There is no way out. On the geographical closeness of the oceans for the Russian Navy

546
A bit of geography for beginners.





Periodically in discussions of issues related to the underwater warfare, or, as it was recently, with atomic supertorpedo "Poseidon", some citizens are beginning to speak on the theme of “going out to the ocean”, that finding a submarine or “Poseidon” in the ocean is unrealistic because of its size and the like. Sometimes the same things are expressed about surface ships, about the prospects for their deployment in a particular area of ​​the world ocean during an ongoing war.

Such ideas are the result of so-called “cognitive distortion”. The man in the street believes that the ocean is big, you can “go out” into it. And this is despite the fact that most people who write and approve such things perfectly imagine a map of the world and its individual regions. But “cognitive distortion” puts this knowledge behind the brackets, and it exists separately from the idea of ​​“going out” into the ocean.

It makes sense to conduct a sort of educational program: repeat what everyone seems to know and so, but they don’t remember about it. Repeat so that recalled.

Those who are “at odds” with geography or served in officer positions in the Navy will not find anything new in this article and can safely finish reading it at this moment. Those who believe in “going out to the ocean” should read to the end.

Because with the outputs in the oceans, our Navy is not very good. Rather, bad. Or rather, there are almost none. So it will be closest to reality.

But first things first.

The division of Russian sea theaters has always been its strength and weakness at the same time. By force, because in the preatomic epoch, no adversary could count on being able to smash the whole fleet at once. In addition, during a geographically limited war, one of the battling fleets could come up with reinforcements that were based so far that they were, for the time, invulnerable to the enemy.

The weakness was that any single fleet was almost always weaker than its rivals, after the end of the sailing era for sure. And formally a large payroll fleet could not keep the enemy from attack, in the conditions of his numerical superiority - an example of which is the same Russo-Japanese war. At the same time, the transfer of reinforcements was fraught with the fact that the forces of the fleet would be broken up in parts - which, again, the Japanese showed us in 1905. But the division of the fleets was and remains only part of the geographical problem of our Navy. The second and more important problem is that our fleets are cut off from the oceans and, in fact, do not have access to it. In the event of a major war, this will inevitably affect its character in the most serious way. For example, by the fact that we can’t transfer reinforcements from the theater of operations to the theater of operations, and we won’t be able to go out into the open and fight. And much more we can’t.

Consider the situation for each of the fleets.

The Northern Fleet is based in the Arctic Ocean. In the arctic. In peacetime, ships and submarines of the Northern Fleet go into the oceans without difficulty, and perform tasks at any point.

And in the military? We look at the map.



Red arrows are those directions in which, in theory, after heavy battles in the sea and in the air, as well as on land (!), Surface ships and submarines can also pass. For surface ships, passage for at least a few months a year is considered possible. Blue arrows indicate the directions in which submarines could theoretically pass, and surface ships either cannot or even can literally one month a year, with great risk, even in spite of icebreaking support. That is, with an unacceptably high risk due to ice conditions.

As can be easily seen from the map, in fact, the Northern Fleet is located in a geographically closed area - all exits from it are controlled by the Anglo-Saxons either directly or by the hands of NATO allies and together with them. At the same time, such narrow spots as the Bering Strait, the Robson Strait (between Canada and Greenland) or the straits between the islands of the Canadian Arctic Archipelago are small enough in width to be mined very quickly. And even without mining, spills of hundreds of kilometers wide can control anti-submarine forces consisting of a very small number of ships and submarines, and in addition, all these narrownesses are controlled aviation.

What do you need to lead ships through the Bering Strait during the war with NATO? At a minimum, establish air supremacy over a significant part of Alaska, and hold it long enough, despite the fact that we have one air base for the entire region with a less significant infrastructure - Anadyr, and another concrete runway in the village of Providence - and this on an area about the size of Ukraine. Almost unsolvable task.

The only exception is the main “road” of our submarines and ships “to the world” - the Faro-Icelandic frontier (three red arrows on the map in the left part).

There is no way out. On the geographical closeness of the oceans for the Russian Navy


It was here that NATO and the United States planned to intercept and destroy our submarines on this line. From the northern part of Britain, through the Shetland and Faroe Islands, to Iceland and then Greenland, the West actively created during the Cold War, and now began to revive the most powerful anti-paradigm line, based on the air base in Iceland, and airfields in Britain, on which a large anti-submarine can be deployed. aviation, as well as the Second Fleet of the United States Navy, and the Royal Navy of Great Britain, and the Norwegian Armed Forces, who together with him must first give our Northern Fleet a fight in the Norwegian Sea, and then, ing on the result, or stop us in the Faroe-Iceland abroad through mass mining, air strikes and attack surface and submarine forces, or go to "kill the bear" in the Barents and White seas. Given the balance of power, the second option today is much more realistic.

One way or another, it is worth noting that the Northern Fleet is located on a geographically isolated theater of operations, from which there are only a few exits, of which only two can really be used, and having won in a fierce battle with many times superior enemy forces. But rather from these directions on the theater will go the enemy himself.

Inside the theater there are practically no significant targets located in the United States. That is, assuming that the same "Poseidon" will be released here somewhere in free swimming, it is necessary to recognize that there are simply no goals for it.

The situation is similar in the Pacific. When basing our ships in Primorye, for them there are several exits to the World Ocean - the Tsushima Strait, the Sangar Strait and several Kuril Straits.



At the same time, the Strait of Sangar passes conditionally speaking “through Japan” and ships and submarines can be carried through it either with the consent of Japan, or by capturing Hokkaido, the northern part of Honshu, and destroying all Japanese aviation. And faster than a number of Americans draw. To go through Tsushima is even more difficult - it is necessary to neutralize Japan completely, and to achieve agreement on the passage of the second ally of the Americans - South Korea. Moreover, essential American forces will also be deployed faster than the theaters.

Given the fact that, as a rule, they are always there, the task looks absolutely unsolvable, especially with our existing forces.

Remains exit through the Kuril Straits.

We look at another map.



The arrows indicate the direction of entry of our SSBNs from Kamchatka to the Sea of ​​Okhotsk. In places on the surface because of shallow depths. The exit of surface ships through the Kuril chain will be carried out by the same routes, just the other way. It is not difficult to see that the US needs to take control of just a few straits, and our fleet will be locked up in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk. Taking control over the Americans, with their deadly effective submarines and the ability to protect their deployment areas from our aircraft, the PLO (very weak and small) does not look fiction.

We state - the Pacific Fleet (with one exception, about which a little later) is locked even more reliably than the Northern.

The remaining two fleets, theoretically capable of operating in the Far Sea zone - the Black Sea and Baltic, are generally located in almost inland seas, communicating with the world's oceans through a single “window” - in the Baltic through the Danish Straits, completely under the control of NATO, and on the Black Sea - through the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles, which are also controlled by NATO. In fact, in order not to let the enemy enter into the Baltic Sea and the Black Sea large sea forces, the Russian Federation, in the event of war, would have to occupy Denmark and at least part of Turkey, which, given the current state of the Russian Armed Forces, we have allies (or rather, the absence of Allies), controlled by the merchant fleet and landing forces, is unrealistic.

In the case of a hypothetical neutrality of Turkey, our fleet is still trapped out of the Black Sea, it gets into the Mediterranean, from which again only two exits - Gibraltar (under NATO control) and Suez, alongside which is militarily powerful pro-Western Israel.

Conclusion: the Russian fleet is able to act in the World Ocean only in peacetime, while in the war all those communications that it uses to enter the World Ocean pass through narrowness, which are either now completely controlled by the enemy (and to increase control over which the enemy has simply fantastic powers, both in quantity and quality), or they can easily be brought under control.

This fact is well known to the Anglo-Saxons. They built such a security system for centuries, seizing control over all the narrows and important straits (recall the seizure of Gibraltar, for example), and this control now gives them the ability to control the ocean, makes it possible for other countries to be cut off from access to the oceans, need.

An exception that does not fall under these restrictions is Kamchatka. It is there, in the Avacha Bay, that is our only point from which our ships and submarines enter the World Ocean immediately, bypassing the narrowness and straits. It is not difficult to guess that the US Navy is incredibly tightly controlling this harbor, tracking the movement of any ships from and into it, and especially submarines. It must be said that in carrying out powerful and provocative pressure on the Soviet Navy at the end of the 80 of the last century, the Americans largely neutralized the potential of Kamchatka - at least, for decades to take out SSBNs to combat patrols in the open ocean areas of the Navy, and not just like that. In addition, from a purely military point of view, Kamchatka is very vulnerable - should the Americans land a landing on it, it will be unrealistic to recapture it, for this we do not have a fleet, no ground communications, or an airfield network (for example, for airborne forces) of the necessary scale. Supplies by land Kamchatka can not be obtained, reinforcements by land - too. In fact, it is an isolated region, which in the event of war is simply impossible to protect.

Our fleet is locked, albeit within very large areas, but still locked. And there will be no way out of these locked areas in the event of war. This, among other things, means that we either have to accept the transfer of initiative to the enemy, that is, he can enter our closed theaters and leave them at will, as he controls the entrances and exits, or, alternatively, we must be prepared to conduct offensive operations conducted at such a pace that the enemy simply does not have time to react to them, the purpose of which would be either to intercept control over narrowness or to deprive the enemy of the possibility to exercise such control, in any way possible, yuchaya most radical.

This is a fundamental point.

At the same time, in the case of adopting a passive defensive strategy, it is necessary to clearly understand that it means not just the numerical superiority of the enemy over us in each of the theaters, but the absolute, overwhelming numerical superiority fraught with very fast loss of territories (the same Kamchatka and Kuriles), even temporary. And for offensive action, offensive forces are needed. And the sooner we understand this, the better.

By the way, we are not alone. Let's see how Americans see the "containment" of China.

So, "island chains" are barriers to Chinese influence.



It is with these “defensive” lines, as well as its ability to “plug” the Malacca Strait from the Indian Ocean, the US plans to “plug” China where it is now, stopping Chinese expansion by force, if necessary. The Anglo-Saxons are masters of such affairs, they deal with marine theaters as a grandmaster with a chessboard. And, as you can see, the Chinese, too, is not all easy with access to the ocean. How do they react to it? They build offensive forces, of course. And this is a much smarter reaction than ours, which is the complete absence of reaction in general.

However, with a population that, while imagining a map of the world, simultaneously believes in some opportunities to “go to the ocean” (which was repeatedly voiced at least in discussions about the Poseidon torpedo), another would be surprising.

We can only be glad that we live in peacetime, when all these factors are only potentially. Let us hope that it will remain so, because with the existing approaches to the development of Russia's sea power, we can only hope. Unlike the same Chinese.
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  1. +16
    24 January 2019 05: 44
    We can only rejoice that we live in peacetime ...

    They too. For in order to achieve its goals, Russia has not only a fleet and it is not at all necessary for it to go out into the world ocean for a retaliatory strike. Among other things, the time has not come when a country with a nuclear "triad" can be locked up in territorial waters.
    1. +17
      24 January 2019 08: 13
      A limited nuclear war will not be, and everyone understands that.
      1. +38
        24 January 2019 09: 24
        "There will not be a limited nuclear war, and everyone understands that."

        There will be no war, and everyone understands that. There will be collapse - "USSR 2.0".
        And neither the army nor the navy, no matter how strong they are, will not prevent this from happening.
        With such a development as ours, we do not need to win, we will defeat ourselves .....
        1. -3
          24 January 2019 23: 32
          There Venezuela, the Anglo-Saxons at one point destroyed and captured.
          1. +2
            25 January 2019 12: 42
            They took it straight and captured it, it’s not so simple!
        2. +2
          25 January 2019 22: 27
          There will be no war, and everyone understands that. There will be collapse - "USSR 2.0".
          And neither the army nor the navy, no matter how strong they are, will not prevent this from happening.
          With such a development as ours, we do not need to win, we will defeat ourselves .....
          Well, the point is that you voiced this, since everyone understands? Do you personally feel better? USSR 2 still need to collect. And here the horse did not roll. Yes, and all these words, so when he presses, everyone will learn a lot about himself. I wish everyone in themselves not to be disappointed.
        3. -1
          19 September 2019 09: 13
          I don’t understand, and more importantly, they don’t understand overseas and don’t give a damn about you and your miserable Wishlist and Puff.
      2. +29
        24 January 2019 09: 28
        We carry out 50 limited wars and chop off half of the territory of Russia. As in that joke about dripping brandy. No, limited war can be waged only against some Gabon, or against Georgia, when they simply gave a hand to the children of the mountains.

        An attempt to fight with Russia on the principle that we are fighting here, we are not fighting here, we trade here at all, as a certain territorial entity does, is doomed to failure. Just because NATO, in principle, cannot foresee all possible responses. The war, as is known, is very easy to start, but it can be impossible to end it for decades.
        1. 0
          24 January 2019 10: 47
          An attempt to fight with Russia on the principle that we are fighting here, we are not fighting here, we trade here at all, as a certain territorial entity does, is doomed to failure. Just because NATO, in principle, cannot foresee all possible responses. The war, as is known, is very easy to start, but it can be impossible to end it for decades.


          It is not necessary that the enemy actually had the capabilities in which he believes. Enough for him to just believe.
          1. +4
            25 January 2019 03: 33
            I will supplement the author, from all capes and peninsulas in the Russian border, into the seas and oceans, the systems of radiation and noise sensors are spread along the bottom: - Norway, USA, Japan, S. Korea
            1. +3
              25 January 2019 08: 39
              Yes, that too.
            2. +2
              25 January 2019 13: 01
              And the author could not analyze what forces the NATO members would be to block these exits, the Americans barely assemble two air wings, yearn for additional aircraft for spare parts, three ships go to the Black Sea, the British "Daring" do not get out of repair, the Germans have half submarines on the move, the Norwegians drowned the newest frigate, the author has forgotten about the possibility of maneuvering forces along inland waterways, attempts to "exit" into the ocean and waging a war on communications in most cases turned out to be completely unsuccessful! Remember the Kriegsmarines, all their raiders rest at the bottom!
              1. +6
                25 January 2019 13: 16
                Yes, but they need to deal with a completely ridiculous number of ships - no more than 15 on 4 fleets, and there are about the same number of submarines on the go.

                For example, at the Black Sea Fleet on the run of the 4 ship - three frigates 11356 and 1 Petrel 1135, plus RTOs and IPCs that will be needed offshore and which no one will send anywhere (though in reality nothing will be sent, but here we are about the possibilities) .
                1. +3
                  25 January 2019 18: 34
                  Exactly with its ridiculous amount for our ridiculous amount, at one time when the Americans' PLO system was working to its fullest, ours quite normally went out into the ocean and managed to escort the Kirov cruiser into the Mediterranean Sea in complete secrecy, so that the Americans found out about it when he was abeam of Malta!
                  1. +1
                    27 January 2019 19: 31
                    The cruiser Kirov was invisible to the radar, right?
                    1. +1
                      27 January 2019 22: 37
                      Absolutely see! Everything is in open sources. And on the other side there are people too, by the way, with all their weaknesses and virtues. People are fighting and not the radar.
                      1. +1
                        27 January 2019 23: 23
                        You do not tell me a fairy tale, please, okay? Or look at the map, how to get from the Federation Council to Malta.
                      2. +2
                        28 January 2019 00: 17
                        It is very simple to go through Gibraltar, and this is a very real story of our cruiser "Kirov" pr.1144 1984, the entire NATO fleet was on the ears!
                  2. 0
                    1 February 2019 19: 17
                    Here, too, they somehow wrote about the teachings of the US Navy in the Far East in Soviet times. And the command of the Pacific Fleet did not notice anything then)) And when it noticed it was too late ...
                2. 0
                  27 January 2019 22: 39
                  You just don’t tell anyone about the number of ships in all fleets, we have only 6 Black Sea Fleet submarines!
                  1. 0
                    27 January 2019 23: 24
                    And can submarines move the strand through the straits to the Mediterranean? or only from Mediterranean in the Black Sea Fleet? Convention forgot, right?

