Why did the Japanese have such powerful ships?


A falcon does not peck abandoned grains. Like him, the samurai is obliged to pretend that he is full, even if he dies of hunger.


Impeccable spirit and moderation in everything - such is the path of a real warrior (bushido). Because it is so easy to believe that contempt for household amenities was a Japanese tradition fleet. The highest combat characteristics of the Mogami, Tone or Nagato were purchased due to the "terrible" crew accommodation conditions.

But why?

The myth of poor habitability is written down entirely from the words of the Americans. And their idea of ​​comfort was not modest. The Yankees had the right to believe that the lack of round-the-clock buffets and a choice of three types of juices were unbearable deprivations for sailors. But this assessment is unlikely to be considered objective for the remaining fleets of the era.

If we evaluate the comprehensive concept of "habitability" in comparison with the ships of European countries, then unexpectedly it turns out the following. Japanese ships were the most comfortable and cozy!

With your permission, I will cite an excerpt from an article by Vladimir Sidorenko, in which the author conducts a logical analysis of established myths about Japanese habitability (in the form of quotes taken from the monograph by V. Kofman).

Of course, in the cockpits of Japanese ships it was impossible to play baseball and rugby, but as for the rest ...
1. "The crews ate and slept in the same cramped spaces." This is true, but such an organization was commonplace at that time. It is enough to recall the domestic tank system.
2. "The team slept exclusively in hanging bunks." Large Japanese ships, starting with the cruisers of Project No. C-37, prepared in the summer of 1931 (Mogami type), were equipped with three-tier stationary bunks for personnel.
3. "Galleys, based on American standards, could only qualify as primitive ..." On the galleys of Japanese ships, in any case, there were stoves and boilers for cooking food and tea, refrigerators, not to mention chopping knives, boards and other equipment. This is enough to feed the crew, but if it is considered a "primitive", then what else should be in the galley according to "American standards"?
4. "... plumbing facilities did not have the proper equipment." What is this ?! Maybe there was not enough bidet ?!
5. "Washing the crew on Japanese ships came down to pouring water on the open deck (which maybe not bad when serving in the tropics, but by no means in the winter in harsh northern waters)." That is precisely why, even on Japanese destroyers (not to mention cruisers and battleships) there were baths for personnel.

Great criticism!

There were ice cream machines on American ships, but they forget to add that there were lemonade machines on Japanese ships. Not to mention such “trifles” for serving in the tropics as drinking fountains and refrigerated chambers for storing food. For example, all heavy cruisers, depending on the type, were equipped with refrigerators with volumes from 67 to 96 cubic meters - almost a hundred liters per crew member!

Japanese galleys and refrigerators can not be compared with the conditions in which, for example, Italian sailors. Those lacked a galley in its traditional sense. And the diet consisted of "pasta, dry wine and olive oil." The trophy “Cesare Novorossiysk” at first caused a lot of complaints from Soviet sailors. The ship, designed for the conditions of eternal summer, was unsuitable for service in the cold Black Sea climate. A significant amount of work was required to bring Cesare to Soviet standards.

Unlike most Europeans who made such blunders, Japanese ships were adapted to any climate zone - from the Bering Sea to the equator. The living quarters had steam heating and high-quality ventilation systems. For example, the heavy cruiser Mogami had 70 ventilation units with a total capacity of 194 liters. from.

As for the size of the cubicles and three-tier beds - this is the routine of that time. Many depended on the class of the ship itself. The crew of the cruiser was usually placed in more comfortable conditions than the crew of a destroyer or submarine. Only the Germans really knew what crowding was on large ships. The real crew of the Admiral Hipper-type TKR was one and a half times higher than the nominal value (due to hundreds of specialists and workers making sure that this ship did not fall apart on the go).

In general, if someone believes that the designers could solve some armament and reservation issues due to the deterioration of habitability, then he is deeply mistaken.

Even if you sleep in the cockpits while standing, then no increase in combat characteristics will happen. The design of the ship largely depends not on the size of the cubicles, but on the number of art. turrets, diagrams of angles of shelling guns and sweeping radii of trunks. Mechanisms incommensurable with human size!

The introduction was unexpectedly delayed, but we talked about little-known and unexpected facts about which it would not make sense to talk briefly.

Now let's move on to the main thing.

Japanese heavy cruisers surpassed the KRT of other states in offensive power, speed, autonomy, seaworthiness.


And, as it turns out now, excelled even in habitability!

And in security they were not inferior. Providing a combination of the best indicators achieved in the design of their rivals.

In addition, the Japanese unexpectedly found a place on the bulky 10-story superstructure, in which all the control posts of the ship and its weapons. This solution simplified the interaction in battle and provided the posts with excellent visibility.

Why did the Japanese have such powerful ships?

All this was achieved with a standard displacement, only 15-20% higher than the established limit. Of course, this fact did not explain the gap in the characteristics.

Almost all parties to the agreement violated the 10 tons limit, but for some reason, Mioko and Takao failed. Those who decided to follow the rules received a CRT with six GC guns (York) or unsatisfactory seaworthiness and a critical stability margin (American Wichita).

A case in point is Germany, whose heavy cruiser project was created in the absence of control and strict restrictions that are mandatory for the rest of the “contractual” cruisers. The standard displacement of the Hipper exceeded 14 tons (!), But this did not help the Germans. The result was a mediocre ship in all respects.

The Japanese surpassed everyone by building powerful cruisers without flaws in the framework of the established displacement.


It’s hard to deny the obvious. "Mioko", "Takao", "Mogami" carried five towers with 10 guns of the main caliber.

"Tone" - only four towers and 8 guns, but all - in the bow! Feed “Tone” was completely given for accommodation aviation.


Unlike American or Italian TKRs, completely devoid of torpedo weapons, Japanese cruisers were always armed with 610 mm long-lance caliber.

Four protected installations for launching torpedoes weighing tens of tons. And a whole compartment, similar to the factory floor, in which the assembly / disassembly / refueling and maintenance of oxygen torpedoes was carried out. By mass, all this is like the sixth tower of the Civil Code!

The Kotpon type boiler-turbine power plant developed twice as much power as the power plants of modern atomic icebreakers.

Japanese power plants had no analogues among the power plants of other "negotiated" cruisers, surpassing them in power by 1,3 ... 1,5 times.

Cruisers of the sons of Amaterasu carried armored shells weighing from 2000 to 2400 tons. This is less than the Italian "Zara" (2700 tons) or the German "Hipper" (2500 tons), but significantly more than all the other TCRs of this era.

The mass of the French Algeria's defense elements is 1723 tons. The values ​​for Wichita and New Orleans are 1473 tons and 1508 tons, respectively (given excluding their deck armor).

Where did the Japanese find their displacement reserves?

Above we touched on all the important articles of the load, except for one element, the most massive: the case!


The Japanese cruisers body weighed significantly less than the rest of the representatives of this class. At Takao and Mogami, the hull weights were less than 30% of their standard displacement. Myoko has only 30,8%.

For comparison: the weight of the Zara’s hull was 42% of its standard displacement. Algeria has 38%. The British "York" - over 40%.

“Hipper”, despite its large size, had a traditional load distribution. Its hull (5750 tons) also accounted for more than 40% of its standard displacement.

Facilitation of Japanese TCR cases was achieved through the widespread use of 48-T titanium alloys with a yield strength of 720 MPa. Funny joke?

Dr. Yuzuru Hirag had neither titanium nor modern high-strength steels with a yield strength of 700-800 MPa. But his design team created the impossible.

The master forges his sword sometimes for months,
Speaking with him as if with his child.
And the fearless hero comes out of the horn,
Or maybe a killer with a slanting curve.


The Imperial Navy heavy cruisers had two hull features. One of them is visible even with the naked eye.

This lack of a forecastle and wave-like bends of the upper deck. The hull, being high in the area of ​​the stem, smoothly "sagged" in the area of ​​the towers - and again gained height in the middle part. Behind the aft towers, where nothing depended on the height of the side, the deck bent - and rushed down to the water.


Walking on the upper deck of a Japanese ship was like climbing Mount Fuji.

The British haughtily declared that such design techniques are characteristic of amateurs. But what did their opinion matter? You have seen figures and facts!

The American Navy professed a different concept: all decks should be parallel to the constructive waterline. This approach simplified serial construction.

But the Japanese did not have the opportunity to build cruisers in large series. In ten years, they had only twelve "10000-ton" cruisers of four projects.

In each of them, the masters put their souls.

The second difference between the Japanese cruisers (true for the types "Mioko" and "Takao") was a partial lack of skin.


The role of the casing and shirstreka performed armored plates, included directly in the power set of the hull.

But the Japanese did not stop there.

Where powerful plates were fastened into a single monolith, the size of the spacing was 1200 mm (spacing is the distance between adjacent frames).

For the middle part of the hull over 80-90 meters, this meant about 1,5 times less power elements than cruisers in other countries. Mass saving again!

Of course, Yuzuru Hiraga was no more stupid than you and me. In the nasal part, which undergoes significant loads on the move, the size of the spacing decreased to 600 mm. The frequency of installation of frames (and with it the strength) in this place was higher than on European and American cruisers.

Thus, Hiraga created a surprisingly light and equal-strength “sword”!

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  1. rocket757 10 February 2020 18: 19 New
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    The talent of designers, the skill of the workers, the perseverance of the military people, but ... the result is still predetermined when you do not climb into your own weight league.
    Maybe one, another ride, but then .... soup with a cat, and certainly not from a more powerful, wealthy opponent.
    And so, a lot of what they did and are doing better than all, malas!
    1. CTABEP 10 February 2020 18: 54 New
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      Because, by the end of the war, Americans had in their fleet a dozen magnificent “samurai swords” (minus losses, of course):
      2 Pensacola
      6 Northamptons
      2 Portland
      7 New Orleans
      1 Wichita
      and of course 13 Battlelimors, which were built at the end of the war for 2 years, and in terms of their parameters they were clearly not inferior to the Japanese.
      Parallel decks, moderate speed compared to the enemy, no 610-mm torpedoes, ice cream machines - and well-functioning production that bakes these ships like hot cakes, faster than the samurai could drown them, even in the best scenario.
      1. rocket757 10 February 2020 19: 15 New
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        The vast majority even with average quality! In addition, when the Yankees military industrial complex began to work to its fullest, they sharply progressed and began to do everything at a high technological and design level.
        1. Narak-zempo 11 February 2020 09: 53 New
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          Quote: rocket757
          The vast majority even with average quality! In addition, when the Yankees military industrial complex began to work to its fullest, they sharply progressed and began to do everything at a high technological and design level.

