Gold for war, the fourth wonder of the world and Ephesus marble


Horse fight. The bas-relief depicts the battle between the Ionian Greeks and the Galatians, with the victory for the Greeks. On it, we see a Greek rider in armor, whose horse jumps over a fallen galata, and on the left a galata on foot is trying to cover itself with a shield. Another galat falls from the horse upside down. Already at the beginning of the 3rd century BC. e. Celtic Galatians repeatedly invaded Asia Minor. This relief probably refers to the war of 168-166 BC. e., in which Eumenes II, king of Pergamum, won a brilliant victory over the Galatians. Selcuk, Asia Minor, Turkey (Ephesus Museum, Hovburg, Vienna)


At that time, there was a considerable rebellion against the way of the Lord, because a silver man named Dimitry, who made silver churches of Artemis and brought considerable profit to artists, gathered them and other similar artisans, said: friends! you know that our welfare depends on this craft; meanwhile, you see and hear that, not only in Ephesus, but in almost all of Asia, this Paul seduced a considerable number of people with his convictions, saying that human-made hands are not gods.
And this threatens us with the fact that not only our craft will come to contempt, but the temple of the great goddess Artemis will not mean anything, and the greatness of that revered by all of Asia and the universe will be destroyed. After hearing this, they were filled with rage and began to shout, saying: great is Artemis of Ephesus!
Acts 23:28


Ancient civilization. In our cycle of acquaintance with ancient culture, two materials have already been published: “Croatian Apoxyomen from under the water. Ancient civilization. Part 2 " и “Homer's poems as a historical source. Ancient civilization. Part 1 ". Not so long ago, one of the readers of VO reminded me that there were no new materials on this topic for a long time. And so, "the stars converged." There was a theme for the mood, and for it an interesting illustrative material, and ... the theme of war is also present in it, even if it is not its main one.


"Old men". A fragment of the Northern Parthenon frieze. The Vienna fragment with the heads of two elderly, bearded men facing each other, depicts the so-called tallofors - worthy citizens participating in the procession with olive branches in their hands. The exact location of the fragment inside the frieze is known from the drawings of the French artist Jacques Kerry, who made detailed studies of the Parthenon in 1674, and a little later, in 1687, the Venetians, led by Francesco Morozini, destroyed most of the church during the siege of the city. Dates 442 - 438 years. BC. (Ephesus Museum, Hovburg, Vienna)


So, today our story will be about the fourth wonder of the world - the temple of Artemis at Ephesus. Unfortunately, of the seven miracles that were known in the era of the Ancient World, only one thing survived - three pyramids in Giza. All the rest were destroyed, and if something remained of them, then often it’s not even ruins, but only some fragments of the same decorative decoration, or stone blocks embedded in the walls of later buildings and fortresses. The situation is approximately the same with this magnificent temple, but here we were a little more fortunate. However, first things first ...

It was so that the inhabitants of mainland Greece constantly needed living space and periodically removed some of their citizens to the colony. By the way, in a completely democratic way. To whom to stay, and to whom it was decided to go by lot, that is, the will of the gods. One of these colonies was founded in Asia Minor opposite the island of Samos and was called Ephesus. The city quickly got rich, because it had a favorable location, and grew. Near the city was a small sanctuary of the local fertility goddess in the form of a many-breasted woman. Why the Greeks who came here identified her with their goddess Artemis - a chaste virgin, the goddess of the moon, a huntress, the patroness of young women, animals and ... childbirth, is not entirely clear. But it was so. And every goddess needs a temple and the Ephesians decided to build it. But they did not have money for this until the city in 560 BC did not conquer the Lydian king Croesus, rich well, just to the point of impossibility. And although he conquered the city, he clearly did not dare to quarrel with the Greek gods and especially the goddesses, but on the contrary he made generous donations for the construction of the Temple of Artemis and even ... presented him with several columns. Here it was necessary to build a temple.

Gold for war, the fourth wonder of the world and Ephesus marble
Statue of the goddess Artemis, discovered in 1912 (National Museum, Tripoli).

Since earthquakes were frequent in Asia Minor, a boggy area was chosen as a place for it, hoping that soft soil would soften tremors. They dug a deep foundation pit, laid beams of charred oak trunks at the bottom, and covered it all with a thick layer of stone chips. It was on such a foundation that the first temple was built. Its dimensions were very impressive: length 105 m, width 51 m, and its roof was supported by 127 columns each 18 meters high. The roof beams were of cedar, and the doors of cypress. In Celle - the sanctuary of the temple - was a two-meter statue of the goddess of grape wood, lined with gold and silver


The wounded Amazon. The relief was found in front of the theater in Ephesus, where it was built into the road pavement. Presumably, he was on the altar of the temple of Artemis. However, the last assumption is very controversial Selcuk, Asia Minor, Turkey (Ephesus Museum, Hovburg, Vienna)

Surprisingly, it just so happened that the temple turned out to be closely connected with the fate of another great man of the ancient era - Alexander the Great. It so happened that the new church did not stand even ten years, when it was set on fire by the madman Herostratus, who thus decided to immortalize his name for centuries. He so bluntly said this at the trial and ... the inhabitants of Ephesus decided to swear never to pronounce his name in order to punish him for such a blasphemous act. But, apparently, one of the Ephesians still blabbed, otherwise how would the expression “Glory of Herostratus” become winged?

The question arises: how can a stone temple burn out? But the fact is that in the Greek temples there was a lot of wood. These are partitions inside the temple and doors, and ceiling ceilings. There were rich draperies, oil vessels donated to the temple. All this is an excellent combustible material. In addition, heat turns marble into lime. So it is not surprising that the temple from the fire collapsed to the ground. But all the more surprising is that between the cracked walls and the charred beams, the Ephesians found a statue of Artemis, almost untouched by fire. This was considered a sign, the desire of the goddess, that her temple was restored to this very place. Moreover, comparing the dates, the Ephesians learned that it was on the day when their temple burned down that in the distant Pella the son of the powerful king Philip of Macedon, Alexander, was born. At all times there were malicious and spiteful people, and at that time there were quite a few who started asking the Ephesians why their Artemis had not saved their church from the fire, to which they came up with a very worthy answer: “That night, Artemis assisted during childbirth Alexandra in Pella near Thessaloniki. ”


Corinthian marble capital from the gymnasium palette at the port of Ephesus, 1st century AD It differs in very clearly defined forms. The canonical elements of the Corinthian capitals are fully realized, but at the same time dispense with small decorations and excesses. This component is evidence of the effective work of the architects of the imperial era. Middle Imperial period. Place of detection: Ephesus Harbor Gymnasium, “Marble Hall” Selcuk, Asia Minor, Turkey (Ephesus Museum, Hovburg, Vienna)


The news of the death of the temple shocked all of Greece. The collection of donations for the creation of a new temple, even more beautiful, began. The construction was entrusted to the architect Heirocrates, who began by turning the remaining pile of ruins into his new foundation. They were lined up, rammed and overlaid with marble slabs. After that, the base increased to 125 m in length and 65 in width. The number of columns is 127, they did not change, but 36 of them received carved bas-reliefs at the base of a height of human height. They depicted figures of Greek gods and heroes. The new church was two meters higher due to the higher base, and he also received a roof made of stone slabs lying on stone beams so that some Herostratus would not set it on fire again.

Interestingly, the fate of the temple and Alexander the Great crossed again in 334 BC. e., when he visited him after defeating the Persians, landed in Asia Minor. In honor of the goddess, he organized a ceremonial procession in front of the temple, and promised the inhabitants of Ephesus to give money for the maintenance of the new temple and to pay the costs of its construction. The proposal was tempting, but the inhabitants of Ephesus did not like it primarily because in their eyes even the great Alexander was just ... a barbarian (and everyone who did not speak Greek was considered a barbarian in Greece) and a foreigner, although dangerous, and they resorted to tricks. They stated that they saw him as a god (in our textbooks they usually wrote that the Egyptian priests declared him to be god) and rejected Alexander’s offer on the pretext that God was not to build temples in honor of the goddess. Flattery at all times acted upon people without fail. So Alexander was flattered by such a statement, and he left these places.

It should be noted that the temples in ancient Greece, including the temple of Artemis at Ephesus were not just a center of religious worship. The temple also played the role of a large bank and a place of conclusion of transactions, since its deity was the guarantor of honesty. Anyone who needed money could go to the temple, bring guarantors with him and turn to his main priest with a request for a loan. That is, he played the role ... director of the bank, that's even how. Typically, the interest rate was ten percent, that is, if a person took, say, one hundred talents, then annually paid ten talents as a percentage. Interestingly, the cities paid less - six percent, and if the city needed money for the war, the priests of the temple of Artemis took only a half percent - that’s how they sponsored the war.


Cupids hunting for lions. The theater scene was one of the richly decorated architectural ensembles of Roman Ephesus. Its three-story facade was decorated with sculptures, including this relief. The composition of the frieze is characteristic of the Hellenistic culture. Place of detection: Ephesus Theater. Selcuk, Asia Minor, Turkey. (Ephesus Museum, Hovburg, Vienna)

The temple enjoyed all its privileges under the Romans, only its patron goddess began to be called Diana. Only in 262 A.D. he was plundered and partially destroyed by the Goths. And after 118 years, Emperor Theodosius completely banned paganism, making Christianity the state religion, after which the temple began to be used as a quarry. Both Christians, Seljuk Turks, and Arabs worked on it, the remains of the foundation were covered with silt, as the Kaistra River flowed nearby, so when the Ottoman Turks finally came to these places, they could not even imagine that here then there was the fourth wonder of the world!


Artemis of Ephesus. Roman copy of the 1st century AD from the statue of the Temple of Artemis (Ephesus Museum, Turkey)

Interesting история, is not it? But we, however, are no less interested in the history of the archaeological research of Ephesus. And it began back in 1863, when the British architect and engineer John Turtle Wood, who had been designing railway station buildings on the Smyrna-Aydin line since 1858, became interested in the missing Temple of Artermida in Ephesus, which, however, was mentioned in the New Testament (Acts Apostles 19:34). That is, not only Heinrich Schliemann was inspired by the excavations of ancient lines. There were others besides him. Wood received a firman from Porta for the excavation, the British Museum gave the money, and Wood began to dig. In February 1866, while digging up the theater of Ephesus of Roman times, Wood discovered a Greek inscription saying that gold and silver figurines were transported from the temple to the theater through the Magnesian Gate. A year later, he found the Sacred Way by which Artemision connected with the city. Finally, on December 31, 1869, Wood made his main discovery: he discovered that the ruins of the temple were covered with a six-meter layer of sand, after which he carried out a truly titanic work: from 1872 to 1874 he removed about 3700 cubic meters of sandy-rocky soil. Moreover, he managed to send to the British Museum as much as about 60 tons of various fragments of sculpture and architecture. But due to difficult conditions, his health was shaken and in 1874 he returned to London.


