Project VT1. Tank nicknamed "The Leopard 3"

67
Creating a new military equipment is simply unthinkable without the introduction of new ideas. Most often - this requires large-scale production - you have to do with relatively simple innovations that can not significantly complicate the design. However, sometimes as an experiment, designers and the military still decide on serious amendments to classical solutions and create unique systems. One of them was an experimental pilot tank VT1 or Leopard 3 (unofficial name), developed in Germany in the seventies of the last century.

The first prototype of Leopard-3 VT1-2


Along with the development of a new tank Leopard 2 began work on the topic of a combat vehicle designed for the longer term. In the very beginning of the 70s, the company Maschinenbau Kiel (MaK) proactively began to consider the prospects of modern tanks. It was understood that the machine under development would be ready by the time its Leopard 2 peer began to become obsolete. In the analysis of existing designs, MaK analysts and engineers concluded that the existing tank layout with a turret and only one gun was no longer able to provide the required fire indicators. In addition to this, the success of the Swedish turretless Strv 103 tank, in which it was possible to combine sufficient firepower (a 105-mm gun) and good performance, maneuverability and protection, was reflected. True, the rigid fixing of the gun required significantly complicating the suspension: vertical aiming was carried out by skewing the entire body. German engineers decided to adopt the idea of ​​a tank without a tower, but at the same time not to be wiser with a cannon tip. At the same time, a group of engineers led by Wolfgang Matos came to the conclusion that it was necessary to install two guns on a promising tank at once. According to the designers, to achieve a significant increase in combat qualities by other means was not possible.

An experimental tank MBT-70 was chosen as the basis for the new experimental design. For mass production of this armored car was not good, but liked for use in the experimental work on the topic VT1. In accordance with the reckless layout of the future tank, the chassis was shortened, due to which, instead of six road wheels, there were only five onboard. The hydropneumatic suspension was modified accordingly. The native Continental AVCR-1100-3 diesel engine of the MBT-70 tank was replaced with the MV873-500 diesel engine. The new engine could constantly work, giving out a power of one and a half thousand horsepower, and within a short time “accelerate” to 2175 hp. In this emergency mode, the 38-ton tank had a power density over 50 HP. per ton of weight. This is about twice as high as most modern tanks. One of the reasons for the high power density was the relatively small mass of the structure. Given the experimental nature of the project, MaK engineers made experienced tanks not from special armored steel, but from lighter “conventional” grades. This saved about 2-4 tons of weight. Armored cabin was installed on the modified chassis of the MBT-70 tank. It is noteworthy that with a relatively large internal volume, it had not too large dimensions. The overall height of the VT1 was a little over two meters, which was more than centimeters smaller on the 80 of the original MBT-70.



In 1972, the assembly of the first prototypes of the VT1 tank was completed. The first copy with the index VT1-1 equipped with two 105-millimeter rifled guns L7. Both guns had automatic loaders. The tank VT1-2, in turn, received 120-mm smooth-bore guns Rh-120. However, only one gun was equipped with an automatic loader. The fact is that during the development of a new tank, designers Maschinenbau Kiel could not produce a mirror version of this unit. Therefore, one gun was charged automatically, and the crews and shells were fed manually into the second one. An interesting design of gun mounts on the VT1-1 and VT1-2 tanks. On both machines, the guns had the possibility of only vertical guidance. Moving guns in the horizontal plane was not provided. In addition, they were installed with a small vanishing angle: the aiming lines intersected at a distance of 1500 meters.

Tests of the two prototypes continued until the 1976 year. During this time, tanks drove thousands of kilometers over the range and fired hundreds of shots. First of all, it became clear that VT1, due to its very concept, is not capable of firing more or less accurate fire on the move. When firing from a single weapon, the recoil slightly turned the tank around a vertical axis, which it was necessary to fend off by turning the entire tank. This problem was only aggravated by the absence of sights from the driver. Periscopic sights Carl Zeiss PERI R12 were only the commander and gunner. Naturally, in combination with the lack of a horizontal aiming of guns, this greatly hampered the firing. In addition, restrictions on the strength of the design is not allowed to simultaneously shoot from both guns. Thus, the only way to somehow eliminate the turn of the tank when firing was "prohibited" by the design itself. It is noteworthy that in the above-mentioned Swedish tank Strv 103, the aiming was performed by the driver. To do this, he had a scope and body tilt controls.

The impossibility of stable shooting on the fly has caused many doubts about the prospects of the design. But in defense of the tank, accuracy was said when firing from the spot and from short stops. The standard NATO target for tankers (size 2,3х2,3 meters) from a distance of a kilometer was struck with a probability of about 90%. For the mid-seventies, this was considered a very good indicator. In addition, two guns with automatic loaders significantly increased the rate of fire of the tank. However, in 1976, the VT1 project was abandoned. Leopard 2 went into service, and the need for a two-gun combat vehicle disappeared for a while.

At the beginning of the 80-s many responsible persons in the field of German tank building and the command of the ground forces became supporters of the idea that the second model adopted by the Leopard had no prospects. In their opinion, this tank, although it was modern and almost the best in the world, was too closely connected with previous combat vehicles and, as a result, did not have sufficient potential in terms of modernization. How later will show story, they were wrong. But at the beginning of 80's project VT1, as the most unusual and interesting, was resumed. It was at this time that the unofficial nickname Leopard 3 finally got behind him. In connection with the problems with the alternate firing of two guns, the MaK designers, when creating a new version of the VT1 (GVT), increased the width of the hull. In addition, the guns were moved closer to the center of the cabin, which resulted in a change in the shape of the latter. As a result of these improvements, it was possible to achieve a reduction in the unfolding moment when firing. But, unfortunately, the two new experimental tanks in their fighting qualities could not come close to the existing equipment. Finally, the leadership of the Bundeswehr came to the conclusion that it was necessary to continue upgrading the Leopard 2 tank. Because of this, by the middle of 80, the GVT project was first suspended and then closed.

In fact, VT1 and GVT were not tanks, but anti-tank self-propelled artillery mounts, and not the most successful ones. An interesting idea with two guns in practice turned out to be low stability while moving and the inability to shoot while on the move. Also on the fate of the project affected its positioning. VT1, actually being a tank destroyer, was initially submitted as a new tank. Naturally, the design of the machine did not allow to fully comply with the generally accepted requirements for the latter, and it seems that no one began to promote it as an anti-tank self-propelled gun. Therefore, the development of Maschinenbau Kiel could not become a serial tank or SPG.

Project VT1. Tank nicknamed "The Leopard 3"
GVT-04 Double-Barreled Tank


On the materials of the sites:
http://otvaga2004.narod.ru/
http://military.cz/
http://raigap.livejournal.com/
http://whq-forum.de/
http://btvt.narod.ru/
67 comments
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  1. Nasty
    +9
    25 June 2012 09: 13
    The designer, apparently in childhood, hit his head on the frontal armor of Sturmtigr
    1. Tirpitz
      +3
      25 June 2012 11: 01
      The USSR also had a huge number of dead-end developments, as in any other country in the world.
      Quote: Nadyt
      The designer, apparently in childhood, hit his head on the frontal armor of Sturmtigr

      What do you mean by that?
      1. AER_69
        +6
        25 June 2012 16: 33
        He meant two guns. It’s like shooting an infantryman from two grenade launchers.
        1. 0
          29 June 2012 15: 28
          Have you heard about the Coalition-SV? I don’t see anything strange in this.
  2. +5
    25 June 2012 09: 55
    wink And more than once
  3. +6
    25 June 2012 10: 28
    But ... belay I have no words. Only emotions...
    No, well, it is clear that the Swedes who had not fought in World War II can afford to indulge and experiment by giving out on the mountain samples of all kinds of "wunder tanks" like that reckless one in which the mechanic drive performs the functions of a gunner ... where there is no need to complicate a priori ...
    But to the Germans ... Pragmatists and pedants to the marrow ... Yes, this ... Yes, they called it a tank ... Guderian probably turned over in his grave ...
  4. Svistoplyaskov
    +14
    25 June 2012 10: 33
    That's how anyone can always offend an artist! But what a flight of design thought!

