Homer's poems as a historical source. Antique civilization. H. 1

Anger, oh, goddess, sing Achilles, Peleev's son!
The anger irrepressible of his many calamities Aheyanam did:

Thousands of souls he destroyed the mighty and glorious heroes,
In gloomy Hades sending them! And the body is left nearby
Birds and dogs! Such was the will of the immortal Zeus.
From the very day the discord turned into cruel enmity
Between Atrid king and war hero Achilles.
(Homer. Iliad. Song One. Ulcer, anger. Translation by A. Salnikov)


Not so long ago, not one, but several visitors to the VO website at once expressed themselves in the sense that Japanese culture is, of course, good, but they are confused in names that are difficult to pronounce and too exotic. In response to the offer to write what they wanted, they received answers that something desirable from the Greco-Roman stories and ancient civilization, and the era of its decline. But how to write about the sunset, without describing its flowering? Not turning to its historiography? No, for example, I can not. Therefore, let us do this, we will prepare a cycle of materials on the culture of ancient Greece and Rome, well, and at the beginning of this topic we are just asking for a story about such important historical sources as Homer's poems Iliad and Odyssey.

Homer's poems as a historical source. Antique civilization. H. 1

Details of the helmet from the tusks of the boar, described in the Iliad and relating to the XIV century. BC. from Aigios Vasillios, near the village of Hirokambi in Laconia.

Well, let us begin by emphasizing once again that a person does not know anything about the world around him beyond what his eyes see and hear his ears. That is, roughly speaking, there was neither Ancient Greece, nor Rome, by the way, there are none today either - I wasn’t there. There was no RI, VOSR and BOB - who participated in your and my peers? True, veterans of the Great Patriotic War are still alive, and they can tell us about how it was by word of mouth. Yes ... But that is all! Therefore, we must constantly remember that everything, absolutely everything that we know, we know thanks to the written sources of information - handwritten and printed, well, and now also the LCD screen of a computer monitor connected to the Internet system. Books, newspapers, magazines containing subjective, so to speak “journalistic information” - these are the sources of our information in the first place. At the same time, it is important to emphasize that you again receive subjective information, such as, “but I see this.” This information is supplied to the society by reporters. But there are also journalists who write “as I understand it,” but if he understands at least something, you need to find out. And this is not easy to do. Do you know any languages? So you have to believe a word with what seems to be to know them. But ... should and knows - things are different. And there is - “was and was not”, “saw - did not see”, “understood - did not understand”, and also ... “I write to order” and see what “must be seen”. Therefore, it is very difficult to obtain real information about some events, especially long-standing ones.


“Kabany Helmet” from the tomb No.515 in Mycenae. (National Archaeological Museum in Athens)

However, it helps us in studying them that the written sources that we have at our disposal are also superimposed on the historical artifacts that have come down to us. In the same poem of Homer, the Iliad, the heroes fight with copper-pointed spears, that is, spears with tips of copper. And archaeologists find such! So - this is not fiction. In the poem, the Achaeans - warriors who came to fight in the fortress-based Troy, are described, for example, as “beautifully scrawny”, that is, shod in beautiful leggings and ... archaeologists actually find beautiful “orthopedic” copper leggings, made just by foot. So it was like that!


But the full Achaean armor and helmet (ok.1400, BC). (Nafplion Museum). To run in such armor here would be obviously difficult, but to fight from the chariot is just right.

So the availability of writing is a great achievement of culture. And we are very lucky that the Greeks already had it, that they recorded the creation of Homer, thanks to which we quite well imagine the history and culture of this ancient country and the first, in fact, European civilization.


And remarkable in their quality of their modern reconstruction.

Well, now you can talk about the poem Iliad itself and how it is wonderful. And, besides its artistic merit, it is remarkable primarily because, like the poem Eugene Onegin, rightly considered an encyclopedia of Russian life of the early 19th century, it is an encyclopedia of the ancient society that existed during the bronze age of the XII century. BC er True, Homer himself is about 400 years away from the events he describes. The term is considerable, but life then flowed slowly, there were few changes in it. Therefore, although the debate about how truthfully Homer portrayed the Mycenaean era, living in completely different times, can be considered proven that they are close to reality. For example, in the list of ships given in the poem, there is clear evidence that the Iliad describes the era of the Iron Age, in which Homer was already living, and that which existed in Greece before the invasion of Dorian tribes.


Mycenaean warriors of the XII century. BC er c. Artist J. Rava

As for the name "Iliad", it literally means "Trojan Poem", since Troy also had a second name - "Ilion", and it is used quite often in the poem. For a long time, historians and writers argued about whether this poem describes events that took place in reality, or whether the Trojan War is just a literary, though ingeniously conceived fiction. However, the excavations of Heinrich Schliemann in Troy, showed that the culture, which is almost completely consistent with the description in the Iliad and referred to the end of the II millennium BC. er., was really there.


"Odysseus". The reconstruction of the armor was made by American specialist Matt Potras.

Confirm the existence of a powerful Achaean power in the XIII century BC. er and recently deciphered Hittite texts, and they even contain a number of names known before only from this Greek poem.

The point, however, is only limited to Homer's poems. There is a whole cycle of legends about the Trojan War, the so-called “Trojan cycle” or “Epic cycle”. Something has come down to us in separate fragments, such as, for example, “Kipriy”, something only in the synopsis and retellings of later authors. But Homer's "Iliad" and "Odyssey" are valuable primarily because they have survived to our time almost completely and without foreign inserts.


Dipilon crater, around 750 - 735 BC. It is believed that Homer lived around this time. (Metropolitan Museum, New York)


Helmet and armor of this time. (Archaeological Museum in Argos)

Today it is considered that the Iliad appeared in the 9th — 8th centuries. BC er in the Greek Ionian cities located in Asia Minor, and it was written on the basis of the legends of the Cretan-Mycenaean era that had survived to that time. It contains about 15 700 poems (that is, written in hexameters) and is divided into 24 songs. The action of the poem is rather short-term. However, it contains a lot of exceptionally vivid images and descriptions that allow at least a little to imagine life and - most importantly, the spirit of that era distant from our “today”.

It is hardly worth describing the vicissitudes of the events that led to the righteous anger of Achilles, Peleev’s son and the interference of the Olympic gods in earthly affairs. It is important that in the second song of the Iliad, Homer describes the forces of the opposing sides and reports that, under the leadership of Agamemnon, 1186 ships arrived under the walls of Troy, while the Achaean army itself includes more than 130 thousand soldiers. Is this figure real? Most likely no. But it is important to note that the troops to help Agamemnon were sent from different regions of Hellas.


