Soviet Ulyanovsk and American Nimitz: nuclear, aircraft carriers, but why are they so different?

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In this article we continue the theme of the features of the project UTAKR "Ulyanovsk".

Soviet Ulyanovsk and American Nimitz: nuclear, aircraft carriers, but why are they so different?




Air team project 1143.7


In the previous article, we already spoke about the fundamental difference in views on the role of the deck aviation in the USA and the USSR. In America, it was believed that this aircraft is the main force that can solve most of the problems of surface fleetand therefore they built their surface fleet there as a means of supporting the activities of carrier-based aviation. In contrast to this point of view, it was believed in the USSR that the main tasks of the fleet would be accomplished by multipurpose and missile submarines, as well as rocket and artillery surface ships, and that carrier-based aircraft should serve to ensure their combat stability. Accordingly, the Soviet ATACR was created not as multipurpose aircraft carriers, but rather as air defense ships, and this, of course, left a definite imprint on the planned composition of the Ulyanovsk air group. What was she supposed to be? The sources give very different data on this subject, some of which are shown in the table below:



According to the author, the most realistic option was №3 with limiting the number of aircraft to 61 units. in case of rejection of light MiG-29K and bringing the number of Su-33 to 36 units. But, if the USSR had not collapsed, the MiG-29K would almost certainly have received their rightful place on the deck. Do not forget that the MiG-29K was designed based on the solutions of the MiG-29M, and the Su-33 - just on the basis of the usual, front-line Su-27. Thus, the MiG-29K avionics would be much more modern, and the fleet would hardly have refused such aircraft.

In addition, the Ulyanovsk air group can be easily recorded 12 PKR "Granit", in their fighting qualities, representing, rather, disposable unmanned aerial vehicles.

Let us compare the Ulyanovsk air group with the typical compositions of the wings of the US aircraft carriers.


The first digit is the number of squadrons, the second is the number of aircraft in them


Fighters


The air defense of American aircraft carriers was built around an X-NUMX squadron of Tomcat F-2 / D, each consisting of 14-10 airplanes. I must say that Tomkat was originally created as an aircraft capable of ensuring full air supremacy in the immediate vicinity of the aircraft carrier, but ... The car came out quite controversial. The fighter turned out to be very heavy, and with insufficient thrust-weight, therefore, as an air fighter, he lost the same E-FNGX F-12, despite some of the possibilities that the variable geometry of the wing provided him. "Tomkat" was finalized for the use of long-range missiles "Phoenix", but the latter, by and large, were weapons interceptor, and were intended primarily for the destruction of the Soviet missile-carriers Tu-16 and Tu-22, as well as missiles launched from them. But to defeat enemy fighters "Phoenix" were not good enough. At the same time, the Su-33 was a heavy fighter winning air superiority and surpassed the "Tomcat" in combat performance.



In service with American naval pilots were also F / A-18 Hornet aircraft, which were also capable of conducting air combat. However, the key word here was “capable of” - creating the “Hornets”, the American Navy still wanted to get first of all a strike aircraft, which could also stand up for itself in air combat. This is evidenced by the very name of the “Hornet”, because F / A stands for fighter attack, that is, “fighter-attack aircraft”. Comparing it with an equally versatile MiG-29K shows that the MiG is significantly inferior to the American aircraft in shock capabilities, but has a certain superiority in air combat.

Thus, the deck fighters ATAKR "Ulyanovsk" individually superior to their similar American aircraft in their capabilities. At the same time, the superiority in numbers also remained for the domestic aircraft carrier - 36 Su-33 or the mixed air group from 45-48 Su-33 and MiG-29K apparently superior to 24 "Tomcat" or to 40 "Tomcket" and "Hornets".

Strike aircraft


Here the advantage of the American aircraft carrier is obvious. The US carrier-wing wings were compiled on a mandatory basis with specialized and highly effective A-6 Intruder attack aircraft, usually in 16-24 units, while the total number of attack aircraft could be as high as 40 units.



There was nothing like that on the Soviet ATAKR. At Ulyanovsk, only 20-24 MiG-29K could play the role of strike aircraft, but, as mentioned above, they lost not only to the Intruders, but also to the Hornet, according to their capabilities.

As for the Granit PKR, they, no doubt, were a very formidable anti-ship weapon. However, it was not universal (in theory it was possible to shoot over land, but the cost of the Granites was such that there would hardly be a goal justifying such means), and most importantly, the anti-ship missiles had too “short arm” in comparison with the American decked attack aircraft. Of course, the Ulyanovsk ATAK had certain shock capabilities, but they were essentially limited to a distance of about 550 km (Granites combined with MiG-29K with a more or less acceptable combat load), while American Intruders and The Hornets had the opportunity to act 1,5-2 a few times further.

I would like to note that today it has become very fashionable to scold domestic designers and admirals for their commitment to anti-ship missiles: according to a well-established opinion, it would be much better to abandon them, and use the released weight to enhance the capabilities of the air group. That is, to increase its strength, or to take an additional amount of jet fuel, aircraft, etc. This is very reasonable, but still it must be borne in mind that in at least one case, the presence of heavy RCCs perfectly complemented the capabilities of the Ulyanovsk ATAKR.



It is no secret that the leadership of the USSR Armed Forces very seriously perceived the threat posed by the US 6 fleet deployed in the Mediterranean. In order to counter this threat, the USSR Navy created the 5 th OPEC, that is, a large mix of surface and submarine ships, permanently present in the same region. "Interaction" with the 6 fleet was carried out regularly, and military service took place, including in the form of escorting US ships in an immediate readiness to strike at them in the event of a war and receive appropriate orders.

Given the limitations of the Mediterranean, long-range anti-ship missiles in it were an extremely formidable weapon. First, the Granites' range was quite enough to strike from the tracking position - after all, the carrier ship for such anti-ship missiles, which turned out to be in the center of the Mediterranean, could sweep it through from the European to the African coast. Secondly, which is very important at the beginning of the global conflict, the Granites had a short reaction time when compared with deck aircraft. And thirdly, the placement of the Granites at ATAKR made it possible to significantly increase its strike potential with "little blood" - in order to provide the same strike power, for example, using MiG-29K fighter jets, we would have to significantly increase our aircraft group.

Thus, for ATAKR, which were planned to be used for BS as part of the 5 OPESK, the deployment of Granit RCC should be considered to be to some extent justified. Especially since such anti-ship missiles could only be placed on ships of very large displacement, from a missile cruiser and above, which even the USSR could not build in sufficient quantities. However, in this case, there is a surprise that the decision to equip the RCC is incomplete. The fact is that according to the calculations of our naval specialists, a blow to the AUG should have been inflicted with at least 20 rockets, but there were only 12 on the Ulyanovsk ATAKR. I would like to note that when equipping the RCC ship, very significant weights and areas of the premises are spent on sailors and officers serving this type of weapon, on its control systems, etc., which are generally the same for both 12 and 20 CRP And if, for example, for ATAKR, intended for service in the Pacific Fleet, all this is clearly not necessary (it is extremely difficult to imagine how ATAKR would get close to American ships for the distance of use of "Granites"), then for ATAKR, which were to serve in the Northern Fleet and to carry out regular combat service in the Mediterranean, the ammunition charge might have been increased by the 20 RCC.

Provision aircraft


Unfortunately, the ATAKR project had only one type of such machines - we are talking about the DRLO Yak-44 aircraft in the number of 4-8 units. In this regard, Ulyanovsk lost to the US aircraft carrier, which had at its disposal 4-5 DRLO aircraft, the same EW and 4 aircraft tanker based on the A-6 Intruder.

Certainly, the appearance of an ARLO aircraft in the composition of the Soviet carrier-based aviation, capable, as far as can be understood from its descriptions, to conduct also radio-technical reconnaissance, was a giant step forward on the path of combat information support of the USSR Navy. However, the comparative weakness of our regular electronic warfare systems of the end of the last century, combined with the lack of specialized EW aircraft, remained the true “Achilles heel” of our naval aviation. Of course, the presence of "air tankers" also increased the operational capabilities of American aircraft carriers. For the sake of fairness, we note that the Ulyanovsk air group should have included 2 specialized rescue helicopters, but the Americans could perform PLO helicopters.

Anti-submarine defense


As you can see, the Americans paid great attention to the antisubmarine capabilities of their air wing: it included X-NUMX S-10A / B Viking and 3 SH-8H or SH-3F helicopters, and a total of 60 aircraft.


"Viking"


At UTAKR "Ulyanovsk" this is much worse, because there are simply no specialized PLO planes as part of its wing: at the same time, it should be understood that the PLO plane is more efficient and capable of working more distance from the aircraft carrier than the PLO helicopter. But even in terms of numbers, the Ulyanovsk air group was inferior to the American ship, the Ka-15PL helicopters 16-27.

Battle stocks


In this matter, the Ulyanovsk ATAKR also apparently lost to the American aircraft carrier. The author does not have accurate data on the military reserves of Ulyanovsk, but the literature mentions that in this parameter the ATAKR should have more than doubled the previous 1143.5 and 1143.6 projects. On the Kuznetsov TAKR, about 2 500 tons of jet fuel are placed, but there is no exact data on ammunition. Taking into account the information that they are twice as large as the mass of aviation munitions on the previous types of TAKR, we get the maximum 400 t. Accordingly, it would not be a mistake to assume that similar stocks of Ulyanovsk could be 5,5-6 thousand tons. And stocks of ammunition - up to 800- 900, maybe 1 000 tons. At the same time, the similar indicator of the American “Nimitz” is about 8,3-10 thousand tons of jet fuel and up to 2 570 t of air munitions.

Service staff


Here the advantage, again, for the American aircraft carrier. In addition to the crew of the Nimitz itself, on the US aircraft carrier there is also an air group in 2 500 people, while the Ulyanovsk ATAKR was supposed to have only 1 100 people. In other words, the American aircraft carrier was able to “offer” its aircraft better service than the Soviet ATAKR.

Takeoff and landing operations


It is extremely difficult to compare their capabilities on the American aircraft carrier of the Nimitz type and on the Ulyanovsk ATAKR. If only because it is not entirely clear what exactly the Soviet atomic heavy aircraft carrier should have been equipped with.

That is, of course, well-known data that the "Ulyanovsk" was supposed to get 2 steam catapults and a springboard, but how it happened was not quite clear. There is information that initially the project "Ulyanovsk" assumed the presence of three catapults, and it is unclear whether the ATAKR had to carry the springboard at the same time. It is also known that the number of catapults on this ship was the cause of fierce disputes, following which the composition of the "take-off means" was approved. In the end, they stopped on 2 steam catapults, but, according to some data, work in the USSR on electromagnetic catapults advanced so well that Ulyanovsk could get them.



In addition, it is completely unclear how the speeds of lifting aircraft correlate using a catapult or from a springboard: some data for calculations can be obtained only by viewing the video of flights of carrier-based aircraft. In detail, all this was dealt with by the author in a series of articles on the “Kuznetsov TAKR”. Comparison with NATO aircraft carriers ", so here we only summarize what was said earlier.

According to the author’s calculations, an Nimitz-type aircraft carrier is able to lift into the air a group of 45 aircraft in 30 minutes. Strictly speaking, the performance of American catapults is higher, they are capable of sending one plane to the flight for 2,2-2,5 minutes, taking into account the time of arrival to the catapult, etc. But the fact is that, as a rule, the location of a large air group on the deck prevents the 2 catapult from operating four, so that the American aircraft carrier does not start to work at full capacity immediately: all 4 catapults can be activated only after the start of a part of the aircraft. At the same time, "Ulyanovsk", judging by the location of its catapults and starting positions, is fully capable of immediately using two nasal positions for starting from a springboard and both catapults, and later a third ("long") position can join them. At the same time, the speed of lifting fighters from a springboard can easily reach 2 airplanes every three minutes only from two launch pads and 3 - from three, but aircraft carrier catapults will work somewhat slower than American ones, since they are located in such a way that they overlap the takeoff line. Nevertheless, it is entirely possible to assume that the Ulyanovsk ATAKR is capable of providing the rise of no less than 40-45 aircraft in half an hour, that is, its capabilities are quite close to the American nuclear aircraft carrier.

On the other hand, one should not forget that taking off from a catapult for a pilot is more complicated, and besides, fighters cannot take off from “short” launch positions in the maximum take-off mass. But, again, it should be understood that when the aircraft defends the connection, this maximum take-off weight will not be necessary: ​​the fact is that the large reserves of fuel make the aircraft heavier, significantly reducing its maneuverability, and often simply are not required. If the Ulyanovsk ATAKR is to provide a flight for a maximum combat radius, then the lifting speed of the air group will not be so critical and it can be organized from two catapults and one “long” launch position.

Yet, without having all the fullness of the information, the author is inclined to believe that a purely ejection aircraft carrier will have an advantage over a purely springboard or a ship of a mixed scheme, in which both the springboard and the catapult are used. But in the latter case, the superiority of the ejection aircraft carrier may not be so great, and besides, in the case when saving displacement is required, the springboard seems to be almost the only alternative.

The fact is that the steam catapult is the most complicated complex of equipment, steam generators, communications, etc., the total weight of one catapult with all the units serving it reaches 2 000 t. It is clear that two additional catapults will immediately “eat” around 4 000 tons of payload, while the springboard - is a multiple of less, since its mass hardly exceeds several hundred tons.

As for the preparation of aircraft for flight, the “Nimitz”, again, has a preference. As you know, the area of ​​the flight deck is one of the most important characteristics of an aircraft carrier, because the planes ready to take off, filled with suspended arms, are located exactly on it - it is theoretically possible to lower such cars into the hangars, but it is almost extremely dangerous. Accordingly, the larger the flight deck of an aircraft carrier, the larger the air group can be placed on it. So, at “Nimitz” this indicator reaches 18 200 sq.m., while at ATAKR “Ulyanovsk” it is about 15 000 sq.m.

And what is the result?


