Military Review

Armored vehicles against infantry. Who is faster: a tank or an infantryman?

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In the first article, we looked at the effectiveness of tank fire support, the Terminator BMPT in the context of the OODA cycle (NORD - observation, orientation, decision, action) by John Boyd. Based on the analysis of the solutions implemented in the design of the support combat vehicle tanks (BMPT) "Terminator-1/2", there is no reason to believe that with its help the task of fire support of tanks against tank dangerous personnel will be solved effectively.


This is primarily due to the fact that the BMPT has the means of reconnaissance and weapons guidance comparable to those used in modern main battle tanks (MBT), infantry fighting vehicles (BMP) and armored personnel carriers (APCs), as a result of which the BMPT will not have advantages in the situational awareness of the crew compared with the crew of the MBT. Secondly, the speed of targeting weapons BMPT on the living force of the enemy is also comparable to the speed of targeting weapons tank or BMP, and much lower than the speed with which the infantryman can carry out targeting anti-tank weapons.

Is it possible to somehow increase the situational awareness of the crews of armored vehicles and the speed of use of weapons? To begin, consider the speed of the guidance and use of weapons, that is, the phase of the “action” of the NORD cycle.

Ammunition Speed


Ammunition speed is limited. When firing from a tank or rapid-fire automatic cannon, the initial velocity of their projectile (750-1000 m / s) is substantially higher than the initial speed of an anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) or a grenade launcher, since the latter need time to accelerate. However, the greater the firing range, the more the velocity of the projectile decreases, while the marching speed of the ATGM (300-600 m / s) may remain unchanged throughout the flight range. An exception is the armor-piercing feathered sub-caliber shells, whose speed (1500-1750 m / s) is significantly higher than the speed of high-explosive fragmentation (RP) shells, but in the context of fighting armored vehicles with manpower, this does not matter.

In the medium, in the possible and in the short term, hypersonic ATGM will appear, sometimes it comes to hypersonic bulletsIn the future, electrothermochemical and electromagnetic (rail) guns may appear (“railgun” on armored vehicles is more likely a distant future).


The project of electrothermochemical gun caliber 60 mm Rapid Fire ET US Navy


Armored vehicles against infantry. Who is faster: a tank or an infantryman?

Prototype tank electrothermochemical ETC-gun XM360


However, the increase in the speed of rockets and shells is unlikely to drastically change the situation in the confrontation of armored vehicles and manpower. Electrothermochemical guns with hypersonic projectiles will appear in armored vehicles, and hypersonic ATGMs in infantry will appear. At present, it can be generally considered that the average flight speed of projectiles and anti-tank missiles / rocket-propelled grenades is comparable, and the advantage of one type of weapon depends on the range of use of specific weapons, and most likely the situation will continue in the future.

However, in the “action” phase, not only the shot itself occurs, but also the weapon targeting process that precedes it.

Guidance speed


The speed of the smooth guidance of the gun and turret of the BMP-2 in the “semi-automatic” mode does not exceed 0,1 degrees / s, the maximum pointing speeds are in the horizontal plane 30 degrees / s, and in the vertical plane - 35 degrees / s. The speed of rotation of the BMD-3 turret is 28,6 degrees / s, and the turret of the T-90 tank is 40 degrees / s. Video analysis shows that the turnaround speed of the T-14 tank turret on the Armata platform is also about 40-45 degrees / s.


Rotation of the turret of the T-14 tank on the Armata platform at 360 degrees

Thus, based on the characteristics of the pointing devices and the speed at which the weapons of the combat vehicles turn, it can be assumed that the time of the pointing phase of the weapons to the previously detected target (when shifting to 180 degrees) is about 4,5-6 seconds, while the projectile / ATGM / RPG shot speed at a distance of 1 km will be about 1-3 seconds, that is, the speed of aiming and pointing weapons in the "action" phase play a greater role than the speed of the munition (although the speed of the munition is important and its value increases with increasing firing range).

Is it possible to increase the speed of targeting weapons? Existing technologies quite allow to do this. For example, the speed of movement of the axes of a modern industrial robot can exceed 200 degrees / s, ensuring the accuracy of the repetitive movements of 0,02-0,1 mm. At the same time, the length of the “arm” of an industrial robot can reach several meters, and its mass is hundreds of kilograms.




The speed of movement of industrial robots

It is hardly possible to implement similar speeds of turret rotation and pointing guns of a tank of caliber 125-152 mm due to their considerable mass, and as a result of high moments of inertia, but increasing to 180 degrees / s of the speed of turning and pointing weapons of unmanned remote-controlled weapons modules (DUMV) with a cannon caliber 30 mm can be quite real.

High-speed weapon modules with an 30-mm automatic cannon can be installed on both infantry combat vehicles (BMP) or their heavy modifications (TBMP) and on armored personnel carriers (APCs). Due to the current downward trend DUMV with 30-mm automatic guns, such complexes can be placed directly on the OBT turret instead of the 12,7 mm machine gun, drastically increasing its ability to combat tank-dangerous manpower, especially in combination with remote-controlled shells on the trajectory.


Armored car "Tigr" with DUMV with a machine gun of caliber 12,7 mm (left) and it with a DUMV with a gun of caliber 30 mm and machine gun 7,62 mm


The possibility of implementing DUMVs with high-speed pointing drives based on 30-mm automatic cannons can be their advantage compared to larger caliber implements (for example, DUMVs based on 57-mm guns), the achievement of high pointing speeds of which will be limited by an increase in weight and size characteristics. And, of course, the implementation of high-speed targeting is possible only in unmanned combat modules, due to rotational overloads.

Lasers against enemy manpower


Another highly effective means of defeating tank-dangerous manpower can be laser weapon power 5-15 kW. Currently, lasers of such power already exist, but their dimensions are still quite large. It can be expected that in the near future, along with the increase in power of combat lasers, the dimensions of less powerful models will decrease, which will allow them to be placed on armored vehicles as a separate weapon module first, and then as part of the DUMV, combined with an automatic gun and / or machine gun .


BTR Stryker MEHEL with a laser power 2-5 kW, previously planned to increase power to 18 kW, in 2021, the US Army plans to test on a BTR Stryker laser power 100 kW


To guarantee damage to manpower by a laser, it will be necessary to develop effective guidance algorithms. Modern body armor can be a serious obstacle to the laser beam, so it is necessary that the guidance system automatically defeats the target in the most vulnerable places - the face or neck, just as face recognition occurs in modern digital cameras.

It must be noted here that laser blinding is contrary to the fourth protocol of the Geneva Convention on “inhumane” weapons, but it must be understood that a 5-15 kW laser beam entering an unprotected face or neck is highly likely to cause death. Protecting an infantryman from such a laser is very difficult if you hide it in a closed suit with an exoskeleton and with a helmet with optical isolation, that is, when the image is captured by cameras and displayed on the eye screen or projected into the pupil. Such technologies, even if implemented in the near future, will be of high cost, therefore they will be available to a limited number of military personnel of the world's leading armies.


Future soldier equipment concepts


Thus, an increase in the effectiveness of the battle of armored combat vehicles with enemy manpower in the “action” phase can be achieved by installing high-speed weapon guidance drives, and in the future using laser weapons as part of combat modules.

The ability of armored vehicles to direct their weapons at the highest speed inaccessible to humans will in many respects contribute to reducing the threat posed by enemy manpower. The “action” phase, that is, targeting and shooting, is preceded by the “observation”, “orientation” and “decision” phases, the effectiveness of which is directly dependent on the situational awareness of the crews of armored vehicles.

