Death from nowhere. About the mine war on the sea. Part of 1

178
The experience of the past is valuable only when studied and properly understood. The forgotten lessons of the past will surely be repeated. This is more than ever true for military construction and preparation for war, and it is not for nothing that the military carefully studies the battles of the past.

This certainly applies to the naval forces.



There is, however, one historical a lesson that is completely ignored in almost all countries to which this lesson was once taught, and those who taught it are also ignored. We are talking about sea mines and the destructive impact that they can have on any of the fleets of the world, being correctly and massively applied.



This is surprising and somewhat frightening: not a single fleet is able to adequately assess the threat that has been studied many times, and by some who have been used weapons. Let us leave the phenomenon of mass blindness to psychologists, in the end, when assessing naval preparations of various countries, it is important for us that there is a “cognitive distortion” among decision makers, and where it came from to better understand psychologists. It is far more interesting to evaluate the real potential of mine weapons, especially since sometimes professionals, whose duties will include their combat use, underestimate it.

A bit of history.

The most widespread today conflict, in which sea mines were used, is the Second World War. However, although the results of the use of mine weapons are well documented, they are not properly studied. Mine warfare issues are “divided” between different types of Armed Forces, which, for the most part, see in mine settings as something secondary to the use of other types of weapons. This is a common moment in the Armed Forces of various countries, including Russia.

How was it really?

We remember how the Gulf of Finland was blocked by German mines, and how the Baltic Fleet was locked up in its harbors for a long time, we remember how the submarines died as they tried to break through the mines and nets exposed by the enemy. We remember how many ships died during the evacuation of Tallinn and Hanko. It would seem that everything is obvious, but in Russia mine warfare is “not in high esteem,” just like mine support. About this a little later, but for now let's see what Western historical experience looks like.

In 1996, the Australian Air Force Center, a military research organization under the Australian Air Force, issued the so-called Document 45. Air War and Naval Operations. The authorship document of Doctor of Historical Sciences Richard Hallion is an essay on a forty-one page, which summarizes the combat experience of the basic aviation Allies in the fight against the naval forces of their opponents, both during WWII and after, some sort of squeeze from the actions of the “coast” against “fleet". The essay is a very detailed and high-quality study, with a detailed bibliography, and for the Australian Air Force is also, in a sense, a guide to action. It is freely available..

That, for example, is indicated in it with regard to the effectiveness of mine settings from the air:

A total of 1,475s have been shunted by a RAF attack, captured, or scuttled from 1,654,670 through 51. A total of 2,885 of these ships (4,693,836 of which were warships) were bombed and destroyed in port. Mines laid out by the Coastal Command and the Bomber Command, the 1939 were warships. 1945 is not a RAF air attack. Of course, mining was not possible; X-NUMX mine-dropping


Approximate translation:

Total 1475 ships and vessels (total displacement 1 654 670 tons) were sunk at sea or destroyed in ports during the attacks of the Royal Air Force, representing 51% of all enemy casualties in 2885 ships and ships (with a total displacement 4 693 836 tons) destroyed by allies at sea and in the air, captured or drowned from 1939 to 1945. Of these, 437 ships and vessels (186 of which are warships) were sunk as a result of air attacks at sea, while 279 others (including 152 warships) were bombed and destroyed in ports. The mines set up by the Coastal and Bomber Command of the Royal Air Force are attributed to 759 ships and vessels (215 warships). These 759 targets make up 51% of all ships sunk by the Royal Air Force. In fact, mining was five times more productive than any other form of air attack; The Royal Air Forces could have declared the ship sinking for every 26 combat sorties for mining, while a direct air attack required 148 sorties to sink the ship with a direct air attack.


Thus, the experience of the British in Europe suggests that mines - the most effective weapon against ships, more effective than bombs, torpedoes, shelling and airborne cannons or anything else.

The author cites an example unknown to us: Kriegsmarine was forced to use 40% personnel for demining! This could not but have an effect on the outcome of the war at sea. What is interesting, the author, citing statistics on the German tonnage destroyed by our armed forces, assigns mines 25%. This data is worth checking, of course, but the order of numbers looks realistic.

The chapter "Aerial Mining Bottles Up the Home Islands" (approximately - "Air mining locks the Japanese islands") would deserve to bring it in full, but the format of the article does not provide for this, therefore, we will give a squeeze.

Since the end of 1944, the Allies have conducted a campaign to mine the waters important for the supply of the Japanese islands, including the coastal ones. It was exposed from the air 21389 mines, of which 57% bomber exposed B-29 Superfortress.

According to the author, the result of this short mining campaign was the sinking of 484 ships, the destruction to the impossibility of restoring even 138 and 338 were seriously damaged. Total tonnage totaled 2 027 516 tons, including 1 028 563 tons lost completely and irrevocably. This is, in general, about 10,5 percent of all that Japan lost to the sea during the entire war, according to JANAC - a special commission for assessing the results of the war. But the mines campaign lasted only a few months!

And if the Americans immediately, from the 1941 year would have resorted to such operations? If they used seaplanes for night raids with mines on the coastal waters, which, relying on ships-tenders, could well “get” Japan? What if a mine campaign would take a couple of years? How long would Japan hold, given that the ten-month Allied mining raids completely paralyzed Japanese shipping? So much so that 86% of all ship repair facilities were idle, blocked by mines from delivering damaged ships to them?

At the same time, we all need to understand that the mines at that time were very much simpler and cheaper than torpedoes. In fact, it was a question of a “cheap victory” - if the Americans were more smart with mining, the war could have ended earlier. The Japanese would just die.

Fast forward to a somewhat later historical period - the beginning of the 80-s, at the "peak" of the Cold War.

When planning a war at sea with the USSR, the Americans, remembering (then) their experience with Japan, planned to carry out high-intensity offensive mining by the forces of tactical aviation, B-52 Stratofortress bombers, and P-3 Orion patrol aircraft, as well as submarines. The latter, taking advantage of secrecy, were to mine the Soviet ports on the White Sea and Kamchatka, partly in the Barents Sea. Aviation would take over remote areas from the Soviet shores.

On this page from the collection of the US Maritime Strategy in 80-x, released by the Naval College in Newport, you can see where the US planned to carry out mining, and how many mines the US allies had.

Death from nowhere. About the mine war on the sea. Part of 1


It is not difficult to see that it was huge. And we must understand that these were not at all such mines that blocked Japan. For such a mine as CAPTOR, the affected area is 1000 meters - it is in this “field” that a mine can detect a submarine and release an anti-submarine torpedo from a tethered container.

In fact, realize this plan, mines for a time would be a factor of planetary scale.


About this here they wanted to close the mines completely. Moreover, they could. And not only in these places. Is it a bit much for such a small planet? And then how to trawl it?


In 1984, the United States CIA unleashed a terrorist war against Nicaraguaand, in addition to the actions of the Contras on the ground, the Americans carried out the mining of harbors and coastal waters, which led to the undermining of many civilian courts and would have caused great damage to the Nicaraguan economy, if not for the help of the USSR. At the same time, the Americans used artisanal mines, installed from the Contra boats, and this operation cost them absolutely ridiculous money. Investments were scanty, efficiency - huge.

What else does historical experience tell us?

For example the fact that the duration of the trawling can be very long. So, the Soviet Navy in 1974 spent 6 thousands of hours of continuous trawling on demining the Gulf of Suez XNUMX.

The US and NATO cleared the Suez Canal from the 14 mines for months. During the clearance by the Chinese of Haiphong harbor in 1972, a squad of 16 minesweepers and support vessels, staffed by the best Chinese experts, spent only three months on breaking through the corridor of their Haiphong in the sea from August 25 to 25 in November. Further, the trawling works continued until mid-January of the 1972 year. And this is despite the fact that the scale of American mining was limited.

The question arises: how would emergency demining be carried out if it were necessary to urgently withdraw a submarine from the harbor, for example? Alas, the answer is no. Those methods, at least.

Still? We also know that during an offensive operation, mining is carried out in advance. This is a very important point - if you ask anyone when the war started in Germany against the USSR, most will say that 22 June 1941, about 3.30 nights, from Luftwaffe air strikes.

And in fact, it began in the late evening of June 21 in the Baltic, with the setting of mines.

Briefly summarize the historical experience.

1. Sea mines have tremendous destructive power, in relative terms, they turned out to be more effective lethal weapons than torpedoes and bombs. Most likely, mines are the most effective anti-vehicle.

2. The main means of setting mines is aviation. The number of ships that exploded on mines exposed from the air exceeds the same number, but on mines from submarines hundreds of times - by two orders of magnitude. This is indicated, for example, by the American data (the same JANAC).

3. Submarines are able to carry out covert and pinpoint mining in the area protected by the enemy, including in its waters.

4. Trawling mines takes a long time, from months to years. There is no way to speed it up. For now at least.

5. When waging an aggressive offensive war, the enemy will resort to "offensive mining" and put mines in advance, before the outbreak of hostilities.

6. Mines are one of the most "economically efficient" types of weapons - their cost is disproportionately small in comparison with the effect they have.

Now fast forward to our day.

Currently, there are thousands of mines in service with developed countries. These are bottom mines and torpedo mines, which have a container with a homing torpedo instead of an exploding warhead, and mines with a torpedo rocket, and self-propelled mines released from the submarine torpedo tube and going to the place of installation on their own.

Mines are set from surface ships and boats, submarines and aircraft.