The base of the column of the temple of Artemis at Ephesus. The first figure probably depicts Tanat, the second Alcestius, then Hermes, Persephone and Hades (but he is not visible). OK. 320 BC (Ephesus Museum, Hovburg, Vienna)

It was obvious to the scientific community that an outstanding discovery was made, but ... that not everything was excavated there! Therefore, in 1895, the German archaeologist Otto Benndorf, having agreed with the Austrian Karl Mautner Ritter von Marhof on a subsidy of 10 guilders, resumed excavations there. And in 000, Benndorf founded the Austrian Archaeological Institute, which today plays a key role in the research of Ephesus. Since that time, Austrian scientists have been excavating there almost continuously, or rather, intermittently for two world wars, and have been going on there now since 1898. True, since this year, a local organization such as the Archaeological Museum of Ephesus has also begun to dig there. The British also dug there and in 1954 made an important discovery: the archaeologist David Hogarth found the “treasure of Artemis” - 1903 beautiful pearls, gold earrings, hair pins, brooches and coins from an electron - an alloy of gold and silver, which turned out to be the oldest minted coins. In 3000, the workshop of the great Phidias was excavated there, where three copies of the statue of Artemis from the first, burnt temple were found. So the excavations there have been going on for more than a century, but despite this, only 1956% of the total area of ​​ancient Ephesus has been investigated, it turned out to be so large. True, in September 10, Turkey revoked the license of Austrian archaeologists due to the deterioration of relations between Ankara and Vienna. But it is expected that they will continue after the clarification of relations between these countries. You can see the finds from Ephesus in the Vienna Palace of Hovburg, where there is the whole Vienna Museum of Ephesus, in the Archaeological Museum of Ephesus in the city of Selcuk in Turkey, that is, almost in the same place as the ancient Ephesus, and even swim in the sea nearby, and also at the British Museum.


Statue of the goddess Artemis from the Vatican Museum.

A very important role in the creation of the Museum of Ephesus in Vienna was played by the agreement between the Ottoman Empire and Austria. Then Sultan Abdul Hamid II gave a generous gift to Emperor Franz Joseph: some of the discovered antiquities were presented to his imperial house. Subsequently, the ships of the Austrian Navy fleet brought several consignments of these archaeological finds to Vienna, where they were put on display in the Theseus temple in Volkswagen. So everything that was exhibited in Hovburg got there absolutely legally! And this is especially valuable, since the export of antiquities from Turkey was then generally prohibited after the adoption of the Turkish Antiquities Act of 1907. After that, Vienna from Turkey no longer received anything.


Resting warrior from Ephesus (Ephesus Archaeological Museum)

The collection was kept for many years, until in December 1978 the Vienna Museum of Ephesus in its modern form was finally opened inside the section of the New Palace of the Hovburg complex. Visitors are presented with an impressive array of Greek bas-reliefs and Roman sculptures that once adorned various institutions, including extensive thermal baths and the Theater of Ephesus. A number of architectural elements give the impression of the richly decorated facades of magnificent ancient buildings, and the model of the ancient city allows you to better understand the appropriate location of objects in the topography of Ephesus.


"The adoption of emperors Lucius Vera and Marcus Aurelius." Bas-relief of Roman time (Ephesus Museum, Hovburg, Vienna)

The Ephesus Museum in Vienna is visited annually by two million visitors. And in Turkey, the Ephesus Museum is the most visited tourist attraction after the Hagia Sophia and Topkapi Palace in Istanbul. By the way, the ruins need care, they need reconstruction, as well as the restoration of ancient monuments. Modern Austrian specialists are also engaged in all this in Turkey, although their work is almost imperceptible.


But this is our friend Apoxyomen - an athlete who cleanses himself after a contest. We have already met with the same statue found in Croatia. This is her copy. Or that statue is a copy of this. It is known that Greek athletes after practicing sports and competing in Palestine cleaned themselves of oil and dust with strigilis, a curved scraper. The bronze statue depicts a young man who holds the (lost) strigil with the thumb and forefinger of his left hand. The statue is re-composed of 234 fragments found in the palette of the Ephesus port gymnasium. So, this is one of the copies of Roman times from the lost original of the 4th century BC. e. The statue is 192 cm tall. It was a gift to Emperor Franz Joseph, which in 1911 was made to him by Sultan Abdul Hamid II. Selcuk, Asia Minor, Turkey (Ephesus Museum, Hovburg, Vienna)
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  1. Paul Siebert 19 January 2020 07: 22 New
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    Yes, sorry for the temple of Artemis at Ephesus!
    The eternal curse to the villain Herostratus and all subsequent destroyers of the wonders of Asia Minor!
    But centuries and millennia have passed, and the situation in the region does not change.
    The Middle East is destroyed and plundered by modern barbarians from ISIS, the US armed forces and their minions.
    But from these scum in the centuries, even names will not remain!
    1. Bar2 19 January 2020 09: 56 New
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      The official history of the OI suffers from the selectivity of facts. For example, there are now a large number of sites that offer ancient medieval maps for consideration and these maps contain a completely different version of the story. Let's walk around Greece on occasion.
      It is known that the state of Greece was created by the Roman kings by the middle of the 19th century., As well as other "ancient" states of Italy, Germany.
      -Greece was created by cutting a piece from Ottoman Turkey.
      -Names of localities and cities did not correspond to the generally accepted version of history, so they were replaced by others.
      Candia Crete
      -Misistra / Mistra-Sparta
      Epidaurus Epirus
      -Kyprus-Cyprus
      -Methelin island -Lesbos
      -Tripolitsa-Tripoli
      map of 1857 the city of Tripolitsa is called quite in Russian.



      From the old world in Greece there are such place names
      -Arta -city
      -Kolokhina Bay
      -Galsky cape

      The city of Olympia, where the famous Olympic Games were held, is a small village stylized in antiquity, just a bunch of remodels and there is nothing "antique" there.
      1. Trilobite Master 19 January 2020 14: 42 New
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        Quote: Bar2
        Official History of OI suffers selectivity of facts

        Quote: Bar2
        vintage medieval cards

        How boring and monotonous ... Where is creativity, fantasy, nontriviality of judgments, fresh look? We have already seen these cards (or similar ones) more than once, and personally, I myself several times lucidly explained to you exactly how they were created.
        Well, here you are, so smart, handsome, and endowed with all sorts of superpowers in the field of historical knowledge, if you love these cards so much and have time to study them, conduct a normal study.
        Take the maximum number of these cards, all that are available, without exception, so that they show the same locality, collect data on the time of their release, the names of the creators, the history of creation and make sure that they have not been edited in our time with modern digital technologies (for this you can see the same card on different, independent resources).
        After that, carefully study the toponyms displayed on these maps, compare with modern ones, and examine the changes in the display of toponyms on maps from the past to the present. Examine the credibility of geographic information by overlaying these maps with modern ones. Do not forget also about the phonetic features of various languages ​​and the interpretation of Latin and Cyrillic characters, which can also be confusing. Then in your head systematize the acquired knowledge, analyze it and make generalizations. Based on these generalizations, one can already try to draw conclusions about the nature and causes of some inconsistencies in various maps of various authors and publishers, that is, to formulate a hypothesis, which then will have to be further strengthened, defended and upheld.
        When you have in your hands ten, twenty, thirty copies of various maps of the same area for the last five hundred children made in different countries under different circumstances, you can talk about something. I would also advise you to become familiar with some other sciences, for example, linguistics, before starting research, but ... This advice is not for you - you hardly need it. laughing
        And so - to throw into the network a piece of incomprehensible thing, taken from somewhere, on which to read nothing and proclaim it as some kind of evidence ...
        Would you yourself believe in such crap if Fomenko didn’t have a signature? We don’t have to hold us for the weak-minded, as your guru does regarding his followers.
        1. Bar2 19 January 2020 15: 31 New
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          Quote: Trilobite Master
          When in your hands will be ten, twenty, thirty copies

          this is not a scientific approach. When you come across manuscripts it is not clear what age they come across
          ten and not fifty at a time, but one at a time, so this is your advice with the wording for which Smirnov fines.

          Quote: Trilobite Master
          so - throwing a piece into the network for some reason, taken from somewhere, on which you can’t read anything and proclaim it as some kind of evidence ...


          what helplessness, if you were a real researcher, you wouldn’t have a gundeth, that there are no sources.
          I have been using the famous Galik resource for a long time, there is something to see there.

          Here is a French map of 1867. On the map you can see that the old names are present.
          -Tripolitsa
          -Mistra
          -Art-
          -Kandia -Jandia
          -Brussa, now called Bursa
          -Metelin




          https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b53093157m/f1.item.zoom

          Quote: Trilobite Master
          personally, I myself several times lucidly explained to you exactly how they were created.


          explain again, otherwise I forgot what you said there.
          1. Trilobite Master 19 January 2020 15: 56 New
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            Quote: Bar2
            this is not a scientific approach

            Ooh-ho ... recourse request
            Yes, sadness ... I'm just at a loss.
            That is, to find various options for maps in independent sources, to verify their authenticity is not a scientific approach, but to use Galika is a scientific one. It is unscientific to compare and contrast, and to purposefully seek out formal similarities is scientifically.
            No, you still can still surprise me with something, in vain I am. The intellectual bottom, as you can see, is not an obstacle for you at all - you break through it with extraordinary ease, which, of course, you can be proud of.
            Quote: Bar2
            explain again

            Let me remind you. I once sketched a description of a real-life area where I had been and asked to draw a map of it according to my description. You can even ask a couple of additional questions. And then we compare the result of your creativity with what we actually have. In the Middle Ages, maps were drawn in approximately the same way.
            1. Bar2 19 January 2020 16: 21 New
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              you would speak for specific names, and not for abstract reasons.
              Many names exist on different maps, but unique place names come across as well, and then you have to look for more evidence for evidence.
              All my finds are mostly duplicated by different maps.
            2. Bar2 19 January 2020 21: 56 New
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              Quote: Trilobite Master
              Let me remind you. I once sketched a description of a really existing area,


              that something, like you’re not reminded of a sketch of the real area, can you give a link, or have you forgotten too?
              1. Trilobite Master 20 January 2020 00: 43 New
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                Quote: Bar2
                I don’t recall your sketch of the real area,

                Message dated November 14 last year.
                I had occasion to be in one place. I don’t remember the name of the village, but there is something about the foam and the mustache. There is a river with white water, very fast. Nearby is also a village, some kind of horse name - Konkino or Konevo. In the distance, sometimes, in good weather, mountains are visible. People live different there - there are dark, there are light, there are brown-eyed, there are gray-eyed, there are thick, there are thin, tall and small. They speak Russian there, but it's wonderful, not all words are understandable, and some are confused - for example, a puppy is called a kitten. Around the fields and hills. The river flows from south to north, but in the area of ​​the village makes a loop to the east. Fruits grow there that we don’t have, like orange plums, but with a fluffy skin and others taste like. There are big fluffy apples, but with one big bone inside. There are berries like raspberries, but they grow larger on large trees, and there are berries that look nothing like red and sour, grow on bushes and have one long seed.
                They say that if you go up this river and walk for a long time, you will come to the mountains, where wonderful people live, who say not like us and don’t dress like us, and are called, in my opinion, rats and eagles, or something like that . And if you go down the river for a long, long time, you will go out to the big sea, but along the way you will still have a huge city, where people like us live. Leaving this place, we rode first along the river downstream, then along the steppe, then drove into a big city standing on a big river, then turned north and then drove home.
                Draw me a map of these places according to my description. I didn’t lie a word, I simply encrypted or rewrote some names and names as if I had heard them only once a few years ago.