As a result, we have two completely different aircraft carrier, designed to solve different, in general, problems. As has been said above many times, the Americans placed a leading role on literally everything on their carrier-based aircraft. Accordingly, their standard wing (especially in the 20 "Tomkatov", 20 "Hornet" and 16 "Intruder" versions) was fully universal. It was attended by both airplanes intended primarily for air combat — the Tomcats, and specialized attack intruders, and the Hornets were a magnificent “cavalry reserve” that could enhance, depending on the current situation, fighters or attack aircraft aircraft carrier. At the same time, the actions of fighter and attack aviation were provided with the necessary means of reconnaissance, support and control — DRLO, EW aircraft and also “flying tankers”. In addition, the wing was able to build a powerful anti-submarine defense, echeloning aircraft and helicopters PLO.

Accordingly, the American aircraft carrier was almost an ideal "floating airfield", the main and only task of which was to ensure the functioning of the wing described above.



And, thanks to the versatility of their air group, aircraft carriers of the Nimitz type became truly multi-purpose, capable of effectively destroying surface, ground, air and underwater targets.

At the same time, the Ulyanovsk ATAKR was a much more specialized ship. As is known, specialization is always more effective than universalism, and besides, a number of the above-described shortcomings of Ulyanovsk in the light of the tasks before it are not at all. Consider this a little more.

The Ulyanovsk ATAKR turned out to be significantly less than the Nimitz - 65 800 T against 81 600 T, despite the fact that later the American aircraft carriers of this series “grew up” by about 10 000 T. Accordingly, the Soviet ship cost less, and that when making such Leviathans certainly mattered.

At the same time, in addressing its key task - providing air defense of diverse forces striking US AUG, the Ulyanovsk ATAKR had certain advantages over the Nimitz type aircraft carrier. His air group, “sharpened” for air combat, was able to oppose Tomcats with 24 or up to 40 units. "Tomkatov" and "Hornets" 36 Su-33 or 45-48 Su-33 and MiG-29K, respectively. At the same time, Ulyanovsk could deploy even more air patrols with the participation of DRLO aircraft than the American aircraft carrier, which, again, gave the Soviet ATAKR certain advantages. The only thing the Americans won was the availability of EW aircraft, but it would hardly be crucial.

The American aircraft carrier had some advantage in the possibilities of the rapid rise of the air group, but it was leveled by the tactics of using ATAKR. Of course, if we imagine some hypothetical duel between ATAKR and the US aircraft carrier, then the latter, due to the greater number of catapults, a larger deck area, the presence of specialized Intruder attack aircraft and the superiority of its attack aircraft in the range, will have an undeniable superiority over the Soviet ship.

But the whole question is that no one was going to oppose ATAKR to the atomic "Nimitz" in direct confrontation. The ATAKR was supposed to cover the surface and submarine ships located hundreds of kilometers from the AUG, but it itself was to be positioned much further away: thus, the “air battles” were supposed to “boil” somewhere halfway between the aircraft carrying ships. Thus, incomplete loading of aircraft starting from two “short” positions to a certain extent ceased to be a problem, and when using these positions, the rate of recovery of the Ulyanovsk air group approached Nimitsu. If it was about covering regiments of rocket-carrying aircraft striking at AUG, then its departure is known in advance, and the ATAKR had the opportunity, using two catapults and a third, “long” launch position, to form air cover forces capable of acting on a full radius.

In order to minimize the number of ships involved in the direct guard of ATAKR, the latter was equipped with the most powerful, and not afraid of the word, robotic protection system. In fact, it had to work like this: the electronic reconnaissance equipment automatically detected those or other radiation and automatically carried out countermeasures: jamming, traps, etc. In the event of a ship’s attack, the ATAKR fire weapons, “Daggers” and “Dirks” would have to reflect it automatically and under the control of a single BIUS. That is, very impressive fire capabilities and EW facilities should have acted automatically and, at the same time, “in unison” with each other. The American aircraft carrier defended much weaker. On the other hand, the reduced ATACR displacement did not allow to place on it the equally powerful PTZ that the Nimitz had.

ATAKR was very losing to Nimitsu in the amount of combat reserves - it carried less fuel in 1,5-1,7 times and 2,5-3 times less ammunition. But it should be understood that the American multi-purpose aircraft carrier was created including for a long-term impact on coastal targets. That is, one of the forms of combat use of American aircraft carriers, and, however, not the main one, was supposed to maneuver at a certain distance from the coastline of the enemy and the application of systematic attacks on targets in its territory. At the same time, the ATAKR did not have to do anything of the kind. Compared with such an operation, the destruction of the AUG is transient, and there either the enemy aircraft carrier will be sunk / incapacitated, or our striking squad will be defeated and beaten - in any case, it will no longer need air cover. In addition, ammunition for air combat, for obvious reasons, weighs much less than those used to destroy ships or ground targets.

Conclusions


They are very simple. The Americans, by virtue of the concept of their navy, required effective "floating airfields" —multi-purpose aircraft carriers. It was theirs that they got, bringing the standard displacement of the “Nimitsev” to more than 90 thousand tons, but at the same time sacrificing powerful ship's air defense. At the same time, the USSR was building a highly specialized ATAKR, intended primarily for the destruction of air targets. As a result, the ship was supposed to turn out, although inferior in some parameters to the Nimitsu, but which was fully capable of performing its key function, that is, crushing or tying its wing in battle, thereby ensuring the defeat of the AUG with missile-carrying surface or submarine ships, or land-based aircraft.



In other words, by deliberately weakening the shock capabilities and less significant - the PLO, the Ulyanovsk ATAKR, despite its smaller size, was able to solve airspace control issues, perhaps better than the single AUG, headed by an Nimitz-class aircraft carrier.

And today, when designing the first Russian aircraft carrier, we should, first of all, make a conceptual choice. If we are going to build a fleet in the image and likeness of an American, then we will need a multi-purpose aircraft carrier similar to the American one. At the same time, it is necessary to imagine exactly what to design the “same“ Nimitz ”, only with a displacement of 60 000 t” we will fail. That is, a multi-purpose aircraft carrier in such a displacement, of course, is possible, but it will be much weaker than any American in all, I stress, in all respects.

At the same time, such an aircraft carrier, of course, will require a significant escort: just like the American one: the difference is whether there is almost no support for the ship’s air defense / anti-aircraft system in the 100 000 tonnes or in the 60 000 tonnes. You can even say that the "sixties" aircraft carrier will require more escort than the "Nimitz" or "Gerald R. Ford" - the wing of the latter more and will provide the best level of protection of the connection.

It’s another thing if we adopt the Soviet concept and create not multi-purpose, but specialized aircraft carriers “sharpened”, for example, in air defense - here it’s really possible to do with ships of moderate displacement, which, nevertheless, will be able to fulfill their key function . But it should be understood that in the Soviet concept, the main strike role was played not by deck aircraft, but by the Tu-16 and Tu-22 missile carriers, surface missile and submarine cruisers, while the task of the TAKR and ATAKR was merely ensuring their actions. Thus, having gone along the Soviet way, we can really afford an aircraft carrier that is much smaller than the Nimitz and save on it. But only under the condition of the formation of sufficiently strong rocket-carrying "kulaks", which our aircraft carrier will cover, and which, in fact, will solve the tasks of fighting the forces of the enemy’s fleet.

In other words, before embarking on the construction of an aircraft carrier, it is necessary to decide, neither more nor less, with the concept of the domestic fleet, and this must be done, in essence, long before it was laid down. In an amicable way, it was necessary to know long before the start of the GPN 2011-2020, in order to determine the number and the performance characteristics of the ships planned for construction in the framework of a single concept of naval construction.

It must be said that our fleet’s defeat in the Russo-Japanese war was extremely difficult, but many subsequent actions to revive the fleet (by no means all, alas) deserve the highest praise. The naval general staff seriously thought about what kind of naval forces they would need and why. The composition of the squadrons of which the fleet was to be composed was determined, as well as the tasks assigned to each class of ships. And then, the Russian Empire began to build no longer individual ships, or even their series, but the creation of squadrons, that is, the main structural units of which the fleet was to be composed. Yes, of course, there were still a lot of mistakes in determining the performance characteristics of ships, but the fact is that in Tsarist Russia they finally understood: in order to have a military fleet, it is necessary to build a military fleet, that is, to conduct naval construction within a single concept of its application, and not separate, even though arbitrarily powerful ships. Alas, the only lesson stories is that people do not remember her lessons ...

To be continued ...
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  1. +5
    1 August 2019 05: 47
    but the fact is that in tsarist Russia they finally understood: in order to have a military fleet, it is necessary to build a military fleet, that is, carry out maritime construction within the framework of a single concept of its use, and not separate, even arbitrarily powerful ships. Alas, the only lesson in history is that people do not remember its lessons.
    But they also forget that large surface ships were built in Nikolaevsk, with which tricks they had to carry aircraft-carrying ships through the Bosphorus and Dardanelles. Straits Convention (Montreux, 1936)
    1. +8
      1 August 2019 08: 49
      And the facts today are as follows:
      1. Ulyanovsk was cut into metal.
      2. Development catapults hopelessly failed.
      3. Nikolaev in a hostile state.
      4. There is no money to build a new one, as well as maintenance.

      Therefore, we have what we have.
      1. -1
        2 August 2019 21: 46
        My respect to Andrey!
        Excellent disclosure of the topic, I look forward to the next article, in which I hope to have an active discussion of the topic about which aircraft carrier our fleet needs. Until I hold on to my impulse and wait for an hour thereof.
        And special thanks for the link between the experience of the Russo-Japanese War and the current time. All errors in military planning in the period preceding this war must be taken into account and mistakes of the past will never be repeated ...
        I’ll wait for the next article and then I’ll tell you what I think about this. But if we still talk about the "Ulyanovsk", then its concept is more consistent with the tasks of our fleet than aircraft carriers of the "Nimitz" type, especially if we bear in mind that the "Granat" missile were to become standard weapons not only for nuclear submarines, but also in the future of all the main ships of the Fleet, after their modernization and those ships that were supposed to be laid down in the early 90s.
      2. -2
        3 August 2019 17: 37
        Catapults in Saki stupidly sold by Ukrainians to the Chinese. In Kansk are mounted. So, the fabrication of some kind of failure is incorrect. In addition, the use of steam catapults in the Northern latitudes is very limited.
        Nikolaev is not needed, in our Far East the Star is already better and more modern. There will be an order - they will build it.
        1. +1
          4 August 2019 21: 42
          Quote: Oden280
          Nikolaev is not needed, in our Far East the Star is already better and more modern. There will be an order - they will build it.

          Oh is it ?! Let's not theoretically ... That's when the "Zvezda" (in the Far East) will issue to the mountain for the Navy, in the iron ready, the first three BODs, preferably in the form of something arithmetic mean of projects - 1155.1, - 11560, and of the type that the Morinformsystem Agat website proposed in the form of modernization of pr. 1155 (where there are 12 inclined launchers on the sides of the cabin for Onyx, and in front of the cabin 8: (although there is a place for at least 24 VPU), then only then it will be possible to speak about the competence of the enterprise, for the possible construction of aircraft carriers.That is, let them first build for the Navy, at least 3 BOD (where the last letter will be the same applicable for the word ship / cruiser. Project 11560 is the easiest to meet these requirements, since it was initially designed for variants with long-range air defense systems (both in the version with "Fort-M" and "Polyment-Redut").
        2. -1
          5 August 2019 12: 50
          And they (catapults) were in Saki? Where does the information come from?
    2. 0
      1 August 2019 09: 35
      Where in the Montreux Convention it is said about the impossibility of passing straits by aircraft carriers ?! There is no such item
      1. +3
        1 August 2019 10: 02
        Quote: Nehist
        Where in the Montreux Convention it is said about the impossibility of passing straits by aircraft carriers ?!

        In annex IV.
        Appendix IV
        1. The classes and subclasses of ships to be included in the calculation of the total tonnage of the fleets of Powers coastal to the Black Sea referred to in Article 18 of this Convention are as follows:
        Line ships:
        subclass (a)
        subclass (b)
        Aircraft carriers:
        subclass (a)
        subclass (b)
        Light surface ships:
        subclass (a)
        subclass (b)
        subclass (s)
        Submarines
        as defined in annex II to this Convention.

        The displacement to be taken into account when calculating the total tonnage is the standard displacement as defined in annex II. Only ships that are not “out of date”, as defined in the above-mentioned appendix, will be taken into consideration.

        2. The communication provided for in Article 18, paragraph b) shall also include the total tonnage of ships belonging to the classes and subclasses referred to in paragraph 1 of this annex. Protocol At the time of signing the Convention, of this date, the undersigned plenipotentiaries, committing themselves to their respective governments, declare the adoption of the following decisions:

        1. Turkey will have the right to immediately remilitarize the Straits zone, as defined in the introduction to the Convention.

        2. From August 15, 1936, the Turkish Government will temporarily apply the regime set forth in the said Convention.

        3. This Protocol shall enter into force on this date.


        Done at Montreux, this twentieth day of July one thousand nine hundred and thirty-six.
    3. +4
      1 August 2019 10: 45
      Therefore, they were referred to as "heavy aircraft-carrying cruisers", and not "clean" aircraft carriers, which gave them the right to pass the straits.
      1. +2
        1 August 2019 11: 34
        I hide everything in hangars and raise the trading flag! What has been demonstrated more than once, both the United States and the USSR during the withdrawal of large ships of the class Cruiser and TAVRK
      2. +3
        1 August 2019 17: 24
        Not only. From appendix IV to the Convention on the regime of straits, it can be seen that ships of any class (i.e., aircraft carriers) can be in the fleets of the Black Sea states. At the time of passage of the straits, it is forbidden to perform flights of aircraft on board ships.
    4. +2
      2 August 2019 19: 25
      Quote: Amurets
      But they also forget that large surface ships were built in Nikolaevsk

      This is in which? Which in the Volgograd region or which on the Amur? laughing
      But seriously, this is a huge strategic miscalculation of both the tsarist government and Soviet power.
      The point is not whether Ukraine is with us or not, but that having fleets in four theaters that are loosely interconnected, you only have the largest shipyard at one, and the most geographically and politically isolated.
      1. 0
        5 August 2019 12: 57
        In tsarist times, this happened by accident, thanks to the urgent construction of an "imperial" series of battleships for the Black Sea Fleet; in Soviet times, no one seriously thought about the collapse of the USSR, probably even Yeltsin, Shushkevich and Kravchuk in Viskul.
        1. 0
          5 August 2019 16: 09
          Quote: samaravega
          In tsarist times, this happened by accident, thanks to the urgent construction of an "imperial" series of battleships for the Black Sea Fleet; in Soviet times, no one seriously thought about the collapse of the USSR, probably even Yeltsin, Shushkevich and Kravchuk in Viskul.

