"Suitcase" against asylum

96
The impact of artillery shells on various types of shelters is an extremely interesting question. We have already touched him (see Concrete First World), and now we want to delve into the topic by looking at the shells of especially heavy calibers (420-mm, 380-mm and 305-mm, called “suitcases” during the First World War) - in this case, the fortress of Verdun. The main source of the article was the little-known work of an outstanding Russian specialist on the topic - Colonel of the Russian Army and Red Army Diving Engineer V.I. Rdultovsky.





Verdun fortress refuges are classified by main types 3:

No. 1 - Stone sandstone or limestone hideouts, generally soft, 1 - 1,5 meters thick in the castle, covered with 2 - 5 meters of earth.

No. 2 - Refuge of the same materials, reinforced with a concrete mattress thickness of about 2,5 meters (sometimes less), with an intermediate layer of sand in the 1 meter thickness.

No. 3 - Shelters with supporting walls made of special concrete, with overlappings of reinforced concrete slabs of various thicknesses, depending on the position of the object on the front.

"Suitcase" against asylum

Fort Duomon in January 1916


All of them were built on clayey soil or on fissured limestone, more or less durable.

420-mm shell


The total weight of the projectile is 930 kg, the bursting charge 106 kg (subsequently, a new projectile weighing 795 kg with a bursting charge 137 kg was introduced). The shells had a pipe with a slowdown; they produced craters from 8 to 13 meters in diameter and from 2,5 to 6 meters in depth (depending on the soil). In clayey limestones, an 420-mm shell sometimes made a very deep channel. 18 February 1915, one of these projectiles that fell at an angle of 60 degrees to the horizon at the glacis of Gorki fort, made a channel from 0,6 to 0,8 meters in diameter and 10,1 in limestone rock with a fissure and rather poor quality meters along the trajectory, or 8,75 meters, counting vertically.


Entrance to Fort Duomon, January 1916


Impact on ordinary stone buildings

Falling behind the scarp and counter-scarp walls, 420-mm projectiles destroyed them at 8-15 meters in length, depending on the distance of the drop point from the inner surface of the wall and on the properties of the soil and masonry.

The 4 such bombs, which fell on the fort behind the scarp and counter-escarp walls, created a gap in them about 30 meters in length.


Fort Duomon before the German offensive


Stone buildings of type No. 1 were pierced by these shells; the arches were pierced with a knife, and the effects of gases often destroyed the front walls of the casemates. A projectile pierced a cylindrical canal 8 meters in length, then struck 2's vault 2 and 1,5 meters thick, and finally, the top of the projectile dug 0,5 meters into the cellar wall.

Once in a vault of unreinforced concrete with a 4 meter thick, an 420-mm projectile punched it, and continuing on its way, it punched the wall into the 1 meter thick and then penetrated the opposite wall into the 0,5 meter; There was no explosion.

Although these projectiles undergo considerable resistance when passing through embankments and masonry - yet the loss from this of their speed was not always sufficient for the action of the bottom tube with which they were supplied; that is why many of these shells did not explode. These shells could penetrate the second set.


The moats of Fort Woo, June 1916


Action on concrete

Stone buildings of type No. 2 could have been pierced by these shells, - as was the case at one of the 15 forts in February 1915 g. The hole formed was from 3 to 4 meters in diameter. However, it should be noted that these vaults were protected by powder of sand in the 1 meter over a concrete mattress only 1,5 meter thick.

One projectile, which fell above the entrance to a hardened-type powder cellar, destroyed concrete in 7 meters in length, 3 meters in width and about 0,6 meters in depth.


Interior of Fort Tavennes


Shelters such as No. 3 were often destroyed by these shells.

Reinforced concrete slabs 1,25 meters thick, overlapping the course of the message, were punched.

The 1,5 meter-thick concrete slabs that covered the shaft shelters, the wardrobe trunks and the cellars were also pierced, and the 0,25 meter slabs that are thick, which sometimes separated the floors in the shelters, were probably destroyed by gas. shell fragments. The bomb exploded in the stove; in fact, on the upper side of the slab was a funnel about 0,7 meters in diameter and 0,6 - 0,7 meters deep; then an explosion chamber followed, in which the concrete was turned into dust and the iron was destroyed over the length of the 1,5 - 1,8 meter. In the 1,5 meter thick slabs, the last iron rods, before being killed, were strongly curved.


Old entrance to Fort Syvill, September 1916


In one fort, the 1,64 meter-thick slab overlapping the cellar was not completely destroyed; the last iron trades were not interrupted, and only bent, with the greatest bend of the latter reaching 0,5 meters in circumference, 2,2 - 2,5 meters in diameter. And the concrete, broken into pieces of medium size, these thrusts still supported. Indoors there were no traces from the explosion of the projectile.

In one of the fortifications, a meter-thick 1,75 slab, which overlaps the intermediate caponier, hit an 420-mm projectile near its support, which caused only an insignificant deflection on its lower surface; the last rows of reinforcement remained unharmed.

Getting into the concrete collars or avant-alles of armored towers, 420-mm shells caused cracks in the massif, demolishing it to a depth of 1 - 1,65 meters. At the same time, some of the shaped stones moved apart and collided. The correction of such damage, in general, was carried out quickly.



These initial observations made it possible to state that slabs or arrays of reinforced concrete, in order to withstand a single hit of an 420-mm projectile, should have a thickness of at least 1,75 meter.

In one of the forts, iron reinforcement of concrete was often bare. Traces of the concrete mass in which it was immersed were absent. Apparently, the separation of iron reinforcement from the concrete mass was facilitated by the fact that the vibrations caused by a powerful blow and the subsequent explosion of the projectile have different speed and tension in the iron and concrete, and thus contribute to the separation of these two materials.

In general, around the points of impact of these projectiles, separation of successive concrete layers was observed, which was revealed by the separation of the outer surface. Destroyed concrete has been broken into small pieces and often turned into powder.


Fort Syville in March 1917


An 420-mm projectile could destroy support walls, arches and slabs of special concrete; he most often divided them into large pieces, about 0,5 cubic. meter Some of them were thrown back by a projectile explosion, but others often remained in balance, thus protecting the massif from complete destruction.

380-mm shells


Total weight 750 kg, bursting charge 68 kg, initial speed 940 meters per second.

Mound action

In the mounds, these shells created 3 funnels - 11,5 meters in diameter and depth (in clay) from 4 to 5 meters. In the sandy and stony soil depth was less.

Action on ordinary stone buildings

380-mm projectile is equipped with a bottom tube without slowing down, and therefore explodes at the moment of impact on a solid barrier. If the structure did not have a slab that took over the explosion of the projectile, the projectile could destroy type 1 shelters, forming holes from 3 to 4 meters in diameter in them.


Fort Movens Southern Moat


The shell destroyed scarp and counter-scarp walls on 5 - 6 meters in length and about 4 meters in height.

In one case, the outer wall of the scarp gallery, the thickness of the 1,3 meter, was pierced, and the inner wall was not seriously affected.

