Antique ceramics and weapons

Antique ceramics and weapons
Very often, the painting depicted the heroes of the Trojan War. Here, for example, Menelaus, dressed in armor made of scales and with a large round shield-hoplon (Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York)


And the vessel that the potter made of clay ...
Book of the Prophet Jeremiah 18: 4)


Ancient civilization. In our cycle of acquaintance with ancient culture, three materials have already appeared: “Croatian Apoxyomen from under the water. Ancient civilization. Part 2 ", “Homer's poems as a historical source. Ancient civilization. Part 1 " и “Gold for war, the fourth wonder of the world and Ephesus marble”. Today we again turn to the topic of ancient culture, but let's talk about completely prosaic things, namely ... dishes.

For example, ancient Greek ceramic vessels came to us: amphoras, kiliks, kiafs ... On some figures are black, and the background is red. On others, the opposite is true! And they have a secret, which is that they do not fade, that is, the painting on them is so resistant that it is not afraid of millennia. How did the ancient masters achieve this? Well, and of course we are also interested in the drawings themselves. The themes of the mural are very different: from mythical scenes to the everyday life of the neighboring blacksmith. And, of course, many ceramic pieces of the ancient Greeks depict fighting warriors. Well, finds of artifacts (swords, armor, helmets) only confirm that those who painted all this saw it all with their own eyes. So ancient Greek ceramics is also an encyclopedia of weapons of the ancient Greeks!


Stamnos of the VI century BC. On it we observe a variety of crests on the helmet of Greek warriors and an equally diverse painting of their shields, including the notorious image of a swastika. In fact, we have before us a ready-made set of figures of soldiers and packaging ready for them, or rather, an image on this packaging, which proves that you did not come up with anything

Historical detective


Ancient ceramics is nothing but historical detective: we ask "witnesses", that is, broken shards or whole vessels, and they are silent or ... answer. But, fortunately, the ceramic vessels of the ancient Greeks are so informative that we learn a lot of interesting things from them, simply by carefully examining them. However, for starters, before we do this, let's find out the most important thing: from what and how the Greeks made their dishes, namely: bowls, goblets, dishes, their famous amforms, etc.


But this find is very interesting, although there is no warrior on it. Before us is a cilic from the archaeological museum in Cerveteri. It is an ancient city in central Italy, in the Lazio region. In ancient times, it was a city-state of the Etruscans and was called Caisra, then Ceres, or Ceres. He was a member of the Etruscan Union. Cerveteri Necropolises are known for their rich burials and are included in the UNESCO World Heritage List. As you can see, already then there were "substitutes for men", which the soldiers left for their wives, leaving for a long time on campaigns. Only the material was clearly not silicone

Clay is the head of everything!


So from what? Most of all, clay (although dishes were also made of metals: bronze, silver or gold; and later - even glass). Clay in Greece was everywhere, and everywhere it was a little different - from light red, almost yellow, to dark brown. Very good quality clay was mined in Attica, near Athens. In Greek, clay is keramos, and it is easy to guess that clay products were called (and are still called) ceramics, and the craftsmen who made them and make them are called ceramists. Even the quarter in Athens, where they worked, was called Keramik.

However, this material, that is, clay, needed preparation. It was just so easy to dig up clay in a pit, stretch it and sculpt pots! First of all, it was soaked in larger tanks, and even small stone pools. In this case, all sorts of light impurities floated and were removed. Then the clay was dried to remove excess water.

Who could spin a potter's wheel?


After this, clay was collected, dried again, and using a potter’s wheel, which could be both stone and wooden, this or that vessel was made. Since the circle was heavy, he was turned by a slave or apprentice, and the master himself paid attention exclusively to the creative process. Only later came up with a device in order to twist his feet. And labor productivity immediately increased dramatically. If the vessel consisted of several parts, then they were made separately and connected until they were dry. They tried to make the surface of the vessel smooth, for which they wiped it with a damp cloth or sea sponge, and the dried surface was again polished by rubbing with pieces of bone, stone or wood. An amphora or vase turned out to be more beautiful if the potter made the color of the clay itself more vivid. For example, he covered the surface with red ocher diluted in water, and it was absorbed into the clay. Then the vessels were dried in the shade so that they would not crack under the direct rays of the sun from uneven heating. Drafts were avoided for the same reason. So the workshop of the Greek potter was supposed to be quite spacious ... "home ownership."


Classic black-figure amphora with two fighting warriors (Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York)

The birth of one vessel is the work of many hands!


Now it was possible to proceed directly to the painting of the finished vessel itself. But it was no longer the potter who was engaged in this, but the vase painter to whom he transferred his work. He made a sketch of the future drawing with a pointed wand, a lead pencil on the still completely dry surface of the vessel, so that it still had not to be dried. That is, the state of the vessels was required to be monitored continuously, and as some vessels dried and painted, immediately do others so that the drying and painting process was coordinated. The outline of the figures was outlined with a thin brush, and a compass was used to draw a round shield to the warrior.


The simplest red clay jug from the Archaeological Museum in Larnaca, Cyprus

Black and red, red and black ...


