Combat aircraft. Comparisons. Corsair vs. Hellfeline

91

Which of the fighters, in your opinion, is the best?

F4U Corsair - 87 (52.1%)
52.1%
F6F Hellcat - 80 (47.9%)
47.9%
Well, the moment of understanding has come that it is possible to compare in different ways. It is possible in bulk, as in OBM, it is possible otherwise. Yes, all these “AK vs M-16” are eternal, but nevertheless, in some personalized comparisons there is a sense. Although, in this case, I’m not even quite sure why I brought those who read and understand to the court. I didn’t specifically make a huge article, analyzing everything to the screw, but let's try.

Combat aircraft. Comparisons. Corsair vs. Hellfeline




In the material about Corsair, I touched upon such an interesting point that in the US Marine Corps and the Marine Corps aviation at the same time, two very similar, but at the same time completely different carrier-based fighter planes worked at once.

We are talking about the F4U Corsair from Chance-Vout and the F6F Hellcat from Grumman.



Aircraft are more than worthy of both comparison and memory, because they simply made a huge contribution to the air war in the Pacific Ocean.

And the reason was the F4F Wildcat, which became obsolete as fast as the Japanese modernized their main deck A6M Zero.



And since the Japanese achieved some success in this, the Wild Cats had nothing to catch at the beginning of 1943. Confronting the Zero with American pilots was becoming a problem, so the situation required a fundamental change.

It was planned that the “Wild Cat” would be replaced by the “Corsair,” but the refinement of the latter lasted so long, there were so many shortcomings that it was decided to create a new fighter based on the “Wild Cat” by Grumman as a temporary measure to the appearance of the Corsair.



But it turned out that F6F turned out to be so successful that its release not only did not stop after the appearance of the Corsairs, but also continued until the year 1949. It was the most massive fighter of American naval aviation since World War II. A total of 12 274 aircraft were released.



“Corsairs” were released a little more, 12 571 unit, but the production of F4U lasted until the year 1952, no wonder that so many riveted. The plane was definitely worth it.



First, let’s take a look at the performance characteristics of two aircraft.

Engine


Both aircraft were equipped with a Pratt Whitney R-2800 engine.



"Corsair" received a modification of the Pratt Whitney R-2800-18W power 2100 hp

Hellcat - Pratt Whitney R-2800-10W Double Wasp with 2000 horsepower

Small, but the advantage of the “Corsair”. Actually these 100 hp - this is the abyss. By the standards of that time, it was not just a lot, it was a lot.

Speed


The maximum speed of the Hellcat was 644 km / h, the Corsair accelerated to 4000 km / h at an altitude of more than 717 m, below its speed was 595 km / h.

We can say that approximate equality.

The practical range of the Corsair is 1617 km, and the Hellcat is 2092 km.

Practical ceiling. “Corsair” - 12 650 m., “Hellcat” - 10 900 m.

Rate of climb. “Corsair” - 1180 m / min, “Hellcat” - 1032 m / min.

Empty / take-off weight. “Corsair” - 4175 / 5634, “Hellcat” - 4152 / 5662.

Obviously, with approximately the same mass of 100 “horses”, “Corsair” gave the aircraft some advantage over its counterpart in terms of speed and altitude. But his voracity was higher, which affected the range of the Corsair.



But the range still could not be compared with the Zero, which had a practical range of 3000 kilometers.

weaponry


It was standard: 6 Browning wing machine guns with 12,7-mm caliber ammunition for 400 cartridges per barrel.



The Corsair could still “grab” two 454 kg bombs or eight 127-mm HVAR missiles, and the Hellcat three 454-kg bombs or two 298-mm Secret Tim missiles or six HVAR missiles.



It seems how similar the planes are, right? And why did the Americans toil around outright foolishness, releasing this couple?

In fact, the top three, because the F2G from Goodyear was not in fact a deckhouse, his wings did not add up.



But yes, why did it happen? The FW.190 / Bf.109 and La-5 / Yak-9 pairs are understandable, different motors, different tactics of application. And here?

And here, too, there are nuances.

The "cat" was easier. It is much simpler, and, starting from production, ending with combat use. On it you could just fly and fight. He forgave many mistakes; he could be said to be a universal plane.

In general, many people call F6F universal, but they call it because it does practically everything well, but in no area shows very impressive abilities. Yes, he did everything that was required: he escorted, searched, shot down, stormed, worked at night and so on. And he was very good, until new Japanese planes came closer to the end of the war.



With the Ki-84, Ki-100 and N1K1-J, Hellcat was struggling. But these were already fighters of a different generation, of a different formation, which excelled the F6F in everything.

As an example, they cite the battle of the famous Japanese ace Tetsuzo Iwamoto, who on the Cavanishi fighter N1K1-J "Side-kai" single-handedly entered the battle with six "Hellcat" and destroyed four of them. I do not consider this battle indicative and textbook, since there is absolutely no data on the level of training of American pilots. Agree, if these were young pilots who were sent to patrol (it was in August 1945 of the year), then they would be more in the way and help Iwamoto to arrange a massacre. What he actually did, after which he calmly went home.

But Iwamoto was one of the best pilots in Japan (84 victory).

But “Corsair” was a completely different song. Swearing. It was noted that the plane does not forgive mistakes in piloting in general. You can see the statistics in an article about the Corsair, they actually beat more on the ground and decks than the Japanese did.

But until the very end of the war, the Corsair calmly went out against all Japanese novelties, especially aircraft on the ground of the Air Force. And he won.



However, the Corsair was not for everyone. Difficult to pilot, difficult to master, in battle he became deadly weapons. The problem is that quite a lot of events should have taken place before that moment.

If you give examples and analogies, then “Hellcat” is a Kalashnikov assault rifle. Simple, stress-free, trouble-free and so on. Any pilot could master it, master and go into battle. No wonder F6F was called the "factory of aces."

The only question is who to fight against.

I would compare the Corsair with something like that ... like FN F2000 or our AN-64 Abakan. It’s difficult, peculiar, but if you understand the essence - if you are not omnipotent, you are very dangerous with such weapons.

