbor immediately, without trial, was taken away forever. And now, already, denunciations were scribbling at him. But Stalin is not to blame. The system created by him is to blame.
      1. AUL
        AUL April 6 2020 12: 41 New
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        There was such a sad joke of those times:
        Bring a new convict into the chamber. They ask him - and for what they took you?
        - Yes, for laziness!
        - What, did it work poorly?
        - No, it worked fine. At the end of the day, we had one cupcake told a political joke, everyone ran to knock right away, and I was too lazy, I thought - in the morning I would snitch. And they took me in the evening ...
      2. Vladimir_2U April 6 2020 16: 05 New
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        Quote: John22
        And the same system, destroying specialists and putting mediocrity and toadies to command posts, justified its mistakes by the subversive activities of the enemies of the people.
        Yes, that’s why they won the Great Patriotic War, and built a lot of excellent weapons, and created nuclear weapons, all because the experts were destroyed, and mediocrity and sneaky reigned. Logics!
  • I read and read a lot about tanks (tank building), but only once came across an article of similar content. As a Soviet man, I got used to the thesis of genius Koshkin. But genius can be not only a designer, but also an organizer))) Read interesting.
    1. Vladimir_2U April 6 2020 07: 43 New
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      Honestly, for a long time I have not considered the T-34 to be a genius tank directly, all the same, BT-shny roots have affected, all these springs inside the case, the tower is over-compressed, the side height is considerable. That T-44 and especially T-54/55 is yes! And it’s a pity that they did not develop the T-12/24, but it looks even more like a modern tank than the T-34-76! BT is a real wrecking, in my opinion, the T-26 had at least a proven production technology.
      1. Well, let me disagree ... The listed models have a different class and were created for different concepts.
        Whole monographs have been written about the flaws of T34. They are famous and no one denies them. But, you see, without thirty-four there would not be 44!)))
        And the indicated t24 was also not ideal. The mistake of longline armament was proved by the Americans with the "grand". And up to 34 there was no serial anti-ballistic reservation)
        1. Vladimir_2U April 6 2020 08: 37 New
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          Quote: Leader of the Redskins
          The listed models have a different class and were created for different concepts
          T-34, 44 and 54/55 are all medium tanks, and for one application.
          Quote: Leader of the Redskins
          And the indicated t24 was also not ideal. The error of longline weapons proved the Americans with the "grand"
          He was not an ideal, but the layout is closer to modern cars than BT. You are mistaken, the T-24 does not closely resemble the M-3 Grant / Lee, they had the main gun in the sponson, unlike the T-24, in which the gun was in the tower, as it should, and the machine-gun turret is such a DUBM in the pre-war manner, which is replaced by the commander’s time to spit. )))
          By the way, I found a photo that I never saw, and which shows the significant modernization potential of the T-24:
          1. I had in mind the different classes of bt and t34. Light and medium.
            The Grand was a three-tiered arrangement. In fact, also in two towers, submachine guns.
            But in addition, the T24 has an archaic suspension and valve body. It would take a long time to bring it to mind and, I think, would reach the level of Japanese tanks. Also rivets and external spring suspension)))
            1. Vladimir_2U April 6 2020 09: 02 New
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              Quote: Leader of the Redskins
              I had in mind the different classes of bt and t34. Light and medium.
              All the more ambiguous is the creation of a medium tank based on light solutions.
              Quote: Leader of the Redskins
              The Grand was a three-tiered arrangement. In fact, also in two towers, submachine guns.
              You seem to poorly understand the main claim to the M3 Lee, the turrets had to be cumbersome due to the fact that the main 76 mm gun was in the sponson, actually in the tank’s body, and by the way in the English version, which Grant refused the third tier, but the second, tower, gun had to be left, due to the archaic location of the main gun.
              Quote: Leader of the Redskins
              But in addition, the T24 has an archaic suspension and valve body
              Well, you still require a Po-2 jet engine. )) Year of creation of the T-24, between us, 1930-31. And note, Merkava, MK 1 for sure, has an external spring suspension ...
            2. svp67 April 6 2020 14: 06 New
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              Quote: Leader of the Redskins
              I had in mind the different classes of bt and t34. Light and medium.
              Light, medium it’s all so arbitrary, especially since this qualification appeared later. And so, these tanks were similar in purpose, namely they were created as tanks of mechanized units, the British called them "cruising". That's what you always have to proceed from, destination. Therefore, it makes no sense to compare the T-34 and the Tiger, but it makes sense to compare the T-34 and the Panther ...
            3. John22 April 6 2020 15: 58 New
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              BT-2 and BT-5 also had riveted hulls and towers. But later they began to put welded towers. BT-7 was already welded. Those. there is an evolution of production. So in everything.
        2. John22 April 6 2020 11: 26 New
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          T-24 was the first independent development in the USSR. Gradually modifying and exploiting it - erroneous decisions would disappear. And the accumulated experience would be used in new designs. As is the case with HF. But they started with the QMS and the T-100.
          1. svp67 April 6 2020 14: 10 New
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            Quote: John22
            erroneous decisions would disappear.

            And how long would it take? And did the USSR have it? I think the path to creating my tank industry, chosen by the leadership of the USSR, is correct. We bought other people's good developments, managed to learn and repeat them at their plants, to train workers, engineers and designers on them, and then begin to first upgrade them and then create new designs
            1. Moreover, the British sold us what they themselves were not good. Yes, and the Americans contracted Christy with a stick in the wheel.
              Our designers were able to modernize the equipment, remake it to their requirements and already at these developments to create samples that meet the time. Indeed, you must admit that the two tower T26 model of 1931 is very different from the latest modifications!
              1. svp67 April 6 2020 15: 17 New
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                Quote: Leader of the Redskins
                Moreover, the British sold us what they themselves were not good.