Helmets (Archaeological Museum in Olympia)

Together with the Trojans under the leadership of the helm-helper Hector, the Dardans (led by Aeneas), as well as Carians, Lycians, meons, Misa, Paflagonians (under the command of Pilemen), Pelasgians, Thracians and Phrygians, fight against the Greek Achaeans.

Here, for example, is the description given in the Iliad of how the legendary Achilles is fitted out for a duel with Hector:
First of all, he put on fast legs
Marvelous by sight, he closed them with a silver buckle, he tightly;
After that, he put on a most powerful armor on a powerful chest;
He threw his sword on his shoulder with a silver-armed hilt,
With a copper blade; and the shield finally took a huge and strong.
The light from the shield far, as from a month at night, has spread.
As if in the sea, night-time sailors shine in the darkness,
The light from the fire that burns far on a rocky peak,
In the house is desolate, and against their will and the waves and the storm
Away from your loved ones carry far on boiling ponto, -
So the shield of Achilles beamed, lush, wondrous to the eyes, over the air
He cast light everywhere. After the helmet took Pelid a multifocal,
Cleverly put on - shone horse-faced and strong star
Above his head, and above him a golden swaying mane,
What is so skillfully Hephaestus strengthened along the ridge, thick.
(Homer. Iliad. Canto of the nineteenth. Renunciation of anger. Translation by A. Salnikov)

Any literary source can be used as an object of historical knowledge with great care, and the Iliad is not an exception. What are, for example, the messages of “a samovidts, who saw the regiment of God on the air,” the vision of Boris and Gleb, who helped Russian soldiers beat the “vile” and similar statements about the miraculous that were included in the domestic historical and literary foundation. And we see the same thing in Homer: his gods behave quite like humans, only still ... much worse! Socrates paid attention to this, asserting that the Greek gods are collections of vices from which no citizen can take an example. But we, in this case, are not at all interested in “divine morality”. We are interested in “helmet-flashing helmets,” a description of the shield of Achilles ”(even forged by Hephaestus, but containing in its description a lot of interesting details about the life of that time), copper armor, broken swords (broken by hitting the helmet!). The heroes of the poem do not disdain to fight stones, that's how, when they lose their brass weapons. And their combat construction is ... phalanx, which is typical for the era of Homer. But the frescoes tell us that in the Crete-Mycenaean era the phalanx was, otherwise why would the soldiers depicted on the Cretan frescoes have large rectangular shields and long spears. With such weapons alone fight quite uncomfortable.


A mural depicting a warrior in a helmet from Pylos.


Artist Antimen: "Ajax takes away the body of the dead Achilles." Painting on a vase. We see a dipilonian shield, that is, a shield with lateral grooves, which once again indicates that they were common in the era of Homer. (Walters Art Museum)

So a grain by text of the Iliad gives us the opportunity, if not to imagine the appearance of the soldiers, participants of the Trojan War, for example, it is unclear from the text how Menelaus and Achilles’s helmets were arranged, then in any case have their text description (without special details), and then ... further expect confirmation from archaeologists, who with their finds fill these gaps in the descriptions.


The Helmet of Menelaus, in the form in which Katsikis Dimitrios of the Greek Association of Historians Korivantes reconstructed it, consists of three bronze plates connected by rivets. Four horns - made of painted wood. They give it a characteristic frightening look, but like the “horns” on knight’s helmets in the Middle Ages, they most likely were fixed insecurely.


But they represent Menelaus himself ...


However, we are accustomed to see the heroes of the Trojan War, all the same as they were portrayed later. So, for example, how it was done, the Greek potter and painter Exeky, who worked in the style of black-figure ceramics, and depicted Achilles and Ajax playing dice. This episode in the Iliad is not. But why should they not play at their leisure? That is, Exeky just made this story up for his mural. And again ... why don't he come up with it? By the way, dressed in armor Achilles and Ajax playing dice with excitement, what happens to people accustomed to war.


Since the history of classical Greece is closer to us and we have a lot of images of its soldiers on the same black-figure and red-figure vessels, we and the soldiers of the Trojan War are most often represented like this. In the figure, the Spartan warrior 546 BC. er (Artist Steve Noon)

In the Iliad, the cunning Odyssey, the favorite of the goddess Athena, wears a helmet made from wild boar tusks, moreover, he describes in great detail by Homer
The helmet was of leather; inside he was woven with straps and tied
Hard; like a protection on the outside around him
White boar's fangs, like dragon's teeth, glittered
In the slender, beautiful ranks; and the helmet was hit by a thick cloth.
This ancient helmet had long taken Eleon Autolycus from the walls ...
(Homer. Iliad. Song of the Tenth. Dolonia. Translation by A. Salnikov)

One could wonder for as long as I wanted how and why such helmets were made from boar tusks. Indeed, the location of the Greeks was already metal. And it’s not for nothing that the Hector Trojan in the poem is constantly called “helmet-mite”. However, when the remains of such helmets were found by archaeologists, their description given in the poem was fully confirmed.


Helmet of boar tusks. (Archaeological Museum of Athens)

Interestingly, the oldest manuscript containing the full text of the Iliad is the illuminated manuscript of the end of the 5th - the beginning of the 6th century from Byzantium, which is called the "Ambrosian Iliad" after the library in which it is located. But the oldest manuscript containing the full text of the Iliad is Venetus A from the library of St. Mark, written in the 10th century. Well, the very first print edition of the Iliad appeared in Florence in 1488.


Achilles's Triumph over Hector. Fresco in the Achillion palace on the island of Kerkyra in Greece. (1890)

Many authors, beginning with Lomonosov, tried to translate the Iliad and the Odyssey into Russian. "Iliad" translated N.I. Gnedich (1829) is still considered the best example of such a translation and accurately conveys the feeling of the original in terms of the strength and vivid imagery of the language, although it is replete with archaisms, which are no longer characteristic of modern speech. Today there are four translators (and translations) of the Iliad: Gnedich Nikolay Ivanovich - translation of 1829; Minsky Nikolay Maksimovich - translation of 1896; Veresaev Vincent Vikentievich - translation of 1949 of the city: Salnikov Alexander Arkadyevich - translation of 2011, and, accordingly, four translators (and translation) of the Odyssey: Zhukovsky Vasily Andreyevich - translation of 1849; Veresaev Vikenty V. Vikentyevich - translation 1945 g .; Shuisky Pavel Alexandrovich - translation of 1848; Alexander Arkadyevich Salnikov - translation of 2015. According to many readers, the translations of the Iliad and Odyssey by A. Salnikov have already been noted as the best and most convenient for modern reading.