It is very difficult to say which of the two carrier-based fighters was better. That's why I put the question to the vote, it’s even interesting what readers will say, because the cars are different and similar at the same time.
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  1. +8
    5 October 2019 05: 24
    A fighter should not behave like an unbroken mustang, IMHO. All the same, war is hard and dangerous work, and your weapon should not try to threaten you ... laughing
    1. 0
      12 November 2019 20: 33
      It's debatable. Pokryshkin flew on the "Airacobra" fighter, which was difficult to control, and shot down everyone he came across, so the point is in professionalism and talent
  2. +3
    5 October 2019 06: 21
    The Pacific War was not a war of attrition for the United States. Therefore, a small number is more logical, but better fighters. They didn’t have to, like ours, fight without rest and wear and tear, so Corsair.
    And the deck aviation pilot has been taught this way for a long time, +/- half-trained special training specifically for the corsairs of Corsair - they don’t do the weather
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +3
      5 October 2019 10: 59
      Quote: Uhu
      deck aviation pilot to teach for a long time

      That is why the US Navy could not afford to lose every fourth pilot at the stage special preparations for cottersas happened with VF-11, the first deck squadron to receive these vehicles in the 42nd.
      1. 0
        6 October 2019 05: 20
        Quote: tesser
        VF-11, the first deck squadron

        Guilty typo. Vf-12
  3. +3
    5 October 2019 06: 29
    but in Korea, the Corsair fought actively, and the Hellkets were only used as unmanned bombs
    1. +3
      5 October 2019 08: 54
      Quote: zombee
      but in Korea, the corsair fought actively

      Basically, only as an attack aircraft, for the F4U-4 modification could safely take on 2,2+ tons of missiles, napalm and bombs. It is not entirely correct to compare with Hellcat, who is nevertheless more of a fighter.
      1. +3
        5 October 2019 12: 04
        F4U-4N is quite a fighter, albeit a night one. The corsair, by the way, also shot down the MiG-15.
        1. +3
          5 October 2019 12: 35
          Quote: Earthshaker
          The corsair, by the way, also shot down the MiG-15.

          Well, Kozhedub on La-7 and Me-262, and even the Amer R-51. And what?
          1. 0
            5 October 2019 12: 52
            Quote: Kuroneko
            Kozhedub on La-7 and Me-262, and even the Amer’s R-51.

            In fact, both of these stories have been discussed in detail many times.

            The Mustang story has never been confirmed by Kozhedub himself. She appeared after his death from the words of third parties. It does not look very reliable.

            The story with the reagent, on the contrary, is in the official records. And it’s known that this not Me-262. It was a piston piston with (apparently) a powder accelerator. At the end of the war, a lot of strange things flew in the sky.
            1. +7
              5 October 2019 12: 55
              Quote: tesser
              The Mustang story has never been confirmed by Kozhedub himself. She appeared after his death from the words of third parties. It does not look very reliable.

              Before deciding whether it is worth continuing to discuss this topic or not, let me ask you a question: the shot down Lightning, where you found a tactical map with the designated goals on the Soviet side, do you also consider it a myth or not?
              PS I also note that Kozhedub was far from a fool. And only a fool would have started talking about something like that. Pokryshkin also shot down something wrong, but it was our Soviet Su-2, which is why they forgave him and recognition of the downing of his plane did not carry any foreign policy complications.
              1. +4
                5 October 2019 13: 24
                Quote: Kuroneko
                Pokryshkin also shot something wrong

                Just the story about Pokryshkin has a specific author, Pstygo, EMNIP, and was published during his lifetime. Accordingly, it does not raise questions of reliability.
                Quote: Kuroneko
                because they forgave him

                Friendly fire is an absolute routine before the appearance of respondents friend or foe. The Americans began to shoot down their own from the first day of the war, Halsey's planes over Pearl Harbor. You are in vain reporting such incidents as a sensation.
                Quote: Kuroneko
                no foreign policy complications

                You underestimate the peacefulness of the Americans of '45. They were quite officially shot down in the East B-29 easily forgiven.
                Quote: Kuroneko
                only a fool would start talking about something like that

                So where did this story come from?
                Quote: Kuroneko
                Is it worth it to continue to discuss this topic

                If you intend to move from Kozhedub to the Yugoslav incidents - of course, not worth it. However, I note that it strikes me to show the Americans some kind of small dirty tricks who poop under the door with raids of the incomplete squadron R-38. If they missed the number of April 15 past Berlin for 40 kilometers to the East with the entire 8th Air Army - that would be an American scale. But what was not, that was not.

                By the way, quickly regretted it.
                1. +3
                  5 October 2019 13: 44
                  Quote: tesser
                  However, I note that it strikes me to show the Americans some kind of small dirty tricks who poop under the door with raids of the incomplete squadron R-38.

                  If someone’s desire was there, then it’s definitely not mine.
                  But I asked a little about something else, let me remind you: is it a myth or not?

                  PS And here we are not talking about dirty tricks, but about probing the quality of defense of the front line.
                  If anything, Churchill also ordered to develop a plan for Operation Unthinkable for a reason. And the American staff officers also worked on it.
                  1. 0
                    5 October 2019 14: 01
                    And the quality of defense of the leading edge was checked by the attack of the column on the march? And where does the "Unthinkable"?
                    1. +1
                      5 October 2019 14: 34
                      Quote: Undecim
                      And where does the "Unthinkable"?

                      At least for practical verification of the theoretical calculations of the Allied headquarters.
                      And yes, just the attack of the column on the march is ideal. For from the very beginning of the development of "The Unthinkable" it was clear that competing with the advice on earth was not an option. The allies relied on their superior air power.
                      1. +1
                        5 October 2019 15: 00
                        Sorry, one clarification first.
                        Delirium of persecution - a person’s conviction that a certain person or group of people pursues him: spies, torments, scoffs, plans to harm, rob, kill, etc. The persecutors can be neighbors, colleagues, secret organization, government, fictitious subjects, etc.
                        Now to the point.
                        An air battle over the Nis occurred on November 7, 1944.
                        In May 1945, after assessing the current situation, Churchill gave a command to develop the Unthinkable plan.
                        Question - and one to the other?
                      2. +3
                        5 October 2019 15: 46
                        Quote: Undecim
                        gives command in May 1945.