          Ay-ah-ah, what do you say? But what about “Thompson,” which didn’t break through two quilted jackets, and “Sherman,” on which armor missed half a half laughing
          1. rocket757 11 February 2020 10: 23 New
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            In addition to want to do, you must be ABLE to do. They did not have such an advanced tank design school, as in Europe! Before that, they did not have EXPERIENCE and REQUIREMENTS to break through deeply echeloned, well-fortified defense lines, as they always fought in the European theater of war!
            There were dashing designers, enthusiasts ... but they lacked PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE!
            Well with small arms! Who needed machines that were designed for trench warfare and security battalions, like the Germans, i.e. maximum fire density at short range ... they had a CAVALERY, which machine guns like ... were not needed, they had a little trench infantry!
            In general, for the time being, it was NOT NECESSARY for them, respectively, and there were no experienced designers for that type of armament.
            Tanks and self-propelled guns, by the end of the war they did, albeit raw, but with a request for high performance characteristics! Moreover, they equipped them with high quality, the fact that they had the highest class!
            They didn’t do a good machine ... yes.
            In general, they did massively, efficiently, what they did FOR A LONG TIME! But after all, EVERYONE HAS!
            You can’t underestimate this ... the Yankees, they can present very unpleasant surprises to the enemy!
            1. Narak-zempo 11 February 2020 11: 00 New
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              Actually, that was the irony.
              1. rocket757 11 February 2020 11: 04 New
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                Non problems, irony, so irony ....
                By the way, Thompson submachine gun, an enviable prize in any collection of weapons.
                1. meandr51 12 February 2020 13: 28 New
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                  Yes, and do not care that he does not penetrate the Russian padded jacket from 100 m ...
                  1. Narak-zempo 13 February 2020 08: 32 New
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                    Ready to check on yourself? laughing
                    1. meandr51 13 February 2020 14: 24 New
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                      You can do it too. There will be no difference.
            2. meandr51 12 February 2020 13: 33 New
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              And the Vietnamese can do it with surprises ...
            3. fk7777777 1 March 2020 18: 56 New
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              Yes, they still have tanks in the cavalry ....
              1. rocket757 1 March 2020 19: 26 New
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                There is such a thing .... but this is a tribute to tradition.
                The army, a very conservative structure, in any country.
          2. vadim dok 11 February 2020 17: 43 New
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            Of course, these "Shermans" shit, Only G.K.Zhukov did not know about this! In the Army advancing in Berlin, there were 25–35% of these “Sherman” “useless”!
          3. vadim dok 11 February 2020 17: 48 New
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            Of course, these “Shermans” are complete shit! It’s a pity that G.K. Zhukov didn’t know! In the Army that attacked and took Berlin, there were 25–35% of “Shermans” of all armored vehicles!
            1. rocket757 12 February 2020 07: 17 New
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              Quote: vadim dok
              Of course, these Shermans are complete

              The Sherman tank corresponded to the time when it was being designed, to the theater for which it was being prepared and to the design skill and experience that existed. He MEETS what was needed at that time. It was a normal tank, but ceased to correspond in many respects by the end of the war! By the way, like many other military equipment of ALL participants in that war!
              This is normal, usually, because by the end of such a long war (by then standards), the technology of ALL was developing !!! It has become an order of magnitude ... changed, by all, technically developed participants in that confrontation.
            2. zvonix April 23 2020 21: 37 New
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              In the USSR, during the Second World War, 4063 Sherman were sent. It got 3664 alive to our territory. Only during the war period 57349 domestic tanks were built at our plants. This is only 6.3%. No need to take numbers from the ceiling.
        2. Usher 12 February 2020 06: 30 New
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          Quote: rocket757
          The vast majority even with average quality! In addition, when the Yankees military industrial complex began to work to its fullest, they sharply progressed and began to do everything at a high technological and design level.

          Double standarts:
          As for the "mattresses", this is a conveyor belt, average in quality. but a lot.
          As about the USSR, they threw hats like this.
          1. rocket757 12 February 2020 07: 22 New
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            Quote: Usher
            Double standarts:

            WHERE?
            Quote: Usher
            As for the "mattresses", this is a conveyor belt, average in quality.

            When and where did he write this?
            Quote: Usher
            As about the USSR, they threw hats like this.

            Hot ONE example lead .....
            PS .... try to compare
            Quote: Usher
            average in quality. but a lot.

            with what is written
            Quote: rocket757
            with average quality!

            is it the same or not?
            1. Usher 12 February 2020 07: 34 New
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              This is me in general about the temperature in the ward, I do not personally contact you. And he answered so to speak in the subject of your comment. There is such a tendency. When it comes to the massive fleet / US Army with mediocre performance characteristics. Or good performance characteristics, but at a higher price, which does not negate mass (more money). That all at once agree with the axiom: In war, quantity wins, not quality. And they nod at the Germans, they say look.
              But as soon as the T-34, MiG-21, BMP-1/2, T-54/55, etc. are mentioned. So right away, "cans", junk, they drop their hats, women give birth and everything like that. As an American, it’s a priori better, like ours so trash at once. Although at that moment when they appeared. All this technique was massive and in a spherical vacuum would press lyuli to classmates from the United States.
              1. rocket757 12 February 2020 08: 19 New
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                Quote: Usher
                All this technique was massive.

                You just need to figure out what gives the principle of mass.
                What are the negative aspects, what are the positive ones. Who and how it happens.
                Here is the averaging of "brains" is good or bad ??? Where and how is this manifested?
                The question, by the way, is a complex, multifaceted and the same simple answer to it, can only be given with .... "average" brains, probably.
        3. meandr51 12 February 2020 13: 27 New
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          This is because no one has ever bombed, occupied or suppressed the supply routes. But something tells me that this will not always be ...
        4. Jager 9 May 2020 12: 16 New
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          About the same thing can be said about the armored vehicles of the USSR in relation to Germany. The quality is much lower, but so far the Germans are collecting one Pz in one shift. IV, ours in three shifts without days off rivet 10 T-70 or a pair of T-34. Well, then the quality came.
          1. rocket757 9 May 2020 12: 20 New
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            If the project has a qualitative advantage, it can quite successfully be implemented in a large, stable series.
    2. seti 10 February 2020 19: 54 New
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      The author is too convinced that the Japanese cruisers are the best in the world and are trying to inspire this thought to everyone else. But this is not the case, to say the least.
      I agree that they had the largest airborne salvo among "classmates" due to an additional tower. All the same, 10 guns are better against 8 or 9. The best torpedo armament is designed for use primarily in a night battle. Great speed and good range.
      Talk about the flaws.
      Extremely heavy overload of an excessively light body. Vibration of the body at full speed and excessive flooding in even not very fresh weather. Very poor stability due to overload and as a result the armor belt was hidden under water .. A huge setting added a shift in the center of gravity and excessive windage, which is clearly not a plus. Well, due to her, the silhouette of the ship grew. Not entirely successful guns of the main caliber - large dispersion at long distances. I’ll tactfully keep silent about the “habitability” you praised on Japanese ships. Not a good fire control system.
      So to say that the Japanese shopping malls are the best - well, there are doubts. They turned out to be the best at the first stage of the war due to surprise, excellent training of Japanese crews, competently assigned combat missions and torpedo weapons.

      And starting from the second stage of the war, they have already turned into prey. After all, not one type of ship is fighting, but all at once, including aviation and submarines. Torpedo weapons from dignity turned into a grave.
      I forgot to remind the author that among classmates, Japanese cruisers had the largest displacement that violated the contract by almost 45%! Nobody had that much.
      Yes, the Japanese had good TCs - in some respects they were superior to some in some respects but lost to others. And as it turned out, the TC class itself lost in time.
      1. Engineer 10 February 2020 20: 26 New
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        Full Body Vibration

        There is evidence that vibration at full speed interferes with the implementation of the BZ?
        Very poor stability due to overload and as a result the armor belt was hidden under water

        Nevertheless, survivability is good, which means stability is not so bad.
        Not entirely successful guns of the main caliber - large dispersion at long distances.

        Battle of the Komandorski Islands distance of 20 km. Hit though single.
        Fight in the Java Sea starting distance 124 cab. Hit
        I forgot to remind the author that among classmates, Japanese cruisers had the largest displacement that violated the contract by almost 45%

        The contract limited the standard displacement, and you bring the full.
        I’ll tactfully keep silent about the “habitability” you praised on Japanese ships.

        Why be silent if you have something to say? This is an interesting topic.
        Not a good fire control system.

        6 meter rangefinders is not enough? Who is better? (Except for Hipper)
        1. seti 10 February 2020 20: 55 New
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          Quote: Engineer
          Full Body Vibration

          There is evidence that vibration at full speed interferes with the implementation of the BZ?
          Very poor stability due to overload and as a result the armor belt was hidden under water

          Nevertheless, survivability is good, which means stability is not so bad.
          Not entirely successful guns of the main caliber - large dispersion at long distances.

          Battle of the Komandorski Islands distance of 20 km. Hit though single.
          Fight in the Java Sea starting distance 124 cab. Hit
          I forgot to remind the author that among classmates, Japanese cruisers had the largest displacement that violated the contract by almost 45%

          The contract limited the standard displacement, and you bring the full.
          I’ll tactfully keep silent about the “habitability” you praised on Japanese ships.

          Why be silent if you have something to say? This is an interesting topic.
          Not a good fire control system.

          6 meter rangefinders is not enough? Who is better? (Except for Hipper)

          Of course there is something to say. In your opinion, the vibration is not the most durable case is this good? This is very dangerous and interferes even with the knowledge base and arguing with that is stupid.
          - By survivability - depending on where and what the hit will be. Let me remind you that the main armored belt under water, the Achilles place where there are torpedo tubes and ammunition. Weak deck booking. Inadequate anti-aircraft weapons.
          - The hits you brought are exceptions to the rule. Other TCs of other countries also fired, and someone better. The Japanese themselves changed the original 200 mm guns to 203 mm not from a good life. And all one of the latter had mediocre accuracy and great dispersion, as their chief designer Tiyokita Hata mentioned.
          - Well, about the displacement in general laughter. In your opinion, you can limit only the standard displacement, forgetting for the full? Mom, keep me in the chair. 45% is not just a big advantage in the class of ships. It is almost a guarantee of victory.
          - habitability is all one worthless. Yes, on the latest versions of Japanese shopping malls, it has improved. This is a fact. Additional ventilation units were added, modern refrigerators appeared, and the space for 1 sailor also increased slightly. But why has it improved? Because the crew was smaller than on previous types. Because the displacement was greater. There was an operational experience. But then again, this applies to the last two types of TCs. What about the first two?
          If we take their opponents, for the most part, Japanese TCs in terms of habitability lost to both American and German and English TCs.
          It is not enough to have a 6 meter rangefinder. They had everything. It is necessary to have a developed fire control system, and some people have radio radars (the British then Germans and Americans).
          1. Engineer 10 February 2020 21: 51 New
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            . In your opinion, the vibration is not the most durable case is this good?

            In my opinion, the ship ALWAYS vibrates, especially at full speed. Only the degree of vibration is different. I have never met evidence that the vibrations of the Japanese TCR were so strong that they interfered in the battle. Hence the danger seems to me exaggerated.
            Weak deck booking.

            Who is better? Hipper, Baltimore, Zara. Who else?
            Inadequate anti-aircraft weapons.

            It is insufficient for all pre-war ships.
            Other TCs of other countries also fired, and someone better.

            Only Eugen in the Danish Strait was better shot from memory. With the "battleship" SLA for Kofman and the price of half Bismarck
            Well, about the displacement in general laughter. In your opinion, you can limit only the standard displacement, forgetting for the full? Mom, keep me in the chair. 45% is not just a big advantage in the class of ships.

            I think you are distorting. The Japanese had no 45% handicap.
            Takao, even after modernization before the war, had 12 tons of standard
            Mogami 12
            Total 20-25% of the advantage over the limit as the author of the article wrote.
            habitability is all one worthless

            Where does the data come from? Is there a comparison, for example, on the County there are so many m2, and on the mogs so much?
            But then again, this applies to the last two types of TCs. What about the first two?

            The first two types are not called a masterpiece.
            It is not enough to have a 6 meter rangefinder. They had everything.

            No, not all.
            Here is the assessment of the Japanese MSA on TKR
            The characteristics of the SUAO (according to the most conservative estimate, were not inferior to the SUAO of cruisers of other countries. The development and adoption of the "Type 98 Delay Delay Device" minimized the dispersion of shells in the salvo, which ensured excellent firing accuracy. The duplication of the SUAO was minimized Two center sight sighters, one main range finder and two range finders in the high towers of the bow and stern groups. One counting and decisive device. This minimum was generally in line with world practice and only the Germans arranged for their cruise Era full duplication of the SUAO.

            some who had and radar

            Radars did not give Americans the benefits right up to 43 years. Real fights put everything in its place
            1. seti 10 February 2020 22: 01 New
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              You can argue endlessly. But one thing is clear - the best Japanese shopping malls can not be called. In what they lost in what they won. They drown everyone and drown everyone. It is also important for what exactly and for what conditions this or that ship is created. Price quality.
              The fact that you cite other sources is refuted. And official. Including the issue of displacement, gun installations GK. The Japanese sailors themselves did not like their TCs, including according to habitability conditions - they called them aquariums.
              Personally, I like Japanese Takao and Meco purely aesthetically. But I am for objectivity.
              1. Engineer 10 February 2020 22: 08 New
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                It is also important for what exactly and for what conditions this or that ship is created. Price quality.

