Croatian apoxiomen from the water. Ancient civilization. H. 2

In the last material of a new series of articles in the series "Ancient Civilization" ("Homer's Poems as historical source. Ancient civilization. Part 1 ”) it was a question of how much the study of Homer helps historians and the connection of its texts with the finds of archaeologists. Logically, the second material should be devoted to the excavations of Heinrich Schliemann and Arthur Evans, but it so happened that among the last articles came out material about the capital of Croatia, Zagreb. And in Zagreb there is a beautiful Mimar Museum, the official name of which is: “The Art Collection of Ante and Viltruda Topić Mimara”, and this is an art collection of a very high, one can say without exaggeration, world-class level. And just there is one unique antique statue, which you just can not help but mention (and not tell) if we are talking about the ancient Greek culture. This is the so-called “Croatian Apoxyomen” - a bronze sculpture depicting an ancient athlete cleansing his body after a contest. Such sculptures were called Apoxyomenos (from the word "Scraper"), and their plot is more than banal and was an illustration of one of the most common elements of ancient Greek culture: the figure of an athlete was depicted at the very moment when he scraped with a special scraper, which the Romans called the strigil skin adhering to her sand, mixed with fat, which was customary to oil the body before any sporting event.


Croatian apoxiomen from the water. Ancient civilization. H. 2

Croatian Apoxyomenon (Mimara Museum)

It is believed that the most famous sculpture of the Apoxyomen in the ancient world was the statue of Lysippus from Sikion, the court sculptor Alexander of Macedon, whom he sculpted from bronze around 330 BC. Its bronze original was lost, but in his Natural History Pliny the Elder wrote that the Roman commander Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa staged this masterpiece of Lysippus in Rome in the Baths of Agrippa, around 20 BC. It is amusing that the emperor Tiberius was so carried away by the sight of this sculpture that he even removed it to his bedroom. However, the people of Rome did not like this. During the gladiatorial battle, which was attended by the emperor, there were shouts: “Bring us back our Apoxyomen” and the emperor replaced it with a copy.


Mimara Museum.

Pliny also mentioned that sculptor Policlet, or one of his students, made a similar statue. So it turns out that two sculptures were created on this topic, and maybe in fact they were much more. For example, in 1896, where ancient Ephesus was located in Turkey, we found a bronze statue, which is now in the Kunsthistorisches Museum in Vienna. And it is so good that experts cannot decide in any way that it is a copy or an original. Fragments from different Apoxyomenes are kept in various museums, so it is quite possible that this was the most popular statue of antiquity. There is a “head” that is kept in the Hermitage; another bronze head is in the Kimbell Art Museum (Fort Worth, Texas). The famous Vatican Apoxyomenon, which changes a pose, is probably an option from the original Lysippos.


Sculpture at the bottom of the sea

And then it was that 12 July 1997, a Belgian diver Rene Wouters spent his holidays in Croatia, in Istria (which once again characterizes him as an intelligent and practical person!), Dived deeper and saw the body lying on the bottom at 45-meter depth! Later, he told me that his hair stood on end with horror, and he literally jumped out of the water to the surface. But curiosity overcame fear, and he plunged a second time. And having plunged, he saw a statue half-soaked with sand and covered with algae and shells in the height of a man who looked so realistic that he took her for a corpse. Now he was able to inspect all the found statue. Everything was in place: both hands, legs, and head — it turned out that nothing had been lost. However, touching the head, he realized that it was not attached to the body, but was located on a ledge of a rock, although very close to the torso. The height of the sculpture, as it was measured later, was 192 cm.


Head at the bottom of the sea

It is clear that the diver said “where it is necessary” that the statue was examined by experts, but they could only raise it to the surface in April of 1999. Moreover, a special expedition explored the bottom around the site of the find for the detection of something else, say, a place of possible shipwreck, but found nothing except for a bronze base with an ornament in the form of a meander. Well, the base apparently broke off from the statue when it fell into the sea. That's just how she fell into him, where she fell from and why she fell - these are questions to which we will never get answers. On the other hand, there are no answers - but there is a statue!


Figure extracted from the bottom

However, it turned out that the found sculpture needs a very serious restoration, as its rear surface, which was directly lying on the sand, suffered quite strongly. Here, the front was mothballed by a layer of shells that covered it, and they, the shells, kept the “noble patina” covering it from the effects of sea water, which naturally protects all bronze objects from the destructive effects of oxygen.


Crusted sediment head

Simultaneously with the work on the restoration of the statue, studies were conducted on the composition of its metal and the technology of its manufacture was studied. It turned out that it was made of seven separate parts, separate manufactured legs and arms, the torso itself, the head, the genitals, and, of course, the base. After all of them were connected into one whole, the holes formed in some places were stained with additional metal parts.


Head after cleaning. Lips - red copper!

Most of the analyzes were carried out in the scientific laboratories of Florence and also at the Croatian Institute for Heritage Conservation. They were attracted, as is now universally practiced, by specialists from various fields, including physicists, chemists, and even biologists. For example, biologists, having conducted research "also said their word": it turns out that small rodents dwelled inside this statue for some time and even built a nest there. Since the presence of the biological material of these rodents belongs to the I-II centuries AD, it was concluded that even then the statue was clearly damaged and undoubtedly lay on the ground. That is, at sea, she had not yet drowned. But does that mean she drowned later? And here's another question - who was the manufacturer and who was the customer of this sculpture?


Full-length sculpture

The same question is constantly being asked and looking at the marble sculpture of Apoxiomen stored in the Vatican: wasn’t it made from the figure of Lysippos' creation? And, it is believed that yes - with his sculpture. Here is taken into account the characteristic dynamism of his works, characteristic of the era of the IV century BC, and the similarity with such statues as "The Young Man from Antikytheras" and "Athena from Piraeus". Well, and besides, this marble copy is truly unique, because it is not repeated in Roman copies.