          Once again, the point is not in the collapse of the country, but in the isolation of the Black Sea.
          Actually, in tsarist times, shipyards capable of building all types of ships were also in the Baltic. In the Pacific, they did not manage to create anything at the beginning of the war with Japan, and then they did not think about the North. Now the question is why enterprises in the Baltic are now unable to build all types of modern ships, but for the Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet capacities have not been created?
          1. +2
            5 August 2019 17: 29
            Sorry, you are not in control of the situation. In tsarist times, it was due to the urgency in building the "imperial" series of battleships in Nikolaev that the most powerful shipyard was formed (even in Soviet times it was called "battleship", in contrast to the "cruising" Baltic). If we compare the number of dreadnought battleships built for the fleet of the Russian Empire, then Nikolaev built 3 (and in a short time during the war), and the Baltic Shipyard - 2 (slowly, in peacetime). As for the North and the Far East, you are again wrong - under Stalin, very serious shipbuilding capacities were created there, it is no coincidence that battleships of the "Soviet Union" type were laid down at three factories at once (Leningrad, Nikolaev, Severodvinsk). After the war, the priorities were shifted towards the submarine fleet, the most promising fleets for nuclear submarines were the Northern and Pacific ones, respectively, shipbuilding capacities (not very weak, the General Dynamics' Electric Boat by the total number of submarines built "nervously smokes on the sidelines") in Severodvinsk and Komsomolsk-on-Amur were "imprisoned" under the nuclear submarine. The Baltic plant was given the steam turbine (fortunately, the Kirov plant is nearby) and nuclear (where they are without steam turbines) surface water, and Nikolaev - the largest aircraft carriers, as well as all gas turbine (the plant for a gas turbine engine in the same place, in Nikolaev) surface water boats.
            Now the answer to your question is whether the enterprises in the Baltic (even Peter, though Kaliningrad, even Baltiysk) are not able to build all types of modern ships for the following reasons:
            1. Nuclear submarines of any type cannot be built due to the lack of equipment, experience, capacities and specialists (since they have never done anything like this, in this regard they will be surpassed, if still alive, by Krasnoe Sormovo in Nizhny Novgorod, on the Volga river, which built the nuclear submarine SERIOUSLY!).
            2. Medium (of the "frigate" or "destroyer" class) surface ships cannot be built, tk. there is no experience in installing a gas turbine engine, and the steam turbine ships of the indicated classes are hopelessly outdated.
            3. Judging by the fact that the repair and modernization of the aircraft carrier of the "Kiev" type (project 1144) was given to Severodvinsk, although they were built in the Baltic, personnel, equipment, tools and technologies are RELIABLY lost even for ships that were previously built at the Baltic plants.
            As a consolation, I can say that Severodvinsk did not go far: the aircraft carrier for India was being remodeled for a VERY long time, their only aircraft carrier was almost drowned along with the dock, so many aircraft carriers are being altered that it is time to write off. "Kohl the boots start to shake the pastry."
            1. 0
              5 August 2019 22: 07
              Quote: samaravega
              Sorry, you are not in control of the situation. In tsarist times, it was thanks to the urgency in the construction of the "imperial" series of battleships in Nikolaev that the most powerful shipyard turned out (even in Soviet times it was called "battleship", in contrast to the "cruising" Baltic)

              I had never specifically been interested in this issue, but, in general, I knew that for the Baltic, armadillos, and then dreadnought, were still built in the Baltic, and for the Black Sea in Nikolaev.
              Quote: samaravega
              "Krasnoe Sormovo" in Nizhny Novgorod, on the river. Volga, which built the nuclear submarine SERIES!)

              For the Caspian? laughing
              But seriously, I never thought how they were pulled from the Volga. Through the Volga-Don Canal, then into the Sea of ​​Azov and further through the straits?
              1. +1
                6 August 2019 13: 42
                You can read how they (the Premier League) were "pulled" if you are interested. Let me give you a simple example: the first nuclear-powered "aircraft carrier killers" (that is, nuclear submarines armed with missiles to strike aircraft carriers and other surface ships from a submerged position) were nuclear submarines of project 670. Designed and built in Gorky (now Nizhny Novgorod), during the period from 1965 to 1979, 17 nuclear submarines of this project and its development - project 670M were built and transferred to the fleet. All by inland waterways (thanks to IS Stalin) were transferred to the Northern Fleet, from there about half went under the ice to the Pacific Fleet. This is not counting the torpedo nuclear submarines and diesel submarines built in Nizhny. Their transfer along the internal routes to the Northern Fleet, BF and Black Sea Fleet, as well as the transfer of the nuclear submarine from the Northern Fleet to the Pacific Fleet, were, by and large, a routine, although they were prepared and carried out very seriously. Where is this KB and this plant now?
                If you want to really understand why aircraft carriers of the Kirov type were built in the Baltic, the Baku aircraft carrier (aka Gorshkov, I don’t pronounce the Indian name), the aircraft carrier Kuznetsov were built in Nikolaev, and all these brothers are being repaired and re-equipped in Severodvinsk, where a long time ago everything was "sharpened" for the construction (in a large series) of nuclear submarines, and not surface ships, read not only the Internet, but at least some literature. Conclusions on the surface.
              2. +1
                6 August 2019 14: 14
                I apologize for the typo, it must be "thanks to IV Stalin."
                As for the Caspian and the Black Sea, there is nothing to do in the Caspian with nuclear submarines (and submarines in general), neither Iran nor Kazakhstan have the ability to build or transfer to the Caspian even diesel-electric submarines, plus the dominance of the Russian Air Force and BRAV with the Redut and Bastion complexes.
                On the Black Sea: either there is some kind of addition to the Montreux Convention (I have not thoroughly studied the issue), or an unspoken agreement between the parties concerned (NATO, including the United States and Turkey, and the ATS, including the USSR and their successors), but not a single surface or submarine nuclear-powered ship has ever appeared in the Black Sea. Although formally the USSR had the right to build nuclear submarines for the Black Sea Fleet, and Turkey - to buy (because it cannot build) or lease (India rented the nuclear submarine from the USSR and now took it from the Russian Federation, there was no violation of the Non-Proliferation Treaty) and carry them through the straits. Sometimes informal agreements are stronger than paper ones - not a single US president even thought (and does not think now) to "touch" Cuba by force, although the agreements between Khrushchev and Kennedy were more oral, and the widely known and very resonant at the time of the signing and implementation of the INF Treaty was actually "died".
            2. 0
              6 August 2019 17: 43
              Bravo, countryman!
  2. +7
    1 August 2019 05: 48
    Soviet Ulyanovsk and American Nimitz: nuclear, aircraft carriers, but why are they so different?
    If only because one was built and operated, and the second, alas, remained in dreams ...
    1. +13
      1 August 2019 08: 39
      Good time, Sergei. Honestly, we are tired of articles on the topic "alternative history", about grandmother, a device and a grandfather. We are not what to build, we cannot even preserve and repair (one broke, the other lost). The minister will soon not have an office will be. a club of modelers constructors.
      1. +2
        2 August 2019 22: 03
        This article is for warming up the topic. The controversy about what type of aircraft carriers our fleet now needs is archived. The question of laying such ships will be resolved in a few years, but the controversy about the very concept of aircraft-carrying ships for the Russian Navy is now needed and timely ... And the cost of error in this matter is very high.
        1. 0
          3 August 2019 06: 24
          I agree with YOU Bayard that our fleet needs aircraft carriers (yesterday). Yes, the concept should be discussed by specialists. But this should be discussed closed in the Navy and the Ministry of Defense. And do not yell about it at every corner-See what cool models we are for We glue the budget. Why puff up like "airships" (I hope you know this saying)? Why should the layman raise the pressure? Even on the website, more than 80 percent can only imagine what such ships are for us, but the noise is like from a low-flying TU 95.
          1. +1
            3 August 2019 10: 23
            Quote: zadorin1974
            Even on the site, more than 80 percent can imagine what such ships are for us on the fingers, but the noise is like from a low-flying TU 95.

            But this site exists for that. How to expand your horizons to the ordinary, but interested in the layman or military man, but not related to this genus of aircraft?
            This site was created as a veteran, military site and the topics on it, including this one, are important. There is no history without history, and understanding the experience of your country in building a fleet is needed, including for educating young people and forming the right public opinion on such significant undertakings. And the opinions of veterans and current officers will not be superfluous, because not everyone is given the opportunity to convey their thoughts to high headquarters directly, but in these forums this can be done indirectly.
            And models for exhibitions are not only glued for fun - this is marketing, offering your product from a design bureau (project) to interested people, and often not only domestic ones.
            1. +1
              3 August 2019 10: 37
              Bayard. I agree with you about communicating on the site. But the problem is different. Our next model is presented with such pathos that it seems that tomorrow OSK starts punching in dozens. Doesn’t it seem so? And what about marketing I want to cry, who and with what fright will we be able to order an aircraft carrier?
              1. 0
                3 August 2019 11: 00
                Quote: zadorin1974
                .Our next model is presented with such pathos that it seems that tomorrow OSK begins to stamp in dozens

                This is the fault of journalists - low competence and culture of presentation, the search for sensations and hyperbole in the headlines. How small children are played.
                Quote: zadorin1974
                And at the expense of marketing I want to cry, who and with what fright will we be able to order an aircraft carrier?

                At one time they hoped for one more order of the Indians and, apparently, hopes remain - the gigans themselves are very funny. Yes, and not only aircraft carriers are presented at exhibitions, the main emphasis in proposals for frigates, corvettes, MRKs, diesel-electric submarines, but journalists are interested in "large models". Such a model of an aircraft carrier may be standing in a corner, without fanfare, but the journalists saw it and let's rinse it. KB product - drawings and models. Until an interested person with money appears, there will be nothing in the hardware, so visual aids are glued to exhibitions.
                And journalists for such a presentation should be fined ... or rather, flogged on the square with reins for a more thoughtful and responsible attitude to the matter.
                1. 0
                  3 August 2019 12: 36
                  MAGAZINE completely agrees to the account !!!!!, It’s also completely block pseudo-news sites (our services may, BUT DO NOT WANT). But sometimes the Ministry of Defense gives out pearls, it’s just to laugh at its official site.
  3. +8
    1 August 2019 05: 54
    "In other words, before embarking on the construction of an aircraft carrier, one should decide, no less, with the concept of the domestic fleet, and this must be done, in fact, long before its laying." - An excellent wording, namely "the concept of the fleet", and not a trip of kids to an expensive toy store. That's right, but “if we accept the Soviet concept” and take the experience of the Russian Empire, when “the Naval General Staff seriously thought about what naval forces it would need and for what purpose,” then the idea of ​​a Big Fleet emerges from the blue fog again. In fact, in my opinion, the first thing to be determined is the political component, geopolitical goals, a clear understanding of who and under what conditions may turn out to be a potential enemy or potential ally. Otherwise, the Big Fleet will be built again, which will either remain at the shipyards like Stalin's Big Fleet, or never having taken a battle under which it was created as the Big Fleet of the Republic of Ingushetia, it will disappear, or will again find itself in sludge, on sale and "on conservation" unclaimed as the Big Fleet USSR, having previously devoured all the country's resources. In my opinion, the political and naval leadership of the Russian Federation has found a certain new path, not standard and not costly, providing, on the one hand, the military-political presence of the Navy in the oceanic zone, and on the other, changing the vector of weapons from extensive, quantitative blunt growth, to new quality superiority. In this case, new types of weapons will require "for themselves" and new types of warships. Perhaps in this case, the aircraft carriers will turn out to be nothing more than targets slowly crawling through the waters.
    1. +1
      2 August 2019 22: 12
      I agree with you on everything, colleague, except for the last thesis
      Quote: LeonidL
      In this case, new types of weapons will require "for themselves" and new types of warships. Perhaps in this case, the aircraft carriers will turn out to be nothing more than targets slowly crawling over the waters.