Reconstruction of the Dendra armor, so to speak, in action. Association of Historical Studies KORYVANTES. Photo by Andreas Smaragdis.

The author is grateful to Katsikis Dimitrios (http://www.hellenicarmors.gr), as well as to the Greek association Korivantes (koryvantes.org) and personally to Matt Potras for providing photos of his renovations and information.

To be continued ...
Author:
Ctrl Enter

Noticed a mistake Highlight text and press. Ctrl + Enter

97 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. Cat
    Cat 23 October 2018 05: 35 New
    • 6
    • 0
    +6
    Plus, huge Vyacheslav Olegovich !!!
    While there are no words, only emotions - good day to all !!!
    1. For example 24 October 2018 22: 02 New
      • 3
      • 1
      +2
      True, Homer himself is separated from the events he describes by about 400 years. The term is considerable, but life then flowed slowly, there were few changes in it.

      Oh, these storytellers laughing
      Life says then flowed slowly lol
      Here the "author" writes -

      As for the name “Iliad,” it literally means “Trojan poem,” since Troy also had a second name, “Ilion,” and it is used quite often in the poem. For a long time, historians and writers have debated whether this poem describes events that took place in reality, or whether the Trojan War is just a literary, albeit brilliantly conceived fiction. However, the excavation of Heinrich Schliemann in Troy showedthat culture, which is almost completely consistent with the description in the Iliad and related to the end of the II millennium BC. e., really was there.

      And here is Wikipedia -
      The name Ἰλιάς "Iliad" literally means "Trojan poem", in accordance with the second name of Troy - "Ilion".

      For a long time, researchers argued about whether the poem describes real events, or whether the Trojan War was just fiction. Schliemann's excavations in Troy discovered a culture corresponding to the descriptions in the Iliad and relating to the end of the second millennium BC. e.


      Oh, these "historians."

      At school, this "scientific genre" was called "exposition." Who does not remember - the teacher read the text, and the students at the end wrote down what they heard in the notebook. The closer to the text, the higher the score.



      Who does not want to describe the events of 400 years ago? By memory.
      life then flowed slowly, there were few changes in it.
      wassat laughing
  2. 3x3zsave 23 October 2018 06: 17 New
    • 4
    • 0
    +4
    Great start!
    Interestingly, two of the three reenactors are shod, while the images of people on vases are barefoot. Is this a tribute to modern non-fitness or a historical fact?
    1. kalibr 23 October 2018 08: 44 New
      • 5
      • 0
      +5
      There is a fresco from Pylos, where one of the combatants has shoes on his feet, covering his foot and leggings.
  3. M. Michelson 23 October 2018 06: 22 New
    • 4
    • 1
    +3
    If someone Toyotomi harder to pronounce than Agamemnon, is everything alright with such a head?
    1. Cat
      Cat 23 October 2018 11: 43 New
      • 8
      • 0
      +8
      You may consider me abnormal, but Homer's epic and the history of Hellas are much closer and dearer to me than the chronicles of the seigunate of medieval Japan.
      However, I knew and I know many smart people who, having problems with diction and rhetoric, remain the strongest scientists and teachers of the Ural region. And even a couple of three generals who do not like complex or unpronounceable words!
      And what from this?
      I think the banal ancient Greek culture is closer to us, if we are not their descendants, then from childhood they have been uniquely attached to their values!
      Sincerely, Kitty! How is it Agag, Agag, well, Toyotima .... let them both go through the woods! Pike!
      1. Korsar4 23 October 2018 21: 49 New
        • 3
        • 0
        +3
        And what is abnormal here?

        Greece - Rome - Arab World - Europe again - and several waves to us.

        Not a foreign civilization. At least not all of them "studied at the gymnasiums" (c).
        1. Mikhail Matyugin 24 October 2018 21: 29 New
          • 2
          • 0
          +2
          Quote: Korsar4
          Greece - Rome - Arab World - Europe again - and several waves to us.

          Not a foreign civilization.

          Correct you a little. You became the next victim of a “stamp”, a “black myth” allegedly that there was nothing left in Europe in the Middle Ages. So, from the Arab caliphate, we borrowed only all sorts of Arabic poetry and a certain number of chronicles. And most of the ancient population was preserved and transmitted through European scientific centers, including Byzantium.
          1. Korsar4 24 October 2018 22: 11 New
            • 2
            • 0
            +2
            And the same herbalists Dioscorides in the Arabic version?

            I agree with you that there was no "Dark Time" in the Middle Ages in Europe.
            But the saturation was from different civilizations.
          2. tezey 27 October 2018 22: 09 New
            • 1
            • 0
            +1
            By the way. Modern mathematics is based on the Indo-Arabic calculus. The fundamental concept was the concept of zero. This calculus came to Europe precisely from the Cordoba emirate, and Europeans came to the universities of Cordoba, Seville, Malaga, and Granada carefully copied and translated "a certain" number of scientific works by both ancient authors and Arabic authors in mathematics, philosophy, medicine, geography, and physics. in Latin. In Byzantium, a truly ancient heritage was preserved. But in what European medieval "scientific" centers, a large part of the ancient heritage was preserved a big mystery. It should be noted that the ancient heritage in the field of scientific knowledge in Europe was understood in a peculiar way, so the answer to new concepts in cosmology proposed by Giordano Bruno was his burning in 1600. So that Greece, Rome, the Arab world, Europe, and several waves are fair to us and not just a stamp or myth.
            1. Mikhail Matyugin 28 October 2018 00: 30 New
              • 1
              • 0
              +1
              Quote: Theseus
              so the answer to new concepts in cosmology proposed by Giordano Bruno was his burning in 1600

              Well, well ... Already the fifth part of the 21 century is in the yard - and you all rely on the clichés of Soviet atheistic propaganda. There are such things as originals of testimonies and court records in the Bruno case - and so, he was burned, not at all for “science” as such, he almost did not do science at all, but for philosophizing, and even of a very original nature. And you apparently are completely unaware that you didn’t want to burn him at all, and for a long time you persuaded him to simply renounce his extravagant views and "close the topic."