An example of a modern aviation mine is the American system. "Quickstreak" - satellite-guided planning mines. Being dropped from a carrier - a combat aircraft, these mines fly several tens of kilometers using folding wings and a steering system similar to those that have JDAM bombs, and then fall into the water at a given point. This method allows, firstly, to protect the carrier plane from the air defense fire, and secondly, to put mines exactly “according to the scheme” - being controlled, they will fall on the water, precisely repeating the desired “map” of the minefield with their contact points.


Reset Quickstrike guided mines from the P-3С Orion aircraft.


At the same time, the minesweeper passes over the trawling “in the old way”, and then it “hooks” (or physically - by cutting off a minrep, or by its physical fields, acoustic or electromagnetic), one of the trawls submerged in water cannot be mined. Mina is likely to simply explode under the minesweeper, destroying it, despite the measures taken to reduce its own physical fields (non-metallic hull, demagnetized engine, reduced noise, etc.). The same will happen when divers attempt to clear mines manually from under the water - the mine will react to this. As an option, some mine defender may react to this - also a mine, but intended to prevent the clearance of a “normal” mine.

Today, mines are fought as follows: the minesweeper “scans” the underwater environment and the bottom with the help of GUS. When a suspicious object is detected under water, an unmanned underwater vehicle, controlled via an optical fiber cable from a minesweeper, is brought to it. Having recognized the mine, the crew of the minesweeper directs another apparatus to it - more simple. This is a mine destroyer, an apparatus that undermines a mine and dies. I must say that they are very much worth it.

Ships that have such capabilities plus the “traditional” mine sweeps are now called minesweepers - mine seekers - THIS.

An alternative option is to locate search systems on a ship that is not a minesweeper at all.

A modern trend is the use of another “link” in mine action - an unmanned boat (BEC). Such a remote-controlled boat equipped with HAS and controlled from a minesweeper, “takes risks” and helps to remove people from the danger zone.

The process of searching and destroying modern mines is most clearly shown here in this video:



So, the paradox of modernity is that all this is very, very expensive. There is not a single country in the world that could afford trawling forces adequate to a mine threat from a probable enemy.

From the Russian Navy, unfortunately, everything is clear. If we assume that the mine complex “Mayovka” and GAS “Livadia” on minesweeper-seeker of the project 02668 "Vice-Admiral Zakharyin" are not in repair, but are on the ship and are functioning, and the crew is trained to use them, then we can safely say that Russia has one minesweeper.

Not quite modern, and without BEC, but at least able to cope with the tasks of finding mines.

And if, as now, with part of the equipment under repair, then it turns out that we have zero modern and efficient minesweepers. The ships of the 12700 project, which began to enter the fleet recently, unfortunately, do not justify themselves - too many defects and their anti-mine complex, and indeed the design was unsuccessful. Yes, and diesel for them PJSC "Star" can not produce in the right quantity. At the same time, they will continue to build them anyway, our “saving face” has long been more important than combat effectiveness.

However, catastrophic failures on level ground have long been a normal phenomenon for the Russian Navy, so we will not be surprised.

However, in other naval forces things are no better - there is simply no country in the world with adequate trawling forces. There is not a single country where there would be at least twenty modern minesweepers. Moreover, there is not a single country where we would seriously ask ourselves the question: “and what will we do if there are not tens, but thousands of mines on the way”? There is not a single country where at least someone would calculate the economics of a mine war and came to the logical conclusion that it would not be possible to make the right amount of disposable destroyers. Modern minesweepers do not carry a dozen destroyers - these devices are too expensive.

Everyone is ready to lay mines and have their reserves, but no one is ready to deal with them later. Currently, all mine action work is going around the BEC-NPA ligament search for mine-killers. Almost no one thinks about how to destroy minefields QUICKLY or pass them quickly. Nearly.

Продолжение следует ...
178 comments
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  1. 0
    5 February 2019 05: 35
    Danish straits and Turkish can not be mined, in principle, to save.
    And the mines must self-destruct, say, after six months
    1. +1
      5 February 2019 09: 34
      The life of a modern mine year. Then its drawdown is questionable, in the same place electricity is needed for pinpointing a target, so self-destruction will occur by itself by a certain point.
      1. +5
        5 February 2019 10: 33
        I am a boot, not a Moreman, but at one time I had a direct relationship to mines, so I can draw analogies between sea and land. The lifespan of some "smart" mines is up to ... in general, more than a year (in fact, the life cycle is calculated depending on temperature changes, the number of ppm in the breath of the miner, etc.), subject to certain conditions, of which the most simple, in addition to a modern battery - a given period of passive mode and active, on command from the outside or programmed and installation of a backup power supply for charging the battery based, in this case, the interaction of chemicals.
        1. +1
          5 February 2019 10: 41
          Sea mines have a year, ours.
          1. +6
            5 February 2019 14: 26
            Mine direction (sea mines) in the Russian military-industrial complex is one of the most secret. I went through 15 mine weapons years ago and I can say that the 70x-80x mines of the development years did not look like spiked balls, but looked more like deep torpedoes in an ambush and were very difficult to trawl / detect. It can be assumed that modern mine weapons are even less susceptible to detection and even more dangerous for surface and submarine vessels.
      2. +3
        5 February 2019 16: 33
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        The life of a modern mine year. Then its drawdown is questionable, in the same place electricity is needed for pinpointing a target, so self-destruction will occur by itself by a certain point.

        Whether it’s a matter of mines exposed during the Second World War, despite intensive trawling, for many years they posed a danger to shipping. For example, back in 1963 in the North Sea there were more than 10 bottom mines at the bottom. Only sailing on proven fairways, but without an absolute guarantee. Mine trawling in the North and Baltic Seas also continued in 1970 (!!!) g. belay Found mines are usually destroyed at the place of their discovery. For example, one of the dredgers working in the Gulf of Finland on the construction of a dam has lifted many hundreds of shells, mines and cannonballs of all times and many countries with its buckets. So, only within two months of 1986, more than 400 mines were discovered, which were then detonated. In June 1986, at the bottom of the Gulf of Finland, a whole "scattering" of 78 mines, which had been lying on the ground for 70 years, was discovered. The mines were carefully examined and blown up ... Such is the kind of "gift" fellow descendants.
        1. +2
          5 February 2019 17: 02
          We all more or less know the famous warships that became victims of mines ("Petropavlovsk", together with Admiral Makarov, or already in the Great Patriotic War - the leader "Moscow" and so on). But few people know how the newly-made Red Fleet faced the mine war. It would be an honor to remind someone:
          On the night of October 21-22, 1919, four destroyers of the Baltic Fleet left Kronstadt in the direction of Koporskaya Bay. The destroyers marched into the wake: Gabriel, Constantine, Liberty, and Azard. The task was to block the troops of Yudenich's path to Kronstadt. Gabriel was the first to explode in a mine: “The explosion split him in two. However, they managed to lower the boat, which accommodated 19 people. The rest of the team joined hands, sang the Internationale and plunged into the waves with the ship. The commander of the "Gabriel" VV Sevastyanov died with the crew. Destroyer "Liberty" tried to get around the sinking Gabriel on the right and also blew up a mine. Only 6 people escaped on the boat. Each destroyer had 60–80 min, so when the destroyer "Konstantin", going around Gabriel on the left, also blown up on a mine, it detonated its own mines, and the entire crew died. The destroyer Azard was forced to turn back, retreating back from the crash site. The boat from Gabriel docked at the location of the Red Guards, and the boat from Liberty fell into the hands of the whites. The sailors were brutally murdered.

          An unambiguous conclusion suggests itself from this sad story: a mine war is not about singing the International and holding rallies about the World Revolution, but above all professionalism and discipline. And the young Red Navy obviously did not have these qualities.
      3. +3
        6 February 2019 00: 46
        A. Timokhin! Thanks. The article is interesting and informative. The topic of mine and torpedo weapons rarely appears in the vastness of the military, we mainly "discuss" Hohland.
        An interesting review of the Russian mines was compared with our potential opponents.
        With respect. drinks
        1. +3
          6 February 2019 12: 39
          We'll see will depend on how quickly the material is collected.
          1. 0
            6 February 2019 13: 45
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            We'll see will depend on how quickly the material is collected.

            Thank. Boom to wait. hi drinks drinks
  2. +2
    5 February 2019 05: 47
    So, the paradox of modernity is that all this is very, very expensive. There is not a single country in the world that could afford trawling forces adequate to a mine threat from a probable enemy.
    Here is the answer. Expensive. But everyone understands the threat ...
    Almost no one thinks about how to destroy minefields FAST or quickly pass them. Nearly.
    Judging by the impressive introduction in the sequel, we are waiting for a description of the idea of ​​the author of the article, which will offer a way to destroy minefields FAST or pass them quickly .. smile Well, let's not make hasty conclusions and wait for the second part ...
    1. +3
      5 February 2019 06: 11
      Quote: tasha
      which will offer a way to destroy minefields FAST or pass them quickly ..

      The author just did not understand the topic. He believes that the mine destroyer is an expensive kamikaze, while it only delivers an explosive charge to the mine, which then destroys the mine with an explosion. He carries several charges and is capable of destroying more than one mine in one go. Therefore, NATO countries have no particular problems in clearing minefields.
      1. +3
        5 February 2019 10: 03
        No, you are confusing it. What you described is that the end of the 80s, the beginning of the 90s, when the seeker himself carried small explosive charges. We have the same "May Day" done this way.