Action on the city

Since the 380-mm naval gun had great power and a very long range of fire (38 kilometers), the Germans often used it for bombing cities, and in particular for bombing Verdun.

4 June 1915, about thirty such shells were fired at this city.

Projectile fragments, accompanied by a multitude of stones, fly apart on 200 - 300 meters. The screwed bottom, which is 12 cm thick and weighs 54 kg, is almost always unharmed and is thrown back.

When normalized from the front side to the stone buildings of an ordinary device, the action of explosive charge gases destroyed everything, emptying at least 15-meter space, but the gas pressure quickly weakened, and already in 20 meters, ordinary walls and even partitions remained intact.

On the example of the study of a large number of houses of Verdun the following is noted:

1) If the house consisted of an attic, lower floor and basement, the attic and the lower floor were destroyed by hitting an 380-mm projectile in the roof, and the basement usually remained intact.

2) With a similar hit into a multi-storey building, there was a destruction of the upper floors, while the lower ones remained undamaged - provided that the building materials were of sufficient quality and the floors between the floors were sufficiently strong.

House number 15 on Rue de la Reviere could serve as a characteristic example: the attic and the upper floor, which were freed from the occupants before the bombardment, were destroyed, but in the dining room, which was in the lower experience, the hanging objects remained intact, and there was nothing in the kitchen broken. In the neighboring house, damage to the lower floor was apparently caused by the collapse of the interfloor overlap caused by the explosion of the projectile and the fall of furniture from the upper floor and the attic.

In the Beaurepaire barracks, the destruction only touched the attic and the upper floor, and was stopped by the roof of the next floor. Similarly, in the Buvignier school, the two upper floors were destroyed, but the lower one remained intact.


Fort Duomone. State of the art


In the absence of underground shelters, the French recommended hiding from the shelling of 380-mm shells in the back corridors of the lower floors of multi-storey barracks, as well as in the vaulted cellars of houses (subject to strengthening - as will be said later - from the threat from 305-mm shells). On earthen sprinkling of casemates it is necessary to make slabs perceiving explosions.

Action on buildings of type number 2

380-mm shells were made on buildings of type number 2, apparently, only a superficial impact. Probably, these shells (and not 420-mm) should be attributed to the relatively weak destruction of the casemates, as well as the powder cellar, reinforced by type No. 2. There were funnels 0,6 meters deep and 2-3 meters in diameter, and from 2-x shells that fell almost simultaneously - funnels about 1 meters deep.



The gallery connecting the casemates mentioned above was simply covered with a slab of special concrete 2 meter thick. The concrete cracked from the impact of the projectile, and large pieces of it, up to cub. meters each, were repulsed from the vault and from the supporting wall. When hit 380-mm bomb, the effect of a layer of sand between the concrete slab and ordinary masonry was very significant, because in the casemates, reinforced with a layer of sand and a concrete slab, there were no signs of concrete damage.

Asylum Action No. 3

One 380-mm projectile produced in a reinforced concrete vault 1,6 meter thick above the gallery between the casemates, a funnel, which caused a swelling about 0,1 meter and 4 - 5 meters in diameter on the lower surface of the vault.

Under similar conditions, in another fortification, 380-mm projectile landed in the vault of the gallery between the casemates, forming a funnel about 1,8 meters in diameter and 1 meters in depth. It was accompanied by swelling of the lower surface of the vault at 0,6-meter height and about 2 meters in diameter.



27 February 1916. One similar projectile hit the 1,5-meter slab thickness, covering the shelter No. 15, and formed a larger funnel, accompanied by the breaking of reinforced concrete and breaking most of the metal fittings.

Similar results were observed on 21 Jun 1916 in another place in the concrete corridor at the casemate.

305-mm shells


Full weight 383 kg, breaking charge - 37 kg.

In 305 mounds, shells produced craters ranging from 3 to 8 meters in diameter and 2 to 5 meters in depth.

Buildings of type number 1 made their way through this projectile; it could explode even before the arch was broken through, but it usually exploded in the vault, and sometimes below it, and the explosion was so strong that the front walls (or walls of similar resistance) overturned. In the barracks of a single fort, the upper floor of which was separated from the lower one only by a vault of bricks 0,22 meters thick, only after 3 - 4 hits shells penetrated the lower floor. However, it can be assumed that, with a lack of deep shelters, relative safety against short-term and not very intensive shelling of 305-mm shells would represent the rear galleries of the lower floors of the floor casemates of ordinary masonry covered with earth - provided that the partitions in the lower part of the casemate are seriously strengthened. and when placed on the upper floor (previously backed up) a layer of sand, gravel or small stones. This backfill is necessary only over the protected part and must be 3 - 4 thick.


Fort Waugh. State of the art


It is impossible to note with certainty the effect of 305-mm shells on asylum of type No. 2 and type No. 3, since these shells were fired simultaneously with 380- and 420-mm, and it was not possible to accurately determine the damage caused by them.

It should be noted that one 305-mm projectile hit the 1,5-meter-high reinforced concrete slab overlapping the double coffer: an entrance 0,5 funnel of a meter in diameter and a depth of 0,3-0,4 meters was formed; then the projectile exploded in the slab, crushing concrete and cutting iron reinforcement, as a result of which a splinter appeared on the lower surface of the slab in 0,2 - 0,3 meters deep with a diameter of 1,5 - 1,8 meters.

The ending should ...
96 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +10
    21 July 2019 06: 47
    Thanks, interesting.

    Pre-war bunkers were classified by wall thickness and ability to withstand projectile impacts.
    class M-1 - had a combat coating with a thickness of 1,1 m, frontal walls of 1,5 m.
    class M-2 - respectively 0,9 m and 1,4 m; Both classes according to the documentation are designed for direct hits of shells of 152-mm caliber, the difference is probably in the number of hits or the speed of the shell. It was believed that bunkers of the M-1 and M-2 classes could withstand a single hit of shells up to 203 mm.
    class M-3 - 0,6 m and 0,9 m. howitzer shell 122 mm, guns 76 mm (USSR, 1931 g.)
  2. +8
    21 July 2019 07: 24
    At one time, I visited the long-term firing installations of the Red Army in the area of ​​the so-called. "old Granmtsy", in the Volochisk area in a multi-storey cannon bunker (unfortunately I could not get into the lower floors, it was flooded), as well as in a small, machine-gun bunker in the Letichev area. , its inner surface was lined with armor plates arranged like scales.
    1. 0
      21 July 2019 10: 17
      Quote: bistrov.
      The machine-gun bunker impressed me especially, with a thickness of reinforced concrete walls of about a meter, its inner surface was lined with armor plates arranged like scales.