                        As far as I know, the plan was dated May 15th, that is, its development, nevertheless, began earlier.
                        On the other hand, Yalta demoralized Churchill, for some time he did not understand what was happening. So the "Unthinkable" was late, and Brooks did not rebuild in time, missing even the opportunities that the British had left.
                      3. +1
                        5 October 2019 16: 01
                        Rzheshevsky called May 22 - the date of the readiness of the plan. Instructions for the development, as he believes, were given in April 1945.
                      4. +1
                        5 October 2019 16: 23
                        Quote: Undecim
                        called May 22 - the date the plan is ready. Instructions for the development, as he believes, were given in April 1945.

                        Perhaps he could have forgotten the exact dates. But this does not change the essence. Development began before VE, but too late to seriously change position.
                      5. +1
                        5 October 2019 16: 32
                        Quote: Kuroneko
                        For from the very beginning of the development of "The Unthinkable" it was clear that competing with the advice on earth was not an option. The allies relied on their superior air power.

                        Not quite. Just "Unthinkable" assumed the establishment of three Soviet fronts (Rokossovsky, Zhukov, Konev) with 4 fronts around the boiler (3BF, 2UF, 3UF, 4UF). In addition, without the help of the Americans. The British headquarters rightly noted that it is difficult to count on the success of such a plan.
                        Quote: Kuroneko
                        At least for practical verification of the theoretical calculations of the Allied headquarters

                        There are three points in which the Allies' political understanding of the situation could change.
                        1. Autumn of the 43rd. The success near Kursk gave confidence that the Eastern Front was not going anywhere, at the same time, after Salerno, it became clear that the Allies could not be thrown into the sea. Against this background, the old enemies of Soviet power from the time of the Entente began to raise their heads.
                        2. Autumn of 44th, the formation of a united front in the West along the Antwerp-Marseilles line on the one hand, the actions of the Red Army in Poland and Bulgaria on the other. Here American "realists" like Kennan went against the Soviet regime. Fortunately for the Soviet regime, there was not a single "realist" around Roosevelt.
                        3. March 45th, crossing the Rhine, the actions of Wyszynski in Romania and the NKVD in Poland. Even the USSR’s notebook friends had already turned around, only real partisans like Wallace were holding the defenses.

                        Restrained.

                        With a U-turn in American politics even in March 45th, the situation of the Red Army became desperate. Vienna 50/50, Prague 100% no, the probability after VE to stay outside the Oder-Neisse line, including Berlin, is not zero, but very close to it.
                  2. +3
                    5 October 2019 14: 47
                    Quote: Kuroneko
                    here we are not talking about dirty tricks, but about probing the quality of defense of the front line.

                    You, as I understand it, mean the famous incident near Nis in 44. The "quality of defense" was "probed" on the example of a marching column, which was located 500 km from the nearest Americans, on the other side of the sea.
                    Quote: Kuroneko
                    Is it a myth or not?

                    If about Nish - the truth, of course. An assessment of this event was then given by both parties. The reason is the lack of communication between the ground forces of the 3rd Ukrainian and 15VA, which was supported by the Red Army at the request of the Soviet leadership. Characteristically, even after this incident, the Stavka refused to admit American liaison officers to the headquarters of the ZUF.
                    Quote: Kuroneko
                    If anything, Churchill also ordered to develop a plan for Operation Unthinkable for a reason. And the American staff officers also worked on it.

                    If anything, then nothing to do with the "Unthinkable" american staffers (What kind of staffers? GS Marshall? SES Eisenhower?) did not have. During the period of anarchy in the United States between Yalta and Potsdam, neither Marshall, nor even Eisenhower took responsibility for changing the political goals of the war. In the critical months of the 45th year, Truman was guided by the completely incompetent environment of late Roosevelt, although the events of March of the 45th even a great friend of the USSR, Ambassador Harriman, were forced to write to Washington that it was time to end friendship with the USSR. Roosevelt, according to memoirs, at the end of March was extremely dissatisfied with the news from Moscow, but he already differed little in his capabilities from the dear comrade. K.U. Chernenko.

                    Eisenhower perceived Churchill, a seasoned anti-adviser, as an annoying old alcoholic who still has 1921 in his yard. In a terrible dream, he could not dream that his task was not to defeat the Reich, but to prepare for war with the USSR. If someone had thrown it into his wooden head in time - neither the German Democratic Republic, nor Soviet Czechoslovakia, nor even Yugoslavia (although there were already questions to Churchill and Aleksander) would not have been close. You hardly understand how much the Allies could change even on April 12th.
            2. 0
              6 October 2019 16: 43
              Me-262 was a very moody and raw machine. Slowly accelerated (less thrust-weight ratio compared to La-7) Being forced to join the "dogfight", and even against the ace, there was little chance of success.
              1. 0
                6 October 2019 19: 05
                Quote: 3danimal
                Being forced to join the "dogfight"

                First of all, dogfight versus piston-piston means an inexperienced pilot.
                Secondly, it’s not about whether 262 can be shot down (of course it can), but that Kozhedub specifically did not. It seems that he shot down not so little to come up with more.

                By the way, in the same 52nd minute Serov drowns about Mustangs and evil Americans.
            3. +3
              6 October 2019 19: 54
              tesser.
              Well, yes, of course, for you "there is no prophet in his own country", since all your "authorities" are abroad, in the west. Only to them you reverently listen, and take their word for it.
              1. +1
                6 October 2019 19: 57
                Quote: fighter angel
                since all your "authorities" are abroad, in the west

                Is it Serov, is he in the West? I did not know, glad for him.
                1. +1
                  6 October 2019 20: 12
                  tesser
                  Is Serov your authority? It doesn't seem at all, judging by what you take out here.
                  1. +1
                    6 October 2019 20: 32
                    Firstly, the link to Serov in the palm of your hand over your post.
                    Secondly, if you read my posts, you would see that in the last thread I presented the Americans for materiel, and in this - also for the political and military leadership. Nobody is perfect, and the Allies - right now, they are not very ideal.
  4. +6
    5 October 2019 06: 50
    The maximum speed of the Hellcat was 644 km / h, the Corsair accelerated to 4000 km / h at an altitude of more than 717 m, below its speed was 595 km / h.

