The greatest depth of immersion submarines of the Russian Navy, US Navy and Japan

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The fact of the existence of the bathyscaphe, which managed to conquer the deepest abyss, testifies to the technical feasibility of creating inhabited vehicles for diving to any depths.





Why is it that not one of the modern submarines is even able to plunge - even at 1000 meters?

Half a century ago, assembled from improvised means standard steel and plexiglass bathyscaphe reached the bottom of the Mariana Trench. And he could continue his dive if in nature there were great depths. The safe calculated depth for Trieste was 13 kilometers!

Over 3/4 of the World Ocean area falls on the abyssal zone: an ocean bed with depths of over 3000 m. A genuine operational space for underwater fleet! Why is nobody using these features?

The conquest of great depths has nothing to do with the strength of the Shark, Boreev and Virginia hulls. The problem is different. And the example with the bathyscaphe “Trieste” has absolutely nothing to do with it.

They look like a plane and an airship


A bathyscaphe is a “float”. A tank with gasoline, with a crew gondola fixed under it. When taken aboard the ballast, the structure acquires negative buoyancy and plunges into depth. When dropping ballast - returns to the surface.

The greatest depth of immersion submarines of the Russian Navy, US Navy and Japan


Unlike bathyscaphes, submarines are required to repeatedly change the depth of underwater during one dive. In other words, the submarine has the ability to repeatedly change the buoyancy margin. This is achieved by filling outboard ballast tanks, which are flushed with air when floating.

Typically, boats use three air systems: high pressure air (VVD), medium (VVD) and low pressure (VND). For example, on modern American nuclear powered ships, stocks of compressed air are stored in cylinders under 4500 psi pressure. inch. Or, humanly, about 315 kg / cm2. However, not one of the consumer systems of compressed air does not use VVD directly. Sudden pressure drops cause intense freezing and clogging of the valve, while creating the risk of compression outbreaks of oil vapor in the system. The widespread use of VVD under pressure above 300 atm. would create unacceptable dangers on board the submarine.

VVD through a system of pressure reducing valves enters consumers in the form of VVD under pressure 3000 fnl. per sq. inch (approx. 200 kg / cm2). It is with this air that the tanks of the main ballast are blown. To ensure the operation of the remaining mechanisms of the boat, launch weaponsAs well as blowing out trim and leveling tanks, “working” air is used under even lower pressure at about 100-150 kg / cm2.

And here the laws of dramaturgy come into effect!

As you dive into the depths of the sea for every 10 meter, pressure rises in the 1 atmosphere


At a depth of 1500 m, the pressure is 150 atm. At a depth of 2000 m, the pressure is 200 atm. This just corresponds to the maximum value of the VVD and VND in submarine systems.

The situation is exacerbated by limited volumes of compressed air on board. Especially after a long stay of the boat under water. At a depth of 50 meters, the available reserves may be enough to displace water from ballast tanks, but at a depth of 500 meters this is only enough to purge 1 / 5 of their volume. Great depths are always a risk, and it is required to act with extreme caution.

Nowadays, there is a practical possibility of creating a submarine with a hull designed for an immersion depth of 5000 meters. But blowing tanks at such a depth would require air under pressure above 500 atmospheres. To design pipelines, valves and fittings designed for such pressure, while maintaining their reasonable weight and eliminating all the associated dangers, is today a technically insoluble task.



Modern submarines are built on the principle of a reasonable balance of characteristics. Why make a high-strength body that can withstand the pressure of a kilometer column of water if the ascent systems are designed for much shallower depths. Submerged for a kilometer, the submarine will be doomed in any case.

However, in this stories there are heroes and outcasts.

American submariners considered traditional outsiders in the field of deep diving


The hulls of American boats for half a century are made of one alloy HY-80 with very mediocre characteristics. High-yield-80 = high strength alloy with yield strength 80 000 psi inch, which corresponds to the value of 550 MPa.



Many experts doubt the adequacy of such a decision. Due to the weak hull, boats are unable to fully utilize the capabilities of the ascent systems. Which allow the purging of tanks at much greater depths. According to estimates, the working depth (the depth at which the boat can stay for a long time, performing any maneuvers) for American submarines does not exceed 400 meters. The maximum depth is 550 meters.

The use of HY-80 makes it possible to reduce the cost and speed up the assembly of hull structures; the good welding qualities of this steel have always been mentioned among the advantages.

For the skeptical skeptics who immediately declare that the fleet of the “probable adversary” is massively replenished with unworkable junk, the following should be noted. Those differences in the pace of shipbuilding between Russia and the USA are caused not so much by the use of better grades of steel for our submarines, but by other circumstances. Anyway.

Overseas have always believed that superheroes are not needed. Underwater weapons should be as reliable, quiet and plentiful as possible. And there is some truth to this.

Komsomolets


The elusive “Mike” (K-278 by NATO classification) set an absolute record for diving depth among submarines - 1027 meters.

The maximum immersion depth of Komsomolets was estimated to be 1250 m.

Among the main design differences unusual for other domestic submarines are the 10 Kingstonless tanks located inside a sturdy hull. Ability to fire torpedoes from great depths (up to 800 meters). Pop-up rescue capsule. And the main highlight is the emergency system of purging tanks with the help of gas generators.

To realize all the inherent advantages allowed the case made of titanium alloy.

Titan alone was not a panacea for conquering the depths of the sea. The main thing in creating the deep-sea “Komsomolets” was the build quality and shape of a sturdy hull with a minimum of holes and weak points.

The 48-T titanium alloy with a yield strength of 720 MPa only slightly exceeded the structural strength of HY-100 (690 MPa), from which SiWulf submarines were made.

The other described “advantages” of the titanium case in the form of low magnetic properties and its lower susceptibility to corrosion were not worth the costs. Magnetometry has never been a priority way to detect boats; Underwater, everything is decided by the acoustics. And the problem of marine corrosion has been solved for more than two hundred years by simpler methods.



Titanium from the point of view of domestic submarine shipbuilding had TWO real advantages:

a) lower density, which meant a lighter body. Emerging reserves were spent on other load items, for example, power plants of greater power. It is no coincidence that submarines with a titanium hull (705 (K) Lira, 661 Anchar, Condor and Barracuda) were built as speed conquerors .;

b) Among all high-strength steels and alloys 48-T titanium alloy turned out to be the most technologically advanced in the processing and assembly of hull structures.

“The most technologically advanced” does not mean simple. But the welding qualities of titanium at least made it possible to assemble structures.

Overseas had a more optimistic outlook on the use of steels. For the manufacture of hulls of new submarines of the 21st century, high-strength steel of the brand HY-100 was proposed. In 1989, the United States laid the foundation for SeaWulf. Two years later, optimism diminished. The SiWulf case had to be dismantled into needles and the work started again.

Currently, many problems have been resolved, and steel alloys equivalent in HY-100 properties are more widely used in shipbuilding. According to some reports, such steel (WL = Werkstoff Leistungsblatt 1.3964) is used in the manufacture of a durable body of German non-nuclear submarines "Type 214".

There are even more durable alloys for the manufacture of cases, for example, the steel alloy HY-130 (900 MPa). But due to poor welding properties, shipbuilders considered the use of HY-130 impossible.

Not yet received news from Japan.

耐久 means yield strength


As the old saying goes, “No matter what you can do well, there is always an Asian who does it better.”

In open sources there is very little information about the characteristics of Japanese warships. However, experts are not stopped by the language barrier or the paranoid secrecy inherent in the second most powerful Navy in the world.

From the available information it follows that samurai along with hieroglyphs widely use English designations. In the description of the submarines there is an abbreviation NS (Naval Steel - naval steel), combined with the digital indexes 80 or 110.

In the metric number system "80" when designating a steel grade, it most likely means the yield strength of 800 MPa. The stronger NS110 steel has a yield strength of 1100 MPa.

From the American point of view, the standard steel for Japanese submarines is HY-114. Better and more durable - HY-156.

Silent scene


“Kawasaki” and “Mitsubishi Heavy Industries” without any high-profile promises and “Poseidons” learned to make hulls from materials that were previously considered indigestible and impossible when building submarines.

The data given correspond to obsolete submarines with an air-independent installation of the Oyashio type. The fleet consists of 11 units, of which the two oldest, which entered service in 1998-1999, are transferred to the category of training.

Oyashio has a mixed two-hull design. The most logical assumption is that the central section (solid hull) is made of the most durable NS110 steel, in the fore and aft parts of the boat a two-hull structure is used: a light streamlined shell made of NS80 (pressure inside = pressure outside), covering the tanks of the main ballast, carried outside the solid hull .



Modern Japanese submarines of the Soryu type are considered to be improved Oyashio with preservation of the basic design solutions that they inherited from their predecessors.

With a robust NS110 steel case, the Soryu working depth is estimated to be at least 600 meters. The limit is 900.

Given the circumstances, the Japanese Navy self-defense today has the deepest fleet of combat submarines.

The Japanese “squeeze” everything possible out of the affordable. Another question is how much this will help in a maritime conflict. To confront the deep sea requires a nuclear power plant. Pitiful Japanese "half measures" with an increase in working depth or the creation of a "battery-powered boat" (the Oryu submarine that surprised the world) look like a good mine with a bad game.

On the other hand, the traditional attention to detail has always allowed the Japanese to have an advantage over the enemy. The emergence of a nuclear power plant for the Japanese Navy is a matter of time. But who else in the world still has the technology for manufacturing heavy-duty steel cases with yield strength of 1100 MPa?
330 comments
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  1. +34
    18 October 2019 15: 20
    PL Komsomolets - was a UNIQUE Boat! It is unfortunate that they lost ... Blessed memory of the Sailors who died on it! soldier
    1. +3
      18 October 2019 15: 44
      Losharik is a special boat for special missions with special equipment and a special crew. Losharik steers.
      1. -17
        18 October 2019 18: 55
        Quote: Bearded
        Losharik is a special boat for special missions with special equipment and a special crew. Losharik steers.

        Did you watch the news?
        Recently "otulil", God forbid, will cost overhaul ...
        And it will be like with the PD - our valiant Konashenkovsky lies: "we will raise him tomorrow and cure him ..." And six months later - it is already clear. that the patient already had to dismember and push off the cliff ...
        1. -7
          18 October 2019 19: 24
          Recently "otulil", God forbid, will cost overhaul ...

          Well, tell us about your mighty Israeli submarine fleet.
          1. +36
            18 October 2019 19: 45
            Quote: lucul
            Recently "otulil", God forbid, will cost overhaul ...

            Well, tell us about your mighty Israeli submarine fleet.


            And you explain that I live in Samara?
            And he began working at 18 aircraft factory and had access to vultures equal to the army general. for mobility systems?

            The lies of our military newsmakers are not sickened? No?
            Me here. as a patriot of his country, who gave up 30 years of potency for defense capability - he was sick of it.
            One lie ...

            Therefore, I already began to hate the stupid Urya-Patriotism. having nothing to do with real patriotism ...
            Urya - these are only bonnets ...
            You - Urya!
            You are bonnets!
            1. -20
              18 October 2019 19: 46
              And you explain that I live in Samara?

              But drown it for Israel, it can be seen from the posts.
              1. +14
                18 October 2019 20: 01
                Quote: lucul
                And you explain that I live in Samara?

                But drown it for Israel, it can be seen from the posts.

                I am not an Israeli ...
                But I am grateful to Israel for that example. how they fight for their country.
                They are able to independently defend themselves in direct warfare and in preventive actions.
                They were not afraid of Iraq at the time of its power in the region and bombed both reactors and guns.
                Although Iraq could take and move with all its armada to Israel and no one would then pickle.
                But even Hussein understood. that from there he will not return.

                I have been to Arab countries many times, many countries, but have never been to Israel.
                And there is a possibility. which I will never, for there are prerequisites.
                But ...
                I saw Arabs from the inside. spent there a total of almost a year.
                And I don't understand how a Russian person can "drown" for the Arabs ...
                I do not understand...
                and your attempts to carry something there against the Israelis and for the Arabs, I consider it simply stupid.
                You just don’t understand who you are protecting.
                Arab - will never be honest with the "infidel" ...
                never.
                And you are infidels, you protect them ...
                Fools ...
                1. +24
                  18 October 2019 21: 38
                  Quote: SovAr238A
                  Arab - will never be honest with the "infidel" ...
                  never.

                  Like the other side is better for goys?

                  And yes, at the same time, Hussein was stopped by America behind Israel ... If there weren’t the USA, Israel would have been crushed long ago, back in the 50-60s ....
                  1. +6
                    18 October 2019 22: 30
                    Quote: your1970
                    Israel would have long been grabbed back in the 50-60s ....

                    It should be noted that in the early years the United States was of little use. Even Comrade Stalin first sent some rifles through the countries of people's democracy, and these all turned a goat’s face.
                    1. +3
                      19 October 2019 00: 24
                      Plus! And not just guns. And the Czechs 109th delivered (more precisely WE) .etc. and t ..
                  2. -1
                    18 October 2019 22: 54
                    Quote: your1970
                    Quote: SovAr238A
                    Arab - will never be honest with the "infidel" ...
                    never.

                    Like the other side is better for goys?

                    And yes, at the same time, Hussein was stopped by America behind Israel ... If there weren’t the USA, Israel would have been crushed long ago, back in the 50-60s ....

                    You recall how the Israelites sank the Amer boat?
                    Which interfered with them?
                    1. 0
                      19 October 2019 00: 29
                      Bear 19 ... everyone got it
                    2. +4
                      20 October 2019 14: 32
                      Quote: SovAr238A
                      Did the Israelis sunk the Amer boat?
                      Which interfered with them?
                      if the owner machine tools that print dollars would be Russian- USSR together with the United States would drive the rest of the world .....

                      That is why Israel is allowed everything. It will be necessary - they and the American aircraft carrier will crash ...

                      Jews have dinner with a girl; they later dance her (c) anecdote
                  3. 0
                    19 October 2019 09: 14
                    Both are worse ...
                2. +7
                  18 October 2019 22: 29
                  Well, for the `` correct '' Jew, you are my friend, then, not a person, but GOY !!! That unfamiliar words are so goggle ... but this is by the way, and so I am ready to subscribe to your words about the Arabs (in general) and the Arab world (in particular) ... And the fact that we are now `` drowning '' for Syria will not interfere with this ..stab us in the back (on occasion) .. as the Israeli pilots set up our Il, by the way ... Total. Russia should have only two allies; ARMY and FLEET ... in my opinion, it is relevant and not in the XXI century ...
                  1. +4
                    19 October 2019 08: 42
                    I will reconcile you, except for the Soviet ordinary man who for the most part naively believes in good trusting; all the rest morally murdered by capitalism and all kinds of religions, they can sometimes become supposedly good friends after a whip.
                  2. +5
                    19 October 2019 12: 01
                    Good afternoon! MB, 3 allies: 1. The Russian people; 2. The army; 3. The fleet? For in the presence of an army and navy, but in the absence of the Russian people, will Russia be capable of anything? And if it does, then to whose benefit will its abilities be directed, in this case?
                  3. -1
                    19 October 2019 21: 20
                    Well, for the `` correct '' Jew, you are my friend, then, not a person, but GOY !!! That unfamiliar words are so GOGLIT ...
                    =======
                    What distant village are you from, dear? You advise people to google, but they did not bother ... For a righteous, as well as a wrong Jew you are a goy, like any Arab, etc. for the simple reason that this word means no more than NOT JEWS. Previously, this word was used as the PEOPLE (including Jews); today it is used to refer to a representative of any nation except Jews. Open the Bible and read, there this word is used 620 times ...
                3. +4
                  19 October 2019 07: 12
                  Quote: SovAr238A
                  They are able to independently defend themselves in direct warfare and in preventive actions.

                  If the United States did not “cover” the state of Israel, the surrounding Arab countries would have trampled it down long ago! For a long time, even in spite of all the shortcomings of the Arabs.
                4. +3
                  20 October 2019 08: 44
                  all the power of Israel rests on the Jewish diaspora in the United States and a little Europe and Russia. And they had to fight with the public, who have never historically shown themselves to be warriors ...
                  But we know that anyone can throw the United States, then Israel has one-on-one chances with the Arabs - not so many .. Although yes, the Arabs are not warriors, but the Israelis will need to fight to the last and then the map will lie down
                5. +2
                  20 October 2019 10: 46
                  Quote: SovAr238A
                  They are able to independently defend themselves in direct warfare and in preventive actions.


                  Independently, with constant American subsidies.
            2. +8
              19 October 2019 02: 00
              Quote: SovAr238A
              And he began working at 18 aircraft factory and had access to vultures equal to the army general. for mobility systems?

              Ay, you wouldn’t make it. My father served in the military police department, for a submarine base in (in) Ukraine, he signed a piece of paper for 25 years on non-disclosure, after 5 years the country didn’t become one, but because of this piece of paper the FSB wrapped me up already in 2005 when trying to get a sailor’s passport, and my sidekicks sailed away on Sedov without me. so this is what’s what, he had the rank of foreman 1 tbsp. not an engineer, not a general. And if you would have had access to some supposedly secret pieces of paper, you’d go to hell in Arab countries. You wouldn’t be let out
              1. +4
                19 October 2019 09: 05
                That is why he was with the Arabs, on the "defense", and will never be in Israel. Didn't it occur to you?
              2. 0
                24 November 2019 01: 04
                Right EITI. laughing
                PDSS-submarine sabotage forces and means.
                PPDO-anti-underwater sabotage defense.
                Not ABOUT OO. Separate Unit. I once oversaw 311 PA EITIs, this is the Kamchatka Flotilla. Had an F-1 clearance. I did not give any subscription for 25 years. Five years later, normally traveled as a tourist for the cordon, already being in Ukraine.
            3. +18
              19 October 2019 02: 51
              Quote: SovAr238A
              Me here. as a patriot of his country, who gave up 30 years of potency for defense capability - he was sick of it.
              One lie ...

              Therefore, I already began to hate the stupid Urya-Patriotism. having nothing to do with real patriotism ..

              Long ago I noticed one regularity, a limited person shouts "Urya" loudest of all. The most ardent "patriots", often people who did not even have conscripted military service. Who really is, represents something: he has served a decent period in the power structures, has access to state secrets, or high-class specialists of the military-industrial complex will never "shrug off". No.
              1. 0
                19 October 2019 04: 11
                ... so the commissars quack ..
            4. +6
              19 October 2019 19: 09
              had access to vultures equal to the army general. for mobility systems?


              None of the people who worked with the state secret will not write such nonsense
              1. -8
                19 October 2019 20: 05
                Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                had access to vultures equal to the army general. for mobility systems?