      This is still weak - of the M3 class. But when the walls with a thickness of one and a half meters, with rebar and with a metal (usually Kruppovsky) rebound, they are torn apart - they become uncomfortable.
      1. -1
        22 July 2019 12: 11
        I don’t know about you, but at any close projectile break 152 + mm feel uneasy.
        1. +4
          22 July 2019 13: 26
          With a CLOSE rupture of such a projectile you wouldn’t write it now laughing
          1. +3
            22 July 2019 20: 30
            yehat entered the role laughing
          2. -3
            22 July 2019 22: 00
            Quote: Hunghouse
            With a CLOSE rupture of such a projectile you wouldn’t write it now laughing

            Oh, somehow lupanuli on exercises, our boobies in 150 from KNP (2С1). There is something to remember ...
  3. -5
    21 July 2019 07: 38
    380-mm shells
    Total weight 750 kg, bursting charge 68 kg, initial speed 940 meters per second.

    At the initial speed, an obvious typo.
    1. +6
      21 July 2019 09: 02
      At the initial speed, an obvious typo.

      no typos, everything is absolutely accurate
      1. -5
        21 July 2019 12: 25
        Name the first world gun that had such indicators of the initial velocity of the projectile in this caliber!
        1. +6
          21 July 2019 13: 22
          Is it named, or can't you read ?? 380 mm marine gun
          1. +5
            21 July 2019 13: 33
            dgonni (Djon) do you know such a Paris cannon, which bombarded Paris in 1918? Its trunk is 380 mm from the sea gun into which the insert was inserted.
            Here is the performance characteristics of this Paris gun

            and why, let me know, this gun had 1646 meters per second,
            and the 380-mm naval gun, which had some of the most outstanding ballistic characteristics, and is famous for the beginning. projectile speed and range, 940 meters per second could not have, huh?)
            1. -4
              22 July 2019 12: 15
              1646 is the speed of a projectile
              and it is very indirectly related to the speed of a full-fledged heavy projectile.
              finally, the resistance of the gun to the amount of charge in the chamber is important.
              1. +2
                22 July 2019 13: 25
                What did they say they understood?)
                Caliber ...
                Full heavy ... What kind of animal wink
                Pomegranate or shrapnel?
                New words in the history of science and technology laughing
            2. -6
              22 July 2019 19: 18
              Quote: Albatroz
              why, let me know, this gun had 1646 meters per second,

              Maybe because it's just a 209 mm cracker with a 100 kg shell?
              Quote: Albatroz
              and the 380-mm naval gun, which had some of the most outstanding ballistic characteristics, and is famous for the beginning. projectile speed and range

              For the beginning of the 20th century. But 940 m / s at 750 kg is a lot even for WWII. The height of the trunk has not been canceled. And he, starting from a certain moment, depending on the propellant charge, begins to grow exponentially.
              1. +3
                22 July 2019 19: 51
                And this one there too. Urine is spoken to him, but he is God's dew)
                Figures and facts have been given to you and people like you stubborn.
                That the projectile 380 mm guns developed a speed of 800 - 1040 meters per second.
                All other considerations are conversations for the poor)
                You see a lot of this for WWII. Let a lot, but it was. Facts are a stubborn thing, and will not cease to be facts, even if some particular individual does not believe in them)
                The Germans created such a gun and that's it
          2. -7
            21 July 2019 13: 55
            I asked for the brand of the gun system with an initial speed of 940 m / s in World War I! You called a sea gun. But with such performance characteristics of instruments I do not see point blank!
            1. +4
              21 July 2019 15: 10
              First, do not confuse the initial speeds of mortars and guns (the latter are many times higher).
              Secondly, I repeat my question: why Paris a gun had 1646 meters per second,
              a 380 mm marine a gunfamous for the beg. projectile speed and range, 940 meters per second could not have?
              1. +9
                21 July 2019 15: 22
                Okay, dgonni (Djon), I won’t check you for logic. From experience - this is a hopeless case)
                I directly prove your wrong.
                Your question
                I asked for the brand of the gun system with an initial speed of 940 m / s in World War I! You called a sea gun.

                Exactly.
                And here is my answer.
                Here is the gun from which we are talking


                So, we open our eyes and read. Initial projectile speed - 1040 - 840 meters per second.
                Different types of ammunition, so the speeds vary slightly. But including 940 meters per second (she is average).
                At the top of the pages is an indication of the source.
                Have more questions?
                1. -5
                  21 July 2019 17: 52
                  Quote: Albatroz
                  The initial velocity of the projectile is 1040 - 840 meters per second.
                  Different types of ammunition, so the speeds vary slightly. But including 940 meters per second (it’s also average).
                  At the top of the pages is an indication of the source.
                  Have more questions?

                  http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_15-45_skc13.php
                  A very good site for naval weapons. For a 750kg shell, at full combat charge, a speed of 800m / s is given
                  PS Minusators) are so excited today
                  1. +4
                    21 July 2019 17: 58
                    If you carefully read the material whose scan I cited, you will see
                    that 380 mm-s are made only in the amount of 43 units, and although they are naval, they have proven themselves precisely on the land front, have no relation to naval battles.
                    All this is understandable without your murky Internet links.
                    Therefore, keep naval weapons with you.
                    For a 750kg shell, at full combat charge, a speed of 800m / s is given

                    Accordingly, no, that's right -
                    Total weight 750 kg, bursting charge 68 kg, initial speed 940 meters per second.

                    Or do you consider yourself more literate than Rdultovsky? lol
                    1. -3
                      22 July 2019 12: 37
                      Quote: Albatroz
                      If you carefully read the material whose scan I cited, you will see
                      that 380 mm-s are made only in the amount of 43 units, and although they are naval, they have proven themselves precisely on the land front, have no relation to naval battles.

                      Hmm ... please read the first paragraph of what you posted - it says in black and white that these guns were intended for four Bayerns. But since only two Bayerns were built, two dozen guns remained in the fleet's warehouses, and they were used on the land front.
                      So the data from Navweaps is quite relevant here - especially since there are separately given marine and land versions of the gun.

                      Regarding the initial speed - you need to look at Navweaps not only tables, but also notes. smile In the tables for overland 38 cm / 45 (14.96 ") SK L / 45, the initial speed is actually 800 m / s for a 750 kg land mine and 1040 m / s for a 400 kg land mine.
                      And the notes say that the "original" initial velocity was 890 m / s, but at this initial velocity, the dispersion was considered unacceptably large.
                      The original muzzle velocity was 2,920 fps (890 mps) but dispersion was unacceptable at this velocity.
                      1. +2
                        22 July 2019 13: 22
                        And you will study a little history and how often these weapons were used at sea and on the land front.
                        In the latter, they mainly acted.
                        But well done Alex, faithfully studied the scans. The process of cognition is going on) So not in vain)
                      2. -1
                        22 July 2019 14: 09
                        Quote: Hunghouse
                        And you will study a little history and how often these weapons were used at sea and on the land front.
                        In the latter, they mainly acted.

                        Once again - on the Navweaps are given the numbers of the initial speed for both sea and land guns. There are only two types of high-explosive shells in land guns: 750 kg and 400 kg. And the maximum initial speeds are therefore only two - 800 m / s and 1040 m / s.
                        Where did the speed of 940 m / s come from, especially for a 750 kg projectile?
                        Quote: Albatroz
                        Different types of ammunition, so the speeds vary slightly. But including 940 meters per second (it’s also average).