    http://rnns.ru/105932-leopard-3.html
    1. +6
      25 June 2012 20: 54
      Alas and alas again ... Born to crawl can not fly (well, unless you cut a good magic stump in his ass) ... Yes, and there was no design thought as such, initially and in principle. In essence, all this art is nothing more than a two-gun version of the self-propelled guns of the Second World War ... That's all the "know-how" ...
    2. Alf
      +4
      25 June 2012 22: 44
      It was this flight that destroyed them. Actually, "Iron Kaput".
  5. Kibb
    +2
    25 June 2012 11: 08
    Hmm, I don’t understand two single-caliber guns in the tank, why?
    1. +5
      25 June 2012 11: 47
      2 guns in the tank, as I understand it, to increase the rate of fire and increase the likelihood of hitting a target. But why the guns were not placed in a single mask in the center - this is a good question.
      1. Kibb
        +2
        25 June 2012 11: 58
        Here's how you imagine it? To increase the rate of fire? The tank fires direct fire, I saw, but there it got or not
      2. +1
        25 June 2012 12: 37
        Guns butt not put because of the size of the automatic loader.
        1. +1
          25 June 2012 18: 05
          I'm not on the armored part, so maybe I'm asking stupid questions. Here the question is what minimum distance can bring the guns together, given the dimensions of the shutters and automatic loaders. You can also try placing one trunk over another.
          1. +2
            25 June 2012 19: 04
            And who knows ... Cuts or layout drawings of this shushpantser are not yet freely available. It seems that the later prototypes are as close as possible.
    2. Alf
      +3
      25 June 2012 22: 48
      Apparently, for the first time in their life, German tank builders saw westerns in which the hero fired from two colts at once. There are also two Colts, the caliber is the same, the guidance and target designation system is also one. That's inspired.
  6. George IV
    +8
    25 June 2012 11: 34
    two more of these trunks behind and then the victory would be complete!
  7. +6
    25 June 2012 12: 38
    I hate it when they call tanks without turret self-propelled guns. There is a classification system, why confuse! This also applies to the Swedish "tank".
    1. AER_69
      +2
      25 June 2012 16: 36
      In "World of Tanks" it is the same with American tanks. Some players even seriously believe that these are anti-tank SPGs, just with turrets. laughing
    2. +3
      25 June 2012 21: 00
      Bravo, dear UI-Spb! good I fully and fully support you! Yes
  8. Axel
    +4
    25 June 2012 13: 37
    The gun on the right is convenient to load for the right-hander, and the left-hander is needed?
  9. berdichev
    +3
    25 June 2012 14: 39
    Another success of the Russian intelligence service for the introduction of saboteurs in the military-industrial complex of NATO)))
  10. +2
    25 June 2012 15: 02
    The idea may be good, the logic is clear - one cannon is good, two are even better. True, 2 identical trunks, if it is impossible to shoot at once, is a dubious undertaking. If they were "paired", preferably in the horizon. plane, and they would have taken all this garbage into an uninhabited tower, it would still turn out garbage))))))
  11. Prohor
    +4
    25 June 2012 15: 55
    And why is such a shameful accuracy: "a standard NATO target for tankers (size 2,3x2,3 meters) was struck from a distance of a kilometer with a probability of about 90%"?
    In World War II, tanks were shot better than an example:
    "Accuracy of combat of the 122-mm D-25T cannon was at least not inferior to foreign guns - the average deviation of a 122-mm armor-piercing projectile from the aiming point when firing from a standstill at a distance of 1 km was 170 mm vertically and 270 mm horizontally. Soviet tests 88- mm gun KwK 43 under the same conditions gave a deflection of 260 mm vertically and 210 mm horizontally "
    1. +1
      25 June 2012 21: 29
      The probability of defeat and accuracy are two different things. With the indicated (and any other) accuracy, the probability of defeat for a gun crew that does not have firing practice will be 0%.
    2. Alf
      +3
      25 June 2012 22: 52
      So all the German tank superabs remained in the war. As the saying goes, "do not seek what is left, what is left."
  12. SIA
    SIA
    +4
    25 June 2012 16: 06
    They overdid something with 2 guns.
  13. +2
    25 June 2012 21: 42
    I regard the mocking remarks about the presented sample without much respect. When this development appeared, the attitude to it was very serious. The meaning of the separation of guns was incl. in the optimal layout of both the fighting compartment and the vehicle (since someone is annoyed by the term tank with such a layout) as a whole. With a mass comparable to the T-62, the power-to-weight ratio is twice as large - mobility compensated for the impossibility of firing on the move - and other tanks of that time could not actually conduct effective fire on the move. In addition, the machine was experimental, so what if, from the standpoint of modernity, someone sees significant shortcomings - should everyone follow the T-34 channel - and not a step to the side?
    1. +4
      25 June 2012 22: 06
      And let me be curious, but where are they, these very "machines" with a similar line-up? .. Where are they - put into mass production, massively put into service, sold-bought all over the world, have shown themselves in real combat? .. So where are they? .. But no! ..
      But tanks made "in the mainstream of the T-34" are produced, put into service, sold and bought and, most importantly, they are fighting. So it is practice that is the main and main indicator of the concept's viability ... wink
      For as the great compatriot of the designers of the "Leopard III" said in his immortal "Faust":
      ..."Theory, my friend, is dry. And the tree of life turns green! "...
      Perhaps it is worth listening to these words by the invested author in the mouth of Mephistopheles. For he, the devil-tempter, knew what he was talking about ... am
      1. +1
        25 June 2012 22: 21
        So without trial steps "left-right" and the T-34 will not appear ... Do you deny the designers in imagination and samples? And no one is given to know in advance what will happen. And here they experimented on the layout, on the horizontal guidance of the hull, on the alignment of the axes, on the power-to-weight ratio, made their own conclusions, established themselves in something, found something wrong - it was useful for the development of design ideas.
        1. +2
          25 June 2012 22: 57
          I would venture to suggest that the Germans understood that they could not surpass us by the number of tanks. And the threat of a "3-month march to the English Channel" was in their heads. In defense and sau are good. WWII proof.
        2. +3
          25 June 2012 23: 58
          Respected alex86, but did I really refuse my desire to experiment with anyone there? .. Yes, not at all! .. Let them get hungry for health if there is an irresistible desire in this ... If only all these experiments bring real benefits. Alas, this was not here, and never will be. Why?..
          Because the "reckless Swede" mentioned in the article from its very beginning was a completely hopeless machine. And if I understand this - not the greatest connoisseur in the field of armored vehicles, then the German tank designers (who had the experience of World War II and the conflicts that followed it!) Should have understood this from the start ... If you don't believe it, then try simulate a clash between the "Swede" (or the "Leopard III") with any of the tanks of the classic - turret configuration. Well, for example, in a company-by-company situation, when a part of the "classics" (as part of a platoon) made an exit to the flank of the "Swedes" unit ... Would you like to tell me how it will end? .. Complete defeat of the "reckless men." and with a dry account ...
          In any case, the "Leoperd-third" died and did not have time to really give birth. And no thrust-to-weight ratio helped him. That's the whole result of these experiments with axle alignment and horizontal guidance ... But the "second" has survived safely to this day, and in the A6 variant is one of the strongest tanks in the world ...
          1. 0
            26 June 2012 00: 13
            What you didn’t like the Swede is one of the most original tanks of the post-war period.
            Quote: Chicot 1
            Well, for example, in a company-by-company situation, when a part of the "classics" (as part of a platoon) made an exit to the flank of the "Swedes" unit ... Would you like to tell how it will end? .. Complete defeat of the "reckless men." and with a dry account ...


            Let it be carried out first, so that they are not detected from a distance of less than 900-1200 meters. Yes, and deployed in place it is not an hour of time. As an anti-tank weapon, for which it was developed that the Swede, that this double-barreled gun - they will work well , ---- the more so they are cheaper than the classic tank, have a much smaller silhouette, and especially the height --- all that they lacked is versatility.
            1. +3
              26 June 2012 03: 55
              Alas dear Kars, but originality was not always and is not a sign of the high combat effectiveness of military equipment ...
              As for the situation I proposed, then ... As you know, the "Swede" cannot fire on the move, only from a stop. A stationary target is more likely to be hit than a mobile or actively maneuvering target. In addition, part of the "Swedes" in any case will stop turning and stop to reflect the attack from the flank. Thus, they will inevitably substitute their board ... How will this end, I think there is no need to say ...
              The height of the "Swede" is 2,14 m. The height of the T-80 is 2,2 m ... The difference of 6 cm at your proposed distance of 900-1200 m is not significant. With all this, the "eighty" will beat on the move, without changing the course of movement or maneuvering. "Swede" will cease to stand or fidget in one place in order to carry out targeting. In addition, the gunner of a turret tank can constantly keep the target and aim while moving. The crew of the "Swede" is not able to do this ...
              I think the above arguments are more than enough ... So I personally don’t see any prospects for STRV-103, let alone Leopard-Three. Even in theory ...
              1. 0
                26 June 2012 11: 13
                Quote: Chicot 1
                As you know, the "Swede" cannot fire on the move

                From the spot, the Swede will fire more accurately using an automatic loader, and actively maneuvering the 1960-70x tank has a lower probability of defeat.
                Quote: Chicot 1
                will have to turn around and stop to repel an attack from the flank


                It’s just interesting that you imagine a tank battle on the table? How then will you make a round on the flank?
                Quote: Chicot 1
                Height "Swede" - 2,14 m. Height of T-80 - 2,2 m

                1.9 and can also be compared with armature.
                Quote: Chicot 1
                With all this, the "eighty" will beat on the move, without changing the course of movement or maneuvering. to the Swede

                To begin with, we will move away from the T-80 and replace it with the T-62, by definition they will be noticed first and before they start to beat on the move that they were not particularly recommended, they will be bombarded with a hail of shells.
                Quote: Chicot 1
                I think the above arguments are more than enough

                There are plenty of arguments, of course, the main thing is to take into account the specifics of the Swedish theater of operations and the fact that, in principle, these are fighter tanks --- Su-85 and SU-100, the absence of a tower didn’t interfere with knocking out German tigers.
                1. +3
                  26 June 2012 15: 47
                  And the discussion is already starting to like me ... smile
                  And why move away from the T-80? .. The development time, control system and armament are almost the same ... Yes, and belonging to the same class of BTT too. "Swede" is also kind of called a tank. Well, this is a kag-bae for a start ...
                  The height of 2,14 m was taken by me from a foreign source. Anglitsky. And his Kag-Bae is difficult to suspect of bias towards the "Swede" ...
                  Just wondering how the Swedes will repel an attack from the flank or (even worse!) From the rear ...
                  So after all, the turret tank will hit the target more accurately from the spot. At the same time, the gunner on it will do it faster than the mechanic drive on the "Swede" ... By the way, the automatic loader has absolutely no effect on the firing accuracy. However, you know this perfectly well without me ...
                  The SU-85 and SU-100 had a remarkable advantage over the "Swede" - vertical aiming without any problems, and the ability to immediately start moving after firing a shot. Without any time consuming returning the tank hull to its original position ...
                  And I had no intention of invading Sweden. I don’t need it for nothing ... I offer a completely neutral field, ideal for tank battles. Or will the "Swede" skate poorly there? .. Even theoretically on the table? ..
                  So whatever one may say, the ideal place for a "Swede" is firing from a stationary position. Moreover, buried in a caponier. And in this case, it turns into a banal SPG. However, this is what it is in its essence - a banal self-propelled gun with a very original and complex design. And as you know, all SUs with a felling line have already died out. The tendency is, however, - the strongest and fittest survive ... Soon the turn of the "reckless Swede" will come ...
                  1. +1
                    26 June 2012 17: 18
                    Quote: Chicot 1
                    Development time, control systems and weapons are almost the same

                    Give on adoption?
                    Strv.103 was created in 1956 — 1961 to replace the Centurion British medium tanks in the Swedish army. Serial production of the tank was carried out from 1966 to 1971
                    it roughly corresponds to the T-62
                    Quote: Chicot 1
                    Just wondering how the Swedes will repel an attack from the flank or (even worse!) From the rear ...