                I do not agree here. Vickers - 6 tons, was very good, at that time, in many ways.
                Quote: Leader of the Redskins
                Yes, and the Americans contracted Christy with a stick in the wheel.

                It is all about the familiar word sanctions. The USSR at that time was under the most severe sanctions of the United States, and yet the tanks were delivered fully loaded, including with weapons, there are acceptance acts, with an exact description of the delivery ...
                Quote: Leader of the Redskins
                Indeed, you must admit that the two tower T26 model of 1931 is very different from the latest modifications!

                Yes, he was different, but he was a very good car, in its class - a "trench broom",
                1. Then I will insert five cents. The fact that Vickers 6 tons is not a bad tank was seen by many, but not Her Majesty's army. The British did not accept it, but they exported it to us, Poles and other countries with pleasure.
                  1. svp67 April 6 2020 16: 25 New
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                    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
                    but not Her Majesty's army

                    They, as we now simply did not have the proper funding to buy these tanks to replace the “iron” that was done during the years of WWII
              2. Vladimir_2U April 6 2020 15: 52 New
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                Quote: Leader of the Redskins
                two tower T26 model 1931
                The British had a normal turret cannon tank at the time of purchase, we just didn’t have a well-developed tank cannon, as far as I remember, we did not consider 37 mm with a shoulder rest as such.
            2. Vladimir_2U April 6 2020 15: 50 New
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              Quote: svp67
              And how long would it take? And did the USSR have it
              T-24 in the year 30 took, T-12, respectively, earlier.
              Quote: svp67
              We bought other people's good developments, managed to learn and repeat them in their factories
              If Vickers (prototype T-26) is a really proven machine with advanced technology, then Christy is a crude semi-model, moreover, a dead end, gobbling up a bunch of resources and time and, by and large, descended from the scene even before World War II.
          2. Vladimir_2U April 6 2020 16: 01 New
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            Quote: John22
            T-24 was the first independent development in the USSR. Gradually modifying and exploiting it - erroneous decisions would disappear
            Not quite so, because the T-24 based on the T-12 was created, and before it there were different BTT models. And the most interesting, it is closest to the modern understanding of the tank, judge, a single MTO, one tower with the main gun, three towers. It remains only to change the machine-gun turret to the commander’s one, accordingly changing the responsibilities of the towers, it’s a little more rational to arrange the frontal part and a decent medium tank is ready! The fact that already in its original form the T-24 succumbed well to modernization can be seen from the photo that I quoted above.
        3. ser56 April 8 2020 20: 51 New
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          Quote: Leader of the Redskins
          The mistake of longline armament was proved by the Americans with the "grand".

          look at the T-90m - machine guns also stand ... hi
  • bar
    bar April 6 2020 08: 08 New
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    It should be noted that to develop a breakthrough design of the tank, a design genius was needed, but Koshkin was not.

    Phew, what an arrogant stupidity. I did not read further.
    Who gave you the right to judge the size of a genius? Do you have a special ruler for measuring genius? If you did not know, then the main constructor is first of all head design team, not a loner inventor. And as a leader, Koshkin proved himself fully, devoted himself completely to the development, promotion and production of a new tank, and put his life into it. It is a shame from a well-fed and prosperous future going to dirty such a person.
  • Jurkovs April 6 2020 08: 42 New
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    So who invented the wheel?
  • Amateur April 6 2020 08: 45 New
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    I venture to incur the wrath of VO subscribers without denying the prominent role of the T-34 tanks in the Victory in the Second World War, but nonetheless from the bell tower of the 21st century:
    1. The inclined shape of the frontal armor and turret was tested on the BT-7.


    2. Instead of an advanced torsion bar suspension, the outdated "Christie" candle suspension was used, which occupied almost half of the reserved tank volume.
    In connection with the project for the "large" modernization of the T-34 tank in the USSR, the question of the development of the suspension was raised as early as September 1940. On November 19, 1940, the resolution of the Defense Committee No. 428 obliged the NKSM and the People’s Commissariat of Defense of the USSR to submit proposals on January 1, 1941, on the transition to the production of T-34 tanks with a new chassis with torsion bar suspension. (Wiki)

    3. The frontal sheet of the tank was weakened by the “holes” of the mechanical drive hatch and the machine gun. And if the hatch is a necessary measure because of Christie’s suspension (there was nowhere to put the driver’s arm due to the tower pushed forward), then the hole of the machine gun is why not wrecking?
    4. Diesel B-2. It was used on the BT-7M and all other new tanks of that time.
    Conclusion: The designers created a tank with 45 mm of armor, transferring to it all both the shortcomings and rational decisions of the BT tanks, without thinking at all why they were doing this. As a result, the tank was redone throughout the war. T-34 40 years and T-34-85 44 years - very different tanks.
    1. Vladimir_2U April 6 2020 09: 07 New
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      Quote: Amateur
      Instead of advanced torsion bar suspension
      Too, at the time of the development of the T-34, this suspension was advanced, we only started using it on HF, if I'm not mistaken. For the rest, I basically agree. )))
      1. svp67 April 6 2020 15: 20 New
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        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        this suspension was advanced, we only started using it on HF, if I'm not mistaken

        On the T-50, moreover, they decided to install it on the T-34M
        1. Vladimir_2U April 6 2020 15: 30 New
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          Quote: svp67
          On the T-50, not only on the T-34M
          That the one that this one later wasn’t even A-32, later the T-34s were developed, especially the T-34M))). I’m not sure, but it seemed that at first there were big problems with the torsion bars (their calculation), and they were installed on the HF (more precisely, QMS) with excessive "power", and only after gaining experience and improving calculation methods, they took up the torsion bars for medium and light cars.
          1. svp67 April 6 2020 16: 26 New
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            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            I’m not sure, but it seemed that at first there were big problems with the torsion bars (their calculation), and they were put on the HF (more precisely, QMS) with excessive "power",

            I won’t be surprised, and at least in some ways the HF was super reliable
    2. lucul April 6 2020 10: 23 New
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      The frontal sheet of the tank was weakened by the “holes” of the mechanical drive hatch and the machine gun. And if the hatch is a necessary measure because of Christie’s suspension (there was nowhere to put the driver’s arm due to the tower pushed forward), then the hole of the machine gun is why not wrecking?

