Who was the chief designer of the T-34?

History create tank T-34 fell during the period of "great terror" and was largely tragic for its creators. According to canonical Soviet historiography, the creation of the T-34 is associated exclusively with the name of the chief designer Mikhail Koshkin, who replaced the repressed Afanasy Firsov in December 1936. It should be noted that to develop a breakthrough design of the tank, a design genius was needed, but Koshkin was not.

Start of development of the first Soviet tank

For an objective assessment of the contribution of each of them, it is necessary to return to the time when the Soviet tank school was just beginning to take shape. Until the end of the 20s, the Union had no tanks of its own design, only in 1927 the military issued requirements for the development of the first Soviet “maneuverable tank” with machine gun and cannon weapons. The development of the tank was transferred by the Main Design Bureau of the Gun-Arsenal Trust to Kharkov at the KhPZ named after The Comintern (Plant No. 183), where a specialized design group was created for the development of the tank (transformed in 1929 into the T2K tank design bureau), which was headed by a young talented designer Ivan Aleksenko (1904), who led the design bureau until 1931. The same young designers worked in the group, including the future chief designer Alexander Morozov.

In a short time, the designers developed documentation for the tank, and in 1929 a prototype T-12 tank was made. According to the test results, the tank was converted into a T-24 tank, a pilot batch of 25 vehicles was manufactured, and according to the test results, completion of their design began, but in June 1931 it was ordered to stop and begin designing the BT wheel-caterpillar tank.

This was due to the fact that the military leadership decided not to “develop from scratch” the development of domestic tanks, but to borrow the experience of Western designers and produce foreign tanks under license: the American “Christy” M1931, which became the prototype of the fast BT-2, and the English “Vickers” six-ton ​​”, which became the prototype of the light T-26. BT-2 production was placed at KhPZ, and T-26 at the Bolshevik Leningrad plant. So in the Union began to take shape two schools of tank building.

In Kharkov, the KhPZ management and designers opposed such a turn of events, were in no hurry to introduce BT-2 into production, and tried to complete the T-24 refinement. Moscow insisted on its decision, and work on the BT-2 slowly began to gain momentum. The head of the T2K design bureau, Aleksenko, believed that copying foreign equipment was unpatriotic, that you need to create your own tank school, and in disagreement filed an application and quit.

Only young people worked in the design bureau, mainly without a higher technical education, supporting Aleksenko with the aspirations to bring their T-24 tank. To strengthen the design bureau by the decision of the OGPU board in December 1931, the head of the design bureau was appointed a talented and experienced engineer Afanasy Firsov, who was sitting in one of Moscow "sharashka", sentenced to five years in prison for "wrecking activity". Firsov’s appointment played a crucial role for the Design Bureau and Soviet tank construction.

Who is Firsov

Firsov was born in 1883 in the family of a Berdyansk merchant, after graduating from a railway school, he received higher education at the Higher Technical School in Mitweide (Germany) and the Polytechnic Institute in Zurich (among other things, he graduated from Albert Einstein), specialized in the design of diesel engines. After graduating, he worked as a designer at the Zulzer plant.

In 1914 he returned to Russia, at the Kolomenskoye Machine-Building Plant he began to work on the creation of diesel engines for submarines, then he became the chief mechanic of the Krasnaya Etna plant in Nizhny Novgorod, and in 1927 at the Andre Marty Nikolaev plants, he became the chief engineer for diesel construction.

In 1929, as a representative of the "old regimes", he was involved in a case of a counter-revolutionary wrecking group at a factory, he pleaded not guilty and was not proved, but in connection with such suspicions he quit in 1929 and moved to Leningrad, where he was invited as a specialist to the factory "Russian diesel".

The year 1930 was on, the trial of the members of the Industrial Party began, among the accused there was a close acquaintance of Firsov, he was reminded of the "Nikolaev case", arrested, and sentenced to five years in prison. A qualified specialist, he worked in one of the Moscow “sharashka” under the direct supervision of Ordzhonikidze, here he began to deal with the problems of tank building, and in 1931, under guard, was sent to Kharkov to head the “rebellious” tank design bureau.

At first, the team of creators of the T-24 did not very warmly welcome the appointee “from above,” but the gifted and versatile Firsov, an engineer with encyclopedic knowledge, quickly gained authority and respect. According to contemporaries, being under round-the-clock control of the OGPU and living at the factory, since the family remained in Leningrad, he plunged into work with his head. Firsov was able to well and clearly organize the work of his subordinates, restrained, balanced in communication, he sought to convey his experience to subordinates. Together with them he studied technical innovations of foreign companies, encouraged the study of foreign languages.

Development of a family of BT tanks and a B2 diesel engine

Firsov was given the task of organizing a high-quality production of BT-2 tanks at the plant, which had many flaws and defects in the main units, power plant and chassis units. The Liberty engine, purchased in the United States, was capricious, often overheated, and there were cases of ignition during start-up. The development of serial production of these tanks was also difficult due to the lack of a base at the plant capable of mastering the production of a new tank in such quantities. Complaints about the failure of gearboxes often came from the army.

Firsov with a team of young designers put a lot of work to refine the design of the tank and improve its production technology. Gradually, the problems disappeared, under his leadership the BT-5 and BT-7 tanks were developed, which continued the line of vehicles of this family. In 1935, for the development of the BT-7 tank, Firsov was awarded the Order of the Red Banner.

Since 1932, at the plant, under the leadership of the chief of diesel cladding, Konstantin Chelpan, the development of the 400-strong tank diesel engine BD-2 (high-speed diesel), the future B2, was carried out. Chelpan has repeatedly testified that a qualified diesel specialist Firsov made a great contribution to the creation of this engine. The military and Stalin personally closely monitored the progress of diesel work. The first sample of the DB-2 was demonstrated to the country's leadership in 1934. For this development, the plant, director Bondarenko and Chelpan were awarded the orders of Lenin.

The concept of a new tank and repression

While improving the BT wheeled-tracked tanks, an experienced engineer Firsov saw that this was a dead end, there could be no breakthrough. He began to look for ways to create a fundamentally new tank, under his leadership a small group of Alexander Morozov, Mikhail Tarshinov and Vasily Vasiliev during 1935 led the development of such a tank.

Firsov laid the primary technical appearance of the future T-34 and its main technical characteristics. Vasiliev recalled:

Already at the end of 1935 on the desk of the chief designer lay elaborated sketches of a fundamentally new tank: protivosnaryadny booking with large angles of inclination, long-barrel 76,2 mm gun, V-2 diesel engine, weight up to 30 tons ...

From the tank of the BT family, the new tank inherited a completely welded hull and a Christie suspension, and a wheel-tracked mover was abandoned in favor of a purely tracked one.

In 1936, KhPZ them. The Comintern is renamed to factory No. 183, and KB T2K is assigned the KB-190 index, the design bureau is working on the components and assemblies of the new tank, but in the summer of 1936 repressions begin at the factory. The reason was the mass complaints from the troops due to the failure of the BT-7 tank gearboxes. There really were constructive flaws in the tank’s design, in addition, the troops were carried away by spectacular ski jumping from the springboard, which naturally affected the BT-7’s performance. The car began to be called a "wrecking tank", Firsov was removed from his post, but left to work in the design bureau.

Instead of Firsov, in December 1936 Ordzhonikidze, who knew Mikhail Koshkin well, transferred him from Leningrad to Kharkov and appointed him head of KB-190. Firsov personally met the new chief designer, who continued to work in the design bureau until his arrest and painstakingly brought him up to date.

In a short time, Morozov, under the leadership of Firsov, developed a new gearbox, put it into production, and the issue was closed, but 1937 and the Great Terror were approaching. Firsov did not forget his "wrecking activity" in Nikolaev and Leningrad. In March 1937 he was again arrested and sent to prison in Moscow. For some time he was kept there together with another “pest” - aircraft designer Tupolev.

The repressions affected not only Firsov, who was soon shot, but many of the managers and engineers of the plant and design bureau. In 1937, a commission was sent to the plant from Moscow to find out the reasons for the low quality of the BD-2 engines, which revealed flaws in the design of the engine and non-compliance with its production technology.

According to the results of the commission's work, the engine was finalized, making up to two thousand changes to it, but organizational conclusions were made. Chelpan was removed from work and in December 1937 was arrested along with the designers: diesel engineers Trashutin, Aptekman, Levitan and Gurtov, everyone except Trashutin was shot for "wrecking", the latter was released in 1939. The chief engineer of the Lyashch plant, the chief metallurgist Metantsev and many other engineers and military representatives are being arrested. In May 1938, the director of the Bondarenko plant was arrested and soon shot.

According to Vasiliev, the repression caused a real phobia in KB-190. He recalled:

"I must say, I personally suffered this phobia very hard, slept and listened to the sounds of the approaching" black raven "with a couple of people in civilian clothes, inviting you to politely follow them."

Under such conditions of fear and expectation of arrest, the development of a new tank continued.

Who is Koshkin

After Firsov, KB-190 was adopted by Koshkin. Who was he before? Koshkin was a party functionary and established himself as a good organizer. He was personally acquainted with Ordzhonikidze and Kirov. Two years before his appointment to Kharkov, he graduated from the Leningrad Polytechnic Institute and then worked as a designer in the tank design bureau of the Leningrad Plant named after Kirov. On this his experience in the development of tanks ended. Ordzhonikidze sent him to KB-190 as an experienced organizer to resolve the difficult situation at the tank factory.

Koshkin really turned out to be a talented leader, he appreciated the young team of designers and the uniqueness of the new tank concept proposed by Firsov. Prior to that, he worked in fairly high administrative and party positions and was a member of the higher courts, where he managed to prove the prospects of working on a new tank and persuaded him not to continue repressions against KB employees. Under the leadership of Koshkin, work on the tank in that difficult situation continued.

Confrontation Koshkin and Dick

To strengthen the KB-190, in June 1937 an adjunct of the Moscow Military Academy of Mechanization and Motorization was sent to a 3rd-rank military engineer Dick with not entirely clear goals. Part of the designers subordinated to him, and dual power reigned in the bureau, which could not end in anything good. During this period, the Design Bureau worked on the modernization of the BT-7 tank and the development of a new BT-9 tank, distinguished by the presence of six driving wheels, a diesel engine, a conical tower with a 45-mm or 76-mm cannon and inclined armor. The joint work of Koshkin and Dick did not work out, they accused each other of incorrect design decisions, of disrupting, and sometimes sabotaging, the works. The number of mutual complaints grew, but the work did not move.

The Moscow leadership was tired of conflicts, and in September 1937 the tank KB-190 was divided into two. A separate design bureau, led by Dick, was directly subordinated to the chief engineer of the plant, and Doroshenko, Tarshinov, Gorbenko, Morozov, and Vasiliev became the heads of sections in the design bureau. The design bureau was to replenish 50 graduates of the military academy, and as a consultant they brought in the famous tank test captain Kulchitsky.

Koshkin remained the head of KB-190, which was supposed to be exclusively engaged in the development of modernized versions of the BT-7, and the design bureau was to develop a new tank BT-9 (BT-20), serial production was supported by KB-35.

In October 1937, a TTT was issued for a new wheeled-tracked tank with three pairs of driving wheels, a frontal armor thickness of 25 mm, a 45 mm or 76,2 mm cannon and a diesel engine.

The development of the new tank was based on the concept of Firsov, which was further developed by Morozov and Tarshinov. The wave of arrests that swept through the plant in November-December 1937 disorganized the work on the new tank, Dick was accused of disrupting the work, who was arrested in April 1938 and sentenced to ten years, this ended his career.

Koshkin completes the development of the tank

Further it is not entirely clear how Koshkin in those conditions creates a KB-24 and continues work on a new tank. At least in mid-March 1938, at a meeting of the board of the Armored Command and at the end of March at a meeting of the Defense Committee, the design of the wheeled and tracked tank was presented by Koshkin and Morozov. The preliminary design of the tank was approved with comments increasing the reservation to 30 mm and installing a 76,2 mm gun. At the same time, under the direction of Koshkin, at the end of 1938, the BT-7M tank with a B2 engine was developed and put into serial production, which confirmed the possibility of using a new diesel engine on the tank.

Koshkin continued to fight for the tracked version of the tank, and in September 1938 the plant was tasked with developing two versions of the tank: the wheel-tracked A20 and the tracked A-20G (A32).

To combine efforts, all three design bureaus of the plant are combined into one KB-520 headed by Koshkin, Morozov became deputy chief designer, and Kucherenko became deputy head of the design bureau. In the shortest possible time, tank samples were made, and in June-August 1939 they were tested at the training ground in Kharkov. Both tanks passed the test, but the design of the A-32 was much simpler due to the lack of complex wheeled propulsors and had a margin of weight.

In September, when showing armored vehicles to the leadership of the Ministry of Defense, the A-20 and A32 participated, where the latter performed very effectively. According to the results of tests and shows, it was decided to stay on the tracked version of the A-32 tank, increasing its armor protection to 45 mm.

Urgent production of two A-32 tanks began at the plant. Knots and parts of the tank were carefully made and meticulously assembled, threaded joints were saturated with hot oil, and the exterior surfaces of the hull and turret were carefully finished. Experienced apparatchik Koshkin knew perfectly well that when showing tanks to the top leadership there are no trifles.

Then there was the well-known tank run from Kharkov to Moscow, the successful showing of tanks to Stalin in the Kremlin, the run back to Kharkov, Koshkin’s illness and tragic death. After the show at the highest level, the tanks were tested on the Kubinka and the Karelian Isthmus, the tank was highly appreciated by Stalin himself, he was given a ticket to life.

So, the design genius of Firsov and the organizational talents of Koshkin were able to create a machine that became the symbol of Victory in that terrible war under the conditions of the unfolding repression and misunderstanding by the military of the prospects for the development of tanks. Both of them, undoubtedly, made an enormous contribution to the creation of this machine, but to attribute all laurels only to Koshkin is unfair.

The concept of the tank and its layout was conceived by Firsov, under his leadership, the main components of the tank were developed in the design bureaus, and specialists who began to design the tank under the guidance of Firsov completed the development of the tank. The backbone of the leading designers was saved, and Koshkin in that tragic situation organized the work to complete the development of the tank and secured its adoption. The names of Firsov and Koshkin, as the main designers of the T-34, can worthily stand nearby.

Comments

[then]

"A candidate's dissertation is written by a doctor of sciences, and a doctoral dissertation is written by a candidate." :)

[Den717]

Quote: sedan

Doctoral dissertation is written by a doctor of sciences

Who wrote to you?

[then]

It is understood that the direction of the study, relevance, topic, task, method of solution, the intended result of the candidate dissertation is determined by the supervisor, usually a doctor of science. (Joke :)

[Strashila]

"Koshkin really turned out to be a talented leader, he adequately appreciated the young team of designers and the uniqueness of the new tank concept proposed by Firsov." The rest is blah blah.

[Uncle lee]

The names of Firsov and Koshkin, as the main designers of the T-34, can worthily stand nearby.

And there was a T-34 tank!

[novel66]

make a working structure from the outline ...

[Walking]

There was only a concept or a blueprint, it could just be in words, it seems, was developed by Firsov, and the tank itself and all the drawings were designed by the design bureau led by Koshkin, when Firsov had not been at the factory for three years. The question is what does Firsov have to do with it?

[novel66]

and patamushto all Stalin is to blame ...

[zenion]

This cannot be. So, as the people, in spite of Stalin defeated the Germans, so in spite of the rest they created tanks and everything else. Similarly, the composer takes folk tunes and creates a symphony, or somewhere else. And then people with diplomas come, put their signatures and say that the product is their work. The American historian wrote about the battle of Moscow as follows: then Zhukov surpassed the Far Eastern troops near Moscow and defeated the Germans. Apparently he imagined so that Zhukov could do everything he wanted.

[zenion]

I discovered this secret, only I can share. They wanted to build a tank under this name in the USA. They even figured out where to put the rollers, but did not have time. In the USSR, having guessed from the skating rinks that it would not be a tractor, but a tank, this idea with skating rinks was stolen and the USSR designers created the T-34 tank on the basis of these skating rinks, which offended not only the USA, but also Hitler. Now it doesn’t matter who invented the rollers for tanks, it is important who put them and released them together with the tank. A lot of things could whistle in the States, but the designers of Stalin managed to do this earlier than the US guys thought of it. Of course, thanks to the USA people for beating the Germans in Stalingrad and grinding them in the Kursk. It was they who released the prisoners of Auschwitz and stormed Berlin. They could have done even more, but their impulse was spent on how to defeat the Red Army, but the USSR did not help them and this undertaking failed. Now of course, you need to gouge the history of the USSR, as today's stories are absolutely not glued. So you need to confuse the gyrus, and not allow the gray cells to decide for themselves. Is the USSR correctly defeated the West, or wrong ?!

[svp67]

In principle, the author briefly told everything. That the "thirty-four concept" has been incorporated into the KhPZ projects since the mid-30s, gradually crystallizing. Was Koshkin the only father of the T-34? No. But if he is not the "father" of this tank, then what is his merit? And here the answer is only one - it is huge. Being an excellent organizer, he was able to discard all unnecessary and direct the work of the KB in the right direction. Before him, all good ideas and designs simply "perished" because of the turnover, since the designers were simply "torn apart" to solve specific every minute tasks. That led to constant disruptions in experimental design work ... and in particular for this reason, the chief designers were periodically "cleaned up", which should be very much regretted. But no one at that time ideas about the formation of "sharashek", where these "pests" could "honestly, wash away all their sins and sins" did not occur to anyone ... these ideas came later, when many of these people were already destroyed. So, a huge THANKS to everyone who, in spite of everything, was able to generate an idea, carry out all the design work and organize the production of "the tank of our VICTORY"

[mat-vey]

Quote: svp67

That the "thirty-four concept" has been incorporated into the KhPZ projects since the mid-30s, gradually crystallizing.

And it was Koshkin who, using all his connections dating back to the Civil War and the times of party work, brought to the very top that everything had already "crystallized" and it was necessary to start production without wasting time, while bringing it to mind ..

[svp67]

Quote: mat-vey

And it was Koshkin who, using all his connections dating back to the Civil War and the times of party work, brought to the very top that everything had already "crystallized" and it was necessary to start production without wasting time, while bringing it to mind ..

Do not overestimate the role of designers, albeit the main ones in this process. They were still executors of the task. And then there were the directors of factories, workers of the People's Commissariat, and most importantly there was the main customer - the People's Commissariat of Defense, which set the main task for the development of equipment. And it was NKO that was given the task of KB 183 of the plant to design new medium tanks, both wheeled and tracked and tracked. And it was not the chief designer who decided which tank would eventually go into production, namely the military, taught by the bitter experience of Spain, Halkin-Gol, and most importantly the "winter war"

[mat-vey]

To conduct a "presentation" Koshkin used all his acquaintances with the country's leadership to meet with Stalin. Or do you also think that the run was carried out on a collective farm and at your own expense? That the unhindered run passed thanks to God and Mars, the NKVD temporarily closed its eyes, lost its vigilance, so to speak?

[svp67]

Quote: mat-vey

For the "presentation" Koshkin used all his acquaintances with the country's top leadership to meet with Stalin

This "presentation" was needed not only by Koshkin, but by the director of the plant, Maksarev, who was appointed to this position in the 38th year (and where did the new one go?) And, most importantly, People's Commissar Malyshev. That's who moved the show of this tank to Stalin. And since for this it was necessary for the tanks to successfully pass a certain minimum of tests, then it was decided to send the tanks to Moscow on their own in order to roll off the required minimum mileage. By the way, the tanks were moving along the roads, everyone who lived in the slightest degree in Russia and the USSR should imagine what our country roads are in fact in winter. These are quite normal "directions" for tracked vehicles ...
More difficulties arose when these cars returned during the thaw that had begun.

[mat-vey]

Quote: svp67

This "presentation" was needed not only by Koshkin, but by the director of the plant, Maksarev, who was appointed to this position in the 38th year (and where did the new one go?) And, most importantly, People's Commissar Malyshev.

What is needed can and is needed, and why did everything break through Koshkin, a simple general designer.

[svp67]

Quote: mat-vey

What is needed can and is needed, and why did everything break through Koshkin, a simple general designer.

He wouldn't have had enough strength for that. Moreover, he was "Sergo's man", and this then already caused "sidelong glances." Yes, he could have suggested this, but people from the People's Commissariat, who were also interested in this, promoted and coordinated this issue. And the main interested party was Malyshev. Only with his support could such a run take place, otherwise, as soon as the tanks, secret experimental tanks, would leave the territory of the plant and go "somewhere, to the side", NKVD task forces would rush in pursuit of them, and arrests would be made at the plant.
The NKVD had a developed intelligence network both at the plant and in the design bureau

TOP SECRET
comrade Khrushchev
comrade Kobulov
REPORT NOTE

About structural defects and delay in production of the release of new A-34 tanks at factory No. 183 in Kharkov

When designing the tank A-34, under the leadership of the chief designer of the plant number 183 engineer. KOSHKINA, a number of defects were identified that affect the combat qualities of the machine.
The driver’s booth of the first prototype of the tank was created from the conditions of a large view forward and to the sides, due to which it turned out without an exit - a hatch for the driver and an arrow located next to him. The last exit from the car was provided through the hatch of the tower.
The lack of a hatch in the driver's booth, in addition to inconvenience, will greatly affect the team's fatigue before the fight. In addition, if in a combat situation the tower hatch is jammed, the whole team will be locked in the car and will not be able to exit.
The representative of ABTU PANOV was aware of the matter, but nevertheless agreed to the design of the booth without a hatch, without sharply raising the question before Koshkin about ensuring the design and side view and the hatch in the driver's booth.
KOSHKIN and his deputy MOROZOV, instead of working towards creating a structure with a hatch and a side view, raised the question: either with a hatch without a view, or a side view, but without a hatch.
The above design of the booth was canceled by the head of ABTU RKKA Comcor Comrade. Pavlov when armor parts were already made.
KOSHKIN instructed the designer of the transmission group BARONU to design the second version of the booth with a hatch for the driver, who had never worked on armored parts and considers himself incompetent in this work. As a result, the design of the driver's booth with a hatch turned out to be weak in strength, unable to withstand the impact of shells.
In addition, in the BARON construction booth, it is possible to open the hatch only when the gun barrel is withdrawn, for which the driver needs to rotate the latter 90 degrees.
All the design flaws of the driver's booth were promptly indicated by the head. hull section, design engineer TARSHINOV, who considered this project unsuitable for serial machines.
Koshkin, instead of taking these remarks into account and instructing an experienced designer - a corpsman to make a project without these defects, ordered to urgently detail the driver's booth according to the design of BARON.
Pointing out the design flaws of the booth, the engineer TARSHINOV himself proposed to develop the project of the latter, but was sent by KOSHKIN on a business trip to the mountains. Mariupol, although there was no need for him to go.
Returning from a business trip, engineer TARSHINOV developed and proposed a booth design with side views and a hatch, for the opening of which it is not necessary to rotate the tower. In addition, the entire booth is able to withstand the impact of shells.
Due to the change in the armor parts of the booth, the driver, the assembly of the body of the second prototype of the car was delayed for two weeks. The cost of all these alterations and additional parts is about 100 thousand rubles.
In order to cover up squandering funds, KOSHKIN prepares a driver’s booth for launching according to the design of BARON, and according to the design of engineer TARSHINOV, the production will for some reason be carried out as a prototype.
In addition, according to our data, a big drawback of the tank design is that only 38 machine-gun disks fit in the car, which clearly reduces the combat power of the car.
KOSHKIN believes that in the finished machine there will be places where allegedly it will be possible to place an additional number of machine-gun disks, although there are no such areas in the design data in the machine.
In essence, the NKVD of the USSR was notified of the adoption of appropriate measures through the People's Commissariat of Transport and the Red Army’s ABTU.

Deputy People's Commissar of Internal Affairs of the Ukrainian SSR
Gorlinsky.
7 February 1940 city

[mat-vey]

Quote: svp67

Silenok would not have been enough for him.

Well, a personal acquaintance with Kirov and Ordzhenikidze does not mean anything ...

[svp67]

Quote: mat-vey

Well, a personal acquaintance with Kirov and Ordzhenikidze does not mean anything ...

At that time, no longer, especially with the latter ... Sergo decided to "leave" very in time, otherwise it would not be known how they would have done with him

[mat-vey]

To be honest, there is no desire to look for where I read how Koshkin achieved this "rally", but he did it through a former acquaintance from the civil war, who personally could and put in a word to Stalin, but warned that Koshkin was at great risk because that mess and squealing that is happening in this "department" is very annoying I.V. Stalin ... For a long time I read someone from the high commissioners of the civil, I do not remember and once again I will rummage through the bookmarks in the scrap ... After this meeting, the shortage of hours and kilometers was settled by mileage ..

[vladcub]

All the same, 1940 - not 1937. If such a report, but in fact a denunciation, went in 1937?

[svp67]

Quote: vladcub

What is called guess one time

And Dick and Firsova just like that? There were their "denunciations"

[vladcub]

I say that if such a denunciation was on Koshkin in 1937 then ...
By the way, we do not know who "hit" Dick, Firsov and what is the fate of the "vigilant"

[svp67]

Quote: vladcub

I say that if such a denunciation was on Koshkin in 1937 then ...
By the way, we do not know who "hit" Dick, Firsov and what is the fate of the "vigilant"

Koshkin, unlike Firsov and Dick, was a WINNER. He was able to fulfill the task of the party and government, but his previous comrades failed him. The saddest thing is that the same Firsov, several years earlier, was the same winner, even received a state award, but it was worth identifying a number of serious design flaws in the tanks produced by the KhPZ, as he was remembered by all his past real and imaginary sins, demoted, arrested , condemned and shot ...
But with Dick, everything is somehow strange, in the middle of the summer of the 37th he arrived at the KhPZ, got KB under his leadership, started working, but in the autumn a commission arrived and in November of the 37th he was already arrested, convicted and sent to camps. .. He was simply not allowed to work at all. And why, this is a big mystery.
I am sure that a similar fate could have awaited Koshkina, had not slowed down the "molokh of repression" momentum. And the fact that "daddies" were constantly filling him, so I have no doubt about it. Firstly, because of the general atmosphere of denunciations, and secondly, because of the specific manner of his leadership, he himself liked to immediately punish guilty workers, draftsmen and engineers, with a stick, with which he constantly walked, from behind below his back ... so that people were offended by him

[Aviator_]

By this time, the leadership had changed in the NKVD - instead of Yezhov, Beria was appointed to the post, who began with the rehabilitation of those planted earlier. It’s a pity, it didn’t help Firsov.