                    It will be developed on the spot; here, all the same, the main question is in the terrain.
                    Quote: Chicot 1
                    So after all, the turret tank will hit the target more accurately from the spot. At the same time, the gunner on it will do it faster than the mechanic drive on the "Swede" ...

                    Vryatli, you need to stop at first, stabilizers, of course, were already, but they were still far from the effectiveness of modern ones.

                    Quote: Chicot 1
                    automatic loading does not affect accuracy. However, you know this very well without me ...

                    I am glad that you have a good opinion about me --- here is more about rate of fire
                    Quote: Chicot 1
                    Without any expenditure of time to return the hull of the tank to its original position ...

                    This is not a prerequisite.
                    Quote: Chicot 1
                    ? .. Even theoretically on the table? ..

                    On the table? Interesting of course --- but the rate of fire of 15 rounds per minute and a smaller silhouette will be very telling.
                    Quote: Chicot 1
                    However, it is in essence a banal self-propelled gun with a very original and complex design

                    I never considered self-propelled guns to be commonplace, this will not reduce the effectiveness of their fire.
                    Quote: Chicot 1
                    And as you know, all SUs with felling lineup have already become extinct.

                    It is necessary to clarify --- the first self-propelled guns died out, and not so much because of the lineup, but because of the equation of characteristics of the guns of the self-propelled guns and tanks. They were competitive when the self-propelled guns had a more powerful art system compared to linear tanks - T-34- 76 = SU-85 T-34-85 = SU-100 T-55 = Su 54 but the 125 mm SPG cannon with 152 mm (PT and not assault) was already found, and missiles appeared.
                    Quote: Chicot 1
                    Soon the turn of the "crazy Swede" will come ...

                    Yes, it’s been 20 years ago.
                    1. +3
                      26 June 2012 18: 03
                      Well, God bless him. Convinced. smile I'll leave the T-80 alone. Really old for a Swede. And in terms of development time and adoption, not the T-62, but the T-64 is quite suitable. The most it will be ... wink
                      So all the same, the "Swedes" will turn around ... Thus, they will remarkably substitute the sides of the enemy attacking from the front ... By the way, about the terrain and its relief. After all, the enemy of the "Swede" will also use all this to its fullest ...
                      15 rounds per minute, this is a technical rate of fire, not practical, that is, combat. So the Swede has no particular advantages here ...
                      Banal - this is not obviously bad. The commonplace is ordinary and ordinary. And nothing more ...
                      In any case, the logging line-up has lost its demand. How not to twist ...
                      Y-yes, they really wrote off. Thank you for prompting ... And I didn't know the right word ... It turns out that I had a much better opinion of the "Swede" than he probably deserved ... I confess I googled about this. And I discovered an interesting thing! .. wink
                      He came to replace him ... "Leopard-2" ... The one that was going to be changed by the hero of this material ... Do not say, but the circle is closed ... wink

                      Well, and according to tradition, tank art from me ... Excavated in my archives ... smile Not God knows what, but quite nice ... "Crazy Swede" in person ...
                      1. 0
                        26 June 2012 18: 16
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        and T-64. The most will be

                        Well, not quite.

                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        Thus, they wonderful substitute the sides of the enemy attacking from the front


                        Well, isn’t it all turning amicably? The unit will continue to fire at attackers from the front. And again, we have not determined the terrain.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        15 rounds per minute, this is a technical rate of fire, not practical, that is, combat. So the Swede has no particular advantages here ...

                        Well, so the T-62 claims technical, and with a Swede with a rigid gun installation, the technical and practical are almost indistinguishable.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        "Leopard-2" ... The one who was going to change the hero of this material

                        It can be said to my great regret - the Swedes had their own good project of a new tank.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        "Reckless Swede" in person ...

                        The print from the box from the Trumpeter model company has long been standing on a shelf, almost the same.
                      2. +2
                        26 June 2012 19: 32
                        Again, "not quite" ... Or can I be offered the T-1950, which was already created in the early 10s? .. It's no question if the T-64 is not suitable, although the development and adoption times are almost identical ... By the way, your condition was, however ... wink
                        The fact that they will unfold is not all of a sudden, it does not matter. Moreover, in time they will not pose a real threat to the attacker from the flank (rear) of the unit. But this does not mean at all that they will not be under fire ...
                        15 shots is (I repeat and emphasize!) The technical rate of fire. I don’t think you can argue that the crew of the "Swede" is capable of making an aimed shot in 4 seconds. Precisely aimed (!!!), and not just towards the enemy ... Combat (practical) rate of fire will be no more than 7-8 rounds per minute. And according to these indicators, it will be equal to the T-64 ... Oh, yes, I suggested the T-10. Then - yes, the "Swede" will have an advantage in rate of fire by 3-4 times. There is only one problem left - to get ...
                        How, the Swedes again proposed a new "crazy Swede"? !! .. belay Horror !!! ... wassat And if so, then to the greatest happiness! .. fellow However, in any case, this tank would be unnecessarily complicated in technical terms. To complicate the mechanisms, this is the hobby of the Swedish design school ...
                        I suspected it was boxing. Although it would be much more interesting to me to find out the name of the author ... smile
                      3. 0
                        26 June 2012 20: 15
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        Again, "not quite" ...

                        Adopted by the Soviet Army in 1969 under the brand name "T-64A medium tank".

                        Soviet secret tank, if it’s fundamentally for you, I agree to take it but with an 115 mm gun. Well, it doesn’t fit at the time of development, the Swedes simply didn’t count on it, and it was adopted by the (Swedish) between 1962 and 64 and went into series in 66 . Just once everything suits my condition exactly at T-62.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        The fact that they will not unfold all of a sudden, it does not matter

                        5 shoot, 5 go round and go to the meeting. Although I just can’t imagine the maneuver you expect, why do you suppose that while the bypassing group walks around, the Swedes are sitting in the same place? In theory, while you go around the 10 Swedes they shoot the 5 T-62 attackers from the front, coordinate a simultaneous strike from two sides ---- I wish you success, especially in our .. table .. conditions.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        "Swede" is capable of making an aimed shot in 4 seconds

                        and why not? for one purpose it’s quite possible, the recoil momentum dropping the sight is almost absent, thanks to the rigid installation and recoil devices --- do not forget also that the gun itself is much more powerful than the standard L7 - which has proven itself perfectly. With the transfer of fire to another target I agree it will be a little longer.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        There is only one problem left - to get

                        There will be no particular problems with this.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        How, the Swedes again proposed a new "crazy Swede"? !! ..

                        Better Stridsvagen 2000
                      4. +2
                        26 June 2012 20: 56
                        By the way, I don’t know who the artist is, of the last ones I liked Antonis Karidis
                      5. +2
                        26 June 2012 21: 19
                        Quote: Kars
                        By the way, who is the artist

                        I threw you a video in mini spike on Javelin
                      6. +2
                        26 June 2012 22: 28
                        Great thing! good And I already have one ... bully
                        I have the art of V. Petelin from the last acquisitions. True, what kind of beast I do not understand ... It seems like "Panther", and it seems like not "Panther" ... In general, here it is ...
                      7. +2
                        26 June 2012 22: 52
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        V.Petelina

                        I have a lot of loops, but I have not seen his independent work - only as a design for the monographs of Eksmo publishing house.
                        The photo is definitely not a panther, and the Panther 2 is also not very.
                      8. porfirev
                        +2
                        28 June 2012 19: 58
                        This is VK3002DB
                      9. +1
                        29 June 2012 18: 46
                        Thank you, dear porfirev! smile Taperych would learn more about this VK3002DB in more detail ...
                      10. porfirev
                        +3
                        30 June 2012 00: 16
                        In short, it was created in parallel with the VK3002 (MAN) as an answer to the Soviet T-34. As a result, the German Armed Forces Arms Department did not choose him, but the MAN project, which went into the series as a Panther tank.
                      11. +4
                        26 June 2012 22: 17
                        If I wanted to offer 125mm, I would write the T-64A ... However, I already completely left in the 1950s by proposing the T-10 ... Sorry, but I will not offer earlier tanks. And so he gave a head start to the "Swede" in the rate of fire ...
                        Perhaps the crews of the "Swedes" should wish good luck. Moreover, I suggested sending only a platoon, and not half of the company, to the bypass maneuver ... wink
                        Nu-nu ... 4 seconds ... Well, yes ... Straight Silvio (the character of A.S. Pushkin from the short story "Shot") alone live in Sweden ... Right-word, don't tell anyone else about 4 seconds for aiming ... Stopping the car, locking the target, aiming, firing a shot. However, it will not be enough ...
                        But this is exactly what the problems arise ... That is, fifth, tenth, lead, etc. etc. (in 4 seconds!). Yes, and you yourself are under fire. Yes, and still ... And then they go into the flank ...
                        Well, even the Swedes realized that without a tower, neither here nor there ... wink And you said ... smile
                      12. -1
                        26 June 2012 22: 47
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        gave a head start to the "Swede" in the rate of fire ...
                        Perhaps the crews of the "Swedes" should wish good luck. Moreover, I suggested sending only a platoon, and not half of the company, to the bypass maneuver ...