              Yes, if you read his philosophies, you would understand that they are far from modern science.
            2. Rey_ka 12 December 2018 09: 23 New
              • 0
              • 0
              0
              But how did all of Europe, well, did we also use Roman Greek numbers until the XNUMXth century?
        2. Antares 25 October 2018 23: 31 New
          • 1
          • 0
          +1
          Quote: Korsar4
          Greece - Rome - Arab World - Europe again - and several waves to us.

          Europe is the whole heiress of Great Rome. and the eastern part was fueled by greatness and culture for a long time.
  4. Korsar4 23 October 2018 06: 53 New
    • 6
    • 0
    +6
    Thanks for the topic and for the photos.

    One of the childhood books is the arrangement of the Trojan War and Heroes by Tudorovskaya.
  5. kalibr 23 October 2018 07: 10 New
    • 2
    • 0
    +2
    [quote = 3x3zsave] Is this a tribute to modern non-fitness or a historical fact?
    I don’t know, I didn’t ask ... did not pay attention.
  6. Chertt 23 October 2018 07: 29 New
    • 4
    • 0
    +4
    I read the translation of Gnedich, very much. And in the translation of Zhukovsky, there is absolutely no sense of antiquity. Today I download translations of the Iliad and Odyssey by A. Salnikov. Thanks to the author of the article
    1. Korsar4 23 October 2018 08: 07 New
      • 4
      • 0
      +4
      Similarly. Gnedich's "Iliad" is perceived. Zhukovsky’s “Odyssey” is not very.
  7. Albatroz 23 October 2018 08: 34 New
    • 3
    • 0
    +3
    Valuable source, thanks!
  8. tlauicol 23 October 2018 08: 39 New
    • 3
    • 0
    +3
    The armor is very similar to the Chukchi, although the tactics of use are completely different
    1. Cat
      Cat 23 October 2018 11: 28 New
      • 3
      • 0
      +3
      Perhaps the Chukchi armor is similar to the equipment of the heroes of Homer!
      Although I think looking for a causal relationship is more than meaningless!
      Sincerely, Vlad Kotische!
      1. tlauicol 23 October 2018 13: 04 New
        • 2
        • 0
        +2
        Converged Evolution of Armor smile
  9. marline 23 October 2018 09: 22 New
    • 1
    • 0
    +1
    The figure shows the Spartan warrior 546 BC. e. (Artist Steve Nun)

    Yes, the Spartan warriors are stern: neither you tunic, nor chlamydas, the groin is not even covered with pterigami.
    I would also like to know how the new series of articles will fundamentally differ from the already existing series on this site in 13 parts devoted to the Trojan War.
    1. Curious 23 October 2018 09: 56 New
      • 2
      • 0
      +2
      Theoretically, a series of articles should not be about the Trojan War, but the works of Homer, as a historical source. With this in mind, the cycle should have begun with the "Homer question" as a necessary basis for this. Let's look at the further development of events.
      1. marline 23 October 2018 10: 10 New
        • 2
        • 0
        +2
        Quote: Curious
        With this in mind, the cycle should have begun with the "Homer question" as a necessary basis for this. Let's look at the further development of events.

        Victor, you read minds right. To admit, opening an article with that name, you expect a detective on the subject of the personality of an ancient Greek poet, but here the expectations are somewhat diminished ... However, really, let's see.
        1. Curious 23 October 2018 12: 33 New
          • 2
          • 0
          +2
          If you want a detective, then start at least with François Edlene (Academic Assumptions about the Iliad 1664), although it is possible with Pisistratus and his commission.
    2. kalibr 23 October 2018 10: 42 New
      • 1
      • 0
      +1
      It will differ in the focus of the plot. There - weapon accent - here is the source base.
    3. Mikhail Matyugin 23 October 2018 15: 13 New
      • 3
      • 0
      +3
      Quote: merlin
      Yes, the Spartan warriors are stern: neither you tunic, nor chlamydas, the groin is not even covered with pterigami.

      Actually, this is not a complete suit of Spartiate. The complete set of armor was full of two-sided bracers and legguards, it was not just that the Spartiate was accompanied by several helots on the battlefield - a complete analogue of a medieval knight, only on foot.
      1. marline 23 October 2018 16: 59 New
        • 1
        • 0
        +1
        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
        Actually, this is not a complete suit of Spartiate.

        Michael, in the caption to the drawing it was not said that the armor was incomplete.
        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
        The full set of armor included full two-way bracers and legguards,

        In order to carry the bracers and legguards, the "few" helots are completely redundant.
        In addition, if you trust P. Connolly, the bracers, legguards and shoulder pads (which you forgot to mention, although they were more common than, for example, bracers) were really used by the Spartians, but were not widespread and went out of use by the end of the XNUMXth century. In the bottom line, the standard armament of the Spartiate included what was shown in the figure: Aspis, Dori, Xyphos, Hippothorax (or Linothorax), Knimids, Leggings and Helmet.
        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
        it was not just that Spartiate was accompanied by several helots.

        Of course, not just like that - after all, someone had to carry food.

        Well, the last, I would like you to carefully read my post again: it did not concern the armor of the Spartiate, but that the Spartiate was naked.
        1. kalibr 23 October 2018 19: 59 New
          • 1
          • 0
          +1
          I didn’t draw it. What I found, then laid out, but in many reconstructions the early Spartiates are shown with bare shame!
          1. marline 24 October 2018 08: 40 New
            • 1
            • 0
            +1
            Quote: kalibr
            I didn’t draw it. What I found, then laid out,

            Well, they laid out the same, no one I think forced you to include this particular picture ... wink
            Quote: kalibr
            but in many reconstructions, the early Spartiates are shown with bare shame!

            Apparently, the reenactors did not read Xenophon, or the already mentioned P. Connolly.
        2. kalibr 23 October 2018 21: 21 New
          • 1
          • 0
          +1
          Here are a lot of interesting illustrations and there is a publication in Russian ...
        3. Mikhail Matyugin 24 October 2018 21: 31 New
          • 1
          • 0
          +1
          Quote: merlin
          Of course, not just like that - after all, someone had to carry food.

          Food to wear? Sorry, but you are apparently very far from the realities of the Spartan army, I will not comment anymore.
          1. marline 25 October 2018 07: 19 New
            • 0
            • 0
            0
            Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
            I will not comment anymore.