                None of the people who worked with the state secret will not write such nonsense


                And I didn’t work with the state secretary - I just had permissions to the mobile reserve warehouses in the region.
                What is this level?
                1. +1
                  19 October 2019 21: 31
                  How to say, a professional will write like: "I have all the letters second" (I had one) - I skewed from the first;)
                  1. -8
                    19 October 2019 22: 32
                    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                    How to say, a professional will write like: "I have all the letters second" (I had one) - I skewed from the first;)

                    I am not special in secrets. I wrote that there is.
                    If I don't care about this business - can you understand this?
                    I have already passed 25 years - the maximum.
                    I know what I know. been there. where I've been.
                    I have not seen or heard any additional letters.
                    I know only the category and that's it. because for her undersigned.
            5. +6
              20 October 2019 06: 34
              You seem to have a security clearance, burn before reading. Whoever is in the subject will understand.
            6. -2
              21 October 2019 21: 09
              Well then go and surrender to the mercy of the winner, "patriot" premature!
            7. 0
              21 December 2019 10: 24
              You know, without reference to this article, but really having read Two pages of your comments, I still looked
              «There is no prophet in his own country - all your own, native, domestic: thoughts, ideas, judgments, products, advice, language is bad, not true, false, not appreciated ”

              Nevertheless, in politics and military affairs, the result is accepted, and not what they write about him on the Internet and in news agencies.

              One can relate to how one country behaves, having a critical financial and military advantage over its neighbors.
              But I think it’s worth understanding that in another country, these methods will not work. As a consequence of differences in the physical characteristics of countries. So in consequence of the fact that the main opponents of this country are not its neighbors. And she does not have any critical financial and military advantage over her opponents.

              And to blindly copy the “progressive methods” of management without understanding, let’s dismiss everyone for 200 years.

              Yes, and historical facts say, they even shout to us only that our country is strong and rich only when it does not copy these “progressive methods”.

              Therefore, and no matter how personally you do not like one small and proud country. But it is necessary to study, compare and analyze, only those examples and samples that have really confirmed facts of application and use in our country. And do not call people who do so “cheers patriots” because this is generally purely your evaluative opinion.
    2. +3
      19 October 2019 10: 53
      If you are talking about the tragedy of 1989, then it revealed the unacceptable disorder and negligence of crew training, monitoring the condition of the boat, the lack of professionalism of the captain, who thought only how to cover the fifth point and refused to recognize the need for evacuation ...
  2. 0
    18 October 2019 15: 23
    But what about "Losharik"? And the author dug the internet dug ... but never dug it?
    1. -9
      18 October 2019 19: 03
      Quote: purple
      But what about "Losharik"? And the author dug the internet dug ... but never dug it?


      And what is Losharik you saw?
      Well, is there a body diagram?
    2. -9
      18 October 2019 19: 28
      But what about "Losharik"? And the author dug the internet dug ... but never dug it?

      The author has not yet departed from the widely publicized in the 80s, propaganda of the Japanese technological advantage. Which has sunk into oblivion with the collapse of the USSR, but many refuse to admit it, out of habit believing propaganda.
      This disease of many who found the USSR, not everyone is able to resist propaganda ...
      1. +12
        18 October 2019 22: 29
        The author has not yet departed from the widely advertised in 80-e, propaganda of the Japanese technological advantage

        You look at Japanese cars. and you don’t need to go anywhere

        This is not just a technique, it is the work of masters
        1. AML
          +7
          19 October 2019 03: 58
          Did you mean "old Japanese cars"? Well, the Germans were also wow. Keyword were
          1. +3
            19 October 2019 05: 38
            Old Japanese cars (somewhere until the middle of the 2010x) are the standard of reliability. A somewhat archaic design with exceptional attention to detail and design

            Modern Japanese women beat everyone with their technology. At the same time, even with two turbines and rear-wheel steering wheels, they will be more reliable than any Mercedes
            1. +5
              19 October 2019 15: 30
              Japanese women, like most modern cars, have already become massive, relatively cheap and unreliable. Your opinion about the reliability of yap auto archaic and originally from the 90s. The last "80th maize" is the most reliable car. After it, the quality drops.

              Your article is written incomprehensibly. there is no answer to the questions: are boats with a greater depth of immersion than those already created needed, or not? if necessary, then what is the problem in choosing steel or in choosing reinforcement.

              In the comments, you generally remembered the auto industry. Are you trying to judge the quality of Japanese boats by cars? smile
              1. +1
                19 October 2019 21: 36
                Quote: Angelo Provolone
                Japanese women, like most modern cars have already become massive, relatively cheap and unreliable

                Angelo, they conquered the world car market, like massive, cheap unpretentious cars

                Starting in the 90s, they began to actively press the premium segment, and by now they have achieved their goals. German "big three" wiped out

                Yapy do everything - from the unpretentious Camry with 2,4 aspirated, to some Infinity with turbo engines and modern mechatronics, which is more complicated than BMW
                Quote: Angelo Provolone
                Do you need boats with a greater depth of immersion than already created, or not?

                In theory, of course they are needed, but the decision to build such boats is unreasonable, if technically possible
                1. +2
                  22 October 2019 01: 27
                  "Starting in the 90s, they began to actively pressurize the premium segment, and by now they have achieved their goals. The German Big Three have wiped out."
                  What did the German Big Three do? What are you talking about? Rich people, as they drove Mercedes, so they drive, and they are unlikely to switch to any Asiaticism. Come to Moscow and see how many Maybachs and all sorts of Heliks there travels in the center. What Lexus, what Acura from Infinity. In the premium class, the Germans confidently hold the lead.
                  1. -2
                    22 October 2019 04: 52
                    Dear, Moscow is not the whole world market, it is not an indicator here
                    In many other countries, the situation is: there is a middle class who no longer want a Camry, but it's too early to take the top-end Cayenne. There are unreasonably expensive "entry-level" Mercedes with 2-liter engines. And then bam - Lexus is driving. Or Infiniti. Offering significantly more opportunities for the same money

                    What did the German Big Three do? Lost 2/3 of the market in this segment
                    Lexus was the top-selling premium brand in the United States for 11 years in a row until the 2011 year when BMW and Mercedes-Benz overtook the Japanese brand. Lexus returns to race in 2015 (Google Translate)

                    Further, not a single Mercedes. For very wealthy people, the Japanese can offer unique "top" models.
                    For those who are bored with BMW 7-ka and S-class - offer Lexus LS
                    For young majors - Nissan GTR, the fastest car in the world that can be ordered from an ordinary dealer
                    For lovers of two-doors - Lexus RC-F and LC, the latter can not be distinguished from the rear from a Ferrari
                    Etc.

                    And you are Moscow ... a contingent secondary market that you don’t even want to mess with. Where the only symbol of success is the 600 Merc, and the rest is Camry
                    1. +1
                      22 October 2019 13: 31
                      "Moscow ... is a minor secondary market that they don't even want to get involved with."
                      What nonsense. What difference does it make to Moscow or some American city, if there is an opportunity to make money on sales of your cars? Another thing is that they simply don’t have such sales as the Germans (Europeans) in the PREMIUM SEGMENT, about which you yourself wrote above. Later you started moving to the middle class (you probably realized that you got excited laughing) Here, yes, the Japanese feel much better. But initially it was about the premium segment.
                      1. -1
                        22 October 2019 20: 17
                        What's the difference?
                        A city of 10 million or a country of 300 million. That’s the difference. The Moscow market is not an indicator.

                        PREMIUM SEGMENT DOES NOT GO SALES

                        11 for years in a row is the best-selling premium brand in the US market, and after a short break it is again the best (Lexus)

                        Try to challenge this fact))
                      2. +1
                        22 October 2019 21: 54
                        "the best selling premium brand in the American market"
                        So they would immediately write that in the United States. On this occasion, everything was intelligibly written by bar, I will not repeat myself about the specifics of this market.
                        "A city for 10 million or a country for 300 million."
                        A strange comparison, a city with a whole country to compare. For me, the American market is not an indicator; I live in Russia, in Moscow. wink
                      3. -1
                        22 October 2019 23: 39
                        For me, the American market is not an indicator, I am in Russia, I live in Moscow

                        Rightly so, but it was about the technology and capabilities of the Japanese auto industry. And if so, you need to look at the overall situation on the world market, and the tastes of the Moscow public are not an indicator.

                        We just don't have access to really cool Japanese cars. And there are not enough buyers either in the business segment or in the elite. Who has a lot of money - they are in a hurry to take the 600 Merc or a black boomer, a symbol of wealth in the post-Soviet space

                        In the rest of the world, the Japanese simply overwhelmed everyone with their models, in any segment they offer more features for the same money as competitors, and their premium cars - works of art and an alloy of technology, are cooler and bolder in design than the snickering Germans
                      4. +1
                        23 October 2019 02: 13
                        "In the rest of the world, the Japanese just bombarded everyone with their models."
                        A bold statement. Is there evidence of your words in the form of sales data in the same premium segment? Because it is in it, as you wrote earlier, that you "erased the big three". Or do you have the rest of the world again the United States?
                        "and their premium cars are works of art and a fusion of technology, cooler and bolder in design than snickering Germans"
                        Yes you are just a zealous Japanese-phil laughing And why are the Germans not their works of art Maybach? With technology, everything is buzzing too. In general, this topic is subjective, a matter of taste. For me, the Germans look cooler, more solid, more confident in themselves.
                      5. -1
                        23 October 2019 05: 22
                        Quote: Alexey Vasilievich I
                        And why are the Germans not their works of art Maybach?

                        20 million rubles. Piece production, machine at the price of the PALACE. Alex, speaking about bold designs, I meant more familiar things. Compare BMW 7 and Lexus LS

                        The Japanese always have a choice of classmates - "innovator and conservative". An example is the top Toyota Avalon, along with the Lexus ES and the even more youthful IS. A similar situation is Nissan / Infinity - top Maxima and Q50

                        But let's move on to world numbers.

                        From the Lexus semi-annual report (2019) - over the past 12 months, 700 thousand cars have been sold. Mercedes for the same period sold 2,4 million. But there is one BUT. Lexus - pure premium... And among the sales of Mercedes - a significant share are the freaks A / CLA / GLA, who are considered "premium" only in the imagination of simpletons, glad that they could afford the "Mercedes". I do not care that the small and 2 liter motor. Minus 600+ thousand cars! Minus B class, minus C class. This is NOT premium

                        The Japanese have a reverse situation - in addition to the Lexus itself, premium cars, such as the Landcruiser, are sold under the Toyota brand. 170 countries - 400 of thousands of top SUVs!

                        I had this in mind when I talked about the Japanese onslaught on German brands.
                        Quote: Alexey Vasilievich I
                        For me, the Germans look cooler, more solid, more confident in themselves.

                        While you see them in the picture. when it comes to a real purchase, it will immediately turn out that confidence in the C-class is somehow not enough. For the same money, more confidence in the Acura TLX with the 3,5 engine, with a full set of options, all-wheel drive and elephant design (A-Spec)

                        And to allow a Mercedes of this level (and this is not less than the C43 amg) - you have to re-burn twice as much. But for twice as much - the Japanese already offer the Lexus GS F Series

                        Sincerely.
        2. -4
          19 October 2019 06: 12
          You look at Japanese cars. and you don’t need to go anywhere

          This is not just a technique, it is the work of masters

          And what is there to look at?
          To Camry's tin can? )))
          The entire line of Audi alone completely interrupts any line of the Japanese.
          1. +3
            19 October 2019 06: 29
            How can you compare them. Audi premium brand

            Against the German "big three", the Japanese rolled out their three - Infinity, Akura, Lexus. This is the scale of the battle!

            And on trifles, they threw all the automakers behind the scruff, the Nissan Gaddy rolled up the Toyota, Toyota has been crushing 15 for years with the coolest hybrids for vegans and environmental lovers))) and for fans of Rrrrrr there will always be Subaru
            1. bar
              +1
              19 October 2019 11: 24
              Against the German "big three", the Japanese rolled out their three - Infinity, Akura, Lexus. This is the scale of the battle!

              I understand that you are far from automotive. Just let me know that Infinity, Acura, Lexus are cars for American market... And they rolled them out against the American "big three" - Ford, and Chrysler. There is no one to name Japanese products on the European market. Well, maybe with the exception of budget "Japanese vases" Nissan.
              1. -1
                19 October 2019 21: 43
                Quote: bar
                I’ll just inform you that Infinity, Acura, Lexus are cars for the American market.

                This is known. The US market is larger than all European and Asian markets, this is an indicator, all the main battles are taking place there.

                Premium Japanese brands - aimed against German. Toyota Ford is competing with Ford. Chrysler has long fallen in this battle and will not come to life
                1. bar
                  -4
                  19 October 2019 21: 49
                  The US market is larger than all European and Asian markets, this is an indicator, all the main battles are taking place there.

                  The US market is specific because of the specific requirements of Americans for cars. And among these requirements, high technology is far from a priority.
                  1. -1
                    19 October 2019 21: 58
                    Quote: bar
                    The US market is specific because of the specific requirements of Americans for cars. And among these requirements, high technology is far from a priority.

                    The specificity of the Amer market is more than anywhere else people willing to pay big money for cars.

                    The Germans fiercely grappled with the Japanese, they have no other real competitors in the premium segment.


                    The second difference is a wide layer of the middle class. Which no longer want to drive a Camry, but still cannot afford the Lexus LS. And here is the real expanse for Akura with Infinity, the Germans can not offer anything decent for the money. Unlike the really impressive Q50 / 60 and TLX / RDX / MDX
                    1. bar
                      -2
                      19 October 2019 22: 20
                      The specificity of the Amer market is more than anywhere else people willing to pay big money for cars.

                      The specificity of the American market is that the main thing in cars is dimensions and mechanical strength (since Americans do not bother themselves with special car care). Requirements such as handling, fuel efficiency, environmental friendliness (oddly enough) are practically irrelevant for them. Hence, there is no special need for high technologies, "skin-mug-all-round" is quite sufficient for them, even for their sophisticated "middle class".
                      I understand your Japaneseophilism in combination with Pindophilia, but I can’t share it. For I do not want to sin against the truth.
                2. +1
                  19 October 2019 21: 58
                  Quote: Santa Fe
                  Chrysler has long fallen in this battle and will not come to life

                  And what's wrong with Chrysler sales?
                  In 2018, FCA US had its highest sales in 17 years with Jeep, Ram and the Dodge Challenger selling in record numbers.


                  Jeep Wrangler © FCA
                  FCA US increased sales by 9% in 2018 to 2,235,204 vehicles sold. Jeep brand sales increased by 17 percent to a record 973,227 with Ram sales up 7% to a new record of 597,368 vehicles in 2018. Alfa Romeo's 2018 annual sales almost doubled to a record 23,820
                  1. 0
                    19 October 2019 22: 05
                    Quote: Town Hall
                    And what's wrong with Chrysler sales?

                    Only at the expense of Jeeps, Dodge and Ram
                    specific american truck segment

                    Chrysler brand itself is dead, only 2 models on the 300 market and Pacific minivan. The bits of a great past
                    1. bar
                      -1
                      19 October 2019 22: 23
                      Chrysler itself is already the sixth year as 100% owned by the Italian Fiat.
            2. bar
              -5
              19 October 2019 22: 29
              How can you compare them. Audi premium brand

              Is your favorite Lexus from Taeta a budget brand?
          2. bar
            -1
            19 October 2019 11: 19
            Shchaz sectarians of "legendary Japanese quality" will shower you with cons laughing
            1. -1
              19 October 2019 16: 04
              As a person familiar with the car market, Sakhalin is probably a plus. When it turns out that four-wheel drive on Japanese cars even such as Toyota Corolla and Nissan Mikra are just an option, then they are climbing their eyes. The Germans all-wheel drive is at least an event about which they blow and give a separate name.
            2. -1
              19 October 2019 21: 49
              Quote: bar
              the sectarians of the "legendary Japanese quality" will shower you with cons

              Quality - not in the ability to ride a bucket of 20 years

              Quality is about to enter a turn at a speed with almost no roll.
              Quality - shoot with 2 liters of 250 hp And from three liters, with two turbines - 400
              Japanese car industry kicks German big three
              1. bar
                0
                19 October 2019 21: 59
                Japanese car industry kicks German big three

                Oleg, I already advised you not to look for arguments in areas that you are far from. Look funny.
                The level of achievements in the automotive industry can be judged by at least the same F-1 races, where cars absorb all the possible achievements of countries and manufacturers. Are many Japanese companies represented in this sport? I will say - exactly one, Honda. And she delivers only engines. And her achievements against the background of European firms are extremely limited.
                1. +1
                  22 October 2019 01: 42
                  "The level of achievements in the automotive industry can be judged at least by the same F-1 races, where cars incorporate all the possible achievements of countries and manufacturers."
                  I completely agree. European automakers are at least keeping up with the Japanese in this regard. Simply, the Japanese are primarily attracted by the price-quality ratio.
                  1. bar
                    -4
                    22 October 2019 08: 40
                    Simply, the Japanese are primarily attracted by the price-quality ratio.

                    It was a long time ago. The legendary Japanese quality of cars is gone, the bodies rot no worse than all the others, reliability is provided only due to the old-fashioned proven design, there are no "technological breakthroughs" at all, everything is boring and dull. But they keep the prices at the proper height, corresponding to the previous quality, which they still remember.
              2. +1
                24 October 2019 18: 18
                It's strange. VW (never premium) on the Golf R removed 300 from 2 liters, and the "low-quality" Audi - 400 from 2.5 liters.
                And two questions. Who was the first to apply all the described high technologies in the automotive industry, because innovation is precisely the invention and the first application, isn't it? The premium quality of the Japanese in relation to their lineup is strange: I like the Q60, the design has sunk into my soul, I want a powerful engine (so Rrrrr)! How can there be no more powerful engine than a 405? How is there only 2 of them ?! This is what repels a lot of really premium clients; a person likes the design, he likes the interior, but he cannot "build" a car for himself, for example, he wants a coupe (because it is nraitsa), but with a diesel engine (because Europe), or maybe he is ready to pay extra to fly. But alas ... There is not a lot of variability of power plants within one model. Go to tuning, the company has no opportunity. What then is premium?
                1. 0
                  25 October 2019 00: 55
                  The creators of the Golf R (288 hp) rolled a price tag of almost 3 million for it. And as you rightly pointed out, this is never a premium. But the Germans apparently consider him a cool sports car.

                  Accord-10 removes 250 and is positioned like a regular mass car

                  If you are no longer happy with Q60 RED, you are probably one of those who do not count money. Then why do you need an initial premium. Maybe you should take a closer look at the Lexus LC coupe or Nissan GTR (probably the fastest that is found on the roads from serial cars)

                  Not a mechanic, but I have access to almost any of the models. All that I know - the Japanese offer unique characteristics that German manufacturers consider an attribute of top-end cars and tear inadequate amounts for it. Perhaps this is the technological level - that the competitor is top class, the Japanese are mundane

                  Subjectively - I want to note the Japanese attention to detail. Leather with small perforations, all the elements inside are double curvature surfaces (there are no simple straight lines like Germans, like an oak bench), the key is shaped like the handle of a dagger, etc., making even the most expensive car a work of art
                  1. 0
                    25 October 2019 07: 08
                    I mastered the whole branch.

                    Yes, it is valid for the Golf R (in the USA it’s true 288 hp, in Europe - 300) they ask for $ 40000 (Kazzli!), Civic Type R (306 hp) from 36000.
                    https://automobiles.honda.com/tools/car-comparison?anchor=51232&competitors=51356,49370,49597
                    Almost 10 percent and that’s a lot. Then Honda begins to beat with technology: the box is only manual (you can choose from Golf), the drive to the front axle (Golf is complete with the ability to transfer up to 100 percent of the moment). Technology is definitely not with the Germans. But this is not premium, yes.