                        Rdutlovsky's work was written in 1918-1919, when there was no exact data on German artillery. So there could well have been a slightly overestimated design muzzle velocity of 38 cm / 45 (14.96 ") SK L / 45 - not real.
                      3. +2
                        22 July 2019 14: 32
                        I don’t need to repeat my assertions and squeezes from modern sites. We know the price to them. This time)
                        There are only 2 speeds because you said so?)
                        800 and 1040?) Types of high-explosive shells ... But what about the other types?)
                        Kindergarten. If Rdultovsky gives 940, then I believe him.
                        Yes, one engineer of those years, such as Rdultovsky, costs a dozen modern modelers, Verkhoglyad, such as Shpakovsky. Or maybe hundreds)
                        And the work was written not in 18-19 years, but in 20 years. If you haven't even seen this (although the title is given at the beginning of the article), then what can you talk about with such a "specialist" ???
                      4. +3
                        22 July 2019 14: 33
                        All the information then was available to specialists, despite the lack of the Internet)
                      5. -2
                        22 July 2019 15: 14
                        Quote: Hunghouse
                        There are only 2 speeds because you said so?)

                        Tell me how much maximum initial speeds can be two types of shells? Really more than two - two maximum, two most maximum and two a little bit not maximum? wink
                        Quote: Hunghouse
                        But what other types were there?)

                        Serial were only two types of high-explosive shells - 750 kg and 400 kg. Other types were not adopted.
                        Quote: Hunghouse
                        Kindergarten. If Rdultovsky gives 940, then I believe him.

                        Well, Shirokorad in his Talmud on Soviet artillery, written on the basis of archival documents, at one time gave a mass of explosives as much as 20 grams for a 27,5 mm ShVAK projectile. And then it turned out to be just a typo. smile
                        Quote: Hunghouse
                        And the work was written not in 18-19 years, but in 20 years. If you haven't even seen this (although the title is given at the beginning of the article), then what can you talk about with such a "specialist" ???

                        1920 is not the year of writing the book, but the year the book was published.
                      6. +2
                        22 July 2019 15: 34
                        And where did you get that there are only 2 types of shells?)
                        This time. Yes, and there are options.
                        Shirokoradov keep it for yourself)
                        And how do you know if the book was written in the year 20 (and was published in the same year) or in 18-19 (and was published in the year 20) if you didn’t see it?
                        Do you think it was written 2 years?))
                        A thin brochure, at 20 written, at 20 and left.
                      7. -4
                        22 July 2019 17: 10
                        Quote: Hunghouse
                        And how do you know if the book was written in the year 20 (and was published in the same year) or in 18-19 (and was published in the year 20) if you didn’t see it?
                        Do you think it was written 2 years?))
                        A thin brochure, at 20 written, at 20 and left.

                        So then there was no Internet - the art of google and Ctrl + C / Ctrl + V was not available. Under the conditions of the Civil War, it was necessary to get documents or secondary literature / articles in specialized journals, collect them, squeeze water - and write a book.
                      8. +2
                        22 July 2019 19: 43
                        So I look that all your art is to google)
                        And such specialists as Rdultovsky approached their work very efficiently and professionally. They had all the necessary information, especially since 4 years have passed since the battle of Verdun.
                        I personally watched the periodicals for 18 years - information masterpieces. Already in the year 18, the war had not yet ended, and there are German statistics!
                        Well, already a pro Rdultovsky in the period 1916-1920. I had every opportunity to collect material and write, by the way, not a book, but a thin brochure.
                        So do not blame the person with whom people like you did not stand. Sorry for the frankness)
                      9. +2
                        22 July 2019 20: 38
                        Alexey RA, and what do you mean by TYPES of shells, let me know? laughing
                        So convinced noodles broadcasting, already a sight for sore eyes)
                      10. +1
                        23 July 2019 18: 20
                        Quote: denatured alcohol
                        Alexey RA, and what do you mean by TYPES of shells, let me know?

                        Two types of HE shells:
                        Spgr. L / 5,4 m. Bdz. (mhb) - high-explosive shell weighing 750 kg
                        Spgr. L / 4,1 m. Bdz. u. Kz. (mhb) - "short" high-explosive projectile weighing 400 kg
                      11. +1
                        23 July 2019 22: 38
                        The question as I understand it was - what is a TYPE of shell)
                      12. +2
                        22 July 2019 20: 35
                        Hmm ...
                        Alexey R.A.
                        I read the first paragraph of the scan. And there is not a word about Bayren laughing
                        And you claim that it is written about it in black and white. Well, why so obviously lie, eh?
                        It says just that the Germans made 43 of these guns. Albatross is right.
                      13. 0
                        23 July 2019 18: 17
                        Quote: denatured alcohol
                        I read the first paragraph of the scan. And there is not a word about Bayren

                        We carefully read the last sentence of the first paragraph of the posted scan of the page "Encyclopedia of Special Power Artillery":
                        They were intended for four heavy-duty battleships of the Bayern type, however, only two ships were built, so more than two dozen guns remained in the fleet's warehouses.
                  2. -3
                    22 July 2019 12: 39
                    Quote: BORMAN82
                    A very good site for naval weapons. For a 750kg shell, at full combat charge, a speed of 800m / s is given

                    In the notes - "the original is 890 m / s, but the dispersion is unacceptably large." smile
                    1. -5
                      22 July 2019 13: 45
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      Quote: BORMAN82
                      A very good site for naval weapons. For a 750kg shell, at full combat charge, a speed of 800m / s is given

                      In the notes - "the original is 890 m / s, but the dispersion is unacceptably large." smile

                      The Albatross has 940m / s for 750kg and not a meter less belay He has his own “sources” belay
                      1. The comment was deleted.
                      2. +3
                        22 July 2019 14: 42
                        I don’t ironize you about this professor)
                      3. -5
                        22 July 2019 15: 33
                        Quote: Hunghouse
                        I don’t ironize you about this professor)

                        Disrespectful "the professor sang along", Rdulovsky wrote everything right - 800m / s 750kg. shell. You just need to wipe your eyes, otherwise you all see clones and pygmies fellow

                        Yes, and somehow all of this is strange, the Albatross disappeared somewhere, and Honghuz cuts the truth, the womb, unkempt hands. Are you a clone? bully
                      4. +3
                        22 July 2019 15: 42
                        Have you read the brochure of Rdultovsky, which is analyzed in the article?
                        Lying.
                        Or send a page? Pliz, I'm waiting)
                        Your page is a modern book, and Rdultovsky in black and white - 940 meters per second.
                        Waiting for a page of Rdultovsky)
                      5. -3
                        22 July 2019 15: 55
                        My sick one) this is a page from Professor Albatross's "concrete proof") So ask him for a scan of the reprinted edition of Rdulovsky's works. Or you don't communicate with each other feel ?
                        Quote: Albatroz
                        Okay, dgonni (Djon), I won’t check you for logic. From experience - this is a hopeless case)
                        I directly prove your wrong.
                        Your question
                        I asked for the brand of the gun system with an initial speed of 940 m / s in World War I! You called a sea gun.