                Japanese TKRs were built for battle, especially at night, with reliance on torpedoes as well. Expectations came true. It turned out great killers, including classmates.
                I’m afraid to disappoint you, but in the price-quality ratio Japanese ships in most cases will not be equal
                Here is just a separate example.
                The contract value of each order for a Mogami-type cruiser was 24,9 million yen [45] (at a rate of 4,2675 yen per US dollar). The construction of Belfast cost 2,141 million fnl. Art. (at a rate of 0,2 £ per US dollar) the last “Brooklyn” cost $ 25 million

                Baltimore, by the way, 40 Lyamov.
                The fact that you cite other sources is refuted. And official

                What I have listed is checked elementarily, including according to official sources
                1. seti 10 February 2020 22: 12 New
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                  So I did not say that Japanese shopping malls are the most expensive. They worked 100% in comparison with the TC of other countries. I'm talking about the error that they say the best of the best. This is not the case - explanations of why are higher.

                  If we take the hypothetical duel of the German “Prince Eugen” and the same “Takao” I would bet on the German.
                  1. Engineer 10 February 2020 22: 17 New
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                    They worked 100% in comparison with the TC of other countries.

                    At least some agreement.) On the contribution they are the best.
                    I'm talking about the error that they are the most.

                    And here we fix the discrepancy.
                    Yapi are the best in terms of the amount of characteristics. In terms of price and quality, they are ABSOLUTELY the best.
                    1. seti 10 February 2020 22: 25 New
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                      It reminds fans of tayot. Here they are the best and all. We do not consider other opinions .. And the fact that they are not the same are rotting, and much more is already without attention.
                      1. Engineer 10 February 2020 22: 31 New
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                        Hipper Porsche Cayenne
                        Takao-king
                        Mogami-Akura
                        Baltimore ?????
                      2. SASHA OLD 16 February 2020 00: 03 New
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                        Quote: Engineer
                        Hipper Porsche Cayenne
                        Takao-king
                        Mogami-Akura
                        Baltimore ?????

                        Ford .., just Ford)
                      3. Engineer 16 February 2020 18: 43 New
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                        Rather, the top tesla)
              2. Engineer 10 February 2020 22: 22 New
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                If we take the hypothetical duel of the German “Prince Eugen” and the same “Takao” I would bet on the German.

                There is nothing to argue)
                In a duel, Hipper and Mogami would put on Hipper
      2. Simargl 11 February 2020 02: 58 New
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        Quote: seti
        - The hits you brought are exceptions to the rule. Other TCs of other countries also shot and someone better.
        Can you decide? Also shot, or exceptions to the rules?

        Quote: seti
        The Japanese themselves changed the original 200 mm guns to 203 mm not from a good life
        Actually, from 155 to 203, and they were going to do it right after the start of the war, when restrictions could not be spit. The cross-sectional area of ​​the caliber is 1,7 times different, respectively, and the mass of the projectile is doubled.

        Quote: seti
        - Well, about the displacement in general laughter.
        Laughter, laughter, but the standard was taken into account. All. Because, as it was spelled out in the contract.

        Quote: seti
        some who had and radar
        They all had from the middle of WWII.
  2. vadim dok 11 February 2020 17: 51 New
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    How many Japanese cruisers died from the explosion of their own torpedoes!
  3. Usher 12 February 2020 06: 43 New
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    Quote: seti
    Very poor stability due to overload and as a result the armor belt was hidden under water.

    A contradictory statement, stability is poor due to excessive upper weight, then. As was the case with the American Clevelands
    Not entirely successful guns of the main caliber - large dispersion at long distances

    On the contrary, the Japanese are the only ones who hit cruisers at long distances. I don’t remember something about the rest, usually the distances were less.
    I’ll tactfully keep silent about the “habitability” you praised on Japanese ships

    Have you read the article? This is another myth, do you need a bidet in latrine and a cola machine with ice cream? This is a warship, not a cruise ship.
    Not a good fire control system.

    And whoever had it better, only the “Hipper” only just because she was excessive there.
    So to say that the Japanese shopping malls are the best - well, there are doubts. They turned out to be the best at the first stage of the war due to surprise, excellent training of Japanese crews, competently assigned combat missions and torpedo weapons.

    Well, this is a consequence of the doctrine of the fleet, that is, the strategy with which ships with the corresponding performance characteristics were built. What are you just kneading the air with empty words?
    And starting from the second stage of the war, they have already turned into prey. After all, not one type of ship is fighting, but all at once, including aviation and submarines. Torpedo weapons from dignity turned into a grave.

    And here it is, I did not understand. "Hedgehog" it is clear that the fleet is fighting together, apparently the Japanese were going to the squadrons from the bulds. And at Pearl Harbor, everyone accidentally got together. And where does the torpedo? For me it would be better if they were lowered to the deck below and covered a little better, and would not take spare torpedoes. And there would be no problem.
    And as it turned out, the TC class itself lost in time

    I'm sorry, what? What are you talking about? Somehow I lost, we have fought a ship class turns out to be. What kind of children's judgments?
  • tihonmarine 10 February 2020 18: 20 New
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    Japanese TKR, the finest ships, flight of thought of the middle of the 20th century. You can only envy.
  • Alexey RA 10 February 2020 18: 20 New
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    2. "The team slept exclusively in hanging bunks." Large Japanese ships, starting with the cruisers of Project No. C-37, prepared in the summer of 1931 (Mogami type), were equipped with three-tier stationary bunks for personnel.

    This was written in 2006 on Tsushima.
    In 2017, Vladimir clarified the issue of berths in LJ - the berths were suspended. But compared to hammocks and lockers, a hanging berth on a rigid frame was a significant step forward. And the Japanese made him second.
    Somewhere until the end of the 20s. of the last century, hammocks everywhere served as sleeping places for lower ranks on ships of all fleets (and some of the people slept on the covers of lockers for things, if any). The hammock was very simple to manufacture and handle, it did not require specially adapted living quarters (it can be suspended almost everywhere, in casemates, corridors, workshops), it was checked by time, but progress did not stand still and for ordinary members it was thought up a rigid frame, which is considered more convenient and healthy for the spine. Such a berth is a rectangular, metal frame, which is filled with some kind of "placeholder" - we will conditionally call it that. This can be a panel of durable canvas (tarpaulin), which is attached to the frame with hooks or just an ordinary cord (like old Soviet folding beds, if one of the comrades found them). It can be a weave of leather or rubber belts. This can be a grid of metal hooks and ringlets (like old Soviet panzer beds, if one of the comrades found them).
    As far as I know, the first of the large fleets to introduce hanging bunks was the American one. But second, second, it seemed, was Japanese. The Japanese Navy thought about hanging bays on a rigid frame in the second half of the 20s, and introduced them on cruisers of the Mogami type of the 1st Fleet Replenishment Program (Maru Iti), 1931.
    Since that time, the crew’s cockpits on large Japanese surface ships (battleships, aircraft carriers, cruisers, floating bases) were equipped with hanging bunks.
    Such a berth in the Japanese fleet was a tubular metal frame with a length of 1850 mm and a width of 600 mm, tightened with a tight tarp (in Japanese terminology - canvas No. 1, the same as that used to make hammock panels). The bunks were usually suspended in three (sometimes two) tiers, and in the daytime they could be pulled “stacked” under the ceiling, freeing up the space of the cubicle. Along with the introduction of hanging beds, lockers were eliminated (which were now no longer needed), and lockers were introduced to store uniforms and other things. However, a complete replacement did not happen and the hammocks were partially preserved on large ships. Smaller ships (destroyers, minesweepers, gunboats) preserved the traditional system with hammocks and lockers. You can, of course, blame the Japanese for not bringing the progressive initiative to its logical end, but remember that such “progressive” European fleets as the British or French did not have bunks for lower ranks even on the latest battleships and aircraft carriers. About the smaller ships and no speech.
    I won’t even talk about the presence of normal galleys, large chambers, baths, infirmaries, laundries, and even lemonade production machines on large Japanese ships, this goes without saying ...
    © Vladimir Sidorenko
  • lucul 10 February 2020 18: 21 New
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    Where did the Japanese find their displacement reserves?

    In the completely unsatisfactory armor of the GK towers, there’s simply nothing for the heavy cruiser
    ..
    1. ABM
      ABM 10 February 2020 18: 31 New
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      and they were right - not a single cruiser, as I recall, was killed for this reason! and they were destroyed almost all
      1. lucul 10 February 2020 18: 40 New
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        and they were right - not a single cruiser, as I recall, was killed for this reason!

        They did not have a confrontation with classmates. Even the destroyer with its 120mm GK could disable all the towers of the Japanese heavy cruisers - there are a measly 25 mm in total.
        And the second - the Japanese cruisers "did not hold" the wave, that is, fraud with the structure crawled sideways and in bad weather, the waves deformed the hull.
        1. knn54 10 February 2020 20: 08 New
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          Yes, and the air defense is weak, initially only four 127 mm guns. The truth was later added 26 mm sparks. Plus a pair of sparks of 13 mm machine guns.
        2. Usher 12 February 2020 06: 46 New
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          Quote: lucul
          and they were right - not a single cruiser, as I recall, was killed for this reason!

          They did not have a confrontation with classmates. Even the destroyer with its 120mm GK could disable all the towers of the Japanese heavy cruisers - there are a measly 25 mm in total.
          And the second - the Japanese cruisers "did not hold" the wave, that is, fraud with the structure crawled sideways and in bad weather, the waves deformed the hull.

          deformed, deformed and still not deformed.
      2. CTABEP 10 February 2020 18: 58 New
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        So they died mostly not in artillery battles. In general, the main mistake of the Japanese as a result is the very fact of the presence of torpedoes on their heavy cruisers - they died from them more often than they successfully drowned someone.
    2. Grossvater 10 February 2020 18: 33 New
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      Yes, but, given the large number of towers, the high speed of the ships and the proposed tactics, it can be considered justified. Immediately all the towers will not demolish. Even having lost one, two, the cruiser will still have sufficient firepower. If it smells fried, you can always take advantage of the speed and dump.
      Actually, the solution is far from new, just the Japanese have benefited from it as much as possible.
      1. lucul 10 February 2020 18: 43 New
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        Yes, but, given the large number of towers, the high speed of the ships and the proposed tactics, it can be considered justified

        That is, in fact, they created a large destroyer with weapons from the cruiser.
        1. Grossvater 10 February 2020 19: 58 New
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          Uh ... No! The destroyer is completely unarmored, and the hull of the Japanese cruiser is well protected!
    3. Santa Fe 10 February 2020 18: 45 New
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      But how does this answer to the question with the necessary stock of displacement ??

      If for this reason the Japanese towers were lighter than others. But no!


      Despite ballistic reservations, the Japanese towers remained massive structures (in the region of 170 tons), because the mass of the tower is determined not only and not so much by booking. Especially the same as it was with the contract cruisers
      --------

      Point 2. Who was satisfactory?

      The capabilities of the negotiated cruiser did not allow the installation of a tower capable of withstanding bombs and shells of caliber 6 and even more so 8 ''

      Even the Americans have a powerful armor plate, but the same thin rear and roof

      The Japanese turret reservation scheme had one advantage - armor-piercing shells pierced them right through, eliminating severe consequences
      1. lucul 10 February 2020 18: 52 New
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        The Japanese turret reservation scheme had one advantage - armor-piercing shells pierced them right through, eliminating severe consequences

        Just like our armor-piercing shells in the Tsushima battle - due to the unsatisfactory booking of Japanese ships - the shells flew right through - the detonators simply did not cock.
        But how did this solve the issue of the necessary stock of displacement ??

        I do not want to say that the Japanese cruisers were not bad, everything is relatively good there.
        But the best heavy cruisers of World War II, I think, are American cruisers like Baltimore.
        1. Santa Fe 10 February 2020 18: 56 New
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          I’ll say more, Baltimore was not so much the best as the ONLY heavy cruiser project implemented during the war years.