      Aircraft carriers for the Russian Navy are needed, as in the case of the USSR Navy, for the combat stability of fleet groupings and, as Andrei correctly noted, to provide air defense at long-range lines. That is impossible without deck-based AWACS aircraft. And this already means that we need aircraft carriers with catapults (preferably electro-magnetic), but at the same time of moderate displacement, because their tasks are "specialized" and not universal.
      1. +2
        3 August 2019 00: 08
        In the future, possibly in the event of a different geopolitical setting, the creation of full-fledged groupings on distant borders. But while there is no foreign branched out (and is not foreseen) naval base network, full-fledged KUG, the very fact of admission of groups to the World Ocean is doubtful. And I do not see any tasks for them, except for educational and military-political type of flag demonstration. On the Black Sea, in the Baltic, and on the Northern Fleet, there are excellent land-based aviation capabilities, incomparably greater than those of an aircraft carrier. The situation is approximately the same with TF, taking into account the real balance of forces and means of the fleets of the great players. On the Mediterranean Sea, a very limited grouping may well be covered by coastal-based aircraft. In any case, one medium aircraft carrier is indispensable - the fleets' trishkin caftan cannot be patched up with it. In addition, God forbid, a serious conflict escalates into a war without any kind of announcements, and so on ... Limited in the whole KUG and AUG will be able to do little and somehow influence something at all until their complete destruction. Therefore, I consider my last thesis to be meaningful. Moreover, in the spirit of the Military Doctrine and the foreign policy of the Russian Federation - "a war can be won only by preventing a war", more specifically - "by creating such a weapon that nullifies the means of counteraction and protection of potential adversaries, makes possible losses inadmissible." This is a much more efficient and less costly way of solving the problem. Although less dramatic, there is less rattling, tinkling and fewer pictures for enthusiastic fans of battles at sea. Well, for those who want to command the fleets and fight at sea, virtual reality and an excellent set of computer games are quite accessible. An excellent and safe opportunity for others to realize their commander's desires and mriyas.
        1. 0
          3 August 2019 00: 32
          I have already set forth my point of view in other forums on this (about the need for an aircraft carrier fleet in the Russian Federation) topic and unfortunately I do not really know how to copy paste ... Therefore, I will say for now (until the next article by Andrey) shorter than I would like.
          Aircraft carriers for the Russian Navy are needed in the first place - not nuclear, in the second - with a displacement of 40 - 000 tons with a catapult, 45 - 000 AWACS aircraft, two squadrons of carrier-based fighter aircraft (2 pieces - 4 combat + 26 twin) and 24 - 2 PLO helicopters ... well, a couple of search and rescue helicopters. On gas turbines. To provide air defense at the distant (remote) lines from the naval base of the Pacific Fleet and the Northern Fleet. I do not see any long-range expeditions for such ships \ AUG in the near future (12 years).
          Our fleet needs such aircraft-carrying ships primarily to disperse anti-submarine and patrol aircraft of a potential enemy (and an incredible one too) over the area of ​​combat deployment and combat duty of our nuclear missile carriers (submarine, strategic). This is the main problem, which is very difficult to solve with the forces of basic aviation both in the Pacific Fleet and in the Northern Fleet. This is exactly the task that "Admiral Kuznetsov" has set, and this will also be the task of his possible colleagues in the aircraft-carrying service.
          I have already covered this topic quite extensively in my previous comments and, in principle, am ready to repeat it, but I hope for Andrei’s next article and I want to look at his view on this difficult topic. Then I will add my five cents to the piggy bank of the collective mind.
          1. 0
            3 August 2019 00: 44
            Considering the economic and production capabilities of the Russian shipbuilding industry, the construction of at least two medium air defense aircraft carriers is a questionable thing in the next 5-10 years. it is necessary to create something similar to the Nikolaev shipyards. Something in this regard is possible at the Kkrchensky "Zaliv" (?), But remember, unique Finnish cranes worked in Nikolaev. Import is now difficult. In addition, for a full-fledged AUG even in the area of ​​close cover, escort and supply ships are needed, ports with their structure are needed, new officers and warrant officers (their training) are needed, coastal infrastructure, DOSs, DOPs, etc. are needed. All this will need to be built simultaneously ... And, finally, I'm not sure that, say, off the coast of Norway, such an AUG with 24 combat aircraft will be able to fully provide something serious in a serious situation ... Likewise, on the TF, with Japan, South Korea, Okinawa and Taiwan nearby - by themselves unsinkable aircraft carriers. In peacetime mode, most likely yes, you can disperse unnecessary witnesses ... but even then only for a limited time in a limited area. The ratio of the cost and the possible result is questionable. So, I'm sorry, but you haven't convinced me yet.
            1. 0
              3 August 2019 01: 24
              Believe me, I have the experience of convincing quite competent opponents. I wouldn’t want now (too late) to spread my thoughts on the tree (in the original - with a cape - that is, a squirrel), so now I will say it briefly and briefly.
              Quote: LeonidL
              I’m not sure that, say off the coast of Norway, such an AUG with 24 combat aircraft will be able to fully provide something serious in a serious environment

              It can - based on air defense means of escort ships. And do not speak so dismissively of such (24 pcs.) The number of combat fighters, this is the number of the modern aviation regiment. So he can. Especially if the situation is really serious, because then the enemy’s airfields will be handed down in the first place and they will have very big problems with the massive attack.
              Quote: LeonidL
              the construction of at least two medium-sized air defense carriers is a dubious thing in the next 5-10 years.

              Naturally, if such a ship (as the lead one) is laid down in 2 - 3 years, then it will not enter service until 2030. This is all about the medium / long term. So all these "aircraft carrier armada" will not threaten us in the near future ... and our opponents as well.
              Quote: LeonidL
              We need coastal infrastructure, DOS, DOP, etc. All this will need to be built at the same time.

              Of course . And the trouble of our Soviet-era fleet was precisely in the fact that building ships did not create proper coastal infrastructure. Therefore, it is imperative to build. And there is time for this, and there is enough time for this.

              And regarding the rate on island airbases, as "unsinkable aircraft carriers", I have already described in great detail before with an approximate calculation and all the costs of such a basing of full-fledged regiments ... I will not repeat myself, but the price of such a full-fledged base is very close (or even exceeds) to the cost of such a (medium) aircraft carrier, especially with the cost of operating it. And how many such island bases will be required ... no budget will be enough ... Moreover, living people, officers with families, children will have to serve there ... It is very expensive.
              And the cost of such an aircraft carrier (40 - 45 thousand tons) will be about 1,5 - 2 billion dollars. - these are the figures of St. Petersburg shipbuilders - 3 - 4 times cheaper than the nuclear "Storm". So for the price of 1,5 - 2 "Storms" you can build a grouping of six aircraft carriers - 3 for each fleet (Pacific Fleet and Northern Fleet).

              Enough I am going to sleep . hi
              1. +1
                3 August 2019 06: 42
                Not convinced! 24 fighters on one site, a carousel with refueling and rearmament, repairs, damage to the finisher, ... repulsing attacks, air defense of ships has not dimensionless cellars, and they will attack from all directions and everything on the shore, but there are a lot of things ... No, not a ride. The only way out is to have such a weapon that no one has a bad desire. And do not get into a brawl for no reason first. In general, let's live together, ”said the cat Leopold. And he was smart.
                1. 0
                  3 August 2019 10: 46
                  Performing the functions of air defense and dispersal of anti-submarine \ patrol aviation, such an aircraft carrier is unlikely to be so close to the enemy’s coast that it can take on all the aviation as such. And it will be able to completely reflect the attack of the enemy’s base aviation at the limit of its range. Do not assign an aircraft carrier air defense strike functions. In addition, if a massive raid occurs on such a ship, then this is a big war, and this already means that all enemy airfields will be delivered with the first strike. The tasks of such ships are covering the deployment zones of submarine missile carriers and the distant (remote) frontier of the naval air defense.
                  But Russia has and is improving its weapons for the wit of any adversary, so the adversaries will have to live in harmony with us ... and behave quietly.
                  1. 0
                    3 August 2019 19: 17
                    Not so close where is it? How? What for? Then from whom and what to cover the air defense aircraft carrier? Maybe that's how it is? "Highley like"? What "shock functions" have I attributed? But an air defense aircraft carrier in the composition of the KUG or AUG, or am I mistaken? Or then where and why, what covers? Deploying what? Impact nuclear submarines? But again, they will not come out to intercept them with clubs. "The big war and the enemy's airfields have been demolished," and the enemy, what did he sit and not take down? It is even easier to demolish targets at sea. I agree with the last phrase - peace is better than war. weapons should protect and ensure peace, and for those wishing to fight - a sofa and computer games. Especially advanced, you can even put on an admiral's cap for complete happiness.
                    1. 0
                      3 August 2019 20: 04
                      Quote: LeonidL
                      Not so close where is it? How? What for? Then from whom and what to cover the air defense carrier?

                      Barents and Okhotsk seas. To prevent the appearance of aircraft submarines in the area of ​​combat deployment SSBNs. These SSBNs are our asset in the event of a retaliatory strike in the event of a nuclear weapon (ground-based ICBMs retaliate). The second task for the air defense carrier and its escort is anti-submarine defense \ search for enemy submarine hunters using their own hull and anti-aircraft helicopters (at least 12 pcs. On board the aircraft carrier + escort helicopters) + assistance in the operation of the base anti-aircraft from their native coast.

                      The participation of such aircraft carriers in the KMG is quite acceptable and desirable, but their main task is described above.

                      The main advantage of such ships is the provision of deck-based airborne AWACS air patrols, which will provide coverage of the air and surface conditions at a distance of at least 600 km from the patrol zone of each of these aircraft. And of course, the presence of interceptor fighters for reaction to identified targets.

                      It will be extremely difficult to provide SSBN cover in areas of combat deployment by base aviation forces, because it will not be possible to keep airplanes on duty for a long time due to the great distance from aerodromes, and interception from standby mode at the aerodrome will be ineffective due to the long distance and therefore the reaction of fighters will be late.
                      Therefore, the best solution to this problem is an air defense / PLO aircraft carrier of medium displacement. At a price it will come out 4 times cheaper than the nuclear "Storm" and 10 times cheaper than the American Ford. So the budget will not strain, but the stability of the fleet will strengthen and balance.
                      1. 0
                        3 August 2019 22: 06
                        "... in the event of a retaliatory strike in the event of nuclear weapons (retaliatory-counter strike land-based ICBMs" ... It seems to me that after the first mutual strike, there will simply be no second or the next, and there will be no time and no one.
                      2. 0
                        4 August 2019 14: 03
                        Not many warheads on strategic nuclear forces remained with our potential adversary / partner. And not all of them will be used in the first stroke. For reasoning a civil phrase like
                        Quote: LeonidL
                        It seems to me that after the first mutual strike, there will simply be no time and no one to think about the second or anything subsequent.

                        Valid. But not for the military. The war is fought until the complete destruction of the enemy’s forces, their surrender, or, in extreme cases, to a truce. The field of the first strike does not add up the paws. He has many military bases around the world and has quite active allies, which also need to be borne in mind, and not all ammunition in the reciprocal strike can work normally. Therefore, after further exploration, a second strike will take place (for us too), and the means for this strike must be preserved. If such means of SSBNs are under reliable cover, then the chances of a sudden blow to them will be much less.
                        The life of the military is a constant readiness for war.
                        In any case, SO should be.
                        And all the means for this should also be.
                      3. 0
                        4 August 2019 18: 34
                        Don't you think that the Apocalypse depicted by you presupposes the complete and widespread destruction of everything and everyone? But such a result is achieved by the strategic nuclear forces, without unnecessary jerking and worries about any participation of surface ships at all? What is the way out to cover the deployment, if you can shoot missiles without leaving the pier? if you jam everyone with "calibers" even from the Marquis puddle, even from the Volga, even from Ladoga, etc. why, in front of the proposed Apocalypse, also spend money on iron rubbish in this case? I think that the authorities of the Russian Federation understand all this very well, calculate and believe that deterrent weapons are much less expensive and more effective than an effective but practically useless in a real situation, God forbid, it is a spectacularly effective and costly weapon. You should not throw money, which is already not thick, on the projects. it was very interesting to discuss with you. Good luck.
                      4. 0
                        4 August 2019 20: 56
                        Quote: LeonidL
                        But such a result is achieved and strategic nuclear forces, without unnecessary twitching and anxiety about any involvement at all surface ships?

                        How many ICBMs do we have now? At the end of the USSR, there were 1750 of them, up to 400 heavy. There are 950 more on the submarine. It was a very, very serious arsenal.
                        What now ? And half of them are on the Premier League.
                        Do you suggest rockets from the pier?
                        In a preemptive strike, or reciprocating?
                        Suppose in the oncoming counter. Those. in response to the enemy’s already launched missiles.
                        So ?
                        And if so, then answer, will there be a blow to our naval forces in the first strike?
                        Thus, from the pier of which you plan to launch in the reciprocal strike ... and do not bring the Lord - in the return one (there will definitely be nobody and nothing). One warhead in the harbor and the nuclear submarines at the pier no longer shoot at anyone.
                        In addition to those nuclear submarines that will be on combat patrol, and if at the same time their location will not be opened by multi-purpose nuclear submarines-hunters of the enemy and his anti-submarine aircraft.
                        And our enemy will very, very try to open their location and also destroy the first, sudden blow.
                        That is why during the threatened period, ALL SSBNs immediately go to the areas of combat deployment, and multi-purpose nuclear submarines - to cover them, like all surface forces of the fleet - to cover them.
                        But how to disperse enemy anti-submarine aircraft?
                        What about strike aircraft that will attack our surface forces? Cellar ship air defense systems have a limited capacity.
                        What about sub-hunters? How to drive them? Without a good anti-submarine helicopter wing, this will not be easy.
                        The tasks of the fleet can be solved only in a comprehensive manner. And the above aircraft carriers can not do here.
                        Why do you think our enemy would sabotage the aircraft carrier Kuznetsov being repaired? If it is so ineffective and useless, as many would-be bloggers say?
                      5. 0
                        5 August 2019 01: 02
                        You contradict yourself in many ways. If a preemptive strike on the bases - then there will be no one to leave and there is no need to cover this zero with something zero. However, you do not take into account air defense and missile defense, nuclear weapons warning systems, etc. If there is a certain period of time, then it is pointless to spend it on the exit - it is easier to organize a retaliatory strike where you are based. But, I really hope, all this is nothing more than a game of the mind. The system of mutual restraint works and while it is working you can frolic on the pages of "VO" or on computer screenshots. Personally, I prefer peaceful scenarios. And then if you scare, scare, then you can do it out of fright. Therefore, I consider the discussion fruitfully completed. Good luck!
                      6. ttt
                        0
                        15 August 2019 14: 48
                        -But how to disperse enemy anti-submarine aircraft?
                        -A strike aircraft that will attack our surface forces? Cellars - ship SAM systems have a limited capacity.
                        -A sub-hunters? How to drive them?

                        You will not disperse them in any way before the declaration of war. Neither anti-submarine aircraft nor sub-hunters. International waters are open - everyone can swim and fly there. Another thing is that the enemy is unlikely to want to provoke us to the first blow. But the aircraft carrier has nothing to do with it.

                        And if you accept the option of the initial period without the use of nuclear weapons, it’s better to hide SSBNs somewhere in the White Sea, where no enemy strike submarine can reach with all its desire. The aircraft carrier again had nothing to do with it.
                      7. 0
                        15 August 2019 15: 29
                        Quote: ttt
                        You will not disperse them in any way before the declaration of war. Neither anti-submarine aircraft nor sub-hunters.