    We can say that approximate equality. fucking equality))))
  5. +6
    5 October 2019 08: 03
    For me, as a cat lover and a cat owner of a whole mustachioed-striped herd (over a dozen tails), the question is not even worth voting - definitely, "Hellcat". Well, actually a Witch, of course, but we preferred to call Hellcat exactly the hellish kitty.
  6. 0
    5 October 2019 08: 29
    He voted for Corsair, as he successfully passed the war in Korea, and the French Corsairs served until the mid-60s. Helket is certainly cool, but at the end of the war, there was no need for him, like escort aircraft carriers based on Liberty (also a weapon of victory, by the way).
  7. +5
    5 October 2019 08: 31
    Other things being equal, Corsair is prettier :).
  8. 0
    5 October 2019 10: 05
    by the end of the war, speed and armament of fighters came to the forefront and here the corsair has a clear advantage, although I am for the cat
  9. +2
    5 October 2019 10: 24
    What is the best fighter of American naval aviation since World War II? Grumman F8F Bearcat :-)
    1. +1
      5 October 2019 11: 02
      Quote: Andrzej K
      What is the best fighter of American naval aviation since World War II? Grumman F8F Bearcat :-)

      And land - P-80.

      But the best fighter in the continental United States is not a little what was required.
    2. +1
      5 October 2019 13: 40
      Grumman F8F Bearcat did not participate in the fighting of World War II.
      1. Alf
        0
        5 October 2019 14: 49
        Quote: Undecim
        Grumman F8F Bearcat did not participate in the fighting of World War II.

        Here you can argue. Yes, I didn’t take part in the battles until I got to the theater of war and the war ended, but theoretically he sailed for the war zone until the end of the war. An interesting incident. As well as the T-44.
        1. +1
          5 October 2019 15: 02
          Argue about what? I wrote: "The Grumman F8F Bearcat did not participate in WWII."
          Can you refute?
          1. Alf
            0
            5 October 2019 15: 21
            So I said it was, but did not participate.
            There was another interesting Sea Wolf plane in the USA. Flew in August 44th, but did not get to the front until the end of the war. So how to count it, 2MV airplane or not?
            1. +1
              5 October 2019 18: 02

              Here's how to count it
              He flew in December 1941.
              First you need to decide what we think - planes designed during the Second World War or planes that participated in the hostilities during the Second World War.
              And the question "how to count it" will be solved automatically.
              1. Alf
                0
                5 October 2019 18: 27
                Quote: Undecim
                He flew in December 1941.

                I mean, he rolled out the first production copy in August 44th.
                1. +2
                  5 October 2019 18: 53
                  The plane, which turned out to be of no use to anyone, but clearly showed that even the US industry could not grasp the immensity.
  10. +6
    5 October 2019 10: 28
    It seems how similar the planes are, right? And why did the Americans toil around outright foolishness, releasing this couple?
    In fact, the top three, because the F2G from Goodyear was not in fact a deckhouse, his wings did not add up.

    Really let out a couple.

    The Goodyear F2G Corsair was developed in 1945, had folding wings and was designed in two versions.
    F2G-1 without wing folding mechanism (the operation could be performed manually) for the marine corps.
    F2G-2 with hydraulic folding wings for the Navy.
    Five copies of each of the options were built, after which its production was stopped.
    As for the question of why the F4U Corsair and F6F Hellcat were produced in parallel, there is no mystery here. F4U as a carrier-based fighter did not take place in spite of all its advantages. The problem of landing on deck was finally solved only by the end of 1944, moreover, not by the Americans, but by the British, who received the F4U under Lend-Lease and tried a lot of options to "teach" it to sit on the deck until they developed the well-known landing scheme.
    Assessing all these factors, Admiral Nimitz, who commanded the naval forces in the Pacific at that time, at the end of 1943 made a decision "to simplify the problems with spare parts, as well as to ensure flexibility in operations on aircraft carriers in the Pacific region, transfer all F4Us to sea infantrymen and equip fighter squadrons on F6F medium and light aircraft carriers. " As practice has shown, the decision was completely justified and each of the aircraft received its well-deserved share of glory. To paraphrase Kozma Prutkov, "every plane is necessarily useful, being used in its place."
    Accordingly, the "clarification" of which of these aircraft is "better" can be purely speculative, abstract.
    1. Alf
      +3
      5 October 2019 14: 52
      Quote: Undecim
      and the British, who received the F4U under Lend-Lease and tried a lot of options to "teach" it to sit on the deck, until they developed a well-known landing scheme.

      Small clarification.
      The British Corsairs were somewhat different from the American. In particular, due to the smaller aircraft lifts of British aircraft carriers, it was necessary to shorten the wing planes by eight inches. Quite unexpectedly, “circumcision” had a positive effect on the diving qualities of the aircraft, reduced “parachuting” at the final stage of landing.
      1. -2
        5 October 2019 15: 06
        I did not set myself the task of examining the differences between the British "Corsairs" from the American ones, since this is indirectly related to the issue under consideration.
    2. +1
      5 October 2019 20: 46
      Quote: Undecim
      The problem of landing on deck was finally solved only by the end of 1944, moreover, not by the Americans, but by the British, who received the F4U under Lend-Lease and tried a lot of options to "teach" it to sit on the deck until they developed the well-known landing scheme.

      Very interesting nuance. Are they really British? Are there any documents confirming this or just the reasoning of British scientists? I'm not kidding, though I wonder who came up with this method of landing Korsarov (and not only) on an aircraft carrier.
      1. +2
        5 October 2019 20: 55
        If interested, read the comments on the previous article about Corsair
        And yes, it was the British, for example, who were the first to master the landing on Corsair from the left turn and used it in battles with aircraft carriers before the Yankees. The shaves learned the truth a little earlier, by the beginning of 1944
        1. 0
          5 October 2019 20: 58
          Quote: Engineer
          And yes, it’s the British

          I just asked what exactly confirms this? The British and aircraft carriers with a gulkin nose, and military practice is not visible. But it was they who came up with how to solve the problem of Corsair. And why?
          1. 0
            5 October 2019 21: 01
            First of all, because they could not create normal decks, and had to squeeze the maximum out of what was supplied by the land lease. So the corsairs shortened earlier.
            1. +3
              5 October 2019 21: 04
              And they began to trust new equipment to beginners and ordinary pilots. I already wrote what was the same 17th squadron of Americans who received one of the first corsair. And sent to the squadrons having decent combat experience- (in particular pilots Illastiries)
              1. 0
                5 October 2019 21: 21
                Quote: Engineer
                And they began to trust new equipment to beginners and ordinary pilots.