          Naturally, with its size, many fatal flaws of its predecessors with artificially limited displacement could be resolved.
          1. lucul 10 February 2020 19: 00 New
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            Naturally, with its size, many fatal flaws of its predecessors with artificially limited displacement could be resolved.

            For all my dislike of amers, I have to admit that only the Americans were able to design and build a cruiser so quickly, taking into account all the design errors that the war showed.
            And so, the Mogami type is certainly one of the best cruisers - one propulsion system of 150 hp is worth it.
            1. Ross xnumx 10 February 2020 19: 35 New
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              Quote: lucul
              For all my dislike of amers, I have to admit that only the Americans were able to design and build a cruiser so quickly, taking into account all the design errors that the war showed.

              However, with this “dislike” one should not turn a blind eye to the fact that not a single bomb fell on the territory of the North American continent ...
        2. kapitan92 10 February 2020 19: 22 New
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          Quote: lucul
          Just like our armor-piercing shells in the Tsushima battle - due to the unsatisfactory booking of Japanese ships - the shells flew right through - the detonators simply did not cock.

          Vitaliy, hi I am far from a sailor, but do not write nonsense. No offense!
          Russian armor-piercing shell was equipped with pyroxylin, and so that it would not detonate when the armor was pierced, it was moistened by 30–35%. To undermine such moistened pyroxylin is not an easy task in itself, and here also the moistening of the fuse itself. The fuse is in the armor-piercing shell bottom. When fired, the water that moistened pyroxylin was collected in the bottom of the projectile, the fuse was not moistened and detonated to its full potential, which is why wet pyroxylin might not detonate. So, during the Gull incident, the Aurora cruiser hit a 75-mm shell, and this shell only had its bottom torn off, otherwise it remained intact. That is, the fuse worked, but not the explosive.
          . The funds of the Russian State Archive of the Navy have an interesting correspondence dating back to 1904. In it, the director of a state-owned plant producing fuses complains to the chief inspector of naval artillery about a violation of production technology. And instead of clearly defining its position, the MTK is simply silent. Looking through the MTK magazines, one can often find examples of fuses from fuses. So, in the course of firing on February 16, 1904, five of the eight new 152-mm armor-piercing shells fired did not explode due to the fault of the fuses. hi
          1. Grossvater 10 February 2020 20: 02 New
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            And it seems like the 75 mm Kane BB did not have shells at all? Only armor-piercing blank?
            1. Alexandra 11 February 2020 00: 32 New
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              There were three types of steel armor-piercing shells for the 75 mm Kane gun: a sample of 1892, a sample of 1898, and a sample of 1902. Only in the latter was an explosive charge of 50 grams of smokeless gunpowder. This charge was enough to "just tear the bottom." There were also 75 mm cast-iron shells with a bursting charge of smoke powder.

              http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/cherkasov_vn/01.html

              "Our shells are filled with smoky powder (cast iron), smokeless (12-dm and small) and pyroxylin (10-dm, 8-dm and 6-dm)."

              By the way, the explosive charge of the pressed molded pieces of wet pyroxylin in the case was used only in the so-called "high-explosive" 10-dm, 8-dm and 6-dm and 120 mm shells. In armor-piercing shells of the same calibers there was a bursting charge of smokeless gunpowder.
        3. Rurikovich 10 February 2020 19: 53 New
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          Quote: lucul
          But the best heavy cruisers of World War II, I think, are American cruisers like Baltimore.

          Yeah, only the Americans began to design it in the 39th, when no one complied with the agreement with the start of the war. Therefore, 14 tons of displacement can be shoved much more than the contractual 500 tons. standard wink
        4. Hog
          Hog 11 February 2020 09: 55 New
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          Why not compare Furutaka and Des Moines, and then conclude that the latter is better?
          Japanese TKr were created in the interwar period and they a priori cannot be rivals to ships built at the end of the war.
          Orleans just fit, but call them the best language does not turn.
  • Sasha_rulevoy 10 February 2020 18: 36 New
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    As for the size of the cubicles and three-tier beds - this is the routine of that time.


    The Americans on the battleships for ordinary four-tier folding beds. There are no lockers, instead of them a bag for things, stick wherever you want.

    But on the battleships of the First World War there are no cockpits either, four tiers of folding beds are attached to bulkheads in the corridors, the battery deck and the most unexpected places of the ship.



    The first photo is Missouri, the second is Texas.
    1. Lamata 10 February 2020 18: 45 New
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      climb down from 4 tiers torment
      1. Freeman 10 February 2020 20: 05 New
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        Quote: Lamata
        climb down from 4 tiers torment


        The height is comparable to the 2nd tier army bed, in which the height of the second shelf from the floor is 140-150 cm.

        At the "sea" beds, the distance between the shelves is 40 cm. Plus the 1st tier, about 10-15 cm from the floor.
        Total - the same 140-150 cm.

        Photo from Massachusetts
        1. Lamata 10 February 2020 20: 40 New
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          Ok, thanks, but a bit cramped. Although the nikottamos in full force did not sleep, I guess.
      2. Sasha_rulevoy 10 February 2020 20: 52 New
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        Quote: Lamata
        climb down from 4 tiers


        The best place was considered in the upper tier, and the worst in the lower. Because the one who got down from the top bunk stepped on sequentially on the bunks and shook his friends below.
        1. Lamata 10 February 2020 20: 57 New
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          Hmm, and when he served in the SA, the lower place was more credible, the young were sleeping on top. But in Turkmenistan, on the contrary, it was better to go upstairs.
  • Tochilka 10 February 2020 18: 40 New
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    A little off topic, but I read everything about the Japanese fleet of that time. During the war they lost all their battleships, heavy and battle cruisers. In addition to two that were under repair at the end of the war.
    1. Santa Fe 10 February 2020 19: 14 New
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      Of the 16 heavy cruisers, no one survived to the end of the war.

      Of those that were afloat, the allies got only the ruins of Mioko with torn stern, turned into an anti-aircraft floating battery

      Of the light cruisers EMNIP only Sakava survived

      Of the battleships, Nagato (Ivo kept it on sight at the hour of signing the surrender)

      Both ships subsequently became targets of nuclear tests.
  • 3x3zsave 10 February 2020 18: 51 New
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    the Mogami cruiser had 70 ventilation units with a total capacity of 194 liters. from.
    I terribly apologize to the respected Author, but it always seemed to me that the performance of the ventilation system is not measured in the total horsepower of the service engines, but in cubic meters of shoveling air.
    1. Santa Fe 10 February 2020 19: 14 New
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      Right. But I only met such figures and facts pertaining to the subject under discussion.
      1. 3x3zsave 10 February 2020 19: 25 New
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        Thank you for your reply, Oleg!
        In evaluating the effectiveness of life support systems, it always makes sense to rely on user feedback. Although, with the Japanese, it is difficult.
    2. Ross xnumx 10 February 2020 19: 31 New
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      Quote: 3x3zsave
      I terribly apologize to the respected Author, but it always seemed to me,

      And do not apologize - we must be baptized, if it seems.
      The author wrote about the power ...
      You could put it in front of you if the phrase was written like this:
      the Mogami cruiser had 70 ventilation overall performance units 194 l. from.

      It is the engine power and the performance of the ventilation unit itself that are advantageous by inverse proportionality: at lower power, greater productivity.
      hi
      1. 3x3zsave 10 February 2020 19: 43 New
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        Thank you for your kind words! I always cross when I work with ventilation.
      2. Undecim 10 February 2020 21: 39 New
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        And do not apologize - we must be baptized, if it seems.
        Having crossed, we ask the question - how is the figure “total power 194 hp” characterizing the efficiency of the ship’s ventilation systems? What is this figure about?
        1. Santa Fe 10 February 2020 22: 31 New
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          About the same as your number
          An appeal to Japanese sources gives a figure of 1,5 - 1,6 sq.m. per person

          We cannot draw any comparative conclusions from them. How many classmates were there?

          The number and power of air handling unit drives is nothing more than an interesting fact. But he at least testifies that the Japanese paid attention to the artificial ventilation of residential premises. And they radically improved its quality on each new type of ship (the previous Takao had 66 units, drive power -103 hp)
          1. Undecim 10 February 2020 23: 40 New
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            We cannot draw any comparative conclusions from them. How many classmates were there?
            Congenial !!! Dear author, you made an amazing conclusion - the numbers themselves do not mean anything, they must be compared!
            And on the basis of what comparisons do you authoritatively declare in bold that Japanese ships were the most comfortable and cozy!?
            And then declare exactly the same Japanese heavy cruisers surpassed the KRT of other states in offensive power, speed, autonomy, seaworthiness.without giving any comparative data with "classmates".
            How do you refute yourself, don’t you? Or will you say that there are many unwilling to kiss the Japanese boot, as last time?
            1. Santa Fe 10 February 2020 23: 51 New
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              without giving any comparative data with "classmates".

              So well-known fact that it’s not even interesting to talk about him N times

              Those that were little known were voiced (for example, habitability standards in comparison with the Italian fleet). Or a lot of protection
              1. Undecim 11 February 2020 00: 11 New
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                What fact is known? What "Japanese ships were the most comfortable and cozy"?
                And the mention of the fact that Italian ships intended for operations exclusively in the Mediterranean Sea had to be insulated in the presence of winter is a comparison of habitability standards?
                The question in this case is not what step the Japanese will occupy among the heavy cruisers of the Second World War. In something they surpassed their opponents, in something they were inferior.
                The question is a comparative analysis, which as such is missing. There is a slogan "Japanese ships are the most ..."
                1. Santa Fe 11 February 2020 03: 10 New
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                  What fact is known?

                  Here's a
                  And then declare exactly the same Japanese heavy cruisers surpassed the KRT of other states in offensive power, speed, autonomy, seaworthiness.

                  This moment seemed to you controversial

                  Only there everything is so obvious that it’s boring to discuss
                2. Usher 12 February 2020 06: 52 New
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                  Quote: Undecim
                  And the mention of the fact that Italian ships intended for operations exclusively in the Mediterranean Sea had to be insulated in the presence of winter is a comparison of habitability standards?

                  What are you reading? With your fingers?
            2. The comment was deleted.
      3. The comment was deleted.
  • K-50 10 February 2020 19: 17 New
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    All this was achieved with a standard displacement, only 15-20% higher than the established limit.

    In fact, up to 50% reached. lol
    It is not so difficult to surpass the enemy this time, because they did not give a damn about all the agreements. lol
    Myoko type Kreeser
    Displacement: standard / full
    Initially:
    10 980/14 194 t [1]
    After the upgrade:
    12 342/15 933 t [2]
    Tacao Cruiser:
    Displacement Initially: 11 t (standard),
    15 186 (full) [1]
    After modernization: 15 875 (full) [2] hi
    1. Santa Fe 10 February 2020 19: 23 New
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      The contract referred to the standard, and you gave the values ​​of the full displacement
      1. seti 10 February 2020 21: 14 New
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        Do you believe what you said? The violation is more than serious. All or almost all cheated. In different years in different ways. But the Japanese with their 45% surpassed everyone. This gave their ships a decisive advantage at least for a while. They took full advantage of this - a question without a clear answer.
        1. Santa Fe 10 February 2020 21: 32 New
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          Once again, you are comparing different values, warm with soft

          Total displacement of Japanese SRT and standard displacement of the rest

          Then compare 14-15 tons of total displacement of the Japanese with a total displacement of Zara (000) or Wichita (14000)

          There could be no 45% of the difference you indicated.
          1. seti 10 February 2020 22: 04 New
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            This is if we take the Italian type of Zara. And then there is only 25-35% of the total displacement but still not 45%. And if you take for example heavy cruisers such as the York? Who will have an advantage in tonnage? And this is additional armor with a competent approach and extra trunks of guns GK and TK and other sweets.
            1. Santa Fe 10 February 2020 22: 19 New
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              What does 25-35% mean?

