Military Review

Destroyed management. Single fleet command is long gone

186
When we pronounce the “navy”, we must understand that, in addition to people and ships, in addition to naval bases, airplanes, airfields, military schools and much more, it is also (in theory) a command and control system. Headquarters, commanders, communications centers and the system of subordination of ships, units and subunits to the headquarters of formations and formations and, a higher level, to the highest military command.




Properly built control system is not only an integral part of any organized military force, but also its “backbone” - the foundation around which this military force is built.

The Russian Navy is one of three types of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, and, again, in theory, this type of armed forces should have its own combat command system. As soon as we allow the formation of inter-naval groups (for example, in the Mediterranean Sea) or independent implementation fleet combat missions (for example, somewhere in the Caribbean), it is necessary to provide such a type of aircraft as the fleet with full-fledged military command and control.

And here a person who does not wear a navy uniform is in for a surprise, as is usually the case in naval affairs, an unpleasant one.

There is no combat fleet management system. There is no single command capable of correctly and correctly linking the actions of the fleets with each other and with naval groups deployed somewhere far from the coast of Russia. In general, the fleet as a single organism is not.

Whom does the Pacific Fleet report to? Commander of the Navy? Not. He submits to Lieutenant-General Gennady Valerievich Zhidko, commander of the Eastern Military District, a graduate of the Tashkent Higher Tank Command Military School, who served his whole life in the land forces. How so? And the Pacific Fleet is part of the Eastern Military District and receives orders in the "normal" mode from the district headquarters.

And the Black Sea Fleet? And he, with the Caspian Flotilla, is part of the Southern Military District, led by Lieutenant-General Mikhail Yuryevich Teplinsky, a paratrooper.

And the Baltic? Lieutenant-General Viktor Borisovich Astapov, also a paratrooper.

And North? And the Northern Fleet - about a miracle - is itself a military district, the presence in the composition of army units that have nothing to do with the fleet. So, for example, the 14 th army corps of two motorized rifle brigades with a total of five thousand men, the 45 Army of the Air Force and Air Defense, naval formations and much more are subordinated to the fleet, and Admiral Nikolai Evmenov commands all of these.

Questions, as they say, are asking. There is no doubt that Lieutenant General Zhidko knows how to conduct an offensive with several tank and motorized rifle divisions. There is no doubt that Lieutenant General Teplinsky is able to perform the widest range of military tasks - from an army offensive operation to throwing grenades at a machine-gun crew. After all, this is one of those people who, without bragging rights, can say something like "Rambo, if he were real, would be a puppy compared to me," and that would be true.

But can they assign tasks to naval formations that are subordinate to them? Do they understand both the capabilities of the Navy and the limits of these possibilities? On the other hand, is Admiral Evmenov able to assess the defense plan or the offensive of the 14 corps?

Historical experience suggests that the army is not able to command the fleets and that the admirals are not suitable as ground commanders. Precedents in our history have been more than once and ended badly.

The last example of a large war, before which there was a mass of mistakes in fleet management and the organization of its combat training, and in the course of which the fleets submitted to the ground commander, was the Great Patriotic War. We know the results today.

From the book“The main headquarters of the Navy: history and modernity. 1696 — 1997 », edited by Admiral Kuroyedov:

... often the responsible officers of the General Staff did not even imagine the operational capabilities of the fleets and did not know how to properly use their forces, taking into account only the obvious capabilities of the fleet forces to provide direct fire support to ground forces (the number of ship and coastal artillery barrels, the number of operational bombers, attack aircraft and fighters).


It was natural, and naturally it was not only for the General Staff, but also for the front headquarters to which the fleets were subordinated to that war before 1944. Nobody ever simply taught land officers to command fleets and conduct naval operations, and without this it is impossible to assign tasks to the fleet correctly. The experience of the Great Patriotic War tells us that if the fleet had more competent leadership, it could have achieved more for the country.

Land and sea war are very different (although the same mathematical apparatus is used in the analysis or planning of battles and operations).

Two decisions to fight two commanders of two infantry divisions advancing on tank-accessible terrain will resemble each other.

And every naval battle, every marine attack aviation or a submarine combat operation is unique. On the sea, completely different approaches to camouflage are used - there is no terrain where you can hide. At sea, the approach to the planning of naval operations looks fundamentally different - for example, on a tactical level, the only way the ship can inflict losses on the enemy is by attack. Defense at sea at a tactical level is impossible - a submarine cannot dig in and fire from cover, like a surface ship.

The operation of the naval forces may be defensive, but in any case they will have to attack the enemy, attack, solve the defensive task using offensive methods.

Quite different is the question and combat losses. A motorized rifle battalion defeated in battle can be brought to the rear for re-formation and recruitment. You can replenish it with marching replenishments or at the expense of soldiers from the rear units, within a day - two of them repair most of the equipment pulled out of the battlefield and restore combat capability.

The ship is lost completely and forever, then it cannot be “played”, obtained from the storage bases (mostly), restored to a combat-ready state for a couple of nights. It just sinks and everything, and from that moment the power of the naval unit falls and is no longer restored until the fighting stops and a new ship is built.

The same applies to the replenishment of casualties. An infantryman can, if he presses, prepare for a month, and throw into battle, but the torpedo cannot — and the electrician cannot, and the acoustics. And this requires a different approach to saving forces. In a naval war, the loss is until the end of hostilities.

Even medicine in the navy is special, for example, a military doctor working in a ground hospital is unlikely to ever see a so-called. "Deck fracture".

In the tank battalion 31 tank, and in the correct version is the same tanks. In the ship’s shock group there can be no identical ships, all ships can have serious differences in the technical part and the requirements for planning a combat operation arising from this. In a land battle, you can withdraw a tank or a platoon from a battlefield to get ammunition, this is unscientific fantasy at sea. The same Su-30CM in the VKS and in the attack aircraft of the Navy requires different crews with different training. The differences are really in everything.

The price of a mistake on the sea is completely different than on land. If the target is misclassified, the entire ammunition load of the ship’s anti-ship missile or compound can go to false targets, and most importantly, to the other false targets (for example, MALD) the whole missile shield can go. The consequences are obvious.

The war at sea is different in that you can lose EVERYTHING in it because of one single mistake of one person. Everything, the whole fleet, all the possibilities of the country to protect itself from an attack from the sea. Even a nuclear strike on a motorized rifle regiment is not capable of depriving it of its combat effectiveness completely if personnel are ready to act in such conditions.

And at sea, making one wrong decision, or the right, but the belated, you can lose everything. You can instantly lose the war entirely. And then there will be no chance to fix something.

All this requires special knowledge from the military personnel of command structures, and an understanding of how it all works in the Navy. But we know that it is precisely in such a volume that land officers simply do not give them. Nowhere.

Can a tankman plan a raid of submarines near an array of low-frequency hydrophones somewhere in the Gulf of Alaska? This is a rhetorical question in reality, but, what is worse, the tankman and the practical feasibility of other people's plans will not be able to assess, will not be able to understand his subordinate in naval form, and distinguish between a good and feasible plan from a bad and delusional one.

Of course, for something it is possible to introduce double submission, when both the Main Command and the General Staff of the Navy can also contribute to the planning of military operations, but now the Main Command of the Navy is a purely administrative body and that the Admirals want to drive more forces and means to the Main Marine Parade. rather than strategic doctrines, is very indicative - they also want to manage something.

How is all this made possible?

The reasons are described by the expression “well-intentioned, the road to hell is paved”. Here is the case.

Russia is a unique formation from the geopolitical point of view - our country has four fleets and one flotilla in unrelated theaters of military operations, a high level of threat from the sea, and at the same time a huge land border with its neighbors, some of which are in dire need of training.

At the same time, depending on the type of military conflict, Russia will have to either begin independent actions by the forces of the fleets, or vice versa, subjugate the fleets, and the rest of the troops to some single headquarters, for which district headquarters are now trying to pass. And the combat fleet management system should easily allow the transition from one scheme to another.

Are we waging the same war as the Second World War or repulsing the Kuriles from Japan? Then we have a fleet and the forces of the military district are fighting under a single command. Are we conducting an extensive anti-submarine operation in the Pacific against the US in a threatened period? Then the district is not involved here, the Main Command and the Main Staff of the Navy directly control the fleets. The transition from one “regime” to another must be very simple and well worked out.

In the middle of 2000, an attempt was made to create such a universal control system. It was then that the Chief of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, General Yuri Baluyevsky, proposed dismantling the archaic system of the Military Districts in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, which had become obsolete at that time, and replace it with the Operational-Strategic Command Command (USC).

Destroyed management. Single fleet command is long gone

Army General Yuri Nikolayevich Baluevsky


A feature of the ideas of Baluyevsky was that USC in its understanding were purely headquarters structures, responsible only for the combat management of interspecific groups. These were not administrative bodies that included business units, a mass of service units and having permanent administrative borders in the territory of the Russian Federation. These were “mixed” interspecific headquarters, not burdened by administrative tasks, responsible for “their” future theaters and used only in wartime to solve tasks in their area of ​​responsibility. At the same time, under different conditions, they could be allocated a different number of forces and means, including large connections and associations. The entire administrative part and economic management should have been put out of the box and work according to a separate scheme.

If it is necessary to ensure unified command of both the fleet and the forces of the ground forces, such a headquarters would be able to simultaneously command a separate fleet (or part of it) and aviation and land forces. At the same time, the composition of the subordinate USC connections, and the time during which they would be subordinate to the USC, would depend on the problem being solved and would not be a constant.

Such a scheme very much reminded how organized the management of troops in the United States.

The first attempts to experiment with such combat control bodies were unsuccessful, but, frankly, due to the lack of experience in the management of interspecific groups, and not because of the initial depravity of the idea. The idea had to be brought to the working realization, but instead, in the summer of 2008, Baluevsky was fired from the post of the NGS. According to some versions, as a result of intrigues from the commanders of the districts, from whom the reform according to his plans would have taken everything. However, this may be nothing more than rumors.

General Nikolai Makarov, who replaced Baluyevsky, however, continued to “move” the idea of ​​USC within the framework of the extensive reform of the military command and control of the RF Armed Forces under his leadership. Here it is only realized that it turned out to be quite different from what it was intended at Baluyevsky.


Army General Nikolai Egorovich Makarov


According to Makarov, the districts simply enlarged and received the status of USC in parallel with their old military district status. And, most importantly, in the subordination of these USC-districts, fleets located "in their" territory were also introduced. It was motivated by the fact that the USC Commander, in whose hands all the forces and means in the theater of operations, would be able to manage them more effectively than if he had only his own, ground forces and part of the aviation. In addition, the top political leadership of the new command and control system was presented as less cumbersome, where all the issues of combat control were “left” for the General Staff, and in peacetime the command of the armed forces remained combat-oriented and material and technical equipment (including the Navy). It was believed that such changes in command structures are some form of "optimization" (and in fact - the reduction of "extra" frames) of the latter.

Thus, the first and main step was taken towards the de facto elimination of a single type of the Armed Forces - the Navy, and its transformation into a kind of "naval units of the ground forces".

Makarov's ideas quickly found support from Anatoly Serdyukov, who became defense minister, who saw this as an opportunity to reduce the parallel command structures of the fleet and ground forces that performed similar or identical tasks, but within the framework of "their" air force.

And the reorganization began. In 2010, the formation of a new type of military districts — operational strategic commands — began, at the same time submission to these unions and fleets began. In the western direction, due to different conditions and threats in the Baltic direction and in the Arctic, it was not immediately possible to form effective USCs, and the organizational and staff structure that exists now had to go through trial and error in some tragicomic ones.

It didn’t work out with optimization - the USC district headquarters had so many administrative tasks that they, on the contrary, turned into stagnant and awkward monsters who could hardly react quickly to changes in the situation, but they were bogged down in essentially non-military issues.

One way or another, but at the time when the fleets were subordinated to the army headquarters, the existence of a single type of the Armed Forces, the Navy, was already called into question.

Let us imagine an example: by the nature of the radio exchange and proceeding from the analysis of the current situation, the intelligence of the Navy understands that the enemy is going to concentrate against the Russian forces in the Pacific region the reinforced grouping of submarines, with the probable task of being ready to break the sea communications between Primorye on the one hand and Kamchatka and Chukotka on the other.

An emergency solution could be a maneuver by anti-submarine aviation from other fleets ... but now it is first necessary that the ground forces officers from the GSH correctly evaluate the information from the Navy, believe in it, so that the naval section of the GSH will confirm the conclusions made by the Navy command in of the paratroopers, military intelligence also came to the same conclusions, so that the arguments of one of the district commanders, fearing that the enemy submarines in his theater would begin to drown "his" IRC and BDK (and then he would answer for them) Not later, and only later through the General Staff, one or another USC district will receive an order to “give” its planes to its neighbors. In this chain there can be a lot of failures, each of which will lead to the loss of one of the most valuable resources in a war - time. And sometimes lead to the failure of vital action for the defense of the country.

It was here that the main striking force on the ocean directions was lost, and not only the Navy, but the RF Armed Forces as a whole - the Naval Rocket-carrying Aviation of the Navy. It as a kind of troops capable of maneuvering between theaters, and for this reason, should have central submission simply had no place in the new system. Airplanes and pilots left for the Air Force, with time the main tasks shifted to bombing ground targets with bombs, which is logical for the Air Force. Here are just an extra "get" a large shipboard strike group of the enemy in the sea today there is nothing.

And this we do not consider such a human factor as tyranny, when the land commander with authority will voluntarily give the sailors impracticable suicidal orders, and then also plan the actions of the ground forces on the assumption that these orders will be executed. However, the option with the admiral-tyrant in the Northern Fleet, foolishly sending infantry to certain death, is no better. The system in which the districts and fleets are consolidated into monstrous associations makes such things possible, unfortunately, even has the power to make them happen.