                        Exactly.
                        And here is my answer.
                        Here is the gun from which we are talking


                        So, we open our eyes and read. Initial projectile speed - 1040 - 840 meters per second.
                        Different types of ammunition, so the speeds vary slightly. But including 940 meters per second (she is average).
                        At the top of the pages is an indication of the source.
                        Have more questions?
                      6. +3
                        22 July 2019 16: 10
                        Wait.
                        Why are you stitching me these huge copies of a modern book to just chat the topic?
                        Why translate arrows to others?
                        Do you have a residual drop of dignity?
                        You wrote above - at Rdultovsky it is written about the speed of a 750-kg projectile 800 meters per second.
                        I ask you to prove these words, because you burped them and not an albatross)
                      7. +2
                        22 July 2019 16: 16
                        In the commentary at 15.53. you wrote "at Rdultovskiy it is written correctly 750 kg shell 800 meters per second".
                        I claim that you are Bormann 82 liar.
                        For Rdultovsky wrote about 940 meters per second for this projectile.
                        Confirm with a scan of the page of Rdultovsky where it is supposedly written) wait-s)
                      8. +1
                        22 July 2019 20: 41
                        Do not wait for any pages from Bormann82
                        This troll attacked, its task is to pat and not inform
                      9. 0
                        24 July 2019 10: 41
                        This is not at Albatross, but Rdultovsky, Troll Bormann
                2. The comment was deleted.
                3. -4
                  22 July 2019 10: 20
                  This is how turn © And our "professor" himself did not read his "source"
                  Quote: Albatroz
                  So, we open our eyes and read. The initial velocity of the projectile is 1040 - 840 meters per second.

                  Wipe your clear eyes and study the link, there the speed is 800! - 1040m / s fellow
                  Quote: Albatroz
                  If you carefully read the material whose scan I cited, you will see
                  that 380 mm-s are made only in the amount of 43 units, and although they are naval, they have proven themselves precisely on the land front, have no relation to naval battles.
                  All this is understandable without your murky Internet links.
                  Therefore, keep naval weapons with you.
                  For a 750kg shell, at full combat charge, a speed of 800m / s is given
                  Accordingly, no, that's right -
                  Total weight 750 kg, bursting charge 68 kg, initial speed 940 meters per second.


                  Albatros, you have a clear talent - to turn over the numbers and raise srach on the whole topic negative
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                      1. +3
                        22 July 2019 13: 19
                        I have no idols.
                        You and your clone grower lied that the projectile speed of 940 meters per second is a typo, and this cannot be the case with such calibers.
                        They proved to you that the projectile reached not only 940 meters per second, but 1040 meters per second.
                        What convincingly exposes the incompetent Bormann and his ilk)
                      2. -3
                        22 July 2019 14: 12
                        Quote: Hunghouse
                        They proved to you that the projectile reached not only 940 meters per second, but 1040 meters per second.

                        These are two different shells.
                        The speed of 1040 m / s is given for a "light" high-explosive projectile weighing 400 kg. And for the 750-kg projectile specified at Rdultovsky, the maximum muzzle velocity is 800 m / s.
                      3. +3
                        22 July 2019 14: 40
                        It’s clear without you that these are different shells
                        800, 940 and 1040 meters per second.
                        Just dgonny (borman) several times in the comments gasped and squealed that in the First World War such projectile speeds were impossible for such calibers.
                        Here is his littleness and brought to life by poking his face
                      4. -3
                        22 July 2019 15: 15
                        Quote: Hunghouse
                        It’s clear without you that these are different shells
                        800, 940 and 1040 meters per second.

                        Only 800 and 1040 m / s. There are no 940 m / s.
                      5. The comment was deleted.
                      6. The comment was deleted.
                      7. The comment was deleted.
                      8. +1
                        24 July 2019 10: 39
                        Only 800 and 1040 m / s. There are no 940 m / s.

                        Because some unnamed "commentator" wrote that?
                        We believe the specialist Rdultovsky) there are 940 meters per second, however much you would like to)
                  2. -5
                    22 July 2019 16: 33
                    Yes, there was a noble tantrum above. disgusting.
                    1. +2
                      22 July 2019 19: 00
                      Whose tantrum, your bormans?)
                      Of course))
                      They grabbed for one place)))
                  3. +1
                    24 July 2019 11: 07
                    I also drew attention to the uncleanliness of the trolls borman, dgonni, Alexey Ra and the campaign.
                    Let me explain.
                    1) these characters were genuinely surprised: how is it that, at that time, the Germans had a cannon in WWI, with such calibers developing a projectile speed of 940 meters per second. Oh oh oh! Can not be. In principle, at that time such speeds were impossible.
                    However, this is from ignorance. You just do not have to stick it out and get insolent.
                    2) when these characters were convincingly proved that the shell of this 380-mm gun reached speeds from 800 to 1040 meters per second, another trick came into play - yes, we pierced and there are still such high speeds, but only 800 and 1040 meters per second. And 940 meters per second - supposedly not.
                    But these unfortunate gunners did not know at all that at that time guns of such calibers had speeds of about a thousand meters per second. So how can they be trusted already in such nuances?
                    About 940 meters per second, divine engineer Rdultovsky writes, the remarkable work of which this article is devoted. Bormans, Johnny and Alexei Ra stated that he did not write this (without being familiar with this work).
                    When asked to confirm this fact with a link to Rdultovsky’s page, they began to yarn, chatter and send (like the borman above) pages from other books.
                    3) when this number did not pass, they put the final reception into action - Rdultovsky could not know this, is incompetent, etc. (although in the comments to the second part of the article "Are large calibers omnipotent?" they praise him eagerly).
                    And then there are the amba guys, the famous engineer and outstanding specialist Rdultovsky is not a match for modern modelers (one of them is mentioned at the bottom of the commentary), through dgonni and bormanov showing their online wackiness (which is actually based on profound ignorance).
                    So there are 940 meters per second and everything else indicated in the article.
                    Thank you to the author for introducing rare and informative material.
                    For some, it was a real discovery))
                4. -3
                  22 July 2019 19: 29
                  Quote: Albatroz
                  So, we open our eyes and read

                  Well, yes, I read it. 750 kg - 800 m / s are written in black and white. The article has an obvious typo, as required.
                  Quote: Albatroz
                  But including 940 meters per second

                  For a shell weighing 532 kg. But the article is about a shell weighing 750 kg, so the article is a mistake.
                  1. +3
                    22 July 2019 20: 01
                    The error is not in the article. A flaw in the incompetence of some grievous commentators ...
                    Will you also argue with Rdultovsky, who wrote about a 750 kg shell and a speed of 940 meters per second?
                    Who exactly are you ??
                  2. 0
                    23 July 2019 18: 23
                    Quote: brn521
                    For a shell weighing 532 kg.