                        And in a threatened period?
                        And in the first - the most critical hours of conflict / war?
                        There are many methods of ousting aviation submarines from the deployment area. The same is with the enemy's submarine - having taken them for escort, you can simply "score" with sonars, and believe me, the submarine taken into such a turn will prefer to leave the area, because, having remained on contact, she will live in the event of a conflict in a matter of minutes.

                        I do not want to repeat about the role of air defense carriers in the protection of the near sea zone and the areas of combat deployment of SSBNs, I have repeatedly stated this, including and in this forum. Of course, you can do without them, but the geography of our water areas in the North and the Far East is such that the base aviation will be late with the reaction, it will not be possible to quickly build up aviation forces in the remote zone, organize constant patrols, including AWACS (deck-mounted) and couples / links on duty.

                        I do not suggest flogging any fever, but by the time the industry and the economy as a whole are ready, we should already have a very good idea of ​​what, why, in what quality and quantity our fleet needs, what infrastructure we need for this and how to fit into the existing budget for rearmament.
          2. 0
            3 August 2019 00: 52
            I will add - "Kuznetsov" was created by another country, at a different time and under different conditions. The country was the most powerful - the USSR, the system was socialist and all the country's enterprises worked for the state and not for merchants, the Soviet Navy had the opportunity (albeit not very abundant) of basing on almost all continents in the World Ocean. Today the Russian Federation is a truncated version of the Republic of Ingushetia, it is a capitalist system, a huge part of industrial capacities has been cut off and / or destroyed, killed, there are practically no basing possibilities, with the exception of Tartus with its limited capabilities.
            1. 0
              3 August 2019 01: 41
              It was rebuilt by Vikramaditya (it was easier to rebuild) in the north - where even under Stalin our super-battleships were going to build.
              In the Baltic Sea, in St. Petersburg, new elings and a dry dock for 400 m have been built. UDCs with a displacement of 30–40–50 thousand tons can be built, or aircraft carriers can be built. Gas turbines are already there for them, and the road will take over the road.
              And e / m catapults in the USSR were developed very successfully and the backlog should have remained ... The Chinese are already testing the Yak-44 in iron, so it’s time for us to use this on land.
              Quote: LeonidL
              there are practically no base options

              Camran awaits.
              Venezuela too.
              Iran will be happy.
              Ecuador, Nicaragua and Cuba will also not be opposed to the call of a Nuclear-powered aircraft carrier with escort ships - this is very economically, image-wise and geopolitical.
              But all this will be (God forbid that it be so) not soon - in 10 - 15 years. In the meantime ... while talking about "beautiful" - about ships.
              1. +1
                3 August 2019 06: 36
                Kamran has not been waiting for a long time, read it. It is very difficult to say what awaits in Venezuela, perhaps a certain Guaido, only the Fleet will pull in there. Iran, well, here, too, most likely there will be no dastiness, but it will turn out at the first uneven sigh something similar to how they left (ran away, took their legs) from Albania or Aden, Mogadishu ... Ecuador, Nicaragua and Cuba may not object to calling from visit, but, alas, judging by the processes that are going on, nothing more. One does not have to dream of a naval base at all. In the north, under Stalin, nothing was supposed to be built and why not, there was the Nikolaev complex. What you listed is for icebreakers, tankers, a commercial fleet. For aircraft carriers, all this is small. Read about Nikolaev shipyards. BUT no one forbids talking about the beautiful years 10-15. Another thing is that after 10-15 years both the world and the fleet will be slightly different. Personally, I won’t put a penny on aircraft carriers. Their century has passed, following the century of battleships.
                More precisely, they are good where they are good today - to "punish" Yugoslavia, Serbia, Iraq, Syria, Libya ... some other Mambu-Tambu. But if at least an inferior atomic bomb and a rocket accept or quite yourself air defense and other dirty tricks like in Vietnam and Iran ... then everything is not so great. Those aircraft carriers are a political weapon, a weapon of struggle for influence, for punishment, etc., but not for a serious big war. These tasks are alien to Russia, and therefore - only as an air defense KUG, but .... and everything again returns to normal. We'll be back in 15 years
                to the discussion.
              2. +1
                3 August 2019 19: 19
                By the way, about the construction, in the North there was one floating dock of the appropriate size. Where is he now? ... drowned. Who and how? No answer.
                1. 0
                  3 August 2019 20: 48
                  Do not pick about the patient, this is sloppiness. request
                  1. +1
                    3 August 2019 22: 01
                    Fires at enterprises of the defense industry, for example, burned down a workshop for the production of printed circuit boards. Is it sloppiness? Through the fence from the assembly shop of the "Sarmat" ICBMs, they burned to the top and smoked even more heavily at the Biryusa refrigerator warehouse. What happened to the filters in the assembly shop and how much and how much it resulted. This is also nothing more than slovenliness. Look how dramatically the number of sloppiness has grown after the 14th year. To flood, in principle, a dock that is not flooded during normal operation, and even with a "Kuznetsov" inside, which they barely managed to withdraw ... well, exactly - sloppiness. How did Stanislavsky shout to Nemirovich-Danchenko there? "I do not believe!"
                    1. +2
                      4 August 2019 00: 23
                      No one will officially confirm the sabotage, everything will be like with the Kursk ... this is politics - the art of the possible.
                2. 0
                  3 August 2019 21: 00
                  In the north, it seems that only the modernization of the "Orlans" will be, which is not bad either. And aircraft carriers will be built either in St. Petersburg, or (for the future) in Bolshoy Kamen. In St. Petersburg, they may start with UDC, and there they will go as a suit. Icebreakers will not disturb - this is another slipway and other dock.
          3. 0
            12 August 2019 22: 12
            I am very sorry that I belatedly express my opinion. So you said non-nuclear. I do not agree. In the light of the successes that Rosatom is achieving, it is quite possible in this displacement of 40 to 45 k. T. Put atomic ones. An EM catapult on such a ship is desirable, and an atom will better cope with this.
            1. 0
              13 August 2019 01: 37
              Our Rosatom is making great strides, but for a given ship (in this displacement) it will be more rational to use a gas turbine power plant.
              Will explain .
              A nuclear power plant is a nuclear double-circuit STEAM boiler, steam turbines (usually two), steam refrigerators / condensers, structural and radiation protection systems, operational complexity and high qualifications of full-time nuclear engineers ... In general, it is VERY expensive (NPP), difficult , GROMOZDKO and carries a certain radiation hazard (after all, this is a combat ship, and anything can happen during service). In addition, the only advantage of such a power plant is "unlimited cruising range", very conditional. The autonomy of the ship is determined not only by the availability of fuel, but also food, fresh drinking water, spare parts and other consumables, the need for periodic change / rotation of the crew. And if so, then during the replenishment of water, fuel for the aircraft fleet, aircraft wing ammunition, food and other consumables, the ship may well carry out refueling for its power plant. Right on the high seas, as our fleet regularly did and does.

              At the same time, gas turbine power plants will be MUCH more compact, many times cheaper, will not require high-class nuclear engineers for their operation, will not carry the threat of nuclear contamination in the event of an accident, and it will take significantly less time to build a ship with such a power plant .. . and money.

              And for powering the EM catapult, you can use turbo-generators based on the same gas turbines, which will be turned on only during and to ensure flights. They will take up little space, and the ship’s construction will not be complicated at all.

              Believe me, for more than a decade, a number of very serious American fleet analysts have been advocating the abandonment of monstrous nuclear aircraft carriers in favor of medium-displacement aircraft carriers on conventional power plants, listing all the disadvantages of nuclear-powered Nimitzes and depicting the merits of moderate-displacement ships. Including for economic reasons, but still mainly by emphasizing combat effectiveness, operational flexibility and sufficiency in combat capabilities.
              But in the US Navy, the lobby of the builders of large ships is won over by common sense, and I personally am very pleased about this.
              1. 0
                13 August 2019 02: 14
                I always believed that modern reactors are not bulky and their full life cycle is cheaper than others, due to low secondary costs. Yes, and the fact that the qualifications of the power plant staff may be less in doubt. The atom just took a step in development. I think in about 10 years it will be possible to think about ships of 15 tons of displacement with nuclear power plants. The power ratio of ships must be done with a margin. And it is not a matter of autonomy but the energy supply of promising weapons systems. I agree with the opinion that 120 tt Displacement is best implemented in three ships and not in one. But I think energy should be kept at the maximum.
                1. 0
                  13 August 2019 02: 49
                  Yes, there have already been attempts to put nuclear power plants on parades of moderate displacement, including commercial ones. Not justified - unprofitable.
                  You understand that a steam turbine is much heavier than a gas turbine + a nuclear reactor with a heat exchanger + radiation and structural protection ... This eats up a fair amount of displacement. Therefore, such a power plant with the required power will be MUCH heavier and larger than a similar power plant on gas turbines.
                  For gas turbine engines on turbines, turbines and a running gear are needed. For a power plant for a given ship in 40 000 - 50 000 tons, a power of approximately 180 000 l / s is required. - that is, six gas turbines with an output of 27500 l / s (this is exactly the capacity of the turbines mastered by our industry to equip the frigates of the 22350 project). Two more turbines, possibly of less power, will be required for the turbogenerators to power the EM catapults.

                  And don't be confused by the number of turbines. Missile cruisers of the Atlant type also had six such (gas) turbines, and two more steam turbines, powered by steam generators that utilized the gas jet from gas turbines - to increase efficiency. But the displacement of the Atlantis is about 11000 tons.

                  So gas-turbine power plants are the lightest, most compact and most powerful. And at times cheaper than nuclear power plants. Otherwise, the Americans would build their destroyers and cruisers on a nuclear course, but they build on the GT.
                  The whole economy of this issue has long been calculated, all the pros and cons have long been weighed and evaluated ... NPPs are justified only for ships of very large displacement with very high energy consumption, and in the case of American aircraft carriers, mainly because of the need for powerful steam generators for steam catapults, which were supposed to provide 200 launches per day. Such a performance without loss of travel could then be ensured only by nuclear power plants ... But then there were still no gas turbines on ships and electro-magnetic catapults.
                  1. 0
                    13 August 2019 08: 42
                    Fuel reserves in the weight and dimension of the power plant did not forget to add? There was an interesting article here a couple of years ago. And on the EM catapult, you need a lot of energy. But I will not argue.
                    1. 0
                      13 August 2019 12: 03
                      The fuel is in the bottom tanks, but even accounting for its weight in general does not give the advantage of a nuclear power plant in terms of weight and even volume. And the main problems of such a power plant are the complexity of operation and the PRICE. And also the time of construction.
                      Look at the French "Charles de Gaulle" and all the torments of its exploitation - this is a very illustrative example. And the French made their conclusions about the future of such ships long ago.

                      We need reliable ships at a reasonable price, which can be built in series. Gas turbine power plants do not bear any special technical risks, have a reasonable price, and do not bear the risks of radioactive contamination. And they can be built quite quickly, especially if it will be a series.
                      And let the nuclear power plants remain for the nuclear submarines, icebreakers and civilian energy.
  4. +2
    1 August 2019 07: 27
    I agree with the conclusions of the author and with the logic of the article. I will only correct it, the USSR had a carrier-based attack aircraft. On the basis of the Su-25 made a ship version. Su-25 UTG released in the amount of 12 pieces. It is clear that there was a training aircraft, and not a combat one, but, as far as I know, there were no fundamental problems for wetting the Su-25. Initially, the usual Su-25 was checked at the ground complex.
  5. -6
    1 August 2019 08: 57
    The Soviet "Ulyanovsk" and the American "Nimitz", although both nuclear-powered aircraft carriers, are so different, because the aircraft carriers of the "Nimitz" series were made in metal and in total 10 aircraft carriers were built, including the last "George Bush", and the Soviet series of aircraft carriers " Ulyanovsk "was made in cardboard, and then there was only enough cardboard for the model of the lead ship of the series.
    It was always interesting to what extent such articles cause laughter in similar foreign forums? Asia, America, Europe - are they laughing in the same way at such "virtual" analyzes in topwar.ru, or is the Chinese audience neighing loudest?
  6. -1
    1 August 2019 09: 04
    All this, of course, is curious and informative, but this is a purely theoretical story. But in practice, it is necessary, as soon as possible, to put into operation "Kuzya", with "Nakhimov", having carried out the maximum possible modernization and put into the capital "Petya", with even greater modernization.
  7. 0
    1 August 2019 09: 11
    The Ulyanovsk ATAKR turned out to be significantly less than the Nimitz - 65 800 T against 81 600 T, despite the fact that later the American aircraft carriers of this series “grew up” by about 10 000 T. Accordingly, the Soviet ship cost less, and that when making such Leviathans certainly mattered.

    I do not agree with the author. Soviet aircraft carriers were much more expensive than American ones. For these bourgeois, labor productivity was unattainable for the USSR. This is clearly seen on the example of the construction of modern aircraft carriers. And the difference in displacement does not play a role here at all.
    1. +1
      1 August 2019 11: 28
      labor productivity was unattainable for the USSR

      But the cost of the same labor was significantly lower. So it is mutual and compensated. At the Chinese, this is also not brilliant, but nothing, somehow coping.
      1. -1
        1 August 2019 11: 29
        Quote: MooH
        labor productivity was unattainable for the USSR

        But the cost of the same labor was significantly lower. So it is mutual and compensated.

        ... but the number of workers was many times greater. 40 000 people worked at ChSZ alone.
        1. +5
          1 August 2019 11: 32
          So the state’s policy was such, the right to work and all that. It was quite possible to increase labor productivity and 30 percent to fire nafig, but who in the USSR needed the unemployed?
          1. +1
            1 August 2019 11: 41
            Quote: MooH
            So the state’s policy was such, the right to work and all that. It was quite possible to increase labor productivity and 30 percent to fire nafig, but who in the USSR needed the unemployed?

