The harmful myth of the mosquito fleet

340
Article “Intellectual impasse of the Russian fleet? No, the Russian society " raised the question of what society would like to receive from the Navy. But, since it was not written by the society, there was no answer in it, although later a number of responses followed.

It is worth understanding one simple thing: the answer in its simple form, which one person could give, is not. The fleet is the continuation of the policy and strategy of the country as a whole, relatively speaking, this is the policy embodied in the metal.



The harmful myth of the mosquito fleet

Operation Mantis is an example of the power of the mosquito fleet in battle with full


How would be solved the question of what kind of fleet we need in some ideal world, where decision makers know exactly what they want? The goals that a country should achieve in certain regions of the world in the next thirty to forty years, at least approximate, would be defined. Then, based on the General Staff, the political leadership would have to determine the list of military tasks that may have to be solved in order to achieve these political goals. Proceeding from this list, the General Staff (with the naval section), in cooperation with the General Staff of the Navy, would have to determine which part of these military tasks the fleet should solve.

Then it would be the turn of the Navy - knowing the approximate list of tasks that it would have to solve, the fleet would have to decide on the type and number of the ship’s personnel for this, and, starting from this, adjust the shipbuilding program for the tasks.

And then we would all know which fleet we need.

Of course, nothing would have been possible to foresee. Predictions of the future are a thankless task, even scientifically based. But to anticipate approximately - it would be quite possible.

In the absence of intelligible information “from above,” citizens may well make such an intellectual effort on their own and give an answer to the question “what do we want from the fleet?”, True to himself personally. If a large number of citizens do this, then a certain aggregate of people's expectations will turn out, which will quite objectively show what the population wants from the Navy, and these desires will actually be quite “legitimate” starting points for naval construction, at least one of them for sure.

In the meantime, there is nothing like that. The current decision-making system is very far from even normal logic, not to mention that it takes into account long-term political plans. Today there is no such accounting, but there are voluntaristic requirements of land officers of the General Staff, which the Navy, without bothering with anything, fulfills according to the principle “how much God will put it for everyone’s soul, if only everything converged in numbers”. For example, ships of the Buyan-M project 21361 appeared - a reaction to the GSH requirement to ensure the use of cruise missiles from specialized rocket ships on the one hand, and fleet awareness of budget constraints on the other. But this is wrong, it is the amoeba’s reaction according to the principle “I was pricked - I squeezed,” but everything should really start from the strategic priorities of the country as a whole.

We show how much the results of such a “strategy” can differ depending on the boundary conditions.

Assume that the SVR and the GRU independently receive information that NATO is planning a land invasion of Russia. We are not going to evaluate now whether this is real or not (unrealistic and impossible, but this is not the point), but let us estimate what our fleet should have been if “reincarnation” of the Great Patriotic War awaits us. Let's practice, so to speak, the brain with an abstract exercise. And we need a fleet in this case, which is able, firstly, to provide amphibious assault forces to help the army, secondly, to repel massive air strikes against convoys and ship groups, and thirdly, to provide guaranteed escorting along the coast when the enemy attempted to impose a blockade against us, to ensure the possibility of military transportation, and to keep important sea communications for Russia, primarily with Kaliningrad, the NSR, the Chukotka-Kamchatka-Primorye and Okhotsk lines th sea in general. And also able to prevent the enemy from landing. Of particular importance will be mine defense, and mine action forces in the fleet will be very impressive, along with landing and escort forces.

Or an alternative example. Russia is planning a pre-emptive nuclear strike on the United States. What do we need in this case? Then we need a fleet that can secretly detect and, by order of destroying, American SSBNs, secretly deploying high-precision carriers into the sea. weapons (even submarines, even surface ships) capable of delivering precise "surgical" strikes across the United States, destroying radar systems of SPRN systems, command posts, communications infrastructure with submarines, leaders threatening the fleet Aviation (anti-submarine) to provide the Strategic Rocket Forces enough time gain for a massive strike. At the same time, there are no alternatives to the fleet - there are no other forces that can fight submarines and hide in trade traffic with a supply of missiles on board, and so for weeks before receiving a command to strike, there is no one.

It is easy to see that we need different fleets in different cases, and this is normal - the fleet should be built “under strategy”, with an eye on political goals, and those military tasks that need to be solved in order to achieve them.

In fact, you have to have “in reserve” strength for many variants of events, but you still need to build on real tasks.

However, without being able to determine exactly how the Navy should be, we know exactly what it should not be. Not knowing exactly which image of the Navy will be optimal for the country, we know for sure a number of mistakes that cannot be made.

One of these mistakes is the orientation towards the so-called “mosquito fleet” - naval forces consisting of small warships with a small displacement - various kinds of combat boats, small rocket ships and the like. This idea, contradicting both domestic and foreign combat experience, as well as contradicting military science, has gained strange popularity in recent years. It is necessary to dissect it and show its utopianism in order to avoid the further spread of this malicious concept.

Ups and downs of small ships


Man like stories about how the weak defeated the strong. They like it because, according to the apt expression of one intelligent person, “this means that the intelligent has won the strong”, and empathy for such a phenomenon is embedded in us by evolution - we have succeeded as a form, winning the brute force with the mind. We are so arranged biologically. Initially, all the sympathy for small ships, supposedly capable of bravely go out to sea and sink an aircraft carrier there - they are from there. We just want to believe in it, and many lack the will to face the truth and admit that there is nothing behind this desire.

At the same time, a different press works, served by the Department of Information and Mass Communications of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, which joyfully praises any new ship as if it were the “Death Star”. New IRA? "The Death Star"! Another new IRA? Another "Death Star", even more deadly than before! Patrol ship? "Death Star" is doubly!

Of course, if we were building massively frigates, the main pressure of propaganda would be on the murderous super power of frigates. But we have massively built IRAs. And people who are unable to navigate the technical and tactical nuances, but who have confidence in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation as a public institution, believe in the power of RTOs. In the current "edition" of "mosquito" fleet. Looking ahead, we note that “this is all here” does not come from the Navy, it is almost impossible to find an officer in the military service who sincerely believes in the omnipotence of ships with a displacement of up to 1000 tons, although opinions on their values ​​can be very different.

Let's finally figure out how it is there in reality.

Historically there were two periods when a small surface ship, armed with the latest technology, turned out to be radically superior to the "ordinary" large surface combat ship. The first time was when the first torpedoes were invented, or as they were called in those days - self-propelled mines. In the last quarter of the XIX century, small ships, armed with torpedoes, did bring fear to the enemy, as it turned out that the previously built warships were often powerless against them.

But soon, with the change of generations of warships in large fleets, the superiority of the "destroyers" evaporated - the shipbuilders adapted to the new threat, such things as anti-torpedo nets appeared that allowed the ship to be protected from being defeated by the "missed" torpedo, rapid-fire guns appeared, allowing to shoot the attacker of the destroyer, increased the range of real fire ship artillery, the large ships increased speed, which sometimes allowed to evade torpedo attacks by maneuvering, were worked out with Corresponding tactics, became much stronger than the body, appeared anti-torpedo protection.

In the first quarter of the next, XX century, the destroyers, who were the main carriers of torpedoes, have firmly taken their place "on the sidelines" after large artillery ships. The Second World War showed that the main weapon of a non-avianosnogo surface ship is a gun. In the same war, it turned out that high-speed and maneuverable torpedo boats are incapable of harming the combat surface ships of large displacement. The Soviet experience with katerniki, desperately trying to sink small transport in the Black Sea and the Baltic should not deceive anyone - the largest warship Kriegsmarine, which they sank, he actually was a torpedo corvette, although the Germans classified it differently.

The take-off of small torpedo ships was short.

Not less short was the second period, when for a moment by historical standards. Small ships again became a significant force. This is the beginning of the era of anti-ship cruise missiles.

The beginning of this era loudly, to the whole world, was announced by the Egyptian Navy, which sank the Israeli destroyer Eilat with Soviet anti-ship missiles P-1967 in 15, launched from the Soviet missile boats. A little later, in the 1971 year, the Indian Navy, with the help of again Soviet missile boats, caused great losses to the Pakistani Navy, and carried out a successful raid on Karachi, using the anti-ship missiles to strike ground-based high-contrast targets in the port (fuel tanks).

Then the whole world hit the rocket theme, some small rocket ships and boats after others were created in NATO countries, even the US did not stand aside, creating a very effective Pegasus, but ... active interference put the effectiveness of the missiles "into question" already in 1973, in the course of the sea battles of the next Arab-Israeli war, when not a single Arab missile hit the target - the Israeli boats took them all into a disturbance. Since 1973, no anti-ship missiles hit the ship covered with interference. Small URO ships — boats or ISCs, still remained dangerous for any surface ship that would be in danger, but there was never such a “one-sided game”, as with the Eilat case, and the growth of power warships from the end of 70-x many times ahead of that for small ones.

In addition, the main enemy of surface ships in the war at sea, aviation, turned out to be truly deadly precisely against the "mosquito" forces, to a much greater degree than against large surface ships.

The rise of the power of small ships ended before it could begin.

And the combat experience is confirmed.

"Mosquito" forces in battle


Today, there are three vivid examples of how modern "mosquito" fleets have manifested themselves in battle with modern surface forces and aircraft.

The first of these was Operation Morvarid (Persian. "Pearl") - the destruction of most of the Iraqi fleet by Iranian aviation at the beginning of the Iran-Iraq war of 1980.

It was just a classic example of the collapse of popular ideas about the subject in Russia. The Iraqi fleet consists of missile and torpedo boats, operates in its coastal waters, is protected by fighter aircraft, which are on duty at the airfields located near. Familiar? This is so many people see the successful defense of their shores.

But alas. At first, the enemy concentrates the obviously large aviation forces that the defender has in the area, disables the airfield, gets a short-term opportunity to act unrestrictedly on the defender's waters, then, in the best traditions of Russian ideas about the subject, the Iranian corvette drowns with its missile boats what appear the planes and destroy 80% of the Iraqi Navy, including all the naval forces involved in the operation. Nothing helped - neither the presence of an airfield with air defense fighters, nor in time (the keyword!) Arrived to the aid of more modern interceptors from other airfields.


Iranian "Phantom" with rockets "Maverick" - the executioner of the mosquito fleet of Iraq


The result - the defeat of the sea, the bonus - the objects of Iraq’s oil production destroyed by the “commandos”. The “mosquito” fleet, in number comparable to the number of small surface ships that we have, for example, on the Black Sea, was destroyed in about five minutes. Not an hour, not half an hour. During the attack, lasting for five (and in fact even less) minutes. Without taking into account the flying time of the aircraft, of course.

The second time the “mosquito” fleet was able to prove itself in all its glory during the American operation “Fire on the Prairie” against Libya in 1986.

24 March 1986, the American Air Force began to strike at Libyan forces at sea. On the night of March 25, the Libyan MRC of 1234 Ain Zakit was discovered by the DRLO plane. That day the Americans attacked this ship. First, the MRK received a hit released from the deck attack aircraft of the RCC "Harpoon", then, the already burning MRK was finished off with bombs and sank.


IRC project 1234E "Ein Zakit", 25 March, 1986, morning


A little later, another second missile of the same project, Ein Mara, was hit by another missile, which received heavy damage. Another victim of the Intruder was a missile boat of French construction, also sunk. There were no casualties among the Americans; they did not open fire on them. It is worth noting that at the time of their attack by the Americans, the cruiser URO "Yorktown" was in the affected area of ​​both ISCs. But they did not even see him, and did not try to attack. Soon the Americans began to attack the Libyan territory. The mosquito fleet did not just help, it didn’t show itself at all.


Former "Ein Mara", and then "Tariq ibn Ziyad". Libyan RTO, survivor of the hit "Harpoon"


The third example of the fact that small ships are powerless against a full-fledged fleet was given by the Iranians. During the American operation “Mantis” in 1988, when the United States set out to end the “tanker war” in the Persian Gulf and mine Iranian neutral waters, they sent a group of warships there to “educate” the Iranians, who were the main “instigators” of attacks on tankers with oil and mining. For the Americans, this was the first naval battle since the Second World War.

18 April 1988, the Americans destroyed the artillery platform in the sea, which Iran used as stationary bases. After that, Iranian motor boats with light weapons began shelling tankers in the Persian Gulf. One of the motorboats was sunk by deck aviation, the others retreated. Immediately behind this, the Iranian Navy's small missile corvette “Joshan” (essentially a rocket boat with a displacement of 265 tons, armed with “Harpoon” missiles) attempted to attack the cruiser URO Wainwright.

However, the cruiser took away the Iranian anti-ship missile with jamming and a retaliatory missile strike and sank the Iranian ship. The Iranians tried to strike the cruiser with a pair of "Phantoms", but they did not break through anti-aircraft fire, then the American compound tried to attack two Iranian small (1100 tons, slightly more than the IRC "Karakurt") missile ships, which, however, in Iran considered frigates. The result - one is sunk by deck aviation, the other is destroyed by it, but towed to the port.


Iranian 1100-ton "frigate" "Sahand". Close to the displacement of our new IRAs. After air strike


Mosquito fleet again did not pay off.

It was natural. Large surface ships have much more powerful radars capable of detecting a target from such a distance from which no corvette or MRK will find anything, large surface ships are slightly farther away than the radio horizon due to the greater height at which the radar antennas are located, it has an incomparably better jamming complex . And against aviation, "toy" SAMs of small ships are almost useless.



The main American instrument of war at sea in those years - A-6 "Intruder" with the RCC "Harpoon"


What conclusions can be drawn from all the above examples? And the conclusions are: the “mosquito” fleet can only do something when the newest small ships equipped with the newest weapons collide in battle with ships built according to the technologies of the previous era. Both Eilat and Pakistani ships belonged to the era of the Second World War, and the Soviet-era RCA was the newest at that time, like their missiles. It is necessary only to reduce the gap in technology, as the effectiveness of mosquito fleet admiring contemporaries immediately disappears, and the superiority of other forces in weapons begins to work, in the range of detection and hitting the target, in survivability.

In addition, the battles after 1973 clearly show that, firstly, anti-ship missiles do not break through interference, and secondly, small ships sometimes cannot detect a target in time - so the Libyans couldn’t detect Yorktown in time. This is also very significant.

But maybe these are Arabs and Persians, such useless warriors, and the experience of the USSR speaks of some other results? Not really.

Soviet experience


For the time being, the Soviet Navy did not have aircraft carriers, did not develop any offensive doctrines, and did not seek to obtain expeditionary capabilities. Although the operation had to be carried out in Africa. The main tasks in the Navy during the Cold War was to deter the enemy (US) from aggression. It must be said that until a certain moment the fleet strategy, invented by SG Gorshkov, worked perfectly. The Navy carried out US nuclear deterrence with the help of ballistic missiles equipped with SSBNs, and at the “local” level restrained the US Navy, keeping the Americans at gunpoint. The direct tracking ship was supposed to follow the American ships, ensuring the issuance of target designation to shock forces that were at a safe distance. Such a scheme, although it “gave up” by suicide for a tracking ship, but for many years it provided serious pressure on the enemy.

At the same time, the most interesting thing is where the Soviet Navy was going to give the Americans the first battle.

Soviet strategists proceeded from the fact that war would develop from a political crisis into a full-scale conflict very quickly, and it would be impossible to deploy fleet forces at dangerous for the USSR theater of operations. Therefore, the fleet had to be deployed in advance. Within the framework of this concept, the USSR kept combat-ready forces ready to join the battle immediately in all theaters, from where it could be attacked by the Americans and their allies. These forces were reduced to operational squadrons (opsk) non-permanent composition. Here is their list with the regions for which they were responsible:

5-I operational squadron - the Mediterranean Sea;
7-I operational squadron - the Atlantic Ocean;
8-I operational squadron - the Indian Ocean and the Persian Gulf;
10-I operational squadron - Pacific;
17-I Squadron - South China Sea (based on Cam Ranh, Vietnam)

We will not now find out whether that strategy was correct. There were also doubtful moments. Another thing is important - the Soviet Navy saw with the key to solving the country's defense problems the removal of defensive lines to where the enemy was going to accumulate forces and from where he was going to beat - to the far sea and ocean zones. Even sea rocket-carrying aircraft in the late 80-x received a “long arm” - the missile-carrier Tu-95K-22, armed with anti-ship missiles X-22. Admiral S.G. Gorshkov rightly characterized the fleet under his leadership as “oceanic, nuclear-missile”. If the USSR had existed for another ten years, a third one would inevitably be added to these two characteristics - “aircraft carrier”.


Mosquito fleet, speak? ..


Small ships in the USSR Navy, however, were, but as part of a “large” fleet with limited missions. First, in the USSR, there were IPC - small anti-submarine ships, whose task was the PLO in the coastal and near-sea zones and ensuring the actions of nuclear submarines (the ocean component) at the exit from the bases. Secondly, the RCA and the IRAs, of which there were a lot in the Soviet Navy, as it were, were “propped up” by the ocean fleet, and contributed to the fact that it could carry out its tasks.

For example, while the TFR, destroyers and cruisers carried combat services in the central part of the Mediterranean Sea, occasionally showing up in the western, MRKs could hide in the Aegean Sea, among numerous islets, forming another defensive echelon. Similarly, in the Northern Fleet, while naval missile-carrying aircraft, surface fleets and submarines attacked NATO's naval forces in the Barents Sea, RTOs could conduct raid operations in the Norwegian fjords, in search of enemy ships hiding there. There were similar developments for the Kuril Islands. The Soviet "mosquito" fleet actually existed, but as part of the "ocean, nuclear missile."

The Navy did not fight at sea with an equal adversary, but theoretical developments of the fleet, the experience of the exercises, both with real maneuvering of ships and command and staff, showed that the combat stability of ships of the near sea zone without a squad of forces delivered to the far sea zone is not provided. And it is true that any nuclear submarine can, while in the submarine sound channel, track the movement of enemy ships from tens of kilometers or more, having flown from “dangerous” depth, it can attack BMZ ships with torpedoes and anti-ship missiles, and break away from pursuit of “jerk” with care safe distance.

What is needed to prevent her from raiding? It is necessary to sink it in the DMZ, either with its own submarines, or with the patrol aircraft, or with the DMZ surface ships.

What did the typical outfit of forces look like that ensured the release of the SSBN from the base during the threatened period, given the presence of the enemy at the range of his weapon use? First, from a brigade (6 units) to two (12 units) small anti-submarine ships - the IPC. They would force out, attacking by means of the weapon, or would drown enemy submarines in an ambush on exits from base or bases. Secondly, the very forces in the far sea zone - TFR. Etc. 1135 are high-speed and dangerous submarine hunters, with good speed to the same. About 3 units in our case. Aviation - about the regiment of anti-submarine aircraft, possibly a mixed air regiment - airplanes and helicopters. DEPL brigade, from 6-t of ambush submarines in narrow places in places where an enemy submarine can “slip” into a protected area where deployment takes place.

It is not difficult to see that these are just anti-submarine forces, ensuring the release of SSBNs from bases, and no more. And representatives of the "mosquito" fleet in the composition of these forces are, but they are not limited to.


Useful still small anti-submarine ship


And in the DMZ, there are already other forces — multipurpose submarines to protect SSBNs, providing air defense interceptors in the air, destroyers and missile cruisers to retain dominance at sea and not allow adversaries to hold water areas, and so on.

As can be seen, even in the USSR Navy, where all sorts of small warships flourished and massively stood in the ranks, they were not limited to one thing, and they were not even close to the main kind of forces in the Navy.

Just because a single “mosquito” fleet cannot really do anything, cannot even defend itself, and even less a country. This was confirmed by Soviet theoretical developments, this was confirmed by foreign combat experience.

And today this point of view is still valid.

Rocket gunboats and patriotic myths


The history of the return of such a class of ships as the IRA was discussed in the article “Does the fleet need small rocket ships?” In short, as is well known, the Main Command of the Navy today is not a full-fledged body of military control, no single fleet commandand the powers of seafarers regarding the development of TTZ for new ships are somewhat limited - the question of what to build for them may well be “adjusted” by the General Staff, acting according to its own, “land-based” understanding.

As a result, the Navy at a certain point in time received from the GSH the requirement to ensure the use of long-range cruise missiles from "specialized rocket ships." Assessing economic restrictions, the Navy did not come up with anything better than writing a TTZ on a hybrid of a small artillery ship for rivers and shallow water (the Buyan 21360 project) and the installation of a vertical launch of 3С-14 missiles. Along the way, a new ship, in accordance with the trends, received imported diesel engines. So was born the project 21361 "Buyan-M" - the very ships that were allowed to "Calibres" on targets in Syria.

I must say that it would be possible to start up the Calibers from modernized submarines and from modernized surface ships of old types, from more or less multi-purpose corvettes - if someone had built them. But the issues of modernization of the available ships and submarines "under the" Caliber "of the Navy did not bother absolutely. As a result, it all ended with the construction of highly specialized "UCSS carriers", expensive, non-seizure, with engines under sanctions. The next “iteration” of the MRK - the 22800 “Karakurt” project is nothing more than an attempt to fix the obvious gaps in the 21361 program, taking into account the situation with diesel engines for “Karakurt” - an attempt that is clearly not successful. It would seem that there is no reason for delight, but here our press clearly overdid it, praising these "kids."

Obsessive advertising of what supernatural new IRAs made the masses not only believe in it, but also surround this conceptually outdated class of ships with a whole host of legends. Legends of the super powerful mosquito fleet took their places in shaky minds, gave rise to a stratum of narrow-minded ideas irrelevant to reality relating to naval construction, and these ideas, in full accordance with VI. Lenin, have become a material force. And now Russia is focused on RTOs.

On the other hand, it is worthwhile to dismantle the myths made by the honorable public in the operation of this class of ships.

Myth1. IRAs can quietly reach the line of launching missiles on an aircraft carrier. The answer is no, the aircraft carrier is attacking the coast from the far sea zone and continuously maneuvering. IRAs will not hijack him, and he will not be able to use a weapon at a great roll. A carrier - can.

Myth 2. IRAs can reach a surface target from thousands of kilometers. The answer is no, missiles designed to strike ground targets fly several thousand kilometers, anti-ship missiles do not fly at such a distance. This is due to the need to have a heavy GOS on board the missile, and, as a result, the lack of space for fuel. Approximately 380 kilometers range of the "anti-ship" "Caliber", no more.

Myth 3. The various types of radar radar systems will be able to give the target radar target, which it can shoot at safe distances. The answer is no, SGRLS does not provide sufficiently accurate information about the “contact”, it is impossible to get information about the movement parameters of the target (course, speed) through it, sufficiently accurate to use a rocket attack with their help.

Myth 4. The 21361 IRAs can launch missiles through ships and "keep the US Navy at bay." The answer is only with an external DD, by itself it cannot launch missiles at surface ships. Sad right?

It would be possible to continue for a long time, but it makes no sense - those who liked the idea of ​​super-rationality and the incredible utility of the mosquito fleet may already begin to think. Although, for example, another representative of the "mosquito" fleet - a small anti-submarine ship, the IPC, could be much more useful.