Interestingly, most of the Greek vessels were painted with just two colors - red and black, although white and pink were also used. Moreover, the red paint was the same red clay, but black, although this one seems surprising, was also red clay, but only it was a little different in quality. And she blackened only during firing in the oven. So, the paint, which in reality was only clay with only a slightly darker shade, compared to the one from which the vessel itself was made, was applied by the artist, and this was another of his important skills - to distinguish insignificant shades in the color of clay well, it became only after firing either black or red. Hence the name of the ceramics: black-figured and red-figured. The first means that the figures on the vase are painted over with “black paint,” the second means that the space around the figures is covered with black paint, and they themselves are left in the color of red clay. The vase painter either scratched out small details with a special sharp tool, or painted with a thin brush. In this case, purple, white, gray, pink and some other colors were used.


A jug for grain and ... was it worth it to paint beautifully? (Archaeological Museum in Larnaca, Cyprus)

Accordingly, they were also obtained by mixing white, red and black clay. The masters knew that if you make black paint a little more liquid, then when fired, you can get a rich brownish tint, well transmitting the color of the hair. Well, the dried painting was polished again, and the work was completed by writing inscriptions, for example, the names of the characters depicted.


Ancient household ceramics was the most diverse. For example, Etruscan askos - a vessel for storing oils and refueling oil lamps (Archaeological and Art Museum of Maremma, the city of Grosseto, Italy)

The biggest secret is in the oven!


Now, almost the most important thing remained - firing. To do this, the workshop had a special oven, where painted dishes were placed, and where free access for air was open, and the temperature gradually increased to 800 °. At the same time, all products that were in the furnace turned red. But then the furnace was closed so that the air no longer got into it, wet firewood or wet straw was added to the fuel, and the temperature was raised to 950 °. Now, on the contrary, the dishes blackened, but not entirely, but only in those places that were painted with “black paint”. Now it was necessary to preserve this color, for which more firewood was put into the stove, the former temperature was maintained for some time, and then it was opened for air access. The temperature was dropping a little. But if the master accidentally shifted firewood, and the temperature in the furnace rose to 1050 °, then the black color again turned red. These are the most complicated chemical processes that occurred at that time with iron oxide contained in clay when it reacted with carbon dioxide released during the burning of raw firewood. And the question is: how did the ancient Greek potters determine the right temperature? Most likely by eye, by the shade of the flame. In any case, one thing is clear: they were very high-class professionals and had vast experience. Well, they also relied on the help of the gods, for example, the goddess Athena, the patroness of crafts. Although we know one thing for sure: they needed ... a lot of firewood! Just really!


And here, on the contrary, we see a red-figure vessel, where there are riders, and infantrymen, and chariots ... Take it, Angus McBride or Giuseppe Rava, and ... draw your warriors on it

Whose skill was superior?


Naturally, the masters were proud of their products, and therefore they were signed. True, considering amazing black and red figure vases, we admire the talent of vase painters more often than we remember how it was not easy to fashion and burn them. Apparently, anticipating this, it was the potters who, as a rule (namely, they were the owners of the workshops), left their names on the items more often, although many of them were not preserved. They didn’t survive because they reached us ... in tiny fragments.


Etruscan Amphora, Louvre Museum. Here, too, some obscenities we see. Obviously, that was their life. Rich in all kinds of sexual fantasies ...

Nothing lasts forever, much less pottery, which at times, dedicating to the gods, was specially broken. The vase could be preserved as a whole, if only it was honored to accompany a person to the afterlife and if the grave was not robbed by ancient or later treasure hunters. So, in the XIX century. in the tombs of one of the most ancient peoples of Italy - the Etruscans, who believed in the afterlife and sought to equip it in the best and most pleasant way, they found a huge number of whole painted vases brought back in the VI-V centuries. BC e. from Greece. And although most of them were made in Attica, in Athens, they are still in the XIX century. called "Etruscan" because most of them were found in Etruscan tombs.


Another image of an antique warrior with a painted shield at the bottom of a kilik. ("Old Museum" - Art Museum in Berlin on Museum Island)

By the way, Etruscan ceramics itself is quite different from Greek, so they can not be confused. The Greek is more complete, "perfect", so to speak, but the Etruscan vessels are painted as if their creators were in a hurry. In addition, many vessels are completely black, and the drawings on them are scratched!


Cracked but glued red-figure kilik with the image of a runner at the Olympic Games. There was a contest - running in armor, which was a shield and helmet. Typical Attic red-figure ceramics, 480-470 BC. (Archaeological and Art Museum of Maremma, city of Grosseto, Italy)
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  1. Catfish 1 March 2020 06: 38 New
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    Friends, all good morning and good day! hi
    How many in due time we dragged antique ceramics from the Quarantine and Streletskaya bays of Sevastopol. The equipment was brought with them, and air was struck at the TCB of the Black Sea Fleet in the same Quarantine. We went to Streletskaya on the WFD under the flag of the FMF with a civilian crew, moored to the fuel and lubricant pier and down the ramp. There was a small settlement that went into the water, and since the civil bay was closed, there was plenty of amphora there, and even after every storm it was washed out of the silt. Shells and aerial bombs were washed out, however, too, but rarely.
    Thanks to Vyacheslav Olegovich. smile
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 1 March 2020 07: 05 New
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      Hello Konstantin, and have a nice day! On ceramics, once accidentally came to a symposium of archaeologists specializing in logging culture. Accustomed to historical disputes, I was shocked by the fact that adult uncles and aunts were cut to death not for life because of the way of formation of stone dumping of burials !!!
      Vyacheslav Olegovich respect and respect for his article!
    2. Caretaker 1 March 2020 10: 39 New
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      Quote: Sea Cat
      How many in due time we dragged antique ceramics from the Quarantine and Streletskaya bays ...