            Under socialism, it is impossible to significantly increase labor productivity. Hold it like that. And I visited the construction of Ulyanovsk personally. Not many loafers stumbled along the slipway, but they walked around the factory in crowds. As a result, Soviet products were not competitive. Neither in quality nor in price. Lada did not fill up the world. The world was inundated with German Volkswagen and Japanese Toyota.
            1. +3
              1 August 2019 11: 52
              Lada did not fill up, but the Muscovite and Volga at first very well sold. And the Niva and UAZ are still sold and operated in places where highax is too long or expensive. However, the automotive industry, and in general consumer goods, have never been our strong point, but the machines, diesel locomotives, tractors, combines were very good. This is if you do not remember about the AK Mi and other armored objects.
              And one more nuance, we no longer believe in fair competition in the capitalist world, we’ve seen enough already, and accordingly the USSR has not had a chance to overwhelm the world with anything at all throughout its history. First, an Englishwoman crap, then all sorts of jackson with brooms :))
              1. -4
                1 August 2019 12: 50
                Quote: MooH
                Lada did not fill up, but the Muscovite and Volga at first very well sold. And the Niva and UAZ are still sold and operated in places where highax is too long or expensive. However, the automotive industry, and in general consumer goods, have never been our strong point, but the machines, diesel locomotives, tractors, combines were very good. This is if you do not remember about the AK Mi and other armored objects.

                Another tale. It is impossible to compare the number of sold Volkswagen and all Soviet cars taken together. Machines were bought by those who could not afford normal machines. This is happening today with Chinese machine tools. They are bought by those who do not have funds for Japanese, Swiss, German and American machines. Harvesters are generally a different story. They persistently strove to break, and when they worked, they left on the field not a small fraction of the crop. No wonder, under socialism, the quality of the goods does not matter. All the same, the consumer will take the goods from you. There was no alternative.

                Quote: MooH
                And one more nuance, we no longer believe in fair competition in the capitalist world, we’ve seen enough already, and accordingly the USSR has not had a chance to overwhelm the world with anything at all throughout its history. First, an Englishwoman crap, then all sorts of jackson with brooms :))

                Always at the scoop someone was to blame for his troubles. Either enemies of the people, now the weather, then the bourgeois. It's just that the system is basically flawed.
                1. +7
                  1 August 2019 13: 12
                  Always at the scoop someone was to blame for his troubles. Either enemies of the people, now the weather, then the bourgeois. It's just that the system is basically flawed.

                  Arguments ended, value judgments were used :) so I abstained from the plus sign.
                  I will answer your style. How did it happen that the flawed system for 50 for two years in a row rose from the ruins and kicked asses to the leaders of capitalist production?
                  1. -5
                    1 August 2019 20: 17
                    Quote: MooH
                    Arguments ended, value judgments were used :) so I abstained from the plus sign.

                    I have a lot of arguments.

                    http://ej.ru/?a=note&id=34020

                    Quote: MooH
                    I will answer your style. How did it happen that the flawed system for 50 for two years in a row rose from the ruins and kicked asses to the leaders of capitalist production?

                    Are you talking about overwhelming corpses, the Gulag and other delights of the Soviet method of achieving goals?
                    1. +5
                      1 August 2019 20: 53
                      I read diagonally the first half of the article you proposed, the analysis is extremely in-depth, Kaptsov with his armadillos is a god compared to the author of that stupid agitation. Somehow I did not expect such a fit from you. Of course you are prone to some drifts :) but a link to this article as an argument about the vitality of communism / socialism does not honor you.
                      Are you talking about overwhelming corpses, the Gulag and other delights of the Soviet method of achieving goals?

                      Did Gagarin climb into corpses through space, or was he launched from the Gulag by a big slingshot?
                      16 years after the war and the destruction of 90% of the economy?
                      1. 0
                        2 August 2019 12: 39
                        Quote: MooH
                        I read diagonally the first half of the article you proposed, the analysis is extremely in-depth, Kaptsov with his armadillos is a god compared to the author of that stupid agitation. Somehow I did not expect such a fit from you. Of course you are prone to some drifts :) but a link to this article as an argument about the vitality of communism / socialism does not honor you.

                        And you do not read diagonally and try to refute.

                        Quote: MooH
                        Did Gagarin climb into corpses through space, or was he launched from the Gulag by a big slingshot?

                        At the first man in outer space, the Bolsheviks arrested his family, and his neighbors took off his pants. Do not believe it, but in order for Armstrong to set foot on the moon in the USA, they did not take away passports from farmers and shot their citizens on denunciations.

                        Quote: MooH
                        16 years after the war and the destruction of 90% of the economy?

                        Well? At the same time, they dressed and shod the country or threw all the money for one project?
                      2. +1
                        3 August 2019 20: 00
                        At the first man in outer space, the Bolsheviks arrested his family, and his neighbors took off his pants. Do not believe it, but in order for Armstrong to set foot on the moon in the USA, they did not take away passports from farmers and shot their citizens by denunciation
                        м.
                        Could you give more details about how the Bolsheviks arrested the family of cosmonaut Leonov?
                        Why believe it.
                        And you believe that their citizens of the United States were dispersed by tanks.
                        Well? At the same time, they dressed and shod the country or threw all the money for one project?

                        What are your suggestions?
                        The situation is like this. The house you lived in was badly damaged during the fire. Many things burned, clothes, furniture, products. Fortunately, you have a little stash and work. You have two ways. First, you buy a chic costume, buy exotic food, and begin to tell all the neighbors that everything is fine with you, you will rebuild the house, even better than before. Second way. You begin to make repairs at home, you do not buy new clothes, since you work on the ashes. You don’t buy black caviar and 200 summer wine, you need to save money so that there would be money for repairs. By severely restricting yourself, you rebuild the house, and then buy new clothes and good food.
                        By some strange coincidence, countries that first rebuild their home quickly can afford good clothes and food.
                        But countries that have decided to splurge, make a fortune find themselves in poverty and owe it to their neighbors.
                      3. -1
                        4 August 2019 08: 42
                        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                        Could you give more details about how the Bolsheviks arrested the family of cosmonaut Leonov?



                        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                        And you believe that their citizens of the United States were dispersed by tanks.

                        Of course. For example in Detroit. Just let's clarify for what and whom.

                        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                        What are your suggestions?
                        The situation is like this. The house you lived in was badly damaged during the fire. Many things burned, clothes, furniture, products. Fortunately, you have a little stash and work. You have two ways. First, you buy a chic costume, buy exotic food, and begin to tell all the neighbors that everything is fine with you, you will rebuild the house, even better than before. Second way. You begin to make repairs at home, you do not buy new clothes, since you work on the ashes. You don’t buy black caviar and 200 summer wine, you need to save money so that there would be money for repairs. By severely restricting yourself, you rebuild the house, and then buy new clothes and good food.
                        By some strange coincidence, countries that first rebuild their home quickly can afford good clothes and food.
                        But countries that have decided to splurge, make a fortune find themselves in poverty and owe it to their neighbors.

                        After the fire, it was necessary to patch the roof and put on the children, and not throw a party at the window dress so that everyone could see how cool we were. In the villages of my parents in 1961, there was not even electricity, not to mention the roads.
                      4. 0
                        6 August 2019 09: 52
                        I asked "how did the Bolsheviks arrest the family of cosmonaut Leonov?"
                        At that time, Leonov was not an astronaut.

                        The hunger riot.
                        Then there was a witch hunt (communists)
                        Now the United States is the first country in prison.

                        So actually they did the roof.
                      5. +1
                        6 August 2019 09: 58
                        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                        I asked "how did the Bolsheviks arrest the family of cosmonaut Leonov?"
                        At that time, Leonov was not an astronaut.

                        While he was in space, his family was not arrested and his pants (literally) were not removed. It changes everything.

                        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                        The hunger riot.
                        Then there was a witch hunt (communists)
                        Now the United States is the first country in prison.

                        And they didn’t think of their gulag. Bundles of people were not shot. Passports (freedom of movement) were not taken from millions. Did not see the deficit.

                        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                        Now the United States is the first country in prison.

                        How many watered prisoners are there? And the fact that thieves are in prison there, and not in power structures is normal.
                      6. 0
                        17 August 2019 12: 35
                        While he was in space, his family was not arrested and his pants (literally) were not removed. It changes everything.

                        That's exactly what changes.
                        And they didn’t think of their gulag. Bundles of people were not shot. Passports (freedom of movement) were not taken from millions. Did not see the deficit.
                        People worked for food. "you have no democracy - then we go to you." When did the Soviet state take the passports of millions of citizens? In the 30s we saw it. When they began to struggle with abundance.

                        How many watered prisoners are there? And the fact that thieves are in prison there, and not in power structures is normal.

                        The country is the first in terms of economy, the first in the world in terms of universal values, the country is the pillar of peace, good and order, and suddenly there are a bunch of thieves. It’s strange somehow.
                2. 0
                  2 August 2019 06: 03
                  Of course, under socialism, the quality of the product did not matter, the current carton sausage of the "g" category is much better than the Soviet meat grade 3. this is just one example. and now it is your turn to give an example of a quality capitalist product of domestic production
              2. +2
                1 August 2019 15: 18
                Jackson-Venik received not at all from scratch.
                1. +1
                  1 August 2019 15: 40
                  I deliberately wrote in small letters without a hyphen and with a smile, so that it is clear that I do not mean the Jackson-Venik amendment, but the systemic restrictions of the Soviet Union’s foreign trade, which in one form or another have been in effect for the entire period of its existence. And they continue to operate to this day, although in the current state, our country is hardly able to threaten Honduras and certainly not the NATO bloc.
                  Remember how they didn’t sell us Opel in a successful 2010?
                2. 0
                  1 August 2019 23: 00
                  Quote: Oleg Zorin
                  Jackson-Venik received not at all from scratch.

                  So they would impose sanctions against America and not sell them high-tech products. Accelerating the death of capitalism
                  1. 0
                    3 August 2019 14: 08
                    According to the script, should I laugh here?
    2. +4
      1 August 2019 12: 56
      The complexity of the construction of a serial aircraft carrier of the "Nimitz" type is about 40 million man-hours. The labor intensity of construction of the lead aircraft carrier "Gerald Ford" is about 50 million man-hours.

      "The planned labor intensity of the ship 1143.5 increased against 1143.4 by 30% and amounted to almost 30 million hours."
      1. -8
        1 August 2019 13: 05
        Quote: AlexanderA
        The complexity of the construction of a serial aircraft carrier of the "Nimitz" type is about 40 million man-hours. The labor intensity of construction of the lead aircraft carrier "Gerald Ford" is about 50 million man-hours.

        "The planned labor intensity of the ship 1143.5 increased against 1143.4 by 30% and amounted to almost 30 million hours."

        1. Where did the firewood come from?
        2. And how much was actual and not "planned"?
        1. +3
          1 August 2019 13: 11
          Firewood from here:

          https://e-libra.ru/read/191677-avianosec.html

          And from here:

          https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-navy-carrier/u-s-navy-pledges-cost-cuts-as-it-christens-new-aircraft-carrier-idUSBRE9A413E20131105

          And where are your firewood about the highest productivity in American shipbuilders?
          1. -3
            1 August 2019 13: 33
            Quote: AlexanderA
            Firewood from here:

            https://e-libra.ru/read/191677-avianosec.html

            I read this book. About real costs it is not indicated.

            Quote: AlexanderA
            https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-navy-carrier/u-s-navy-pledges-cost-cuts-as-it-christens-new-aircraft-carrier-idUSBRE9A413E20131105

            hi
            According to Moore, despite the much greater complexity of the new ships, the construction of the next ship in this class, USS Enterprise, will require about 40 million man-hours. About the same amount was required for the construction of Nimitz class aircraft carriers.

            Quote: AlexanderA
            And where are your firewood about the highest productivity in American shipbuilders?

            About the "highest" I did not speak. Just about high. The newport shipyard employs 20 people. They lower one aircraft carrier at a time of 000 years. ChSZ employed 4 people. It was planned to launch the steamer 40 years after the laying.

            Building a Virginia-type submarine is another example of high productivity.
            1. +1
              1 August 2019 15: 19
              About the "highest" I did not speak. Just about high. The newport shipyard employs 20 people. They lower one aircraft carrier at a time of 000 years. ChSZ employed 4 people. It was planned to launch the steamer 40 years after the laying.


              It was the highest when the world's first nuclear-powered aircraft carrier Enterprise was built from laying to commissioning in less than 4 years (bookmarked February 4, 1958, commissioned November 25, 1961).

              And the head Gerald Ford was built for more than 7 years (bookmarked on November 13, 2009, commissioned on July 22, 2017).

              "Admiral Kuznetsov"? Bookmarked on September 1, 1982, commissioned January 20, 1991 - 8 years. "Ulyanovsk" was planned to be built in 7 years.

              It is planned to increase the number of workers at Newport News Shipbuilding from 20 to 25 thousand people:

              https://www.dailyprogress.com/business/newport-news-shipbuilding-to-hire-workers-with-state-s-help/article_a7197b80-7967-11e8-b129-9b5c835e17c4.html

              https://ukraina.ru/exclusive/20180109/1019747092.html

              "The Black Sea Shipyard employed 24 thousand people."
              1. -3
                1 August 2019 19: 25
                Quote: AlexanderA
                It was the highest when the world's first nuclear-powered aircraft carrier Enterprise was built from laying to commissioning in less than 4 years (bookmarked February 4, 1958, commissioned November 25, 1961).

                It was highest when they built ships for Lendliz.

                Quote: AlexanderA
                "The Black Sea Shipyard employed 24 thousand people."

                Despite the fact that 40 000 people worked on it.
                1. +2
                  1 August 2019 19: 50
                  Quote: professor
                  Despite the fact that 40 000 people worked on it.


                  You are using data from a wikipedia article. I, from the print press.

                  http://www.aif.ru/society/history/flot_dlya_sverhderzhavy_kak_umer_glavnyy_centr_sudostroeniya_sssr

                  "At the end of the Soviet era, more than 24 thousand people worked at the Black Sea shipbuilding plant, more than 61 thousand at the 13 Communards plant, and over 12 thousand at the Ocean. Workers were trained by vocational schools and technical schools, engineering - by the Nikolaev Shipbuilding Institute."