                        Then, in principle, there is no sense at all, a more understandable option is to imitate an attack by a platoon, and the rest into coverage from two sides, but again, it is very difficult to do this even on a table.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        Do not tell the right word to anyone else about 4 seconds to aim ...

                        Yes, it’s possible at least an hour, and after the first shot only correction and no more, look how long it took for ordinary Fri WWII guns.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        Machine stop, target capture, aiming, firing.

                        Well, the Swedes are by definition, then you bypass the attack.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        And then they go into the flank ...

                        Well, this is not at the time.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        Well, even the Swedes realized that without a tower, neither here and there ... And you said

                        What did I say?
                        Quote: Kars
                        of time. As an anti-tank tool - for which it was developed that the Swede, that this double-barreled gun - they will work well, ---- the more they are cheaper than the classic tank, they have a much smaller silhouette, and especially the height --- everything that they lacked it's versatility

                        Something does not match?
                      13. +1
                        26 June 2012 23: 39
                        You know better what to do ... But I would prefer to attack from one side. For one simple reason - so as not to fall under the fire of their own tanks, so to speak from the "opposite side" ...
                        You can aim for an infinitely long time. But it's not that. The point is that there is a minimum required for aiming. And it is quite difficult to do this by being distracted by other functions or by switching from one to another. Errors will inevitably occur. And the design of the "Swede" is not very rational in this regard ...
                        "Swedes" may not stand, but they simply have to stop. In order to make an aimed shot. Otherwise, their presence on the battlefield is simply pointless ...
                        The phrase "And you said" in this case was used by me exclusively in a colloquial context, and specifically here does not carry any semantic and informative load ...
                        Everything is the same. And alas, the lack of versatility was the very weak point that put an end to such a lineup of tanks. They turned out to be untenable in comparison with tower tanks ... In principle, I spoke about this from the very beginning - the fittest and fittest survive. The main law of any selection, at least natural, at least artificial ... Reckless it did not pass ...

                        And such a small wallpaper with my "protégé" - T-64. Truth in modification "B", if I'm not mistaken ...
                      14. -1
                        26 June 2012 23: 55
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        For one simple reason - so as not to fall under the fire of their own tanks, so to speak from the "opposite side" ...


                        You poorly imagine the terrain, as well as the flatness of the fire of modern tank guns.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        And to do this is distracted by the execution of other functions or switching from one to another is quite difficult

                        Tankers are taught this
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        And the design of the "Swede" is not very rational in this regard ...

                        The same tip, only the whole hull is moving, not the tower.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        "Swedes" may not stand, but they simply have to stop. In order to make an aimed shot. Otherwise, their presence on the battlefield is simply pointless ...

                        In an ambush, the first shots can stand, and after they stopped their machine gun will allow you to shoot with a higher rate of fire.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        They turned out to be untenable in comparison with tower tanks ...

                        Vryatli, once again I repeat that just the guns reached their maximum in this period - and the snipers appeared --- if they weren’t missing, the self-propelled gun would have entered the scene with an 152 mm high-pulse gun in a stationary cabin.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        The main law of any selection, though natural, even artificial ...

                        And there was no need for reckless selection, there was a simple need. And in the case of the Swede, this terrain and the level of development of weapons technologies of the late 50's and the beginning of the 60x were also needed.
                      15. +2
                        27 June 2012 14: 12
                        Well, who didn’t like our conversation? Can you say with words or are you afraid?
                      16. +2
                        28 June 2012 19: 30
                        I'm afraid that we will never know the nickname of this hero. We also do not know his opinions. Quietman ...
                        And if it’s not a secret and not military secret, then enlighten, what kind of an interesting car in the photo is this? .. fellow
                      17. +2
                        28 June 2012 19: 22
                        I apologize for the delay. Work, business ... other business ... feel

                        Persistence by perseverance, but no one is safe from a miss. They happen. And getting a shell from your own skin is absurd and insulting to ... crying
                        Teach, I do not argue. But this increases the load on the crew. What sooner or later will start to lead to errors ...
                        Theoretically, it seems like yes. In principle, kag-be seems. Relatively of course ... But technically not. And why complicate what a priori do not need to complicate? ...
                        Ambush is a hospital. That is, in fact, the path of the "Swede" ... But the ambush towers will work no worse ...
                        If ATGMs had not appeared (this will be more accurate)? .. History does not operate with subjunctive moods. And we have what we have without any "if" ... bully
                        When the need for something disappears, something is sent to a landfill. At best, to the museum ... Dinosaurs, they also once were the masters of the planet. But to want to say about their disappearance to put it mildly does not make sense. Everything has its time. The time of the reckless is over ...

                        I told you that I start to like the discussion. And you "+" in the comments ... smile
                      18. -1
                        28 June 2012 20: 06
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        Persistence with persistence, but no one is safe from a slip

                        The shell will go into the ground, after 200-300 meters, if there is a big mistake in vertical guidance, then the shell will fly away in 4-5 km
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        What sooner or later will start to lead to errors ...

                        Dut should emphasize late to put.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        And we have what we have without any "if" ...

                        We have a decent set of experimental turretless sau caliber from 100 mm (with a barrel length of 80-110 calibers) to 152 mm
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        The time of the reckless is over ...

                        But was it?
                        It’s just that you don’t have to relate to the crazy concept, if you use it skillfully, nobody will get much from the Swede.

                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        different line-ups on a neutral field with conditions ideal for tank battles ..

                        But what happens? Well, for example, if you take a table --- then the T-62 has a lesser chance of a one-on-one collision, they’ll see it faster, the Swede’s gun is more powerful, the rate of fire is higher ---- with the T-64 it will be more difficult, that one’s much more powerful frontal armor.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        what an interesting car like that in the photo

                        T55E1 experimental tank destroyer (usa)
                      19. 0
                        26 June 2012 22: 03
                        I really apologize for getting into such a highly scholarly discussion, which I (to my pride) caused, but - since we moved away from the German and took up the Swede, when describing the tactics of the Swede it was said that he (taking into account the features of the theater of war) a place) in an ambush - like, alone (without an ensemble, single), among the pine trees on the side of the road, he doesn’t need (and ability) to maneuver - the trees are around, however; one or two shots are fired, the Swede leaves, the Soviet tank is hit, the road is locked, the other Swede continues from another position - no oncoming fights, etc. The presented version was not invented by me, but the Swedes themselves - it was emphasized - this is a feature of the Swedish theater. Therefore, the Swede lived (lives?), And for the German, the specifics of the theater of war was somewhat different, and it was a shame they could only defend themselves, nevertheless a great (without fools and irony) tank power, and therefore Leopard-2 with various sequels. ... And I always liked the shotgun ...
                      20. +1
                        26 June 2012 22: 15
                        Quote: alex86
                        he has no maneuver - trees around, however; one or two shots are fired, the Swede departs



                        What incidentally was greatly facilitated by the presence of duplication of the driver’s mechanics --- by the radio operator. That is, shuttle driving.
                      21. +3
                        28 June 2012 20: 08
                        Shot. Recharge Shot. And the RPG calculation is lost in the civilized European forest belonging to the Swedish crown. Yes, so that the bald devil himself does not find ...
                        So why did you have to fence a garden with this miracle of "hostile technology"? .. Only for that "shob bulo"? ..

                        In any case, the result is well-known - the "Swede" was replaced by "Leopard-2". The same tank, which was predicted to be replaced by the "miracle panzer" VT1, which was molded under the impression of the "Swede". Amusing? .. In my opinion - yes! The circle is closed, dear colleagues on the site ...
                      22. -1
                        28 June 2012 20: 16
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        So why, all the same, it was necessary to fence a garden with this miracle of "hostile technology"? .. Only for that "shob bulo"? ..


                        in 1945, the Germans also had dust pan-shreks and Faust cartridges - but they persistently sculpted - yagda
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        that they molded under the impression of the "Swede".
                        The Germans in the war had several options for double-barreled self-propelled guns
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        Shot. Recharge Shot. And RPG calculation

                        To do this, it was necessary to let the enemy’s tanks go 200-300 meters, and now tanks do not go without infantry, and such an ambush is almost impossible, except for guerrilla in the rear.
                      23. +2
                        28 June 2012 20: 43
                        The production of tank destroyers was dictated by the conditions of the war ... And the "Faust" from the very beginning showed their strength. So much so that the crews of our tanks cooked bed nets to the armor ...
                        But they made their panzer after the war. And the experience of the "Swede" was before my eyes ...
                        Maneuverable guerrilla warfare must be taken seriously. The experience of using BTT in Afghanistan and Chechnya speaks for itself. Alas, a bitter and deplorable experience ... A person with an RPG is more than serious ...
                        There was also the experience of the winter war with Finland, where entire units of the Suomi army were essentially guerrilla and sabotage wars. Same sniper for example. And I think that the Swedes thoroughly studied the Finnish experience ...
                      24. -1
                        28 June 2012 20: 53
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        Production of tank destroyers dictated war conditions

                        Instead of one Jagdtiger, it was possible to make 4 panzer 4, Instead of a jagdpanther, at least 2 fours.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        And the experience of the "Swede" was before my eyes
                        Actually, the emphasis here is precisely on two trunks, and not on the wheelhouse, while the trunks had a re-division of the line of fire, so they did the tank destroyer, but not the tank itself.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        The experience of using BTT in Afghanistan and Chechnya speaks for itself.