        But right now this is not always a working scheme. Near the bottom mine there may be, for example, a mine defender, the bottom mine itself may react to the seeker.

        Therefore, another is used - for example.
        http://marinepropulsionsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/AUV-Mine-Hunting-Systems-2017.pdf

        The seeker is separate, the destroyer is separate, the destroyer has an invoice charge, but there is also a "cannon" with which he shoots a mine "point-blank" (as, by the way, is shown in the video posted). In the latter case, the device will not have time to leave, it initiates the explosion itself. The operator chooses the method of destruction of the mine, according to the results of its identification. I draw your attention to the fact that the destroyer lives only half an hour after launch (see the brochure).

        In general, everything is somewhat wrong.
        1. +6
          5 February 2019 11: 27
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          Near the bottom mine there can be, for example, a mine defender, the bottom mine itself can react to the searcher.

          Then what for you BEC ????
          1. +3
            5 February 2019 12: 18
            BEC carries GAS, he carries a seeker, he carries a destroyer - see the video.
            1. +5
              5 February 2019 12: 32
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              BEC carries GAS, it is also driven by a seeker, it carries a destroyer

              And as for the ShAT-U trawl, as I understand it, you are not in the know?
              1. 0
                5 February 2019 19: 11
                He towed. And you need to have a mine search facility right on the course.

                Here, this very BIRT-U in the variant of towing by helicopter would be a nice thing, but alas.
    2. +7
      5 February 2019 06: 26
      I’ll try to make an assumption - trained dolphins (or other marine inhabitants) will be named, as one of the ways.
      1. +1
        5 February 2019 09: 37
        This is already used by the Americans, but with thousands of mines it will not work.
        1. +5
          5 February 2019 09: 53
          It depends on how many trained dolphins to use.
          1. +2
            5 February 2019 10: 39
            Well, at the 6000 bases, you have squandered bottom mines and another 1000 minotorped.
            1. +3
              5 February 2019 11: 29
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              6000 bottom mines and another 1000 minotorpedos were thrown at your bases.

              laughing Sasha, keep yourself in your hands !!!!
              1. +3
                5 February 2019 12: 21
                Have you seen a page from Maritime Stratidzh? What and how much they want to mine.

                Unas 18 main bases of the Navy. For 388 mines in the waters of each, it is quite possible to throw in a week or two.

                We recall the Gulf of Finland.

                We recall the small 22000 mines that ama had fired on the Japanese in less than a year, and with far less than zero resistance.

                Reality is against you, Sergey.
                1. +1
                  5 February 2019 13: 42
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  Have you seen the page from Marytime Straights?

                  Not only that, I still saw a page from the history of the CPSU, it was written there that in the 80 th there will be communism and stopudovo?
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  Unas 18 Navy Base

                  what I counted a maximum of +/- 10
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  On 388 mines in the waters of each one can be thrown in a week or two

                  You can, of course, who argues. Especially when the naval garrison will help .. well, there is a place to show, move a bit, mark the fairway with flags.
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  Reality is against you, Sergey.

                  laughing Your fantasies and realities are not very close!
                  1. +1
                    5 February 2019 19: 14
                    Your fantasies and realities are not very close!


                    That is, the historical facts of setting tens of thousands of mines in a matter of months do not convince you?
            2. +6
              5 February 2019 11: 42
              Though I’m Sergey, but alas - not Kazhugetovich. I don’t have any bases, and dolphins. But if you insist - I’ll go collect something. It may fit in the household. Yes
          2. +4
            5 February 2019 11: 31
            in addition to dolphins, you will have to attract seals, seals and dugongs. to the delight of the "green"
            1. +4
              5 February 2019 12: 02
              Roma hi That's right you are talking about "cats". They threw them themselves, let them collect them themselves. lol
            2. +3
              5 February 2019 22: 31
              Quote: novel xnumx
              in addition to dolphins, you will have to attract seals, seals and dugongs. to the delight of the "green"

              laughing And also thrill divers! Than sharks stroke, let the mines look ... laughing
              1. +3
                5 February 2019 22: 32
                great thought !! survivors can even be awarded!
    3. -4
      5 February 2019 07: 00
      Yes, this article is nonsense, all advertising crap. The process of working with one bottom mine on the minrep is shown (the simplest). Honestly, I didn’t notice how much time it took. But I think at least 30min. Two questions, who will give you so much work in the minefield in battle? And how long will it take if there is still no opposition from the enemy. And another question has matured, I did not understand, the mine was blown up by a second apparatus with a camera? If so, then it is not only expensive but also very long.
      1. +4
        5 February 2019 07: 09
        you wrote 7 sentences: the first and six subsequent, which refute it what
        1. -7
          5 February 2019 07: 11
          What is the refutation that the article is nonsense advertising?
          1. +5
            5 February 2019 09: 37
            And what is advertised in the article?
            1. -5
              5 February 2019 10: 35
              Everything is lost! there is nothing in Russia, but here is the film abroad for you. Only this movie has nothing to do with life, at all. Have you ever taken part in a landing with an introduction that the coast is mined? While you are going to mine this way, the enemy will strengthen the coast and take over your entire unit. And if you need to leave the base, the exit from which the enemy mined, all your ships are gouged for the reason said above, TIME! TIME solves everything! Therefore, the man admired the promotional video, and wrote an article that is more advertising than solving the problem of mine clearance.
              1. +7
                5 February 2019 10: 39
                You have voices in your head, the article says in Russian letters that all these methods do not work in a real war with massive mining.

                Until the end you must read before commenting.
                1. -1
                  5 February 2019 10: 39
                  The article says that is expensive.
                  1. +5
                    5 February 2019 12: 23
                    The article is written
                    There is not a single country where at least someone would calculate the economics of a mine war and came to the logical conclusion that it would not be possible to make the right amount of disposable destroyers.

                    Further logic does not work?

                    And, going back to the beginning - where is the advertisement?
                    1. -3
                      5 February 2019 12: 44
                      It looks like the logic is missing from you. Give a quote from the text and it says that it’s expensive (why can’t it be done in the right amount, laziness?). Advertising because the text is taken from the college website, which either justifies the grant (report), or is done to receive a grant (development funds), + video advertising, than not advertising? .
                      1. -3
                        5 February 2019 12: 44
                        Or are you hurt by the words advertising?
                      2. +1
                        5 February 2019 13: 53
                        Have you at least read the article, "Letinant"?
                      3. +1
                        5 February 2019 17: 32
                        Quote: Scaffold
                        Have you at least read the article, "Letinant"?

                        He read advertisements in the "windows". lol
      2. +1
        5 February 2019 17: 28
        Quote: letinant
        Yes, this article is nonsense, all advertising crap.

        An article about the fact that neglect of mine warfare can lead to serious consequences. Mine warfare is especially effective when the theater of operations is not in the open waters of the World Ocean, but in relatively narrow water spaces. The Russian Navy, which has two "sealed" fleets (Black Sea and Baltic) and two "half-open" (Pacific and Northern), all the more it’s impossible to ignore mine action. hi
    4. +7
      5 February 2019 12: 36
      Quote: tasha
      Here is the answer. Expensive.

      The cost of a non-contact anti-submarine sea mine Captor 377000 dollars https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captor_(min)
      Trawling is very, very expensive, an order of magnitude more expensive than the cost of the minefield itself.
      1km long Faroe-Icelandic minefield
      1620 km wide Faroe-Icelandic minefield
      2km deep Faroe-Icelandic minefield
      3240km3 minefield volume length*width*depth
      0,1km average distance between mines in an underwater minefield
      10m radius of destruction of one non-nuclear mine
      1000pcs/km3 (n) number of mines in 1km3 of sea water (concentration of mines in a minefield)
      3,24E+06 total number of mines in a minefield
      314m2 (s) sectional area of ​​the affected area with one mine in m2
      0,000314km2 (s) sectional area of ​​the impact area of ​​one mine in km2
      3,18 km l=1/(n*s) length of the path under water until the first collision with a mine in a minefield
      377 $/year price cost of 000,00 mine, taking into account its replacement after 1 year
      1,22E+12 $/year
      Conclusion: The budget needed to mine the Faroe-Icelandic border of the United States will not be pulled
      1. 0
        5 February 2019 19: 18
        After all, they would not need to mine ALL. They had to create minefields that would force our ships and boats to move into the aisles between them, and there they would have been waiting for them.

        It is time.

        In mining, there would be more than Captors. These are two.

        314m2 (s) sectional area of ​​the affected area with one mine in m2
        0,000314km2 (s) sectional area of ​​the impact area of ​​one mine in km2


        An error in the calculations that led you to the wrong conclusion. Recheck yourself.
        1. +3
          5 February 2019 23: 39
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          and there they would have been waiting.
          It is unreasonable to create a group of waiting ships near the passage between minefields, because their increased concentration in a narrow aisle is itself a convenient target, with one blow you can hit several units at once. If there is not continuous mining, but with passes, then the probability of successfully passing the Faroe-Icelandic boundary will obviously increase in comparison with the option of continuous mining. In addition, the enemy does not seem to have a mine with minrepoes 1..3 km long, and without them a mine will not stand in one place for a long time - it will carry away by currents, the Gulf Stream. Tell me what error in the calculations you saw:
          10m=0,01km underwater mine radius
          0,000314km2 cross-sectional area of ​​the affected area s = pi * R ^ 2
          1. 0
            6 February 2019 12: 41
            Tell me what error in the calculations you saw:
            10m=0,01km underwater mine radius


            Keptor is a mine torpedo. The range of the target's notch and start-up is about 1000 meters, depending on the conditions it can vary. Next torpedo chasing submarines.