              Standard displacement of these units within 11-12 thousand tons

              Full 14-15 thousand

              What 45%, what are these percentages
              -------
              “York” has a standard displacement of less than 9 thousand tons

              The British did not even economically pull the contract cruiser, they could not fully use the limit (in this sense, the contract was beneficial for them, otherwise they would completely lag behind other countries that had the opportunity to build larger cruisers and who were so hindered by these restrictions)
              What happened in the end, their problems
  • svp67 10 February 2020 19: 22 New
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    "Great ships" with "excellent crews" did not save Mikado from defeat ...
  • Ross xnumx 10 February 2020 19: 23 New
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    Sometimes I just amazed by the stubborn ignorance and unwillingness of some "scribes" to admit obvious things.
    There was progress in Japan, was. And in the contours of the hulls, and in armament, and in power plants ... What are you pushing against horns? People write correctly that:
    Quote: tihonmarine
    Japanese TKR, the finest ships, flight of thought of the middle of the 20th century. You can only envy.

    It is the island location of the country that makes it weak in opposing the mainland state.
    You still tell us about the "backward" Japanese electronics, cars and motorcycles, the "dull" urban planning in the earthquake-prone zone ...
    As for the good and the quality, they have a lot of this. Sorry that history knows a lot of negative things in relations between our countries. Just because the US authorities openly “crap” us, we won’t deny the presence of their software (software) and all kinds of gadgets that are popular among the Russian population.
    hi
  • Rurikovich 10 February 2020 19: 36 New
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    Set off, Comrade Kaptsov, plus! hi
    Maybe this article will make many understand why ships with a single displacement can differ dramatically. I have recently indicated Comrade Skomorokhov, that would be a little more detailed, due to what the Japanese cruisers turned out to be such and even asked to pay attention to the hull, but ....
  • Avior 10 February 2020 19: 37 New
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    . The Imperial Navy heavy cruisers had two hull features. One of them is visible even with the naked eye.

    This lack of a forecastle and the undulating bends of the upper deck. The hull, being high in the area of ​​the stem, smoothly "sagged" in the area of ​​the towers - and again gained height in the middle part.

    Something in the photo and drawings of this is imperceptible
    Here, for example, an article with a photo about the Japanese cruisers of the respected author Oleg Kaptsov smile nine years ago.

    https://topwar.ru/33597-ieroglif-vernost-tyazhelye-kreysery-imperatorskogo-flota-yaponi.html
    As a special mountain that is not observed with the naked eye smile
    As well as the high stem in the photo in the article under the specified quote, it is also somehow not visible smile
    1. mmaxx 11 February 2020 03: 18 New
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      On the contrary, it is very noticeable. See, for example, a side photo in an article about Mogami.
      1. Avior 11 February 2020 08: 19 New
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        I looked at a lot of pictures, I didn’t see the expressed “mountains”, except for the stem, of course, but there is nothing specifically Japanese about it, as the same Africans often did
        1. Catfish 11 February 2020 13: 34 New
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          Sorry, I didn’t understand what kind of Africans we are talking about and what did they “often do”? Olepatka? hi
          1. Avior 12 February 2020 00: 48 New
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            Ochepyatka, of course, an iPhone is such a wonderful assistant to fix something on your mind, which just infuriates sometimes.
            Americans, of course.
            But the matter is not even in the Americans, they are just for comparison.
            Japanese have no profile described by the author
      2. Avior 11 February 2020 08: 27 New
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        This is Mogami

        And this is American Baltimore

        In both cases, I see only raised stem and I don’t see any other “mountains”
        hi
        1. Catfish 11 February 2020 13: 33 New
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          In the bottom photo is not the Baltimore (SA-68), but the battleship Missouri (SA-63).
          Either it’s not quite correct to compare a heavy cruiser with a battleship, or you need to carefully select photos. (No, well, if we are talking about photothen everything can be. smile
          1. Undecim 11 February 2020 20: 55 New
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            Baltimore (SA-68)
            1. Avior 12 February 2020 00: 45 New
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              Thank you for correcting, choosing from the screen "on the go", jabbing a finger at that picture that seemed "painted", the details in the small picture were not really considered.
          2. Avior 12 February 2020 00: 39 New
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            yes, there’s a mistake with the photo, I just chose “painted” from a quick group of photos, and Missouri accidentally got there.
            But this does not matter, Baltimore quoted Undecim below, thanks to him, especially since the Japanese are actually discussed, not the Americans.
            In both cases, the profiles of the Mogami and Baltimore corps are not fundamentally different.
            A high stem and a further level deck. No "mountains", like the author in the article.
            What then does Kaptsov see as a peculiarity of the Japanese?
        2. mmaxx 12 February 2020 01: 34 New
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          Enlarge the picture, take and measure (at least by) the height of the side in several places with the Japanese. The wave of the deck line is obvious.
          1. Avior 12 February 2020 06: 00 New
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            . The sheer depth of the deck means its rise from the middle of the hull (midship) to the bow and (or) stern. Dullness is provided for when designing a ship to improve its seaworthiness.

            Are you talking about this?
            So this is not a Japanese “invention”, and has nothing to do with what the author wrote about.
            Tolerance is present to one degree or another in many ships and vessels to increase seaworthiness.
            1. Santa Fe 12 February 2020 06: 51 New
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              Avior, take any photo in the profile of a Japanese cruiser or LC like Yamato. Not the one that is prettier, but where you can at least see something

              And look

              The juice itself is in the area of ​​the bow group of the main caliber towers. No one else had it
              1. Avior 12 February 2020 07: 49 New
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                Are you about deck sheer?

                There is nothing specifically Japanese about it.
                Or something else?
                Yes, some Japanese ships have a lowering toward the stern or a deck aft lower than in the middle of the ship, a reverse sheer to the stern.
                But a slight decrease in the central part of the ship, which is by no means always noticeable to the naked eye, is the usual sheer density of the deck to increase the seaworthiness of the ship, there is nothing Japanese about it.
                Take for example Tone.

                I do not see with the naked eye that there should be a pronounced and noticeable decrease in the area of ​​the bow towers of the main caliber, although, God sees, Tone has a nasal group of the main caliber more than pronounced. By the way, I also don’t see much reduction to the stern.
                Similarly, in the photo of Mogami above this, also in expressed form with the naked eye, this is not observed.
                Perhaps you should have included in the article not drawn pictures, illustrations, but a drawing or photo on the side view of the same Tone with a clearly drawn horizontal line, and even better with the size of this reduction and calculating how much it really saves weight?
                And the same for the same American cruisers, at least Baltimore, with such a well-drawn horizontal deck line, so that it was clear what the difference was and how it is expressed in numbers?
                The photo is not very noticeable.
                hi
                1. Santa Fe 12 February 2020 11: 27 New
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                  Instead of a forecastle tank, on the contrary, the VP rose to a level up in the middle of the hull, the side height was 7,75 meters (where the bow group of towers is only about 5 m high)
                  I repeat, this is not a superstructure, this is the upper deck - from side to side


                  this is the 114th frame, midship cruiser


                  In Yamato, this transition was seen as a gentle climb
                  1. Avior 12 February 2020 12: 14 New
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                    And the add-on from side to side has long been common.
                    What does not change its essence.
                    But I will not argue anymore.
                    I see no reason to continue the discussion.
                    hi
                    1. Santa Fe 12 February 2020 12: 22 New
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                      Quote: Avior
                      And the add-on from side to side has long been common.

                      This is not an add-on.

                      On all plans, this is the upper deck of the hull, which it is essentially


                      And yes, tuning from side to side is a feature of all ships since the 1980s.
              2. Avior 12 February 2020 08: 24 New
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                So that it is clear that the use of havoc and understating the stern to improve seaworthiness is not specifically the Japanese idea of ​​the Second World War for the purposes that you wrote about, but the widespread Reception of shipbuilders in general,
                I will give an example from another time

                Here, just the sheer and understatement of the stern is.
                hi
                1. Santa Fe 12 February 2020 11: 18 New
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                  The cruiser Ticonderoga has no sheer

                  What you see in the photo in the bow is a 20-meter bulwark.

                  And she also has no understatement of stern - she has a forecastle for almost the entire length of the hull. On the last meters of the stern, the freeboard height changes stepwise, the forecastle finally ends, the VP continues at a different level

                  The upper and all other decks are parallel to each other
                  1. Avior 12 February 2020 12: 11 New
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                    The flatness is visible in the area of ​​the bow UVP, there is no bulwark, which confuses.
                    The bulwark starts from the gun
                    Not clearly Tiki? Look at the spruce, there is no bulwark
                    1. Santa Fe 12 February 2020 12: 28 New
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                      All decks, platforms and superstructure levels are parallel

                      A large height in the area of ​​the stem is a barely noticeable forecastle that disappears after 30 meters, becoming perfectly exactly the upper deck - almost to the stern (marked on the diagram No. 2)
                      1. mmaxx 12 February 2020 14: 37 New
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                        The campaign has some cruel astigmatism. He does not see what is visible even to anyone.
                2. mmaxx 12 February 2020 14: 36 New
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                  Do you understand what you are writing? To make it clearer: the Japanese made the deck track the roll of the ship. With a roll, the edge of the deck almost ALL at the same time should have entered the water. Everything else was minimized to the limit of growth of the Japanese sailor.
                  1. mmaxx 12 February 2020 15: 56 New
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                    This was the notorious Japanese weight saving. Not everywhere it was possible to DECREASE the height of the side. In order not to reduce the effective height of the side, they came up with such a bend. And it is understandable why the British considered this amateurism. Because in addition to the roll, there is also trim. If there is at least some trim, then the whole concept of a wavy deck goes through the forest.
    2. Usher 12 February 2020 07: 03 New
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      I do not know what is with your eyes, but there is a photo where it is visible. And there is such a thing as an angle.
  • Catfish 10 February 2020 19: 58 New
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    In World War I, the Japanese, by agreement with the Allies, sent a destroyer flotilla to the Mediterranean Sea. So our allies drove them to patrol almost every day and were still wildly amazed at the unpretentiousness of Japanese sailors. The teams slept almost for a walk on the upper deck even in the rain. And no complaints and groans, all orders were executed immediately and implicitly.
    It's me how Japanese sailors relate to the problems with the habitability of their ships.
    Impeccable spirit and moderation in everything - such is the path of a real warrior (bushido). Therefore, it is so easy to believe that contempt for household amenities was a tradition of the Japanese fleet.

    But nothing helped, neither excellent ships, nor personal stamina and courage. The final was logical. request
    The talent of designers, the skill of the workers, the perseverance of the military people, but ... the result is still predetermined when you do not climb into your own weight league.
  • Engineer 10 February 2020 20: 03 New
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    The standard displacement of the Hipper exceeded 14 tons (!), But this did not help the Germans. The result was a mediocre ship in all respects.

    Partly agree, but only by the criterion of cost effectiveness. Hipper overprice. In a duel, Hipper and Mogami would put on Hipper
    1. Usher 12 February 2020 07: 03 New
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      Quote: Engineer
      The standard displacement of the Hipper exceeded 14 tons (!), But this did not help the Germans. The result was a mediocre ship in all respects.