Hand position

But the bronze statue, found in Croatia, just shows us a characteristic type of athlete, known for many Roman copies. So back in 1886, the “Apoxyomen of Ephesus” was found, which is stored in Vienna. But the question arose, and what, strictly speaking, he does, because strigil was lost from her. A statue from Croatia gives an answer to this question: with his right hand the athlete squeezes the handle of the strogil, but with the left holds his end, as can be seen from the position of the fingers of his hands, although the strigilla itself has not survived in this statue. True, much more in this statue does not coincide with the figure and marble.


Sculpture legs and base

It is interesting that in the alloy of the Croatian statue there is very little lead, which is typical for the alloys of the 4th century BC, than the later alloys of the Hellenistic or Roman times. The casting itself is of poor quality, with many cracks and seams. Having a good wax model, it was possible to make several copies, and scientists assume that a higher-quality casting was already made from the same model. Naturally, the question arises whether it is the Apoxyomenon of Lysippos himself. He has carefully crafted hair, and the size of the head is smaller than those that were the benchmark for the 4th century BC. Although his physique is “stronger” than other sculptures and his right arm is somehow awkward. Maybe this is the author's copy or one of his experiences? Who knows?


Here he is, handsome!

In 2015, a large-scale international exhibition project “Power and Pathos” was held, dedicated to the bronze sculpture of the Hellenistic world. Once again it was noted that no other type of Greek sculpture reached us in three bronze copies at once, two of which are statues in full growth, supplemented also by several marble copies. That is, for some reason, this sculpture was especially popular, and in Greece, and in Rome! And we can assume that all three bronze sculptures were made in the Eastern Mediterranean, but the marble ones were made in Italy. Whatever it was, and the Croats are now very proud that they also have their own Apoxyomenon, with very good quality.



However, there are many other interesting exhibits ...
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  1. Same lech 30 December 2018 05: 47 New
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    Mdaaa what VO and the statues of Ancient Rome ... oh well ... anyway a fascinating story of their appearance and find ... interesting technology of creating such statues at that time ... all the details of the human body are very accurately transferred ... like the masters of the ancient Rome achieved this? A cast from the body chtoli did
    1. tanit 30 December 2018 06: 24 New
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      Quote: The same Lech
      how did the masters of ancient Rome achieve this?

      After assembly (casting), they were finalized with a file (embossing).
    2. svp67 30 December 2018 16: 16 New
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      Quote: The same Lech
      Did they make a cast from the body?
      But how can you ... they are also the "cradle of civilization." I’m differently interested, like SUCH !!!!!! could create "wild", "uncultured", "nomads"?

      You are here to study the elements.
      And yet, Persia was a real cultural center of the ancient world, but there it is somehow sadder ...

      Maybe still "wildness" is not bad, in terms of cultural development
      1. IGOR GORDEEV 30 December 2018 21: 59 New
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        Quote: svp67
        But how can you ... they are also the "cradle of civilization." I’m differently interested, like SUCH !!!!!! could create "wild", "uncultured", "nomads"?

        If I’m not mistaken, the so-called upper image "Scythian gold". And such "gizmos" according to the official version for the Scythians were made by the Greeks.
        1. svp67 31 December 2018 07: 26 New
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          Quote: IGOR GORDEEV
          And such "gizmos" according to the official version for the Scythians were made by the Greeks.

          And in Siberia? The legacy of the Scythian-Sarmatian civilization is scattered over a very large area of ​​Eurasia, I do not think that the capacities of the Greeks, besides not having large gold reserves, were able to satisfy the needs of such a huge area
          1. Mikhail Matyugin 2 January 2019 18: 22 New
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            Quote: svp67
            And in Siberia? The legacy of the Scythian-Sarmatian civilization is scattered over a very large area of ​​Eurasia, I do not think that the capacities of the Greeks, besides not having large gold reserves, were able to satisfy the needs of such a huge area

            Dear Sergey, I just note that the level of jewelry in the Altai zone of the Scythian-Sarmatian world is much lower than the Caucasus-Black Sea regions, and this is a big plus in favor of the Greek jewelers.

            In addition, it is known that the local inhabitants of the Black Sea cities, even without being Greeks, adopted Greek skills and added their own traditions to them.

            Well and another important point - it is known that during their conquests in the Transcaucasus and the Middle East, the Scythians gathered skilled craftsmen, primarily jewelers, who were sent to their steppe possessions, where they also formed workshops (at least, things made locally in the Scythian steppes sometimes bear the features of an explicit school of Urartian and Babylonian jewelers).
            1. svp67 2 January 2019 18: 33 New
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              Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
              that the level of jewelry in the Altai zone of the Scythian-Sarmatian world is much inferior to the regions of the Caucasus-Black Sea region, and this is a big plus in favor of the Greek jewelers.

              It may be so, but seeing this somehow you doubt it ... anyway, for nomads the level is very high

              1. Mikhail Matyugin 2 January 2019 18: 53 New
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                It is the first image that is considered uncharacteristic and imported for that region, while others are traditional, yes. But they are immediately without masterpieces such as microscopic soldering.