                It sounds strange but it may well be .. :)
                1. 0
                  5 October 2019 21: 22
                  not became of course)
          2. +2
            5 October 2019 21: 23
            There is a lot on the topic you are discussing.
            https://snorska.livejournal.com/199010.html
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. 0
              5 October 2019 22: 00
              Quote: Town Hall
              There is a lot on the topic you are discussing.
              https://snorska.livejournal.com/199010.html

              Great link! Thank you, it was fun and interesting!
              1. 0
                5 October 2019 22: 05
                You argued so excitingly that you were interested)
                By the way, you seem right. The role of the English pilots in the formation of the Corsairs is exaggerated
        2. -1
          5 October 2019 21: 49
          Quote: Engineer
          If interested, read the comments on the previous article about Corsair
          And yes, it was the British, for example, who were the first to master the landing on Corsair from the left turn and used it in battles with aircraft carriers before the Yankees. The shaves learned the truth a little earlier, by the beginning of 1944

          This is not true.
        3. 0
          5 October 2019 22: 26
          Quote: Engineer
          If interested, read the comments on the previous article about Corsair
          And yes, it was the British, for example, who were the first to master the landing on Corsair from the left turn and used it in battles with aircraft carriers before the Yankees. The shaves learned the truth a little earlier, by the beginning of 1944

          It seems that the Americans themselves dealt with their problems
          Preparations for using the aircraft on aircraft carriers were much more difficult. The first series of test takeoffs and landings, carried out on the Sangamon aircraft carrier, beginning on September 25, 1942, revealed a number of design flaws in the aircraft. "Corsair" unexpectedly, for no apparent reason, lost speed, fell onto the right wing, and if the pilot did not have time to energetically return the rudders away from him, the fighter went into a tailspin. Due to the strong torque of the propeller, instability of the aircraft was felt during takeoff and landing. The fighter literally dangled left and right. The standard landing technique on an aircraft carrier was almost impossible. The engine limited the visibility of the pilot, and drops of oil falling from the engine onto the windshield made visibility even more difficult. At the time of landing, the pilot was forced to approach the ship not in a straight line, but in a bend to see the landing deck. At the moment of landing, the fighter lowered its nose and hit hard with the main wheels. The Corsair bounced on rigidly damped landing gear struts, which often resulted in damage to the aircraft. In this situation, the command of the Navy could not use the F4U-1 as carrier-based fighters.

          Vought-Sicorsky Division, part of United Aircraft Corp., has put a lot of effort into improving the aircraft's performance. More than 100 changes were made to the fighter. To counteract the propeller torque, the stabilizer angle has been changed by 2 degrees to the left. To improve rearward visibility, a 180 mm high bulge is made on the canopy for installing the mirror. Chassis damping has been changed to make them "softer". Oil leakage from the hydraulic control system of the hood shutters was eliminated by closing the upper engine cooling flaps. Additional fuel tanks were placed in front of the wing. ...

          On October 3, 1942, the upgraded F4U-1 fighters began to enter the experimental US Navy VF-12 squadron. However, the command of the fleet was not confident that the pilots would successfully cope with the landing on the aircraft carrier, and therefore the squadron was initially stationed at a ground base in San Diego, California. By January 14, 1943, the VF-12 was fully equipped with 22 Corsair fighters and redeployed aboard the aircraft carrier "Core" on January 22. In March-April 1943, new F4U-1 fighters entered the VF-17 squadron, previously armed with F6F3 Hellcat aircraft. In mid-April, the unit was transferred aboard the aircraft carrier "Bunker Hill". It was the first US Navy carrier-based squadron to enter the battle on Corsair aircraft.

          Squadron VF-17 was the first to prove that the Corsairs were suitable for operations from aircraft carriers. Departing from the islands of New Georgia on November 8, 1943, the F4U from the VF-17 carried out a combat mission to cover the aircraft carriers Essex and Bunker Hill, whose planes attacked the city of Rabaul. Having intercepted and destroyed a group of 18 Japanese bombers, the Corsairs almost completely used up their fuel supply. Therefore, contrary to the instructions, a forced decision was made to board aircraft carriers. All aircraft landed safely on deck. This landing influenced the further decision of the command to use the F4U more extensively from aircraft carriers. ...

          In mid-1943, starting with the 758-series F4U-1 aircraft, production of a new modification of the F4U-1A fighter began on all three assembly lines. Goodyear and Brewster also launched production of a new version of the fighter under the designation FG-1A and F3A-1A, respectively. The main difference between the F4U-1A was the new convex cockpit light. The pilot's seat is raised by 178 mm. Partially, it was possible to cope with the effect of falling over on the wing by installing a 152-mm triangular blotch on the right wing. It was located on the leading edge near the machine-gun holes
          .
          And the English pilots mastered the Corsairs on American programs