[vladcub]

"do not overestimate the role of designers", but do not underestimate either. Let's say the Director of the plant is a genius, in the People's Commissariat everyone is smart, and the designer is "especially gifted", what will happen?

[svp67]

Quote: vladcub

The director of the plant is a genius, in the People's Commissariat everyone is smart, and the designer is "especially gifted", what will happen?

The old constructor will be lowered, well, if they don’t imprison and appoint a new ...

[vladcub]

This is true, but there were clever people who "translated the arrows" in advance. If a good demagogue begins to kick himself in the chest with a heel: I am with all my heart, but ... Ivanov, by the way, Ivanov drank with Petrov, and a relative of the enemy of the people Sidorov. How many there were

[Den717]

Quote: svp67

And not the chief designer decided

Instead of this dispute, I would put a candle to the glory of the fate of this tank, in which both parents, baptists, and other outside helpers happily converged on one point. It is difficult today to understand whose contribution in this matter is the most impressive. At the same time, we do not know the whole background of the fate of this car. Of the 4 million denunciations written in those years, there were many around those people associated with this machine. It was a very difficult time then. Few thought about what became the reason for the mass denunciation and perjury at different periods in different countries. The answer lies on the surface. A lust for whistleblowing from a false sense of justice is evidence of mental illness. Knocked - people with mental disorders. It is hard to believe it, but even today such patients are found. Few of them were lucky, right there in the trail of him a bunch of spiteful critics hung a hundred crimes. No one has investigated anything yet, but he is already, in the words of many idlers, in the "camp of the enemy." It's good that today our "bodies" live on their own and do not read the pearls from some sites.

[svp67]

Quote: Den717

A passion for denunciations from a false understanding of a sense of justice is evidence of mental illness.

It seems that in Europe and the United States the epidemic of this disease

[Den717]

Quote: svp67

It seems that in Europe and the United States the epidemic of this disease

And who said that we are unique in this?

[Octopus]

Quote: svp67

It seems that in Europe and the United States the epidemic of this disease

Have you already shot a lot there? Or for you, your penalty for improper parking is equal to the execution for Trotskyism among the Didov?

[svp67]

Quote: Octopus

Have you already shot a lot there? Or for you, your penalty for improper parking is equal to the execution for Trotskyism among the Didov?

Have you heard anything about McCarthyism?

[Liam]

Quote: svp67

Have you heard anything about McCarthyism?

How many millions of Americans were shot or deported to mines in Alaska during the massive and terrible terror unleashed by Senator McCarthy?

[Octopus]

Quote: svp67

Have you heard anything about McCarthyism?

And how can a senator unleash terror? What powers does he have for this?

McCarthy is a heavy drinking parliamentary chatterbox. The culprit is Eisenhower. And not at all because McCarthy indulged. And because he himself was smeared with cooperation with the Councils on the ears and translated McCarthy’s activity in investigating the anti-American activities of Roosevelt, Truman and the State Department into a safe path for himself against Charlie Chaplin, gays and blacks.

Eisenhower was not Charlie Chaplin, gay or black. Eisenhower was an incompetent fool, a coward, a liar and a traitor. Naturally, he tried to ensure that these last categories of the population from terror mccarthy not hurt in any way.

[Aaron Zawi]

Quote: svp67

In principle, the author briefly told everything. That the "thirty-four concept" has been incorporated into the KhPZ projects since the mid-30s, gradually crystallizing. Was Koshkin the only father of the T-34? No. But if he is not the "father" of this tank, then what is his merit? And here the answer is only one - it is huge. Being an excellent organizer, he was able to discard all unnecessary and direct the work of the KB in the right direction. Before him, all good ideas and designs simply "perished" because of the turnover, since the designers were simply "torn apart" to solve specific every minute tasks. That led to constant disruptions in experimental design work ... and in particular for this reason, the chief designers were periodically "cleaned up", which should be very much regretted. But no one at that time ideas about the formation of "sharashek", where these "pests" could "honestly, wash away all their sins and sins" did not occur to anyone ... these ideas came later, when many of these people were already destroyed. So, a huge THANKS to everyone who, in spite of everything, was able to generate an idea, carry out all the design work and organize the production of "the tank of our VICTORY"

I agree. Israel Tal "Father of the Merkava" had nothing to do with the design of armored vehicles, but it was he who managed to create both a design school and a full-fledged tank production in a country with a population of 4 million people. An organizer and leader in production is just as important as a talented designer.

[AUL]

I think S.P. Korolev, too, did not draw all the drawings himself on the culman! The task of the Chief Designer is to create the ideology of the future product, select personnel for its implementation, organize the work of the team and ensure its work financially, as well as fend off the arrivals of higher sages with their checks, new requirements and tips for improvement!

[vladcub]

"to fight off the attacks of superior sages", and for this you need to be a brave and good demagogue. Apparently, Koshkin possessed this: "" persuaded not to continue repressions against employees of his design bureau, "and then it was" fashionable "in the second and third rounds with reprisals

[Den717]

Quote: vladcub

you need to be a brave and good demagogue. Apparently, Koshkin had this

Demagogy (dr. Greek: “leadership of the people”; “ingratiation of the people”) is a set of oratory and polemic tricks and means to mislead the audience ... I repent, this is not a bit about Koshkin.

[Potter]

Given that everything in the design of the merkava was already invented in the USSR, and in Israel this design was only worsened - industrial espionage and theft of technology. Type machine Galil. That's the same merkava.

[Sahalinets]

You read about all these executions and landings and you think that through the efforts of the NKVD, the country was so damaged that the Germans would need another 15 tank divisions ...

[Aleksandr72]

You read about all these executions and landings and you think that through the efforts of the NKVD, the country was so damaged that the Germans would need another 15 tank divisions ...

And on the other hand, you understand that if it were not for these "efforts" of the NKVD, then many of our designers of military equipment and weapons (and not only) would continue to toil with foolishness, scribbling denunciations at each other in a fight for funding and awards with orders, but the matter stood would. Suffice it to recall Taubin, who promised a lot, but did not accomplish, and thanks to him, our promising fighters in that war were left without a 23-mm cannon, Tupolev, who finally took up his mind only in the "sharashka". And there are enough other high-profile names. Naturally, some of them were very unlucky - they were shot, not to say that it was not entirely for the cause, but probably it was possible to do without such radical measures. Others, sitting in "sharags", handed out equipment to the mountain, on which the Red Army won and eventually entered Berlin.
As for who was the chief designer of the T-34: if, in short, Firsov developed the concept of a medium tank, which became the evolutionary development of the BT series: the BT-2-7 - A-20 - T-32 - T-34 line. In this regard, it is impossible to call the T-34 design (by the way, not the most successful in many respects and definitely not the most reliable and technologically advanced, but without a doubt - the most maintainable, which was the most important for those conditions) breakthrough is impossible - everything that was used on the T- 34: (relatively) anti-cannon armor with rational slope angles, Christie suspension, etc. was already. The main thing in the design of the T-34 is that all this is combined together. Morozov finalized the design of the tank, and Koshkin managed to organize the work of the OKB and, as they would say now, to present the tank to the command of the Red Army and the country's leadership. I mean the mentioned mileage of tanks from Kharkov to Moscow and back. It cost Koshkin his life, but gave the country a tank, albeit not the most perfect, but surprisingly in time appeared, on which our tankers met the enemy on the western border in 41 (frankly, not very successfully) and on which in 45 Europe.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Alexander72

make a presentation of the tank before the command of the Red Army and the country's leadership. I mean the mentioned tank mileage from Kharkov to Moscow and back.

In order to carry out this "presentation" it was necessary just permission-support at the very top and enlist. Or do you think that you can just get fuel-lubricant, and documents with passes are made by themselves ...

[svp67]

Quote: Alexander72

On the other hand, you understand that if it were not for these "efforts" of the NKVD, then many of our designers of military equipment and weapons (and not only) would continue to toil with foolishness, scribbling denunciations at each other in a fight for funding and awards with orders, but the matter stood would.

Yes, this is still half the trouble ... The trouble was that the designers could, at will, spend the money allocated for specific projects. Stalin aptly called this process "inventive itch." Korolyov, why did he suffer? It is for this.

Quote: Alexander72

As for the one who was still the chief designer of the T-34: if in a nutshell Firsov developed the concept of a medium tank that became the evolutionary development of the BT series: the BT-2-7 - A-20 - T-32 - T-34 line .. .. The main thing in the design of the T-34 is that all this is combined together. Morozov finalized the design of the tank, and Koshkin managed to organize the work of the Design Bureau

The surname of Dick Adolf Yakovlevich is missing on your list. It was he, and not Morozov, who developed the basic technical solutions of the A-20 and A-20g tanks, which became the forerunner of the T-34

Quote: Alexander72

make a presentation of the tank before the command of the Red Army and the country's leadership. I mean the mentioned tank mileage from Kharkov to Moscow and back.

Not quite right ... The race was organized for this purpose, so that the tank could be allowed under the bright eyes of the Soviet leadership, or as you say: "To the presentation"

[Aleksandr72]

I agree with you. But to cover all in one comment is impossible. To do this, you need to write a detailed article. More than one monograph has already been written about the ups and downs in the creation, acceptance on armament and production launch of the T-34. Many well-known specialist historians in the field of armored vehicles and the use of tank troops wrote about this. Repeating them is an ungrateful work and I see no point in this. And the main merit of Koshkin as one of the main designers of the T-34 Victory tank is that he managed to organize the design bureau’s work to finalize the tank’s design and achieve its adoption by the Red Army, including and having organized a run from Kharkov to Moscow and back. Actually about the same article.

[John22]

Forgot to mention Tsyganov. He also worked at the Kharkov Design Bureau and created the BT-SV-2 "Turtle" tank with very sloping armor. He was also repressed. In my opinion, the NGO did not really understand what the army needed. And to look around the mind was not enough. The West abandoned the wheeled-tracked propellers, and the non-profit organizations held on to it until 1939. In addition, in order to support new ideas, it was necessary to give the designers the opportunity to work independently, and not to reduce them into one design bureau. In the USSR they loved, for political purposes, to create legends about the nuggets of their people, and they simply hushed up about the repressions.

[svp67]

Quote: John22

In my opinion, NPO did not really understand what the army needed.

Before the Finnish war, there was still some kind of "fermentation", after it no longer. After it, the High Command realized that they needed tanks with good armor and excellent maneuverability, and it was not for nothing that one of the test stages in 40 was carried out on the Mannerheim line barriers.

[mat-vey]

Quote: John22

The West abandoned the wheeled-tracked movers, and the NGOs held on to it until 1939

What can you say for the production of Hatfield steel in the USSR?

[vladcub]

Unfortunately, some people still love this theory.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: John22

Forgot to mention Tsyganov. He also worked at the Kharkov Design Bureau and created the BT-SV-2 "Turtle" tank with very sloping armor. He was also repressed.

But before that I managed to write a denunciation on Firsov, and on the management of the plant as a whole.

... the production was delayed due to: the pest Firsov, the former head of the design bureau at the KhPZ plant, where it was transferred by the pest Neiman, the former head of the Special Mastrest; at the factory number 48 (Kharkov), where those. The director was the wrecker-fascist Simsky, who dragged the fascist Gakkel to plant No. 48 and placed him at the head of BT-IS production. ... Farmanyants - Deputy Head of the 8th Ch..Upr.NKOP tried to disrupt the release of BT-IS. ... your intervention is needed

© letter "On pests in the manufacture of BT-IS" by military technician of the 2nd rank N.F. Tsyganov. Sent to the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) comrade. Stalin and comrade. Voroshilov October 26, 1937

[Octopus]

Quote: svp67

The trouble was that the designers could, at their request, spend the days allotted for specific projects.

What's the trouble? Did they shove them offshore?

Quote: svp67

Korolev for what suffered? Just for that.

Of course for that. Not that the chiefs of NII 3 turned out to be the Trotskyists as one, starting with Tukhachevsky, the patron of this organization.

Quote: svp67

missing surname Dick Adolf Yakovlevich

Another enemy of the people.

[svp67]

Quote: Octopus

What's the trouble? Did they shove them offshore?

They were ordered to a certain project, which was expected for testing and possible acceptance into service, and they satisfied their "design itch", spending money on the implementation of new ideas ... This is called misuse of funds

[Octopus]

Quote: svp67

They were ordered a certain project, which was expected for testing and possible acceptance into service, and they satisfied their "design itch"

So what?
You have not heard anything about the work on an initiative basis? Did you take money from them from the nightstand? This we are not talking specifically about the Queen, who didn’t do her telecontrol on an initiative basis, but according to a work plan approved by the director of the Scientific Research Institute Kleimenov, an enemy of the people, Hero of Labor posthumously.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Octopus

You have not heard anything about the work on an initiative basis? Did you take money from them from the nightstand?

The problem is that the 30s designers did not take initiative projects after completing the main order, but instead. The customer allocated money for a guided missile - but received ... received nothing - no money, no rocket. And the most annoying thing is that there will be no rocket, the Contractor knew long before the deadline for the project (control system - yok), but the Customer did not notify about it.

[Octopus]

Quote: Alexey RA

The Contractor knew long before the deadline for the project (management system - yok), but the Customer did not notify.

1. And what? Which research institute 3 cares about the problems of allies? Why is the customer not aware of it himself?
2. And who in NII 3 is responsible for the work plan? Really Korolev with Glushko? Or is it still the chief engineer Langemak, another hero of labor posthumously?
3. By the way, what kind of problems do the allies have? They weren’t shot by the hour?
4. What is the fuss about? If you count on Katyusha shots?

[ser56]

Quote: Alexey RA

Designers of the 30s did not do projects after completing the main order, but instead

Grabin described the system well in his book - the chief accountant of the plant helped him ...

[svp67]

Quote: Octopus

You have not heard anything about the work on an initiative basis?

I heard, but they were paid from the fund of the enterprise, and even here everything had its own framework, at some point, I still had to ask permission and money from the ministry. But this is not about the Queen. At that moment, he generally abandoned the apparatus ordered to him for the construction and took up another machine.

[Octopus]

Quote: svp67

At that moment, he generally abandoned the apparatus ordered to him for the construction and took up another machine.

You should check your version with the version of Aleksey RA. According to him, Korolev was engaged in the approved work, which was corrupted by the allied, and Korolev, allegedly, caused damage to the state, without abandoning it immediately.

One of the aspects of these KGB excuses is the attempt to personally otmazatsya from the case of the Queen, after all our everything. That is, the Queen was judged on economic matters, and his immediate superiors Kleimenov and Langemak were purely accidentally shot for the Trotskyite conspiracy, just coincidentally coincided in time.

[svp67]

Quote: Octopus

That is, the Queen was judged on economic matters, and his immediate superiors Kleimenov and Langemak were purely accidentally shot for the Trotskyite conspiracy, just coincidentally coincided in time.

No, they were all judged by political articles in the spirit of that time. But the reason was precisely their "sabotage work".
Yes, and you are right, in the attitude that "swept away" then many, this gave "weight" to their "counter-revolutionary activities", allowing this to be interpreted as a whole conspiracy, headed by just Kleymenov and Langemak ... whom they recalled proximity to Tukhachevsky

[Octopus]

Quote: svp67

But the reason was precisely their "sabotage work".

How interesting you have formulated.

You're right, the creation of rocket-propelled guards mortars was pure sabotage. The USSR could neither make properly, nor afford economically such a weapon. The USSR, very poor in gunpowder and high-quality shells, spent resources for the production of both on fireworks. Despite the fact that 3 "artillery, for example, which was urgently needed, including both tank and anti-tank, fired cast-iron grenades of the Nikolaev times, equipped with almost makhorka.

Shot them on the armored targets.

You are not right, to the comrades-in-charge of the sabotage activities of NII 3 to the bulb. It is said - the Trotskyists, then the Trotskyists. And who else could be the people appointed to positions by the Trotskyist Tukhachevsky?

[Octopus]

Quote: Alexander72

And on the other hand, you understand that if it were not for these "efforts" of the NKVD, then many of our designers of military equipment and weapons (and not only) would continue to toil with foolishness

There is no way to understand this without a fellow operative officer.

Quote: Alexander72

scamming at each other

What an interesting expression "designers scribbled denunciations". Denunciations where?

Quote: Alexander72

in a fight for funding and awards with orders, but it would have stood.

Well this is necessary. Designers - grave-workers and loafers. As soon as comrade Ezhov was shot, that’s all, the Soviet military-industrial complex was killed. And when comrade Beria was shot, and there was nothing to remember.

Quote: Alexander72

It’s enough to recall Taubin, who promised a lot of things, but didn’t,

And why does Taubin deal with the department of comrade Beria, and not comrade Vannikov, in which he works?

Quote: Alexander72

our promising fighters in that war were left without a 23-mm air gun

Why the hell is she?

Quote: Alexander72

Tupolev, who finally took up his mind only in "sharashka"

And before that, Tupolev, as we already know, fought for funding and awards with orders, but it was. And scammers, scammers scribbled, but more!

Quote: Alexander72

Naturally, one of them was very unlucky - they were shot

Not rushing so not rushing. Ce la vie.

Quote: Alexander72

shot, not to say that it’s not entirely for the cause

In the golden foundation of the ax.

Quote: Alexander72

Others, sitting in "sharags", handed out equipment to the mountain, on which the Red Army won and eventually entered Berlin.

Liberated Europe, yes.

Quote: Alexander72

Koshkin managed to organize the work of the OKB and, as they would say now, make a presentation of the tank before the command of the Red Army and the country's leadership.

I read, it seems, from Svirin, another assessment of his work.

Valenok, in the work did not understand a shisha. But his connections in Moscow, which covered KB from the interest of Comrade Comrade’s employees Beria, plus well-resolved everyday issues of subordinates. At that time - really a treasure, not a boss.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Octopus

What an interesting expression "designers scribbled denunciations". Denunciations where?

They did not exchange for trifles - "in the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) comrade Stalin and comrade Voroshilov."

Quote: Octopus

And why does Taubin deal with the department of comrade Beria, and not comrade Vannikov, in which he works?

But on this issue, the department, the department of Comrade Beria, already dealt with citizen Vannikov.
And with Taubin, everything is simple - his business was transferred to the NKVD after he, with his actions (or rather, inaction), thwarted a plan for producing at least two types of serial aircraft.

[Octopus]

Quote: Alexey RA

"in the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) to Comrade Stalin and Comrade Voroshilov"

And so Stalin and Voroshilov how? They didn’t approve, I suppose?

Quote: Alexey RA

But on this issue, the department, the department of Comrade Beria, already dealt with citizen Vannikov.

And why is it with a citizen, formerly Comrade Vannikov, who understands the department of Comrade. Beria? Hero of social labor with three times Hero of social labor?

[Lopatov]

Quote: Alexander72

Suffice it to recall Taubin

... to understand that the NKVD did everything to weaken the USSR before the war.
That's where the real enemies of the people sat ...
The harm from their "activities" was simply gigantic.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Spade

... to understand that the NKVD did everything to weaken the USSR before the war.

Mmmm ... that is, the NKVD abandoned the work of finalizing the 23-mm guns to mass production? Or he promised a light 12,7 mm machine gun and a 37 mm avia gun, spent time and money - and didn’t give anything?

According to Ilyushin’s planes, it’s known for sure - because of the failure to deliver M-6 guns and disruptions in the supply of ShVAK guns (which replaced the Taubin guns with IL-2 before entering a large series of VY guns), 146 vehicles got stuck in the plant with varying degrees of readiness. Exactly half of the number that was available on July 1, 1941.
Further, about LaGG-3 - in total, the MP-6 guns were to receive cars from the 4th (partially) to the 13th factory series - this means 85 cars. Plus, the machines from the 1st to the 4th (partially) factory series (35 cars) received only machine guns due to the non-delivery of VY.
(factory series should not be confused with industrial ones - that is, LaGG-3 of the 4th factory series is not LaGG-3 of the 4th series)
For the retrofitting of these machines, they removed the underwing 12,7mm machine guns from the Mig-3
In total, about a quarter of the available Lugg-3 did not have time to fly to the front in the summer and fall or were not mastered by the pilots due to a two-three-month delay in readiness

© fvl_01

And I still don’t remember the dream of reason and the technologist’s nightmare - Taubin’s automatic grenade launcher.

So if he created the AGS. He created a 60 kg bulky box powered by a non-removable store for 5 shots :-)
Which at the same time recharged only STANDING :-)
Moreover, the calculation had 30 shots with itself (as one snail to the AGS which weighs less :-)

© fvl_01

[Octopus]

Quote: Alexey RA

Or he promised a light 12,7 mm machine gun and a 37 mm avia gun, spent time and money - and didn’t give anything?

What's the problem? You discovered the truth that a huge part of the OCD does not even live to the stage of layout or what?

[Liam]

If Soviet cosmonautics and a nuclear missile shield would have blossomed if Comrade Brezhnev had shot everyone involved in the failure of the lunar program. And a colleague of the Republic of Armenia now would easily have proved with correct quotes how much people’s money had been wasted in vain on this business and even think about the aircraft carrier fleet and aviation scary how many admirals and aircraft designers could be shot with a clear conscience. And so in all areas of HX)

[Octopus]

Quote: Liam

if only Comrade Brezhnev had shot everyone involved in the failure of the lunar program.

In fact, the pest-repeaters Korolev and Glushko burned not a handful, as at that time, but a steamer of national money, promising the Soviet government ICBMs, and giving out R-7 instead. So they would not live to see the lunar program.

Yangel then did the ICBM for them. His, however, is also in expense, for the Nedelinsky start.
So the USSR would have remained without ICBMs at all.

And this is good.

Quote: Liam

About the carrier fleet and aviation it’s even scary to think how many admirals and aircraft designers could be shot with a clear conscience.

We have already discussed whom specifically comrade Yezhov and Beria were to be shot for the Big Fleet. So it really cost millions of lives.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Octopus

What's the problem? You discovered the truth that a huge part of the OCD does not even live to the stage of layout or what?

The problem is that this OCD was not lowered from above. The same 12,7-mm machine gun was included in the design bureau’s work plan on the initiative of Taubin himself, who came with him to Malenkov and the IVS and promised to make the machine gun twice as light and twice as fast.
That is, the KB lead-voucher vouched before the management for the success of the OCD.

[Octopus]

Quote: Alexey RA

The same 12,7 mm machine gun was included in the design bureau

That is, it was included in the KB work plan. What is the problem?

Quote: Alexey RA

Lapovodnik KB vouched before the leadership for the success of the OCD.

And who is responsible for technical policy for this guide? Maybe in vain comrade Does Stalin personally deal with all this?

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Octopus

That is, it was included in the KB work plan. What is the problem?

The problem is that this was not a GAU order, but Taubin’s own initiative. Which pierced it to the level of the Decree of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR and the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks.
Well look, man, no one pulled your tongue ... ©
And as a result, instead of a light belt-fed machine gun, Taubin issued a miracle-udo with store-fed meals and survivability of 150-200 shots. He began to remake it under the tape, began to make significant changes to the design documentation already at the production stage, and he broke all the deadlines. Some kind of deja vu, isn't it?

Quote: Octopus

And who is responsible for technical policy for this guide?

The most interesting thing is that the strings stretch to citizen Vannikov. Which not only shoved the AP-12,7 into production, but also requested 1,7 million rubles for the refinement of 18 machine guns before testing.

Three times, Taubin promised top management that he would certainly do better than others. And failed three times what he personally guaranteed.

[Octopus]

Quote: Alexey RA

The problem is that this was not a GAU order, but Taubin’s own initiative.

AND? Work is included in the order. Do you have to execute tasks GAU execution? In the USSR of the 41st year, seriously?

Quote: Alexey RA

The most interesting thing is that the strings stretch to citizen Vannikov.

Even Vannikov was not shot in vain. They gave the atomic project to the enemy of the people. And Nudelman at the same time.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Octopus

AND? Work is included in the order. Do you have to execute tasks GAU execution? In the USSR of the 41st year, seriously?

Report fraud. This is not so-so.
Soviet designers often banged strange wunderwafers - yes, yes. But one was caught on fake test results. Let's feel the difference. Taubin suffered not because he “didn’t do it,” but because he reported - they say, “I did it, everything is ready”.

© fvl_01

[Octopus]

The features of those years when decisions on important technological issues were sometimes developed by the incompetent authorities, and only on the basis of certain promises, contributed to the fact that some gun designers, out of a desire to "move forward," took the path that damaged the business and was dangerous for themselves. It happened with the designer Taubin, who was developing one of the designs of the 23-mm aircraft gun. [...] This gun was the best [...] if Taubin did not want to prematurely “show off” not only his achievements, but also those that he did not have. He did just that, declaring the underestimated weight, dimensions and recoil force of the gun and thereby achieving the highlight of his project. [...] The shortcomings themselves were eliminated hastily. At the same time, Taubin was guided mainly by the so-called “design intuition”, did not study or analyze the reasons for his failure, and his attempts to fulfill the promise were unsuccessful.

Who is to blame that people like Taubin became "indigenous" in the country's aviation armament? (And who writes these memoirs)))

Why was Taubin arrested and executed? After all, all his products were at the level of the best world designs. In some ways they were inferior, and in some ways they exceeded their competitors. Designer A.E. Nudelman lived in the same staircase with me, and we talked several times about the history of OKB-16. Alexander Emanuilovich well remembered the events of the 1930s – 1940s and eagerly talked about them. Regarding the arrest of Taubin, he said briefly that this was the work of Shpitalny and Co., and he abruptly changed the subject.

Maybe he’s right - they didn’t stand on ceremony with their competitors. But if the denunciation from OKB-15 had decided the matter, then surely the closure of the entire OKB-16 would have followed. However, this did not happen. Together with Taubin from OKB-16, only M.N. Baburin was arrested. The new head of OBK-16 was appointed Nudelman. Therefore, the version that the denunciation was written by one of his own people to whom Taubin’s departure was beneficial seems to be much more justified. We will be able to put all the dots over “i” when Taubin’s case is declassified.

Quote: Alexey RA

But on a fake test results came across one. Feel the difference.

Russian folk genre "why is it would have to shoot".

Taubin was shot administratively. The charge is 58th. Including 58-8

The commission of terrorist acts directed against representatives of the Soviet government or leaders of revolutionary workers and peasant organizations, and participation in the implementation of such acts, even by persons not belonging to the counter-revolutionary organization

He was innocent.