            Order numbers see? Where you take 10, really ...)))))
            1. +1
              6 February 2019 18: 49
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              Captor is a mine torpedo.
              With a deployment depth of 230-400 m, the deepening of the Captor mine is equal to half the depth of the place, and at depths of 460 m it is 305 m, which is close to the limit. Those. at depths greater than 305m the Captor cannot be placed - it will be crushed by water pressure. A torpedo from a Captor fires vertically upward. And Poseidon walks at depths of more than 500 m, i.e. a shot from Captor will not fall into Poseidon - it is lower. In addition, Poseidon, walking at low speed, is practically impossible to detect with passive sonar from a distance of more than 10 m, it makes too little noise. Poseidon will detect active sonar direction finding from the distance from which sound waves of the direction finder reflected from the Poseidon case are not detected by the enemy sonar, as Poseidon has too small a hydroacoustic effective dispersion surface. In this regard, Poseidon is similar to the B2 Spirit stealth - that one also has a small EPR. It is also impossible to detect Poseidon magnetometers - for sure, he has a titanium or carbon fiber (12C) non-magnetic case. Therefore, a hypothetical mine (the United States does not have such deep-sea mines with minrels several kilometers long) has a strike radius of 10 m, at which the pressure of the shock wave of an underwater explosion of a TNT ball with a diameter of 1 m can still be dangerous.
              1. +4
                6 February 2019 19: 45
                Two questions for you:
                1) Why do you think that "Poseidon" will always walk at depths of about 1000 m?
                2) Why do you think that the Americans have only Captor in service?
                Mina Captor is yesterday. And today, it is an LSM type mine with an Mk.50 torpedo as a warhead. Torpedo Mk.50 - stroke depth up to 900 m, maximum speed - about 50 (officially, not officially, - about 60 knots.) Agree, quite wow characteristics ... that make you wonder if Poseidon is really invulnerable, how are they trying to sell it to us? There is also a self-loading mine "Hunter" with a torpedo "Stingray" as a warhead, the characteristics, though more modest, but the same is quite at a decent level. And what prevents the Americans from deploying hydrophone fields in the most threatening directions? The circulating coolant pumps in the Poseidon nuclear reactor are probably not silent. If there is cooling, then there will be a heat trail. The SURTASS system finally ...
                1. +1
                  6 February 2019 20: 54
                  Quote: Brylevsky
                  Why do you think that Poseidon will always walk at depths of about 1000 m?

                  1) Poseidon will walk at depths from 0 to 1 km and even deeper. He can’t fly yet, but he digs into the depths to (-10m) under the seabed - who knows ..
                  2) One of the goals of Poseidon is to force the enemy to spend the budget on the deployment of expensive countermeasures. He had already hit this target, not even leaving the port. Hydrophone fields have long power cables that are sensitive to EMP, and this probably prevents them from being deployed.
                  1. +3
                    7 February 2019 07: 51
                    1) Poseidon will walk at depths from 0 to 1 km and even deeper.

                    In the depth range from 0 to 900 meters, it will be vulnerable to anti-submarine mines, examples I gave above.
                    He can’t fly yet, but he digs into the depths to (-10m) under the seabed - who knows ..

                    It won't bury itself ... The nuclear reactor needs cooling. All offshore nuclear installations are cooled with abstracted water ... If the apparatus is buried, the soil will fall into the pump and refrigerator ... Will the "Snorkel" expose? Rather, it will be able to navigate the bottom using rollers, like the well-known Losharik deep-sea boat. The only question is - why the heck?
                    One of Poseidon’s goals is to force the enemy to spend the budget on the deployment of expensive countermeasures.

                    Oh yes ... our answer is "SOI". With a delay of almost 30 years ... Svetlana, you, apparently, are not a stupid person. You will be able to understand that the invulnerability of "Poseidon" is for the electorate and the "Youth Army". There is nothing absolute in nature, especially in technology. Even if today there are no adequate means of counteraction (which I personally doubt, the reasons are higher), this does not mean that they will not exist tomorrow. In an extreme case, the Americans will simply copy the idea of ​​"Poseidon" and give us a mirror answer, and this will be the real end for the country's economy, just look at the standard of living in the country and the state of the Navy, here and there.
                    Hydrophone fields have long power cables that are sensitive to EMP, and this probably prevents them from being deployed.

                    What electromagnetic pulse is possible in seawater?
                    1. +1
                      7 February 2019 10: 51
                      Quote: Brylevsky
                      What electromagnetic pulse is possible in seawater?

                      The spectrum of EMP wavelengths can be wide - from fractions of millimeters up to the ultra-long wavelength range of radio waves. Ultra-long radio waves are able to pass through sea water. An example - auroras under the action of high-energy particles in the ionosphere from solar flares, can last several seconds, minutes or hours and cause serious malfunctions in power systems and power supply of hydrophone fields, especially since power cables from hydrophones go ashore.
                      1. 0
                        7 February 2019 11: 54
                        Is a nuclear explosion capable of generating ultra-long-wavelength EMP? Please understand me correctly, but I have never seen auroras in Norfolk, or in Los Angeles, or in San Francisco, although I have been there many times. And the old, good screening of electronic equipment in this case does not work?
                      2. +1
                        7 February 2019 14: 53
                        Quote: Brylevsky
                        I have never seen auroras neither in Norfolk, nor in Los Angeles, nor in San Francisco
                        Here's a photo specially for you of polar auroras over Hawaii and Johnson Atoll (south of Los Angeles):

                        https://nk.org.ua/geopolitika/ispyitaniya-yadernogo-orujiya-v-kosmose-100641

                        A nuclear glow was visible on Wake Island at a distance of 2200 kilometers, on Kwajalein Atoll (2600 kilometers), and even in New Zealand, 7000 kilometers south of Johnston.

                        https://zvezdaweekly.ru/news/t/2018271346-oB7mG.html
                        In synchronous nuclear explosives, the B-field can be compressed
                      3. 0
                        7 February 2019 15: 13
                        Well, well ... perhaps auroral phenomena are indeed possible in mid-latitudes. I am not a meteorologist, so I will not argue about this. Nevertheless, I wanted, as far as possible, to figure out for myself: how is this phenomenon capable of damaging the hydrophone fields? It is clear that a powerful electromagnetic pulse causes pick-up currents in electronic equipment, but if it is shielded and the screen is grounded, then how? I may not know or don’t understand something ... perhaps you know and / or understand more. Tell me, do not consider it work, where am I mistaken?
                      4. +1
                        7 February 2019 16: 37
                        Quote: Brylevsky
                        a powerful electromagnetic pulse causes pick-up currents in electronic equipment, but if it is shielded and the screen is grounded, then how?

                        The fact is that a magnetic field has a greater penetrating ability than an electric one. To penetrate through the grounded screens, the near-Earth magnetic B-field is pressed to the Earth by plasma in the front of the shock waves of near-Earth nuclear explosions. They rake it in a heap from near-earth space to the surface of the earth (water), like a bulldozer blade shovels snow. The B-field is amplified by several tens of times. When amplified, the B-field lines begin to cross long electric cables. Current is induced in the cables. Then the lines of force reconnect due to the instability of the compressed B-field (and it behaves like a compressed spring, ready to straighten out and shoot at a convenient opportunity). The B-field abruptly decreases and in long electric cables with high inductance, an "extra current of opening" is induced, leading to overvoltage and insulation breakdown.
                      5. 0
                        7 February 2019 16: 43
                        Yes ... that's for sure - live a century, learn a century (and you will die a fool). Thanks for the science. Can you recommend reading something on this subject? I mean, about using this property of a magnetic field.
                      6. +1
                        7 February 2019 21: 06
                        Quote: Brylevsky
                        read something
                        On this subject there is a book by J. Dungey (JW Dungey) Space electrodynamics. Moscow, 1961, translation editor D.A. Frank Kamenetsky
                      7. +1
                        8 February 2019 03: 33
                        Thank you.
                      8. +5
                        8 February 2019 04: 09
                        You deserve the pros.
              2. 0
                6 February 2019 23: 13
                Moreover, the slow-moving Poseidon is practically impossible to detect with passive sonar tools from a distance of more than 10, it makes too little noise.


                It makes noise once in 20 louder than the Premier League, there is no small move there.
                1. 0
                  12 February 2019 02: 02
                  Did you personally measure it, Timokhin, and I suppose in all modes?
  3. +2
    5 February 2019 06: 03
    This is a mine destroyer, an apparatus that undermines a mine and dies. I must say that they are very worth a lot.

    Not quite right. The mine destroyer delivers a charge to it and then produces an explosion, it itself is not destroyed like a kamikaze.
    There is no country where there would be at least twenty modern minesweepers.

    Because in this class of ships there is no point. An anti-mine module is installed on the ship (corvette, frigate, destroyer, UDC) and the ship is capable of conducting mine action.
    The water area of ​​the port and the shipping lane are simply regularly inspected by autonomous vehicles, the bottom map is checked and any detected anomaly is checked thoroughly. If you regularly conduct mapping, then any mine will be identified and destroyed.
    Therefore, the author’s claim that
    Moreover, there is not a single country where they would seriously ask themselves the question: “what will we do if there are not tens, but thousands of mines on the way”?