Сonclusion


So does Russia need a "mosquito fleet"? Partly. In the correct version, there would be a certain OVR corvette capable of fighting a submarine, having an advanced air defense system, a weapon and not very expensive. But in general, we urgently need anti-submarine ships - corvettes and frigates. Our main enemy in BMZ is not surface ships, but submarines and partly aircraft. It is here that our small ships must be focused on fighting them.

Strikes on surface ships are the 1 number only in the Baltic, which may require it to create certain types of ships, for example, modern high-speed subtle rocket boats. But this is an exception acting on a specific theater, and there is no need to make any global conclusions. Mostly need precisely anti-battleheads. Mosquito fleet in Russia may well exist, but firstly, it will be auxiliary (to ensure the same output of the submarine from the bases, to guard convoys and amphibious units at transitions), and secondly, mainly anti-submarine. The new small ships of the future will have a powerful air defense system, which is much more powerful than the existing IPC or IRAs have. This is due to the increase in air power of our potential opponents.

But the most important thing to remember is: this mosquito fleet will under no circumstances become the basis of the military power of the Navy. The idea of ​​betting on it or being limited to small ships is inoperative and unable to lead to anything except heavy and insulting losses.

Any other statement is no more than another myth.
340 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. The comment was deleted.
  2. The comment was deleted.
    1. +5
      24 June 2019 06: 35
      In the end, he completely killed ... ". New small ships of the future will have powerful air defense, much more powerful than the existing IPC or MRK. This is due to the growth of air power of our potential adversaries" .... Where to put there, then .. .?
      1. +22
        24 June 2019 07: 08
        Dmitry, will they be able to perform MRC tasks (even new ones) in 4-5?
        Which ships are capable of maintaining the security of bases in Syria, and
        (why not) in the Caribbean. Or we will be engaged in "coastal" sailing.
        The author touched upon a VERY painful topic - the problems of the Navy are being solved TODAY by "infantrymen" who are far from understanding the tasks (sometimes their own).
        1. +9
          24 June 2019 08: 58
          Quote: knn54
          Will they be able to perform MRC tasks (even new ones) in 4-5?

          Destroyers in a storm hard
          1. +3
            24 June 2019 22: 46
            Storm 3-4 points, a frigate of the Orly Burke type chats and the aircraft carrier is on rails, people on the flight deck and on the island did not even budge.
            1. 0
              25 June 2019 00: 44
              Where is the storm?
        2. +13
          24 June 2019 10: 46
          Quote: knn54
          Dmitry, will they be able to perform MRC tasks (even new ones) in 4-5?

          I saw an expert assessment of fleet officers 4 a year ago at an exhibition in St. Petersburg that ships of less than 4 thousand tons in the Federation Council have incomplete combat value. It is optimal to have ships on this theater of 4-10 size in thousand tons. Smaller ships will not be able to participate in fleet operations, I even have sufficient speed, range and autonomy, since they will be of limited combat capability (they will not be able to use weapons, equipment in the open sea, to carry out operations on loading supplies and fuel).
          The habitability is the same important parameter, on a ship with a displacement of less than 4 thousand tons it is difficult to create conditions for a long stay at sea. In fact, in this assessment, the boundary is given for the Federation Council, from what size the ship is considered mosquito. As it turned out, this is all that is less than a frigate. Those. Our supercorsets, MRK, IPC are the same mosquito fleet. Considering that the Pacific Ocean is even more turbulent than the Arctic, I think that the requirements there will be similar.
          It is very disturbing that we are not building special high-speed fleet supply vehicles. Without them, what could be operations at sea? Syria, by the way, is an example.
        3. +9
          24 June 2019 11: 53
          Quote: knn54
          Dmitry, will they be able to perform MRC tasks (even new ones) in 4-5?

          The comment is not quite on the topic, but as an illustration. A couple of years ago, our ministers shouted loudly about the resumption of production of the PLO A-40 aircraft. This is an amphibian. It became interesting to me and I conducted a study on how far an amphibious aircraft can be in demand. Those. Can he really sit in the water? And it turned out that at the Federation Council and the Pacific Fleet it has a theoretical opportunity to sit on the water due to weather conditions for a total of no more than 1-1,5 months per year, on the Baltic 2-3 months per year, and on the Black Sea 4-5 months year Here is a story.
          1. +2
            24 June 2019 20: 53
            And if, when landing, a log hits a barrel ...
          2. +3
            25 June 2019 20: 12
            Quote: Alex_59
            It became interesting to me and I conducted a study on how far an amphibious aircraft can be in demand. Those. Can he really sit in the water? And it turned out that at the Federation Council and the Pacific Fleet it has a theoretical opportunity to sit on the water due to weather conditions for a total of no more than 1-1,5 months per year, on the Baltic 2-3 months per year, and on the Black Sea 4-5 months year Here is a story.

            Pff ... when after the arrival of Shoigu, the Be-200 was ordered for the Navy (which, as a result, was not built, and the money was returned through the court) and began to design the aerodromes, then all the aerodromes had to be planned for a full-fledged runway meteorological problems. As a result, the basing of seaplanes turned out much more expensive than the usual patrolmen, who also had a large weight return.
            1. -3
              26 June 2019 18: 07
              In Russia, tricks with hydroaviation do not work - the climate. What is the point of having a plane that flies only in summer?

              Now if you conquer the world, then yes, you can not do laughing
          3. +2
            25 June 2019 21: 36
            Quote: Alex_59
            I conducted a study on how much an amphibious Aerospace Plane could be in demand. Those. Can he really sit in the water? And it turned out that at the Federation Council and the Pacific Fleet it has a theoretical opportunity to sit on the water due to weather conditions for a total of no more than 1-1,5 months per year, on the Baltic 2-3 months per year, and on the Black Sea 4-5 months year Here is a story.

            The Japanese amphibious aircraft (rescue and anti-submarine) took off and landed at 6 points. As you probably guessed, in the Pacific.
            1. -3
              26 June 2019 18: 08
              Is there a video? Just six balls, it's hoo. Although with the automation of landing, probably the crest of the wave can be caught. But take off ...
              1. +1
                26 June 2019 20: 26
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Is there a video? Just six balls, it's hoo. Although with the automation of landing, probably the crest of the wave can be caught. But take off ...

                The PS-1 (US-1) aircraft provided take-off and landing at waves up to 3 m and winds up to 15 nodes.
                Or lead operational takeoff and landing with 4 points.
                This is for serial, experienced sat down and took off at 5 and 6 points. But there are other pilots.
        4. +1
          25 June 2019 07: 35
          I agree with the author. ISCs and the IPC have the right to exist but without fanaticism. The basis of our fleet should be frigates and corvettes from the side, since the combat value of the corvette is not much higher than the IRAs due to weak air defense
        5. +2
          25 June 2019 10: 01
          Navy must be balanced. We need all types of ships including mosquito fleet. Before the war, we had an imbalance with mine-sweeping forces, and what happened can be judged at least by the passage of the Baltic Fleet Tallinn-Kronstadt.
      2. +4
        24 June 2019 07: 54
        Quote: 210ox
        In the end, he completely killed ... ". New small ships of the future will have powerful air defense, much more powerful than the existing IPC or MRK. This is due to the growth of air power of our potential adversaries" .... Where to put there, then .. .?

        as on the large landing craft, they will distribute "needles" and "willows" to the crew. Yes
        1. -2
          26 June 2019 18: 10
          There are guns on BDK, on ​​the same 775's. And this is more severe than Eagle and Verb.
      3. +15
        24 June 2019 08: 56
        Well, where on the ISC 22800 armor set? Where on the corvette with VI 2500 tons (20385) put a full-fledged SAM and 16 cells in UVP?
      4. +3
        24 June 2019 19: 30
        Yeah, Alexander brought with a powerful air defense on littoral ships ...
        If this is the way to approach the issue, then we will have our modern, super-expensive and over-packed corvettes.
        If we do the IPC, even in the displacement of the corvette, then for the air defense it is "Pantsir-M" - with its head! With a range of damage up to 40 km. and heights up to 15 km. that's more than enough. These are the characteristics of the Buk-2M, by the way.
        Cannon, "Package" ammunition, maybe more and missile-torpedoes, even if in inclined launchers.
        AND GOOD GAK!
        And that's it!
        Cheap, angry, functional.
        It is the "powerful air defense" that makes the BMZ warship so much more complicated and more expensive, which, by definition, should be inexpensive. These ships will operate primarily in BMZ, which means they will be covered by basic fighter aircraft. Therefore, there is no need to overload these workhorses of the Navy with the Polyment and Redet. But the means of electronic warfare cannot be deprived of them. No way.
        After the infamous death of the INF Treaty, the role of IRAs as carriers of "Caliber" for ground targets looks more and more doubtful. But as carriers of "Onyxes" and even "Zircons" with external target designation, they will still serve.
        1. 0
          24 June 2019 20: 55
          If we do the IPC, even in the displacement of the corvette, then for the air defense it is "Pantsir-M" - with its head!


          From billion per set wink
          1. +2
            24 June 2019 21: 21
            I didn’t think so badly about "Pantsir-M" ... But anything cheaper and more compact "Polyment-Reduta".
            I would like to see it not only on ISCs, but also on promising IPC / corvettes and even on specialized PLO frigates I wanted.
            I have already said more than once that for the Northern and Pacific fleets for PLO we need not corvettes with a displacement of 2000 - 2500 tons, but frigates with a displacement of 4000 - 4500 tons - according to the conditions of the required seaworthiness. They should not be generalists, like "Gorshkov", but sharpened specifically for PLO:
            - good GAK;
            - "Package" with a large bookmaker;
            - rocket-torpedoes;
            - SAM "Pantsir-M";
            - as an option, you can place the anti-ship missiles X-35 - for self-defense;
            - helicopter ...
            As a basis, you can take the body 11356, GEM from 22350, which will ensure unification and good speed.
            As a result, we get an inexpensive PLO frigate, with good seaworthiness, autonomy, habitability, capable, if necessary, to function as an escort frigate ... and at the price of 20380 \ 20385 corvettes.
            Such ships should be engaged in PLO and issued in a wide series. Of course, not to the detriment of 22350 and 22350 plans.
            1. +1
              24 June 2019 22: 07
              I didn’t think so badly about "Pantsir-M" ... But anything cheaper and more compact "Polyment-Reduta".


              Well, there is not a Poliment-Redoubt, but simply a Redoubt. Compatible even with the old radar, and with the new Redoubt missiles. There is much cheaper.

              The Pacific fleets for PLO do not need corvettes with a displacement of 2000 - 2500 tons, but frigates of 4000 - 4500 tons with a displacement - according to the conditions of the required seaworthiness. They should not be generalists, like "Gorshkov", but sharpened specifically for PLO:


              I agree and this is obvious. I hope that after the launch of the "big" frigates 22350M, we will see a simple PLO frigate to help us.
              I really hope so.
              1. +1
                24 June 2019 22: 38
                Quote: timokhin-aa

                Well, there is not a Poliment-Redoubt, but simply a Redoubt. Compatible even with the old radar, and with the new Redoubt missiles. There is much cheaper.

                It’s not just about the radar, but about the missiles. The "Shell" is much cheaper, moreover, two or three varieties. For a "budgetary" air defense system you could not imagine better. In addition, unification - there will be a lot of bets on his campaign, and due to the mass scale, the price should also fall in price. In addition, he also has cannons that can work out against surface targets.
                1. -2
                  25 June 2019 13: 58
                  The shell is not the most effective missiles, if that. However, this is a holivarny question, what kind of air defense missile system to have on the ship BMZ, it is better to stop)))
            2. 0
              25 June 2019 07: 52
              The 11356 project is not a frigate sooner than a corvette, in the modern military doctrine there is a buildup of the so-called corvettes of the 20380 project for displacement overtook 7 series destroyers. The lethal ships have a narrow list of security guards for military bases and large surface patrols during deployment.
              1. 0
                25 June 2019 12: 28
                Quote: insafufa
                Project 11356 is not a frigate before the corvette

                11356 is an export frigate, delivered to India and they are happy with them. For the Russian Navy, they were built as a forced measure due to delays from 22350 (due to the unavailability of the Polyment-Reduta).
                My suggestion is to take CASE 11356 as a basis. But at the same time, supply it with a GOOD HAK, from the same 22350, instead of "Calm" put "Pantsir-M", load missile torpedoes in the UVP. As a result, we get a good anti-submarine frigate / quite acceptable escort frigate. And this, by the way, is their (frigates) main function. By the way, the ability to charge "Caliber" or "Onyx" into the UVP will remain, albeit as an option for special cases.
                The result is an excellent submarine frigate at the price of 17 - 18 billion rubles. a displacement of 4000 - 4500 t., with good seaworthiness and habitability, the frigate, the construction of which is well mastered by the industry, has all the rigging and stocks, as well as skills. Therefore, they will be built quickly - to the delight of the fleet.
        2. +3
          24 June 2019 22: 16
          I completely agree, but I would like to add: two guns already enter the Pantsir-M, which means you can save space and displacement on it; You must have a UAV.
          1. 0
            24 June 2019 22: 42
            UAVs are now being cobbled even on IRAs, without them.
    2. +12
      24 June 2019 06: 50
      Your cue is just a shame. Thank God - the competent person spoke: competently, convincingly, with examples. Upstairs, this article will not be able to change anything (yes, only death can change something), but thinking people can understand something and straighten out their point of view.
      And in vain - do not remember ...
    3. +4
      24 June 2019 07: 00
      I am not an expert, but in my opinion the article is interesting, so I wanted to substantively find out what you disagree with the author.
    4. +13
      24 June 2019 07: 08
      And I liked the article. Author deserved respect. good
    5. +4
      24 June 2019 07: 12
      Can you explain? Or - How did I say?
      1. +8
        24 June 2019 07: 46
        Quote: YOUR
        Can you explain? Or - How did I say?

        How can I explain? Here you need to refute every line!
        All is not true! Starting from how everything relates to the General Staff and about the presence of the shipbuilding program - all lies or the lack of information of the author. There is no such thing - a mosquito fleet. If you really want to always pour dirt on your country, and the West is always praising - look at the displacement and combat capabilities of the main NATO ships and compare with ours. Yes, we do not yet have such aircraft carriers as the United States, and this is very unfortunate, but we cannot yet afford them (we don’t want, but we can’t) for a variety of reasons.
        Plus, at this historical stage, our fleet is defensive (not offensive).
        As for "Myths 1,2,4, 3, XNUMX" - just a lie. "Myth-XNUMX" - MRK and ZGRLS are not connected. Over-the-horizon radars are not intended for control centers.
        Etc. Here you need to refute the entire article.
        I am a current naval officer. If you have specific questions, please reply as possible.
        1. +15
          24 June 2019 08: 10
          Specific question.
          What specifically lies in the 1,2,4 Myths.

          Myth1. IRAs can quietly reach the line of launching missiles on an aircraft carrier. The answer is no, the aircraft carrier is attacking the coast from the far sea zone and continuously maneuvering. IRAs will not hijack him, and he will not be able to use a weapon at a great roll. A carrier - can.

          - You, as an active officer of the Navy, should be well aware that an aircraft carrier itself never acts, but only as a member of a group. Which is primarily intended for his defense.
          Forward the ships of escort move forward, which monitor both air, and surface and underwater space. Yes, there are all sorts of planes such as Hokai.

          Myth 2. IRAs can reach a surface target from thousands of kilometers. The answer is no, a rocket intended for strikes against ground targets is flying at several thousand kilometers; anti-ship missiles do not fly at such a distance. This is due to the need to have a heavy homing vessel on board the rocket, and, as a result, the lack of space for fuel. Approximately 380 kilometers distance from the "anti-ship" "Caliber", no more.

          - The answer is correct. We do not have such anti-ship missiles. The maximum range of 350 - 400 km and then in question. And according to the intelligence and targeting.

          Myth 3 is not considered. You yourself agreed with him.

          Myth 4. MRK project 21361 can launch missiles at ships and "keeps the US Navy at bay." The answer is only with an external control center, by itself it cannot launch missiles at surface ships. Sad, isn't it?
          .- I do not understand why they carried it out once again in the myth of 2, everyone wrote.
          -------------
          So what do you disagree with?
          1. +7
            24 June 2019 10: 00
            All wrong.
            Myth1:
            - no aircraft carrier does not attack from the far sea zone. In order to attack our objects, it needs to go about 600-700 km. This is the so-called near sea zone (for us)
            - in order for an aircraft carrier to use its armament (and these are airplanes) you need to have a number of favorable weather conditions, and at sea FOUR BALL airplanes will not fly - you can still take off, you can not get back!
            - which means the aircraft carrier is constantly maneuvering - all ships are maneuvering, so what. Both ours and not ours anti-ship missiles are "sharpened" for "maneuvering" ships - not actually standing still. (This is the same as saying that you cannot eat soup, it’s liquid, you need to drink it).
            - which means the MRK will not hijack, the IRK has a higher speed than the aircraft carrier, and when it is used, aviation operates in the region.
            - Of course, the IRC against AUG alone will not go, the author himself invented a theory of the use of these ships, and then he himself denied it. A whole complex of our forces will act, in which a number of small rocket ships will be operating, solving the tasks assigned to them. (For example: the destruction of the ships of the so-called security)
            Moreover, these ships can form both of the same type of CUG and enter the CUG with ships of other projects. SHIPS ONE ALONE DO NOT FIGHT.
            IRA. plus aviation support and at the same time both submarines and airplanes also solve their tasks of destroying the enemy. Or do you think they sent one IRA, and all the others are sitting on the beach and are looking to cope or not cope; can not cope - the second will send.
            - Hockey planes are not at all about doing business here - their main purpose is aerial reconnaissance. Many people mistakenly assume that if an AEW aircraft is about sea and land targets. Here he should detect our missiles. But this does not mean that he will find them all, plus there will be other air targets and ours and enemy ones and he should follow all.

            And most of all it touches me when all the lies are covered with the phrase: "Well, you are an active officer of the Navy, you should know! .."


            Well, now you need to do other things. I'll come back razvinchuyu other myths.
            1. +2
              24 June 2019 10: 41
              It feels like you did not understand the article you are commenting on.
            2. The comment was deleted.
            3. +6
              24 June 2019 11: 40
              Sorry, but your reasoning makes you doubt that you are a current fleet officer.
              About the aircraft AWACS E-2C "Hawkeye". It can detect and track up to 540 air and surface (ground) targets at a distance of 800 km. Aim up to 40 aircraft or groups of aircraft at them. In addition to this aircraft, there is a RS-135
              The conduct of hostilities will begin with a natural intelligence, the destruction of all that can resist or have such an opportunity. For this will be used as aircraft and ships AUG.
              According to the experience of WWII. Why Japanese aircraft did not act too effectively. Amerikosy put forward on 150 - 300 miles in the direction of the enemy destroyers with radar, detecting Japanese aircraft and ships for a long time before they reach the American ship group. By the time of approaching the ships, all calculations were in place and ready to repel the raid. Now the radar stations have advanced very far. And on the possible routes of the enemy ships can be delivered sonar buoys.
              Over the past years, 50 in the world a lot of wars occurred, in which aircraft carriers were directly involved, and no one was attacked with missile boats. Just do not talk about stupid Arabs and no less stupid amerikosy. Pros here and there are not very bad.
              The last attack on an aircraft carrier took place during the amusing war in 1982. It got to many, but not aircraft carriers.
              The boats naturally have a chance to hit the aircraft carrier, but it is too elusive.
              But with what I agree so with
              Quote: Valery Valery
              SHIPS ONE ALONE DO NOT FIGHT.
              1. +10
                24 June 2019 14: 10
                Don't read Soviet newspapers! - As one professor from Bulgakov said. And I would recommend you to filter information from the Internet that they write about enemy airplanes. (I will not be offended by your doubts about whether I am an officer or not, all here are "Internet daredevils")
                I explain (I hope not for nothing): the radar for Hokay works in the 420-490 MHz band - THIS IS LONG-WAVE 70, see !!!!! She observes air targets due to the Doppler effect, and he may not see non-speed targets like MRCs at all !!
                As for the RC - 135 aircraft, it is a peacetime aircraft and is sharpened for an early opening of the coastal air defense system and this is not an ARLO aircraft. The only problem for us in this regard is the aircraft of the AWACS E4A, C, D system. In the event of a war in our North, he will hang over Varanger and will warn in advance about the surface and air situation, to destroy it practically in this case will not be possible due to the powerful cover, but it can be dealt with by means of EW. The radar of this aircraft works on 10, see - there are means of suppression.
                1. 0
                  25 June 2019 03: 41
                  What is the SCD you know?
                  But talk about something else. In the comments that you deleted. What are all the myths that are given in the article nonsense and falsehood.
            4. -2
              24 June 2019 23: 14
              It used to be, the far zone 600-700 km, now even more, for example, the deck multipurpose fighter F / A-18E / F has a combat radius to 1850 km, and taking into account the latest AGM-158A / B missiles and AGM-158C LRASM more bolshe.A about the deck battle drones, I modestly keep silent.
              American nuclear aircraft carriers such as C.W.Niemitz and its more advanced version Gerald Ford guarantee deck-based aircraft combat use up to 7 (seven) points of sea or ocean excitement, proven by practice, there are rollers in Yutube, plus airplanes are equipped with an automatic landing system that already It has been tested and used.
              The aircraft carrier’s main task is air defense / missile defense warrants, the remaining tasks are secondary or complementary to the forces of the first strike.
              1. +3
                25 June 2019 00: 11
                I explain why all the same 600 km and not 1850. (Not everything is true in drawn TTH).
                Fertilizer range F / A - 18 ---- 3200-3500 km without weapons, with hanging tanks. The real combat radius is slightly more than 700 km. And this is with UABs. If the AGM-158 radius is reduced to it by another 50-80 km, if AGM -84 is the same as 700, and you also need to lay the range for possible fuel consumption while overcoming the fighter diving.
                About the landing of the aircraft in 7 points, I do not know what is there in YouTube and how it is commented by the author of the video. But this is impossible, and there are no heroes among Americans (even pilots).
                As for the purpose of the aircraft carrier - air defense / missile defense - there are no objections, along the coast deck aircraft will fly when Tamogavkami air defense system is destroyed. But as the SAR has shown - we can fight with Tamogavkami
                1. -1
                  25 June 2019 09: 11
                  You are definitely not a naval officer. In all your comments a bunch of factual errors, slogans and obvious misinformation, characteristic of trolls.
                  1. -1
                    26 June 2019 15: 40
                    And a bunch of spelling ones to boot. "Tamoghawk."
                2. +2
                  25 June 2019 20: 16
                  Quote: Valery Valery
                  I explain why all the same 600 km and not 1850. (Not everything is true in drawn TTH).