            That's right, read better Xenophon.
            1. Mikhail Matyugin 25 October 2018 12: 41 New
              • 3
              • 0
              +3
              Traumatic servants and provisions - this is somewhat different, I'm talking about the Helots, who were, as it were, a military unit led by the Spartiate. But the continuation of this topic is already very offtopic here.
              1. marline 25 October 2018 14: 14 New
                • 2
                • 0
                +2
                Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
                Traumatic servants and provisions - this is somewhat different, I'm talking about the Helots, who were, as it were, a military unit led by the Spartiate. But the continuation of this topic is already very offtopic here.

                Clear. I completely agree with this. According to Herodotus, already in the course of the Greco-Persian wars, there were seven times more Helots-Peltasts somewhere. Although how applicable the concept of "squire" is a moot point. But you are right again - the continuation of the dispute looks like offtopic.
  10. tlauicol 23 October 2018 09: 35 New
    • 3
    • 0
    +3
    How many pigs did you need to wear on one helmet !?
    1. kalibr 23 October 2018 16: 51 New
      • 2
      • 0
      +2
      20 at least. This is the same meat! Eat meat - save fangs!
      1. tlauicol 23 October 2018 17: 19 New
        • 2
        • 0
        +2
        You can immediately. Using dentistry good
        1. Cat
          Cat 24 October 2018 04: 35 New
          • 3
          • 0
          +3
          Pig God will curse you !!! laughing
        2. abrakadabre 27 October 2018 16: 49 New
          • 0
          • 0
          0
          You can immediately. Using dentistry
          Given that the fangs of the right size do not grow far from the milk pig, it’s easier to slaughter a boar for meat and remove the desired teeth from the carcass than to risk life against a 200-kilogram angry carcass.
        3. Rey_ka 12 December 2018 09: 27 New
          • 0
          • 0
          0
          Well, as in a joke so that for the sake of one jellied meat, you can cut an entire pig
  11. Curious 23 October 2018 09: 46 New
    • 1
    • 0
    +1
    Yes, Vyacheslav Olegovich, the topic is, of course, fundamental. Perhaps it was worth starting all the same with the Homer question?
  12. alatanas 23 October 2018 10: 03 New
    • 2
    • 0
    +2
    One could wonder how long and why such helmets were made from wild boar fangs. After all, the Greeks already had metal
    .
    The answer is very simple. Such a helmet is quite strong, and also much lighter than a metal one.
    1. Cat
      Cat 23 October 2018 11: 33 New
      • 1
      • 0
      +1
      Quote: alatanas
      One could wonder how long and why such helmets were made from wild boar fangs. After all, the Greeks already had metal
      .
      The answer is very simple. Such a helmet is quite strong, and also much lighter than a metal one.

      It can be corny, cheaper and more technologically advanced in production!
      I heard and read that armor from sections of animal hooves was much heavier than chain mail!
      Sincerely, Kitty!
      1. Mikhail Matyugin 23 October 2018 15: 15 New
        • 4
        • 0
        +4
        Quote: Kotischa
        I heard and read that armor from sections of animal hooves was much heavier than chain mail!

        This is for nomads - the same shells from sections of hooves, etc. The fact is that such good i.e. raw materials for armor - the kneelers had a lot, and iron and steel - things were always quite expensive.
  13. BAI
    BAI 23 October 2018 10: 28 New
    • 2
    • 0
    +2
    Some of the photos are very familiar. And it is on other articles of the author. It seems that something was connected with Crete.
    1. Cat
      Cat 23 October 2018 20: 18 New
      • 1
      • 0
      +1
      So the elliad is directly related to the events of the Crete-Mycenaean civilization!
  14. Trilobite Master 23 October 2018 11: 11 New
    • 8
    • 2
    +6
    Anticipating the emergence of odious connoisseurs of history, speak out. Better colleagues hear it from me than from anyone else. laughing
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, the theme of the key participation of the Slavs in the Trojan War has not been completely disclosed. It is clear that this was civil strife within the Great Slavic-Russian Empire. For some reason, the translators of the Iliad and Odyssey "missed" that in the original text Homer mentions the troops of the Rus no less than seventeen times that both the Troy rebels and the Moscow Cossacks Menelaya are under the sign of the Trinity (right-to-nav), and by the way, and the name of the city is Troy-Ilion (Ilya it). You can tell a lot more truth, hidden by historians, for example, that Odysseus (Ivan Odessey is correct) is the main governor of the Great Emperor in Odessa and adjacent territories, the fact that in the original text of the Iliad is written about the Moscow Cossack army, but we this traditional historians do not say ... wassat
    In short, I staked out this topic. Those who wish to develop it, settle down. smile
    1. marline 23 October 2018 11: 35 New
      • 3
      • 0
      +3
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      It is clear that this was a civil strife within the framework of the Great Slavic-Russian Empire.

      What's this. I remember watching the BBC program, so it was said in all seriousness that the war happened as a result of the Trojans blocking cocainum traffic to Athens.
      1. Mikhail Matyugin 23 October 2018 15: 18 New
        • 4
        • 0
        +4
        Quote: merlin
        I remember watching the BBC program, so it was said in all seriousness that the war happened as a result of the Trojans blocking cocainum traffic to Athens.

        Actually, about cocainum - I don’t know, its plantations are beyond the Atlantic (although there is an absolutely reliable historical fact - in one of the ancient Egyptian mummies its traces were found !!!).

        And so - about opioids - they were very active in ancient times in the Middle East (even special ritual dishes in the shape of poppy heads and even with remains of contents were preserved and found by archaeologists), especially at that time, and the Troas power (apparently a vassal of the Hittite empire ) was the main trading middle in the Aegean basin (and they had on their territory and controlled the trading posts of merchants from Babylonia and Syria), so the creators of that program were quite in the subject.
        1. marline 23 October 2018 17: 06 New
          • 2
          • 0
          +2
          Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
          And so - about opioids - they in the Middle East in ancient times dabbled extremely actively, especially at that time, and the Troas power was the main trading middle in the Aegean basin

          Did you watch that show too?
          And they forgot to add that Elena the Beautiful is just a symbol of a beautiful poppy flower. Well, or was beautiful after drinking opiates.
          1. Mikhail Matyugin 24 October 2018 21: 33 New
            • 2
            • 0
            +2
            Quote: merlin
            Did you watch that show too?
            And they forgot to add that Elena the Beautiful is just a symbol of a beautiful poppy flower. Well, or was beautiful after drinking opiates.