                Draw a map. smile
                1. Bar2 20 January 2020 06: 36 New
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                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  Draw a map.

                  yeah, what’s called look for a fool.
                  I thought you had some good arguments against the cards that I use, and you came up with "draw me a map."
                  I will not go down to such a level.
                  1. Trilobite Master 20 January 2020 11: 18 New
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                    Quote: Bar2
                    weighty arguments

                    The "weighty arguments" are that the vast majority of these maps, especially those compiled before the middle of the XNUMXth century, are compiled from the stories of travelers, and therefore they abound in errors, including in the field of toponymy. It simply could not be otherwise, especially when transferring geographical names from one language to another. This is what you must understand.
                    When you are trying to prove something to someone, you make a targeted selection of facts that are easier for you to interpret in support of your own fabrications, and then twist them as you like, customizing them to your own concepts. With such methods with the same success it is possible to prove completely opposite points, the only question is what exactly do you want to prove. That the Slavs were blacks - please. There are many portraits of noble white gentlemen with the negroes depicted on them. I affirm that, in fact, these negroes are the true representatives of the Russian people, in fact, there were most of them in Russia. Just the vile Romanovs or whoever it was, forbade them to be depicted, and paintings from ancient times, where the Russians were depicted exclusively black, were all seized, destroyed or falsified. How many paintings should you give to prove this thesis - five, seven, fifteen? I assure you, I will find them. There will be blacks at all. And I will declare each such find - with the image of a black man - the next proof of my theory, sucking up details on specialized resources with fanfare and fanfare. Everything is falsified, everything is cleaned up and destroyed, but the truth is here. True Russians are blacks.
                    Your "evidence" is no better. You, like your guru, purposefully seek out facts that are suitable for your constructions, ruthlessly discarding everything else and solely on their basis make your crazy conclusions.
                    1. Bar2 20 January 2020 12: 07 New
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                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      that the vast majority of these maps, especially those compiled before the middle of the XNUMXth century, were compiled from the stories of travelers, and therefore they abound in errors, including in the field of toponymy. It simply could not be otherwise, especially when transferring geographical names from one language to another. This is what you must understand.


                      no, not right.
                      consider one and the most important argument / name / toponym is Great Tartaria.

                      The appearance of Tartaria on foreign maps was earlier than Abram Ortelius in his famous atlas of 1570. Then, until the middle of the 19th century, probably a hundred cartographers always described Tartaria in its place.
                      A hundred cartographers for the period 16-17-18-19 centuries could not be mistaken and always use the opinions of others.
                      Such travelers as Plano Carpini's "Journey to the Tartars", Rubruk, who traveled to the Mongol Tatars in the 13th century. Abulgachi Bayadur Khan, who generally described in detail the tartar and the great state of Tartaria.
                      In Britannic 1774, Tartaria is represented with its vast territory and capitals.
                      In the Spanish Encyclopedia of the mid 18th century. it is said about Tartaria, namely, as a state with capitals.
                      Already in the 19th century there were tables of sea flags where the flags of Tartaria existed.
                      On maps, including the 19th century. there were descriptions of countries, including Tartaria with its capitals always being described.

                      In short, there is a huge layer of documents where this state existed, but for some reason this state is not visible to you and your supporters.
                      This is not just the selectivity of your school of history — it is already worse, your actions are false and fall under the ideological behavior of people on the other side of the barricade, that is, enemies of reality who invented their reality and plunged into it forever.
                      Since the word Tartaria is an incomprehensible word for the Russian ear, I made the assumption that Tartaria is Dardaria or the great Darius. Well, Darius is quite Russian. But Darius is simply not measured around the world.

                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      There are many portraits of noble white gentlemen with the negroes depicted on them. I affirm that, in fact, these negroes are the true representatives of the Russian people, in fact, there were most of them in Russia.


                      you can say anything, but there were no blacks in Russia, and now there are 100 million Russians who are not like blacks and who could not have come from blacks to the contrary. So your brains / insanities are simply worthless tricks, but in fact, Russian just nonsense.
                      1. Trilobite Master 20 January 2020 12: 53 New
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                        Quote: Bar2
                        Russian just nonsense.

                        Just like yours, no more, no less. It’s just that my “theory” will not fall into so many fools as Fomenko’s theory has come in, because hardly anyone wants to be a black man. A descendant of the great Slavs - rulers of the world - to be much more pleasant. wassat
                        But in essence, the evidence of both the one and the other - of the New Year’s and mine - is equally weighty, based on the same methods of proof.
                        Do you want more arguments?
                        The first one. In the language of the ancient Aryans, "rosia" means "land of black people."
                        The second one. The Russians’s skin is now lighter because in 1682 Halley’s comet flew over Russia, and its radiation, as everyone knows, stops the activity of the gene responsible for the production of melanin, and everyone who is in the area of ​​this radiation brightens with skin, hair, and so on. .P. In the third generation, the descendants of the irradiated become white. Academician Nefedov wrote about this in 1889 and one can read the works of Semigrobov, which he completed in 1922 in Zurich. In Soviet times, this issue was addressed by the academician, doctor of sciences, professor Syrovatko Aristarkh Semenovich, but his works were classified and are now stored in secret archives. Some fragments of manuscripts were published in 1993 by Vek Publishing House. Look, they are online.
                        The third. In the museum, the estate of Count Teliatiev near Kaluga recently found a picture of the beginning of the XVII century. - something similar to Malevich’s “Black Square”, but instead of the square, the rectangle is called “Tsar Ivan with Tsarina Anna in a dark bedroom.” The painting depicts Tsar Ivan the Terrible with his wife Anna Koltovskaya at the time of the discharge of marital duties. By the way, the original name of Malevich’s painting itself - “The Battle of Russian Warriors in the Cave”, was converted into the “Black Square” by modern historians and art historians in order to hide from us the truth about the blackness of ancient Russians. And in one and the other picture, upon careful examination, you can see black figures on a black background.
                        Refute ... Or think about it - maybe everything was so, but historians are hiding from us?
                      2. AK1972 20 January 2020 13: 43 New
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                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        By the way, the original name of Malevich’s painting itself - “The Battle of Russian Warriors in the Cave”, was converted into the “Black Square” by modern historians and art historians in order to hide from us the truth about the blackness of ancient Russians.

                        And all my life I thought that the picture depicts blacks stealing coal at night. how am I wrong? Michael, thanks! I'll know.
                      3. Bar2 20 January 2020 14: 25 New
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                        nothing to say about tartaria?
                        You can’t answer anything in fact, therefore you are not a scientist, but as a propagandist, patriot you are minus, anywhere and anyone, but not here, I have not forgotten what you recently said, and even the modders support you on this site .
                        Well, the conversation with you is over.
                      4. Trilobite Master 20 January 2020 14: 31 New
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                        Quote: Bar2
                        nothing to say about tartaria?

                        All is said already. I don’t like to repeat myself.
                        Do you essentially have my hypothesis to argue with? No? So that's great. Means
                        Quote: Bar2
                        You cannot answer anything in fact.

                        laughing
                        From now on, we will consider my hypothesis, as it were, an alternative historical concept. On a par with new good news and even better. Good luck. laughing
    2. kalibr 19 January 2020 15: 52 New
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      I already advised a friend to go to Barcelona, ​​there is a chic museum of ancient maps ... That would be a study ...
      1. vladcub 19 January 2020 19: 58 New
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        . V.O., but does Fomenko recognize those cards? Figs knows him, maybe Miller drew those cards byaka?
    3. vladcub 19 January 2020 18: 59 New
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      Mikhail, you laugh: in order to conduct such an analysis, what patience is needed, and this is far from being given to everyone. It is much easier to read more Fomenko, Samsonov or someone else. It’s simple there: the West Slavic goddess of fertility, Genghis Khan twisted the tails of the mares, and the Russians made all the conquests.
      Miller took Lomonosov’s archive to the waste paper, and then forged all the chronicles. How did he not break the navel?
      1. bayard 19 January 2020 23: 35 New
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        Michael, as always, laughs. For laughter, neither patience, nor work in archives, archaeological expeditions, exercises in linguistics, studying proto-languages ​​(Avestan, Sanskrit) ... is not required ... request
        It’s possible with a slight irony to “fool around” and with a smart look to nod at the “authorities”
        Quote: vladcub
        Miller took Lomonosov’s archive to the waste paper, and then forged all the chronicles. How did he not break the navel?

        And you can open Britannica (Great British Encyclopedia), Gallika, or at worst Aksakov’s work - they are written in Russian, though a person spent most of his life in Germany studying archives, made friends with many German professors and academics ... And you can if it’s really interesting, plunge into the study of materials from the archives of European Masonic lodges ... full ... After all, they are stored / stored in Moscow (I don’t know today's fate) as a legitimate trophy after the 2nd World War - “Ananerbo Archive” entirely Soviet Union remaining. In seventeen cars. In 1992, the director of this archive launched a group there ... researchers (let's call them so) to copy ... There was a threat of their loss after Yeltsin’s coup ... Multivolume publications based on these materials were published, entire libraries ... It’s interesting to rummage around.
        But are you interested in neighing and raising Miller’s banners?
        Right ?
        Right .

        And just don’t need to ascribe me to Fomenko (this is what you usually have for hutspe), I don’t know him. I didn’t even read books (I watched several films). I have other books.
        They wanted to acquaint in due time - in the mid-90s, they recommended, as a well-known mathematician ... he then calculated something using astronomical tables (and astronomy, unlike history, science is not just exact, but super-precise). But it did not grow together ... Yes, I was not particularly interested then - I was still young, relatively. But even then he was interested in linguistics and ancient languages ​​- academician G. Grinevich for example. Even then, he drew attention to the fact that Chinese characters are very reminiscent of the ligatures of syllable letters such as traits and cuts. Later this was confirmed in the course of acquaintance with the written sources of the church people.

        So what am I talking about (or else I’ve got distracted), you yourself then take a look at the first edition of Britannica, or Gallica (Great Encyclopedia of Gaul / France), because maps are given there. Those that are currently on the Internet are digitized libraries, now they are in general access - it’s easier to search. And a dictionary to help you. wink
        I do not recommend you to take a shovel, a pickaxe to the archaeological party, it is probably not for you. Faith is enough for adherents of Miller. yes
        And FAITH, like love, is blind. yes
        1. Trilobite Master 20 January 2020 00: 37 New
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          Quote: bayard
          Michael, as always, laughs.