On ways to address the lack of situational awareness of the crews of armored vehicles will discuss in the following material.
Author:
Photos used:
topwar.ru, newsader.com, btvt.info
122 comments
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  1. tank-master
    tank-master 9 June 2019 18: 09
    +1
    I read ... the author is not aware that there is a turret transfer speed along the GN and there is an accurate pointing speed, but it is just minimized for the accuracy of the guidance and plus more time to work out the drives when introducing amendments, so there is time for detection and aiming at the target a little more than he calculated. In general, the problem is old, like war, it all depends on who first detects, takes aim ... and gets with a guaranteed incapacitation, since getting into an BTT object does not mean its destruction, but getting into an infantryman is a guaranteed elimination out of service.
    1. Shopping Mall
      9 June 2019 18: 34
      +4
      Quote: tank-master
      Read ... the author does not know that there is a transfer speed of the tower on the GN


      The transfer speed is exactly 20-30 degrees / s.

      Quote: tank-master
      Accurate guidance speed, but it is minimized for accuracy of pointing and plus more time for testing drives when introducing corrections, so the time for detection and targeting is slightly longer than he calculated. In general, the problem is as old as the war, it all depends on who first finds it, takes aim ... and will fall with guaranteed disabling, since getting into the BTT object does not mean its destruction, but getting into an infantryman is a guaranteed elimination out of service.


      If we talk about precise pointing of the drives, then for those = industrial robots, the repeatability of movements is 0,02-0,06 degrees. Speed ​​accurate guidance is needed in order to direct stupid joysticks and other joysticks. We will talk about fast and accurate targeting and situational awareness in the following material.
      1. tank-master
        tank-master 9 June 2019 20: 28
        +1
        "Accurate aiming speed is needed in order to aim with stupid joysticks and other joysticks." - so far no one has suggested anything better .. and you as well. Although pointing with the joystick in the Agat complex on the T-80UD and similarly on the T-90 .. is still a pleasure .., but as they say, an alternative must be offered.
        1. Shopping Mall
          9 June 2019 21: 06
          +2
          Quote: tank-master
          "Accurate aiming speed is needed in order to aim with stupid joysticks and other joysticks." - so far no one has suggested anything better .. and you as well. Although pointing with the joystick in the Agat complex on the T-80UD and similarly on the T-90 .. is still a pleasure .., but as they say, an alternative must be offered.


          Be sure to offer. But in the following material. It is difficult to squeeze everything into one article.
          1. tank-master
            tank-master 10 June 2019 10: 21
            0
            As a tank builder .. it will be interesting for me to listen to your point of view .. although as I understand it, you haven’t pointed a tank gun for the "Cheburashka" yet .. and in this case, the "amateur"
  2. Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 9 June 2019 18: 13
    +4
    Well, and how will this solve the problem of camouflaged settlements with anti-tank systems? No one has invented anything more efficiently than saturating an area with infantry with the support of tanks “from a distance”.
    1. Shopping Mall
      9 June 2019 18: 37
      +1
      Quote: Krasnodar
      So how does this solve the problem of disguised calculations with ATGM?


      High speed guidance is part of the solution. KAZ can beat off one or two ATGM shots, but its capabilities are limited and it is necessary to react to a strike as quickly as possible. In general, the discovery refers more to situational awareness.

      Quote: Krasnodar
      No one has yet invented anything more effective than saturation of the terrain with infantry supported by tanks "from a distance".


      Infantry brakes armored vehicles.
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 9 June 2019 18: 57
        +3
        Well, if you are talking about fast tank breakthroughs plus entering the “operational space” - then yes, it slows down. But in this case, aviation, artillery, maybe other tanks (from the enemy’s operational reserve) will work on the tanks. The protection of armored vehicles from the infantry is needed at the very breakthrough of the defense or during the wars with guerrilla - a la Second Lebanon, etc. During the very breakthrough of the enemy’s defense, the launch of “bare”, without infantry, tanks, none of the BMPTs will decide. They will launch several rockets from anti-tank systems on an armored vehicle and change positions. Here's a constant connection with the drones on the battlefield will help them in the future to track down and prevent redeployment (destroy).
        1. Shopping Mall
          9 June 2019 19: 06
          +2
          Quote: Krasnodar
          Well, if you are talking about fast tank breakthroughs plus entering the “operational space” - then yes, it slows down. But in this case, aviation, artillery, maybe other tanks (from the enemy’s operational reserve) will work on the tanks. The protection of armored vehicles from the infantry is needed at the very breakthrough of the defense or during the wars with guerrilla - a la Second Lebanon, etc. During the very breakthrough of the enemy’s defense, the launch of “bare”, without infantry, tanks, none of the BMPTs will decide. They will launch several rockets from anti-tank systems on an armored vehicle and change positions. Here's a constant connection with the drones on the battlefield will help them in the future to track down and prevent redeployment (destroy).


          In modern warfare, aircraft in armored vehicles can only work if one side has complete air supremacy, and in this case, the other side has almost no chance.

          In groups of armored vehicles will be able to work with submarines MLRS, yes, anti-tank and much more, which either shoots from a distance, or disguised.

          In order to avoid defeat in the group, there are network-centric scenarios of application - "move apart, beat together", and such a field is characterized by unpredictability and suddenness of threats to which ground equipment must be able to respond quickly. A quick response is one of the elements, most likely the simplest and most inexpensive.
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 9 June 2019 20: 06
            +3
            In modern warfare, aircraft in armored vehicles can only work if one side has complete air supremacy, and in this case, the other side has almost no chance.

            And if there is a struggle for supremacy in the air, then they will not be able to hammer on armored vehicles with all sorts of warthogs, Su 24, Rooks and helicopters?
            1. Shopping Mall
              9 June 2019 21: 11
              +2
              Quote: Krasnodar
              In modern warfare, aircraft in armored vehicles can only work if one side has complete air supremacy, and in this case, the other side has almost no chance.

              And if there is a struggle for supremacy in the air, then they will not be able to hammer on armored vehicles with all sorts of warthogs, Su 24, Rooks and helicopters?


              Frankly speaking, in my opinion, their influence in a serious conflict will be extremely limited. It's one thing for the Mujahideen to hammer, another for the high-tech army.

              Even with the loss of air supremacy, the Su 24, Rooks and helicopters are a fairly simple target for the TOP-type air defense systems and Pantsir-type air defense systems. It is not for nothing that the USA abandoned such a cool car as the RAH-66 Comanche.

              If only the fighters of the fifth generation are to fight armored vehicles, but this will be after gaining superiority, as for me.
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 9 June 2019 21: 24
                +3
                I agree, but you can’t even tightly cover the tanks with anti-aircraft artillery (rocket, cannon), although it’s difficult to judge this - in modern conflicts, only Shilka and Roland covered the armored vehicles. As for the fifth generation fighters against armored vehicles - definitely not, all sorts of F-16s with the Su-30 and the Rafals can cope - the Torah with the Carapace will be demolished from afar and will take up the tanks
  3. Kars
    Kars 9 June 2019 18: 14
    +2
    Too hard. The current level of armored vehicles is quite adequate to the tasks. Dorobot kaz to increase fast action, and try not to drive the tanks in the dense buildings. Why did you invent them? And in battles of low intensity it is always possible to launch infantry forward.
    1. Aaron Zawi
      Aaron Zawi 9 June 2019 18: 36
      +4
      Quote: Kars
      Too hard. The current level of armored vehicles is quite adequate to the tasks. Dorobot kaz to increase fast action, and try not to drive the tanks in the dense buildings. Why did you invent them? And in battles of low intensity it is always possible to launch infantry forward.