                  Hmm ... one of the typical tasks of the AUG during the Cold War is to strike at the KUG of a potential enemy at a distance of 600 miles. In the well-known ZVO a force squad was even painted on such a blow.
                  1. +1
                    26 June 2019 18: 14
                    Then the other planes were sensitive.

                    Now, formally, they can strike far, but it seems to be miles in 400-500 documents. This is if the ships.

                    It is simpler along the coast, we hang a pair of JASSM-ER and PTB, and that's your 1000-1100 km range. And no danger, unlike the attack of the KUG.
        2. +3
          24 June 2019 10: 48
          Quote: Valery Valery
          Over-the-horizon radars are not designed for DD.
          Etc. Here you need to refute the entire article.
          I am a current naval officer.

          I was always interested in the question of whether SU-24MR planes are capable of providing operational target designation for missile boats. In the article, this is somehow not affected.
          1. +4
            24 June 2019 10: 55
            Any aircraft can give tsu, the main thing is that the time parameter does not exceed the threshold, the so-called data obsolescence.
            1. +3
              24 June 2019 11: 14
              Quote: Valery Valery
              Any aircraft can give tsu

              It depends on the quality of encrypted channels - Link16 analogs.
              The Su-24MR is quite old, and the architecture of the new ships is adjusted to the standards with the open architecture Link1, Link11, Link16, LInk22
              The question arises about the possible compatibility of the equipment of the new ISCs and this aircraft on the speed of data exchange.
              1. +2
                24 June 2019 14: 16
                Not everything as you think. Well, it is not possible to tell everything on this resource from the point of view, state secrets, well, I don’t know, check the word or something, Commander can transfer both the plane and the satellite, and the satellite, and in some cases the trawler.
                1. +1
                  25 June 2019 21: 51
                  Quote: Valery Valery
                  Not everything as you think. Well, it is not possible to tell everything on this resource from the point of view, state secrets, well, I don’t know, check the word or something, Commander can transfer both the plane and the satellite, and the satellite, and in some cases the trawler.

                  In 1982, Argentine attack aircraft received command control from both anti-submarine aircraft and transport, from everything that was at hand. By the way, the Sheffield anti-submarine missile was drowned, or rather burned.
          2. +4
            24 June 2019 15: 15
            Quote: goose
            I was always interested in the question whether operational targeting for SU-24MR aircraft is capable of providing operational targeting

            Most likely it cannot. There was such a reconnaissance and control system - "Success", united by a network of automatic transmission of target data. For this, the target designator (for example, the Tu-95RTs) had a data transmission equipment with a narrowly directional antenna, which at the time of the control center was oriented strictly towards the recipient, which accordingly had an antenna for receiving data. Any unauthorized subscriber who did not have the "Success" equipment could not connect to this network. "Success" has long been removed from service, but I strongly doubt that the Su-24MR has automated equipment for interfacing directly with ships, bypassing some command post on the shore. So, of course, the pilot can broadcast the coordinates of the targets, the bearing to the target, the distance, etc. But how is this used for rocket fire?
            1. +1
              24 June 2019 19: 58
              Quote: Alex_59
              Success "has long been removed from service, but I strongly doubt that the Su-24MR has automated equipment for interfacing directly with ships, bypassing any command post on the shore.

              For this (communication channel), the plane of the repeater was usually hung up, but through it at least to the ground control, at least to the ship. And now for this and satellites are available.
            2. +1
              25 June 2019 10: 48
              Quote: Alex_59
              But how to use it for rocket firing?

              It’s a pity that Tu-95РЦ or various incarnations of IL-38, IL-20 are not always at hand, while Su-24МР is a standard operational fleet reconnaissance aircraft. He, in theory, and need to maintain the mosquito forces of the fleet.
              1. +2
                27 June 2019 11: 17
                Quote: goose
                It’s a pity that Tu-95РЦ or various incarnations of IL-38, IL-20 are not always at hand, while Su-24МР is a standard operational fleet reconnaissance aircraft. He, in theory, and need to maintain the mosquito forces of the fleet.

                Not certainly in that way. The IL-20 has a dead locator. We often "took" him to the same "Tim Spirit". Il-38 leading, Il-20 slave. You can read it here.
                http://samlib.ru/s/semenow_aleksandr_sergeewich333/teamspirit.shtml ("Любопытство и ничего больше")
                Su-24 MP, likewise. They walked in a pair of Su-24 M and MP. Called -RUG.Razv shock group. For the same reason, the MP has a deadly navigation.
        3. +1
          25 June 2019 22: 17
          Quote: Valery Valery
          I am a current naval officer. If you have specific questions, please reply as possible.

          Specific question. At which theater and under what scenario is it possible to successfully apply our (hypothetical) destroyers and cruisers?
          Those. where and against whom?
          If against NATO, the Baltic Sea disappears?
          Black too?
          Will someone allow our Northern Fleet to go to the Atlantic?
          In the Pacific past Japan, we will flash? And where, if we go through?
          1. +2
            26 June 2019 00: 20
            Our ships without problems perform BS tasks in all waters of the world ocean.
            But I understand that your question, Captain Pushkin, is connected with the option - what if the war with the USA.
            Below I will outline one of the options for the actions of the forces of the fleet. In fact, everything is much, much more complicated, and along with these actions, others will also be performed. If you describe everything - Tolstoy with his four volumes "War and Peace" will sit quietly on the sidelines.
            And so:
            The situation is as follows (in a nutshell you will not explain, but I will try):
            There are such PLs - SSBNs - this is part of our nuclear triad, and its main task is to cause unacceptable damage or destroy the economic and military potential of the aggressor country. In my opinion they would be more. But even now there are so many that the British Isles, in the event of war, simply do not exist, and the United States, simultaneously, will lose the most economically developed states to 8-10.
            And this is the main threat for our "friends" and "partners" - because it is very difficult to detect the missiles - the missile range is such that SSBNs, for example, the Northern Fleet, can deploy in the eastern part of the Barents Sea, in the Kara Sea or in the Arctic (occupy their ZRBD)
            ZRBD-protected areas of hostilities.
            And while the SSBN in these areas, you can sleep peacefully. They unfold and act covertly, they can only be detected at short ranges.
            And the task of a sufficiently large outfit of the fleet forces is to prevent the enemy from detecting areas of these squares. For this purpose, the missions are carried out by KUGs, KPUGs, AMG, multipurpose PL, various aircraft, etc. And we have enough strength for that. In this case, the forces of the fleet in the far sea zone do not go.

            Once again - of course, everything is much more complicated, and at the same time other tasks are solved. But I gave you one as an example.
            1. -2
              26 June 2019 18: 17
              And while the SSBN in these areas, you can sleep peacefully. They unfold and act covertly, they can only be detected at short ranges.


              Some kind of mantra from the beginning of 80's.

              Why then, in about 80% of cases, when the RSLG interceptor barrier was set up for control purposes from PLO planes, the US NPS soon passed through this barrier?

              How so?

              ZRBD - nothing more than traps for SSBNs, in which the enemy knows all the hydrology "from and to" and has long felt at home and does what he wants.
              1. 0
                26 June 2019 18: 36
                With all due respect, but it seems to me that you do not quite understand what you are writing about!
                RGAB - this is not a mine, it is a radio hydro-acoustic buoy designed to detect pl. Boats pass through it and we find them, we will destroy the war.
                His (barrier) expose just where the expected passage of foreign square. Therefore, the 80% you specified is high efficiency, our Tu142 and IL-38 respect and respect for this.

                Your last passage about "hydrology" was simply killed. You open an encyclopedia, read what "Hydrology" is (the science that studies natural waters, their interaction with the atmosphere and lithosphere, as well as phenomena and processes occurring in waters (evaporation, freezing, etc.).
                Instead of hydrology, you can insert "mathematics" into your phrase and the meaning will not change. They know hydrology and we know hydrology and we set up our detection equipment in accordance with the layers of the jump and occupy the depths of pl.
                1. -2
                  27 June 2019 11: 48
                  Scroll to the end of the list of comments, there the participant of the mentioned sorties was noted.
            2. +1
              26 June 2019 19: 53
              Quote: Valery Valery
              ZRBD-protected areas of hostilities.
              And while the SSBN in these areas, you can sleep peacefully. They unfold and act covertly, they can only be detected at short ranges.
              And the task of a sufficiently large outfit of the fleet forces is to prevent the enemy from detecting areas of these squares. For this purpose, the missions are carried out by KUGs, KPUGs, AMG, multipurpose PL, various aircraft, etc. And we have enough strength for that. In this case, the forces of the fleet in the far sea zone do not go.

              As required to prove - in our current economy, all these aircraft carriers, cruisers and destroyers, this is not for us. In peacetime, the flag demonstrator and the world's best money eater; in the wartime, pink elephants, they themselves will need to be somehow hidden, covered and defended, because they will be targets more vulnerable than submarines. Not a single modern ship at the moment is able to protect itself from a massive air strike, not that anyone else. Alas.
              Before the Second World War in the USSR, up to 40% of the defense budget went to the fleet. They built cruisers, battleships ... Did they navigate a lot? If this money were spent wisely (oil refineries, aluminum production, production of gunpowder and explosives, automobile production, the purchase of artillery and ammunition machines), this alone would have won the war much earlier and with significantly smaller losses.
              1. -1
                26 June 2019 20: 03
                Sorry for the time spent! He tried to explain as thoroughly as possible, the person who thought seemed to be interested in interest. But no, I was wrong. You just need to say something bad about the country.
                1. -1
                  27 June 2019 12: 23
                  Quote: Valery Valery
                  Sorry for the time spent! He tried to explain as thoroughly as possible, the person who thought seemed to be interested in interest. But no, I was wrong. You just need to say something bad about the country.

                  And where am I and what "muck about the country" said? Is that opinion different from yours?
                  Similarly, in the event of a global conflict, you do not see any prospects for our surface ships to go out to the ocean. Then you need to invest in what exactly will be necessary in the event of a big war.
                  The fact that very limited resources were not always rationally spent before the war was so obvious. Just those mistakes need to be considered today. But if we were then put to the helm with us (or today), then with all our genius with you, surely we would have missed a lot too.
                  It hurts you, as a service man, who gave his life to the fleet, that some civilian nullifies the prospects of the Russian ocean fleet? So it's not me, these are the guys who rule the economy (hand stretches to write the country, but I will refrain, there must be at least some small hope for the best), with them money for the Russian ocean fleet (and a lot more for that) just will not.
                  So do not be offended.
                  1. -1
                    27 June 2019 13: 13
                    I described to you just one situation. And yes, in the event of a global conflict, our fleet decides defensive functions. (With the exception of the NSNF). And so it was always with us !! And as well as the USSR! In order to have a fleet like the United States, it was necessary (like them) not to fight a foreign enemy with 1812 on its territory. Alas, the geography is not the same. And then, without fear of God, set the countries of Europe among themselves in two world wars. And at the same time, we had to avoid all these wars, and to prevent the disastrous nineties.
                    Now we have taken a good start in the development of the fleet, already now we have forces that will not lose in the event of a war at sea and will inflict such damage on the enemy that it will look out from behind for a long time. And on this basis, the military budget is drawn up. OUR MILITARY DOCTRINE DOES NOT PROVIDE OTHER STATE INVOLVEMENT. And the fleet is "sharpened" for certain tasks. Of course, I want better and more. And I think for the Northern Fleet and the Pacific Fleet you need at least two full-fledged AMGs, not to mention ship groupings of less class. But not all at once. The fleet is needed - but it is an expensive pleasure and here you have to act out of reasonable necessity.
                    PS I "did not serve", I serve in the Federation Council.
                    1. -2
                      27 June 2019 13: 32
                      Now a good start has been taken in the development of the fleet, now we have forces that will not lose in case of war at sea and will cause such damage to the enemy that he will still look out for a long time.


                      Are you not from the office of Colonel General Kartapolov case? What damage do you do? SLBM? So it is necessary to live to start again, having on the tail of Virginia, Astyuta and Losa almost all the time (tell tales about ZRBD in a detsky garden, but not here).
                      1. -1
                        27 June 2019 13: 53
                        No one will miss the Virginia. If you are for the Russian Federation then do not worry! If you are for our enemies - well, don't be happy.
                        If everything was as you think our "partners" would have already demolished us.
                        I will not even comment on the rest, there are a lot of Internet analysts here.
                      2. -2
                        27 June 2019 14: 00
                        Yes, you are a storyteller, a storyteller. Officer "by the grace of the monetary sheet" apparently, at the best with it.
    6. +6
      24 June 2019 07: 23
      Quote: Valery Valery
      Lord! How unprofessional are all the statements in this article! A set of terms and wrong statements! Does the author have anything to do with the Navy? Or is it just another "Internet" expert?
      Imagine having the same ... Taki oh ...

      But I agree with your assessment. Especially deliver some of the strange statements of the Author. For example:
      active interference put the effectiveness of the missiles "into question" already in 1973, during the sea battles of the next Arab-Israeli war, when not a single Arab missile hit the target - the Israeli boats took all of them into interference. Since 1973, no anti-ship missiles hit the ship covered with interference.

      Probably, dear author does not know that since 1973, many new things have appeared in the methods of guiding RCC and materiel. GOS can work in a difficult jamming environment, can be induced on the source of interference, can work as a group, including with the distribution of targets between the missiles of the attacking group ...
      It does not matter if these anti-ship missiles were released from an airplane, helicopter, cruiser or RTC.
      1. +6
        24 June 2019 07: 57
        the fleet must be balanced, that's all. ISCs, iMCP, destroyers and cruisers, and aircraft carriers are also needed, the question is precisely in the right balance.
        1. +5
          24 June 2019 08: 59
          Still there would be enough money and people to have both IRAs and aircraft carriers.
        2. +8
          24 June 2019 10: 52
          Quote: Aerodrome
          the fleet must be balanced, that's all.

          An article about the tendency of balance change towards a decrease in the share of ships with small tonnage.
          True, the article does not take into account new trends in the minimization of equipment and the full automation of ships. Now it is actually possible to get a modest-sized drone, which by combat qualities will be like the 1135 project. And it will be a ship at least 2 times smaller (though not the fact that it is cheaper).
          1. +1
            24 June 2019 11: 03
            Now it is actually possible to get a modest-sized drone, which by combat qualities will be like the 1135 project.


            Unreal.
      2. +7
        24 June 2019 08: 58
        Probably, dear author does not know that since 1973, many new things have appeared in the methods of guiding RCC and materiel. GOS can work in a difficult jamming environment, can be induced on the source of interference, can work as a group, including with the distribution of targets between the missiles of the attacking group ...


        Well, and the interference complexes have changed, the same NULKA flies next to the ship, just in case of pointing at the source of interference. Multispectral interference is not new.
        1. 0
          25 June 2019 00: 46
          Moreover, Nulka and others like her create false goals.
      3. +2
        25 June 2019 21: 58
        Quote: Mik13
        Probably, dear author does not know that since 1973, many new things have appeared in the methods of guiding RCC and materiel. GOS can work in a difficult jamming environment, can be induced on the source of interference, can work as a group, including with the distribution of targets between the missiles of the attacking group ...
        It does not matter if these anti-ship missiles were released from an airplane, helicopter, cruiser or RTC.

        And the author apparently does not know that the 1977 atomic missile cruiser CGN-25 "Bainbridge" was accidentally hit by the anti-ship missile X-12, released by the Tu-16 (the cruiser entered the area of ​​the PF exercises with live firing).
        Bainbridge applied interference, but it did not save him from hitting the rocket.
    7. +1
      24 June 2019 08: 10
      Yeah, at least some ...
    8. +3
      24 June 2019 14: 29
      Quote: Valery Valery
      How unprofessional are all the statements in this article!

      smile It happens!
      Quote: Valery Valery
      Does the author have anything to do with the fleet?

      Mediocre!
      Quote: Valery Valery
      Or is it just another "Internet" expert?

      People's Journalist!
      The whole trouble of Alexander Timokhin is that he got in touch with the Romanians, and the Romanians have not brought anyone to good laughing
  3. +4
    24 June 2019 06: 17
    Fleet only then FLEET ... when he is an ocean ... the rest is really MYTHS ..
    1. +4
      24 June 2019 06: 34
      Having failed to achieve the desired in the construction of the fleet, the leadership of Russia decided to declare what was achieved, the desired ....
      1. 0
        24 June 2019 07: 06
        It always does that. sad
      2. 0
        24 June 2019 08: 03
        Quote: Greg Miller
        Having failed to achieve the desired in the construction of the fleet, the leadership of Russia decided to declare what was achieved, the desired ....

        quite a reasonable explanation hi no elaborated concept and underfunding after = result ...
      3. +5
        24 June 2019 08: 59
        It is not even a guide. Below the rank, people give out the need for virtue.
    2. +2
      25 June 2019 22: 03
      Quote: plotnikov561956
      Fleet only then FLEET ... when he is an ocean ... the rest is really MYTHS ..

      The fleet is only oceanic when it has money.
      In order for the fleet of the Russian Federation to become oceanic, the military budget of the Russian Federation must be higher than this two or three times in the course of the 15-20 years.
  4. +1
    24 June 2019 06: 32
    I think for a while, after the article, I digested so to speak. I ask myself the question, why do we need a large-tonnage (I generalize the types of ships), surface military fleet, what is its purpose? With the current technology of progress, having weighed the pros and cons, the desire to build it melts before our eyes. Yes, even if the plans were to send a caravan to the N-th point, for some kind of action, it looks ridiculous - there is a one-way road (again, not those times). Yes, primitively, the detonation of one nuclear weapon, it does not matter under or above water, at a relatively distant distance - will order the squadron to "live long". Naturally, we cannot do without middle-class ships - destroyers, frigates, etc.
    1. 0
      24 June 2019 06: 54
      Hi Vladimir soldier
      Climbing into the disassembly, called "I'm smart, you d-d-not very fast," is a dubious pleasure.
      All the same, everyone is wrong, but the one who is the WINNER is right!
      Now one concept rules, then another one will "play" ..... and strategists in uniform, "play" always and in different ways. By the way, the sofa "Napoleons" are to the right of all and always!
      1. 0
        24 June 2019 09: 36
        Hello Victor ! This is what life-giving analytics do, yet such a topic and how many people - so many opinions - this is normal. And at the expense of the sofa, taking into account those not interested in finances and the shortcomings of the full picture of what is happening in the General Staff, I think in part you are right.
        1. 0
          24 June 2019 09: 50
          Quote: bald
          you are partly right.

          If a person makes conclusions based on INFORMATION (find, study, compare, it is LABOR), at least from the offices / departments, even from the sofas !!! It can be seen, anyone who is in the subject .... if a person does not write what utter or utter one.
          Does he "learn" from shooters and other "left" sources? the "analysis" will be appropriate!
          I saw how in a shooting game, "Bradley" knocked out a tank from its little puppy, firing three times and not at the goose, but in the forehead! Isn't it funny .... although, maybe we have outgrown and there is not enough fantasy for such "miracles"?
    2. +7
      24 June 2019 06: 56
      Quote: bald
      what is needed large-tonnage (generalize the types of ships), surface navy,

      A powerful radar with an airborne target detection range of at least 400km, several SAM systems (C-400 or 500, Armor), a missile strike complex, a power station of at least 1.5 MW for all this iron - they weigh heavily. And if it is necessary to move it at a speed of at least 50km / h, the power plant must be solid. Here you and sizes.
      And yes, the squadron system is designed for the fact that you will not destroy more than one pennant with a single nuclear weapon charge.
      1. +4
        24 June 2019 08: 47
        The armored "monsters" of a bygone era were staunch "iron soldiers". With modern, everything is somewhat different, the concepts are different. Now they want to prevent ammunition from being hit, hide, shoot down, and so on. So far, no one has really checked who is right or wrong.
        Quote: Galleon
        And yes, the squadron system is designed for the fact that you will not destroy more than one pennant with a single nuclear weapon charge.

        Seriously? Is a peaked amber-sized ammunition?
        The tests were long, with the technique of the previous generation, which was much more resistant to mechanical stress, and other damaging factors of nuclear.
        So guessing how it can be now can be very conditional! All these computer models do not reflect everything at once.
        However, it is better to let it be, just do not need to feed illusions.
        1. +3
          24 June 2019 10: 00
          He seriously, they do not float in a crowd, they are dispersed, so they will sink alone. And not the whole squadron.
      2. +2
        24 June 2019 09: 17
        Do not forget that the maneuver between theaters, we can only carry out through the oceans. And then the storm and pitching, and far away. This also requires the size of the ship.
        1. +1
          24 June 2019 09: 44
          And why do we, the surface fleet overseas - for this nuclear submarine, they need to be increased.
          1. +7
            24 June 2019 10: 02
            How to ensure the air defense of a convoy to Syria or Venezuela using nuclear submarines? There are no one-armed legless boxers.
            1. 0
              25 June 2019 01: 00
              I am for the average tonnage (corvettes, frigates, etc.), see above - or are you going to accompany the convoy with an aircraft carrier or a cruiser? Be careful if you are discussing.
              1. -1
                26 June 2019 18: 19
                Your quote:

                And why do we, the surface fleet overseas - for this nuclear submarine, they need to be increased.


                Where is about corvettes?
                1. 0
                  26 June 2019 20: 08
                  Average tonnage includes - do not carp. the main thing together we worry about our fleet and we wish the best to it.
                2. 0
                  26 June 2019 20: 16
                  Of course, there is no sharp edge of displacement.
          2. +1
            24 June 2019 10: 16
            Quote: bald
            And why do we, the surface fleet overseas - for this nuclear submarine, they need to be increased.

            Underwater "platforms" must be guarded! There is no way to argue with this, because the enemy has a LOT of anti-submarine weapons. To extinguish the boat, a large ship is not needed, it is vulnerable, and since they operate in the vast, in the distance, then the guards must be of the ocean class.
      3. -4
        24 June 2019 09: 40
        Hi Andrew I did not mean a direct hit of nuclear weapons - I am talking about a tsunami caused by it.
        1. +1
          24 June 2019 09: 56
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          And then the storm and pitching, and far away. This also requires the size of the ship.

          In general, small ships are not positioned as a serious strike force, a reserve that can be effectively hidden, and not put up as targets!
          Of course, seaworthiness is a LIMIT on the use of ships .... for skerries or ocean, a big difference.
        2. +3
          24 June 2019 10: 14
          Quote: bald
          Hi Andrew I did not mean a direct hit of nuclear weapons - I am talking about a tsunami caused by it.

          tsunami in the ocean will not feel.
        3. +4
          24 June 2019 12: 22
          Hello Vladimir! Well, the so-called. tsunami, or the baseline and gravitational wave, works during an underwater explosion, where its power is great, but we must still consider an above-water explosion - we assume that a missile strike, not a torpedo. An air shock wave can break antennas within a radius of 3-5 km. This factor is taken into account in the west: some of the antennas are retractable, the AFAR "pancakes" are attached to the body. The close escort of the aircraft carrier walks, it would be fair to say, 10-30 km from it, the distant - 80-120 km. In general, you need to prepare for the worst, hope for the best))
  5. -20
    24 June 2019 06: 40
    Or an alternative example. Russia is planning a pre-emptive nuclear strike on the United States. What do we need in this case?