          Not as always. Some time ago, I still had some hopes that some of the Newcomers could prove something. Then he realized that to refute their delusional theses, it takes much more time than to invent them, which he repeatedly proved in practice, and the unshakable faith with which they defend their views leaves no chance for logic.
          in addition, in order to clearly criticize all these pseudo-historical freaks like Fomenko, Klesov, Pyzhikov, Chudinov and others, to bring them numbers, their works need to be studied, and this is time and effort that can be used for something more constructive.
          In order to understand that the dish offered to you is disgusting, just eat one spoon. In order to disassemble it according to the ingredients, you need to eat a sufficient amount. It’s just the same here.
          Grinevich, is this, sorry, not the one who "deciphered" the Etruscan script? If he is, then the sentence is unambiguous - there, in the trash, to Fomenko and Chudinov's comrades.
          So do not make me complain about the lack of something constructive and concrete in my messages addressed to the New Martyrs. I have long-standing accounts with some, but that’s not even the point. Just disassemble each specific nonsense does not make sense. But in general ... I’ll find now I will find Baru2 that he has forgotten ... Well, something like that ...
          1. bayard 20 January 2020 03: 25 New
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            Quote: Trilobite Master
            Grinevich, is this, sorry, not the one who "deciphered" the Etruscan script? If he is, then the sentence is unambiguous - there, in the trash, to Fomenko and Chudinov's comrades.

            And you, I apologize, in what degrees of scientific go?
            Do not you earn money from the president of intergalactic sciences?
            It's me that you
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            there, in the trash

            sent several academicians and doctors of science.
            Of these, some are still academicians in the Soviet Steel Union. And then whoever got the title did not hang.
            And even if the doctor of sciences in nuclear physics (I forgot what your scientific title \ degree \ qualification?) After the collapse of the Union and its industry itself (he developed and created synchrophasotrons for Dubna, etc.), then he took up linguistics issues, then the approach he couldn’t be unscientific, not systemic for this business - for this, it was simply the honor of the SCIENTIST that obliged him. Yes, now he is an academician of several (!) Academies of Sciences, including foreign ones (if memory has not failed, but it should not) and does what he likes - he has the right ... And opportunities. You can relate to his lectures as you like - you won’t be forcibly sweet, but I read some of his written works, including on decoding the Jurchen writings ... Very interesting and professional.
            But you just trampled down with ease unusual according to another academician - G. Grinevich ... You definitely read his work?
            Right?
            Is this your personal opinion about him, or from the Miller training manual?
            But his decryption of the “Phaistos disc” and Etruscan writing then (1987 - 1989 I remember now approximately) thundered all over the world. Many central newspapers wrote about this (!), Even telecasts were ...
            Then the truth, the country did not become, and in the world decided that the Etruscan should remain "unreadable" yes Here it remains for you.
            This is FAITH!
            Blind and jealous. yes
            And unwillingness to learn.

            Why learn, even just honestly look at things and check for inconsistencies. According to the principle: "But are they not fooling me?" , "And if they make a fool, then why?" , and "Who are these someone who is so diligently (and mediocre) fooling around?" and finally: "And what is it - behind the curtain?" .

            So you sent your opponent to a certain museum ... Can I send you too?
            Not far.
            Estonia The Gulf of Finland . Saarema Island (aka Ezel). Saarem Castle.
            Not in the "castle" itself - this is a remake of the 19th century. But this castle stands inside a star fortress. Four-angled. With ravelins. With ditches full of water. Water from the Gulf of Finland with which ditches are connected. The beauty is extraordinary, especially if you look from a quadrocopter or helicopter. Especially in summer .
            The fortress is in excellent condition and although part of its cladding was peeled off (and the “Saarem Castle” itself was built of this facing stone) - what's inside) ... it's even better, because you can see the main material from WHERE it was built. These are huge boulders of granite and basalt of different colors ...
            Here you are, as a member / participant of the yellow HE website in the "History" section, what can you say about this? What's this ?
            This WHO built it on a rocky island ... And when?
            And what?
            How did such boulders toss, turn, and stack? So much so that even after exposing the back part (removing the cladding), they are strong, paladny - a sight for sore eyes. The lining was stripped off (25 percent no more) 200 years ago - when the remodel castle was built.
            And here you are, as an adherent of Miller and a follower of Schlötzer, with a completely unshadowed eye of a specialist and FAITH in official history, answer:
            - who built it?
            - when?
            - the purpose of this "unusual" (in fact there are many such around the world) object?
            - what tools did you use for this? ... if the volume of materials, the complexity of the work and the ACCURACY of the geometry is such ... that the Egyptian pyramid was not lying nearby.

            If you are too lazy to drive or it’s unprofitable, I recommend finding their website in Google (just by request of “Saarem Castle”). There are many photos, reviews, and even shooting from a quadrocopter ... Look ... admire ... and answer the questions.
            It’s just interesting that your faith and knowledge will tell you? ...

            PS.
            You have also spoken about Klyosov so arrogantly lol But this is a global value.
            One of the best (in fact - the best) specialists in DNA genealogy - the royal houses and the richest families of the world are in line for him, because his methodology / technology is the most advanced and deepest available at the moment in the world. And yes, he is also the vice president of the world's largest transnational chemical corporation (there are several million people in the staff) ... And this career was made exclusively by the BRAINS of an outstanding biochemist!

            In order to criticize (and even more so to find fault) a genius, academician, or at least a doctor of science, it is equally convenient to correspond in status / degree / qualification.
            It is important .
            Otherwise - frivolously, provocatively and sometimes (even) ... funny.

            Here on the photo is an “Amazon” with a broken arm ... and the armature sticks out of the hand - a metal rod.
            So HOW did he end up there?
            If an ancient ancient master sculpted it from solid stone?
            And what kind of metal is it if it has not rusted into dust for so many centuries (!!!)?
            And didn’t tear up such a wonderfully made statue? How does concrete rusting concrete fittings with modern reinforced concrete products after a hundred years?
            Was it EXACTLY two and a half thousand years ago?
            And was it THAT, as the accomplices of Miller so dear to your heart write?
            Photo a little lower in the comments ... wink
            1. Trilobite Master 20 January 2020 11: 26 New
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              For the reasons that I have already explained to you, I will not go into specifics, such as statues with metal bars, or Livonian locks. If you did not understand this the first time, I can’t help.
              But here it is:
              Quote: bayard
              In order to criticize (and even more so to find fault) a genius, academician, or at least a doctor of science, it is equally convenient to correspond in status / degree / qualification.
              It is important .

              I can’t leave without attention. Nothing that the same doctors, professors and academicians are involved in history, many of whom received their degrees in the USSR? It turns out that you can criticize them, you can accuse them of lies and fraud ...
              Or is it better to let Fomenko do his math, Klesov biochemistry, Chudinov - what did he do there before history? - his own business, and Grinevich - his own ... Maybe, in fact, it will be better?
              1. bayard 20 January 2020 18: 53 New
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                Quote: Trilobite Master
                and Grinevich - his ...

                So G. Grinevich is just an academician in the field of linguistics, he has been doing this all (!!!) life and was an outstanding scientist precisely in this field of science.
                Not ashamed ? no
                Klesov is an outstanding biochemist and a leading world expert in DNA genealogy, he is engaged in this - he analyzes, summarizes the data and draws conclusions. He is in his range of sciences.
                Chudinov - Since the mid-90s, he has been engaged in linguistics and has the degree of DOCTOR of SCIENCES and ACADEMICIAN of several academies in this field.
                These SCIENTISTS are the RECOGNIZED luminaries among their colleagues. NO ONE scientist of rank and qualification is equal to them, does not doubt their competencies. Only holy fools and "scientists" are crooked - losers.
                Are you not one of them?
                I still did not understand your qualifications.
                You personally - how do you make money for bread, that you behave so self-confidently? And it’s okay to boast like that among ordinary citizens, but you “elevated your horn” over the BEST representatives of the scientific world in your field (one of the best). So where do you get so much THIS from? What is the source of such exorbitant pride? Or is all your qualification only in throwing manure on a fan with a shovel?
                Great "scientist" ...
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                For the reasons that I have already explained to you, I will not go into specifics, such as statues with metal bars, or Livonian locks.

                And how do you dare to SO categorically speak out on such a serious topic?
                Without specifics?
                no request
                1. Trilobite Master 20 January 2020 19: 39 New
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                  Grinevich - a geologist.
                  Chudinov is a physicist-philosopher.
                  Fomenko is a mathematician.
                  Klesov is a biochemist.
                  DNA genealogy is not a science, but a scientific discipline within the framework of population genetics. The title of academician of DNA genealogy Klesov appropriated to himself after the establishment of this same academy, which was not accepted by the scientific community.
                  You too can do this - register the Academy of Historical Sciences LLC and designate yourself as its "academician". Define the value of such a title for yourself.
                  None of these authors have ever been published in peer-reviewed scientific journals on history or linguistics, either here or abroad. They promote their anti-scientific opuses solely as part of their own projects.
                  As for me personally, I have already written this here repeatedly, I am a lawyer. My specialty is criminal law, criminal trial and forensics. Even if only because of this, I understand perfectly what is the process of collecting evidence, how is the construction of the evidence base, I am familiar with the concepts of relevance and admissibility of evidence, as well as the need for an objective and impartial approach to the process of cognition.
                  Quote: bayard
                  No specifics

                  I repeat, if you do not understand the first time.
                  Most of the phenomena in which pseudo-scientists poke their adherents with their noses (Fomenko sins this especially), which, allegedly, have no explanation from the side of "official science", are gross forgeries or manipulations. As soon as I started to deal with the next question from the next newcomer, it turned out that science had already given answers to his stupid questions in an exhaustive form for a long time, or the fact itself, which requires explanation, is the result of falsification and (or) manipulation. Just because of the lack of sufficient education in a certain area (in this case, history) and a blind faith in the infallibility of their gurus, the adherents of their teachings do not even try to verify in the most superficial way the information that they are leaked to by fomen and others. But such allegedly inexplicable from the point of view of science facts these fomen can spew simply on an industrial scale.
                  What do you think will take more time - to spoil the carpet or to remove what someone has spoiled? You insist that I go about cleaning up what someone (in this case, you) is shitting. Dismiss I have already raked enough of this product to understand that you will produce it faster than I clean. Therefore, I simply designate a bunch of pseudo-historical feces with hangers so that others do not come.
                  1. bayard 20 January 2020 20: 22 New
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                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    I'm a lawyer.