                    What kind of beast is this?
                    Because everywhere for 380/45 two projectile masses are given - 750 kg for BB and F and 400 kg for the "short" F.
              2. -8
                21 July 2019 15: 44
                Because you need to be at least in the subject before writing! 940 m / s is the dream of all naval commanders with such a caliber. However, even in World War II, I do not remember a single weapon with such performance characteristics.
                1. The comment was deleted.
                  1. +5
                    21 July 2019 15: 48
                    Download the pages given by me and carefully study)
                    to remember not only in relation to WWII, and not just in dreams)
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                2. The comment was deleted.
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  4. 0
    21 July 2019 07: 49
    Big respect to the author for the work done!
    Without questioning the facts and conclusions cited in the article, I’ll just supplement the topic a little.
    The big disadvantage of the article is that the general scheme of the Verdun fortress is not given. Unfortunately, as a "teapot", I do not know the skills of inserting schemes and photographs into the text, so take my word for it.
    The strongest sector of the fortress was the north-eastern one, which was just attacked by the Germans. There passed the ridge of the Fuadterr hill, the right-flank ridge was just one of the strongest forts of the Duamon fortress, it was supported by a number of fortifications no less reliable, and between them rows of trenches, batteries, shelters.
    Verdun was the only fortress that held to the end of the war, because was built into a single front of defense, and not overlaid, like Przemysl, for example.
    The French calculated that Fort Duamon received over 120 thousand hits, of which 2 thousand rounds of caliber 28, 30,5, 38, 42 cm. Despite the damage received, the fort was still considered a defensive stronghold and observation point. Fort bombing cost of 20 times it exceeded the value of the fort itself and therefore the fort justified itself. Although the Germans took possession of the fort for some time, they didn’t go further.
    Marshal Pétain: "The Forts of Verdun brought powerful assistance to our troops during the battle and contributed widely to their success."
    French engineer Benoit: "even after the most powerful bombing raids, the concrete forts of Verdun retained most of their defenses and ... their active properties."
    Gen. Decourse: "Thanks to the French forts, many human lives were saved, and the long-term fortification greatly contributed to the salvation of Verdun!"
    1. +7
      21 July 2019 09: 08
      The big minus of the article is that the general scheme of the Verdun fortress is not given.

      is it because you so decided?
      The article is not about the Verdun operation and not about the assault on the Verdun fortress, but about the impact of heavy shells on certain types of fortifications, forts. Many of the forts I personally see in the illustration.
      As well as the number of shells fired at these.
      Verdun was the only fortress that held to the end of the war, because was built into a single front of defense, and not overlaid, like Przemysl, for example.

      This is just a positional front on this site from 1914 to 1918. almost did not move.
      It should be borne in mind that the life span of a fortress in a maneuvering war (Przemysl, Ivangorod, Osovets) is less than in a positional war. By the way, the same Osovets was a fortress built
      into a united front of defense
      and held for about a year. But surrendered by order, during a strategic pullback
      1. +10
        21 July 2019 09: 40
        And such integration into the defense of field forces and the stability of the front are very important for the albatross, you are right.
        In an isolated position, Verdun would undoubtedly share the fate of Maubeuge, Przemysl or Novogeorgievsk.
      2. -4
        22 July 2019 14: 37
        Quote: Albatroz
        This is just a positional front on this site from 1914 to 1918. almost did not move.

        What happened before - a chicken or an egg? smile
        The fortress held on because the positional front did not move? Or did the positional front not move because the field fortifications relied on the Verdun fortress?
        1. +3
          22 July 2019 14: 58
          Leave a cheap philosophy with you.
          Many fortresses paid off. Przemysl held an entire army and pulled a bunch of resources. Osovets and Ivangorod withstood several assaults and were a fulcrum for field armies.
          The fortress in the 20th century was successfully kept only under the condition of close interaction with the field army.
          But maneuver warfare involves active progress on the front line. And the fortress, which turned out to be isolated, will not last long. That is precisely why Przemysl, Osovets and Ivangorod fell or were left behind.
          Verdun was lucky in the sense that the positional front froze on its frontier for 4 years. And the success of Verdun’s defense is also in active interaction with the army, defending along the line of which he became the pivot. Therefore, Verdun held on because the positional front did not move, and at the same time, the defense of the field army, relying on Verdun, was more successful. The process is mutual
  5. 0
    21 July 2019 08: 16
    The 420 mm projectile was, apparently, mortar, and fell vertically, like an aerial bomb ... The author did not give an initial velocity, with such a trajectory it is not very important. The action of the marine 380 mm was not impressive. 305 mm for such fleets as the Verduns was not impressed at all. And on the other hand, what huge resources are "buried" in these fortresses ... Resources could be used differently ...
    1. +8
      21 July 2019 09: 10
      420 mm shell was apparently mortar
      mortar or howitzer (according to another classification)
      and fell vertically like an air bomb

      well, not quite upright
      Resources could be used differently ...

      that's for sure
    2. +5
      21 July 2019 09: 32
      Very interesting. It would also be interesting to read a detailed description of the action of mortar shells "Karl" -610 mm and cannon "Dora" - 810 mm on the fortifications of Sevastopol, in particular, on the battery of Alexander No. 30, Inkerman, etc., as there is no unambiguous description in the literature their actions and consequences, the results of the shelling.
      1. 0
        21 July 2019 23: 41
        Shirokorad "The Fleet That Destroyed Khrushchev". pp. 93-94. briefly:
        from July 5-17, Gustav (Dora) fired 48 shots at 7 targets in Sevastopol. The most successful shot was a direct hit to the tower battery number 30. Both battery towers were badly damaged by 60-cm German shells (Karl).
    3. -4
      22 July 2019 13: 42
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      And on the other hand, what huge resources are "buried" in these fortresses ... Resources could be used differently ...

      It was the French who invested correctly in the fortress - the Germans got stuck on the outer contour of Verdun, having arranged a long-term meat grinder.
      For money - let's turn to Yakovlev:
      The construction of the Verdun forts, including the reservation, according to the French engineer General Benois, cost from 1874 to 1914. 7 million francs, not counting the cost of ammunition and artillery weapons, and including them - 8 million francs. If we add to this the cost of the old fence and the citadel at prices of 127, then the total cost of Verdun is determined at 1914 - 165 million francs.

      The cost of Fort Duomont was determined by the French engineer Benois at 6 million francs (about 2 ¼ million pre-war rubles).
      (...)
      According to the estimates of the same engineer, Benoit, during the bombardment of the fort from October 8, 1914 to November 1917, he received at least 120000 hits, of which at least 2000 shells in caliber 28 cm, 30,5 cm, 38 cm and 42 see. Despite severe damage to the outer parts of the fort, the latter was still considered a defensive strong point and a good observation point. The cost of bombing the fort, according to the engineer Benoit, was 20 times higher than the cost of the fort itself, and therefore the fort paid off.