                Yes, the cultural level of the works for nomads is generally almost unbelievable, therefore two ways - import from Greek colonies or organization of workshops (from migrants - forced or voluntarily arrived) on the spot, in Scythian cities (yes, there were such ones, Gelon, for example, etc.).
    3. Seal 31 December 2018 16: 10 New
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      Yeah. Here is how Michelangelo once built a square on Capitol Hill. And here they just dug out (and not far from the workshop of Michelangelo himself) on the occasion of an equestrian statue. The Romans look at the statue, including papal officials and wonder, who could it be? And suddenly it dawned on someone, "yes this is Marcus Aurelius! Well, spilled" !!!!
      But if the monument was made precisely under Marcus Aurelius, so to speak, from nature, then by the time of Michelangelo it would have been necessary to overhaul the work already, for the monument would have lost weight. Like a statue of Minin and Pozharsky in Moscow before the restoration: continuous holes. And then look - a tidy monument, and how by the time. lol
      And left Michelangelo Buanarroti on a pedestal of a horse with a rider to pile up. But for 1200–1300 years, albeit for 1000, bronze had to wear out. Moreover, the horse’s pose is risky, it stands on three legs. That is, the metal is in tension. In a good way, it would be necessary to do a new casting! To reach our days. hi
  2. Olgovich 30 December 2018 08: 10 New
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    It is amazing that for so many centuries of being at the bottom, the statue is not covered with sand and silt, which is the main obstacle, usually to find the cleansed treasures of the seas. .

    They knew how to make beauty in antiquity!
    Especially strange is the time of the wild Middle Ages that came after it ....
    1. kalibr 30 December 2018 08: 31 New
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      There is a strong current at the bottom and there is no rich vegetation ...
      1. tanit 30 December 2018 09: 38 New
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        Vyacheslav Olegovich, and what happened in those parts in the 1st dash of the 2nd centuries of our era a terrible thing happened? Christianity didn’t seem to have won yet, but the statue managed to visit the earth and was at the bottom.
        1. 3x3zsave 30 December 2018 10: 00 New
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          Not in 1-2, but in 4-5 centuries. The Great Migration, Late Antique Small Ice Age, Justinian's Plague. Here are, in fact, the three main reasons for the decline of ancient culture. The second, by the way, served as an impetus for the development of Arab civilization.
          1. tanit 30 December 2018 10: 09 New
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            Quote: 3x3zsave
            Not in 1-2, but in 4-5 centuries

            That's just in 1-2 mm centuries the statue lay down, lay on the ground. - from the article. hi
            1. 3x3zsave 30 December 2018 10: 28 New
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              But it’s not a fact that it lay precisely on the territory of modern Croatia. So between the place of life and work of Lysippos and the place of discovery of the statue several hundred kilometers.
            2. tanit 30 December 2018 10: 32 New
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              About the resettlement of peoples. Well, someone who was not very poor — he lifted him from the ground, cleaned, partially restored, tried (this unknown "he", or his descendants) to evacuate. Evacuation failed. Perhaps - and for the last owner of the statue.
              Blasphemously - but someone's tragedy - turned into a success for modern mankind.
              Something is somehow sad.
              1. 3x3zsave 30 December 2018 10: 42 New
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                It’s difficult to build the life of the statue after creating even an assumption. It is only clear that the authorship belongs to someone from the Lysippus school.
                1. tanit 30 December 2018 10: 53 New
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                  Likewise, and how - lay in the ground. It has been partially restored. And then she lay at the bottom of the sea. Someone very much admired Lysippos or his school.
                  Wow, if I have the talent of a writer - you can build such a theory ... At least, antediluvian, at least Atlantian, at least Hyperborean. wassat
                  1. 3x3zsave 30 December 2018 11: 07 New
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                    I can, but honestly, laziness. Well, maybe Mikhail "The Trilobite Master" will drop by. He’s great at parodying Folk historical tops.
                    1. tanit 30 December 2018 11: 22 New
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                      Kazantsev did not succeed. With Leo Taxil, it’s quite the opposite. Only Kazantsev wrote “science fiction”, Taxil wrote “pure truth” laughing
                      1. 3x3zsave 30 December 2018 11: 49 New
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                        Well, Kazantsev, in my opinion, didn’t get much.
                      2. tanit 30 December 2018 12: 01 New
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                        How? A "Olga Khokhroy" laughing ?
                      3. 3x3zsave 30 December 2018 12: 09 New
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                        I don’t understand, please expand.
                      4. Hantengri 30 December 2018 18: 05 New
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                        Quote: tanit

                        How? A "Olga Khokhroy"

                        “Allgory Horkh” is Efremov.
                      5. 3x3zsave 30 December 2018 18: 10 New
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                        Igor, well, at least you deploy!
                      6. Hantengri 30 December 2018 22: 09 New
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                        Ivan Efremov "Allgoy-Khorkhoy"
                        https://www.e-reading.club/bookreader.php/22387/Efremov_-_Olgoii-Horhoii.html
                      7. 3x3zsave 31 December 2018 00: 20 New
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                        To my shame, I did not read ...
                    2. novobranets 31 December 2018 20: 17 New
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                      "Allgoy Horha", this is from Mongolian legends. They have them like our Serpent Gorynych., Only lives in the desert.
          2. Trilobite Master 30 December 2018 14: 55 New
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            Quote: 3x3zsave
            Here can Michael "Master of the trilobite" go.