      And where are these amphoras now?
      Would you know what archaeologists say about "black diggers", ears "wither".
      I hope you are not a black treasure hunter?
      1. Catfish 1 March 2020 11: 25 New
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        Where do you think? And the military sailors would pound the air into tanks and, all the more, take "black diggers" on board their ship. "Ancient Khersones", the Sevastopol Museum-Reserve, we lived on its territory, and its employees first agreed about us with the sailors at the Navy Diving Training Station in Karantinka, and dragged their "iron" on their own hump, since it’s not far, less than a kilometer. But we have already contacted the WFD team ourselves. So all the pots, roof tiles, etc. went to the storerooms of the museum.
        But we were engaged in "black digging" on our own initiative on the Mannerheim line, but it was worse there, there was no place to blow air into the apparatus, so we brought a full trunk with us and breathed "once in a while". Yes, and we were not looking for archeology there. But this does not apply to the article.
        1. 3x3zsave 1 March 2020 11: 41 New
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          But this is very interesting!
          Where did you sink on the Mannerheim line and what did you find?
          1. Catfish 1 March 2020 12: 03 New
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            Hello Anton!
            Muolajärvi Lake, which is also Great, with an island in the middle. There is also a nearby place among marshes and rocks under the local name Pyatyozerka. Then it was still possible to drive a car along half-rotten bridges, as I can’t imagine there now. There is also a railway station on the railway to Vyborg called Leipesuo (like).
            Why did they find ... On the largest lake in Pyatiyozerka they found "Lake Toplitz", the second bottom of the bogeys and, of course, the descents stopped, there were no suicides. And I'll tell you about the rest when you arrive, at the buffet table. smile
            1. 3x3zsave 1 March 2020 12: 14 New
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              I’ll tell you about the rest when you arrive
              Well, I’ll not come alone, but with Nikolai, his lady, and my dog ​​...
              Attention, question!
              Take a tent?
              1. Catfish 1 March 2020 13: 26 New
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                "Lady with a dog"? smile
                Well, it's his business, but why bring firewood to the forest? As for the dog, it’s your responsibility, because I don’t answer for my cat, everything can be. And with the tent as you want, but we have where to live, a married couple in an old house, and you and you will have a rest in the summer pavilion with a dogevich. Just warn in advance, it will be necessary to put everything in order.
                1. 3x3zsave 1 March 2020 17: 17 New
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                  Why carry firewood to the forest?
                  Here I am, as a feminine unencumbered, and I will not be lucky!
                  And in general, this segregation on the basis of livestock brewed! Wherever you go: with fish, turtles, parrots, cats - you can, but with dogs - no way down !!! It’s necessary to try with dragons, judging by t / s “Game of Thrones”, they’re allowed everywhere with them laughing
                  1. Catfish 1 March 2020 22: 13 New
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                    Yeah ... they let the dragon go ... But don’t let go, it’s scary to think how such a “non-letting go” can end. laughing
                    1. 3x3zsave 1 March 2020 22: 21 New
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                      So I’m thinking how to adapt a gas cylinder with a reducer and a remote ignition system to a hang-glider dog.
                      1. Catfish 1 March 2020 22: 28 New
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                        This is due to the kind of dog, its own mouth with claws is enough, and no flamethrower is needed.
                      2. 3x3zsave 1 March 2020 22: 35 New
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                        Well, it’s clear that I don’t have a “Caucasian”, but I can’t contain an animal, potentially IQ, exceeding me ...
                      3. Catfish 1 March 2020 22: 53 New
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                        So what, what is not Caucasian. We had a Frenchman, Julien von Zollis und Hobbit, but simply Zhulik was also picked up on the street, or rather he got lost, the owners didn’t care about him, then they gave him the documents. The shot was the same, the peasants even had such a sign: if a Rogue purposefully cowards in some direction and does not get involved in any brawls, then at the end of the village either a wedding, or a funeral, or something else like that, in short , there you can eat for free. He lived with us for a year and started begging. Already ten years since he was gone. Sad ...
        2. Undecim 1 March 2020 13: 26 New
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          Muolajärvi Lake, which is also Great
          Confusing traces, Konstantin, people are sending to the Tver region.
          Muolanyarvi Lake on the Karelian Isthmus - Glubokoe.
          I was familiar with people who went to the "zone" to dig even when some of the site's regulars were not in the project.
          1. Catfish 1 March 2020 13: 35 New
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            That was forty years ago, and I wrote the names as I remember. But the station was still called that. And what kind of "zone" I have not heard of such a name in relation to these places, somehow it gives Chernobyl.
            1. Undecim 1 March 2020 13: 38 New
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              I was digging in the autumn forest in the Finnish DotA,
              Well, and swag put his tarpaulin in a bag.
              What burned - I burned, what exploded - exploded,
              I was brave and lucky, but I did not know happiness ...
              Fortified area Summa-Khotinen (Summakul).
              There were rumors that the Strugatsky were digging there too, after which they wrote "Picnic on the Sidelines". It’s a long time ago, there are no others, but those are far away.
              1. Catfish 1 March 2020 13: 58 New
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                Lovely! Honestly, I did not expect that you are always so super serious. smile
                In the pillboxes you don’t particularly dig in there, but you also need to get there, so we are more there on underwater affairs. True, there was something upstairs, but as for the bombing, this is not about our team. Fuses do not live long.
                1. Undecim 1 March 2020 14: 10 New
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                  But much more serious! In this song, on the motive "I am in the spring forest ..." there was such a verse:
                  Picked me up like an autumn leaf
                  Flying between the trunks, I stuck in the sand.
                  For a long time then a raven crowed over me
                  I was left without legs, and with one hand.