                        You can still take the experience of Iraq, but this does not apply to this topic.
                      25. +1
                        28 June 2012 22: 45
                        Perhaps this is so ... However, at that time the Germans considered it necessary to do just that, and not otherwise. However, the reasons for this also do not apply to this topic ...
                        However, it’s unreasonable to put it mildly unreasonable to exchange tank destroyers with tank destroyers (as it was planned) ... wink The practical value of crossing the aiming lines (also referred to as "parallax") in this case is highly questionable. She was good and worked quite tolerably on a number of fighters (with wing-mounted weapons) during the Second World War and the first post-war jet fighters. But that was aviation, where fire was opened at relatively short distances and from all barrels at once ... But in artillery, "double-barreled guns" are perhaps good only for creating dense fire over an area (as an example, the "Coalition" that died in a bose), and not on single movable small target. And even at a distance of one and a half keme ...
                        Citing Afghanistan and Chechnya as an example, I meant that an infantryman with an RPG is a deadly enemy for armored vehicles. The war confirmed this ...
                        And I agree with you on Iraq. If only because tanks of different release times and the same lineup collided there ...
                      26. -1
                        28 June 2012 23: 10
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        However, to change the tank destroyer fleet MBT

                        The article is most likely a mistake, in the first paragraphs Leopard 1 should appear, but it could be changed to anything. The Germans, together with the French, made the weakest tank of that period.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        where fire opened at relatively short distances and from all barrels at once

                        Parallax at 1,5 km from the place of a good chance to hit the target and completely disable it.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        The war confirmed this ...

                        Only in partisan and anti-terrorist wars, and confirmed that other methods are needed. In Iran-Iraq, Indo-Pakistan, Arab-Israeli (not counting Beirut) RPGs did not manifest themselves in any way, episodic moments.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        And I agree with you on Iraq

                        Actually, I also had in mind the partisans and their ambushes with land mines and RPGs
                      27. +2
                        29 June 2012 01: 33
                        As far as I know, the French were not involved in the development of Leopard 1. They were engaged in their "thirty". So this is a purely German development, which had a message from the idea of ​​creating a pan-European tank ... And I would not say that it is the weakest tank of its time. Just the same for its time it was a perfectly acceptable car. By the way, it is still in service in Germany itself ... And "Leopard-2" began to be developed since the late 1960s. So in the first obzatse everything seems to be kag-ba ... And then according to the narrative it turns out that the "Leoperd III" was molded as a promising machine with the expectation of replacing it ... And then the "crazy Swede" was also launched. And here the creative design thought soared to unprecedented heights ...
                        It may even hit a target ... But here is the goal ... I have very large sums on this score. Do not blame me ...
                        In all the conflicts you listed, both sides were armed with tanks, which a priori were considered the main striking force of the ground forces. When one of the parties does not have them, or they are obviously few, and for this reason they cannot play a significant role, other means are used ... In addition, in the conflicts you listed, both participants played from the attack, or counterattack. Yes, and there were resolving issues of increasingly controversial territorial. The Swedes were initially set up for defense ... By the way, they could show their originality in that by abandoning the tanks they would arm their army with light anti-tank weapons. First RPG, and there already in speed and ATGM would have arrived. It would have been cheaper and in real life it would have been much more useless ...
                        But after reading about Iraq, I immediately realized the ideal terrain for tank battles ... winked
                        However, there and M1 from grenade launchers harness ... And what is the same T-10 or even T-64 for "Gustav" at a distance of approx. 300m? .. Completely hitting target ...
                      28. -1
                        29 June 2012 10: 22
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        the French did not participate in the development of the Leopard 1.

                        The development of the tank began in 1957, together with France. However, the attempt to create a single "European" (standard) tank was unsuccessful. Practically, work in both countries was carried out in parallel, and in 1963, even before the completion of the comparative tests of German and French tanks, the FRG refused to cooperate with France. Each country began to create its own national tanks - "Leopard" in Germany and the AMX-30 in France.


                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        And I would not say that he is the weakest tank of his time

                        He is weaker than all his classmates, and is generally armored like cardboard --- even the French AMX-30 surpasses it due to the guns.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        And the "Leopard-2" began to develop since the late 1960s.

                        In 1969, but actually then it’s ridiculous to conduct simultaneous development,
                        Wherein
                        The experimental tank MBT-70 was chosen as the basis for the new experimental design.

                        And this is what Leopard 2 started designing from.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        Very big sums on my account

                        As a Swede, too, he hit targets, and he took part in the exercises for more than a year, and I’m sure that if he didn’t hit the targets (and by the way they were moving) he would not have been able to hold out until the 90s.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        By the way, they could show their originality in

                        But vet Nestal.

                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        When one of the parties does not have them, or there are obviously few of them

                        Well, this is just about the partisan, or terrorist --- and in ..normal ..wars RPG place as a means of calming the infantry from tank fear, and for local shootings with other infantry.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        And what is the same T-10 or even T-64 for "Gustav" at a distance of approx. 300m? .. Completely hitting target ...

                        But vet still need to approach this distance, in battle it is not realistic, only when the tanks begin to iron the trenches, and then if the infantry is left behind. Yes and Gustov is very difficult to destroy the tank, only to damage.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        However, there and M1 of grenade launchers harness

                        In ambushes and urban development, this fate can wait for anything — and for 9 years, about 150 damaged tanks (and not only from RPGs) are a good result.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        It would have been cheaper and in real life it would have been much more useless ...

                        No combat stability, especially when using artillery.
                      29. +1
                        29 June 2012 10: 27
                        Here is another one of my favorites (purely for no objective reason)
                      30. +2
                        29 June 2012 14: 04
                        Each has its own "sacred cows". Such for me, for example, is the Tu-95 strategist, the T-55 tank and the cruiser pr.1134B. Although by this time they were all hopelessly outdated. Alas and ah ... crying

                        P.S. Guys, minus my esteemed opponent, thank you for supporting the concept of tower tanks, but ... If you do not agree, leave comments, argue. Stupidly minus can also round oak wood ... Thank you in advance for your understanding ... smile
                      31. +2
                        29 June 2012 13: 57
                        So even from the quote you quoted, it is clear that "Leopard-1" was not a joint development, but was exclusively a German brainchild. And the fact that he safely survived many of his peers says a lot ...
                        The MVT-70 was most likely the premise for the development of Leopard-2, and not its base. And again, the "second" is a purely German brainchild ...
                        For example. RPG, namely the same Swedish "Carl Gustav" until the mid-1990s. was the main anti-tank weapon of the infantry units of the British army. And onaya is one of the strongest in the world. It is difficult to suspect the British generals of the fact that they kept the RPG in line only for psychological reassurance for their soldiers ...
                        The forest road presented to me is the ideal place for RPG crews, snipers, machine gun crews, and ATMs to be booked. The dream of a partisan and a deversant! .. And they would not have kept the Gustav in service if it hadn't hit tanks. Well, they wouldn't! ..
                        And that one and a half hundred cars is not enough? .. If you take into account only episodic (not total!) Application, then this is more than enough ...
                        Duc and Ushvedov have excellent artillery systems. Here I would give the descendants of Karl Gustav (the king, not a grenade launcher) all five points with a plus ...
                        And judging by the photo, the Swedes nevertheless used their reckless people in offensive operations in the same ranks with the infantry, which means that the oncoming tank battle was still possible. If this happened in reality, then reckless people would spin like in a frying pan! .. Yo-ho-ho !!! ... laughing
                      32. -1
                        29 June 2012 14: 11
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        was not a joint development

                        The concept and the main data were developed by the joint efforts of Germany and France, and then the incarnation diverged, but both turned out to be bad, and even the Italians were buried with their OF-40
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        MVT-70 most likely was the premise for the development of "Leopard-2",

                        Joint operation of the USA and Germany, progenitor of Abrams and Leopard 2
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        the same Swedish "Karl Gustav" until the mid-1990s. was the main anti-tank weapon of the infantry units of the British army

                        Well, and what does this mean? Nothing RPG-7 is still the main anti-inflammatory drug for half the planet.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        And it is one of the strongest in the world.

                        It is interesting, according to this logic, that the USSR should not keep RPG-7s, no recoil, easel grenade launchers — the USSR has the largest number of tanks.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        The forest road presented to me

                        And with what joy who will travel along it? Yes, even without intelligence?
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        And they would not have kept the "Gustav" in service if it did not hit tanks. Well, they wouldn't! ..
                        But what does this have to do with it? And this is not talking about the fact that Karl has a decent set of ammunition not for anti-tank purposes.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        And that one and a half hundred cars is not enough? ..

                        Very few, and if we take into account that a little more than two dozen were able to completely destroy
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        Duc and Ushvedov have excellent artillery systems

                        Yes, but without tanks they still will not have combat stability,
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        If this happened in reality, then reckless people would spin like in a frying pan! ..

                        Naturally, the L \ B ratio was chosen just for this, even despite the fact that this led to an increase in specific pressure. But with an RPG, a counter attack is much harder to go.
                      33. +1
                        29 June 2012 18: 35
                        The concept in essence soy (as applied to this situation) turns out to be nothing more than a developed TTZ for a promising tank. This could have been produced together, but they were embodied separately in metal ... The same can be said about the German-American MTV-70. I was, I rode ... But in the future, both the FRG and the USA developed their promising MBT independently. And if here, after digging, you can still find something in common between the "second" and the M1, then in the case of the "first" and AMX-30, this is perhaps impossible to do. If only because they did not have a prototype embodied in metal ...
                        The fact that the RPG-7 got widespread in half of the globe speaks only for the fact that it really effectively performs what is required of it. Another common RPG is the same "Gustav" ...
                        And here it is, the logic is just the same. Britain also has a lot of tanks in service ...
                        However, the primary task of any RPG, and here "Gustav" is no exception - the fight against enemy armored vehicles ...
                        With episodic promotions, this is more than enough. An example of the total use of RPGs against tanks and other armored vehicles is the storming of Grozny (December 1994 - January 1995) ...
                        But the Swedes did in the period from the mid-1960s to the beginning of the 1990s. there were virtually no tanks! And what was the tank destroyer, or tank destroyer, but by no means MBT ... And the Swedes had lived without tanks for almost thirty years, and nothing had scattered there ...
                        And now with regards to intelligence ... What is easier and faster to detect - a hefty chisel with a cannon weighing tons, or two people with a grenade launcher? .. wink
                        When it is already spinning in a frying pan, it is fried in a squash in oil and covered with a golden crust ... am
                      34. 0
                        29 June 2012 20: 26
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        than developed TTZ for a promising tank.