      Yes, equipment without infantry in development is extremely vulnerable. Here, KAZ will not help if a car is attacked by several RPGs.
      1. Shopping Mall
        9 June 2019 19: 44
        0
        It seems that somewhere about two shots from one direction. If you look, KAZ mortars often stand on the tower, i.e. it is necessary to turn it on each shot by several degrees, when attacking with two or three shots, the attackers' chances will increase. And there are still grenade launchers with false ammunition.
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 9 June 2019 19: 56
          +5
          KAZ not only knocks down. He immediately transfers the coordinates of the shooter to the OMS
          guns. And there is an automatic ability to retaliate.
          That is: the ATGM operator shoots, KAZ shoots a missile, the tank turret rotates
          (automatically) towards the shot and the gun fires at the operator.
          This system exists on Merkava-4, but, as far as is known, in automatic
          mode was not applied. Only under the control of a tank commander.
          1. SETSET
            SETSET 11 June 2019 01: 40
            -1
            voyaka uh, do not write fairy tales, an illiterate strategist, learn the materiel - there will not be enough time to detect and destroy the operator ...
          2. abc_alex
            abc_alex 19 June 2019 23: 37
            0
            That is why all domestic ATGMs designed for war of armies, and not for dispersal of bearded in sneakers, have a launcher and operator’s workplace spaced in space :) Tea is not made in Israel ... wink
      2. riwas
        riwas 10 June 2019 04: 35
        +2
        One RPG is enough if you shoot from the upper floors of buildings.
    2. Shopping Mall
      9 June 2019 18: 39
      0
      Quote: Kars
      Too hard. The current level of armored vehicles is quite adequate to the tasks. Dorobot kaz to increase fast action, and try not to drive the tanks in the dense buildings. Why did you invent them? And in battles of low intensity it is always possible to launch infantry forward.


      Is that hard? High speed drives? Come on, it is quite real. Most likely it is the inertia of the industry. In armored vehicles with habitable modules, the speed of reversal is limited by the crew’s ability to withstand overloads, and in DUMV to increase the speed is quite realistic, no fiction.
      1. lucul
        lucul 9 June 2019 21: 39
        -2
        Most likely the matter is inertia of industry.

        Rather than in industry, but in inertia (inertia) of the thinking of generals and designers.
  4. lucul
    lucul 9 June 2019 18: 41
    0
    I saw it before — I destroyed it before.
    All armored vehicles need to upgrade detection equipment.
    Without them, all the tools described in the article are ineffective.
    1. Shopping Mall
      9 June 2019 19: 07
      +1
      Quote: lucul
      I saw it before — I destroyed it before.
      All armored vehicles need to upgrade detection equipment.
      Without them, all the tools described in the article are ineffective.


      That's right - raising situational awareness is most important of all, about this in the following material.
      1. lucul
        lucul 9 June 2019 20: 33
        -3
        Raising situational awareness is most important, more on that in the next article.

        Then we wait.
  5. Evil echo
    Evil echo 9 June 2019 18: 47
    -3
    An industrial robot works according to a given program, introduce a little uncertainty into its algorithm, and where will it be?
    1. Shopping Mall
      9 June 2019 19: 07
      +2
      Quote: Evil Echo
      An industrial robot works according to a given program, introduce a little uncertainty into its algorithm, and where will it be?


      And here is the algorithm. We only need drives from it. And the robot has 6 axes, and we have only 2.
  6. Blacksmith 55
    Blacksmith 55 9 June 2019 18: 58
    +1
    I do not know, so I apologize immediately if the question seems stupid.
    Everyone understands that dozens, or even hundreds of bullets are fired in a battle per second, and if at least one gets into the laser or the surveillance device, it (the device, the laser) will fail right away.
    I understand that there are alternative ways of tracking and fire control, I mean modern electronic devices. A lot of time has passed since my service in the SA, times and technology have changed beyond recognition.
    1. Shopping Mall
      9 June 2019 19: 11
      0
      Quote: smith 55
      I do not know, so I apologize immediately if the question seems stupid.
      Everyone understands that dozens, or even hundreds of bullets are fired in a battle per second, and if at least one gets into the laser or the surveillance device, it (the device, the laser) will fail right away.
      I understand that there are alternative ways of tracking and fire control, I mean modern electronic devices. A lot of time has passed since my service in the SA, times and technology have changed beyond recognition.



      I think the problem here is that there are few who want to shoot a tank from a submachine gun / machine gun, realizing that the chance to confidently hit the optics is small, and a projectile with a remote undermining can fly into the return line. Rather, a shot from a grenade launcher or anti-tank guided missile. Yes, and develop bulletproof transparent ceramics.

      But if on the enemy's armored vehicles there is a powerful laser with an automatic guidance system on the enemy's optics, then this will already be much more dangerous. We need sensors and "instant" shutters to protect the sensitive elements of the optics.
      1. Saxahorse
        Saxahorse 9 June 2019 22: 26
        -2
        Quote: AVM
        I think the problem here is that there are few who want to shoot the tank with a machine gun / machine gun, realizing that the chance to confidently hit the optics is small, and a shell with a remote detonation can fly into the return line.

        Judging by the videos from the same Syria and Libya, they are beating just like that. In addition to the bullets, there are fragments, they are heavier. Mortars, for example, also try to work on tanks. And it’s scary to look at a modern tank, the whole tower is in glass. Honestly, there are doubts about the survivability of all this equipment under fire.
    2. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 9 June 2019 20: 00
      +3
      "He (the device, the laser) will immediately fail." ///
      ----
      No. Devices, video cameras of the tank are protected by bulletproof
      glass (crystal) of high transparency.
      You can only break it with a shell.
      1. Blacksmith 55
        Blacksmith 55 9 June 2019 20: 21
        +1
        AVM and warrior, thanks for the clarification, at least for three cents, but wiser.
      2. 113262a
        113262a 9 June 2019 20: 52
        +1
        Come on! 5,45 in the head of a tank sight and NEVER NEVER, I DON'T SHOOT ANYWHERE! At least with the PDS t-64 and t-80 - just like that! So it was in 80-e of the last century, when the deadline served, and now ... no better!
        1. Shopping Mall
          9 June 2019 21: 13
          +2
          Quote: 113262
          Come on! 5,45 in the head of a tank sight and NEVER NEVER, I DON'T SHOOT ANYWHERE! At least with the PDS t-64 and t-80 - just like that! So it was in 80-e of the last century, when the deadline served, and now ... no better!


          Most likely they did not have such protection. Transparent ceramics child of the XXI century. I'm not sure that we have defended our optics even now, but I hope so.
  7. evgen1221
    evgen1221 9 June 2019 19: 02
    +2
    Again, gentlemen, about the technology and tactics of application for what kind of war are we talking about? Ala 41 is one thing, but driving partisans (depending on where else) is different. But you cannot create a universal one and under both options you will tear 2 pieces of everything but different for the army. That's the question in the state’s strategy — we want to fight ourselves, we do the defense another. Plus, our attitude to the peaceful people (as Americans spit on them), if not, then the tactics with the equipment are different. And consider one two samples in isolation from the general task that a spherical horse should be viewed from all projections.
  8. Bodipancher
    Bodipancher 9 June 2019 19: 08
    -1
    The launch of an anti-tank missile is always accompanied by a flash and often laser irradiation. The speed of rotation of the remotely controlled module allows you to instantly deploy it to the launch point and release light grenades to blind the gunner / heat traps against javelin missiles. And then the operator can return fire. The article correctly expressed the idea of ​​equipping such modules with a 30 mm gun, since the fragmentation of the high-explosive shells makes it possible to level out errors in aiming in such a rapidly changing situation.
    1. 113262a
      113262a 9 June 2019 20: 54
      +1
      You imagine a review of the tank imagine? Until now, the CT is protruding from its hatch, because, as before, the best view of the ... mechvod!
      1. Shopping Mall
        9 June 2019 21: 16
        +1
        Quote: 113262
        You imagine a review of the tank imagine? Until now, the CT is protruding from its hatch, because, as before, the best view of the ... mechvod!


        Personally, I saw how the driver of the BTR was driving with his foot, leaning out of the hatch. And while I was sitting next to him in a chair without belts, which resembled a stool (I could not hold, my hands were occupied with equipment), and imagined what would happen if we saw somewhere, and how I would flow along the inner wall of the armor.
      2. Bodipancher
        Bodipancher 9 June 2019 22: 12
        0
        The article also discusses the prospects for the development of armored vehicles. The disadvantages of the current technology are known to all.
  9. Operator
    Operator 9 June 2019 19: 28
    -4
    BT, equipped with KAZ, definitely wins the infantry with a dry score.

    The caliber and speed of pointing the gun BT in this case is unimportant of the word at all.
    1. Shopping Mall
      9 June 2019 19: 38
      +1
      Quote: Operator
      BT, equipped with KAZ, definitely wins the infantry with a dry score.