      That is, the cost of the bombing Fort Duomon alone was about 120 million francs - at a total cost the entire fortress of Verdun в 170 million francs.
      1. +3
        22 July 2019 14: 48
        All invested in fortresses, and many of them paid off.
        But not everyone was lucky that the positional front froze at this line for 4 years. Plus mistakes of the German strategy.
        Otherwise - mobezh number two. And now you would quote other quotes)
        By the way, it’s not a sin to recall the value of money in the era when Verdun was built in Pmv. This is also very different francs)
        1. -4
          22 July 2019 16: 50
          Quote: Hunghouse
          But not everyone was lucky that the positional front froze at this line for 4 years. Plus mistakes of the German strategy.

          Plus errors in the strategy of those who built these fortresses.
          For example, some four years before the war, some destroyed their only SD in the Western theater, turning the base units of the defense line into isolated fortresses.
          And the other managed to build the defense of the main fortresses in the direction of the main attack of the Germans from the "land battleships", spending a lot of money on this and getting neither a mouse, nor a frog, but an unknown animal. The long and dreary forts under construction were poorly protected against the growing siege artillery, and even unnaturally combined infantry fortifications and armored batteries. As a result, when the enemy completed the stage of preparation for the assault — the suppression of serf artillery, there was no one to resist it — the infantry fortifications were also destroyed.
          1. +5
            22 July 2019 19: 33
            What else ur?
            Confuse the war. Traditionally.
            But the system of fortresses was abolished in the 10th year, nevertheless, it was not, it affected only its individual elements. Before the war, reconstruction began.
            Mistakes were made in other countries.
            Opus about your understanding of the interaction of the fortress and ground forces omit)
            Ivangorod twice successfully interacted with field troops, no matter who, according to your theory, destroyed it. Osovets three times. And beneath the second, our 6-inch spoiled 2 big Berts. This is a separate conversation.
            Everything is somewhat more complicated)
            1. 0
              23 July 2019 18: 32
              Quote: Hunghouse
              What else ur?
              Confuse the war. Traditionally.

              Do you want to argue with Major General of the Russian Imperial Army, Lieutenant General of the Red Army, Doctor of Technical Sciences Yakovlev? wink
              As for the right bank, it remained completely without a fence, which was due to the following circumstance: in 1887, when the right-bank forts were in full swing of their construction, the old question arose, which was raised in 1873, about the creation of the Warsaw fortified area , in which Warsaw was to enter as one of the strongholds; two other strong points should be the fortifications of Novogeorgievsk expanded by that time and the small fortress Zegrz again proposed for construction (instead of Serotsk, referring to 1873, Fig. 98).

              And further:
              It was supposed to abolish Warsaw Fortified Area represented by the fortresses of Warsaw and Zegrza that formed it, leaving only the third fortress Novogeorgievsk, which can be reorganized into a vast modern fortress that can remain isolated in the initial period of the war until the armies have completed their concentration and deployment along the line of the improved Kovno fortress, the newly built Grodno fortress and improved Brest-Litovsk.

              Quote: Hunghouse
              But the system of fortresses was abolished in the 10th year, nevertheless it was not, it affected only its individual elements.

              Yep ... individual elements - in the form of the main elements of the Warsaw UR (two fortresses from three + separate forts and forts groups at the nodal points of the "triangle" of the UR). As a result, only the fortress of Novogeorgievsk remained of the entire UR.
              1. +1
                23 July 2019 22: 34
                What does Yakovlev have to do with it, you brought him as an accountant)
                What do you know about the fortress system and its reform in 1910-14?
  6. +6
    21 July 2019 09: 12
    The defense fight against attack is always impressive, especially if it is so massive
    Verdun - a symbol of not only the feat of France, but also such a struggle in the conditions of the 20th century
  7. +7
    21 July 2019 09: 41
    Waiting for the finale hi
  8. The comment was deleted.
    1. -2
      22 July 2019 18: 16
      Cons on the site why returned? Plus the article, minus those posts in the discussion that you don't like, that's all.
      1. +3
        22 July 2019 19: 05
        When, in fact, there’s nothing to answer, that’s where they minus the Bormanov’s hangers-on
      2. -2
        22 July 2019 19: 50
        First of all, I urge people to behave themselves. There should be an elementary level of culture and dignity. Cons do not vaccinate them.
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. The comment was deleted.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                    1. The comment was deleted.
            2. +2
              23 July 2019 00: 42
              And about the rest of your opus Red baron ....
              Such a verbose excuse only strengthens me in my opinion wink
              But unlike you, I will not make diagnoses in absentia - although it is clear that you are progressing with the naked eye)
              I won’t even turn somewhere - for it means turning to you)
              Just keep in mind that not only you are interested in technology, and you should not call for decency not to hat analysis and start from yourself
            3. 0
              23 July 2019 16: 00
              Quote: Red_Baron
              Honghouse, who are you anyway?

              In fact, if you do not like the mischief of the evil forum troll, then why feed it, entering into a dialogue? They occasionally run into different forums, sometimes they manage to rivet two or three dozen bots in a month, so do not pay attention to the minuses and pluses either.
              Quote: Red_Baron
              I am not familiar with Mr. Shpakovsky, perhaps in vain.

              Historian. The author of several books, as well as 1000+ articles here at VO. https://topwar.ru/user/kalibr/
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. The comment was deleted.
              3. 0
                24 July 2019 11: 14
                In fact, if you do not like the mischief of the evil forum troll, then why feed it, entering into a dialogue? They occasionally run into different forums, sometimes they manage to rivet two or three dozen bots in a month, so do not pay attention to the minuses and pluses either.

                you absolutely accurately described the behavior of your hypostases)
                and overall activities on this site and on some other
                and also introduced themselves)
    2. +2
      22 July 2019 18: 58
      And by what right do you blame the author for it?
      He, as we see, is not involved in the comments. Which is true.
      Otherwise, do not respect yourself. Is not it?
  9. +1
    23 July 2019 17: 19
    Thanks for the interesting informative cycle.
    Hello to the author!
    1. 0
      24 July 2019 08: 22
      I am pleased to join you!
  10. -1
    24 July 2019 08: 21
    About the initial speed.
    C 13, 380/45, a shell of 750 kg, a charge of 182 kg, a chamber volume of 270 cubic meters. dm, 3150 kg / sq.cm, 800 m / s;
    SKC 34, 380/52, shell 800 kg, charge 212 kg, chamber volume 319 cubic meters. dm, 3200 kg / sq. cm, 820 m / s.
    Where can C13 be extracted from 940 m / s?
    For comparison, in 15/42 with a projectile of 871 kg, the initial speed of 732 m / s.
    Well, with all my exceptional respect for Rdulovsky. How could he have accurate data on C1920 ballistics in 13?
    1. 0
      24 July 2019 10: 36
      Rdultovsky is a pro, and had all the numbers. As befits a specialist. 4 years separate writing work from the siege of Verdun. More than enough!
      and behind the pile it’s not clear where the figures of Grossvater (Aleksey) were taken from, they won’t be able to talk)
      We’ll ask the author somehow to send a page confirming the speed of 940 meters per second hi
      1. -1
        24 July 2019 11: 21
        Excuse me, did you read anything about naval artillery? 940 m / s even for a large-caliber light projectile, this is beyond the scope of the possible. Even at the speeds indicated by me, the barrel survivability did not exceed 300 shots.
        And by the way, sources are publicly available. Monographs on German battleships. The output data of publications, if necessary, I will indicate later. Simply, I always believed that this was publicly available and well-known information.
        Now the question is? And where did Rdulovsky actually know C 13 ballistics?
        Did he work in the archives of the German naval or military department? Or in the newspapers wrote about this? Yes, you never answered where the increase in initial speed could have come from. Chamber volumes, weight of shells, charges and barrel length are indicated.
        So, dear colleague, we read literature!
        1. +1
          24 July 2019 22: 02
          940 m / s even for a large-caliber light projectile, this is beyond the scope of the possible.