    My previous comment to this phrase was deleted as an insult to the author of the article.
    I propose to ban both the article and the author, as inciting interethnic enmity and insulting the participants of HE
    1. +7
      24 June 2019 09: 15
      What is the love for America bombed? Nothing, be patient. bully
    2. +2
      24 June 2019 14: 17
      I am an article and the author is not offended. Interethnic enmity is incited by the nationalities themselves; there is no need to frighten the criminal from the sofa. Use your own strength, preferably the mind.
  6. +5
    24 June 2019 06: 44
    The actions of Georgian boats in 2008 can also be attributed to the "victories" of the mosquito fleet.
  7. The comment was deleted.
    1. +7
      24 June 2019 07: 05
      Tezka, you yourself do not own the subject of reasoning, but why do you think that the author of the article does not own it? As one of the aircraft carriers is stuck out at Yokosuka, the other is on duty in Trondheim or Narvik - and this is the last 60 years. Did not know?
      1. -3
        24 June 2019 07: 37
        Tezka, you yourself do not own the subject of reasoning, but why do you think that the author of the article does not own it? As one of the aircraft carriers is stuck out at Yokosuka, the other is on duty in Trondheim or Narvik - and this is the last 60 years. Did not know?

        Well, I feel closer to the air than the water surface. But it seems that for such a large-tonnage vessel as an aircraft carrier, and even with a warrant assigned to it, operational space is needed. This is the first thing. And secondly: Trondheim is the emnip Norway, so there is a fairly large expanse of the Norwegian Sea up to the shores of Iceland, Greenland and Svalbard. Well, third, "sticking around" at the wall is one thing, but being in a state of combat deployment, IMHO, is another. And fourth, as I understand it, the same Project 21631 is more of a platform for calibers than a force capable of attacking an aircraft carrier.
        1. +1
          24 June 2019 07: 42
          Quote: Ka-52
          for such a large-tonnage vessel as an aircraft carrier, and with a warrant attached to it, we need operational space

          Truly reasoning. Its operational space there is the North Theater with the bases of our SSBN + our surface fleet in Severomorsk. In the fjords protects its coastal defense. It will take several hours to strike - to go out to sea and gain maximum speed against the wind (to create aviation lift). Ocean boundless is not required.
        2. +2
          24 June 2019 09: 02
          But it seems that for such a large-capacity vessel as an aircraft carrier, and with a warrant attached to it, we need operational space.


          Well, you ask how the Americans in the Westfjord hid aircraft carriers all 80-e, it will be interesting.
          1. -2
            24 June 2019 09: 22
            timokhin-aa (Alexander Timokhin) Today, 09: 02
            But it seems that for such a large-capacity vessel as an aircraft carrier, and with a warrant attached to it, we need operational space.

            Well, you ask how the Americans in the Westfjord hid aircraft carriers all 80-e, it will be interesting.

            Alexander, with the word "raving", maybe I got excited, but you must understand that given the AUG coverage area, an aircraft carrier does not need to crawl into either the Baltic or the Barents Sea! If from the Norwegian Sea the Americans can strike from the coast of the Gulf of Finland to the North Island. How can our RTOs face them there, even hypothetically?
            1. +8
              24 June 2019 09: 26
              I understand this, our turbopriotids to whom the article is addressed do not understand. And the criticism of their views, quite malicious, was understood by you as my beliefs. But you were mistaken, I do not think that the IRAs can chase an aircraft carrier, I criticize this nonsense, which has already become the mainstream in the public consciousness.
              1. -1
                24 June 2019 13: 08
                I understand this, our turbopriotids to whom the article is addressed do not understand.

                Turbo patriots like to give me cons. This is despite the fact that the only reason that encourages them, I can only name their self-satisfaction of tactile finger itch laughing
    2. +6
      24 June 2019 09: 01
      The author does not rave, the super-duper IRAs, who with their rockets will melt from under the rail, all aircraft carriers in our country have already become a religion of some irresponsible citizens.
      The author fights against this mythology as much as he can.
      You try to delve into the read.
  8. +8
    24 June 2019 07: 14
    Mosquito fleet should not be in place of a large fleet, but in addition to it.
    1. +3
      24 June 2019 09: 14
      If you have enough money for everything.
      1. +2
        24 June 2019 09: 37
        Nuuu a couple of top three Arashukovyh, Zakharchenko, Cherkalin and a couple of aircraft carriers enough.
        Only the fact that these three have found exceeds the cost of all the programs of the Su-57.
        1. +1
          24 June 2019 14: 30
          To Yandex's question "how much money was found at Zakharchenko's", he answered in a separate box, did not even give out a list of sites: 8,5 billion rubles. They write about Arashukov: 30 billion. Cherkalin has 12. Total: 50.5 billion. This, at the rate of 63 r per dollar, is 801.6 million dollars. The aircraft carrier Gerald Ford cost 13 billion, i.e. 16.2 times more expensive. If our aircraft carrier is three times cheaper (offhand compared to the prices of combat aircraft), we still need 5.4 times more money. This is only an aircraft carrier. One. This means that you need to find and neutralize another 3 * 5.4 = 16.2 embezzlers of the corresponding caliber. But there is another problem - we need to build shipyards or greatly modernize. But I would be with you - there would be a desire.
          1. +1
            24 June 2019 16: 01
            Quote: Anton
            $801.6 million

            With this money you can buy X-NUMX squadron Su-1,5. In our sad reality, this would also be great.
          2. -1
            25 June 2019 03: 43
            The cost of the program Su-57 - 60 billion rubles.
  9. +11
    24 June 2019 07: 48
    In general, I agree.
    But the example with the Libyans is somewhat far-fetched. The Libyans were not going to start a quick victorious war with the 6th Fleet, their task was secret patrols. And according to some reports, they successfully carried out it in radio silence and at low speed - disguised as a "fisherman". Reconnaissance in passive mode was not carried out, because their version of the MRK 1234E is not equipped with electronic warfare equipment, similar to the Soviet 1234. When they briefly turned on the radar, they were immediately classified and attacked. The situation could have developed differently if the Libyans were not on the "E" version of the MRK, but on a full-fledged Soviet one, and if they were fully ready for battle - to shoot and drown, and not to conduct an amorphous "patrol". Soviet RTOs were part of a large fleet, that's right. But unlike the Libyans, Soviet MRKs were also part of the reconnaissance and target designation system, they could receive an external control center, conduct reconnaissance in a passive mode, etc. That is, in theory, disguising itself with some Baltic islands or Norwegian fjords could set the heat.
    And about the RTOs of Project 21361 - consider these ships as a river launcher for the INF and nothing more. These ships are a beautiful trick with the ears to circumvent the INF Treaty (now not relevant). It is no coincidence that they were originally of the "river-sea" class and were planned for the Caspian Sea. It is easy for such a ship to get lost in the Volga delta near Astrakhan, which does not freeze all year round. And you can zhahnut - to Berlin.
    1. -6
      24 June 2019 08: 38
      It is no coincidence that they were originally of the "river-sea" class and were planned for the Caspian Sea. It is easy for such a ship to get lost in the Volga delta near Astrakhan, which does not freeze all year round. And you can zhahnut - to Berlin.


      Americans will track down the bridges. Well, or it will be a failed ship. Or will be locked between bridges.



      And here, for example, Sviyazhsk had to run a short distance on his own business. I had to unscrew the mast and radar. For not under the bridge climbed. But without tugs, he himself ran.

      1. +10
        24 June 2019 09: 29
        Quote: donavi49
        Americans will track down the bridges.

        Turn on your fantasy. Can you imagine a situation when the Americans blew up not only all the bridges on the Volga, but also blew up all the spans of each bridge? But even if this happens - between Astrakhan and Volgograd (the nearest bridge crossings) 420 kilometers of the river. Who will enable the American aviation (and only aviation can sink a mobile MRK) to find out where our ships are camouflaged on these 400 kilometers? I think that the United States itself does not even think about such a possibility in theory. Finally, from Astrakhan we still have the Volga delta and the Caspian Sea where there are no bridges at all, and the area of ​​the search area is 150x150 km. I hope you understand that it is extremely difficult to detect an MRK standing on the river under the bank with proper camouflage - it will not represent a radio-contrast figure, and when searching for "heat" there you need to melt all the fishing scows.
        1. -1
          24 June 2019 20: 38
          Spit three times. In case of a serious mess, they will not cut false pipe with masts. After all, they also need to be drilled then. And the transition Rostov Astrakhan week. Well, this is if Volgodonsk oh channel is not destroyed. In general, too many variables
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. +2
      24 June 2019 09: 13
      The situation could have developed differently if the Libyans were not on the "E" version of the RTO, but on a full-fledged Soviet one, and if they were fully ready for battle - to shoot and drown, and not to conduct an amorphous "patrol".


      So their planes drowned, with whom would they fight something?

      And about the ISCs of the 21361 project - consider these ships as a river launcher for short-range aircraft and nothing more. These ships are a beautiful feint with ears for circumventing the INF Treaty (now irrelevant).


      I feel sorry for the money. It was possible to do otherwise, cheaper
      1. +7
        24 June 2019 09: 40
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        So their planes drowned, with whom would they fight something?

        So I'm talking about that and say that they did not fight. They were simply drowned as in exercises. If they were fighting, and not even on the export version, they could, in theory, drown the nearest Yorktown. But for this you need to want to drown him and have an order for this.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        I feel sorry for the money. It was possible to do otherwise, cheaper

        In theory you can. In practice, I think not. As soon as you put this container ashore you become a violator of the INF Treaty. According to it, the parties committed to destroy and not create all ground-based launchers for such missiles, including stationary ones. And the container standing on the ground will be the stationary PU. I think it is not by chance that they did the MRK, and not the container, because at the IRC the question of whether PU is not ground-based is completely excluded.
        1. -1
          24 June 2019 10: 45
          So I'm talking about that and say that they did not fight. They were simply drowned as in exercises. If they were fighting, and not even on the export version, they could, in theory, drown the nearest Yorktown.


          This is a big question - who would drown someone first. The Iranians with their ships did not work, although they were the first to launch missiles.

          In theory you can. In practice, I think not. As soon as you put this container ashore you become a violator of the INF Treaty.


          Well, do not put))))
          And tell everyone around you that he does not have his own power supply, and there is no BIOS, there is no possibility of entering data, and it does not work without a ship.
          1. +7
            24 June 2019 11: 05
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            And tell everyone around you that he does not have his own power supply, and there is no BIOS, there is no possibility of entering data, and it does not work without a ship.

            In fact, there is a less acrobatic circus solution to the problem. Just file down the X-55 version for tactical aviation. It may be slightly killing the range and power of ABC. In theory, this option even exists in advertising pictures for the Su-30 (EMNIP). With the weight of the product in 1200 kg, this fighter may well take at least two missiles. As a result, an IBA aviation unit gives a blow to power equal to one salvo of RTOs, but IBA aviation aircraft can get this number out in any region of the country in any weather. For example, throwing up gifts soaring from Kubinka near Moscow from Smolensk frontier right around London. And in peacetime, unlike RTOs, it can safely engage in the routine sprinkling of all bearded Basmachs with cast-iron pans from Chechnya to Syria, which the RTOs are not able to do either.
            1. -1
              24 June 2019 20: 59
              Well, in general, a small-sized CD for tactical aviation is already, so to speak, "on the way")))
  10. +2
    24 June 2019 09: 03
    Only from the Crimea: clicked a telephoto in the Kerch Strait near the IPC Bridge at a short course.
    1. +1
      24 June 2019 09: 27
      Good boat. With all its flaws.
      1. +3
        24 June 2019 12: 58
        If the author is a specialist in small boats, let him answer - why on the IPC, MRK the stern sides of almost half of the hull are painted not in "ball", but black?
        1. 0
          24 June 2019 20: 59
          Hide the soot from the exhaust
          1. 0
            25 June 2019 14: 14
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Hide the soot from the exhaust

            Just? And I broke my head ...
            1. 0
              25 June 2019 20: 23
              So ... at the small ships the exhaust is brought to the waterline (from the middle, towards the stern). And all this flies on board:
            2. -1
              25 June 2019 20: 24
              So paint the side of the ships, in which the exhaust displayed in the board.
          2. +1
            27 June 2019 11: 22
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Hide the soot from the exhaust

            I do not remember specifically, but there it is somehow connected with the underwater exhaust.
            That acoustics did not interfere with work. Something stuck in my memory)))
        2. +2
          24 June 2019 22: 02
          Grits
          Why on MPK, MRK stern sides of almost half of the hull are painted not in "ball", but black?
          Disguise. During visual detection, the geometrical dimensions of the ship or (with accurate identification) the distance to it are hidden. what. with optical guidance may cause an error when entering data for shooting. I don't know how important this is for TV seeker missiles, but for artillery it can be critical (again, I won't say how this paint interacts with lasers, if it scatters or absorbs, then maybe this is a good option for passive protection of ships). Generally. similar camouflage was used by the Germans in the Great Patriotic War, see the coloring of their battleships, for example, "Bismarck".
          1. 0
            25 June 2019 14: 17
            Quote: AdtskiPaPa
            Disguise

            Something hard to believe in disguise. On the ships a little more IRC, RK and IPC, there is no such disguise
    2. 0
      24 June 2019 14: 48
      Yes, I forgot to say: this is the Yeisk MPK, based in Novorossiysk, and patrolling the approaches to the Most.
  11. +8
    24 June 2019 09: 13
    I am certainly not an expert, I am a simple man in the street, but one can just as well discuss a rifle with a gun. Indeed, why do we need a rifle if there is a gun. And why do we need mosquito aviation if there are big bombers ?! I think that the author went to the wrong step. Of course, with a fool, you can drive a cruiser at the mouth of the river and send boats to the ocean zone, and then take offense at the "naval commanders". Foolishly, you can drive the army into encirclement, and then prove that the army is a harmful entity ...
  12. 0
    24 June 2019 09: 48
    Very good article, it is a pity not all will reach.
    1. +1
      25 June 2019 13: 43
      The thing is that now the industry cannot build ships of the first rank within a reasonable time, let us recall the long-term epic with the head Gorshkov, and this is just a frigate. And in the fleet there is no MRK in the required number of ve, therefore it was decided to build what they can build in this life. The light at the end of the tunnel began to appear in the form of 22350m - this is the only sure way in my opinion to begin! Serially! Build perorangi using already developed technology.
  13. +3
    24 June 2019 10: 15
    No, well, it is clear that you want everything and more. But the fleet is an expensive thing. And it is necessary to proceed from the economic capabilities of the state, to look for the "golden mean" between what we want and what we can afford.
    1. +1
      24 June 2019 10: 39
      Who else would do it.
      1. +4
        24 June 2019 14: 37
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Who else would do it.

        belay Like who? And you? You, Alexander! You are already practically commanding the commanders of the Navy !!! You and cards in hand!
  14. -2
    24 June 2019 10: 25
    A mixture of fantasy and far-fetched facts. Based on the facts given in the article, no conclusions can be drawn, too little information.
  15. +4
    24 June 2019 10: 30
    ships with a displacement of up to 1000 tons

    explain to non-specialists basic things, what ships are up to 1000 tons, that they can in terms of navigation and load, and preferably, light in steps compared to other larger niches up to 7к-8000 tons. Otherwise, I am sure that to many 1000 tons, that 5 tons are identical mosquito ships. Anything smaller than Atlanta and an Nimitz-sized aircraft carrier.
  16. -3
    24 June 2019 10: 33
    The author, where he served, in the office at the land headquarters? Where does such a null in the knowledge of the tactics of the use of the fleet in the war, especially small tonnage? It was necessary to bring the hostilities between Honduras and Tobago as an example. I do not even want to comment. Disgusting My big friend, the submarine division commander, used to say in his time, if you want to destroy a small country - give her an aircraft carrier! And three or four aircraft carriers will ruin any country. The US still holds (for now) because it is ruining the whole world.
    1. +3
      24 June 2019 11: 13
      especially small tonnage


      Well, the terminology.

      Essentially mind please.
  17. 0
    24 June 2019 10: 38
    The horror is not that the author of the article operates only with unsubstantiated statements (such as the fact that the ZGRLS does not give the coordinates of targets), but in the most fabulous statement of the problem in the first lines of his opus: "NATO is starting a ground operation, so it is time for Russia to land amphibious assault forces", - a_a_timohin (C)

    Humanitarian sect of American AUG fans on the march laughing
    1. +2
      24 June 2019 11: 11
      But Andrew, I have a weapon permit and driver's license. And if I need to go through a medical examination again, then they will not wrap me up laughing
      Envy. laughing

      And so put emoticons, it is not forbidden.
    2. +1
      24 June 2019 11: 12
      ZGRLS does not provide target coordinates


      I did not write this, it should be more attentive. Coordinates and ED goals are different things - but I will not explain this to you, it is useless.
  18. +1
    24 June 2019 10: 40
    It is necessary to supply the mosquito fleet with intercontinental missiles with a range of 9-10 thousand km. And disperse them along the rivers and lakes of Russia. Especially Siberia. Let the enemies try to track their location. Then there is no need to build "Barguzin".
    1. +8
      24 June 2019 11: 09
      Better global to deliver. So that a couple of turns around the earth and only then fall on the target - so no missile defense system is terrible. Put a candle on a motorboat and launch it from Baikal.
  19. +5
    24 June 2019 10: 58
    Quote: Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
    Destroyers in a storm hard

    All surface ships with sea waves above 6 balls (wave height 3 meters, wind speed 11 m / s) receive full northern arctic fox - rocket launchers, torpedo tubes and artillery systems do not shoot, helicopters do not work.

    The height of the 3 wave meter is an ocean swell, if that. Those. surface ships are combat-capable only when sailing in the near-material seas - the Northern, Baltic, Black, White, Mediterranean, Red, Yellow, South China, East China, Japan, Okhotsk, Philippine, Javan, New Guinea, Coral and Caribbean.

    Throughout the rest of the oceans (over 90% of the water area), all surface ships without exception are incapacitated most of the time of the year.

    At the same time, coastal aviation, missile forces and submarines retain their combat capability in all weather conditions (with the exception of the typhoon center).
    1. -1
      24 June 2019 11: 08
      Northern, Baltic, Black, White, Mediterranean, Red, Yellow, South China, East China, Japan, Okhotsk, Philippine, Javanese, Novogviney, Coral and Caribbean.


      Well, yes, but where do your operations usually go? laughing In the open ocean or something?
      1. +3
        24 June 2019 14: 24
        Chukchi is not a reader: coastal aviation with anti-ship missiles is like a bull in offshore seas bully
        1. -3
          24 June 2019 18: 47
          This is all so let's say the forks are written on the water.
    2. +2
      24 June 2019 12: 34
      Quote: Operator
      For all surface ships, when the sea is in excess of 6 balls (wave height 3 meters, wind speed 11 m / s) comes full northern arctic fox

      There is such shnyaga on serious ships with rocket armament - pitifulators. In fact, the roll angles are almost tripled. But 6 points are too much. The fox is not a fox, but not before shooting. I do not know if 3 is a meter, but on the 6 points the glass of the bridge on the 956 destroyer fills, and this 15m splashes upwards.
  20. 0
    24 June 2019 11: 01
    In the absence of intelligible information “from above,” citizens may well make such an intellectual effort on their own and give an answer to the question “what do we want from the fleet?”, True to himself personally. If a large number of citizens do this, then a certain aggregate of people's expectations will turn out, which will quite objectively show what the population wants from the Navy, and these desires will actually be quite “legitimate” starting points for naval construction, at least one of them for sure.


    It is possible that the aggregate opinions of a million or even tens of millions of some housewives can be useful for how many minutes to bake meringue cake.

    Even the 100 opinion of millions of incompetent in the issue of building the Navy does not help this construction. Quite the contrary. This is one of two extremes. The second is the incompetent decisions of high officials who have the full right to make such decisions. It may just not be a smart person who will get it, but who has the power to make such a decision.
  21. +4
    24 June 2019 11: 07
    Well, I suppose I agree that it is difficult to deliver an adequate strike weapon for a mosquito ship
    Mostly need precisely anti-battles

    But what about the fact that NATO fleets are literally stuffed with installations of the level of a harpoon, exoset, etc.?
    An air defense system that adequately protects ISCs is also likely not to fit into it.
    The same patrol Orion will detect the IRAs calmly from the 70-90 miles and just shoot from afar.
    And no air defense complex of those that fit in there will save it.
    Further, here the author of the article said about PLO - and what real PLO equipment can you cram?
    Torpedoes, hinterlands, and some sonar. EVERYTHING! But with this weaponry, the maximum that can be done is to prevent the boat from entering any channel or bay. For some real search and pursuit of this goal is not enough.
    1. +1
      24 June 2019 11: 18
      Quote: yehat
      for an mosquito ship it is difficult to deliver an adequate strike weapon

      The missile salvo of the upgraded Smerch MRK is now equal to the 2 rocket salvo of the 20380 corvettes after the upgrade with the replacement of the Malachite missile system (2 × 3 PU) with the Uran missile system (4 × 4 PU). PU UCR "Uranus" removable, and now loading ammunition on the ship is not thrusting missiles in PU, and the installation of transport and launch containers with missiles on the lodgements.
      1. 0
        24 June 2019 12: 04
        the old one looked cooler - how he would let him go)))
        and these stands with fishing poles - who will they scare? laughing
    2. -2
      25 June 2019 20: 27
      But what about the fact that NATO fleets are literally stuffed with installations of the level of a harpoon, exoset, etc.?


      1. Sink the submarines.
      2. To heat aviation.
      3. They will not climb into our coastal zone on ships, but will climb on the submarine.
  22. +5
    24 June 2019 11: 10
    Of course, I am not an expert, but in my opinion the appearance of IRAs in our time is due to the fact that it is forbidden to have ground-based cruise missiles. based on the fact that the mattress fleet had an overwhelming advantage in this type of weaponry in the form of cruisers and destroyers of URO, and such a quick and low-budget response was created in order to at least reduce this domination a bit.
    Of course, it was possible to develop the concept of container "Caliber-K", but this is again a polyative, a temporary support.
    So, I think, as the fleet of ISCs is saturated, the construction of full-fledged DMZ ships will also increase. Well, I hope so.
  23. 0
    24 June 2019 11: 18
    The author presented his vision of the situation in a very reasoned manner. It is not necessary to start with building a fleet. The fleet will be what the country will be. You need to start from the base. The author himself wrote: "Exist the USSR for another ten years ..." A country with a population of less than 100 million people, of which 60% are pre-retirees and retirees, and even with such a broken history, will not be able to afford to have an ocean-going fleet.
    1. +1
      27 June 2019 12: 18
      In fact, the population of 146 million. Or delirium Internet read?
  24. +1
    24 June 2019 11: 19
    We need a fleet that solves strategic and tactical tasks. With strategic - it is clear: ensuring the deployment of SSBNs and SSGNs in the zones of use of their weapons.
    Tactical tasks are the creation of security zones (closed access and maneuver zones) in the specified area of ​​the world ocean and coastal territories. For example, the state of Urartu has agreed with our CDF on providing security in its exclusive maritime and coastal zone, and we should be able to solve this problem with an appropriate outfit of forces and equipment.
  25. -3
    24 June 2019 11: 24
    Quote: Valery Valery
    Quote: YOUR
    Can you explain? Or - How did I say?