All.

[Alexey RA]

Taubin suffered not because he “didn’t do it,” but because he reported - they say, “I did it, everything is ready”. ©

[Lopatov]

Quote: Alexey RA

that is, this NKVD abandoned the work of finalizing the 23-mm guns to mass production?

It did everything so that these works were not resumed.
By shooting Taubin.
Without trial, already during the ongoing war.

Quote: Alexey RA

He created a 60 kg bulkhead

Actually, 46 kg.
And the "Maxim" on the Sokolov machine without ammunition, but with water, weighed 67.6 kg
And most actively applied. So it goes...

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Spade

It did everything so that these works were not resumed.

What kind of work? Taubin did not do anything to fine-tune the MP-6 in the time allotted to him. After six months of refinement during testing, the serial MP-6 gun worked worse than the experimental VY.

Not a single cannon produced by TWO factories passed acceptance. Zero pieces. Somehow they installed either 12 pieces on the planes, or 18 with negative results. And this was in March 1941. That actually caused the well-known "denunciation" of Taubin and pulled the whole chain.

Taubin kept repeating the same thing over and over: he made an extremely lightweight concept for store food, then during the production of an experimental batch he began to remake it for ribbon food, arranged a mess with CD, tape versions predictably refused to work, Taubin lost interest in them - and embarked on a new adventure.

The first sample of the design usually looks like a candy ... This is a masterpiece of lightness, grace, in some ways even simplicity. It comes out abruptly one by one some bright parameter from the TTZ - you wanted a 23 mm gun weighing about 53-55 kg. Great - here ... we made it - it weighs 40 kg. While everyone is stunned with happiness, the fallen jaws are picked up - well, another 9 ku is quickly added, the "system of continuous supply of shells" weighs, but these are trifles. Where does the filing come from? From the clip. True, there are still a lot of delays and the rate of fire is half that of TTZ, but how light, how compact (if you do not look at the weapons store). Well, we'll finish everything now, etc. not a cannon but a candy. Everything will be all. By the way, we designed different stores for her - for all occasions. Then the circus begins. A weapon with fascinating characteristics a priori becomes a favorite, the main thing is to bring it up. And here the fine-tuning of the original simple and elegant design turns into building knots, details and details on it. How from MP-3 with a rate of fire of 300 rpm made MP-6 at 600 rpm. Two additional and very complex assemblies were added to the existing weapon design, two versions of the clip were made, three versions of the magazines were created - and for different clips. A different type of case has been created. All this is complemented by the extreme administrative negligence that is the corporate identity of the KB. As an example: 2 23mm cannons are sent to Ilyushin for testing to be installed on the Il-2. Having already arrived at the design bureau and installed on the plane, it suddenly turns out that the right and left cannons are fed by different types of ammunition (different casings) and these casings are loaded into different clips - not interchangeable. To the roar of Ilyushin - how can you - the answer follows, and what's wrong with that - we are now improving everything, but for now, here you have other shells and clips for another gun ... While so test. And to pubs ... - shells and clips of the THIRD generation that are not suitable for either of the two guns that have already been supplied arrive at the design bureau.

© fvl_01

Quote: Spade

And the "Maxim" on the Sokolov machine without ammunition, but with water, weighed 67.6 kg
And most actively applied. So it goes...

But what, Maxim was eating from a non-removable store with a capacity like that of a DP? Let me remind you that the Taubin grenade launcher had a 30 round of ammunition. And a five grenade store.
It's just that everyone at the words "automatic grenade launcher" immediately presents AGS-17. And not the real AG-TB.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Spade

It did everything so that these works were not resumed.
By shooting Taubin.

Oh yes, the MP-6 Taubina was brought to mind by Nudelman.
But in order for it to work with power from the tape, Nudelman had to construct a new tape receiver and change the shot to 23x115. For with the original 23x152 the gun worked poorly, but not for long.

[vladcub]

Here the fun begins: how did they become real pests? How did it happen that Yagoda ,, Zakovsky, Frinovsky, Agranov, they all started under Dzerzhinsky and seemed to be decent, but did so much. In fact, because of them, now the NKVD is a synonym for terror

[Octopus]

Quote: vladcub

they all started under Dzerzhinsky and were seemingly decent

Strongly.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Spade

to understand that the NKVD did everything to weaken the USSR before the war.

Yes, in spite of the system, the NKVD won, in spite of the system, because such a kingdom was in the USSR, it only harmed. The fact that the border guards are the NKVD, that SMERSH is the NKVD is not counted, they harmed the NKVD and that’s it.

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

The fact that the border guards are the NKVD, that SMERSH is the NKVD is not counted, they harmed the NKVD and that’s it.

And what is wrong?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Octopus

And what is wrong?

Have you read this?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Quote: Spade
to understand that the NKVD did everything to weaken the USSR before the war.
Yes, in spite of the system, the NKVD won, in spite of the system, because such a kingdom was in the USSR, it only harmed. The fact that the border guards are the NKVD, that SMERSH is the NKVD is not counted, they harmed the NKVD and that’s it.

[Octopus]

Yes, I read it.
You pretend that you do not understand that the claims against the NKVD are not about the border guards (although there is also something to talk about, who is the border guard and who is VOHR). And SMERSH is basically Abakumov, the People’s Commissar of Defense. A unique person, by the way, was arrested by Stalin, and Malenkov was shot.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Octopus

You pretend that you do not understand that the claims to the NKVD

What nonsense! I fully understand the claims to the poor-quality work of a part of the NKVD, I do not understand the unreasonable, but simply wild scale of these claims to the entire NKVD.

Quote: Spade

... to understand that the NKVD did everything to weaken the USSR before the war.

Wow application, the NKVD was in charge of hundreds of thousands of armed people with considerable authority, millions of convicts, you can ruin a country without any war, but you pretend that you do not understand this.

Quote: Octopus

And SMERSH is basically Abakumov, the People’s Commissar of Defense. A unique person, by the way, was arrested by Stalin, and Malenkov was shot.

Well, since you consider it unique, you probably know a lot about it, but you just missed a real trifle:

Since January 1932, he worked in the organs of the OGPU — NKVD as a trainee in the economic department ... ... NKVD, NKVD, NKVD ... ... on February 25, 1941 he was appointed deputy People's Commissar of Internal Affairs of the USSR, and on July 19, 1941 at the same time and the head of the Department of special departments of the NKVD of the USSR (3rd Directorate of the GUGB of the NKVD of the USSR), which in July 1943 was transformed into SMERSH. On April 19, 1943 he was appointed to the post of head of the Main Directorate of Counterintelligence SMERSH and Deputy People's Commissar of Defense.

That's bad luck, until 1943 there is no NGO, and after 1943 SMERSH it is not an NGO! How, without knowing such things, to judge that time ?!

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

On April 19, 1943, he was appointed head of the Main Directorate of Counterintelligence SMERSH

So by this very order SMERSH was created. Why are you boiling?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

unreasonable, but simply wild scale of these claims to the entire NKVD.

Well done. If you do not want to recall the modern NKVD organizations, then there is the Russian Guard, recently discussed. Let 2/3 guard ZATO - nobody cares. What they do under cameras is interesting, even if it’s 1% of the staff.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Octopus

And SMERSH is basically Abakumov, the People’s Commissar of Defense.

Quote: Octopus

On April 19, 1943, he was appointed head of the Main Directorate of Counterintelligence SMERSH
So by this very order SMERSH was created. Why are you boiling?

This is how you skillfully rejected your stupid argument, that SMERSH was created on the basis of one of the NKVD departments, you countered with the words "by that order." Strong.

Quote: Octopus

Well done. If you do not want to recall the modern NKVD organizations, then there is the Russian Guard, recently discussed. Let 2/3 guard ZATO - nobody cares. What they do under cameras is interesting, even if it’s 1% of the staff.

What do you mean by that? What claim, all of a sudden, to just 1% of the NKVD? Then why the protection of this nonsense ?:

Quote: Spade

... to understand that the NKVD did everything to weaken the USSR before the war. This is where the real enemies of the people sat ...

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

SMERSH on the basis of one of the departments of the NKVD created

SMERSH - a specific organization created by a specific document.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

What claim, all of a sudden, to just 1% of the NKVD?

That people should not be shot only on the basis of a record of service in the NKVD in the military book. The personal guilt of a person in certain crimes should be established.

A similar concept was proposed for the SS in Nuremberg.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

The NKVD did everything to weaken the USSR before the war. This is where the real enemies of the people sat

User Lopatov somewhat simplifies. The NKVD was an organic element of the Stalinist version of Soviet power. Auxiliary element.

[Sahalinets]

Do you seriously think that the atmosphere of fear and denunciation created by the NKVD contributed to good work? What works best in prison? And how then did our defense industry function after the war?
But Hitler did not know! He would put Porsche in a concentration camp and he betrayed there was a Super Tiger! And Willy there, let him master the supersonic. And what would Mitchell do in jail ...

[Vladimir_2U]

Even if you believe in this Russophobic cliché, which is readily used by today's haters of Russia, including abroad, about the "atmosphere of fear and denunciation", do you seriously think that uncontrolled activities and unpunished blunders and acts of sabotage contribute to good work? Do you seriously consider all engineers and scientists to be angels? For a moment, the general designer of the design bureau is actually the director of a rather large office, why couldn't he steal stupidly? The designer could not have been fouled with "universal human values", especially Zionist and Anglophile values, at that time?

Quote: Sahalinets

He would put Porsche in a concentration camp and he betrayed there was a Super Tiger!

Yes gave your Porsche Super Tigers, without any jail. (hand face). It was better for Hitler to leave the Porsche on "cars for the people."

Quote: Sahalinets

And Willy there, let him master the supersonic.

And how, mastered?

Quote: Sahalinets

And what would Mitchell do in jail ...

He would have stolen, then he sat, and hardly in a sharaga. By the way, about sharagi, than Los Alamos is not a sharaga? Only with American scope and resources, and without convicts.

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

why is Los Alamos not a sharaga? Only with American scope and resources, and without convicts.

)))

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And how, mastered?

Yes

Quote: Vladimir_2U

It was better for Hitler to leave the Porsche on "cars for the people."

You are absolutely right. The tank industry is not a place for records, especially weight records.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

then do you seriously think that uncontrolled activities and unpunished mistakes and acts of sabotage contribute to good work?

Yes.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Do you seriously consider all engineers and scientists to be angels?

Yes. At least in comparison with the detectives Bykov and Shestakov.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

couldn’t he stupidly steal?

Of course not. What should he do with the 30s stolen from the USSR? Have you read the Golden Calf?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

could not be in your head fouled with "universal human values", especially the Zionist and Anglophile, at that time?

What's the problem? A third of the Manhattan project is contaminated with Zionist values, a third are Anglophile, the rest are Germans, and half of all third are communists. Nothing, they worked for a peace with sin in half.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Octopus

why is Los Alamos not a sharaga? Only with American scope and resources, and without convicts.
)))

Yeah, the most ridiculous, if you do not know about the very strict restrictions on movement and correspondence, for US-sharazhnikov. And a very sickly spade of a very sickly security service of all this.

Quote: Octopus

And how, mastered?

Yes

I do not have to take the nameless photo apart, but what relation does the plane, the earliest, of the late 50s, and most likely French, have to do with Willy, not sure, but probably Messerschmidt, mid-40s?

Quote: Octopus

Do you seriously consider all engineers and scientists to be angels?
Yes. At least in comparison with the detectives Bykov and Shestakov.

Everything is relative, everything! And the blue thief Alchen ("12 chairs"), in comparison with Chikatilo, is not even an angel, in general something unimaginably light, but it would be nice for him to sit.

Quote: Octopus

couldn’t he stupidly steal?
Of course not. What should he do with the 30s stolen from the USSR? Have you read the Golden Calf?

Yes, at least that would be stupid to sit on money, as an antagonist (likely) in the book. You can still remember Colonel Zakharchenko, with his "Gazelles" of money, but I remember the swindler Pavlenko, who was shot, by the way, on a political article, and who began his "career" just in the thirties.

Quote: Octopus

What's the problem? A third of the Manhattan project is contaminated with Zionist values, a third are Anglophile, the rest are Germans, and half of all third are communists. Nothing, they worked for a peace with sin in half.

Haha, about Zionism and Anglophilism is not bad, especially in light of the current parasitism of Israel in the United States, and British obscurity. But it’s more difficult with the Communists, but I remember that not everyone finished the honorable pension. And by the way, according to Solzh, there were enough people on the servicing of the Soviet A-project, and you also know, they finished in the shortest possible time. And it was by working for the cause of peace.

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

if you don’t know about very strict restrictions on movement and correspondence,

It is always fun to see how the Stalinists suddenly become extreme liberals. Los Alamos - Sharashka, freedom to Oppenheimer.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And a very sickly spade of a very sickly security service of all this.

There was treason from top to bottom. The demonic image of J.E. Hoover is greatly exaggerated by himself.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

but what relation does the plane, the earliest, of the late 50s, and most likely French, have to do with Willy, not sure, but probably Messerschmidt, mid-40s?

By the mid-40s, no, but to Willy has. Vika to the rescue. Or should you give supersonic sound in the 43rd?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

compared to Chikatilo, not even an angel, in general something unimaginably bright, but it would obviously be nice to sit for him.

Compared with the figures of those years, Andrei Romanovich is just a cute naughty man. And who is Alhen, who is stealing food from old women? Tupolev? Ginsburg? Landau? Vavilov?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Yes, at least, that would be stupid to sit on money, like an antagonist (probable) in a book.

General designer robbing KB to become an underground millionaire? And all the leading experts with him? What are your interesting ideas about people. Are you related to organs, do I understand correctly?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

sidelts at the service of the Soviet A-project

Yes, the heavenly USSR, which dreamers so often recall, like Samsonov, is just when great people sit behind bars and make atomic bombs there. Kim’s comrades realized something like this.

But the point was that for some reason, the most diverse views and nationalities did not interfere with AB. Or do you want to say that the Soviet people, the best of them, hated their country and refused to strengthen its defense?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Octopus

It is always fun to see how the Stalinists suddenly become extreme liberals. Los Alamos - Sharashka, freedom to Oppenheimer.

Pff, that is, there are no objections to the sharaga? It’s so normal for me to restrict privacy in order to ensure secrecy. And the Americans applied this restriction. And it is possible that without it, efficiency would have fallen.

Quote: Sahalinets

But Hitler did not know! He would put Porsche in a concentration camp and he betrayed there was a Super Tiger! And Willy there, let him master the supersonic.

Quote: Octopus

By the mid-40s, no, but to Willy has. Vika to the rescue. Or should you give supersonic sound in the 43rd?

An excellent argument, just lovely, well, so what claims to the Soviet designers that they were sitting in sharags, just all the way, in 43, supersonic did not master? Not only that, I also have to look for a "muddy" picture, strongly. The idiocy of the claim, (albeit not yours, but you got in) on supersonic under Hitler is not yet a reason to send Vicki, especially I am not defending this idiocy.

Quote: Octopus

Compared with the figures of those years, Andrei Romanovich is just a cute naughty man. And who is Alhen, who is stealing food from old women? Tupolev? Ginsburg? Landau? Vavilov?

In your opinion, only a stealing from old women is worthy of punishment by law? Between us, the Criminal Code, the current one, provides much more cases for prosecution, and even article 58, then, was quite applicable for fraudsters and thieves and even slobs.

Quote: Octopus

General designer robbing KB to become an underground millionaire?

The conditional general designer has such an opportunity, and if he takes advantage of it, he is a criminal, no matter what genius of construction he may be. What is not clear here?

Quote: Octopus

Are you related to organs, do I understand correctly?

So write, as if this is something bad, do not be afraid, even if you fall into my bloody knee-deep hands, there will be no bottle of champagne for you, ahaha! Genius findings, dig threshing ...

Quote: Octopus

this is just when great people sit behind bars and make atomic bombs there. Kim’s comrades realized something like this.

Well these are your words, and Solzh, I’m aware that Kurchatov and his comrades did not sit at all, but I’m not proud, but I’ll remind you:

Quote: Sahalinets

Do you seriously think that the atmosphere of fear and denunciation created by the NKVD contributed to good work? What works best in prison? And how then did our defense industry function after the war?

Actually, there was a claim that in sharaga, and this, even in the USSR, was not quite a prison, it was impossible to achieve anything worthwhile. So either no one was sitting, or everyone was sitting, but the result is at least no worse.

Quote: Octopus

But the point was that for some reason, the most diverse views and nationalities did not interfere with AB

It is you who are now attaching views and nationalities, for there is zero argumentation, and I wrote about Zionism and Anglophilism as hostile to the USSR, and modern Russia, "garbage" in my head, and this garbage could push and push on stupidity and even dirty tricks, oh transfer of information and say nothing.

Quote: Octopus

Or do you want to say that the Soviet people, the best of them, hated their country and refused to strengthen its defense?

I don’t need to ascribe this stupidity to me, huh? No, unless of course Solzh is considered the best of the Soviet people, then the picture is generally gloomy, for he called on the Americans to atomically bomb their own country and people. But Kurchatov, Beria and many thousands of Soviet people did everything so that Solzh's dreams did not come true, and you probably regret it.

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

that is, there are no objections to the sharaga?

Explain to you the differences z / to from a free person? What for? You are unlikely to understand them.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And it is possible that without it, efficiency would have fallen.

Ruled out. AB was stolen by the enemies of the United States almost online. Moreover, these were the very Soviet intelligence officers who, a couple of years before, had drawn the four 100mm armor and could not establish the staff of the German division.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Well, so what are the claims to Soviet designers that they sat in sharaby, all the same, just in 43, they did not master the supersonic sound?

You seem to be talking to yourself. I did not make any complaints against the Soviet aircraft designer. I just clarified that Willy mastered supersonic while at large. When the time has come.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

In your opinion, only a stealing from old women is worthy of punishment by law?

Well, you dragged Alkhen, no?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

even the 58th article, then, was fully applied to scammers and thieves and even slobs.

58-1. Any action aimed at overthrowing, undermining or weakening the power of the workers 'and peasants' councils and the ones elected by them, on the basis of the Constitution of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the constitutions of the Union republics, workers 'and peasants' governments of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, union and autonomous republics, or to undermine or weaken the external security of the Union, is recognized as counter-revolutionary. SSR and the main economic, political and national gains of the proletarian revolution.

People who applied this wording to scammers, thieves and even slobs - criminals. Every single one. And moral imperfection scammers, thieves and even slobs in this state of affairs does not change absolutely nothing.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

and if he takes advantage of it, then he is a criminal, no matter what genius of construction he may be. What is not clear here?

Firstly, you will not believe, most successful people tend to engage in their main activity, and not steal on trifles (by the way, what does "steal" mean? He sold rockets in the market, or what?). Secondly, if the only metal aircraft specialist in the country wants an American refrigerator, give him a refrigerator. What is the problem? What is this other topic of conversation, should Tupolev have a refrigerator in the country or not?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

So write as if it’s something bad, don’t be afraid,

It is somehow strange to be afraid of username, but the attitude towards people as to d is very characteristic. Therefore, citizens with a similar background per kilometer should not be allowed to power.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

I’m aware that Kurchatov and his comrades did not sit at all

How to say. Landau and Kapitsa had some problems in this regard.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

that in sharaga, and even in the USSR it was not a prison at all, it is impossible to achieve anything worthwhile. So either no one was sitting, or everyone was sitting, but the result is at least no worse.

The result is much worse, as it is easy to notice to anyone who is familiar with the history of the USSR. But yes, weapons can also be used for hunting. Unlike anything else.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

and I wrote about Zionism and Anglophilism as hostile to the USSR and modern Russia, "garbage" in my head

You wrote that people, whether Zionist or pro-British, can’t work for the defense of the USSR in the war with the Reich, except in prison. This is really rubbish, but exclusively in your head.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

But Kurchatov, Beria and many thousands of Soviet people did everything so that Solzh's dreams did not come true, and you probably regret it.

Solzhenitsin’s views are not close to me, but yes, I have many complaints about a wide variety of people.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Octopus

Explain to you the differences z / to from a free person? What for? You are unlikely to understand them.

That there, that there were restrictions on freedom, just of varying degrees, but you are unlikely to understand this.

Quote: Octopus

You seem to be talking to yourself. I did not make any complaints against the Soviet aircraft designer. I just clarified that Willy mastered supersonic while at large

And Tupolev mastered supersonic when the time came, and it didn’t hurt him to sit for a while. I just remind you that you defended this idiocy:

Quote: Octopus

Quote: Sahalinets
But Hitler did not know! He would put Porsche in a concentration camp and he betrayed there was a Super Tiger! And Willy there, let him master the supersonic.

Quote: Octopus

Well, you dragged Alkhen, no?

Well, you dragged the "Golden Calf"

Quote: Octopus

Secondly, if the only specialist in metal planes in the country wants an American refrigerator, give him a refrigerator.

Do you seriously think that Tupolev was the only one and sat down at the refrigerator ?! This is the meaning before you crucify! The fact that until the very last he fought for the corrugation, to the detriment of, among other things, defense capabilities, that he bought licenses through his ass in the States, to the detriment of, among other things, the country's finances, but what I mean ...

Quote: Octopus

People who apply this wording to scammers, thieves and even slobs are criminals. Every single one. And the moral imperfection of fraudsters, thieves and even slobs in this state of affairs does not change absolutely anything.

Oh, what big words, how much pathos, but is it appropriate? And here it is, decrease the degree:

58-6. Espionage i.e. transfer, abduction or collection for the purpose of transferring information, which in their content are specially protected state secrets, to foreign states, counter-revolutionary organizations or private individuals, ...
58-7. Undermining state industry, transport, trade, monetary circulation or credit system, as well as cooperation committed for counter-revolutionary purposes through the appropriate use of state institutions and enterprises, or opposing their normal activities, as well as the use of state institutions and enterprises or opposing their activities, done for former owners or interested capitalist organizationsentail ...
58-12. Failure to report a reliably known, impending or committed counter-revolutionary crime: from 6 months in prison.
58-14. Counterrevolutionary sabotage, those. deliberate failure by someone to fulfill certain duties or deliberately careless execution with the special purpose of weakening the power of the government and the activities of the state apparatus, entails ..

You can, of course, chew on the meaning and applicability of these articles to scammers, thieves and slovens, but "sapienti sat ..." ... And you just need to poke at the fact that you didn’t notice these points of the article.

Quote: Octopus

It is somehow strange to be afraid of username, but the attitude towards people as to d is very characteristic. Therefore, citizens with a similar background per kilometer should not be allowed to power.

He came up with it, he was scared himself! This is about you, if it is not clear. because:

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Genius findings, dig threshing ...

Quotes to tear you are not particularly shy. By the way, your like-minded person, whose idiocy you defended, would treat me harder, I won’t be surprised that right now:

Quote: Sahalinets

And let's plant you specifically? You will finally begin to work as it should ... What, do not want to?

This generally pulls direct bullying. Your like-minded person.

Quote: Octopus

How to say. Landau and Kapitsa had some problems in this regard.

They had problems with the law, and they were not the creators of the Soviet A-bomb.

Quote: Octopus

You wrote that people, whether Zionist, whether pro-British, cannot work for the defense of the USSR in the war with the Reich, except in prison

You brazenly breshet! I did not write this YOUR nonsense. I wrote that these people could merge and merge different data, that they could dirty and often dirty, that's what I wrote, and directly. And they had to work, often against their will.

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

What is there, what were the restrictions on freedom

Indeed, Magadan, a powdered paradise, in the case of the Queen, and Los Alamos differ only in climate. And the circumstances of getting people there do not play a role.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

it didn’t hurt him to sit for a while.

Another phrase in the golden foundation of the ax.

I completely agree with you. Any person who was related in the USSR, especially to his development, would do well to sit. Better lie down. Therefore, I really love the NKVD, although I often write nasty things about them. This is loving.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

dragged the Golden Calf

This work quite adequately shows the difference between consumer society and the mobilization economy of the USSR of the 30s.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Do you seriously think that Tupolev was the only one and sat down at the refrigerator ?!

No, what are you. There, all the design bureaus moved to the department of Comrade. Beria. But this is right, I will not argue.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And it’s enough to poke you into the fact that you didn’t notice these paragraphs of the article so nicely.

The first paragraph of the article just explains the content of the offense. Everything else is a clause written by a sick imagination of the legislator.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Undermining ... money circulation or the credit system,

Neither you nor the legislator understand what is written here.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

By the way, your like-minded person, whose idiocy you defended, would have treated me harder

Firstly, I am quite able to express my thoughts on my own. You should not attribute to me strangers.
Second, the

Quote: Vladimir_2U

would treat me harder

I’m somehow not sure that you understand my position and his well.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

I did not write this YOUR nonsense. I wrote that these people could merge and merge different data, that they could dirty and often dirty, that's what I wrote, and directly. And they had to work, often against their will.

In fact, this is exactly what you are writing, and this is not the first time. That all these people - Tupolev, Petlyakov, Korolev with Glushko, and many others, were ready to give at least Hitler to the USSR to harm the Soviet regime. You rarely see such people in the White movement.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Octopus

Indeed, Magadan, a powdered paradise, in the case of the Queen

There were no scumbags on Magadan, Korolev practically didn’t work on rocket subjects, was released in 44, was promoted to colonel. However, during the review of the case, he was not released, as many convicted of false accusations and accusations, received a sentence of 46 g. When the peak of repression was generally passed and was accused of creating inapplicable weapons. For a state account, he developed a homing missile, without at least some malomalsky working GOS. In fact, he is sorry, but formally he is guilty. And his then developments in the war gave nothing to the country.

Quote: Octopus

Quote: Vladimir_2U
it didn’t hurt him to sit for a while.
Another phrase in the golden foundation of the ax.
I completely agree with you. Any person who was related in the USSR, especially to his development, would do well to sit,.

You already began to tear up phrases, completely distorting the meaning,

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And Tupolev mastered supersonic when the time came, and it didn’t hurt him to sit for a while.

but nobody reads us already, and you can’t deceive me and don’t dust your brains with a cheap trick.

Quote: Octopus

dragged the Golden Calf
This work quite adequately shows the difference between consumer society and the mobilization economy of the USSR of the 30s.

What a news! The book shows, in a comic form, the impossibility of spending money obtained by criminal means, any other, near-criminal ... but you saw the mobilization economy! Where is the "hand face" emoticon, how it is missing!