      Partly agree, but only by the criterion of cost effectiveness. Hipper overprice. In a duel, Hipper and Mogami would put on Hipper

      Yah)))
  • dgonni 10 February 2020 20: 14 New
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    Is hyper mediocre? Nda. No comments.
  • Undecim 10 February 2020 20: 33 New
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    It should be recognized that, outside the issue of booking ships, the author is guided very poorly.
    Why did the Japanese have such powerful ships?
    The beginning is promising, because the question is really interesting.
    The first thing the author took up was habitability conditions.
    It turns out, "The myth of poor habitability is written down entirely from the words of the Americans." In fact, according to Kaptsov, "Japanese ships were the most comfortable and cozy!"
    Apparently, the Americans can’t take the word, but Kaptsov can!
    In fact, the habitability of the ship, the issue is very capacious, since it directly affects the combat efficiency of the ship.
    This is a complex characteristic showing the degree of fitness of the ship to human life in swimming conditions.
    At the same time, habitability is characterized by a combination of a number of factors: social (conditions for the placement of crew members at combat posts and in living quarters, organization of service on the ship, work and rest hours of personnel, etc.), physical (microclimate and lighting of rooms, noise, vibration) , electromagnetic radiation), chemical (gas and gas environment of the premises, means and quality of its cleaning) and biological (the crew is provided with water and food, the presence of microflora - microbes, viruses, parasites), etc.
    Therefore, the conclusion about which ships were "the most comfortable", we must compare at least the main of the above factors. Horsepower in ventilation is great. But whether these horsepower provided a normal microclimate is an interesting question.
    Or the area of ​​premises per crew member. An appeal to Japanese sources gives a figure of 1,5 - 1,6 sq.m. per person on Furutaka and Aoba class cruisers. Apparently, this is not enough even for unpretentious samurai, since the crews gave these ships the nickname 水族館 - suizokukan. Translated roughly as a "demonstration aquarium for fish."
    But instead of dry numbers, the author issues an enchanting maxim in its stupidity: "Even if you sleep in the cockpit while standing, then no increase in combat performance will happen.".
    That is, according to the author’s opinion, even asleep while standing in a constant pitching and rolling, the sailor can successfully perform his functions, which are an important component of this very combat readiness - to observe, deliver projectiles, and control mechanisms.
    Further analysis proceeds in the same vein - "trust me, people, a word !!!"
    Kaptsov - better about armor!
    1. Usher 12 February 2020 07: 05 New
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      Quote: Undecim
      It should be recognized that, outside the issue of booking ships, the author is guided very poorly.
      Why did the Japanese have such powerful ships?
      The beginning is promising, because the question is really interesting.
      The first thing the author took up was habitability conditions.
      It turns out, "The myth of poor habitability is written down entirely from the words of the Americans." In fact, according to Kaptsov, "Japanese ships were the most comfortable and cozy!"
      Apparently, the Americans can’t take the word, but Kaptsov can!
      In fact, the habitability of the ship, the issue is very capacious, since it directly affects the combat efficiency of the ship.
      This is a complex characteristic showing the degree of fitness of the ship to human life in swimming conditions.
      At the same time, habitability is characterized by a combination of a number of factors: social (conditions for the placement of crew members at combat posts and in living quarters, organization of service on the ship, work and rest hours of personnel, etc.), physical (microclimate and lighting of rooms, noise, vibration) , electromagnetic radiation), chemical (gas and gas environment of the premises, means and quality of its cleaning) and biological (the crew is provided with water and food, the presence of microflora - microbes, viruses, parasites), etc.
      Therefore, the conclusion about which ships were "the most comfortable", we must compare at least the main of the above factors. Horsepower in ventilation is great. But whether these horsepower provided a normal microclimate is an interesting question.
      Or the area of ​​premises per crew member. An appeal to Japanese sources gives a figure of 1,5 - 1,6 sq.m. per person on Furutaka and Aoba class cruisers. Apparently, this is not enough even for unpretentious samurai, since the crews gave these ships the nickname 水族館 - suizokukan. Translated roughly as a "demonstration aquarium for fish."
      But instead of dry numbers, the author issues an enchanting maxim in its stupidity: "Even if you sleep in the cockpit while standing, then no increase in combat performance will happen.".
      That is, according to the author’s opinion, even asleep while standing in a constant pitching and rolling, the sailor can successfully perform his functions, which are an important component of this very combat readiness - to observe, deliver projectiles, and control mechanisms.
      Further analysis proceeds in the same vein - "trust me, people, a word !!!"
      Kaptsov - better about armor!

      You confuse performance characteristics and combat readiness.
  • Earthshaker 10 February 2020 20: 39 New
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    The 20 Essexes defeated them anyway. But the ships are beautiful and powerful, no doubt, and the design of the superstructure clearly impressed the designers of Ticonderoge.
  • Petrol cutter 10 February 2020 20: 47 New
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    Interesting, thanks. I read / saw a lot for the first time.
    Variable deck deaths relative to the KVL! It is something. This can actually save weight. I would not have thought of it ... As our master said, I am an old believer.
    Increase spations. Boldly, but quite logical. For with such a thickness of the lining there is no need to part with frames (within reasonable limits of course). And this certainly reduces the weight is not childish in the scale of such a ship.
    By habitability, you generally opened my eyes. I did not know anything about this. So thanks for the article.
  • ay.bas 10 February 2020 20: 53 New
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    In the face of restrictions, everyone is perverted as he can.
    The Japanese bought the rest of the specifications by facilitating the construction of ships and fighters.
  • Earthshaker 10 February 2020 21: 08 New
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    Hippers are ahead of their time in terms of automation. The 2 main fire control posts each had 4 "computer". Universal artillery was stabilized in three planes and had remote guidance from the posts, and 37mm anti-aircraft guns were located on gyro-stabilized platforms. They would have been born 20 years later - equipment would have eaten less than the displacement.
    1. SVD68 11 February 2020 08: 42 New
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      It’s strange. Automation, but the crew is one and a half times more than on the Mogami.
      1. Earthshaker 11 February 2020 10: 03 New
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        The paradox lies in this, the unreliability and imperfection of all this automation forced the Germans to increase the number of people serving it or performing its functions in case of failure.
      2. Macsen_wledig 11 February 2020 19: 20 New
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        As a rule, sources consider the crews along with prize teams, not bothering much with the analysis of details.
        Well, the question is not automation, but duplication of posts, such as the Civil Code and the Criminal Code.
    2. Alexey RA 11 February 2020 12: 53 New
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      Quote: Earthshaker
      and 37mm anti-aircraft guns were located on gyro-stabilized platforms

      But at the same time they were semi-automatic like our 21-K.
      It's funny that the army had a 37-mm machine gun. But the fleet received the 37 mm MZA only in 1943. smile
      1. Earthshaker 11 February 2020 14: 54 New
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        It's even funnier that 40mm Bofors (aka Flak 28) were installed on Hipper, and not Army Flak 43 hi
        1. Alexey RA 11 February 2020 17: 34 New
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          Quote: Earthshaker
          It's even funnier that 40mm Bofors (aka Flak 28) were installed on Hipper, and not Army Flak 43

          And not just the Bofors, but the brand-new implements for the production of the Waffenfabrik Kongsberg plant, which worked for the Germans, Norway. smile
        2. Macsen_wledig 11 February 2020 19: 23 New
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          According to the initial draft, air defense reinforcements should have stood 3,7 cm / 69 M42, but the 37 mm was not enough for everyone, so the solution was found in the “bofors”.
  • Mihail2019 10 February 2020 22: 17 New
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    Chet site blunted.
    I read and think - Roman Skomorokhov continues a series of articles about the cruiser ..
    I think, where are Oleg Kaptsov - armored ships, especially from the Second World War - his favorites ?!
    And there it is! Oleg issued his article!
    I read with interest, as always Olegov articles.
    But, in my opinion, Oleg is just a fan of the armored ships of the Second World War, and therefore this article turned out to be just wonderful - because here the author, as they say, is "in full"!
    Oleg - it was very interesting to read your article!
    Thank you!
  • Mihail2019 10 February 2020 22: 25 New
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    Oleg, I apologize, but did the Japanese already actually introduce armor into the power set of the hull?
    I just really don't know ..
    The question itself is interesting - when did it first appear and when did it begin to be applied (and how much) widely?
    1. Santa Fe 11 February 2020 02: 49 New
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      First used on Furutaka-class cruisers

      There was no side skin behind the armored plates of the belt included in the power structure of the hull. Hiraga estimated that the attachment points of 76 mm armor plates will largely absorb the longitudinal load: almost 100% of the load when compressing the hull (on the crests of two waves) and 70% when stretched (on the crest of a single wave). The armored deck with a thickness of 32-35 mm perceived 100% compression load and 80% tension.
  • Santa Fe 10 February 2020 22: 45 New
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    Yamato had a power plant of lower power than the heavy cruisers

    In this sense, all the battleships and heavy cruisers of that era can be considered as close relatives. The difference in cost was not as significant as it seems from the difference in displacement

    After all, the main share of the cost is not the dead metal of the hull and armor, but the GEM mechanisms, weapons and fire controls

    For example, the armament of the "York" type Krt (weight 1000 tons, only 1/9 of the standard displacement) accounted for 1/3 of the ship's value. Moreover, it was very primitive. With the creation of more advanced ships, the share of weapons in the cost became even more significant. Therefore the sarcastic remark that Eugen was worth half as Bismarck does not look exaggerated
  • Grafova Irina 11 February 2020 00: 18 New
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    The size of Japan and the most "standard" Japanese (as a person) did not play a role? And the height of the interdeck space between them and the "Europeans"?
    1. Santa Fe 11 February 2020 02: 41 New
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      No

      All this is insignificant against the background of the size of the ship
      1. Constanty 11 February 2020 21: 44 New
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        I would not agree. On the second pair of “Mogami” - “Suzuya” and “Kumano” the height of the interdeck space was reduced. The Japanese could afford it precisely because of the small growth of the Japanese sailors. The center of gravity of the ships was thus reduced by 35 cm and thereby significantly improved the stability of these ships.
  • iouris 11 February 2020 00: 44 New
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    Here again abstract problems are "solved". Well, did such powerful ships help Japan? American accountants knocked out grandmas and decided that only the States would benefit from the World War, and if there would be no war, then the States would end. Roosevelt did not hide his joy from the fact that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, in which there were obsolete battleships: the "Monroe Doctrine" is in the woods, in three years the admirals and generals will have it all! Once again: three years from the moment Japan created the occasion.
  • Angelo Provolone 11 February 2020 02: 15 New
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    I read it to the end. Where the author mentioned in passing about the 1200 mm spacing and which project author is doing great, I realized that you can not read further, but then the article ended ...
    Dear author, you have it like this: in passing? Do you generally understand that spacing is one of the key parameters in the construction of a ship? He has a lot that affects and he pulls a lot.
    The disadvantage is due to the advantage of weight reduction: the thickness of the skin becomes larger, the dimensions of the cross-sectional profile of the set beams are also larger.
    Just take a blurt out in passing: "Oh, how good 1200mm, what a fine fellow!" .. and the point. You humor so what? I do not understand. )
    Therefore, there are problems with vibration. the rigidity of the body is provided precisely by the beams of the set. With an increase in spation, the natural frequency decreases and becomes close to the frequency of the ship's equipment. A question of sustainability. Euler forces decrease in proportion to the square of the span. So the casing will lose stability earlier. And survivability? How are you going to patch the case after a hole? Oh, there is an "egg". stomped a torpedo and all. The shelter fell off. Look at modern ships. Yes, they are on board the longitudinal spatia shallow - shallow. Why do you think so? Probably designed?
    1. Santa Fe 11 February 2020 02: 45 New
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      the thickness of the skin becomes larger

      Of course more! In many times

      After all, instead of sheathing, armored belts were used.
      the cross-sectional dimensions of the set beams are also larger.

      Nothing of the kind, profile standard for ships 5-8 mi


      You just didn’t read the article, but hurried to make comments
      1. Angelo Provolone 11 February 2020 03: 32 New
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        Nothing of the kind, profile standard for ships 5-8 mi

        Of course! nothing like this!
        it’s just that the pressure now falls not on two beams (600mm), but on one delivered through 1200mm. Of course not! Well this is a mustache. The main standard! It is a pity the beam does not know anything about the standard, it would have stood it!
        1. Santa Fe 11 February 2020 04: 18 New
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          Quote: Angelo Provolone
          It is a pity the beam does not know anything about the standard, it would have stood it!

          Hiraga estimated that the attachment points of 76 mm armor plates will largely absorb the longitudinal load: almost 100% of the load when compressing the hull (on the crests of two waves) and 70% when stretched (on the crest of a single wave). The armored deck with a thickness of 32-35 mm perceived 100% compression load and 80% tension. (c)
          Quote: Angelo Provolone
          just the pressure now falls on not two beams (600mm)

          Pressure now falls on beams and caracas of armored elements
          1. Angelo Provolone 11 February 2020 10: 13 New
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            (on the crests of two waves)
            This is called deflection.
            on the crest of a single wave
            This is an inflection.
            And with the deflection and with the bend, either the deck or the bottom, and not the hull, can stretch.
            Pressure now falls on beams and caracas of armored elements

            On the "frame", as you put it, it is already "accounted for". It is important where it "leaves".
            Who are you by education? )))
            1. Santa Fe 11 February 2020 10: 46 New
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              stretch out either the deck or the bottom, not the hull.