    Absolutely contrived. For NATO countries, the issue of mine protection is at the forefront and there are enough means to maintain it.
    1. 0
      5 February 2019 10: 09
      I answered you above what you are wrong. Regarding the modules - yes, everything is so, and not only that. This will be in the next part.

      Regular inspections work against any Hussites, but the peer enemy will crack such defenses as hello, moreover, with some failures of the defender with mine, simply fantastic results can be achieved, but this is in the next section.
      1. +3
        5 February 2019 11: 38
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        but peer enemy breaks into such a defense as hello

        An example, please!
        1. 0
          5 February 2019 12: 44
          You are an officer, Sergey!
          Well, think a bit.
          Imagine that this task was cut for you.
          What forces and means will you need?
          1. +3
            5 February 2019 13: 23
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            You are an officer, Sergey!

            Setting mines in modern times, it’s not at all like in the 1941 year!
            You probably know about such things as MGK-608, Volkhov, Amur, Liman? I hope you understand why "Zaliv" is building KSS Volga and Vyatka?
            1. 0
              5 February 2019 19: 19
              That's when they do it, when it turns out that l / s is serious about the issue, and not as always, then we will discuss it.

              In general, we have in Russia a very clever concept, someone else would have put it into the head of the command. In the next part lay out.
    2. +5
      5 February 2019 11: 36
      Quote: Puncher
      An anti-mine module is installed on the ship (corvette, frigate, destroyer, UDC) and the ship is capable of conducting mine action.

      Yes, it is capable of carrying out such trawling, but only for personal purposes for its own access to the sea! Volumetric (full) trawling takes a lot of time and effort, and besides, trawling just needs specialized ships with a professional specialized crew!
      1. 0
        5 February 2019 12: 25
        We'll have to put on the ships such modkli, there is no choice. And it is precisely to solve the problem of its own access to the sea.
        And we will have a warhead-3 really "mine and torpedo", without reservations.

        Among other things.
  4. +2
    5 February 2019 08: 17
    Carpet bombing by deep bombs. For making passages in minefields.
  5. The comment was deleted.
    1. +3
      5 February 2019 10: 13
      Not only in the Barents.
    2. +3
      5 February 2019 11: 39
      Quote from rudolf
      there is no doubt that night blindness involved in naval construction and planning.

      If everything were so simple, Rudolph !!!
      hi Hello Red Wolf!
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. +3
          5 February 2019 13: 44
          Quote from rudolf
          Since when did I become red?

          laughing Ay yay! Ore Wolf ... hope I don’t need a translation?
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. +3
              5 February 2019 14: 26
              laughing Well, just for you !!!
              hi Hello Red Wolf!
  6. 0
    5 February 2019 09: 12
    And how many modern mines in a minefield will remain operational after undermining a tactical nuclear charge in the center of this field?
    1. 0
      6 February 2019 13: 48
      It depends on the type of fuse and since they are mostly not contact, a lot
  7. +1
    5 February 2019 09: 30
    Judging by the description of the mines, they are not so cheap. just a tin with a charge is one thing. and a mine with a guard and almost jeepies guided by another is expensive at times. and the main question nevertheless is what then to do with these fields. war will end sooner or later and the fields will remain. this can lead to a complete halt in shipping, which means a victory will be a feast. and for the same amers shipping is the basis of their existence. therefore, no one will mine everything in a row. and why not.
    1. 0
      5 February 2019 09: 38
      They planned to mine all the same.

      For other reasons - that's why I write that no one is ready.
      1. 0
        5 February 2019 09: 52
        perhaps they calculated the consequences of mine clearance and refused because of the same danger to both strangers and their own
        1. 0
          5 February 2019 10: 23
          No, it just happened.
    2. 0
      5 February 2019 10: 01
      Quote: Eremin AV
      and a mine with a guard and almost jeepies guided by another is expensive at times.

      The American ground mine is just a classic 2000 pound bomb with only the MK 70 TDD non-fuse, plus in-flight controls with a GPS sensor. There is nothing particularly expensive there.
      Quote: Eremin AV
      the main question is still what to do with these fields

      All mines are equipped with a sensor for multiplicity and urgency. Those. after a certain period, the mine is deactivated.
      1. +1
        5 February 2019 10: 03
        Yeah, deactivated. fascist won still pop up periodically. any sensor can fail and then the mine becomes dangerous for absolutely everyone.
        1. +2
          5 February 2019 10: 23
          This is completely different.
        2. +4
          5 February 2019 17: 52
          any sensor can fail and then the mine becomes dangerous for absolutely everyone.

          В the mines had no sensors. An ordinary anchor mine, simple and effective to the point of disgrace ... We had the same, therefore, until the mid-90s, almost the entire coast of Primorye was replete with the words "Area dangerous from mines" on the maps. This despite the fact that these mines were placed by the Pacific Fleet, respectively, there were maps of mine laying ... When, after 1945, mines began to be removed, some were missing: put, say, 50 pieces, and eliminated 49 ... possibly. Since it was often impossible to find the "fugitive", the former minefield was designated on the maps as a "dangerous area" and was closed for swimming ... In the mid-90s, when, according to calculations, everything valiantly "lost" should already was completely substandard, the areas were opened for swimming. And then an incident came out: fishermen en masse flooded into the former closed areas. Not the ones with motorboat lucky ones ... Normal, industrial fishermen with trawls, seines and crab traps ... Well, it began ... it was natural. First one, then the other, they began to pull out in their nets the rusted through and through "echo of war". It got to the point that the naval authorities issued special instructions on how to behave and what to do if such a "gift of fate" is found in their networks: the fact is that mines were placed not only by us, but also by the Japanese. If everything was clear with our mines, there were no "pits" among them, then we could expect anything from Japanese mines. However, time takes its toll and there was not a single case of detonation.
      2. +1
        5 February 2019 10: 24
        The main thing for amers is not ground mines, but captors. Taking into account our roll in the underfloat especially.
      3. 0
        5 February 2019 10: 37
        flight controls with GPS sensor.


        One only it under 40 kilobaksov costs, by the way.
        1. +2
          5 February 2019 14: 27
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          One only it under 40 kilobaksov costs, by the way.

          GPS sensors do not imply a word at all. GPS is such a radio receiver, and DSP is specialized for decryption. The navigation equipment itself costs just three orders of magnitude less, 40 bucks. Here is the management of the baeprice probably something worth it. But what difference is GPS or not, at least television or inertial. By the way, here is inertial, with its laser gyroscopes, it can and will cost 40 kilobax. And more than one normal person does not attach a radio-dependent control system to ammunition oriented to use in a global war, with its long-range nuclear explosions. GPS for the fight against blacks is conceived, like GLONASS, both of them work only before the outbreak of the global war.
          1. 0
            5 February 2019 19: 20
            The navigation equipment itself costs just three orders of magnitude less, 40 bucks.


            The JDAM EMNIP Kit costs as much.
            1. +2
              6 February 2019 07: 00
              Do you think that it includes only GPS? Precise mechanics are two orders of magnitude more expensive than the default electronic. It makes no sense to sculpt the simplest Pribluda in the form of a satellite receiver (an antenna on a printed circuit board, one receiver microcircuit and one processor) to an exact electromechanical device. Everything is more serious there with control, both with a bomb and an airplane. I’m telling you as a design engineer of these same electronic Pribluds. smile
              1. 0
                6 February 2019 12: 54
                There GPS (NAVSTAR) and ins. Plus an electronic control unit, with a data entry subsystem, actuators, etc., all this is done by military standards.

                In total, just dozens of kilobaksov and go and it is still God-like.
                1. +1
                  6 February 2019 16: 11
                  So the point is that the GPS signal receiving system itself, in all this wealth, costs the least, but here is the rapaiana most. There are also FPGAs used, thousands of perpetually killed raccoons apiece. Xilinx or Altera, and even everything from AD. Strongly in these two points we lag behind them by the way. Yes, not only we, everyone is behind. If the Chinese still have FPGAs and saw, then Analog Devices is unattainable for them, as for us. Admittedly, this office is ahead of the rest. From here the legs of all the Javelins and Spikes grow there.
                  1. +1
                    6 February 2019 21: 03
                    I wrote about the price of the kit as a whole, and not the GPS module. For the rest - it is clear and it would be surprising if everything was different.
      4. +4
        5 February 2019 17: 20
        All mines are equipped with a sensor for multiplicity and urgency.

        In our mines, this sensor is called "device". "Multiplicity device" and "urgency device". And their functional purpose is somewhat different ... The multiplicity device provides a "blank" operation of the proximity fuse of the mine; the device of urgency maintains a specified time interval, after which the equipment of the proximity fuse (or separator) is powered and the mine becomes dangerous. Some types of mines were equipped with a self-kill, some were not ... It is technically easy to ensure that the mine explodes on command or is transferred from one mode of operation to another by means of a cable (when defending naval bases) or via a hydroacoustic communication channel (when the cable cannot be used), which it has been done for a long time.
    3. +4
      5 February 2019 17: 01
      war will end sooner or later and the fields will remain.