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Octopus

Do you seriously think that Tupolev was the only one and sat down at the refrigerator ?!
No, what are you. There, all the design bureaus moved to the department of Comrade. Beria. But this is right, I will not argue.

And again the phrase is torn out, and your own, fu do it. This is after all about the only specialist, and not the only one crouched, so, it seems, no?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Secondly, if the only specialist in metal planes in the country wants an American refrigerator, give him a refrigerator.
Do you seriously think that Tupolev was the only one and sat down at the refrigerator?

Quote: Octopus

There, all the design bureaus moved to the department of Comrade. Beria. But this is right, I will not argue.

Why is this nonsense? Not all, but only those whom the "hero of the day" himself))) remembered !:

Wouldn’t it turn out that, according to my list, they will still put God knows how many people? Upon reflection, I decided to rewrite all those I know, but I knew all. It cannot be that the entire aircraft industry is transplanted? This position seemed reasonable to me, and I wrote a list of 200 people. And what do you think, it turned out that, with rare exceptions, they are all behind bars! ”

Although about the entire aviation industry, of course Tupolev froze.

Quote: Octopus

The first paragraph of the article just explains the content of the offense. Everything else is a clause written by a sick imagination of the legislator.

Judging by the clever word you put in - "clause" you know, you are an international lawyer, but even to me not a lawyer at all, it is clear that the first paragraph of Article 58 is actually a preamble.

Quote: Octopus

58-1. Any action aimed at overthrowing, undermining or weakening the power of the workers 'and peasants' councils and those elected by them, on the basis of the Constitution of the USSR, is recognized as counter-revolutionary.

The word is clever but the one who considers these points and many others:

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Espionage i.e. transfer, abduction or collection for the purpose of transferring information

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Failure to report a reliably known, impending or committed counter-revolutionary crime

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Counter-revolutionary sabotage, i.e. deliberate non-performance by someone of certain duties or intentionally careless performance of them for a special purpose

clauses written by the sick imagination of the legislator Is it completely healthy? For me it’s not so, either depicts itself as such.

Quote: Octopus

Quote: Vladimir_2U
Undermining ... money circulation or the credit system,
Neither you nor the legislator understand what is written here.

Well, of course, how do we, me and the legislator, before your flight of thought. And we are also far from the imagination of the Chechens, with their false advice notes, as far as the moon, to the pyramids a la Khoper, to the permission for industrial non-cash settlement of accounts for "cooperators" to buy real values, but for the artificial bankruptcy of strategic enterprises and their subsequent destruction of interested parties together with families to the wall you need to put!

Quote: Vladimir_2U

or opposition to their normal activities, as well as the use of state institutions and enterprises or opposition to their activities, ... ... or interested capitalist organizations, entail

Yes, the real seer wrote this paragraph! You, with your judgment to him as a cockroach to a walking excavator, excuse me

Quote: Octopus

By the way, your like-minded person, whose idiocy you defended, would have treated me harder
Firstly, I am quite able to express my thoughts on my own. You should not attribute to me strangers.

You uphold with this

Quote: Sahalinets

And let's plant you specifically?

one position, you defended his stupidity with supersonic,

Quote: Octopus

I’m somehow not sure that you understand my position and his well.

Finally, this, and you are not like-minded? To your credit, you didn’t scare me with landings, it’s like that. But your like-minded person is easy, and on the most serious cabbage soup.

Quote: Octopus

That all these people - Tupolev, Petlyakov, Korolev with Glushko, and many others, were ready to give at least Hitler to the USSR to harm the Soviet regime.

And you, time after time, repeat this lie. I wrote about Anglophiles and Zionists, and you drag people accused, rightly or not, of embezzlement and sabotage. Whether by stupidity or by their self-confidence, but formally they are criminals.
And in general, you and your like-minded person all who were convicted under 58 and similar articles, it seems, consider innocent angels, but this is utter nonsense. In your opinion, it turns out that all scientists or engineers, in principle, could not commit crimes, but even now, scientists and engineers are being caught and imprisoned for espionage. And does it really matter whether they hide behind ecology, or something else. And the story with the Proton sensor, hammered backwards, what do you think? Children's cry on the lawn?

Quote: Octopus

I’m somehow not sure that you understand my position and his well.

Quote: Octopus

Solzhenitsin’s views are not close to me, but yes, I have many complaints about a wide variety of people.

Sorry, but that he poured mud on the USSR, that you adhere to the same position, and this is the position of the enemies of the USSR, it is no longer, no matter how sorry, this is the position of the enemies of today's Russia.

Quote: Octopus

The result is much worse, as it is easy to notice to anyone who is familiar with the history of the USSR. But yes, weapons can also be used for hunting.

Significantly worse than what result? ZK was used to a limited extent, where far from the liberties could be lured, far from the entire engineering community was sitting in sharagi, as you are promoting here, even if you recall some of the presenters.

Quote: Octopus

cannot work for the defense of the USSR in the war with the Reich, except in prison.

Not over nonsense, where about the war with the Reich, I wrote, in the context of the labor of prisoners? Poke my nose!

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

There were no sharashka on Magadan

Did not have. Was Korolev?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

accused of including the creation of inapplicable weapons

Who better than the prosecutor to know which weapons are applicable and which are not.
Korolev is the head of the group of rocket-planes and cruise missiles. Me-163 flew in the 41st, V-1 - in the 42nd.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

but formally he is guilty

June 28, 1938 the NKVD of the USSR for belonging to the Trotskyist, wrecking organization, acting at the research institute No. 3 (NKB USSR), the former engineer of the said institute Sergey Pavlovich was arrested and prosecuted.
During the investigation, Korolev found himself guilty of the fact that he was involved in the Trotskyite-wrecking organization in 1935 by the former technical director of research institute No. 3 Langemak (convicted).
On the instructions of the anti-Soviet organization, Korolev carried out wrecking work to disrupt the development and commissioning of new weapons of the Red Army
(ld 21-35, 53-55; 66-67, 238-239).

Stories of mother's Stalinists that in fact, he was tried for the case, and Trotskyism was simply copied from habit I already heard.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

For a government account, he developed a homing missile, without at least some malomalski working GSN

In this case, the lies of political officers are successfully supplemented by your illiteracy.

In 1936, he led the development of a powder winged torpedo; knowing in advance that the main parts of this torpedo — devices with photocells — for controlling a torpedo and aiming it at a target, cannot be manufactured by a central wire communication laboratory,

From this description comrade a prosecutor at a reader like you faces the Soviet Stalin Helfair. In reality, there was no question of pointing at the target. Rocket 06, which Korolev worked on in the 36th year, did not fly 200 meters during the tests (and who did it fly more in the 36th year?). The task of the control system on photocells is to distinguish the bright sky from the dark earth and provide the product with a relatively horizontal flight through the control of the planes. The distortion with the photocells was invented only because the Soviet industry did not master much of the normal way — the gyroscope. But in general, the Queen didn’t give a damn, the photocells there or, I don’t know, AFAR. Its task is to develop a scheme for the use of control planes in the CR.
The same problem at the stage of developing SD was solved by both Germans and Americans. Regardless of the type of SU. This task belongs to the glider, and not to the SU, and yes, this is a separate serious task. How to achieve that the brainless piece of iron just flew forward, and not up or down.
It was such tasks that it was time to solve in the late 30s. As the Germans decided from the 33rd year. Americans yes, Americans joined in the 42nd and went this way in a couple of years. But not everyone is lucky to be born Americans.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

You already began to tear up phrases, completely distorting the meaning,

What is the distortion of meaning?
Andrei Nikolaevich Tupolev, who did so much for the Soviet country, slept for 4 years on the bunk on the following charges:

The Tupolev case of A. N. Launched on January 7, 1938, January 1939, 4 days, senior investigator of the NKVD investigative unit, State Security Lieutenant Esipenko, having examined the investigation case No. 14415 on charges of A. N. Tupolev under Art. 58 p. 6, 7, 9, 11 * of the Criminal Code of the RSFSR, found:
... At present, evidence has been received from the arrested Nekrasov and Walter, incriminating Tupolev as one of the leaders of terrorist activities in the counter-revolutionary Cadet-Fascist organization that existed in Moscow and called itself the Russian-fascist party. Tupolev was arrested on October 21.10.37, 3. He was awarded 29 Orders of Lenin, Orders of the Red Star and the Red Banner of Labor. The son of a landowner. The head of the design bureau of NAGI, deputy director of TsAGI, lives: 33 Kalyaevskaya street, apt. XNUMX.
Tupolev grouped anti-Soviet people in TsAGI, created an anti-Soviet organization and engaged in wrecking work in the field of aviation industry

*58.1. Any action aimed at overthrowing, undermining or weakening the power of the Workers 'and Peasants' Soviets and existing on the basis of the Constitution of the RSFSR is recognized as counter-revolutionary. Workers 'and Peasants' Government, as well as actions in the direction of assistance to that part of the international bourgeoisie that does not recognize the equality of the communist property system that is replacing capitalism and seeks to overthrow it through intervention or blockade, espionage, financing the press, etc.

Counter-revolutionary is also recognized as such an action which, not being directly aimed at achieving the above goals, however, knowingly for the perpetrator, contains an attempt on the main political or economic achievements of the proletarian revolution.
58.6. Participation in an organization acting for the purposes referred to in Article 58.1 of this Code by inciting the population to mass unrest, tax evasion and failure to fulfill duties or by any other means to the detriment of the dictatorship of the working class and the proletarian revolution, even if an armed uprising or armed invasion was the immediate task of this organization,
58.7. Counteraction to the normal activities of state institutions and enterprises or their appropriate use for the destruction and undermining of state industry, trade and transport, in order to carry out the actions provided for in article 58.1 (economic counter - revolution)
58.9. Organization for counter - revolutionary purposes of destruction or damage by an explosion, arson, or other means of railway or other means of communication, means of public communication, water pipes, public warehouses and other structures or structures, as well as participation in the execution of these crimes
58.11. Active actions or active struggle against the working class and the revolutionary movement, manifested in responsible or highly secret posts under the tsarist regime or with counter-revolutionary governments during the civil war

Is it good?

Of course it’s good, I will answer. Good but not enough. The man who served one of the most abominable regimes in human history deserves much more. (Is condescension to Tupolev possible? Yes, it is possible. Tupolev served 4 out of his 15 years, Messerschmitt - two)

But is this reasonable from a military point of view? Did this interfere with his work as an aircraft designer?

And so it goes - you answer. Apparently, you hate the Soviet regime even more than me, colleague. I would support both the arrest and the execution of Tupolev, but after the war, and not before.

Like Shakhurina.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

but you saw a mobilization economy!

Exactly. The actual abandonment of the free circulation of consumer goods (and food) in the name of the development of military industries. Already in the late 20s. Reich lived up to the year 43rd, EMNIP.

That is how the USSR won in that war.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Octopus

There were no sharashka on Magadan
Did not have. Was Korolev?

Was, and what? He was accused and convicted, and according to the testimony of Kleimenov and Langemak, by the way !.

Quote: Octopus

that in fact, he was tried for the case, and Trotskyism was simply copied by habit, as I already heard.

Korolev, it turns out obviously knew about the impossibility of using this missile in military affairs, but in any case:

In 1936, he led the development of a powder winged torpedo; knowing in advance that the main parts of this torpedo are devices with photocells - for controlling a torpedo and pointing it at a target, cannot be manufactured by the central laboratory of wire communication, .... tests of four torpedoes built by the Royal showed their complete unsuitability, which caused damage to the state in the amount of 120 000 rubles and delayed the development of other more relevant topics

And it’s absolutely the same if the f-elements would do the work of pointing (you basically don’t understand what it was about) or stabilization work. And by the way, this is your stupid passage, moreover;

Quote: Octopus

The task of the control system on photocells is to distinguish the bright sky from the dark earth and provide the product with a relatively horizontal flight through the control of the planes. The distortion with the photocells was invented only because the Soviet industry did not master much of the normal way — the gyroscope.

Have you come up with this idiocy? Those. at night this rocket can’t be launched at all, or what? Great weapon for the Red Army! How there Zhorozh Miloslavsky said about Bunshu ...

Quote: Octopus

In this case, the lies of political officers are successfully supplemented by your illiteracy.

wonderful, wonderful reason to ride on YOUR ignorance and I’m not even afraid of this word of stupidity !! The relative track and vertical stability of unmanned aircraft, and without any instruments, was available even to pioneers in aircraft circles! Gyroscopes were used with might and main both in Aubrey devices and in autopilots, yes, in the USSR there were autopilots in 36 g! Or maybe the Germans used PV in the stabilization system? Well, look, poke my nose. That's really stupid! FE as an element of autopilot !!!

Quote: Octopus

Korolev is the head of the group of rocket-planes and cruise missiles. Me-163 flew in the 41st, V-1 - in the 42nd.

And what is the military value of these machines? No! How many Me-163s shot down aircraft? 400 aircraft shot down as many as 9 (16) aircraft, but they killed more of their pilots! What is the military value of the V-1, as well as the V-2 without nuclear weapons? Only terrorist! Shoot in the direction of London, you look and kill someone. 25000 missiles with a ton of explosives each, so what? 8000 killed and 17000 wounded civilians in Britain? A lot, but Germany didn’t help either!

Quote: Octopus

Its task is to develop a scheme for the use of control planes in the Kyrgyz Republic

What a stupidity !!! Not Korolev, no! His KR according to the airplane scheme! And control by airplane scheme! Although ailerons, even all-turning planes, but at least what can be applied, what is used on airplanes, do you understand this?

Quote: Octopus

How to achieve that the brainless piece of iron just flew forward, and not up or down.
It was such tasks that it was time to solve in the late 30s. ..

Well, dullness and absolute ignorance of the subject! All the creators of the Kyrgyz Republic and just missiles fought to increase the accuracy of the hit! ACCURACY! Reducing the CVO at least tells you something? Prior to the creation of nuclear weapons and sufficiently accurate guidance systems, all FAA and Soviet KR were militarily insignificant, and especially Korolev’s KR, with 30 kg of payload against a ton of the FAA.

Quote: Octopus

But in general, the Queen didn’t give a damn, the photocells there or, I don’t know, AFAR

It seems to you exactly no difference.
And attention! FE in missile guidance! It was planned! Use! I was personally surprised to learn that the SEC was working on an anti-aircraft missile with guidance on the spotlight! And these works successfully failed. So the investigation may not have been very competent, but knew more about the case than you.

Quote: Octopus

Rocket 06, on which Korolev worked in the 36th year, did not fly 200 meters during the tests (and who did it fly more in the 36th year?)

Yes, anyone, at the same Korolev RD in 33 g. Flew 150 m. Von Braun, in those same years, launched his missiles at 2 km, and in height. You don’t know a damn thing about this topic, and don’t understand. And you certainly understand less than the investigation in the Korolev case.

Quote: Octopus

Andrei Nikolaevich Tupolev, who did so much for the Soviet country, slept for 4 years on the bunk on the following charges:

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Secondly, if the only specialist in metal planes in the country wants an American refrigerator, give him a refrigerator.
Do you seriously think that Tupolev was the only one and sat down at the refrigerator?

What does it have to do with what article he "slept" under, a good word, by the way, perfectly shows your true attitude towards those who were sitting. You wrote as if Tupolev was the only specialist and sat down at the refrigerator, and for the second time you misinterpret the meaning of your own phrase.

Quote: Octopus

Tupolev grouped anti-Soviet people in TsAGI, created an anti-Soviet organization and engaged in wrecking work in the field of aviation industry
58.6. Participation in an organization operating for the purposes referred to in Article 58.1 of this Code by arousing the population to mass unrest, non-payment of taxes and non-fulfillment of duties...
58.7. Counteraction to the normal activities of state institutions and enterprises or their appropriate use for the destruction and undermining of state industry, trade and transport ..
58.9. Organization for counter - revolutionary purposes of destruction or damage by an explosion, arson or other means of railway or other means of communication, ...

Why did you shove such a piece of dough? Do you understand those that any state, any regime will subscribe to these articles, it is worth replacing the words "counter-revolutionary" with "extremist" or "anti-constitutional"? And the fact that Tupolev was dissolving his language before his release is well known, and his chatter in the circle of "like-minded people" may well be defined as "organization and agitation." And his activities, before the deadline, significantly hampered the development of bomber aviation in the USSR. So the term was good, if not Tupolev, then the country for sure.

Quote: Octopus

but you saw a mobilization economy!
Exactly. The actual abandonment of the free circulation of consumer goods (and food) in the name of the development of military industries.

And again a torn quote! Not to mention at least some understanding of the book! Where did you see the lack of food turnover there? What is this "free circulation of food" ?! Ate, pooped, eaten again, or what? You no longer understand what you are fence. Re-read the book! Koreiko and Bender could not spend the stolen money on luxury goods, and even then, only because they could not prove the legality of their origin! This is not the current "unemployed" on the "Maybachs" from whom millions are pulled out of their bags, but you do not understand this, or pretend that you do not understand.

Quote: Octopus

The man who served one of the most abominable regimes in human history deserves much more.

Yes, it is already clear that the regime that gave the Russian, and not only, the working man to breathe freely, and gave his children childhood, gave hope to people of labor and science, including all over the world hope for the best and showed the powers that be without them " chosenness "normal life and development are possible, and what kind of development, the regime that ground Nazism and brought humanity into space - for you and people like you" is one of the most disgusting regimes in human history. "

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

This is after all about the only specialist, and not the only one crouched, so, it seems, no?

In relation to metal planes, these are Tupolev, Petlyakov and Myasishchev. Yes, everyone is sitting. Actually, the Tupolev Design Bureau was the main for metal planes in the USSR. Actually, below you quote it yourself.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Not all, but only those whom the "hero of the day" himself))) remembered !:

You mean that the Soviet aircraft industry Tupolev personally transferred to the People’s Commissariat of Beria? Oh well

Quote: Vladimir_2U

clauses written by the sick imagination of the legislator

Exactly.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Well, of course, how do we, me and the legislator, before your flight of thought. And we are also far from the imagination of the Chechens, with their false advice notes, as far as the moon, to the pyramids a la Khoper, to the permission for industrial non-cash settlement of accounts for "cooperators" to buy real values, but for the artificial bankruptcy of strategic enterprises and their subsequent destruction of interested parties together with families to the wall you need to put!

What are your interesting associations with the USSR of the 30s.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Yes, the real seer wrote this paragraph! You, with your judgment to him as a cockroach to a walking excavator, excuse me

This is certain.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

To your credit, you didn’t scare me with landings, it’s like that.

How to tell you. I am not a supporter of empty threats to strangers. But this does not say anything about my position.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Not over nonsense, where about the war with the Reich, I wrote, in the context of the labor of prisoners? Poke my nose!

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And you, time after time, repeat this lie. I wrote about Anglophiles and Zionists, and you drag people accused, rightly or not, of embezzlement and sabotage.

I am not going to look for you Anglophiles and Zionists in Soviet sentences. Tupolev, for example, was a French and German spy, as far as I remember, that is, not an Anglophile or a Zionist, but this is pure coincidence. However, I declare that, for example, Churchill was an Anglophile. Worse, he was an enemy of Soviet power. But this did not stop Churchill from helping the USSR fight with the Reich while at large. Less than Comrade would like Stalin, but much more than was reasonable from the point of view of English interests. While.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

The designer could not have been fouled with "universal human values", especially Zionist and Anglophile values, at that time?

Therefore, I am interested in specific names. How did the arrest or death of these people relate to the defenses of the Soviet homeland on the threshold and during the Great War? Strengthened or, conversely, weakened? This question seems important to me in the context of who was the enemy of the people there.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Sorry, but that he poured mud on the USSR, that you adhere to the same position, and this is the position of the enemies of the USSR, it is no longer, no matter how sorry, this is the position of the enemies of today's Russia.

You are absolutely right, the enemies of the USSR are the enemies of Putin’s state, unfortunately. Do not lie to yourself, as many of them do, that today's Russia is not the USSR. Some of them at least separate Putin's state from the Russian people (cf. Hitlers come and go, but the German people, and the German state remains), and the part no longer considers it necessary to do this.
By the way, one of our differences with Solzhenitsyn. He considered the Russian people an innocent victim of Soviet power. I do not think.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Significantly worse than what result?

Than American. The history of the USSR did not end in the 45th year.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Octopus

In relation to metal planes, these are Tupolev, Petlyakov and Myasischev

Arkhangelsky (In 1938, Alexander Arkhangelsky was arrested on false charges, but was not convicted, but what was that? Apparently not at all. So the innocents were not convicted, mainly.), Ermolaev, Ilyushin. By the way, Petlyakov and Myasishchev Tupolev clamped, and he framed them.

Quote: Octopus

You mean that the Soviet aircraft industry Tupolev personally transferred to the People’s Commissariat of Beria? Oh well

You don’t have to work under the fool,

Quote: Vladimir_2U

This position seemed reasonable to me, and I wrote a list of 200 people

Two hundred people. And what Tupolev writes about "already sitting" is what he later writes, portrays himself as a "little white fluffy". They put him in jail at his suggestion, but he "won't jail the entire aviation industry."

Quote: Octopus

clauses written by the sick imagination of the legislator
Exactly.

This is some kind of inadequacy, at the level of Baba Lera and Borovoy, to consider articles about punishment for: espionage as "clauses, written by the sick imagination of the legislator"; subversive activities; sabotage and failure to report acts of extremism. How is it going in the United States that you adore?

Quote: Octopus

And we are still far from the imagination of the Chechens, with their fake advice notes, as far as the moon, to the pyramids a la Khoper, to the permission to buy real values ​​for industrial non-cash payments to "cooperators", and for the artificial bankruptcy of strategic enterprises and their subsequent destruction of interested parties with families to the wall you need to put!
What are your interesting associations with the USSR of the 30s.

Well, of course, it's easy to "mow" a fool, it's easier than to admit that everything described above falls under:

Quote: Octopus

58-7. Undermining state industry, transport, trade, money circulation or the credit system, as well as cooperation, committed for counter-revolutionary purposes through the appropriate use of state institutions and enterprises, or opposing their normal activities

And act this article, then avisovschiki, MMM-shchiki and other trash, if it had not been destroyed, then it would have sat down for a long time! Or do you think that scammers, thieves and "raiders" are innocent sheep?

Quote: Octopus

However, I declare that, for example, Churchill was an Anglophile. Worse, he was an enemy of Soviet power. But this did not stop Churchill from helping the USSR fight with the Reich, while at large

How pleasant it would be for Churchill to help Hitler, do not diplomatically outplay both of them. And Church helped Stalin only during the war, moreover, the Great Patriotic War, and not the TDC.

Quote: Octopus

Therefore, I am interested in specific names. How did the arrest or death of these people relate to the defenses of the Soviet homeland on the threshold and during the Great War? Strengthened or, conversely, weakened? This question seems important to me in the context of who was the enemy of the people there.

Should I deal with each specific case? Is this a too impudent demand? Tupolev is enough, as is the "Industrial Party Cases" oversufficient. Unfortunately, there were enemies of the people in the NKVD too. And they brought their harm, but this is not a reason for all engineers and scientists to imagine them as angels in the flesh.

Quote: Octopus

Some of them at least separate Putin's state from the Russian people (cf. Hitlers come and go, and the people are German, but the German state remains), and some do not consider it necessary to do this.
By the way, one of our differences with Solzhenitsyn. He considered the Russian people an innocent victim of Soviet power. I do not think.

It is very rare that an anti-Soviet does not hide the fact that he is a Russophobe, a bit of respect for you for this.

Quote: Octopus

Significantly worse than what result?
Than American. The history of the USSR did not end in the 45th year.

Are you talking about the A-project? So even if we assume that it is seamless with the American, and this is not so, the results are comparable, with undoubtedly less resources of the USSR. The space project showed the superiority of the USSR in this matter, and it was under Werner Light Brown then in the service of the United States. Well, etc. If you are talking about the murder of the USSR, then this is largely due to the accumulation in the country of people like you, but do not imagine, in many ways, but not in everything. An analogue to this, when a flowering athlete and smart girl, a neighbor, a drug-addict, stuck a speedy sharpening into the liver, when this athlete had the imprudence to substitute his side.

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Arkhangelsky (In 1938, Alexander Arkhangelsky was arrested on false charges, but was not convicted, but what’s so? Apparently not at all. So innocent people were not convicted, mainly

The innocent were not condemned, yes. For the sake of comrade Arkhangelsk subordinates comrade Beria was too lazy to stamp a tattered piece of paper about Trotskyism. He trumpeted for 3 years in the same sharaga without a sentence, as a prisoner as a prisoner.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

By the way, Petlyakov and Myasishchev Tupolev clamped, and he framed them.

Yes Yes. Beria gave an order.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

They put him in jail at his suggestion, but he "won't jail the entire aviation industry."

Exactly. Tupolev is to blame for everything, if planted.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Everything described above falls under:

Your understanding of law is quite Stalinist.
It falls under different articles. For example, the Hoper, which is so attached to you, is

169. Abuse of trust or deception in order to obtain property or the right to property or other personal benefits (fraud), - imprisonment for up to two years.

As for the Chechen memos, the perpetrators of this are well known and have never been hidden - B.N. Yeltsin and V.V. Gerashchenko, then chairman of the Central Bank (he, by the way, is alive). It was they, with current money, who gave the Central Bank of the DPR the right to print rubles. I have to draw your attention to the fact that there are no questions for these people on these matters there was and no. They are not Trotskyists.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Or do you think that scammers, thieves and "raiders" are innocent sheep?

I believe that none of the previously repressed specialists listed was a fraud, a thief or a raider.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

do not diplomatically replay Stalin both of them

Stalin outplayed everyone.
Another replayer.
Nonetheless. The joint work of the Soviet government and the Anglophiles in the presence of a common cause is quite possible, as it turned out.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Sufficient "Cases of the Industrial Party"

I did not ask anything about the case of the Industrial Party. You are right, it’s in the same piggy bank, but earlier, so it’s more difficult to trace the connection with defense capability.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Enough and Tupolev

What is enough for Tupolev? In sharaga, he began to work more and better, did I understand you correctly? And you do not agree with his rehabilitation?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Are you talking about the A-project?