                  At the same time at the Black Sea Shipyard, for example, from 74th to 93rd year, a series of 113 freezer supertrawlers of project 1288 ("Pulkovsky Meridian") with a displacement of 5720 tons each was built. I don’t remember building super trawlers at Newport News Shipbuilding.
              2. 0
                1 August 2019 20: 03
                I think the dependence of the number of people on the time of launching in Russia is not applicable. There are about 26000 people at Sevmash. So what? "Dolgoruky", "Nevsky", "Monomakh", "Severodvinsk", and if counting from the moment of laying, then four nuclear submarines in more than 15 years (correct if you lied where)
                1. +1
                  1 August 2019 20: 44
                  Quote: Zvyaga
                  There are about 26000 people at Sevmash. So what? "Dolgoruky", "Nevsky", "Monomakh", "Severodvinsk", and if the countdown is carried out from the moment of laying, then four nuclear submarines in more than 15 years (correct if you lied where


                  For 15 years "Sevmash" has sent military products to the sea:

                  Aircraft carrier Vikramaditya ("it was easier to build a new one" (C))
                  RPKSN K-535 "Yuri Dolgoruky"
                  RPKSN K-550 "Alexander Nevsky"
                  SSBN K-551 "Vladimir Monomakh"
                  RPKSN K-549 "Prince Vladimir"
                  MPLATRK K-560 Severodvinsk
                  MPLATRK K-561 Kazan
                  AGS AS-31
                  DEPL 374 Yuan Zhend 74 Hao
                  DEPL 375 Yuan Zhend 75 Hao

                  10 units

                  For comparison, the General Dynamics Electric Boat, the number of employees over 14 thousand people, over the past 15 years has sent to sea:

                  SSN-23 Jimmy Carter
                  SSN-774 Virginia
                  SSN-776 Hawaii
                  SSN-778 New Hampshire
                  SSN-780 Missouri
                  SSN-782 Mississippi
                  SSN-784 North Dakota
                  SSN-786 Illinois
                  SSN-788 Colorado
                  SSN-790 South Dakota

                  10 units
                  1. 0
                    2 August 2019 21: 59
                    Prince Vladimir and Kazan were not transferred to the fleet. forgot about the bailout
          2. -2
            2 August 2019 06: 05
            he has firewood from the phony regional committee, he earns a part-time campaign.
  8. 0
    1 August 2019 09: 19
    Yeah ... we open the map and look: where are the possible theaters of operations at a distance from the airfields, where will American AUG need to be drowned?
    1. +2
      1 August 2019 09: 36
      Pacific Ocean
      1. -3
        1 August 2019 09: 46
        And in what conceivable situation? The war with the United States with the neutrality of China?
        1. 0
          1 August 2019 11: 28
          And you probably don’t know why the fleet is needed at all? Remember the history of the Navy and immediately it becomes clear
          1. 0
            1 August 2019 13: 05
            In the era of great geographical discoveries, the goals and objectives of the fleet were somewhat different than in the era of victorious capitalism and a divided world. The world is changing over time.
            1. +2
              1 August 2019 17: 23
              The goals and objectives of the Navy have remained the same since their inception. Everything else is secondary
    2. +3
      1 August 2019 18: 52
      Quote: Sancho_SP
      Yeah ... we open the map and look: where are the possible theaters of operations at a distance from the airfields, where will American AUG need to be drowned?

      Northern Fleet. And do not drown enemy AUGs, but to shield your ship forces from their attacks.
      For example, the task of covering the SSBN deployment areas forces ship groups to operate at a distance of 500-600 km from the nearest airfield. With such a distance, the reserve of coastal fighters will only have time to approach the covered group when enemy fighters are already fired at.
  9. +3
    1 August 2019 09: 42
    Before starting any disputes, it is necessary to determine the main thing ... Our military doctrine ... and from it the tasks of the Armed Forces and Navy follow ... tasks are respectively solved by certain complexes of weapons and equipment ...
    Colleagues (I hope there are enough military on the site with the level of operational / strategic training) ... and why should we need an aircraft carrier (big small, etc.) ... for what tasks do we need? ... It is just a question ...
    1. -4
      1 August 2019 09: 47
      The fact of the matter is that it is not needed. At its cost, it is easier to arrange a revolution in some sort of Cuba or Venezuela and put that airfield with a rocket launcher.
      1. +5
        1 August 2019 09: 54
        Why do you need a revolution in Cuba?
        1. -2
          1 August 2019 10: 06
          The existing regime under the United States caved in. In the words of Leo Tolstoy, of course, but in reality they will not be allowed to place atomic weapons there.
          1. +7
            1 August 2019 10: 27
            Quote: Sancho_SP
            The current regime under the US caved

            And besides slogans and chants, why do you still need a revolution in Cuba?
            1. -6
              1 August 2019 13: 06
              So read the second sentence of the same post.
              1. +7
                1 August 2019 13: 11
                Create a revolution in Cuba in order to deploy nuclear missiles ??? Super enchanting !!! For less money, place these missiles in Chukotka, willow cover the entire territory of the United States. Moreover, who do you want to see in Cuba at the helm as a result of the revolution ??
                1. -5
                  1 August 2019 14: 15
                  Yes, in general, I do not care who will be there. I said that it would be cheaper to arrange a revolution there (or otherwise solve the issue of deploying rocket technology) than to build even one aircraft carrier. And the effect will be even greater.
          2. +1
            1 August 2019 15: 20
            Do they need it?
    2. +3
      1 August 2019 09: 53
      Quote: silberwolf88
      I hope the site has enough military with the level of operational / strategic training

      How about this?
      1. -1
        1 August 2019 19: 38
        Academy and VUS with 1 at the end))
        1. +2
          2 August 2019 07: 32
          Quote: silberwolf88
          Academy and VUS with 1 at the end

          what After graduating from the academy and the VUS with 1, at the end you ask a question
          Quote: silberwolf88
          and an aircraft carrier (big small, etc.), why do we need it ... to solve what problems do we need?

          And what do they teach in academies right now? recourse
          1. 0
            2 August 2019 13: 00
            You are really cool ... yes, during the time of Gareev, discussions on doctrine and application plans were commonplace ...
            In my purely personal opinion ... according to the existing Doctrine ... aircraft carriers are not needed ...
            When changing the Doctrine (we consider, for example, the case of Syria) ... it is necessary to clearly state the cases of military support for the interests of Russia and its allies anywhere in the World (Russia defends interests using conventional and nuclear weapons in cases ...) ... then the need is clear ... but this is not doctrinally supported ... hence all the questions ... and perhaps the problems of an integrated approach to the development of the Navy in this
            Well, if you need it ... then an aircraft carrier with only a nuclear power plant ... 80% of the tanker is inappropriate here ... you need high autonomy and non-volatility
            1. +2
              2 August 2019 13: 55
              NPP is expensive and small.
              The war at sea was won not by the "shock troops", but by the "escorts". Both conversion and special construction. Day after day they sank submarines, shot down torpedo bombers and bombers, and provided transportation. and the drummers (without belittling their role) are the trump cards of ocean battles.
              Why is it urgent to "flip the card table" - artificial intelligence appeared, comparable to the brain of an insect. There is no longer a need for a super-complicated plane and an over-trained pilot. In addition, the issue of fatigue and overload restrictions (not in terms of design) is removed. And the main thing is the mass character of the air group.
              Now interceptors, attack aircraft, tankers - all can be drones with artificial intelligence (aerial robots). Only special aircraft such as AWACS and VKP, and maybe anti-submarine ones, will be inhabited complexes.
              So, these conditions allow you to start the race of naval aviation weapons, as it were, from scratch. For this reason, the more and cheaper we rivet floating airfields, mainly for aerial robots, the higher our chances of an impending collision.
              It must be borne in mind that during the latent phase of the outbreak of hostilities, an operation will be carried out against space reconnaissance and communications systems, which will blind the participants in the conflict and force them to act on the patterns of World War II. Those. whoever lifts more aircraft into the air and whose means will hang there longer, will win at sea, and this will largely determine the success of the invasion and the logistics of operations.
              At the same time, if the aircraft carrier is refused the role of the flagship, then the control center can be located anywhere: on a cruiser, control ship, CPSU disarmed from the strategic arsenal of the submarine. It will be difficult to calculate and destroy.
              Of considerable importance in this embodiment is the speed of flooding of the aircraft carrier (and hence the size). it is necessary that under the influence of non-nuclear charges it retains buoyancy for as long as possible and can release its aircraft for the operation of retaliation or relocation.
              1. 0
                2 August 2019 18: 54
                Your logic is clear ... although it is not close to me ...
                in my opinion, the quick and complete destruction of all command posts (there are not so many of them) by the Vanguards would be more effective ... because without control the Troops will not solve the problems (and any aircraft carriers too)
            2. +2
              2 August 2019 14: 43
              Quote: silberwolf88
              You are really cool

              laughing This is yes, I’m very pleased
              Quote: silberwolf88
              according to the existing Doctrine ... aircraft carriers are not needed ...

              Specifically, according to the existing yes, they are not needed, but you understand that the Doctrine as a woman is prone to changes! Currently, according to the Doctrine, the fleet is being saturated with BMZ and DMZ ships. But the Doctrine is not a dogma, therefore, it does not prohibit design and tactical-technical research on promising AV.
              Quote: silberwolf88
              then an aircraft carrier only with a nuclear power plant

              The issue under discussion, the more industry has learned to make more powerful and compact reactors.
              1. 0
                2 August 2019 18: 56
                Ok ... just a difference in positions ... I'd rather put more effort into rockets))
                1. +2
                  3 August 2019 07: 08
                  Quote: silberwolf88
                  I'd rather put more effort into rockets))

                  This has already passed, GLORY TO COMRADE Khrushchev !!! AND COMRADE USTINOV !!!!
    3. +2
      1 August 2019 13: 01
      Are you familiar with the tasks that fighter aircraft are designed to solve in the sky above the continental theater? If you are familiar, can you tell us how these tasks differ from the tasks that fighter aircraft are designed to solve in the sky above sea and ocean theater?
      1. +2
        1 August 2019 13: 13
        Quote: AlexanderA
        Do you know

        Is this a question for me?
        1. +1
          1 August 2019 13: 17
          The question to silverwolf88 asking the question "and the aircraft carrier (large small, etc.) do we need it ... for what tasks do we need it?"

          An aircraft carrier is needed for jet fighters. Why jet fighters are needed I hope to hear an answer from silverwolf88.
      2. -1
        1 August 2019 19: 43
        Alexander, and you always have a question-to-question manner ... read again what I ask my colleagues ... lectures on TVD tasks are not appropriate here anymore they read them to me at the beginning of the zero ... teachers educated on the tasks of the USSR (believe me this is different)
        if there is nothing to answer my initial post ... then just go ahead
        1. +1
          1 August 2019 20: 55
          Quote: silberwolf88
          aircraft carrier (big small, etc.) why do we need it


          The aircraft carrier is needed for multi-role fighters and aircraft RLDN.

          I can write why we need multi-role fighters and aircraft RLDN. First of all, to capture and maintain superiority in the air at the theater. In the event that the first task is to be solved, multi-role fighters are needed to perform strike missions. Whether it is a continental theater of war, or maritime / oceanic, does not matter.
          1. -1
            2 August 2019 00: 25
            why do we need aviation understandably ...
            and what tasks can an aircraft carrier provide outside of Russia ...
            1. +2
              2 August 2019 15: 11
              Quote: silberwolf88
              what tasks can an aircraft carrier provide outside of Russia

              Provision of air defense of the 5 th OPESk, provision of air defense of the Aleutian ridge region, provision of air defense along the Nordkap-Svalbard line.
              Or not?
              1. +1
                2 August 2019 18: 48
                I wouldn’t cover the near-deployment areas with aircraft carriers ... maybe this can be solved by improving the mainland infrastructure ... the task of an aircraft carrier (aircraft carrier group) is to cover troops on other people's theater of operations ... invading ... or defending interests (flag demonstration) in any point of the world
                1. +2
                  3 August 2019 07: 12
                  Quote: silberwolf88
                  the task of an aircraft carrier (aircraft carrier group) covering troops on other people's theater of operations ... invasion ... or defending interests (demonstration of a flag) anywhere in the World

                  Strange, you think in terms of chiefs of staff of the United States and vague doubts torment me!
                  Quote: silberwolf88
                  I wouldn’t cover the near-deployment areas with aircraft carriers

                  what You definitely graduated from the academy?
                  Than you will cover from the coast the area located at a distance of 500-600 km. off the coastline?
                  1. -1
                    3 August 2019 09: 52
                    The dialogue does not work))
                    But since I did not see such logic in the plans for the deployment and use of forces on theater of operations (professionals and pragmatists work in GOU, schools do not listen to them) I think you have never been involved in strategic planning))
                    1. +3
                      3 August 2019 11: 15
                      Quote: silberwolf88
                      But since I did not see such logic in the plans for the deployment and use of forces on the theater

                      What kind of logic is it? Deployment of SSBNs. How was your logic going to provide?
                      How does logic prescribe the protection of ships of the Russian Navy in the anchorage of the Mediterranean Sea?
                      And finally, how will this logic solve the problem of force removal of launch areas of the Tomahawk KR?
                      Quote: silberwolf88
                      I can’t get a dialogue

                      Of course it doesn’t work .... you are in the place of common phrases, try to express your thoughts on this issue!
                      Quote: silberwolf88
                      you have never been involved in strategic planning))

                      I am involved in the implementation of the results of strategic planning and these results are very often provoked .. how to say ... DEEP CONCERN for the strategic military thought of higher headquarters organizations!
                    2. +2
                      3 August 2019 12: 33
                      Quote: silberwolf88
                      The dialogue does not work))
                      But since I did not see such logic in the plans for the deployment and use of forces on theater of operations (professionals and pragmatists work in GOU, schools do not listen to them) I think you have never been involved in strategic planning))