Something is already happening. In the video below, the teachings of the Marine Corps of the Pacific Fleet on the territory of an abandoned Bechevinskaya Bay in Kamchatka, there used to be a small naval base, and now - bears. We look.



As can be seen, the reform did not lead to a special increase in combat capability. The marines tear trenches off the very edge of the coast (they will be destroyed by fire from the sea from a safe distance), try to destroy sea targets from ground ATGMs (this trick doesn’t work above water), shoot Grad cannons and MLRS (classics - combat between the Libyan MLRS and HMS Liverpool in the 2011 year - the “Grads” were mixed with ground with 114-mm cannon fire. Shooting at ships is difficult). If the marines were to defend the coast in such a way, by the time the first enemy units landed on the edge of the water, there would be no living people among the defenders. But the upcoming "happy" is not less - the landing of the rescue ship on motorboats revives the Great Patriotic, in memory only the power weapons the enemy is now different, however, the landing of an airborne assault from an anti-submarine helicopter on the coastline is a phenomenon of the same order. One “buried in the ground” 40-mm AGS Mk.19 with a calculation that can shoot from a closed position and a supply of tapes, and a pair of machine guns to cover it - and we will have our own Omaha Beach. In general, the real enemy would have interrupted all the defenders, but no one would have escaped the “beach” from the living ones. But "in the expense of" in this case, displays elite without discounts personnel, people who have invested in the preparation of wild funds, and which, if properly used, would cost the division of the soldiers "simpler." It turns out that no "integration" of the fleet into the ground forces raised the combat effectiveness of either the fleet itself or the marines.

The geographical assignment of territories to one or another command also raises questions.

We look at the map.


Pink - Western Military District, brown - Southern Military District, blue - Northern Fleet, yellow - Eastern Military District, green - Central Military District


The Novosibirsk Islands belong to the Northern Fleet USC. But the territory belonging to the Eastern Military District is 60 kilometers from them, and the nearest territory referring to the Northern Fleet (sounds like an oxymoron, but that's how we have it all) as much as 1100. Nothing like?

Let us turn once more to the above-mentioned book edited by ex-Commander Kuroyedov:

Occasionally, incidents such as the one that occurred in 1941 on the Moonsund Islands, when troops defending on Fr. Ezel, by order of the General Staff, were subordinated to one front, and on Fr. Dago - to another.


And how in such conditions to interact? Based on the goodwill of commanders of all levels?

But the "brilliant" idea to integrate fleets and districts was not the last nail in the coffin of the Navy as a single type of aircraft.

The second blow was initiated by A.E. Serdyukov moving the General Staff of the Navy to St. Petersburg.

This decision would bring as much harm as no diversion would bring. It is not necessary to hang all dogs indiscriminately on A.E. Serdyukov, despite all the inconsistencies of his actions, it is impossible to define them all as definitely harmful, he did a lot of useful things, but in the case of relocations of fleet command structures everything is unequivocal - it was a malicious solution in its pure form.

We will not go into details, they are sufficiently covered in the mass media and on the “specialized” forums, we’ll dwell on the main thing - when the Navy’s General Staff “moved” to St. Petersburg, the Navy’s Central Command Post — the Central Operations Center, and the control of hostilities remained “orphaned” fleet could be carried out globally with real-time intelligence. The uninitiated person is simply unable to imagine how huge and complex the complex was behind these three letters, complex both technically and organizationally. The transfer of the General Staff of the Navy to St. Petersburg left the CCU unclaimed - it lost its functionality separately from the General Staff. And then there was a simple one-way. Since 1 November 2011, the management of ALL the forces of the Navy transferred to the General Staff KP, moreover, the technical equipment of the Central Dispatch Center and the staff were “optimized”, and that’s it - the control remained under the General Staff, within the framework of the new CCP of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation and the branches of the troops of central subordination, except for the Strategic Missile Forces, in which the command and control system remained intact (and thank God).

And this is despite the fact that the new unified TsKP of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, organized under the auspices of the General Staff, does not have equal capabilities for managing the fleets with the old TsKP Navy. Frames too.

Thus, following the “ripping off” of the Navy in USC districts, the unified management system was eliminated, which in fact deprived the fleet of competent management, and the Main Committee turned it into a strictly logistical unit, which has nothing to do with the command of the Navy.

It is not hard to guess that when “they come for us,” the whole system will fall like a house of cards. We had it already, at a different technical level, during the Great Patriotic. And then the fleet, though played an important role, but its potential is not realized even close. The system did not work as it should. But we fought with the enemy, who "came for us" by land. Now everything will be different.

What do we have to do? Instead of breeding tank-sea monsters, with households forced to cover an area slightly smaller than the area of ​​Australia and the area of ​​responsibility from Krasnoyarsk to Seattle, we should return to the original USC idea as a purely military interspecific headquarters, whose subordination would include those associations and connections that are needed “here and now” for solving a specific military task.

Let the fleet be a fleet with its full-fledged, and not castrated, command and control system, with the Main Command, which is the Main Command, and not the reserve of future retirees and the sinecourt for making money, whose role in military management is limited to parades and holidays, and the tasks — logistics and weapons and other material means.

And let the district be what it should be - the “harvesting” of a front or group of armies, as was the case during the Great Patriotic War. And let USC be the headquarters, used only when necessary. We are conducting a joint operation by the army, the fleet and the VKS - all forces in the region go under USC, which ensures the unity of command. The fleet is fighting for the safety of communications, and in this case there is no need for any USC, the Navy is able to (should) solve such tasks independently, by forces of both surface ships and submarines, and naval aviation.

Such a system will be much more flexible.

And it will not break the management of the types of armed forces, as the current one. It can be represented and VKS, and the Navy, and ground forces. USC officers must rotate in peacetime, coming into it from the Navy, VKS, district headquarters, and returning back after some time - this will allow you to have a good understanding between the USC and those associations that may be included in its composition. And the commander of USC can be assigned "under the task." We are talking about the reflection of the enemy's air offensive operation - and our commander from the VKS, and the General Staff sends him additional aviation units to reinforce. Is there a threat from the sea? We put the commander of the admiral. Moving our mechanized legions into the very heart of the enemy on the ground? The general takes the post in green. Everything is logical and correct. Such a headquarters can even be taken from the theater of war if it is not needed there and it can reinforce a dangerous direction - oh, how necessary are the headquarters in the war, especially the "knocked down" and experienced ones.

But for this, someone should not be afraid to cancel previously made wrong decisions, despite the fact that they were accompanied by what kind of advertising in the press. This must be done for the sake of the country's defense.

However, any adversary can force us to come to the necessary states by force, as has been the case many times before, but we so want to believe that one day we will learn how to prepare for war in advance ...
Author:
Photos used:
lenpexlpku.ru, Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, Wikipedia
186 comments
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  1. polar fox
    polar fox April 18 2019 06: 18
    +9
    nothing new ... our "commander-in-chief" in all spheres so. well, except for friends, everything is fine. yes, and the suitcases of the dough with relatives are already securely arranged for everyone abroad.
    1. vladimirZ
      vladimirZ April 18 2019 07: 18
      38
      When the system "the shoemaker bakes pies, and the pie-maker sharpens the boots" is in effect, there will be a mess in everything.
      Everywhere should be professionals. The naval commanders should not command the fleets, but the naval admirals by military districts.
      And at the head of the Ministry of Defense should be a professional military man, not a builder in the Army who has not served, and who has no idea what the Army and Navy are. Therefore, he is engaged in ostentatious events, such as tank biathlon, military park exhibitions, museums, scientific and production companies, and now they are also planning to completely transfer the Army to a professional contract basis.
      In general, some kind of absurdity in the management of the Army and Navy in Russia!
      1. timokhin-aa
        April 18 2019 08: 33
        15
        In general, some kind of absurdity in the management of the Army and Navy in Russia!


        Fleet in particular, in the army in this regard, a better case.
        1. Earthshaker
          Earthshaker April 18 2019 09: 01
          +7
          Not only in management, MTO also on the residual principle.
        2. venik
          venik April 18 2019 15: 45
          +1
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          Fleet in particular, in the army in this regard, a better case.

          ======
          Oh oh ???
        3. TokarevT
          TokarevT 2 July 2019 18: 57
          -2
          Good afternoon! Do not tell me, your article was about torpedo armament, variants of which were lobbied by former admirals for their own opportunistic considerations? This article was later removed from the VO with an apology to the admirals. It was a good, interesting, well-reasoned article.
          1. Frieda
            Frieda 11 July 2019 20: 30
            0
            Quote: TokarevT
            from own opportunistic considerations

            Sumer, chi ni?
            1. TokarevT
              TokarevT 11 July 2019 20: 33
              0
              Of the Jews I will. Do you have something against it?
              1. Frieda
                Frieda 11 July 2019 20: 45
                0
                Quote: TokarevT
                Of the Jews I will. Do you have something against it?

                No against the Jews, but against the mudflows, yes. How long have Jews used the apostrophe when writing Russian words?
                1. TokarevT
                  TokarevT 11 July 2019 20: 46
                  0
                  Yes, a long time. The usual thing.
      2. YOUR
        YOUR April 20 2019 02: 22
        +1
        But because ... an example of the commander of the VKS is pure infantry. He graduated from the Omsk Higher Combined Arms Command School; before his appointment, he had no relation whatsoever to either aviation or air defense. Without detracting from his personal merits, he shook his hands in hot places, but what is his experience in managing aviation and air defense, missile defense and space forces.
        Considered what is closer to me in spirit. But so I think if you dig around a sufficient number we will find generals who hold positions not in their profile.
        I remember when the reorganization of air defense began. First, fighter aircraft were withdrawn from the PV, then separate armies were liquidated and transferred to the districts. When representatives of the district headquarters arrived at our checkpoint to receive. And then something Chinese flew along the border, either a scout or a helicopter rummaging around the outposts. I will not mention it now. How these inspectors were sent and the military work began, and they stood staring blankly at the air defense, asking where they see the goals and why they were all so excited.
    2. Beringovsky
      Beringovsky April 19 2019 00: 11
      11
      polar fox
      nothing new ... our "commander-in-chief" in all spheres so

      Leave grandpa alone already! He is old, it’s hard for him. He’s shooting every day for TV, handing out medals there, ticking a ribbon, then yes ... he’s not up to you ...
      1. Fan-fan
        Fan-fan April 19 2019 04: 58
        +3
        Moreover, a rumor appeared that his son-in-law, billionaire Kirill Shamalov, had divorced his daughter, and this added some problems to his grandfather. Not up to government tasks for him now.
        1. PavelT
          PavelT April 20 2019 00: 02
          0
          Yah! I do not believe! Although they write: http://rucompromat.com/articles/kirill_shamalov_nedoschital_do_milliarda
          That this son-in-law is not friends with his head ??? They gave him that kind of money through Novatek and Sibur, but he behaves so badly! Where is human gratitude? Where is the world going?
  2. rocket757
    rocket757 April 18 2019 06: 53
    +7
    All concepts are either refuted or approved by WAR !!!
    A single, understandable, feasible concept should be .... tactics, troops, MTOs are being prepared for it.
    In short, wherever you look, you need to check everything .... but any experiments, reorganizations, these are costs and a mess, as a rule!
    We need military geniuses! we want to revive whom ???
  3. venik
    venik April 18 2019 07: 24
    16 th
    I read the title: "Destroyed management. Single fleet command is long gone"... And he made a bet with himself:" Author: A. Timokhin ".... I opened the article, looked at the end and was convinced: The author is really A. Timokhin !!! I won!
    Conclusion: If the name is "Scandalous" (like "Everything is lost! Plaster cast! Customer leaves! ") - 9 out of 10 - by A. Timokhin!
    I recognize the darling by his gait, And Timokhin - by the "headlines"! wassat
    1. tlauicol
      tlauicol April 18 2019 07: 45
      18
      And between the title and the last name of the author did not read?
      1. victor50
        victor50 April 18 2019 08: 25
        12
        Quote: Tlauicol
        And between the title and the last name of the author did not read?

        Quote: Tlauicol
        And between the title and the last name of the author did not read?

        Can not! Yes and no - he is a genius! lol
        1. LeonidL
          LeonidL April 18 2019 20: 23
          -4
          Read it carefully. There, simply, as in all the articles of this prolific theorist and for the guardian fleet, the plucked and jerky information from open sources, and very tendentious. Why is this all? This is another question.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Paranoid50
            Paranoid50 April 24 2019 01: 23
            +1
            Quote: LeonidL
            Why is this all? This is another question.

            1. Self-interest. Printed signs are transformed into monetary according to tariffication. yes
            2. Vanity. The complex of a failed commander (in this case, a naval commander) calls for breaking the system and overthrowing the foundations, regardless of the result of this "breaking". laughing
            There are still moments, but perhaps enough marked. I read the article from the principle and did not regret it ... What a lump, what a seasoned humane !!! fellow Give free rein - he would have forbidden the KMB from the marines. Totally. am Eh-bo, delivered about the teachings.wassat Well, okay, an objective opinion is from many subjective ones. It's just the degree of subjectivity, yeah. This means that Timokhin has developed a kind of tandem with an insanely alternative (alternatively insane) "physicist" Maksimka. As a rule, their articles are published at about the same time. This is how Timokhin plays a "good analyst", while his colleague has repeatedly spattered everyone here with saliva and shit. laughing Well, the audience is catching up with them (a bunch of aggressive amateurs, most of whom jumped from the political branches, or old acquaintances trolls). This was especially evident when, literally with a difference of several days, both authors trampled on the topic of Poseidon. So the question "why?" Is perhaps no longer relevant. hi
            1. LeonidL
              LeonidL April 24 2019 02: 30
              0
              I completely agree with your analysis. The worthlessness of the last cries about the "sinking sofa" is very well illustrated by the events of the last days. By the way, Timokhin, the guardian "for the Fleet," was previously the same ardent guardian, for example, for light single-engine fighters;
      2. venik
        venik April 18 2019 08: 46
        -6
        Quote: Tlauicol
        And between the title and the last name of the author did not read?