I'm talking about the results of the economy as a whole.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

The space project showed the superiority of the USSR in this matter,

The space project showed that in a democracy, Dwight Eisenhower, an even more stupidly snout creature than even Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev, could be elected president of the United States. This is one of the minuses of democracy.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

it is under Werner Light Brown then in the service of the USA

Among other things, Dwight Eisenhower hated the SS. He barely tolerated the presence of the Shturbannfuhrer in the military field, but his participation in the civilian project was unacceptable to Eisenhower.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

An analogue to this, when a flowering athlete and smart girl, a neighbor, a drug-addict, stuck a speedy sharpening into the liver, when this athlete had the imprudence to substitute his side.

Very good thanks. Honestly, I did not expect that my role in the death of the USSR is so great. Sewed in the liver, no one Margaret Thatcher, khe khe.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Was, and what? He was accused and convicted, and according to the testimony of Kleimenov and Langemak, by the way !.

Ah, now the late Kleimenov and Langemak, Heroes of labor posthumously, were they sent to him by the stage? Better and better.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Korolev, it turns out, obviously knew about the impossibility of use in military affairs,

They told you in Russian that the first used in combat conditions of the Kyrgyz Republic was the V-1, which was developed in the same years. But unmanned aerial vehicles were produced before her, and in large quantities. Used as anti-aircraft targets.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Those. at night this rocket can’t be launched at all, or what?

It is possible, but it’s better not, it will not fly far. Actually, she didn’t especially fly during the day.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Great weapon for the Red Army!

This is not a weapon at all. This is a research program. We need a weapon - take a hammer, it does not need to be examined.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Yes, at least what can be applied, what is used on airplanes, do you understand that?

Unfortunately, it is not clear to you. On airplanes, all this is used by man. In most cases (not always) a person distinguishes the earth from heaven and the top from the bottom quite confidently. And the Soviet Elmer Sperry either did not freak out, or was shot on time.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

All the creators of the Kyrgyz Republic and just missiles fought to increase the accuracy of the hit!

In the case of Korolev, the task was to ensure horizontal flight in a given direction. In fact, to come up with an autopilot, at a price and size comparable to a powder rocket, not an airplane. To the accuracy there to swim and swim.
And yes, Korolev most likely underestimated the complexity of the task.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

in those years, 2 km launched its missiles, and in height

In height, it’s just easier. Apparently, you do not distinguish KR from BR.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

your true attitude towards the seated.

)))

Quote: Octopus

I would support both the arrest and the execution of Tupolev

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Why did you stuff such a piece of dough for?

To make it harder for you to tell why they put Tupolev actually. For what is written, for that they planted. Terrorist, then.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

So the deadline benefited, if not Tupolev, then the country for sure.

Perfectly.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Yes, it’s already clear that the regime gave the Russian, and not only the laboring man a free breath, but gave his children a childhood, which gave hope to the people of labor and science, including, around the world, hope for the best

It is very convenient that your two statements stand side by side.
I completely agree with you. The Russian people of labor and science deserve this.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

It is very rare that an anti-Soviet does not hide the fact that he is a Russophobe, a bit of respect for you for this.

Thank. So really much more convenient, the picture of the world is much less controversial.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Octopus

He trumpeted for 3 years in the same sharaga without a sentence, as a prisoner as a prisoner.

Translated to closed mode, as in Los Alamos.

Quote: Octopus

Yes Yes. Beria gave an order.

Indications to the investigator.

Quote: Octopus

Exactly. Tupolev is to blame for everything, if planted.

According to his list, and if "the entire aviation industry" for you is 200 people, then this is a diagnosis.

Quote: Octopus

It falls under different articles. For example, the Hoper, which is so attached to you, is
169. Abuse of trust or deception in order to obtain property or the right to property or other personal benefits (fraud), - imprisonment for up to two years

With stolen huge funds and thousands of deceived investors? Up to two years? You don’t even need to look for anything to refute this stupidity. And undermining the authority of the state, for a minute ...

Quote: Octopus

B.N. Yeltsin and V.V. Gerashchenko, then chairman of the Central Bank (he, by the way, is alive). It was they, with current money, who gave the Central Bank of the DPR the right to print rubles. I have to draw your attention to the fact that there were no questions to these people in these matters and there are no. They are not Trotskyists.

Powerfully, you will not say anything, maybe they did not answer because they adopted the laws for themselves? The terrorists in "Nord-Ost" were also not Trotskyists, but they were asleep without trial and investigation. Now, your logic is not even flawed, it’s sick. And by the way, does the DPR Central Bank print Russian-style rubles? Which Banderstadt did you see from?

Quote: Octopus

I didn’t ask anything about the case of the Industrial Party

And I didn't ask anything about the Golden Calf.

Quote: Octopus

Enough and Tupolev
What is enough for Tupolev?

Based on the torn quotation, questions to ask rudeness. But I will bring her completely.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Should I deal with each specific case? Is this a too impudent demand? Enough and Tupolev, as oversufficient "Affairs of the Industrial Party"

Quote: Octopus

Or do you think that scammers, thieves and "raiders" are innocent sheep?
I believe that none of the previously repressed specialists listed was a fraud, a thief or a raider.

Again, juggling, you extremely stupidly called clauses 58 of article "clauses invented by a sick person", something like that. I refuted this stupidity of yours with the example of fraudsters, thieves and raiders, whose actions fully fell under the points of this article.

Quote: Octopus

I'm talking about the results of the economy as a whole.

I don’t see any sense in writing about different starting and intermediate conditions for the development of economies.

Quote: Octopus

The space project showed that in a democracy, Dwight Eisenhower, an even more stupidly snout creature than even Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev, could be elected president of the United States.

However, this did not stop the Americans from launching all the FAU-2 exported from Germany, and a lot. And to no avail.

Quote: Octopus

Among other things, Dwight Eisenhower hated the SS.

And what prevented the conviction of the WFB for crimes against humanity, like hundreds of war criminals? Not so apparently hated.

Quote: Octopus

Very good thanks. Honestly, I did not expect that my role in the death of the USSR is so great

Yeah, it’s written about you.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

If you are talking about the murder of the USSR, then this is largely due to the accumulation in the country of people like you, but do not imagine, in many ways, but not in everything.

But it looks like the text directly relating to you does not overpower you!

Quote: Octopus

Sewed in the liver, no one Margaret Thatcher, khe khe.

It's funny, yes.

Quote: Octopus

Ah, now the late Kleimenov and Langemak, Heroes of labor posthumously, were they sent to him by the stage?

And what? Testimony, and unanimous different persons under investigation are not enough to start a case? Are you in general (in what reality) where do you live?

Quote: Octopus

They told you in Russian that the first used in combat conditions of the Kyrgyz Republic was the V-1, which was developed in the same years

So what? and I wrote that the V-1 was not of great military importance, and this is with a ton of explosives.

Quote: Octopus

But unmanned aerial vehicles were produced before her, and in large quantities. Used as anti-aircraft targets.

And how did they stay on course?

Quote: Octopus

Those. at night this rocket can’t be launched at all, or what?
It is possible, but it’s better not, it will not fly far. Actually, she didn’t especially fly during the day.

You are stupid on the occasion of FE and technical illiteracy is already covering some sort of nonsense.

Quote: Octopus

Great weapon for the Red Army!
This is not a weapon at all. This is a research program. We need a weapon - take a hammer, it does not need to be examined.

Yes, you frankly breshet! 212 missile precisely how a military missile was developed, with insignificant military significance even against the background of not only Fau-1, Fau-2! An anti-aircraft missile, from which the PV appeared in the guidance system, how weapons were developed! Liar!

Quote: Octopus

Yes, at least what can be applied, what is used on airplanes, do you understand that?
Unfortunately, it is not clear to you. On airplanes, all this is used by man.

This is your definition of the Korolev problem, which is somehow defective, though:

Quote: Octopus

Its task is to develop a scheme for the use of control planes in the Kyrgyz Republic.

Quote: Octopus

In most cases (not always) a person distinguishes the earth from heaven and the top from the bottom quite confidently. And the Soviet Elmer Sperry either did not freak out, or was shot on time.

You obviously persist in stupidity about FE, I wrote about Aubrey, do you even know what it is? This is a gyroscope-based device, and the Soviet industry has completely mastered and produced it! I wrote about Soviet autopilots, and for 34-36 years. But you don't care. Here is the expression "pounding in the eyes" it looks like about you. And the industry of the USSR before the war mastered not just what Sperry, Anshutz mastered, albeit for ships not lower than rank 2!.

Quote: Octopus

In the case of Korolev, the task was to ensure horizontal flight in a given direction. In fact, to come up with an autopilot, at a price and size comparable to a powder rocket, not an airplane. To the accuracy there to swim and swim.

What nonsense! Korolev did the rocket and the KR and didn’t normally! Controls are not his diocese!

Quote: Octopus

To make it more difficult for you to tell why Tupolev was actually imprisoned. For what is written, for that they planted. Terrorist, then.

You also recognized yourself as a troll.

Quote: Octopus

So really much more convenient, the picture of the world is much less controversial.

Did you praise yourself, or what? Are you all so complicated, or what?

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Translated to closed mode, as in Los Alamos.

Actually, the prison in which our out-of-office life took place occupied the top three floors on the street. Radio. There were three large bedrooms overlooking the courtyard, dining room, kitchen, sanitary unit and a monkey. Numerous administration and security premises overlooked the street. Three of these floors communicated with the rest, where we worked, with one internal staircase. We did not have our own punishment cell and took the guilty to Butyrki.
We were awakened at 7 in the morning, time until 8 was allotted for cleaning the bedrooms, washing, shaving, physical exercises, etc. From 8 to 9 there was breakfast, after which we worked until one o’clock in the afternoon, when we went to dinner. From 2 to 7 again work, then rest until 8, dinner and free time until 11, when the lights were off. The check was carried out at night, in the beds when we were sleeping.
Closer to the war, the working day was extended to 10 hours, and from the spring of 1941 to 12. They fed well enough, for breakfast - kefir, tea, butter, porridge; two-course lunch and compote; for dinner - a hot dish, kefir, butter, tea. For those who worked after dinner at 10 o’clock in the dining room brought yogurt and bread.
After the camps, such food was reminiscent of Lukul feasts

But the arrested tried as best they could - after all, they were promised that after a successful test of the designed aircraft they will be allowed to go home

Los Alamos, yes.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Indications to the investigator.

What if the enemy of the people of Tupolev, with the aim of destroying the Soviet aircraft industry and on the instructions of the French intelligence, slandered honest people, real communists? Who should think about this?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

if "the entire aviation industry" for you is 200 people, then this is a diagnosis.

Of the designers of the massive WWII aircraft at different times were:
Tupolev, Petlyakov, Myasischev, Arkhangelsk, Polikarpov.
Not sitting: Yakovlev, Mikoyan, Lavochkin, Sukhoi, Ilyushin. Didn’t forget anyone?
5:5
At the same time, if behind the first were their "firms", then the second were talented amateurs to varying degrees, who simply did not get their hands on.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

With stolen huge funds and thousands of deceived investors? Up to two years?

Yes. If you were even a little aware of the history of domestic, hmm, law, you would know that the problems of private individuals were not indifferent to the Soviet legislator. He became Tupolev a Trotskyist - he got 15 years old, and if he just killed someone in the heat of the moment

138. Intentional homicide committed in a state of sudden strong emotional disturbance caused by violence or heavy insult by the victim, imprisonment for up to five years or forced labor for up to one year.

.
Forced work is like TsKB-29, only spending the night at home. Year.

This has not passed yet.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And undermining the authority of the state, for a minute ...

What other authority? Did Mr. Mavrodi wish for the restoration of the Romanovs? Did he act in the interests of bourgeois intelligence? No and no.
And for Khoper and everything else, thank just your native state. This is a native government with a native parliament, and for one and the Sun, did not take the trouble to register pyramidal schemes as a form of fraud in the normative.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

The terrorists in "Nord-Ost" were also not Trotskyists, but they were asleep without trial and investigation.

And where did the terrorists come from? What ideas do you have about the Central Bank?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

I have denied this stupidity of yours by the example of thieves and raiders scammers, whose acts completely fell under the paragraphs of this article.

Do not fall. It seems that you sincerely do not understand that the 58th is an analogue of the 29th chapter of the Criminal Code, into which the Soviet legislator stuffed all kinds of garbage, and the law enforcement officer began to sew to anyone who got into it. This level of revolutionary justice is difficult to fix.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

all FAU-2 exported from Germany, and a lot. And to no avail.

It’s pretty good. While Korolev was playing with his companions, the SS men fired their tactical missiles throughout the GDR.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And what prevented the conviction of the WFB for crimes against humanity, like hundreds of war criminals?

You see. Firstly, Aiki, should be given his due, did not seek to condemn everyone and everyone, especially the people who were useful to his country. Secondly, the topic of crimes against humanity is too slippery, swept to the noise once, but even then with a creak. Here, as it were, questions did not arise for Eisenhower himself, in the 53rd year in the USA it was no longer so easy to carry out processes in the style of Comrade. VYSHINSKY.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Testimony, and unanimous different persons under investigation are not enough to start a case?

Of course not. You do not agree with the rehabilitation of these convicts or what?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

and I wrote that the V-1 was not of great military importance, and this is with a ton of explosives.

And why is this a question for the Queen in the 36th year, what military significance did the V-1 have?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And how did they stay on course?

Through the eyes of the operator. They are radio command.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

technical illiteracy is already covering some sort of nonsense.

The people who wrote the indictment were illiterate. Not Korolev.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Anti-aircraft missile, from which the PV appeared in the guidance system

Watch your tongue. Korolev did not engage in missiles, but in Kyrgyzstan. ZUR then, NYA, were not involved in the USSR at all, for impossibility and uselessness.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Anschütz mastered, even for ships of at least 2 rank !.

Try stuffing your Anschutz into a powder rocket.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

I wrote about Aubrey

That is why the royal product is called "air torpedo". But the torpedo - it is big, heavy, costs like a tank of that time. It’s because of all these tricky things. Your Aubrey won't interfere.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

I wrote about Soviet autopilots

Yeah. Something like that, the Queen needs to be done for a disposable item.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Controls are not his diocese!

Exactly. However, it was the jamb with SU that the native authorities charged him with the review of the case.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

You also recognized yourself as a troll.

Do not understand. Are you against the official document of the NKVD or what?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Are you all so complicated, or what?

On the contrary. Just the line with bad Stalin and good Russians is practically impossible to maintain.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Octopus

Arkhangelsky (In 1938, Alexander Arkhangelsky was arrested on false charges, but was not convicted, but so what?

Quote: Octopus

Actually, the prison in which our out-of-office life took place occupied the top three floors on the street. Radio. There were three large bedrooms overlooking the courtyard, dining room, kitchen, sanitary unit and a monkey.

Are these the memories of Arkhangelsk?

Quote: Octopus

What if the enemy of the people of Tupolev, with the aim of destroying the Soviet aircraft industry and on the instructions of the French intelligence, slandered honest people, real communists?

That is, he could also be accused of being an honest slander? These are not my words.

Quote: Octopus

Of the designers of the massive WWII aircraft at different times were:
Tupolev, Petlyakov, Myasischev, Arkhangelsk, Polikarpov.
Not sitting: Yakovlev, Mikoyan, Lavochkin, Sukhoi, Ilyushin. Didn’t forget anyone?
5:5

At different times! Not that your whining about:

Quote: Octopus

How did the arrest or death of these people relate to the defenses of the Soviet homeland on the threshold and during the Great War?

Arkhangelsky was not convicted, Polikarpov also served in Sharaga, by the way, much earlier than 39 g. Even if you do not remember Gurevich, Gudkov and Gorbunov, then half, approximately, of the chief designers, is far from the entire aviation industry.

Quote: Octopus

If you were even a little aware of the history of domestic, hmm, law, you would know that the problems of private individuals were not indifferent to the Soviet legislator

Another stupid thing! There was a certain priority in protecting state property over private, but this was expressed in terms. Crimes against the person were punished quite adequately

Quote: Octopus

He became Tupolev a Trotskyist - he got 15 years old, and if he just killed someone in the heat of the moment

Are you again Tupolev strictly Trotskyist expose? Let me remind you that it was you who also accused him of slandering honest people. And besides this, he screwed up the purchase of licenses and slowed down the development of new aircraft. And what does it mean that he killed in haste?

Quote: Octopus

Manslaughter committed in a state of sudden strong emotional unrest caused by violence or heavy insult by the victim, imprisonment for up to five years or forced labor for up to one year.

Did it not reach you that the "hot-tempered" murderer could have been a woman raped, and a man whose mother cynically publicly insulted some scum? It seems that even a thought did not flicker. And "up to five years", as it were, Tupolev served time, only not with criminals, but with colleagues from his "list".

Quote: Octopus

It seems that you sincerely do not understand that the 58th is an analogue of the 29th chapter of the Criminal Code, into which the Soviet legislator stuffed all kinds of garbage, and the law enforcement officer began to sew to anyone who got into it.

What is the Soviet legislator? Bring the 29th chapter of the USSR Criminal Code? The Criminal Code of the Russian Federation has chapter 29, Crimes against the foundations of the constitutional system and state security. Do you think that articles about espionage, extremism and all that stuff are rubbish? And personally, I also consider economic crimes, especially "raiding" with the aim of destroying an enterprise through bankruptcy, an anti-state crime and even treason.

Quote: Octopus

What other authority? Did Mr. Mavrodi wish for the restoration of the Romanovs? Did he act in the interests of bourgeois intelligence? No and no.
And for Khoper and everything else, thank just your native state. This is a native government with a native parliament, and for one and the Sun, did not take the trouble to register pyramidal schemes as a form of fraud in the normative.

It’s clear, it’s clear that they’ve included the fool again, because article 58 would instantly cover figures like Mavrodi, it’s not clear to you, yes.

Quote: Octopus

And where did the terrorists come from?

And from there, I’ll refresh your memory:

Quote: Vladimir_2U

B.N. Yeltsin and V.V. Gerashchenko, then chairman of the Central Bank (he, by the way, is alive). It was they, with current money, who gave the Central Bank of the DPR the right to print rubles. I have to draw your attention to the fact that there were no questions to these people in these matters and there are no. They are not Trotskyists.
Powerfully, you will not say anything, maybe they did not answer because they adopted the laws for themselves? The terrorists in "Nord-Ost" were also not Trotskyists, but they were asleep without trial and investigation.

By your idiotic mention of "not Trotskyists" you had to tie terrorists, too, by the way, "not Trotskyists."

Quote: Octopus

What ideas do you have about the Central Bank?

This is your idea, some kind of moronic, about the Central Bank of the DPR, in conjunction with the Chechen memos.

Quote: Octopus

It’s them, for the current money, gave the right to the Central Bank of the DNI to print rubles. I have to draw your attention to the fact that there were no questions to these people in these matters and there are no. They are not Trotskyists.

Quote: Octopus

all FAU-2 exported from Germany, and a lot. And to no avail.
It’s pretty good. While Korolev was playing with his companionsThe SS men made their tactical missiles throughout the GDR.

So all the same, Korolev was inclined to create worthless, but very curious things? How else to explain these YOUR "played with his companions"? However, it is clear to me that Korolev created, first of all, a global ICBM, and it became clear to your beloved Americans. And do you imagine that the USSR at that time did not have tactical missiles?

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Are these the memories of Arkhangelsk?

Ozerova. Did Arkhangelsk spend the night at home?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

That is, he could also be accused of being an honest slander?

And why is the question for me, and not for Lieutenant Esipenko?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Arkhangelsk was not condemned,

And how did you live?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Polikarpov served, also by the way in Sharaga, much earlier than 39 g

This also did not hinder him from working.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Even if you do not recall Gurevich, Gudkov and Gorbunov,

Do not remember. Were they definitely designers?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Crimes against the person were punished quite adequately

2 years for Khoper - this is adequate, tea is not an animal, not in America.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Are you again Tupolev strictly Trotskyist expose?

Here, yes, to blame, stipulated. Tupolev was a member of the fascist constitutional democratic organization. Not a Trotskyist.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

screwed up the procurement of licenses and the development of new aircraft slowed down.

And I specifically wrote to you what he was accused of. Please choose from the proposed. A person in whose world there are fascist constitutional democrats understands in licenses and designing aircraft better than Tupolev and Petlyakov, yes.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Did it not reach you that the "hot-tempered" killer could be a woman raped, and a man whose mother cynically publicly insulted some scum?

Of course, this is much more excusable than being a fascist-constitutionalist-democrat. Such perverts generally need to be shot on the spot.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

The Criminal Code of the Russian Federation contains 29 chapters, Crimes against the Foundations of the Constitutional System and State Security.

Exactly.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

What do you think articles about espionage, extremism and all that garbage?

I consider it rubbish to write down most of the clauses of article 58 in crimes against the constitutional system and the state.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And I personally consider economic crimes

I have already spoken about your justice.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

the fact that article 58 would allow you to instantly cover figures like Mavrodi, it’s not clear to you, yes.

Of course I would not allow it. We would like to close Mavrodi - we would close it without the 58th article. You clearly do not understand this.

Quote: Octopus

It was they, with current money, that gave the Central Bank of the DPR the right to print rubles

It says that the right to issue rubles was actually granted to a bank located in an unrecognized republic. Chechnya / Ichkeria was not de facto Russia at that time. So there is no need to look for anyone, the people who made this possible are all in Moscow and are well known.
Since one of these people is the head of state, no article of the Criminal Code will help you against him.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

So all the same, Korolev was inclined to create worthless, but very curious things?

Of course. It was his worthless, extremely expensive (paid with folk money), but very curious toys that brought the USSR primacy in space and inscribed this country in the history of mankind with the + sign. After 500 years, everything will be forgotten, and Gagarin and Korolev will remain like Columbus or Galileo. Like von Braun and Armstrong.

Yangel, who made the first real Soviet ICBM, is known only to specialists.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Korolev created primarily a global ICBM,

The R-7 was not a combat missile from the word "generally".

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Do you imagine that the USSR had no tactical missiles at that time?

In the mid-50s? And laughter and tears.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Octopus

Ozerova. Did Arkhangelsk spend the night at home?

Give a proof to the contrary.

Quote: Octopus

That is, he could also be accused of being an honest slander?

And why is the question for me, and not for Lieutenant Esipenko?

But because these are YOUR words:

Quote: Octopus

And suddenly, an enemy of the people of Tupolev, with the aim of destroying the Soviet aircraft industry and on the instructions of French intelligence, slandered honest peoplereal communists?

What, the memory of the fish?

Quote: Octopus

Arkhangelsk was not condemned,
And how did you live?

And why is the question for me, and not for Arkhangelsk?

Quote: Octopus

Polikarpov served, also by the way in Sharaga, much earlier than 39 g

This also did not hinder him from working.

Maybe, maybe not. He is not Tupolev.

Quote: Octopus

Crimes against the person were punished quite adequately
2 years for Khoper - this is adequate, tea is not an animal, not in America.

How so, you in America are few that do not dry. And what, for Khoper, someone got two years? I just don’t know, for me that MMM, that Seleng, that Khoper, is semi-abstract, this has not directly affected me. But grandmas, grandfather feel sorry.

Quote: Octopus

And I specifically wrote to you what he was accused of. Please choose from the proposed. A person in whose world there are fascist constitutional democrats understands in licenses and designing aircraft better than Tupolev and Petlyakov, yes.

They wrote, but I almost got to this:

recognized the wrecking on the construction of the “DBA” aircraft, delays in the construction of stratospheric aircraft along DB-2, RD, VIT, DB-3, I-21, PB, SB, DMP;
- admitted that he thwarted Gromov’s flight to establish a range, thwarted in 1935 the government’s planned flight of Levanevsky through the North Pole to America, and in 1937, a number of wrecking acts led to the death of the crew of Levanevsky’s plane while flying to America through the North Pole. In 1924 he was recruited by Morgulis for espionage in favor of France. While in Paris in 1935, he personally transmitted espionage information about fighter planes and light bombers to French Minister of Aviation Denin.
At the interrogation on 23.11.38/XNUMX/XNUMX, Tupolev refused testimony regarding espionage.

Tupolev refused only from testimony regarding espionage. This is what you brazenly kept silent! And here's another:

Of the contracts concluded by PSU NKOP, only two Douglas and Consteleited should be recognized as effective, the rest of the contracts for Valti combat aircraft and Glen-Martin civilian aircraft, due to their flight technical and technical backwardness, do not represent any price for us

https://ss69100.livejournal.com/4019359.html
Also from the Internet, it is also not particularly checked, but the Tupolev case is far from all laid out, even the accusatory part, to put it mildly, is not all. And about the cadets of the fascist democrats, it’s funny, yes, if you don’t know about fascist Italy, are you aware of fascist Italy? There was democracy and a constitution and fascism, and a king to the heap!

Quote: Octopus

I consider it rubbish to write down most of the clauses of article 58 in crimes against the constitutional system and the state.

Announce the entire list, and it’s very vague!

Quote: Octopus

Of course I would not allow it. We would like to close Mavrodi - we would close it without the 58th article. You clearly do not understand this.

You obviously don’t understand, or pretend that if you acted 58th, you would have imprisoned Mavrodi and a lot of other perpetrators of fraud on such a scale, and not because they wanted, did not want, but because otherwise you would have sat down, and more severe language.

Quote: Octopus

It says that the right to issue rubles was actually

WHAT? What side do the false notices relate to the right to issue money? Are you sure not? You or or troll me.

Quote: Octopus

So all the same, Korolev was inclined to create worthless, but very curious things?

Of course. It was his worthless, extremely expensive (paid with folk money), but very curious toys that brought the USSR primacy in space and inscribed this country in the history of mankind with the + sign

And again, a tattered quote, your style is rather scanty to argue, but I will bring it all

Quote: Octopus

It’s pretty good. While Korolev was playing with his companions, the SS men fired their tactical missiles throughout the GDR.

There is no doubt that in this phrase you are derogatory about the Korolevsky passion for business.

Quote: Octopus

Yangel, who made the first real Soviet ICBM, is known only to specialists.

And the SEC did earlier and demonstrated in 1957, in principle, the first ICBM that could reach America. Yangel not earlier than 1960 created his own ICBM. So get smart somewhere else.

Quote: Octopus

R-7 was not a combat missile from the word "in general"

And what, she couldn’t hit your adored USA with a nuclear warhead?

Quote: Octopus

Do you imagine that the USSR had no tactical missiles at that time?
In the mid-50s? And laughter and tears.

In the sense? What was not? Are you just pretending to be a fool or are you trolling like that? I’ll ask you to answer this question!
Yes, just one R-1, which is a copy of the V-2, is enough to remember, and before R-7 there were at least 5 more pieces.

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Give a proof to the contrary.