            But where did he go ... smile
            You ask for songs - I have them. Read and enjoy. smile
            Many years ago, during the reign of Octavian
            What was called the royal name of Augustus
            Lived in the glorious city of Pitas Julia Paul
            Notable merchant, a citizen, respected by all
            His name was Publius Saul, he was lucky and dexterous
            He managed to visit many countries with his goods.
            People saw him both in Pergamum and in the state of Pontic
            Blessed by the gods, he always returned home
            With the benefit of being honest, he is whole and safe ...
            We know for sure that somehow, having returned from wandering,
            He brought with him a human figure from bronze
            The sunlight reflected it and was so beautiful
            That figure admired the citizens of the city of Paul
            Depicted in that sculpture was a nude and tall warrior
            What won the competition fair sports
            Set the figure in the garden near the house
            Publisher Saul to visit him
            And they could admire this wonderful miracle who wants
            The daughter of Publiya, the young Quinta Savina
            Passion flawed to sculpture naked inflamed
            She spent whole nights and days around her
            And did not want any other man to surrender to man
            Worthy young men of noble birth
            Even from Rome matchmakers sent, all in vain
            Only one she longed endlessly -
            The warrior is slim, that her garden was decorated with its appearance.
            On the day when sacrifices are offered to gods and pray for good luck
            Young Quint went to the Temple of the Thunderer
            On the altar stabbed a bull and a slave, and a kid
            With hot prayer to Jupiter, the maiden prayed
            And asked the gods to revive her sculpture
            To be able to match she was a legitimate marriage
            With a bronze warrior for another husband to her
            There is not and is not necessary among the mortals that inhabit the world.
            And obeying her order that evening
            Three slaves took the statue straight from the garden
            Transfer it to the bed-maid
            And they laid her right on the girl's bed.
            The eye is not closing all night the girl lay
            Next to the sculpture of the one, clinging to her body hot
            And the Thunderbringer descended to Quinta's prayers.
            Life he sent to the bosom of the statue of this beautiful.
            And she heard the girl - under the bronze chest
            Heart beat beating, cling lips
            To the bronze loins cold and immobile
            And in silence, waiting for a miracle.
            In the morning my father came to her and saw that Quint
            Dead lying hugging a bronze sculpture
            With grief he struck the statue with a thick staff
            And from the blow from the eyes of that beautiful sculpture
            Vile mice climbed and fled in an instant.
            So laughed at Quinto thunder god.
            Publiy Saul that sculpture vzgruzil on the ship
            In the sea, drove and dropped into the abyss in that place
            Where would two thousand years she lay
            That more kind people would not find it.
            1. 3x3zsave 30 December 2018 16: 27 New
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              "Bravo, first horn!"
              ("The Adventures of Major Zvyagin" M. Weller)
            2. Trilobite Master 30 December 2018 19: 33 New
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              Where our not disappeared ... laughing
              It was necessary to add
              Scarlet poppies sadly hid their buds
              Faded and lilies, drooping their heads
              Why do you, oh, young girls, in your favor
              By the cold lean bronze, no matter how beautiful
              She was not. That does not lead to good,
              Suffering only evil carrying ...

              Holiday greetings. smile drinks
          3. Aviator_ 30 December 2018 20: 26 New
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            Well, right Gnedich! Pushkin is not on you! Respect!
          4. Hantengri 31 December 2018 00: 13 New
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            A syllable worthy of Ovid, Michael! good
            But, these lines:
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            The daughter of Publiya, the young Quinta Savina

            Immediately give you a vile barbarian trying to squander under the radical quirite.
            A noble Roman, unlike those who had left, would never have called the fifth daughter of a worthy Publius Saul "Quinta Savina", for it was uncultural to put a Pernomen before the name of such a creature as a woman. Only unenlightened barbarians have a foolish fashion of giving women their personal names; a noble Roman woman should have enough of a clan. The root quirite would say stupidly: SaviLeah Quinta would not bother about the fact that a woman is also a man. laughing
          5. Trilobite Master 31 December 2018 00: 31 New
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            Sorry, we are not local ... laughing
            Thanks for the tip. In order to create a good parody, of course, more knowledge is required, and antiquity is not my hobby. I myself doubted whether I used the name correctly, but ... what happened was what happened. So, I entertained myself, entertained colleagues ... I am glad that people liked it.
            Holiday greetings. smile
          6. Consultant 31 December 2018 00: 44 New
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            I apologize for the intervention ... with a cloth, dragging, snout ...

            Your comment - in the memoris, definitely ... already copied, saved, memorized. Roman cocks laid out on modern slang is something laughing

            But here

            Quote: HanTengri
            But, these lines: never when

            Um ... I was taught differently at school ...

            Solids: Trilobite Master (Michael), Hantengri (Igor) - thank you very much for what you wrote. And with the coming Year, happiness, good luck ... sincerely yes
          7. Hantengri 31 December 2018 01: 08 New
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            Quote: Consultant
            Um ... I was taught differently at school ...

            Thank you. hi And then I, as a person tormented by science education, from the entire school curriculum, in Russian, I only remember: Well, well, write with the letter "and" ...
            Happy New Year!
          8. Mordvin 3 31 December 2018 01: 13 New
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            Quote: HanTengri
            I only remember: W, W - write with the letter "and" ...

            But I wrote the word "Chauvinism" with the letter "and". "Shivinism, in short. laughing
          9. Consultant 31 December 2018 01: 20 New
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            Quote: mordvin xnumx
            I wrote the word "Chauvinism" with the letter "and"

            belay

            This means - they taught correctly at school ... So, you read the necessary books in childhood yes

        2. Consultant 31 December 2018 01: 18 New
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          Quote: HanTengri
          I, as a man tormented by science education

          I am a techie. And a programmer in life. I see typos with my soul, not my eyes.

          You have a talent, I don’t have one. I wrote something to say thanks ... and typos - they all have.

          Thanks again, Happy New Coming, good luck. hi
  3. kalibr 31 December 2018 07: 40 New
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    Just awesome!
  • kalibr 30 December 2018 12: 37 New
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    Most likely it was
  • Antares 30 December 2018 12: 50 New
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    Quote: 3x3zsave
    The second, by the way, served as an impetus for the development of Arab civilization.

    These are standard climate swings. And accordingly, the interception of the torch of civilization.
    1. 3x3zsave 30 December 2018 13: 20 New
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      Not certainly in that way. The cause of the Late Antique Little Ice Age was the high volcanic activity in the equatorial zone of the planet. This is proven by glaciological studies in Greenland. It’s hard to talk about climate swings.
  • kalibr 30 December 2018 12: 36 New
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    I’ll write about it, I was there myself and took a photo ...
  • Boris55 30 December 2018 08: 56 New
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    Quote: Olgovich
    They knew how to make beauty in antiquity!
    Especially strange is the time of the wild Middle Ages that came after it ...