                      Failed staffer? The tongue is how you need to hold your thoughts aloud. If everyone here reveals who did what, then you will look pale. hi
                      1. 0
                        3 August 2019 14: 33
                        Well, it's not for you to evaluate me ... and I'm not afraid to look pale at all))) ... I was lucky with the tasks and their implementation ...
                  2. 0
                    5 September 2019 08: 04
                    If on land the best air defense is your tank at the enemy’s airfield, then at sea the best cover for the area at a distance of 500-600 km is the destruction of an enemy aircraft carrier that has come so close to our coast.
  10. -5
    1 August 2019 10: 15
    ATAKR Ulyanovsk, despite its smaller size, was able to solve airspace control issues, perhaps better than a single AUG, led by an aircraft carrier of the Nimitz class

    Andrey, I completely agree (!)
    * not even add an article
  11. kig
    +3
    1 August 2019 10: 50
    What is the main difference between Nimitz and Ulyanovsk? The first one swims across the seas and oceans, and the second ... alas.
  12. -1
    1 August 2019 11: 38
    Quote: professor
    For these bourgeois, labor productivity was unattainable for the USSR

    stop talking nonsense about labor productivity
    all your arguments are based on false "arguments" that were erected with the help of discrepancies in the structure of GDP (for example, the USSR did not include prostitution in the GDP, as did the billions in commissions to intermediaries) and other calculations.
    any competent economist who has numbers at hand will give you exactly the return flow in half a day, where productivity in the USA and Europe will be several times lower than in the USSR

    it is not a question of productivity per se, it is a question of the methodology of counting and applying it in an ideological war. Stop fighting in this forum.
    I am somewhat involved in the comparison of productivity and I know that reports were regularly published in the USSR where approximate equality of productivity was noted in typical enterprises.
    The difference in productivity arose, for example, when 3 schools and 5 kindergartens, several dormitories, a rest house, a cultural center, a pioneer camp, etc. belonged to the plant. Well, yes, for some reason, performance has fallen.
    Do you understand? Stop absolutely demagogic and unprofessional agitation to repeat.
  13. exo
    +2
    1 August 2019 11: 54
    The difference in the crew is impressive: 3400 people. from "Ulyanovsk" and 5000 people. at the Nimitz.
    I wonder why the Americans abandoned the Viking? And in principle, the basing of a separate type of PLO aircraft (helicopters, we will not count) is not visible on the decks of aircraft carriers.
    Thanks for the article, Andrey!
    1. 0
      1 August 2019 13: 06
      The Nimitz are poorly automated ships. That is why such a huge crew and deck crew of the air wing. They abandoned the Viking for the sake of economy, since they decided that after the "victory in the Cold War" the dominance of the American Navy in the seas and oceans would not be threatened by the powerful submarine fleet of another power in the foreseeable historical perspective.
      1. 0
        1 August 2019 17: 45
        what are you trying to talk about-learn to read elementary literacy- "on this"
        1. 0
          1 August 2019 21: 01
          On the issue of the number of the Nimitz crew and the rejection of deck anti-submarine aircraft, there are no thoughts in the skull?

          PS Learn not to "poke" strangers, "be literate".
    2. +4
      1 August 2019 18: 59
      Quote: exo
      I wonder why the Americans abandoned the Viking?

      And that's why they abandoned the Tomkat and Intruder, unified the strike-fighter deck squadrons, armed them with F / A-18s, and reduced their number to four. No opponent, no money.
      With the collapse of the USSR, the threat from the SSGN and ICAPL disappeared - and the long-range PLO AB was not needed. They and AB anti-submarine wings, which were the standard version of their equipment in the Cold War, also disbanded.
      The threat from the Mrap with their Tu-22M3 and anti-ship missiles DD disappeared - the Tomcats were no longer needed. The budget was cut - it was necessary to reduce the variety of aircraft in the air wings and reduce their composition.
  14. -1
    1 August 2019 14: 07
    If you go back to the present, it is necessary to take into account a fundamental change in weapons systems - the appearance of drones that can hang in the air for days. As well as the appearance of the Su-57, which they see in two planes 360 mutually perpendicular along the axis of movement. Therefore, at the present stage, it is possible to completely assign all functions to the air wing, and not to equip ATACR with strike weapons. 4 Orion UAVs with an additional reconnaissance system, like the Outpost, will be able to provide control over the access restriction zone near the ATACR, which only needs anti-aircraft weapons of all ranges, starting with the S-500. The same missiles can be used as shock weapons at appropriate ranges.
  15. -6
    1 August 2019 14: 32
    unfortunately, the Tsushima lesson has not been learned so far, it was not necessary to build large surface ships, and they were not useful, the maintenance of the construction and aircraft carrier in Russia is pointless, we need coastal aviation, submarines, minesweepers
    1. +1
      1 August 2019 14: 37
      You should really go to Mussolini's headquarters. "Italy is an unsinkable aircraft carrier!"
      You forget about the response time and knowingly give the initiative to the enemy. At the same time, your defeat is a matter of competent planning of the enemy General Staff, and not your heroism, albeit unprecedented.
      1. -3
        1 August 2019 14: 42
        Russia needs only three aircraft carriers, Kamchatka, Crimea, Severomorsk, floating and sinking tubs we do not need.
        1. +4
          1 August 2019 14: 44
          Are the remaining potential areas of operations of the enemy naval and amphibious forces under the protection of China?
          1. 0
            1 August 2019 19: 12
            in the rest .... areas of the coastal strip of the Russian Federation are protected by impassable swamps, frost, hen, and the lack of roads and people (with the exception of single hunters and reindeer herders)
            1. 0
              2 August 2019 08: 58
              Therefore, poor helicopters and planes are there to grab and to grab. What about cities and bases in the coastal strip of the Russian Federation?
              1. 0
                2 August 2019 09: 54
                Since we decided to defend Petropavlovsk Kamchatsky and Murmansk by unsinkable aircraft carriers, do you mean Vladivostok and Arkhangelsk? there surely no floating abyssal pools AB will be needed, as well as in the sea through the Baltic and the Black Sea.
                1. 0
                  2 August 2019 10: 05
                  It would be much better if your unsinkable aircraft carriers Kamchatka and Severodvinsk (better Novaya Zemlya - it’s bigger) could operate in the ocean. And then Crimea is locked limited to the Black Sea.
                  As the practice of fighting in the Pacific Ocean has shown, a couple of aircraft carriers can be put forward on any island with a large airfield. And if two fail, then three, four - and keep supply ships replenishing the air group (or immediately move 4 AB).
                  So it will be with Vladivostok with Arkhangelsk, as well as Murmansk, Severodvinsk, Magadan. A pair of aircraft carriers strike, one works on the roads. Result - the base runs out of ammunition.
                  If you transfer reinforcements from neighboring bases, then the enemy is just attacking neighboring bases.
                  1. +1
                    2 August 2019 19: 36
                    set out the perfect chimera! the reserves of the ground base can be inexhaustible compared to the floating pit, the firepower of even four runways will exceed the capabilities of the four augs, at times the ground base will not wait for your pit to bomb it, and will reload them in the very first hours of the battle with their anti-ship missiles and aircraft, together with advanced submarines, so .... do not compare rotten, with mature.
                    1. 0
                      3 August 2019 20: 12
                      They may or may not. It all depends on how often these supplies are delivered.
                      That's just each of these AUGs at any moment can sail to the base and sail away. But the ground base (if not measured by geological periods, landslides and earthquakes) is motionless. So it’s not the base that chooses when it’s hit.
                      To drown AUG with your RCC (and submarines) you need to know where they are, but for this, intelligence is needed. Here are just an air patrol from one base, or it should constantly fly in the amount of 100-200 planes (to withstand the sudden attack of 4 AUGs) or it will be shot down.
                      1. 0
                        4 August 2019 22: 41
                        only come with us ......., but did you actually go out to sea at least once? You don’t understand anything at all, the ground base is surrounded by air defense surpassing all AUG capabilities at times, with the ground base there are many planes with the most advanced characteristics, there are a lot of them and they are weatherproof, for example, in underground hangars, there are significant reserves for the whole war, for example, food for five years, ammunition for three years .....
                        AUG by today's standards is motionless, noticeable, has a limited air defense composition, weak aircraft, depends on weather conditions, has limited supplies of all types of supplies, is defenseless against missile and torpedo strikes ....... and
                      2. 0
                        6 August 2019 09: 59
                        If you dislike sailing, then let them come.
                        On a pleasure boat and in the bay is considered?
                        Of course, I don’t understand how all this magnificent base, or rather, the base, was destroyed by carrier-based aircraft (war in the Pacific Ocean). I don’t understand how the Su-25K and Su-27K become weak compared to the Su-25 and Su-27. I don’t understand why AUG decides to attack then when the storm will prevent her from doing this. I don’t understand how modern equipment and bases can withstand the impact of bombs, torpedoes, and shells, but for some reason tanks are still vulnerable to travel, ships go (sail), planes fly, infantrymen serve.
        2. AAK
          0
          1 August 2019 18: 39
          Colleague, we forgot about the 4th - Kaliningrad (but this is more of a joke), and as for the essence of the "unsinkable aircraft carriers" listed by you, only Crimea falls under this wording (earlier, under the USSR, there were 12 airfields with a runway of more than 2 km, 6 of them are now relatively combat-ready, and 5 are used), for the whole of Kamchatka, which is 10 times larger in area than Crimea and is the only strategic outpost of the Russian Federation in the east, there are only 2 or 3 airfields, on the entire Kola Peninsula there are also no more than 4-5 airfields, so that they are not completely "kosher" aircraft carriers, but, alas, Russia still needs "tubs" (in my opinion - 2 in the north and 3 in the east) ...
          1. -1
            1 August 2019 19: 17
            yes yes Kaliningrad forgot ....... because the Baltic Fleet is not needed at all and it is logical to call the Kaliningrad enclave not an aircraft carrier, but a land base of the Russian Federation. For nevertheless, the aircraft carrier is even unsinkable, there is support for certain naval operations, nuclear submarines, for example, submarines, by the way, can guard those areas of the sea border where there are no air bases ...... and by the way, two three lanes in Kamchatka are much larger and better than one on the easily sinking pool, you still need to build airfields in Kamchatka, and everywhere, instead of unnecessary aircraft carriers, weapons of aggression
            ,
  16. -2
    1 August 2019 15: 02
    If in an adult way, then the time of classic aircraft carriers has passed.
    A modern aircraft carrier ship cannot be an armed ship, since its function is to refuel, equip and raise manned and unmanned aerial vehicles, as well as their reception on deck (not for everyone and not always). At the same time, the decisive indicator for such a carrier ship is the length of the runway and the capacity of the cellars of fuel tanks, as well as seaworthiness (the ability to perform its functions in fresh weather). Maneuverability, speed, security - are secondary. And most importantly, it’s just a floating airfield, without the functions of a flagship and a center of combat stability.
    As a result, we get an 80% supertanker, and an aircraft carrier by 20%.
  17. +2
    1 August 2019 15: 39
    The article is certainly interesting and informative, thanks to the author. Of course, there are stylistic errors when the respected Andrey writes about the "Ulyanovsk" as a real ship. On the other hand, one must understand that the USSR did not plan to bend in 1991, and tried to create an asymmetrical response to the AUG. As for modern times, I cannot imagine situations of a direct clash with large US / NATO formations. Believe it or not, the military has a much better idea of ​​how this could end.
    1. -2
      1 August 2019 15: 58
      Of course, I apologize, but when did the military begin the war?
      War is an indispensable attribute of the history of human development. In conditions of scarcity of resources and the boundless greed of man - war is inevitable. And they begin at all not out of idle interest, but out of the impossibility of further maintaining the status quo. Since the leadership of truly sovereign countries is in the hands of politicians, it is they who start the war at the moment when they consider it appropriate. An alternative to war is the voluntary renunciation of sovereignty by a country threatened by war.
  18. 0
    1 August 2019 17: 42
    and as a result, real photos of aircraft carriers and photo montage with models of aircraft carriers cruisers. On the contrary !!!
    1. AAK
      0
      1 August 2019 18: 45
      Really unpleasant, I agree with you, colleague, but we will be realistic, Rossi needs aircraft carriers both in peacetime and non-peacetime, but it will be possible to begin their construction (provided stability is maintained in the economy and in the state’s foreign and domestic policies) not earlier than through 10-12 years old
  19. -1
    1 August 2019 18: 31
    Soviet Ulyanovsk and American Nimitz: nuclear, aircraft carriers, but why are they so different?
    One did. And the whole series was. Another abortion was killed.
  20. +1
    2 August 2019 00: 16
    Soviet Ulyanovsk and American Nimitz: nuclear, aircraft carriers, but why so different


    They are different because one is, and the second is not. M in the foreseeable future is not expected. request
  21. 0
    2 August 2019 01: 48
    Dear "top warriors", in connection with the consideration of a possible theater of operations of the aircraft carrier "Ulyanovsk", it is not known to whom the US floating airfields "ply" the northern latitudes and, accordingly, whether they are conducting full-fledged exercises with the rise of an air wing, etc. P.? Thanks in advance....
  22. +1
    3 August 2019 01: 11
    Great article. Everything is laid out on shelves.
    1. 0
      4 August 2019 14: 39
      Quote: Newone
      Great article. Everything is laid out on shelves.

      Well done Andrey !! He knows how to raise the topic for the "birth of the storm" discussions on the VO page - beautiful !!!
  23. 0
    5 September 2019 08: 10
    The logic of choosing marine missile aircraft as the main strike force is simple and straightforward. Russia (USSR) has 4 isolated Naval Theater. But for coastal aviation, all theaters are connected by internal operational lines.
  24. 0
    16 September 2019 22: 23
    Good article with the right approach to analysis. I saw for myself an interesting figure on the options for combining different types of aircraft. You can roughly estimate the ratio of the occupied area of ​​the Su-33 and MiG-29 (9 to 20). It is a pity there is no assessment of the battle of the F-14 against the Su-33. Surely it was done in a specialized institute, but who remembers the results.
  25. 0
    2 February 2020 19: 58
    As reported on Polish portals, the TASS agency reports that the Nevsky design bureau should develop a new ship based on the unfinished nuclear carrier of project 1143,7 Ulyanovsk. The preliminary draft should be ready by the end of 2020, the final draft by the end of 2027.