      The caliber and speed of pointing the gun BT in this case is unimportant of the word at all.



      And how many shots at the same time can repel KAZ?
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 9 June 2019 20: 03
        +3
        If the difference between shots is at least a few seconds,
        it’s somewhat on the one hand.
        When the Trophies were tested in the States, they fired a volley of several
        RPG on one side of the tank. And the results of the work of KAZ were recognized as successful.
        1. cat Rusich
          cat Rusich 10 June 2019 21: 25
          -1
          am RPG-30 Hook? good
      2. Operator
        Operator 9 June 2019 20: 08
        -2
        In the case of placing counter ammunition in individual launchers, the interval between the defeat of the attacking ammunition flying from one azimuth will be equal to the time the counter ammunition is fired - approximately 0,01 seconds or 3 of the ATGM flight distance.

        Those. when attempting to attack a tank salvo from an azimuth, fragments of the first counter-ammunition and fragments of the first ATGM will shoot down all the other ATGM in a salvo.
  10. Couchexpert
    Couchexpert 9 June 2019 19: 29
    0
    In general, the thoughts in the article are sound. And even it seems clear what the author is driving at: "Terminator" "healthy
    human ":

    And really: now, if you even separate the responsibilities of the guns independent in movement to the right and left (while maintaining the possibility of concentrating fire on one target), then the meaning of having two guns appears, and the guidance speed in theory increases (turret turning speed + turning speed separate gun). But you can’t do without advanced automation anyway.
  11. HUMANOID
    HUMANOID 9 June 2019 19: 29
    0
    Lasers, high-speed drives, additional detection devices, etc. are additional energy, which entails an increase in the generating set, and therefore the mass of the product, hence an increase in the chassis, which is also mass, and so on as a result of a decrease in speed and maneuverability. and lasers, almost all either stationary or on ships, where you can place a large mass and there is a lot of energy.
    1. Shopping Mall
      9 June 2019 19: 38
      +2
      Quote: HUMANOID
      Lasers, high-speed drives, additional detection devices, etc. are additional energy, which entails an increase in the generating set, and therefore the mass of the product, hence an increase in the chassis, which is also mass, and so on as a result of a decrease in speed and maneuverability. and lasers, almost all either stationary or on ships, where you can place a large mass and there is a lot of energy.



      When the cameras were the size of a bazooka, and now in their smartphone on 6 pieces. Lasers will decrease, their efficiency will increase. And about the issue of energy consumption is absolutely correct, we will also return to it.
  12. armata_armata
    armata_armata 9 June 2019 19: 34
    +2
    So (BMPT) "Terminator-1 / 2" will not ensure reliable defeat of manpower, and the laser will provide well, well laughing
    ps I propose to supply the author with a laser machine and send to Syria to wet the bogeyles in such a small dustiness
    1. Shopping Mall
      9 June 2019 19: 36
      +1
      Quote: armata_armata
      So (BMPT) "Terminator-1 / 2" will not ensure reliable defeat of manpower, and the laser will provide well, well laughing
      ps I propose to supply the author with a laser machine and send to Syria to wet the bogeyles in such a small dustiness


      No need to juggle. Somewhere there was a phrase about replacing guns with a laser. The laser has its own niche, its own gun.

      The article talks about the reaction rate. And at the laser it is above all.
      1. armata_armata
        armata_armata 9 June 2019 19: 38
        0
        No need to juggle. Somewhere there was a phrase about replacing guns with a laser. The laser has its own niche, its own gun.

        The article talks about the reaction rate. And at the laser it is above all.

        Yes, even in 100 times higher, one aerosol and there is no laser, no, of course it is, but I can tell from it ...
        What is the point of such weapons?
        1. Shopping Mall
          9 June 2019 19: 41
          0
          Quote: armata_armata
          No need to juggle. Somewhere there was a phrase about replacing guns with a laser. The laser has its own niche, its own gun.

          The article talks about the reaction rate. And at the laser it is above all.

          Yes, even in 100 times higher, one aerosol and there is no laser, no, of course it is, but I can tell from it ...
          What is the point of such weapons?


          What is it like? Is such an infantryman spraying deodorant aerosol before firing an RPG? Throws a smoke grenade? Thus, he unmasks himself in advance and enough guns / machine guns. And do not particularly rely on the aerosol. At a distance of 200-500 m for a laser 5-15 kW you need to create a curtain of such density that you need a separate machine for this. In such a smoke, no one sees a tank at all.
          1. armata_armata
            armata_armata 9 June 2019 19: 46
            -1
            What is it like? Is such an infantryman spraying deodorant aerosol before firing an RPG? Throws a smoke grenade? Thus, he unmasks himself in advance and enough guns / machine guns.

            Ridiculous person, by God, and why should he throw a grenade before, and not after, or think you will find his calculation in seconds, the laser will point, it’s enough to live with fiction
            At a distance of 200-500 m for a laser 5-15 kW you need to create a curtain of such density that you need a separate machine for this. In such a smoke, no one sees a tank at all.

            Who the hell have you said? One grenade with dust and 15 kW to nowhere, and if you pick up KAMAZ sand, then you and the nuclear power plant will not be enough to pierce a dust veil like a laser
            ps why do you think no one has yet implemented your idea, although there have been many attempts?
            1. Shopping Mall
              9 June 2019 20: 34
              -1
              Quote: armata_armata
              What is it like? Is such an infantryman spraying deodorant aerosol before firing an RPG? Throws a smoke grenade? Thus, he unmasks himself in advance and enough guns / machine guns.

              Ridiculous person, by God, and why should he throw a grenade before, and not after, or think you will find his calculation in seconds, the laser will point, it’s enough to live with fiction


              Will guide. But how this can be done in the following material.

              Quote: armata_armata
              At a distance of 200-500 m for a laser 5-15 kW you need to create a curtain of such density that you need a separate machine for this. In such a smoke, no one sees a tank at all.

              Who the hell have you said? One grenade with dust and 15 kW to nowhere, and if you pick up KAMAZ sand, then you and the nuclear power plant will not be enough to pierce a dust veil like a laser


              I don't think that one grenade with "dust" will solve anything. And there will be little use from Kamaz.

              Quote: armata_armata
              [ps what do you think why not who has not yet implemented your idea, although the attempts were unmeasured?


              Everything has its time. For lasers, it is just beginning. Actual results will be for 5-10 years. First of all, lasers in air defense will go to aviation, there they are more necessary and more efficient, and then the ground forces will get them into service. Of course, only in the context of anti-personnel action (well, there is still air defense against the UAV, etc.). Nobody plans to cut tanks with laser.
              1. armata_armata
                armata_armata 9 June 2019 20: 47
                -1
                Will lead. But how this can be done in the next article

                Well, clearly quantum computers are the next piece of material in conjunction with a thermal imager wink
                I don't think that one grenade with "dust" will solve anything. And there will be little use from Kamaz

                But what a little thing, let's immediately introduce us to a laser that pierces the earth and destroys the bunker
                Everything has its time. For lasers, it is just beginning. Actual results will be for 5-10 years. First of all, lasers in air defense will go to aviation, there they are more necessary and more efficient, and then the ground forces will get them into service. Of course, only in the context of anti-personnel action (well, there is still air defense against the UAV, etc.). Nobody plans to cut tanks with laser.

                Of course, of course, we are not forbidden to believe in a miracle winked
            2. lucul
              lucul 9 June 2019 20: 46
              -2
              Funny man by gollyand why would he throw a grenade before, and not after, or do you think the calculation will find it in seconds, the laser will bring it, enough fiction to live

              Really.
              The tank thermal imager doesn't care about visual disguise. If you are not up to date.
              The image on the thermal imager looks something like this: (animals in the photo)
              1. armata_armata
                armata_armata 9 June 2019 20: 48
                0
                Really.
                The thermal imager does not care about visual disguise.