      This is if mines are placed in the 30-40s of the last century. A sea mine can be switched to combat mode for a long time, and when necessary - to a "sleep" mode by means of hydracoustic communication. To blow up, respectively, the same ... Progress does not stand still and old mines are being modernized for new tasks. Only the body remains old ...
    4. 0
      5 February 2019 23: 31
      In the United States they solve problems as they arrive, first they create the Taliban then ... create Alkaida ... then they create ISIS. In World War 2, mines were thrown without an account and will continue to arrive ...
  8. +1
    5 February 2019 10: 11
    Mines are powerful and, apart from combat, also have a huge moral effect - "fear of mine". The increase in the number of sweeping forces should go in three directions: 1-construction of specialized sweeping ships, 2-creation of "anti-mine" kits, search and destruction of mines suitable for installation on low-tonnage civil ships of different classes. 3-training of civilian specialists to work on ships converted for mine action.
    1. +1
      5 February 2019 10: 24
      This is true, but fast trawling is not ensured anyway. The bill will go to the clock.
      1. 0
        5 February 2019 17: 13
        Then the alignment along the minefield for two periods, .- the first on the piercing of the fairway along the wake exits at the place of passage. The second one is to clean the entire field for a long time ... So the first thing is to provide passageways, here the options are different, from without crewed boats to detection tools. destruction, bypassing on ships ... It is possible to launch traps in front of the ship (like a lure on a pike) for mines ... (Idle hopes) ...
        1. +4
          5 February 2019 18: 49
          It is possible to launch traps in front of the ship

          These traps are called "mine breakers". The most effective means of overcoming sea minefields ...
          1. 0
            5 February 2019 19: 23
            Citizen! You do not spoil my intrigue here)))) It’s necessary that someone read the second part!

            Breakers, of course. Well, not only they. Now their way, no.
            1. +4
              6 February 2019 02: 10
              Sorry, could not resist. Mine-torpedo theme is close to me. Once related to her ...
            2. 0
              6 February 2019 10: 03
              Is this a remotely controlled ship?
              1. 0
                6 February 2019 12: 43
                Yes.

                But shhhhhh! Spoil me everything.
  9. BAI
    +2
    5 February 2019 10: 52
    It was reported that the Gulf states used the following technology for mine clearance: dolphins searched for suspicious objects, identified them from a remote-controlled underwater vehicle, and if it was a mine, people neutralized it.
  10. +9
    5 February 2019 11: 23
    Let's leave the phenomenon of mass blindness to psychologists

    laughing Alexander, as always, in his repertoire "I am alone, D, Artanyan"!
    The PMO topic is quite interesting and interesting in that the development of mine weapons is an order of magnitude ahead of the development of anti-mine forces! Moreover, it is simply not ethical to call all mediocrity indiscriminately!
    Let's start with the story again ...
    This page from the 80's US Naval Strategy compilation released by the Naval College in Newport shows where the US planned to mine

    Regarding Captor. They planned what they planned, but they didn’t allow the opportunity (377 thousand Baku People apiece), and the reliability of this thing did not inspire hope for the American admirals!
    This method allows you to first save the carrier aircraft from air defense fire

    what Alexander, I have a feeling that you have something to do with Maxim Klimov! Or blindly copy his "fabrications"! B-52H takes on board a maximum of 20 Mk 64, bottom mines are placed at a depth of 10-20 meters !!!! Now we turn on your brains, Alexander! Where in the aisles of the Russian Federation the sea depths of 10-20 meters are located at a distance that ensures that the B-52H does not enter the Russian air defense zone ??????
    The ships of the 12700 project, which began to enter the fleet recently, unfortunately, will not justify themselves

    In short, Alexander, there’s not much desire to comment on all your stations on a mine topic ..... because ..... you approached the topic one-sidedly, I would say politicized, sticking out the niggas and keeping silent about the positive !!!
    As far as I know, the adoption of the BEC Typhoon-680 complete with HBO "Neman-500", TNPA RTM-500 is being discussed. As for the container STIUM "Makeevka", after the Moscow Region's litigation against Gidropribor and the measures taken, I hope the issue with "Makeevka" will be resolved. At the International Military-Technical Forum Army-2018, the Samara Polytechnic presented NPA "Glideron", the price and performance characteristics of which were very interested in the RF Ministry of Defense!
    hi Good luck in the war with the Russian Federation!
    1. +4
      5 February 2019 11: 34
      "and our hero is handsome and daring ...." great, warrior! hi
      1. +2
        5 February 2019 11: 44
        hi Healthy, healthy suppressor "green"!
    2. +4
      5 February 2019 11: 48
      Sergei hi My dolphins collected all the mines. wink "Glideron" to the landfill, let them run in.
      1. +2
        5 February 2019 11: 57
        hi And you do not get sick, namesake!
      2. +2
        5 February 2019 11: 59
        dolphin driver came along with a penguin driver lol
        1. +4
          5 February 2019 12: 05
          We didn’t even stutter about the penguins, there’s nothing for us to attribute to someone else’s herd.
    3. +1
      5 February 2019 12: 37
      As far as I know, the adoption of the BEC Typhoon-680 complete with HBO "Neman-500", TNPA RTM-500 is being discussed.


      But how can it be that we are building minesweepers, but there is no anti-mine equipment for them, eh? How can you "discuss" what should have been done 15 years ago? This is precisely the indicator of something in our country.

      As regards the container STIUM "Makeevka", after the lawsuits of the Ministry of Defense against Gidropribor and the measures taken, I hope the issue with "Makeyevka" will be resolved.


      Do you understand that there are several sets of equipment left from Mayevka and that's all? Even the company is dismissed from work!
      She will now have to start production as IL-76, through reverse engineering. Do you think it will do? Come on...

      At the International Military-Technical Forum Army-2018, the Samara Polytechnic presented NPA "Glideron", the price and performance characteristics of which were very interested in the RF Ministry of Defense!


      Fine! In twenty years it will be possible to launch the series if the MoD continues to work on the topic just as it is now!
    4. 0
      5 February 2019 12: 42
      Or blindly copy his "fabrications"! B-52H takes on board a maximum of 20 Mk 64, bottom mines are placed at a depth of 10-20 meters !!!! Now we turn on your brains, Alexander! Where in the aisles of the Russian Federation the sea depth of 10-20 meters is located at a distance that ensures that the B-52H does not enter the Russian air defense zone ??????


      Do you understand that mining is not an isolated operation? That some aircraft attack the identified positions of the air defense missile system with cruise missiles, others approach at low altitude so as to be above the drop point just when the CD will cover the long-range air defense system. In this case, the ability to fire will be retained only by different "Wasps", "Shells", etc. But from them, the range of the carrier quite helps.

      I made a slide, dropped the load, went back down, before I would have to do it 10 km from the "Wasp" or "Thor", and now at 40.

      Well, one plane for mining no one will send, do not even think. wink

      And most importantly - it may not be B-52.
      1. +2
        5 February 2019 13: 34
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        That some planes attack the detected positions of air defense systems with cruise missiles, while others approach at low altitude so as to be above the discharge point

        I understand that at this time all the calculations of all sorts of "Voronezh", "Donov", "Sunflowers", A-50 at this time together checking drink who awl, who the sword and devak paw ????
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Well, one plane for mining no one will send, do not even think.

        Oooh !!!! So you still go there and the crowd want to break ???
        1. +4
          5 February 2019 14: 52
          Quote: Serg65
          Oooh !!!! So you still go there and the crowd want to break ???

          Here another interesting thing: if the USAF were able to allocate forces capable of suppressing the air defense of an SSBN base, then why should they engage in mining approaches? Isn't it easier to work on the base itself - UABs from the same "fifteen hundred"? smile

          Nevertheless, the issue of mining approaches remains. Just the mine carrier will be different - ICAPL with self-transporting mines. Imperceptibly approached, launched mines and left. smile Given the extinction of the OVR and the prospective amount of TS-IM in the fleet, this is an almost win-win scenario.
          1. 0
            5 February 2019 19: 25
            This was planned in 80-x, where the risk for planes was too high, mines would be placed submarines. And where the air defenses could have been choked, they would massively throw air from there.
        2. 0
          6 February 2019 12: 51
          Oooh !!!! So you still go there and the crowd want to break ???


          Well yes. Massive air strike, with the release of a number of forces for mining.
    5. +4
      5 February 2019 18: 36
      bottom mines are placed at a depth of 10-20 meters !!!!

      As far as I remember (too lazy to climb into the notes), even a mossy Soviet bottom mine UDM is placed at depths of up to 50 m.And there are also RM-1 and RM-2 mines, which the same can be attributed to the category of bottom (1,5 m mines, it's not serious), and there the same is far from 20 meters deep ... In the end, there is a "Hunter" with hundreds of meters above it ... What warhead did you serve in?
    6. 0
      6 February 2019 18: 51
      Quote: Serg65
      At the International Military-Technical Forum Army-2018, the Samara Polytechnic presented NPA "Glideron", the price and performance characteristics of which were very interested in the RF Ministry of Defense!

      wassat
      excuse me, but this "Hleideron" mines what "that" will be? - by boat or quadcopter? lol
      "glideron" is actually a toy
      the link is just about Samara:
      https://vpk.name/news/164550_tehnicheskii_avantyurizm_ili_zdravyii_smyisl_nuzhnyi_li_glaideryi_vmf.html
      see and the link itself and comments
      Quote: Serg65
      BEC Typhoon-680 complete with HBO "Neman-500", TNPA RTM-500

      no development stage was carried out on it
      PM
  11. +3
    5 February 2019 11: 44
    In the last two world wars, approximately one million sea mines were used, in the first world war - more than 300 thousand and in the second - about 650 thousand
    During the Second World War, nearly 4000 were sunk by mines and about 8000 warships and various ships were damaged.
    But this does not yet say "that mines are the most effective weapon against ships," here the author hastened.
    In total, during the war years, Britain and the Allies lost 5150 ships, of which 2714 were Baltic ships, the rest belonged to the Allies and neutral countries. Of these, 534 vessels, or 10,4%, were lost from mines.
    But the submarines sank 2828 ships, or 55%. The data is in the public domain. "The Flag of St. George: The English Navy in World War II". Posted by Stephen Roskill.
    According to the press, in the arsenals of at least 50 states (not including the United States and Russia) there are over 250 thousand sea mines of more than 300 types. Over 30 countries are capable of producing mines, and more than 20 are their exporters. This type of weapon is in service with major maritime powers and developing countries.
    And everyone is well aware of the possibilities of this weapon. And they are working out the tactics and strategy of both application and protection, it is enough to publish a publication on the American Autonomous Non-Contact Trawling System (UISS - Unmanned Influence Sweep System).
    And for the author, all themes, even interesting ones, are reduced to one plot - "everyone around is tolerant, I am the only musketeer."
    1. 0
      5 February 2019 12: 32
      Of these, the ship’s 534, or 10,4%, was lost from mines.