        =======
        From what? I read it and even put a "+" to the author .... Although something aroused bewilderment, for example: discussions about losses in the fleet and ground forces look simply "touching" - they emphasize once again by the author himself the thesis put forward that a naval officer should meddle in "land" affairs ..... But the reasoning about WHAT command should be (troops and navy) is difficult not to agree!
        But it was about something else: "hysterical", "loud" headlines are more "to face" some "couch blogger" striving to "catch up with the rating" in order to "make money" on it later, but certainly not a military analyst (all the more , if he is also a career officer) !!!
        1. LeonidL
          LeonidL April 18 2019 20: 25
          -1
          He is not a military analyst or a staff officer. This is immediately noticeable. At best, a diligent collector of open information.
          1. Fan-fan
            Fan-fan April 19 2019 05: 07
            +8
            But at least he explains and gives examples, but from the TV only unsubstantiated "agitation" rush, they say, the citizens are calm, everything is under control, our smartest government and the same generals in the Defense Ministry and the Navy are doing everything right and no one can do it better.
            1. LeonidL
              LeonidL April 19 2019 19: 55
              +2
              The answer is simple - this is not a topic for lovers of "openness" and "transparency", but the work of the President and his team, not just the government (the siloviki are not subordinate to him), but the work of the President and his team, is well-deserved respect among professionals, not only Russian, but also foreign professionals. Let me remind you once again that the "public" discussion of the naval program by amateurs after Tsushima led to a delay in the implementation of the fleet rearmament program. It is necessary to clearly distinguish between those areas where the opinions of amateurs are of some interest, and those where their intervention is counterproductive. An example, and an excellent example, was shown by Putin, who suddenly laid out the trump cards, including Poseidon. Amateurs, using open sources, appeal to completely ridiculous spending, the creation of monsters, gigantic spending in the field of naval shipbuilding, to a kind of gigantomania and hyper-centralization in management - to the destruction of a well-functioning management mechanism. The question is why and why a wave of such articles suddenly started? That is why I express my opinion, my position on these articles is deeply negative. The fleet of new ships of the first rank without bases is a wandering circus of a tent of potential suicides, such as the Pacific squadrons of the Tsushima times, carrying everything and everyone on themselves and with them, but not having an air group cover. In addition, such a fleet has no real strategic goals in the modern policy of the Russian Federation, well, super centralized control of fleets has already existed in the history of Russia and the USSR and has not brought anything good to anyone. And the Russian Federation is not the USSR either in terms of ideology or in terms of economic and production capabilities. In addition, when laying the fleet today, you need to plan its use for a dozen years ahead. For example, think about the question of AUG as the past tense. And what such goals could be about the Russian aircraft carrier group without basing? Even in the Mediterranean? Well, perhaps even that is doubtful in the hypothetical confrontation with the PRC in the Pacific Ocean. And you should not be guided by some naval battles of past wars and indistinct "battles" of BMZ. one should bear in mind new, promising developments, including those that fit into the strategic mosaic of hybrid wars.
    2. Bull Terrier
      Bull Terrier April 18 2019 07: 52
      +1
      Well, in something he is right. There has always been a mess with management. But USC is also not quite an option.
      1. timokhin-aa
        April 18 2019 08: 31
        +7
        In the normal version would be quite an option.
        1. Bull Terrier
          Bull Terrier April 18 2019 08: 43
          0
          The fact of the matter is that this is just a way out of the situation. No more. And you need a system.
        2. Vladimir 5
          Vladimir 5 April 18 2019 09: 58
          +1
          Timokhin A.A. Why are you asking for such an extensive ridge of command and control of the Russian Navy today, when today, and in the near future even more so, the entire fleet will comprise coastal defense ships, and which strategy is obvious and one ... NO ocean fleet, and it’s not being built, which means there is no need for such expanded management structures ... It is possible to have headquarters and other management with dozens of admirals — there will be headquarters and admirals without fleets ... Scraped into one ocean squadron in a dozen years, another, then the issue will become relevant ... Unit submarines - and several DEPL divisions, so the existing command will manage it ... Second, the development of the Navy is rapidly following the path of unmanned ships and submarines of new generations, here the main efforts are needed to develop the fleet, there are no headquarters, but research institutes with an executive base are needed, with the highest direct board. the first conversation about them ... The emphasis in the article is not there ...
          1. timokhin-aa
            April 18 2019 11: 16
            +2
            What is the reason why today you are asking for such a vast ridge of the management of the Russian Navy, when today, and especially in the near future, the entire fleet will be coastal defense ships, and what strategy is the obvious one ...


            This is a non-working scheme, it was very deeply "calculated" back in the Soviet Union, it will not work that way.
            1. venik
              venik April 18 2019 14: 22
              -1
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              What is the reason why today you are asking for such a vast ridge of the management of the Russian Navy, when today, and especially in the near future, the entire fleet will be coastal defense ships, and what strategy is the obvious one ...


              This is a non-working scheme, it was very deeply "calculated" back in the Soviet Union, it will not work that way.

              =======
              Oh?
              1. timokhin-aa
                April 18 2019 14: 27
                +7
                Yes. We need an outfit of forces in the DMZ, so that from there the BMZ ships do not raise in the "windows" between the flights of the base aviation.

                Yes, corny - as it was during Norpak-82 on the Kuriles - side wind over the runway and hello, all air defense in the DMZ cried, and the aircraft carrier just turns against the wind and raises aircraft.
                And she will rehearse all corvettes like kittens.
            2. venik
              venik April 18 2019 14: 23
              -5
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              This is a non-working scheme, it was very deeply "calculated" back in the Soviet Union, it will not work that way.

              =======
              Do you know, HOW??
              You have to be MODERATE, MODERATE !!! And people will "reach out" to you !!! laughing
              1. Fan-fan
                Fan-fan April 19 2019 05: 12
                0
                Well, Medvedev and the government also behave modestly, do not protrude much, therefore millionaires have long been at the trough for 20 years and everyone is "drawn" to them, even the supreme.
          2. LeonidL
            LeonidL April 18 2019 20: 31
            -4
            It's nonsense to manage all fleets centrally. Even an attempt at such "restructuring" for many years will make the Fleet generally helpless, and the tasks of the existing fleets of the Russian Federation are now far from strategic. The navy, whether it wants it or not, the sofa strategist, is part of the united command and cannot act in isolation from the tasks of the command of the district (front). Well, the attacks of the landing forces of the United States and Japan, with landings on the territory of the Russian Federation, are generally nonsense. Rather, the PRC, with a sharp deterioration in the internal political situation, either in China or in the Russian Federation. In any case, the Navy is an important component of the country's integrated defense system, and not an independent body.
        3. bk316
          bk316 April 18 2019 10: 36
          -2
          I am very far from the problems of the fleet, but it seems to me that everything is going to ensure that the fleet will be completely repaired by one task - coastal defense. No ocean connections, no raids and attacks on the approaching AUG. From this point of view, subordination to the land hunters is quite understandable.
          Alexander didn’t occur to you?
          1. timokhin-aa
            April 18 2019 11: 15
            +4
            This is a non-working scheme, theoretically studied very deeply and it DOES NOT WORK.
            1. bk316
              bk316 April 18 2019 11: 45
              -4
              DOES NOT WORK.

              Even taking into account nuclear weapons, missile weapons and satellite target designation?
              Maybe naval theorists are just numb and hold on to the old?
              You yourself have given an example of the rivalry between MLRS and naval artillery.
              Yes, hailstones lose in range, but the same polonaise wins by margin.
              1. timokhin-aa
                April 18 2019 12: 11
                +5
                I can give you an example of a situation when the modern fleet of BMZ was destroyed in a couple of hours. By themselves, forces in the BMZ are necessary, but without a forward move, in the DMZ avant-garde, their combat stability is not ensured.

                In addition, our main "caliber" at sea is SSBNs, they cannot be covered with corvettes alone during the deployment phase.
                1. bk316
                  bk316 April 18 2019 12: 18
                  -5
                  our main "caliber" at sea is SSBNs,

                  I don’t argue this, but I definitely can’t cover it up? What about submarines? And under the ice?
                  I can give you an example of a situation where the modern BMZ fleet was destroyed in a couple of hours.

                  You need to give an example when it was destroyed while it was under the cover of the Modern Coastal Defense with early warning radar, aviation, air defense, RTR, electronic warfare, coastal anti-ship missile systems, satellite reconnaissance, and it should also include low-noise submarines. And yes, he should obey not the orders of the Commander-in-Chief, but the commander of this very BO.
                  Is there such an example? I will study it with pleasure.
                  1. timokhin-aa
                    April 18 2019 13: 13
                    +6
                    Do not bring to the point of absurdity - the speed of attack of any carrier-based aircraft from the DMZ to our BMZ against ships in it exceeds any reasonable response time of our forces to this attack.
                    This was much thought at the time, if that.
                    1. bk316
                      bk316 April 18 2019 13: 40
                      -2
                      the attack speed of any carrier-based aircraft from the DMZ into our BMZ against ships in it exceeds any reasonable reaction time of our forces to this attack.

                      But nothing that BMZ ships should be under the umbrella of coastal air defense. And her reaction speed, if I remember correctly, is about a minute.

                      And here by the way the question arises about the concentration of AUG. Well, you understand that ALL literally all naval battles of the last 100 years were won primarily due to stealth, surprise, etc. From Tsushima to Pearl Harbor, from Tirpitz to Falklands. And the location of any AUG is known for accuracy better than 100 km at any given time. And to bring accuracy to 10 km will cost as one aircraft carrier cruiser. Therefore, it is much more efficient to develop a target designation system and missile weapons than to build ships of the first rank.
                      1. timokhin-aa
                        April 18 2019 13: 58
                        +7
                        And nothing that the ships BMZ should be under the umbrella of coastal defense.


                        This is a meaningless verbal construction, this umbrella. And he, too, will be attacked, even earlier than any ship in the BMZ. In general, the combat stability of the mosquito fleet is a well-known thing, google OPERATION "Pearl" at least.
                        It will be the same on a large scale, with satellites, etc.

                        Therefore, it is much more effective to develop a target designation system, and missile means of destruction than to build ships of the first rank.




                        Five of these ships in the picture - fighting. The number of targets with the same EPR - 21 (presumably the enemy maneuvers the rear vessels with corner reflectors fixed on them).

                        How to identify targets for attack? I note that the picture reflects the ideal conditions, in real life there will be more targets, and interference, and two hundred hundred missiles will arrive at the base during the first hour of the war, and so on.

                        I will note that the already commonplace problem of choosing which of the two identical ships to attack for RCC is not algorithmized, otherwise than through a random number generator, and it will give the chances of one ship not to receive a single rocket, if not great odds.
                      2. bk316
                        bk316 April 18 2019 16: 49
                        -3
                        presumably the adversary maneuvers with the vessels of the rear with corner reflectors fixed on them

                        Well, yes, yes, there are even more planes on the flyradar, according to your logic, this means that the f-22 and F-35 in the menacing period should be hung with corner reflectors wassat Probably the word signature you have never heard? But I generally wrote about something else. Didn't you notice the word "satellite"? It has long been considered that one heavy aircraft carrier stands as a satellite system, allowing all US AUG to be conducted both in radio and optical ranges. Suppression of the satellite constellation, and even with the ZGRLS - this is definitely a nuclear war. Forget about the surface fleet in a nuclear war, it will not interest anyone at all.

                        I will note that the already commonplace problem of choosing which of the two identical ships to attack for RCC is not algorithmized, otherwise than through a random number generator, and it will give the chances of one ship not to receive a single rocket, if not great odds.

                        Let’s you not write about something in which you don’t understand anything at all, to the person who has been doing this for 30 years - it is so painful to laugh so much. I’m not writing to you about the features of ship engines, although I studied the theory of the ship, but you didn’t know the theory of combat algorithms?

                        In general, we lit a holivar with you. Notice, I do not insist that the hunters are right, I only Express doubts about your innocence. And you did not dispel them ..... No.
                        But thanks a lot for the article and for the answers.
                      3. timokhin-aa
                        April 18 2019 21: 25
                        +2
                        Likely the word signature. You never heard?


                        Do not try to appear more than you are, please. Of course I heard that word. But who told you that you will be able to read any signature at a more or less considerable distance? You will only have a reflected signal. Radar decent people in our time rarely include, and the IR signature to catch with 1000 + km is possible only in the country of pink ponies.

                        The suppression of the satellite constellation, and even with the ZGRLS, is SINGLELY nuclear war.


                        YES? But in the Military Doctrine of the Russian Federation, something completely different is written, and the President says something completely different, and elementary logic suggests that you are to put it mildly wrong.
                        All of them would be so hot, life already on the planet would not be long ago.
                        I will modestly remind you that both here and in the US the SPRN at least once gave an erroneous signal about the mass launch of enemy ICBMs.
                        And nothing, no one pressed the red button.

                        Let's you will not write about what you do not understand anything at all, the person who is engaged in this 30 years


                        It seems like Zhores Alferov said that a real scientist can even put the most complex theory in simple words.
                        Well, tell me how to teach a rocket to choose one of two identical aircraft carriers, for example. Provided suppressed by the EW communication and the impossibility of information exchange between the missiles in the salvo. And so that this choice was TRUE from the point of view of who launched these missiles.
                      4. bk316
                        bk316 April 19 2019 11: 29
                        +3
                        Well, tell me how to teach a rocket to choose one of two identical aircraft carriers, for example.