Where was Arkhangelsk in 38-41 years can be found on Wikipedia.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And why is the question for me, and not for Arkhangelsk?

You equate "was not convicted" and "was at large". Taubin was also not convicted, this did not prevent him from shooting.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

What, the memory of the fish?

I still have a decent memory. With a fig, is the list of 200 people that the enemy of the people gave is the basis for the arrest of all of them? And if the enemy of the people Tupolev rewrote the phone book, then what?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Maybe, maybe not.

No, you decide. Or friends of the people harmed the defense, or not.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

How so, you in America are few that do not dry.

Garbage is America's shame.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Tupolev refused only from testimony regarding espionage. This is what you brazenly kept silent!

And I do not consider recognition the queen of evidence.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

https://ss69100.livejournal.com/4019359.html

A certain Aizen Taicho knows better about airplanes than Tupolev.

not one purchased in 1935-36 in the USA, the model of aircraft in mass production by 1938 did not consist.

Everything is clear from Comrade. Taicho.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Are you aware of fascist Italy? There was democracy and both constitution and fascism.

From this statement it follows that you are not aware of the doctrine of fascism, nor even more about the CD. Like Comrade Lieutenant, of course.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Announce the entire list

Digging around again. Take chapter 29UK (although it, too, frankly, is peculiar) and paragraphs 58, yes compare.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

What side do the false notices relate to the right to issue money?

These memos - and there is non-cash money that the bank created from the air. The rules of those years allowed him to do this. At least the Grozny RCC.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

There is no doubt that in this phrase you are derogatory about the Korolevsky passion for business.

Korolev, as always, was fond of their not a state affair. The state wanted to crash, and Korolev wanted to go into space. And he was right, of course, in contrast to a crazy state.
His 300-ton rocket was suitable for space, and absolutely not suitable for gasping.

Yes, the traitor may be right, but the state may not.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And the SEC did earlier and demonstrated in 1957, in principle, the first ICBM that could reach America

Seven
No
ICBMs.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Yangel not earlier than 1960 created his own ICBM. So get smart somewhere else.

In the 63rd R16U stood on the database. Royal 9A a year later and in a minimal amount.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And what, she couldn’t hit your adored USA with a nuclear warhead?

Of course not, with such a start procedure, the number and size of launchers. Would cover without options. Guaranteed Response this system could not provide, only preventive strike, and then how lucky.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

I’ll ask you to answer this question!

What do you answer there? When the USSR put into service the R-11M, terrible trash, MGM-29 Sergeant was brewing in the dungeon near the enemies, and in the Fulda corridor there was MGM-5. Soviet counterpart MGM-29? Huh? Oka 9K714 80th year?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Octopus

Firstly, Aiki, should be given his due, did not seek to condemn everyone and everyone, especially the people who were useful to his country.

Yeah, it’s not that Ike and dumb-snout comes out?

Quote: Octopus

Dwight Eisenhower, an even more stupidly snout creature than even Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev

Quote: Octopus

Here, as it were, questions did not arise for Eisenhower himself, in the 53rd year in the USA it was no longer so easy to carry out processes in the style of Comrade. VYSHINSKY.

Is it really so? McCarthyism just blossomed with Ike. Do not Lala! And arms lobbying, too, flourished, but the Americans did not have enough space program to begin to develop.

Quote: Octopus

Of course not. You do not agree with the rehabilitation of these convicts or what?

By the way, they did rehabilitation and partial rehabilitation, according to such an article, they were rehabilitated, and according to which they didn’t. And this is not to mention the almost continuous rehabilitation under Khrushchev, you called him stupid-snout, by the way.

Quote: Octopus

And why is this a question for the Queen in the 36th year, what military significance did the V-1 have?

Pff, strange, it was you who mentioned the FAU-1 as an argument of the relevance of Korolev's work. Damn way argument.

Quote: Octopus

Who better than the prosecutor to know which weapons are applicable and which are not.
Korolev is the head of the group of rocket-planes and cruise missiles. Me-163 flew in the 41st, V-1 - in the 42nd.

Quote: Octopus

Through the eyes of the operator. They are radio command.

Are the eyes of the operator radio command? Joke!

Quote: Octopus

The people who wrote the indictment were illiterate. Not Korolev.

I wrote about YOUR ignorance! Are you already able to read?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

You are stupid on the occasion of FE and technical illiteracy is already covering some sort of nonsense.

And I will remind you of what stupidity and ignorance YOUR consists of:

Quote: Octopus

The task of the control system on photocells is to distinguish the bright sky from the dark earth and provide the product with a relatively horizontal flight through the control of the planes. The distortion with the photocells was invented only because the Soviet industry did not master much of the normal way — the gyroscope.

And you still do not understand the idiocy of this! Such an autopilot will simply not work at night, not in 36, for sure, and no one has applied such a scheme.

Quote: Octopus

Watch your tongue. Korolev did not engage in missiles, but in Kyrgyzstan. ZUR then, NYA, were not involved in the USSR at all, for impossibility and uselessness.

Without even knowing about the development of missiles, to write about their uselessness is DIGNESS! And Korolev was precisely what was developing the missile defense, and it was in it that it was supposed to use FE, I wrote about this, are you blind or what?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And attention! FE in missile guidance! It was planned! Use! I was personally surprised to learn that the SEC was working on an anti-aircraft missile with guidance on the spotlight! And these works successfully failed. So the investigation may not have been very competent, but knew more about the case than you.

In 1935, Sergey Korolev proposed the idea of ​​the 217 anti-aircraft missile, guided by a searchlight beam using photocells. Work on the projectile was carried out for some time until the development stage.

Quote: Octopus

Anschütz mastered, even for ships of at least 2 rank !.
Try stuffing your Anschutz into a powder rocket.

Firstly, the Anschutz gyrocompass is much more complex and accurate than the Sperry gyrocompass, and the development of Anschutz in production is an indicator of the maturity of the Soviet instrument making , this anti-aircraft missile was on the TT, not needed, you need an autopilot, yes, the lightest and cheapest, but much, much simpler than the gyrocompass.

Quote: Octopus

But the torpedo - it is big, heavy, it stands like a tank of that time. It is because of all these complex pieces. Doesn't fit your Aubrey.

So you imagine that a big, heavy Aubrey device is required to control a "big, heavy" torpedo? Well, according to this logic, the battleship should be controlled by a giant five meters tall. This is your logic. And such knowledge of technology, it is good that the steering gear does not obey such flawed logic. And the Aubrey device is fine.

Quote: Octopus

Yeah. Something like that, the Queen needs to be done for a disposable item.

Korolev did not master the cruise missile, could not dock it with the autopilot, and this is a liquid missile.

Quote: Octopus

Controls are not his diocese!
Exactly. However, it was the jamb with SU that the native authorities charged him with the review of the case.

Do you always have a memory like a goldfish or when it is so profitable? But I will remind you, regardless of the reasons for your micro-memory:

Quote: Octopus

In 1936 year led the development of a powder winged torpedo; knowing in advance that the main parts of this torpedo - devices with photocells - for controlling a torpedo and pointing it at a target, cannot be manufactured by the central laboratory of wire communication,

.

Quote: Octopus

You also recognized yourself as a troll.

Do not understand. Are you against the official document of the NKVD or what?

What is the official document of the NKVD, there is a little bit of it, you shoved almost the entire text of article 58.

Quote: Octopus

)))
Quote: Octopus
I would support both the arrest and the execution of Tupolev
Quote: Vladimir_2U
Why did you stuff such a piece of dough for?
To make it harder for you to tell, for which Tupolev was actually imprisoned. For what is written, for that they planted. Terrorist, then.

You have identified yourself as a troll with this recognition. Obfuscation instead of argumentation, this is trolling.

Quote: Octopus

On the contrary. Just the line with bad Stalin and good Russians is practically impossible to maintain.

Russophobia is once again confirmed.

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Yeah, it’s not that Ike and dumb-snout comes out?

Aiki was a flashy smug boob. Aiki was not a vicious vengeful paranoid.
In general, the importance of Aiki for the USSR is greatly underestimated, in contrast to Roosevelt. To the question "How can the existence of the USSR be justified before God?" lovers of the most delicious ice cream, in addition to any hope for working people, from specifics more often than others will name:
1. Victory Banner
2. Sputnik and Gagarin.
3. AK-47.
4. T-34.
Eisenhower personally had a direct relationship to all these points. Often determining.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

McCarthyism just blossomed with Ike.

I already wrote about McCarthyism, find by search.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And this is not to mention the almost continuous rehabilitation under Khrushchev, you called him dull-snout,

Not for that. Nikita, for all his shortcomings, was a man. Bad man. Father and Genius were not human.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Pff, strange, it was you who mentioned the FAU-1 as an argument of the relevance of Korolev's work.

Naturally. The Kyrgyz Republic was a popular topic; in the 30s, many people dealt with it. After 5 years she did not work, and after 25 she worked. Like atomic physics, for example.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Are the eyes of the operator radio command?

Not the eyes, but the head. The horizontal is maintained with the help of the brain. Naturally, those who have it.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Without even knowing about the development of missiles, to write about their uselessness is DIGNESS!

Wow, how clever. The topic of missiles appeared at the end of the war among the Germans - because of the mass raids, and among the Americans - because of the kamikaze. Prior to this, such a topic did not exist. In terms of how relevant development. And conversations yes, it is as much as you like.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Korolev precisely what developed the missile defense, and it was supposed to use PV in it, I wrote about this

You never know what nonsense you wrote.

In 1936, he led the development of a powder winged torpedo; knowing in advance that the main parts of this torpedo — devices with photocells — for controlling a torpedo and aiming it at a target cannot be manufactured by the central wire communication laboratory, Korolev, in order to load the institute with unnecessary work, intensively led the development of the missile part of this torpedo in 2 versions .

Speech about a product 06/216.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

do you need a big heavy Aubrey device?

A small and light Aubrey device is required, more precisely, a control system with a gyroscope. Unless, of course, you have a gyroscope that can be used on a powder rocket.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

I couldn’t dock it with the autopilot, and this rocket is liquid.

Comrade investigator writes gunpowder.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

cannot be manufactured by the central laboratory of wire communication,

Can’t he put it on it? This is not his diocese, his diocese is a glider. To coordinate the project as a whole, there is a management of the research institute and the customer.
I will tell you more. If SU is not and never will be, this does not mean at all that aerodynamics, linkers, strengthists or dvigatelisty engage in useless work.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

What is the official document of the NKVD, there is a little bit of it

It lists the articles of the prosecution. I specially painted them all for you, so that you would not tell me about the corrugation on the wing. Comrade Lieutenant does not write anything about the corrugation.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Russophobia is once again confirmed.

I'm not going to argue with this, calm down already.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Octopus

McCarthyism just blossomed with Ike.
I already wrote about McCarthyism, find by search.

Not in a dispute with me, do not seek me your fabrications throughout VO.

Quote: Octopus

Naturally. The Kyrgyz Republic was a popular topic; in the 30s, many people dealt with it. After 5 years she did not work, and after 25 she worked. Like atomic physics, for example

And after 5 years there was a war, and several years of work, not just one SEC, by the way, but due to its fault, for whatever reason, it was merged and NOKR did not help either Germany, or even the USSR.

Quote: Octopus

Without even knowing about the development of missiles, to write about their uselessness is DIGNESS!
Wow, how clever. The topic of missiles appeared at the end of the war among the Germans - because of the mass raids, and among the Americans - because of the kamikaze. Prior to this, such a topic did not exist.

Well, yes, I repeat Without even knowing about the development of missiles, to write about their uselessness is DIGNESS! The planes before the war appeared, before the very thing, and the fact that they could be dropped from the bombs was discovered only on April 18, 1939, and the anti-aircraft artillery ensured the destruction of one shell at any height. You are either idiotic or a troll.

7. Gunpowder cruise missiles 217. Direct development engineer MP Dryazgova Intended to defeat air moving targets from the ground. It was planned to carry out stabilization and control of missiles in flight using telemechanical devices, when flying missiles along a light beam from a searchlight directed at a target. The control system was to be developed by the Institute of Telemechanics, the missiles themselves were designed by the RNII. The missile was made in two versions, 271 / I and 217 / II:

https://cont.ws/@yasakovai/593736

Quote: Octopus

Speech about a product 06/216.

This rocket is liquid, and you, stubbornly disputing it, are either idiotic or a troll

Quote: Octopus

do you need a big heavy Aubrey device?
A small and light Aubrey device is required, more precisely, a control system with a gyroscope

Again the glancing quote, here is the complete one:

Quote: Vladimir_2U

So you imagine that a big, heavy Aubrey device is required to control a "big, heavy" torpedo? Well, according to this logic, the battleship should be controlled by a giant five meters tall. This is your logic

The fact that you have a foul manner of tearing quotes, I already understand. Do you understand that the Aubrey device is quite small and quite light, even its torpedo version.

Quote: Octopus

Comrade investigator writes gunpowder.

The comrade investigator didn’t "bite" in the eyes, he knew that the 217 rocket was powder, and that it had to be guided by a FE from the ground.

Quote: Octopus

Isn’t that for him? This is not his diocese, his diocese is a glider. To coordinate the project as a whole, there is a management of the research institute and the customer.

What do you remember, the leadership of the research institute remembered, but nothing that:

Quote: Octopus

Korolev is the head of the group of rocket-planes and cruise missiles.

And the deputy Kleimenova? And he actually set himself tasks? And he answered for disrupting tasks.
I don’t even know what to answer:

Quote: Octopus

I will tell you more. If SU is not and never will be, this does not mean at all that aerodynamics, linkers, strengthists or dvigatelisty engage in useless work.

There will be no SU! Ie. you, like Korolev, do not see anything scary that all these people here will not give anything to the customer? Sorry, but this is idiocy, not Korolev, he would only have a rocket at least fly. This is your idiocy, well, in general there is no desire to argue idioticly, although if you are a troll, then another matter. To argue with the troll is already my stupidity. Are you a troll or an idiot? I ask for an answer.

Quote: Octopus

What is the official document of the NKVD, there is a little bit of it

It lists the articles of the prosecution. I specially painted them all for you, so that you would not tell me about the corrugation on the wing. Comrade Lieutenant does not write anything about the corrugation.

They are listed, yes, which you thought it necessary to list, such confidence, an idiot or a troll confidence, simply amazes me, like you know how to use a search alone, you did not consider it necessary to bring these points of charge:

recognized the wrecking on the construction of the “DBA” aircraft, delays in the construction of stratospheric aircraft along DB-2, RD, VIT, DB-3, I-21, PB, SB, DMP;
- admitted that he thwarted Gromov’s flight to establish a range, thwarted in 1935 the government’s planned flight of Levanevsky through the North Pole to America, and in 1937, a number of wrecking acts led to the death of the crew of Levanevsky’s plane while flying to America through the North Pole. In 1924 he was recruited by Morgulis for espionage in favor of France. While in Paris in 1935, he personally transmitted espionage information about fighter planes and light bombers to French Minister of Aviation Denin.
At the interrogation on 23.11.38/XNUMX/XNUMX, Tupolev refused testimony regarding espionage.

This is not to mention the fact that the prosecution doesn’t even take a few paragraphs, even in the simplest cases, and the devil knows how many are not laid out for free access. Sorry about the corrugation, I did not write about the corrugation on the wing, how did I know that the corrugation means nothing to you, except as a defect in the skin.

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Not in dispute with me

What went lazy people ...

Quote: Liam

Quote: svp67
Have you heard anything about McCarthyism?

How many millions of Americans were shot or deported to mines in Alaska during the massive and terrible terror unleashed by Senator McCarthy?

Quote: Octopus

Quote: svp67
Have you heard anything about McCarthyism?

And how can a senator unleash terror? What powers does he have for this?

McCarthy is a heavy drinking parliamentary chatterbox. The culprit is Eisenhower. And not at all because McCarthy indulged. And because he himself was smeared with cooperation with the Councils on the ears and translated McCarthy’s activity in investigating the anti-American activities of Roosevelt, Truman and the State Department into a safe path for himself against Charlie Chaplin, gays and blacks.

Eisenhower was not Charlie Chaplin, gay or black. Eisenhower was an incompetent fool, a coward, a liar and a traitor. Naturally, he tried to ensure that these last categories of the population did not suffer from McCarthy terror.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

NO KR helped neither Germany, nor even the USSR.

Firstly, what does Korolev care about the war? Why on earth should he be interested in the international situation? Comrade Stalin, for example, should be interested in who is who, and he was trying to find 15 battleships just at that time, to fight with Britain. What did you say there, 120 thousand loss to the state?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Well, yes, I repeat. Without even knowing about the development of missiles, to write about their uselessness is DIGNESS!

You, so smart, were sorely missed.
The theme of missiles became a priority not when the aircraft began to drop bombs, but when conventional air defense on fighters became ineffective. Prior to this, all these stories went through the inventions of various enthusiasts.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Powder Cruise Missiles 217

Finally something useful, thanks. Yes, it seems that the 217th item was charged with the Queen, and his tricks with photocells on the 216th were irrelevant.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

This rocket is liquid, and you, stubbornly disputing it

I quote the indictment if you notice. But you have found a more suitable option for the prosecution, that's good.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And the deputy Kleimenova?

He is not Kleimenov’s deputy in the 36th year.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

actually set itself tasks?

You have divorced ideas from life. A work plan is a document probably signed by Kleimenov or one of his deputies. The head of the group can make proposals, no more.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Ie. you, like Korolev, do not see anything scary that all these people here will not give anything to the customer?

Of course it's okay. Little of. Korolev spoke directly about this.
Here
http://epizodsspace.airbase.ru/bibl/pion-rt72/kryl-rak.html
you can see the Royal understanding of rocket science as of the 35th year. Talking about the practical application of these ideas in the coming years is simply strange.
The work that the Research Institute is engaged in in peacetime, you know, time does not have to give a military effect for 3 years. I have no questions for Kleimenov, did he approve a rocket without SU or would not approve a job.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

to quote these points of charge:

The charges are articles of the Criminal Code, in this case paragraphs 58. What is the point in all this nonsense? The attack carried out by Tupolev - the destruction of the Lewandowski aircraft? In order to counter-revolution and restore the throne? Yes, that’s exactly what I meant by garbage.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

I didn’t write about corrugation on the wing,

Well, not on the wing, so on the fuselage, the difference is great. Or where is it with you there?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Octopus

Not in dispute with me
What went lazy people ...

Besides the fact that you are either an idiot or a troll, you are also a very impudent type.

Quote: Octopus

NO KR helped neither Germany, nor even the USSR.
Firstly, what does Korolev care about the war?

You do not know that the RNII was a defense institute, and Korolev had a military rank, and was sent to the reserve in the rank of, in fact, a general, but at the same time you carry what heresy "what does Korolev care about the war"? You are either idiot if you do not know and carry or a troll if you do.

Quote: Octopus

he was just at that time trying to find 15 battleships, to fight with Britain.

Before the war, several types of battleships were developed, only one was taken into construction, no more than four were laid, no more than your 15 were planned, for Four! fleet for 10 (ten) years. You are either an idiot or a troll.

Quote: Octopus

The theme of missiles became a priority not when planes began to drop bombs, but when conventional air defense on fighters became ineffective. Before that, all these stories went through lines of invention of various enthusiasts.

Those. Korolev also played with your missiles for the gss account, but to hell with the money, in that case the time was running out, the work of the specialists was going nowhere, and do you have something against the sharashka? You are either an idiot or a troll.

Quote: Octopus

Yes, it seems that the 217th item was charged with the Queen, and his tricks with photocells on the 216th were irrelevant.

No PV at 216 was required, and there were no tricks, it needed autopilot and some sort of flight stability, which was not there either. If you persist in FE in 216 missiles, then you are either an idiot or a troll.

Quote: Octopus

But you have found a more suitable option for the prosecution, that's good.

Well then, I had to poke it with your nose three times already, and who are you after that? Right, or idiotic or troll.

Quote: Octopus

A work plan is a document probably signed by Kleimenov or one of his deputies. The head of the group can make proposals, no more.

Immediately after the removal of the SEC from the post of deputy, the post of deputy director of the RNII was liquidated, and the head of the department remained the second after the director. A rare case when you have not shown yourself or not complete idiocy or troll.

Quote: Octopus

Ie. you, like Korolev, do not see anything scary that all these people here will not give anything to the customer?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

I will tell you more. If SU is not and never will be, this does not mean at all that aerodynamics, linkers, strengthists or dvigatelisty engage in useless work.
There will be no SU! Ie. you, like Korolev, do not see anything scary that all these people here will not give anything to the customer? Sorry, but this is idiocy, not Korolev, he would only have a rocket at least fly

Quote: Octopus

Ie. you, like Korolev, do not see anything scary that all these people here will not give anything to the customer?
Of course it's okay. Little of. Korolev spoke directly about this.
Here

It’s clear with Korolev, he didn’t care about the fact that the engine was liquid, it can be understood, people in love with the business are often blind. But to fail before 1938 over completely and knowingly worthless example is a crime. And you, if you do not understand this, are either idiotic or a troll.

Quote: Octopus

The work that the Research Institute is engaged in in peacetime, you know, time does not have to give a military effect for 3 years.

Until 1938, the SEC fell through with KR 212, almost killed himself, and nearly killed with an airplane and people. Until 1938! The war in Spain, where the USSR fought against the Franicists, and more importantly, against the German Nazis, the war in China, at the very borders of the USSR, in general, with constant skirmishes directly on the border, the Sudeten crisis. To write that this is peacetime, this is the idiocy of pure water, you respectively are either idiotic or a troll.

Quote: Octopus

The charges are articles of the Criminal Code, in this case paragraphs 58. What is the point in all this nonsense? The attack carried out by Tupolev - the destruction of the Lewandowski aircraft? In order to counter-revolution and restore the throne? Yes, that’s exactly what I meant by garbage.

The fact that you brazenly threw out important points of accusation that even anti-advisers did not dare to throw out, just because you considered them garbage, is this a sign of outright rudeness and idiocy. You are either a brazen idiot or no less brazen troll.

Quote: Octopus

I didn’t write about corrugation on the wing,
Well, not on the wing, so on the fuselage, the difference is great. Or where is it with you there?

The second case, when you behave at least not like a complete idiot or a troll. Just like an unrecognizable balabol, corrugation in the case of Tupolev, this is corrugated aircraft skin! And in the case of the Tupolev all-metal aircraft, this corrugation was everywhere, even the record ANTs were with corrugated lining, the first one was for sure, just the corrugation was covered with percale and some kind of filler. And Tupolev held on to this corrugation to the last and this is one of the motives for his sabotage of aircraft of other designers.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Octopus

Where was Arkhangelsk in 38-41 years can be found on Wikipedia.

Where is it written that he was in OKB-29 in prison? Why didn’t they place a fragment of text, were ashamed? Well, at least here you have not shown yourself to be idiotic, so by a troll cub.

Quote: Octopus

Taubin, too, was not convicted; this did not stop him from being shot.

Taubin was convicted by the Special Conference of the NKVD, according to the laws of wartime. If you did not know this, then you are a balabol; if you knew, then you are a liar and a troll.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

What if the enemy of the people of Tupolev, with the aim of destroying the Soviet aircraft industry and on the instructions of the French intelligence, slandered honest people, real communists?
What, the memory of the fish?

Quote: Octopus

What, the memory of the fish?
I still have a decent memory. With a fig, is the list of 200 people that the enemy of the people gave is the basis for the arrest of all of them? And if the enemy of the people Tupolev rewrote the phone book, then what?

What is such a decent memory?

slandered honest people, real communists

these are your words! Although the troll may have decent memory, it’s a pity to disconnect it when necessary.

Quote: Octopus

A certain Aizen Taicho knows better about airplanes than Tupolev.
not one purchased in 1935-36 in the USA, the model of aircraft in mass production by 1938 did not consist.
Everything is clear from Comrade. Taicho.

And what is it, you sent me to Vicki repeatedly, and many have complaints about the competence of Wiki articles. Well, okay, with this Wiki, that you didn’t like the lack of mass production in 1938 of the aircraft that you bought already in 1936? It is not true? Where is the rebuttal? Balabstvo only, trollchachye.

Quote: Octopus

Are you aware of fascist Italy? There was democracy and both constitution and fascism.

From this statement it follows that you are not aware of the doctrine of fascism, nor even more about the CD

Well, of course, how do I know about constitutional democrats and about "everything else's law." Italy has shown that a monarchy can exist with the actual government of the country by a dictator and the formal existence of the Constitution. How to call such a system? It is clear that if it occurred to you, why not, you will not show it. You are a liar and a troll, well, or you idiot.

Quote: Octopus

Announce the entire list

Quote: Vladimir_2U

I consider it rubbish to write down most of the clauses of article 58 in crimes against the constitutional system and the state.
Announce the entire list, and it’s very vague!

Digging around again. Take chapter 29UK (although it, too, frankly, is peculiar) and paragraphs 58, yes compare.

Well, of course, don’t announce the list of items that you consider garbage, you don’t want to poke your nose at your idiocy, you’re not an idiot, but a troll, I guess.

Quote: Octopus

What side do the false notices relate to the right to issue money?

These memos are non-cash money that the bank created from the air. The rules of those years allowed him to do this. At least the Grozny RCC.

Without even delving into it, it’s clear that comparing false advice notes with a permission to issue, which was not, by the way, hello to the boobies, is a complete idiocy. And once again, you are either an idiot or a troll.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

It’s pretty good. While Korolev was playing with his companions, the SS men fired their tactical missiles throughout the GDR.
There is no doubt that in this phrase you are derogatory about the Korolevsky passion for business.

Quote: Octopus

Korolev, as always, was fond of his own business, not a state one. The state wanted to crash, and Korolev wanted to go into space. And he was right, of course, in contrast to a crazy state.
His 300-ton rocket was suitable for space, and absolutely not suitable for gasping.

Well, it’s directly obvious that you are either an idiot or a troll. And comments are not needed.

Quote: Octopus

Seven
No
ICBMs.

Wiki, by the way:
R-7 (expand. "Seven"; GRAU index - 8K71) - a two-stage intercontinental ballistic missile with a detachable warhead weighing 3 tons and a flight range of 8 thousand km. The first intercontinental ballistic missile in the world, successfully tested and delivered a warhead to intercontinental range (August 21, 1957). If you deny it, yes with aplomb, you are either idiotic or a troll.

Quote: Octopus

Yangel not earlier than 1960 created his own ICBM. So get smart somewhere else.