                    About Q60. You literally offer me the following: "We are so glad that you liked our car and we have an offer that will suit you! Come out, then, then go to the right and, after two intersections, to the left. Our competitors are there." (RED from 60)! Okay ... Let's go convertible. How is it not? Back in Lexus !?

                    Below you have a comparison of BMW and Acura, Infinity, Lexus. I really liked your comment about BMW, except for jokes.
                    BMW with two liters ... And that’s it. But Akura has such a spectrum, isn't it?
                    We look:
                    Akura - https://www.acura.com/tlx/pricing-and-specs (V6 A-Spec - 42800)
                    BMW - https://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/3-series/sedan/pricing-features.html (330 - 40750)
                    Dviglo: 3.5 - 290 hp, 2.0 - 255 (Deutsch is more technologically advanced)
                    On the configuration is ready to discuss later, because I do not have time.

                    And now about the future. I always found myself thinking that I am massively engaged in the innovations of MB.

                    C-Class - 43100 (with Driver Assisting Package)
                    https://www.mbusa.com/en/vehicles/model/c-class/sedan/c300w#packages
                    Akura helps to keep the strip using the camera, but does not guarantee its operation when the markings are not visible (snow, rain, fog). MB - does everything the same, but it also uses the radar and can monitor other vehicles and objects to help maintain the trajectory (if the markings are gone, then other objects are used). MB can rebuild from strip to strip itself. Read, there are many interesting things. Is this an option? Yes. But! She is! On a car of this class, she does not send the car to another class. The competitors simply do not have this, even for money. This is the technology of the future, this is innovation in the segment. Then it will appear at all. But now at MB.

                    In my opinion, what you value in the Japanese is not premium, nor innovation. You value accessibility and mass character.
                    1. 0
                      25 October 2019 09: 31
                      Sergey, Civic Type R, like sports Golf - in my opinion, a stupid wiring. Too small for its price tag. And they are not athletes with such an engine, no matter how their fans puffed up. Honda's only theoretical merit is the best ring time among front-wheel drive cars (which are actually not designed for racing).

                      I like Q60 (RED by 57000)! - Do not forget the cost of delivery, registration with a dealer and tax that are never included in the price. Flies under 70 000, scary prices. Going into an even more expensive category of infinity has not yet been decided. Of all the Japanese, only Lexus was able to break into the category under 100k and above.

                      However, the main battles are being fought at lower altitudes - 40-50 thousand. And there the Japanese tear everyone to pieces, Lexus - for 11 years it was the best-selling premium brand. Because the Japanese know how to make a balanced car for any money. Germans - normally only know how to manually assemble an S-class, for 40-50 thousand (and after all, a lot of money!) can not offer anything decent
                      Dviglo: 3.5 - 290 hp, 2.0 - 255 (Deutsch is more technologically advanced)

                      1) The current generation of Akura TLX is completing its cycle - the paparazzi have already spotted its heir. The number 290 - these are the indicators achieved many years ago
                      2) Acura has a naturally aspirated engine

                      Akura knows his audience. Acura buyers will opt for the three-liter V6 instead of the reformed 2.0 turbo. Fewer problems, less headaches. It was possible to pour ordinary benz into this Honda engine. Over time, the TLX has little to lose in value.
                      MB - does everything as well, but still uses radar

                      A spacecraft with a radar and a bunch of sensors for auto-braking stands on almost any of the modern sedans / coupes
                      These are the technologies of the future, these are innovations in the segment

                      Do not believe everything indicated on the Accord 10 generation (Honda Sensing), whose cost starts somewhere with 30 000 (charged)

                      That's the whole story with C-Class innovations. Give a three-liter engine and a more solid design for 50 thousand dollars, otherwise this is a brazen scam
                      Quote: Blaze
                      In my opinion, what you value in the Japanese is not premium, nor innovation. You value accessibility and mass character.

                      Do the same thing as the Germans, providing a better balance of characteristics and lower cost. And sometimes both.
                      And, of course, their designs!
                      1. +1
                        25 October 2019 14: 20
                        I propose, firstly, to immediately avoid double standards. Because I definitely do not understand how to relate to:
                        a) "The quality is to remove 300 hp from two liters"
                        b) "To remove 255 hp from two liters it is overturbation"
                        Both eyes are yours. 300 h.p. Is it a quality overturbation? Or overturbed quality?
                        Secondly, design is flavoring. Do you like the design, someone does not.
                        Thirdly, IMHO I suggest to designate. Hot hats have a whole pantheon of cars, and fans. Are there all the fools?

                        Honda Sensing: we know how to brake, knows how to use the camera to determine the lane (does not work when the markings are difficult to distinguish).
                        Mercedes: the same thing, but when the markup is not visible, we can navigate to other objects and work. We are able to work in a shared network. We are able to determine special signals and warn other cars in the area.
                        The technological level is different, the devil is in the details. Akura can't even do that for money.

                        Big Mac is the most popular burger in its class, but is it the best?
                      2. The comment was deleted.
                      3. 0
                        25 October 2019 15: 44
                        And from what year was the best-selling Lexus? Since 2016, MB is still the leader.
                      4. 0
                        25 October 2019 17: 39
                        I suggest first of all to avoid disputes about the obvious. There is a temporary gap between the indicated motors. Mears removed 240 + from the 2.0 volume five years ago. The result is predictable - such merci on the secondary market are paid for nothing (relative to their initial cost)

                        If the ratio of the performance of a modern motor (hp, moment, volume) is set for the serial 1960-x motor, it is possible that it will fall apart on the next day

                        Now that the time has come, Accord has learned to shoot 250, with a third lower price tag and traditionally without reliability problems (and this is an important quality for that segment). And this is never a premium. Such a machine has the right to success - the best-selling with Camry.

                        Further. The Japanese machine behind 25 000 has the 3 / 4 standard of Mercian “innovations.” This is not an option. Lexus ES has everything. Classmates are equipped with electronics of the same level, no matter how their manufacturers stand out, emphasizing their "exclusivity". And could it be otherwise in the modern world?
                        The same technologies under different designations, first introduced in the top versions and then shifted down.

                        Hot hatch, like other weird cars like a jeep ranger, is a particular market. This became possible due to an increase in the standard of living and the desire for something unusual, i.e. merit of marketers. But most buyers still have more classic ideas about the car for 40 pieces.

                        The main quality of such machines, they must be powerful and solid. And this is the main reason that justifies the price tag 40-50 thousand and higher

                        And all the innovations of the C-class are down the drain when he buzzes with his motor in a second at 4000 revolutions. As well as E300. Terrible Buyer Scam

                        Lexus was the best 11 years in a row before 2015, and it remains the best de facto. Merce pulled ahead only at the expense of his A / CLA about which it has been said enough
          3. +1
            19 October 2019 19: 16
            In my family, Japanese cars will soon be one and a half decades. Now there are also two new good Japanese women who we love very much, we value and consciously chose instead of the German counterparts.

            If Lukul has two brand new Cayenne in his family, I will envy him kindly. But this is unlikely.
            Not a single normal motorist will call Camry a bank (I have far from Camry :))

            Wangyu, he walks on foot.
        3. bar
          +1
          19 October 2019 10: 49
          You look at Japanese cars. and you don’t need to go anywhere

          Yeah, at least for the same tayets, frozen at the technological level of the late 90s, and parasitizing on the "legendary Japanese quality", which has long been gone. I'm afraid you're even more of a dilettante in the automotive industry.
          1. -3
            19 October 2019 11: 18
            We got it already with Toyota, there is no and should not be any frills, this is a massive budget clunker

            For the technology of the future - contact Lexus and Akura

            Ps /
            What does it mean parasitic - Toyota sells Camry as a budget car for the money that competitors in this segment cost. The car is excellent for its class. Sales go to 5 +
            1. bar
              +1
              19 October 2019 11: 36
              We got it already with Toyota, there is no and should not be any frills, this is a massive budget clunker

              "Jupiter, you are angry - that means you are wrong" laughing

              For the technology of the future - contact Lexus and Akura

              In order not to be unfounded, give at least a couple of "technologies of the future" that have found application in these behemoths for the American market, which are not in the same cars, Mercedes and BMWs?
              Purely friendly advice - no need to climb over arguments in an area that you know only by hearsay about.
              1. -1
                19 October 2019 22: 02
                Quote: bar
                In order not to be unfounded, give at least a couple of "technologies of the future" that have found application in these behemoths for the American market, which are not in the same cars, Mercedes and BMWs?

                P-AWS rear-wheel-drive steering system standard for the Acura Sedan

                2-liter engine of the Accord of the 10-generation, 252 hp, with which it vomits the 530-th BMW
                1. bar
                  -4
                  19 October 2019 22: 11
                  The rear-wheel steering system has been known for a long time, both active and passive. And it even applies to the budget European Ford Focus.
                  As for engines, the 1,6 liter Mercedes engine with 800 hp. coupled with a similar Ferrari engine in the F-1 they tear the engine of the same Honda as a tusik heating pad. And this is not counting the fact that in addition to engines, Mercedes and Ferrari are also made by the cars themselves, unlike Honda.
                  Once again, I kindly propose to stop and not delve into the topic in which you are an amateur.
                  1. -1
                    19 October 2019 22: 57
                    bar, you are in the subject - zero. All your conclusions - from viewing the 1 formula, where toys with disposable engines are worn around

                    When it comes to real buying, your opinion will change dramatically. And you will understand everything without too much philosophy and examples f-1

                    What are the options on the market with the purchase of an entry-level business sedan.

                    BMW three with 2-liter engine

                    For the same money - Akura TLH with A-Spec kit, red erysipelas, 3,5 aspirated, 300 hp, a full range of technologies - from active steering wheels to autopilot with a lane retention system. Soft steering wheel, front-wheel drive, very driver-friendly

                    Infinity Q50 - 3 liter turbo, rear-wheel drive, rushing like a tank

                    There are still Lexuses, but in this segment they do not consider me. IS is beautiful and comfortable inside, but now it’s silly to buy it, a new generation is coming. ES updated in 2018 - front-wheel drive, 300ls surprisingly harmonious interior but it has the surroundings of an old car

                    My choice is q50, the Germans with their 2 liters and extra charge for options are not even considered. Approximately also consider the majority of buyers. True, people respect Akura for reliability and friendliness, but it reminds me of a bag of milk, not as sharp as a date

                    That's the whole market layout
                    1. bar
                      -3
                      20 October 2019 08: 03
                      Oleg, no offense to you, but I've been in the subject all my life. I am a design engineer for cars, and have worked in my field for almost 40 years. And your amateurish reasoning is just ridiculous to me. If you want to continue to look like a clown - your right. And I'm already tired of bickering with you. hi
                      1. -2
                        20 October 2019 10: 35
                        Quote: bar
                        And your amateurish reasoning is just ridiculous to me.

                        What are they amateurish.

                        I described to you what one of the car market segments looks like. Do you disagree with something? Answer from the height of your competence. Just overwrite the engineer and call your opponent an amateur and a clown = a merged argument. I, too, can overwrite you that there are no models left in the world that I would not be able to touch from inside and outside and conduct a test drive
                      2. bar
                        -2
                        20 October 2019 10: 54
                        I described to you what one of the car market segments looks like. Do you disagree with something?

                        You described a childish view of "one of the market segments", reminiscent of an argument over who will win - an elephant or a whale. In particular, your ideal "Infiniti Q50 - 3 liter turbo, rear-wheel drive, rushing like a tank" is typically American (for whom it was created) and completely childish. Well, judge for yourself, who, for example, in our country needs this "tank" with rear-wheel drive and a ground clearance of 13 cm? And winter? And the ice? Have you been driving on a rear-wheel drive on the highway for a long time? And in Europe, no one needs it with its tank handling and tank fuel consumption. Personally, as a design engineer, I am just jarred at the idea of ​​using a 1,8 ton hippo to carry a maximum of two asses. And Americans, on the contrary, are accustomed to two-seater unguided cars with a bus length and a drive to the rear axle. These are their traditions. With their long, straight roads and warm climate. And this is not a technological breakthrough at all, just to each his own.
                        As for Russia, crossovers are quite logical in our country. With comfortable and practical station wagon bodies, high ground clearance, and, scary to think, all-wheel drive. In this sense, in my personal opinion, the ideal car is a range / cayenne / Tuareg. And the number of technical breakthroughs in them covers all the acuras / lexus / infinity like a bull to a sheep. But from a practical point of view, for me personally, they are greatly oversized. Therefore, in my park there is a modest little Skoda Yeti for trips to the country. With a huge number of options for transforming the cabin, with a modest consumption of 7 liters per hundred, and with perfected Vag's handling. And for trips, a modest little Mercedes GLA-250, also with low consumption, but with excellent dynamics, all-wheel drive and a good ground clearance of more than 20 cm, is nadalnyak. And what do you drive?
                      3. -2
                        20 October 2019 11: 23
                        Well, judge for yourself, who, for example, in our country needs this "tank" with rear-wheel drive and a ground clearance of 13 cm?

                        We started a debate about the level of Japanese cars, you told me about the Russian winter. For such cases, all-wheel drive is available on all Japanese women as an option
                        Quote: bar
                        And in Europe, nobody needs him with his controllability of the tank and tank fuel consumption

                        All modern cars with 3-liter turbo engines have less fuel consumption than 2-liter 10 years ago

                        They all have excellent manageability, this is not even discussed. Japanese women have a softer steering wheel, but this is subjective
                        And the number of technical breakthroughs in them covers all the acura / Lexus / Infinity like a bull to a sheep. In this sense, in my personal opinion, the ideal car is a range / cayenne /

                        Of course the ideal, these machines cost from 6 millions)))
                        Quote: bar
                        crossovers.

                        Here Japanese heavy artillery comes in — powerful, heavy, spacious, but relatively affordable Akura MDX, Infinity QX60 and Lexus RX

                        they have no equal. All the Germans have to offer - the little expensive Q5 and X3, or the super expensive GLE / X5 / Q7
                        What do you ride?

                        Honda Accord
                      4. bar
                        -4
                        20 October 2019 12: 22
                        We started a debate about the level of Japanese cars-

                        And as an example of the quality of this high level, you cited the Toyota / Honda / Nissan divisions for the American market, where no high level of technology is required, but rather ordinary skin-erysipelas have gone awry and large in size. I tried to explain it to you.

                        You tell me about the Russian winter.

                        I’m telling you that there is no perfect car at all, apart from the harsh reality of life, just as there is no spherical horse in a vacuum. I did not cite the same Ferrari and McLaren as an example of high European technology. I'm talking about cars for real life, ours, and not the American that you dream of.
                      5. -1
                        20 October 2019 19: 28
                        Quote: bar
                        where no high level of technology is required, but rather ordinary skin-erysipelas-everywhere and large sizes.

                        Big sizes? What are you talking about now

                        All three of the listed sedans are analogues of the C-Class Mercedes. The Akura is subjectively more spacious inside, Lexus IS - gives the impression of the closest.

                        Technology is required to bring machines to the market that will break competitors. For the same price, the Japanese can offer incomparably largerthan the Germans (motor, options), then for some reason it always turns out that under the same conditions they achieve greater results - an example of the 2.0 Accord turbo engine, which for some reason turned out to be more powerful than the BMW-530. Disparate cost machines
                        Quote: bar
                        And for trips, the nadal is a modest little Mercedes GLA-250

                        bar, it's not even funny
                        Mercedes cannot be "modest", the small GLA-250 is like an infinity with a 3-liter turbo engine good
                      6. bar
                        -5
                        20 October 2019 19: 38
                        Technology is required to bring machines to the market that will break competitors.

                        Technology, among other things, is required to meet the increasingly stringent environmental requirements, if you did not know. Breaking up competitors is no longer in vogue. The 50s are long over.
                        Mercedes cannot be "modest", the small GLA-250 is like an infinity with a 3-liter turbo engine

                        And again, you are not in the subject. The price for QX60 starts from 3.145 tyr (I can give a link),
                        and on GLA-250 from 2.210 sp., almost a million cheaper.
                      7. -2
                        20 October 2019 19: 58
                        Quote: bar
                        Technologies, among other things, are required to meet the increasingly stringent environmental requirements, if you did not know

                        Not a single new car has problems with this, they are all identical in terms of consumption
                        consumption of three-liter engines is small - on average 11 liters. 100 km in mixed mode
                        Quote: bar
                        The price of QX60 starts from 3.145 tyr (I can give a link),
                        and on GLA-250 from 2.210 sp., almost a million cheaper.

                        Funny joke
                        QX60 is a competitor of GLC / GLE, comparing it to a tiny GLA is not even funny

                        No, bar, I meant something else. GLA-250 - a micromachine with a funny 2.0 motor, priced at 2 million, with at least some options - 2,5 is easy. For the same money, there is the Q50 Infinity Sedan with 3 liters and disparate capabilities. As for the GLA station wagon body - this is a strange excuse for such a difference in performance

                        The same crap as the C-Class, or Audi A3 / 4 or BMW-3 / 5
                        with 2 liter engines
                      8. bar
                        -4
                        20 October 2019 20: 10
                        Funny joke
                        QX60 is a competitor of GLC / GLE, comparing it to a tiny GLA is not even funny


                        And these are not your words?
                        Mercedes cannot be "modest", the small GLA-250 is like an infinity with a 3-liter turbo engine

                        You yourself joked, you yourself laugh at your own joke, you praise it yourself. This is ridiculous of course, you are an excellent clown. And most importantly, indefatigable. Another would have long understood the inappropriateness of all this and quietly merged, and you are still in the arena. laughing
                      9. -1
                        20 October 2019 20: 17
                        You then compared them seriously, you even tried to give a link to add seriousness))) hahaha

                        The price of QX60 starts from 3.145 tyr (I can give a link),
                        and on GLA-250 from 2.210 sp., almost a million cheaper.


                        In fact, generally incomparable cars, different sizes, different price segment. Now it remains to pout and remember the clowns again
                      10. bar
                        -2
                        20 October 2019 20: 33
                        You then compared them seriously, you even tried to give a link to add seriousness))) hahaha

                        So, if you re-read the first message, where I mentioned GLA-250, then tensing, perhaps you will understand what I had in mind. I can remind you:
                        from a practical point of view, for me personally, they are greatly oversized. That's why in my park ... a modest little Mercedes GLA-250 ...

                        Where did I compare your ideal QX60 for 3 + million with GLA?
                        PS
                        Personally, I'm tired of poking you nose into your next fails. And the time in our belt is already late, and tomorrow is a working day. So then, let’s do it yourself, without an ensemble. Joke yourself, laugh yourself, refute yourself. Success in the arena good
                      11. -1
                        20 October 2019 20: 49
                        Quote: bar
                        Where did I compare your ideal QX60 for 3 + million with GLA?