                  Humor, of course, is black, but all of life. It’s good that I had someone to explain what you can touch with your hands and what is not necessary.
                  1. Catfish 1 March 2020 14: 17 New
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                    Well, thank God we all have everything in place. And with his head in the sand, it has been in shell-shock since childhood, the trauma is such a birth. Such on any, not on a shell, so on the iron will be blown up, and it’s good if only for yourself. And it happens like this:
                    "The boy in the basement found a machine gun,
                    No one else lives in the village. " request
    3. Caretaker 1 March 2020 12: 08 New
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      Quote: Sea Cat
      Yes, and we were not looking for archeology there.

      They could find ceramics on the shore, it’s good they didn’t look for them. Although, who knows, maybe they ruined and did not even notice.
      1. Catfish 1 March 2020 13: 30 New
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        What are you, what the hell is ceramics on the fortification line after five years of war ?! Wow, "ruined and did not notice" - this is for you and our Finnish gunners, and not for me. Laughter and only ... request
        1. Caretaker 1 March 2020 14: 45 New
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          Quote: Sea Cat
          What are you, what the hell is ceramics on the fortification line after five years of war ?!

          Directly along the fortified areas (probably by “Mannerheim Line” you mean all Finnish fortifications), of course not, during the construction everything was plowed. A little aside - anything happens, archaeologists constantly find something.
          1. Catfish 1 March 2020 14: 58 New
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            I didn’t climb “a little to the side”, we had a specific goal - the “echo” of the last war, and the ancient burial sites and fortifications are the work of archaeologists, or tomb robbers.
  • Xnumx vis 4 March 2020 15: 17 New
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    The sea still carries fragments of amphora and other ceramics to the coast of Sevastopol .. On the shore near the Konstantinovsky batteries closer to the Tolstoy cape found pieces of amphora and other fragments of ancient Greek ceramics ..
  • tlauicol 1 March 2020 06: 52 New
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    in the first photo the figure is flat, and the shield is already depicted with a hint of volume and perspective.
    and this is a dump of broken dishes dr. Rome
    1. Caretaker 1 March 2020 10: 54 New
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      In Pskov, near the Mirozhsky monastery, the coast was strewn with broken clay ceramics instead of sand and pebbles.
      Not such a mountain, of course, but also impressive. What I don’t know at the moment, because An extensive restoration / reconstruction was carried out in the monastery and around.
  • Korsar4 1 March 2020 06: 55 New
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    Thank. The simplicity of the combination of colors, and through the centuries has passed, and does not cease to fascinate.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 1 March 2020 07: 09 New
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      Good morning! Simplicity is not simplicity, but hands must be from the right place to draw! But in fact these are household items - consumer goods.
      For what value for us descendants in order to know the past!
      1. 3x3zsave 1 March 2020 07: 31 New
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        But in fact these are household items - consumer goods.
        For what value for us descendants in order to know the past!

        Jerome and the "Great Sculptors of Porcelain Dogs" laughing
        1. Korsar4 1 March 2020 07: 47 New
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          Here, probably, what you like is the criterion. Woodwood porcelain, by the way, also falls into this category.

          So, in comparison with our plastic age, the porcelain of Jerome’s time is beautiful.

          "Mockers are good prophets" (c).
          1. 3x3zsave 1 March 2020 10: 45 New
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            Truly so! There, not only about the "dogs", half the chapter is devoted to this topic.
          2. 3x3zsave 1 March 2020 11: 31 New
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            And further...
            Jerome should be re-read regularly, for people do not change, only circumstances change.
            1. Korsar4 1 March 2020 11: 48 New
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              I’ll probably do it. You re-read each time from a slightly different angle.
              1. 3x3zsave 1 March 2020 11: 56 New
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                Yes!
                Meeting the characters every day, you involuntarily imbued with an understanding of the depth of the author’s intellect.
                1. Korsar4 1 March 2020 12: 04 New
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                  It is interesting to draw analogies. Your yesterday’s commentary on the dialogue between Vyacheslav Olegovich and Konstantin reminded you of the passage to the door of Manilov and Chichikov.

                  Yesterday I resisted the cue. But today it’s not.
                  Though the Forgiveness Resurrection.

                  Ask me everyone who inserted the studs.
                  1. 3x3zsave 1 March 2020 12: 30 New
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                    Sergei! Not everyone can understand and appreciate your "hairpins". On the strength, a half dozen people on this forum. And all these people are able to appreciate the intelligence and sense of humor of your comments.
                    And by this, nefig sob over spilled milk!
                    1. Korsar4 1 March 2020 13: 46 New
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                      And not gonna cry.