In the 63rd R16U stood on the database. Royal 9A a year later and in a minimal amount.

What did you bring this to, be smart? Or 63 a year before your 60th. has arrived? Who you are after this is correct, either idiotic or a troll.

Quote: Octopus

And what, she couldn’t hit your adored USA with a nuclear warhead?
Of course not, with such a start procedure, the number and size of launchers. Would cover without options. This system could not provide a guaranteed answer, only a preemptive strike, and then how lucky.

You probably imagine that you didn’t stand on the R-7 database? What didn’t allow you to look into the wiki, idiocy?

In addition, the rocket could be in the charged state for no more than 30 days

Even a ten-day constant readiness for launch means that at least two missiles simultaneously could immediately go to America. With almost three megaton warheads, without the possibility of interception, with a half-hour flight time. So you persist in denying this, either idiotic or a troll.

Quote: Octopus

I’ll ask you to answer this question!
What do you answer there? When the USSR put into service the R-11M, terrible trash, MGM-29 Sergeant was brewing in the dungeon near the enemies, and in the Fulda corridor there was MGM-5. Soviet counterpart MGM-29? Huh? Oka 9K714 80th year?

No, well, what an audacity, just throw out the question itself!

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Are you just pretending to be a fool or are you trolling like that? I’ll ask you to answer this question!

That was the question, oh, where is the answer? Are you pretending to be a fool or a troll? Although even if you sort the answer type, then everything is clear.

When the USSR put into service the R-11M, terrible trash, MGM-29 Sergeant was brewing in the dungeon near the enemies, and MGM-5 was in the Fulda corridor. Soviet counterpart MGM-29? Huh? Oka 9K714 80th year?

How does it feel? Compare missiles with a gap in adoption for service in 7 years for a conventional warhead and in 4 nuclear, 1955 and 1958 against 1962? And where is 8K14. 9K72 [SS-1C. SCUD B]? Also adopted in 1962, by the way. Where is "Mars", "Moon"? Where is all this? Why didn't they?

MGM-29? Huh? Oka 9K714 80th year

And what is it? There was no solid fuel in the USSR with similar characteristics, so liquid rockets were made until it appeared. What didn’t you understand? That you are idiotic or a troll?

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Where is it written that he was in OKB-29 in prison?

You have a phrase from which it was released in 1941. may cause a discussion. I do not have.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Taubin was convicted by the Special Conference of the NKVD,

Not convicted, but shot by the decision of Beria's NKVD in agreement with the USSR prosecutor comrade Bochkov (an excellent prosecutor, before that - the head of the NKVD prison department, after that - the head of the NKVD escort troops department). This is called "administratively". The Soviet Themis differs from the bourgeois by an exceptionally light attitude towards any paperwork.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

these are your words!

I understand you correctly that if someone wrote a list of opera to a friend of the opera, I don’t know, French spies on 12 sheets, which included, I don’t know, you, is this sufficient reason for your arrest and sufficient proof of your guilt?

Your desire to remove the blame from the Chekists and put all of it on the bespectacled people would be touching. If it weren’t about the bloody crap in which your grandparents lived. Even if they themselves worked in this glorious organization.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And what is it, you sent me to Vicki repeatedly

And what does Vika have to do with it? 1. Vika is not ZhZshechka anonymous. 2. Vika is the beginning of a conversation. You can refute it - refute it. But relying on sources that are already more serious than vetch.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

did you like the lack of mass production in 1938 of the aircraft that you bought already in 1936? It is not true?

And in what crazy world will the USSR suddenly start producing American aircraft in a year or two, if the USSR has nothing at all for their production, starting with fasteners of American standard sizes? For 5 years, the Douglas was barely pulled out, which became obsolete more slowly than military vehicles. Why the hell is the USSR four-engine amphibious, the Soviet Kawanishi H6K, not a question for Tupolev. See 15 Battleships.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Wiki, by the way:
R-7 (expand "seven"; GRAU index - 8K71) - two-stage intercontinental ballistic missile

Well, the Soviet government gave this product as an ICBM, and the encyclopedia is not a place for discussion.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

You brought it to what

Moreover, the retaliatory strike on the territory of the United States from its territory of the USSR could be made only in the 63rd. Prior to this - either in Europe, or, with luck, a submarine with RSD will break through.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

DB R-7 was not charged?

She did not stand at all, except in the case of grandiose riffraffs. She lay in the assembly shop.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Even a ten-day constant readiness for launch means that at least two missiles simultaneously could immediately go to America. WITH

In the case of R-7, this means that the USSR is not capable of retaliation, only of a preventive one. Never, neither before nor after, a massive blow to the USSR was such a rational decision. God of the USSR Eisenhower did not go - the lousy could end.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

7 years for a non-nuclear warhead

Who cares about a non-nuclear warhead with such a QUO?

Speaking of useless, wrecking weapons.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

1955 and 1958 vs 1962?

In the 55th year, the MGM-5 was already in combat units in Europe.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And where is 8K14. 9K72 [SS-1C. SCUD B]? Also adopted in 1962, by the way. Where is "Mars", "Moon"?

Funny, but really an analogue of the sergeant - 9K79 Point - you missed.

In future. All this in the future.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And what is it? There was no solid fuel in the USSR with similar characteristics

Nothing. Poverty is not a vice. Only here I would hold on to the theme of the excellent Soviet OTR / RMD, after all.

[Vladimir_2U]

Oh, but didn’t I write to you that I consider you either an idiot or a troll? Sorry, I forgot to write again: I consider you either an idiot or a troll! And your magic rating says a lot. And it is well known that talking with such characters is simply stupid.

[Octopus]

Well, sir
Firstly, you are completely in vain trying to offend me.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

That was the question

We are not in the tinder, I am not going to discuss myself with you personally.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Korolev had a military rank

At that moment, no.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

and was sent to stock

The army doesn’t need it - it means it’s not needed.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

took only one

Only one type, Soviet Yamato.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

laid no more than four

And you need to lay all 15 at the same time?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

not more than your 15, on Four! fleet for 10 (ten) years

For 10 years, from the end of the "battleship vacation" to the end of WWII, Britain and the USA together, major maritime powers, built no more than your 15 LK. Of these, only 4 are close to pr 23, the rest are significantly weaker.
Especially good comrade. Stalin guessed right with the timing. "Soviet Russia" was founded a month after the surrender of France. It's time to build battleships, what could go wrong?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Those. Korolev also played with your missile launcher for your gss account, but to hell with money, in that case the time passed, the work of specialists went nowhere,

The work of specialists went to the Soviet cosmonautics of the 50s. The customer does not like the Soviet cosmonautics of the 50s, but they like the NURSs for the future war (which, to be honest, were done very poorly) - he takes the institute's work plan and crosses out all that is superfluous.
Let me remind you that when the old leadership was shot and informers were put in its place, the situation with the NURSs did not improve.

More than 150 rocket engines of various types and about 80 jet aircraft were developed in the USSR before World War II. But an impressive number of those and others did not develop into proper quality. Only the above RS-82, RS-132 and one of the subsequent samples of the M-13 powder propellant projectiles passed the full test cycle, they were only taken into service. Of the rest of the list of engines, rockets and jet propelled vehicles, the majority of the tests [we are talking about landfill, not bench tests] were not presented at all and remained only in models or in projects on paper. The same part that was subjected to flight tests, showed, to put it mildly, well, very modest results. And to be completely fundamental, these very so-called tests themselves, in the full sense of the word, were not. And they were only experimental launches, the main purpose of which was to get answers to questions: will this or that newly created construction take off or not take off, and if it takes off, how far will it fly away?

Without exception, all work on aircraft jet engines designed and executed in specific forms under the direction of Sergey Pavlovich Korolev was completed either as unpromising or not to achieve the calculated values. None of the products during the test, and especially those on which attempts were made to organize a control system, showed a stable flight or acceptable reliability. None of his aircraft was adopted by the Red Army.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

No PV at 216 was required, and there were no tricks,

There were just some tricks. Pervushin A.I., Empire of Sergey Korolev, S. 62

Quote: Vladimir_2U

the post of deputy director of the RNII liquidated

The post of deputy director of the RNII was liquidated together with Comrade. Langemak.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

But to fail before 1938 over a completely and obviously worthless model

As mentioned above, almost everything that the organization was engaged in was worthless crafts (but these crafts were seeds. The main harm to the Red Army was done by the RS-82 and RS-132, our legendary Katyusha). Just like almost everything else that was done before the arms war. But this is absolutely no reason to make complaints to the engineers.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

To write that this is a peaceful time,

Quote: Vladimir_2U

The war in Spain, where the USSR fought against the Franicists, and more importantly, against the German Nazis, the war in China, at the very borders of the USSR, in general, with constant skirmishes directly on the border, the Sudeten crisis.

To any of the above, the USSR, according to Comrade. Litvinov, had no relationship. The first official conflict is Lake. Hassan, August 38th. In any case, the People’s Commissariat of Heavy Industry doesn’t give a damn about all these stories. They are engaged in other drug commissariats.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

The fact that you brazenly threw out important points of accusation

I have repeatedly pointed out your sad level of legal awareness. Tupolev was accused of (simplifying):
With the aim of assassinating the main political or economic gains of the proletarian revolution
1. Spied.
2. Undermined industry, trade and transport (sabotage).
3. Destroyed transport (terrorism) undermining, arson and other means.
4. Participated in the organization of all this disgrace (this is a separate charge).

Exactly this - Indictment. The part where articles of the Criminal Code are indicated.

By the way, above I incorrectly painted the points on which Tupolev was accused. I took the numbering of points of the 26th year, in the 30th another edition acted.

Further comrade Esipenko only sets out the plot of the case:
Under paragraph 1, he handed over the blueprints to the French Minister of Aviation (he himself admitted the bastard, but handed it back).
According to paragraph 2, I damaged Soviet industry by disrupting the construction of stratospheric aircraft (I myself admitted to it) (stratospheric aircraft were still missing from the USSR of the 30s with its motors. What, say, claims to useless missiles?)
Under item 3, I ruined Levanevsky (he himself, a bastard, admitted).
According to paragraph 4. I scored pests in TsAGI (and who else?).

Absolutely everyone who was involved in this and similar examples of "justice" deserved a place at the wall. Not the Kremlin.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Tupolev, this corrugation was everywhere, even the record ANTs were with corrugated lining,

And what is the tragedy? The SB of the 34th year is no longer a Tupolev plane? Mid-40s aircraft with plywood cladding Do you like more?

[Vladimir_2U]

Oh, but didn’t I write to you that I consider you either an idiot or a troll? Sorry, I forgot to write again: I consider you either an idiot or a troll! And your magic rating says a lot. And it is well known that talking with such characters is simply stupid.

[Vladimir_2U]

And yes, I haven’t read your comments, see my comment above.

[Sahalinets]

And let's plant you specifically? You will finally begin to work as it should ... What, do not want to?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Sahalinets

And let's plant you specifically? You will finally begin to work as it should ...

This is the entry! This is the argument! Well, let's, at least for a start, collect the "troika" with powers. Or you can submit an application to the prosecutor's office, department "E" of some sort. Although it is better to disassemble the trash in your head.

[fk7777777]

Not only the NKVD, after all, they were engaged in denunciations, slander, they were simply swearing around the corner, these were the "people" who were around. It's like now, the kid shot 8 freaks and what's next? ...

[Avior]

There is a big difference between denunciations and reaction to them.
A denunciation is a piece of paper, and there is no harm from it, even the benefits are there, you can wipe it until a concrete decision has been made on it. And there are questions to those who made these decisions without understanding

[DMB 75]

Who was the chief designer ... Why to single out one, the whole team, from designers to ordinary workers involved in the creation of the legend ... It was the collective mind that created the glorious tank, the Stalin prize was not the only one for it, after all, the person received .. All and thank them for the Victory tank.

[fk7777777]

Now, if not for these people, if not for their willpower? Now, if you said oh, kay "bros" you will have carriages sheathed with tin with fuzees. If they took it and did nothing? What then? Was it with the country? Why there is no showdown, why the descendants of these scum, who were engaged in slander, wrote denunciations, are not in jail? Yes, the people, as they were scum, and remained rotten, they could only be smart and talented, they should not blame everything on Stalin, he did not write denunciations, he did not slander and lied, engaged in slander. And it was not he who signed the execution lists. For the most part, not a people, but a rabble of bastards, freaks, and mentally disabled people.

[John22]

The Stalinist system created an atmosphere of general suspicion and encouraged denunciations - this time. And the same system, destroying specialists and putting mediocrity and toadies to command posts, justified its mistakes by the subversive activities of the enemies of the people. And denunciations are the results of the system. If earlier a neighbor yelled at another neighbor that his chicken in his garden had torn a garden, now (in the current situation in the country) he wrote a denunciation to the NKVD that his neighbor served Kolchak or Dinikin. A neighbor immediately, without trial, was taken away forever. And now, already, denunciations were scribbling at him. But Stalin is not to blame. The system created by him is to blame.

[AUL]

There was such a sad joke of those times:
Bring a new convict into the chamber. They ask him - and for what they took you?
- Yes, for laziness!
- What, did it work poorly?
- No, it worked fine. At the end of the day, we had one cupcake told a political joke, everyone ran to knock right away, and I was too lazy, I thought - in the morning I would snitch. And they took me in the evening ...

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: John22

And the same system, destroying specialists and putting mediocrity and toadies to command posts, justified its mistakes by the subversive activities of the enemies of the people.

Yes, that’s why they won the Great Patriotic War, and built a lot of excellent weapons, and created nuclear weapons, all because the experts were destroyed, and mediocrity and sneaky reigned. Logics!

[The leader of the Redskins]

I read and read a lot about tanks (tank building), but only once came across an article of similar content. As a Soviet man, I got used to the thesis of genius Koshkin. But genius can be not only a designer, but also an organizer))) Read interesting.

[Vladimir_2U]

Honestly, for a long time I have not considered the T-34 to be a genius tank directly, all the same, BT-shny roots have affected, all these springs inside the case, the tower is over-compressed, the side height is considerable. That T-44 and especially T-54/55 is yes! And it’s a pity that they did not develop the T-12/24, but it looks even more like a modern tank than the T-34-76! BT is a real wrecking, in my opinion, the T-26 had at least a proven production technology.

[The leader of the Redskins]

Well, let me disagree ... The listed models have a different class and were created for different concepts.
Whole monographs have been written about the flaws of T34. They are famous and no one denies them. But, you see, without thirty-four there would not be 44!)))
And the indicated m24 was also not ideal. The error of longline armament was proved by the Americans with the "grand". And up to 34 there was no serial anti-cannon armor)

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

The listed models have a different class and were created for different concepts

T-34, 44 and 54/55 are all medium tanks, and for one application.

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

And the indicated m24 was also not ideal. The error of longline armament was proved by the Americans with the "grand"

He was not an ideal, but the layout is closer to modern cars than BT. You are mistaken, the T-24 does not closely resemble the M-3 Grant / Lee, they had the main gun in the sponson, unlike the T-24, in which the gun was in the tower, as it should, and the machine-gun turret is such a DUBM in the pre-war manner, which is replaced by the commander’s time to spit. )))
By the way, I found a photo that I never saw, and which shows the significant modernization potential of the T-24:

[The leader of the Redskins]

I had in mind the different classes of bt and t34. Light and medium.
The Grand was a three-tiered arrangement. In fact, also in two towers, submachine guns.
But in addition, the T24 has an archaic suspension and valve body. It would take a long time to bring it to mind and, I think, would reach the level of Japanese tanks. Also rivets and external spring suspension)))

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

I had in mind the different classes of bt and t34. Light and medium.

All the more ambiguous is the creation of a medium tank based on light solutions.

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

The Grand was a three-tiered arrangement. In fact, also in two towers, submachine guns.

You seem to poorly understand the main claim to the M3 Lee, the turrets had to be cumbersome due to the fact that the main 76 mm gun was in the sponson, actually in the tank’s body, and by the way in the English version, which Grant refused the third tier, but the second, tower, gun had to be left, due to the archaic location of the main gun.

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

But in addition, the T24 has an archaic suspension and valve body

Well, you still require a Po-2 jet engine. )) Year of creation of the T-24, between us, 1930-31. And note, Merkava, MK 1 for sure, has an external spring suspension ...

[svp67]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

I had in mind the different classes of bt and t34. Light and medium.

Light, medium, these are all so much conditional, especially since this qualification appeared later. And so, these tanks were similar in purpose, namely, they were created as tanks of mechanized units, the British called them "cruising". This is what you should always proceed from, from the destination. Therefore, it makes no sense to compare the T-34 and the Tiger, but it makes sense to compare the T-34 and the Panther ...

[John22]

BT-2 and BT-5 also had riveted hulls and towers. But later they began to put welded towers. BT-7 was already welded. Those. there is an evolution of production. So in everything.

[John22]

T-24 was the first independent development in the USSR. Gradually modifying and exploiting it - erroneous decisions would disappear. And the accumulated experience would be used in new designs. As is the case with HF. But they started with the QMS and the T-100.

[svp67]

Quote: John22

erroneous decisions would disappear.

And how long would it take? And did the USSR have it? I think the path to creating my tank industry, chosen by the leadership of the USSR, is correct. We bought other people's good developments, managed to learn and repeat them at their plants, to train workers, engineers and designers on them, and then begin to first upgrade them and then create new designs

[The leader of the Redskins]

Moreover, the British sold us what they themselves were not good. Yes, and the Americans contracted Christy with a stick in the wheel.
Our designers were able to modernize the equipment, remake it to their requirements and already at these developments to create samples that meet the time. Indeed, you must admit that the two tower T26 model of 1931 is very different from the latest modifications!

[svp67]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

Moreover, the British sold us what they themselves were not good.

I do not agree here. Vickers - 6 tons, was very good, at that time, in many ways.

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

Yes, and the Americans contracted Christy with a stick in the wheel.

It's all about the familiar word "sanctions". The USSR at that time was under the most severe US sanctions, and nevertheless, the tanks were delivered fully loaded, including with weapons, there are acceptance certificates, with an accurate description of the delivery ...

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

Indeed, you must admit that the two tower T26 model of 1931 is very different from the latest modifications!

Yes, he was different, but he was also a very good car, in its class - "trench broom",

[The leader of the Redskins]

Then I will insert five cents. The fact that Vickers 6 tons is not a bad tank was seen by many, but not Her Majesty's army. The British did not accept it, but they exported it to us, Poles and other countries with pleasure.

[svp67]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

but not Her Majesty's army

They, as we have now, simply did not have the proper funding to buy these tanks to replace, the "hardware" that was made during WWI

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

two tower T26 model 1931

The British had a normal turret cannon tank at the time of purchase, we just didn’t have a well-developed tank cannon, as far as I remember, we did not consider 37 mm with a shoulder rest as such.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: svp67

And how long would it take? And did the USSR have it

T-24 in the year 30 took, T-12, respectively, earlier.

Quote: svp67

We bought other people's good developments, managed to learn and repeat them in their factories

If Vickers (prototype T-26) is a really proven machine with advanced technology, then Christy is a crude semi-model, moreover, a dead end, gobbling up a bunch of resources and time and, by and large, descended from the scene even before World War II.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: John22

T-24 was the first independent development in the USSR. Gradually modifying and exploiting it - erroneous decisions would disappear

Not quite so, because the T-24 based on the T-12 was created, and before it there were different BTT models. And the most interesting, it is closest to the modern understanding of the tank, judge, a single MTO, one tower with the main gun, three towers. It remains only to change the machine-gun turret to the commander’s one, accordingly changing the responsibilities of the towers, it’s a little more rational to arrange the frontal part and a decent medium tank is ready! The fact that already in its original form the T-24 succumbed well to modernization can be seen from the photo that I quoted above.

[ser56]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

The error of longline armament was proved by the Americans with the "grand".

look at the T-90m - machine guns also stand ...

[bar]

It should be noted that to develop a breakthrough design of the tank, a design genius was needed, but Koshkin was not.

Phew, what an arrogant stupidity. I did not read further.
Who gave you the right to judge the size of a genius? Do you have a special ruler for measuring genius? If you did not know, then the main constructor is first of all head design team, not a loner inventor. And as a leader, Koshkin proved himself fully, devoted himself completely to the development, promotion and production of a new tank, and put his life into it. It is a shame from a well-fed and prosperous future going to dirty such a person.

[Jurkovs]

So who invented the wheel?

[Amateur]

I venture to incur the wrath of VO subscribers without denying the prominent role of the T-34 tanks in the Victory in the Second World War, but nonetheless from the bell tower of the 21st century:
1. The inclined shape of the frontal armor and turret was tested on the BT-7.

2. Instead of the advanced torsion bar suspension, the outdated Christie "candlestick" suspension was used, which occupied almost half of the tank's reserved volume.

In connection with the project for the "large" modernization of the T-34 tank in the USSR, the question of the development of the suspension was raised as early as September 1940. On November 19, 1940, the resolution of the Defense Committee No. 428 obliged the NKSM and the People’s Commissariat of Defense of the USSR to submit proposals on January 1, 1941, on the transition to the production of T-34 tanks with a new chassis with torsion bar suspension. (Wiki)

3. The frontal plate of the tank was weakened by the "holes" in the mechanic drive hatch and the machine gun. And if the hatch is a necessary measure because of Christie's suspension (there was nowhere to plant the mechanic drive because of the turret moved forward), then the hole in the course machine gun is not sabotage?
4. Diesel B-2. It was used on the BT-7M and all other new tanks of that time.
Conclusion: The designers created a tank with 45 mm of armor, transferring to it all both the shortcomings and rational decisions of the BT tanks, without thinking at all why they were doing this. As a result, the tank was redone throughout the war. T-34 40 years and T-34-85 44 years - very different tanks.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Amateur

Instead of advanced torsion bar suspension

Too, at the time of the development of the T-34, this suspension was advanced, we only started using it on HF, if I'm not mistaken. For the rest, I basically agree. )))

[svp67]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

this suspension was advanced, we only started using it on HF, if I'm not mistaken

On the T-50, moreover, they decided to install it on the T-34M

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: svp67

On the T-50, not only on the T-34M

That the one that later was not even the A-32, later the T-34s were developed, especially the T-34M))). I'm not sure, but at first there were big problems with the torsion bars (their calculation), and they were installed on the KV (more precisely, the SMK) with excessive "power", and only after digging up experience and improving the calculation methods, they took up torsion bars for medium and light cars.

[svp67]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

I'm not sure, but at first there were big problems with the torsion bars (their calculation), and they were installed on HF (more precisely, SMK) with excessive "power",

I won’t be surprised, and at least in some ways the HF was super reliable

[lucul]

The frontal plate of the tank was weakened by the "holes" in the mechanic drive hatch and the machine gun. And if the hatch is a necessary measure because of Christie's suspension (there was nowhere to plant the mechanic drive because of the turret moved forward), then the hole in the course machine gun is not sabotage?

You read the German memories of the T-34 in 1941. There is quiet horror - only an 88mm caliber anti-aircraft gun or old 150mm howitzers could penetrate a tank. Ordinary infantry anti-tank guns did not penetrate his frontal armor. It was then that the sub-calibers and the 88mm tank guns appeared. But in 1941 the frontal armor on the T-34 was a miracle as good.
It is a pity that the lack of normal tank radios and the gearbox, which constantly jammed / wedged in second gear, and depriving the tank of the maneuverability it had put, spoiled the oil painting ....

[Alexey RA]

Quote: lucul

You read the German memories of the T-34 in 1941. There is quiet horror - only an 88mm caliber anti-aircraft gun or old 150mm howitzers could penetrate a tank. Ordinary infantry anti-tank guns did not penetrate his frontal armor.

It's just that those who knocked out the T-34 without any problems did not leave such memories: they knocked out and drove on.
In fact, taking into account the Germans' love for firing aboard, with the competent construction of the T-34 anti-tank missile, there were no problems for the Germans.

50-mm anti-tank gun PaK.38, ordinary armor-piercing:
The 75-mm sheet normal showed the back strength limit of 700 m, the through penetration limit of 400 m. That is, starting from a distance of 700 m and closer PaK.38 can penetrate unshielded HF armor, with 400 m it is guaranteed to break through.
The 45-mm sheet along the normal showed the through penetration limit of 1500 m, at an angle of 30 degrees to the normal 1300 m.
That is, PaK.38 confidently hits the T-34 in the side and the tower at any real combat distance.

37-mm anti-tank gun PaK.36, ordinary armor-piercing:
The 45-mm sheet normal showed a rear strength limit of 700 meters - that is, starting from 700 meters the “mallet” can dig through the side and the T-34 turret.

© D. Shein

Quote: lucul

It is a pity that the lack of normal tank radios and the gearbox, which constantly jammed / wedged in second gear, and depriving the tank of the maneuverability it had put, spoiled the oil painting ....

The gearbox did not jam - just shifting gears to the T-34 was dangerous. Firstly, when shifting gears, the tank slowed down to a stop. And secondly, as the Kubinka experts wrote, gear shifting is dangerous. So the driver entered the second - and forward, at 12-14 km / h. And no maneuver of speed. However, the driver didn’t have enough without this activity - he still had to work with leverage with an effort of 35 kg.

[Octopus]

Everything is more or less true, except

Quote: Amateur

then a course machine gun hole - why not wrecking?

This is the logic of WOT. In those years, it was believed that a machine gun was needed.

Quote: Amateur

Instead of the advanced torsion bar suspension, the outdated Christie "candlestick" suspension was used, which occupied almost half of the tank's reserved volume.

Kharkov made a car for himself, he had no experience in torsion bars. A-32 was already a project with an extreme degree of novelty, and even a new suspension could finally bury him. With the afterthought, it was obvious that the best solution at that time for the first half of the 40s was trolleys, but this is the way of Leningraders, and it was Leningraders who went to torsion bars, perhaps prematurely.

Quote: Amateur

As a result, the tank was redone throughout the war.

T-34 brought to mind 5 years. Unfortunately, 5 war years. Later, already in peacetime, the T-54 took the same amount of time.

[Amateur]

extreme novelty project

What is its extremeness. What is fundamentally new in comparison with the existing tanks at that time? (In addition to post-war propaganda) ~ 60000 T-34s were produced, incl. 1066 (Wiki) on 22,06,1941 How many of them "survived" until the end of the war?

[Octopus]

Quote: Amateur

What is its extremeness. What is fundamentally new compared to the tanks existing at that time?

Extreme novelty for Kharkov. Compared to the BT-7, almost everything is new there, including weight and concept.