      You read the German memories of the T-34 in 1941. There is quiet horror - only an 88mm caliber anti-aircraft gun or old 150mm howitzers could penetrate a tank. Ordinary infantry anti-tank guns did not penetrate his frontal armor. It was then that the sub-calibers and the 88mm tank guns appeared. But in 1941 the frontal armor on the T-34 was a miracle as good.
      It is a pity that the lack of normal tank radios and the gearbox, which constantly jammed / wedged in second gear, and depriving the tank of the maneuverability it had put, spoiled the oil painting ....
      1. Alexey RA April 6 2020 16: 04 New
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        Quote: lucul
        You read the German memories of the T-34 in 1941. There is quiet horror - only an 88mm caliber anti-aircraft gun or old 150mm howitzers could penetrate a tank. Ordinary infantry anti-tank guns did not penetrate his frontal armor.

        It's just that those who knocked out the T-34 without any problems did not leave such memories: they knocked out and drove on. smile
        In fact, taking into account the Germans' love for firing aboard, with the competent construction of the T-34 anti-tank missile, there were no problems for the Germans.
        50-mm anti-tank gun PaK.38, ordinary armor-piercing:
        The 75-mm sheet normal showed the back strength limit of 700 m, the through penetration limit of 400 m. That is, starting from a distance of 700 m and closer PaK.38 can penetrate unshielded HF armor, with 400 m it is guaranteed to break through.
        The 45-mm sheet along the normal showed the through penetration limit of 1500 m, at an angle of 30 degrees to the normal 1300 m.
        That is, PaK.38 confidently hits the T-34 in the side and the tower at any real combat distance.

        37-mm anti-tank gun PaK.36, ordinary armor-piercing:
        45-mm sheet along the normal showed the limit of the durability of 700 meters - that is, starting with 700 meters, a “beater” can dig through the side and the T-34 tower.
        © D. Shein
        Quote: lucul
        It is a pity that the lack of normal tank radios and the gearbox, which constantly jammed / wedged in second gear, and depriving the tank of the maneuverability it had put, spoiled the oil painting ....

        The gearbox did not jam - just shifting gears to the T-34 was dangerous. Firstly, when shifting gears, the tank slowed down to a stop. And secondly, as the Kubinka experts wrote, gear shifting is dangerous. So the driver entered the second - and forward, at 12-14 km / h. And no maneuver of speed. However, the driver didn’t have enough without this activity - he still had to work with leverage with an effort of 35 kg.
    3. Octopus April 6 2020 11: 15 New
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      Everything is more or less true, except
      Quote: Amateur
      then a course machine gun hole - why not wrecking?

      This is the logic of WOT. In those years, it was believed that a machine gun was needed.
      Quote: Amateur
      Instead of an advanced torsion bar suspension, the outdated "Christie" candle suspension was used, which occupied almost half of the reserved tank volume.

      Kharkov made a car for himself, he had no experience in torsion bars. A-32 was already a project with an extreme degree of novelty, and even a new suspension could finally bury him. With the afterthought, it was obvious that the best solution at that time for the first half of the 40s was trolleys, but this is the way of Leningraders, and it was Leningraders who went to torsion bars, perhaps prematurely.
      Quote: Amateur
      As a result, the tank was redone throughout the war.

      T-34 brought to mind 5 years. Unfortunately, 5 war years. Later, already in peacetime, the T-54 took the same amount of time.
      1. Amateur April 7 2020 07: 58 New
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        extreme novelty project

        What is its extremeness. What is fundamentally new compared to the tanks existing at that time? (In addition to post-war propaganda) ~ 60000 T-34s, including 1066 (Wiki) on 22,06,1941. How many of them survived until the end of the war?
        1. Octopus April 7 2020 09: 57 New
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          Quote: Amateur
          What is its extremeness. What is fundamentally new compared to the tanks existing at that time?

          Extreme novelty for Kharkov. Compared to the BT-7, almost everything is new there, including weight and concept.
          1. Amateur April 7 2020 19: 10 New
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            Extreme novelty for Kharkov. Compared to the BT-7, almost everything is new there, including weight and concept.

            And for Anadyr in Chukotka, probably still a fundamentally new one. Kharkov Tractor was the base Soviet tank factory. So it was necessary to adapt the plant, not the tank. Otherwise they would have released Comrade Freedom Fighter Renault Lenin "
            1. Octopus April 8 2020 05: 02 New
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              Quote: Amateur
              Kharkov Tractor

              Steam locomotive, KhPZ.
              Quote: Amateur
              So it was necessary to adapt the plant, not the tank.

              You operate with aftertaste. When the A-32 appeared, no one saw in it a single medium tank, the Soviet Sherman. The main Soviet tank was considered the future lighter Leningrad machine. It was reasonably believed that in the late 30s, tanks of 10-20 ton class were massive. Even the four exceeded 20 tons only at the end of the 39th.
    4. svp67 April 6 2020 14: 16 New
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      Quote: Amateur
      forced measure because of Christie’s suspension (there was nowhere to plant a mechwater driver due to a tower pushed forward),

      Not because of this the tower was shifted, but because of the longitudinal arrangement of the engine and the placement of transmission elements in the stern, the suspension did not play any role on this
      Quote: Amateur
      then a course machine gun hole - why not wrecking?