                    Well, the submarine is a submarine it has limited functionality.
                    1. 0
                      28 January 2019 00: 09
                      The Convention about which you mention, in fact, we have not signed, just as it has not been signed by a number of states, now they are passing this strait on the surface! And the functionality of the ship, it’s as if you were given a Swiss penknife, on the hunt, it has much more functionality compared to a trampoline!
            3. 0
              26 January 2019 22: 44
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              It is not necessary that the enemy actually had the capabilities in which he believes. Enough for him to just believe.
              Reply


              Let him believe

              We will not have to wait until the enemy develops an offensive, but immediately take a look at some ally, or very close by or at the ship’s group, with a vigorous loaf


              And let them consult how to continue.

              While they are deliberating, it is possible to go over with conventional products, and to take control of several straits (forever)

              In theory, it is necessary to loudly warn in advance that this will be so, this is for Norway and Denmark and the rest of those wishing to "keep the straits" for the Anglo-Saxons.

              Especially - to warn Japan, since the Far East is vulnerable to us

              1. 0
                22 September 2019 15: 27
                Here's how primitive it is: to build floodlights, hoping that the military “there” are completely fools and cowards.
                And all these mirages crumble when the installation is erroneous. They respond to the "vigorous-loaf" with their own. And we are on the verge of a war in which you, I and our loved ones will burn (it does not matter that a similar thing happens “there”, it is important here and now). And if you happen to live long in the radioactive ruins, about the "straits" - do not even remember.
                1. 0
                  23 September 2019 07: 17
                  Quote: 3danimal
                  from how primitive it is: to build floodlights, hoping that the military “there” are completely fools and cowards.



                  And here it is?

                  It is well known what will happen to Russia, if the Anglo-Saxons are allowed to capture us.

                  The genocide will be such that no vigorous loaf can not be compared

                  They will not miss the moment to solve the "Russian question" once and for all.

                  Therefore, you have to play until the end
                  1. 0
                    23 September 2019 07: 55
                    Well, look: the Anglo-Saxons captured Germany and Japan. Any genocide? Although Hitler and propaganda painted terrible pictures of the indispensable death of the "Aryans." And all that I had to shoot myself and hanged the main Nazis in Nuremberg. Adequate opponent is not so scared to lose, but the savage fanatic (who were the Nazis) - yes. And we must be able to, understanding the responsibility for the fate of millions of compatriots. So, a number of German officials sabotaged the orders of the "leader" on the destruction of economic facilities and food depots. Imagining that there will be no Hitler, but the Germans will remain, who will need to somehow live.
                    Further: what are the reasons to believe that “they” want to capture the Russian Federation? Do they need our resources? Well, yes, with advanced industry (Germans, Japanese) not really, at least something. Or does our priceless “spirituality” keep them awake?
                    Resources are excellently sold and bought. Moreover, additional gas pipelines are being built to sell gas to them (45% of the RF budget revenues from the sale of hydrocarbons).
                    So the most logical explanation: “the threat of capture” is a propaganda myth. True, it will be very bad if people believe in it, always sitting at the top (from which the connection with reality is always lost).
                    1. 0
                      23 September 2019 08: 19
                      Quote: 3danimal
                      Well, look: the Anglo-Saxons captured Germany and Japan. Any genocide? Although Hitler and


                      yes how many of you, [unprintable], crawl out of all the cracks?

                      I hope you're just a stupid, unformed person, much worse - if vice versa
                      1. 0
                        23 September 2019 08: 28
                        I see that everything is exactly the opposite)
                        I am quite a reasonable person and can correct my opinion under the influence of logic and facts. What arguments do you have?
                  2. 0
                    23 September 2019 08: 11
                    And you are clearly confusing them with Nazi fanatics.
                    1. 0
                      23 September 2019 08: 16
                      Quote: 3danimal
                      And you are clearly confusing them with Nazi fanatics.


                      But I won’t confuse you with anyone,
                      [further unprintable]
          2. +1
            25 January 2019 09: 51
            Saakashvili also believed. And Hitler. And many more. Even Poroshenko may have believed that his boats would sink.

            Just a discussion of inadequate behavior is meaningless. They are so dangerous that they can even arrange 3-th world and will not understand how. However, the First World War also began in an environment where no one expected 4 years of total war.

            And it’s necessary to pray to Putin, that he still manages to avoid the same climbing in the country of dill, with unpredictable consequences, although they do everything for it.
            1. 0
              25 January 2019 13: 20
              Saakashvili also believed. And Hitler. And many more. Even Poroshenko may have believed that his boats would sink.


              Well, you yourself have confirmed. All these people screwed up, but that does not mean that they could not START.
            2. 0
              22 September 2019 15: 30
              Saakashvili and Hitler))) Listen less to propaganda ... Abkhazia, South Ossetia. What if Turkey recognized the independence of Chechnya in 1995? How many civilians died during the storming of Grozny in two campaigns? Or Russian bullets-shells kill only the bad? (The one killed is the bad one).
          3. 0
            25 January 2019 12: 38
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            It is not necessary that the enemy actually had the capabilities in which he believes. Enough for him to just believe.
            Enough for what? The side against which they are also fighting can believe a lot.
        2. +11
          24 January 2019 14: 17
          Our fleet is locked, even inside very large water areas, but still a ban. And there will be no exits from these locked water areas in case of war.


          Well, firstly, in addition to Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky, I mean the place where the fleet is based) in this area there are several more options and access to the open ocean.
          And secondly, we ourselves refuse them, business is above all. The first option is Bechevinskaya Bay, we ourselves left from there, and now we decided to create a transshipment base for LNG there. The second option is the village of Crater on the island of Simushir, from there we also left, we just left everything and left, more recently. And how much money and time was invested to equip the base there for submarine-based, there was even a village. By the way, the depth of the bay is up to 200 meters.

          You can find something else if you wish.

          Well, the offhand question is - where did the Japanese fleet go to attack Pearl Harbor?

          I have only one question - that the Navy headquarters do not know all this? If they don’t know, then the fate of our Pacific Fleet is sad. But even worse option if they know, but do nothing in terms of deploying new locations.

          But this has nothing to do with the geographical location of the Russian Federation.
          1. +8
            24 January 2019 14: 47
            Quote: user
            Our fleet is locked, even inside very large water areas, but still a ban. And there will be no exits from these locked water areas in case of war.


            Well, firstly, in addition to Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky, I mean the place where the fleet is based) in this area there are several more options and access to the open ocean.
            And secondly, we ourselves refuse them, business is above all. The first option is Bechevinskaya Bay, we ourselves left from there, and now we decided to create a transshipment base for LNG there. The second option is the village of Crater on the island of Simushir, from there we also left, we just left everything and left, more recently. And how much money and time was invested to equip the base there for submarine-based, there was even a village. By the way, the depth of the bay is up to 200 meters.

            You can find something else if you wish.

            Well, the offhand question is - where did the Japanese fleet go to attack Pearl Harbor?

            I have only one question - that the Navy headquarters do not know all this? If they don’t know, then the fate of our Pacific Fleet is sad. But even worse option if they know, but do nothing in terms of deploying new locations.

            But this has nothing to do with the geographical location of the Russian Federation.

            I agree with you! Yelling on TV and radio, you can do anything, but ... "you can see the bird by the litter" !!!
            .. Or a firm belief that there will be no war between us (then why form the image of the enemy?), Or, stupidly "quiet" surrender
          2. +6
            24 January 2019 18: 20
            On Bechevinka now the teachings of the marines are, so it is abandoned. In general, Kamchatka, with at least one home base, at least with two, is the only place not blocked by the narrows and the Americans on them.

            But without solving the issue with their submarines, which are grazing there like at home, it will not give anything.
            1. +1
              25 January 2019 15: 27
              Who told you that it is abandoned. Or do you need a whole division there?
              There are outposts on the entire coast (Kamchatka). I served at 13, and there are also bays in the area of ​​the bay. And as far as I know, ordinary Moreman posts have long been replaced by automatic ones.
              Now, military units are starting to build new facilities. Perhaps something will happen in Bechevinka. And almost all exercises are conducted with shooting at the Radyginsky training ground. So in the bay area there was a maximum deployment of units, without firing.
              1. 0
                27 January 2019 23: 26
                In 2017, there the marines in the town "fought", everything is abandoned. I admit that there is some kind of living border outpost there, but this is not about her.
                1. 0
                  28 January 2019 05: 49
                  The problem is not that it is impossible to rebuild or build, the problem is that there is nothing to place there (not ships, not ships). Almost everyone was driven to Vladik, there was not much left, but what was left was placed closer, in the area of ​​road accessibility.
                  But, according to the plans and proceeding from the fact that they began to drive tourists and fishermen from Bechevinka, it seems that they decided to restore the base all the same. So maybe there will be minesweepers, MPK, MRK and the remnants of missile boats. And on local TV they said that in the interests of the Navy this year, construction and contracting work will be carried out, in general a high lump from the Navy came, and the region is ready to help.
        3. -1
          19 September 2019 08: 49
          How stupid you are, gentlemen commentators.
        4. 0
          21 September 2019 09: 49
          There was also such a joke about an ugly full woman who believed that everyone around wanted her.
          Why conquer half of the US and Europe?
          For what purpose, with heavy losses?
      3. -5
        24 January 2019 16: 53
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        A limited nuclear war will not be, and everyone understands that.
        Well, why, maybe a limited nuclear war. In unlimited war, everything is destroyed. And with limited - not everything. In a limited war, for example, or in front of it (since it does not start suddenly) in a threatened period, a maneuvering tug with three nuclear warheads of 50MT each, with AI on board, is launched into space on the Earth-Moon route. YARD for the tug is already there. Knowing the attitude of the Yankers to compliance with interstate agreements (and they spit on treaties), it will be easy to launch nuclear warheads into space, applying the same rhetoric that they are now using to justify withdrawal from the INF Treaty. The interorbital tug enters a circumlunar orbit and goes into alert mode. In the process, he looks behind the Earth, tracking possible expected missile launches and / or expected outbreaks of nuclear explosions. Telescopes allow it. When they are detected or at the command of the warheads, the tugs give an impulse to descend, conduct a shallow sublunar synchronous cumulative detonation of three thermonuclear charges of 50Mt each in a triangle with an edge of 400m on the surface of the Moon. The cumulative jet rushes into the geostationary orbit (GSO) and after 13 hours ALL satellites in the GSO will be riddled with fragments of lunar soil. People on earth are still alive. The loss of satellites should dramatically reduce the fighting fervor of the enemy. If this does not seem enough, the next step is to launch 600 nuclear warheads of 30000MT each into a near-earth orbit (altitude 3 ... 100 km) and simultaneously detonating them over the enemy's territory produce such an EMP that finishes off their remaining ground and space communications. People on earth are still alive. This should further calm the generals of the US Army and those in the Seawulf, Virginia, Arleigh Burke, Nimitz and Ford. After that, you can release Poseidons on alert, on occasion they can be "returned to the booth." I hope that the closed straits will open thanks to the above activities. If this does not seem enough, then do not blame me, the next stage is a massive launch of ICBMs and CDs.
        1. 0
          19 September 2019 08: 52
          Dreamer, you so want to become ashes that you wonder.
          1. 0
            22 September 2019 15: 41
            Such "commentators" think on the principle of "and what for me (us)?" And all plans are built according to the dogma that “there” are all military fools and cowards. Propaganda makes itself felt ...
    2. -3
      24 January 2019 10: 14
      Open your eyes to the facts. It came back in 90gg. It is important not only to seize the bridgehead (territory, power), but, most importantly, to retain it and include it in your system of interests. How did Germany defeat WWII? Destruction of the ruling system in the capital. After bombing Washington, who and where will establish the new power in the states? Certainly not Russia, in the set of the above reasons.
      1. +9
        24 January 2019 11: 51
        Quote: RomanS
        How did Germany defeat WWII? Destruction of the ruling system in the capital. After bombing Washington, who and where will establish the new power in the states?

        Germany was defeated not by periodic bombing of Berlin and industrial areas, but by a complete defeat in Berlin itself. The Germans fought until the last hour!
        And now, while something shock reaches Fushington, the top is already shedding from there! And you won’t stop the command and control of the bombing of the capital, but only provoke it.
        Now you need to beat the enemy in positions and first-order locations, in airfields, ports, fueling systems, communication systems and missile positions. Further, everything is known without my amateurish reasoning.
        And to establish power in the states will be people who know English at least!
        1. 0
          25 January 2019 12: 42
          Quote: Starover_Z
          And now, while something shock reaches Fushington, the top is already shedding from there!

          In 20 minutes (the time of approaching the ICBM warheads) are unlikely to go far.
          1. +1
            25 January 2019 13: 23
            Quote: DenZ
            Quote: Starover_Z
            And now, while something shock reaches Fushington, the top is already shedding from there!

            In 20 minutes (the time of approaching the ICBM warheads) are unlikely to go far.

            If they decide on the last, 3rd World War, they will not sit in Congress and the White House. Immediately burrow in mountain bunkers.
    3. +1
      24 January 2019 19: 24
      Quote: ROSS 42
      and she doesn’t have to go out to the oceans to retaliate.

      You can simply answer and forget from the pier!
  2. +12
    24 January 2019 05: 54
    An interesting point of view from the author.
    However, I believe that in the future war with the Anglo-Saxons, the main battles will nevertheless unfold at the land theater in Europe ... maritime communications will be interesting only from the point of view of logistics ... the experience of the Second World War and the actions of German submariners confirm this.
    Much will depend on the enemy’s goals in the war ... to defeat us economically or simply destroy ... resources for the war are always allocated for certain tasks ... to look out of the blue on the operational plans of the US Navy in case of war ... alas, secrets. crying
    1. +2
      24 January 2019 06: 14
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      look out of the blue on the operational plans of the US Navy in case of war ... alas, secrets.