                    Already more specific.
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    Just because of the lack of sufficient education in a certain area (in this case, history)

                    Great .
                    The rest can not be read.
                    It’s really better for you to go about your business in which you are a specialist and do not scatter evaluative opinions in which you, “due to lack of sufficient education”, are not a specialist.
                    With best wishes for this. hi
                  2. Trilobite Master 20 January 2020 20: 52 New
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                    Quote: bayard
                    better go about your business

                    I agree. And everyone, both lawyers and biochemists with mathematicians. And while they broadcast, I have the moral right to do the same.
                    Good luck.
      2. Undecim 20 January 2020 03: 26 New
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        "Ananerbo Archive" entirely inherited by the Soviet Union In seventeen cars
        At twenty five. The last figure is twenty-five cars. But it’s not clear, why did they hide in Antarctica that some German scientists sold the Americans, that scientists like Achim Leube (may have heard of this) are still studying and international conferences are being collected?
        So what you say is folding, you are rolling out the Miller’s followers, but yourself, being an adherent of “scientists” like a cooperator and a fighter with Platonov’s Zhidzhemon conspiracy, you are pretty tricky.
        Multivolume publications based on these materials have been published, entire libraries ...
        Can you give examples of these multi-volume editions?
        Or again refer to Platonov? Oh, you can believe him, of course, not Miller is there.
        1. bayard 20 January 2020 04: 17 New
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          Quote: Undecim
          At twenty five. The last figure is twenty-five cars.

          I was not interested in the "last digits." I talked with people who worked in this archive. And taking copies of them in 1992.
          And with Oleg Anatolyevich, too.
          As with a number of other participants in those events (two-week emergency work on copying documents).
          And I was also offered to take part in the work on those documents ... but it did not grow together ... for life's sake.
          Quote: Undecim
          But it’s not clear why they hid it in Antarctica.

          I didn’t swim there, ask others.
          Quote: Undecim
          Achim leube

          Joachim Leibe? No, I have not heard. Now many write. And conferences are being gathered. If part of the archives went to them ... but only part. And not the actual archives of Masonic lodges ... However, they could have redeemed from Yeltsin ... but then they certainly would not have published it - the lodges themselves had redeemed.
          Quote: Undecim
          but themselves, being an adherent of the "scientists"

          Well, why the "adept"? It’s just that I was familiar with some of them, had mutual friends ... but I didn’t become a comrade-in-arms, although they invited me ... probably in vain - no one has yet disclosed my topic ... sorry, I was hoping. But now others are digging even deeper, I will observe the young.
          Quote: Undecim
          Can you give examples of these multi-volume editions?

          Of course .
          Quote: Undecim
          Or again refer to Platonov?

          And on him, of course. He published many materials without any author’s text. He has fifty books.
          But you don’t need it?
          Right ?
          And I will refer to Vorobyevsky - he simply in his books simply copies of those documents often leads.
          But you are of another faith?
          You are not allowed !
          Or maybe not. request
          Quote: Undecim
          Jewish Masonic

          What an interesting spelling ...
          I was also familiar with the first "Master of the Great Provincial Lodge of Russia of the Regular Freemasonry of the Scottish Rite" ... for a long time it was ... And then I read his wife's revealing book - interesting ... She is a famous documentary filmmaker in the past ... Book, By the way, under the editorship of Vorobyovskiy came out.
          Quote: Undecim
          So it’s folding, you’re telling, folding of Miller’s followers

          No, it’s from boredom ... Yes, they have been rolled out for a long time - you won’t collect it. lol
          1. Undecim 20 January 2020 08: 15 New
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            But you are of another faith?
            I have no other faith; I, with my own head, maintain friendly, trusting relationships. Therefore, she reciprocates me and tells me that I was mistaken and you’re cheating not pretty, but very pretty.
            It’s more or less clear with you - there are a lot of such “storytellers” in the network. On occasion, send greetings to Andrei Vladimirovich and Elena Nenokovna, which is
            "Mason from Solntsevsky" and "famous documentary filmmaker."
            1. bayard 20 January 2020 09: 50 New
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              Quote: Undecim
              . On occasion, send greetings to Andrei Vladimirovich and Elena Nenokovna, which is
              "Mason from Solntsevsky" and "famous documentary filmmaker."

              It will not be possible to convey, I say - it has been a long time. Mid 90s. Yes, and I did not know his status during the meeting, although I met near their headquarters in front of the American embassy, ​​a friend introduced us, and he invited us (with a friend) to a meeting in Yakhroma (Krasnaya Polyana, two-week gatherings to Kupala) ... A funny place and sight - the Scientologists, the white brotherhood, the Roerichs, the shamans are different, the student of the lamas from Tibet ... damn shorter ... But it was informative. He was there like a moderator.
              And I met Oleg Anatolyevich much later - in 2005, and with Klykov ... at the evening of O. Platonov with the presentation of the new book "After the victory of the Slavophiles" - the work of Sharapov edited by O. Platonov ... Then, by the way, it was decided to create the "Economic Society named after Sharapov." And they wanted to introduce us back in 1997, but then it did not grow together, according to the circumstances.

              To be friends with the head is good, it is useful.
              It’s better not to touch some at all - a friend’s head will only say thank you. Such topics are for everybody.
              I say - boring ...
      3. vladcub 20 January 2020 19: 22 New
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        Bayard, 1) I was in school in one thousand shaggy year, I studied German (now almost forgot) and I could not read English or French
        2) that the “Anerbe archive” is in Moscow for me news. To whom it’s, but for me Aneerbe "and Hitler are synonyms, but with Hitler we have different roads
        1. bayard 20 January 2020 20: 34 New
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          That archive is interesting in that it collected ancient books, manuscripts, artifacts, as well as complete archives of all Masonic lodges in Europe, then available to the Nazis. It is the archives. With personal files of members, financial statements, compromising materials, correspondence, directives, circulars. In short, everything that is stored in the archives. This greatly helped foreign intelligence to recruit those who were then in power ... While those who were involved there were alive and active, they were of interest.
          When I also found out, I was surprised, but not for long. War, trophies, winner's right ... and Stalin's smart intelligence.
          Quote: vladcub
          I was in school in one thousand shaggy year, I studied German (now almost forgot) and I could not read English or French

          Look at least maps, to translate the names of toponyms you can do with a dictionary. And they are not read very difficult.
          hi
          And yes, with Hitler and his ideology, our roads are no doubt different. We are here from his followers and spiritual children for the sixth year we are holding the front. (Donbass).
    4. Trilobite Master 20 January 2020 00: 51 New
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      Quote: vladcub
      Michael, you are laughing

      Why, in order for me to write an article, do I need to shovel a bunch of material, comprehend it, organize, generalize and only then take up writing? I do not demand from Bar2 the impossible - the work that I proposed to him to do can be done in a few weeks, you just need to take it. Moreover, the topic is close and interesting to him. Go ahead, recruit material, study, summarize, write. But you can’t agree on the one who did this before you or tie a broom. That's all.
      Our Novokhronolazs cannot understand in any way that using their tools you can prove anything, including the theses that are absolutely opposite to what they advocate, which means their methods are vicious and have nothing to do with science.
  • Bar2 20 January 2020 07: 05 New
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    So, according to the maps available and the toponyms existing there, it can be summarized that these Greeks are highland mountaineers just some local Slavic tribes, especially Arta / Horde, Tripolitsa, Metelin, which is clearly not according to Greek writing rules.

    I will add here more maps from the atlas of the archipelago of Ivan Golenishchev-Kutuzov 1798.


    That is the name of the archipelago (good word) adjacent to the Balkan Peninsula and Asia Minor.

    official etymology.
    Comes from the Italian arcipelago "Aegean Sea" from the Greek άρχι + πέλαγος.
    Etymology of the word archipelago
    en.wiktionary.org ›archipelago


    So these same "ancient" Pelasgians
    According to the description of Strabo, “many centuries before the formation of the states of Greece and Rome, P. settled Thrace, Asia Minor, Palestine, Greece, Macedonia, the island of Crete, Italy, all the islands of the Aegean Sea, Sicily and other territories.

    Moreysky Peninsula and Thessaly were called Pelazgia (Relazgia).

    Herodotus emphasized that "the Athenians descend from the Pelazgs."

    In the opinion of Strabo and Dionysus Galikarnaski, the name P. (translated from ancient Greek - storks, cranes) given for the fact that they massively and cohesively traveled long distances, was missing their residence.

    D. Halikarnassky claimed that P. settled Italy "five centuries before the Trojan War."


    I can’t refer to the academic publication, I take my word for it that the Pelasgians really were mentioned by Herodotus, Pausanias, Gellanik and others.

    My etymology
    -archipellag-archi / senior _pellag-apparently so named from the Pelasgians / cranes i.e. Slavs who always lived in these places where the state of Greece is now located.
    or
    -archipelago-a / anti_rhea / RS_i _pelag / Pelasgians / Slavs
    those. it is an absolutely artificial word made from the word of denial and the name of the Slavs of the Pelasgians living in these places.



    you must immediately pay attention to the dating of the cards, they are very noticeable, namely, the oldest (thousandth) digit is missing in the dating, how can this be? Ink saved? Here you can only find confirmation of the theory of Fomenko and Nosovsky, who accuse official historical science of lying and distorting real chronology and history.





    on the Bosphorus and Sea of ​​Marmara we see such names
    -Yuseyu Dar is exactly the place where the grave of Yusha is located, FiN says this.
    Isle of Ross. How do you understand this? The map was not made from a Latin map or Italian, which means that the interpretation of this word can be understood quite directly from the text of the Russian Islands.



    -Cape Yanycharsky
    -Mys Troy is exactly so with _y_ at the end. Considering that this card was issued at the end of the 18th century and before the “discovery” of the “antique” Troy by the shrewd and thief Schliemann was less than a hundred years old, it’s very easy for Schliemann to find antique Troy considering that the cards were quite available. Illiada herself with Odysseus at the same time appeared.