      It’s just following the general tradition of tank building, by the way, we only refused the machine gun on the T-62
      Quote: Amateur
      Conclusion: The designers created a tank with 45 mm of armor, transferring to it all both the shortcomings and rational decisions of the BT tanks, without thinking at all why they were doing this.

      No, they just customized the tank to well-known and proven solutions, as well as production capabilities.
      Quote: Amateur
      T-34 40 years and T-34-85 44 years - very different tanks.

      Only in particular, they are basically the same
      1. Amateur April 7 2020 08: 02 New
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        By the way, we only refused the machine gun on the T-62

        Well, how do you find the machine gun on the T-44?
        1. svp67 April 7 2020 10: 25 New
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          Quote: Amateur
          Well, how do you find the machine gun on the T-44?

          Easy...

          1 — upper inclined leaf of the bow; 2 - towing hook; 3 - spring latch hook; 4 - turret leaf; 5 — place of the motor partition; 6 — place for the tower shoulder strap; 7 - a place for the location of the roof above the engine and the roof of the OVER transmission; 8 — caps of armored exhaust pipes; 9 - torsion bar bracket: 10 - wing above the caterpillar; 11 - cutout to the armor for the prism periscope; 12 — side sheet; 13 — the hatch of the mechanic ”of the driver; 14 — viewing gap of the driver; 15 — sloth bracket; 16- lower inclined leaf of the bow; 17 - hole
          for firing a machine gun DTM



          Installation of the DT course machine gun in the T-44 tank.
  • tank64rus April 6 2020 08: 53 New
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    Koshkin had already worked as a designer in a tank design bureau in St. Petersburg and was awarded the Order of the Red Star for developing a gearbox for a medium tank, so it is not true to represent him only as a talented organizer.
    1. John22 April 6 2020 11: 21 New
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      So why, then, on the T-34 until 1943 was a terrible checkpoint? Why didn’t Koshkin promote his awarded checkpoint to him?
      1. svp67 April 6 2020 14: 21 New
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        Quote: John22
        So why, then, on the T-34 until 1943 was a terrible checkpoint? Why didn’t Koshkin promote his awarded checkpoint to him?

        Excuse me, are you sure that the “Koshkinskaya” checkpoint would work well on the T-34?
        Our tank designers only studied and made a lot of mistakes. In particular, when switching from the M-5 engine to the M-17, a different torque was not taken into account, as a result, the tanks of the first series with the M-17 quickly failed ... very quickly. Unfortunately, the same thing as “carbon copy” happened with the BT-7M, KV, and T-34 ... they did not take into account all the features of the diesel engine and got a bunch of problems with the reliability of the transmission
      2. boris epstein April 6 2020 15: 31 New
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        That gearbox was intended for the T-46-5 (T-111) tank and was weak for the T-34. Yes, and Koshkin just did not have time, he died in 1940. He also had the idea of ​​installing a torsion bar suspension on the T-34M. I didn’t have time ... No wonder the Luftwaffe bombed a cemetery where MI Koshkin would be buried
        1. svp67 April 6 2020 16: 30 New
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          Quote: boris epstein
          He also had the idea of ​​installing a torsion bar suspension on the T-34M.

          He could have had a lot of ideas, in particular, installing the engine across the body, but in a particular project he did not manage to draw them up. His main task was the creation and design support of the production of the T-34 stream. The T-34M project was already being done without it, and it appeared after our military had a close acquaintance with the German Pz-III
          1. boris epstein April 6 2020 17: 07 New
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            It is Koshkin’s presence of these ideas that proves that he was, first and foremost, a Designer, and, second, a manager, and a good manager, we must give him his due. A talented person is talented in everything. And the installation of the engine across the hull, the frontal armor plate without the machine gun, the offset of the tower closer to the center of the hull were realized by AA Morozov on the T-44.
            1. svp67 April 7 2020 10: 31 New
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              Quote: boris epstein
              .A the installation of the engine across the hull, the frontal armor plate without the machine gun, the turret displacement closer to the center of the hull were realized by AA Morozov on the T-44.