      Their actions are quite predictable. Control, blockade and destruction. With their huge subfloor and aviation, the problem is easily solved. The paucity of the Russian submarine makes it possible to control their location because now only a few units go to sea on the BS. They are led immediately from the exit from the bases.
      Those remaining in the bases are easily blocked by minefields, after which you can strike at the TKR bases and drown those who are at sea. All this can be done by the US Navy by submarines and naval aviation alone. Not involving a particularly surface fleet.
      1. +13
        24 January 2019 07: 35
        Quote: Puncher
        Those remaining in the bases are easily blocked by minefields

        from this place more. They arrived just like that and put mines?
        and we were sitting and picking our nose?
        1. +14
          24 January 2019 07: 38
          Quote: widower
          Quote: Puncher
          Those remaining in the bases are easily blocked by minefields

          from this place more. They arrived just like that and put mines?
          and we were sitting and picking our nose?

          no, we were minesweepers with submarines. and if they didn’t cut it, they drove them into eternal modernization
          1. -3
            24 January 2019 07: 43
            Quote: Tlauicol
            no, we were minesweepers with submarines. and if they didn’t cut it, they drove them into eternal modernization

            you are not lost in time? century 21 already. and it seems like conclusions have already been made
            1. +13
              24 January 2019 07: 46
              Quote: widower
              it seems like conclusions have already been made
              not funny
              1. 0
                24 January 2019 07: 56
                Quote: Tlauicol
                not funny

                Yes, it seems not in the circus.
                I do not like, paws up and forward to ....
                so, to reflection, why are ALL "ehsperts" crowded together on VO?
                Well, why aren't you GSH? not allowed ????
                think why?
                1. +9
                  24 January 2019 08: 03
                  my father is also only up to Art. the sergeant has risen - perhaps that's why? And there are no relatives in the General Staff
                  1. +1
                    24 January 2019 08: 06
                    Quote: Tlauicol
                    And there are no relatives in the General Staff

                    and there are all godfathers? siblings?
                    or maybe they get there thanks to BRAINS?
                    1. +12
                      24 January 2019 08: 07
                      let's not quarrel. We will discuss the subject of the article
                      1. +9
                        24 January 2019 08: 12
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        let's not quarrel. We will discuss the subject of the article

                        hi drinks
                    2. +3
                      24 January 2019 16: 05
                      Quote: widower
                      or maybe they get there thanks to BRAINS?

                      Is that what you joked about?
                      1. +8
                        24 January 2019 18: 52
                        If the government falls on family ties and on the criterion of personal loyalty to the chief, then where is the likelihood that they do not fall on the general staff?
                        If the government felt boots, which is already clear to the last cat, why can't there be such people in the Ministry of Defense?
                2. +16
                  24 January 2019 08: 09
                  Quote: widower
                  WHY ARE NOT GSH? not allowed ????
                  think why?

                  There are enough of them. At the General Staff of the Navy of the Russian Federation, they understand everything perfectly, but they can’t do anything. The Russian military-industrial complex is not able to provide the Russian fleet with modern anti-submarine and anti-mine weapons because of its backwardness.
                  1. -3
                    24 January 2019 08: 15
                    Quote: Puncher
                    There are enough of them. At the General Staff of the Navy of the Russian Federation, they understand everything perfectly, but they can’t do anything.

                    Help!!!! not from the couch !!!!

                    [Quote] [/ quote]
                    1. +3
                      24 January 2019 14: 55
                      Quote: widower
                      Quote: Puncher
                      There are enough of them. At the General Staff of the Navy of the Russian Federation, they understand everything perfectly, but they can’t do anything.

                      Help!!!! not from the couch !!!!


                      You, in general, have even the slightest idea on the topic ??? (sorry)
                  2. +13
                    24 January 2019 09: 08
                    Not because of backwardness, but because of wild disorganization and massive cuts in the defense industry.
                    Technologically, in three to four years, on an existing backlog, you can make an anti-mine complex and put it into series for another year.

                    But then the era of endless OCD will end.

                    Here is a project killed by sawmills, for example - http://bastion-opk.ru/stiu-maevka/

                    Quite normal, even by modern standards. But in order not to finish the cuts on OCD, the topic was nailed down, the Civil Code was dismissed, and in fact the project was defeated. Now it can not be restarted, but the cuts continue.

                    With anti-submarine weapons more difficult, but also solvable and also hesitates to "cut".
            2. +8
              24 January 2019 08: 32
              No one made any conclusions. And does nothing on this issue.
            3. +10
              24 January 2019 10: 28
              conclusions made- no minesweepers winked
              1. +3
                24 January 2019 10: 48
                This is exactly the same thing.
                1. +7
                  24 January 2019 13: 21
                  Alexander hi Yes, it seems they started producing minesweepers with a non-metal body? There was such news. Maybe they’ll go to the series? You look and get better.
                  1. +4
                    24 January 2019 14: 56
                    Quote: Leopold
                    Alexander hi Yes, it seems they started producing minesweepers with a non-metal body? There was such news. Maybe they’ll go to the series? You look and get better.

                    In what quantity, and equipment do not tell me?)
                    1. +5
                      24 January 2019 15: 05
                      No, Alex hi Unfortunately, I will not prompt. I only know what I read here. I’m not marine and I don’t know the details. He made only an assumption. I do not pretend to the truth, purely IMHO.
                      1. +6
                        24 January 2019 15: 13
                        good
                        You are an adequate person!)
                        Learn what is not up to date topics!
                        It is sad that history does not teach anything: "hat / icon-covering" are ineradicable, alas, in our country. Then, "we hang dogs for Tsushima"
                        Objectively, with the Fleet TROUBLE !!!
                        There is degradation, at least in number, even in the OVR, Karl !!
                        "but we have Caliber!")))))
                      2. +7
                        24 January 2019 15: 20
                        The fact that we are in trouble with the Fleet, I intuitively sense, though not my profile. I don’t pin vain hopes on “Caliber” and “Poseidon”, but I also don’t deny their role, because I have not thoroughly studied it. And I will add to my opinion that in addition to the Fleet itself, it is necessary to develop its infrastructure. Without this, there is no way to revive the Fleet.
                      3. +3
                        24 January 2019 15: 34
                        ... at least, not to destroy, something created!) hi
                      4. +5
                        24 January 2019 21: 01
                        I am only "FOR" hands and feet. good
                  2. 0
                    24 January 2019 18: 22
                    They are unsuccessful, and too large, and there are no engines for them, and there is no mine complex, and the BEC cannot enter the ship. Could not do.
                    1. +5
                      24 January 2019 21: 02
                      Not everything is so simple, errors are always present at the first stage.
            4. +11
              24 January 2019 15: 16
              Quote: widower
              you are not lost in time? century 21 already. and it seems like conclusions have already been made

              Can I tell you what conclusions were made? In 2014, the then Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, Chirkov, actually abolished the surface forces of the OVR - by his order, the development of the OVR corvette was stopped, instead of which they began to develop the "dove of peace" 22160. And the OVR remained with 30-year-old IPCs, which are equipped with weapons and equipment from the times of developed socialism. How long will they last?
              Chirkov then also said that all the tasks of the OVR will be carried out by coastal complexes and aviation. What do we have with anti-submarine aircraft? Yes, hurt us and her - as many as 8 upgraded sides for all fleets.
              What do we have with mine-sweeping forces? Get hurt too - one new TSh-IM in the fleet and another 5 or 6 in the building.
        2. +18
          24 January 2019 08: 06
          Quote: widower
          They arrived just like that and put mines?

          Sailed and set. On their submarines, from their torpedo tubes, their own self-transporting sea bottom mines.
          Quote: widower
          and we were sitting and picking our nose?

          Well, it depends on the imagination and thickness of the fingers. Otherwise unavailable.
          PS: I understand your indignation because the thesis "but from the taiga to the British seas" continues to prevail in spite of the monstrous degradation of the Navy. The mind refuses to realize the real situation and seeks salvation in "surely there are secret systems about which nobody is told, so they will work!" ...
          1. -14
            24 January 2019 08: 20
            Quote: Puncher
            Sailed and set. On their submarines, from their torpedo tubes, their own self-transporting sea bottom mines.

            yourself not funny?
            dozens of boats suddenly came out to mine ????
            and we missed it ?????
            despite the monstrous degradation

            apparently because of this disease you are not allowed to enter the Navy recourse
            WHAT DO YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO JUDGE about the whole Navy ??????
            threw out ??? pour bile here ????
            1. +19
              24 January 2019 09: 25
              Quote: widower
              dozens of boats suddenly came out to mine ????
              and we missed it ?????

              Every day, dozens of American nuclear submarines carry BS in the ocean. Changing regularly. You can at least blink, but the domestic fleet does not have the means to keep track of their whereabouts and even more so the purposes of their BS.
              Quote: widower
              WHAT DO YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO JUDGE about the whole Navy ??????

              The right of a citizen financing all of this. Just like you.
              1. -16
                24 January 2019 09: 57
                Quote: Puncher
                but the domestic fleet has no means

                I'm bastard belay
                and can you show what means the Navy has ?? and how do they spend ????
                not far climbed ???
                it generally owls.
                from the State Department infa came? laughing
                The right of a citizen financing all of this. Just like you.

                do you have a deal
                did you ask him
                from the "ceiling" blurt out, this is slander
                1. +10
                  24 January 2019 19: 00
                  Sergei, stop making people laugh! Or do you really believe in some of our "weapons of retribution", in which Hitler made the Germans believe? Do you really believe in wunderwales under the brand name "no analogues in the world"? You can't be so naive.
            2. +9
              24 January 2019 14: 59
              The feeling that you are "under the spitz", because you are furiously trying to justify the obvious absurdities that are happening to our Fleet, or you know SOMETHING that we mortals are not given)))
              1. +4
                25 January 2019 13: 22
                Comrades near Spitz still have connected speech usually))))
                1. +1
                  25 January 2019 13: 25
                  Differently..)
                  I can suggest, as an option: "... under the awl"))))
        3. +11
          24 January 2019 16: 04
          Quote: widower
          from this place more. They arrived just like that and put mines?
          and we sat and picked our nose

          Something like that was locked in the Second World War.
      2. +10
        24 January 2019 08: 31
        For high-speed mining, bombers from the Air Force are pulled up. With captors and quick strikes.
        1. -9
          24 January 2019 08: 41
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          For high-speed mining, bombers from the Air Force are pulled up. With Captors and Quick Strikes

          gyyyyyyyyyy, and our air defense and the airborne forces will look at this show ???? laughing
          with all my heart I wish YOU to sit in one of THIS laughing
          1. +10
            24 January 2019 10: 49
            Air defense is carried out by a sudden "one-wave" strike. If anything.
            1. +2
              24 January 2019 11: 08
              With the "removal of air defense with one sudden blow", the Stalin strait may form ... and there will be no need to mine something on this planet, unfortunately
              1. +6
                24 January 2019 13: 02
                Read the military doctrine of the Russian Federation, it says about the Strait of Stalin
                1. +6
                  24 January 2019 19: 03
                  These cheers patriots already got everyone with their Stalin Strait. The story about this strait is funny, but nothing more.
            2. The comment was deleted.
            3. -1
              24 January 2019 22: 40
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              Air defense is carried out by a sudden "one-wave" strike. If anything.

              You better go smoke next what you consume there and then take it to yourself and your brain.
              1. +1
                25 January 2019 08: 43
                Yes, I’m better off meditating on your photo. Did you paste it in your passport? laughing
      3. 0
        24 January 2019 13: 44
        And why then they still have not done this port? If this is so simple it can be done without much effort. Even for some reason, they didn’t destroy North Korea, although the difference in military potential between this country and the USA is even colossal than between the USA and Russia?
        1. +9
          24 January 2019 15: 01
          Quote: Servisinzhener
          And why then they still have not done this port? If this is so simple it can be done without much effort. Even for some reason, they didn’t destroy North Korea, although the difference in military potential between this country and the USA is even colossal than between the USA and Russia?

          WHY do they need it ???? At the moment!)))) They are more concerned about the PRC, and rightly!))
          Do not touch us, we ourselves, at such a pace ...)
      4. 0
        24 January 2019 14: 33
        Their actions are quite predictable. Control, blockade and destruction. With their huge subfloor and aviation, the problem is easily solved.


        This is if it will be Europe, but the Pacific Ocean does not look so sad, plus ground based aviation and missile defense and anti-aircraft defense systems, ASU will have to approach the distance of striking (meaning not sea battles, but the defense of its territory), if we draw the right conclusions.
    2. +9
      24 January 2019 06: 15
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      look out of the blue on the operational plans of the US Navy in case of war ... alas, secrets.

      Yeah - open secret. Destroy enemy strike forces, inflict physical damage to industry, communications. Disable communication paths. Destroy government and wait for the country to destroy itself in an economic blockade.
      In this situation, the most correct step would be the destruction of US military bases in Europe (coordinates are known) and launching a nuclear missile strike on US industrial and administrative centers. That's all. Before the Strategic Missile Forces, such a task was planned back in Soviet times.
      Directly prophetic words of Cherkasov from the film "Alexander Nevsky": "The German, as always, will go like a pig." In the year of the pig, something is a lot of dirty tricks, but it's only January in the yard.
      1. +1
        24 January 2019 09: 48
        cause physical damage to industry

        Disable communication paths.

        It won’t work out for them! At least in our area, in the neighboring ones too! laughing
        Destroy government
        And why destroy "ours"? laughing
      2. +7
        24 January 2019 10: 23
        Quote: ROSS 42
        "The German, as always, will be a pig.

        )))
    3. +11
      24 January 2019 08: 13
      And how our ground forces will reach London, please tell me.
      1. +2
        24 January 2019 08: 42
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        And how do our ground forces reach London

        and what to do there? radiation....
      2. +7
        24 January 2019 09: 42
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        And how our ground forces will reach London, please tell me.

        Through the Channel Tunnel. = 3
        1. +8
          24 January 2019 10: 49
          Weak)))) Very weak.
      3. 0
        24 January 2019 15: 02
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        And how our ground forces will reach London, please tell me.

        Dry!))))
      4. -4
        24 January 2019 22: 43
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        And how our ground forces will reach London, please tell me.