                        If you remove the emotions, then it was like this:

                        You wrote about the modest GLA - I strongly disagreed: Mercedes is never modest. Little booger with 2 l. motor offer for 2 + million. This is not a modesty, it is arrogance towards the buyer. The Germans snickered.

                        This situation is observed with the entire entry-level segment of German expensive brands: Mers C-class, BMW-3, Audi A3 or A4 - they bred the buyer to buy a "premium" car with a two-liter engine.

                        Japanese Lexus Infinity for the same money usually offers a three-liter V6, and a rich set of options included in the price.

                        You have objections to this, except for cries about clowns and the arena

                        QX60 is a heavy crossover, it’s not from this topic at all
                      12. +1
                        20 October 2019 16: 16
                        caught olezhka, as always ...
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        For such cases, all-wheel drive is available on all Japanese women as an option

                        for everyone? proof link to the studio.
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        They all have excellent manageability, this is not even discussed. Japanese women have a softer steering wheel, but this is subjective

                        but let's discuss! Beshka is better.
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Honda Accord

                        why not an acura?
                      13. -1
                        20 October 2019 11: 10
                        Just overwrite the engineer and call your opponent an amateur and a clown = a merged argument.


                        Yes sir!

                        Bar, arguments or sink counted.

                        Oleg, let me intervene:
                        for 2 from Nissan we buy a dull 300 hp engine
                        and this engine, as I understand it, from MERCEDES-BENZ, epic file;)
                        the box is also from Mercedes-Benz, right?
                        ground clearance at q50 as I understand it in real life is only 5 inches - it is impossible to drive in winter

                        Drive on Infinity as much as you fly on Me-262?
                      14. bar
                        0
                        20 October 2019 12: 30
                        Bar, arguments or sink counted.

                        Well, let's continue the discussion with you. What arguments and in favor of what do you need? Or will you also prove that multi-liter uncontrollable hippos with a V8 and a rear axle drive for the American market is the top of the development of technology in the automotive industry?
                      15. bar
                        -4
                        20 October 2019 12: 34
                        The site administrator has forbidden you to leave comments on this site.

                        The discussion will have to end due to circumstances beyond my control
                      16. 0
                        20 October 2019 13: 00
                        ok, let's try
                        classic machine is much more reliable and maintainable variator or DSG
                        classic aspirated much more reliable and maintainable turbocharged
                        due to such factors, for example, in the secondary Toyota-Lexus loses incomparably less Volkswagen, for example

                        the problem is that the classic Japanese quality is getting smaller

                        Nissan has never been cool, neither in the cheap segment (Primera, Teana), nor in the relatively expensive - one combination in the Murano of a variator and a 3,6 liter engine that can kill it in 10 km is already nonsense , about the fact that qx000 is a shitty GLA, I am already silent, etc.
                        Since the early 2000s, Honda has been muddying horrible "robots" and unreliable CVTs, although they have breakthroughs like the excellent suspension and power distribution system in the CRV
                        Mitsubishi blown away
                        Instead of the sports segment, Subaru has been trying to "make Toyota better than Toyota itself" since the beginning of the 2000s, and they fail, Outback is unreasonably expensive, Turbo Forik is no longer the king of crossover racing, which has become the iconic Impreza - tears
                        Remained Toyota Lexus and Mazda.

                        Toyota Lexus avoid technical adventure in the bud. But topics like 6 years of torment with the Q5 engine, like Audi, they do not.

                        In addition, let's not forget about the drawn characteristics. As Volkswagen painted its exhausts, questions about other qualities are just as problematic.
                        Let me give you a real life example of how friends decided to "sort out the Internet srach" and tested on a bet: СХ5 2016 onwards. 192 h.p. (passport 7,8 seconds to 100) against Tiguan 2018 onwards 220 h.p. (passport 6,5 seconds to 100). Overclocking characteristics are equivalent within the margin of error. I attended in person.
                        My personal opinion. All Japanese women strictly comply with the declared. The Germans, at least not always (except Porsche).
                      17. bar
                        -3
                        20 October 2019 13: 15
                        Please. Only, as in any discussion, you must first decide on the shore with its theme, so as not to embrace the immensity, and with terminology. Let me remind you - it all started with a comparison of the height of the level of technology in the automotive industry of Japan and Europe. How will we measure this level? Fuel consumption per unit of power, size of atmospheric emissions, dynamics and controllability, size of the display on the panel, softness of the seats, length and weight of the car, volume, power and indestructibility of engines, price per kilogram of iron, running meter of length or cubic meter of volume?
                      18. 0
                        20 October 2019 15: 17
                        How will we measure this level?


                        ratio of cost of ownership with a comparable level of performance;)

                        though, let's get back to the submarines better
                        honestly, I don’t know what steel they are made of, I always proceeded from the fact that titanium alloys are about twice as expensive, but what is the percentage of the cost of the hull in the cost of nuclear submarines? even if half, then this is hardly an impossible price for municipally different indicators for the depth of immersion (the ratio of densities is approximately 4,54 and 7,85)
                      19. bar
                        -5
                        20 October 2019 15: 31
                        what is the percentage of the cost of the hull in the cost of nuclear submarines?

                        Well, with such questions not to me. And hardly anyone will tell you about these costs. Even if he knows. But, I think, the cost of a titanium hull in the price of a boat is at least half. As for the expediency of using titanium, it depends on the tasks. For example, in the same project 941 "shark", with its difference in underwater / surface displacement more than twice, there was probably no sense in titanium at all. But this is from the point of view of just a designer, not related to boats.
                      20. 0
                        20 October 2019 15: 51
                        In 2011, the Kommersant newspaper announced that
                        the nuclear submarine "Severodvinsk" of project 885 "Ash" will cost the Ministry of Defense 47 billion rubles, and the submarines "Yuri Dolgoruky" and "Alexander Nevsky" of project 955 "Borey" - 23,2 billion rubles each (this is in those prices)
                        if we take today the additional price of titanium of 500 tr. per ton against steel and double it for the laboriousness of the process, then for the same "Ash" the difference will be very significant, but not the fact that excessive against the possibility of diving at least 60% deeper, IMHO
                        although I also read that all Ash trees except the leading one at the same prices are no more than 25 billion, then yes, there’s no need to make a game
                      21. -1
                        20 October 2019 19: 36
                        Quote: bar
                        multi-liter uncontrolled hippos with V8 and rear axle drive

                        An example of a similar machine 2019 model year
                      22. +1
                        20 October 2019 16: 18
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Drive on Infinity as much as you fly on Me-262?

                        if it flies, it’s very bad ...
                      23. -1
                        20 October 2019 20: 02
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        and 2 300 from Nissan we buy a dull engine with 211 hp

                        This is due to the characteristics of the Russian market, the Japanese do not seriously consider it
                        Either majors in cayenne, or Camry. There is practically no middle class
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Drive on Infinity as much as you fly on Me-262?

                        Somewhere talking about flights on the M262?
                      24. 0
                        20 October 2019 23: 15
                        Cons are not mine. Good evening
            2. +1
              19 October 2019 13: 07
              Quote: Santa Fe
              For the technology of the future - contact Lexus and Akura

              I recommend to ask what is Lexus and Akura.
        4. +4
          19 October 2019 13: 05
          Quote: Santa Fe
          The author has not yet departed from the widely advertised in 80-e, propaganda of the Japanese technological advantage

          You look at Japanese cars. and you don’t need to go anywhere

          This is not just a technique, it is the work of masters

          Oleg, did you swing a branch of Japanese aircraft in a Wartander?
          you can see it very clearly: at first there is a fierce love for battleships, then not love for me262, now love for Japan. one thing does not change: dislike for Russian. still try the line of Russian technology, there are good things there.
          1. 0
            19 October 2019 19: 18
            did you swing a branch of Japanese airplanes in a wartander?


            Before arranging a srach, I would like everyone to talk about their personal family car fleet

            even I, as I see, not very here people are guided in this subject of discussion
            1. bar
              -3
              19 October 2019 22: 01
              Before arranging a srach, I would like everyone to talk about their personal family car fleet

              Begin with yourself.
    3. +16
      19 October 2019 00: 28
      And the author was digging the Internet digging ... but did not dig up?


      The author could have a look on the Internet - the boat does not change the buoyancy back and forth.
      It keeps zero buoyancy precisely by filling the ballast tanks .. And the density of water DOES NOT CHANGE with depth. Pressure is growing. But liquids are incompressible. And trim (bow-feed up and down) is a simple pumping water pumps .. What nafig air flow? And maneuvering in depth at zero buoyancy is simple as a cork - with rudders and stroke. And it can always go up only due to the course, and only then blow the ballast.
      The problem is different - not to make a strong body of such a volume with the walls of the desired thickness - drown the pelvis from its own weight. A thin-walled crush. Therefore, the kerosene bubble clung to a deep-water sphere, which itself is heavier than water - it will not be crushed and it WILL NOT COMBAT.
      1. +7
        19 October 2019 10: 05
        Quote: dauria
        And the density of water DOES NOT CHANGE with depth

        Basically you are right. But the density of water still changes from various factors: temperature, salinity, etc. Then there would be no concept of "liquid soil", there would be no density jumps, there would be no graphs of sound propagation in water, etc. The submarine's buoyancy changes slightly with depth due to the compression of the submarine, the hull, etc. All this is reflected when driving, you can see it by the position of the rudders, and by the bubble, which shows the trim angle. Then a command is given to trim the submarine of the type "trim the submarine at a depth of .... meters, speed .... knots with trim ...... degrees to the bow" (options are possible). And so you start first with the equalizing, then back and forth with the trim. And if the water did not change the volume from temperature, pressure, etc., then they would not bother with leaving the kingstons in an open position under water. Water, although not significantly, changes its volume.
        And kerosene is so bad, it's an oil product, it decently changes its volume when the temperature changes. Therefore, there are tables for converting the density of petroleum products depending on temperature. Because of this, there is a constant struggle between suppliers and consumers at gas stations and oil depots. Wholesale deliveries are accounted for in mass units, and retail in volume units. And on this basis they are trying to play with postscripts, etc. But that's a different story. On "Trieste" most likely the volume change was somehow compensated. If the density of water "walks" around unity, then kerosene has 0,83-0,87, depending on temperature, batch, etc.
        1. +1
          20 October 2019 19: 36
          Quote: Andrey NM
          If the density of water "walks" around unity, then kerosene has 0,83-0,87, depending on temperature, batch, etc.

          If my memory serves me, the Trieste tank was filled with aviation gasoline.
          And water has the highest density at a temperature of +4 degrees, and then with a decrease in temperature it decreases.
          1. 0
            21 October 2019 06: 18
            Quote: Bad_gr
            If my memory serves me, the Trieste tank was filled with aviation gasoline.
            And water has the highest density at a temperature of +4 degrees, and then with a decrease in temperature it decreases.

            For water, salinity also affects.
            In gasoline, the density revolves around 0,75 and it fluctuations in temperature are also decent. A simplified density conversion table for diesel fuel and gasoline is one, and if needed more accurately, then according to GOST R 51069-97.
      2. +3
        19 October 2019 13: 08
        Quote: dauria
        And the density of water DOES NOT CHANGE with depth

        the author has long had problems with such sciences as physics and mathematics. this has been noticed more than once. Well, not knowledge of the materiel - Oleg’s chip.
  3. +5
    18 October 2019 15: 36
    Interestingly, I didn’t know such details. Thank.
  4. -3
    18 October 2019 15: 38
    But who else in the world still has the technology for manufacturing heavy-duty steel cases with a yield strength of 1100 MPa?

    And why should they be made of unique steel, if it can be made of titanium? what
    1. +17
      18 October 2019 16: 27
      Titanium is very expensive, in addition, when welding is actively saturated with hydrogen and nitrogen, which leads to cracking and loss of tightness of the seam. In this regard, a complex and expensive technology for welding in an inert gas environment with protection of both the front and back sides of the seam is used.
      1. +8
        18 October 2019 17: 05
        Titanium is very expensive

        Are you sure that special alloy steel is much cheaper?
      2. +12
        18 October 2019 17: 57
        Welding technology in a shielding gas environment is not expensive and the proven technology is both reverse blowing and root, with a mandatory hot passage to solve problems with hydrogen.
        1. +5
          18 October 2019 19: 27
          Quote: Alex 1970
          Welding technology in a shielding gas environment is not expensive and the proven technology is both reverse blowing and root, with a mandatory hot passage to solve problems with hydrogen.

          This is only for small parts ...
          For submarine cases, this is an extremely expensive operation.

          Threat. An internship took place in the late 80's at the Paton Institute ... well, that there would be no home words ...
          1. +5
            18 October 2019 20: 41
            So, in the courtyard of the 21st century, technology has gone far ahead from the eighties, we cook reactors at petrochemical plants, believe it’s size, as well as wall thickness
            1. +1
              18 October 2019 20: 42
              Threat. III level nax
          2. +1
            19 October 2019 09: 59
            This is only for small parts ...
            For submarine cases, this is an extremely expensive operation.

            You are absolutely right, colleague. The submarine casing has a variable cross-section along the length, and the reverse gas blowing must be directly under the arc and move with the welding speed. This is already a very serious automation (given the size of the product), and since PL is a piece product, then automation is inefficient. In addition, frames and a bunch of other parts of complex shape are welded inside the body. How to protect the root? Perhaps Vasya's auxiliary worker will blow gas from a cylinder through a hose? Well, in addition to all the charms, calculate the cost of the helium that you blow into the atmosphere.
            Threat. For colleague Alexei 1970 - IV level NAKS.
            1. 0
              19 October 2019 12: 38
              But is titanium not boiled for argon? At least in aviation like that.
        2. +3
          18 October 2019 19: 36
          For this, Helium in a mixture of 80 to 20 with Argon in which titanium alloys are boiled is a rather expensive gas from 9000 to 18000 rubles per 40 liter cylinder. And also a titanium additive from 11000 rubles per kilogram.
          1. 0
            18 October 2019 20: 43
            I completely agree here
      3. +5
        18 October 2019 18: 09
        There is such a thing as heat treatment of the weld, and in different ways, now basically an induction method, all this allows you to get away from cracking.
      4. -6
        18 October 2019 19: 29
        Titanium is very expensive

        This is not the case - the very existence of Titan is required, and there are big problems with this))))
      5. bar
        -6
        19 October 2019 10: 55
        Titanium also gives huge residual stresses in the welding zone. When for the first time they tried to weld a titanium ring for an engine from two halves at the Kuznetsov plant near Kuibyshev, this ring tore and pierced the roof in the workshop. Well that exploded at night, no one was hurt.
        1. 0
          19 October 2019 12: 57
          Now all these rings will be printed using SLM and DMLS technologies, rocket engines have already begun to print so that they would completely remove welds from the process technology.
    2. +2
      18 October 2019 18: 40
      And why should they be made of unique steel, if it can be made of titanium

      Steel is stronger
      1. -4
        18 October 2019 18: 41
        Steel is stronger

        Wow fool
        1. +5
          18 October 2019 19: 40
          Yes, the alloys have become stronger in titanium alloys with hardened high-frequency alloys, tensile strength up to 2000 MPa, in steels up to 3600 MPa.
          1. +1
            19 October 2019 10: 11
            Vadim, are you raving? First, where did you get these numbers? The second - HDTV hardening is done not for hardening, but for imparting surface hardness (where wear resistance is needed) while maintaining a viscous core, the calcination depth on HDTV is not more than 4 mm. I advise you not to discuss issues in which you are incompetent.
            1. 0
              19 October 2019 12: 17
              I advise you not to get into your own business - the hardness of the workpiece after its hardening of the HDTV grows by approximately 2-3 HRC, which also leads to an increase in strength: bending, shear, torsion and tearing.
              1. -2
                21 October 2019 10: 10
                I advise you not to go into the area in which you are a complete ignoramus and not to expose your ignorance. 2-3 HRC is within the measurement error. For the gifted, I repeat again: HDTV hardening is done to increase the SURFACE hardness while maintaining a viscous core and does not harden anything. You minus.
        2. 0
          18 October 2019 21: 33
          Quote: Amateur
          Steel is stronger

          Wow fool

          Sho, sho .. ????? I wonder what "wow!" Like "wai meh !!", or some other Jewish exclamation ...?
      2. +3
        19 October 2019 10: 04
        Quote: Santa Fe
        Steel is stronger

        You are mistaken, Oleg. Firstly, there are different ones, however, like titanium brands, but on the whole titanium is stronger and most importantly lighter, but only the USSR could afford the titanium submarines, where they did not spare money on defense.
        1. +5
          19 October 2019 10: 47
          To the author: Oleg, do not be offended by a small educational program, I will try to be brief. The yield point is one of the mechanical characteristics of a material along with the elastic limit, ultimate strength and elongation. It is determined by static stretching of the sample clamped in the jaws of the tensile testing machine. Keyword "stretching". The submarine, being at depth, experiences a static compressive load. The compressive strength is always higher than the tensile strength, i.e. if the case of the submarine is made of class 700 steel, this does not mean that it will collapse at a depth of 700 m. In addition, the case has an ovoid shape (lat. ovo - egg). Take a chicken egg and easily click on it with your finger ... the shell of brittle calcium is broken. Take the second egg in the palm of your hand, grabbing it evenly with your fingers and begin to squeeze slowly. What, not enough strength? Conclusion: the strength of the structure depends not only on the strength of the material, but also on the shape of the structure. Thus, your postulate on the dependence of the maximum immersion depth on the strength of the material is initially incorrect.
          Sincerely.
          1. bar
            -2
            19 October 2019 11: 28
            All this does not matter, since the depth of immersion of the boats is still limited by the purge of ballast lol
            1. +5
              19 October 2019 15: 13
              // All this does not matter, since the depth of immersion of the boats is still limited by the purge of ballast //

              No.
              Even if the boat will be at a depth where purging is no longer possible, the boat will always be able to rise to a safe depth using the engine.
              1. bar
                -3
                19 October 2019 16: 24
                That was the irony. I even put a smiley face
                1. 0
                  20 October 2019 10: 04
                  Sorryan)
                  Did not enter)
      3. bar
        0
        19 October 2019 10: 58
        Steel is stronger

        Yeah...
        What kind of steel? Stronger than which grade of titanium alloy? Or like this in general - "steel is stronger" and that's it?
        1. +1
          19 October 2019 13: 12
          Quote: bar
          Steel is stronger

          Yeah...
          What kind of steel? Stronger than which grade of titanium alloy? Or like this in general - "steel is stronger" and that's it?

          do not ask such questions. otherwise you will receive a response from the author and you will have a heart attack.
  5. +8
    18 October 2019 16: 16
    But who else in the world still has the technology for manufacturing heavy-duty steel cases with a yield strength of 1100 MPa?