      And the outfit of forces allocated to mining and underwater war comparable? Expenses? Mobilized l / s? Losses? Time spent on mining and underwater war?

      The most effective is about specific indicators, if that. Imagine, for a second, that the Germans invented a snorkel and a self-propelled mine in 42.

      Here are some surprises for someone.

      And everyone is well aware of the possibilities of this weapon. And they are working out the tactics and strategy of both application and protection, it is enough to publish a publication on the American Autonomous Non-Contact Trawling System (UISS - Unmanned Influence Sweep System).


      Well, this is a fairy tale, if the US is still working out something (which will be in the second part), then the rest, to put it mildly, so far, are picking their nose more. Especially the Russian Federation this concerns.
      Yes, and the Americans with their 11-th minesweepers and hacked program RMMV to think about.
      Although, I repeat, they at least do something, practically the only ones in the world.
      1. +1
        5 February 2019 14: 11
        Yes, and the Americans with their 11-th minesweepers and hacked program RMMV to think about.
        Americans have nothing to fear. They are able to control areas of possible mine installations and simply will not allow mining approaches to naval bases and ports. NATO has no adversary at sea today. So here the principle of reasonable sufficiency applies.
        1. 0
          5 February 2019 19: 26
          This is a very big mistake to think so. Highly.
          1. +1
            5 February 2019 19: 51
            Well this is very, very! Yes! Yes! But no!
            1. 0
              5 February 2019 20: 52
              Well, let me outline the introduction to you - mining from a civilian container ship.

              This is an example.

              Further think?
              1. +2
                5 February 2019 22: 42
                Firstly, such an operation from a "civil" ship is impossible in principle, since the ship,
                performing mining, loses immunity civil.
                Secondly, such an operation leads to a violation of so many international legal acts that the state that carried it out immediately becomes an outcast.
                In addition, in wartime your "container ships" will sink even on the way to the mining areas, unless you try to mine under the guise of "neutrals", but you cannot equip such "mine container ships" in a day. it is necessary to prepare in advance a certain number of courts, which will obviously have a "neutral status" in a future conflict. do you think this is an easy task?
                In addition, if a non-military object can be blown up on your mines, then you must notify about the mine setting.
                In a word - es ist fantastisch.
                1. +1
                  6 February 2019 11: 34
                  Quote: Decimam
                  Firstly, such an operation from a "civil" ship is impossible in principle, since the ship,
                  performing mining, loses immunity civil.
                  Secondly, such an operation leads to a violation of so many international legal acts that the state that carried it out immediately becomes an outcast.

                  PMSM, a landmine on approaches to Bangor or Norflock, questions immunity of civil courts and their own "outcast" somehow no longer worries. smile
                  1. +1
                    6 February 2019 11: 53
                    Can you explain the meaning of your maxim?
                    1. +1
                      6 February 2019 13: 17
                      Quote: Decimam
                      Can you explain the meaning of your maxim?

                      Very simple - look who is based on these naval bases. This is the same as mining the exits from Gadzhievo or Vilyuchinsk - after such a question of some "international law" no one will worry anymore.
                      1. +1
                        6 February 2019 13: 29
                        And how often do "civilian dry cargo ships" of other countries go there?
                      2. +6
                        6 February 2019 14: 00
                        And how often do "civilian dry cargo ships" of other countries go there?

                        Where? To Norfolk? Stop by regularly. He himself was there many times when he worked on container ships. Norfolk, this is not only the base of the US Atlantic fleet, but also a large port, there are enough civilian ships there.
                      3. +1
                        6 February 2019 14: 05
                        And there are carriers and container carriers mixed up at the berths?
                      4. +7
                        6 February 2019 14: 12
                        Of course not. Just to get to container terminals, you have to go along the entire naval base, there is no other way. So I had to watch their fleet in all its glory ... impressive. From the base to the terminal, where we went, 15 minutes of full maneuverability. Everything is close there ... But it is, by the way. No claim to your comment.
                      5. +1
                        6 February 2019 14: 18
                        Your comment is very welcome, as a person representing the subject of discussion.
                        In your opinion, in wartime there will also be bulk carriers of states with which the United States is at war fighting freely?
                      6. +4
                        6 February 2019 14: 30
                        smile it depends on what kind of war will be. If "to the last Russian" or "to the last American", then of course not. Of course, they will not walk freely ... they still do not fly there under the Russian flag. Until recently, I worked "under the flag" in a Japanese shipping company and in Norfolk I saw all sorts of flags on ships, except for the Russian flag, although we, it seems, are not at war with them ... And if the upcoming world war becomes a war of clans , then anything can be. "Everything is so complicated, everything is so confusing ..."
                      7. +1
                        6 February 2019 14: 38
                        That is, if we proceed from the real situation, then the idea of ​​the author of the article about "mining from dry cargo ships" is a utopia. If you fantasize on the theme of "universal armageddian" - then you can come up with something more abruptly. For example - "dry cargo kamikaze" with a 50 - megaton thermonuclear filling.
                      8. +5
                        6 February 2019 14: 59
                        I think it can be done in any way. The main thing is for what (for whom), and for what (by whom). The author's words about "mining from dry cargo ships" are not without foundation. In Soviet times, there was ... I do not know how to say ... a project is not a project, a scheme is not a scheme ... in general, in 72 hours the ship repair enterprise had to convert a large freezer fishing trawler into ... a minelayer. There were, in principle, not a lot of work: mine rails were welded onto the fishing deck, an anti-aircraft machine gun was put on the tank, and everything: "Farewell, Motherland!" - the newly minted mine layer had to go on its last voyage. According to this scheme, the vast majority of civil courts can be re-equipped, the only question is whether this action is advisable.
                        I didn’t hear anything about the dry-cargo kamikaze, but the projects of the host ships of the intercontinental ballistic missiles, as far as I remember, were ... In appearance, they were an ordinary timber carrier ... Radio sequencing differed from the usual one. So there is no limit to perfection wink
                      9. +2
                        6 February 2019 15: 22
                        The option of converting merchant ships into military ones was envisaged by many countries back in the century before last, for which the corresponding elements were incorporated into the design of the "traders".
                        After the WWII, the British had the ARAPAJO plan, which provided for the conversion of merchant ships for military purposes in case of war. However, it was put into action only once, during the Falkland War, when the British converted the Atlantic Conveyor container ship into a light carrier for the Harrier ATS. This ship mistakenly (under the influence of the EW of the English fleet) attacked the Argentinean Exocet rocket and sank it, making it the largest ship lost after World War II, and allowing the Argentines to claim that they sank an aircraft carrier.
                        The question is whether such a "miner-free" will be able to approach the naval base for mine laying.
                      10. +7
                        6 February 2019 16: 07
                        The question is whether such a "miner-free" will be able to approach the naval base for mine laying.
                        This is indeed an extremely serious matter. In the event of a full-scale war, with the involvement of all forces and means, I think not, it will not. At least, while it will have the flag of the country participating in the conflict and while its AIS transponder will broadcast the nationality of this vessel. An attempt to change the flag and reprogram the transponder will not work - now is not the time now, alas ... globalization, common database of ships ... So, such ships will be drowned on a par with warships. In this case, it’s more logical to attract submarines with self-mounted mines for secretive mining of enemy communications, but the number of boats and ammunition on them is extremely limited ... so it’s impossible to establish many minefields. Yes, and the boat should still be able to reach ... You do not find that a container ship or a bulk carrier will look somehow strange, on the deck of which sea mines glisten in the sun in orderly rows laughing ? Americans will immediately begin to suspect something laughing , to say the least ... So, the idea, in general, is delusional. Although, to protect against a possible landing on their own coast, such ships will be quite in place. Imagine how many "goodies" can be taken on board by far from the largest bulk carrier with a deadweight of about 30000 tons wink ? Approximately 10000 to 30000 pieces, depending on type ...
                      11. 0
                        6 February 2019 16: 30
                        The question is whether such a "miner-free" will be able to approach the naval base for mine laying.


                        If we start the war first, then yes. Full

                        Once again, I remind you, the Second World War began on June 21, on the Baltic.
                      12. +1
                        6 February 2019 19: 59
                        So you not only want to start the war first, but also offer to start military action without declaring war? Someone you remind me of this train of thought.
                      13. +1
                        6 February 2019 21: 19
                        Probably Obama, he caught up with so many terrorists in Syria that they will never be counted, in the summer of 2014 alone, 160 boards with "meat" from Libya alone by air, then my friend was thrown to another direction, and how much more they brought me there did not find out.
                        Formally, the United States seems not to be at war with Syria at all.