        In the case of a large shecher, neither London, nor this island in general as such, will no longer exist.
        You author do not indulge so foolishly.
        1. +1
          25 January 2019 08: 44
          And drown the island, right? We burn it with a flamethrower in water. And you will be an operator with us.
      5. 0
        25 January 2019 16: 00
        On the bottom of the sea, like 33 heroes soldier
        Do they need this? What is there to do in London? Not in the same place is the command center of the largest fleet in the world.
    4. +2
      24 January 2019 14: 49
      The first blow, whatever one may say, from the sea!
    5. +1
      25 January 2019 11: 38
      An interesting point of view from the author.
      However, I believe that in the future war with the Anglo-Saxons, the main battles will nevertheless unfold at the land theater in Europe ... maritime communications will be interesting only from the point of view of logistics ... the experience of the Second World War and the actions of German submariners confirm this.
      Much will depend on the enemy’s goals in the war ...
      Your logic is strange. Can you tell me if it is easier to wage these very battles in Europe against European armies or against European armies + US army? And even if the United States does not directly participate in the war, leaving them the opportunity to freely supply weapons and other products to Europe is, to put it mildly, short-sighted. In the USSR General Staff, when planning "battles in the land theater in Europe," they were planning to break through that very Faro-Icelandic border to deploy our submarines in the Atlantic and disrupt the transfer of US ground forces to Europe. And your arguments about the fact that "sea communications will be interesting only from the point of view of logistics" are generally masterpieces ... The success or failure of all hostilities depends on logistics in modern warfare (and not only in modern one). As the experience of the last 40 years shows, without well-established logistics, war is generally impossible. Another 200 percent success in combat is a developed industry capable of providing the belligerent army with everything it needs. And only the remaining 40% ​​depend on the army ... So if you objectively analyze the situation, then in the "battles in the land theater in Europe" Russia has nothing to count on, except defeat, in modern conditions. Since neither developed industry, nor excellent logistics, (with our effective managers) Russia will not be able to demonstrate. Perhaps, by the way, this is precisely why Putin cannot demonstrate anything other than puffing his cheeks in relations with Western "partners," since he perfectly understands what threatens him with the transition to active actions.
  3. -9
    24 January 2019 06: 15
    Dear author, everything you wrote is true for the Navy. But you can base several groups of several Poseidons at least in "fishing villages". A bunch of NATO members caught fire because now they will have to control the entire coast, and not individual bases.
    1. +7
      24 January 2019 08: 12
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      But you can base several groups of several Poseidons even in "fishing villages"

      Eshkin mole ... eka brought you. Fishermen will surrender these Poseidons in bloom to the Chinese KK drink to give.
    2. +14
      24 January 2019 08: 14
      Why control "the entire coast"? It is enough to control the narrows and straits indicated on the maps, most of which they already control.
      1. -11
        24 January 2019 08: 45
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        It is enough to control the narrownesses and straits indicated on the maps, most of which they already control.

        but they are not controlled?
        yes, it seems like the "controllers" from the Caspian Sea are easy to install with "Calibers"
        1. +12
          24 January 2019 09: 09
          yes, it seems like the "controllers" from the Caspian Sea are easy to install with "Calibers"


          They are not embedded in concrete, these controllers.
          1. -5
            24 January 2019 09: 19
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            yes, it seems like the "controllers" from the Caspian Sea are easy to install with "Calibers"


            They are not embedded in concrete, these controllers.

            yeah yeah ???? and nothing concrete was invented? Yes, even during the Second World War, they beat concrete.
            1. +19
              24 January 2019 10: 50
              You don't drink that much. I mean to you that "controllers" are not stationary targets, but mobile ones. And here "Caliber"?
              1. +16
                24 January 2019 12: 50
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                And here "Caliber"?

                yes the prodigy from the media. A little something at once Caliber. Journalists do not understand such subtleties. And cheers to the patriots do not need to be explained. The main thing is faith.
                True, they still need to be produced enough, and the distance and mobility of the goals .. In general, everything is not right.
                But you can shoot from sofas with Caliber Iskander Voivode ..
                1. +12
                  24 January 2019 19: 12
                  You can only fart from the couch, so they (hurray-patriots) and farts, i.e. "They carry such a blizzard" that it is a shame for the state, because foreign citizens read this nonsense as well. What will foreigners think of us after reading such pearls - Caliber from the Caspian Sea on Japanese destroyers, as Seryoga hinted.
            2. +2
              24 January 2019 14: 51
              Gauges, in a war at sea- NOTHING, at least for the moment!
              TV, do not trust, for they lie, and without hesitation)))
              1. -2
                25 January 2019 22: 48
                Well, what are you talking about. Normal RCC: Better than American Harpoon.
                1. 0
                  25 January 2019 23: 04
                  What rocket do you consider anti-ship?)
                  1. +1
                    25 January 2019 23: 19
                    3М-54Э, 3М-54Э1 естественно.
                    1. 0
                      26 January 2019 09: 31
                      I agree that it’s better, only the quantity is not great
  4. -15
    24 January 2019 06: 43
    And when was it different? Only the "locking" always ended with a big "constipation" for the lockers and another hemorrhoid for them, especially in the atomic age!
    1. +15
      24 January 2019 07: 10
      Quote: kartalovkolya
      And when was it different? Only the "locking" always ended with a big "constipation" for the lockers and another hemorrhoid for them, especially in the atomic age!

      "Always" is when: RYAP, PMV, WWII?
    2. +20
      24 January 2019 08: 15
      The British have always "locked" us easily and successfully, both in 1807-1810, in the Crimean War.

      The Americans literally kicked out our submarine from the Pacific Fleet in the 80's and kicked all the SSBNs into the Sea of ​​Okhotsk.

      Reality is against you.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. +11
          24 January 2019 09: 09
          Soviet.
          1. -10
            24 January 2019 09: 21
            Quote: timokhin-aa

            Soviet.

            then turn on your igenski "time machine" to meet you
            1. +9
              24 January 2019 10: 51
              Since then, nothing has changed.
              1. +6
                24 January 2019 15: 04
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Since then, nothing has changed.

                Very controversial! Rather, it got worse !! (
      2. +9
        24 January 2019 09: 50
        Well, why break into the oceans of the same Baltic and Black Sea fleets? They have always had the task of defending themselves or dominating strictly in their "puddles". It is only the North and Pacific ones that may really need a dash into the ocean.
        And in any case, the lyrics are all, considering how many ships in the far sea zone we have in service. Even to cover the deployment of underwater "strategists" really are not enough.
        1. 0
          24 January 2019 20: 22
          The Black Sea Fleet was to butt with the 6th Fleet in the Mediterranean.
          1. +3
            24 January 2019 20: 34
            Not certainly in that way.
            Under the USSR, we always kept our IBMs in the Atlantic on a rotational basis, grazing the AUGs as a potential "partner". The USSR could afford it. Yes, in the event of a war, our IBMs that were at that time in the ocean became suicide bombers, but they, in turn, were able to take with them to the next world any enemy AUG (an exchange in our favor is something like giving up an elephant or a horse taking the queen). And after that, the exit to the Atlantic was expected to be blocked by NATO forces, and the Black Sea Fleet was then supposed to operate in its theater, under the protection of friendly shores.
            But now it’s completely unreasonable to break into the Atlantic the bits of the once-mighty Soviet fleet.
            1. +5
              25 January 2019 08: 47
              It is unreasonable, and no one will do it, the article was intended as a reminder to the patriots about how the world map looks and no more)))))

              And then you explain to people that the enemy controls all the inputs and outputs, but they do not understand, such as this, the ocean is big.

              Great, yeah.
      3. 0
        26 May 2019 12: 32
        The Americans literally kicked out our submarine from the Pacific Fleet in the 80s
        1985 "Whiskered Tit" Pacific Fleet
        1985 "Atrina" SF
        1987 "Apport" SF
        They drove, yes ...
    3. -6
      24 January 2019 10: 20
      Quote: kartalovkolya
      Only "locking" always ended with a big "constipation" for the lockers and another hemorrhoid for them

      Well, the Germans in World War II quite successfully carried out the blockade of Britain.
      1. +12
        24 January 2019 10: 51
        They could not block the UK, God is with you.
        1. +1
          24 January 2019 19: 38
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          They could not block the UK, God is with you.

          1939:
          In general, the first six months of the naval and air war against England and France, as well as the fight against merchant ships of neutral countries calling at English and French ports, are characterized by a large number of sunken ships. According to German data, then 496 vessels with a total tonnage of 1,8 million gross tons were sunk. In addition, 354 neutral vessels with a total tonnage of 607 gross tonnage were brought to German ports to determine whether they should be captured in terms of prize law

          1940:
          At first, the struggle against English shipping continued to go with great success and was a severe test for the British. With the beginning of the new year, the number of sunken ships due to the increase in the number of submarines and their radius of action has increased dramatically. Including all other losses from surface ships, aircraft and mines, according to Churchill’s data in his memoirs, it amounted to 325 gt in January, 048 in February, 401 in March, and in April in connection with combat the actions of the English Expeditionary Force in Greece - even 768 and in May - 537 bt. Since June 493, during the year of the war, some German submarines sank almost 653 million gross tonnage of English, allied and neutral tonnage; more than 960 million gross tonnage sunk by surface ships, aircraft and mines should be added to this.

          And what is it? in relation to imports in GB in those years?
          1. +4
            24 January 2019 19: 43
            The result is important. And the result is known. Now, if they still starved the Britons ...

            In addition, do not confuse the blockade and the war on communications.
            1. -1
              24 January 2019 19: 47
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              In addition, do not confuse the blockade and the war on communications.

              as you yourself said:
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              The result is important

              and the result is known in the end, Hitler would not have climbed east, for lemongrasses everything would end sadly, but history does not know the subjunctive mood ... Alas, AH.
              1. +5
                24 January 2019 20: 00
                Wouldn’t climb east, would sign a peace with him. He wanted peace with Britain. Then the Americans would have made a bomb, and one could ...

                In general, it is better not to speculate on such topics, too many options.
          2. +2
            25 January 2019 17: 45
            Quote: PSih2097
            And what is it? in relation to imports in GB in those years?

            Only by the year 42, the efficiency of the kriegsmarine fell sharply thanks to various measures to organize anti-aircraft defense (from the development of escort carriers, anti-submarine ships and patrol aircraft to direct bombing of shipyards and bases).
    4. +1
      24 January 2019 14: 52
      An example in the studio!
  5. +11
    24 January 2019 06: 43
    The article is interesting, I will say more, it looks like the documentation of the General Staff under the heading "c" in recent times. It is clear that NATO has had an identical document for a long time. There remain conclusions and solutions to problems for the General Staff of the Navy. Just don’t "Oh Senya, everything is gone" - are we not able to wage a war, even if autonomously ?, with modern weapons? It is not necessary to rush in a crowd to help somewhere. Clearly coordinated actions between fleets are important, each one controls its own area. And a global war without nuclear weapons is not real. And the article is normal.
  6. 0
    24 January 2019 06: 47
    I apologize, part of the comment fell off.

    A simple question regarding the classic fleet:
    -where missiles fly if you launch them BEFORE passage through the defensive lines of NATO PLO?

    Simple questions regarding the new fleet:
    -how control over the distribution of "Poseidons" from arbitrary points of Kamchatka?
    - how the path through the Arctic is protected and non-navigational waters of Canada from the Poseidons?
    1. +5
      24 January 2019 08: 17
      In the event of a threat, non-navigable water areas of Canada are mined from the air within a few hours by the same Americans. Or, if the ice situation does not allow, then deployed in advance on the approaches to the non-navigable sections of the nuclear submarine.
      1. -6
        24 January 2019 10: 39
        Is everyone mining? belay but it is possible from now on in more detail and with the scheme on the map laughing
        You did not answer a fundamental question - to where the SSBN will drop missiles without crossing the borders of the NATO PLO negative
        And they have not yet answered the fundamental question about the method of catching the "Poseidon" released from an arbitrary point on the Russian Pacific coast negative
        Weak?
        1. +6
          24 January 2019 13: 04
          Poseidon will be tracked by noise.

          SSBNs will be fired only by the decision of the President, which is not the fact that he will take it out before losing the SSBN or at all.

          War may well be both non-nuclear and limited.
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. +5
              24 January 2019 18: 25
              The arguments are over, huh?
          2. -3
            24 January 2019 19: 52
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            War may well be both non-nuclear and limited.

            Do not fantasize - the war with the USA and China can only be nuclear. The remaining opponents are not of interest to us, it is enough for them to know that several of our Tu-160s will destroy any capital of the world.
            1. +3
              25 January 2019 08: 48
              In China, their military doctrine spells out the first non-use of nuclear weapons under any circumstances.

              In the USA, that the use of nuclear weapons is extremely undesirable and should not be brought to this.

              In total, we have two de facto forces who signed the non-nuclear war.
              1. -1
                25 January 2019 09: 50
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                In total, we have two de facto forces who signed the non-nuclear war.

                We have one fact - your naivety. Continue to believe in good wizards, and let those who have a real vision of the world better discuss defense issues.
                1. 0
                  25 January 2019 13: 28
                  Well, here's the commander of the US forces in the Pacific Ocean chalk real vision? Or for example, his colleague in the Atlantic?
                  Read the text of the military doctrine of the Russian Federation?
                  You are just a nameless nickname, if that. Against such docks as the same military doctrine of the Russian Federation, your opinion does not mean anything. Zero. Nothing.
                  1. -1
                    25 January 2019 17: 35
                    Quote: timokhin-aa

                    Well, here's the commander of the US forces in the Pacific Ocean chalk real vision? Or for example, his colleague in the Atlantic?

                    Their vision of problems does not interest me - we have our own military science to win, which was created when the United States did not exist.
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    Read the text of the military doctrine of the Russian Federation?

                    Read it yourself - I was engaged in the implementation of military doctrines, and I know that such documents are published for the general public.
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    You are just a nameless nickname, if that.

                    You are exactly the same.

                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    your opinion doesn’t mean anything. Zero. Nothing.

                    Your opinion is negative, i.e. irrational, because it goes beyond common sense.
          3. 0
            24 January 2019 23: 52
            Do you think that the communication of the SSBN and the coast will work? These are very vulnerable systems. As a rule, antenna fields of low-frequency communication. The enemy knows their locations well and destroys them in advance. So if the SSBNs located in the Arctic Ocean survive, it’s not a fact that they will receive an order and a command to select targets from the catalog. Missiles will not fly without this.
            You have it.
            1. +1
              25 January 2019 08: 50
              Usually there is such a situation. Americans, for example, in the absence of communication with the United States during a planned connection to the communications, have a certain set of procedures, including the possible launch of missiles. The Britons too.
              I do not think that we are an exception.
      2. +1
        25 January 2019 17: 47
        I have a question for the author: aren't strategists able to launch directly "from the pier"? Please don't kick - the fleet is not my topic a bit :)
  7. -5
    24 January 2019 06: 53
    I think if two or three NATO capitals are wiped off the face of the earth, then access to the Atlantic will be greatly simplified.
    1. 0
      24 January 2019 07: 39
      Quote: baudolino
      I think if two or three NATO capitals

      so there is ONE capital. FASHINGTON. everyone else, after not blather !!!!!
      1. +7
        24 January 2019 19: 20
        There are about twenty times fewer cities in Russia than in the United States and NATO, so the forecast is very bad for us, but better for them. Those. almost all of our cities will disappear, and many of their cities will remain completely. If of course you believe in a nuclear winter and other nonsense, then you can continue to shout Urya - Urya.
        1. +1
          25 January 2019 13: 15
          Yeah, well. Without supply and management communications. Plus forest fires and a general atmosphere of panic and fear
          What’s better to get a bullet in your head and die before you even realize it or a splinter in your stomach and suffer a couple of hours and then still die perfectly understanding everything? Damage will be monstrous and there will be no order. Plus radiation, nothing, water of medicines, food of energy or all radioactive. Yes, damn there a lot of things.
    2. +6
      24 January 2019 08: 14
      Quote: baudolino
      I think if two or three NATO capitals are wiped off the face of the earth, then access to the Atlantic will be greatly simplified.