                        And this is not enough? Both sides + Italy received cardboard tanks, which in the process were then re-booked, but could not.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        effectively fulfills what is required of him

                        Is it really just a battle with tanks?
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        An example of the total use of RPGs against tanks and other armored vehicles is the storming of Grozny (December 1994 - January 1995) ...

                        The Chechens also had tanks, ATGMs, easel grenade launchers and recoilless guns. Grozny is an example of the criminal professional unsuitability of Russian top generals --- drove BTTs into the city without infantry, armed with DZ, and with the superiority of the enemy in numbers.
                        The reverse example is Baghdad.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        years there were virtually no tanks!
                        The Swedes considered it a tank, and that was enough for them - but about it it didn’t crumble --- then they didn’t have armies at that time, they also vryatli what changed --- even though predatory Denmark and Finland could have torn to pieces a neighbor bully
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        What is easier and faster to detect - a hefty chisel with a cannon weighing tons, or two people with a grenade launcher? ..

                        depending on how many meters from the road ---- for 200 meters, or for 600. and the chisel will gladly crush reconnaissance without the slightest harm to itself and change its position, or even wait for an attack, for which the enemy will have to develop, lose pace, and then smoots in reverse.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        When it is already spinning in a frying pan, it is fried in a squash in oil and covered with a golden crust ...

                        And the enemy is also covered with a crust, no one said that there would be no losses.
                      35. +2
                        29 June 2012 21: 36
                        smile To develop a TTZ and even a sound project is one thing. But to build a working prototype, to test it and put it on a series is completely different ... And in this connection, an example from the history of aviation is recalled, when Bartini in 1942 developed a project of a fighter-interceptor with a speed of under ... 2 M .. However, they were able to build such machines only much later ...
                        Not necessarily, but the fight against the enemy’s BTT is a priority for any of the RPGs. For this, they are created first of all ...
                        In fact, the easel grenade launcher (SPG-9) is the very same recoilless. The last truly recoilless guns (B-10 and B-11) were replaced precisely with SPG-9 ... However, ATGMs are also infantry weapons ...

                        As for the numbers, as of 1992 in the territory of the Chechen Republic it was left:
                        ATGM - 77 units. (of which "Competition" -2, "Fagot -24," Metis "-51)
                        RPG-7 - at least 110 units. (in some sources the figure is -113)
                        Tanks and other armored vehicles - from 108 to 134 units. (of which 42 are T-62 and T-72 tanks)

                        But not all of this at the time of the assault was in Grozny itself ... Yes, and in urban conditions it is more convenient to use RPGs (as lighter, simpler and more maneuverable) than ATGMs. And shooting in the city is carried out at short distances, rarely exceeding several hundred meters ...
                        The assault was planned carelessly. Started capriciously and at random. But here the fault is not only the highest generals, but also the mid-level officers (brigade commanders, regiments) ...
                        As for Baghdad, it turns out that Chechens know how to fight better than Arabs. Or (how sad it is!) ...

                        The fact that the Swedes considered their "reckless Swede" a tank ... Well, it's their sexual difficulties. For fishlessness and cancer! .. Or ... or they called it a tank to calm down their soldiers (they say, we have them too!) Or to intimidate predatory neighbors and greedy Benelux countries (they say, we are tank-dangerous!) .. ... lol
                        I do not think that intelligence will make it so easy to find itself. Especially the crew of self-propelled guns ... But she can calculate her native and chisel-like. Yes, and bring her artillery fire or aircraft ... wassat
                        Losses in war are always. And the Swedes are still damn lucky that they did not have to burn in their self-propelled guns, which they so proudly called tanks ...
                      36. 0
                        29 June 2012 23: 32
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        To develop TTZ and even a sound project is one thing

                        If in the TTZ frontal armor is 60 mm, then usually in a serial tank it is 60 mm.
                        Better yet, tell me which tank was superior to Leopard 1?
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        Indeed, the fight against the enemy’s BTT is a priority for any of the RPGs.

                        Creates --- yes, but does not apply.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        The assault was planned carelessly. Started capriciously and at random

                        That is enough.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        But she can calculate her native and chisel-like. Yes, and bring her artillery fire or aircraft

                        Of course, 600 meters from the road, under a camouflage net and twigs.
                        This is already saying that 2 people (exaggerating naturally) will not do anything special, and their life expectancy will disappear in seconds. They can’t accept the battle with intelligence.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        And the Swedes are still damn lucky that they did not have to burn in their self-propelled guns, which they so proudly called tanks ...

                        Unfortunately, our tanks did not manage to avoid a classic pattern.
                        Have you read?
                      37. +2
                        1 July 2012 12: 59
                        smile The figure "60 mm" little characterizes the tank as a design and technological product. But what about the characteristics of armor, whether it is rolled or cast, homogeneity or, on the contrary, composite, its angle of inclination, assembly technology, etc. etc...
                        And how many tanks were Leopard-1 inferior? .. And why is it still in service, and above all in the Bundeswehr itself? ..
                        How not to apply, when just the same apply. It’s just that the range of shots has expanded and the RPG has become a more versatile weapon ...
                        Perhaps yes ... But this is precisely what allowed the militants to use infantry anti-tank weapons (and especially RPGs) in full force. Yes, and I must say that in essence city streets are not much different from a forest or mountain road ...
                        You do not overestimate intelligence, however ... Moreover, in essence intelligence should not come into contact with the enemy in fire. This is not her task. Her task is to detect the object and report on its location ...
                        Failed, because they participated in a real war, and not in walks around the range like the Swedes. In addition, they participated in many wars in different climatic zones with different opponents ... But was the "Swede" able to hold onto everything that our tanks withstood?
                      38. -1
                        1 July 2012 13: 28
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        armor, rolled or cast, uniformity or, on the contrary, composite

                        Homogeneous, cast and rolled (different armor parts)
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        And how many tanks were Leopard-1 inferior? ..

                        T-62
                        M-48А5
                        M-60
                        Type 74
                        Type 69
                        Chieftain
                        Vickers MK3
                        Centurion MK10
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        Just the range of shots expanded and RPGs
                        And even without expanding the nomenclature, it was precisely because the RPGs for the most (vastly larger) part were used not against tanks and began to make other deadbolts.


                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        And why is he still in service, and above all in the Bundeswehr itself? ..

                        If I’m not mistaken, the Russian Federation’s armaments still have T-62s and are even used in battles, and some countries have Shermans and T-34-85 in service
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        Yes, and I must say that in essence city streets are not much different from a forest or mountain road ...

                        If honestly cardinally differ.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        Her task is to detect the object and report on its location ...

                        And destroy it if able, and retreat if the powers of the practitioner are superior.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        But was the "Swede" able to hold onto everything that our tanks withstood?

                        And this will remain a big mystery, but if you take the experience of the Second World War and the use of German berries and berries, then it’s quite.

                        And to the RPG
                        I will say that this is not WWII.
                      39. +2
                        1 July 2012 13: 41
                        Kars,
                        Quote: Kars
                        I will say that this is not WWII.

                        judging by the IDF form
                      40. +1
                        1 July 2012 13: 52
                        The riddle of polamal bully
                        on the idea of ​​Yom Kippur and on the idea of ​​Pantsershrek, only interesting is the new or the legacy of Adik
                      41. +1
                        1 July 2012 15: 58
                        Did I say that this is the same thing? ..

                        "Vickers" Mk3? ... I wonder ... And by what characteristics? ... The silhouette there, the specific power ... the speed of movement ... the armor ... the weapons ... Oh, yes! The Vickers had a sighting machine gun, but the Leopard didn't ...
                        With the T-62, perhaps that I agree ... But for some reason you did not insert the AMX-30 into this list. Although a little earlier, it seemed as though it was argued that he is better than the Leopard in some way ... And why is the M60 better than him? ..

                        However, the basis of the arsenal is formed by cumulative shots - simple, reinforced, with a "double march" (tandem) ... Fragment and thermobaric shots are a later and less common phenomenon ...
                        The Mujahideen of Afghanistan still had rifles of the century before last in service. And they knew how to fight them ... And then a whole tank ...
                        If honestly, it is precisely the coordination differences that I do not see in them. Nuances vary, yes. But the fact that neither one, nor the other, nor the third give a maneuver to the technique, they converge at 100% ...
                        Destroy and leave this to sabotage units, or when the intelligence unit, due to the circumstances, has been given a specific task to destroy an object. For the rest, intelligence seeks not to reveal itself under any circumstances ...
                        That was the experience of "yagdy" and "yager" (everything is clear with them), but here we are kag-ba specifically about the "Swede". The fact that our post-war tanks performed well enough does not mean at all that it is necessary to recall the T-34 in this regard ...

                        And as for the photo, I can only say one thing - after the Second World War RPG firmly took its place in the infantry formation. AND they urgently hastened to acquire. And at the same time it was absolutely not important whether this was Adik’s inheritance, a copy of Adik’s inheritance or his own independent development ...
                      42. -1
                        1 July 2012 16: 21
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        But for some reason you did not insert AMX-30 into this list.

                        As I already said, one TTZ, for this did not include the Italian.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        Vickers "Mk3? ...

                        Armor, of course, a sighting machine gun and what floats wassat
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        And the better is the same M60? ..

                        Again the armor.

                        the Germans relied on mobility --- and lost, the modernization constantly raised the thickness of the armor, but .....
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        However, the basis of the arsenal is formed by cumulative shots - simple, reinforced, with a "double march" (tandem) ...