    -Island Metelin, that’s how the current island of Lesbos was called then in a Russian wave.



    further fuel rebooted
    Modern place names in the state of Greece have already been changed.
    We understand the word archipelago in a different way, there are no Russian names, but what remains is already included in the modern version of history.
    Here you can add that the Russians and Turks called their seas Black and White / Ak-Deniz (Mediterranean). The Sea of ​​Marmara-Marmara may have had a different meaning.
  • Bar2 21 January 2020 10: 58 New
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    Of the thirteen material minuses that materialized in my report, only one Trilobite showed their shadow, and even then it does not answer in terms of content, but simply against the feeling of contradiction. The rest cannot even formulate their claims i.e. denial at the subconscious level. It’s ridiculous to watch how this whole company puts pluses to each other, says the same words to each other “excellent article, thank you” and does not tolerate criticism of their mossy ideas, and the emergence of new facts is simply hushed up and do not pay attention to them. Such a local small town on the forum.
    The fact that this company answers only new facts, such as Bergere’s paintings, maps of medieval cartographers, is "... these artists did not see the objects of their description themselves, and the cartographers simply invented places, names and toponyms," while forgetting that their own the base is also built on the same stories and facts by the same chroniclers and the same medieval artists, with the exception of one, that only the most suitable ones are selected from a pile of facts to describe a particular era.
    For example, do not consider the facts about the fact that
    - The "ancient" Pompeii was a medieval city, this is the work of the historian Andreas Churilov.
    - The "ancient" Etruscans have long been deciphered in the 19th century.
    Tutankhamun’s tomb has signs of a frank remake, for example, frescoes are artificially aged, and among the finds there is an iron dagger that could not be in this era of Tutankhamun by the definition of the Bronze Age.
    Mongol-Tatar igo has overgrown with such a burden of contradictions and all attempts by academic science and its adherents to explain this raise only more contradictions and questions. Then the silence method is turned on, they are simply proudly silent, put down minuses or simply turn on the defamation process i.e. they say nasty things off topic, but turning to the individual.
    - many medieval sources, like Mavro Orbini, Pavel Alepsky, Abulgachi Bayadurkhan, Vinsheim (Geography), Volansky, are simply excluded from the consideration of history, because they completely do not correspond to this version of the story. Others, like Marco Polo, are simply shamelessly corrected and, worst of all, the Russian edition Marco Polo. Here honesty and does not smell.
    But from the article into the article one and the same "ancient Greeks and Romans" is poured, the Mongol invasion of Russia, just a swamp, some kind.
  • VLR
    VLR 19 January 2020 07: 54 New
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    I read it with pleasure. Regarding Alexander, he was mentioned that the Ephesians in his proposal did not like the fact that he wanted to put a memorial sign: the temple was restored to him, Alexander the Great, money.
    And the Greeks, in fact, considered him a barbarian, although he spoke Greek, but he was only half Hellenic - by his mother. Alexander complexed about this and really did not like it when reminded. It was a statement of this fact at the feast that became fatal for the philosopher Kallisfen, who said: Alexander, not being a Hellenic, destroyed the Hellenic city of Thebes (it is possible for Hellenes, half-breeds!)
    1. kalibr 19 January 2020 08: 13 New
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      Glad you liked Valery.
      1. Ingvar 72 19 January 2020 14: 29 New
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        Vyacheslav, where does the name of the sculpture "Wounded Amazon" come from? After all, there is an opinion that the Amazons burned one breast, and this one is all right.
        1. kalibr 19 January 2020 15: 49 New
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          Igor! Well, how do I know? It says "Wounded Amazon" ... And about the chest ... this is nonsense. Onions can be pulled to the chest in European fashion, in the east can be pulled sideways and in both cases the tits do not interfere. Checked !!!
          1. Undecim 19 January 2020 20: 47 New
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            Igor! Well, how do I know? It says "Wounded Amazon" ...
            But what about your maxim: "The story is remarkable in that it can afford a presentation of material based on information from ancestors."
            Ancestors in the person of Pliny the Elder report that the Amazons sculptures for the temple of Artemis in Ephesus were selected on the basis of a “creative competition” between five outstanding masters of that time: Polyclitus, Phidias, Kresil, Kidon (a mysterious character, possibly Kresil and Kidon - the same person and Pliny made a mistake) and Pradmon. According to Pliny U, the Amazons were portrayed as wounded, but did not report any details.
            Three out of five came to us in Roman copies, but only the Amazonian Phidias is unambiguously identified by scientists.

            The wound of the Amazon is the subject of a separate study. It is assumed that she was wounded on the right side to the side or neck, so her right arm is raised.
            Therefore, all the sculptures, where the Amazons, with a characteristic gesture raise their right hand and touch the head, are called wounded. Further, depending on the characteristics, there are types (Mattei, Skiarra, Sosikla, etc.)
            1. kalibr 19 January 2020 22: 24 New
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              Quote: Undecim
              What about your maxim

              I do not have to know everything in the world. Well, no obligation.
              1. Undecim 19 January 2020 22: 41 New
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                I do not have to know everything in the world. Well, no obligation.
                Here the ancestors are on your side, Vyacheslav Olegovich. Quint Horace Flaccus and said: "It is impossible to know everything."
            2. vladcub 20 January 2020 18: 24 New
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              V. N, and yesterday wondered: will your addition or not?
              I'm used to having interesting additions and now I'm looking for
    2. pmkemcity 19 January 2020 13: 35 New
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      [quoteephers in his sentence did not like] [/ quote]
      These are not Ephesians, but some Ephesians!
    3. G. Petrovich 20 January 2020 16: 43 New
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      [quote] [/ quote] And the Greeks really considered him a barbarian, although he spoke Greek, but he was only half Hellenic - by his mother.
      According to his father, Alexander believed that his family tree comes from Heracles himself, from the Argo kings (Argos in the Pelopones). Long before Alexander the Great, his ancestor Alexander Ι took part in the 505 Olympic Games, at which only the Greeks had the right to speak. Herodotus writes about this in his “History”: “And the fact that these Macedonian kings, descendants of Perdikka are valid Hellenes, is confirmed not only by themselves, but I am convinced of this. In addition, the judges of the Olympic competitions recognized this. When Alexander (Ι) He wished to take part in the competition and for this he arrived in Olympia, then the Hellenes, the participants of the competition, demanded his exclusion. These competitions, they said, were for the Hellenes and not for the barbarians. Alexander proved that he was an Argos, and the judges admitted its Hellenic origin. "- Herodotus History, book 5 of Terpsichore, paragraph 22.
      1. vladcub 20 January 2020 18: 28 New
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        This is news to me. thank
  • Olgovich 19 January 2020 08: 27 New
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    What a beauty, what a developed Greek civilization!

    And her remains were literally carved a hundred years ago, in the same Smyrna mentioned in the article ...
    And now the Turks show the world the achievements of the -Neutrian civilization.

    It is good that Ephesus was hidden by the sands for centuries, otherwise the barbarians would have turned it into a quarry, as they acted everywhere, including and in Russia ...

    Thanks to the author for an interesting article hi
    1. Olgovich 19 January 2020 10: 48 New
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      I congratulate all Orthodox citizens on Baptism of the Lord, Epiphany! hi
      1. vladcub 19 January 2020 20: 14 New
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        Olgovich, thank you for your congratulations, but let me correct you a little: with the Baptism of the Lord, everyone who cares about our culture and history.
        I know one Estonian, she considers herself a Catholic, but she always dives into Epiphany, and the temperature is different at Epiphany. Here I am Orthodox, and not diving.
        My teacher of history, Muslims, but he knew and loved Christian customs
  • svp67 19 January 2020 08: 35 New
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    Interesting. Such a masterpiece can only be created by a society capable of feeding the great masters and architects, and most importantly requiring beauty. And here it is interesting, but what happened before? What masterpieces were in the same Persia, which was still equal to barbarian Greece
    1. kalibr 19 January 2020 10: 26 New
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      Quote: svp67
      And here it is interesting, but what happened before? What masterpieces were in the same Persia, which was still equal to barbarian Greece

      Will be!
  • Engineer 19 January 2020 08: 56 New
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    The article recalled the unfinished business - visit the Ephesus Museum in Vienna. During the visit it was closed for some reason. I’m generally “lucky” for it, then all Leonardo from the Vatican will be removed for reconstruction, then something else
    The museum itself is located in a very interesting place: if you face the Hoffburg Palace, then on the right there will be a small square of Maria Theresa on both sides of which are the twin palaces. In one museum of natural history and something else. In the second, a whole series of interesting things: besides the Ephesus Museum there is a Kunstkamera, the real non-St. Petersburg frichestvo. There is also an Egyptian hall. On the third floor there was a pleasant surprise several halls dedicated to the landing of troops of the Holy Roman Empire in Tunisia in 1535, including a series of comic tapestries of the 16th century detailing the events of the operation. But rather, it was probably a temporary exhibition.
    For the second day in Vienna, this building is optimal for visiting (what to do in Vienna on the first day readers of Vyacheslav already know laughing )
    1. 3x3zsave 19 January 2020 09: 18 New
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      not St. Petersburg frichestvo.
      Denis, I understand that with our “culture” we sometimes look like arrogant snobs, but being people smart enough (at least most of those I know), with a certain degree of humor we treat all kinds of “cultural palmyrism” and are not worthy of a high rank " freaks. "
      1. Engineer 19 January 2020 09: 31 New
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        Anton, my term frritism refers only to the St. Petersburg Kunstkamera. All.
        In the case of this Kunstkamera, the original idea was distorted and mocked. Moreover, now this word in the minds of the Russian layman is firmly associated with mutants of all stripes. Maybe it's just my bzik
        Just when you show this (from Vienna’s bushcam, by the way)

        People say: "And what, is it displayed in the Kunstkamera?"
        1. Undecim 19 January 2020 10: 30 New
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          In the case of this Kunstkamera, the original idea was distorted and mocked.
          And what was the "initial idea" that was taken away?
          1. Engineer 19 January 2020 10: 48 New
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            Well, you are such a formalist). As if any logically dubious post is a challenge to you.
            1. Undecim 19 January 2020 11: 08 New
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              Why do you show curiosity causes such a reaction. I was wondering what was the original idea, which, in your opinion, was abused.
              1. Engineer 19 January 2020 11: 17 New
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                The Kunstkamera in its original form is a collection of rarities and wonders, while what kind of rarities were not specified. In addition to the anatomical section, the St. Petersburg Kunstkamera contains expositions devoted to the life of "exotic" regions such as Japan and Indonesia. Thus, the museum in St. Petersburg is fully consistent with the idea of ​​the Kunstkamera. In modern Russian mass culture, the word Kunstkamera is equal to a freak show precisely because of the anatomical section, but the organizers of the museum are undoubtedly not responsible for such a one-sided perception of the museum collection. In my post, in addition to stating the mass aspect, there was an emotional judgment, and not an attempt at an objective assessment.
                That's better?
                1. Undecim 19 January 2020 11: 53 New
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                  Thanks, okay. Although you have a peculiar association.
                  By the way, in Vienna a similar pathoanatomical exposition is in the hospital for the mentally ill. Imagine. What associations can occur among Austrian inhabitants?
                  1. Engineer 19 January 2020 11: 57 New
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                    To some extent logical. Deviations to deviations
        2. vladcub 19 January 2020 20: 38 New
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          Actually, the Kunst chamber is an art room, but by the time of Peter the Great there was no division into: fine art, palenology, etc. So Petrovskaya Kunst camera - a collection of various wonders
      2. Catfish 19 January 2020 12: 23 New
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        "Stone, pines, Leningrad forest,
        I got lost and got wet in the swamp,
        And as if a native breeze
        Pulled from the back by a wreck. "(C) drinks