    The Swedish concern SSAB has long and successfully rolled high-strength steel with a yield strength of 700, 900, 1100 MPa. Welding of these steels is not difficult. A little preheat, the right filler wire and that's it. Now in Russia, Severstal and MMK are mastering the production of high-strength steels as part of the import substitution program.
    1. +1
      18 October 2019 18: 02
      Even on the official ESAB website, both the characteristics of the additive and the steel are laid out. Recommendations are even written which steel to cook, structural, armor, heat-resistant, etc.
      1. -1
        18 October 2019 19: 42
        By argon arc welding only Steel 20 does not cook and anodized alloys.
        1. +1
          19 October 2019 10: 05
          Steel 20 is perfectly brewed without restrictions by any welding method.
          1. bar
            -4
            19 October 2019 11: 00
            laughing
            It’s useless to argue with Vadik. He is an undoubted specialist in the field of effective management laughing
            1. -3
              19 October 2019 12: 35
              And you are a specialist in the field of flooding.
              1. bar
                -5
                19 October 2019 12: 39
                I am a versatile specialist. I already wrote about your experience in mechanical engineering.
          2. -1
            19 October 2019 12: 34
            I meant without an additive - the seam bursts.
            1. bar
              0
              19 October 2019 12: 38
              Another would explain what you mean by the term "additive". Steel 20 is perfectly cooked with a wire semiautomatic device in a CO2 environment. I will not remind you of piece electrodes, in the same place in the coating you can find some kind of "additive".
              1. -1
                19 October 2019 12: 48
                I’m writing about welding in an argon medium — you are talking about semi-automatic and electric arc welding.
                1. bar
                  -1
                  19 October 2019 12: 50
                  And does it occur to someone to cook steel-20 in argon?
                  1. -1
                    19 October 2019 15: 09
                    It turns out that welding is better, for chernukha and the additive are sold in various diameters, only it will be necessary to thoroughly clean the welding edges to avoid the formation of a boiling bath - a welder who is familiar with this welding pipe welds.
  6. +11
    18 October 2019 16: 18
    "Kawasaki and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries without any loud promises and Poseidons"
    what does "poseidon" have to do with it?

    but what about the Japanese using torpedo weapons at great depths? have something to shoot then?

    What was the introductory passage about the VVD? depth adjustment is carried out mainly with the help of rudders, purging for ascent.

    and finally, two quotes from the author:
    "Why is it that none of the modern submarines is close enough to submerge - not even 1000 meters?" and
    "With a robust NS110 steel hull, Soryu's working depth is estimated to be at least 600 meters. The limit is 900."
    1. +14
      18 October 2019 18: 13
      that's what the "poseidon" has to do with it

      A sign of disrespect to those who rush promises to build a wunderwafer, not having the technology even to create a traditional naval weapon

      The Japanese do not scare the world with super-torpedoes, they do not need cartoons at the speech of the first persons of the state. Because even rare snippets of information about the strengthening of the Japanese Navy cause respect on the one hand, and on the other make you feel threatened

      “A strong falcon hides its claws” (best Japanese proverb)
      1. -14
        18 October 2019 19: 32
        The Japanese do not scare the world with super-torpedoes, they do not need cartoons at the speech of the first persons of the state.

        So everything presented by Putin is just cartoons))))
        And you have 100% of the opposition ....
      2. +4
        18 October 2019 19: 44
        "Without technology even to create traditional naval weapons" - What kind of weapon and what kind of technology - describe them?
      3. +3
        18 October 2019 20: 27
        Quote: Santa Fe
        A sign of disrespect to those who rush promises to build a wunderwafer, not having the technology even to create a traditional naval weapon

        what "traditional naval weapons" can we not create?

        strange in your words, the Komsomolets was created in some other country.

        do you have the right to throw yourself at the wunderwafele developers?

        phew, oleg! why is it taken that an uninhabited underwater vehicle is not capable of having a greater depth of immersion than pl?

        Quote: Santa Fe
        The Japanese do not scare the world with super-torpedoes, they do not need cartoons at the speech of the first persons of the state. Because even rare snippets of information about the strengthening of the Japanese Navy cause respect on the one hand, and on the other make you feel threatened


        Oleg, I understand Friday. but be careful.

        I will repeat the question
        "What about the Japanese with the use of torpedo weapons at great depths? Do they have something to shoot with?"

        Threat. so what was the passage about the air force?
      4. +2
        18 October 2019 21: 23
        Maybe there’s just no plot for cartoons?
      5. +8
        18 October 2019 21: 49
        Quote: Santa Fe

        “A strong falcon hides its claws” (best Japanese proverb)

        The Japanese, if this is really a Japanese proverb, apparently they have never seen birds of prey .... They apparently confused them with .... cats !!!
        Nowhere to raptors to hide claws, nowhere ...... fool fool
      6. +1
        18 October 2019 23: 19
        Quote: Santa Fe
        A sign of disrespect to those who rush promises to build a wunderwafer, not having the technology even to create a traditional naval weapon
        The Japanese do not scare the world with super-torpedoes, they do not need cartoons at the speech of the first persons of the state.

        It seems that you are talking about a hunter (or a fisherman) who, in the circle of tipsy friends, decided to brag.
        It never occurred to you that for a head of state to speak out from a high rostrum about a bunch of strategic developments, some of which are already being delivered to the troops, good reasons are needed?
        1. +5
          19 October 2019 07: 37
          What do you think is the misinformation of a potential adversary? Do you still remember President Reagan with the SDI program?
          1. 0
            19 October 2019 22: 22
            Quote: KERMET
            What do you think is the misinformation of a potential adversary? Do you still remember President Reagan with the SDI program?
            Well, what is not an option? !!!
      7. 0
        18 October 2019 23: 53
        Japan has no armed forces, like a losing country, they have self-defense forces. Advertising Japanese weapons may lead to different interpretations of this in other countries.
      8. bar
        -3
        19 October 2019 11: 11
        “A strong falcon hides its claws” (best Japanese proverb)

        And the wise Sun Tzu said that the best war is the one that did not start. Therefore, in cartoons, the GDP of wisdom is a hundred times greater than that of the Japanese "brothers in mind".
        1. -1
          20 October 2019 08: 09
          And knowledgeable people just laugh with these moronic cartoons as well as over the GDP itself
          1. bar
            -1
            20 October 2019 08: 14
            Why did these knowledgeable people not laugh at Reagan's "Star Wars", but out of fear raped the USSR economy?
    2. -4
      18 October 2019 19: 30
      Quote: DrVintorez

      but what about the Japanese using torpedo weapons at great depths? have something to shoot then?

      Have you seen the characteristics of the MK48?
      Xnumx meters however
      1. +1
        19 October 2019 13: 17
        Quote: SovAr238A
        Xnumx meters however

        and besides wikipedia you can still search somewhere? actually up to 1200 meters. MK5, if I remember correctly. attention to the question, but do the Japanese have them?
        MK4 900 meters could.
      2. 0
        19 October 2019 21: 17
        Quote: SovAr238A
        Have you seen the characteristics of the MK48?
        Xnumx meters however

        more
      3. 0
        19 October 2019 22: 25
        Quote: SovAr238A
        Quote: DrVintorez

        but what about the Japanese using torpedo weapons at great depths? have something to shoot then?

        Have you seen the characteristics of the MK48?
        Xnumx meters however

        litter ... And a product MK-48 ?! Is it Japanese? !!
  7. +21
    18 October 2019 16: 28
    Working depth - 400 m, ultimate - 550? These are normal diving depths. A combat submarine is not designed for record dives. She still needs to detect surface targets, attack them, and for our submarines there is still a gift - the deeper you dive, the better you hear the SOSUS system. Closer to the surface, it is easier to disguise themselves as a storm, ice hummocking, rainfall, fish screams. If a torpedo can still be fired from a great depth, then a cruise or ballistic missile alas ...
    Titanium is very expensive when building ships. It is no coincidence that in the USSR, having built several titanium submarines of project 945 "Barracuda", they switched to the construction of cheaper 971 "Bars". There was even a not unfounded rumor that the decoding "Bars" means "Steel Barracuda".
    1. 0
      18 October 2019 17: 02
      Well noticed about the depth!
    2. +4
      18 October 2019 22: 43
      Mastering the technology of welding and processing of titanium alloys during the construction of ships of projects 945 and 945A has led to the fact that the cost of the hulls of these ships is close to the cost of a stainless steel hull. The service life of a titanium hull is about 100 years. . And there is another serious advantage: the magnetic field of titanium ships is much lower, respectively, stealth is higher. Barracudas and Barca are very different in size and in design and weapons
      1. +1
        20 October 2019 12: 31
        the cost of titanium according to GOST starts from 700-800 rubles per kg (in fact)
        high-quality stainless steels (easily welded) from 300 rubles per kg (in fact)
    3. 0
      19 October 2019 21: 17
      Quote: mik193
      Titanium - it is very expensive when building ships.

      I agree with everything except the "price of titanium" - because there was an opportunity to clarify the real prices - they are slightly higher than special "underwater" steels, and less use - due to technological difficulties and limited opportunities of the industry for mass work with it

      for promising submarines I consider the use of titanium alloys to be very promising and justified
      1. 0
        20 October 2019 08: 54
        Quote: Fizik M
        for prospective submarines I consider the application

        The problem is that even the USSR did not pull them, could not economically ......
  8. -1
    18 October 2019 16: 40
    Article plus good interesting.
  9. -3
    18 October 2019 16: 50
    For greater immersion depths, the most interesting Italian technology is the manufacturing of the submarine hull from a coiled pipeline of toroidal section, where fuel for VNEU is pumped under high pressure .... Yes
    1. 0
      18 October 2019 18: 06
      Was this muddied up, that is, they wound another pipe on one toroid (body)?
      1. -1
        19 October 2019 06: 34
        How do you imagine the body in the form of a toroid?
        1. The comment was deleted.
      2. -2
        19 October 2019 07: 06
        Well, what kind of people went, they can’t (or don’t want) even, in a search engine, type a query ...
        Here is a link, read about the technology of manufacturing a submarine case from a toroidal cross-section pipe:
        https://www.top-technologies.ru/ru/article/view?id=34621
  10. +7
    18 October 2019 17: 06
    Author, why do submarines dive so deep? The speed of sound increases with depth, the homogeneity of the environment, too, and with them the visibility of the boat. There are depth ranges in which the fact of the presence of a boat is detected over thousands of kilometers. Why should they dive there?
    1. +3
      18 October 2019 18: 50
      Ask this question to the creators of Komsomolets
      1. +1
        18 October 2019 19: 16
        The military prosecutor's office had to do this, immediately after the approval of the TTZ. Now it's too late.
        In addition, the USSR had a somewhat strange attitude to military projects. For example, in the tactical manual of submarines, the form of the sonar field of the submarine was incorrectly indicated. It would seem - how can this be?

        But it was. The miraculous depths of Komsomolets come from there.
        1. +1
          18 October 2019 20: 40
          And the state award wanted, and so on. signed ..... professionals ....
        2. +1
          19 October 2019 14: 59
          There, it seemed like the trick was that NATO did not have anti-submarine weapons for such a depth.
          1. 0
            19 October 2019 17: 35
            There were nuclear depth charges. Plus, the Mk.50 had the energy that made it possible to create a deep torpedo on its base - and by the way, when the Poseidon smelled, the Americans did just that. They created an anti-torpedo capable of reaching a high-speed target at a kilometer of depth.

            So the calculation was disastrous initially. If you were able to create a spoon acting on 1000 meters, then the enemy will figure out a torpedo for such a depth.
        3. 0
          19 October 2019 21: 13
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          The military prosecutor's office had to do this, immediately after the approval of the TTZ. Now it's too late.
          In addition, the USSR had a somewhat strange attitude to military projects.

          no otherwise
          both the USA and the USSR had a deep-sea program, and the USA was far ahead (until the early 70s), but after Vietnam they "stabbed" it
          there was some sense in "Fin", and moreover, it made sense to build several more according to this project, but a large series did not make sense
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          For example, in the tactical manual of submarines, the form of the sonar field of the submarine was incorrectly indicated. It would seem - how can this be?

          there is no
          what you are talking about is understandable, and this is not in the hands-on, but this is really LEARNED (moreover, in a massive and systematic way)
          1. 0
            20 October 2019 13: 58
            what you are talking about is understandable, and this is not in the hands-on, but this is really LEARNED (moreover, in a massive and systematic way)


            Well, Dudko can be remembered here - we thought it was round, but it was not round. Apparently, it was already taught in your years. But you didn’t serve in the days of the USSR.
    2. -5
      18 October 2019 19: 49
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      Author, why do submarines dive so deep? The speed of sound increases with depth, the homogeneity of the environment, too, and with them the visibility of the boat. There are depth ranges in which the fact of the presence of a boat is detected over thousands of kilometers. Why should they dive there?

      Not Oleg, but ..
      There is an understanding of the ratio "steel grade" -> "immersion depth" ...

      Is there a dependence "steel grade" -> "protection against the effects of hydrodynamic shock"?
      Well, for example, what will be the effect of contactless detonation of the Mk54 warhead in 6 hulls from one boat with steel 80 compared to a boat with steel 110 ...
      1. 0
        18 October 2019 19: 51
        This is another question - not about the depth.
        1. 0
          18 October 2019 20: 10
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          This is another question - not about the depth.

          but the essence is the same ...
          when 30 years ago I operated on the meanings of steel grades. reference books are already necessary now ... Forgot ...
          But there is a direct dependence in this case!

          And about the depth - you can still pull the owl on the globe.
          Walking at a depth of 300 meters, Lodna found a characteristic sound sign - a 324 mm caliber PLT falling into water at a distance of 20 cable.
          Knowing. that it is in the operational control zone of the "Chuvash" Navy - they know that they are armed with only Mk46m1 torpedoes with an immersion depth of 450 meters ...
          And she has 7-8 minutes until a torpedo on its figure-eight circulation of the active mode enters the attack course.
          And either she goes to her working, but beyond the torpedo's depth - escaping herself.
          Either Netiho dies with the whole crew ...
          The helicopter then hangs and continues target designation ...
          1. +2
            18 October 2019 20: 13
            7-8 minutes on a pre-discovered boat is optimistic. Very serious.
          2. +1
            19 October 2019 21: 10
            Quote: SovAr238A
            Knowing. that it is in the operational control zone of the "Chuvash" Navy - they know that they are armed with only Mk46m1 torpedoes with an immersion depth of 450 meters ...

            actually already Mk46mod5 in 80x had MUCH more - and just corresponded to the limit of our submarines
            Quote: SovAr238A
            And she has 7-8 minutes until a torpedo on its figure-eight circulation of the active mode enters the attack course.

            faster, because there will not be any of your "20kab" - for the EXACT use of weapons on the plane there is a PPS
            1. -8
              19 October 2019 21: 23
              Quote: Fizik M
              Quote: SovAr238A
              Knowing. that it is in the operational control zone of the "Chuvash" Navy - they know that they are armed with only Mk46m1 torpedoes with an immersion depth of 450 meters ...

              actually already Mk46mod5 in 80x had MUCH more - and just corresponded to the limit of our submarines
              Quote: SovAr238A
              And she has 7-8 minutes until a torpedo on its figure-eight circulation of the active mode enters the attack course.

              faster, because there will not be any of your "20kab" - for the EXACT use of weapons on the plane there is a PPS


              Thank God Maxim is back.
              Maxim. I'm not at all naval.
              I just read a lot of things from literature before
              And I accept your corrections normally.
              Very glad! Fair!

              But the question.
              That torpedo fell into the water.
              When does her GOS turn on?
              Should the same indignation from the fall - "calm down" ???
              Then, from what course the torpedoes entered the water, accordingly the course of the boat at that moment could be exactly the opposite - accordingly - the circulation of the torpedo is necessary, KMK ...
              Here are the time costs ...
              1. 0
                19 October 2019 21: 49
                Quote: SovAr238A
                When does her GOS turn on?
                Should the same indignation from the fall - "calm down" ???
                Then, from what course the torpedoes entered the water, accordingly the course of the boat at that moment could be exactly the opposite - accordingly - the circulation of the torpedo is necessary, KMK ...
                Here are the time costs ...

                CCH almost immediately, the question is different - the circulation is needed to overlap the word in depth, but if the hydrology is good, then the capture time is minimal - one or two circulations with a diameter less than 200m, and the PPS (search and aiming system) puts a torpedo so that the target would be capture zone
    3. 0
      19 October 2019 00: 01
      why do submarines dive so deep?

      Submariners said that the water in the Atlantic was so clear that the submarine could be seen from the plane. I xs, is this true, but from all other types of detection it could pass. Plus, as far as I know, nothing will get it there, like it was written.
  11. +6
    18 October 2019 17: 18
    The author did not mention such a factor as the scale effect. Making a small bathyscaphe deep-sea is much easier than a huge submarine. With equal depths of immersion, the boat will be incomparably harder. Secondly, the boat, by definition, has a large number of all kinds of hatches, which dramatically reduces its reliability at depth. Third - is it possible to use submarines at great depths? Moreover, as for SSBNs, then definitely not.
    “The most technologically advanced” does not mean simple. Quite the opposite - manufacturability, it is just simplicity in production. More technologically advanced than a nail, it’s difficult to come up with a product, except perhaps a toothpick.
    ,
    1. bar
      -2
      19 October 2019 11: 17
      The author did not mention such a factor as the scale effect.

      To the author, as an amateur in technology, it is excusable laughing
  12. +3
    18 October 2019 17: 43
    In the description of the submarines there is an abbreviation NS (Naval Steel - naval steel), combined with the digital indices 80 or 110. In the metric number system "80" when designating the grade of steel, probably, means a yield strength of 800 MPa. The stronger NS110 steel has a yield strength of 1100 MPa.
    very reliable information, I can also compose anything like that, made the assumption that the figure 80 in the name of the steel grade means a yield strength of 800 MPa, and if that is not at all?
    1. 0
      18 October 2019 18: 36
      made the assumption that the number 80 in the name of the steel grade means the yield strength of 800 MPa, and if this is not at all?

      The author did not quite successfully express an idea. Not “most likely”, but “should be” with a probability of about 100%

      Yapi copy American designations, where an index of two / three digits is the yield strength, only yapes use the metric system
      80 is 80 kg per mm2 or 800 MPa
      1. +1
        18 October 2019 19: 53
        The yield strength of Steel NS80 is 812 MPa.
        1. 0
          18 October 2019 20: 13
          share a link
  13. -4
    18 October 2019 17: 46
    I did not understand from the words of the author how the pl differs from the bathyscaphe. The bathyscaphe discharges the ballast, and the plow blows ballast tanks. Well, what's the difference? Or is the bathyscaphe not blowing the tank?
    1. +4
      18 October 2019 18: 03
      The difference is that the boat can again take ballast (sea water into tanks). For the next dive, the bathyscaphe Trieste needed to find somewhere 9 tons of steel shot
      1. -6
        18 October 2019 19: 41
        The difference is that the boat can again take ballast (sea water into tanks).

        The question is - and there is no other solution to come up, except how to blow off the ballast?
        Well, there, place the screw under the bottom of the submarine (force directed upwards), while pumping water from the ballast tanks. And use this pumped-out water on a jet engine?
      2. -8
        18 October 2019 19: 50
        Quote: Santa Fe
        The difference is that the boat can again take ballast (sea water into tanks). For the next dive, the bathyscaphe Trieste needed to find somewhere 9 tons of steel shot

        With Losharik everything is the same ...
      3. +16
        18 October 2019 21: 16
        Unlike bathyscaphes, submarines are required to repeatedly change the depth of underwater during one dive. In other words, the submarine has the ability to repeatedly change the buoyancy margin. This is achieved by filling outboard ballast tanks, which are flushed with air when floating.