            No, I didn’t look and have no idea, I just have a good enough acquaintance with modern archeology. And such an analogy is already clearly over the top.
            1. marline 25 October 2018 07: 22 New
              • 0
              • 0
              0
              Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
              And such an analogy is already clearly over the top.

              The BBC did not think so.
              1. abrakadabre 27 October 2018 16: 54 New
                • 0
                • 0
                0
                The BBC did not think so.
                Can they not understand opiates, having industrial plantations in Afghanistan with the Americans?
                PS Given the focus of the site, the BBC is always drawn to read like the Air Force. smile
      2. Curious 23 October 2018 19: 12 New
        • 5
        • 0
        +5
        "... there it was stated in all seriousness that the war happened as a result of the Trojans blocking cocainum traffic to Athens.
        "The drug threw quickly into the wine they drank,
        Woe and anger drown in him, and disaster oblivion comes.
        If someone drank it with wine mixed in a crater,
        All day long from the cheek would not drop a tear,
        Even if death happened to both father and mother,
        Had right before him or brother, il dear son
        They killed with sharp copper and he would have seen everything with his eyes "
        "The Odyssey" (per. VA Zhukovsky).
        Do you need more evidence?
        1. marline 24 October 2018 08: 43 New
          • 1
          • 0
          +1
          Quote: Curious
          Do you need more evidence?

          Victor, I'm not talking about the use of substances by the ancient Greeks in general. I'm talking about the reasons for the Trojan war.
          1. Curious 24 October 2018 09: 10 New
            • 2
            • 0
            +2
            And the reasons are somewhere close, in trade, apparently. If so, it was generally.
        2. Antares 25 October 2018 23: 43 New
          • 0
          • 0
          0
          Quote: Curious
          "The drug threw quickly into the wine they drank,

          the Greek wine was not too strong, not too sweet and the usual consistency
          ancient wines often contained plant aromatic additives - tar, rosé, saffron and many other wines existed, and the Romans even invented vermouth
          Wine itself was a traditional Mediterranean drug (so it’s already a traditional drug of our area)
          the only mention of a certain narcotic drug, which was mixed in wine, in order to bring the drinker into a state of euphoric joy. Homer, describing the rich feast given by the Spartan king Menelaus and his wife Elena, says:

          A clever thought was awakened then in the noble Helen:
          In the bowls she poured a circular sap intended to juice
          Sweet, peace-keeping, oblivion of the heart
          The calamities of the giver; one who drank wine, with beneficent
          Drenched with juice, was cheerful all day and could not cry,
          If both mother and father had lost an unexpected death,
          If by chance a brother lost his il dear son,
          Suddenly in front of his eyes struck by abusive copper.

          Maybe it was opium? laughing . But they used it either as a sleeping pill, as can be seen from the verse of Parmenon from Byzantium:
          Who drinks wine like a soared steed of water,
          Does not pronounce clearly a single letter:
          Without words, he will sleep over his barrel,
          As if poppy infusion drunk him
          (Athenaeus, 221 a)

          in general, wine itself is a traditional narcotic potion. and Greek is also sweet and sweet.
          various additives and potions can be added to the wine (medicinal or opium, such as anti-venom)
          "flavorings" of that time were added to wine.
          and by the way
          according to Gindin and Tsymbursky, Troy is the designation of the country, and Ilion is the city
    2. kalibr 23 October 2018 12: 10 New
      • 2
      • 1
      +1
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      Vyacheslav Olegovich, the topic of the key participation of the Slavs in the Trojan War was not completely disclosed.

      Do not be surprised: this topic is !!! There are names and CARDS (oh, these cards), with places in Russia where these names contain TRO, THREE, TROA ... That is, O - lost or replaced, or I added - here you have Troy. And Agamemnon is a Slavic prince ... well, then you’ll come up with it yourself. I read about it, alas. But he did not write. Time is expensive!
      1. Trilobite Master 23 October 2018 12: 42 New
        • 5
        • 1
        +4
        Quote: kalibr
        I read about it, alas. But he did not write.

        It was not enough for YOU to write about it. Have pity not only time, but also your own head - to try to study and analyze this nonsense is the same as consciously going into the booze.
        Quote: kalibr
        Do not be surprised: this theme is !!!

        The fact that this topic is, I did not doubt at all. The theme of the Trojan War is known to everyone, it cannot get around folk history. Here, for example, to bring the dynasty of the Swedish or Scottish kings into dynastic parallelism, their hands still, it seems, did not reach, after all, the periphery of world history, and the central events described in school textbooks are like God is holy, here they are all filthy and distorted from all over. Given their wild, but somewhat monotonous fantasy, I do not exclude that I even guessed part of their theses or arguments.
      2. Operator 23 October 2018 21: 08 New
        • 1
        • 2
        -1
        The Trojans spoke a Sanskrit dialect, hence Troy / Truish - from the numeral "three".

        The Hellenic (rude) name of Troy is Ilion.
      3. Rey_ka 12 December 2018 09: 36 New
        • 0
        • 0
        0
        it remains to prove that Apollo was a hyperborean and all
    3. Polkanov 23 October 2018 18: 26 New
      • 2
      • 0
      +2
      ... that you smoke there uninteresting. I wonder when you have time to write down your nonsense? ...
    4. Cetron 23 October 2018 21: 44 New
      • 2
      • 2
      0
      Well, who dug up the Black Sea and the Caucasus poured the whole civilized world knows.
      1. Antares 25 October 2018 23: 45 New
        • 0
        • 0
        0
        Quote: Cetron
        Well, who dug up the Black Sea and the Caucasus poured the whole civilized world knows.

        as one famous author says on a military review, they were not there, but there were "super-Russians" and they were digging something ... laughing
    5. Rey_ka 12 December 2018 09: 29 New
      • 0
      • 0
      0
      Now you are up on this pillar!
  15. frog 23 October 2018 11: 27 New
    • 1
    • 0
    +1
    Thanks to the author, of course !!!
    However, there are a few "questions from the amateur" .....
    Interestingly, the the oldest manuscript containing the full text "Iliad", is an illuminated manuscript of the late V - early VI century from Byzantium, which is called "Ambrosian Iliad" by the name of the library in which it is located. The oldest manuscript containing the full text of the Iliad, is Venetus A from the library of St. Mark, written in the X century. Well, the very first print edition of the Iliad appeared in Florence in 1488.