        Anton, hello and a deep bow to everyone. smile
        1. 3x3zsave 19 January 2020 19: 10 New
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          "I'm back in the village. I go hunting,
          I write my verses ... Life is easy.
          Yesterday, tired of walking in the swamp,
          I wandered into the barn and fell asleep deeply. "(C)
          1. bubalik 19 January 2020 19: 18 New
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            Good in the village in summer,
            Dung sticks to pins (s) laughing
            1. Catfish 19 January 2020 19: 25 New
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              "And unclean chimney sweeps shame and shame!" (FROM). laughing
              1. 3x3zsave 19 January 2020 19: 32 New
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                "Man, are you tyrannizing a little animal again? Give it to me for a jacket with pockets." (FROM)
                1. Catfish 19 January 2020 19: 49 New
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                  "- What is this jacket doing here?
                  - But sir, he pays royally ... "(C)
                  1. 3x3zsave 19 January 2020 19: 56 New
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                    "Meet Alice, this is pudding!
                    Pudding, this is Alice! "(C)
            2. 3x3zsave 19 January 2020 19: 25 New
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              "Ah, these yellow shoes!
              They walk on the asphalt. "(C)
              1. bubalik 19 January 2020 19: 32 New
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                And he wears a hat in panama,
                Shoes, he wears a nariman.
                (C)
                1. 3x3zsave 19 January 2020 19: 50 New
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                  "The trouble with the boots,
                  In the spring, I’m completely worn out,
                  They would have pulled themselves
                  So I wouldn’t kill them in vain "(C)
                  1. Catfish 19 January 2020 20: 08 New
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                    "I wander through the swamp, check the mushroom places,
                    I will lower my soul to bask in the stars
                    Yes, in conscience, you need to fix the cop grave,
                    That spring scared me with a shot in the air.
                    The trouble with the boots ... "(C)
                    1. 3x3zsave 19 January 2020 20: 14 New
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                      The question arose, Konstantin. Now google or remember the text from the 94th? recourse
                      1. Catfish 19 January 2020 20: 20 New
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                        No, one of Colonel's favorite songs. First encountered in the ancient fashion for STALKER, found on the Internet and uploaded everything to myself.

                        "The convoy is knocking again, they again shoot those who don’t go,
                        Smolny Institute is filled again, but who will ask? They’ll answer - it’s not rowing. "
                      2. 3x3zsave 19 January 2020 20: 29 New
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                        "Ah, you are the fate of the ship,
                        You say: "Ply!
                        They will answer, "(C)
                      3. Catfish 19 January 2020 20: 37 New
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                        "And ours, swinging, the ships will leave,
                        No one, saying goodbye, waves from the ground ... "(C)
                      4. 3x3zsave 19 January 2020 20: 46 New
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                        "Ah, the white ship,
                        Buzzer disturbing bass "(C)
        2. Catfish 19 January 2020 19: 44 New
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          "And only dust, dust, dust from walking boots,
          And there is no rest for the soldier. "(C)
    2. Catfish 19 January 2020 19: 27 New
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      "There, across the river, the girls sing,
      They don’t let the good fellow fall asleep. "(C) request
      1. 3x3zsave 19 January 2020 19: 35 New
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        "Dream to me - yellow lights,
        And I wheeze in a dream "(C)
        1. Catfish 19 January 2020 19: 47 New
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          “But even in the morning it's not like that - there’s no fun
          Or smoke on an empty stomach, or drink with a hangover. "(C)
          1. 3x3zsave 19 January 2020 19: 53 New
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            "We are greeted by morning,
            Brass knuckles and "Red Dawn" "
          2. bubalik 19 January 2020 19: 54 New
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            My face in the early morning is not mine. What happened, I do not remember. Was it with me yesterday? The jacket is torn a little, at the entrance Seryozha is sleeping. It seems that he went over a little and fell down until the morning.(C) belay
            1. Catfish 19 January 2020 20: 13 New
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              "He got up early this morning - no Luis Carvalan,
              Here she is, here she is - the junta has worked! "(C)
            2. 3x3zsave 19 January 2020 20: 19 New
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              "To say it our way, we drank a little,
              Tell me, Serge!
              And if you drive vodka not from sawdust,
              What would we have with five bottles? "(C)
              1. Korsar4 19 January 2020 20: 23 New
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                "Just came Seryozha.
                We played a little "(c).
              2. bubalik 19 January 2020 20: 28 New
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                Jokes of Anton, a strange thing request
                It seems funny, but it seems not. tongue drinks
                1. 3x3zsave 19 January 2020 20: 40 New
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                  You know, ashamed when you can’t see,
                  What I heard is not what I listened to "(c)
                  Most often I want to cry.
  • mr.ZinGer 19 January 2020 10: 05 New
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    what to do in Vienna on the first day readers of Vyacheslav already know
    Are you talking about the army museum?laughing
    1. Engineer 19 January 2020 10: 13 New
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      How bad you think of me). Or just rarely go to the historical section.

      Are you talking about the army museum?

      Imperial Armory to avoid controversy
      There is also the Habsburg treasury. Also in Hoffburg. A visit is required.
      There are no tickets at the Vienna Opera for two months (at least for May). It was specifically for my dates that the Barber of Seville was walking and something modern, so insignificant that I already forgot. Instead, on the evening of the second day, I watched their version of the musical "Vampire Ball" in Ronaer. In any case, opera is an evening entertainment.
      1. mr.ZinGer 19 January 2020 10: 35 New
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        Why I think badly, just a logical chain was based on the subject of the site. I didn’t get into the armory; three days in Vienna are insanely short. And from what they saw struck Flakturm.
        1. Engineer 19 January 2020 10: 44 New
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          Your original post was about opera. Then they corrected me, my own, too, but unsuccessfully, and now it's too late. So my answer looks like porridge)
          It was just three days in Vienna. Naturally enough only half the center. Belvedere was closed. But overall a very solid impression remained. Rome for some reason didn’t enter
          1. mr.ZinGer 19 January 2020 10: 53 New
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            In my opinion, the temporary "smearing" of Rome interferes with this perception. And at the expense of Vienna I agree with you. I recalled an old joke about a Jew who constantly left the USSR for Israel and from Israel to the USSR. To the question of why he was doing this, the answer was: "It’s shitty, and it’s shitty there, but the transplant is in Vienna."
            1. Engineer 19 January 2020 10: 56 New
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              Rome is a sad and thoughtful impression. Especially after the Palantine. Everything was packed to the eye with temples and palaces. And now the fragments are literally
              Well, from the point of view of garbage, Rome is a garbage can. Tiber embankment for sure. It's just some shame
              1. kalibr 19 January 2020 13: 13 New
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                Denis! But then ... Were you there in the heat of summer? Our tourists are almost naked, crawling like flies. And Italians from offices and ministries ... how they rushed for lunch - in suits, a woman in tights (or stockings). And it’s not hot for them! What a sight!
                1. Engineer 19 January 2020 13: 23 New
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                  In October was.
                  Corporate identity Rome style - a row of large, dirty, garbage containers bins directly on the road. The part is crowded and rubbish is lying nearby. All this starts in 200-300 meters from the Vatican. I remember the aunt-saleswoman from the center smoking a cigarette on the street and shooting a cigarette butt on the roadway. She probably didn’t know that she was one of the neat Europeans who relied on reverently to the garbage problem. The embankment of the Tiber in the lower part (whoever knew that there are two levels — the upper one at the level of roads and bridges and the lower one at the coastline) is cluttered to the edge. Mountains of garbage seemingly purposefully throwing down the stairs. Tiber muddy puddle. You can see the inverted rusted hulls of the vessels. No one is cleaning. Budapest can give a master class of cleanliness. I am silent about Moscow, Vienna and Munich.
                  In general, I expected to see the world capital, and I saw a deeply provincial Razdolbay city with a rich cultural and historical heritage.
                  1. kalibr 19 January 2020 15: 45 New
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                    Quote: Engineer
                    and I saw a deeply provincial Razdolby city with a rich cultural and historical heritage.

                    That's it!
  • kalibr 19 January 2020 18: 27 New
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    Here in this museum - Natural sciences - also
    very interesting!
  • Korsar4 19 January 2020 08: 57 New
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    Interesting. The capital of the Corinthian column is good, although not all the details of the acanthus soft leaves that served as a model for the sculptors are depicted.
  • 3x3zsave 19 January 2020 09: 19 New
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    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
  • Free wind 19 January 2020 09: 46 New
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    Today is Baptism !!!!!!! You were banned by the Tudyrovs. or putinuv. ????
  • mr.ZinGer 19 January 2020 09: 48 New
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    Everything as usual. In detail and thoroughly.
  • Undecim 19 January 2020 11: 32 New
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    Something like a "reporting from the scene", in my opinion.

    Estimated view of the temple of Artemis.
    1. Undecim 19 January 2020 11: 33 New
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      And this is what you can see today.
      1. vladcub 22 January 2020 11: 32 New
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        Report of our special correspondent
  • Krasnoyarsk 19 January 2020 11: 46 New
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    Photo with the inscription - "Resting warrior"
    What indicates that this is a warrior?
    = The news of the death of the temple shocked all of Greece. =
    Yes, yes, marches and rallies took place throughout Greece. This was reported to the author by the media from those distant times.
    = Began collecting donations to create a new temple, even more beautiful. =
    Why didn't the author tell who was the first to cry for fundraising?
    = The construction was entrusted to the architect Heirocrates, who began by turning the remaining pile of ruins into his new foundation. They were leveled, tamped and overlaid =
    But before that, the author told us that marble under the influence of fire (temperature) turned into lime, which means collapseThen what pile of ruins are we talking about?
    The article, as always with Shpakovsky, is a near-historical work of art.
    1. mr.ZinGer 19 January 2020 12: 03 New
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      [/ i] The construction was entrusted to the architect Heirocrates, who began by turning the remaining pile of ruins into his new foundation. They were leveled, tamped and overlaid =
      But before that, the author told us that marble under the influence of fire (temperature) turned into lime, which means it will collapse, then what kind of ruins are we talking about? [I]

      I do not see any contradictions, you believe that after the fire the ashes were a flat area, with a thick layer of chalk.
      1. Krasnoyarsk 19 January 2020 12: 42 New
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        Quote: mr.ZinGer

        I do not see any contradictions, you believe that after the fire the ashes were a flat area, with a thick layer of chalk.

        No, I believe that the word "ruins" cannot be used if there was a place to be "lime" into which marble turned.
      2. kalibr 19 January 2020 13: 06 New
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        Even the individual statues were preserved, the base of the columns, stairs, so there was much to make a foundation of.
        1. Krasnoyarsk 19 January 2020 22: 28 New
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          Quote: kalibr
          Even the individual statues were preserved, the base of the columns, stairs, so there was much to make a foundation of.

          But you did not indicate that they were from (granite, basalt, limestone, etc.)
          It was about marble!
    2. kalibr 19 January 2020 13: 08 New
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      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      Yes, yes, marches and rallies took place throughout Greece. This was reported to the author by the media from those distant times.