          why talk nonsense if a 380-mm cannon, which caused such keen interest, fired a projectile that could reach speeds even up to 1040 meters per second ??
          I do not understand these storms in a glass of water
          You know a dear colleague, I repeat once again that we are not a couple to Rdultovsky.
          All experts, those who are in the subject, knew at that time. Received information through high-quality channels, and 4 years for collecting material is more than enough.
          And it is not necessary in order to find out the initial velocity of the projectile to work in the archives) Have you been in the archive for a long time about this?)) That's right)))
          So we do not say nonsense and do not cast a shadow on well-deserved professionals.
          1. 0
            25 July 2019 19: 21
            Ohhh !!! What channel could the respected comrade Rdulovsky get information about the German naval cannon in 1920? This time. Next, please name at least one rifled gun, giving an initial speed of 45 s / s with a barrel length of 940 calibers. Estimate what pressure there should be. 3200 atm. at the beginning of the 940th century it is not just a lot, but a lot. For 4500 meters, you need at least 350. The survivability of trunks of this caliber did not exceed 940 shots, and at 70 there would be a maximum of 12. Do not forget, there is no autofretting yet. Let me remind you that the magnificent domestic 52/2800 pressure did not exceed 330 atm. Yes, she with a shell weighing 52 kg gave a very high NS, but with a barrel of XNUMX caliber.
            Let's recall the parameters of the guns of the first half of the XX century with an initial speed above 790 m / s.
            CANCER 40 of them is the shortest but it is 48 gauges. By the way, there is pressure under 4500 atm. KWK 42, it has a length of 70 calibers. ZiS 2 78 calibers. CANCER 43 71 caliber.
            Excuse me generously, but you are not at all oriented in engineering history. Now a lot of interesting literature has appeared. Read and you will be rewarded!
            1. +1
              27 July 2019 11: 36
              Ohhh !!! What channel could the respected comrade Rdulovsky get information about the German naval cannon in 1920

              do not open your mouth to comrade Rdultovsky. Growth did not come out.
              This "naval" gun was used in 1916 during the siege of Verdun. And in 4 years (1916-20), any normal person (not even a specialist), and even in a noninnocent age, is able to collect information.
              To learn about the direct sources of this pamphlet by divine engineer Rdultovsky, come from America and march to Leninka or the historian.
              Next is your
              Next, please name at least one rifled gun that gives an initial speed of 45 s / sec with a barrel length of 940 calibres. Estimate what pressure there should be. 3200 atm. at the beginning of the 940th century it is not just a lot, but a lot. For 4500 meters, you need at least 350. The survivability of trunks of this caliber did not exceed 940 shots, and at 70 there would be a maximum of 12. Do not forget, there is no autofretting yet. Let me remind you that the magnificent domestic 52/2800 pressure did not exceed 330 atm. Yes, she with a shell weighing 52 kg gave a very high NS, but with a barrel of XNUMX caliber.
              Let's recall the parameters of the guns of the first half of the XX century with an initial speed above 790 m / s.
              CANCER 40 of them is the shortest but it is 48 gauges. By the way, there is pressure under 4500 atm. KWK 42, it has a length of 70 calibers. ZiS 2 78 calibers. CANCER 43 71 caliber.

              Tell me, what is the use of empty reasoning (let us leave their contents to your conscience) if the 380 mm cannon, which caused such a violent reaction, gave not even 940, but 1040 meters per second ??
              Yes, it is this gun (we saw it above with your help and the help of your comrades). Which, according to your thoughtful calculations, was by no means capable of it))
              Excuse me generously, but you are not at all oriented in engineering history. Now a lot of interesting literature has appeared. Read and you will be rewarded!

              God will forgive! But I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that you do not understand anything at all.
              The main thing is to trample and collect. Sorry generously hi
              1. -3
                17 August 2019 11: 31
                This "naval" gun was used in 1916 during the siege of Verdun. And in 4 years (1916-20), any normal person (not even a specialist), and even in a noninnocent age, is able to collect information.

                But nothing that in these 4 years and WWI and Civil entered? So I imagine the oil painting. In 1916-20, General Rdultovsky wrote to Germany Krupp, and tell me the complete performance characteristics of your newest gun. To him in reply: please, all for your pleasure. To refer to the work of a wonderful professional - please, but damn it, 100 years have passed since then (all archives of the WWII period have long been open) and Rdultovsky’s mistakes (or even proofreading or typing) may well be.
                1. +2
                  18 August 2019 12: 02
                  But nothing that in these 4 years and WWI and Civil entered

                  Nothing. Specialists worked all the same. We worked with documents, periodicals came out. Both ours and western.
                  So I imagine the oil painting. In 1916-20, General Rdultovsky wrote to Germany Krupp, and tell me the complete performance characteristics of your newest gun. To him in reply: please, all for your pleasure.

                  Yes, you can imagine anything you want, your flight of fantasy is rich)
                  To refer to the work of a wonderful professional - please, but damn it, 100 years have passed since then (all archives of the WWII period have long been open) and Rdultovsky’s mistakes (or even proofreading or typing) may well be.

                  Yes, but you did not find mistakes from a wonderful professional.
                  You confuse the projectile speeds, not realizing that they are low for howitzer shells (it’s clear why) and high for cannon shells.
                  Conclusion - Rdultovsky pros, and like you, and after 100 years against him - no one good drinks
  11. 0
    18 August 2019 12: 43
    Quote: Adjutant
    You confuse the projectile speeds, not realizing that they are low for howitzer shells (it’s clear why) and high for cannon shells.

    Please quote my words about the velocity of the shells. You seem to have mixed up with someone.
    1. +1
      18 August 2019 19: 46
      Under one of the other nicknames above.
      Or do you have so many layers of personality that you don’t even mention everyone?)
  12. 0
    23 September 2019 17: 27
    Not far from Derazhny, near the village of Korichentsy there is a bunker, apparently machine-gun inside which is very crowded. His calculation fought, so you can see the hit of shells and excised by bullets. You can imagine what was happening inside when hit. Dust, splinters of concrete. But there is no one to ask.
  13. The comment was deleted.