                Indeed, the thermal imager does not care about the thermal illumination from the same burning city, and even in the Middle East where the temperature rises easily for 30 degrees, it is necessary laughing
                1. lucul
                  lucul 9 June 2019 20: 50
                  -2
                  Indeed, the thermal imager does not care about the thermal illumination from the same burning city, and even in the Middle East where the temperature rises easily for 30 degrees, it is necessary

                  You won’t believe what neural networks are capable of now. Filter the picture so that everything will be like the present.
                  There would be a desire.
                  1. armata_armata
                    armata_armata 9 June 2019 20: 55
                    0
                    You won’t believe what neural networks are capable of now. Filter the picture so that everything will be like the present.

                    You won’t believe what sizes the network neutrons occupy now, but I’ll give you the size of the network that can filter at least something

                    And now it’s your task to create a satellite channel for technology that will be able to transfer data from thermal imagers in real time in a sufficient amount)
                    1. lucul
                      lucul 9 June 2019 20: 57
                      -4
                      You will not believe what sizes the network neutrons occupy now

                      You won’t believe it - but such dimensions are needed to train a neural network in an algorithm (an analogy with the human brain is 100%), and after receiving the algorithm, an ordinary PC is enough.)))
                      1. armata_armata
                        armata_armata 9 June 2019 21: 00
                        0
                        You won’t believe it - but such dimensions are needed to train a neural network in an algorithm (an analogy with the human brain is 100%), and after receiving the algorithm, an ordinary PC is enough

                        You won’t believe it, but the whole point of the neural network is to adapt to changing conditions and fulfill your task. A program on a PC can be made without it, but there’s not much sense from it)
                        And in order to train her it is necessary to take part in real hostilities and not one, in this connection I will repeat
                        And now it’s your task to create a satellite channel for technology that will be able to transfer data from thermal imagers in real time in a sufficient amount)
                      2. lucul
                        lucul 9 June 2019 21: 03
                        -3
                        You won’t believe it, but the whole point of the neural network is to adapt to changing conditions and fulfill your task.

                        You will not believe it - but what you wrote is ideal. While neural networks are honing for a certain algorithm, that's all.
                        It’s like computer graphics - while designing, you need excess power. How the code is received - works on a simple PC))
                      3. armata_armata
                        armata_armata 9 June 2019 21: 09
                        0
                        You will not believe it - but what you wrote is ideal. While neural networks are honing for a certain algorithm, that's all.

                        Well, then why are the stories of a super neural network that can recognize something there if you do not have the opportunity to train them and they only work on a certain algorithm for you?))
                      4. lucul
                        lucul 9 June 2019 21: 31
                        -3
                        Well, then why are the stories of a super neural network that can recognize something there if you do not have the opportunity to train them and they only work on a certain algorithm for you?))

                        And think about it? The tank records the picture from the thermal imager (video sequence), and they transfer this record to the neural network, and on the basis of this picture the neural network creates its own algorithm.
                        And then the algorithm is loaded into the tank. )))
                      5. armata_armata
                        armata_armata 10 June 2019 08: 01
                        0
                        And think about it? The tank records the picture from the thermal imager (video sequence), and they transfer this record to the neural network, and on the basis of this picture the neural network creates its own algorithm.
                        And then the algorithm is loaded into the tank. )))

                        Just like a parrot
                        And now it’s your task to create a satellite channel for technology that will be able to transfer data from thermal imagers in real time in a sufficient amount)

                        And yes, dear friend, more than one network will not create an effective algorithm for determining in conditions of global bloom or temperature close to the human body
                      6. lucul
                        lucul 11 June 2019 00: 04
                        -4
                        And yes, dear friend, more than one network will not create an effective algorithm for determining in conditions of global bloom or temperature close to the human body

                        A neural network only needs to be taught to set filters. )))
                        For man, armored vehicles, aviation, cut off everything else.
                        Give you everything ideally))).
                        The experience of recent local wars shows that tanks are destroyed mainly from an ambush, in a column. And not in a pure head-on battle, a la Prokhorovka, as you think.
                        And for the timely detection and destruction of these ambushes (they are visually completely invisible), and serves as a thermal imager. But you, in your stubbornness, imagine only the thick of the oncoming tank battle, where everything is burning, temperatures under 1 grams and the use of the thermal imager is minimal.
      2. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 9 June 2019 21: 51
        +3
        "and even in the Middle East where the temperature is easily over 30 degrees
        rises it is necessary "////
        ----
        The thermal imager works great at night and in hot weather.
        Some boulders that give off heat at night glow
        but highlight animals, people, birds sleeping in trees
        very easy. Sniper just can’t hide.
        1. armata_armata
          armata_armata 10 June 2019 08: 06
          +1
          The thermal imager works great at night and in hot weather.

          It works wonderfully at +37 it distinguishes everyone, the flower is not scary, and the laser breaks through a layer of sand ... That's just something I didn’t notice you have mercenaries with laser weapons, well, it’s clear that your MOs aren’t fools
          1. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 10 June 2019 10: 17
            +1
            Laser in armored vehicles will be accurate. And in our army - one of the first. I do not know, in Merkava or one of the new BMP. This will be a tactical laser replacing one of the machine guns. Noiselessness and instantaneous impact on unarmored targets covers any shortcomings.
            1. armata_armata
              armata_armata 10 June 2019 10: 54
              +1
              Laser in armored vehicles will be accurate. And in our army - one of the first. I do not know, in Merkava or one of the new BMP. This will be a tactical laser replacing one of the machine guns. Noiselessness and instantaneous impact on unarmored targets covers any shortcomings.

              You were late for years on 30, it was then that the USSR and the United States engaged in laser weapons in a dense manner and made a great many installations on tanks and BMPs and machines, only one small one, but they all did not stand up, for quite objective reasons.
            2. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 10 June 2019 10: 55
              0
              Development is spiraling. smile
            3. armata_armata
              armata_armata 10 June 2019 10: 58
              +1
              Development goes in a spiral

              And rests on the same dead ends
              By the way, if we consider a quick way to put the enemy infantry out of action, then the American project with microwave radiation is more likely to go to the tanks than the laser in any form
            4. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 10 June 2019 11: 50
              0
              "And runs into the same dead ends" ///
              ----
              Not at all. 30-40 years ago they did not know how to reduce 10 rays into one spot with a diameter of 10 mm on a target that is several kilometers from the laser.
              And now - calmly. good
              And other computers and fiber optics, and micromechanics - everything else. 21st Century Outside, sir smile
              With all due respect to the achievements of Soviet scientists hi
            5. armata_armata
              armata_armata 10 June 2019 11: 56
              +1
              And other computers and fiber optics, and micromechanics - everything else. 21st Century Outside, sir

              Computers are very good, but the two main problems for laser weapons are: 1) beam scattering in the Earth’s atmosphere 2) the power source for a high-power laser, as they were 30 years ago, remained ... And they cannot be solved by any computers
            6. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 10 June 2019 12: 42
              0
              You do not understand what I wrote?
              They do not build up the power of ONE beam - they came up against this deadlock in the last century - but many rays synchronize on the target. Which was technically impossible 40 years ago.
              And power supplies have changed.
              Have you heard about supercapacitors?
            7. armata_armata
              armata_armata 10 June 2019 12: 50
              +1
              You do not understand what I wrote?
              They do not build up the power of ONE beam - they came up against this deadlock in the last century - but many rays synchronize on the target. Which was technically impossible 40 years ago.

              It seems you didn’t understand, the scattering of a ray in the earth’s atmosphere at least one powerful, at least 40 small was, is and will be
              Also, power problems will be for at least one high-power laser, at least for 40 medium
              And power supplies have changed.
              Have you heard about supercapacitors?

              Ionistre is not a power source. And yes, ionistors appeared in the 80s of the last century, until now there are not enough capacious batteries for high power lasers on their basis, or 40 average lasers
            8. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 10 June 2019 12: 59
              +1
              Okay. In Russia, as usual, a long stage of denial. And then the long stage of the dogon, gone ahead. Although, with Peresvet something stirred.
              Finish our discussion. thank drinks
            9. armata_armata
              armata_armata 10 June 2019 13: 07
              0
              Okay. In Russia, as usual, a long stage of denial. And then the long stage of the dogon, gone ahead. Although, with Peresvet something stirred.