              Shirstrek is one of the main longitudinal connections of the hull, experiencing the greatest load during general and oblique bending of the vessel on a wave
              Who are you by education? )))

              Another misunderstanding in the comments
              Instead of discussing the topic - an attempt to get personal

              Learn to write in Russian first
              1. Angelo Provolone 11 February 2020 13: 35 New
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                Learn to write in Russian first

                Yes, I can’t. I am a crocodile, crocodile and I will crocodile ...

          2. Dmitry V. 11 February 2020 11: 55 New
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            Quote: Santa Fe
            Pressure now falls on beams and caracas of armored elements


            Oleg - there is no particular genius in how the hulls of Japanese cruisers are designed.
            The designer left the hull with equal strength, strengthening the bow and loosening the stern, resulting in a negative result - insufficient overall stiffness of the hull.
            It took a rework of the case, that is, the calculations were not correct - this is called a fiasco ...
            That is why the British spoke of the design of the Japanese as amateurism!

            The armored belt has a relatively small height, relative to the length, and it, like any planar power element, has the properties of loss of stability.
            So that the flat power elements do not lose stability - they are reinforced with beams.
            And it all depends on how the flat power elements will be fixed and how they will be included in the power frame.

            Angelo Provolone correctly wrote that the power element itself cannot "perceive" the load - it can redistribute on the entire power frame, through fasteners.
            Hiraga estimated that the attachment points of 76 mm armor plates will largely absorb the longitudinal load: almost 100% of the load when compressing the hull (on the crests of two waves) and 70% when stretched (on the crest of a single wave). The armored deck with a thickness of 32-35 mm perceived 100% compression load and 80% tension. (c)

            Here is nonsense, from the point of view of the force calculation of spatial frames.
            What Angelo is trying to tell you about.
            1. Usher 12 February 2020 07: 22 New
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              Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
              Quote: Santa Fe
              Pressure now falls on beams and caracas of armored elements


              Oleg - there is no particular genius in how the hulls of Japanese cruisers are designed.
              The designer left the hull with equal strength, strengthening the bow and loosening the stern, resulting in a negative result - insufficient overall stiffness of the hull.
              It took a rework of the case, that is, the calculations were not correct - this is called a fiasco ...
              That is why the British spoke of the design of the Japanese as amateurism!

              The armored belt has a relatively small height, relative to the length, and it, like any planar power element, has the properties of loss of stability.
              So that the flat power elements do not lose stability - they are reinforced with beams.
              And it all depends on how the flat power elements will be fixed and how they will be included in the power frame.

              Angelo Provolone correctly wrote that the power element itself cannot "perceive" the load - it can redistribute on the entire power frame, through fasteners.
              Hiraga estimated that the attachment points of 76 mm armor plates will largely absorb the longitudinal load: almost 100% of the load when compressing the hull (on the crests of two waves) and 70% when stretched (on the crest of a single wave). The armored deck with a thickness of 32-35 mm perceived 100% compression load and 80% tension. (c)

              Here is nonsense, from the point of view of the force calculation of spatial frames.
              What Angelo is trying to tell you about.

              But why then in the military campaigns they did not have significant problems with this? And in battle, especially if it is FIASCO? I don’t understand, everyone says "amateurs, fiasco." Only in reality did the Japanese easily drown the British. It took the United States military machine only 4 years to win, and in the end the USSR “decided” more (When it destroyed in a month, the Kwantung group, which they planned to transfer to the metropolis, and after the destruction, there was nothing to fight at once. Not atomic bombs, in that the moment the city perished constantly, the city more, the city less). Like two fingers on the asphalt. In my opinion, just the British were distinguished by anachronisms in the navy.
  • sa117 11 February 2020 05: 49 New
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    Author, attention !!! 696 cubic meters is not 100 litas
    1. Usher 12 February 2020 07: 16 New
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      Quote: sa117
      Author, attention !!! 696 cubic meters is not 100 litas

      Attention you read poorly. Per person.
  • Vladimir SHajkin 11 February 2020 09: 43 New
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    The article is good, the story about foreigners is not biased, not capricious, always interesting and instructive.
    1. Angelo Provolone 11 February 2020 10: 19 New
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      Yes. Replete with new words in the field of shipbuilding ...
      Spacing - the distance between the frames ....

      Powerful. And the car is such a bibizics.
  • Dmitry V. 11 February 2020 10: 23 New
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    But what about the habitability of the ships of the USSR? - overall, not bad.
    TAKKR Kiev - inhabited compartments, galley, laundry department (Tianjin 2016)


  • Constanty 11 February 2020 10: 47 New
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    Too light body caused various problems on the Japanese cruisers. For example, "Mogami" after the first reconstruction and significant weight loss of add-ons:

    “After the restructuring described above, the Mogami began testing in March 1935. Catapults, the main fire control device, rear 127 mm anti-aircraft guns and light anti-aircraft guns have not yet been installed on the ship. The ship behaved on the wave correctly, but seriously damaged the welded hull. During the test at a speed of 35,96 knots, frames and stringers near the propellers were deformed. This, in turn, caused a weakening of the skin and, as a result, cracks in the fuel tanks. The nose was also deformed, and as a result of the waves, the entire body was deformed. Because the bow and stern end of the anti-aircraft artillery deck were structurally combined with barbetami artillery towers 3 and 4, the distortion of the hull caused a deformation in the rotation mechanism of the bearing of the main artillery tower. This limited the possibility of their circulation. ... "

    : Jarosław Malinowski, "Japońskie krążowniki typu Mogami" p. 5

    Welding is welding, but many of these injuries were in my opinion due to the body being too light.
    1. Dmitry V. 11 February 2020 12: 13 New
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      Quote: Constanty
      Welding is welding, but many of these injuries were in my opinion due to the body being too light.


      This is not just a mistake - it is (I agree with the British) amateurism!
      Very few people at that time could really imagine the load distribution across thousands of elements of the power set and the attempt to include armor elements in the power set as a whole failed miserably, due to the incorrect determination of the stability of power elements without taking into account the influence of the fastening method.
      By the way, the Germans did much better with welded fastenings of ship hulls.
      According to the technology developed by the Krupp concern, the armored plates of the sides, decks, towers and deckhouses were welded with “nickel-chromium-molybdenum electrodes”. After cracks and pores were found in the seams of the ship’s hull, in the joints made with thin-coated electrodes, German shipyards began to use thick-coated electrodes, achieving satisfactory quality of the joints.
      1. Usher 12 February 2020 07: 15 New
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        Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
        Quote: Constanty
        Welding is welding, but many of these injuries were in my opinion due to the body being too light.


        This is not just a mistake - it is (I agree with the British) amateurism!
        Very few people at that time could really imagine the load distribution across thousands of elements of the power set and the attempt to include armor elements in the power set as a whole failed miserably, due to the incorrect determination of the stability of power elements without taking into account the influence of the fastening method.
        By the way, the Germans did much better with welded fastenings of ship hulls.
        According to the technology developed by the Krupp concern, the armored plates of the sides, decks, towers and deckhouses were welded with “nickel-chromium-molybdenum electrodes”. After cracks and pores were found in the seams of the ship’s hull, in the joints made with thin-coated electrodes, German shipyards began to use thick-coated electrodes, achieving satisfactory quality of the joints.

        Only in battle and in war, this mythical quality of the seams did not fail. A weak performance characteristics of the British KR even like.
  • Victor Leningradets 11 February 2020 15: 33 New
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    Thank you so much Oleg!
    In principle - everything is correct, comments, by and large, are just nitpicking.
    Yuzuru Hiraga created "Yubari" created a new school of military shipbuilding. And only after making sure of the consistency of his ideas, he began their replication in the class of heavy cruisers. And unique "predators" turned out.
    It is important to note that the Japanese were the only ones who came up with this class of ships a real tactical purpose. I would define it as "super-dealers" - huge destroyers - providing the use of lethal torpedo and artillery weapons, air defense units. Of course, the ideas of the late 20s and their technical implementation did not correspond to the level of the 40s (especially taking into account the qualitative and quantitative predominance of the enemy), but I would characterize this era of development of the Japanese fleet as a breakthrough into the future. It is not without reason that in the modern fleet of the cruiser URO are supplanted by URO destroyers that are not inferior in size to them.
  • swzero 11 February 2020 16: 38 New
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    The author thinks of the standards of the Russo-Japanese war. The article does not say a word about fire control systems. And it should be noted that Hipper, rejected by the author, had a battleship control system. And with double redundancy. He also had 6 anti-aircraft guns 105mm stabilized in 3 planes with his own FCS, also duplicated. There was nothing like that in the Japanese. It is with such bells and whistles that the German's displacement and its crew size are explained. In WWII, it became much more important to shoot faster and fire more accurately. What is the use of 10 * 203 guns, if after the first hit in the superstructure the Japanese cruiser turns into a target, because it doesn’t have backup fire control systems, even if you do not take this into account, the MSA is still significantly inferior to the German one and most likely 10 barrels will not help in the confrontation with the hipper - the German will shoot faster, will get faster and then hi 610mm to oxygen torpedoes, 25mm armor of towers and the only suo in the only building. Well, the effectiveness of such a solution is quite indicative - in the Danish Strait Eugen showed the percentage of hits at a great distance is quite battleship. Our way, on the same cruisers such as Sverdlov, chose the German version and came close to Hipper in terms of crew size and displacement, and this is on a light cruiser.
    1. Santa Fe 11 February 2020 18: 55 New
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      Swzero is funny))) painted all aspects and even concluded for effectiveness))))

      Eugen showed not only the battleship hit rate, but also battleship cost

      104 million Reichsmarks, for comparison, the construction of Bismarck cost 180. Of course, with the disproportionate power, combat stability and significance of these ships in the theater

      Why such a cruiser?

      Ps. All these German SLAs and stabilization systems in three planes will fail at the first volley. If at all, they will function at the beginning of the battle. It’s not for nothing that Eugen’s crew exceeded the state’s 1,5 times due to the constant presence of specialists and workers who supplied the fleet with such systems
      1. swzero 11 February 2020 19: 14 New
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        not quite right. Narrow places are free slipways, a very laborious production of gk trunks and thick armor. The Germans, with all the desire, most likely could not have built instead of 4 hippers, 2 more Bismarck or 6-8 Berwicks by the start of the war. So the concept from this point of view may have been chosen correctly. As for the workers and engineers — they were at the Bismarck — new ships in the first campaign — nothing surprising. Their systems were basically the same. The Prince of Wales, by the way, had more serious problems with the materiel, for the same reason. As for the Japanese, they could not afford such excesses not because of the cost - in the conditions of the limit on the number of ships, the cost goes by the wayside, but because of the limit on displacement.
      2. Macsen_wledig 11 February 2020 19: 59 New
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        Quote: Santa Fe
        Ps. All these German SLAs and stabilization systems in three planes will fail at the first volley. If at all, they will function at the beginning of the battle.

        Probably for this reason I JO “Eugene” Paul Jasper in the battle in the Danish Strait covered the second volley “Hood”. :)
        Moreover, he covered efficiently, with a hit that caused a fire.
        He aimed "at the sea eye" and shot ... :)

        Quote: Santa Fe
        It’s not for nothing that Eugen’s crew was 1,5 times higher than the statewide one due to the constant presence of specialists and workers who supplied the fleet with such systems

        I would like to look at the documents confirming your words.
        1. Rurikovich 11 February 2020 22: 20 New
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          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          I would like to look at the documents confirming your words.