    Maybe everything is much simpler? Maybe these are the remains of antediluvian civilization, the artifacts of which it is no longer possible to hide, and it is time for historians to write a new history of mankind? And it turns out like from the USA - they flew to the moon, but to the ISS - well, no matter how. laughing
    1. tanit 30 December 2018 09: 32 New
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      Quote: Boris55
      Maybe everything is much simpler?

      Are you seriously? belay That is, instead of ancient civilization, is it easier to come up with and describe antediluvian? request wassat
      1. tanit 30 December 2018 09: 35 New
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        "Especially strange is the time of the wild Middle Ages that came after it ...." -Olgovich, I'm sorry for the phrase you took.
        And the wild time that came after the antediluvian is normal, right Boris? wink
      2. Boris55 30 December 2018 09: 44 New
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        Quote: tanit
        ... instead of ancient civilization, it’s easier to invent and describe antediluvian?

        Even you heard something about the antediluvian, and historians - not gu-gu. laughing

        You can scribble about REN-TV arbitrarily and yet:

        1. tanit 30 December 2018 09: 51 New
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          Quote: Boris55
          Even you heard something about antediluvian

          Yeah. Antediluvian equipment ... Antediluvian weapons ... Moreover, "even I" heard and read about the "antediluvian" even before the works of Fomenko. laughing And to the Internet. laughing
          1. tanit 30 December 2018 09: 53 New
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            "Antediluvian" - extremely ancient, extinct (literally: existed before the mythical biblical flood) (c)
          2. Boris55 30 December 2018 09: 53 New
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            Quote: tanit
            "even me," and heard and read about the "antediluvian"

            I'm happy for you.
            1. tanit 30 December 2018 09: 55 New
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              I am also happy for myself. laughing But for you, not really. repeat I do not have enough antediluvian ... request
              1. Boris55 30 December 2018 10: 47 New
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                Quote: tanit
                I'm happy for myself too

                Tell me, when did you think the first person on Earth appeared? Do you believe the Bible, which is described as a cataclysm, in the form of a global flood, something that you do not believe in, destroyed? laughing
                1. tanit 30 December 2018 11: 20 New
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                  Boris, I watched the film "Noah" - his first minutes should have tried on everyone, weren't you (including you with people like me)? laughing Do I believe in this movie? request And you? laughing
                  1. Boris55 30 December 2018 11: 41 New
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                    Quote: tanit
                    I watched a film

                    The hint understood. laughing
                    Have you heard the thread about D. Mereshkovsky? And what about Plato? Video from 3: 30:

                  2. tanit 30 December 2018 11: 44 New
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                    Boris ... You know - for the level of the METHOD FOR SUBMITTING INFORMATION - REN-TV receives prizes. FEED METHOD level - worthy of prizes .. For the INFORMATION itself - well .. there would be .. like ... lol (I'm without a mat - this time, excuse me) laughing
                    1. Boris55 30 December 2018 11: 57 New
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                      Clear. We categorically do not want to answer my questions about when a person appeared and whether there was a flood. OK, bye. hi
                    2. Mordvin 3 31 December 2018 01: 40 New
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                      Quote: Boris55
                      was there a flood

                      Was, was. The list of Lloyd is listed on Mount Ararat drowned. laughing
                  3. tanit 30 December 2018 11: 59 New
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                    Boris, you understand - here are such videos - you will not convince anyone. laughing
                    By the way, do you greatly honor Chudinov? So, Chudinov contradicts Fomenko. Klesov is for both of them. Levashov (deceased) - all three already. Everyone was on REN-TV. lol
                    "Where is the truth, Billy" (c) wink
                  4. tanit 30 December 2018 12: 19 New
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                    Quote: Boris55
                    We categorically do not want to answer my questions about when a person appeared and whether there was a flood.

                    Not at all. Why, I will answer. soldier
                    The flood was. Every people living near the river had, and more than once. Someone (the Sumerians, before the "Book of Books" described it), that it was bad in this, they described it on clay and carved it on a stone recourse Well, they were stupid - They didn’t read the Old Testament .... (and the fact that the Old Testament wasn’t even there, so this is nonsense)
                    There was a flood. I agree.
                    And then ... Who to believe? crying
                  5. tanit 30 December 2018 12: 23 New
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                    Quote: Boris55
                    and when do you think the first person on earth appeared?

                    Honestly - when shooting the movie "Noah." I don’t remember exactly who played Abel in it ... But, I’ll assume that the person appeared only thanks to this actor, mom and dad. Is not it? wink
                  6. tanit 30 December 2018 12: 27 New
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                    Oh ... Abel (and Cain, by the way) Dad -Adam, mom -Eva .... And who played them, I don’t know. laughing
                2. kalibr 30 December 2018 13: 31 New
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                  "Do not make any more wine from agave, but begin to hollow the trunk of a large cypress ... when in a month ... the water rises above heaven!" "Popol vuh"
                3. Mikhail Matyugin 2 January 2019 18: 30 New
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                  Quote: tanit
                  The flood was. Every people living near the river had, and more than once. Someone (the Sumerians, before the “Book of Books” described it) that they described it poorly in clay and were carved on stone. Well, they were stupid, they didn’t read the Old Testament .... (and the fact that the Old Testament -Not yet, -so this is nonsense)
                  There was a flood. I agree.