                        You dear confusing, the author you, you and prove. If I am going to write an article about target selection algorithms for a massive attack, I will explain everything there.
                        And believe me there will not be amateurish statements somehow

                        But who told you that you can read any signature at a more or less significant distance? You will only have a reflected signal.
                        - the radar signature is based on the reflected signal, well, just the radars work this way, the IR signature is natural by the source, the optical signature is by the natural reflected. In general, the magic word signature in this means just a signature-identifier. Different algorithms are used to obtain signatures in different parts of the electromagnetic spectrum (and visible light and IR and radio waves are all electromagnetic radiation), but for 40-50 years they have not been limited only to amplitude analysis (according to your EPR), therefore the signatures of a cruiser and a tanker are different , yes, even two cruisers are different. belay

                        Nowadays, decent people rarely include radar,
                        - oh well, wow, do not want to walk around the INOPERATED antenna field "Volna" at the so beloved Pacific Fleet. Well, okay, I can invite you to "Don". If you have heard about combat and working mode, this is not about on-off. laughing

                        But in the Military Doctrine of the Russian Federation, something completely different is written,
                        - No, it says exactly that. The destruction of the satellite constellation will lead at least to the suppression of the early warning system, which obviously indicates the intention to deliver a preemptive nuclear strike (well, or a global conventional one), which directly comes under the "threat of the existence of the state."

                        Thanks again.
                      5. timokhin-aa
                        April 19 2019 16: 29
                        -3
                        You dear confusing, the author you, you and prove. If I am going to write an article about target selection algorithms for a massive attack, I will explain everything there.


                        Let's simplify. Two rockets and two ships in the warrant. SINGLE.

                        On what basis will the rocket choose the target? It’s not necessary to write articles.

                        Yes, even the two cruisers are different.

                        Have the same?

                        but years ago, 40-50 is not limited to amplitude analysis (according to your EPR), therefore, the cruiser and tanker signatures are different, and even the two cruisers are different.


                        And nevertheless, the Soviet Navy has repeatedly "lost" both individual American aircraft carriers and formations. How so?

                        - oh well, wow, do not want to walk around the INOPERATED antenna field "Volna" at the so beloved Pacific Fleet.


                        I meant the radar of the enemy ships, by the radiation of which they are easy to identify. You do target targeting for missiles, right?

                        - yes no, it is written there that will explain. Destroying the satellite constellation will result in at least the suppression of the EWS


                        And why the whole group? Only those used by naval intelligence. Believe me, we have counted each other’s satellites.
                2. PavelT
                  PavelT April 20 2019 00: 08
                  +2
                  But China is following this scheme: on the sly, civilian dual-use vessels with anti-ship missile containers are being commissioned.
                  This means that in this diagram from 1/4 to 1/3 of merchant ships (with the same RCS, approximately the same tonnage and type: container ships) will actually be military (a la "privateers") with a double crew (merchant and military). When they receive target designation from their UAVs and release their anti-ship missiles ... the picture will become even more complicated and much funnier!
        4. Vladimir 5
          Vladimir 5 April 18 2019 13: 24
          +4
          Timokhin A.A. Remark: I agree with your arguments about the need for a strong command structure. Only the realities today are completely different. - even frigates cannot build, so what’s the matter, - in fact, there remained projection under the current liberal government with all the consequences of such a government .....
          1. timokhin-aa
            April 18 2019 14: 00
            +3
            Well, why, two DDA12000 A star reducer can do every year easily, with a gun at the head of the owner - from four per year. And it allows you to get closer to the Chinese pace of BNK with a displacement of about tons to 3500.

            Everything can be done.
    3. venik
      venik April 18 2019 14: 26
      -2
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      This is a non-working scheme, theoretically studied very deeply and it DOES NOT WORK.

      =======
      Well, suggest YOUR version ..... Maybe she will "ride" ??
      1. timokhin-aa
        April 18 2019 21: 26
        0
        I do not have "my own", I am a supporter of the national naval science in this matter.
    4. LeonidL
      LeonidL April 18 2019 20: 33
      -3
      Well, since Mr. Admiral Timokhin said "does not work" - then it does not work! Report this decision to Sportloto immediately!
  • Town Hall
    Town Hall April 18 2019 13: 35
    +4
    The Novosibirsk Islands belong to the Northern Fleet USC. But to the territory belonging to the Eastern Military District of them 60



    In my opinion, at this point, being cunning a little. And what does the distance from the "earth" have to do with it? Maybe it is worth giving the distance from the bases of the fleets in this case ?. And the possibilities of these?
    On the nearby "land" there are no infrastructures that can somehow help. Only the fleet can do something. And the distances from the bases of the Northern Fleet and TF are approximately equal by eye. And the Northern Fleet has an order of magnitude more opportunities
    1. timokhin-aa
      April 18 2019 14: 00
      +2
      And what can the fleet do there?
      1. Town Hall
        Town Hall April 18 2019 14: 12
        +4
        In reality, nothing. In the foreseeable future, and not needed).
        Theoretically, to drop an airborne assault in order to repulse the adversary’s attack and cover it with fire. Or build a permanent base and supply it if necessary. And the Pacific Fleet is absolutely helpless in this sense, which you yourself have repeatedly convincingly written about. The same AL are all in the area of ​​responsibility of the SF.
        This is all hypothetically understandable. Like all the fuss with the Arctic militarily in principle. But once the money is allocated for this, it must be mastered. And purely theoretically attributing these islands to the responsibility of the SF is logical
        1. timokhin-aa
          April 18 2019 15: 25
          +1
          There will be a problem in aviation and submarines.
      2. venik
        venik April 18 2019 14: 28
        -4
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        And what can the fleet do there?

        ======
        And you - THINK! Maybe you guess? laughing
  • venik
    venik April 18 2019 08: 57
    -1
    Quote: Bull Terrier
    Well, in something he is right. There has always been a mess with management. But USC is also not quite an option.

    ======
    Why not? One of my acquaintances has a joke: "Can a marriage of convenience be happy? Maybe! ..... If the "calculation" was RIGHT!!! "
    USC - also MAY be a "way out" if its functions, tasks and responsibilities are CAREFULLY THOUGHTED and "linked" with the actions and functions of the command of the branches of the armed forces, other USC and General Staff in general ..... The point is not in the name - at least "a pot name "- if only it functioned EFFICIENTLY and COMPETENTLY !!!
    1. Bull Terrier
      Bull Terrier April 18 2019 09: 04
      -1
      We say the same thing) just differently. USC is just a temporary measure. At least in the form that I read in the article. But concrete changes are needed. I would even say conceptual.
      1. venik
        venik April 18 2019 09: 27
        +1
        Quote: Bull Terrier
        just differently. USC is just a temporary measure. At least in the form that I read in the article.

        =======
        USC - in principle, has the right to exist and MUST exist! The question is precisely that there should be a clear separation of the functions of the vertical of command and control of the Armed Forces (after all, in addition to the Fleet and the Ground Forces, there are also the Space Forces (as a component of the Aerospace Forces) and the Strategic Missile Forces) and the USC itself. There are also questions of interaction between them. Here there are more questions than answers! In short, a complete "misunderstanding" .....
      2. timokhin-aa
        April 18 2019 09: 56
        +6
        The fact is that the USC allows you to get out of the conceptual impasse - to conduct an offensive policy, the fleet must be controlled independently of other types of armed forces, when attacking a country - together with them, in close cooperation and sometimes in the form fixed by other types of armed forces.
        These are mutually exclusive requirements, and it is precisely properly organized (and not like ours) USCs are the solution to this contradiction.
        1. venik
          venik April 18 2019 14: 29
          -1
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          The fact is that USC allows breaking the conceptual impasse - to conduct an offensive policy, the fleet must be managed independently of other types of aircraft

          ======
          So what about you here WHAT they say?
          1. LeonidL
            LeonidL April 19 2019 02: 34
            -1
            To conduct offensive operations, the Fleet must at least have offensive capabilities, and not the minuscule that is in comparison with NATO fleets. Yes, and complete nonsense even the assumption of an active war at sea in the event of a war with NATO and war in general. THIS is an immediate nuclear transformation. And no one will agree to such a development of events. If a war at sea is possible, then only with the PRC, and then, under the condition of either the complete degradation of the Russian Federation, or the degradation of the internal political situation in the PRC, which requires "a small victorious war for the return of the primordial Chinese territories" to resolve internal conflicts. The Russian surface fleet cannot solve strategic tasks in the absence of a network of supply bases and naval base, without a full-fledged aircraft carrier cover. Therefore, the main goals are the protection of the coast, especially in the Arctic, the provision of the Pacific flank, domination in the Black Sea (but it is already provided by the Crimea and the already existing means of the Black Sea Fleet) and in the Caspian, the presence as a political force in the Mediterranean, the presence of naval groups of ships of the first rank for purely political flag demonstrations, a symbolic presence in the Baltic, in fact, limited to the Marquis puddle. It is for approximately such tasks and taking into account not very "fat" funding, and the Fleet should be built.
  • LeonidL
    LeonidL April 19 2019 20: 06
    -1
    You just see an acute desire from the mess of the ordinary and habitual to create just the chaos of a perestroika mess without clear goals. if you commanded at least something more than a platoon, company, crew boat, you will understand what I'm talking about. Universal perestroika will completely destroy all combat training and planning. Maybe this is the purpose of such stuffing?
  • Earthshaker
    Earthshaker April 18 2019 08: 25
    +1
    Evaluate an article by title, how cute. Either a stuffing, or a multi-book identity is not able to read, or both.
  • timokhin-aa
    April 18 2019 08: 31
    +1
    Essentially, you normally have nothing to say.
    1. Serg65
      Serg65 April 18 2019 11: 28
      0
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      Essentially, you normally have nothing to say.

      laughing Oh Alexander, do you naively think that you have to spend your time on each of your nonsense? Although ... Sasha, I can’t walk past your house without jokes wink
      in general, the fleet as a single organism is not.

      what About how !!!!
      Who does the Pacific Fleet obey? Commander of the Navy? Not. He submits to the commander of the Eastern Military District, Lieutenant General Gennady Valerievich Zhidko

      So the Pacific Fleet all his life submitted to the operational-tactical plan of the Far Eastern Military District! So what? Ahhh, got it! Have you discovered America?
      Historical experience suggests

      Oh Sash, if you hadn’t climbed into history !!!!
      Let us turn once more to the above-mentioned book edited by ex-Commander Kuroyedov:

      laughing More recently, I remember, you spoke out for the incompetence of Admiral Korolyov? Then why bring a quote edited by the "destroyer of the fleet" Kuroedov? And if you quote this nonsense, then either you are not aware of the defense of Moonsund, or you are deliberately distorting the facts!
      Land officers simply no one ever taught to command the fleets and conduct naval operations

      Well, as far as I know, they teach in academies and even with practical departures in the fleet.
      The experience of the Great Patriotic War tells us that if the fleet had a more competent leadership, it could achieve more for the country.

      what For example? Would you break the Kriegsmarine to pieces?
      And at sea, making one wrong decision, or the right, but the belated, you can lose everything. You can instantly lose the war entirely. And then there will be no chance to fix something.

      Here you are absolutely right!
      Can a tanker plan a submarine raid near an array of low-frequency hydrophones somewhere in the Gulf of Alaska?

      laughing good What interesting fantasy you have! As they say ... suffered! Although your fans are really excited about it !!!!
      The second blow was initiated by A.E. Serdyukov moving the General Staff of the Navy to St. Petersburg.

      I don’t understand this either !!!
      what Well, in principle, and essentially all! The rest is all from the evil one!
      1. timokhin-aa
        April 18 2019 12: 22
        +5
        So the Pacific Fleet all his life submitted to the operational-tactical plan of the Far Eastern Military District! So what? Ahhh, got it! Have you discovered America?


        Well hello. Let's get more from this place. What is there that the commander of the Far Eastern Military District could order the commander of the Pacific Fleet? Now can order anything, if that. That interaction has always been contemplated is another matter.

        Well, as far as I know, they teach in academies and even with practical departures in the fleet.


        Show ships tankers, yeah. I had just recently had a dialogue with one such candidate for the Academy in green form, and this comrade did not answer the simplest question. A comrade blurted out that, he says, his fleet in the BMZ will increase the tension of the enemy’s forces, and this will help him in the land operation.
        I just asked, "How will the tension increase?" And he fell over. You just like from the world of pink ponies fell out here. laughing

        For example? Would you break the Kriegsmarine to pieces?


        For example, would not let the Germans leave Crimea. For example, would bring Tallinn without loss. For example, I would have done without landing on the Baltic landings in the first half of the war. For example, would not allow German ships to fire from the sea in parts of the Red Army.
        Few?

        What interesting fantasy you have! As they say ... suffered! Although your fans are really excited about it !!!!


        You do not know what our PLA sometimes do? About K-492 and captain 1-rank Dudko (now retired rear admiral) never heard of?

        By the way, how do you like the video from Bechevinsky Bay? Like your "profile"
        1. Serg65
          Serg65 April 18 2019 13: 34
          +1
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          Well hello.

          hi Have a nice one you too!
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          What could the commander of the Far Eastern Military District order to the commander of the Pacific Fleet?

          laughing Shoot the moon !!! You are so persistently positioning yourself a connoisseur of the Navy, and ask questions stupid questions? Who will plan the coastal defense, who is planning a landing operation? Com fleet? Who regulates logistical support? At the same time, the commander of the VO does not go into the strategic planning of the fleet, and the operational and tactical use of the fleet in the coastal zone is directly linked to the forces of the district! Always a new komflot was first of all presented to the commander of VO!
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          Ships are shown to tankers.

          bully Not only tank crews, but also pilots, and the sailors, in turn, did practical work in the ground forces.
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          would not let the Germans leave Crimea

          what What forces? And what in this case prevented you from the generals?
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          would take out Tallinn without loss

          Yeah, no, well, of course I suspected, but not so much .... Alexander, well, do not go into history !!!
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          For example, I would have done without the landings killed in the Baltic in the first half of the war.