      What will he do there? To escape from radiation? Found a new civilization?
    3. +16
      24 January 2019 08: 18
      In this case, the conflict will be transferred to the nuclear plane, and they will begin to erase us, too, that's all.
  8. +12
    24 January 2019 06: 56
    As the author advised, I read the article to the end, since I am one of those who believe in "going out into the ocean." A very sad picture is obtained. Everything is clear with China - a huge population, GDP comparable to the US, a fleet being built by leaps and bounds, etc. What should we do? To hope that there will be no war, probably this is not an option.
    1. +9
      24 January 2019 08: 18
      There is always a way out))))). But we must prepare to solve such problems.
    2. -2
      24 January 2019 20: 53
      There isn’t any sad picture there - the Poseidon’s launch will take place simultaneously with the launch of ICBMs — the warheads of which will destroy most of NATO’s naval bases and anti-submarine aviation, and there’s no need to talk about any organized anti-submarine defense, there’ll be chaos everywhere - and this is the chaos of Poseidon and takes advantage - it will destroy Great Britain by radioactive contamination, wipe out most of Hawaii and AUG from the face of the earth - which they will meet on the way to the US coasts.
      1. 0
        24 January 2019 21: 59
        And now we open and read the military doctrine. And there, oh God, Russia pledges first not to deliver a nuclear strike. And it is not worth counting on the reciprocal counter-response, and even more so on the reciprocal one after the US withdraws from the INF Treaty. The first to strike is also unlikely to succeed under the current rulers.
      2. +2
        25 January 2019 08: 51
        Why do we need Poseidons if we have already managed to launch ICBMs?
    3. -2
      24 January 2019 22: 56
      With China, everything is clear-a huge population, GDP comparable to the American ....


      China's GDP is about 12 trillions of USD, Amer’s - about 21, what is comparable there? GDP per capita is generally a complete tragedy - 8826 $.
    4. -1
      25 January 2019 18: 31
      To build defense along the same lines and not to let NATO with their tomahawks to our borders. The Sea of ​​Okhotsk is real, the Faroe Islands - Iceland I doubt .... winked
      1. 0
        26 January 2019 22: 05
        Correctly doubt it.
        They have the means, we do not.
  9. +8
    24 January 2019 06: 57
    I always said that you can’t argue against geography.
    1. +11
      24 January 2019 08: 18
      Quote: Tlauicol
      I always said that you can’t argue against geography.

      Dig a tunnel from Fisherman straight to California! Rotenberg can handle it!
    2. +4
      24 January 2019 08: 24
      Quote: Tlauicol
      I always said that you can’t argue against geography.

      Yeah 8)))
      Especially if you are good at cunning what the author is doing 8)))
      I don’t understand in any way why their "chains of islands" are declared an impassable barrier, our Kuriles are a gateway ... We cannot build airfields there, we cannot place a serious ground-based air defense component there, we cannot deploy UBO units there? Does our religion forbid?
      1. +12
        24 January 2019 08: 35
        YES, we are already building this there, the question is not that, but that we need to go further with our submarines and ships, beyond the Kuril Islands. And this is where the problems begin. in fact, four Virginias completely plug this exit, and we have nothing to get them - PLO aircraft are almost on their knees, and they will plow these Kuril airfields and bases with Tomahawks in the first hours of the conflict.
        1. -4
          24 January 2019 08: 43
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          And this is where the problems begin. in fact, four "Virginias" completely shut this outlet

          Drown if the Americans lack brains. In conditions of dominance in the air and on the surface is not a particularly difficult task.
          But something tells me that they are not so much Matrosovs.
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          Yes, and these Kuril airfields and bases will be tilled by Tomahawks

          8)))
          Long before they reach Washington and other American cities, nuclear mushrooms will grow, and the Poseidon's brains will begin to carry out their program. A massive missile strike on Russian territory is an unambiguous response-counter strike with all available means. Otherwise, you may not be in time.
          1. +8
            24 January 2019 09: 11
            Drown if the Americans lack brains. In conditions of dominance in the air and on the surface is not a particularly difficult task.


            How to sink a submarine without PLO facilities?

            nuclear mushrooms will grow over Washington and other American cities, and the Poseidon brains will begin to carry out their program. A massive missile strike on Russian territory is an unambiguous response-counter strike with all available means.


            Would you at least read the military doctrine of the Russian Federation or something.
            1. -2
              24 January 2019 09: 25
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              Would you at least read the military doctrine of the Russian Federation or something.

              what is written for you read.
              Do you really think that we will wait when they hit us ???
              1. +3
                24 January 2019 19: 27
                Our whole history shows that yes we wait when they hit us, and then we try to react.
            2. +1
              24 January 2019 10: 44
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              How to sink a submarine without PLO facilities?

              And what religion prevents in the conditions of domination in the air and on the surface to apply them?
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              Would you at least read the military doctrine of the Russian Federation or something.

              Is there something about forgiveness in it? Like "substitute the left"?
              Let me remind you that Obama's "brilliant" idea of ​​abandoning a retaliatory strike was not supported in Russia.
              And the advice, of course, is good ... Try it.
              1. +7
                24 January 2019 13: 05
                And what religion prevents in the conditions of domination in the air and on the surface to apply them?


                They need to HAVE for this. To start. Well and lips it is necessary to roll up about domination.
                1. +1
                  24 January 2019 13: 59
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  Well, you should roll your lips about domination.

                  To whom? AUG?
                  Oh yes, I forgot. These are their planes. They are able to operate with aircraft carriers much more efficiently than ours from ground-based airfields. And also the Russian Orthodox Church long ago introduced a ban on the destruction of their carrier-based aircraft by our air defense systems, from S-400 to ZSU-23-2. Anyone who breaks the ban faces an anathema.

                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  They must have for this. To start.

                  So-so-so ... That is, you say that Russia has no means of PLO? Damn, today is just a day of discovery ...
                  1. +10
                    24 January 2019 16: 32
                    Quote: Spade
                    So-so-so ... That is, you say that Russia has no means of PLO? Damn, today is just a day of discovery ...

                    About how many wonderful discoveries open sources are preparing for us. smile
                    In the same week, there was an article about plans for further modernization of the IL-38, in which the figure of the availability of the upgraded IL-38N for 2018 was announced - as many as 8 pieces for all fleets.
                    With the ship's crew, everything is still better - for the whole Pacific Fleet there are three pr.1155. Less than straits. smile
                    1. +2
                      25 January 2019 12: 39
                      Which, in addition, are deployed in Vladivostok, that is, 1000 km from the Kuril Islands. And taking into account the fact that you will have to run to the straits around Sakhalin to get away from Japanese aviation ... There is also a diesel submarine brigade, which also could cover the straits.
              2. +3
                24 January 2019 15: 21
                Quote: Spade
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                How to sink a submarine without PLO facilities?

                And what religion prevents in the conditions of domination in the air and on the surface to apply them?
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Would you at least read the military doctrine of the Russian Federation or something.

                Is there something about forgiveness in it? Like "substitute the left"?
                Let me remind you that Obama's "brilliant" idea of ​​abandoning a retaliatory strike was not supported in Russia.
                And the advice, of course, is good ... Try it.

                Take a look at the optimistic "wiki", about our PLO, and "perspective"))
                This is without nuclear submarines, with which, in the Pacific Fleet, and indeed, there is little left, at all (
        2. -2
          24 January 2019 08: 49
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          in fact, four "Virginias" completely shut this exit,

          and if this "four" Virginias "" close the way ???
          it’s not like we are to them, they will trample towards us
          1. +11
            24 January 2019 09: 11
            Close the whole ocean? How?
            1. -4
              24 January 2019 09: 27
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              Close the whole ocean? How?

              so we are not talking about Akiyan. about the APPROACH to the place.
              and here is the answer to all your chatter. HOW DO ALL THE OCEAN CLOSE ???
              1. +9
                24 January 2019 10: 52
                Look at the map.
                1. +7
                  24 January 2019 19: 31
                  Yes Seryoga probably the last time I saw a map of the Pacific Ocean at a geography lesson in grade 5.
            2. -2
              24 January 2019 10: 47
              8)))
              In order to block the passages between the islands of the Kuril ridge, the location of "Virginia" should not be "the whole ocean"
              1. +5
                24 January 2019 13: 06
                True, but who will prevent them from reaching these places?
                1. 0
                  24 January 2019 13: 53
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  True, but who will prevent them from reaching these places?

                  Great question. We return to a new circle, to where we started. Why is their chain of islands an impregnable wall, and ours is a passage yard that will block anyone who is not lazy 8)))
                  1. +10
                    24 January 2019 14: 01
                    Because they hear our substrates in 80% of cases, and we have them in 20, because they have a huge numerical superiority - and our superiority will break this superiority, we will destroy our forehead on it.

                    Go against five people fight, if it is not clear.
                    1. -4
                      24 January 2019 14: 09
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      because they have a huge numerical superiority - and this superiority will break our defense

                      Let it break. "The Poseidons will already go to their targets, ICBMs will already arrive in American cities.
                      You do not understand the simplest: a massive missile strike is definitely a Russian reciprocal counter-strike. No one will wait to find out whether nuclear warheads were nuclear warheads or not.
                      Or you see, but it is not profitable for you to focus on this.

                      And they will certainly launch rockets. For otherwise they do not know how to seize supremacy in the air.
                      1. +1
                        24 January 2019 19: 42
                        I wonder what kind of benefit you are talking about for Timokhin? And second, and you are sure that "Poseidons will already go to their targets, ICBMs will already arrive in American cities." I'm not sure if the beginning of the conflict can be protracted and their submarines will reach their targets in advance.
                      2. +1
                        25 January 2019 08: 53
                        It's getting worse - their submarines are always there. In the same Avachinsky bay or nearby. There are always one or two "hunters".
                    2. 0
                      24 January 2019 14: 19
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      Go against five people fight, if it is not clear.

                      Do you know how the anti-tank battery, included in the reserve reserve regiment?
                      Here, for example, the enemy broke through, we must stop him. And the infantry is slow. And in order to provide her with time to deploy and engage in defense, the anti-tank battery occupies the line. With the task of slowing its progress. 9-12 cars. Against the enemy brigade ...
                      So it goes...
                      Is the hint clear?
                      1. +3
                        24 January 2019 18: 27
                        More than that, but the PTBatr has the CHANCE to do something. True, with the appearance of thermal imagers on the tanks - near-zero.

                        But the sea is still worse.
                  2. +15
                    24 January 2019 17: 45
                    We return to a new circle, to where we started. Why is their chain of islands an impregnable wall, and ours is a passage yard that will block anyone who is not lazy

                    The question is actually easy. Because their territory is equipped, saturated with protection against all types of attacks, but ours is not.
                    It is quite a solution to push the border away from Vladivostok, the internal Sea of ​​Okhotsk and Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky. For this, it is necessary to build \ restore the n-th number of bases in the Kuril Islands and Kamchatka with decent layered air defense, missile systems with anti-ship missiles, a network of aerodromes with fighter (maybe not at the maximum operating, but ready to accept a sufficient number of aircraft for 100 % providing benefits in the air) and a very powerful aircraft PLO. Further, there should be in sufficient quantities on duty, and preferably on the Kuril bases themselves, the IPC and at least non-nuclear submarines, which together with the PLO aviation could protect the adjacent waters and drive away the enemy’s boats, or prevent them from fully deploying.

                    Then it will turn out to push the boundaries where enemies can act freely and fulfill the tasks set by the command to capture and control the straits. And this is the minimum.

                    It is desirable to have an attacking component in conjunction with the defensive component described above. And this is a sufficient number of ocean ships of the 1st and 2nd rank, which could fight off enemy air raids offshore, launch a missile attack on enemy ship groups, and most likely more important on enemy key bases in the region. Does this turn out to be an attack on bases in Japan, Pearl Harbor, Guam? Which will be defended by the crazy US fleet and their satellites. The task is not even fantastic, just as an idea of ​​what to do in theory.
                    In principle, China should strive, if not to inflict a specific defeat on the United States, at least not allow itself to be locked up and build a strong enough fleet to break through these containment belts if necessary.

                    Well, now back to the question why their chain of islands is an impregnable wall, and ours is a passage yard.
                    Because all that is for the defense of bases, islands, straits with us no. There are no bases on the Kuril Islands, IICs are not there to guard the straits, nor are there to withdraw nuclear boats from ICBMs from a single base. There is something 40 years ago in the number of 4-6 pieces on the entire coast and all straits-islands. There is no aviation PLO, there are several aircraft that are physically unable to control and search for the latest US 4th generation boats. No, they will find someone, but it will be a drop in the ocean, which categorically does not play a role. We have nuclear submarines throughout the Pacific Fleet in formation 3, maximum 4 things.
                    That is, there is simply nothing physically, physically to protect the straits-islands-bases. Although it’s worth starting even with another - there are no bases themselves. And they need to be built, equipped. Let's look to the north, how the bases rivet there, put up air defense systems and so on and look at the Pacific Fleet and the Kuril Islands - it becomes obvious that the work is simply not going on, they are doing nothing.
                    The enemy has an overwhelming advantage in all that can only be imagined, how to play cards when a person is dealt cards, and the other does not) When they specifically take up the question and it will be seen, using the example of the north, then we can think about what the future holds in theory something can be opposed. If you think about the theory right now (tomorrow), I obviously think everything. Here is the answer to the question.
                    1. +6
                      24 January 2019 18: 29
                      Great comment!
                    2. +2
                      25 January 2019 16: 49
                      Quote: DarkMatter
                      We have nuclear submarines throughout the Pacific Fleet in formation 3, with a maximum of 4 pieces.

                      Recently, in a series of articles on our fleet uv. Andrei from Chelyabinsk wrote that there is actually one multipurpose submarine at the Pacific Fleet.
                      1. +1
                        25 January 2019 17: 15
                        I know, I had to count everything except the SSBN ... And it would be completely sad.
                    3. +1
                      26 January 2019 16: 34
                      Closing good
                      But why didn't you mention Poseidons? crying
                      1. +3
                        26 January 2019 18: 22
                        I AM? There was no talk about Poseidon.
                        We have nuclear submarines throughout the Pacific Fleet

                        It was about the nuclear submarines (pikes and loaves) at the Pacific Fleet.
                        Moreover, I don’t know what it is (Poseidon) and I don’t want to discuss it. I don’t have the habit of talking about a spherical horse in a vacuum, which can be a horse, or maybe an elephant, or maybe a whale. Fantasize?