    Eeeee ..... so which one is the "oldest"? "Illuminated" ???? 5th century manuscript or text written in 10th? I can assume sho with illumination))) everything is somewhat simpler - a banal typo .... But with dates ....
    Well, the old as a world topic about the blindness of the author of these works (I, of course, about Homer)) Unfortunately, I don’t remember now, but I read a certain work where it was quite logical to argue that the blind couldn’t write like that. The author suggested that Homer lost his sight already in, so to speak, adulthood. If at all, he wrote, because he could simply compile some kind of compilation from "oral folk art." Which does not detract from his merits. Or he got his nickname on the basis of the assumptions of EMNIP, Mr. Bushkov ... In one of his works, this comrade presented this story in a slightly different way. Almost complete analogy with Yeskov, who wailed a certain story "based on" the Professor ...
    1. kalibr 23 October 2018 12: 05 New
      • 1
      • 0
      +1
      Quote: frog
      shaw with illumination))) everything is somewhat simpler - a banal typo .... But here with the dates ....

      Illuminated, that is, provided with pictures, this is the term. There is just handwritten text, but there are illustrations.
      1. frog 23 October 2018 12: 20 New
        • 0
        • 0
        0
        Sobssno, I roughly meant it. Thanks, of course, but what about the other .... residuals? Well, by golly, not for nitpicking, just wondering .....
        1. kalibr 23 October 2018 12: 41 New
          • 1
          • 0
          +1
          And what are the problems there?
          1. frog 23 October 2018 13: 26 New
            • 0
            • 0
            0
            So I like in the first comment noted type bold))))
            Since for Homer actually asking you, at least, is strange ....
            1. kalibr 23 October 2018 16: 49 New
              • 1
              • 0
              +1
              I understood what you meant. In one case, THIS IS AN ILLUSTRATED MANUSCRIPT. That's all!
              1. frog 23 October 2018 17: 47 New
                • 1
                • 0
                +1
                Thanks a lot!!
      2. Curious 23 October 2018 12: 37 New
        • 2
        • 0
        +2
        You see, Vyacheslav Olegovich, the relevant questions went, just confirming that it was necessary to start with a brief excursion into home studies and its main questions - the problems of authorship of poems, the circumstances of their creation, the documentary and historical basis of the poems, their artistic, stylistic originality.
        1. kalibr 23 October 2018 12: 43 New
          • 1
          • 0
          +1
          You want to say that in ALL THIS it will be easier for someone to understand than in "illuminated manuscripts." I doubt very much ... And besides, I am not a writer.
          1. Curious 23 October 2018 12: 52 New
            • 3
            • 0
            +3
            Losev and Klein are also not writers, but they pay attention to this issue without fail. If we consider the work of Homer "as a historical source", then the origin of this source should be given attention by definition. And we started with the armor.
            1. Roni 23 October 2018 14: 00 New
              • 3
              • 0
              +3
              Thank you to the author for the topic (demand creates supply, and that's right, and nice).
              But let me disagree with the fact that you need to start as in a textbook, with an introduction.

              It seems to me that the ready-made answers (which piece, where it was cut from, for which dish is best suited and what to season with) is not the most important thing. Although, I am already looking forward to continuing, and with the hope of filling the gaps.
              The topic is very extensive and close to many, but how many readers will be able to ask a really interesting question? Well, let there be only ten serious questions on a dozen popular and well-worn questions (I’m so interested, well, it’s so interesting that there is nothing to ask at all, it's sad).
              And when a mosaic of facts, pictures, discussion - there is an excitement to collect, add, understand, then there is a chance, grab the question by the tail.

              It's like starting to learn a language not from the alphabet and grammar, but from your favorite songs and catchphrases.
              1. kalibr 23 October 2018 16: 47 New
                • 2
                • 0
                +2
                Quote: Roni
                The topic is very extensive and close to many, but how many readers will be able to ask a really interesting question? Well, let there be only ten serious questions on a dozen popular and well-worn questions (I’m so interested, well, it’s so interesting that there is nothing to ask at all, it's sad).
                And when a mosaic of facts, pictures, discussion - there is an excitement to collect, add, understand, then there is a chance, grab the question by the tail.

                It's like starting to learn a language not from the alphabet and grammar, but from your favorite songs and catchphrases.

                Very well you said!
  16. AK64 23 October 2018 17: 14 New
    • 1
    • 0
    +1
    Shuisky Pavel Aleksandrovich - translation of 1848

    Shuisky - 1948. Not eight hundred.

    And this is apparently the best (especially in the historical context) - there are .... nuances
  17. Anton Yu 23 October 2018 17: 55 New
    • 0
    • 0
    0
    Note to the author. The city was called Ilion by the Greeks, and the area was called Troas. The locals were related to the Hittites and had nothing to do with the Greeks. The local name of the city is Vilusa.
    1. Cat
      Cat 23 October 2018 20: 27 New
      • 1
      • 0
      +1
      Tricky question!
      The ancient Greeks are Indo-Europeans!
      The Hets also spoke the Indo-European language!
      And sha not relatives? I wonder why Homer doesn’t mention translators?
      1. Anton Yu 23 October 2018 22: 15 New
        • 1
        • 0
        +1
        Tell me at least one piece of art that mentions a translator?
  18. kalibr 23 October 2018 19: 54 New
    • 4
    • 0
    +4
    Quote: Anton Yu
    The city was called by the Greeks Ilion

    Really ... shocked!
    1. Cat
      Cat 23 October 2018 20: 41 New
      • 1
      • 0
      +1
      And if you dear Vyacheslav Olegovich carefully read the article, but found the following lines:
      As for the name “Iliad”, it literally means “Trojan poem”, since Troy also had a second name - Ilion, .......

      So Vyacheslav Olegovich be vigilant, otherwise they will teach something else!
      Sincerely, Kitty!
      1. kalibr 23 October 2018 21: 14 New
        • 1
        • 0
        +1
        Dear Vladislav! I have a rule that I have been following for many years and without which I probably could not write so much. I have been preparing material for a long time, sometimes a year or more. I speak during walking, memorize phrases, paragraphs ... Then I write quickly, in one or two days. And - I immediately forget, switching to a new text. This article was written exactly two weeks ago. During this time, I completely forgot what she was talking about. Now I’m thinking about something completely different and preparing completely different materials ... Sometimes I myself wonder if I wrote it, that's how.
        1. BAI
          BAI 23 October 2018 22: 44 New
          • 4
          • 0
          +4
          I have been preparing material for a long time, sometimes a year or more.