              Relight, only a situational weapon, the destruction of UAVs on which it is very a pity to waste a precious rocket, no more ... Yes, and its usefulness is questionable, as are analogs
              The Russian Federation must catch up with real weapons, and not engage in illusory laser weapons or railguns
              Finish our discussion. thank

              As you wish
            10. Shopping Mall
              10 June 2019 19: 00
              0
              Quote: armata_armata
              Okay. In Russia, as usual, a long stage of denial. And then the long stage of the dogon, gone ahead. Although, with Peresvet something stirred.

              Relight, only a situational weapon, the destruction of UAVs on which it is very a pity to waste a precious rocket, no more ... Yes, and its usefulness is questionable, as are analogs
              The Russian Federation must catch up with real weapons, and not engage in illusory laser weapons or railguns
              Finish our discussion. thank

              As you wish


              This huge fool on several machines is definitely not for small UAVs. Rather, slaughter satellites. Shoot down a UAV is a laser on an BTR Stryker (photo in the article).
  13. Shopping Mall
    10 June 2019 18: 58
    0
    Quote: armata_armata
    Laser in armored vehicles will be accurate. And in our army - one of the first. I do not know, in Merkava or one of the new BMP. This will be a tactical laser replacing one of the machine guns. Noiselessness and instantaneous impact on unarmored targets covers any shortcomings.

    You were late for years on 30, it was then that the USSR and the United States engaged in laser weapons in a dense manner and made a great many installations on tanks and BMPs and machines, only one small one, but they all did not stand up, for quite objective reasons.


    Then a completely different type of lasers was developed - chemical, gas (these are the ones that are powerful). Inconvenient to use, with the need to carry components, sometimes toxic. Guidance systems were much worse.

    Now everything is different - solid-state and high-efficiency fiber lasers.
  • Romka47
    Romka47 10 June 2019 15: 16
    -1
    It is also not a panacea for the thermal imager, it set fire to 100 meters behind tires (yes, everything will burn there in battle), and the tepak has gone blind, and even more so here about the near future (lasers, etc.), heat-absorbing suits are not a problem already have a principle.
  • voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 9 June 2019 20: 07
    +4
    The laser is replacing the tank machine gun. Work on
    unarmored targets. Silent and instant
    actions.
    1. armata_armata
      armata_armata 9 June 2019 20: 15
      -2
      The laser is replacing the tank machine gun. Work on
      unarmored targets. Silent and instant
      actions.

      Then in what century Palestine was lucky, we will watch how your tanks will shoot back in a dust storm ..
      1. Archon
        Archon 9 June 2019 20: 47
        +1
        And is it worth them to fight in the deserts? There are normal terrain and urban conditions with asphalt. Perhaps the wearing of smoke bombs will become mandatory, everyone will disappear in smoke like a ninja. Perhaps the use of vapes will also become mandatory.
    2. cat Rusich
      cat Rusich 10 June 2019 22: 53
      -1
      ,, Recalled ,, Soviet LASER pistol? How to determine the defeat ,, target ,, laser? Example - one optical sight, without a person, lies and is struck by a laser ,, machine gun ,, how to determine ,, defeat ,, of an optical target? Question - will a glass BOTTLE be perceived as an “optical target”? Perhaps, the laser machine gun will have manual guidance (a person looks where the enemy is and leads there). There are many questions - are there any answers? ... hi
  • DimanC
    DimanC 9 June 2019 19: 53
    -2
    At the expense of the laser in unprotected places - here it also depends on the time of exposure. Here you are not cutting metal when the laser melts, and the material makes a stream of air. One of the most difficult tasks under laser exposure is the appearance of plasma, the appearance of smoke, and so on. with the destruction of the material. All this greatly absorbs laser radiation and reduces the effectiveness of exposure.
    1. Shopping Mall
      9 June 2019 20: 43
      0
      Quote: DimanC
      At the expense of the laser in unprotected places - here it also depends on the time of exposure. Here you are not cutting metal when the laser melts, and the material makes a stream of air. One of the most difficult tasks under laser exposure is the appearance of plasma, the appearance of smoke, and so on. with the destruction of the material. All this greatly absorbs laser radiation and reduces the effectiveness of exposure.


      So yes, but man is very gentle. If a 5 kW laser can cut steel 25 mm thick with a cutting speed of 0,6 m per minute (even if it stops), then what will it do with the neck or face, even with 100-500 meters, with a loss of half the power?



      If a person is completely closed, then this will make everything very difficult. But this is mentioned, such suits will be very expensive. And their mass and dimensions will turn a person into a kind of armored vehicles, i.e. reduce its mobility and visibility.
      1. DimanC
        DimanC 10 June 2019 05: 36
        0
        The cutting speed of steel is also determined by the air supply - in order to carry out the melt (which the laser, in fact, creates). They are also good at damaging rockets - because the incoming air stream will also carry the melt. Man in this sense is a motionless target. The ablation effect will work here, that is, heating, tissue coagulation, tissue evaporation (as far as I know, combat lasers are precisely IR lasers, so IR ablation should be considered). And all this in layers, layer by layer. The laser beam is not a bullet, it penetrates to the penetration depth (determined by the wavelength and absorption coefficient on it), evaporates, then it penetrates further, evaporates ... Therefore, in order to incapacitate a person, it is necessary to apply a very solid power density on one specific area of ​​the body. And wait for a while. During this time, a signal will have time to spread through the human body that it is being fried, it will begin to writhe, twirl. That is, it will change the point of application of the beam. And we must start all over again. Another question is that due to the divergence of the beam, the spot on the target will be such that, for example, the entire physiognomy can be hit. But such a burn will immediately take the soldier out of the battle. The only question that I have no immediate answer to is what power density is required for a quick burn of the human body, you need to search the Internet ...
        Comparison with technological laser systems is not entirely correct, because there the laser only warms, and the material is carried out by a stream of air. This will not work in battle.
        1. Shopping Mall
          10 June 2019 19: 07
          0
          Quote: DimanC
          ... Comparison with technological laser installations is not entirely correct, because there the laser only heats, and the material is carried away by a stream of air. In battle, this will not work.


          If we talk about armor or other protection, then yes. But the person is liquid, boils, bursts. When cut with a laser scalpel, it is unlikely that the "material" is blown out. To cut soft tissue, 30-100 watts are enough. Those. if we assume that at a distance of 1 km, a 10 kW laser will lose half the power (which is unlikely), well, let's say fog + smoke, then 5 kW will fall on the unprotected surfaces of the body. In my opinion, that's all.
  • Archon
    Archon 9 June 2019 20: 42
    +1
    It is curious that the laser beam ionizes the air in its path and creates a “path” of increased conductivity, which means that it will be possible to light up the enemy.
    1. Shopping Mall
      9 June 2019 21: 20
      +1
      Quote: Archon
      It is curious that the laser beam ionizes the air in its path and creates a “path” of increased conductivity, which means that it will be possible to light up the enemy.


      I read about this possibility in the Junior Technique, or in the Youth Technique, and she impressed me a lot, but unfortunately such a channel (continuous) can only be obtained in laboratory conditions and of limited length (meters - tens of meters). at least for now.
      1. riwas
        riwas 10 June 2019 04: 55
        +2
        In Tekhnika-Molodezh, to intercept missiles.
        1. Shopping Mall
          10 June 2019 19: 08
          +1
          Quote: riwas
          In Tekhnika-Molodezh, to intercept missiles.