                      On the contrary, I am glad that communication allows you to recall from memory both Gogol and Jerome and other people and characters from different countries and times.
  • Korsar4 1 March 2020 07: 18 New
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    This is amazing. And when craft skills are shown, and especially manifestations of mastery.
  • fk7777777 1 March 2020 07: 35 New
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    I was at an excavation in Cologne, where at one time a buried city was dug up right in the center of the city, there he was 2000 years ago, somewhere, it was a Roman campaign, it was interesting, but what struck me most was that the tile was preserved, the ordinary ceramic masonry from the tile on the wall, seriously, what kind of technology, if so many years?
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 1 March 2020 07: 56 New
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      Ceramics is one of the oldest high-tech products of human hands!
      Many cultures have been called archaeologists of "faience ceramics", "cord ceramics"!
      Itself was only a few times in the ashes. There is always glass and ceramics!
      Regards, Vlad!
      1. kalibr 1 March 2020 08: 13 New
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        I was at the excavations of Tanais, Gorgippia in Anapa, and Tmutarakani in Taman - this is where the fragments of dishes are just ... a bunch.
      2. 3x3zsave 1 March 2020 10: 51 New
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        Itself was only a few times in the ashes. There is always glass and ceramics!
        And an exploded propane tank ...
        1. Pane Kohanku 2 March 2020 09: 46 New
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          But this find is very interesting, although there is no warrior on it. Before us is a cilic from the archaeological museum in Cerveteri. It is an ancient city in central Italy, in the Lazio region. In ancient times, it was a city-state of the Etruscans and was called Caisra, then Ceres, or Ceres. He was a member of the Etruscan Union. ............. As you can see, already then there were "substitutes for men", which the soldiers left for their wives, leaving for a long time on campaigns. Only the material was clearly not silicone

          I’m thinking .... in vain Vyacheslav Olegovich inserted this photo. what No, you just think what a scope for fans to rewrite history! yes Considering that some forum participants prove that the Etruscans are Russians, the following slogan could be: "Russia - Homeland of Elephants" "Russians are the first producers of goods for love" fellow drinks
    2. kalibr 1 March 2020 08: 22 New
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      I was in Larnek, Cyprus, where a piece of mosaic from a Roman villa was placed right in the museum in the park and I saw exactly the same mosaic in Croatia and Spain. And everything was preserved ... Although not all, of course. Why break? A stone - it is a stone.
      1. Deniska999 1 March 2020 09: 24 New
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        I wonder how supporters of "Tartaria from ocean to ocean" interpret these findings? lol
        1. kalibr 1 March 2020 09: 26 New
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          And let's ask them? Today is Sunday, suddenly appear?
          1. tlauicol 1 March 2020 09: 45 New
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            Quote: kalibr
            And let's ask them? Today is Sunday, suddenly appear?

            worse today is spring!
            down below, a person already had a relapse!
            1. kalibr 1 March 2020 10: 10 New
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              Alas, conspiracy theory lives and wins. At the beginning of 2000, he counted 20 conspiracy theories, now there are over 100 ... The conspiracy of historians, the conspiracy of watchmakers, the conspiracy of pharmacists ... He also read that 25% of Russian citizens need urgent psychiatric help, but they don’t know about it. And not urgent? But just the help of a psychologist? Probably 80% is required ... people draw a distorted picture of the world for themselves ...
              1. mr.ZinGer 1 March 2020 13: 47 New
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                People are divided into two categories:
                1. Patients
                2. Not examined
            2. 3x3zsave 1 March 2020 10: 56 New
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              worse today is spring!
              Someone like! In St. Petersburg - winter. Today, for the first time in the cold season, I saw a man with skis. laughing
              1. kalibr 1 March 2020 13: 52 New
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                And I have spring, the sun! A daughter and her son-in-law are filling containers in the country with the last snow ...
              2. bubalik 1 March 2020 16: 35 New
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                the first time in the cold season I saw a man with skis
                ,,, optimists recourse
                1. Phil77 1 March 2020 18: 11 New
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                  That * winter * in Moscow was about the same.
                  1. Pane Kohanku 2 March 2020 10: 43 New
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                    That * winter * in Moscow was about the same.

                    Yeah, but on Friday night for the fourth time it snowed for the winter, and a bunch of dunduks were driving around. I only saw one accident - in front of me the trio stopped with a train. But Anton was less fortunate - he said that everything was much cooler and juicier on the Neva embankment. no
          2. 3x3zsave 1 March 2020 11: 04 New
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            Yes, Vyacheslav Olegovich ... There is a lack of sharp emotions in your life. There are two options: 1. back to the department, 2. publish the second part of the story about the adventures of Ilyich in Shushensky.
            1. kalibr 1 March 2020 13: 22 New
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              Quote: 3x3zsave
              There are two options: 1. back to the department,

              They won’t take it - no students, no hours. And I won’t go myself - I’m tired of throwing beads ... About Ilyich in Shushenskoye it would be necessary - the material lies, but ... there is no mood yet. Imagine: a positive response came from the Sakhalin Museum, that is, the Ainu will again come, an answer from the United States from one firm came, which makes arches. Very good and capacious - OK! I’m sitting here, writing to you about Glazunov and his Dmitry Donskoy. Actually, I already wrote ... Then again the story of Sakamoto Ryoma will go, I really want Japanese color and exotic ...
              1. Pane Kohanku 2 March 2020 09: 52 New
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                Imagine: a positive answer came from the Sakhalin Museum, that is, the Ainu will go again

                Was on Saturday at the Hermitage. It turns out that the peoples of Russia were captured in the 18th century .. in a huge porcelain set! (and Pauli’s famous album was created only in the 19th century!) Among them is the “smoker” figure - that is, clearly Ainu. hi
                1. kalibr 2 March 2020 10: 48 New
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                  Some are lucky ...
                  1. Pane Kohanku 2 March 2020 11: 33 New
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                    Some are lucky ...

                    yes, now they started to drag me through exhibitions! request and given the fact that someone has an iPhone with a good camera, I can even not take a camera with me! wink solid pluses! yes
                    So, for example, from this set look Armenian (EMNIP), and Kabardian.