                  Yes, yes, but how to explain the location of shells of oceanic mollusks on the tops of the mountains, did not think? And the fact that the Ark described in the book of Genesis is a very stable and very seaworthy vessel, which has exactly the exact dimensions for the strength of a wooden structure?
  • kalibr 30 December 2018 12: 42 New
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    As a lecturer of OK Komsomol in 1975-1977. regularly lectured "The Mysteries of Ancient Civilizations." Wow, I hung out there. REN-TiVI is far away ... It turned out that the aliens ... the aliens and the aliens ... And when they asked me why they didn’t come again, you said, did you hear about the Einstein paradox? And in a soothing voice he added: "We are still flying back-but-oh-oh!"
    1. tanit 30 December 2018 12: 48 New
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      well, I do not
      Quote: kalibr
      Wow, I hung out there. REN-TiVI far ...

      There, both the video sequence, the mummers in the form, and the voices are edited ... wassat Oh, don't flatter yourself. laughing
      Though. by degree of exposure .... laughing
      Ahem ... So, are you the creator of REN-TV ?! laughing And in conspiracy theories - it turns out that way. lol
      1. tanit 30 December 2018 12: 52 New
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        So is that you? Oh, my life has done it to you ...
        1. tanit 30 December 2018 12: 53 New
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          laughing And I remember you not many others. Not as gray as now ... laughing
      2. kalibr 30 December 2018 13: 19 New
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        Nothing can replace a living word!
        1. tanit 30 December 2018 13: 21 New
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          Well. Holiday greetings!
      3. kalibr 30 December 2018 18: 30 New
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        I had a program on the Penza TV "Stars are Calling", where my daughter Svetlana played the role of an alien from space, and a flying saucer landed in a clearing behind the television center ... She was wrapped in strips of stanoli and dressed in a blue suit, and she stood in front of a blue screen - chromakey and blue was not visible. Only stanyol. The terminator was so-so compared to this horror ...
    2. 3x3zsave 30 December 2018 16: 42 New
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      So these are not "aliens", these are "aliens". They are engaged in paleocontactors, and “aliens in black” are aliens.
      1. tanit 30 December 2018 16: 56 New
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        It’s a pity that it’s not People in White ...
        1. 3x3zsave 30 December 2018 17: 41 New
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          No no no! "People in white coats, By the bed of yours and mine" is somehow too much! Let's get around ...
  • 3x3zsave 30 December 2018 09: 33 New
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    Thanks for the article, Vyacheslav Olegovich. Honestly, I don’t understand the general concept of the cycle. Something like "Talks about Russian Culture" by Y. Lotman?
    1. tanit 30 December 2018 10: 43 New
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      Anton, for some reason, from the articles in this series, I only highlighted “Homer Poems ...” Although the series about “A View from the Bus ...” is much longer, and “Homer Poems ...” is not quite from the same opera.
      I join your question.
      Vyacheslav Olegovich, who gives the names to your series? By the way, that would not find fault, I propose the name "Look from the bus at the countries of the former Warsaw Treaty Organization" wink
      1. 3x3zsave 30 December 2018 11: 01 New
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        That's right, Vadim! This is the second article in the series. Interestingly, this cycle is authentic, that is, these materials do not process other works of the author into a resource format. I know that for a couple of months ago V.O.
        1. tanit 30 December 2018 11: 12 New
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          Quote: 3x3zsave
          I know that for a couple of months ago V.O.

          Anton, Vyacheslav Olegovich - very zealously, and by no means only this year, monitors the absence of plagiarism in his articles (even plagiarism in himself).
          1. tanit 30 December 2018 11: 13 New
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            And by the way, I got lost in the flood .. (((
            1. 3x3zsave 30 December 2018 11: 24 New
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              Come on ... We’re not the peculiarities of breeding budgerigars discussed, but the work of a specific author.
              1. tanit 30 December 2018 11: 29 New
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                Here I do not quite agree.
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                creativity of a specific author.

                Although, creativity too. request
                But what happened there .... Nests - they do not immediately appear, mice (rats) - not cockroaches, rodents still need some time.
          2. 3x3zsave 30 December 2018 11: 18 New
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            I know. I don’t criticize, they just note that these articles are not part of something more, such as the “Viking” or “knightly” cycles. Well, not yet ...
            1. tanit 30 December 2018 11: 32 New
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              So it seems to me ... That any event in our (in human) history is somehow connected with the main theme of the VO site.
              1. 3x3zsave 30 December 2018 11: 42 New
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                I agree. Just some "fighters for the purity of the subject of the site" poorly represent the cause and effect chains. "The enemy enters the city, sparing no prisoners, because there was no nail in the forge." Hence the cries: "What is IT doing on the site !!!"
                1. tanit 30 December 2018 11: 54 New
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                  Quote: 3x3zsave
                  Just some "fighters for the purity of the subject matter of the site" poorly represent the causal chain of investigations.

                  I will assume that you are not quite right. Just - other topics (also "unrelated") - cause "rabid interest." And who is interested in history? (If without the Anglo-Saxons and Old Believers) laughing
                  And here are the statues ... Who are they interested in ?! Neither the Anglo-Saxons, nor the Zionists, nor the Bandera, nor Putin .... Oh, horror ... wassat
                  Sad And not funny.
                  1. 3x3zsave 30 December 2018 12: 04 New
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                    You, I, can name a dozen more comrades. I think this is a sufficient incentive for creativity. I'm not talking about such prosaic matters as content filling
                    1. tanit 30 December 2018 12: 11 New
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                      Quote: 3x3zsave
                      about such prosaic matters as content filling

                      IN. on VO (uh, a pun almost) - already "filled the content". The filling - even increased. laughing
                      However, I only for. But do they pay for articles initially, and not just after "filling"?
                      Let good authors, yes, be well paid. drinks
      2. kalibr 30 December 2018 13: 16 New
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        Quote: tanit
        I join your question.
        Vyacheslav Olegovich, who gives the names to your series? By the way, that would not find fault, I propose the name "Look from the bus at the countries of the former Warsaw Treaty Organization"

        The answer to the first question: I myself!
        The answer to the second: will not work. Next summer the course is Italy.
        1. tanit 30 December 2018 13: 30 New
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          Quote: kalibr
          Next summer the course is Italy.