          As part of the Mutual Assistance Act in War, the first F4U-1s began to enter service with the FAA (Fleet Air Arm) of the British Navy in early 1943. These were the standard Corsair aircraft, indexed in the USA as F4U-1B (British), and in the UK they were given the designation Corsair F Mk.I. The F4U-1A modification had the English name "Corsair F Mk.II". The last 150 aircraft delivered to the United States were F4U-1D, but the British did not have a special designation. Starting with the Corsair F Mk.II, the wing was reduced by 0,36 meters, since the height of the hangars of British aircraft carriers was less than the American ones. British pilots were trained in the United States and, along with the planes, were transferred to England on escort aircraft carriers. The first FAA Squadron N1830 was deployed on the aircraft carrier "Illustrious" on June 1, 1943. In July, the 1831st squadron on the aircraft carrier "Vengeance", the 1833th on the aircraft carrier "Illastries" and the 1834th FAA squadron on the "Victorius" were formed. Additionally, in August, the formation of the 1835th and 1836th squadrons ("Victories"), and in September 1837 ("Illastries
          1. +3
            5 October 2019 22: 48
            Honestly, I didn’t understand what exactly you are trying to refute.
            As long as I remember none He didn’t speak in the spirit that clever Britons taught Amers to board an aircraft carrier. Undoubtedly, the Americans went their own way. But the fact that the successes of overseas relatives helped to reconsider the place of the Corsairs and provided food for thought, sort of like a common place.
            The 12th and 17th squadrons were indeed certified for flights from aircraft carriers. I wrote about this in the last thread. But let's be objective, this did not convince the command that transferred them to the Marine Corps, along with other aircraft. Yes, and a lot of people crashed, especially in the 12th they also wrote about it
            Indeed, in the year 17, the 43th squadron successfully landed on an aircraft carrier in full force, but even such a fan of Korsarov as I did not even mention this episode. Still, this is an isolated case.
            Let me remind you that the first squadron appeared on the decks of American aircraft carriers only a YEAR later. So, as before, the Americans were not sure.
            The fact that the English pilots were initially trained in American programs does not contradict the fact that they could independently develop their own techniques
            Despite the clipped wings and the shorter decks of British carriers, Royal Navy aviators found landing accidents less of a problem than they had been to US Navy aviators, thanks to the curved approach they used: British units solved the landing visibility problem by approaching the carrier in a medium left-hand turn, which allowed the pilot to keep the carrier's deck in view over the anhedral in the left wing root. This technique was later adopted by US Navy and Marine fliers for carrier use of the Corsair

            Quote from wiki. Source indicated.
            1. +1
              5 October 2019 22: 55
              The technique of landing from a bend was not invented by the British, but by the Americans themselves, during the tests for 42 years, as you can see. This is not some kind of English know-how, but a forced measure. It is just that the Americans (who had something to fly on and in addition to the Corsairs) did not like this method as too dangerous and until the problems were eliminated, they were not used from aircraft carriers. And the "poor" Englishmen did not have much choice and they took these risks. The need presented for virtue seems to be called in Russian)
              1. 0
                5 October 2019 22: 58
                It's just that the Americans (who had something to fly on and in addition to the Corsairs) did not like this method as too dangerous and until they eliminated the problems, they did not use it from aircraft carriers. And the "poor" British did not have much choice and they took these risks. for virtue it seems in Russian this situation is called)

                This is almost one in one my thoughts. Funny)
              2. 0
                5 October 2019 23: 02
                I cited a link to an abstract of the memoirs of the commander of the 17th. There is not a word about such a landing technique. Maybe there was no general implementation, maybe the technique was "rediscovered" Although everything is possible. How disappointing it was for those amers who were pioneers)
                1. 0
                  5 October 2019 23: 18
                  Maybe this technique is simply unacceptable by American standards. And they removed the problem by improving the aircraft and eliminating the causes rather than dashing turns.
                  In April 1944, experiments were completed with the upgraded F4U-1D fighter aboard the escort aircraft carrier "Gambier Bay". The pilots performed 113 take-offs and landings without a single accident. The chassis struts improved on this modification were then implemented on all Corsairs in service. On April 22, the US Navy command removed all restrictions on the use of F4U as carrier-based fighters.
                  1. +2
                    5 October 2019 23: 23
                    I know that. Perhaps that was indeed unacceptable.
                    I should add that in April of 44th, the Corsairs purposefully used the Corsairs in Operation Tangsten. That is, the combat debut with the aircraft carriers behind them.
                    1. -1
                      6 October 2019 00: 29
                      Quote: Engineer
                      I should add that in April of 44th, the Corsairs purposefully used the Corsairs in Operation Tangsten. That is, the combat debut with the aircraft carriers behind them.

                      The first combat unit of carrier-based aviation of the US Navy, received January 9, 1944 in service with the Corsairs, was the squadron VF (N) -101 (actually - half of the squadron VF (N) -75). The unit received four F4U-2 aircraft. VF (N) -101 was part of the 10th Aviation Group, commanded by Lieutenant Commander Richard I. "Chick" Harmer (former senior officer of VF (N) -75). Another four Corsairs, also assigned to the VF (N) -101 squadron, were based on the Intrepid aircraft carrier. The first night interception was made from the aircraft carrier Enterprise on February 19, 1944.
                      1. 0
                        6 October 2019 11: 42
                        Yes, quite an application.
                        Not interested in night lights and burned)
                        It turns out that the Americans really were pioneers in everything regarding the Corsair.
              3. 0
                6 October 2019 01: 03
                as seen
                What is visible from?
                1. 0
                  6 October 2019 08: 26
                  The first series of test takeoffs and landings, carried out on the Sangamon aircraft carrier, beginning on September 25, 1942, revealed a number of design flaws in the aircraft. "Corsair" unexpectedly, for no apparent reason, lost speed, fell onto the right wing, and if the pilot did not have time to energetically return the rudders away from him, the fighter went into a tailspin. Due to the strong torque of the propeller, instability of the aircraft was felt during takeoff and landing. The fighter literally dangled left and right. Standard aircraft carrier landing techniques were nearly impossible. The engine limited the pilot's view, and the oil droplets falling from the engine onto the windshield made visibility even more difficult. At the time of landing, the pilot was forced to approach the ship not in a straight line, but on a bend in order to see the landing deck
                  .
            2. 0
              6 October 2019 19: 16
              Which relatives? Seventy percent of the white population of the United States is called the Germans as their ancestors. Add the descendants of the French, Irish, Italians, Russians, etc.
  11. +3
    5 October 2019 11: 34
    Which plane is the best? Interest Ask.
    I think the best one who can withstand more take-offs and landings on the deck of an aircraft carrier and who spends less effort and money to prepare a re-launch.
    Not every combat mission ends in an air battle with the enemy. War is daily and routine work, and aircraft is a tool. Whose instrument is stronger, he won.
    And success in aerial combat can be achieved by flying on technology that is inferior in terms of technical characteristics to the enemy, correctly using tactical and numerical advantage. What history has repeatedly proven.
  12. +15
    5 October 2019 11: 39
    the reason was the F4F Wildcat, which was becoming obsolete as fast as the Japanese modernized their main A6M Zero deck.