          Lord, it wouldn’t cost !!!! The mass of ships and people in Kronstadt and Stalin would allow them to be indifferent witnesses of the Leningrad tragedy?
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          would not let German ships fire from the sea in parts of the Red Army.

          Until the 44 year, I know the only case of shelling of Red Army units, and then our fleet from that place was beyond 1000 km! And a couple of times in 1944, and also our fleet could not prevent this!
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          Have you ever heard of K-492 and the captain of 1 rank Dudko (now Rear Admiral retired)?

          What specifically interests you? Avacha Bay or the west coast of the United States? Above, I already told you what the role of the commander of VO is!
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          By the way, how do you like the video from Bechevinsky Bay?

          Ordinary window dressing and nothing! Ahh, all the same, what about ..... a good occasion for conversations of bazaar grandmothers!
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          Like your "profile"

          To be rude if you please? Do not!
          1. timokhin-aa
            April 18 2019 14: 13
            +1
            Shoot the moon !!! You are so aggressively positioning yourself as a naval expert, and asking questions about stupid questions? Who will plan the defense of the coast, who is planning a landing operation? Com fleet?


            This is a district or front, the question is that neither in peacetime, nor in the military, on the same Far East the tasks of the Navy are as close as this.

            At the same time, the VO Commander does not climb into the strategic fleet planning, and the operational and tactical use of the fleet in the coastal zone is directly linked to the forces of the district!


            I highlighted the keywords, notice yours. Now a similar order of things can be preserved only if there is goodwill on the part of the district commander, but if you want now even the number of filing cabinets somewhere in Vilyuchinsk, the district headquarters can be tied to anything, and yes, the Moon can be ordered to shoot, but in 80, I doubt it very much.

            In addition, the tasks of the fleet, even now, are not reducible to the coastal zone.

            Not only tank crews, but also pilots, and the sailors, in turn, did practical work in the ground forces.

            Before that they could command a tank corps, yes laughing

            What forces? And what in this case prevented you from the generals?


            At least by naval aviation, it was enough to ensure that it had enough fuel, bombs and torpedoes. Well, in theory, the Black Sea Fleet were submarines.

            What exactly are you interested in? Avachinsky Bay or US West Coast?


            Alaskan Bay, the task of tracking the SSBN, and at the appointed time - their destruction. And where does the county?

            Ordinary window dressing and nothing!


            As the American military wisdom says in battle, the troops can only do what they did during the exercises.

            To be rude if you please? Do not!


            You are not in the compound landing craft did it? And here rudeness?
            1. Serg65
              Serg65 April 18 2019 14: 48
              0
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              I highlighted the keywords

              Alesander, we are now pouring from empty to empty!
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              a similar order of things can be preserved only if there is goodwill on the part of the district commander, but now even the number of filing cabinets somewhere in Vilyuchinsk, the district headquarters can link with anything

              These are only your assumptions and nothing more, the interaction mechanism has been worked out for dozens of years and it will not change!
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              Maritime aviation

              Naval aviation in those days was run errands of the fleet, and the network of airfields was removed from Sevastopol.
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              Well, in theory, the Black Sea Fleet had submarines.

              The Black Sea submariners, to put it mildly, were not up to the mark throughout the war, and they did what they could.
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              Alaskan Bay, the task of tracking the SSBN, and at the appointed time - their destruction. And where does the county?

              what You somehow missed my words about the strategic plans of the fleet ..... nothing to do with the district, here the General Staff of the RF Armed Forces through the General Staff of the Navy.
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              As the American military wisdom says in battle, the troops can only do what they did during the exercises.

              laughing This is purely American wisdom, it does not concern ours, because ours are cunning to our inventions and the Americans do not understand this.
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              Are you not in the formation of amphibious assault ships?

              Not! I am an anti-submarine, but I often participated in the landing as part of a cover detachment, or an artillery support detachment, and as part of the dismissal to the reserve and as part of the technical support detachment.
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              And then rudeness?

              Sorry, misunderstood!
              1. timokhin-aa
                April 18 2019 14: 57
                0
                These are only your assumptions and nothing more, the interaction mechanism has been worked out for dozens of years and it will not change!


                Damn, Sergey - HE HAS CHANGED! This is the problem! Even "as before" is much better than "as now".

                Naval aviation in those days was run errands of the fleet, and the network of airfields was removed from Sevastopol.


                A fleet - on a leash at the front and just the period of evacuation from the Crimea fell on the period of the reorganization of the MA supply system, which until then had been a common Red Army air force, and then the Navy received the task to create its own. It was at this time that the flyers sat for two or three days without gasoline, while the Germans dragged.

                You somehow missed my words about the strategic plans of the fleet ..... nothing to do with the district, here the General Staff of the RF Armed Forces through the General Staff of the Navy.


                See how you are behind the times. Now even these issues are being resolved through the General Staff. And there, as the card lays down, the Main Command is generally removed from the issues of combat control, which is what the General Staff of the Navy is doing, I will not guess, but it does not even have its own means of communication with the fleets, separate from the "Green" General Staff. And you also make fun of ...

                This is purely American wisdom, it does not concern ours, because ours are cunning to our inventions and the Americans do not understand this.


                Yes, everyone is trying to jump higher than his head, it is not a secret once, the question is whether it will work out.
                1. Serg65
                  Serg65 April 18 2019 15: 56
                  -1
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  Damn, Sergey - IT CHANGED!

                  Well .... then specifically with the facts, orders, actions! I ask Alexander!
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  which before that was the general air force of the Red Army, and then the Navy received the task of creating its

                  Oh, I don’t even have words ..... Alexander have a conscience !!!!
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  You are behind the times. Now even these issues are resolved through GS

                  Quote: Serg65
                  here the General Staff of the RF Armed Forces through the General Staff of the Navy.

                  So these questions are ALWAYS solved through the General Staff!
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  The commander-in-chief was completely removed from combat control issues

                  Again, facts, documents, circulars in the student!
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  he does not even have his own means of communication with the fleets, separate from the "Green" General Staff

                  All the news about the General Staff of the Navy is dated 12-13 for years and I can’t answer it now.
                  1. timokhin-aa
                    April 18 2019 18: 21
                    +1
                    Well .... then specifically with the facts, orders, actions! I ask Alexander!


                    Of all these orders, the secret is not secret only Medvedev's decree (he was then president) on the military-administrative division.

                    And so - the reform of Makarov, materials in the network is complete, but not orders with numbers)))

                    Although the easiest way is to call someone who is serving now, find out what changes have been taking place since 2010, and whether it is good or bad.

                    Well, I think the story about TsKP Navy, and so you know.

                    So these questions are ALWAYS solved through the General Staff!


                    Here are just the participation of the General Staff of the Navy in the process now has a slightly different scale than before.
        2. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA April 18 2019 14: 39
          +3
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          For example, I would not let the Germans leave Crimea.

          How? The ban on the exit of large ships of the Black Sea Fleet was given by the Headquarters on the basis of naval operations in which the fleet lost three ships from enemy air strikes, moreover, in the radius of operations of naval fighter aircraft, right up to the Yaks. Here the problem is not the subordination of the Black Sea Fleet, but the weakness of its own naval command.
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          For example, Tallinn would have taken out without loss.

          How so?
          The southern fairway is not to be offered - a transport caravan for Wehrmacht field guns crawling behind trawls at a speed of 5-8 knots is the simplest target. Yes, and there are also enough mines.
          The only option is to carry out the evacuation before the loss of airfields on the Kurgalsky Peninsula.
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          For example, I would have done without the landings killed in the Baltic in the first half of the war.

          You know, when the army orders the fleet to land, and the fleet conducts it on on and off - This is not a subordination of the fleet. The Peterhof landings were held in the direct line of sight of Kronstadt - but the fleet could not organize either communications or artillery support.
          By the way, the failed landing on Somers was conceived, planned and implemented just by the fleet.
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          For example, he would not let German ships fire from the sea in parts of the Red Army.

          It was the command of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet that planned the "boar hunt" in Irbiny. That you subordinate the fleet to the army, that you do not subordinate - the bungling of the naval will not change.
          1. timokhin-aa
            April 18 2019 15: 00
            0
            The question is that if for at least a year from 35, we would be engaged in combat training and not devils than, then there would be much less such accidents and incidents.

            How? The ban on the exit of large ships of the Black Sea Fleet was given by Stavka following the results of the naval operation,


            The ban on flights of naval aviation was also?
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA April 18 2019 17: 42
              +1
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              The ban on flights of naval aviation was also?

              And the Navy’s aviation at that time was supplied by the Navy itself. And the army will not be able to blame the problems of the rear of the Navy. Moreover, the EMNIP, the independent supply of the Navy Air Force was the initiative of the Navy Commissar. smile
              What, did someone stop the multi-star admirals from guessing that the aircraft moving behind the advancing troops required mobile logistics and supplies? Ordinary air forces were able to set up the rear at the very least, but the Navy did not (in the Baltic region, the mtap, which had been relocated to the Baltic states, had been waiting for the delivery of ammunition for almost a month - the torpedo bombers flew out with the last pair of torpedoes for the last week).
              1. timokhin-aa
                April 18 2019 19: 01
                -1
                As far as I remember, this was a period of reorganization of the rear of the IA Navy, from which all these problems arose.
    2. venik
      venik April 18 2019 14: 46
      +1
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      Essentially, you normally have nothing to say.

      =======
      As they say in Odessa: "Oh my God!" ....
      You there "crucified" that during the Second World War, the fleets were "subordinate" to the "land"? No?
      So: to the beginning of the Second World War, Ocean Fleet The Soviet Navy made only "first steps" !!! Look what the USSR Navy represented by the beginning of the Second World War! WHAT was the USSR Navy?
      3 (three!) "Ancient" battleships .... 2 (no less than "ancient" light cruisers (like "Svetlana"), 5 new light cruisers (like "Kirov" and "Maxim Gorky"), and .... Subs of type "K" and "C" .... "Pike", "Malyutki", torpedo boats, "patrol boats" and minesweepers - "I do not take into account" !!!
      In fact - "mosquito fleet" !!!
      What was the "far sea" and "ocean" zone? Yes, in general, NOTHING !!!
      QUESTION: WHOM to subordinate all this "economy"?
      The answer is UNIQUE!
      Want to object??
      "Welcome"!
      WITH RESPECT! "venik"!
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA April 18 2019 17: 55
        +1
        Quote: venik
        2 (at least "ancient" light cruisers (of the Svetlana type), 5 new light cruisers (of the Kirov and Maxim Gorky types),

        I'll get some fun: two old "Svetlans", one four-turret KR-mutant with four 180-mm guns, two KR pr. 26 and two KR pr. 26 bis. smile
    3. venik
      venik April 18 2019 15: 44
      0
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      Essentially, you normally have nothing to say.

      ========
      Well, of course, THERE IS WHAT !!!
      Objection "on the facts" ???
  • LeonidL
    LeonidL April 18 2019 20: 20
    -3
    Well said! Well, it's just ridiculous to read the linguistic exercises of a person who does not have a naval education, who has not served in the Fleets. But the goal of all the latest articles "for the Fleet" is very, very dubious.
  • knn54
    knn54 April 18 2019 08: 04
    +6
    As usual, “REFORMERS”, REMOVING AN EFFECTIVE SOVIET MANAGEMENT SYSTEM ATTEMPTED TO BLIND NEW ON THE YANKES, WITH THIS “SIMPLY SIMPLIFIED”.
    At the head of the Navy ONLY ADMINISTRATIVE FUNCTIONS-THE MANAGEMENT OF THE NAVY IS IN THE HANDS OF THE USC, UNLIKE THE COMMANDS BY THE US NAVY FORCES.
    That is, TODAY naval officers do not take the slightest part in the command of the fleet ...
  • victor50
    victor50 April 18 2019 08: 27
    +6
    Thank you, Alexander! And good luck! Maybe they will not only start building ships, but they will also think about managing the aircraft!
    1. venik
      venik April 18 2019 09: 33
      0
      Quote: victor50
      Maybe they will not only start building ships, but they will also think about managing the aircraft!

      =========
      drinks Actually it was necessary to start with this !!! An old Arabic proverb says: "A flock of rams led a lioncapable of beating a flock of lions led by ram!"
  • The Siberian barber
    The Siberian barber April 18 2019 09: 11
    +4
    It seems that yesterday the positive news on KSF passed ...
    Nothing teaches us: we create difficulties for ourselves, then we overcome them stoically ...
  • Leha667
    Leha667 April 18 2019 09: 31
    +6
    I completely agree with the author. After subordination of the Pacific Fleet to the district, inspections, inspections, and other various directives and telegrams increased significantly. There is no sense from them, but the personnel are tortured (. This is the view of a small screw, even without analysis of changes in the combat control system.
    1. timokhin-aa
      April 18 2019 09: 57
      0
      They say when Shoigu appeared even standards for the color of folders for documents. I did not check it myself, but even the rumor is indicative.
      1. venik
        venik April 18 2019 15: 03
        -2
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        They say when Shoigu appeared even standards for the color of folders for documents. I did not check it myself, but even the rumor is indicative.