        Don't mislead the people. Submarines change their depth by propelling and rudders, like an airplane in flight, not by changing the buoyancy. Moreover, at certain depths, the VVD loses its effectiveness. To "adjust" buoyancy and trim, there are a number of tanks, such as equalizing and trim. It is possible to change the depth due to equalizing, but this method is used in rare cases, such as icing or in similar cases. All boats are hung and trimmed to be slightly lightweight. If the boat loses speed in an accident, the boat will slowly ascend. On the move, the depth is held by the rudders. Setting at depth without a stroke is performed using a special system of stabilizing tanks and pumps, with the help of which the buoyancy at the setting depth is regulated. Ballast tanks on double-hull submarines in a submerged position are generally always with open kingstones, and often submarines and kingstones do not have, otherwise the CGB will tear or crush with a change in depth. In VVD cylinders, the pressure is 400 kgf / cm2.
        1. +1
          18 October 2019 22: 45
          Yes. The VVD-400 system appeared already on the second-generation submarine.
        2. 0
          18 October 2019 23: 52
          They talked about some of our submarines, which could carry a concrete slab underneath. Having stepped into the area of ​​duty, I lowered this plate to the ground, while I myself hung on the ropes. And in such a suspended state could be for months.
          I can not vouch for the accuracy of the information.
  14. +4
    18 October 2019 18: 01
    I'm certainly not an expert BUT ..... as far as I know, when immersed, the depth is regulated by horizontal rudders NOT?
    1. +3
      18 October 2019 18: 44
      Yes! But when at a circuit AZ drops. Then, without a move, the boat begins to roll so merrily towards Uncle Neptune. And at depths of 350-400, the choice is easy to purge and show up, or try to rummage around with a zip. As a rule, they managed to repair.
      1. +3
        18 October 2019 20: 58
        Yes, quit. Well, the az fell. Well, they were picked up by GEDs, the benefit of the instruction on the use of means of movement allows this to be done even with non-divided MZS.
        Sulking at 300 meters is very unjustified. Unless, if the bcc is jammed for immersion, then of course the bubble in the nose and both turbines are full back.
      2. +4
        18 October 2019 21: 26
        Quote: dgonni
        and! But when at a circuit AZ drops. Then, without a move, the boat begins to roll so merrily towards Uncle Neptune.

        This happens if the watch engineer-mechanic does not differentiate the boat at a depth of travel. Control over the position of the steering wheels, trim, etc. ongoing.
  15. +1
    18 October 2019 18: 14
    Thank! Informative. Especially in the field of housing materials and immersion principles. I read it with interest.
  16. -1
    18 October 2019 18: 30
    As the old proverb says: “No matter what you can do well, there is always an Asian who does it better”

    Stereotypes))

    “Pearl Harbor was not an attack; it was an accident.” Japanese pilots tried to land

    - How do you know that the Chinese are moving to the area?
    - Mexicans began to buy car insurance

    - How do you know that your house was robbed by a Korean?
    - All programs have been updated on the computer, children have completed math assignments, the culprit himself cannot spend an hour out of the parking lot at home laughing
    1. +1
      19 October 2019 13: 24
      Oleg, what happened to your twins / cartoons? got sick? where is sivt_16?
  17. +2
    18 October 2019 18: 47
    The article is really interesting, but ... The gear pump will not solve the problem of pumping water from tanks?
    1. +6
      18 October 2019 19: 00
      Do you have an idea of ​​the volume of water and pressure as well as the necessary speeds of this action?
      P.S. for a general understanding to Pokrovsky with his 72 meters. Although a chemist. Well, or on Belov’s bigler read with his purge the riser at home :).
      1. +1
        18 October 2019 19: 38
        Well, about the pressures in the know, that's why I am talking about the gear pump, it can create high pressures, but the volume ... She doesn’t shoot at this depth, which means there’s nowhere to hurry. Ten cubes were pumped out, already a plus to buoyancy.
        1. -6
          18 October 2019 19: 49
          Ten cubes pumped out, already a plus to buoyancy

          This water can be used for a jet engine ....
          1. +4
            18 October 2019 23: 09
            Water cannon not engine / b], and [b] mover.
        2. 0
          18 October 2019 20: 03
          For those on land! There are 5000 tons of water that you need to throw overboard in a couple of minutes to float!
          And now the question is how to do ento if there is no energy !? Or do you think that the boat is a stationary object?
          Find the old steering from any boat. He will tell you about the currents and failures in terms of salinity, even with completely live engines and systems.
          1. +1
            19 October 2019 15: 03
            Quote: dgonni
            And now the question is how to do ento if there is no energy !?
            To invent any emergency powder propellant?
            1. +1
              19 October 2019 18: 24
              The gas generator for emergency blowing of the central cylinder block has long been invented and used at least at Komsomolets.
    2. +3
      18 October 2019 20: 54
      ok, pumped out with a gear pump. Why did you download it? Nothing? So then the ballast tanks will have to be made as thick as a solid case ... Because the water was pumped out, and either a vacuum or 1 atmosphere remained in the tank from the compartment, and outside 40 kg per cm of pressure. And with VVD everything is simple, blew into the tank, displaced excess water, caught neutral buoyancy, in the tank 40, behind the tank 40. And in general, air is reliable, because the potential "energy" in the form of pressure has already been stored and stored, and the pump produces this energy in the form of pressure only directly in operation. Refuse is shorter.
      1. 0
        18 October 2019 22: 03
        I understand it all. By the way, to fill the tanks (if they are in a solid case) there is enough air of 1 atm. In a light case, of course, he doubts them. The task was simply voiced: to ensure multiple ascent of the boat from a depth of about 3 km. It is not written that it should pop up quickly (well, it seemed to me so). In my opinion, a gear pump (plural) can solve this problem. It is just up to 300 atm. pressure creates, i.e. will be able to push the water out. The nuclear power plant will provide power. Diesel, of course, you can't cope with this ... By the way, if you develop a chemical nonsense, in the reaction "gaining volume" in order to squeeze water out of the tanks, and then, under the action of some third reagent, again turning into a liquid, is heavier than water ...
    3. +1
      18 October 2019 21: 34
      Quote: Arthur 85
      Will the gear pump not solve the problem of pumping water from tanks?

      Centrifugal pumps are used, which, depending on the immersion depth, operate either in parallel or in series.
      By the way, at high pressures even gear pumps will not solve the problem. Here only piston pumps are suitable. Or multistage screw pumps are used.
      1. +1
        19 October 2019 10: 51
        centrifugal pumps are used for emergency drainage of the compartments pl, they can pump water from the tanks of auxiliary ballast but not the main ballast
        1. +1
          19 October 2019 13: 21
          Quote: kote119
          centrifugal pumps are used for emergency drainage of the compartments pl, they can pump water from the tanks of auxiliary ballast but not the main ballast

          Have you seen the submarine drainage pumps for the Central City Hospital? I didn’t see something. It is impossible to pump the whole sea. And what kind of pump does the CS swing? But there, first, the pressure is equalized with the outboard.
  18. +1
    18 October 2019 19: 13
    Steel grade 1.3964 in Germany was registered as a standard from the series of boats "Type 206".
  19. +3
    18 October 2019 19: 18
    Depth, speed, then ce. But the data on how many days a year the boat spends at sea, and not at the pier / in repair, it would be interesting to see. And it will immediately become clear that one of them is a military weapon, and that a disabled person on crutches, counting on heroism and luck.
  20. 0
    18 October 2019 19: 29
    "However, experts are not deterred by the language barrier or the paranoid secrecy inherent in the world's second-strongest navy." Where is the second navy in the world ????
    1. 0
      18 October 2019 20: 12
      The shock capabilities of the Japanese Navy are extremely low - of the shock, only Harpoon anti-ship missiles and their own development are new anti-ship missiles with a range of 400 kilometers.
    2. +1
      19 October 2019 00: 46
      And who is the minuser ?! What are the second Navy in the world? Well, even simple, Americans and Sinas, no way!
  21. +1
    18 October 2019 20: 49
    I didn’t read how much I know the submarines go down exactly to the depth that you need, it’s all so complicated that it’s even ridiculous to discuss it here, there are depths optimal for submarines in terms of noise and other parameters, it is not necessary that the deeper the less noise.
  22. -1
    18 October 2019 21: 05
    Quote: Santa Fe
    scraps of information about strengthening the Japanese Navy ... makes you feel threatened

    Where - at your place in Santa Fe, NM? laughing

    We do not give a damn about the trifle pot-bellied Japan with its toy Navy, Air Force and other rubbish, turned into nothing by a single explosion of the 100-Mtn special warhead.

    If you do not take into account the attempts to pour mud on our new types of weapons (which you do not have in the USA and will never have), then we can limit ourselves to two remarks to your opus:
    - the pressure of compressed air on board the nuclear submarine for a long time has nothing to do with the depth of immersion, since emergency pressure accumulators are used for emergency ascent, and rudders and thrusters are standard means of regulating depth;
    - titanium alloys are ahead of steel alloys not in absolute value of yield strength, but in specific - per unit weight.

    The US submarine fleet will always be in the ass in terms of immersion depth, not because of the inability to weld titanium with American shipyards, but because of the elementary lack of accessible deposits of this strategic metal, which Russia supplies to the West in volumes sufficient only for the local aerospace industry bully
    1. +1
      18 October 2019 21: 22
      Why should they dive deep? Who to be afraid of? Russia stupidly nothing to pinch them. From the word at all. You can tell how many American submarines are simultaneously in the sea-haul and how many Russian?
      1. -2
        18 October 2019 21: 26
        And why do we have to pinch them - for sports interest? We will infringe on their country (in a local nuclear conflict - their foreign bases) so that it doesn’t seem enough.
        1. +1
          18 October 2019 21: 30
          So, we have come to an agreement, for America it is better to have more reliable boats than those who can dive deeply but complex and small. Your opinion that they are in the priest, alas, they do not take into account. They won the race with the USSR, so their decisions were correct - a minimum of the zoo, a maximum of efficiency.
          1. -6
            18 October 2019 21: 54
            Soon, Russia will have combat airbags similar to the Harpsichord 2 or Cephalopod torpedo armament for them now already have the NK Package.
            1. +2
              18 October 2019 23: 58
              This news from the future is always beautiful.
              1. -3
                19 October 2019 12: 37
                At least tomorrow and yes and in the most distant future no one will fight with Russia.
            2. 0
              19 October 2019 21: 06
              Quote: Vadim237
              Soon, Russia will have combat airbags similar to the Harpsichord 2 or Cephalopod torpedo armament for them now already have the NK Package.

              Cephallopod I will not comment wink but amuse the readers about "Package" on "Harpsichord2" lol
              1. 0
                19 October 2019 21: 37
                "I will not comment on the cephallopods" - Yes, and you will not be able to, since nothing is known about it except that it is being created, and I wrote like the apparatus of the Harpsichord 2, and not on it.
                1. 0
                  19 October 2019 21: 54
                  Quote: Vadim237
                  "I will not comment on cephallopods" - Yes, and you cannot, since nothing is known about him

                  what is known is NOT YOUR business
                  I note that attentive readers of procurement gov also read a lot of interesting things;)
                  Quote: Vadim237
                  I wrote on the likeness of the apparatus of the Harpsichord 2, and not on it.

                  understandable ... twirled with a "sirloin" ...
          2. -1
            18 October 2019 22: 53
            You are absolutely right - I warmly support your opinion that US Navy should do its utmost to increase the number of traditional watercraft, starting with submarines and ending with AB (so that we have something to drown in the event of a local nuclear conflict).

            But in this matter, unfortunately, there is one hitch - deputy. Pentagon Minister Michael Griffin does not think so (most likely, he shares my opinion about a big, big priest) laughing
          3. +2
            18 October 2019 23: 16
            In which race they won the USSR. If by the number of submarines, then you are mistaken. Look how many nuclear submarines shot the USSR, and how many the USA.
            1. +6
              18 October 2019 23: 57
              Build it is great. And you take an interest in how much on average Soviet boats went during their life and how many American boats went and go. Very unpleasant statistics.
              1. 0
                19 October 2019 15: 14
                Most of our boats - 190 pieces were sent for scrap in the 90s and early 2000s. some of them have not sailed for 10 years.
          4. bar
            -6
            19 October 2019 10: 43
            In the race with the USSR they won

            In the race with the USSR (and not only with the USSR) they won back in 1945, when the whole world was in ruins, and America was in chocolate. With such a huge difference in the economies, it was difficult to compete with them, even though we tried our best. But on this and overcame ...
        2. +2
          19 October 2019 13: 26
          Quote: Operator
          We will infringe their country

          and go to heaven?
          1. +2
            19 October 2019 13: 49
            No need to engage in demagogy - why should nuclear Russia destroy a non-nuclear Japanese fleet when it is possible to destroy a non-nuclear Japan?

            It is better to study the Military Doctrine of the Russian Federation - who and in what order will go to heaven and hell in the event of a global nuclear conflict.

            Well, at your leisure, study the question of how the global nuclear conflict differs from the local one - you will be pleasantly (in the case of Russian citizenship) or unpleasant (otherwise) surprised.
            1. +1
              19 October 2019 16: 12
              Quote: Operator
              No need to engage in demagogy - why should nuclear Russia destroy a non-nuclear Japanese fleet when it is possible to destroy a non-nuclear Japan?

              It is better to study the Military Doctrine of the Russian Federation - who and in what order will go to heaven and hell in the event of a global nuclear conflict.

              Well, at your leisure, study the question of how the global nuclear conflict differs from the local one - you will be pleasantly (in the case of Russian citizenship) or unpleasant (otherwise) surprised.

              but it is possible somehow without these pretentious instructions? You are here to "pinch" gathered, and immediately bring the doctrine. do you have an imbalance?

              let's briefly tell us what in your opinion is so important in the difference between global and local conflicts with the use of nuclear weapons.

              Quote: Operator


              We do not give a damn about the trifle pot-bellied Japan with its toy Navy, Air Force and other rubbish, turned into nothing by a single explosion of the 100-Mtn special warhead.

              Do you know about the amount of manpower and means of Japan and Pacific Fleet? just for fun?
              or do you have one solution to all problems - thermonuclear?

              PS. and less pathos, gentlemen, less pathos.
              1. 0
                19 October 2019 20: 25
                Something our fellow citizens had the impression of Japan as a country with a frail Self-Defense Forces, and of the Russian Federation as a powerful naval power which the USSR was. Alas, not so long ago. Japan has increased its Navy qualitatively and quantitatively, while the Pacific Fleet, on the contrary, has decreased significantly. I am now afraid that the correlation of forces in the Far East is not better than it was in 1904 ...
                1. 0
                  20 October 2019 19: 18
                  Not better? Are you kidding so? Yes, it has long been WORSE.
    2. -6
      19 October 2019 09: 26
      Quote: Operator

      The US submarine fleet will always be in the ass in terms of immersion depth, not because of the inability to weld titanium with American shipyards, but because of the elementary lack of accessible deposits of this strategic metal, which Russia supplies to the West in volumes sufficient only for the local aerospace industry bully

      Russia is not the only and not the most important supplier of titanium. If suddenly the alternative operator did not know this.
      1. +1
        19 October 2019 13: 36
        Can you translate the Russian word "deposit" into Hebrew? laughing
        https://geolog.whotrades.com/blog/43902748842
        1. -8
          19 October 2019 13: 52
          Quote: Operator
          Can you translate the Russian word "deposit" into Hebrew? laughing
          https://geolog.whotrades.com/blog/43902748842


          Quotes from our articles.

          Quote 1.
          "The titanium production market is quite closed. As a rule, countries producing a large amount of metal themselves are its consumers.

          In Russia, the largest and perhaps the only company engaged in the production of titanium is VSMPO-Avisma. She is considered the largest producer of metal, but this is not entirely true. The company produces a fifth of titanium, but its global consumption looks different: about 5% is spent on products and alloys, and 95% on dioxide.

          So, titanium production in the world by country:

          The leading manufacturing country is China. The country has the maximum reserves of titanium ores. Of the 18 reputed titanium sponge factories, 9 are located in China.
          The second place is occupied by Japan. It is interesting that in the country only 2 – 3% of metal is spent on the aerospace sector, and the rest is used in the chemical industry.
          The third place in the world in the production of titanium is held by Russia and its many factories. Then follows Kazakhstan.
          The USA is the next producer country in the list, consumes titanium in the traditional way: 60–75% of titanium is used by the aerospace industry.
          "
          http://stroyres.net/metallicheskie/vidyi/tsvetnyie/titan/proizvodstvo-osobennosti-protsessa.html

          Quote 2
          "The titanium ore deposits available in the republic are the largest in Russia, and occupy a high place in the world classification. According to Vlasenko, the unique Yaregskoye oil and titanium deposit, which is unique in its reserves, is capable of providing raw materials for both the high-tech production of pigment titanium dioxide and finely dispersed silicon dioxide and the long-term production capacity of titanium metal.

          The relevance of involvement in the industrial development of titanium reserves of the Yarega deposit is determined, according to Vlasenko, by several factors. Russia, occupying the second place in the world in terms of reserves of titanium raw materials, does not industrially develop any of its own deposits and does not have domestic industrial production of pigment titanium dioxide. Therefore, it depends entirely on imports of titanium concentrates and titanium dioxide. Meanwhile, according to the Ministry of Industry and Trade of Russia, the need for titanium raw materials is confirmed in the amount of about 600 thousand tons per year, based on a concentrate containing 2 percent titanium dioxide (TiO50). Titanium dioxide is needed, in particular, in the manufacture of electrodes
          ."
          https://rg.ru/2013/09/19/reg-szfo/yarega.html

          and so, for understanding ... There’s nothing good except for bonnets ...
          https://mining-media.ru/ru/article/ekonomic/559-perspektivy-osvoeniya-titanovogo-syrya-v-rossii
          1. 0
            19 October 2019 14: 01
            Normal people generally apologize for their "alternative" statements at first.

            I have already provided a link to an adequate description of the situation with titanium ore in Russia, which says that we have not even begun to develop the main deposits, which we have more than the rest of the world combined.