          Ahem ... Well, until this summer, is there still a whole New Year ?. laughing
  • Mikhail3 30 December 2018 13: 05 New
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    That is, the rodent nest provided enough biomaterial for carbon analysis? Very interesting. A time reference, even such an approximate one, is very valuable in my opinion. If you do not take into account the probability of a fake (which, alas, always must be taken into account), it turns out that the statue was thrown off the deck of the ship. It is logical to tie it on the deck (it is not afraid of spray, salt, dampness or mechanical damage during moderate impacts) and transport it like that. Well, then the storm, for example.
    Interesting and clearly imperfect form. Someone spent a lot of metal on a statue with a somewhat strange hand. Maybe this model with which they sculpted the statue really had such a hand? It happens to people. On the other hand, the “swordsman’s arm” does not fit here - the pectoral muscles are developed equally, the back muscles seem to be the same, that is, this is not a bias characteristic of specific exercises.
    In any case, when there seemed to be a whole peculiar industry that produced such statues almost like a stream, since it was possible to cast according to standard technology and assemble it was clearly not a masterpiece, but some kind of a dodger. Maybe a hand in general from another statue?
  • kalibr 30 December 2018 13: 17 New
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    Quote: 3x3zsave
    gave the idea to V.O.

    For which personal thanks!
    1. 3x3zsave 30 December 2018 13: 30 New
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      You're welcome! You, too, have given me some ideas, I will try to implement them.
  • kalibr 30 December 2018 13: 19 New
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    Quote: Mikhail3
    In any case, when there seemed to be a whole peculiar industry that produced such statues almost like a stream, since it was possible to cast according to standard technology and assemble it was clearly not a masterpiece, but some kind of a dodger. Maybe a hand in general from another statue?

    Very interesting opinion!
    1. tanit 30 December 2018 13: 33 New
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      Quote: Mikhail3
      and to collect clearly not a masterpiece, but a certain "prohodnik".

      Ahem .... Interesting, and who now such a "prohodnik" will work? Without coinage?
      1. tanit 30 December 2018 13: 35 New
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        No. About small works - Vyacheslav Olegovich - already gave "hidden advertising". wink
        1. tanit 30 December 2018 13: 58 New
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          Quote: tanit
          Ahem .... Interesting, and who now such a "prohodnik" will work? Without coinage?

          Yes, and a masterpiece - no one can .... recourse Antediluvian, that's just them .... recourse
      2. Mikhail3 30 December 2018 14: 00 New
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        Yes, any handshake. In the presence of high-temperature sources of energy, both in the form of fuel, and in the form of electricity, computer modeling for the manufacture of wax forms ... there will not be a couple of statues in this crafts, even if clay matrices are manually untwisted on a cable for better filling.
        And if you mean a purely artistic side, that is, to create a form not by modeling, but by inspiration, by hands, as they teach in art schools. Not Lissip will come out, and not Michelangelo, but better than this craft ...
        1. tanit 30 December 2018 14: 22 New
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          Quote: Mikhail3
          Yes, any handshake.

          Well, no.
          Few people can repeat the knife from the Stone Age. Rukozhop- can not even with the current tools. hi
          And then there’s a statue ... Not a handicraft. Even now. laughing
          1. tanit 30 December 2018 14: 24 New
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            Talents - they are only on a "3D" printer, right? laughing
          2. 3x3zsave 30 December 2018 16: 21 New
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            I somehow tried ... Bottom line: broken fingers (one nail came off), a bunch of silicon chips, a small nucleus and nothing like a tool, even remotely.
            1. tanit 30 December 2018 16: 58 New
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              So that’s not possible ... wassat
              1. 3x3zsave 30 December 2018 17: 56 New
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                Maybe. I do not have the ability to chop a stone. Meanwhile, this skill was very common among the rural population of Russia, only about half a century ago.
          3. t7310 14 January 2019 21: 45 New
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            "Few can repeat a knife from the Stone Age,"
            then I remembered someone’s argument that silicon doesn’t lie underfoot, and silicon tools, including labor, are the remains of antediluvian processors that were used in this way because almost everything else had already turned to dust by that time
    2. tanit 30 December 2018 14: 04 New
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      As it were - "casting in parts" is quite already (and again) available. The method of substitution with bronze is different. The quality of "files for fine-tuning" is the same. Chasing is one way.
  • Hunghuz 30 December 2018 20: 30 New
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    Wow
    How interesting
    Super!
  • nafanal 1 January 2019 15: 56 New
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    Storytellers .. This statue is no more than 400 years old ...
    1. kalibr 1 January 2019 16: 37 New
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      If you prove it, then make a scientific discovery equal to the discovery of Schliemann! Your name will be immortal!
      1. nafanal 1 January 2019 17: 18 New
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        I sneezed at such immortality. The technology of casting bronze is not more than 500 years old. Something I did not find references to such technology in the works of these same Tacitus tithes of Libya and other things that appeared in the 14-15 centuries. The case of Poggio Bracciolini lives and flourishes in our time. By the way, it has long been proven that all the junk that dug the shliman is bungled from South American gold ..
        1. kalibr 1 January 2019 23: 06 New
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          Quote: Nathanael
          By the way, it has long been proven that all the junk that dug the shliman was made of South American gold ..