          Is this in the presence of only 950 publications in VO? Yes, you just perfectly preserved. Mufasail is resting.
          1. kalibr 24 October 2018 07: 19 New
            • 2
            • 1
            +1
            I understand that you are joking, but the process goes parallel, books are bought and read, magazines and the Internet are browsed, 1 article, 2 article, 10 are downloaded ... then their compilation is prepared. Photos from the museum ... but no text. The text is - no photo. Everything is there - no permission. Everything takes time. But again, 950 only in VO, and also 300 in Pravda ru. and before that (2015) was no less. So it’s real to me even more ...
    2. 3x3zsave 23 October 2018 21: 18 New
      • 2
      • 1
      +1
      Hush, Vyacheslav Olegovich, do not scare! This is a new look!
      1. Cat
        Cat 23 October 2018 21: 29 New
        • 2
        • 0
        +2
        Vyacheslav Olegovich, for God's sake - I swear there was no desire to offend you in anything. I scoffed at your opponent, who began to teach you without reading the article.
        Dear Anton, on a new type of drive ......? We will see. People tend to make mistakes. So there will be time, there will be food!
        1. kalibr 23 October 2018 21: 46 New
          • 1
          • 0
          +1
          What are you speaking about? What insults? You just noticed one feature of my work that once again characterizes you as an observant and intelligent person. And for my part, I tried to explain why. Perhaps someone will take my method into service - immediately forget what was written and ... move on.
          1. Korsar4 23 October 2018 22: 12 New
            • 1
            • 0
            +1
            Dangerously.
            Although, probably, it can be convenient if it becomes a craft.

            I wonder how many layers of thoughts a person easily holds.
            1. kalibr 24 October 2018 07: 14 New
              • 2
              • 0
              +2
              I’m no less than 4's: a novel that I write in the evenings, a popular science book that I write in the morning and afternoon, an article that I write now, and something domestic.
  19. Bashibuzuk 26 October 2018 10: 29 New
    • 1
    • 0
    +1
    I can’t stop marveling at the performance of Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    I think if for him, as in the book "Yankees at the Court of King Arthur" to adapt drive belts and gearboxes, the whole cascade of Volga hydroelectric power stations would not give out such a number of megawatts.
    Joke.
    It was a joke, but I am really amazed at the performance and good such persistence.
    From history, of course, in all these shards and everything else, there are something we don't know. But we continue with the tenacity of a woodpecker to hollow one and the same thing - greaves, copper-shining helmets and spears, caps from saw cuts of fangs of a wild boar .... etc. etc.
    Because someone once said SO. And if we say differently now, they will not listen to us. The paradigm for it does not command ...
    "People, citizens, brothers ..." .... do you really believe that someone once could go into battle in this stupid copper and tin structure? Did you find a lot of such mantys? One? Or is this also a reconstruction? But can you imagine that it was just the subject of a cult - religious there, musical, even what. And then, to the next “explorer” it got into my head to take it upon myself that I didn’t understand what - and it started.
    THEN we see helmets made of pieces of bone - although such pieces most remind me of elements of a belt or bracelet or pendants, then we see hefty cylinders made of bronze, they say armor. Put on yourself a couple of barrels and at least walk for half an hour - and then we'll talk about armor.
    Some kind of wild raznotnik - we consider the ancients to be much more powerful and smarter than ourselves, then we see that they by no means correspond even to a 11th grade student of our time. To put on a cuirass (for understanding) and leave a bare ass, as in the picture on a vase? Someone is laughing at someone. And I even guess who and when.
    Well, you can’t do that.
    You seriously believe that for one and a half thousand years warriors and blacksmiths, even though they were three times Greek-Achaeans, didn’t come up with anything more sensible than a spear, shield and helmet. And then what were they doing at all? Have you tried copper pans on yourself?
    And then another fifteen hundred years passed, until the 16th century - and again the same thing - a spear, shield and helmet, only of a more refined design and made of steel.
    So it turns out - for three thousand years the thought of a man-fighter-creator revolved exclusively around the fact that hanging yourself with metal and picking up a thread so sharp? And then for some three hundred years the exceptional development of the military-killing business? There’s not even an exhibitor, there’s a natural break in the line in the development schedule, as when they said at school.
    In general, these were fairy tales - the Iliad and Odyssey with Aeneid - and indeed there are fairy tales. Fantasy on the theme of archaic antiquity.
    And here we evaluate .... the influence of fairy tales of the Middle Ages on the current state of history. Some kind of circus.

    A couple of quotes from German-Russian critics of historiography:
    "Books should follow science, not science - after books.
    Francis Bacon.

    Science does not tolerate new ideas. She fights with them.
    M.M. Postnikov. A critical study of the chronology of the ancient world. Volume One Antiquity. Page 5.

    Whatever you think about it, the science of history is in no sense a science. The word "history" today hides partially a collection of jokes, partially a set of chopped pots, and for the most part - a donut hole. No science is hidden behind this word [...] However, if you are not talking about the science of physics, but about the science of history [....] After ten minutes of such a conversation, many will find a mortal enemy in their neighbor, and a personal insult in the subject of the conversation.

    Ilya Stogov, How World History Works, St. Petersburg: Amphora, 2005, p. 10 "
  20. Molot1979 26 October 2018 10: 38 New
    • 0
    • 0
    0
    Question: why is the reconstruction of Menelaus armed with a slander? Was this weapon characteristic of the Achaeans?
    1. kalibr 27 October 2018 17: 28 New
      • 0
      • 0
      0
      In the Iliad there is a description of the weapon with which a certain Trojan attacked Menelaus, but Menelaus killed him. Its name in Greek translates as "pick." But ... hardly the warrior went to war with a pickaxe. Most likely it was something HOOKY. From here and ... this!
  21. Red_Hamer 2 November 2018 15: 13 New
    • 0
    • 0
    0
    Good article, hello Caliber, long time no see! good
  22. Rey_ka 12 December 2018 08: 50 New
    • 0
    • 0
    0
    LCD screen of a computer monitor connected to the Internet.

    once again confirms that if it happens that there will be no Internet, we will not just fly away in the Middle Ages, we will go even lower! In the Middle Ages, at least they possessed crafts and now only the skill of knocking on the keys remained