    The F4F was not obsolete by 43. He was born obsolete. A very advanced design compared to the British deck ships, but, unfortunately, he did not fight with the British. And it did not "become a problem to resist" the Japanese in 43. On the contrary, in 42, upon meeting with Zero, the American pilots experienced a shock. In 43, the Americans still came out of the knockdown and began to rectify the situation, it is somewhat possible. Team tactics, + a very inconvenient location for the Japanese (Guadalcanal, before him from Rabaul as to Berlin from England) made it possible to approach the Japanese in terms of losses.

    In Russia, they laugh from the American tanks of the 41st year. But the trouble is that in the 41st year, the Americans had such Lee tanks everywhere, including in naval aviation.

    As an example, they cite the battle of the famous Japanese ace Tetsuzo Iwamoto, who on the Kawanishi N1K1-J "Siden-kai" fighter single-handedly entered the battle with six "Hellkats" and destroyed four of them


    There were several such cases, but the meaning is the same. Accustomed to the Japanese folklaggers of the 45th year, the Americans suddenly met a full-fledged pre-duancanal Japanese. Such and Zero Korsarov shot down, it was the case. But, of course, no conclusions can be drawn about the obsolescence of Americans on such material.

    The same can be said of Japanese superplanes as of Schwalbe. The victory is made by a mass pilot on a mass plane.

    It seems how similar the planes are, right? And why did the Americans toil around outright foolishness, releasing this couple?

    The author writes a lot about the fundamental difference between F6F and F4U, but, as it seems to me, he does not formulate this idea clearly:
    Corsair - a car ordered by the fleet in the 38th. Deck squadrons reached combat readiness only at the end of the 44th. Yes, the British had earlier, the ILC earlier, but not the British and not the ILC ordered this car. If you look at the timings - this is an analogue of Me-262. Against such a background, the achievements of Chance Worth are not particularly impressive.
    Hellcat is military come on, come on. From the terms of reference to the appearance on the decks - less than two years. Not really La-5 - after all, the new engine made the glider completely redo - but close to that. The fact of comparing these two machines speaks in favor of Hellcat. As if, conditionally, in the 42nd there appeared in a large series some T-28M, which would be compared with the T-34, and which would allow to calmly bring the T-34 to mind, that is, to T-34-85.
  13. 0
    5 October 2019 12: 42
    F4U of course.
  14. 0
    5 October 2019 13: 18
    Certainly the Corsair.
  15. +1
    5 October 2019 13: 18
    * Bofayter * TF Mk.21 and * Hellket * are my first models ,,,, already 1988, though I didn’t know their names then, but it was with them that my hobby for the stand began, although it was already in the past,
  16. +2
    5 October 2019 14: 00
    A very interesting document on the loss and results of our rivals. The topic was touched upon, but did not receive proper analysis.
    Source Naval Aviation Combat Statistics

    Our heroes go from the very beginning
    Some features of American statistics
    Action Sorties - sorties. Only when fighting took place
    Example. 12 aircraft fly to escort the bombers. 6 meet the enemy and fight, 2 returned even earlier as technical problems were discovered. Result - 12 sorties - all pilots of the squadron are considered sorties
    Example. 12 fighters accompany the bombers. The bombers completed the mission. Fighters of the enemy did not meet, targets on earth did not attack. A total of 0 sorties.
    Losses on action sorties- losses in sorties. All that is lost in sorties. Landing losses are included here. Decommissioned due to damage - also
    A / A knocked down by fire from the ground
    A / S shot down in aerial combat.
    Operational- lost in sorties due to non-combat reasons. Navigation errors. Fuel consumption, engine fire, etc.
    On other flights- laden in non-combat sorties. Written-off due to damage in such sorties, to the same place.
    Losses on ships and ground- all that is lost at airfields and locations. All planes lost being on the ground. Broken upon landing, typhoons, collisions during taxiing, enemy raids on airfields. Airplanes damaged in a battle during landing are not considered (see above). Those who died on aircraft carriers from enemy actions are considered.
    1. +3
      5 October 2019 14: 15
      In general, everything is correct, but I note that American statistics are criticized a lot because of the definition of Operational / On other flights. There is some reason to believe that this is the main way of swindle with an underestimation of combat losses.
    2. +2
      5 October 2019 15: 22
      PS if you analyze only this table, you can come to a paradoxical conclusion: Hellket is better than a corsair in combat, but inferior in operational characteristics. Then, as in reality, it was the other way around.
      1. 0
        5 October 2019 17: 33
        This is because the helkat earlier began to fight than the corsair - perhaps at that time the main burden of the fighting fell on them. Well, and then, if you believe the words of a person from above that the Hulks were mainly based on aircraft carriers, and corsairs at aerodromes, we can also conclude that non-combat accident is higher due to this factor.
        1. +2
          5 October 2019 17: 53
          Partly true.
          The truth is that the Corsairs only 15 percent of the combat missions of aircraft carriers. There is no information on Hellkets, but probably more than half. Therefore, a higher accident rate of hellkets is natural.
          What remains behind the scenes:
          The corsairs dropped 2.5 times more bombs with the same number of sorties - which means they were used more often as IS and attack aircraft - they were an easier target for enemy fighters, plus they more often and more closely contacted with ZA (although they suffered smaller combat losses)
          The corsair received a baptism of fire for six months before Hellcat. Just in the year 43, the saturation with both fighters was not very significant and this did not play a role. The main role was played by the great predominance of witches on the decks of aircraft carriers. It was at the end of 44-45 that they staged a formidable massacre of the enemy literally devastating airfields on the islands and the metropolis in conditions of total superiority in everything. Due to the greenhouse conditions of the end of the war, fantastic numbers of loss ratios were achieved. And hellkets, which significantly prevailed until the end of the war on the decks for a variety of reasons, finally transferred the balance to their advantage in the competition with the corsair.
  17. +2
    5 October 2019 14: 04
    I'll cast my vote for Hellcat.
    Hellcat was the Navy's main workhorse before the Corsair. He was very loved, he was easy to learn and reliable.
    But it all started with a modification of the Waldcat.
    The author is well done, I especially liked the article about Corsair. More to such articles on IN!
  18. 0
    5 October 2019 14: 22
    Roman, should we expect an article about SBD Dauntless in the future? winked
  19. +1
    5 October 2019 17: 36
    It’s like Yak 1/9 and Lavrchkin 5/7. Although the engines are different there, the principle is the same. Pokryshkin on the shop took pictures ditching the glider. Then he sat on a cobra and sent all the filmmakers to a certain mother. This is not a fake, but the real situation described by the front-line soldiers.
    Corsair pearl. Witch liner affordable and simple. Turning a boost for an intelligent mechanic was no problem. The engines are completely analogous. According to the recollections of our pilots, cobra was given boost if necessary. Amers type slipped and figley here so and here so? Given the wild reliability of Amer’s air vents, any mechanic could wind 100 horses. The question is in competence and most importantly in their relation to technology.
  20. +1
    5 October 2019 18: 09
    The corsair is certainly more perfect, but as a war plane the Cat is better because it allows you to make more cars, as well as prepare more pilots. That in a war is crucial.
  21. 0
    5 October 2019 21: 28
    The article is excellent. Thanks to the author! :)