        ======
        Amazing! Those. "I myself - I do not knowbut SPEAK !!!
        Did you actually serve in the USSR Armed Forces? Some forum members claim that you are almost a "caperrang" ???
        Is it so???
        1. LeonidL
          LeonidL April 24 2019 02: 49
          0
          Most likely a graduate of a civilian university with a naval department, this is in the worst case, where something and somehow picked up. Jacket, in a word. However, look in the old archives - with the same extraordinary ease and youthful fervor he burst into the discussion of topics related to the Aerospace Forces, for example, about light single-engine fighters. As a rule, well-read book boys who think of themselves as strategists, who have never known real service in their lives, have never given command to anyone, are so ardent. After all, a service person, as a rule, knows perfectly his warhead, command, type of boat or warship, well, even the main VUS. That is, if you finished Mozhaika and get involved in the operational management of the fleet, it's strange to say the least. If the Komsomol submarine and rose to the rank of "grandfather", then they are not very versed in the warhead-2, etc. But for an amateur, these are all seeds. The dilettante is initially a strategist better than Zhukov, a wise politician worse than Stalin and an admiral to whom Gorshkov is no match. But, if we draw a historical parallel, then such stuffing may have a more hidden purpose - to shake public opinion, to cause an open discussion. You look, something somewhere will slip past the previously unknown, and the breakdown of the control system is generally a gift for friends and partners, such an "event" paralyzes for a long time even that familiar rhythm with the usual mess that has always been, has always been and will always be in all fleets of the world. Perfect control is possible only in the crazy dreams of amateurs.
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA April 18 2019 18: 01
        0
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        They say when Shoigu appeared even standards for the colors of folders for documents.

        Actually - the right thing. Because the performer does not need to think - in which folder to draw up documents for the next inspector (because "like the last time" will not work), and the inspector disappears one of the reasons to return the documents due to incorrect registration.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine April 18 2019 18: 12
          +3
          Quote: Alexey RA
          and the inspector disappears one of the reasons for returning the documents due to improper execution.

          Expel a reviewer who is tucking into the color of the folder? No? Counterrevolution?
        2. LeonidL
          LeonidL April 24 2019 02: 50
          0
          Folders? There are long and durable computers!
  • Andrey VOV
    Andrey VOV April 18 2019 09: 37
    +1
    The author, how was the administration of the USSR arranged?
    1. timokhin-aa
      April 18 2019 09: 58
      -1
      Controversial and sometimes illogical.
      1. Andrey VOV
        Andrey VOV April 18 2019 10: 02
        +4
        But more or less effective? Or still .. if you still compare with what is now?
        1. timokhin-aa
          April 18 2019 11: 17
          -1
          That fleet more efficient.
          1. venik
            venik April 18 2019 15: 10
            0
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            That fleet more efficient.

            =======
            WHY FLEET is "more efficient" ??? Evidence - IN THE STUDIO !!!
  • Brigadier
    Brigadier April 18 2019 09: 47
    +3
    There was the Soviet Union - there were specialists.
    The Soviet Union is gone - there are no specialists.

    And "effective managers" can only effectively manage and nothing else. To produce is not their profile!

    The capitalists came - like Putin, Chubais, Kudrin, Nabiulina and others, leading the country to death ... and it all ended, because to destroy - not to build ...
    Their main slogan today is "there is no money, but you hold on" ... if, of course, you live ...
    They offer us to live on pasta for a beggarly salary, although they themselves do not consider money, unlike ordinary people who do not know how to make ends meet!

    STALIN IS NOT ON THEM !!!

    1. timokhin-aa
      April 18 2019 09: 58
      +4
      All countries with powerful fleets are capitalist. And they got powerful fleets when socialism was still a bare theory, without practice.
      1. Per se.
        Per se. April 18 2019 12: 55
        +6
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        All countries with powerful fleets are capitalist.

        Alexander, what was the fleet of tsarist Russia, and what did it become for the Soviet Union, what is it becoming now, for the new capitalist Russia? However, it is not even a matter of social order, but of priorities. The fleet does not fall out of space, it is a product of the social system as a whole. You compared the training of an infantryman and a torpedo operator, but if education and health care in the country fall, the infantrymen will be stupid and frail, although, "infantryman" is, after all, not only a guy with a gun, it is also a mass of specialists whose training requirements are not at all not weaker than torpedo and acoustics.

        There was a theory from Douai, according to which the war could be won by one aircraft. The theory was criticized, although according to the events during the aggression in Iraq and Yugoslavia, the Yankees practically achieved their goal by the attacks of cruise missiles and bombardments. Nevertheless, even according to Douai, a future war should not break up into a single war on land, a war at sea or in the air. The army, air force and navy, although they can act independently, should be coherent and interact with each other. You say that
        The last example of a large war, before which there was a mass of mistakes in fleet management and the organization of its combat training, and in the course of which the fleets submitted to the ground commander, was the Great Patriotic War. We know the results today.
        Results, did we lose to the Germans and the Japanese by 1945?
        Today’s problem is different, submission is not an end in itself, if according to Krylov, that you are not friends as friends, and you aren’t fit for musicians ...
        Now Russia, of the two allies, has become more important not the army and the fleet, but oil and gas, and while the oligarchs are in power, it is unlikely that anything will be more important than the minute-minute dough. This is the main reason why the power of the Soviet army and navy is increasingly turning into the power of the Russian army, as well as squeezing the last juices from the Soviet safety factor in science and technology.
        I really hope that everything will change for the better before this Soviet reserve runs dry.
      2. venik
        venik April 18 2019 15: 18
        +2
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        All countries with powerful fleets are capitalist. And they got powerful fleets when socialism was still a bare theory, without practice.

        =====
        Yah??? Straight so right away?
        By the way, WHO has "got powerful fleets" here ??? Britannia? USA? Well, who else?
        Well? Britain - I see, ISLAND!
        USA? So from their "land" opponents - only Mexico and Canada! (Well, just "super-opponents" !!!) ...
        Well, maybe France too? Well, or Spain? .....
        ........ Well, in general, a complete "....." ... Well, you know! lol
        1. LeonidL
          LeonidL April 24 2019 02: 53
          0
          The logic is impeccable! According to her, having become a capitalist country, and now she is just like that, Russia will immediately acquire the best fleet in the world. And why are the fleets of Britain, France and Germany with all their capitalism now far from in the best shape?
    2. g1v2
      g1v2 April 18 2019 12: 46
      +3
      Did Ushakov and Nakhimov live under socialism? Did Stalin build a fleet for them? Are Chesma, Sinop, Gangut also a merit of the Soviet leadership? And did it create the largest country in the world out of thin air, or did the "bloody tsarist regime" leave it to them? And the shipyards were also built from scratch, or were the main ones built under the tsars?wink
      As for the fleet, recently the first video on the formation of the Soviet fleet was released on the "Archival Revolution". I advise you to read. Much in common with today.
      Yes, and end with slogans and posters to throw. Well, it looks silly. Well, it seems not at the rally.
      1. Per se.
        Per se. April 18 2019 14: 04
        +1
        Quote: g1v2
        Yes, and end with slogans and posters to throw. Well, it looks silly. Well, it seems not at the rally.
        And here are the slogans? This, Vitaly, is a sad conclusion, and the slogans of Ushakov and Nakhimov, Chesme, Sinop and Gangut will be quite appropriate for slogans. Our fleet became the second most powerful in the world only as a Soviet, and only in the Soviet Union did Russia become a nuclear and space superpower. No tsarism would have achieved this, that’s the whole story. From what left, to that and we return, unfortunately. You will prove the opposite, so it is not necessary, as the ships began to build, what happens to the fleet, the comparison is not in favor of the time of the bad guys and their bourgeoisie, in 28 years.
        1. g1v2
          g1v2 April 18 2019 17: 38
          +1
          The Soviet period is just a brief moment in the thousand-year history of the country. It did not last even one generation. I didn’t even live a century, unlike RI or the Russian kingdom. It had a lot of good and a lot of bad. But most importantly, it turned out to be unviable. And died. It is clear that we all come from there, but constantly looking back is the most stupid thing that can be. This period has passed and a new one has begun - that's what it is worth thinking about. I am sure that this period will also not be the last. And the political and economic system will change more than once. To think that socialism is the end of the road is an analogue of the statement that liberal capitalism is the end of history and the crown of creation. We are only at the beginning of the next stage of the path and it is already clear that the path will be long and great. There are still dozens of wars, victories and defeats, hundreds of great discoveries and technological achievements, large-scale construction projects and projects. What is smart about living nostalgia?
  • Brigadier
    Brigadier April 18 2019 10: 05
    -1
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    All countries with powerful fleets are capitalist. And they got powerful fleets when socialism was still a bare theory, without practice.


    Naive Chukchi children ... Correctly said - was a bare theory. Theory !!!

    But when the USSR appeared and got stronger and this theory passed into practice, then all these "powerful fleets" shuddered, although by that time socialism was only 20-30 years, and the fleets cap. countries - 200-300 yearsEtc.

    Catch the difference? laughing lol tongue
    1. timokhin-aa
      April 18 2019 11: 18
      +1
      Yes, they trembled, but at sea the USSR could hardly oppose the West. In fact, if we exclude the preventive strike scenario from the position of tracking with nuclear weapons, then the task of defeating the US Navy for the Soviet Navy was impossible.
      1. meandr51
        meandr51 April 18 2019 11: 36
        +4
        This is not enough. This is defeating. The United States, in fact, itself always wanted to do this. But still not solved.
        1. timokhin-aa
          April 18 2019 12: 24
          0
          This is not enough, yes, but outside of this incredible scenario there were no chances to resist the USA at sea.
      2. venik
        venik April 18 2019 15: 21
        0
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Yes, they flinched, but on the sea of ​​the USSR there was little that could oppose the West.

        =======
        Yes, right? So straight and "COULD NOT" ??? laughing
  • midshipman
    midshipman April 18 2019 10: 46
    +5
    Well, I put everything on the shelves. Thank. Where are we going, even scary to think.
    1. timokhin-aa
      April 18 2019 11: 19
      0
      Please.

      From the bottom, you can sometimes push off
      1. venik
        venik April 18 2019 15: 22
        -1
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        From the bottom, you can sometimes push off

        ======
        Well, if you are at the bottom and sank ...... Then YES! Can!
        1. Fan-fan
          Fan-fan April 19 2019 06: 00
          -1
          You’re wrong, Broom. And you and we all successfully sink to the bottom. Only from the TV rushing bravura flies about how successful and smart we are.
  • smpetrov
    smpetrov April 18 2019 12: 00
    -1
    It is not clear why such articles are in the open press ?! Inform the enemy?
    1. timokhin-aa
      April 18 2019 12: 24
      +2
      The enemy knows everything and so.
  • g1v2
    g1v2 April 18 2019 12: 01
    0
    In theory, each district is responsible for its own direction and has its own "clients". Accordingly, its commander must prepare in advance for confrontation with specific opponents and determine what forces and means are needed for this. That is, if there is a war against NATO in Europe, then against Poland, the Baltic states, and so on, the western military establishment is leading, which prepares forces and means for this in advance, drawing up plans for the military from Norway to Ukraine. Caucasian theater of operations - Southern Military District, Ukraine their common headache with the Western Military District. Against her will be dey
    1. g1v2
      g1v2 April 18 2019 12: 27
      +1
      Interesting . The comment ended in the middle. In general, the meaning of the sheet was - each theater has its own specifics and its opponents, and its commander should have a full set of forces and means for the database on it. The idea of ​​breaking up a single Arctic theater of operations into pieces decisively eludes me. Except for the Northern Federal District, no one will be able to quickly move on it and build a unified logistics. How can the commander of the BBO protect the coastal and island territories from Vladik to Chukotka without Pacific Fleet? The fleet and the army are not separate toys, but tools for solving specific problems. Well, if a senior officer cannot hold back his grievances and ambitions for the good of the cause, then he is definitely not needed in the army. hi
      1. timokhin-aa
        April 18 2019 13: 12
        +2
        The meaning of splitting a single Arctic theater into pieces decisively eludes me.


        On the map of military districts in the article, look again, if so.

        How can the commander of the military air defense to protect the coastal and island territories from Vladik to Chukotka without the Pacific Fleet?


        To protect FROM WHAT? From whom it is clear, but from WHAT?
        1. g1v2
          g1v2 April 18 2019 17: 43
          +1
          From Japanese or American landing for example. From strikes by the Kyrgyz Republic and aircraft on coastal facilities. Kwantung army forgotten? Again, the Kuril Islands and Sakhalin need to be defended.
          1. timokhin-aa
            April 18 2019 18: 44
            +3
            Well, here comes the following.
            Amersky landing on Kamchatka and to the north is a naval landing, in order to prevent its landing, the BMZ must be held by surface ships, submarines, and aviation.
            But the Kuriles - can be suddenly captured from the territory of Japan and no fleet here will stop anyone.
            Accordingly, these two tasks (in words similar) require very different forces and, accordingly, a combat control system. Therefore, they must be adaptive and the idea of ​​the USC as a headquarters through which it is possible to command an interspecific group, created "for the task" here "in line".
            1. g1v2
              g1v2 April 19 2019 00: 23
              -2
              Amer landing in Kamchatka can be combined with the Japanese in the Kuril Islands or Sakhalin and the transfer of American and Canadian troops to Chukotka, for example. And to divert attention from the transfer of troops from Japan, for example, they will fire at Vladivostok. request Let me remind you that the landing in Normandy was conducted at several sites and in parallel with the distracting operations of the fleets. But the main task was to seize the bridgehead for the transfer of troops. Not marines, but full-fledged land units that will deliver transports. That is, from Vladivostok to Chukotka - this is a single theater of operations. AND OPPONENTS ONE AND THE SAME BUT WHICH CAN USE DIFFERENT FORCES AND MEANS. request The opponents here are the USA, their allies (Australia, Canada and New Zealand) and satellites such as Japan and South Korea.
              Well, about the capture of the Kuril Islands by Japan. About 10 years ago it would be simple. Then the 18th PULAD was just a suicide division, whose task was to gain as much time as possible with his death for the command. For example, in order to be able to carry out the evacuation of kindergartens and schools in Vladivostok and deploy all air defense systems. Now the division has strengthened significantly, plus Balls and Bastions are located on the islands. Plus, for the defense of the Kuril Islands, two corvettes 20380 have already been received. I hope they will take another 20385 before the end of the year and next year he will go to the Pacific Fleet. There are all chances that the division will grow into stones and hold out until the marines and most likely paratroopers from Ulan-Ude. Japs have a good fleet but the army does not yet shine. And with the coordination of all BBO forces, there is every chance to repel the landing and transfer the battle to their territory. And this is not about the Marines alone, but about the forces and means of the entire district. Includes a single command here again in the subject in my opinion.
              1. timokhin-aa
                April 19 2019 16: 31
                -4
                Amersky troops on Kamchatka can be together with the Japanese on the Kuriles or Sakhalin and the transfer of American and Canadian troops to Chukotka, for example.