[Amateur]

Extreme novelty for Kharkov. Compared to the BT-7, almost everything is new there, including weight and concept.

And for Anadyr in Chukotka, it is probably still fundamentally new. The Kharkov Tractor Plant was the basic Soviet tank factory. So it was necessary to adapt the plant, not the tank. Otherwise they would have released "Freedom Fighter Comrade. Renault Lenin "

[Octopus]

Quote: Amateur

Kharkov Tractor

Steam locomotive, KhPZ.

Quote: Amateur

So it was necessary to adapt the plant, not the tank.

You operate with aftertaste. When the A-32 appeared, no one saw in it a single medium tank, the Soviet Sherman. The main Soviet tank was considered the future lighter Leningrad machine. It was reasonably believed that in the late 30s, tanks of 10-20 ton class were massive. Even the four exceeded 20 tons only at the end of the 39th.

[svp67]

Quote: Amateur

forced measure because of Christie’s suspension (there was nowhere to plant a mechwater driver due to a tower pushed forward),

Not because of this the tower was shifted, but because of the longitudinal arrangement of the engine and the placement of transmission elements in the stern, the suspension did not play any role on this

Quote: Amateur

then a course machine gun hole - why not wrecking?

It’s just following the general tradition of tank building, by the way, we only refused the machine gun on the T-62

Quote: Amateur

Conclusion: The designers created a tank with 45 mm of armor, transferring to it all both the shortcomings and rational decisions of the BT tanks, without thinking at all why they were doing this.

No, they just customized the tank to well-known and proven solutions, as well as production capabilities.

Quote: Amateur

T-34 40 years and T-34-85 44 years - very different tanks.

Only in particular, they are basically the same

[Amateur]

By the way, we only refused the machine gun on the T-62

Well, how do you find the machine gun on the T-44?

[svp67]

Quote: Amateur

Well, how do you find the machine gun on the T-44?

Easy...

1 — upper inclined leaf of the bow; 2 - towing hook; 3 - spring latch hook; 4 - turret leaf; 5 — place of the motor partition; 6 — place for the tower shoulder strap; 7 - a place for the location of the roof above the engine and the roof of the OVER transmission; 8 — caps of armored exhaust pipes; 9 - torsion bar bracket: 10 - wing above the caterpillar; 11 - cutout to the armor for the prism periscope; 12 — side sheet; 13 — the hatch of the mechanic ”of the driver; 14 — viewing gap of the driver; 15 — sloth bracket; 16- lower inclined leaf of the bow; 17 - hole
for firing a machine gun DTM

Installation of the DT course machine gun in the T-44 tank.

[tank64rus]

Koshkin had already worked as a designer in a tank design bureau in St. Petersburg and was awarded the Order of the Red Star for developing a gearbox for a medium tank, so it is not true to represent him only as a talented organizer.

[John22]

So why, then, on the T-34 until 1943 was a terrible checkpoint? Why didn’t Koshkin promote his awarded checkpoint to him?

[svp67]

Quote: John22

So why, then, on the T-34 until 1943 was a terrible checkpoint? Why didn’t Koshkin promote his awarded checkpoint to him?

Excuse me, are you sure that that "koshkin" checkpoint would work well on the T-34?
Our tank designers were just learning and made a lot of mistakes. In particular, when switching from the M-5 engine to the M-17, a different torque was not taken into account, as a result, the tanks of the first series with the M-17 quickly went out of order ... very quickly. Unfortunately, the same happened with the BT-7M, KV, and T-34 ... they did not take into account all the features of the diesel engine and got a bunch of problems with the reliability of the transmission

[boris epstein]

That gearbox was intended for the T-46-5 (T-111) tank and was weak for the T-34. Yes, and Koshkin just did not have time, he died in 1940. He also had the idea of ​​installing a torsion bar suspension on the T-34M. I didn’t have time ... No wonder the Luftwaffe bombed a cemetery where MI Koshkin would be buried

[svp67]

Quote: Boris Epstein

He also had the idea of ​​installing a torsion bar suspension on the T-34M.

He could have had a lot of ideas, in particular, installing the engine across the body, but in a particular project he did not manage to draw them up. His main task was the creation and design support of the production of the T-34 stream. The T-34M project was already being done without it, and it appeared after our military had a close acquaintance with the German Pz-III

[boris epstein]

It is Koshkin’s presence of these ideas that proves that he was, first and foremost, a Designer, and, second, a manager, and a good manager, we must give him his due. A talented person is talented in everything. And the installation of the engine across the hull, the frontal armor plate without the machine gun, the offset of the tower closer to the center of the hull were realized by AA Morozov on the T-44.

[svp67]

Quote: Boris Epstein

.A the installation of the engine across the hull, the frontal armor plate without the machine gun, the turret displacement closer to the center of the hull were realized by AA Morozov on the T-44.

alas, but the T-44 tank machine gun WAS PRESENT

[Jarserge]

Take to collect all the gossip, 100 hundred years ago, all the doubts and personal opinions of people who were in the center of events and not so much and pass them off as the ultimate truth. Do you know why investigators and historians double-check all eyewitness testimonies and do not trust them? Very simply, everyone who writes memoirs and memoirs, willingly or unwillingly, exaggerates their participation in events, the significance of their personality and their awareness. There is even such an expression "lying as an eyewitness." Koshkin was the chief designer, first of all, the organizer. Yes, and his colleagues and contemporaries know better ...

[Krasnoyarsk]

= ... and military misunderstanding of the development prospects of tanks ... =
Something in this phrase I do not like. It is the military that sets the TTT for the designers. And the designers are trying to satisfy these tactical and technical requirements.
This is not the first time I notice how in articles about design bureaus and designers, the military are presented as idiots, unable to understand the "genius" engineers and in every possible way hampering the development of "scientific thought"

[Mikhail3]

Stalin tried to establish "accounting and control." The trouble was that they needed specialists no less than those who did the main work. That is, it was necessary to take half of the engineers, and instead of doing the actual work, put them to monitor the work of the other half. In the conditions when there were not enough engineers to solve production problems, it would be ridiculous if it were not impossible at all.
The next problem was the so-called. "specialty". Stalin set up training for young engineers. They came to factories, factories, design bureaus. And who met them there? First of all, workers who have lost the habit (and many have never been able to) work efficiently and hard. And secondly - the communist leadership, with orders and medals, having revolutionary merits, and directed to the factories in terms of the next initiative or recruitment. That is, these people did not understand the ear or the snout in production and management.
All these "greeters" saw natural enemies in the young engineers. And for every newly arrived engineer, a wave of anonymous denunciations immediately rolled over. And who checked them? They were checked by denunciation specialists. Stalin simply did not have a system to check WORK.
This is all - the biggest mistake, the biggest fault, the biggest failure of Stalin. Even the management genius, which Stalin undoubtedly was, could not overcome the systemic problems of his basic education. The idea that "there are no irreplaceable" is good during church services, anyone can read prayers and sing psalms. And in science and technology the majority are irreplaceable! Here and now, at this particular moment, it is impossible to change a single person in a well-coordinated engineering team without careful study of this step! And such a study would not be carried out by the NKVD ...
All this is very sad.

[Octopus]

Quote: Mikhail3

Stalin simply did not have a system that would test JOB.
This is all - the biggest mistake, the biggest fault, the biggest failure of Stalin.

This is a very big topic. The political leadership of the USSR brought both great benefit and enormous damage to the country's defense capabilities.

[Mikhail3]

Exactly. It was not possible to establish truly effective management of production and the economy. At the same time, cybernetics was suspiciously deceived in time, and outstanding economists thundered into the camps ...

[Avior]

Cybernetics came under distribution rather by accident.
No one had any special complaints about its technical application, but in the West cybernetics began to spread to the field of social and social disciplines, but the fact that cybernetics claimed instead of the party and government to rule the people, they could not forgive her

[lucul]

It should be noted that to develop a breakthrough design of the tank, a design genius was needed, but Koshkin was not.

Yes, you don’t need to be a genius - it’s enough to be a person who sees the picture quite clearly, and most importantly - there must be a desire and the ability to achieve it.

[old grandfather]

"... the threaded connections were soaked in hot oil," and to what depth were the bolts "soaked"?

[Mikhail3]

Laughter for no reason ... This "thread impregnation" operation was standard. Bad steel, which was cut on a machine with not very good cutters, gave threads of disgusting quality, with undercuts, breaks, the edges crumbled ... In addition, all this rusted almost instantly. Therefore, the tin oil can warmed up, and grease, nigrol, that was, was poured into each threaded connection. We'll see how it goes. Of course, a puddle was obtained near each thread, but the hot lubricant penetrates very well between the parts connected by the thread, the surface tension force and low viscosity of the hot oil affect. The work is hard and not very intellectual, but rubbing parts will not bite with rust, the bolts will not firmly grab ...

[Operator]

Alekseenko - author of the idea, Firsov - designer, Koshkin - manager, Dick - wrecker of the T-34 project

[BAI]

The Americans claim that the main technical solutions of the T-34 are American. Those. the creator of the T-34 is one of the Americans.

[Sahalinets]

The gearbox is exactly from some 1928 American tractor. They noticed this in tests in the USA. And it became known to us. Docks published.

[Disorder]

This is not a historical and technical article, but some kind of Santa Barbara. Description of the ordeal of the "brilliant" designer from the "former", whose work was used by a party functionary.

[75 Sergey]

The campaign went too far with the bleaching of the "Soviet past", they began to blacken again ...
These "swings" have already been bored, and it is possible to agree that there is no one better than the current bureaucrats and oligarchs.

[Mikhail3]

Do not go with the flow. And do not swim against the tide either. Swim where you need to go! Do not slander, do not whitewash, do not paint questions and topics. Understand them! Then everything will become clear, and paint will not be needed.

[vladcub]

What led to the creation of the T-34? Firsov's talent, Koshkin's organizational skills and Ordzhonikidze's "nose". Sergo was a medical assistant by education, a revolutionary and a talented organizer by his "work". He knew how to select personnel and with the appointment of Koshkin, which is said to be in the "top ten,"

[Mikhail3]

However, the "supernarskomat", which united perhaps the entire industry of the USSR under the leadership of Ordonikidze, was managed with great difficulty and did not work in the best way. Car bikes and photo bridges and tractor factories are generally difficult to manage. And Ordzhonikidze did not agree to divide the area of ​​responsibility into more intelligible People's Commissariats to hysterics ...

[123456789]

Who was the chief designer of the T-34?

“Victory has a thousand fathers, and defeat is always an orphan”

[vladcub]

I know this about aphorism

[boris epstein]

"Two years before his appointment to Kharkov, he graduated from the Leningrad Polytechnic Institute and then worked as a designer in the tank design bureau of the Leningrad Kirov Plant. That was the end of his experience in the development of tanks."
Koshkin in Leningrad continued to develop the design of the Ginzburg tank with T-46-5 (T-111) anti-ballistic armor. But tests showed that the engine was weak, the tracks were narrow (due to which patency was affected), the 45 mm caliber guns were weak. Yes, and the booking left much to be desired. It was there that Koshkin came up with the idea of ​​inclined booking, although it was not new. the reservation was on Mgebrov’s armored car (1914). Projectile armor, a diesel engine, and a powerful gun were in the design of the tank VD Mendeleev, for which the tsar did not allocate money from the treasury. As they say, ideas are in the air. That's where Koshkin got the idea combine all this in one project. He submitted such a project to Ordzhonikidze, after which he was transferred to Kharkov. I fully admit that Firsov also had the same project, but he still had the wheel-tracked one. And Koshkin had to prove the right to develop a purely tracked project through Stalin. permission required not to stop working on the wheeled-tracked A-20.

[1536]

In this kind of articles concerning the development and production of the Weapon of Victory, I would like to see a list of literature, sources, links to archival funds, to the memoirs of the leaders of the defense industry, finally, on which the author relied. Otherwise, in the next article, one of the “researchers” will say that, “No, it’s Petrov and Mikhailov who were real developers, even nominated for the Stalin Prize, but because of the greed of the accountant of the People's Commissariat, they did not receive it .. . "

[abc_alex]

Since 1932, at the plant, under the leadership of the chief of diesel cladding, Konstantin Chelpan, the development of the 400-strong tank diesel engine BD-2 (high-speed diesel), the future B2, was carried out. Chelpan has repeatedly testified that a qualified diesel specialist Firsov made a great contribution to the creation of this engine. The military and Stalin personally closely monitored the progress of diesel work. The first sample of the DB-2 was demonstrated to the country's leadership in 1934. For this development, the plant, director Bondarenko and Chelpan were awarded the orders of Lenin.

Immediately it is necessary to clarify and correct the error. BD-2 was not the future B-2. The future B-2 was the Charomsky aircraft engine, developed in Moscow. BD-2 really never really worked.

1935 on the desk of the chief designer lay elaborated sketches of a fundamentally new tank: protivosnaryadny booking with large angles of inclination, long-barrel 76,2-mm gun, diesel engine V-2

In 1935, the V-2 diesel engine could not even be in the sketch. The sketch could have a maximum of BD-2A.
And B-2 as it was, could appear no earlier than 1938 after a failure in the tests of the BD-2 and a change in the composition of the designers.

Who was he before? Koshkin was a party functionary and established himself as a good organizer. He was personally acquainted with Ordzhonikidze and Kirov. Two years before his appointment to Kharkov, he graduated from the Leningrad Polytechnic Institute and then worked as a designer in the tank design bureau of the Leningrad Plant named after Kirov. On this his experience in the development of tanks ended.

Koshkin did not just work at factory number 185. He was the deputy of Ginzburg. He was directly involved in the development of the T-29 tank and the prototype T-111 (T-46-5?).

And if there were experts in tank construction in the USSR of the 30s, then this is Ginzburg. His KB worked with people who had experience working on the TG, T-26, BT and T-28.
So Koshkin was far from a party functionary. Rather, not only a functionary. In any case, he received the Red Star not on the party line.

In October 1937, a TTT was issued for a new wheeled-tracked tank with three pairs of driving wheels, a frontal armor thickness of 25 mm, a 45 mm or 76,2 mm cannon and a diesel engine.
The development of the new tank was based on the concept of Firsov

Is this somehow documented? Or is this just an assumption by the author of the article?

Further it is not entirely clear how Koshkin in those conditions creates a KB-24 and continues work on a new tank.

Initiative of volunteers. He had the authority to do so. Moreover, we were talking about work on the BT-20 (A-20), a wheeled-tracked one.

Koshkin continued to fight for the tracked version of the tank, and in September 1938 the plant was tasked with developing two versions of the tank: the wheel-tracked A20 and the tracked A-20G (A32).

No. He does not receive tasks for development. He gets разрешение to develop two machines in parallel. The assignment from him and the plant was only on a wheeled-tracked vehicle.

I do not want to challenge the position of the authors. Perhaps Koshkin had drawings left over from Firsov. But this is not proven. In any case, the logic of the actions of Koshkin himself is completely understandable and it does not begin with the works of Firsov, but with the work with Ginzburg.
By the way, Ginzburg as an expert took a very active part in the fate of the future T-34, directly recommending it as a medium tank with anti-ballistic armor.

[Jager]

Totally agree.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: abc_alex

The future B-2 was aircraft engine Charomsky, developed in Moscow.

This is also a misconception: in parallel, several engines were developed, both for aircraft and for armored vehicles, and the B-2 was originally planned for armored vehicles, but in its design there are solutions that were applied both there and there. For example, a cylinder block made of silumin (an alloy of aluminum with silicon).

[Jager]

The article is very superficial and not accurate.
In general, why are the T-34s so praised and completely forgotten by the same BT, HF and IS?

[boris epstein]

The fact that BT was outdated by 1939 was shown by events in Spain, on Khalkhin Gol and in Finland. There was a quick-firing small-caliber (37 mm) anti-tank artillery. Speed ​​no longer saved. Moreover, the principle of a wheel-caterpillar tank was outdated. Power transmission to the track rollers stole a lot of weight, within the framework of this design it was impossible to strengthen either armor or weapons. HF ... Yes, the reservation was powerful. But in armament with the L-10 or L-11 gun, it was much inferior to the T-34 with the F-32 or F-34 gun of the same caliber-76 mm. And the weight, the gearbox were not brilliant. It was not in vain that at the end of 1941 they switched to the KV-1C model, they began to install the F-34 gun on it, and from the end of 1942, the 85 mm on the KV-85 model. The IS-1 with an 85 mm gun appeared later, was released in a small series, and in 1943 the IS-2 with a 122 mm gun was launched. They began to enter the troops in 1944. But in the same 1944, T-34-85 began to enter the troops.

[Jager]

L-10/11 was put on the T-34, and these machines were quite few.
But for Pz.III, the CT-28 was quite enough. And Pz. IV with a short KwK 37 somehow did not complain about problems with the BT / T-26.

[aglet]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

The British did not accept it, but they exported it to us, Poles and other countries with pleasure

the British simply sold licenses for vickers 6t, and produced tanks already on the ground, taking into account the specifics of countries. because t26 and 7tr only look a little similar

[aglet]

Quote: svp67

I do not agree here. Vickers - 6 tons, was very good, at that time, according to many indicators

although the Angles didn’t accept him, was he not very good?

[IL-64]

C'mon)))) that is, the repression, after all, were there?))) It is necessary)))

[Lekz]

What I drew attention to. In October 1937, TTT was issued to a tank with a frontal armor thickness of 25 mm. In March 1938 they demand increasing the thickness to 30, in September 1939 - to 45. Any engineer understands that we are talking about three different tanks. What kind of patience should Stalin have to look at these clowns in ABU? Two years (on the eve of the war) are determined by the thickness of the armor! And they say there were no pests.

[beeper]

Dear Kharkov tank designer, associate of the Chief Designer of tanks A.A. Morozov, Yuri Apukhtin on the eve of the 75th anniversary of our Victory, to the best of his ability, highlighted the long-standing theme of the sole authorship of one of the most famous tools of the Victory T-34 medium tank, the project and the beginning of its serial production ....
As "stewed" in the atmosphere of the Morozov design bureau, he probably knows something about the allegedly not very warm responses of Alexander Alexandrovich about Mikhail Ilyich Koshkin and about the chill in relation to his widow, who lived with the Morozovs in the same house, in next door ??! Or is it just OBS and vile gossip ??!
And why would it, because as far as I know, Alexander Alexandrovich Morozov was fairly straightforward in expressing his sympathies and antipathies, as he had a developed sense of justice, despite the ranks and ranks of his counterparts ?!

It is clear that the concept of the T-34 tank did not crystallize out at once and not out of the blue, so many of the mentioned personalities contributed. But do not underestimate the role of Mikhail Ilyich Koshkin - he also paid with his life for promoting the first prototypes of the future T-34!
By the way, after all, the problems with the gearbox of the tanks of Kharkov designers were resolved only by the urgent creation (according to legend, personally by A.A. Morozov) and introduction "into the series", already in the Urals during the Great Patriotic War (in my opinion, only in 1943, I am too lazy three hours before getting to work to clarify who is interested, find and understand for yourself this most interesting epic with the improvement of the T-34-76 and T-34-85 designs in mass production), completely (of course, except for the first stage) synchronized five-speed gearbox ?!

Mikhail Ilyich Koshkin, as far as I know, was a fairly talented "technician", a designer-mechanical engineer, and not only an organizer and leader (in the past, an experienced pastry chef, a "party thousand" and a participant in the suppression of the Kronstadt rebellion)!
Design credo of Mikhail Ilyich Koshkin:

"To work not in pursuit, but to overtake. In the design, use not an analogue, but a tendency. To create a tank that would be promising and would not require significant changes.".

So he was able to think in design concepts, and with his whole life he showed that he is able to solve the most difficult tasks and take responsibility, as befits a Real Chief Designer!

And the T-34, which won unfading military glory on the battlefields of the Great Patriotic War and World War II, and then in numerous wars and conflicts around the world up to the present day, is a huge merit of the entire design and technological team of Uralmash, where the head design bureau was based with the Chief Designer of the milestone Soviet tanks T-34-85, T-44, T-54, T-64 (the prototype of the T-74, which was also a revolutionary "happy four", started by exploratory design, was not allowed to finish, alas! Yuri Apukhtin, like no one else is aware of those events!) Alexander Alexandrovich Morozov!

But, probably, I already ran ahead and the Dear Author will please us, my grateful readers, with an insider on this topic (although, in principle, Yuri Apukhtin wrote a book about this a long time ago and it was available on the Web, as well as edited diaries A .A. Morozova) ?!

[beeper]

And, I forgot to say, as a topic for an interesting future article (and the dissertation too ) -I donate: To consider the causes of occurrence, existence and natural death, by the end of the 1930s, the concept of a wheeled-tracked tank precisely in function of the path resource of tank tracks, largely (like the construction of skyscrapers) due to successes in the creation of manganese steels!
Who in this matter gets inflated and gets a taste, that is, also the operational-tactical aspect of the "wheeled-tracked concept".
The mutual influence of the development of armored vehicles and the development of the art of "leadership of tank troops" in different countries and theaters is also a very interesting and extensive topic.
Be of good cheer!

[About 2]

Good article, thanks to the author!

[123456789]

The repressions affected not only Firsov, who was soon shot, but many of the managers and engineers of the plant and design bureau. In 1937, a commission was sent to the plant from Moscow to find out the reasons for the low quality of the BD-2 engines, which revealed flaws in the design of the engine and non-compliance with its production technology.

According to the results of the commission's work, the engine was finalized, making up to two thousand changes to it, but organizational conclusions were made. Chelpan was removed from work and in December 1937 was arrested along with the designers: diesel engineers Trashutin, Aptekman, Levitan and Gurtov, everyone except Trashutin was shot for "wrecking", the latter was released in 1939. The chief engineer of the Lyashch plant, the chief metallurgist Metantsev and many other engineers and military representatives are being arrested. In May 1938, the director of the Bondarenko plant was arrested and soon shot.

According to Vasiliev, the repression caused a real phobia in KB-190.

The wave of arrests that swept from November-December 1937 at the plant disorganized the work on the new tank, Dick was accused of disrupting the work, who was arrested in April 1938 and sentenced to ten years, this ended his career.

From the bible. The Gospel of Luke (chap. 12, v. 48) says: “... And from everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom much has been entrusted, they will be more exacted from that. ”

[Cowbra]

What really is Sean Connery ?!

[ser56]

Thank you - informative article!
The attitude of SV towards engineers is striking - such talents as Firsov destroyed ....
By the way, the biography has a lot in common with Polikarpov - except death ....
"The names of Firsov and Koshkin as the chief designers of the T-34 can stand side by side with dignity."
reasonable conclusion ....
"Already at the end of 1935, on the chief designer's desk there were elaborated sketches of a fundamentally new tank: anti-cannon armor with large tilt angles, a long-barreled 76,2-mm gun, a V-2 diesel engine, weight up to 30 tons ..."
means the beginning. Does MiTV Pavlov have nothing to do with it? Another legend?

[Kostadinov]

1. We could not tolerate that the political commissar did what the "repression specialists" could not do, and now they found a document that some kind of "concept" about a tank that resembled something was on paper. And why was this "concept" of Firsov not implemented in metal? What prevented the repressed from Tukhachevsky to Firsov? Until 1937, they all decided what to produce, how much, when, and did everything as they wanted. But the weapons with which they won the war appeared in metal, for some reason, only when they were no longer beaten or they did not decide anything.
2. I expect the appearance of a "document" that the concept of the T-34 was developed in tsarist Russia, and if the revolution did not beat the T-34 went into series in 1918.

[abc_alex]

Quote: Kostadinov

They could not tolerate that the political commissar did what the "repression of specialists" could not

Read my post above. Koshkin was not a "commissar". He was a professional designer, talented enough to receive the Order of the Red Star for his work at a tank plant in Leningrad. And he had experience in leading work. In Koshkin, design and administrative abilities, party authority and good connections at the very "top" were successfully combined.

Quote: Kostadinov

And why was this "concept" of Firsov not implemented in metal?

The concept of a tank with anti-cannon armor won the minds of tankers only after the war in Spain. Then they came face to face with the German infantry, armed with a 37-mm anti-tank "mallet". And it became clear that the bulletproof armor of Soviet tanks was no longer relevant. a penny cannon knocked out expensive tanks with a crew with one shot.
Prior to this, the idea of ​​booking a tank from guns did not occur to the military. In fact, it was before this revolution in the minds of 1937-1938 that there was no Soviet tank school, concepts and designs from Europe were copied.

Quote: Kostadinov

I expect the appearance of a "document" that the concept of the T-34 was developed in tsarist Russia, and if the revolution did not beat the T-34 went into series in 1918.

I do not exclude such an opportunity :) :) :)

[Kostadinov]

Read my post above. Koshkin was not a "commissar". He was a professional designer, talented enough to receive the Order of the Red Star for his work at a tank plant in Leningrad.

And who denies that Koshkin has become a professional designer. But before this he beat him with a commissioner. And the commissar, according to modern mitology, must beat a bad, incapable person. Here the repression is always smart and talented. That is why they found a paper that Koshkin had stolen the "concept" from the repressed Firsov.

"Firsov laid down the primary technical appearance of the future T-34 and its main technical characteristics. Vasiliev recalled: Already at the end of 1935, the chief designer's desk had elaborated sketches of a fundamentally new tank: anti-cannon armor with large tilt angles, a long-barreled 76,2-mm cannon , diesel engine V-2, weight up to 30 tons ... "

Already at the end of 1935, "elaborated sketches of a fundamentally new tank" were being hit. The genius Firsov will be the chief designer for another year, his superiors are also repression, led by the repression of the genius Tukhachevsky. But instead of this fundamentally new tank, only the BT-7 appears in the metal with such defects that it is called "sabotage".
In addition, it is very interesting how they got the V-1935 diesel in 2 if it was used on a stand at the end of 1937, and was mass-produced since 1939? What kind of anti-shell armor hit for example a tank turret - 40, 60, 100 mm, and which hit a 76,2 mm long-barreled tank gun?

[Dock47]

Another "historian" is a fighter against a bloody scoop. How are you pulled up! Where did the firewood come from? And everything seems to be moderate and Koshkin made his contribution, but prolonged the shit. And about the cleansing of the bloody gebny and about the scum. Try it, wash it off! You bastards are sick of you already. Trash our history tirelessly.

[Nikolay Krylikov]

I think that the author, as a former deputy chief designer of the Kharkov Design Bureau, is well versed in the topic covered in the article.