              alas, but the T-44 tank machine gun WAS PRESENT
  • Jarserge April 6 2020 09: 08 New
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    Take to collect all the gossip, 100 centuries ago, all the doubts and personal opinions of people who were at the center of events and not really, and pass them off as the ultimate truth. Why do investigators and historians double-check and do not trust all the eyewitness accounts? Very simply, everyone who writes memoirs and memoirs voluntarily or involuntarily exaggerate their participation in the events, the significance of their personality and their awareness. There is even such an expression "lying as an eyewitness." Koshkin was the chief designer means first of all the organizer. Yes, and know better his associates and contemporaries ....
  • Krasnoyarsk April 6 2020 09: 19 New
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    = ... and military misunderstanding of the development prospects of tanks ... =
    Something in this phrase I do not like. It is the military that sets the TTT for the designers. And the designers are trying to satisfy these tactical and technical requirements.
    This is not the first time I have noticed how in articles on design bureaus and designers, the military are represented by idiots who are unable to understand the "ingenious" engineers and in every possible way impeded the development of "scientific thought"
  • Mikhail3 April 6 2020 09: 20 New
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    Stalin tried to establish "accounting and control." The trouble was that for those who needed specialists were no less than those who carried out the main work. That is, it was necessary to take half of the engineers, and instead of doing the actual work, put them to monitor the work of the second half. In conditions when there were not enough engineers to solve production problems, this would be ridiculous, if it were not impossible.
    The next problem was the so-called "special eating." Stalin set up training for young engineers. They came to factories, factories, in design bureaus. And who met them there? Firstly, workers who are weaned (and many never knew how) to work efficiently and hard. And secondly, the communist leadership, with orders and medals, having revolutionary merit, and aimed at factories in terms of another initiative or set. That is, these people did not understand either the ear or the snout in production and management.
    All these "greeters" were seen in young engineering personnel as natural enemies. And on each newly arrived engineer a shaft of anonymous denunciations immediately rolled. And who checked them? They were checked by experts in denunciations. Stalin simply did not have a system that would test JOB.
    This is all - the biggest mistake, the biggest fault, the biggest failure of Stalin. Even the management genius, which Stalin undoubtedly was, could not overcome the systemic problems of his basic education. The idea that “there are no irreplaceable” is good during church service, anyone can read prayers and psalms. And in science and technology, the irreplaceable majority! Here and now, at this particular moment, not a single person in a well-coordinated engineering team can be changed without a thorough study of this step! And such a study would not be carried out by the NKVD ...
    All this is very sad.
    1. Octopus April 6 2020 11: 23 New
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      Quote: Mikhail3
      Stalin simply did not have a system that would test JOB.
      This is all - the biggest mistake, the biggest fault, the biggest failure of Stalin.

      This is a very big topic. The political leadership of the USSR brought both great benefit and enormous damage to the country's defense capabilities.
      1. Mikhail3 April 6 2020 13: 18 New
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        Exactly. It was not possible to establish truly effective management of production and the economy. At the same time, cybernetics was suspiciously deceived in time, and outstanding economists thundered into the camps ...
        1. Avior April 7 2020 07: 12 New
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          Cybernetics came under distribution rather by accident.
          No one had any special complaints about its technical application, but in the West cybernetics began to spread to the field of social and social disciplines, but the fact that cybernetics claimed instead of the party and government smile to rule the people, they could not forgive her smile
  • lucul April 6 2020 10: 15 New
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    It should be noted that to develop a breakthrough design of the tank, a design genius was needed, but Koshkin was not.

    Yes, you don’t need to be a genius - it’s enough to be a person who sees the picture quite clearly, and most importantly - there must be a desire and the ability to achieve it.
  • old grandfather April 6 2020 10: 20 New
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    "... threaded connections were impregnated with hot oil," and to what depth were the bolts “impregnated”?
    1. Mikhail3 April 6 2020 13: 15 New
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      Laughter for no reason ... Such an operation - "thread impregnation" was standard. The bad steel, which was cut on the machine with not very good cutters, gave threads of disgusting quality, with cuts, tears, the edges crumbled ... Moreover, all this almost instantly rusted. Therefore, the tin oiler was heated, and the grease, nigrol, that was, poured into each threaded connection. We'll see how it goes. Of course, a puddle was formed near each thread, but hot lubricant penetrates very well between parts connected by a thread, the surface tension force and low viscosity of hot oil affect it. The work is hard and not very intelligent, but the rubbing parts will not bite with rust, the bolts will not tighten tightly ...
  • Operator April 6 2020 10: 30 New
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    Alekseenko - author of the idea, Firsov - designer, Koshkin - manager, Dick - wrecker of the T-34 project laughing
  • BAI
    BAI April 6 2020 11: 23 New
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    The Americans claim that the main technical solutions of the T-34 are American. Those. the creator of the T-34 is one of the Americans.
    1. Sahalinets April 6 2020 17: 25 New
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      The gearbox is exactly from some 1928 American tractor. They noticed this in tests in the USA. And it became known to us. Docks published.
  • Disorder April 6 2020 12: 59 New
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    This is not a historical and technical article, but some kind of direct Santa Barbara. Description of the ordeal of the "brilliant" designer from the "former", whose work was used by the party functionary.
  • 75 Sergey April 6 2020 13: 12 New
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    The campaign went too far with the bleaching of the "Soviet past", began to denigrate again ....
    Zadolbali already these "swings", and you can agree that no one is better than the current bureaucrats and oligarchs.
    1. Mikhail3 April 6 2020 15: 46 New
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      Do not go with the flow. And do not swim against the tide either. Swim where you need to go! Do not slander, do not whitewash, do not paint questions and topics. Understand them! Then everything will become clear, and paint will not be needed.
  • vladcub April 6 2020 13: 16 New
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    What led to the creation of the T-34? Firsov’s talent, organizational skills of Koshkin and the “scent” of Ordzhonikidze. Sergo was a medical assistant by training, a revolutionary and a talented organizer. He knew how to select frames and with the appointment of Koshkin, which is called he was in the "top ten,"
    1. Mikhail3 April 6 2020 15: 49 New
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      However, the "supernarcomat", which united the food of not all the industry of the USSR under the leadership of Ordonikidze, managed with great difficulty and worked not in the best way. Auto-moto-photobrich tractor plants are generally difficult to manage. And Ordzhonikidze did not agree to divide the zone of responsibility into more distinct drug commissars until hysteria ...
  • 123456789 April 6 2020 14: 14 New
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    Who was the chief designer of the T-34?