                        It’s also an atomic weapon, that is, it is the beginning of a nuclear war with the use of other types of these deadly weapons, with all the consequences.
                        But our question was not about World War III, but about the protection of our borders and about the creation of favorable conditions for the protection of our SSBNs and their calm patrolling. In this case, in the east of the country, where there is nothing and nothing really.
                        Moreover, as far as I know, the carriers are not ready, he is not on combat duty. So what about Poseidon without me, sorry =)
                      2. +1
                        26 January 2019 19: 37
                        It was a joke of humor .... Quite possibly, it didn’t work out feel Sorry for tongue-tied tongue .....
                        And about your suggestions - I agree completely and completely, only (as, apparently, you))) I understand that this will not happen in the foreseeable future, nor in the boundless ....
                      3. +1
                        26 January 2019 23: 10
                        I suspected it, but nevertheless decided to answer in full =)
                        It’s hard to say about the future.
                        Let us hope that when they finish equipping the North, they will continue eastward. By then, all problems with delays in the construction of the entire necessary list of ships, aircraft, etc., will already be solved. And the saturation of the army will go at a rhythmic pace. It is clear that this will not be earlier than the 25th year, or even the 30th. But in part, it will be possible to begin preparation earlier. The main thing that the desire was.
                        Although this is not such a distant future - only yesterday Crimea was and so on, and already 5 years count, it has passed. Time flies)
                      4. 0
                        26 January 2019 23: 50
                        It is possible to hope, and probably even need not to ferment .....
                        But I am sensitive to what is going on in our country, and in "legal proceedings" in particular .... Somehow I can't find reasons for joy .... I agree, it was worse at other times, but there though everything grew logically. And now....
                        And yes, I congratulate you, we received just one trawler, in just 4 years. And the Koreans, meanwhile, transmit 200000 tons through 2,5 to the client))
              2. +7
                24 January 2019 15: 23
                Quote: Spade
                8)))
                In order to block the passages between the islands of the Kuril ridge, the location of "Virginia" should not be "the whole ocean"

                We are the normal exit of boats, can not provide ALREADY now
  10. +15
    24 January 2019 07: 04
    I would like to highlight two quotes from the text - "Conclusion: the Russian fleet is able to act in the World Ocean only in peacetime" And "As you can see, the Chinese, too, are not all easy with access to the ocean. How do they react to it? They build offensive forces, of course. And this is a much smarter reaction than ours.". Of course, I can only express my opinion on the article, and my understanding of the topic. It's good that the author takes into account the peculiarities of our geography, this is a plus. It's good that the author highlights the features of the pre-war or pre-war period, and, directly, the beginning of the hostilities themselves. than he disagrees, Alexander somehow stubbornly refuses to notice that some of our boats should initially be on combat patrol, that is, to bypass all the "narrows", and, in case of war, to launch a missile strike at the aggressor. Second, now is not the era sailing or steam fleet, the beginning of a big war against Russia, with the blocking of the straits, this is the beginning of a global nuclear war. It is unlikely that there will be raids, such as the breakthrough of "Bismarck" and "Prince Eugen" through the Danish Strait, in order to operate on communications. ships and strike groups of the enemy fleet, and the naval bases and commercial ports of the enemy, his industrial cities, along with the entire infrastructure. Here, speaking of "offensive forces," understand not about any "butting" in the ocean with the AUG with your strike force, but about the destruction of enemy ships in bases. We do not have the ability to build more ships than the United States and its allies can build.
    Also, speaking of the closed nature of our fleet. Even the Caspian, a completely enclosed sea-lake, could become the site of sea-based missiles capable of reaching the enemy in Europe and America, a place where there is no US fleet. The same can be said about the Arctic. It is a pity that the topic of Arctic boats was practically buried with the sharp "Sharks". It was a unique boat specifically for the Arctic, with excellent autonomy and comfort for the crew, and a powerful combat potential. Project 941 Akula-class submarines coped with the harsh conditions of the North Pole, had the ability to break through the ice mass, which was repeatedly demonstrated in practice. The characteristics of mass, strength and power plants made it possible to break ice 2,5 m and deliver unexpected blows from the Arctic. For this, the bow rudders are pushed in, and the ice-breaking devices of the bow and deckhouse are slowly pressed against the frozen water column and the boat easily comes out under the water. Not everything is so bad with our geography, it is much more problematic with the current government of the bourgeoisie. From cause and effect.
    1. +7
      24 January 2019 08: 20
      that is, to bypass all the "narrows", and, in the event of war, to launch a missile strike at the aggressor.


      They are very tightly tracked after passing these narrows. If their nuclear submarines on duty lose our boat after leaving the base, then by the estimated time of its approach to the same Faro-Icelandic border, everything is already on the ears, as are the reserve forces in the United States itself.
      1. +2
        24 January 2019 10: 19
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        They are very closely tracked after the passage of these narrows.
        This, of course, is a problem, but not a sentence.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        then by the estimated time of its approach to the same Faro-Icelandic border everything is already "on the ears"
        With the modern development of rocket weapons (and, all the more promising), it is possible to strike with ballistic and cruise missiles without overcoming any frontiers or control zones such as SOSUS. No matter how funny it looks, whether a submarine in the Caspian Sea, where there are no US and NATO forces at sea and in the air, there is no need for low noise, a rocket launch, a nuclear strike on the USA, and from there. The depths and sizes of the Caspian allow, if desired, to keep platform submarines there, for which only autonomy, comfort and the ability to secretly change position will be important.
        1. +2
          24 January 2019 19: 54
          " It will be necessary to destroy not the merchant ships and strike groups of the enemy fleet, but the naval bases and trading ports of the enemy, his industrial cities, together with all the infrastructure.
          But this means that we need to strike first and suddenly. I do not think that Putin bears such insidious plans.
          But I support your thought about ICBMs from the Caspian and I think that even submarines are not needed there. You just need to do it cheaply - hide containers with ICBMs under water.
          1. +2
            24 January 2019 21: 53
            Quote: Fan-Fan
            But this means that we need to strike first and suddenly. I do not think that Putin bears such insidious plans.
            I, too, cannot know what plans our leadership has. I hope, however, that the country will not be surrendered, like, "I brought you peace!", According to Chamberlain ... leadership, in general, the current situation. If we talk about the fleet, these are not only enemy ships, these are shipyards, bases, storage facilities, this is all the infrastructure without which the fleet cannot fight for a long time. This is what I wanted to emphasize when speaking about the strike, opposing it to the "wall to wall" war at sea, for which we now have neither the means, nor the strength, and, by and large, already even the time.
    2. +8
      24 January 2019 08: 21
      Quote: Per se.
      Of course, I can only express my opinion on the article

      You do not quite understand the meaning of the article. The author substantiates his thesis that the so-called Poseidon in practical terms. For having already classic means of total destruction of the enemy, this product is just a waste of money.
      1. +4
        24 January 2019 10: 04
        Quote: Puncher
        You did not quite understand the meaning of the article. The author substantiates his thesis about the futility of the so-called. Poseidon in practical terms.
        Eugene, the author's article is called "There is no way out. On the geographical closeness of the oceans for the Russian Navy". Yes, Alexander Timokhin here recalls Poseidon (previously," Poseidon Atomic Drone: A Useless Superweapon. "), But I don’t think that now in the article, the main topic was a torpedo, the article touches upon the issues of the entire Russian fleet About the "jihad torpedo", as, again, a consequence of the current government, I spoke earlier, I will not repeat here.
      2. +7
        24 January 2019 10: 53
        The article is not only about this.

        We need a conscious approach to naval construction, taking into account these factors.
  11. -8
    24 January 2019 07: 24
    Damantsev's colleague appeared. Congratulations.
    The problem of our fleet is considered in isolation from the rest of the army and its capabilities. Those same Americans, for all their capabilities, simply physically will not be able to tear to pieces and block all of our Navy at the same time and with the same quality. Why do we have coastal defense and aviation? Only for beauty or to ensure the exit of the fleet due to the active opposition of the enemy?
    Well, about Poseidon. It is unlikely that such weapons will be withdrawn to the designated areas during the period of active hostilities that have begun. Such things are done in advance, as well as the removal to convenient ports of ordinary sea containers filled in the form of "Club" or "Caliber".
    Gone are the days of battles of naval armada, "now things are done differently" ©, as one movie character said on another occasion, however.
    1. +10
      24 January 2019 08: 22
      Those same Americans, for all their capabilities, simply physically will not be able to tear to pieces and block all of our Navy at the same time and with the same quality.


      Why do you think so? Add up the forces of the USA and NATO in the west, and the USA, Japan and Australia in the east. Very impressive.
      1. -9
        24 January 2019 08: 51
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        and Australia in the east.

        and these as AT ALL ????? laughing
        1. +12
          24 January 2019 09: 12
          Participate in all Amer’s wars.
          1. -9
            24 January 2019 09: 31
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Participate in all Amer’s wars.

            rzhunemagu laughing
            tribals, Sumerians, also participating laughing three soldiers laughing
            Yes, what trough will swim to Russia? laughing
            they already piss china laughing
            see yesterday's news
            1. +15
              24 January 2019 10: 54
              Ask how many Australians fought in WWII, or at least in Vietnam.
            2. +4
              24 January 2019 19: 58
              Sergey, have you heard about the ANZUS military bloc? Probably not, since you write such comments.
      2. -2
        24 January 2019 11: 33
        That our fleet is weak enough - no one argues. I am talking about a set of retaliatory measures against our potential opponents. Again, the last argument of modern kings has not been canceled - it is only Kaptsov who believes that a nuclear strike against an enemy fleet will not do any good. It will bring, just like this: control and communications will fail first of all, and what remains afloat after the strike will no longer be a full-fledged strike force.
        So everything will depend on the degree of passion. As someone said Korobeinikov: "if something happens, no one will open up" ©.
  12. +18
    24 January 2019 07: 26
    Still, there is one caveat. The war does not start from scratch, there will be a period of tension in which hostilities are not ongoing. It is at this time that you can deploy forces in the ocean, having passed the indicated narrownesses.
    It would be something to unfold ... Today, the question of some ocean raids is not worth it, in principle, we would have to cover the same Sea of ​​Okhotsk and Barents for happiness ...
    1. -8
      24 January 2019 07: 42
      And who warned you about this.
      1. -5
        24 January 2019 07: 59
        Quote: Miron
        And who warned you about this.

        are they from outer space SUDDENLY by the whole fleet? belay
        or "KUK" in the Black Sea will start a war?
    2. +10
      24 January 2019 08: 23
      Maybe yes, maybe no.

      For example, they can start a long blockade even in a week. Just wrap merchant ships and all. Do not touch our flag.

      As an example.
      1. -9
        24 January 2019 08: 53
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        For example, they can start a long blockade even in a week. Just wrap merchant ships and all.

        here is the signal. start antifashizmo
        1. +12
          24 January 2019 09: 13
          Aiming through a bubble of water, more precisely, right?
    3. +1
      24 January 2019 10: 34
      and then there will be a thaw period, the nuclear submarines will return, they will be repaired after the trip, and here it will aggravate again
    4. +5
      24 January 2019 15: 28
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      Still, there is one caveat. The war does not start from scratch, there will be a period of tension in which hostilities are not ongoing. It is at this time that you can deploy forces in the ocean, having passed the indicated narrownesses.
      It would be something to unfold ... Today, the question of some ocean raids is not worth it, in principle, we would have to cover the same Sea of ​​Okhotsk and Barents for happiness ...

      Question: WHAT?)) Everything that "spins and jerks" selects a resource, without normal repair, because fate, because the rest are either "tired", in "slop", under repair, with shifts to the right, ad infinitum. REAL composition, differs from what statistics and reports "draw" to us
    5. +5
      24 January 2019 18: 05
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Of course you can, but they will have comrades everywhere (if not to say around) who are ready to drown them at any moment. And knowing the balance of power, it will be 15 by 1, which will heroically take enemies with him (I hope) and die. But the point is in such a combat mission, to die to die? What task will the command put before these forces, where should they go, because most likely not a single port will accept them, and we do not have supply bases, even if the neutral conditional Venezuela accepts, they will carry them to the port at once, together with the port. What to do in the ocean without supplies and the ability to replenish ammunition? Back then they will not let me go already request
      The only thing is the nuclear submarines, which theoretically with cruise missiles with special warheads can be pulled somewhere around New York.
      It is necessary to cover the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, but I don’t see the desire to do this at the command. Yes, and opportunities, because stupidly we can’t build minesweepers, but they didn’t even begin. But the cover of tankers and their delivery routes in the north is at an accelerated pace. Priorities are different. From this I do not understand the moaning of people, everything is the case ...
    6. 0
      24 January 2019 20: 35
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      there will be a period of tension in which hostilities are not yet underway
      Will not be. A few years after leaving the INF Treaty, the benefits of a surprise strike may outweigh the problems caused by the underdevelopment of troops (first they will announce a weekly readiness in combat ready units, then everyone will be given a command to exit half an hour before launch). But it works both ways.
    7. 0
      25 January 2019 13: 27
      Tension has been around for five years, so what? Well, let's get all that we have left. Then there are two options: they crap right away start a war (and it might not have happened), or crap calmly wait for the expiration of the autonomy of our ships. Alles Kaput. An army ready for war must fight. Immediately.
  13. -8
    24 January 2019 07: 32
    I just described fear request
    Horror caught up with the author -> author -> author.
    Thought and gave birth to a conclusion.
    But no one in the General Staff thought of neutralizing this belay
    BRAVO!!!
    1. +8
      24 January 2019 08: 02
      Primitive ... our rearmament has long passed ...
      1. +2
        24 January 2019 08: 10
        Quote: The same LYOKHA
        Primitive ... our rearmament has long passed.

        retarded hi
        1. +5
          24 January 2019 08: 11
          Damn ... I'm in shock what ... I'll run to the toilet.
          1. +3
            24 January 2019 09: 35
            Quote: The same LYOKHA
            Damn ... I'm in shock ... I'll run to the toilet.

            I was kidding
    2. The comment was deleted.
  14. -4
    24 January 2019 07: 35
    Honestly, but I didn't even finish reading it to the end, because the thought overcame: "why is it necessary to break through the active ports and bases of the enemy?"
    In theory, nothing prevents us from going out in peacetime. In the military, mixing with earth and stones, depending on who is located where, the enemy "strongholds" of supply and other support of the ship's composition of the enemy fleets, We destroy airfields and the path is relatively free.
    Oh, for such a righteous deed the missiles will not regret, I hope.
    And there you look already enemies and change their minds to fight. what
    1. +8
      24 January 2019 08: 24
      Well, the question is precisely what it is worth to have the capabilities indicated by you - right up to the landing on the Faroe Islands, which was planned under the USSR.

      But they are not.
      1. -5
        24 January 2019 11: 59
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Well, the question is precisely what it is worth to have the capabilities indicated by you - right up to the landing on the Faroe Islands, which was planned under the USSR.

        But they are not.

        Why do you need landing on the Faroe Islands? belay
        What to put a pair of warheads into a megaton there with another equivalent hand does not rise?
        So do not spare them, they will not spare us, and they themselves chose their fate by joining NATO.
        Therefore, "bury" them under radioactive ash and forget.
        1. +7
          24 January 2019 14: 02
          Well, and we will be buried the same. You think, think. Nuclear weapons are NOT ONLY WITH US.
          1. -5
            24 January 2019 14: 23
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Well, so they will bury us.

            So what do you offer to give up?
            1. +7
              24 January 2019 14: 45
              To begin to start thinking with your head.
          2. -5
            24 January 2019 20: 38
            Well, okay. There are five more of them, it will be possible to take 2-3 Russian populations with you. Exchange in our favor. And Siberia is great - Siberians will survive there and avenge us.
      2. +1
        24 January 2019 20: 25
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        all the way to the landing on the Faroe Islands
        Why do we need landing on the Faroe Islands? It’s very beautiful there, of course, mountains, waterfalls, the sea, for tourists, but we also have such places. Almost any landing is a bunch of casualties (be it Normandy or Novorossiysk). What is the purpose of the landing? For the passage of the surface and submarine fleet to the shores of America, landing is not needed. We are not sending troops to Turkey for the passage of the Bosphorus. Please describe the possible situations, scenarios, reasons that will force us to land on the Faroe Islands and Norway (which is a member of NATO). We have so few ships, send them to the Atlantic for certain death - again a sea of ​​corpses. Surely in any scenario there is an opportunity to turn the chain of events in such a way as to do without landing. SOSUS tracking station in Faroe Islands can be neutralized without landing
  15. -4
    24 January 2019 07: 38
    Actually, our nuclear submarines go to the oceans and carry combat duty there. The author does not seem to be in the know.
    Moreover, Russia considers an attempt to close the straits in the Pacific Ocean as an act of war, and this will be the answer of nuclear weapons.
    We do not live in peacetime, because the author has an opinion. This is the result of the work of competent specialists.
    1. +8
      24 January 2019 08: 23
      Quote: Miron
      Actually, our nuclear submarines go to the oceans and carry combat duty there.