          I just came across an article about civilian use, something like a laser lightning rod, but I immediately had another use case in my head hi
    2. cat Rusich
      cat Rusich 10 June 2019 22: 21
      -1
      ,, lightning ,, in the enemy - how much electricity do you need? what
  • bk0010
    bk0010 9 June 2019 21: 07
    +1
    The author forgot about: 1) Nuclear strike 2) Artillery barrage or other means of processing the front edge 3) Shrapnel umbrella 4) "Friend's help" (both a tank walking alongside and an infantry fighting vehicle walking behind).
    The author, it seems, is considering counterguerrilla operations, but the use of tanks in them is doubtful, if they are being conducted, it is better to slap MPA from large trucks with cheap civilian surveillance systems, and save the tank’s life.
    1. lucul
      lucul 9 June 2019 22: 36
      -2
      The author, it seems, is considering counterguerrilla operations, but the use of tanks in them is doubtful, if they are being conducted, it is better to slap MPA from large trucks with cheap civilian surveillance systems, and save the tank’s life.

      And BMP and armored personnel carriers will also cope with this, if they are properly modernized.
      1. bk0010
        bk0010 9 June 2019 23: 24
        +1
        Duc, of course, they will cope, there are no questions, but how much will they cost. What's the trick here? MRAP should not drive off-road, therefore, armor can be hung on it without making a military chassis and special. engine. MRAP does not need to move under the "mushrooms" or spend several days in the winter in the field - you can use civil (hunting or security) observation equipment and other electronics. MRAP can be refueled with regular gasoline, repaired in ordinary workshops. And there are many more advantages of unification with civilian equipment, which, as I hope, will radically reduce the price of MRAP and its operating hours. And that means - to saturate them all the units that need armored vehicles or a sea of ​​fire to complete their tasks and at the same time, not to leave the country without pants or without tanks (as a result of developing their resource for performing non-core tasks).
    2. Shopping Mall
      10 June 2019 19: 17
      0
      Quote: bk0010
      The author has forgotten about: 1) Nuclear strike 2) Artillery fire shaft or other means of processing the leading edge 3) Shrapnel umbrella


      This is not always possible for political or military reasons. And if the enemy suddenly seized our city, fortified itself in it, strike on it with nuclear weapons or smash it into dust in artillery?

      Quote: bk0010
      4) "Help of a friend" (both a tank walking alongside and an infantry fighting vehicle coming from behind).


      The interaction of combat units is the most important thing, but this does not negate the fact that it is necessary to increase the capabilities of each combat unit.

      Quote: bk0010
      The author seems to be considering counter-guerrilla actions, but in them the use of tanks is in doubt.


      Some scenarios of high-tech combat and look like a high-intensity guerrilla war, only instead of guerrillas are not bearded shepherds with homemade RPGs, but dispersed special forces units with powerful weapons supplied with UAV-stealth missiles, abandoned container installations of missiles. Those. no concentrated armies, fronts, etc.

      Quote: bk0010
      it is better to slap MPGs from big trucks with cheap civilian surveillance systems, and save the resource of tanks.


      Better keep your soldiers. Which of course does not exclude the use of civilian components, industrial solutions, for example, which sometimes overtake the development of the military.
      1. bk0010
        bk0010 10 June 2019 22: 09
        0
        Quote: AVM
        This is not always possible for political or military reasons.
        Art. a strike is impossible, but a tank (with a 125-mm cannon) is possible. It is strange.
        Quote: AVM
        Better keep your soldiers.
        Exactly. What will save more soldiers in the battle against the enemy infantry: 4 tank or 1 tank (for destruction of the subsidiaries and nuclear installations, the price of 120 million rubles) and 15 MRPA based on 4-host Kamaz (4.5 - 8 million rubles without armor, weapons and communications, laying the growth prices up to 24 million rubles), the MPs are holding up to 12.7 inclusive, each carries 4 turrets with CPVT and AGS and (to dream that way) a folding 82-mm mortar. 60 (minimum) of the observation channels and the defeat channels, the possibility of hitting the enemy at a distance inaccessible to him (CPVT taxis!).
        1. Shopping Mall
          10 June 2019 22: 54
          0
          Quote: bk0010
          Quote: AVM
          This is not always possible for political or military reasons.
          Art. a strike is impossible, but a tank (with a 125-mm cannon) is possible. It is strange.


          The tank still will not destroy all the buildings in a row, but it can suppress a firing point pointwise.

          Quote: bk0010
          Quote: AVM
          Better keep your soldiers.
          Exactly. What will save more soldiers in the battle against the enemy infantry: 4 tank or 1 tank (for destruction of the subsidiaries and nuclear installations, the price of 120 million rubles) and 15 MRPA based on 4-host Kamaz (4.5 - 8 million rubles without armor, weapons and communications, laying the growth prices up to 24 million rubles), the MPs are holding up to 12.7 inclusive, each carries 4 turrets with CPVT and AGS and (to dream that way) a folding 82-mm mortar. 60 (minimum) of the observation channels and the defeat channels, the possibility of hitting the enemy at a distance inaccessible to him (CPVT taxis!).


          An MRP is not a battlefield weapon, one shot from an RPG or an ATGM and there will be such a mass grave that the BMP will envy. The only advantage is the high location of the base, can help with the undermining. But most likely heavy BMP with mine booking and optimized bottom construction will benefit here.

          By the way, earlier similar thoughts were about TBMP - something like T-15 with four compact DUMV machine gun 7,62 or 12,7 + AGS-30, which could be controlled from inside the 4 operator from the landing compartment.
  • riwas
    riwas 10 June 2019 04: 48
    +1
    The speed of guidance can be increased if you use a variable speed of guidance - first, the movement with positive acceleration, and then with negative. The computer calculates the motion parameters based on the moments of inertia and rotation angles.
  • riwas
    riwas 10 June 2019 04: 52
    +1
    And if not use a laser against infantry as anti-human?
    1. Shopping Mall
      10 June 2019 19: 18
      +1
      Quote: riwas
      And if not use a laser against infantry as anti-human?


      Ban on systems only specially intended for glare. If this random result is not forbidden, for laser systems this is of course possible, and certainly not good, but with an increase in the power of lasers there will be few such cases, mostly it will be fatal.
  • Graz
    Graz 10 June 2019 05: 13
    +1
    assault equipment will be unmanned in the future, for vehicles with crew, most likely, if it remains, then only the support role, that is, lines 2 and 3
  • riwas
    riwas 10 June 2019 07: 07
    0
    About protection from laser radiation.
    Scientists have created a light variety of foam from hollow metal spheres. With a weight of just half the size of conventional steel armor, the new material - the so-called composite metal foam (CMF) - also effectively protects against projectiles. He is able to literally destroy a medium-caliber bullet that has fallen into it, to protect the target from hitting cumulative and explosive cartridges, and besides, it perfectly withstands thermal effects and blocks some types of radiation.
    https://www.popmech.ru/science/news-486102-sozdana-superlegkaya-bronya-iz-poristogo-metalla-neveroyatnoy-prochnosti/
    1. Shopping Mall
      10 June 2019 19: 20
      +1
      Quote: riwas
      About protection from laser radiation.
      Scientists have created a light variety of foam from hollow metal spheres. With a weight of just half the size of conventional steel armor, the new material - the so-called composite metal foam (CMF) - also effectively protects against projectiles. He is able to literally destroy a medium-caliber bullet that has fallen into it, to protect the target from hitting cumulative and explosive cartridges, and besides, it perfectly withstands thermal effects and blocks some types of radiation.
      https://www.popmech.ru/science/news-486102-sozdana-superlegkaya-bronya-iz-poristogo-metalla-neveroyatnoy-prochnosti/


      Well, this is rather an element of armor to protect against lasers using other solutions - https://topwar.ru/156366-protivostojat-svetu-zaschita-ot-lazernogo-oruzhija-chast-5.html. Armor BTR and Tanks lasers do not threaten.
  • yehat
    yehat 10 June 2019 12: 36
    -1
    Quote: tank-master
    "Accurate aiming speed is needed in order to aim with stupid joysticks and other joysticks." - so far no one has suggested anything better .. and you as well.