    How can I explain? Here you need to refute every line!
    All is not true! Starting from how everything relates to the General Staff and about the presence of the shipbuilding program - all lies or the lack of information of the author. There is no such thing - a mosquito fleet. If you really want to always pour dirt on your country, and the West is always praising - look at the displacement and combat capabilities of the main NATO ships and compare with ours. Yes, we do not yet have such aircraft carriers as the United States, and this is very unfortunate, but we cannot yet afford them (we don’t want, but we can’t) for a variety of reasons.
    Plus, at this historical stage, our fleet is defensive (not offensive).
    As for "Myths 1,2,4, 3, XNUMX" - just a lie. "Myth-XNUMX" - MRK and ZGRLS are not connected. Over-the-horizon radars are not intended for control centers.
    Etc. Here it is necessary to refute the entire article ....

    So disprove! We are waiting, sir. hi
  26. +2
    24 June 2019 11: 35
    ..... In the meantime. A group of Russian ships are approaching Havana (about 40 miles left). An American has been accompanying them since yesterday. The "group in striped swimsuits" goes well)))))



    Tanker "Kama" goes to Venezuela, 10 hours from Caracas.

    1. +1
      24 June 2019 12: 03
      Quote: iaroslav.mudryi
      ..... In the meantime. A group of Russian ships coming to Havana (about 40 miles left).

      What kind of program?
      1. +2
        24 June 2019 12: 13
        MarineTraffic: Global Ship Tracking Intelligence
        1. +2
          24 June 2019 12: 58
          Quote: iaroslav.mudryi
          MarineTraffic: Global Ship Tracking Intelligence

          Thank. Went looking at)))
          1. 0
            24 June 2019 13: 43
            It's my pleasure!))) hi
          2. +1
            24 June 2019 15: 20
            On the public web portal of Norway published information:
            KNM Helge Ingstad is beyond repair.
            https://www.regjeringen.no/no/aktuelt/knm-helge-ingstad-blir-ikke-reparert/id2660968/


            "The government has now decided that it is more appropriate to dispose of the KNM Helge Ingstad."
            "The Armed Forces have already taken measures to maintain the combat capability of the KNM Helge Ingstad crew by using twin crews on sailing frigates and other (KNM) frigates."
  27. +4
    24 June 2019 12: 13
    But the most important thing to remember is: this mosquito fleet will under no circumstances become the basis of the military power of the Navy. The idea of ​​betting on it or being limited to small ships is inoperative and unable to lead to anything except heavy and insulting losses.


    And then no one argues, I think ...

    Just if we consider the problem for a long enough time, then there will be no false assessments.

    The main problem is "where is the money, Zin?"

    For example, you can build a year for four, for example, one frigate or four ISCs. And where is the frigate to give? Which fleet? And the rest of what? This is precisely the main reason why small ships are built - to plug holes. As the holes will be plugged, they will build large ships.

    Big ships - will be!
  28. +2
    24 June 2019 12: 24
    ... what society would like to receive from the Navy
    The fleet is the continuation of the policy and strategy of the country as a whole, relatively speaking, this is the policy embodied in the metal.
    The fleet is one of the instruments of foreign policy. In turn, foreign policy is determined by domestic policy, since these things are inextricably linked.
    Therefore, the society, obviously, first of all would like to receive an internal policy that meets the interests of this very society. Then everything is simple - foreign policy is built in accordance with ensuring the implementation of internal policy, and the fleet, as a tool, is built in accordance with its mission, will ensure the implementation of foreign policy issues.
    At the same time, it is necessary to remember the most important factor - politics is the concentrated expression of the economy. That is, the level of the economy determines the achievable level of political ambitions.
    Therefore, the society from the fleet, in general, does not need anything. The society needs an internal policy that is intelligible and meets its interests. And what tool in the form of the fleet will be used to ensure this very policy, the society is hardly important. The main thing is to be effective.
  29. +7
    24 June 2019 12: 42
    What is the article about? The Navy has already given an explanation that the small-sized boats currently under construction are being built "not instead of", but "for". the near sea zone is closed. Nobody closed the work on the far field. just after the chaos of the 90s, it was necessary to restore enterprises and their competencies. The designers, too, were doing worse than ever. The restoration began with the fleet of the near zone, especially against the background of the prohibition of the INF Treaty on the Kyrgyz Republic on land. This is a necessary stage in the buildup of the industry. Let's be objective - 10 years ago there were no weapons, no engines, no many onboard systems for the far sea zone. Remember how difficult it was to give birth to project 22350. In such a situation, you cannot want everything at once. First, the protection of your coast, then zvizdyuly enemies overseas.
    1. -3
      24 June 2019 21: 02
      The Navy has already given an explanation that the small-sized boats currently under construction are being built "not instead of", but "for". the near sea zone is closed.


      And how to close the BMZ trough, which in 6 points almost guaranteed to drown, can not repel attacks from the air and does not have GUS - none at all?
      1. +3
        24 June 2019 21: 10
        Troughs in service with anti-ship missiles. This is a kind of long arm of coastal missile systems. It is not necessary to go far from the coast. And in general - BMZ is covered by both shipboard personnel, and coastal weapons systems and aircraft. In addition, the personnel should not be like the Ukrainian sailors, when the entire service takes place in the barracks on the shore. Sailor should go to sea, gain experience. Otherwise, after some time there will be no one to put on the ships of the far zone.
        And in general, in the rest of the world, under the mosquito fleet understand a completely different tonnage with other weapons. It is ridiculous to call a ship with 8 missiles a strategic range in fact, a mosquito fleet.
        1. -2
          25 June 2019 14: 03
          Troughs in service with anti-ship missiles.


          NO.
          This is one of the myths. In the presence of an external control panel, Buyan-M can launch the RCC. And without it - can not.

          Once again - this ship can not independently lead a sea battle with rockets.
          1. +2
            25 June 2019 21: 15
            Yes. All countries have long gone from lonely gunboats. The armament complex means reconnaissance, planning, target distribution, choice of weapons and target designation. Well, the performer himself with weapons. I don’t know how much news this will be for you, but even aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines do not work on their own, but within the framework of a centralized control system of forces and a single information space. And destroyers have long relied on patrol and reconnaissance aircraft. For beyond the range of sonar, they themselves are blind. I hope you can guess that the carrier formation is not quite a "Ukrainian-style wolf pack".
            1. -2
              26 June 2019 18: 24
              Yes. From lone gunboats all countries have long gone. An armament complex implies reconnaissance, planning, target distribution, weapon selection and target designation.


              All this is meaningless if the ships do not possess any combat stability. Well, who will give Buyan-M to approach the enemy's TCC on 300 km, and even in a simple jamming environment?

              And this is still a storm factor not taken into account - this ship itself can sink into a storm, without an enemy.
  30. +6
    24 June 2019 13: 21
    My God, again the battle of spherical horses in a vacuum.
    Can destroy the AUG mosquito fleet in the middle of the ocean?
    Yes, of course not, yes, he just will not go there - he has nothing to do in the open Ocean, he will drown without any AUG.
    Maybe a mosquito fleet to cover a strategic landing - no either, and no one sets such a task.

    You yourself wrote that the mosquito fleet is the BMZ fleet, and therefore the air defense umbrella must also have external target designation. You just have to develop it all too. Thus, the mosquito fleet is VERY necessary, but only together with the corresponding coastal (and space!) Infrastructure.
    And the landing operation in the USA is not foreseen by our strategy at all.

    As for ZGRLS, you are wrong with your conclusions. Yes "Volna" cannot issue target designations to warheads of MRK, but it identifies and ACCOMPANIES AUG at a distance of over 3000 km. Need to explain what this means?
    1. -3
      24 June 2019 21: 22
      The devil is in the details. To escort this is one thing, and to direct a weapon is another altogether.
      And then it could be that is intact - here it is, and you can not shoot. And this happened more than once.
      This is not a machine gun on the target bullet.
      1. +2
        24 June 2019 21: 54
        To escort this is one thing, and to direct a weapon is another altogether.

        That is why I asked
        Need to explain what that means?


        It seems necessary.
        The wave does not know how to give target designation, but it detects AUG long before it reaches the line of attack on the SGRLS itself. But Liana and Tundra, more precisely 14F139 can and A-100 can and, again, they will have time to give instructions long before reaching the line of attack, if Wave takes over the AUG for 3 with more than a thousand kilometers. It is I AGAIN returning to the fact that in reality, weapons systems are working and not an abstract mosquito fleet against an abstract AUG. And this weapon system is MUCH CHEAPER than a pair of full-fledged AUG or RK squadrons (for which you are fighting). All the same, in the GSH not sofa admirals are sitting. laughing Asymmetric responses are simply a modern reincarnation of the principle of "fighting not by numbers but by skill."
  31. -5
    24 June 2019 14: 14
    Quote: bk316
    Volna "cannot issue target designations to warheads of MRK, but it identifies and ACCOMPANES AUG at a distance of over 3000 km

    ZGRLS "Container" detects NK from the corvette and more at a distance of 6000 km (from its location) and determines the coordinates with an accuracy of several kilometers.

    For a sea-based anti-ship missile system Zircon with ARGSN, a flight range of 1000 km and a flight time of 6 minutes, this is enough for the eyes.
    1. +1
      24 June 2019 14: 52
      ZGRLS "Container" detects NK from the corvette and more at a distance of 6000 km (from its location) and determines the coordinates with an accuracy of several kilometers.

      Aha only is a container in MORDOVIA and to the Pacific Ocean, from where the AUG may come, maybe more.
      That is why I wrote about the "Wave", which stands on the coast and works in the interests of the Navy, and the AUG is realistically tracking. The container is part of the early warning system.

      Yes, I know that another container will be built in the Far East, so when they build it, then it will be possible to write.
  32. +1
    24 June 2019 14: 26
    hi Welcome Alexander!
    laughing Again, you climbed on an outfit and stirs the minds of warriors IN ??? good
    You almost succeeded wink ... if not for the criticism of some comrades ... what
    Well, what can you do .. the people, he is so ... does not immediately recognize his heroes! bully
    Well, on the article ...
    Does Russia need a "mosquito fleet"? Partly

    what So all the same part of the need? And if you need .... in part, then why such a kipsh in the whole article ?????
    it is still worth analyzing the myths

    Do you propose to disassemble the myths created by journalists? And for what, I am sorry?
    Yes ... and about the story ....
    IN AND. Tronenko did not sink
    the largest warship Kriegsmarine, which they sunk, he actually was a torpedo corvette, although the Germans classified them differently.

    And quite a decent escort destroyer T-31, the Elbings have proven themselves quite well in the Kriegsmarine. True I.S. Ivanov is also credited with the sinking of a destroyer in the Irbensky Strait, but I won't insist. I would like to recall the result of the battle of Soviet TKs with German schnellbots in the battle at Memel. This result is not that the Germans defeated Chebykin's captri detachment, but that from that moment the Germans could safely supply and evacuate Army Group Courland at night!
    hi
    1. -4
      24 June 2019 21: 10
      You almost managed to wink ... if not for the criticism of some comrades ...


      Are they who hear the ringing and do not know where he is? I saw one officer here ...

      Do you propose to disassemble the myths created by journalists? And for what, I am sorry?


      It’s not for nothing that I referred to Lenin, Sergey. The idea that has mastered the masses becomes a material force. It is a fact, even if it is not possible to understand its nature right off the bat, then Lenin was absolutely right.
      As soon as the idea that we have enough and IRAs finally take possession of the masses, it will become a material force.
      And we will mainly build them.
      Moreover, Sergey, the idea that during the war IRAs should
      will throw against AUG can also take hold of the masses.
      Then it also materializes - in the form of orders for fleets. Out of touch with the will of their commanders.
      Do you want this or what?

      And quite a decent escort destroyer T-31, Elbing quite well recommended in Krigsmarin.


      I am not suggesting that he was bad. I'm just focusing on the fact that the TKA did not sink large surface ships. Well, okay, we didn't even have the opportunity, but the Americans tried. And their boats were not like ours, and the conditions were archipelagos, that is, the notorious "littoral zone". And the speed - wow.
      Result prompt?
      This is what the example that excited you was pointing to.
      1. +1
        25 June 2019 11: 06
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Are they who hear the ringing and do not know where he is?

        Even Stalin took criticism ... sometimes. Modest need to be, Alexander, to opponents.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        As soon as the idea that we have enough and IRAs finally take possession of the masses, it will become a material force.

        what Since when did the "masses" begin to develop the concept of using weapons?
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Then it also materializes - in the form of orders for fleets. Out of touch with the will of their commanders

        smile Alexander, my soul, you are, as always, in your semi-mysterious style! Those. a certain person X (in your interpretation) in the style of "we thought here and I DECIDED" made a decision ... The Russian Navy will completely manage with a "mosquito fleet" and there is nothing to watch about here! But the current situation with shipbuilding does not fit with your "secret data"! I'm not even talking about the laying of the 22350s and the design work on the 22350M, I'm talking about the construction of supply vessels, weapons transports, supply tankers - this is a clear sign of not a mosquito fleet! If Mr. X planned to make the mosquito fleet the main force of the Russian Navy, then why do we need Tartus? What the hell Gorshkov got into Cuba? A discrepancy, sir!
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        I just focus on the fact that TKA did not sink large surface ships

        Question one .... how many large enemy warships were in the zones of operation of torpedo boats of the Northern Fleet, the Red Banner Baltic Fleet and the Black Sea Fleet?
        Question two ... what is preferable to sink ..... a tanker with jet fuel, leaving the enemy army group without air support or sink the cruiser or the escort destroyer?
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        but the Americans tried.
        Result prompt?

        Well, my friend, thanks to the commander of the RT-109, junior lieutenant J. Kennedy Pee-Ti Bots and their actions are known to many living on the ground bully ! Interestingly, the Americans built more 500 boats and the results of their work are not as sad as you want me to get across.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        This is what the example that excited you was pointing to.

        He didn't bother me at all, I just made a correction to the definition of the German ship and brought up the fact of the battle, the outcome of which had a favorable effect on the fate of the Kurland army group!
        1. -3
          25 June 2019 14: 10
          Alexander, my soul, you are, as always, in your semi-mysterious style! Those. a certain person X (in your interpretation) in the style of "we thought here and I DECIDED" made a decision ...


          You are partly right in the sense that the main decision-making centers lie OUTSIDE the Navy.
          Right now, Zelenodolsk is lobbying the second series of Buyanov-M, which has been reworked for import-replacing GEM.
          The best friend of all lobbyists from prompting Rear Admiral Tryapichnikov already announces that yes, we are thinking on the subject.
          Then the war, and what will these ships do after shooting off the stock of "Calibers"?
          And the tasks they will cut-SURPRISE-the General Staff, and not the Commander-in-Chief and the General Staff of the Navy. And it will be cut like this.
          Well, etc.

          And you laugh for now.
          1. +1
            25 June 2019 14: 41
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            The best friend of all lobbyists from promka Rear Admiral Tryapichnikov

            Hmm, shredded folk! Previously, such a lobist was the whole Minister of Defense of the USSR in the rank of Marshel!
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Then the war, and what will these ships do after shooting off the stock of "Calibers"?

            Alexander, you won’t believe it, but RKR Moscow, having fired off ammunition, will become just a target in 30 mines. from the beginning of the battle! And oh, horror! Peter the Great is also waiting for this fate !!! Because no one will allow to replenish the ammunition not to the cruiser, not the MRK ..... although if this ammunition is hidden in advance somewhere in the skerries or ducts, then the MRK will have a second chance ... maybe.
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            And the tasks they will be cut - SURPRISE - the General Staff, and not the Commander-in-Chief and the General Staff of the Navy

            I do not understand one thing, you see a situation in a future war when the General Staff has its own song, and the General Staff of the Navy has its own ???
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            And you laugh for now.

            Do you think I'm laughing? You're wrong, Alexander Anatolich! I remember very well the attacks of the USSR media towards the Soviet army and navy at the end of 80, and if this is laughter, then through tears .... the situation is one-on-one !!!!!
            1. -2
              25 June 2019 20: 31
              Hmm, shredded folk! Previously, such a lobist was the whole Minister of Defense of the USSR in the rank of Marshel!


              Do not wake the spirit of Dmitry Fedorovich, please. Do not remember in vain. Once again, this we can not stand, apparently.

              I do not understand one thing, you see a situation in a future war when the General Staff has its own song, and the General Staff of the Navy has its own ???


              The General Staff of the Navy will not have a song, he will sing along the lines "give, give, lalala, do not interfere."
              If everything, as now leave.

              I remember very well the attacks of the USSR media towards the Soviet army and navy at the end of 80, and if this is laughter, then through tears .... the situation is one-on-one !!!!!


              Come on you ...
              1. +1
                26 June 2019 09: 50
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Do not wake the spirit of Dmitry Fedorovich,

                It is not necessary to wake up, but we must remember! Remember who stood at the origins of the collapse ..
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                he will be on vocals

                smile How cute...
                The Russian Navy is one of the branches of the armed forces of Russia ...... Always, everywhere and everywhere, whether it is the main headquarters, whether it is a joint committee of the chiefs of staff, but they decide what types of armed forces will be engaged in in peacetime and in wartime develop the concept of the use of these types of armed forces!
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Oh well you

                At the end of 80, everything began with a harassment of the generals, then the media switched to the necessity / uselessness of the army and the fleet, then to the need / uselessness of weapons .... eventually it all ended with an order of the Minister of Defense regulating going beyond the part in CIVIL clothes in order to avoid conflicts with civilians
                Here you are, okay!
                Alexander, you are an honest and decent person, with all your heart worrying about the fate of the country and the fleet in particular, but .... do you think that you are used precisely in the dark because of your good qualities ????
                There is a wonderful and charming woman Tatyana Viktorovna Samolis, a good journalist in the past, then a member of the editorial office of the newspaper Pravda, she considered herself an ideological communist, in this regard she wrote an article "Purification" ... she wrote with the best intentions !!!! Later, as it turned out, Gorbachev was behind this article ... this politician used Samolis in his undercover power struggle.
                Think ......
                1. -1
                  26 June 2019 19: 34
                  It is not necessary to wake up, but we must remember! Remember who stood at the origins of the collapse.


                  IMHO after achieving parity with the United States, somewhere in the 70-x, everything went wrong. Already in the middle - guaranteed. Ustinov is already a consequence of the loss of goal-setting system.
                  And what is interesting is that in the Navy it is also lost. Not the Air Force, not the SV.
                  And we also have consequences.

                  The Russian Navy is one of the branches of the armed forces of Russia ...... Always, everywhere and everywhere, whether it is the main headquarters, whether it is a joint committee of the chiefs of staff, but they decide what types of armed forces will be engaged in in peacetime and in wartime develop the concept of the use of these types of armed forces!


                  Yes? Well, find the word "fleet" in the Military Doctrine. Or anything with the adjective "sea", etc.

                  Or read a fantasy entitled "Fundamentals of the State Policy of the Russian Federation in the Field of Naval Activities."
                  This is scary when this is defined as the main doctrinal document in your country, and not in a foreign one.

                  Well, or let's remember the birth of the project 21361 - the General Staff wants rocket volley from specialized ships, the Navy does not invent anything better than it comes up.

                  We do not have what you write. The system does not work. This is a medical fact. This is already the case. The glitzy Soviet command chains were a model of clarity and clarity about what is available now.
                  I note that in other types of aircraft everything is different from something. Far from perfect.

                  At the end of 80, everything began with a harassment of the generals, then the media switched to the necessity / uselessness of the army and the fleet, then to the need / uselessness of weapons .... eventually it all ended with an order of the Minister of Defense regulating going beyond the part in CIVIL clothes


                  And here analogies like "Crimean War", "June 22, 1941", "Tsushima" are getting into my head more and more.
                  There is nothing to defend against a limited attack. If only the ships with the "Calibers" were made seaworthy so that they could be moved closer to the enemy - whoever he was.

                  And there was also such a boat "Cheonan". After all, we can be punished anonymously with our PLO.

                  And I don’t like it all, I don’t have such a duty in life so that I like it.

                  Regarding "use" - I have no roof, and no one stands behind. Otherwise, you cannot even imagine what I would write here.
                  I’m a loner, Sergey, there’s nobody behind me.
                  1. +1
                    27 June 2019 10: 01
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    let's remember the birth of the project 21361

                    Let's..
                    When the whole world thought that the Gauges didn’t fly over 500 km, no one remembered about 21361, but as soon as 3М14 flew 1500 km (Oh, horror!), The media and experts immediately began to argue about the uselessness of the 21361 MRC ... ????? Although I probably agree with you .... after Russia officially leaves the INF Treaty, 21361 will really not be needed anymore!
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    And here analogies like "Crimean War", "June 22, 1941", "Tsushima" are getting into my head more and more.

                    Well, I don’t look that far, the analogy of 17 and 91 comes to my turn! It is easier for Americans to find those who are dissatisfied in a competing country or to push this country with their heads against a third country, and to wait until the body of your enemy passes by!
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    If only the ships with "Calibers" were made seaworthy

                    And they do not?
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    And there was also such a boat "Cheonan"

                    Oh, I beg you, Alexander! And then there was the boat "Meng" and how is it different from "Cheonan" ?????
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    I am a loner Sergey

                    smile You have the right to decide your own destiny ....
                    1. -2
                      27 June 2019 10: 55
                      Let's..
                      When the whole world thought that the Gauges didn’t fly over 500 km, no one remembered about 21361, but as soon as 3М14 flew 1500 km (Oh, horror!), The media and experts immediately began to argue about the uselessness of the 21361 MRC ... ?????


                      We'll be back to drawing ships. Well, no question. It could be:
                      1. Embed PU 3S-14 in the TFR "Ladny" and "Pytlivy" (they get up there, I specifically found out from their comrades from the Ministry of Defense). - minus 2 Buyana-M
                      2. Upgrade Caliber submarines, including the Baltic. At the time of the outbreak of the war in Syria, the cumulative number of submarines and submarines on the Baltic Fleet and the Northern Fleet would allow to block the volley of the Caspian flotilla.
                      3. To upgrade the ISCs of the Black Sea Fleet through fast OCD on the 3С-14П launcher and its installation on the IRAs (and, by the way, on the RCA!) Which would give approximately 52 rockets in a volley.

                      And those tens of billions that were spent on Buyany-M to spend on the creation of a NORMAL corvette BMZ.

                      What this option does not suit you? And there were people who lobbied here.