    “Victory has a thousand fathers, and defeat is always an orphan”
    1. vladcub April 6 2020 15: 50 New
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      I know this about aphorism
  • boris epstein April 6 2020 15: 21 New
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    "Two years before his appointment to Kharkov, he graduated from the Leningrad Polytechnic Institute and then worked as a designer in the tank design bureau of the Kirov Leningrad Plant. That was the end of his experience in developing tanks."
    Koshkin in Leningrad continued to develop the design of the Ginzburg tank with T-46-5 (T-111) anti-ballistic armor. But tests showed that the engine was weak, the tracks were narrow (due to which patency was affected), the 45 mm caliber guns were weak. Yes, and the booking left much to be desired. It was there that Koshkin came up with the idea of ​​inclined booking, although it was not new. the reservation was on Mgebrov’s armored car (1914). Projectile armor, a diesel engine, and a powerful gun were in the design of the tank VD Mendeleev, for which the tsar did not allocate money from the treasury. As they say, ideas are in the air. That's where Koshkin got the idea combine all this in one project. He submitted such a project to Ordzhonikidze, after which he was transferred to Kharkov. I fully admit that Firsov also had the same project, but he still had the wheel-tracked one. And Koshkin had to prove the right to develop a purely tracked project through Stalin. permission required not to stop working on the wheeled-tracked A-20.
  • 1536 April 6 2020 15: 22 New
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    In such articles relating to the development and production of the Arms of Victory, I would like to see a list of literature, sources, links to archival funds, to memoirs of leaders of the defense industry, and finally, on which the author relied. And then, in the next article, one of the “researchers” will say that, “No, these are Petrov and Mikhailov” who were real developers, nominated even for the “Stalin Prize”, but because of the greed of the People’s Commissar accountant they didn’t get it .. . "
  • abc_alex April 6 2020 15: 47 New
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    Since 1932, at the plant, under the leadership of the chief of diesel cladding, Konstantin Chelpan, the development of the 400-strong tank diesel engine BD-2 (high-speed diesel), the future B2, was carried out. Chelpan has repeatedly testified that a qualified diesel specialist Firsov made a great contribution to the creation of this engine. The military and Stalin personally closely monitored the progress of diesel work. The first sample of the DB-2 was demonstrated to the country's leadership in 1934. For this development, the plant, director Bondarenko and Chelpan were awarded the orders of Lenin.


    Immediately it is necessary to clarify and correct the error. BD-2 was not the future B-2. The future B-2 was the Charomsky aircraft engine, developed in Moscow. BD-2 really never really worked.



    1935 on the desk of the chief designer lay elaborated sketches of a fundamentally new tank: protivosnaryadny booking with large angles of inclination, long-barrel 76,2-mm gun, diesel engine V-2


    In 1935, the V-2 diesel engine could not even be in the sketch. The sketch could have a maximum of BD-2A.
    And B-2 as it was, could appear no earlier than 1938 after a failure in the tests of the BD-2 and a change in the composition of the designers.


    Who was he before? Koshkin was a party functionary and established himself as a good organizer. He was personally acquainted with Ordzhonikidze and Kirov. Two years before his appointment to Kharkov, he graduated from the Leningrad Polytechnic Institute and then worked as a designer in the tank design bureau of the Leningrad Plant named after Kirov. On this his experience in the development of tanks ended.


    Koshkin did not just work at factory number 185. He was the deputy of Ginzburg. He was directly involved in the development of the T-29 tank and the prototype T-111 (T-46-5?).






    And if there were experts in tank construction in the USSR of the 30s, then this is Ginzburg. His KB worked with people who had experience working on the TG, T-26, BT and T-28.
    So Koshkin was far from a party functionary. Rather, not only a functionary. In any case, he received the Red Star not on the party line.


    In October 1937, a TTT was issued for a new wheeled-tracked tank with three pairs of driving wheels, a frontal armor thickness of 25 mm, a 45 mm or 76,2 mm cannon and a diesel engine.
    The development of the new tank was based on the concept of Firsov


    Is this somehow documented? Or is this just an assumption by the author of the article?


    Further it is not entirely clear how Koshkin in those conditions creates a KB-24 and continues work on a new tank.


    Initiative of volunteers. He had the authority to do so. Moreover, we were talking about work on the BT-20 (A-20), a wheeled-tracked one.

    Koshkin continued to fight for the tracked version of the tank, and in September 1938 the plant was tasked with developing two versions of the tank: the wheel-tracked A20 and the tracked A-20G (A32).


    No. He does not receive tasks for development. He gets разрешение to develop two machines in parallel. The assignment from him and the plant was only on a wheeled-tracked vehicle.

    I do not want to challenge the position of the authors. Perhaps Koshkin had drawings left over from Firsov. But this is not proven. In any case, the logic of the actions of Koshkin himself is completely understandable and it does not begin with the works of Firsov, but with the work with Ginzburg.
    By the way, Ginzburg as an expert took a very active part in the fate of the future T-34, directly recommending it as a medium tank with anti-ballistic armor.
    1. Jager April 6 2020 17: 03 New
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      Totally agree.
    2. Bad_gr April 6 2020 20: 11 New
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      Quote: abc_alex
      The future B-2 was aircraft engine Charomsky, developed in Moscow.