                        I guessed?

                        Or maybe it was Bush with Iraq? Clinton, who fired rockets at pharmaceutical plants to distract people from his pranks, bombed out a state in Europe under a false pretext to put his piece under the control of the rapist and drug dealer Hashim Tachi?
                        Also, after all, they didn’t declare war?

                        Or maybe you are talking about some other American president? About Bush Sr. and Panama?

                        You confused me by God.
                      14. +1
                        6 February 2019 21: 52
                        Do not guess. Everything revolves around the USA. The world is much wider.
                      15. 0
                        6 February 2019 23: 21
                        Ah ... and ... the Japanese in 1904. For sure.
                      16. +1
                        6 February 2019 23: 25
                        Let there be Japanese, otherwise you’ll be offended.
                  2. 0
                    6 February 2019 12: 46
                    This is the End War, the War of All Wars, there will be no time for chicking. And to all parties.
                    1. +1
                      6 February 2019 13: 22
                      So you directly indicate that you are writing in the "Fantasy about the last war" genre. And then after all, many take it at face value.
                2. 0
                  6 February 2019 12: 45
                  Firstly, such an operation from a "civil" ship is impossible in principle, since the ship,
                  performing mining, loses immunity civil.


                  Winners are not judged. When newcomers get into spetsnote there warn them that they do not fall under the convention on prisoners of war. At once. This is for you as an example.

                  Besides, this is not the only introductory one.
                  1. +1
                    6 February 2019 13: 04
                    Do you think this reasoning is serious? By the way, give an item from the "Geneva Convention", where special forces are excluded from it.
                    1. +1
                      6 February 2019 16: 33
                      You just judge life by pieces of paper. People who dress up in the enemy's uniform, or in civilian clothes, use the methods of the so-called. "intensive interrogation" in relation to the captured prisoners, can, in which case and that ...
                      Although legally it seems impossible.

                      And this is straightforward for recruits.

                      When the MTR entered the building of the Supreme Council of Crimea, they were in sports suits by the way. So a serious argument IMHO.
                      1. +1
                        6 February 2019 20: 01
                        "When the MTR entered the building of the Supreme Council of Crimea, they were in tracksuits by the way."
                        Was there a war in Crimea? Who fought with whom?
                      2. +2
                        6 February 2019 21: 22
                        That's the point, my friend.

                        There is no war, but there are special forces in tracksuits.

                        This is how the world works. And there may well be mines on the bulk carrier, but at least the nuclear charge in the container - it all depends on how high the rates are.

                        Let's say this, having communicated with the Amer, I consider from their side the transportation of portable special ammunition diaries to Moscow is quite real - the level of morality and ideas in the minds of these people were just that, and the shoulder straps are not lieutenant at all.

                        Their conscience was clear, because it was in the name of democracy, and not just like that.

                        They even had fun talking about it.

                        So the mines on the bulk carrier with the Liberian flag are flowers.
                      3. 0
                        6 February 2019 21: 57
                        Yes, my friend, communication with amers obviously didn’t benefit you. The world has become an embrasure through which only Americans are seen attacking you. Well, fight, I will not distract.
  12. +3
    5 February 2019 13: 15
    The negative mood of the article is incomprehensible. Indeed, it follows from it that countries for which the military and transport fleets are of strategic importance will be the first to suffer from sea mines. Europe, USA, Japan, China ... We are not on the side here, our business is small - to rivet mines and in case of enemy aggression to instruct them more and wherever possible.
    1. +5
      5 February 2019 18: 11
      from landmines, countries for which the military and transport fleets are of strategic importance will be the first to suffer. Europe, USA, Japan, China ... We are here by no means

      No Unfortunately. If mines block the approaches to Vladivostok, Nakhodka, Murmansk, Petersburg and other seaports, then this will certainly affect the economy of our country. In the search engine, you can type how much cargo passes annually through the trading port of the same Vladivostok ...
    2. 0
      5 February 2019 19: 27
      It is also of strategic importance for us.
  13. -1
    5 February 2019 13: 39
    Favorite thesis of the author of the article: "Katz offers to surrender" laughing

    The Russian Navy will not go through minefields if TMV starts from the word at all, but simply destroys the enemy with Poseidons, brought into positional areas in peacetime, and SLBMs launched from nuclear submarines from the so-called bastions (coastal areas) and directly from pier.

    And after the exchange of massive nuclear missile strikes, we will not need to land on the radioactive North American continent in FIG, we will have a lot to do to develop oil and gas fields in the Persian Gulf.

    So the enemy will clearly let the money go down the drain, that is, to the currents, in an attempt to mine the ocean far and wide bully
    1. 0
      5 February 2019 19: 29
      but simply destroy the enemy with "Poseidons",


      I already wrote to you - do not forget to take medication. Poseidons, he will advance in advance, yeah. After such a withdrawal, it is possible to receive a massive nuclear strike without warning — and this will not be completely unfair.
  14. 0
    5 February 2019 15: 40
    Well, after all, war is whoever manages to impose enemy mines first. And he won’t let him impose himself. Here we need helicopters, Mi-26.
    1. 0
      5 February 2019 19: 29
      Yes, the speed factor will be fundamental.
  15. -1
    5 February 2019 19: 34
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    do not forget to take medicine

    Is this also written in your State Department training manual? laughing
    1. +1
      5 February 2019 20: 54
      No, it is written in your medical history. laughing

      Someone told you at least that Poseidon can be "brought out" (and then we must assume " laughing )? Where does the grass come from?
      1. -1
        5 February 2019 20: 58
        How many pieces of silver do you earn per article? laughing
        1. +1
          6 February 2019 12: 47
          Gygy.

          I work for the idea)))

          So who told you about Poseidon that he can be "released in advance"? The MO did not claim this!

          Neighbors in the ward?
  16. +1
    5 February 2019 19: 56
    The reasons for the total underestimation of mine weapons by all countries in past wars, the author did not explain, shifting to psychiatrists. The losses of all fleets from their own mines sometimes exceeded the losses from the enemy, especially for the Soviet fleet. The thesis - "mines are one of the most" cost effective "types of weapons" - is also quite controversial - are there data on the cost of mines produced and the cost of installing them and, accordingly, the cost of ships and vessels lost on mines? - and reading British data on 26 for sinking the ship with mines, against 148 s / v for sinking the ship with direct attacks, the question immediately arises, if they knew this, what wider mines did not use? -min was not enough?
    Well, in modern conditions, in conditions of general war, mines are completely useless, and in the case of a great power of a colonial war, they are also not needed - they can only be useful to small countries to at least annoy the aggressors.
    1. 0
      5 February 2019 20: 56
      The loss of all the fleets from their own mines sometimes exceeded the losses from the enemy — especially for the Soviet fleet.


      And the American fleet, too? English? How much I missed ...

      There are data on the cost of mines produced and the cost of their installation and, accordingly, the cost of ships and ships lost on mines?


      There is, surprisingly. Mina went much cheaper vessel laughing

      Well, in modern conditions, in a general war, mines are completely useless.


      Americans tell with their gigantic plans.
    2. +5
      6 February 2019 16: 16
      Well, in modern conditions, in a general war, mines are completely useless.

      This is far from the case. Did you read the article carefully? What does it say about the Suez Canal? About one of the ports in North Vietnam? And if one of the major shipping straits was blocked with mines? Do you think antipersonnel minefields are "useless"? You have no idea about the subject matter.
  17. 0
    5 February 2019 21: 50
    All this is informative, only this
    Document authored by Doctor of Historical Sciences Richard Hallion

    looks ambiguous. A doctor’s degree abroad corresponds to a candidate’s degree with us, but their professor corresponds to our doctor. Most likely Hellion - to. And. n in our opinion.
    1. +1
      6 February 2019 02: 49
      Quote: Aviator_
      A doctor’s degree abroad corresponds to a candidate’s degree with us, but their professor corresponds to our doctor. Most likely Hellion - to. And. n in our opinion.

      This is inaccurate. According to the Framework for Qualifications of the European Higher Education Area, there are scientific levels abroad: bachelor, master, doctor of philosophy. Doctor of Philosophy corresponds to our Ph.D. AND Professor is an academic title, a candidate of science can get it from us, and doctor is a degreein order to get it you must definitely defend a doctoral dissertation.
      1. 0
        6 February 2019 08: 39
        That we have such a difference - academic title and academic degree. There, if Dr is written on the business card, then this is our candidate. The author of the article raised the scientific qualifications of Hellion, who is really k. And. n., like the author VO Shpakovsky.
    2. +1
      6 February 2019 12: 48
      Yes you are right.

      But what does this fundamentally change? A cool book, by the way.
  18. 0
    6 February 2019 14: 10
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    Gygy

    Do not be fooled laughing
  19. 0
    7 February 2019 09: 47
    Navy General Staff resigned for the collapse of the work! to establish mass production of modern minesweepers and mine systems, instead of unnecessary destroyers and super frigates. In connection with the cancellation of the RMSD, stop laying altogether new surface ships other than minesweepers!
  20. 0
    25 February 2020 22: 18
    It remains to be understood how much a torpedo-based submarine simulator is cheaper than a Captor. I think that it’s time to equip submarines with mass simulators. The breakthrough of the Faroe-Icelandic PMSM line must begin with dozens of 100MT explosions there, so that both mines and inhabited ships are stunned.