            And if we take into account that in the second and third places in the world in terms of titanium reserves are China (our actual ally) and Australia (which is in complete economic and political dependence on China), then in the titanium field our opponents have long been shining ... (you will find the term on my link) laughing
            1. +3
              19 October 2019 14: 08
              Quote: Operator
              I have already provided a link to an adequate description of the situation with titanium ore in Russia, which says that we have not even begun to develop the main deposits, which we have more than the rest of the world combined.

              and?
              Quote: Operator
              Rђ RμSЃR "Ryo RμS Rμ SѓS ‰ ‡ RμSЃS,SЊ C ‡ S,Rѕ RЅR ° RІS,RѕSЂRѕRј Ryo S,SЂRμS,SЊRμRј RјRμSЃS,R ° C ... PI RјRoSЂRμ RїRѕ P · P RїR ° ° ° SЃR Rј S,RoS ° Р ° РЅР ° РЅР ° С ... одятся КитР° Р№ (РЅР ° С € С „Р ° Р‚С‚РёС З РµСЃРєРёР№ СЃРѕСЋР · РЅРёРє) Рё РђРІСЃСёСЂР ° РЅ РѕРґСЏС ‰ Р ° СЏСЃСЏ РІ РІРѕР »РЅРѕР№ СЌРєРѕРЅРѕРјРёС ‡ еской Рё РІРѕР» РёС‚РёС З РµСЃРєРѕРРР РРЏР Р Р Р РЃРЃРЃРЃРЃРЃРЃРЃРЃРЃРЃРЃРЃРЃ ‚Ryo S‚RёS‚Р ° РЅР ° РЅР ° С € РёРј противникР° Рј РґР ° РІРЅРѕ СЃРІРµС‚РёС Р РІРѕР» РЅР ° СЏ … (теСРРРРРРРРРРРРРРРРРРРР µС‚Рµ РїРѕ моей СЃСЃС ‹Р»

              RЅSѓ RґR ° F "P ° RґRЅRѕ R'RѕRі SЃ P'P ° RјRo RїRѕ RїRѕRІRѕRґSѓ SЃRѕSЋR · RЅRoRєR ° RљRoS,R ° SЏ Ryo RђRІSЃS,SЂR ° F" RoRo - RєRѕS,RѕSЂR ° SЏ SЃ RєR ° F RєRѕRіRѕ S,Rѕ »РµС € его РІР ° СЃСЃР ° Р» КитР° СЏ.
              РќРѕ РІ Р'икипедию можно ведь Р · Р ° РіР »СЏРЅСѓС‚СЊ?
              RљSЂSѓRїRЅS <Rμ RєRѕSЂRμRЅRЅS <Rμ RјRμSЃS,RѕSЂRѕR¶RґRμRЅRoSЏ S,RoS,R ° RЅR ° RЅR ° C ... RѕRґSЏS,SЃSЏ RЅR ° S,RμSЂSЂRoS,RѕSЂRoRo R®RђR P RѕSЃSЃRoRo, RЈRєSЂR ° RoRЅS <RљR ° RЅR ° RґS ‹, РЎРёРђ, КитР° СЏ, Норвегии, РЁРІРµС † РёРё, Р • гиптР°, АвстрР° Р» стР° РЅР °; SЂRѕSЃSЃS <RїRЅS <Rμ RјRμSЃS,RѕSЂRѕR¶RґRμRЅRoSЏ RoRјRμSЋS,SЃSЏ PI R'SЂR ° F · Röhr "RoRo, P RЅRґRoRo, RЎRORђ, -P ° RЎSЊRμSЂSЂR> RμRѕRЅRμ, RђRІSЃS,SЂR ° F" RoRo [6] [3]. P '° SЃS,SЂR RЅR ° C ... RЎRќR "RІRμRґSѓS ‰ RμRμ RјRμSЃS,Rѕ RїRѕ SЂR ° F · ° RІRμRґR RЅRЅS <Rј P · P ° RїR SЃR ° ° ° Rј S,RoS,R RЅRѕRІS <C ... SЂSѓRґ P · R ° РЅРёРјР ° РµС ‚Р Р¤ (58,5%) Рё РЈРєСЂР ° РёРЅР ° (40,2%)[7]. РљСЂСѓРїРЅРµР№С € ее месторождеение РІ Р РѕСЃСЃРёРё - Ярегское.

              РєР ° Рє то РІС ‹РЈРєСЂР ° РёРЅЅѓ СЃ Р» РёС † Р ° стерли?
              ПодтверждС'РЅРЅРЅС ‹Рµ Р · Р ° РїР ° РЃСЃС‹ РґРёРѕРєСЃРёРґР ° титР° РЅР ° Р (Р ± еР· Р РсСЃСЃРёР »Р »Р »Р »Р »Р »РЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋРЋ FROM,. РќР ° 800 РіРѕРґ, РїРѕ РѕС † енке Р “еоД РсРіРёС З РµСЃРєРѕР№ СЃР »СѓР¶Р ± С‹ РЎРЁРђ, РІ РІРµСЂРµСЃС ‡ СРЂЂЂЂЂЂ · СѓС ‡ С'тР° Р РССЃСЃРёРё, Р · Р ° РїР ° СЃС ‹РёР» СЊРјРµРЅРёС‚РѕРІС ‹С ... СЂСѓРґ состР° РІР» СЏСЋС ‚2006вЂСРЅС °Р ° С, ° СNЅ. ‚РёР» РѕРІС ‹С ... — 603†X 673 РјР »РЅ С‚ [49,7]. РўР ° РєРёРј РѕР ± СЂР ° Р · РѕРј, РїСЂРё РЅС ‹РЅРµС € РЅРёС ... темпР° С ... РґРѕР ± С‹ С З Рё РјРёСЂРѕРІС ‹С ... СЂР ° Р · РИРЅР ... ° СЃРѕРІ титР° РЅР ° (Р ± еР· СѓС З S'тР° Р РсСЃСЃРёРё) С ... РІР ° С‚РёС ‚Р ± РѕР» ее С З РµРј РЅР ° 150 Р »РµС‚.

              Р РѕСЃСЃРёСЏ РѕР ± Р »Р ° РґР ° ет РІС‚РѕСЂС ‹РјРё РІ РјРёСЂРµ, РїРѕСЃР» Рµ КитР° СЏ, R · Р ° РїР ° СЃР ° РјРё титР° РЅР °

              С ... РІР ° С‚РёС ‚РІ миретитР° РЅР ° Рё Р ± еР· Р РѕСЃСЃРёРё Рё РІРѕРѕР ± С ‰ Рµ, прежде С ° Р ° РЏР ° РЏР °Р ° Р °РЏР ° Р °РЏР ° Р °РєРє ‚СЊ СЃ РєСЂРёРєРѕРј СѓСЂСЏСЏСЏ- РЅСѓ С ... оть проверьте Рѕ С З РµРј СЂРµС ‡ СЊ
              1. 0
                19 October 2019 14: 18
                Information about the reserves of titanium ore in the Russian Federation is confidential, therefore, they are not given in any official reviews of world resources. The material on my link contains a transparent hint - an assessment based on open data on ilmenite deposits (with this approach, China repeatedly rolls back from first place).

                The former Soviet republics of Ukraine and Kazakhstan have publicly disclosed information about their titanium ore reserves, which are more than an order of magnitude different from the public reserves of China and Australia.
                1. +2
                  19 October 2019 18: 12
                  Quote: Operator
                  Information about the reserves of titanium ore in the Russian Federation is confidential, therefore, they are not given in any official reviews of world resources. The material on my link contains a transparent hint - an assessment based on open data on ilmenite deposits (with this approach, China repeatedly rolls back from first place).

                  The former Soviet republics of Ukraine and Kazakhstan have publicly disclosed information about their titanium ore reserves, which are more than an order of magnitude different from the public reserves of China and Australia.

                  R ”Р ° пусть РѕРЅРё 150 СЂР ° Р · Р ± СѓРґСѓС‚ СЃРµРєСЂРµС‚РµС ‹РјРё- РІС‹ РІСЂРѕ РЅРёС ... кстР° ти РСРРееѓ belay
                  P "P ° F ± RѕRі SЃ RЅRoRј P ± RμR · ‡ SѓS S'S,R ° F RѕSЃSЃRoRo RїSЂRo SЃRѕRІSЂRμRјRμRЅRЅRѕRј RїRѕS,SЂRμR ± P" RμRЅRoRo P · ° F RїR SЃRѕRІ ° C ... RІR ° S,RoS, RјRoRЅRoRјSѓRј RЅR ° 150 Р »РµС‚.Рто СЏСЃРЅРѕ РЅР ° РїРёСЃР ° РЅРѕ?
                  RЇ RєRѕRЅRμS ‡ RЅRѕ RїRѕRЅRoRјR SЋ ° C ‡ S,Rѕ PI SЃRІRμS,Rμ RѕR RμS ± ‰ F ‡ ° C RЅRoR№ S,Rѕ RЅRμRoR · RІRμSЃS,RЅRѕ RєR ° RєRѕRμ RїRѕRєRѕR "RμRЅRoRμ SЃRѕRІRμS,SЃRєRoS ... P" P SЋRґRμR№ ± СѓРґРµС ‚жить РїСЂРё РєРѕРјРјСѓРЅРёР · РјРµ. lol
                  РќРѕ Р · десь, РєР ° Рє РјРёРЅРёРјСѓРј только С З РµСЂРµР · 6 РєРё СЃ РѕС ‡ РµСЂРµРґРЅС ‹Рј РєСЂРёРєРѕРј СѓСЂР ° Р ° Р ° Р ° Р °, титР° РЅ тол СЊРєРѕ Сѓ РЅР ° СЃ. fellow
                  P'P ° Pј СЃР ° РјРѕРјСѓ то РЅРµ СЃРјРµС € РЅРѕ?
            2. -8
              19 October 2019 17: 16
              Quote: Operator
              Normal people generally apologize for their "alternative" statements at first.

              I have already provided a link to an adequate description of the situation with titanium ore in Russia, which says that we have not even begun to develop the main deposits, which we have more than the rest of the world combined.

              And if we take into account that in the second and third places in the world in terms of titanium reserves are China (our actual ally) and Australia (which is in complete economic and political dependence on China), then in the titanium field our opponents have long been shining ... (you will find the term on my link) laughing


              again alternative thinking from the Operator.
              An article in a Russian newspaper directly says that the Russian Federation does not use any of its deposits in an industrial way.
              The same Yaregskoye is not being developed until now.
              We import titanium-containing concentrates.
              Do you understand this?

              although that with the alternative Operator universe to talk ...
            3. +1
              19 October 2019 21: 04
              Quote: Operator
              Normal people generally apologize for their "alternative" statements at first.

              taking into account YOUR regular PORK and desire to "feed" readers with "GRASS" this statement is funny
    3. 0
      19 October 2019 21: 07
      Quote: Operator
      - the pressure of compressed air on board the nuclear submarine has not had any relation to the depth of immersion for a long time, since powder pressure accumulators are used for emergency ascent

      LIES
      even on 971, not at all this system stood (having very serious limitations)
      Quote: Operator
      The US submarine fleet will always be in the ass in terms of immersion depth not because of the inability to weld titanium with American shipyards, but because of the elementary lack of accessible deposits of this strategic metal

      RAVE
  23. +4
    18 October 2019 21: 20
    * VVD through the system of pressure reducing valves enters consumers in the form of VVD under a pressure of 3000 lb. per sq. inch (approximately 200 kg / cm2). It is with this air that the main ballast tanks are blown *
    I don’t know how it is with them, but with us for the 2nd generation and further, the VVD-400 was used to purge the Central City Hospital. There were no gearboxes in the purge system. And 200 atm is not average pressure, but high (on 1st generation submarines and diesel boats)
  24. +3
    18 October 2019 21: 22
    Quote: Arthur 85
    Will the gear pump not solve the problem of pumping water from tanks?


    It will not solve due to low productivity.
  25. +2
    18 October 2019 21: 36
    I always believed that the VVD at nuclear is produced on board. Well, like there is a margin, but you can just serve steam in an emergency. And he also believed that for emergency blowing on non-atomic there are powder gas generators. It turns out wrong? Strongly do not kick if that.
    1. +1
      19 October 2019 21: 02
      Quote: garri-lin
      but you can just give steam in an emergency

      how about physics? ;)
      how the volume will change after condensation is EMNIP 6 class
      1. 0
        19 October 2019 22: 39
        With physics averages. And the teachers were not very, and there were many other problems with learning. But what will happen to the volume after condensation of the vapor I have an idea. I regularly condense the product of the vital activity of the bacteria responsible for fermentation. Therefore, I wrote about emergency cases. If steam is fed continuously, it is possible to maintain the necessary volume for positive buoyancy. That's why I asked a question.
  26. +2
    18 October 2019 22: 26
    Quote: lucul
    the very existence of Titanium, and this is a big problem))))

    There are no problems with titanium in Russia.
    1. 0
      19 October 2019 21: 51
      It costs from 1650 to 3000 rubles per kilogram, depending on the alloy.
  27. -1
    18 October 2019 22: 29
    Quote: mik193
    Working depth - 400 m, limiting - 550? These are normal diving depths. The combat submarine is not intended

    Diving on 2-3 km the boat will become invulnerable to modern weapons.
    Depth can be changed not only by blowing tanks. You can use aerodynamic rudders for this.
    1. 0
      19 October 2019 21: 01
      Quote: certero
      Diving on 2-3 km the boat will become invulnerable to modern weapons.

      will make new
      business then ...
  28. +1
    18 October 2019 23: 32
    Oleg, thanks for the article! Titanium had a great future, but the nouveau riche decided that Boeing needed it more. Why, then, ours decided to dive deeper - because the maximum reached depth of the torpedo is 914 meters. And then in Mk.48 mod. 4. hi
    1. +1
      19 October 2019 21: 00
      Quote: lexus
      Oleg, thanks for the article!

      article - illiterate nonsense
      Quote: lexus
      but the nouveau riche decided that Boeing needed it more.

      bite your tongue
      this "nouveau riche" (land in peace to the peasant), in fact, a Great man and ascetic

      not just "saved the plant" but developed it to such an extent that it pressed American manufacturers on the American market (up to bringing this to Congress)
      and cooperation - HONEST and MUTUALLY beneficial with Boeing played a huge role here
      1. 0
        19 October 2019 21: 40
        Then write your own - in which there will be competent nonsense.
        1. -1
          19 October 2019 21: 52
          Quote: Vadim237
          Then write your own - in which there will be competent nonsense

          written and said enough
          walk
          reading
  29. 0
    19 October 2019 05: 24
    The author himself admits that there are no reliable sources on Japanese naval technology.
    And one can only guess from the available notation.
    So, where is the guarantee that the number "110" in Japanese designations is the same as in ours? Or that this was not done on purpose to mislead a potential adversary (Russia and China)? So that we rush to spend funds to achieve similar results.
    After all, there were plenty of similar examples during the Cold War. When both we and the Americans deliberately misled the other side regarding the characteristics of weapons.
    1. 0
      19 October 2019 13: 40
      Quote: maidan.izrailovich
      Or that this is not specifically done to mislead a potential adversary (Russia and China)?

      this author specifically does so that someone who knows has blabbed.
  30. +4
    19 October 2019 05: 44
    Р'СЃРµ дело РІ СЃРІР ° СЂРєРµ РѕРєР ° Р · С‹ РІР ° ется. СССРтоже имелпередовы Рµ С‚РµС ... РЅРѕР »РѕРіРёРё СЃРІР ° СЂРѕС З РЅС‹ С ... РїСЂРѕС † ессвР. R 'серединеРN 80-С ... РЅР ° РљРѕР »С С З СѓРіРёРЅСЃРѕРѕРј Р · Р ° РІРѕРґРµ РІРѕ РѕР ± СЂР ° Р ± отке С † РІРјРРРРРРРРРРРРРРРІР ° РІРјРІРјРјРІР °РІРјРІРјРІРјР °РІРјРІРјР °РІРјРІРјРІР °РІРјРІРјРІРјРІРІР R »S'EP ° R · S'EP ° R ± отР° РЅ меЂтод СЃРІР ° СЂРєРё Р» Р ° туни СЌР »РµРєС‚СЂРѕРґСѓРіРѕРІС‹ Рј СЃРїРѕСЃРѕР ±. Р ”РёРїР» РѕРјРёСЂРѕРІР ° РЅРЅС ‹Рµ СЃРІР ° СЂС ‰ РёРєРё РіР» Р ° Р · Р ° Рј РЅРµ верили. РџРѕ всем РєР ° РЅРѕРЅР ° Рј Р »Р ° тунь можно Р» РёР ± Рѕ РїР ° ять, Р »РёР ± Рѕ РєР» епР° ть, Р »РёРЃР ±Р ±Р ±Р ±Р ±Р ±Р ± РѕРІР ° ть РІС ‹СЃРѕРєРѕС ‡ Р ° стотную СЃРІР ° СЂРєСѓ. Р ”СѓРіРѕР№ Р» Р ° тунь РЅРµ РИР ° рится, тР° Рє РєР ° Рє СЃРїР »Р ° РІ РґРІСѓС ... С„ Р ° Р · РЅС ‹Р№. РќРѕ РІ РљРѕР »СЊС ‡ СѓРіРёРЅРµ сумел Рё. Р ”Р °, РІ РєРѕРЅС † Рµ 90-С ... СЂР ° Р · РѕРіРЅР ° Р» Рё РЅР ° С € СѓС З Р ° сток СЃРІР ° СЂРєРё, Р ° теперѸ Рё Р · Р ° Р · Р ° Р P ° PєСЂС ‹С‚ ...
    1. 0
      19 October 2019 15: 17
      "In the mid-80s at the Kolchuginsky non-ferrous metal processing plant, a method of welding brass by the electric arc method was developed." - In the 70s, in the United States, it was already cooked all over by argon-arc welding with an appropriate additive.
      1. 0
        20 October 2019 01: 35
        Quote: Vadim237
        P '70С ‹С ... РµС' РІ РЎРЁРђ уже РІРѕ РІСЃСЋ Р ° СЂРіРѕРЅРѕРґСѓРіРѕРІРѕР№

        R'RsR · RјRsR¶RЅRs. РќРѕ РЅР ° С € РёРј методом РЅРёРєР ° РєР ° СЏ РїСЂРёСЃР ° РґРєР ° РЅРµ треР± РѕРІР ° Р »Р ° СЃСЊ.
        1. 0
          20 October 2019 13: 18
          R'еР· РїСЂРёСЃР ° РґРєРё Р »Р ° тунь РєР ° С З РµСЃС‚РІРµРЅРЅРѕ СЃРІР ° рить РЅРµ РїРѕР» СѓС ‡ ится.
          1. +2
            20 October 2019 15: 16
            Quote: Vadim237
            R'еР· РїСЂРёСЃР ° РґРєРё Р »Р ° тунь РєР ° С З РµСЃС‚РІРµРЅРЅРѕ СЃРІР ° рить РЅРµ РїРѕР» СѓС ‡ ится.

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  31. bar
    0
    19 October 2019 10: 36
    One-sided some article. All problems of deep-sea immersion were reduced to purging the tanks. Moreover, the author himself writes that Komsomolets’s
    The main highlight is the emergency system of purging tanks with the help of gas generators.

    Those. the purge problem is completely solvable, and there is no need to breed dances around it.
    And one more note.
    Among all high-strength steels and alloys, the 48-T titanium alloy proved to be the most technologically advanced in the processing and assembly of hull structures.

    Well, sheer nonsense. Among titanium alloys, 48-T is probably the most technologically advanced in processing and welding, but only a person far from metalworking can compare it with steel.
  32. +3
    19 October 2019 13: 13
    Quote: SovAr238A
    18 aircraft factory and had access to vultures equal to the army general. for mobility systems?

    Then you need to be canned, and guarded so as not to be stolen. Enemies and friends.