                      Do you know, for example, that there is a well-developed project for the installation of the "Calibrov" TPK in the inclined PU "Bells" on the BOD? And that the BOD can be re-equipped with Calibers without cutting out the second cannon, but simply by modifying the standard PU and BIUS?

                      And how to relate to all this?

                      Well, I don’t look that far, the analogy of 17 and 91 comes to my turn! It is easier for Americans to find those who are dissatisfied in a competing country or to push this country with their heads against a third country, and to wait until the body of your enemy passes by!


                      One little chance will be given to the dissatisfied - the moment of change of power, when GDP expires its last term. I think that the Rosguard will easily solve this problem.

                      What before pushing foreheads - that's it, and where is the guarantee that it will not start with a torpedo on the side of the RRC? Are we ready for this option?

                      Oh, I beg you, Alexander! And then there was the boat "Meng" and how is it different from "Cheonan" ?????


                      The fact that in the case of Maine, the Americans blew up their ship, and in the case of Cheonan they sank a stranger. Well, so am I about that.
                      1. +1
                        27 June 2019 11: 04
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        As for pushing foreheads - that's it, and where is the guarantee that it will not start from a torpedo to the side of the RRC

                        Do you have a sacrificial lamb (third country)?
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        Well, so am I about that.

                        Well, did they find that torpedo that drowned the Korean ???
                      2. -2
                        27 June 2019 11: 13
                        Do you have a sacrificial lamb (third country)?


                        Almost got to the Turks. There is still a certain potential among Ukrainians, especially in the part of the mine-sabotage war (hello to our FOSS and minesweepers). In certain cases, you can try to push Japan, in a few years, not now.
                        Now there is an intensive pumping of the ABu Sayyaf group in terms of transferring terrorism to the sea and conducting attacks from the water - by mines and suicide bombers.
                        After a while, you can visit them in Tartus.

                        In the end, AMAs themselves can shoot a torpedo for someone else. And neither catch them on this, nor even identify our Navy can.

                        Well, did they find that torpedo that drowned the Korean ???


                        Of course found, Sergey. Almost a whole was! laughing
                        And how else if the US helps investigate? These will find. They even found the terrorists' passports at the top of the mountains of debris from the twin towers, and before the removal and disposal of garbage began (which began almost instantly, that is so!). And then find a torpedo ...
                      3. +1
                        27 June 2019 11: 33
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        Now there is an intensive pumping of the ABu Sayyaf group in terms of transferring terrorism to the sea and conducting attacks from the water - by mines and suicide bombers.

                        They even came with Iran zilch!
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        Almost a whole was!

                        The truth is so much rusty that even the injured party was ashamed to cite it as evidence!
                        In relation to Russia, more substantial reasons are needed, but the Americans right now are not the same!
                      4. -1
                        27 June 2019 11: 39
                        With Iran, zilch came out because of poor preparation of the operation. Starting from the idea.

                        As far as Russia is concerned, in my opinion, nothing is needed, just to poison the homeless in the park and say that they are Russians, the people there are ready to take everything in exactly this vein.
                      5. +1
                        27 June 2019 11: 51
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        just poison the bum in the park and say it is the Russians

                        This has become boring and few people are interested!
                      6. -2
                        27 June 2019 12: 28
                        Then two!
                        Amerobdlo believed in Iranian mines, by the way.
                      7. +1
                        27 June 2019 12: 58
                        laughing Sasha, those who wanted to believe believed, but this was not enough to justify aggression!
                        It used to be the Americans were NATION, now even a normal president cannot be elected, let alone a well-planned action!
                        Take Georgia, the latest events-etozh solid farce! Noisy in Georgia, noisy in Russia ( laughing Even in VO some people tried to force the local folk to play this operetta) so what? PUF and all !!!
                      8. -2
                        27 June 2019 13: 29
                        Well, not only Americans can arrange multiple moves with nezhdanchik. It will even be cool to arrange such a provocation, which will be similar to a not entirely successful American one.

                        In general, Sergey - anti-submarine defense, strong fleet, the ability to get into the sea of ​​high-tech enemy - are needed! And do not argue! laughing
                      9. +1
                        27 June 2019 13: 35
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        anti-submarine defense, strong fleet, the ability to get into the sea of ​​high-tech enemy - are needed!

                        what And I argue against this ???? Wow bully
                        Good luck to you hi
  33. 0
    24 June 2019 14: 28
    It all depends on the economy. The USSR's Mighty USSR had the strongest economy and therefore could afford a GREAT FLEET, because of the fear of the capitalists they swam near their underbelly in Cuba! SOVIET SHARK surfaced on the Hudson. And now the pathetic flotilla, undetected, returned to the Markozovaya puddle and the boat of Peter ....

    And the people are also impoverished and shrinking from such a policy. All fake around, there was no GOST. Always for lunch I ate a kilogram of Ostankino sausages with mayonnaise, a plate of Ukrainian borscht and brawn of chicken legs, but then suddenly became unsuitable for the male part in 42 of the year !! How can this be? My grandfather in 65 for the fourth time became a father! This is a thieves' state that we, men. They want us all to come down and go broke on the doctors. They do not need a working man, it's easier to bring a Tajik without rights, brothers, that's what I tell you hi
    1. +3
      24 June 2019 14: 47
      Quote: Stalin's Last Soldier
      swam near their underbelly cubed!

      Somewhere I had a moonshine lying around .... well, the last soldier, let's go for swimming in KUBA !!! drinks
    2. +4
      24 June 2019 14: 54
      Mihan? ....
      1. +2
        25 June 2019 08: 14
        Quote: bk316
        Mihan? ....

        Nooooo, this is his antipode and in my opinion from near Kiev!
  34. +1
    24 June 2019 14: 53
    “Partly. In the correct version, there would be some kind of OVR corvette, capable of fighting submarines, having a developed air defense system, a weapon and not very expensive.” This is already - see Tatarstan / Dagestan, Vietnam buys it well, but our admirals do not need it. .. request
    1. -2
      24 June 2019 21: 11
      Even in the PLO version, this ship does not take out our threats; another one is needed. Although the case would fit, yes ...
      1. +1
        25 June 2019 11: 12
        "This ship does not take out our threats, we need another." from what? will we all design an ideal and try to cram everything possible into a small displacement? Again to make corvettes for the price of a frigate? bully
        1. -2
          25 June 2019 14: 11
          No, but the hydroacoustic weapons and anti-submarine weapons on the "Vietnamese" are insufficient.
  35. +2
    24 June 2019 15: 08
    I will speak out more than a shipbuilder than a pestilence. Reserve officer. It would be great if today in Russia they could build modern missile BNK class BOD 1134, and EM 956 projects, as in the 70s and 80s of the USSR. Those. with a displacement of 7-9 thousand tons. BUT! Apparently, except for the Ukrainian. Nikolaev's shipyards are lost, as V.V.P. "competence" together with personnel at the St. Petersburg shipyards. And in this situation, building a "mosquito-toothed fleet" at small shipyards (Pella, Zelenodolsk, etc.) is better than not building anything and discussing the topic of "ALL PROPALO" am
    1. -1
      24 June 2019 21: 13
      The fact that the four 22350 is being built right now and this year begins the development of the 22350M (7 kilotons) unknown to you?
      Russia may well be. And I could have always, in the 90s we even built destroyers for export, have you forgotten? Our current difficulties in shipbuilding are NOT DUE TO OBJECTIVE REASONS.
      Alas, it is.
  36. -1
    24 June 2019 16: 11
    Fleet is expensive. And there is no money. What else is there to say?
  37. +3
    24 June 2019 16: 59
    Myth? Rather, the reality is uncontested. There is no possibility in Russia to build its own Oceanic Fleet, now it is not. In the Soviet years, the opportunity seemed to be there, but also very limited, and then the repair docks had to be bought from the Japanese ... repair docks for the ships of the Navy were bought from the Japanese ... which are "US puppets". So you can continue to dream of something bigger and bright, but it's better when you have something at hand and not just plans.
    1. -3
      24 June 2019 17: 17
      Exactly! How are we going to build ships more 1500 dw ?! Where are the docks?
      1. +1
        25 June 2019 08: 17
        Quote: kaperazbh5
        How are we going to build ships more 1500 dw ?! Where are the docks?

        Mr. Kaperz + mechanic, and you docks on the fig? laughing
    2. -2
      24 June 2019 17: 32
      So the case is half the trouble. And the power of the appropriate where to get? For the ocean fleet requires a reactor .... And we can not diesel engine reducer turbine vrsh primitive build
      1. -2
        24 June 2019 19: 53
        Well, nuclear power plants are just not a problem for us to figure out - the problem of a reducer, high-speed diesel engines, and powerful gas turbines, such as the same GE LM2500.
    3. -2
      24 June 2019 21: 24
      There is no opportunity in Russia to build your Ocean Fleet, now there is none.


      Yes, I would have agreed to a normal coastal.
  38. +1
    24 June 2019 17: 14
    Pts rarely write comments. But right now I could not resist. The situation is ambiguous. Here, my colleague and I are two officers of the Russian Navy of the same age and we are sitting on the same piece of iron, but in different military units, and it seems that there should be a common opinion on this article, but no. And all because the problem in the existing economic reality is difficult to solve. In a word, "there is no money, but ..." I visit both Kaliningrad and St. Petersburg and see shipbuilding opportunities .... In general, we are in solidarity with my colleague - everything is sad ...
    1. +1
      24 June 2019 19: 52
      And all because the problem in the existing economic reality is difficult to solve.


      Regarding economic realities.
      https://topwar.ru/156426-na-samom-dele-dengi-na-flot-byli-ih-dazhe-potratili.html

      I am also in Kaliningrad and St. Petersburg and I see shipbuilding opportunities .... In general, we stand in solidarity with a colleague - everything is sad ...


      Well, in general, the Northern Shipyard is building 22350 frigates, it will build large 22350M frigates.
      In theory, she can build a ship the size of Izumo or Wasp, it would make sense.
      Amber built 11356 and Talvars.

      In general, according to the capabilities of the industry I am planning an article in the near future.
      1. -1
        24 June 2019 19: 56
        Well, the northern shipyard .... Right now, the hull was taken out of the dock. In my estimation it is 1500-2000dwt. Where in this volume to push EVERYTHING? And there is nowhere to build a hull larger dw. The local dock does not accommodate.
        1. -2
          24 June 2019 21: 14
          So they build frigates for 5400 tons and rent out!
        2. +1
          25 June 2019 08: 30
          Quote: kaperazbh5
          The local dock does not accommodate.

          What should a local dock have to accommodate a colleague?
      2. -1
        24 June 2019 20: 05
        On amber was about two years ago. There is no ice identity. Pain less situation saves the star. So as long as there is no rpksn and rvsn direct clash will not. But it is not for long!
        1. -1
          24 June 2019 21: 24
          But it is not for long!


          You understand the reasons for my concern, yes?
          1. -1
            24 June 2019 21: 33
            Well, if you are not sarcasm, then yes.
            1. -1
              24 June 2019 22: 04
              No, it was not sarcasm.
    2. +3
      25 June 2019 08: 19
      Quote: kaperazbh5
      Here we are with a colleague two officers of the Russian Navy

      laughing Poor colleagues, sit on the wall, chatting with your legs and no one will buy you a boat ....
  39. -1
    24 June 2019 18: 20
    Timokhin, as always, showed the level! Interesting, intelligible, reasoned and topical! Thank you for the article!
    Poor culture or arguments from the opponents of the author is a bit lacking. Comments removed a bit much.
    And under the article, of course, Russia should have a fleet of DMZ. It is necessary that in the world they would see our flag not let our athletes to the Olympiad let them look at our sailors! Prior to that, Alexander wrote a number of articles where he clearly showed and proved that the fleet must be oceanic.
    But can the Russian Federation build enough DMZ ships? In April, they wrote that they had laid 4 pieces. This is clearly not enough. Therefore, we build "mosquitoes" according to the principle that a tit in the hands is better than a crane in the sky.
    And then there is the question: if, as I understand from the RCC article, it is impossible to sink the ship, why are they in service and what will we sink NATO troughs with?
    1. 0
      24 June 2019 19: 48
      And then there is the question: if, as I understand from the RCC article, it is impossible to sink the ship, why are they in service and what will we sink NATO troughs with?


      Not that it is impossible ... It is necessary to check someone's kung-fu stronger - their EW systems or our GOS.
      And to evaluate somehow the level of our interference complexes against their homing system.

      So far, we simply do not know how the attempt to attack a modern western warship with our anti-ship missiles will end.
      1. +1
        24 June 2019 22: 09
        Thank! I already thought that it would be like under Peter I first an artillery battle, and then on board the ship! laughing
        1. -2
          25 June 2019 11: 01
          https://topwar.ru/151168-vozvraschenie-bolshih-pushek-vozmozhno-stavka-na-protivokorabelnye-rakety-oshibochna.html
  40. +3
    24 June 2019 19: 39
    Of course, if we were building massively frigates, the main pressure of propaganda would be on the murderous super power of frigates. But we have massively built IRAs. .... to find an officer in active military service who sincerely believes in the omnipotence of ships with a displacement of up to 1000 tons,


    I saw an expert assessment of fleet officers 4 a year ago at an exhibition in St. Petersburg that ships of less than 4 thousand tons in the Federation Council have incomplete combat value. It is optimal to have ships on this theater of 4-10 size in thousand tons. Smaller ships will not be able to participate in fleet operations,


    Well something like that...
    Many thanks for the article and adequate comments.
    That is, yes: in the Caspian Sea, or even only and exclusively on the Black Sea and in the Baltic, RTOs are quite interesting. Why not?
    In the Barents Sea?
    RTOs? Are you serious? Do not want to "cut" yourself?

    Dreaming is not harmful, but it is necessary to build a series of ships suitable for going out to the ocean (purely from a nautical point of view)
    From 4 to 10 thousand tons, you say?
    Well means in this range and build.
    Well, yes, difficult, well, yes, it costs money.
    So what to do?
    To dream of aircraft carriers?
    1. -2
      24 June 2019 20: 48
      In the barents puddle on mrk))))) smiled))))
    2. -2
      24 June 2019 21: 07
      ((((4000dwt is a torment for the crew. And where they all live? And where to get fresh water? Watermaker ...? On the 100, it doesn’t provide% of demand. I think the minimum for 10000 is
  41. +2
    24 June 2019 19: 39
    [Quote] However, the cruiser removed the Iranian anti-ship missile with interference [/ quоte]
    How cute, almost childishly naive and so simple. lol
    [quote] Large surface ships have much more powerful radars capable of detecting a target from such a distance from which no corvette or MRK will find anything, large surface ships a little further than a radio horizon due to the greater height at which the radar antennas are located, [/ quote ]
    And is the radio horizon at the high antenna much further? And who sees faster, short or long? wassat Radar power allows you to look beyond the radio horizon? belay Even submarines could carry out passive radio intelligence and monitor the exact location of the AUG. Read the memoirs of real sailors ...
    [quote] Myth1. IRAs can quietly reach the line of launching missiles on an aircraft carrier. The answer is no, the aircraft carrier is attacking the coast from the far sea zone and continuously maneuvering. IRAs will not hijack him, and he will not be able to use a weapon at a great roll. A carrier - can. [/ quote]
    An aircraft carrier can never physically attack anyone; this is passive ballast; deck aircraft are attacking fool The excitement of the sea occurs only when a strong wind, the aircraft carrier is not capable of not only with a high wave but also with a strong wind. IRAs specifically have inclined launchers, which have fewer restrictions on use at high wave, unlike vertical PUs, and especially when rolling. When the sea is rough, the radar of the enemy from any altitude will not make it out at all tongue
    [quote] The myth of 3. The various types of radar radar systems will be able to give the target radar target, which it can shoot at safe distances. The answer is no, SGRLS does not provide sufficiently accurate information about the “contact”, it is impossible to get information about the movement parameters of the target (course, speed) through it, sufficiently accurate to use a rocket attack with their help. [/ quote]
    Yes, it does not provide sufficient guidance for accurate targeting purposes, but sufficient for firing rockets from the GOS.
    [Quote] Myth 4. MRK project 21361 can launch missiles at ships and "keeps the US Navy at bay." The answer is only with an external control center, by itself it cannot launch missiles at surface ships. Sad, isn't it? [/ Quote]
    Of course, with an external control center, this applies in general to all surface ships of any class with the exception of aircraft carriers with airborne radar. In general, in these conditions, mosquito ships with one rocket are absolutely equal with a cruiser for a hundred rockets, and a dozen IRAs with a guarantee of 101% will drown in coastal waters any cruiser equal to their total displacement.
    Article in the scrap ...
  42. -1
    24 June 2019 21: 06
    Quote: bk316
    I know that another container will be built in the Far East, so when they build it, then it will be possible to write

    And about "Zircon" too nizzya? laughing
    1. -3
      25 June 2019 11: 02
      About Zircon it is possible, but only the non-secret truth))) And not fairy tales about 1000 km distance.
  43. -1
    24 June 2019 22: 25
    if Alexander Timokhin again argues with me then in vain. my concept is as follows. 1. Coastal aviation, submarines and minesweepers are needed in large quantities. 2 The Baltic and Caspian fleets to dismantle the 3. Surface ships need very little of three to four frigates to the ocean, and no more than three to the Black Sea Fleet. 4. Small ships are needed in limited quantities, and after leaving the PMSD they are not needed at all. 5 stop laying new ground fighting ships except minesweepers throwing money on the submarine and coast-based aircraft 6 sell Kuznetsova to the Chinese and calm down developing the submarine fleet
  44. +2
    24 June 2019 23: 14
    In the current situation, our fleet, as well as aircraft, are designed only for local conflicts of low intensity (preferably with parties that do not possess any known forces) in the immediate vicinity of our territories. The rearmament program is sharpened for this task.

    Propaganda of course works great, but even it cannot be inspired by the fact that the mosquito fleet can cope with enemy AUG (at least one), or 600 fighters / interceptors will be able to speak at least effectively against NATO 3000 fighters
  45. 0
    25 June 2019 02: 09
    A military-political bloc is cheaper and more useful than a fleet. Reception MUCH. Nobody even thought about it.
    1. -2
      25 June 2019 20: 43
      And who is easier to create such a unit - the side with or without a fleet?
  46. -4
    25 June 2019 09: 15
    RTOs are the product of the lack of opportunities to build a normal fleet. Combat stability and autonomy of such kids is near-zero.
    1. -2
      25 June 2019 14: 13
      Volzmozhnosti is, though not limitless.
      1. -1
        25 June 2019 14: 24
        No, we do not have the opportunity to build an NK of a distant sea / ocean zone, in a short time and in sufficient quantities - we do not have, well, or at least we did not have it, until the very last moment. Now let's see how things go with 22350, including M, and whether other projects of "ocean" NK will move from the dead talking house. Only after that it will be possible, with confidence and facts (that is, ships) in hand, to say that the situation has changed dramatically.
        1. -2
          25 June 2019 20: 44
          Count how many DDA-12000 issued Star and Kolomna with 2004 year. But on such GEMs, the Chinese run 054. There are other counter-arguments.
  47. +2
    25 June 2019 09: 55
    To be fair, the "mosquito fleet" of the USSR and the ATS countries was not supposed to act in a spherical-vacuum confrontation with the US Navy and the fleets of NATO countries. In fact, the Western experts themselves were aware of this.
    A quote from the article by A. Mozgovoy "Metamorphoses of a" street fighter "" (dedicated to promising American littoral warships, the magazine "Military Parade" No. 1, 2005)
    "... Back in 1985, when the Soviet navy was close to the apogee of its power, and only a few years remained until the end of the Cold War, American naval specialists, relying on the practice of exercises and games, came to the conclusion that large surface ships of the USSR Navy, deployed in the oceans, in a fairly short time can be "neutralized", that is, destroyed by the forces of the US Navy and Air Force and their allies. In fact, the Soviet fleet was opposed by a powerful coalition of leading naval powers. Almost the entire water area of ​​the World ocean was within reach of the US aviation and its partners in military blocs and alliances.In the event of war, even the most advanced surface ships of the USSR Navy had little chance of surviving in an armed struggle. But numerous missile boats of the Warsaw Pact member countries, protected by coastal-based aviation, and minefields in coastal and waterways threatened to nullify the success of NATO fleets in the open ocean. "
    1. -2
      25 June 2019 20: 46
      In general, yes, but there was a nuance in the form of the mass of missile submarines, and the possibility (theoretical) for the Navy to preempt the US Navy with an attack.

      And then the picture would be somewhat different.

      In the 80-x situation has deteriorated, but before that, it was not all that bad.
      1. 0
        25 June 2019 21: 52
        Here, rather, the organizational moment is the reduction of the MRK / RK and IPC into the appropriate compounds operating in conjunction with the fleet aviation and coastal missile systems. What is now referred to the concept of A2 / AD.
        > In the 80s, the situation worsened, but before that it was not all that bad.
        Well, let's just say, not everything is clear. Opponents weren't the only ones who threw surprises on us. You can recall the American AUG, which paraded in the Pacific Fleet's area of ​​responsibility; we can recall the voyages of our nuclear submarines in the framework of "Aport" and "Atrina".
        1. 0
          26 June 2019 19: 38
          Well, let's just say, not everything is clear. Opponents weren't the only ones who threw surprises on us. You can recall the American AUG, which paraded in the Pacific Fleet's area of ​​responsibility; we can recall the voyages of our nuclear submarines in the framework of "Aport" and "Atrina".


          This is all just 80. The Reagan team, and a sharp boost to the situation in the sea, is what we could not give an adequate answer.
      2. 0
        27 June 2019 14: 05
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        And then the picture would be somewhat different.

        The surface fleet of the USSR, paradoxically, has always lost to the US surface fleet. The ships that could cause damage to the Americans could be counted on the fingers .... based on this, the submarine deployment could not even be covered.
        1. -2
          27 June 2019 15: 16
          So the surface worked on the tracking. Conventionally, the TFR hangs on the tail of the AMG, periodically updating the CO for other forces, percussion, at least for the MRA on the shore.

          Well, yes, I don’t see paradoxes, and in the USSR, with a coherent strategy, it wasn’t very good, and there was less money than the USA, then the Ustinovs were still tightened up and the trouble came.
  48. -1
    25 June 2019 10: 04
    Russia needs multipurpose corvettes and frigates, and IRAs can qualitatively replace with themselves only missile boats and IRAs of Soviet construction.
  49. +3
    25 June 2019 10: 25
    Quote: FeoFUN
    You are definitely not a naval officer. In all your comments a bunch of factual errors, slogans and obvious misinformation, characteristic of trolls.