                It may not be. And maybe there will be no landing, but they will sink transport on the NSR or in general without special victims to steal them.

                I am writing about this - we need a flexible ADAPTIVE structure, and not a hulking monster as it is now.
            2. LeonidL
              LeonidL April 24 2019 02: 59
              0
              Mr. Admiral Timokhin, are you, darling, raving? What is the American landing on the Kuril Islands? what is the Japanese landing? What century do you live in? Why landing? What will the landing do? What strategic task to solve in a war, the account in which will go for minutes and hours? Why should Americans make complete idiots and intimidate the unfortunate readers of your highly intelligent opus?
              1. LeonidL
                LeonidL April 24 2019 05: 04
                0
                I want to add a personal opinion. American landing, Japanese landing - this is from the area of ​​"impudent and very unlikely." Between the Russian Federation and the United States, it is not surprising at first glance, but there are no global contradictions in the military, political, economic, ideological, or territorial fields. On the contrary, there is parity in the strategic nuclear forces, which play the role of a strategic deterrent weapon. Unlike politicians, the military understands very well where the thin red line lies, and as long as the parity of mutual assured destruction exists, this line will not be crossed. Everything that happens around Crimea, Donbass, Syria: Venezuela is a minor and non-principled issue, which, however, allows both sides to keep the military in good shape, which ensures problem-free and sufficient funding. No more. now consider what we have replacing the United States with the PRC. Here for the United States there are very painful geopolitical challenges - claims to world domination, economic - the PRC is the holder of trillions of debts, the PRC dominates the US domestic market, the PRC creeps into US-controlled territories in Africa, Asia and Latin America. China - potentially threatens the allies of the United States, expanding its territory of water and occupying disputed islands, building artificial armed islands in places of oil and gas deposits. a very painful point - Taiwan. Ideologically, the communist PRC is an enemy of the capitalist USA, and it can jump out at any "suitable" moment, etc. In the case of the RF and the PRC, those who consider the issue of the PRC's territorial claims to the RF closed, they have not gone anywhere and can again jump out on the table either in the event of a sharp weakening of the Russian Federation, or in the event of a sharp exacerbation of the internal political situation in the PRC. Therefore, we are more likely to predict and likely a Chinese landing to capture or localize TF bases. But at the same time, this will only be a distracting cover operation - the main blow will be delivered to the soft and poorly protected southern bosom of Russia. It is possible that by preventing such a development of events, the Government of the Russian Federation revived the BAM, now Putin, quite reasonably plans the construction of communications parallel to the Transsib and BAM along the Northern Sea Route.
  • Dzungar
    Dzungar April 18 2019 14: 18
    +6
    Why all the screaming ..? The commander of the Eastern District sets a task for the commander of the Pacific Fleet, and he himself, as a sailor, decides what and how to do ... Isn't that so ..? After all, everything is done "on command", the commander of the district will not give an order directly to any ship .... And he is not limited by the knowledge of command of the combined arms corps and the army. At the Academy of the General Staff, they teach the appropriate scale and the corresponding features of commanding strategic formations where both land formations and the navy are present ... By the way, the idea of ​​such a strategic unification of diverse forces and means, as is the case now, belongs to the Chief of the General Staff of the USSR, Marshal of the Soviet Union Ogarkov .... If so, what is all the crying, moaning with wringing of hands about ...? Out of the blue, they create a problem out of nothing ...
    1. timokhin-aa
      April 18 2019 14: 29
      0
      The commander of the Eastern District sets the task for the commander of the Pacific Fleet and he himself, as a sailor, decides what to do and how ...


      This is the embryo of catastrophe, com. The WWO does not know whether the fleet can carry out such tasks or not. He does not understand this.
      1. Dzungar
        Dzungar April 18 2019 14: 31
        +1
        He knows whether he understands - and where does it ...? He sets the task for the fleet commander, and this one knows exactly what to do. He then understands the specifics of the use of the fleet ... What problems ..? In addition, for the command of such a strategic entity as modern districts, he teaches at the General Staff Academy. Do you think that they bring to the future commanders the specifics of the use of the fleets that they have subordinate to ..?
        1. timokhin-aa
          April 18 2019 14: 50
          +1
          YES can not he often set the task, that's what it is.
          1. Dzungar
            Dzungar April 18 2019 15: 34
            -1
            And who says that he often has to set goals ..? Yes, and if you need to often ask why he can not do this ....? What are the reasons for this your problem already ..?
            1. timokhin-aa
              April 18 2019 15: 52
              +2
              He will not even be able to formulate a number of tasks. Banal "Weapon tracking" for a person with general military education and experience is an empty phrase
    2. LeonidL
      LeonidL April 18 2019 20: 16
      -2
      You, too, correctly understood the question of this series of articles about the Fleet, from amateurs in the fleet who did not serve, but with someone help getting into the topic. See my comment below.
      1. timokhin-aa
        April 18 2019 21: 30
        0
        Anyone who will stoop to reading your comments from article to article, in theory, should be given money for senseless wasting time. Pay attention, they don't even communicate with you. Your aplomb "I am nobody, which means that others are also nobody!" as ridiculous as wretched.
        Nothing to tell you? Do not write anything, what problems?
        1. LeonidL
          LeonidL April 19 2019 02: 19
          -2
          I, dear one, have already said everything about you, I hope those who have the opportunity to analyze what they read will understand. Adieu
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  • xomaNN
    xomaNN April 18 2019 16: 03
    +2
    It's a shame for the fleet angry Somehow, the Headquarters structure of the USSR Navy of the times of Admirals Kuznetsov and Gorshkov comes to mind. I found the times of the last drinks
    1. timokhin-aa
      April 18 2019 18: 52
      0
      Well Kuznetsov is part of the Second World War, and there everything was just like now.

      But Gorshkovskiy times it was a completely different thing, even though I was critical of his approaches to military construction, but then and now it’s like two different civilizations.
  • scorpio
    scorpio April 18 2019 16: 41
    +6
    The conclusion is that the fleet does not have the ability and task to act as a fleet in war and peacetime. The tasks for the fleet are the demonstration of the flag in peacetime and coastal defense in wartime. Plus the firing of SSBNs from the pier. Which proves that neither the Supreme, nor the command of the fleet has a clue they have why they need a fleet.PSV Izvestia got information about the disposal of ORLANOV. Who else believes in Putin's tales about nuclear destroyers?
    1. timokhin-aa
      April 18 2019 18: 46
      +1
      There are problems, there is no possibility.
      Ushakov and Lazarev will be disposed of, they are already unrecoverable. Peter and Nakhimov will continue to serve.
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 April 18 2019 20: 38
        +2
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Ushakov and Lazarev will be disposed of,

        Dear Alexander, but according to Lazarev, where does infa come from for irrecoverability, what if they find money?
        1. timokhin-aa
          April 18 2019 21: 31
          +1
          He lay on the ground already from the leaks. There is no Lazarev, and for a long time already. And the decision is already finalized on recycling.
  • Valdaev
    Valdaev April 18 2019 16: 59
    +3
    NATO will not attack Russia. It is expensive, troublesome and no profit. They will simply observe from the outside how the system rots, and how then it will collapse under the weight of its own problems. Which, by the way, cannot be resolved, but as usual they are retouched and driven deep into the usual shouts about the enemy environment, which are usual for such regimes (the population needs to be distracted from the rotenbergs with something)
  • Eug
    Eug April 18 2019 17: 47
    0
    This indicates the auxiliary role of weakened fleets. The district commanders set tasks for the fleet command to support and ensure the actions of the district troops, the command and fleet headquarters, which received the order, are engaged in planning fleet actions, allocating the necessary forces and means, linking in place and time, establishing communication systems, all types of support, etc. . And the district commanders do not need to go into the intricacies of the fleet's actions ... Unless the district commander will set a task for each ship - but these are already questions to those who appointed it ...
    1. timokhin-aa
      April 18 2019 18: 50
      +1
      The task is the suppression of the combat duty of the enemy SSBNs.

      What side is the county here? How can the district commander at least understand what the sailors are doing?

      You can explain such a thing as "low noise course“submarines?” But on this depends its route to the place of the combat mission, and on the route the required outfit of forces to provide combat service, etc.
    2. timokhin-aa
      April 29 2019 19: 05
      0
      This is especially true, for example, during an anti-submarine search operation. The problem is that the land commander CAN'T set the tasks for the fleet command in most cases - he simply does not have a conceptual apparatus for this.

      The reverse is also true, by the way, so when admirals are appointed to command unions with a large proportion of ground forces, it is not less scary ...
  • Yuriy Malyshko
    Yuriy Malyshko April 18 2019 17: 59
    +5
    Quote: venik
    Some forum members claim that you are almost a "caperrang" ???

    In the navy they say "capraz".
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    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine April 18 2019 18: 15
      +2
      Quote: RoTTor
      Here in the strongest armed forces of Europe - Ukrainian

      Sorry, but why this example?

      You What do you want in Ukraine?
  • Scharnhorst
    Scharnhorst April 18 2019 18: 09
    0
    The USC idea is harmful. Each of the five territorial commanders with their headquarters MUST! to be ready and prepare your diverse forces for the unconditional fulfillment of tasks. For Hitler, the generals for ten years presented all of Europe on a silver platter. A brilliant corporal, becoming supreme, overwhelmed the whole war. Kutuzov, as the supreme, army was saved by Bagration and Barclay. The Academy of the General Staff was created so that a sailor, paratrooper and tanker could succeed using forces as dissimilar as the fleet, aircraft and infantry. No need to wait for the geniuses in the person of Zhukov or Rommel. The military should broaden their horizons, and not just clean their boots to shine.
  • ololo
    ololo April 18 2019 20: 03
    -1
    I do not want to upset the author, but alas, he does not know the military history, to put it mildly.
    Peter 1 conducted the Gangut battle, General Golitsyn defeated the Swedes at Grengam, Alexey Orlov arranged the Chesmu for the Turks, Ushakov carried out wonderful operations on the Ionian Islands, Suvorov successfully loaded the Turkish fleet on the Kinburn spit, Nakhimov and Kornilov kept the army of allies from Sevev for a long time.
    And from foreign leaders ... Napoleon gave the lyuley to Admiral Hood at Toulon.

    With such a dubious opening thesis, is there any point in reading further?
    1. timokhin-aa
      April 18 2019 21: 38
      +1
      And Shaka broke the British formation with spears. That is what it is.
      As the complexity of technology and society, and increasing the complexity of process management.
      For example, Kutuzov did not need to know the theory of probability, but Junior Lieutenant Zapertyukin taught her at the school and taught the chances of his future platoon to maintain combat capability in certain situations with a pencil and calculator.
      Your examples from those times when the requirements for the commander were lower by a hundred times, they are not applicable in today's world.
      A trivial example - can a X-5 warhead mechanic create a fire card for a motorized rifle platoon? In those days about which you wrote there were no mechanics, no warhead-5, no motorized riflemen, no cards of fire.
      1. ololo
        ololo April 29 2019 17: 10
        0
        Yes. And the listed military leaders had neither satellite intelligence nor radio communications. But there were brains. Suvorov, by the way, perfectly understood the problem of personnel saving and solved it with the available tools. And if he did not know the theory of probability, he understood its principles on an intuitive level. And by the way, Suvorov was not lazy already being a glorified general to pass the exam for midshipman.
        And in those days, military engineering was well developed. And the battles were also miscalculated in advance.
        It didn’t occur to you that when a landfighter fights sailors (and vice versa), does this mean that he imagines their capabilities?
        1. timokhin-aa
          April 29 2019 18: 48
          0
          And the listed military leaders had neither satellite intelligence, nor radio communications. But there were brains.


          Were But even between 1941 and 1945 for years, the time during which the infantry commander must make decisions during the attack decreased by about 8.
          It's not that in the old days people were stupider - they weren't. The fact is that the amount of knowledge and skills that a commander must possess today, and which he must be able to use "to the fullest," exceeds that of that time by hundreds of times.
          Today, the questions of military control go beyond the capabilities of man, and beyond the biologically defined framework, beyond those that are insurmountable.
          And this has been so for more than a hundred years, but until a certain moment it was possible to manage with such a man-machine system as a "headquarters", now the headquarters, which does not have computers and appropriate software, risks being late in all cases, and soon the headquarters are not equipped with systems artificial intelligence will be doomed, often along with controlled troops.

          In these conditions, it is naivety to believe that an intelligent naval officer will be able to “set the heat” on land in a SERIOUS war due to his intellect, will and ingenuity. It will be more of an anomaly than a rule, it will only be somewhere in the Marine Corps, in some kind of low-intensity conflict, where the issue of qualifications is not so acute and you can go out on personal courage.