    If you even had a pass at the factory entrance, you would know that the tolerances are not ranked by rank.
  33. +1
    19 October 2019 13: 20
    Quote: bar
    Those. the purge problem is completely solvable, and there is no need to breed dances around it.

    It is not a matter of the state of aggregation of the active substance for purging. We are talking about the fact that pumps, pipelines, valves for such pressures would be so cumbersome, not reliable and expensive (they look at the loot in the military commissariat) that depths with such numbers are considered unnecessary. In these matters, size is of great importance.
  34. 0
    19 October 2019 13: 28
    Quote: lexus
    Oleg, thanks for the article! Titanium had a great future, but the nouveau riche decided that Boeing needed it more. Why, then, ours decided to dive deeper - because the maximum reached depth of the torpedo is 914 meters. And then in Mk.48 mod. 4. hi

    Not true. Our guys are not so stupid as to seek to hide from the torpedo deeper. It’s more than stupid not to hide from torpedoes (upgrade this piece of iron to a greater depth, which is two fingers ... compared to the cost of modernization in this regard of an underwater cruiser), but to hide in layers of water having a sharply different temperature, the higher and below, falling into layers that do not allow the sound of sonar.
  35. +1
    19 October 2019 16: 24
    Quote: DrVintorez
    fusion?

    Yeah, and certainly the national territory of the aggressor - for all non-nuclear states that have territorial claims to Russia.

    To minimize the loss of Russians and to get rid of claims from aggressor states forever.

    So you can prepare for hell now bully
  36. -4
    19 October 2019 17: 45
    Quote: SovAr238A
    Quote: lucul
    And you explain that I live in Samara?

    But drown it for Israel, it can be seen from the posts.

    I am not an Israeli ...
    But I am grateful to Israel for that example. how they fight for their country.
    They are able to independently defend themselves in direct warfare and in preventive actions.
    They were not afraid of Iraq at the time of its power in the region and bombed both reactors and guns.
    Although Iraq could take and move with all its armada to Israel and no one would then pickle.
    But even Hussein understood. that from there he will not return.

    I have been to Arab countries many times, many countries, but have never been to Israel.
    And there is a possibility. which I will never, for there are prerequisites.
    But ...
    I saw Arabs from the inside. spent there a total of almost a year.
    And I don't understand how a Russian person can "drown" for the Arabs ...
    I do not understand...
    and your attempts to carry something there against the Israelis and for the Arabs, I consider it simply stupid.
    You just don’t understand who you are protecting.
    Arab - will never be honest with the "infidel" ...
    never.
    And you are infidels, you protect them ...
    Fools ...

    If you have no example in your own country, then you can admire the exploits of Private Ryan.
    Not understanding the deep interests of the country's leadership. supporting the enemies of our enemies, you didn’t do a damn thing at all, at defense-related enterprises. In general, what are you doing here and now? And in Russia, and on this site?
    1. -8
      19 October 2019 20: 13
      Quote: wkd dvk

      In general, what are you doing here and now? And in Russia, and on this site?

      In the Russian Federation I lived, live and will live.
      And unlike many, I still deal with security issues in the Russian Federation.
      My current job is to ensure the uninterrupted operation of the largest militarized structure after the Army, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the FSB, and the Russian Guard.
      A structure that is fully armed with real and automatic weapons.
      Do you know those?
      1. +2
        19 October 2019 20: 34
        Is the FSIN? laughing
        1. -7
          19 October 2019 20: 46
          Quote: Operator
          Is the FSIN? laughing

          FSIN - too small to be the fifth structure ...
          Believe me, you will never guess ...
          I was also very surprised when I started working and learned the real extent ...
          1. 0
            20 October 2019 19: 46
            Article 5 of the law on weapons :) we will never guess, some kind of lol negative
  37. 0
    19 October 2019 17: 51
    Quote: certero
    Quote: mik193
    Working depth - 400 m, limiting - 550? These are normal diving depths. The combat submarine is not intended

    Diving on 2-3 km the boat will become invulnerable to modern weapons.
    Depth can be changed not only by blowing tanks. You can use aerodynamic rudders for this.

    Yes, you now, directly, repress the Nobel! AERO and in water.
    We would read at first that AERO is in airplanes, because they are still not watercraft.
  38. +1
    19 October 2019 17: 59
    Quote: garri-lin
    I always believed that the VVD at nuclear is produced on board. Well, like there is a margin, but you can just serve steam in an emergency. And he also believed that for emergency blowing on non-atomic there are powder gas generators. It turns out wrong? Strongly do not kick if that.

    Where to steam? To ballast tanks? And who will preheat them in order to exclude condensation? Not familiar with such a nasty effect like cavitation? Until the steam heating system warms up, knocking goes like a sledgehammer. And this is at relatively normal temperature extremes of 150-180 degrees. And what will happen if the difference is 400 degrees?
  39. 0
    19 October 2019 18: 06
    You can make a boat of heavy-duty steel, and then at a depth of 1000 meters your cable in the beam lights up and that’s it, put out the light .... There is no point in such boats in connection with work on gravity weapons that will act instantly and at great depths. And Japan will not be soon ....
    1. -8
      19 October 2019 20: 21
      Quote: Dzafdet
      You can make a boat of heavy-duty steel, and then at a depth of 1000 meters your cable in the beam lights up and that’s it, put out the light .... There is no point in such boats in connection with work on gravity weapons that will act instantly and at great depths. And Japan will not be soon ....


      if at least something in the world of science related to the control of gravity would have happened even in laboratory conditions, it would have been a Nobel ...

      A dream of a drunken mind. from a series of perpetual motion machines - wishful thinking is not worth it ..
      Tokamaki fusion can not be implemented for 60 years, although the level of applied science over the past 60 years has jumped a couple of orders of magnitude, but cannot
      1. 0
        19 October 2019 21: 44
        Nothing in the 20s with great confidence they can, Russia does not stand the same in the thermonuclear fusion, the most powerful laser system for compressing thermonuclear fuel in Sarov will be ready soon.
  40. AML
    +1
    19 October 2019 18: 46
    Quote: wkd dvk

    Not true. Our guys are not so stupid as to seek to hide from the torpedo deeper. It’s more than stupid not to hide from torpedoes (upgrade this piece of iron to a greater depth, which is two fingers ... compared to the cost of modernization in this regard of an underwater cruiser), but to hide in layers of water having a sharply different temperature, the higher and below, falling into layers that do not allow the sound of sonar.


    At a depth of 1200 meters, the "quietest" layer, being in it, minimizes the propagation distance of acoustic waves. That's why they were reaching for this depth, and not to get away from torpedoes.
    1. 0
      19 October 2019 19: 10
      Quite right - at a depth of 1200 meters (a layer discovered in 1951 by Soviet physicists Brekhovsky and Rosenberg), the speed of sound propagation is lower than at great depths. Due to this, sounds from underwater objects located below this layer are reflected from it.

      Therefore, for the NPA "Poseidon", a diving depth of 1500 meters is declared. But cork-dumb Russophobes went bile in an attempt to prove otherwise bully
      1. +1
        19 October 2019 20: 55
        Quote: Operator
        Quite right - at a depth of 1200 meters (a layer discovered in 1951 by Soviet physicists Brekhovsky and Rosenberg), the speed of sound propagation is lower than at great depths. Due to this, sounds from underwater objects located below this layer are reflected from it.


        fool
        tell Andryusha (and Ko wink ) this nonsense wassat In what "bursa" (or TsPSh) were you "taught"? lol
  41. +4
    19 October 2019 18: 49
    Quote: atalef
    with modern consumption of reserves, at least 150 years will be enough

    This is if you do not use titanium on the body of foreign nuclear submarines.
    1. +1
      19 October 2019 18: 51
      Quote: Operator
      Quote: atalef
      with modern consumption of reserves, at least 150 years will be enough

      This is if you do not use titanium on the body of foreign nuclear submarines.

      back up your words with some kind of calculations, or, as always, with your finger in the sky, conspiracy theory, REN TV and your Wishlist?
      By the way, read carefully - for 150 years - excluding Russia's reserves.
      Or Russia will keep its titanium 150 years in the bosom? laughing
    2. 0
      19 October 2019 21: 48
      After 150 years, titanium and all other rare earth metals will be mined to the full on asteroids and other planets - there are thousands of these metals there than on Earth.
  42. +3
    19 October 2019 18: 55
    Quote: atalef
    Russia will keep its titanium 150 years in the bosom [and develop a stranger]?

    Finally got it laughing
    1. +1
      19 October 2019 20: 22
      Quote: Operator
      Quote: atalef
      Russia will keep its titanium 150 years in the bosom [and develop a stranger]?

      Finally got it laughing

      it’s a pity that I will not have to live either at this wonderful time.
      Another promise of a brighter future.
      Well, well.
      People hawala.
  43. 0
    19 October 2019 20: 43
    Quote: SovAr238A
    Quote: wkd dvk

    In general, what are you doing here and now? And in Russia, and on this site?

    In the Russian Federation I lived, live and will live.
    And unlike many, I still deal with security issues in the Russian Federation.
    My current job is to ensure the uninterrupted operation of the largest militarized structure after the Army, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the FSB, and the Russian Guard.
    A structure that is fully armed with real and automatic weapons.
    Do you know those?

    You yelled. This is not junk on the forums.
    1. -8
      19 October 2019 21: 00
      Quote: wkd dvk
      [
      You yelled. This is not junk on the forums.

      If you had ever read my messages with a sober head, you would have seen that nothing and no one was voiced.
      It probably doesn’t reach you that there are a huge number of civilians. who have seen much more than you think.
      And yes, and we had subscriptions, and they have already asked me for the deadline.
      and now I work where I fully have the right to voice my place of work - but I won’t.
      The structure, although militarized, is entirely civilian. And no subscriptions are required there.
      He who has a mind and a mind will understand what is at stake.
      And if there is no reason, then continue to call names and carry nonsense.
      I still work. In this structure. And maybe I’ll work for many more years.
      here in a week I’m leaving with a weekly inspection.
      Far and in the cold.
      And I have the right to chat ...
      there are no longer any secrets from enemies.
      long gone.
      since the beginning of the 90s, when the French colonels flew in and our colonels from the state reception showed them absolutely everything.
  44. 0
    19 October 2019 21: 21
    Quote: SovAr238A
    Quote: wkd dvk
    [
    You yelled. This is not junk on the forums.

    If you had ever read my messages with a sober head, you would have seen that nothing and no one was voiced.
    It probably doesn’t reach you that there are a huge number of civilians. who have seen much more than you think.
    And yes, and we had subscriptions, and they have already asked me for the deadline.
    and now I work where I fully have the right to voice my place of work - but I won’t.
    The structure, although militarized, is entirely civilian. And no subscriptions are required there.
    He who has a mind and a mind will understand what is at stake.
    And if there is no reason, then continue to call names and carry nonsense.
    I still work. In this structure. And maybe I’ll work for many more years.
    here in a week I’m leaving with a weekly inspection.
    Far and in the cold.
    And I have the right to chat ...
    there are no longer any secrets from enemies.
    long gone.
    since the beginning of the 90s, when the French colonels flew in and our colonels from the state reception showed them absolutely everything.

    Secrets, as they were, are, they will be. Showed the same bastards. who thought they were friends with the enemy, and that there were no secrets from them.
    If what you signed up for is no longer a secret because of obsolescence, and not in parts, but in full, with all its components, then this is not at all what to say. that you are a carrier at the level of a marshal of something there, uniting the army, navy, aviation, special services and the national guard. Although, this may be the case today. Can. I will not say where, so as not to hurt pride.
  45. 0
    19 October 2019 21: 43
    article KOL - for stupidity, ignorance (author - what was your physics?!?!)
    Why is it that not one of the modern submarines is even able to plunge - even at 1000 meters?

    because they don’t need it
    Unlike bathyscaphes, submarines are required to repeatedly change the depth of underwater during one dive. In other words, the submarine has the ability to repeatedly change the buoyancy margin. This is achieved by filling outboard ballast tanks, which are flushed with air when floating.

    The author, maybe before torturing the "clave" (and readers with this opus) should read a little bit on the topic? The boat pops up the wheel, and is blown out already at periscope depth (or in case of an accident at depth)
    However, not one of the consumer systems of compressed air does not use VVD directly. Sudden pressure drops cause intense freezing and clogging of the valve, while creating the risk of compression outbreaks of oil vapor in the system. The widespread use of VVD under pressure above 300 atm. would create unacceptable dangers on board the submarine.

    for reference - VVD-400 appeared on our submarine at the end of 60x
    MASS
    and it is the VVD-400 that goes "directly" to the Central City Hospital (with us, but amers a little differently)
    At a depth of 2000 m, the pressure is 200 atm. This just corresponds to the maximum value of the VVD and VND in submarine systems.

    NONSENSE
    VSD-45 (read, for example, Romanov's book about "Komsomolets")
    GNI - "less than 10", etc.
    Nowadays, there is a practical possibility of creating a submarine with a hull designed for an immersion depth of 5000 meters. But blowing tanks at such a depth would require air under pressure above 500 atmospheres

    Nonsense - for the above reasons
    American submariners considered traditional outsiders in the field of deep diving

    just LIES
    before the start of 70x they were in the lead, and by a very large margin (until the priorities have changed)
    HY-80 .... Many experts doubt the adequacy of such a decision. Due to the weak hull, boats are unable to fully utilize the capabilities of the ascent systems. Which allow the purging of tanks at much greater depths

    Afftor, can you bring at least one real EXPERT in confirmation of this "sucking a dirty finger"?
    The maximum immersion depth of Komsomolets was estimated to be 1250 m.

    Nonsense, moreover, illiterate
    for the LIMIT and CALCULATED depth - DIFFERENT
    and the LIMIT for "Komsomolets" is named OFFICIALLY - 1000m
    Among the main design differences unusual for other domestic submarines are the 10 Kingstonless tanks located inside a sturdy hull.

    fool
    it's not even nonsense, but just "dirty finger sucking" laughing
    And the main highlight is the emergency system of purging tanks with the help of gas generators.

    and now we look at how many Central City Hospital "Komsomolets" they were
    HY-100. In 1989, the United States laid the foundation for SeaWulf. Two years later, optimism diminished. SeaWulf's case had to be dismantled

    problems of new steels - common to all
    we on our own "danced on a rake" (up to the mass appearance of "hair cracks" in the strong hulls of our submarines on the BS)
    From the American point of view, the standard steel for Japanese submarines is HY-114. Better and more durable - HY-156.
    Silent scene
    “Kawasaki” and “Mitsubishi Heavy Industries” without any high-profile promises and “Poseidons” learned to make hulls from materials that were previously considered indigestible and impossible when building submarines.

    it is based on what such a bold conclusion? what is known with fatigue (for example) for this steel? etc.
    Obtaining steel with a cut-off limit is not a problem, but with the COMPLEX of requirements for submarines - a completely different conversation
    With a robust NS110 steel case, the Soryu working depth is estimated to be at least 600 meters. The limit is 900.

    by whom is it "evaluated"? an illiterate "expert" lol Kaptsov?
    Given the circumstances, the Japanese Navy self-defense today has the deepest fleet of combat submarines.

    taking into account the author wrote CHUSHI, he would have to repeat the school physics course laughing
  46. +2
    19 October 2019 23: 52
    Quote: SovAr238A
    you will never guess

    FSIN - it was irony laughing

    Your "large paramilitary structure with automatic weapons" I know not by hearsay.
  47. 0
    20 October 2019 11: 07
    Oleg Kaptsov! What did you make so many inaccuracies (modestly speaking) in one article about submarines? Ktd Yjdbrjd
  48. +1
    20 October 2019 13: 27
    The US submarine sank to the deepest depths, to the very bottom of the deepest ocean, in the Mariana Trench.
  49. 0
    20 October 2019 20: 46
    The author will never be able to prove that Japan has the number 2 fleet in the world, considering even only the shock capabilities, rep and air defense. The Japanese fleet will not even take out collisions with a part of the Russian Navy, of course, if the Russian Navy has a full-fledged squadron of surface, submarine and auxiliary forces.
  50. 0
    21 October 2019 16: 41
    By the way, I never understood why dynamic stability systems are not used for great depths. Those. on the go, the boat is controlled as L / A and for the emergency ascent system in case of loss of course you can also use powder gas generators - without bothering with the extra-high pressure VVD.
  51. The comment was deleted.
  52. 0
    22 October 2019 00: 36
    The author was lying when he wrote: “The widespread use of high-pressure engines under pressure over 300 atm would create unacceptable dangers on board the submarine.” If it were dangerous, then these systems would not have been created at all. And about what the author wrote about the shut-off valves, saying that they are not designed for them (they freeze), I can answer that on VVD 400 systems I personally installed valves with a maximum load of 600 atm. About oil getting inside the VVD, VSD and VND systems, this is generally nonsense.
    1. +1
      24 October 2019 12: 42
      Quote: viktor706
      The author was lying when he wrote: “The widespread use of high-pressure engines under pressure over 300 atm would create unacceptable dangers on board the submarine.” If it were dangerous, then these systems would not have been created at all.

      so the author is not only off topic, he was even too lazy to google
      the fact that we have VVD-400 since the 2nd generation (late 60s) is a widely known fact and described many times
      Quote: viktor706
      About oil getting inside the VVD, VSD and VND systems, this is generally nonsense.

      but this is not nonsense, but a harsh reality (cases of “airborne oiling” have happened more than once or twice, with very expensive “washing” and lengthy withdrawal of submarines from service)
      This point is one of the “subtle” and important ones when operating compressors.
      1. 0
        10 November 2019 01: 41
        Tell me as an expert. I'm interested in this question. as it seems to me, at the Pacific Fleet (and probably at the Northern Fleet, perhaps to a slightly lesser extent), but there is a sharp shortage of SSSN (hunters) - is this so?! if so, how to explain the fact that the Navy is ordering “extra-expensive” (perhaps really very promising, but due to the price, they are slowly being built, and apparently, as tests show, not problem-free “Ash”), not “parallel” so to speak, their release, with the same spent project 971.1 "Pike-B" (type "Gepard")? or would it probably be better to reduce the cost, on the new technological principles of a submarine, an even smaller VI (say, in the size of an RTMK, or "Barakuda")? The fact is that there are no modern, efficient and compact gas accelerators and reactors to fit into housings smaller than those of the 971 project (I hope you understand the essence of my question)? What is currently preventing the “minimization” in size (and price) of the construction of such nuclear submarines?
  53. 0
    28 November 2019 14: 03
    “But to blow through tanks at such a depth, air under pressure of over 500 atmospheres would be required.”......
    Why blow it out? if you can PUMP OUT the water!
  54. bar
    0
    2 December 2019 10: 19
    Submarines need to change their depth underwater multiple times during a single dive. ... This is achieved by filling ballast tanks with sea water, which are purged with air during ascent

    Old songs about the main thing? Have horizontal rudders and trim already been cancelled? Only sea water is pumped back and forth?
    I didn’t read further sad
  55. 0
    April 27 2020 18: 28
    The Japanese are thinking of hiding at great depths, alas, this could have helped in WWII, but not now.