      This is also a misconception: in parallel, several engines were developed, both for aircraft and for armored vehicles, and the B-2 was originally planned for armored vehicles, but in its design there are solutions that were applied both there and there. For example, a cylinder block made of silumin (an alloy of aluminum with silicon).
  • Jager April 6 2020 16: 48 New
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    The article is very superficial and not accurate.
    In general, why are the T-34s so praised and completely forgotten by the same BT, HF and IS?
    1. boris epstein April 7 2020 16: 11 New
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      The fact that BT was outdated by 1939 was shown by events in Spain, on Khalkhin Gol and in Finland. There was a quick-firing small-caliber (37 mm) anti-tank artillery. Speed ​​no longer saved. Moreover, the principle of a wheel-caterpillar tank was outdated. Power transmission to the track rollers stole a lot of weight, within the framework of this design it was impossible to strengthen either armor or weapons. HF ... Yes, the reservation was powerful. But in armament with the L-10 or L-11 gun, it was much inferior to the T-34 with the F-32 or F-34 gun of the same caliber-76 mm. And the weight, the gearbox were not brilliant. It was not in vain that at the end of 1941 they switched to the KV-1C model, they began to install the F-34 gun on it, and from the end of 1942, the 85 mm on the KV-85 model. The IS-1 with an 85 mm gun appeared later, was released in a small series, and in 1943 the IS-2 with a 122 mm gun was launched. They began to enter the troops in 1944. But in the same 1944, T-34-85 began to enter the troops.
      1. Jager April 10 2020 12: 33 New
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        L-10/11 was put on the T-34, and these machines were quite few.
        But for Pz.III, the CT-28 was quite enough. And Pz. IV with a short KwK 37 somehow did not complain about problems with the BT / T-26.
  • aglet April 6 2020 17: 27 New
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    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
    The British did not accept it, but they exported it to us, Poles and other countries with pleasure

    the British simply sold licenses for vickers 6t, and produced tanks already on the ground, taking into account the specifics of countries. because t26 and 7tr only look a little similar
  • aglet April 6 2020 17: 33 New
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    Quote: svp67
    I do not agree here. Vickers - 6 tons, was very good, at that time, according to many indicators

    although the Angles didn’t accept him, was he not very good?
  • IL-64 April 6 2020 19: 20 New
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    C'mon)))) that is, the repression, after all, were there?))) It is necessary)))
  • Lekz April 7 2020 02: 41 New
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    What I drew attention to. In October 1937, TTT was issued to a tank with a frontal armor thickness of 25 mm. In March 1938 they demand increasing the thickness to 30, in September 1939 - to 45. Any engineer understands that we are talking about three different tanks. What kind of patience should Stalin have to look at these clowns in ABU? Two years (on the eve of the war) are determined by the thickness of the armor! And they say there were no pests.
  • beeper April 7 2020 03: 26 New
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    Dear Kharkov tank designer, associate of the Chief Designer of tanks A.A. Morozov, Yuri Apukhtin on the eve of the 75th anniversary of our Victory, to the best of his ability, highlighted the long-standing theme of the sole authorship of one of the most famous tools of the Victory T-34 medium tank, the project and the beginning of its serial production ....
    As he was "boiling" in the atmosphere of the still frosty design bureau, he probably knows something about the allegedly not very warm reviews of Alexander Alexandrovich about Mikhail Ilyich Koshkin and the passing chill in relation to his widow, who lived with the Morozovs in the same house, in next door ??! Or is it just OBS and vile gossip ??!
    And why would it, because as far as I know, Alexander Alexandrovich Morozov was fairly straightforward in expressing his sympathies and antipathies, as he had a developed sense of justice, despite the ranks and ranks of his counterparts ?!

    It is clear that the concept of the T-34 tank did not crystallize out at once and not out of the blue, so many of the mentioned personalities contributed. But do not underestimate the role of Mikhail Ilyich Koshkin - he also paid with his life for promoting the first prototypes of the future T-34!
    By the way, after all, problems with the gearbox of tanks of Kharkov designers were resolved only by urgent creation (according to legend, personally by A.A. Morozov) and introduction "into the series", already in the Urals during the Great Patriotic War (in my opinion, only in 1943, I’m lazy three hours before going to work to find out who is interested, find and understand for yourself this interesting epic with the improvement of the designs of T-34-76 and T-34-85 in serial production), completely (of course, except for the first stage) synchronized five-speed gearbox ?!

    Mikhail Ilyich Koshkin, as far as I know, was a rather talented "techie", a mechanical engineer, and not just an organizer and leader (in the past, an experienced pastry chef, a party member and a participant in the suppression of the Kronstad rebellion)!
    Design credo of Mikhail Ilyich Koshkin:
    "To work not after, but to overtake. In the design, use not an analog, but a tendency. To create a tank that would be promising and did not require significant changes"
    .

    So he was able to think in design concepts, and with his whole life he showed that he is able to solve the most difficult tasks and take responsibility, as befits a Real Chief Designer!

    And the T-34, which gained unfading military glory on the battlefields of World War II and World War II, and then in numerous wars and conflicts around the world up to now, is a great merit of the entire design and technology team of Uralmash, where the head design bureau was based with the Chief Designer of the staged Soviet tanks T-34-85, T-44, T-54, T-64 (the prototype T-74 started by the search design, also the revolutionary "happy four", they didn’t let him finish, alas! Yuri Apukhtin, like no one else, in the know about those events!) by Alexander Alexandrovich Morozov!

    But, probably, I already ran ahead and the Dear Author will please us, my grateful readers, with an insider on this topic (although, in principle, Yuri Apukhtin wrote a book about this a long time ago and it was available on the Web, as well as edited diaries A .A. Morozova) ?!
    1. beeper April 7 2020 03: 51 New
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      And, I forgot to say, as a topic for an interesting future article (and the dissertation too smile ) -I donate: To consider the causes of occurrence, existence and natural death, by the end of the 1930s, the concept of a wheeled-tracked tank precisely in function of the path resource of tank tracks, largely (like the construction of skyscrapers) due to successes in the creation of manganese steels! yes
      Who in this matter will catch up and get a taste, that is, also the operational-tactical aspect of the "wheeled-tracked concept."
      The mutual influence of the development of armored vehicles and the development of the art of "leadership of armored forces" in different countries and the theater of war is also an interesting and very wide topic.
      Be of good cheer! wink
  • About 2 April 7 2020 05: 42 New
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    Good article, thanks to the author!
  • 123456789 April 7 2020 10: 37 New
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    The repressions affected not only Firsov, who was soon shot, but many of the managers and engineers of the plant and design bureau. In 1937, a commission was sent to the plant from Moscow to find out the reasons for the low quality of the BD-2 engines, which revealed flaws in the design of the engine and non-compliance with its production technology.