    Another online expert and grief analyst!
    Even I will not minus you!
  50. +1
    25 June 2019 11: 35
    The logic of the article seems to be correct, but the author does not take into account something IMHO.
    Russia is historically a land power. And our thinking is land. We rely more on airborne troops, and not on the Marines; Our response to US missile submarines is mine rockets and railway complexes.
    And this is very important. Because even if well-trained naval commanders with land "reflexes" begin to fight against the sea powers, this may not be good. The author gave examples of the destruction of mosquito fleets, but there is another example: the Russian-Japanese battles at sea, when not even a mosquito fleet was destroyed. Much has been said about them - both the fifth and the tenth. Only one thing is not said: This is an example of a land power fleet attempt to fight against the navy. (Note that in the Crimean War, Russia immediately rushed into deep defense on land.) The result is the word that has entered the language Cusima... And this was the only such war with a naval power. Had it been still, most likely, "tsushim" would have grown.
    And further. There is no correct alternative: mosquito / ocean. Yes, for successful defense it is necessary to increase the power of the naval forces. But it must be understood: the transformation of the USSR into an ocean power was possible because of the existence of overseas territories, i.e. "countries of socialist orientation". Which allowed us to have bases around the world. Without which, our ships would have become the same laughing stock as the famous Russian supercruiser that infiltrated the Mediterranean. But this is already a question of more geopolitics than military construction. There will be territories with bases - it will be possible to think about the ocean-going fleet.
    1. -3
      25 June 2019 13: 58
      Overland has nothing to do with it. Russia with 1613 was under occupation. agents everywhere. Therefore, while SMERSH was - quite adequately fought on the water. Tsushima and the result of betrayal in St. Petersburg. And on land with a fortress, while Roman Isidorovich Kondratenko was not trapped, they could not do anything.

      "There is a version [2] [3] that the shelling of Fort No. 2 by the Japanese from large-caliber guns during Kondratenko's stay there was not accidental and was caused by a deliberate betrayal of one of the supporters of the surrender of the fortress."
    2. -1
      25 June 2019 14: 15
      Russian-Japanese battles at sea, when not even a mosquito fleet was completely defeated. About them a lot skzano - and the fifth and tenth. Only one thing is not said: this is an example of an attempt by the fleet of a land power to fight against the navy.


      Sixty years before Tsushima in Japan, instead of money, there were bags of rice.

      In the 1880, the continental power, which has neither maritime interests nor a normal fleet, was the United States. After sixty years, they had more than a hundred aircraft carriers.

      Think a little over this.
      1. +1
        25 June 2019 14: 49
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Sixty years before Tsushima in Japan, instead of money, there were bags of rice.

        what Iiii What was the impetus for the development of the Japanese fleet and army ???
        1. -2
          25 June 2019 20: 47
          Mainly - the awareness of the need for such. This is the question "what do we want from the fleet."

          Britashka and others have already been the result.
      2. -1
        25 June 2019 23: 47
        and you remember that the money on the fleet the Japanese gave Witte at ridiculous interest
      3. 0
        27 June 2019 02: 50
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Russian-Japanese battles at sea, when not even a mosquito fleet was completely defeated. About them a lot skzano - and the fifth and tenth. Only one thing is not said: this is an example of an attempt by the fleet of a land power to fight against the navy.


        Sixty years before Tsushima in Japan, instead of money, there were bags of rice.

        In the 1880, the continental power, which has neither maritime interests nor a normal fleet, was the United States. After sixty years, they had more than a hundred aircraft carriers.

        Think a little over this.

        Interesting?!
        Do not enlighten, but what happened to 80 for years, the rest of 50 +/- aircraft carriers?
        And why are there so few of them today? feel
        1. 0
          27 June 2019 05: 47
          Quote: brat07
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          Russian-Japanese battles at sea, when not even a mosquito fleet was completely defeated. About them a lot skzano - and the fifth and tenth. Only one thing is not said: this is an example of an attempt by the fleet of a land power to fight against the navy.


          Sixty years before Tsushima in Japan, instead of money, there were bags of rice.

          In the 1880, the continental power, which has neither maritime interests nor a normal fleet, was the United States. After sixty years, they had more than a hundred aircraft carriers.

          Think a little over this.

          Interesting?!
          Do not enlighten, but what happened to 80 for years, the rest of 50 +/- aircraft carriers?
          And why are there so few of them today? feel

          By the way, I looked at Vick. And what is interesting - the first US aircraft carrier was built in 1911 on October 18 and named it "Langley". And then there is a list of nine "aircraft carriers" with no name and no date of construction? Strange though. And who to believe request
  51. +2
    25 June 2019 15: 23
    Unfortunately, our fleet, especially the surface fleet, is in terrible condition. The number of ships, the length of time they were in service - everything is quite sad. If we add to this the long-term construction of our industry, we get the same picture. The entire fleet, of course, needs to be raised. But perhaps it makes sense to start the restoration precisely with the mosquito fleet, as indicated by the author, with water area security ships capable of providing anti-aircraft defense and anti-aircraft defense in the near sea zone. Naturally, all this must be supported by a sufficient number of shore-based naval aviation.
  52. +3
    25 June 2019 16: 04
    “Basically we need anti-submarine fighters”... I understand that the military theme of the site obliges me to post articles of this kind, but all sane people have long understood that a possible military confrontation between the Russian Federation and the United States will lead to a nuclear war, in which there cannot be winners without complete destruction of the infrastructure of both states. And THEY will not allow a nuclear war, just as they did not allow a nuclear strike on Vietnam. Therefore, there will be no war between our states. So, it’s better to spend a hundred million rubles than a billion rubles on rocket launchers. More money will remain for peaceful purposes.
    1. -1
      25 June 2019 20: 48
      but all sane people have long understood that a possible military confrontation between the Russian Federation and the United States will lead to a nuclear war, in which there can be no winners without the complete destruction of the infrastructure of both states.


      Please read the military doctrine of the Russian Federation.
  53. +3
    25 June 2019 16: 39
    In my opinion, this is the case when the author, together with the commentators, does not see the forest for the trees.
    For, if the leadership of the Russian Federation had a stake in RTOs, they would be riveted in hundreds, and not just a few, as they are now. And there would be much less media noise, not like now. What is it really?
    So:
    - there are “Calibers” - these are “medium and shorter range” missiles;
    - and there is the INF Treaty (and it seems that it was even observed, until recently);
    - “Calibers” in launch containers, allowing, with the necessary sleight of hand, to fire them from anywhere, even from your uncle’s barn, BUT! This is a land option - it is prohibited by the DRMSD (do not offer the lake behind uncle’s barn!);
    - The Motherland needs thousands of such “Calibers” to keep the adversary at a distance, but the “world community” and “potential partners” need clarity - do we correspond in our intentions to the notorious DRMSD?
    And here, with crystal honest eyes, we present to your attention our dear “partners” - our super-duper unparalleled MRKs and submarines, equipped with “Calibers”, as well as multi-thousand-dollar arsenals for them! Everything is according to the law! Tremble!
    It's sarcasm. In fact, interested parties perfectly understand the whole background of the story with “Caliber” and the screen created for them in the form of RTOs. Because DRMSD matters only in peacetime.
    1. -1
      25 June 2019 20: 55
      For, if the leadership of the Russian Federation had a stake in RTOs, they would be riveted in hundreds, and not just a few, as they are now.


      Well, take an interest in how much:
      -21361 built
      -21361 under construction
      - 22800 built
      - 22800 under construction and contracted
      Plus a fresh interview with Dr. Tryapichnikov about the resumption of series 21361.

      RTOs are the most numerous class of ships being built in the Russian Federation, and the 20380 series, in terms of numbers, ultimately, according to plans, should be several times smaller than all RTOs en masse.

      - “Calibers” in launch containers, allowing, with the necessary sleight of hand, to fire them from anywhere, even from your uncle’s barn, BUT! This is a land option - prohibited by DRMSD


      A caliber in a container launcher can be installed on a landing boat, for example, and not have CIUS elements and data input systems in the launcher itself. Then there is no violation of the INF Treaty.

      It will be about eight times cheaper for the same number of missiles in a salvo, and the “extra” money could be spent on other naval programs.
      1. +1
        25 June 2019 21: 31
        Dear Timokhin-aa! That's what I'm talking about. Project 21361 as of December 2018 - 7 ships entered service, 5 more are under construction. Project 22800 as of December 2018 - 1 in service, 10 being built in a series of 18 pieces. It is too little. Very! And the interview with Tryapichnikov is the same blah blah as with the Tu-160, Su-57, Tu and Il civil aircraft, as well as the engines for them. Little depends on him. In fact, if the banks provide loans to the industry, we will be happy. The Grefs and Nabiulins will strike a pose, and again the brakes will be put on all programs.
        You understand, dear. It’s not for nothing that I said about the forest-trees. The main thing here is to have a multi-thousand-strong arsenal of medium-range missiles legally. And RTOs, for all their importance and value, are just a cover for the main idea. By the way, confirmation of the increase in the number of SD missiles is the appearance of the MiG-31 - Kinzhal and Tu 22M3M - Kinzhal complexes, which have the capability of launching a five-hundred-kilometer missile (or rather, its modification) from an altitude of 15 - 20 km. shoot for 1,5 - 2 thousand km..
        1. -1
          26 June 2019 19: 42
          That's what I'm talking about. Project 21361 as of December 2018 - 7 ships entered service, 5 more are under construction. Project 22800 as of December 2018 - 1 in service, 10 being built in a series of 18 pieces. It is too little. Very!


          Well, an example of a larger series or class of ships that was built in large quantities after the collapse of the USSR.
          The same corvettes - 10 units. 20380 and 2 units. 20385.
          There are less than ten frigates in all projects.

          Here are the numbers for you.

          There is also a six 22160 and a sawmill 20386.

          Instead, with the same money it would be possible to build simpler corvettes, but with UKSK, build 20 units, and such a solution would be much more useful.
  54. -2
    25 June 2019 17: 01
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    the truth

    With this approach, you should shoot yourself after publishing your opuses about Poseidon laughing
    1. -2
      25 June 2019 20: 50
      Zircon is a critical project for national security. Information about him must be hidden.
      Poseidon is the most dangerous and harmful to society cut.
      Information about him must be disclosed carefully, without overstepping the boundaries.
  55. +5
    25 June 2019 20: 04
    World War II showed that the main weapon of a non-carrier surface ship was the cannon.

    In simple weather forecasts or if one of the parties has a radar. Otherwise, as the Japanese have shown, torpedoes rule.
  56. +1
    25 June 2019 21: 28
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    Information about him must be disclosed, carefully, without overstepping the boundaries

    The point is that you have long crossed the boundaries of not only truth, but also credibility - as an example: your unshakable statement about the negative buoyancy of the Poseidon UAV, and even at the level of a torpedo.

    We have all your moves recorded laughing
    1. -3
      26 June 2019 19: 50
      We find a transport car for Poseidon on government procurement.
      We count the wheelsets. We calculate the approximate mass of the car. We get what additional load the wheelsets carry, that is, the carrying capacity of the car.
      We get the maximum mass of Poseidon during transportation.
      We take screenshots from the video posted by the Moscow Region, starting from the frames of a person against the background of Poseidon, and determine the approximate dimensions of the spa in the “from - to” fork.
      We count the density - from - to.

      We calculate the weight in Newtons and the Archimedean force.

      We buy for 400 rubles the book “Theoretical Fundamentals of Torpedo Weapons” by G. M. Podobriy and others.

      We calculate the speed that is needed for the lifting force on the body to compensate for the difference between the weight and the Archimedean force.

      And voila.

      I don’t advise you to just post it on the Internet; those guys who pay you to rent an account will screw you over.

      We have to wait a bit.
  57. +1
    25 June 2019 21: 55
    There is a discussion going on again - a lonely MRK went somewhere, for some reason, into the sea... And there it suffered a deplorable fate from enemy aircraft-carrying cruisers. Miracles. Where in the Black Sea, for example, can they come from? It is shot right through from the shore. In the Baltic, we must assume a similar picture. It is unlikely that we will observe AUG in the Northern Fleet. The climate there is difficult and the Russian submarine fleet is highly developed. I won’t speak for the Pacific Fleet, I haven’t been to those parts. Although they are already offering to visit.
    So, I don’t see any reason to actually hit the wall.
    1. 0
      26 June 2019 11: 19
      Quote: Petrol cutter
      It is unlikely that we will observe AUG in the Northern Fleet

      He-he-he... since the Cold War the Northern Fleet has been preparing for a meeting with the AUG. Leave the stories about freezing catapults and non-working finishers to the jingoists. In reality, the American AB in the Norwegian fjords back in the 80s of the last century was a big headache for the Northern Fleet - because it had to be found first, and then figured out how and with what to hit such a target.
      Quote: Petrol cutter
      There is a difficult climatic situation and the Russian submarine fleet is very developed.

      It was very developed under the USSR. The current capabilities of the submarine fleet are seriously hampered by the lack of a sufficient number of multi-purpose nuclear submarines, which are needed both to provide anti-aircraft missile defense to SSBNs and to protect anti-aircraft SSGNs. And there are desperately not enough ISAPLs for both tasks.
  58. +2
    26 June 2019 06: 22
    I keep thinking...
    and why doesn’t our General Staff and Mines of Defense read VO?
    Special comments to the articles...
    The naval forces would have the best balanced fleet in the world.
    And so ...
  59. -2
    26 June 2019 07: 29
    As far as I understand, this is just an opinion. And name the Commander-in-Chief after S.G. Gorshkov, who would know what kind of fleet is needed? A sea or land power is not determined in Geopolitics by the length of its coastline. Russia is not a maritime power. It’s just that now we no longer have naval science in the RF Armed Forces. Now it’s somehow not due to science, but due to stupidity. Well, tell me, why was it necessary to strike Syrian militants from the Caspian Sea with “Caliber” with 19 turns? Couldn't it be simpler? Why do we need to destroy aircraft carriers? In the east, the unsinkable aircraft carrier is Japan. In the west, the operational capacity of Europe's autobahns for aircraft is generally limitless. And what will even the destruction of one aircraft carrier airfield achieve? There is no theory of military science, and the role and place of the fleet have not been determined. So what should we talk about then?
  60. +2
    26 June 2019 07: 34
    If there is no role and no space, then how to set tasks for all periods? If there are no tasks, then how to determine what forces and means are needed? Well, that’s why there is now a landing boat with 4-6 boats on the Moscow River opposite NTSUOG. Why is he standing there, even with PDSS funds?
    1. -1
      26 June 2019 19: 52
      Yes, well, you described our main problem of the fleet, succinctly.

      And there is.
  61. -1
    26 June 2019 13: 47
    both laughter and sin :) one might think that in all these examples, even if it were not the mosquito fleet that participated, but larger ships (not counting the submarine), something would have changed :)
    1. -1
      26 June 2019 19: 54
      It would change, but how. If the same Iranians had used anti-aircraft missiles on the cruiser, it’s not a fact that it would have left there without being in tow, with a bunch of corpses inside.

      But they didn’t have a decent air defense system at their disposal.
      1. -1
        27 June 2019 09: 56
        According to the assurances of senior comrades, during the war in Vietnam, our 4th 75s (300kg warhead missiles) were given the order to fire at some US destroyer that came close to the shore. 3 complexes coped with the task secretly and quickly entering the specified area and hitting the target, but the fourth did not have time. Well, since the result is that he didn’t have time to collect then what the destroyer left from the first three: (. well, as the destroyer knows NOTHING!) no missiles can really hit the destroyer from a distance of 30-40 km. In general, I’m not a seaman, but I think that the most effective methods would be a submarine and an air component.
  62. -2
    26 June 2019 23: 17
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    voila

    Let's take the volume of a fast neutron nuclear reactor with lead coolant and 49% plutonium fuel (the link is in my article about the target design of the NPA) ~ 1 cubic meter; then we take the weight of the TZA turbine with a working fluid in the form of supercritical carbon monoxide (a photo of the turbine is given in the article) ~ 30 kg; then we take the weight of a three-stage Mk41 nuclear charge with a yield of 25 Mtn, multiply it by four and divide it by two (increasing the coefficient of weight perfection of nuclear charges over 60 years); In conclusion, we recall the type of radiation protection (shade made of polyethylene and boron) and the type of structural material of the housing (titanium).

    And only after that we say “voila” with a result of 40 tons - the weight of the Poseidon is equal to the displacement.

    PS You don’t understand anything about the axle load of non-public railway rolling stock laughing
    1. 0
      27 June 2019 05: 07
      To the operator. Excuse me, what does the term “Target appearance of IBO” mean? I understand that my question is naive, but honestly, pseudoscience begins with “appearances”. And as a specialist, you can ask: It is clear that Poseidon is a thing that carries a powerful nuclear charge. But has it been planned (well, you, the operators, must plan) to comprehensively ensure the delivery of this charge to the point of aiming and impact? And further. Now in the 7th grade, in the physics course, they are studying Archimedes: a body pressed into water, a mass of pressed water bulges out to freedom, the body pressed there. Archimedes said nothing about weight. Have your children finished 7th grade yet?
      1. -2
        27 June 2019 09: 03
        Quote: commander
        a mass of evaporated water bulges out

        Baby, first study the elementary school physics course about how mass is measured, and then we’ll talk about the target appearance, ensuring delivery, planning, etc. laughing
        1. -2
          27 June 2019 10: 24
          You're not sick, are you, Andrey? Can't remember the formula for Archimedean force? So Google it laughing
    2. -2
      27 June 2019 10: 11
      Let's take the volume of a fast neutron nuclear reactor with lead coolant and 49% plutonium fuel


      Equipment for servicing and preparing the Poseidon reactor was also on government procurement, and from it the type of reactor is clearly determined.
      Your hosts suffered from this fact at one time, when they realized that they couldn’t lie.
  63. 0
    26 June 2019 23: 39
    And the conclusions are as follows: the “mosquito” fleet can do something only when the latest small ships, equipped with the latest weapons, collide in battle with ships built using the technologies of the previous era.

    Complete nonsense.....
    MRK Karakurt, armed with hypersonic anti-ship missiles Zircon, can easily sink the most modern destroyers, frigates, UDC, and acting collectively they can deal with an aircraft carrier of any generation.....
    1. -2
      27 June 2019 10: 13
      What you write is complete nonsense. To hit a target you need to:

      1. Detect.
      2. Classify.
      3. Determine the movement parameters and issue the corresponding warhead code and command center for the use of weapons.

      The RTO cannot do all this in relation to a ship 800-1000 km from the coast.
      1. 0
        29 June 2019 20: 56
        Timokhin Alexander, you seem to be living in the 19th century, do you know why satellites, aviation, over-the-horizon radars exist?
        They will detect and target a missile a thousand or two thousand kilometers away.

        The formation of a unique radar reconnaissance system (RLR) “Liana” in low-Earth orbit, which will cover the entire planet, will be completed during this year. As Izvestia was told by the Ministry of Defense, two satellite launches are planned before January 1, 2020, after which the system will operate at full capacity. The commissioning of Liana will allow the Russian General Staff to monitor even small objects around the world.
        The Liana radar reconnaissance system should consist of four satellites - two Lotos-S and two Pion-NKS.
        1. -1
          29 June 2019 22: 02
          Timokhin Alexander, you seem to be living in the 19th century, do you know why satellites, aviation, over-the-horizon radars exist?
          They will detect and target a missile a thousand or two thousand kilometers away.


          The ZGRLS cannot provide a command center for the ship; this is technically impossible for a huge number of reasons.
          At least in the real world.

          In the world of pink ponies - probably yes.
  64. +2
    27 June 2019 04: 30
    I don't want to be preachy. However, just as an example, even those who set tasks, even those who are obliged to control the implementation of these tasks, well, simply forget about them with us. I would like to advise both the author and interested readers to study the Order of the Government of the Russian Federation No. 2205-r dated December 08.12.2010, 2030. "Strategy for the development of maritime activities of the Russian Federation until XNUMX", which was signed by V.V. Putin. In this case, I ask you to pay special attention to the tasks set regarding .....infrastructure and operational equipment of the theater of operations. And yet, before using terms like BMZ, DMZ, it is necessary to study where these categories came from and when they can be applied. I understand that this is all tedious and boring, but honestly, even our great leaders now draw knowledge not from the first sources, but from articles like this. Sorry.
    1. -2
      27 June 2019 10: 21
      The comic book entitled “Fundamentals of State Policy of the Russian Federation in the Field of Naval Activities” was enough for me, also approved by the President, by the way.

      Just in case, more details

      https://topwar.ru/157910-idejnyj-tupik-rossijskogo-flota-net-rossijskogo-obschestva.html
  65. 0
    27 June 2019 04: 43
    And more about the first sources. In order to analyze it is necessary to understand the Intent of the senior boss. The Supreme Commander-in-Chief announced his Plan on February 20, 2012: To be strong: guarantees of Russia’s national security. But it seems to me that even after the May 2012 Decrees, the process of clarification is still ongoing.
  66. +1
    27 June 2019 10: 53
    Quote: Valery Valery
    And this is the main threat for our "friends" and "partners" - because it is very difficult to detect the missiles - the missile range is such that SSBNs, for example, the Northern Fleet, can deploy in the eastern part of the Barents Sea, in the Kara Sea or in the Arctic (occupy their ZRBD)
    ZRBD-protected areas of hostilities.
    And while the SSBN in these areas, you can sleep peacefully. They unfold and act covertly, they can only be detected at short ranges.
    And the task of a sufficiently large detachment of naval forces is to prevent the enemy from discovering the areas of these squares.

    Not certainly in that way. ZRBD are created from “Military Danger” and higher.
    During the training exercises (in fact), I took part in this twice (1986 and 1987). The Ust-Bolsheretsky and Kronotsky ZRBD boats were driven. In a conditional version, this was worked out at each control unit. That is, the situation is “war on the cards”))) They were even driven into Penzhinskaya Bay.
    The ZRDB is created during the threatened period if they plan to start the DB. If we plan in an orderly manner, secretly. Provides OVR up to the dive point, then do it yourself.
    If the SSBNs go to the ZRBD, you won’t be able to sleep peacefully - war is coming)))
  67. +1
    27 June 2019 10: 58
    Quote: commander
    Why is he standing there, even with PDSS funds?

    PPDO. That’s right. PDSS are enemies)))
  68. +1
    27 June 2019 11: 05
    Alexander, the article is interesting, as I wrote earlier - popularization of the fleet and its problems.
    Yesterday I watched Kozlov and Dudko.
    "They themselves don't know what they want")))
    https://echo.msk.ru/blog/partofair/2452371-echo/

    A. Kozlov, captain 1st rank, captain of a submarine in the Northern Fleet - This is a difficult question, Svetlana. Since the beginning of 2000.
    V. Dudko, rear admiral - You know, in general the fleet must exist independently. Then it will develop faster and more reliably. We have such a situation, I wanted to return to history again, but I won’t. For now, the fleet is developing as a foreign body within the Ministry of Defense. That's why it's hard for the fleet. It will be an independent unit, it will have its own history - it will develop faster and better. In general, when there are two parallel structures, it is easier to show which is better and which is worse.
    A. Kozlov - As submarine officers, of course, I would like the fleet to be more powerful than it is at the moment. Larger ships would be built. Not corvettes, but frigates. Destroyers. Aircraft carriers. Cruisers. We'd like to. To have greater power than there is now.
    S. Sorokina - I would really like all this not to be necessary.
    A. Kozlov - We would like it too.
    V.Dudko - But you see what is happening.
    S. Sorokina - What's going on?
    A. Kozlov - Well, how many aircraft carriers do the Americans have?
    S. Sorokina - So what? We still won't surpass them.
    V. Dudko - But we don’t need it.
    S. Sorokina - That is, we want to go back to the arms race...
    A. Kozlov - He is such a Russian person that he will complete any task. He's ready, you know. We don't need 13 or 10, maybe 5 is enough. But it will accomplish its task. Fleet. But they must be. There are only two large ocean-going warships, and there are too many new ones.