                        Well, you need to care about the ..psychical..health of the infantry, and even the iron-concrete and brick objects of the infantry also have to shoot.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        If honestly, it is precisely the coordination differences that I do not see in them. Nuances vary, yes. But the fact that neither one, nor the other, nor the third give maneuver technology, they converge at 100%

                        The presence of secondary targets, an abundance of shelters, developed, unseen and protected communications paths, resistance to the brisant properties of ammunition, altitude ---- the city is considered the most difficult battlefield for tanks and for infantry. , and usually do not have strategic importance. Forest is also not a special problem.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        For the rest, intelligence seeks not to reveal itself under any circumstances ...

                        When is the tank division behind? And does the reconnaissance roll onto the BRDM and BMP? Look at the way the reconnaissance of the tank formations of the Red Army and the Wehrmacht --- ours went on tanks in general. We're not talking about guerrilla warfare.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        and here we are Kag-Bae specifically about the "Swede".

                        But what will be the fundamental difference?
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        remember the T-34 ...

                        And who? Is it really T-35? Our T-55, T-62 are the primeval heirs of the T-34.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        RPG firmly took its place in the infantry formation

                        Yes, no one denies this, but the effectiveness of the panzer shrek against 1967 tanks perfectly shows that ... psychological ... infantry protection was required even for the Israelis.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        And it was absolutely not important

                        In general, no, but personally I am very interested.
                      43. +1
                        1 July 2012 19: 12
                        TTZ may be one thing, but the cars are different ...
                        It floats itself, or with the help of additional boats? ..
                        Armor armor strife. Even with its reservation, the M60 was still losing to Soviet tanks of that time. So its advantages over the "Leopard-1" are very relative ... And in general, up to the M1, American tank building followed a rather peculiar path, producing heavy, but large-sized tanks. As a result, the booking was not distributed rationally ...

                        To bother. Thus, RPG only confirms its versatility ...

                        All that you have listed is the features and nuances of a specifically urbanized environment. I wanted to emphasize the main thing - the complexity of maneuvering for armored vehicles on transport routes in the forest, mountains and the city. In this they are similar ...
                        It’s possible for you a mountain theater is a rare thing. And I live next to such a scene in itself, as they say, close proximity. In addition, among other things, I have experience in the mountains. And I can say that the mountains will be somewhat more complicated than the city. And if this is also the mountains covered with dense vegetation, then this is generally a good paragraph ...

                        So, after all, reconnaissance works in accordance with the features of a theater of operations ... And the tank division as a whole pulled into a forest road without a detailed reconnaissance of the terrain is sur worthy of the brush of Salvador Dali and the stupidity of the Russian General Staff from the end of 1994 ...

                        The principal thing is that the Swedes at that time actually did not have a tank. Unlike the Wehrmacht ...

                        Rather, it is not the T-34, but the T-44, that can be considered the direct "daddy" of domestic post-war tanks. It was the line-up tested on it that was subsequently used on all Soviet (as well as Russian and Ukrainian) tanks ...

                        These are the peculiarities of thinking of comrades from the armament department of the defense army of the State of Israel ...

                        ... and yet do not take phrases out of context however. Pliz ... smile
                      44. 0
                        1 July 2012 19: 31
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        TTZ may be one thing, but the cars are different ...

                        Well, the AMX is superior to the Leopard, with an equally poor reservation, the Frenchman has a more powerful weapon. I don’t know the right of the Italians.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        It floats itself, or with the help of additional boats? ..

                        Ext
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        Armor armor discord

                        English 60-70s superior German
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        M60 still lost to Soviet tanks of that time
                        And how can we conclude from this that the leopard is superior to the M60?
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        Anyway, right up to

                        Not very big differences, and the latest Leopard modifications only came close to the weight of the M60, and did not decrease in weight compared to the original Leo 1
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        As a result, the reservation was not distributed rationally ...

                        For all modern tanks, armoring is sharply differentiated, and when comparing, the frontal looks at 30 degrees maneuvering angles.

                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        Thus, RPG only confirms its versatility

                        Yes, but in our discussion, the versatility of RPGs means nothing.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        I wanted to emphasize the main thing - the complexity of maneuvering for armored vehicles on transport routes in the forest, mountains and the city

                        Maneuvering is NOT the main thing in these conditions. In the forest, and in the mountains, tanks can support their infantry from a distance at long distances, while artillery and mortar fire will be much more effective than in urban conditions.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        And I can say that the mountains will be somewhat more complicated than the city.

                        But they NU very rarely have strategic values, in contrast to cities and are special, rare cases where armored vehicles are used in principle is limited and so-called mountain troops are used.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        Yes, and a full tank division pulled into a forest road without detailed reconnaissance

                        And I’m kind of just talking about detailed intelligence, which will knock out light forces easily (sorry for the tautalogy)
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        The principal thing is that the Swedes at that time actually did not have a tank. Unlike the Wehrmacht ...

                        The Germans made excellent use of compounds consisting only of self-propelled guns.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        a T-44.

                        and who then daddy T-44, if this makes it easier then T-34 grandfather T-54
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        on all soviet

                        All the same, I separate the series T-34 - T-62, and T-64-T-90
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        These are the peculiarities of the thinking of comrades from the armament department of the defense army of the State of Israel ...

                        Well, after all, they created one of the most combat-ready military vehicles.

                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        and yet do not take phrases out of context, however. Pliz

                        And how to write? Put in a quote the whole comment?
                      45. +1
                        1 July 2012 23: 46
                        Such is the direct revelation that the French surpassed the Germans in tank building ... I just don’t know whether to be happy or sad ...

                        In fact, it was here that he spoke exclusively about the American school of tank construction and its features ... But ...
                        If the weight of the "Leopard-1" has increased, then it is logical to assume that the protection of the tank has also increased due to the increase in armor ...

                        Speaking about the irrational booking of the M60, I meant "there is too little skin for such a snout" ...

                        The RPG universality may not mean anything in our discussion, but it constantly pops up in it ...

                        And what about getting out of the fire? .. And changing the position? .. And changing the route (course) of movement, changing it? .. Or is all this not included in the definition of "maneuvering" ...
                        In the mountains, in the forest, as well as in the city, it can be quite difficult to maintain fire because of limited visibility, terrain and other factors ... But sometimes the objects located in the mountains are the key to the success of the whole operation ... then I agree with you - tanks in the mountains have nothing to do. As well as in the city ...

                        ... and the main forces will do the main work. Kag-be is also a tautology ...

                        And what did our tanks do with these excellent connections from self-propelled guns alone? ..

                        These are closer in layout and a number of design decisions to the post-war tanks of the T-44 ...
                        And do you separate the T-34 - T-62 and T-64 - T-90 series or not, but the latter also did not appear from scratch and did not appear ...

                        I agree. Created. But for some reason, they didn’t qualify to arm her, this car with normal kag-be grenade launchers ...

                        Well, at least quote the whole sentence, but part of it. This is kag-be common practice ... smile

                        And in this photo - the Swedes with a new BMP, relatively new rifles and the good old "Gustav". It is still good enough to calm the nerves (apparently, the STRV-103 could no longer cope with this task, and as a result the Swedes finally decided to get rid of it and get a real tank, which became the Leopard-2). .. lol
                      46. -1
                        2 July 2012 00: 06
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        If the weight of the "Leopard-1" has increased, then it is logical to assume that the protection of the tank has also increased due to the increase in armor

                        This can also be taken as a revelation.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        Speaking about the irrational booking of the M60, I meant "there is too little skin for such a snout" ...

                        I’ll give a diagram, not such a snout, but just a huge difference in armor.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        The RPG universality may not mean anything in our discussion, but it constantly pops up in it ...

                        Well, you know that it’s not drowning,
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        And what about getting out of the fire? .. And changing the position? .. And changing the route (course) of movement, changing it? .. Or is all this not included in the definition of "maneuvering" ...

                        So all this can be done, both in the forest and in the city, even in the mountains --- tanks fight everywhere, because they are difficult, well, no one said it would be easy.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        But actually, I agree with you - tanks in the mountains have nothing to do. As well as in the city ...

                        I didn’t say anything like this, without tanks the city will take more blood than knee-deep. The mountains are the same, in Korea, the UN troops dragged Church on almost any hills, just like ours in Afghanistan. Without tanks or even (what would a Swede enter ) well-armored self-propelled guns-turretless tanks of no stability.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        And what did our tanks do with these excellent connections from self-propelled guns alone? ..

                        Usually they incurred losses at the rate of 1 to 3, well, at least the general superiority allowed us to leave the battlefield behind us (losses of 13 armored units in 700 months of 5)
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        These are closer in layout and a number of design decisions to the post-war tanks of the T-44

                        Naturally, the T-44 chain was made later than the T-34 and corrected flaws and embodied combat experience in it. Even the indices are closer 34-44-54 bully
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        this car with normal grenade launchers kag-be and did not qualify ...

                        All means are good for the psychic support of the infantry. The RPGs are all the same secondary - whereas they took the good tanks for themselves - not the Leopards, of course, but the Centurions of Shot proved themselves to be excellent, as were the Soviet Tiran trophies.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        good old "Gustav

                        I think near Armata the infantry will run along with Hashim with the good RPG-7.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        STRV-103 could not cope with this task.

                        Well, the Swedes went on a simple path, bought what the neighbors did--.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        got a real tank

                        Well, what can I say - stabilization and aiming systems have gone very far since the 60s, and finally allowed us to confidently hit targets on the move. So it’s logical.
                      47. +1
                        2 July 2012 18: 22
                        smile But what a revelation. No more than a logical conclusion ...

                        Perhaps the Vickers Mk3 is not sinking, equipped with additional floating facilities ...

                        Dragged to the hills, where they were used as stationary firing points, and not as tanks per se. With the same success in this capacity it was possible to use a towed artillery system ...

                        Knee-deep blood can be with tanks. But you can storm the city without them, however. What is not bad (for local conflicts) was demonstrated by Chechens in Grozny in August 1996 ...