    I vote Hellcat so unequivocally. It was this machine, due to the ease of development and good performance characteristics, that made it possible to turn the results of the war in the air in favor of America.

    By the way, both cars are twice as large and heavier than the F4F Wildcat. In fact, this is the emergence of a new class of combat vehicles, a fighter-bomber!
  22. 0
    5 October 2019 21: 53
    My choice is the F6F Hellcat. Why? Most pilots need to "put on the wing" and "baptize with fire" without the risk of crashing on the first sorties due to errors in piloting. Ki-84, Ki-100 ... - "beat by number", WWII - you need a lot of aircraft and a lot of pilots for them "here and now", and not "after defeat".
  23. 0
    5 October 2019 22: 15
    What’s good about the Corsair is its higher rate of climb, which allows an attacking, rather than defensive, battle on the horizontal ... Special mention should be made of the Corsair’s wing (back gull), which made it possible to land the plane on its belly relatively safely
  24. +1
    5 October 2019 22: 17
    ,,, no matter how it was, and the "Hellcats" shot down more than five thousand Japanese aircraft (75% of all air victories of the aviation of the fleet).
  25. 0
    6 October 2019 01: 31
    For all the "similarity" of the performance characteristics, it was precisely how the carrier-based fighter "Grumman" "Hellcat" F6F surpassed the "Corsair". The F4U Corsair was the best as a multirole fighter (fighter-bomber). All this comparison is applicable only for the WWII period. In the postwar period, later modifications of the Corsair were clearly superior to the F6F.
  26. +1
    6 October 2019 16: 11
    Novel. In such articles, it would not hurt to mix speed charts, rate of airplanes, which are discussed in the article, and altitude-power characteristics of the engines of these aircraft.



    http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4u/f4u.html
  27. +3
    6 October 2019 22: 10
    VO has become absolutely not interesting. One hundred minuses to the VO itself. Topics are boring, they give absolutely nothing new. Sucking up well-known facts.
    And, well, sucking is often just mistakes and inaccuracies.
    Boredom. It's time to close the review.
  28. +2
    7 October 2019 11: 37
    The author writes:
    It was standard: 6 Browning wing machine guns with 12,7-mm caliber ammunition for 400 cartridges per barrel.

    And although the author mainly uses and quotes airvar, he does not always accurately quote and never indicates the source. Still, one must be precise:
    Now it consisted of 6 machine guns of 12,7 mm caliber, three in each wing. Ammunition was 400 rounds per barrel, except for external machine guns, where the ammunition was less than 25 pieces.

    http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/f4u.html

    The author summarizes:
    "Corsair" received a modification of the Pratt Whitney R-2800-18W power 2100 hp
    Hellcat - Pratt Whitney R-2800-10W Double Wasp with 2000 horsepower
    Small, but the advantage of the “Corsair”. Actually these 100 hp - this is the abyss. By the standards of that time, it was not just a lot, it was a lot.


    In fact http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/f6f.html
    Since November 1943, starting with 862 F4U-1A, an R-2800-8W engine with a power of 2250 hp began to be installed on the aircraft. (with cylinder water injection system)

    In 1944, the F6F-3 began to be equipped with a new R-2800-10W engine with a cylinder water injection system (from 1900 aircraft). Engine power during injection increased to 2200 - 2250 at an altitude of 4724 m (15500 ft) hp.

    R-2800-10WA engines are similar to the -8 series, except for the carburetor PT-13G2-10 and PT-13G6-10 (-10W).
    That is, not quite as the author presents.

    In general, it is correctly indicated that Helkety is a simpler in design, roughly made airplane (direct panels or panels with curvature in one plane for mass production - a workhorse with its drawbacks.

    Zero was superior to Helket in rate of climb at low altitudes:
    The Zero had the best climb rate of 3 m / s at altitudes up to 2743 m, the climb rates of the F6F and A6M5 were approximately the same up to 4267 m, above the Hellket it was better by 2.5 m / s.

    That is, at all main battle heights up to 4267 m - Helket did not surpass Zero in vertical maneuver, but since Helket was less than Zero lost energy in a dive, boom zoom was the most acceptable battle tactic for him - it was vital for Helket to have a headroom / speed in battle with Zero.
  29. 0
    7 October 2019 17: 47
    Any rating so that it is of high quality, suggests the presence of some transient - and voiced (!!!) - rules.
    First, we need a global comparison goal (for a driver who does not leave a big city, in winter, Velcro is better, but for a resident of a village who drives to Moscow to work every day, thorns are likely to be preferable; with fighters as well). In this case, such a goal is not voiced (I think that the author does not even have an understanding for what purposes one should choose one of these two (his goal is simply to attract attention)).
    Secondly, it is necessary to clearly articulate a list of criteria by which an assessment is made. This is not there either.
    Thirdly, based on the purpose of the rating, we must arrange the weighting factors under the criteria. And this has not been done (and not proposed to do).
    So there won't be a good result. Not to mention the fact that there is no benefit from all this: both the "Pirate" and the "Witch" have long since flown away - which one of them you choose will not change anything ...
  30. 0
    8 October 2019 23: 01
    The best fighter is the one in which the best pilot sits. All else being equal...