    According to the results of the commission's work, the engine was finalized, making up to two thousand changes to it, but organizational conclusions were made. Chelpan was removed from work and in December 1937 was arrested along with the designers: diesel engineers Trashutin, Aptekman, Levitan and Gurtov, everyone except Trashutin was shot for "wrecking", the latter was released in 1939. The chief engineer of the Lyashch plant, the chief metallurgist Metantsev and many other engineers and military representatives are being arrested. In May 1938, the director of the Bondarenko plant was arrested and soon shot.

    According to Vasiliev, the repression caused a real phobia in KB-190.

    The wave of arrests that swept from November-December 1937 at the plant disorganized the work on the new tank, Dick was accused of disrupting the work, who was arrested in April 1938 and sentenced to ten years, this ended his career.

    From the bible. The Gospel of Luke (chap. 12, v. 48) says: “... And from everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom much has been entrusted, they will be more exacted from that. ”
  • Cowbra April 8 2020 13: 53 New
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    What really is Sean Connery ?!
  • ser56 April 8 2020 20: 41 New
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    Thank you - informative article!
    The attitude of SV towards engineers is striking - such talents as Firsov destroyed .... request
    By the way, the biography has a lot in common with Polikarpov - except death ....
    "The surnames of Firsov and Koshkin as the main designers of the T-34 can adequately stand nearby."
    reasonable conclusion ....
    "Already at the end of 1935 on the desk of the chief designer lay elaborated sketches of a fundamentally new tank: protivosnaryadny booking with large angles of inclination, long-barrel 76,2 mm gun, diesel engine V-2, weight up to 30 tons ..."
    means the beginning. Does MiTV Pavlov have nothing to do with it? Another legend? request
  • Kostadinov April 13 2020 12: 10 New
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    1. They could not endure that the political commissar did what the “repression experts” could not, and now they found a document that some kind of “concept” was beating on paper about a tank that resembled something. And why is this Firsov “concept” not implemented in metal? What prevented the repressed from Tukhachevsky to Firsov? Until 1937 they all decided what to produce, how much, when, and did everything as they wanted. But the weapon with which they won the war appeared in the metal, for some reason, only then when they were no longer beaten or they did not solve anything.
    2. I expect the appearance of a “document” that the T-34 concept was developed in tsarist Russia, and if the revolution did not beat, the T-34 went into series in 1918.
    1. abc_alex April 13 2020 19: 31 New
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      Quote: Kostadinov
      They could not endure that the political commissar did what "repression experts" could not


      Read my post above. Koshkin was not a "commissar." He was a professional designer, talented enough to receive the Order of the Red Star for his work at the tank factory in Leningrad. And had the experience of leadership. In Koshkin, design and administrative abilities, party authority and good ties at the very “top” successfully converged.

      Quote: Kostadinov
      And why is this Firsov “concept” not implemented in metal?

      The concept of an anti-ballistic tank won the minds of tankers only after the war in Spain. Then they came up against the German infantry, armed with a 37-mm anti-tank "clapper". And it became clear that the bulletproof armor of Soviet tanks was no longer relevant. a penny cannon bounces expensive tanks with a crew in one shot.
      Prior to this, the idea of ​​booking a tank from guns did not occur to the military. In fact, it was before this revolution in the minds of 1937-1938 that there was no Soviet tank school, concepts and designs from Europe were copied.

      Quote: Kostadinov
      I expect the appearance of a “document” that the concept of the T-34 was developed in tsarist Russia and if the revolution did not beat, the T-34 went into series in 1918.


      I do not exclude such an opportunity :) :) :)
  • Kostadinov April 14 2020 11: 45 New
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    Read my post above. Koshkin was not a "commissar." He was a professional designer, talented enough to receive the Order of the Red Star for his work at the tank factory in Leningrad.

    And who denies that Koshkin has become a professional designer. But before that, he beat the commissar. And the commissar, according to modern mitology, must beat a bad, incapable person. Here repressions are always smarter and more talented. Therefore, they found a paper that Koshkin stole the "concept" from the repressed Firsov.
    "Firsov laid the primary technical appearance of the future T-34 and its main technical characteristics. Vasiliev recalled: Already at the end of 1935, worked out sketches of a fundamentally new tank lay on the chief designer’s table: protivosnaryadny booking with large angles, long-barrel 76,2 mm gun "V-2 diesel engine, weight up to 30 t ..."

    Already at the end of 1935 beaten up "elaborated sketches of a fundamentally new tank." The brilliant Firsov will be the chief designer for another year, his superiors will also be repressed, led by the repression genius Tukhachevsky. But instead of this fundamentally new tank in metal, only BT-7 appears with such defects that it is called "wrecking".
    In addition, it is very interesting how they got the V-1935 diesel in 2 if it was used on a stand at the end of 1937, and was mass-produced since 1939? What kind of anti-shell armor hit for example a tank turret - 40, 60, 100 mm, and which hit a 76,2 mm long-barreled tank gun?
  • Dock47 April 18 2020 23: 08 New
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    Another “historian" is a fighter against a bloody scoop. How you lifted up! Where did the firewood come from? And everything seems to be moderate and Koshkin made his contribution, but extended the shit. And about cleaning the bloody gebni and about sharazhki. Try it, wash it! From you bastards already sick. All tirelessly trash our history.