      No, not the media. Greek historians have all this. This they all described. But who was the first to cry, none of them reports.
      "then what pile of ruins are we talking about?" - but think of the gray matter of the brain ...
      And about the "warrior". I didn’t call him that. Under this name, he is listed in the museum. And why and why I do not know, looked specialists who have been studying Ephesus for more than 100 years. Probably they better know.
      1. Krasnoyarsk 19 January 2020 22: 43 New
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        Quote: kalibr

        And about the "warrior". I didn’t call him that. Under this name, he is listed in the museum. And why and why I don’t know, looked specialists who have been studying for more than 100 years

        So what kind of a historian-researcher are you, if you so easily agree with the unobvious?
        Quote: kalibr
        Greek historians have all this. This they all described.

        So maybe they wrote like that because they wanted it so much? They themselves did not see either the first or the second temple. And you, without hesitation, believed, as you believed, without exploring, in the "warrior", who, just to relax, was stripped naked. Well, they have a custom, among soldiers, to strip naked. And the wounded Amazon, because the wounded, because she raised her hand. Not wounded, they don’t raise a hand. Or maybe her mosquito bit her and she decided to scratch the bite to “historians” such a version did not come to the “gray matter”? And, I realized, this is not so romantic.
        1. kalibr 20 January 2020 12: 37 New
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          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          So what kind of a historian-researcher are you, if you so easily agree with the unobvious?

          No! I just write about what I see, I know a little, and what people are interested in. And nobody really needs more.
          1. Krasnoyarsk 20 January 2020 13: 54 New
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            Quote: kalibr

            No! I just write about what I see, I know a little, and what people are interested in. And nobody really needs more.

            Why to anyone? I need! So that your every statement is substantiated by a sufficient evidence base. And so your articles - fiction of the day off, have fun.
            I wish you to go up a notch in your research.
        2. kalibr 20 January 2020 12: 38 New
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          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          Or maybe her mosquito bit her and she decided to scratch the bite to “historians” such a version did not come to the “gray matter”? And, I realized, this is not so romantic.

          That's it!
  • bubalik 19 January 2020 11: 51 New
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    length 105 m, width 51 m, and its roof was supported by 127 columns each 18 meters high.


    ,,, and such a grandiose structure was built with pens voluntarily? And how much time?
    ,,, and how everything turned out conveniently, "built", but it burned down.
    1. Undecim 19 January 2020 12: 05 New
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      And how much time?
      The first temple is 100 years old, the second one is 120. And what bothers you - the version with a fire?
      1. bubalik 19 January 2020 12: 06 New
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        ,, maybe there was no temple or not completed?
        1. 3x3zsave 19 January 2020 20: 03 New
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          "We, looking around, see only the graves,
          The view, of course, is very barbaric, but true "(C)
          1. Korsar4 19 January 2020 20: 11 New
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            "There is nothing around ... Deep silence ....
            The desert is dead ... And the heavens above it "(c).
            1. 3x3zsave 19 January 2020 20: 26 New
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              "In my soul is a desert wilderness,
              So stand over my empty soul
              Scraps of songs on the web
              And she took everything with her "" (C)
              1. Korsar4 19 January 2020 20: 37 New
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                "Silence. Only seagulls are like lightning.
                We feed them emptiness from the hands "(c).
                1. 3x3zsave 19 January 2020 20: 44 New
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                  "Feed the paint on the pigeons.
                  Make your city vibrant! "
                  1. Korsar4 19 January 2020 20: 48 New
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                    "A green sunrise rises over Moscow,
                    An orange cat is walking across the bridge "(c).
                    1. 3x3zsave 19 January 2020 20: 52 New
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                      "Like a girl walking barefoot around town,
                      A moth flutters through the squares and streets "(C)
                      1. Korsar4 19 January 2020 20: 55 New
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                        "Moth, moth,
                        He saved himself from death
                        Climbing to the hayloft.
                        Survived, hibernated "(c).
                      2. 3x3zsave 19 January 2020 21: 02 New
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                        "You are beckoning all the winged in the night,
                        But you do not want to warm anyone with this light "(C)
                      3. Korsar4 19 January 2020 21: 48 New
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                        "If the soul was born winged -
                        What to her mansions and what to her huts! "(C).
              2. Astra wild 19 January 2020 21: 15 New
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                Good thing the cows don't fly. Mayakovsky said when your dove dropped onto his hat
                1. Krasnoyarsk 20 January 2020 21: 32 New
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                  Quote: Astra wild
                  Good thing the cows don't fly. Mayakovsky said when your dove dropped onto his hat

                  This is Gorky said.
                  1. Astra wild 21 January 2020 16: 26 New
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                    Mayakovsky said that they told us in the lesson, but I myself did not read
  • Catfish 19 January 2020 12: 20 New
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    Vyacheslav Olegovich, thank you. hi Something I have today is the mood for the weather to hell, but looked at the Corinthian warrant and the soul rejoiced. Thanks. smile
    1. Korsar4 19 January 2020 13: 45 New
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      This is when the "Marriage of Figaro" is already fed up?
      1. Catfish 19 January 2020 14: 02 New
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        Who is fed up, Sergei?
        1. Korsar4 19 January 2020 15: 13 New
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          This is to Pushkin’s famous recipe.

          "As black thoughts come to you,
          Open a bottle of champagne
          Or scrolls "The Marriage of Figaro."

          So there are Corinthian columns in this row.
          1. 3x3zsave 19 January 2020 19: 22 New
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            Everyone has different methods. My ex-civil wife, in moments of hard spleen, sits down to watch t / s "Pride and Prejudice"
            1. kalibr 19 January 2020 22: 19 New
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              Quote: 3x3zsave
              "Pride and Prejudice"

              Hope the English series?
              1. 3x3zsave 20 January 2020 03: 49 New
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                Yes, with Colin Firth.
                1. kalibr 20 January 2020 12: 35 New
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                  The right woman! Downton Abbey is also impressive with Rosemary and Time.
                  1. 3x3zsave 20 January 2020 18: 24 New
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                    The right woman!
                    Even too much. Probably for this reason we are already "not together."
  • Senior seaman 19 January 2020 12: 43 New
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    Hmm, Croesus made a donation to the temple in 560 BC. The temple, having stood for 10 years, burned down in the year of birth of Alexander the Great, i.e. in 323 BC How much did it build?
    Lydians, by the way, are also not figs not Hellenes. But from Croesus, the townspeople took the money ....
    1. Operator 19 January 2020 13: 43 New
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      The earliest version of the temple (Asia Minor Temple) dates from the Bronze Age. In the 550th century BC the temple was destroyed by the flood. In 380 BC e. The construction of the Greek temple began under the direction of the architect Hersifron. Construction was completed around 356 BC. e. architects Demetrius and Peonius [. In XNUMX BC e. the temple was burned down by Herostratus, but after some time it was restored. The latest version of the temple, for the restoration of which funds were allocated by Alexander the Great, is described in the work of Antipater Sidonsky "Seven Wonders of the World."

      PS The Lydians were Asia Minor, but Ephesus was a Greek colony on their land.
  • Operator 19 January 2020 13: 58 New
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    As soon as the historians of the CPSU move into the field of technology (in this case, the construction of a temple in the lowlands as supposedly conscious protection against earthquakes), then embarrassment happens immediately laughing

    The western coast of Asia Minor is a mountainous terrain, smooth sections of which are located only at the mouth of the rivers (due to the spread of soil from mountains such as the terrain of Sochi on the Black Sea coast). Therefore, all large cities with developed harbors and, therefore, places for temples were chosen at the mouths of rivers with weak soil.

    The soil problem was solved with a pile base and a bulk cushion, the latter also served as flood protection during river spills.
    1. kalibr 19 January 2020 15: 32 New
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      Quote: Operator
      embarrassment happens right away

      And what's the embarrassment?
      You, apparently, are not aware that everything that is written here is completely and completely rewritten from various ancient sources: Strabo, Pliny the Elder, Plutarch and Pomponius Mel. I certainly won’t say who, what specifically wrote, what are the similarities of their texts, what are the differences - this historiographical study would require a separate article and it would hardly be interesting to you or other readers of VO. But this is so, there wasn’t even a “left-right step,” because no other sources were preserved. All these sources are there, you can take them at your leisure and read.
  • Xenofont 19 January 2020 14: 20 New
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    This is all that remains of the temple on the surface for 2008.
    1. AK1972 20 January 2020 13: 11 New
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      In the photo is not Ephesus. This is a baptismal site not far from the house of the Blessed Virgin Mary. The house that the Apostle John built for the Virgin Mary is on the mountain. Ephesus is lower, and from the temple of Artemis there is only one column standing in the swamp, it’s a pity the photograph is not inserted. This spring I was on an excursion in Ephesus, the beauty is amazing. I highly recommend to anyone who is going to Turkey to visit the ruins of Ephesus. It is near the city of Seljuk. There is also the Basilica of St. John. Many thanks to Vyacheslav Olegovich!
      1. Xenofont 20 January 2020 13: 49 New
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        The bottom photo is next to the column. And the column is definitely from the temple of Artemis.
  • Trilobite Master 19 January 2020 14: 43 New
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    Vyacheslav Olegovich, thank you. Interesting, informative. hi
  • Operator 19 January 2020 18: 11 New
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    Quote: kalibr
    everything that is written here in its entirety and completely rewritten from various ancient sources

    We have a century in the yard (in the sense of engineering logic) - do you know? laughing
    1. kalibr 19 January 2020 18: 25 New
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      What for? The story is noteworthy in that it can afford a presentation of material based on information from ancestors. How reliable it is is another question, but this is quite normal practice. Do you want to make people happy with your own views on the subject? Perfectly! Read these authors, look for where they lack engineering logic and go. It will be interesting, of course, for everyone!
  • Operator 19 January 2020 18: 36 New
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    Quote: kalibr
    based on information from ancestors

    The fact that the Earth stands on three elephants is also "information" from the ancestors laughing
    1. kalibr 19 January 2020 19: 08 New
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      Exactly! You're right! And you can also write about this, at what time they wrote about it, how they portrayed it, how they explained it - it can be submitted very interestingly and will be very informative.
  • Aviator_ 19 January 2020 20: 27 New
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    It is worth noting that the name of the alloy "electron" in ancient times really referred to the alloy of gold and silver, and now it is called the magnesium-based alloy, which has great strength and low specific gravity. It is used in aircraft manufacturing.
  • Astra wild 19 January 2020 21: 07 New
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    [quote = kalibr] Igor! Well, how do I know? It says "Wounded Amazon" ... And about the chest ... this is nonsense. Onions can be pulled to the chest in European fashion, in the east can be pulled sideways and in both cases the boobs do not interfere. Checked.
    In fact, it is customary to say: breasts, but this is out of opposition. Bad mood and cling
    1. kalibr 19 January 2020 22: 18 New
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      [quote = Astra wild] and cling
      And in general it became fashionable for AT to cling to some word "and come on" ... the trend is probably ... or something else ...
      1. Astra wild 22 January 2020 16: 52 New
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        I’m glad that they didn’t take offense at me. And I sometimes VERY and VERY angry us (you know when), but in fact you are one of the most outstanding authors on the site