                    Sculptures from the series "Peoples of Russia". Porcelain, overglaze polychrome painting, gilding, silvering. 1780-1790s Model author J.-D. (Jacques-Dominic) Rachett. Cat. 100
                    State Russian Museum.
                  2. 3x3zsave 2 March 2020 14: 18 New
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                    "People live! They go to theaters, to libraries ..." (C) crying laughing
                2. 3x3zsave 2 March 2020 14: 19 New
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                  Why didn’t they call me ???
                  1. Pane Kohanku 2 March 2020 15: 30 New
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                    Why didn’t they call me ???

                    oh you damn it .... recourse I'll call you to another museum! drinks
                    Here's a comforting spy cat! drinks
    3. Simargl 1 March 2020 10: 47 New
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      Quote: fk7777777
      Was at a dig in Cologne
      Go to the Gorgipiya Museum. Modern jewelry often loses in quality.
      1. kalibr 1 March 2020 12: 29 New
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        By the way, they made a very modern and beautifully designed museum there! And a very cozy archaeological museum in Taman!
  • fk7777777 1 March 2020 07: 56 New
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    Firstly, it’s all very much reminiscent of normal technological production, at what the machine stock, then the temperatures, are worth it, which are slightly increased and you already have metal rolling. That is, the people who fought almost for a second billing were just idiots ?, seriously ?, there they could have gotten a masterpiece, but here, well, in general ... Bullshit, look at the Second World War, for 4 years you jumped up progress armaments, and here for thousands of years they eat raw mutton, lie, lie, it’s disgusting, the poor Egyptians are figurative with copper (that is, copper production was!) with a basalt chisel, which are many times stronger than steel ?, and most importantly, what they do is the thinnest 2 mm thick disk, similar to a sd disk, and perfectly polished. Well, how much more is this nonsense, what good fellows they are, with the help of a member you hollow out the relief in the rock, but we have everything and we’re just a herd, we can’t repeat a little bit of well, so take a copper chisel basalt and go ahead, chisel, just do not forget to make it yourself from ore, otherwise ... Ikea wasn’t there after all.
    1. kalibr 1 March 2020 08: 20 New
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      And how did stone axes be drilled with a piece of wood? But they drilled ... I don’t remember which museum, but I saw a wall about ten meters long and three high all hung with stone drilled axes ... There are tons of them. And no less than in the excavations near Samara, Saratov, near Penza ... They did everything at the factory and transported them to different places, and buried at different depths and with bones ... Why? And when? And some are more perfect than others, and lie higher. To consider where, what is buried at what depth and with what bones ... is inconceivable.
      1. Simargl 1 March 2020 10: 54 New
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        Quote: kalibr
        And how did stone axes be drilled with a piece of wood?
        Long.
        1 - Take a tablet, make a hole (for authenticity - you can use a stick).
        2 - Stick to the stone that you want to drill this plank.
        3 - Take sand and water, pour in, pour into the hole.
        4 - Drill a hole with a cylindrical stick. More precisely, with the help of a stick, scratch a hole in the stone with sand.

        Threat PMSM (IMHO) with a tubular bone at the end of the stick will be more effective.
        1. kalibr 1 March 2020 10: 56 New
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          And this is exactly what is painted on the frescoes of other Egyptians!
          1. Simargl 1 March 2020 11: 00 New
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            Well there, nevertheless, copper tubes instead of bone and bare wood.
            Anunak sculpts a vase (at the end of a stick, a stone instead of bone and copper - deceived everyone):
        2. anjey 1 March 2020 14: 52 New
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          Old Abrasive laughingGreat patience and labor will grind everything.
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka 1 March 2020 08: 45 New
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      Quote: fk7777777
      Firstly, it’s all very much reminiscent of normal technological production, at what the machine stock, then the temperatures, are worth it, which are slightly increased and you already have metal rolling. That is, the people who fought almost for a second billing were just idiots ?, seriously ?, there they could have gotten a masterpiece, but here, well, in general ... Bullshit, look at the Second World War, for 4 years you jumped up progress armaments, and here for thousands of years they eat raw mutton, lie, lie, it’s disgusting, the poor Egyptians are figurative with copper (that is, copper production was!) with a basalt chisel, which are many times stronger than steel ?, and most importantly, what they do is the thinnest 2 mm thick disk, similar to a sd disk, and perfectly polished. Well, how much more is this nonsense, what good fellows they are, with the help of a member you hollow out the relief in the rock, but we have everything and we’re just a herd, we can’t repeat a little bit of well, so take a copper chisel basalt and go ahead, chisel, just do not forget to make it yourself from ore, otherwise ... Ikea wasn’t there after all.