          Who is proven? Interesting ... You are probably the author of many interesting studies on this topic? Is it possible to get acquainted with your scientific works on it?
          1. nafanal 1 January 2019 23: 51 New
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            We are lazy and curious .. Pushkin said. I’m not writing works myself, God is not far interested in everything related to this topic. The magazine was such .. Knowledge is power. I have a binder for 6 years. So I got this information from there. For some kind of 80 shaggy year. During the Soviet era, nobody heard anything about the word like fake in the press. The editor with a party membership card and often was responsible for unreliable information ... 10 years ago he went bankrupt for reprint of the publication of A. Morozov Khristos. There he still there is another name .. I looked at a lot differently, therefore I’m not offended by your sarcasm .. Contact any metallurgist to enlighten you on the rate of aging and decay of bronze in sea water
            1. kalibr 2 January 2019 08: 29 New
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              And so you are one of those who are interested in everyone, but really do not know anything. So I just don’t need to turn to any metallurgist when there is a laboratory of the Russian Academy of Sciences, where they study ancient metals and alloys. And about the editors with a party card ... ha ... I myself was a lecturer at the OK CPSU and I know who, what and how then answered better than you. It was published both in Politagitor and in many other Soviet magazines and I know this cuisine very well. But I didn’t get to “Knowledge-power”, and in “Science and Life” there were my articles ... Moreover, I am “for” - take an interest, but you cannot judge only by two editions. And there are magazines "Archeology of the Russian Federation (and the USSR was, the editor also answered there, ?!" Questions of history "," Homeland "," History of state and law ", magazine" Metallurg "(published since 1956 of the year), and it just addressed the issues of corrosion resistance. In short, there is a difference between just "interested" and those who have special training and are interested in a scientific basis. Think about it at your leisure, and until you shout rubbish, it hurts and offends.
              1. nafanal 2 January 2019 16: 30 New
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                Understandably .. In matters of history, you hesitated along with the party line .. Joke .. Kergoud .. If historians said it’s antiquity. So be it. And there are no arguments from linguists literary geologists with foam at the mouth proving the absurdity of the statement to anything they don’t cite. In general, historians are in some privileged position .. For all their fabrications, even the most delusional will surely find evidence even if they contradict common sense. Here for example dating Even the most modern methods give a spread of almost a thousand years. Newton himself was almost put into a psychiatric hospital just because he doubted the Scaligerian chronology and made an attempt to review some dates. He died on time. Historians are one big organized crime group ...
                1. kalibr 2 January 2019 17: 57 New
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                  You see, Alexei, you can also hesitate with the party line in different ways, and this line ended in 91. And further, where I just was not, with whom I did not work, I was not in any museums. I myself do not like stubborn ones and according to the documents I “changed history”, though only once. But ... I do not like empty words and broad generalizations. Everyone who is not satisfied with the official history is "paced too widely." I would prefer concrete evidence that Aponsiomen is not made of an alloy characteristic of the 1-3 centuries to all empty talk, that ... I have not met delusional fabrications of historians, but I have met many delusional fabrications of ignoramuses. So you have not convinced me of anything. You simply do not have my experience and knowledge.
            2. Mikhail3 8 January 2019 12: 52 New
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              You did not pay attention - the dating in the article is confirmed not by bronze, but by biological material. The remains of a bird's nest, that is, carbon 14. The corrosion rate of bronze in seawater is quite high (0,7g / m), but when the bronze is completely covered with a layer of oxide, water access to the bronze is difficult, and it can lie under water for a very long time (although corrosion does not stop, of course).
              On the other hand, it somehow strange happened with this nest. How could the biomaterial itself survive? Did he not have to completely replace himself with calcites, and completely lose any identifiable form? These swamps preserve the fallen in them, due to the complete lack of oxygen. And seawater is a very active agent.
              1. nafanal 8 January 2019 14: 07 New
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                Carbon dating is controversial. Even archaeologists and historians themselves admit it. For a period of tens of thousands of years, it still works. But for less, there may be discrepancies .. And significant. I focus more on natural decay. Here I noticed that as soon as they began to conduct systematic monitoring of the preservation of ancient monuments, they began to collapse much faster than in previous millennia. And immediately the bleating of historians rose that de technological progress and the associated climate change, emissions of harmful substances into the atmosphere accelerate destruction. Yes, this is all nonsense. people are too insignificant in nature. You probably remember the eruption of a volcano .. you still can’t pronounce the name .. so he threw out all the signs much more than humanity in his entire history .. And no one noticed this. And at least the statue of Michelangelo, his famous David -First years, he stood in the open air and then put under the roof. He began to collapse. Although technical progress is not yet They were tormented by vague suspicions that the "titans of rebirth" had their talented hands attached to fairy tales about these antiquities
              2. Seal 5 February 2019 10: 07 New
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                If this is a bird’s nest, made, as I believe, of blades of grass and straws, then yes, firstly, as you correctly note, How could the biomaterial itself survive? Did he not have to completely replace himself with calcites, and completely lose any identifiable form?
                And secondly
                https://elibrary.ru/item.asp?id=9928364
  • Seal 5 February 2019 10: 02 New
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    And where did all the skill go then? Here are the figures not of some athletes there, but of co-emperors (Diocletian and Maximinus) made in Constantinople in the 4th century AD.
  • Seal 5 February 2019 10: 10 New
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    Quote: Olgovich
    Especially strange is the time of the wild Middle Ages that came after it ....

    Well, why the "wild Middle Ages." Here are the sculptural images of the co-emperors Diocletian and Maximian from Constantinople, 4th century AD.

    It seems like far from the "wild Middle Ages", huh? Moreover, Constantinople, as we are told, was not captured by anyone until 1204.
  • Crimea26 26 February 2019 17: 40 New
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    Happening. Another 100 years - and only tattered rags would have remained from bronze ...