          But it will be exactly that exception.
          1. ololo
            ololo April 29 2019 19: 03
            0
            An intelligent naval officer not only can, but must also be able to "set the heat". Since he should be interested in land trends. At least for the sake of not being "pushed" from the shore. Of course, I am not considering various warrant officers (BCH-5, for example) who wear shoulder straps because of the salary system. But the commander of a ship or formation must be ready to fulfill the assigned combat mission of destroying the land enemy.
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      1. Fan-fan
        Fan-fan April 19 2019 06: 11
        -1
        And you yourself are not capable of writing anything, but you know how to throw yourself in gamma.
  • Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 April 18 2019 20: 33
    -2
    as a unique specialist in command and control, I’ll put in my five cents .... of course, the problems of military command and control can be more or less complex and always require improvement, Alexander Timokhin sees problems here and they are, but what alternative does Timokhin offer? To organize a separate branch of the armed forces, to organize the type of troops in the USSR and operational interaction through Moscow? That is, the involvement of Pacific Fleet forces to support the ground forces will require coordination in the General Staff of the Navy, and also aviation through the General Staff of the Air Force? Of course, the operational command on the spot is much more effective, especially since the fleet is coastal. Only the management of submarines and especially Strategic nuclear submarines can be assigned to a separate structure. As for the message that the commander of the district is stupid and will not be able to figure out how to use the fleet, ..... well, not .... not stupid, and if he doesn’t know what, he will consult his fleet deputy.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. timokhin-aa
      April 18 2019 21: 40
      0
      I propose to return to the plan of General Baluyevsky, as the most successful option. It was not long to finalize it, but at the first exercises the failures were due to the lack of experience in managing interspecific groups and inadequate means of communication.
      Now there is already experience, and even - about a miracle - a connection.
      1. Camrad
        Camrad April 18 2019 22: 40
        +1
        Whom does the Pacific Fleet report to? Commander of the Navy? Not. He submits to Lieutenant-General Gennady Valerievich Zhidko, commander of the Eastern Military District, a graduate of the Tashkent Higher Tank Command Military School, who served his whole life in the land forces. How so? And the Pacific Fleet is part of the Eastern Military District and receives orders in the "normal" mode from the district headquarters.

        And the Black Sea Fleet? And he, with the Caspian Flotilla, is part of the Southern Military District, led by Lieutenant-General Mikhail Yuryevich Teplinsky, a paratrooper.

        And the Baltic? Lieutenant-General Viktor Borisovich Astapov, also a paratrooper.


        Though google something that someone commands the districts? The rest is generally no comment ...
        1. timokhin-aa
          April 19 2019 16: 34
          -1
          Googled
          Oriental.
          https://structure.mil.ru/structure/okruga/east/head.htm
          With western and southern, I didn’t know what the commanders had changed there.

          In principle, this does not change anything.
  • Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 April 18 2019 20: 49
    +3
    Quote: venik
    In fact - "mosquito fleet" !!!
    What was the "far sea" and "ocean" zone? Yes, in general, NOTHING !!!

    and now the ocean fleet consists only of nuclear submarines in fact, one combat-ready cruiser Ustinov in service, which can be considered an ocean surface ship, cannot be called the OCEAN FLEET! Several old BODs can be given to a single cruiser ... but it is more necessary off the coast, to defend the Homeland, and not to roam the oceans ....
  • Spiridonovich2
    Spiridonovich2 April 18 2019 20: 54
    +5
    Does Russia need a fleet? Slowly we cut the cruisers, Soviet-built submarines, eat up everything that still keeps afloat and then the finish line. The managers did their job. During the years of "successful" capitalist rule, not a single destroyer or cruiser was built, and one cannot even dream of aircraft carriers. We are stopping the construction of the submarine fleet. We'll have to continue to scare the whole world with new cartoons.
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 19 October 2020 06: 01
      0
      Let me remind you that it was the "communist" government that led to the economic collapse. After that, it took a long time to get out of ...
      It's bad that there are few modern ships and nuclear submarines. Customers want to get everything at once, in the end - long-term construction.
      An example is the story with corvettes 20385 and frigates 22350 with an unworkable air defense system, a problem gun, and dubious TA. (IMHO, it was necessary to build a larger series of frigates 11356, which is cheaper than 20380 (385) and is well debugged in production).
      With regard to the nuclear submarine: the same "Severodvinsk" is heavily overweight and "stuffed" with missiles, which slows down the construction of these boats and increases its cost, as well as operation. New SSBNs are armed with a crude SLBM "Bulava", a similar story with the aforementioned SAM)
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  • skazochnik
    skazochnik April 19 2019 03: 55
    +4
    And for the soldiers that tactical gloves were not found? So it will be in the exercises with bare hands in Africa? They (gloves) are not put to the field uniform, tea is not the 19th century in the yard. And in general, today's army is somehow ridiculous to her God, God forbid that it begins, it will be a disaster for us worse than the summer of 1941. I would like to make a mistake, but it seems to me like that.
    1. timokhin-aa
      April 19 2019 16: 35
      -2
      In theory, the gloves should be, although they have us frankly so-so.
  • Alex t
    Alex t April 19 2019 07: 21
    +1
    I would not worry so much about the combat effectiveness of our army and navy. We have so many generals / generals, including "civilians", that if something happens, we will form a whole division, which we will plug gaps in the fronts. Joke)))
    Once I talked with one KGB retirement. He told that in the USSR in the 9th department of the KGB there was ONE general - the head of the department. You can google on the Internet what they "fashioned" on the basis of the former "nine" and how many generals there are. Everything is in the public domain. I don't think things are much better in the army and navy.
  • DPN
    DPN April 19 2019 15: 41
    0
    And why does it NEED in a difficult moment it still will not help, as it happened in 1991, everyone swore allegiance and no one left the country called the USSR to save, and now everything is over the hill
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 19 October 2020 05: 55
      0
      The party is heavily ... Most people had no doubts that all this was not viable, there was a consensus.
      Whoever wanted to - left, and the inhabitants of the RSFSR on starvation rations did not want to die for no reason (to collect the breakaway part of the "empire").
  • flicker
    flicker April 19 2019 18: 47
    +1
    Destroyed management. Single fleet command is long gone
    Another cry of Yaroslavna lol
    But there is unified command of all military branches, including the Navymuch cooler bully
  • alexnmv5
    alexnmv5 April 19 2019 19: 58
    +3
    How long will the publication publish articles of absolutely incompetent people and false analysts. They only embarrass with their frank blizzard people who, for example, to the fleet, have nothing to do with it, but want to know everything. And their head is clogged with this nonsense. Not an article, but some kind of dog nonsense.
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 19 October 2020 05: 52
      0
      Articles of shapkozakidatel are also published. This is an open area, if anything
  • Lapunevsky
    Lapunevsky April 19 2019 21: 12
    +1
    The command (combat operations and their planning) of fleets is directly dealt with by the commanders of the fleets and squadrons. And the fact that they receive orders directly from the district commanders is normal.
  • AlexeyD
    AlexeyD April 19 2019 22: 09
    +1
    Again an article in a provocative style.
    One gets the feeling that someone decided to walk the cat around the Navy.
    Fleet management at the operational and operational-strategic level is affected here.
    If you look, then problems can be found in any kind of troops.
    The impression was that the Navy had been pushed somewhere in the backyard. This is not entirely true. The fleet has always interacted with all branches and types of troops. The form of interaction has changed, the essence is practically unchanged. Doesn't the author understand that the current structure of governance is governance in peacetime. In the case of "alga" everything will be different.
  • PavelT
    PavelT April 20 2019 00: 31
    +2
    A little off topic article, but about the cards in this article!
    Pay attention to the American (English-speaking) map at the beginning of the article.

    There you can clearly see the outlines of the Kuriles and Kamchatka, to which the "blue" AUG (or a pair of AUG) approaches. Our "red" aviation is attacking this fleet from the shore. Everything seems to be logical here ...
    Another thing is not logical: for some reason, on two islands (like Urup and Simushir) of the Kuril ridge, the "blue" have two land air defense systems (obviously not ships!), Which shoot down our "red" aircraft, I cover my AUG from the west. Question: what are the "blue" air defense systems doing on our Kuril Islands ??? Is this a fiction or a promising operational maneuver for the United States? In case of war, do they plan to seize these almost uninhabited islands and put their air defense systems there?
    Where does this map come from?
    1. timokhin-aa
      April 21 2019 21: 04
      0
      This is a map from the conceptual work on the battle structures of the future AUS, American, of course.
      About the Kuriles there was not a word in it, but you noticed right, neither give nor take.
  • Hiller
    Hiller April 20 2019 22: 03
    0
    The classic fabulist was right - a shoemaker and a pastry maker ..... It looks like some kind of provocative stuffing. The author's reasoning, apart from bewilderment, causes nothing. "All fools - I'm the smartest." Opus on the topic "everything is lost."
    "Landmen, admirals, combined arms, airborne." So what???
    For those who understand and are competent, there are no problems.
    For reference: The Pacific Fleet is commanded by the Commander of the Pacific Fleet!
    Is this a discovery for you ???. As well as other fleets, flotillas.
    Are you allowed to plan and use forces and assets in theater of operations?
    The command structure and tasks of command and control, at least the basics studied ??? In practice used?
    Have you heard anything about the principle of unity of command? Is the General Staff of the RF Armed Forces such a command body known to you? And what about the Russian National Defense Management Center?
    Sorry, but this discussion is about nothing - a complete amateur with a claim to competence. IMHO
  • Twodi
    Twodi April 21 2019 15: 24
    -1
    We do not have sensible admirals. And if there is, then they are not allowed to such high levels. Now look at the post of commander of the Navy. How often do these people change. Seeing what is happening with our fleet as a whole, one gets the feeling that this is an example of either successful sabotage or a complete lack of understanding among our leaders what the fleet is and what to do with it.
    1. yehat
      yehat April 23 2019 10: 27
      0
      our leadership does not need a fleet until it bakes
      and then they are surprised that there are not even enough banal ships for transportation
  • yehat
    yehat April 23 2019 10: 25
    +1
    in a ground hospital a military doctor is unlikely to ever see the so-called "Deck fracture"

    tell me what a deck fracture is laughing
    how many fractures I got, but there haven’t been request
    1. timokhin-aa
      April 29 2019 18: 53
      0
      This is when, from an explosion under the deck, the metal flooring of the deck underfoot once "plays" up and down. The result is a fracture of the legs in those who stand too close to the epicenter.
      1. Town Hall
        Town Hall April 29 2019 19: 04
        -1
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        This is when, from an explosion under the deck, the metal flooring of the deck underfoot once "plays" up and down. The result is a fracture of the legs in those who stand too close to the epicenter.

        And what is the medical point of view of the difference between these shin fractures and non-decked fractures? Are they treated differently?
        1. yehat
          yehat 8 May 2019 10: 35
          0
          Well, as I understand it, this often leads to severe forms of fracture - with a strong displacement of the bones, an open fracture. Not everyone can just leave such a wounded man alive.
  • Indifferent
    Indifferent 25 June 2019 21: 21
    0
    I understand that my squeak in the sea of ​​this absurdity, which the author poured and added commentators, will not be heard. Grandpa Putin is "bad" and everyone else is good, but admirals are not allowed to command. That's just what. One and a half cruisers and a dozen smaller ships for a whole theater of operations ??? But during the Second World War, all fleets were subordinate to the "ground" and fully coped with their tasks. The fleets were small. Here and "sichas" fleets, as such, no, and those pitiful remnants can only perform LIMITED operations at sea for the defense of the coast. Only nuclear submarines are capable of offensive actions, but they are directly controlled from Moscow. And everything else is subordinated to defense. That is why the command is uniform. The author let out the stench and everyone picked up ...
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 19 October 2020 05: 48
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      Inquire about the effectiveness of the fleet during the Second World War, say, the Black Sea.
  • shdr
    shdr 14 September 2019 19: 55
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    There is no combat fleet management system. There is no single command capable of correctly and correctly linking the actions of the fleets with each other and with naval groups deployed somewhere far from the coast of Russia. In general, the fleet as a single organism is not.

    Whom does the Pacific Fleet report to? Commander of the Navy? Not. He submits to Lieutenant-General Gennady Valerievich Zhidko, commander of the Eastern Military District, a graduate of the Tashkent Higher Tank Command Military School, who served his whole life in the land forces. How so? And the Pacific Fleet is part of the Eastern Military District and receives orders in the "normal" mode from the district headquarters.


    How cute. The types and branches of the Armed Forces exist for the convenience of administration, recruitment and training, therefore, in civilized countries, the command of the branches does not have the functions of operational command and control of troops. In Germany, the types and arms of the troops are "headed" by inspectors who do not have any command authority. The types of the US Armed Forces are generally headed by civilian officials, and all the various forces are brought together into joint / interspecific commands with a single commander in the theater of operations. So Zhidko, the fleet commander, is finally a step in the right direction.

    What are you saying? In Russia there is no interspecific doctrine and nobody teaches anyone to manage interspecific groupings? Well, whose problems are these?
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 19 October 2020 05: 17
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    However, some enemy can force us to come to the necessary states by force, as has happened more than once in history

    It's all confused: what kind of story? The attacks were driven by specific moments.
    Maybe, for example, milking us to repeat the devastating Mongol invasion and 200 years of occupation with their own princes-collaborationists (including A. Nevsky, by the way)? No.
    Can an adventurer dictator who has captured half of Europe move his forces against the Russian Federation, neglecting the millions of victims of his soldiers and fellow citizens? - There are no such people, in the countries of 3 of the world they remained, and that is not enough.
    And the balance of power is different now, there is nuclear weapons, the principle of containment.
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 19 October 2020 05: 19
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    Also a very useful article, was not aware of so "advanced" ( belay) command systems good