      1. The kingdoms of Ancient Egypt existed in the Bronze Age, and this is a different calico, other technologies and other opportunities.
      2. Our common mistake is to simplify the situation stereotypically, especially in the ancient world! For example, the legal delights of the first Hellenic democracies are so complex and at the same time harmonious that they are not inferior to modern constitutions! Why do we think pottery should be wretched? Indeed, amphoras of the ancient Greeks, this is practically the only container with which the trade turnover of the Mediterranean was supported! In amphora they drove and stored everything that was rich and loose, from butter to millet! The pottery workshops of ancient Athens were quite large productions of up to 50 people (apprentices and slaves).
      3. Even today, some burst foie gras, others fried eggs!
      So the shepherds of Attica cost a handful of dates, three olives and a barley cake, and a kilometer away the archon, being at a symposium, could wind up a third goose with prunes.
      4. Ikea was not, however, like the Swedes, but there was free labor. So show-offs are more expensive than money, and these are all 8 wonders of the world! Starting from the pyramids! Although maybe their goal was much more pragmatic, such as the autobahns of Germany or the roads of Rome!
      1. kalibr 1 March 2020 09: 07 New
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        I completely agree with you, Vladislav. In the tomb of Pharaoh Joser, 3000 broken stone vessels and 300 intact were found. The question is, how were they drilled inside? For example, with a narrow throat and a wide body? And then in another place they found a drawing. Two masters drill such vessels and one says to the other: This is a beautiful vessel, and the other - Yes, truly. And in their hands they have some primitive drills. Consider fake 3000 broken vessels? And this drawing ... They are connected only by a theme, a different place and time. So people were able to do what we do not know how. Or ostracism in Greece ... pieces of broken pots. But it worked and how!
        1. Simargl 1 March 2020 11: 04 New
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          Quote: kalibr
          So people were able to do what we do not know how.
          Forty years ago, a punch was a fantastic tool. Concrete is no worse than it is now.
          How did carpets hang on the walls?
          1. Mihaylov 1 March 2020 20: 39 New
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            Oh yeah! it was a whole story.
            From the personal experience of hanging a cornice a year in 1988-1989, that is, almost 40 years ago. Task: 2 holes in concrete. The operation was carried out for 2 days. But first, it was necessary to get a drill, because at that time there were few who had it, and concrete drill is not an option at all, it was a hand drill (it seems to have been called a turn).
            The first day. Since concrete does not drill well with a drill without a perforator, but periodically with the help of a hammer and an old drill, the hole had to be "hammered" and so for several hours into 2 holes. Then corks need to be cut out of wood; there were no ready-made plastic ones then. After plugging the traffic jams, it was necessary to distribute a little cement and cover everything around them, since in the process of drilling / chiselling, the hole was broken more than necessary.
            Second day. Now, screws had to be screwed into the wooden corks (naturally there were no screwdrivers), which were then of soft metal and with a single slot, which often had the property of “tearing off” at the slightest effort, and then it was necessary to unscrew the screw with pliers. And also: it was better to screw a preliminary hole in a wooden cork before tightening the screw, so that, God forbid, it would not crack when it was tightened, then it had to be knocked out of the hole and started over.
            It seems to have forgotten nothing. Now, with the help of a puncher and a screwdriver, the whole same procedure takes me 3-5 minutes, taking into account the folding / folding of the tools.
            I apologize for the talkativeness: I remembered!
            1. Simargl 2 March 2020 00: 50 New
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              Quote: Mihaylov
              I apologize for the talkativeness: I remembered!
              Oh yeah!!! Nostalgia for the old, "tube" times ...
              There was an option - an assembly gun. But the quality of the walls was so different ... there was an option - in one place the D-4 barely cuts the wall, the dowel goes off to the side, and in the other it practically takes off (wall 12 cm), the piston sticks to the aluminum cuff ...
              If with a drill or rotary ring - beat the hole with the same dowel.
              Now - yes: rotate / collapse the rotary hammer longer. And with the advent of shuriks, I already begin to forget where the drill lies.
              Oh, and I remember, often in the production of the drill the "left" were, because they did not reverse the drill.
            2. kalibr 2 March 2020 16: 02 New
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              And how was the same thing done in 1975, in those concrete houses? Or even earlier ... Also, only the concrete was harder ...
              1. Mihaylov 2 March 2020 17: 05 New
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                Quote: kalibr
                only the concrete was harder ...

                Perhaps we should ask the builders, probably the standards of concrete have changed over the past 40 years.
                Roman concrete and modern concrete are, as they say, “two big differences”. Somehow there was such a science-pop film where they tried to simulate the situation as the planet would change if a person disappeared from it: it was approved there. that modern concrete will not collapse within 100 years.
                1. Simargl 3 March 2020 14: 25 New
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                  Quote: Mihaylov
                  it was approved there. that modern concrete will not collapse within 100 years.
                  In a dry climate and after 1000 it will be almost as new if it is dusted with sand.
                  About 100 years - nonsense, although the fittings in it rust, nevertheless. A guarantee for 70 years, for example.
      2. Korsar4 1 March 2020 09: 08 New
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        And without foie gras it is not bad.

        And for a change, it just reminds me that not all cats are Pancake week.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 1 March 2020 10: 07 New
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          You are the best!!!!!!!
          Quote: Korsar4
          And without foie gras it is not bad.

          And for a change, it just reminds me that not all cats are Pancake week.