    >Goats are goats :-)
    He doesn’t know why, but take it out and put five aircraft carriers for him :-)
    ...,...captain submarine... From the movie about Mary Poppins :-)
    1. -1
      27 June 2019 11: 15
      Well, Dudko generally had a blast in his youth.
      Seen Seattle through periscope wink
      The only case in my opinion.
  69. +1
    27 June 2019 11: 10
    Quote: Valery Valery
    His (barrier) expose just where the expected passage of foreign square. Therefore, the 80% you specified is high efficiency, our Tu142 and IL-38 respect and respect for this.

    Event "Little Chanterelle". Or checking the lack of tracking of the SSBN. Order 0012. "Palace-111". Operated until 1989. Then they published a new one.
    You probably did not understand what Timokhin wrote about.
  70. +1
    27 June 2019 11: 29
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    I did not write this, it should be more attentive. Coordinates and ED goals are different things - but I will not explain this to you, it is useless.

    I'll repost myself. wink
    "Well, strange comments about target designation of ZGRLS.
    Target designation, that is, INDICATION OF THE GOAL!!!
    And this must be preceded by the identification of this goal.
    How, other than by the size of the marks, will the radar be able to distinguish an aircraft carrier from a frigate? Moreover, the Americans learned long ago to disguise a tanker or supply transport as an AVMA.
    It’s a commander’s nightmare to make a decision and give the command: “Consider target number ten as the main target,” for example.
    What if I was wrong? Here the CBD will break your head - how to figure out an aircraft carrier? That's why they took risks, they came under the periscope to be sure.
    But there is no demand for cruise missiles at all. Anyone familiar with the logic and algorithm of the seeker will confirm. I am familiar with five variants of this logic, from “Amethyst” and “Progress” to X-22 and KSR.
    The logic is as simple as three rubles. And complicating the “brains” is also not ice - the more complex it is, the more it is susceptible to interference and the likelihood of a failure increases.
    Probably, modern missiles are smarter, but the enemy has also become smarter. Therefore, the issues of target recognition and guidance are no less complex at the present time. What's the point of a rocket that flies thousands of kilometers, which will eventually successfully stick into a false target. Moreover, the range of the SSN missile is much less than the distances between ships in the order. The guidance is semi-active, which is more understandable, but its own seeker is not very good; it’s enough to look at the diameter of the missile and estimate the possible area of ​​the “mirror”. And you also need to power a powerful radar. This is only a storyteller. The operator can believe that the ships of the order are sailing as in a beautiful photo - everything is nearby. The distances between ships can reach tens of kilometers. The aircraft carrier sometimes sailed separately. And more than once the Americans pulled off such a trick."
    This is described well by Misha Bezlyudov.
    https://zen.yandex.ru/media/morskaja_aviacija/udar-po-avianoscu-5aeaaeea4826773d1f54ecd7
    “The modern “Murukan” aircraft carrier was calmly making a planned transition from America to Japan. It was traveling along a long-known route, surrounded by a pack of warships, and along the way it was practicing combat training tasks. As soon as this enemy entered the range of Pacific Fleet aviation, we were “alert.” We got used to this a long time ago, and we weren’t too worried. Everything was going normally. But the aircraft carrier decided to play with us.
    A squadron of warships, led by the URO cruiser, was sent at night to the Laperuz Strait, and a lone aircraft carrier, through the Sangar Strait, reached the Sea of ​​Japan. All our intelligence, and the so-called cosmic, did not see this division. Everyone thought that the carrier strike group (AUG) was the La Perouse Strait, and therefore not particularly twitching. And the main reptile was 100 km south. This we later learned.
    So that the enemy does not think that he can safely climb near our Sakhalin, they raised a pair of Tu-16 - mark the tracking of the AUG. Tu-22m2 decided not to touch, and with the duration of the flight, compared with the Tu-16, they had a little weakness. Here in this pair I went for departure. Fly to the enemy - 200 km, you can track up to 6 hours, which we did.
    We were not allowed to go out at night, we were forbidden to go on visual contact at night, so we patrolled in 50 km from a group of surface ships, thinking that we were working on an aircraft carrier. I need to know that my radar sight sees everything on 60 km, so we could not really consider the goals.
    I must honestly note the excellent tactical reception of the commander of the AUG. So that we do not doubt that AUG is coming, enemy fighters periodically fly around us, who took off from air bases in Japan. It was then that I learned the difference between our and enemy side lights, I understood the difference between pulsed, flashing, and pulsating beacons. As the saying goes, serve a century, learn a century. When the squadron of warships went south, we drove to the base.
    They landed, told what they were doing, and at headquarters there was panic. The captain of the merchant fleet saw an aircraft carrier in the Sangar Strait, immediately reported to the soldiers, the naval commanders went crazy. Our Commander urgently flew to our garrison, the regiment was forced into 'duty forces'. I had to go to sleep in the barracks. While we were sleeping, the aircraft carrier sailed into the Sea of ​​Japan, it was dawn, and everyone saw it."
    1. -1
      27 June 2019 12: 34
      It seems that in 1986 the Americans stole an aircraft carrier from under the noses of the KNS. They followed the warrant all night, and in the morning they saw that instead of an AB there was a tanker. And there were only a few kilometers there. So it's not surprising.

      They have everything in order with counter-surveillance.
  71. +1
    27 June 2019 12: 24
    Quote: Valery Valery
    Hawkeye-type aircraft are not used here at all - their main purpose is aerial reconnaissance.

    . The E-2C, used as a command post, is capable of providing fighter guidance, early warning of enemy aircraft, and control of escort fighters. (Wikipedia).
  72. +1
    27 June 2019 12: 42
    Quote: Valery Valery
    I’ll explain why it’s still 600 km and not 1850

    The lift line has always been considered 1200. This is also with Tomket, Corsair, Intruder. F-18 is bigger.
    Plus the presence of tanker aircraft. Plus, the take-off and reception sequence is not all at once. Plus the possibility of landing even at the Pacific Fleet (Aleutians), and it’s not difficult to find a spare NATO and land the remainder on the Northern Fleet or Baltic Fleet.
    Well, subtract the range of missile weapons from the radius. I agree with 1850, if “for a shot”. Usually 30 minutes of work in the area is taken to calculate the radius. So 1200 comes out.
    1. -2
      27 June 2019 13: 53
      Do not use the “quote” button under a comment, your comments fly down and the person to whom you address them does not see them.
      Click "reply" and then the quote icon to highlight the quote.

      1. The comment was deleted.
  73. 0
    27 June 2019 12: 47
    Quote: Valery Valery
    It observes air targets due to the Doppler effect, but it may not see low-speed targets such as small missiles at all!!

    laughing
    Well, if Hawkeye is a helicopter and hangs, and the MRK is on the foot. Then he won't see.
  74. -1
    27 June 2019 13: 27
    1. Detect.
    2. Classify.
    3. Determine the movement parameters and issue the corresponding command to the warhead and control center to use the weapon.[/quote]

    Alexander, sorry, let me clarify.
    EDC. Coordinates.
    EDCs are needed based on the delay time if the radius of the seeker is less (target speed for time). This is for a missile and a torpedo. For a bomb, the damage radius.
    If the seeker “covers” all this, then only the last coordinates. Like with "Shkval" with thermonuclear fusion. At the last location of the target, the radius will still “eat up” all errors.
    A book on a cockroach will not have time to escape. laughing
    1. 0
      27 June 2019 14: 03
      EDCs are needed based on the delay time if the radius of the seeker is less (target speed for time). This is for a missile and a torpedo.


      Well, initially the guys with square heads prove that super-missiles will fly thousands of kilometers and hit exactly the ship, the signal reflected from which arrived yesterday at the ZGRLS antenna.

      I’m just trying to explain to them, but I can’t, maybe I’m choosing the wrong words.
  75. 0
    27 June 2019 13: 47
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    Well, Dudko generally had a blast in his youth.

    I didn't know him personally. It didn’t happen, only in correspondence with ZAS. laughing
    Like any submariner... well, he loves to compose.
    Buy cheaper, sell more expensive.
    So it is with the first release of "Ohio". Already corresponded with him shoehanger .
    He wanted GSS. But, probably, the intelligence department figured it out. He didn't disrupt the exit.
    However, this has already been discussed. https://shoehanger.livejournal.com/530973.html#comments
    Of his five recordings of “Ohio” noises, the institute confirmed one. This means that the task was completed.
    Well done, but that's his job.
  76. -2
    27 June 2019 14: 15
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    Yes, you are a storyteller, a storyteller. Officer "by the grace of the monetary sheet" apparently, at the best with it.

    And I was immediately offended, cried, hid in a corner in fear of this enormous intellect! - Is this what you imagined when you wrote this comment?! How funny you are!
    1. -1
      27 June 2019 15: 18
      Well, how else could you comment on your statements? It's just "Sivkov 2" in terms of content. Do you know Sivkov? laughing
      1. -2
        27 June 2019 15: 38
        Don't comment.
        I write only about what I know and what I own, what I “touched with my own hands.” At the same time, I hope that smart people will read something new, or that my explanations (clarifications) will help them (smart people) understand complex military issues.
        You don’t care about this, the main thing for you is to throw mud... And your irritation about my comments, and those like you, is understandable.
        It's OK. It has always been this way, and there have always been people like you.
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. -1
          27 June 2019 15: 47
          Have you touched Hawkeye too? No need to overdo it. You don’t even understand what the article is about in principle. But here they have written tales about invulnerable SSBNs...
          1. -2
            27 June 2019 15: 59
            No matter how funny it sounds: I touched Hawkeye with my own hands in the most literal sense back in 1996 on the America aircraft (now this is no longer the case) and has been on other foreign ships.
            But seriously, studying the enemy is part of the “assessment of the situation,” which in turn is part of the planning of operations (combat operations). I know a lot about Hawkeye and other planes and ships. And what you do is called demagoguery.
            1. -1
              27 June 2019 16: 04
              And what you do is called demagoguery.


              How can you give such an assessment to a text whose content you did not understand from the word “at all”?
              1. -2
                27 June 2019 16: 17
                Let me explain: I wrote about what I know for sure, of course, there are some accents, but you can’t tell everything on this resource (even in terms of time). And so I have information “from the inside”, I present it... And then Timokhin appears and says, “no, everything is not so, it’s all lies, but here I am, Timokhin, here I’ll tell you the whole truth, and even how , it seems to me, Timokhin, that I’ll make a witty joke and put all sorts of Valeri in their place!”
                This is what I call demagogy.
                To judge the capabilities of the fleet, Wikipedia knowledge is not enough.
                But there are more and more such would-be experts
                1. -1
                  27 June 2019 16: 25
                  I’ll repeat the question again - how can you evaluate an article that you didn’t understand, or maybe didn’t read (which is also likely, if you look at where you started here)?

                  Once again, go through it diagonally - what’s in the article, and what you later dumped in the comments.
                  All is obvious.
                  1. -2
                    27 June 2019 16: 43
                    The main point of the article is that not the General Staff of the Armed Forces, not the Civil Command of the Navy, do not understand what kind of fleet is needed! Then the article introduces the term “mosquito fleet”, after which the author himself comes up with forms and methods of its use, after which he refutes them and ridicules them, but now it’s as if these forms and methods were invented by the Navy Commander-in-Chief.
                    All this is sprinkled from above with pain and concern for the country, slogans and the opinion that Russia needs a fleet that meets its strategy
                    Well, did I read it wrong!

                    PS Well, for those who love Wikipedia:
                    Demagoguery is a set of oratorical and polemical methods and means that allow to mislead the audience and win over it with the help of false theoretical reasoning based on logical errors. Most often used to achieve political goals in advertising and propaganda.
                    1. 0
                      27 June 2019 17: 00
                      The main point of the article is that not the General Staff of the Armed Forces, not the Civil Command of the Navy, do not understand what kind of fleet is needed!


                      Well, open the official documents, compare them with realities and shipbuilding programs and express your opinion on how one fits with the other. It will be interesting how THIS can be justified. And explain.
                      This is for example
                      http://kremlin.ru/acts/bank/42117

                      Then the article introduces the term "mosquito fleet"


                      This is quite a commonly used expression, why not? This is an article, not a document.

                      after which the author himself comes up with forms and methods of its application, after which he refutes them and ridicules them, but now it’s as if these forms and methods were invented by the Navy Commander-in-Chief.


                      I’m writing - you didn’t understand anything. I listed the mythology that is spread on the Internet by stupid journalists and foolish, leavened patriots who believed them, and showed that this is not true.

                      Specifically about the Navy’s attitude to these myths, the article contains the following statements:
                      1
                      Looking ahead, we note that “that’s all” does not come from the Navy; it is almost impossible to find an officer in active military service who sincerely believes in the omnipotence of ships with a displacement of up to 1000 tons, although opinions about their value can be very different.

                      2.
                      Another thing is important - the USSR Navy saw the key to solving the tasks of defending the country as moving defensive lines to where the enemy was going to accumulate forces and from where he was going to strike - into the distant sea and ocean zones.

                      3.
                      The Navy did not fight at sea with an enemy of equal strength, but the theoretical developments of the fleet, the experience of exercises, both with real maneuvering of ships and command and staff exercises, showed that the combat stability of ships in the near sea zone without a detachment of forces carried out to the far sea zone is not provided.

                      4.
                      As can be seen, even in the USSR Navy, where all sorts of small warships flourished and massively stood in the ranks, they were not limited to one thing, and they were not even close to the main kind of forces in the Navy.

                      Just because a single “mosquito” fleet cannot really do anything, cannot even defend itself, and even less a country. This was confirmed by Soviet theoretical developments, this was confirmed by foreign combat experience.

                      And today this point of view is still valid.


                      However, I wouldn’t be surprised if you don’t read this either, but rush to comment angrily.
                      1. -3
                        27 June 2019 17: 25
                        You didn't understand anything! Don't rely on the Internet!
                        Are you talking about official documents? Yes, real program documents begin with the stamp “ss”, and most have the stamp “ov”. You began to seriously discuss something that has nothing to do with.
                        I don’t know about black holes and the origin of the universe - so I don’t write about them.
                        But we all know about the Armed Forces, and also about football and how to govern the country.

                        What do you have to do with the fleet in general?
                      2. 0
                        27 June 2019 21: 24
                        You didn't understand anything! Don't rely on the Internet!
                        Are you talking about official documents? Yes, real program documents begin with the stamp “ss”,


                        That is, the Presidential decree is just yellow scribbles in the snow or what? What about military doctrine?

                        Secret are those documents that directly relate to combat control, the actual technical characteristics of weapons, etc.

                        I don’t know about black holes and the origin of the universe - so I don’t write about them.


                        You didn’t even get through a short, simple article, let alone about black holes, that’s for sure.

                        What do you have to do with the fleet in general?


                        I saw a ship through the window once.

                        I see that you have run out of arguments not on the substance of the issue - but on the substance there were none.

                        Well, okay.
                      3. -2
                        27 June 2019 21: 55
                        They wrote nonsense (I’m talking about the article).
                        You have nothing to do with the fleet.
                        (I assume they didn’t serve).
                        Didn't read the documents.
                        But you have your own opinion.

                        What else? Look like that's it...
                      4. +1
                        28 June 2019 11: 15
                        I am glad that I was not mistaken in you.
                      5. -3
                        28 June 2019 13: 52
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        I am glad that I was not mistaken in you.

                        I realized that the author of the article did not understand what he was writing about when I started reading Myth 2. A heavy seeker is “cool”!!! Made me laugh until I cried! It's like 2x2=17.
                        I’ll try to eliminate your illiteracy on one more issue. In order, for obvious reasons, not to tell the performance characteristics of our missiles, I will give as an example the American Harpoon anti-ship missile (no matter from what carrier).
                        So here it is. Having received data from external sources about the location of the target (the same, the notorious control center), the specified coordinates are entered into the missile guidance system and the launch is carried out. And the rocket flies using an inertial guidance system WITH the seeker OFF!!! The seeker turns ON 22 KM BEFORE THE TARGET (26 km in the export version), AND CONTINUING THE FLIGHT STARTS SEARCHING FOR THE TARGET.
                        AND EVEN IF THE ROCKET WOULD FLY 100000000.....00000 km - the size of the head would be the same and it would still turn on 22 km away.
                        But here a demanding mind may ask: Why then doesn’t it fly 2000 km on the anti-ship missile system - 2000 km is better than 350!
                        And the reason is simple: the targets of this missile are ships, and they are moving, and if the missile is launched at 2000 km, then the ship will have time to move tens of km away from the indicated coordinates.
                        This is how it really is!

                        Perhaps the author can be respected as a person, but as an expert he wrote complete nonsense.

                        PS and if you tell any officer with an RTO, RTO or even a minesweeper that he serves in the mosquito fleet, I think he will ruin your mood with a hook (or uppercut).
                      6. 0
                        28 June 2019 18: 06
                        You did not understand the meaning of what you read. That is, you didn’t understand what you were commenting at all.

                        The point was to explain to illiterate citizens that a modern anti-ship missile in the dimensions in which it can fit into the launcher on a modern small missile cannot technically fly as far as a missile launcher to attack ground targets - and in the case of Calibers this is true .

                        And our ordinary people do not believe in the obsolescence of data; in their religious views, the control center for the MRK is transmitted instantly from any ZGRLS - this is another myth.

                        And you didn’t even understand what we were talking about, but you rushed to drool. I no longer consider it possible to waste my time on you.

                        I think he'll ruin your mood with a hook (or uppercut).


                        My hands are faster than the average person, and I have to check them regularly due to my unrestrained character.
                        So by. laughing

                        In general, don’t get sick, Mr. Officer, by the grace of the money sheet, take care of your nerves, they will come in handy in the service.
                      7. -2
                        28 June 2019 18: 26
                        I have never once gotten personal. Didn't try to be "witty" insulting.
                        I wrote that your article is nonsense! And you don’t understand what you’re writing about!
                        And now I won’t insult you. Continue to live in your ignorance.
  77. The comment was deleted.
  78. The comment was deleted.
    1. -2
      27 June 2019 15: 17
      This is not a state. And yet this is not the case.
    2. -2
      27 June 2019 15: 41
      Quote: Simeonova
      Quote: Valery Valery
      Our military doctrine DOES NOT PROVIDE FOR THE CAPTURE OF OTHER STATES.

      KRIMNEVIS YOURS? laughing

      Our Crimea!
      Why any doubts!
      Only no one captured him - he returned on his own!
  79. 0
    28 June 2019 16: 16
    Finally, a sensible article on the fleet came out.
  80. 0
    28 June 2019 21: 48
    About:
    the presence or absence of money - oil, gas is produced and sold no less than in the USSR minus fraternal parasites around the world, but in the USSR it was the country's money. Now this is a “market”, “democracy”, this is a policy formed in the 90s and carefully preserved by the party and government, plus the financing of its enemies by officials and the elite of Russia! We ourselves are financing the war against us.

    one ship - one target, a combination of (small) ships with an identical weapon system - several targets, correspondingly greater combat stability. It's like acting in tight and loose formation. When operating at a distance of up to 600 km from the coast, lower seaworthiness does not matter much. Reliance on coastal infrastructure 600 km away is significantly preferable to the opponent’s reliance on an aircraft carrier 1200 km from the coast. The only question is the balance of the force and means. What is not observed, imagine a ground formation that has only armored personnel carriers without tanks or reconnaissance and air defense equipment. How can we even talk about just a KUG without aircraft carriers, if there are not enough brains even for a balanced formation (squadron) of small ships.

    the inability to create even a ship gearbox, not to mention other things, is an artificial, deliberately created situation. Created by the hands of “our” market government, which destroyed Soviet industry. They are not going to change the situation. They are asleep and see only the lifting of sanctions and kickbacks from their “partners”.

    The design of ships is also a “masterpiece”; the list could go on for a long time. An example of the apogee of technical specifications and design ideas is a patrol (military) icebreaker with 10 knots “armed” with an optional missile module. With limited funds, you can save, for example, by designing a line of ships in several displacement options at once, for example, a frigate and a superfrigate (Gorshkov), plus a corvette, a small ship and a destroyer, using one hull for ships for different purposes. It’s stupid to save on displacement by shrinking boats to the point where it’s impossible; it doesn’t significantly affect the cost of the ship. The modularity of the design also reduces the cost of the ship. Etc.
  81. 0
    29 June 2019 07: 23
    In the article I was interested/surprised by the methodology of answering the question “what kind of fleet do we need”. Briefly it boils down to:
    1. Define a long-term goal in regions of the world.
    2. “define a list of military tasks.”
    3. Decide which part of them is assigned to the fleet.
    4. Decide on the type and number of ship personnel.
    5. “And then we would all know what kind of fleet we need.”
    What was surprising was the complete disregard for internal tasks and economic opportunities, which transfers the entire methodology (and the article too) into the category of unfounded fantasies.
  82. The comment was deleted.
  83. +1
    18 September 2019 14: 17
    Such an article can be written about any type of weapon. Infantry alone can't do anything. But without her, no war is won
  84. 0
    23 February 2020 00: 26
    Ridiculous logic: small ships for missiles need to have external target designation, so it is better to have large ships. But what, the same missiles on large ships no longer need external target designation??? And with the mandatory use of nuclear weapons in a dispute between nuclear powers, will one large target be more stable than three small ones, or vice versa??? the author “does not understand the logic” of professional admirals based on the information he has! Don’t you think that you simply don’t have the necessary information??? Become an admiral, gain knowledge, gather information, and only then “reason”! He, you see, gives examples of the destruction of small ships by aviation. Give examples of large ships not being destroyed by aviation! Yes, the entire history of World War 2, both in Europe and the Pacific Ocean, is continuous evidence of the defeat of ANY ships by aviation forces. Take Pearl Harbor for example, there are much more ships than BATTLESHIPS! In 10-30 minutes they sank everything, and there were much more of them there than there were missile boats in Iraq.
  85. 0
    26 May 2022 23: 30
    It is easy to see that we need different fleets in different cases, and this is normal - the fleet should be built “under strategy”, with an eye on political goals, and those military tasks that need to be solved in order to achieve them.

    That is why, in the presence of a conflict in Ukraine since 2014, Timokhin wrote about aircraft carriers in the Indian Ocean and near Sudan.