      How many? Rather, how many of them are capable of carrying and how many actually carry, compare with the number of anti-submarine forces of the likely enemy and their allies and draw a conclusion.
    2. +16
      24 January 2019 08: 26
      The author is aware of the SSBN combat patrol areas.
      It happened.
      And the author is aware of what methods, by whom and when the SSBNs were driven there.
      Can you indicate the patrol areas on the map? There are not many of them.

      Do not be clever in general.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. +12
          24 January 2019 09: 13
          Our can.
          There is no Amersky, only approximately.
      2. 0
        26 January 2019 16: 45
        Forgive him winked He is not smart feel Just another .... uh-uh ...... a character who believes that everything happens exactly as they said in the program "Visiting a Fairy Tale". EMNIP, mandatory for viewing in the USSR Armed Forces at 10.00 Moscow time on Sundays lol And about all sorts of shootouts - from action movies and computer games. The first ones look on the couch, secondly you can restart feel
    3. 0
      25 January 2019 21: 49
      According to the list 11, in the ranks 7, on the database 1-2
  16. -5
    24 January 2019 08: 00
    Everything is right! I looked at the map and everything is clear. Khrushchev therefore did not begin to develop a surface ocean fleet, but relied on submarines.
    1. +9
      24 January 2019 08: 27
      So the submarines are locked. There is no more stealth factor in these narrownesses. In peacetime, after passing the same Faroe-Icelandic border, you have to break away from the forces of the NATO PLO. In a military boat will be attacked upon detection and all.
      1. -1
        25 January 2019 18: 56
        Yes, there is no reason for the SSBN to leave these areas. They will also get the United States from there, which is what is required of them. And to track THEIR forces in their sea is much easier for us.
        1. 0
          26 January 2019 17: 20
          SSBN makes sense to hide. And "bastions" greatly simplify their search.

          But most importantly - Poseidon, your favorite how slip to Seattle? laughing
  17. +3
    24 January 2019 08: 06
    So there is a plus. If you turn this flaw in dignity, then - it will be easier to defend. They will not come close to us, fewer ships are needed.
    1. +6
      24 January 2019 08: 28
      Yes, there is such a plus, this is the flip side of the coin, so to speak.

      But such a passive defense has a bunch of minuses - for example, we won’t let them go physically, that is, their ships won’t be able to go here or here, but at least we can slaughter missiles at us from afar.

      These lines would be pushed aside somehow.

      Well, the problem of the vulnerability of the Pacific territories remains.
    2. -3
      24 January 2019 08: 43
      If you turn this flaw in dignity, then - it will be easier to defend.

      I agree. As Einstein said, everything in the world is relative. If it’s hard for us to break into the oceans, it’s also hard for the enemy to break through to our shores. And given that we are not going to attack, we have nothing to do on the shores of others.
      1. +9
        24 January 2019 09: 15
        And given that we are not going to attack, we have nothing to do on foreign shores.


        There are two lines of defense at sea - one passes through the enemy’s bases, the second along our own.
        1. -1
          24 January 2019 10: 36
          There are two lines of defense at sea - one passes through the enemy’s bases, the second along our own.

          If it is not possible to send a fleet to block enemy bases, then the second line of defense will pass through narrowness and straits
          1. +3
            24 January 2019 10: 55
            But so far this is not so with us.
  18. -3
    24 January 2019 08: 21
    All reasoning and analysis of the author takes place in line with the American concept of limited nuclear war. This is when they land troops in Kamchatka, and we do not use nuclear weapons for fear of retaliation. But the opinion of the Americans is only the opinion of the Americans. In the case (according to our military doctrine) of a full-scale retaliatory strike, there will be no one to land troops in Kamchatka and no longer need anything. If, in this version, Russia retains at least some potential for access to the open ocean, then I think such (militarily small) countries like Turkey, Denmark and Sweden simply will not mind.
    1. +14
      24 January 2019 08: 37
      Why do our patriots always forget that the enemy also has nuclear weapons?

      I'm just curious.
      1. -4
        24 January 2019 09: 18
        After the Second World War, we are absolutely not interested in what the enemy has there. There should not be a repeat of 45 of the year, any dangerous enemy should simply be burned in a nuclear flame. Just because the world in which Russia will not be we do not need. Let it burn to hell.
      2. +5
        24 January 2019 09: 30
        But I'm wondering, do you seriously think that a hypothetical American landing on Kamchatka will not lead to a nuclear response? Although .... with our government of constant "concern" nothing can be sure.
        1. +3
          24 January 2019 20: 15
          If they capture Kamchatka, I’m sure that our Foreign Ministry will certainly express concern, well, we’ll stop buying tomatoes from them.
    2. -1
      24 January 2019 10: 17
      Nobody will land anywhere. In the 80s they needed an airfield and a "point" where resources would be accumulated for the development of a further offensive. In the presence of tanker aircraft and aircraft carrier aircraft, everything will be decided anyway. Moreover, both airborne and ABB are now acting as carriers of aviation. I'm talking about the F-35.
      It's all a burp of the old generals - Overlord, Okinawa, Tim Spirit. "
      Disarming aviation strikes, a humanitarian disaster and again, "Let us eat" like in the 90s. They don't need such a crap, they will bring everything on a silver platter. And they will set the price.
      1. +5
        24 January 2019 11: 01
        Do you know how many fighters in the air are continuously provided by the Wasp with the 20 F-35B air group and six turntables? Two.

        Or it is necessary to work in waves - they took off, bombed, sat down and hid behind the URO ships for half a day while the planes were preparing for departure.

        In reality, in order to exclude the possibility of the Russians attacking the Aleutians from the air, and for delivering truly massive strikes further into the depths of the territory of the Russian Federation, it is vital to occupy at least Kamchatka (or at least separately taken Yelizovo) and, behind it, the Kuriles. And in order not to catch any surprise, then it is necessary either to completely destroy or occupy Anadyr and Providence. Taking into account how it is all covered by forces, it will be even easier and cheaper to capture than to destroy.

        Tankers in the war with Russia just do not eat enough, if that.
        1. -2
          24 January 2019 11: 55
          Yes, at least one. There is a clever network-centric word.
          However, I do not impose my opinion.
          Just wanted to help. Good luck)))
          1. +4
            24 January 2019 12: 04
            Network centrics still require carriers. I saw the F-35 target, he must "give" it to someone according to Niffka the same. Accordingly, we are talking about some kind of numerous forces of ships and aircraft. And this already requires one, second, third, etc.

            A pinprick does not dare, even high-tech.
    3. +2
      24 January 2019 10: 37
      everything is exactly the opposite.
      Americans believe that Russians have such a concept.
      inflicted a couple of limited strikes to scare Europe - in the hope that the Americans would not start a global war because of this, and similarly to the Americans, there’s nothing to do, they don’t have a suitable tactical nuclear weapon
  19. -7
    24 January 2019 08: 45
    How many Poseidons does it take to destroy any numbered US fleet?
    1. +2
      24 January 2019 09: 14
      Poseidons cannot.

      Poseidons are useless.

      https://topwar.ru/152577-posejdon-bespoleznoe-sverhoruzhie-atomnyj-dron-ne-tak-uzh-i-polezen-dlja-strany.html
      1. +4
        24 January 2019 20: 20
        Well, things, before they hoped for Caliber, now the Poseidons "appeared". Well, since such a steep reinforcement appeared, then we certainly are knee-deep in the sea and nothing is scary.
  20. BAI
    0
    24 January 2019 09: 06
    In various articles, the author contradicts himself.
    If
    Conclusion: the Russian fleet is able to act in the World Ocean only in peacetime, while in the war all those communications that it uses to enter the World Ocean pass through narrowness, which are either now completely controlled by the enemy (and to increase control over which the enemy has simply fantastic powers, both in quantity and quality), or they can easily be brought under control.

    - i.e. a fleet in wartime is useless. So why spend money on it - the author lamented the lack of funding for the fleet in previous articles.
    1. +5
      24 January 2019 09: 44
      In wartime, in confrontation with everything, NATO may be useless, but in the so-called "peacetime" it is very much even needed, because it is capable of solving many tasks of this very "peacetime".
    2. +6
      24 January 2019 11: 02
      No, the fleet is not useless. But he must meet the threats.
  21. -3
    24 January 2019 09: 16
    China would have such problems, we absolutely do not care where our ships can go there, because 99% of hostilities will be on land and in the air, but what will the slanting "brothers forever" do if they are blocked by a single Strait of Malak. They will simply lose their fuel supply and trade.
    1. 0
      24 January 2019 20: 23
      You are right, in 99% we will be taken on land, on our land.
    2. -1
      25 January 2019 18: 59
      Do not lose. The power of Siberia as be :)
  22. +3
    24 January 2019 09: 34
    Those who are "at odds" with geography or served in officer positions in the Navy will not find anything new in this article and can safely end its reading at this moment

    laughing Well then, yeah, finish !!!!! Humor. he is always interesting!
    we have one air base for the entire region with more or less significant infrastructure - Anadyr, and another concrete runway in the village of Provideniya

    Alexander, in this case, you need to indicate how many airbases the enemy has in this area! Well, to be honest to the end!
    Almost unsolvable task.

    From what? Anadyr, as a military base, was built by Comrade Stalin. We all know that Comrade Stalin was not at all, so Joseph Vissarionovich invented the city of Pevek, as an alternative to the Pacific North, to supply military bases in Anadyr! Recently, news about the revival of the military component of Anadyr has often flashed!
    One way or another, it’s worth noting that the Northern Fleet is located on a geographically isolated theater of operations, from which there are only a few exits, from which you can really use only two, and only after winning a fierce battle with many times superior enemy forces

    Why would the Northern Fleet go out and participate in a fierce battle ???
    Oh, Alexander, about BS RSCN, about Shevchenko's campaigns, about BS Shchuk-B ..... you can comment on your article forever !!!
    1. +4
      24 January 2019 10: 07
      Your previous article ran briefly, there was no time to answer, let me comment now in the light of your work today!
      As an example of a "little bit" war, you cited the American exercises Feltex-82. As usual, Alexander, you have snatched a piece of the events that took place in 1981, 1982! So what exactly was Feltex-82? These exercises were an attempt to regain their greatness in the eyes of the world community after the Soviet exercises Zapad-81 and Shield-82. We must pay tribute to the Americans, the attempt was a success! Why was this attempt successful? And because the intelligence of the Pacific Fleet, according to the already established tradition, successfully missed the deployment of the Enterprise and Midway, not paying attention to the heap of information directly indicating the movement of the AUS to the shores of Kamchatka!
      But I propose to consider another "war a little bit", NATO exercises Able Archer-83! These exercises are related to the Cuban missile crisis! The General Staff of the USSR Ministry of Defense took preparations for the exercise for aggression, vacations, shooting practice, flights were canceled in the Groups of Forces, shooting exercises, flights, the dispersal of troops began, the supply of ammunition, including nuclear, to the Air Force, Navy and ground forces began.
      The secretary of the British cabinet, Robert Armstrong (according to some reports, from the filing of the Soviet intelligence agent Oleg Gordievsky, who had been turned over by the Americans at that time) warned Margaret Thatcher that the Russians seemed to be serious. Unlike the usual large-scale exercises, this time they carried out all troop movements only on the western theater of operations opposite the areas where the Able Archer passed. In addition, the Soviets before that tried not to combine public holidays with maneuvers, but this time they began to deploy exactly November 7. Thatcher sent a signal to Washington: Russians may confuse deployment maneuvers for a strike, it's time to stop.

      I brought this to the conclusion, Alexander, that war is not a sandbox game! There can be no "a little bit of war" between world leaders, so in order to save yours in time, I will advise you ..... do not write articles in a state of attack on the comments of your readers!
      hi
      1. -1
        24 January 2019 23: 21
        Able Archer ...


        I believe that the Russians will build a fleet. But you can never learn English. laughing laughing
        1. +1
          25 January 2019 06: 53
          Quote: Keyser Soze
          English you never learn.

          what Do I need him? My dad knows only the hyundai hoch in German, but he reached Berlin without an interpreter! wink
    2. +4
      24 January 2019 11: 08
      From what? Anadyr, as a military base, was built by Comrade Stalin. We all know that Comrade Stalin was not at all, so Joseph Vissarionovich invented the city of Pevek, as an alternative to the Pacific North, to supply military bases in Anadyr! Recently, news about the revival of the military component of Anadyr has often flashed!


      I remember Anadyr "in its prime" - every 30-40 minutes a pair of Su-15 rose into the air, and so on for years.
      Plus Gudym.

      But thinking sensibly, all this was carried out at the expense of times by very small forces. Anadyr etc. impossible to protect - they are too pushed to the enemy.

      Regarding how many air bases have the enemy, I can count, if you insist, but when you strike them with the first strike (and you should not consider another option), this is not so significant. And more of them anyway.

      Oh, Alexander, about BS RSCN, about Shevchenko's campaigns, about BS Shchuk-B ..... you can comment on your article forever !!!


      Those who served with Shevchenko in those years on his campaigns have a somewhat specific opinion. Take an interest. The same Atrina, in fact, doesn’t pull on success, lest our propaganda sing.

      Regarding combat services ... K-500 with pofa will go as an example?
      1. +1
        24 January 2019 12: 29
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Regarding how many enemy airbases I can count

        Do not bother, there are none!
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        when it strikes first (and it’s not worth considering another option), this is not so significant

        laughing Moreover, the predominance of the US fleet over ours is not so significant!
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Those who served with Shevchenko in those years had a somewhat specific opinion about his campaigns.

        Not everyone! People are different!
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        The same Atrina in fact does not pull on success

        Besides Atrina, are there no thoughts? Mac Clour for example!
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        K-500 from the Pacific Fleet will go as an example?

        laughing In addition to K-500, we do not know others? K-469 for example! The same Pacific Fleet.
      2. +6
        24 January 2019 12: 44
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Regarding how many enemy airbases I have, I can calculate if you insist
        Fairbanks and Anchorage are both more than 1500 km from Anadyr. There was also Shemya, but the service there was a degraded version of the "city of flying dogs", and the base was closed a long time ago.
        1. +5
          24 January 2019 12: 53
          Quote: Alex_59
          Fairbanks and Anchorage

          Here I am about it!
          Welcome Alex! hi
        2. +2
          24 January 2019 13: 09
          1500 km is two hours of flying with a weapon and on the dialup. And tankers are not needed.
          Plus, we consider civilian airports, which can also be used. What about us?
          1. +2
            24 January 2019 13: 30
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            1500 km is two hours of flying with a weapon and on the dialup. And tankers are not needed.
            This is if only with air-to-air charging. You can't fly like that with charging against the ground.
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            What about us?
            Well, if such a situation that civilians are taken into account, then here is what we have:
            Coal, Beringovsky, Egvikenot, Provideniya, Pakhachi, Tilichiki, Ossora, Keys, Elizovo, Tigil, Ayanka well, etc. Half of them, of course, are not paved, but all have a runway length and width capable of producing combat aircraft, from the Su-27 to the Il-76. In Alaska, there are also enough such airfields, and there are even more airfields with small unpaved runways (200-300 meters) to which numerous American Cessna-"Fattair" fly (google Fat tire Cessna - cool airplanes, I dream about this, for our conditions just fire !) - but the F-16 will never land there and never take off.
            1. +2
              24 January 2019 14: 20
              This is if only with air-to-air charging. You can't fly like that with charging against the ground.