          For a long time she did not laugh !!!!! good
          1. Phil77 1 March 2020 10: 35 New
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            Hello to the venerable public! And you, Vlad, personally! But forgive me, for ... Forgiveness Resurrection. hi
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 1 March 2020 10: 59 New
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              God will forgive!
              Sincerely, Vlad.
              And forgive me if that ...
              1. Phil77 1 March 2020 11: 13 New
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                Mutually. Mutually. Mutually! hi hi hi
              2. Phil77 1 March 2020 11: 17 New
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                Yes, Vlad. And you found the answer to your question on the mentioned site? Remember, you asked.
                1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 1 March 2020 13: 51 New
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                  Yes, now I'm looking for a piece of copper plate! I will master electrolysis! I will describe the results.
                  1. Phil77 1 March 2020 16: 52 New
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                    Vlad, are you looking for a copper plate of a certain thickness? Again, turn to His Majesty the Internet. And of course, SUCCESS !!!
                    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 1 March 2020 17: 39 New
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                      His Majesty rules my garage! Now, if I don’t find there, then I will search on the Internet!
              3. 3x3zsave 1 March 2020 11: 23 New
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                Well, forgive me, please, for the company! For being punk, yernik and miserable. Because my jokes are not always clear. For the fact that I drink more than the typewriter eats, but could write and publish. Because I am a dog lover ...
                PySy. I need to call my mother, ask for forgiveness for the fact that I am a bad son.
                1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 1 March 2020 13: 53 New
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                  Anton, you are nice to us just for the first half of the comment, and Mom, Mom must call!
    3. Trilobite Master 1 March 2020 21: 06 New
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      Quote: fk7777777
      First of all, it is very much reminiscent of normal technological production

      ... and hereinafter.
      And what, I’ll put you my minus for the collection. smile
      Colleagues, it seems, explained everything to you, so I have nothing to say, but I want to minus for the “new years” ... So what can you deny yourself little joys? I will only add that in order not to write nonsense, you need to learn, you cannot draw the right conclusions without basic knowledge without basic knowledge. request
  • Undecim 1 March 2020 12: 42 New
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    Greek clay - keramos
    In Greek, clay is piló. Keramos - pottery clay.
  • Undecim 1 March 2020 15: 06 New
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    However, this material, that is, clay, needed preparation. It was just so easy to dig up clay in a pit, stretch it and sculpt pots! First of all, it was soaked in larger tanks, and even small stone pools. In this case, all sorts of light impurities floated and were removed. Then the clay was dried to remove excess water.
    In such a preparation, which is called elutriation, it is used only when clay of optimal fat content cannot be extracted - this is a parameter that determines the degree of its plasticity under loads.
    At the beginning, the extracted clay went through drying and grinding. After that, the resulting mass was poured with water and soaked for some time in certain boxes made up of a stepped staircase. When the time came, these boxes with a mass of clay were washed under the pressure of pure water, which boiled and gradually flowed from one box to another, according to the principle of steps. Clay for pottery was divided into different types of fractions, each of them was used for something. The purest clay was in the lowest drawer. Water descended, and the sediment had to mature and thicken.
  • Trilobite Master 1 March 2020 21: 10 New
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    Vyacheslav Olegovich, thanks for the material, as always interesting and useful. Personally, from the baked clay, only shards were obtained immediately exclusively, without the stage when they are a useful product. smile And I can only draw "stick, stick, cucumber and that’s the man who came out." smile
  • Fat
    Fat 1 March 2020 22: 09 New
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    Etruscan ceramics is quite different from Greek, so they can not be confused. The Greek is more complete, "perfect", if I may say so, but the Etruscan vessels are painted as if their creators were in a hurry. In addition, many vessels are completely black, and the drawings on them are scratched!

    There is a simple explanation. Etruscans, except water, did not add anything to the composition of the painting. Try writing on the sand with a wet brush.
    What I did, then I did .... And the marriage came out, so black everything. Do not throw away the same thing!
    The Greeks were able to add at least a little fat to the water. The resulting emulsion lived longer ... Although it was visible. Could finish the drawing.
    After ... And the tempera appeared ...
    Water, milk, yolk ....
  • Mikhail3 2 March 2020 13: 18 New
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    And they have a secret, which is that they do not fade, that is, the painting on them is so resistant that it is not afraid of millennia. How did the ancient masters achieve this?
    Well, how not to laugh, huh ?!)) Here I am, a stupid engineer, without "scientific" degrees and "scientific" publications. What would I do if I fell into the hands of a pot on which a bright painting was preserved, but I don’t know why it does not fade? I, in my stupidity, would go to the potter. Suddenly. And the potter in five minutes would tell how this is all done. And I would ask to show, and the Master and I would spend a day or two in a useful and pleasant orgy of learning and mastering the skill ... oh, love!
    And what do “scientists” historians do? They declare the floating drawings a mystery! These people consider themselves ADULT !! Moreover, by SCIENTISTS !! And they are not ashamed! And they continue to carry their own! O gods my gods, my rhinos ...
    1. kalibr 2 March 2020 15: 58 New
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      Quote: Mikhail3
      Well, how not to laugh, huh?

      The fact that some people are ready to laugh even if they show an ordinary finger is well known. And then a whole painted pot. An occasion more than worthy!
      1. Mikhail3 3 March 2020 09: 12 New
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        Was this a substantial objection? However, he did not expect anything else ...
        1. kalibr 3 March 2020 11: 06 New
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          Do you need a meaningful one? What for? I do not see the point. Which ones do you write? Here, according to Senka, there is a hat, and do not expect anything else.
  • alien308 9 March 2020 21: 34 New
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    The jumper will save the world. There was no better tool in concrete holes to do. But only if you get a strong pebble you need to finish it for a long time.