          The German heavy cruisers, oversaturated with sophisticated equipment and mechanisms, had a very significant crew. Its number varied depending on the specific composition of light anti-aircraft weapons and the task performed. The staff was 1380 people, including 42 officers. However, during the Reynubung operation, there were 64 officers, 76 foremen, 408 junior non-commissioned officers and 852 privates on Prinz Eugen, not including radio intelligence and prize teams. According to some reports, the “Admiral Hipper” team reached 1600 people in its Atlantic campaign, while the “Blücher” went out on its only fateful campaign with almost 1380 sailors.
    2. Usher 12 February 2020 07: 13 New
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      Quote: swzero
      The author thinks of the standards of the Russo-Japanese war. The article does not say a word about fire control systems. And it should be noted that Hipper, rejected by the author, had a battleship control system. And with double redundancy. He also had 6 anti-aircraft guns 105mm stabilized in 3 planes with his own FCS, also duplicated. There was nothing like that in the Japanese. It is with such bells and whistles that the German's displacement and its crew size are explained. In WWII, it became much more important to shoot faster and fire more accurately. What is the use of 10 * 203 guns, if after the first hit in the superstructure the Japanese cruiser turns into a target, because it doesn’t have backup fire control systems, even if you do not take this into account, the MSA is still significantly inferior to the German one and most likely 10 barrels will not help in the confrontation with the hipper - the German will shoot faster, will get faster and then hi 610mm to oxygen torpedoes, 25mm armor of towers and the only suo in the only building. Well, the effectiveness of such a solution is quite indicative - in the Danish Strait Eugen showed the percentage of hits at a great distance is quite battleship. Our way, on the same cruisers such as Sverdlov, chose the German version and came close to Hipper in terms of crew size and displacement, and this is on a light cruiser.

      But only reality showed the opposite.
  • Viktor Sergeev 11 February 2020 18: 18 New
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    Quantity beats quality, this is the law of war.
    1. Usher 12 February 2020 07: 11 New
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      Quote: Victor Sergeev
      Quantity beats quality, this is the law of war.

      Only the commentators are not in the case of the USSR. Usually, as a matter of quantity-quality, the USSR will be touched right away, the dodgers will interfere with their own. They threw their hats.
  • Macsen_wledig 11 February 2020 19: 08 New
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    The real crew of the Admiral Hipper-type TKR was one and a half times higher than the nominal value (due to hundreds of specialists and workers making sure that this ship did not fall apart on the go).

    Can I refer to German documents?

    Where powerful plates were fastened into a single monolith, the size of the spacing was 1200 mm (spacing is the distance between adjacent frames).

    With a longitudinal dialing scheme, the spation value is of critical importance.
    By the way, I’ll tell you a bunch of little secrets ... :)
    The spice of the "Hipper" you mentioned varies from 700 mm in the bow, to 2000 mm in the stern, and in the middle part 1375 to 1700 mm ...
    Algeri has a spice from 1000 mm in the extremities to 1500-2000 mm in the middle part.
    American CT scans have 2 feet in the extremities, 4 feet in the middle
    So your enthusiasm for Hiragha’s insight is somewhat contrived ...
  • D-Master 11 February 2020 19: 44 New
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    Usually I read Kaptsov’s articles with skepticism, but this one was a success. I really like engineering delights that allow you to pull a rabbit out of an empty cylinder. It was very interesting to read on the principles used in the construction of these cruisers. Thank you for the article !
  • Macsen_wledig 11 February 2020 20: 01 New
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    Quote: swzero
    The Germans, with all the desire, most likely could not have built instead of 4 hippers, 2 more Bismarck or 6-8 Berwicks by the start of the war.

    Everything is simpler: “Hippers” are purely negotiable ships.
    The Germans built the "Washington" CRT as they imagined it.
    1. Constanty 11 February 2020 21: 27 New
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      Germany was in no way bound by the provisions of the Washington or London Treaty, but only by the German-British maritime system of June 18, 1935 in London. The agreement limited the development of the German fleet to 35% of the size of the British fleet as a whole and for certain classes of ships. However, he did not specify the quality parameters of the ships themselves.
  • Macsen_wledig 11 February 2020 22: 23 New
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    Quote: Constanty
    Germany was in no way bound by the provisions of the Washington or London Treaty, but only by the German-British maritime system of June 18, 1935 in London. The agreement limited the development of the German fleet to 35% of the size of the British fleet as a whole and for certain classes of ships. However, he did not specify the quality parameters of the ships themselves..

    See section d)
    (D)The German Government favor, the matter of limitation of naval armaments, that system which divides naval vessels into categories, fixing the maximum tonnage and / or armament for vessels in each category, and allocates the tonnage to be allowed to each Power by categories of vessels ...
    ......
    The German government is in favor of restricting naval armaments to a system that divides naval vessels into categories, sets maximum tonnage and / or armament for ships of each category, and distributes the tonnage that should be allowed by each Stainless to the categories of ships ...

    And what was the system operating in the world in the field of navies as of June 18, 1935?
    For some reason, I think that the "Washington-London".
    1. The comment was deleted.
  • Usher 12 February 2020 07: 08 New
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    I have a feeling that 80% of commentators are “near-minded” to them about Thomas, and they about Yaryama. Warm with soft confused. TTX with combat readiness. Torpedoes with airplanes. Read with ears, fingers, legs but not with the eyes.
  • Usher 12 February 2020 12: 51 New
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    Great article, respect to the author. By the way, in the topic, I read the article a long time ago, I don’t remember where. Tried to find. There about another myth that supposedly Japanese armor is worse, and the best is British. Well, the myth is debunked in the article, since the Americans found armor plates from battleships of the Yamato type, such as the fourth was to be built. And they came under fire and the results were frankly not what Americans expected.

    Oleg, could you find this info?
  • Macsen_wledig 12 February 2020 18: 12 New
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    Quote: Santa Fe
    Quote: Avior
    And the add-on from side to side has long been common.

    This is not an add-on.

    Comrade, the more I read you, the more I become convinced that you need to read Evers' Military Shipbuilding, then much will fall into place ...
    http://mirknig.su/knigi/military_history/17223-voennoe-korablestroenie.html
  • Macsen_wledig 12 February 2020 18: 24 New
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    Quote: Usher

    Oleg, could you find this info?

    The network is free
    REPORTS OF THE US NAVAL TECHNICAL MISSION TO JAPAN. Chapter 0-16 Japanese Heavy Armor.
    и
    Ballistic Tests and Metallurgical Examination of Japanese Heavy Armor Plate

    You yourself can search and familiarize yourself.
  • NF68 12 February 2020 18: 35 New
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    Japan could not compete on equal terms with the United States in the number of ships built of all classes. Therefore, the Japanese decided to shove the most powerful weapons into the relatively small displacement of their TCs. And it also affected light cruisers.
  • Macsen_wledig 12 February 2020 18: 43 New
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    Quote: Rurikovich
    The staff was 1380 people, including 42 officers. However, during the Reynubung operation, there were 64 officers, 76 foremen, 408 junior non-commissioned officers and 852 privates on the Prinz Eugen, not counting radio intelligence and prize teams.

    Kamrad, I have immense respect for the late VK, but in this case he is somewhat mistaken.
    The crew of the "Eugen" - 1350 people.
    During Operation Reynyubung, there were 50 extra people aboard:
    - seconded officers - 2
    - intelligence service - 11
    - military journalists - 4
    - prize party commanders - 4
    - orchestral platoon - 29
    In total, there were 1400 people at the Prince.

    But that was not the question.
    The author of the article claims the following
    Quote: Santa Fe
    It’s not for nothing that Eugen’s crew was 1,5 times higher than the statewide one due to the constant presence of specialists and workers who supplied the fleet with such systems

    I would like to see documentary evidence of the above facts.
    1. Santa Fe 13 February 2020 00: 18 New
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      The crew is 1350 people. for the 1941 cruiser sounds funny

      The Germans were completely crazy
  • unknown 12 February 2020 22: 36 New
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    The Japanese managed to create their own type of heavy cruiser, which in many ways surpassed the "Washington" cruisers of other countries. But, no genius. Everything is elementary. Japanese heavy cruisers had a greater displacement. Moreover, the Japanese went completely "amateurish" to their type of cruiser.
    At first, they designed the ship in a standard Washington displacement with stronger weapons, more armor, and higher speed. They built it with a huge overload.
    Then, they began to struggle with the weakness of the body and disgusting stability. As a result, we received a ship with a displacement exceeding the standard Washington one by "some twenty percent."
    Nothing, that is 2000 tons?
    With this modernization, which increases the displacement, the internal volumes for accommodating mechanisms, weapons, and crews did not increase. And didn’t you try to design ships at a larger displacement right away? What for ? And so did not try for five series of heavy cruisers.
    Only the sixth series was perfect.
    Standard Washington armament, solid armor, high speed, stability and seaworthiness. The best crew living conditions. No modernization work on the hull. And the standard displacement is 11231 tons.
    This "extra" thousand tons allowed to combine all the requirements in one ship.
    In Europe, the most protected cruisers, such as the Zara, had a similar displacement.
    But was it possible to put all the requirements into "standard" ten thousand tons?
    Close to this, the Americans approached New Orleans.
    The mass of armor, of course, was inferior to the Japanese, but compared with the previous series, they were much better protected.
    Yes, and Brooklyn, an analogue of the Mogami, turned out pretty well. Some weakness of the hull, but a huge reserve of displacement: by the end of the war, overload reached 1400 tons, while maintaining acceptable stability.
    And only the French created the ideal heavy cruiser in a standard "Washington" displacement.
    It would seem that by changing one parameter-speed, they were able to harmonize all other parameters.
    The speed of Algeria is 31 knots. The Tone speed for the project is 35 knots.
    In general, why is a heavy cruiser so fast? With excitement, the speed will still be less, and destroyers will not be able to keep that speed. And in the night battle, for which the Japanese heavy cruisers were built, is such a high speed necessary?
    Power plant "Algeria" -84000 hp "Tone" - 152000 hp, the mass of the power plant - 2471,5 tons.
    In addition, the French used high-pressure boilers, as a result, the mass of the power plant with the curb condition - 1347,45 tons. Here it is, the desired thousand tons of displacement.
    The French also worked with the contours of the hull, so Algeria reached a speed of 33 knots during testing.
    1. Santa Fe 13 February 2020 00: 15 New
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      In Europe, the most protected cruisers, such as the Zara, had a similar displacement.
      But was it possible to put all the requirements into "standard" ten thousand tons?
      Close to this, the Americans approached New Orleans.

      Zara was built under a limited-size theater
      Offensive power - also inferior to the Japanese

      New Orleans compared with the Japanese inferior in all respects

      Why knead the air with such examples
      In general, why does a heavy cruiser need such speed

      Not everything is measured by speed

      Twice the power of the GEM = fast speed gain after the maneuver, the ability to perform vigorous maneuvers of dodging torpedoes / aircraft / in art battle and quickly recovering speed

      The Japanese were the best at that.
  • Macsen_wledig 12 February 2020 23: 34 New
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    Quote: ignoto
    In addition, the French used high-pressure boilers, as a result, the mass of the power plant with the curb condition - 1347,45 tons. Here it is, the desired thousand tons of displacement.

    If you dig further, then the “Tone” and the body is 900 tons heavier than 4700 versus 3800 for the “Algeri”.
    1. Santa Fe 13 February 2020 00: 09 New
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      It is necessary to look at the ratio of the mass of the hull to the standard displacement

      Tone is bigger
  • Macsen_wledig 13 February 2020 18: 30 New
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    Quote: Santa Fe
    The crew is 1350 people. for the 1941 cruiser sounds funny
    The Germans were completely crazy

    Can you substantiate your claims?

    And yes ... I still do not see your answer to my question. :)
    If anything, let me remind you ...
    You claim
    Quote: Santa Fe
    It’s not for nothing that Eugen’s crew was 1,5 times higher than the statewide one due to the constant presence of specialists and workers who supplied the fleet with such systems

    I would like to see documents confirming this fact.
  • Macsen_wledig 13 February 2020 18: 33 New
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    Quote: Santa Fe
    It is necessary to look at the ratio of the mass of the hull to the standard displacement

    Tone is bigger

    This is understandable ...
    If you carefully read the messages, you would notice that there is a discussion of the possibility of “driving” the Tone into a contractual 10000 tons, taking Algeri as a comparison criterion.
  • BMP-2 2 March 2020 12: 26 New
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    And what else should the ships of the island state be ???)