    Have you seen how the cannon is aimed at helicopters?
    where are the joysticks?
    Personally, I believe that combined control is needed - the areas of guidance are crude (manual or otherwise)
    and accurate, already through subtle guidance systems like helmet-mounted sights.
  • Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul 10 June 2019 13: 05
    0
    What I think is that those who are sitting in armored vehicles are blind and deaf to see an infantryman with an RPG at a distance of a shot right up to the shot.

    Or how?

    hi
    1. Shopping Mall
      10 June 2019 19: 21
      +1
      Quote: Horse, people and soul
      What I think is that those who are sitting in armored vehicles are blind and deaf to see an infantryman with an RPG at a distance of a shot right up to the shot.

      Or how?

      hi


      So far, yes.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 10 June 2019 19: 31
        +1
        We need a "glass cockpit" - a matrix of high-resolution high-resolution cameras and thermal imaging cameras that transmit a computer-processed image on a panel of screens around the perimeter of the fighting compartment.

        The computer processes the summary image of the matrix of cameras, determines the type of targets, marks them according to the type, distance and sequence of the threat level. The crew only needs to poke on the screen at the marked target, and the computer itself will choose the optimal weapon for hitting the target. Or you can turn on the fully automatic mode and enjoy a cup of freshly brewed coffee. Joke. About coffee.

        All technology is. Nothing fantastic. Just put everything together.

        hi
        1. Shopping Mall
          10 June 2019 19: 45
          +1
          Quote: Horse, people and soul
          We need a "glass cockpit" - a matrix of high-resolution high-resolution cameras and thermal imaging cameras that transmit a computer-processed image on a panel of screens around the perimeter of the fighting compartment.

          The computer processes the summary image of the matrix of cameras, determines the type of targets, marks them according to the type, distance and sequence of the threat level. The crew only needs to poke on the screen at the marked target, and the computer itself will choose the optimal weapon for hitting the target. Or you can turn on the fully automatic mode and enjoy a cup of freshly brewed coffee. Joke. About coffee.

          All technology is. Nothing fantastic. Just put everything together.

          hi


          So.
        2. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 10 June 2019 23: 07
          0
          Already connected. In the tank Merkava-4. All video cameras around the tank
          displayed panoramic on the screens of the driver and commander.
  • yehat
    yehat 10 June 2019 14: 09
    -1
    Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
    Or how?

    In the 3 BMPT, the crewmembers are directly involved in observing about the 100 degree focus in front of the car + there are a lot of circular viewing tools, often duplicated, and in the tank - only one looks around and he has other responsibilities.
    Therefore, it is precisely in terms of reaction to infantry that the BMPT is much better than the conventional t-72.
    but here’s the way to react - she’s mainly machine guns, 2 small-caliber guns and that’s all.
    the rest is anti-tank.
    And than to smoke infantry, if it’s not on the parade ground in front of the barracks, the BMPT seems to me to have much shortage of funds.
    1. Shopping Mall
      10 June 2019 19: 22
      +1
      Quote: yehat
      Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
      Or how?

      In the 3 BMPT, the crewmembers are directly involved in observing about the 100 degree focus in front of the car + there are a lot of circular viewing tools, often duplicated, and in the tank - only one looks around and he has other responsibilities.


      In BMPT, the same 3 crew member as in the tank - the driver, gunner and commander.
  • Evil Booth
    Evil Booth 10 June 2019 17: 43
    0
    Blasted at speed ATGM 300-600. Further simply unread nonsense. So I ran, about lasers and stuff, dumb tracing pinjoskih stealth and other Labuda.
    1. Shopping Mall
      10 June 2019 19: 23
      0
      Quote: Evil Booth
      Blasted at speed ATGM 300-600. Further simply unread nonsense. So I ran, about lasers and stuff, dumb tracing pinjoskih stealth and other Labuda.


      I'm glad for your sense of humor, but what's wrong with the speed of the ATGM?
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 10 June 2019 20: 18
        0
        Is not ATGM subsonic?

        The speed of sound in the air somewhere 330 m / s. The speed of 600 m / s is supersonic already.

        hi
        1. Shopping Mall
          10 June 2019 20: 24
          +1
          Quote: Horse, people and soul
          Is not ATGM subsonic?

          The speed of sound in the air somewhere 330 m / s. The speed of 600 m / s is supersonic already.

          hi


          In principle, if we talk about the ATGM is the infantry, then yes, even at Cornet, the rocket speed is about 310 m / s, for the rest it is even less. Supersonic so far only on technology. Most likely it is technically possible to realize this for infantry, but there is no special point. For KAZ, it is most likely that 600 m / s, that 300 m / s is all the same, and they are trying to protect the operator not with the speed of flight, but with the mode fired and forgot.

          Another issue is the creation of hypersonic ATGM. In this case, even the KAZ will have to strain and the cumulative warhead can be replaced with scrap as in BOPS, and even with pointing at 2000 there are fewer problems, since the hypersonic ATGM (more than 1500 m / s) will fly that distance in 2 with (taking into account overclocking) .
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 10 June 2019 20: 29
            0
            It seems that you very correctly noticed tendencies. And the action on the target, and the probability of hitting, and the safety of the calculation - the hypersonic ATGM complex could be beyond competition. The disposable PU container for hypersonic ATGM can also be remotely controlled.

            It remains to wait for the news.

            hi
            1. bk0010
              bk0010 10 June 2019 21: 56
              0
              With a 90% probability, there will be either hypersound or ATGM (guided missile). Combine will not work. Yes, just imagine the overloads that you need to withstand in order to develop a speed of 1.5-5M at a distance of up to a target (say) 8 km. Just to remind you: even the coolest scrap flies at a speed of less than 2km / s (6M).
              1. Horse, people and soul
                Horse, people and soul 10 June 2019 22: 08
                0
                Sometimes a jump in technology development, unexpected for everyone, occurs, opening another impossible door to the spiral of technological progress.

                hi
  • cat Rusich
    cat Rusich 10 June 2019 22: 16
    -1
    The hunt for ,, Mammoth ,, - an organized, armed group of ,, hunters ,, will fill up the lonely ,, mammoth ,,. The herd ,, mammoths ,, - trample ,, crowd, people. Old ,, good ,, hedgehogs on tank dangerous directions? Anti-tank DOM? Escarp? Minefields, necessarily under the supervision of ,, protection ,,? The laser on the tank - against the infantry - the laser in the infantry against the tank. Who will blind anyone first? At one time (Middle Ages ...) ,, pig ,, from the cavalry of the knights did not long rule on the battlefield. There is no ode of joy in the article about Javelins. One gets the impression that a modern tank is a platform for self-defense against infantry. soldier
  • bk0010
    bk0010 10 June 2019 23: 13
    0
    Quote: AVM
    Mrap is not a battlefield weapon
    I totally agree! But to cover the columns - that’s it.
    Quote: AVM
    , one shot from an RPG or ATGM and there will be such a mass grave that the BMP will envy.
    And here I do not agree. If the howling does not break through the armor (only a cumulative jet will pass inside, this is quite possible to achieve), then the crew will have more chances of survival than the tankers: there is a lot of space (there are less chances that it will hurt), there are no shells, there are no huge cartridges with gunpowder, in places where ammunition is stored, it is possible to organize knockout panels or, in general, "wet" storage.
    Quote: AVM
    But most likely heavy infantry fighting vehicles with anti-mine armor and an optimized bottom design will win here.
    I think TBMP is a harmful concept: it provokes infantry to go where tank armor is required for survival. First, adapt the area with artillery and aircraft to an acceptable level, and then carry people. It is not for nothing that the Jews have heavy armored personnel carriers based on tanks, but no heavy armored personnel carriers.
    1. Shopping Mall
      11 June 2019 17: 52
      0
      Quote: bk0010
      No wonder the Jews have heavy armored personnel carriers based on tanks, but there are no heavy infantry fighting vehicles.


      Well, the Jews have an APC more in name. In fact, most likely all the same BPM, a weak weapon module was most likely installed for reasons of increasing the capacity of the troop compartment. As far as we know, they are going to put a DUMV on it with a 30 mm cannon. And their tanks have "a little BMP", with their compartment for the infantry ...