                        As it does not sound regrettable, quite acceptable losses on the offensive ...

                        As for the codification of our tanks ... No systematic and complete mess. And in this case, they definitely wanted to show their succession from the T-34. However, in technical terms, they are closer to the T-44 ...

                        For the psychological support of the infantry (and not only it), only well-proven means are good. A soldier in a war will not carry a useless piece of metal with him just to calm him down and to please his superiors ...

                        A number of sources indicate that the MBT based on the "Armata" will bear the name T-99 "Priority". However, this is not so important ...
                        And the fact that they will run with the RPG-7 is correct. He's old but kind. Just like "Gustav" ... Yes, and they would not develop new RPGs (the same "Hashim") if their concept had completely exhausted itself ...

                        Duc, all ingenious is just the same ... wink And as I wrote earlier - why complicate what does not need to be complicated a priori ...

                        The fact that they stepped forward is logical. Progress does not stand still ... So it turns out that the designers of Leopard-1, and not Leopard-III, turned out to be right in the future ... Time has put everything in its place ...
                      48. +1
                        2 July 2012 18: 35
                        I will also give a schematic diagram. Frontal projection area. True, it depicts the MBT of the last time. But among them there was also ... "reckless Swede" with the M60 ...
                      49. -1
                        2 July 2012 18: 45
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        Perhaps the Vickers Mk3 is not sinking, equipped with additional floating facilities ...

                        Correctly, he forces water barriers at a speed of up to 2 knots.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        . With the same success in this capacity it was possible to use a towed artillery system ...

                        And why didn’t they drag her in instead of the heavy Churchill? Yes, and you can also go on the attack, accompanied by towed artillery crews.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        What is not bad (for local conflicts) was demonstrated by Chechens in Grozny in August 1996 ...

                        this number only rolls in the civil war. But the tanks during the second assault on the formidable were used in large numbers and they did not suffer significant losses.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        As it does not sound regrettable, quite acceptable losses on the offensive ...

                        You see how everything went well.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        No systematic and complete mess. And in this case, they definitely wanted to show their succession from the T-34. However, in technical terms, they are closer to the T-44 ...

                        Will I have to repeat?

                        Quote: Kars
                        Naturally, the T-44 network was made later than the T-34, and it corrected flaws and embodied combat experience

                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        And they would not have developed new RPGs (the same "Hashim") if their concept had completely exhausted itself ...

                        The concept will not particularly exhaust itself, until the mass adoption of the AZ into service. But the tanks also do not stand still, and there is also priority in the destruction of field fortifications for which thermobaric shots went in.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        A soldier in a war will not carry a useless piece of metal with him just to calm him down and to please his superiors ...

                        It will become, and nobody told the net about the complete futility --- from RPGs you can shoot at the enemy, and even kill him.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        So it turns out that in the future, the designers of Leopard-1 turned out to be right, and not Leopard-III

                        The designers of Leopard 1 turned out to be wrong in the future, so in Leo 2 almost nothing from Leo 1 and the concept is also not the same.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        Time has put everything in its place ...

                        Yes, Leopard 1 was a thing of the past the weakest tank of its generation. With a good crew, I would have put it on the T-55. And the STRV-103 kept its place of honor in museums, like many other models of military equipment with a tower without a tower.
                      50. +1
                        2 July 2012 20: 34
                        Yes, and let him boost his health. And the question of the universality of RPGs pops up. Well, or gets up ... I hope this wording does not cause any extraneous associations? ..

                        But in fact, attack and go accompanied by artillery. More precisely, with its fire support. Including tanks ...
                        But why did they prefer to pull the Churchlls instead of artillery systems? .. Maybe they just didn't think of it ... Or maybe they just felt sorry for the guns ...

                        Duc, I stressed that for local conflicts ... However, in any case, this example is ...
                        And was there such a massive use of them as during the first assault? ..

                        Well, now, it turns out that the RPG is already not so useless ... And the soldier with it will not be pulled with it. It used to be both regular and quite useful. There are many examples of this, believe me ...
                        That's when the KAZ will become widespread, when the RPG developers will not be able to find resistance to it, then we will talk about the uselessness of the RPG for fighting tanks. In the meantime, this has not happened ...

                        You can, if desired, and repeat. However, the fact remains - in terms of overall line-up, post-war tanks are closer to the T-44 ...
                        And as an example, long-range bomber aviation ... The line Tu-4 - Tu-80-Tu-85 - Tu-95 can be traced very clearly. However, in terms of the overall lineup that served as the basis for subsequent machines was the Tu-80, and not the ancestor of the Tu-4 family ...

                        In the long run, they were just right in developing a tower tank, and not a multi-barrel iron ...

                        All of us here can fight Leopard 1 on T-55 ... wink And even knock out the IS-3 on the AMX-13 ... lol
                        The fact that the "Swede" took his place in the museum is not surprising. There he belongs. However, I already wrote about this above ...
                      51. -2
                        2 July 2012 23: 48
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        And the question of the universality of RPGs pops up. Well, or gets up ...

                        But why?
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        Maybe they just didn’t think of it ... Or maybe it was just a pity the guns ...

                        I didn’t think of it, but what about the tank being much more tenacious than the usual Art system?
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        And was there such a massive use of them as during the first assault? ..

                        Of course, only this time they organized interaction with the infantry.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        However, in any case, this example is ...

                        But it’s not the topic --- the Jews didn’t take Beirut without tanks, like the Yankees of Baghdad, and I can’t imagine how to take Berlin without tanks.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        Well, now, it turns out that the RPG is already not so useless ...

                        And when did I say that RPG is useless? I said that it is even very useful for the mental health of soldiers and the treatment of tank fear. But as the German Faustpatrons did not stop Soviet and American tanks, so in most significant post-war conflicts they did not show anything special.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        However, the fact remains - in terms of overall line-up, post-war tanks are closer to the T-44 ...

                        You repeat - it’s natural if the T-44 is even closer chronologically to them.
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        There he belongs

                        He stands next to the T-10, Conkeror, M-103,
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        All of us here can fight Leopard 1 on T-55 ...

                        But what is this not real?
                        Quote: Chicot 1
                        And even knock out the IS-3 on the AMX-13

                        It is quite possible what it was, even though the Jews quickly abandoned the AMX-13
                      52. +1
                        4 July 2012 22: 12
                        Really - why? .. I touched only on the primary function of the RPG - the fight against armored vehicles ...

                        How much more durable is the tank than the usual artillery system? .. And how much more reliable is it than them? ..

                        However, without infantry, neither there, nor here ...

                        Tank fear is not treated psychologically and complacency. Tank fear of being treated with effective anti-tank agents ...

                        I repeat exactly as necessary ...

                        But this is already interesting. Have ours acquired a "Swede" in Kubinka? ..

                        Of course we can! In "tanks" ... An example with AMX-13 and IS-3 is also from the same place ... I had to see, although I am not a fan of computer shooters, I saw my friends chasing ... lol

                        PS However, I must say that our discussion with you has come to a standstill. But I liked her. Thank you so much, dear Kars... And also "+" in comments ... smile
                      53. +1
                        28 June 2012 19: 47
                        On the contrary. Please dear alex86. smile And if you will, then I will voice my remark to your comment ...
                        I am not interested in Sweden as such. I was interested in the collision of two vehicles with a different lineup on a neutral field with conditions ideal for tank battles .. What I wrote above ...
                        And from an ambush on a dull Swedish prosika, among oaks and woody vegetation, the calculation with the RPG "Karl Gustav" will work perfectly ... And two calculations will work even better ... And you can also mine the road ... Moreover, both of these options will be from the category of "cheap and cheerful". And perhaps that is much more practical ... wink
                        And I took on the "Swede" because he was in the series and was in service. Unlike the "Leopard-third" ... And the "Swede" has already been written off. And they replaced it with "Leopard-2" ...
      2. +1
        25 June 2012 22: 49
        And yet - here the T-35 is being discussed - this is a crazy (from today's point of view) design - but it was produced and gave experience, incl. negative - so for her constructors the same "contempt"?
  14. prispek
    0
    25 June 2012 22: 31
    It's even strange; an article on a tank topic, and Kars does not participate in the discussion. It is necessary to quickly write a wh-thread and in tinka, otherwise it will fly in; scraps will fly from me through the back streets. Well, in general, thanks for the article. I first read about this miracle in the "Foreign Military Review" when I served in the SA, Even then I was at a loss, what kind of nonsense? But I thought; Germans are noble warriors and designers - they know better. Looks like they say the truth; and there is a hole in the old woman. However, besides the article, the direction of the discussion is very interesting. The absolute majority twirls a finger at their temples and laughs at the absurdity of the design. And I remember on May 19 there was an article "Three plus two. Experienced self-propelled gun KV-7" Object 227 "about how, during the war, our inventors came up with three guns in one wheelhouse. I wrote that you need to take off the reservation and send it to the front What started here! All and sundry, from seropaths to generals of the army, ch_m_oriled me. In general, I missed so many minuses that I immediately changed the color of the shoulder straps and even got a stripe. But the Germans experimented on a private company and not during the war, in contrast from ours.
    1. 0
      25 June 2012 22: 50
      Quote: prispek
      and Kars is not involved in the discussion

      There is nothing to discuss here, machine as machine ---- experiments, I prefer Swedes more.

      and the fact that you remember me even without my presence flatters me.
      1. +1
        25 June 2012 23: 01
        In the rubble of the black panther came across a photoshoot
        1. +1
          25 June 2012 23: 03
          And in the middle of the embrasure under mg-34)
        2. prispek
          0
          25 June 2012 23: 14
          We say "tanks", we mean Kars. We say "Kars" we mean tanks. I go around the tank articles by the ninth road. Gave slack, could not resist; you're right there.
          1. 0
            25 June 2012 23: 25
            C'mon, how is the selection of materials going on for the IS-7?