              F-16 is flying. This is just a combat radius with tanks and a pair of JDAM. Or Strike Eagle with PTB and JASSM. Or B-1 B as you like.

              Coal, Beringovsky


              Do you know how many times I flew with Beringovsky? laughing

              It is ridiculous to mention such airfields. There kakby it softer to put it ...

              This is a runway on the seashore. Such "airfields" are, what are not. In fact, there is not even a parking area for aircraft, two ILs will fit, if without fanaticism, if you build "Sukhoi" on it, then they can be shot from a motor boat from a machine gun. In short, it's funny, Beringovsky & Co. Beringovsky especially.

              Coal and Providence. To the south - the airports of Kamchatka and Yelizovo there. But this is already far away, shock tasks from there are easily performed, the air defense system does not. And everything else is irrelevant.
              1. +2
                24 January 2019 14: 42
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                It is ridiculous to mention such airfields.
                Well so American in Alaska are the same. How they look - I imagine, although I admit - I did not fly from them. I think that it’s in vain that you — such runways were laid with metal plates near Murmansk — and flew. This is not an air base.
                F-16 is flying. This is just the combat radius with tanks and a pair of JDAM.
                Nobody flies to the limit of the radius. In those places - even more so. A small headwind on the way back and engine stop for 10 km from its airfield.
                1. +2
                  24 January 2019 18: 34
                  Well, generally speaking, for naval aviation, a prick blow is the norm.

                  On the other hand, there is JASSM. There are B-1B.

                  Well, yes, that's why I'm sure that the 75-th regiment will be in Anadyr more likely than warheads of cruise missiles. This makes more sense, and it is cheaper, and even easier to make. Surprisingly.
          2. +2
            24 January 2019 13: 58
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            What about us?

            And we have a plus for Anadyr and Holding, Gulf of Lawrence and Gulf of Cross (well, if you add civilians), by the way, your friends also have 4 civilian sites there.
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            1500 km is two hours of flight with weapons and on the sound

            laughing Well, yes, as usual ..... the Americans and 1500 do not have a hook, but the Russian Vanka Yelizovo and Sokol cannot be used !!!
            1. 0
              24 January 2019 14: 23
              ek. you, Serenka, fell into a fool, waved his dagger. Do not cut the ear, on the reverse movement! hello to you! hi
              1. +1
                24 January 2019 14: 29
                laughing Saber dance is our everything !!!
                And you do not get sick hi
            2. +2
              24 January 2019 14: 50
              Elizovo is just far away from the Bering Strait, and the dispute will remind you of how the course of the VD will be ensured there.

              So here, with Elizovo, it is quite possible to fly to the bombing. But to ensure the tasks of air defense over the same Anadyr - no. Long away. And now think what the conditions of the Amer are diametrically different from ours.
  23. -2
    24 January 2019 09: 38
    After reading the mustache, I felt an indescribable fear and surprise at the fact that the striped flag still does not develop over the Kremlin.
    1. +7
      24 January 2019 10: 38
      striped it is not necessary
    2. +7
      24 January 2019 10: 44
      Quote: Evil Echo
      After reading the mustache, I felt an indescribable fear and surprise at the fact that the striped flag still does not develop over the Kremlin.

      it is enough for them that the law on the Central Bank and the Constitution are written under their dictation.
  24. +1
    24 January 2019 09: 54
    The article is a large, detailed, detailed .... lumpy.
    The discussion is active.
    The only question is - what else, someone else believes that in the modern world a military conflict between countries possessing nuclear weapons can be waged and end without its use ??? Very naive.
    Everything will end with a big bum! and no closed straits will interfere with anything, or perhaps accelerate the use of nuclear weapons.
  25. +6
    24 January 2019 10: 05
    A few corrections. (I read to the end)))).
    1. The idea of ​​hiding strategists in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk was an episode. It was feasible in the presence of anti-submarine forces. In short, "You still need to run to the trench." The ideology was - a set of intelligence signs, the strengthening of the enemy, the international situation - there is time to prepare and deploy forces. As an example, the preparation of the coalition forces (Iraq), the Falklands, Yugoslavia .... It is not a fact that it will be the same.
    2.The USSR itself tried to dictate the strategy. There were 4 submarine divisions, three anti-submarine aviation regiments, two MRA divisions, support forces-182 br, 173,114. Now there is no naval aviation, and there are no MiG-31s ​​with "Daggers" either, this is not serious. However, I already wrote about this. In passing.
    3. "Poseidon" which also does not exist, and whether it will be similar.
    4. The landing operations on Shamor and Halaktyrka are also doubtful. Of course, the United States has every opportunity. Personally, I, NOW, do not see the point.
    5. All issues will now be resolved by the economy and sanction pressure.
    6. A disruptive strike by high-precision means is unlikely.
    7. All hopes of a breakthrough and a miracle weapon are just funny. New-old move exit from the missile defense and the Russian Railways. Something will have to be answered. Something to unfold, strengthen. Money again. And this is money in the sand. When ambitions are not confirmed by economics and science. It's a question of time.
    .
    1. +3
      24 January 2019 11: 21
      1. Not the fact that there will be, but for now this is plan A. I’m aware of plan B a little, but I’ll keep silent, I hope you will understand why.
      2. Tried, yes. But he lost. It is impossible to do this "head-on" anymore, we will not stand the second collapse, other schemes are needed.
      3. You yourself are not funny?
      4. The meaning is different from the possibilities that may appear in a day. That is the problem. I never write anything about meanings and intentions, I am only concerned about opportunities, especially ours.
      5. As a person engaged in international trade, as a businessman and a practical economist, I will tell you that the economy can be improved in ten years, and regardless of oil prices and sanctions, and without investment, only through organizational methods. The question is exclusively in frames. And that's all. Two hundred-three hundred people who understand what needs to be done even ten years of time, after which the President of the United States can face it when meeting him. Do not hesitate and without consequences.
      Switzerland will not be here, but the question of money will be closed, including on ships and submarines. And it will be a stable system.
      6. A disarming strike can only be a nuclear attack, and, apparently, a sabotage nuclear attack in the first place, and only then a nuclear missile attack. Means have amers. But this is a separate issue.
      7. And actually why? Well, the Americans left the INF Treaty. We are making ONE copy of the land "Caliber". We show that TV. We are waiting for political decisions. If the Americans start producing missiles, we are replacing the TPK with the existing Iskander launchers. Plus ALCM, including the tactical X-50, which is being finished now (but it should be done anyway). All. It's not that expensive.
      It is even good that there is no money, we will do less stupid things.
      1. +1
        24 January 2019 11: 39
        3. You yourself are not funny?
        It’s ridiculous. We’ve been laughing on the forums for half a year now.
        Poseidon in the composition of forces in the calculations of the OU Navy? Boats built its carriers?
        Although, once the stuffing began on the reaction of public opinion, money was distributed to whom how much. Then "Oh" ... It's all Serdyukov and Vasilyeva. And the result is like Bartini, Lozino-Lozinsky, ekranoplanes and Buran.
        About going out into the ocean, you can remember about the Rozhenstvensky’s squadron, we’ll pile them!
        Or Aport-Atrina, which failed one time.
        1. +3
          24 January 2019 11: 43
          Although, once started throwing in on the reaction of public opinion, money is distributed to someone as much.


          This adventure began in the USSR, at the same time the money began to cut on it.

          Or Aport-Atrina, which failed one time.


          Probably worth Aport limit on this list.
      2. 0
        26 January 2019 19: 03
        Two hundred and three hundred people who understand what needs to be done and ten years of time, after which the President of the United States will be able to spit when meeting in person. Do not be shy and without consequences.

        In the vast majority of cases, I agree with the problems raised by the respected author and the proposed solutions. Oddly enough)) Thank you very much !!
        But about "300 Spartans" ..... Well, very strong optimism, IMHO, of course))) How about ten years. But if over the years it is still possible ... to see, then the figure "300", IMHO, you need to raise it by a couple of orders of magnitude, but where can you get that refrigerator from which you can remove and, after defrosting, put the knights into action without fear and reproach?
        1. +1
          26 January 2019 22: 11
          Spartans 300 just enough for senior positions in the Ministry of Finance, Ministry of Economy, Tax Inspectorate, Customs and the Central Bank.
          Not many positions need to be closed.

          After all, we have specialists, we need to give them a goal, and literally move away from the helm several hundred liberal fanatics from the HSE. Then just plow and that's it.

          Maybe I'll write some little article on this issue.
          1. 0
            26 January 2019 22: 57
            But write))) But about three hundred people ..... Sorry, but "it will not be enough." The activities of any real bosses are very much even leveled "on the ground". And there the situation is the same awful, the same, sorry, "professionals" who, apart from their own pocket, do not care much. Who will change them? And what to do with the replaced ones? And will they just watch how they are "changed"?
  26. +1
    24 January 2019 10: 11
    But what if, instead of trade in Shikotan and Habomai, an agreement with the Japanese is radical?
    For example, an option: they give us Kyushu, Honshu and Hokkaido, and we give them the Kaliningrad region and Vyborg with Pechenga.
    Then at least the Pacific Fleet will have free hands. And also revenge-seekers in Germany and Finland will cease to bark.
  27. -10
    24 January 2019 10: 21
    On the fig, our fleet to go to the oceans in wartime?

    It is enough in peacetime to bring several hundred Poseidons into the ocean (with the help of nuclear submarines and on their own) and you can sleep peacefully - the Atlantic and Pacific blockade of the Russian Navy with the beginning of the TMV will not affect the flushing of the vast majority of the mobilization reserve, infrastructure and naval bases of NATO countries, Japan and South Korea during the first thirty minutes of hostilities.

    And the rhetorical question - the fig then the naval forces of NATO, Japan and South Korea in wartime to block something somewhere? bully
    1. +11
      24 January 2019 11: 09
      It is enough to bring several hundred Poseidons into the ocean in peacetime


      The main thing here - do not miss taking pills.
      1. -7
        24 January 2019 11: 43
        Do you already somehow decide on your orientation - journalist, medic or naval commander laughing
        1. +2
          24 January 2019 11: 53
          I like James Bond - I can do everything a little bit.
          1. 0
            24 January 2019 11: 56
            No need to slander James - he positioned himself as a pro in intelligence laughing
            1. +4
              24 January 2019 12: 06
              I recruited people and conducted interrogations.

              In general, I think a book to write, according to his biography. A good action would be. Exciting.
              1. +1
                25 January 2019 02: 34
                [quote = timokhin-aa] I recruited people and conducted interrogations. belay

                [quote = timokhin-aa] In general, I think I should write a book based on my biography. A good action would be. Exciting. [/ Quote] recourse
                Who before FSB or emergency psychiatric? wassat
              2. 0
                25 January 2019 12: 46
                You already have one German baron ahead.
          2. +3
            24 January 2019 16: 43
            Mr. John Lancaster Peck. smile
  28. +5
    24 January 2019 10: 42
    I understand why the Soviet Navy was breaking through the Faroe-Icelandic border into the Atlantic. This was necessary because the USSR had submarines in commodity quantities, and the enemy, according to the likely scenario of the war, should have convoys from the USA to Europe in commodity quantities. These convoys seriously influenced the strategic situation, so their destruction was an important task. The puzzle was developing. Why should our Navy break today? There are no plans for a war with Europe according to the patterns of the era of the USSR, not the fact that there will be convoys, and the fact that we do not have submarines in an amount capable of affecting something. The transfer of American troops to Europe may take place in the pre-war period for a couple of years - and no one will be able to interrupt this transfer in peacetime. Having set up the necessary grouping in advance, the enemy will be able to easily neutralize the threat of our NEs; there is no question of a roll to the English Channel. Therefore, we must build on real opportunities in the North - what tasks can be set? For what? How will this affect the outcome of a possible war as a whole? Just breaking into the Atlantic - why do we need submariners-kamikaze?
    1. +4
      24 January 2019 12: 10
      The USSR, too, would not have taken out. Now a breakthrough into the Atlantic has sharply muted the meaning, but the capture of the Icelandic Faro in some cases may be relevant, as well as, for example, the airborne troops on Tula and Alert. So, theoretically ...
      1. +3
        24 January 2019 12: 56
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        the capture of the Faroe of the Icelandic border in some cases may be relevant

        wassat What for?
        1. +4
          24 January 2019 13: 10
          Depending on the setting, Sergey)))

          Why are you fantasizing about capturing Svalbard? And the General Staff of the USSR for the Faroe Islands already allocated a whole division of the Airborne Forces
          1. +1
            24 January 2019 14: 10
            My friend, Spitsbergen in a compartment with Berlevog runway closes the entrance to the Barents Sea, what will block the Faroe Islands? Moreover, logistics to the islands will be at risk!
            1. 0
              24 January 2019 18: 36
              what will block the Faroe Islands?


              How is that? Entrance to Norwegian! laughing

              We must think big!

              And I was not joking about the Soviet era, they were going to throw out the Faroe’s division into the West-77 KSHU, and different BRAVs with their equipment were already in the second tier. Then the planes ...
              1. +4
                24 January 2019 20: 12
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                at KShU Zapad-77 they’d just about to throw out the Faroe’s division,

                Actually, as a rule, everything at KSHU is planned on paper, and without involving troops. And what is most interesting, it is forbidden to use real operational plans as the basis for KSHU. So you were simply misled, and you began to duplicate such nonsense.
                1. +1
                  25 January 2019 08: 57
                  You wouldn't write such nonsense. Google what the "West" doctrine is.
                  1. +1
                    25 January 2019 09: 53
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    Google what the "West" doctrine is.

                    I don’t have to google anything - I myself participated in many KSUs, so I know what I'm saying. And you just spread other people's fabrications, which puts an end to you for any military specialist.
          2. +2
            24 January 2019 20: 08
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Why are you fantasizing about capturing Svalbard? And the General Staff of the USSR for the Faroe Islands already allocated a whole division of the Airborne Forces

            Do not fantasize - in Soviet times, the European theater was the main one, and it was for him that it was planned to strengthen at the expense of the internal border districts. What other takeover of the Spitsbergen or Faroe Islands division by the Airborne Division, if you take into account the number of inhabitants living there and the almost complete absence of NATO forces?
      2. +3
        24 January 2019 14: 07
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        The USSR would not have taken it either.
        Here it is necessary to answer like Mikhalkov's about the words of the USSR anthem. "junk, not junk - and you will sing while standing." It's about the same here. I would have taken it out, I would not have taken it out, but the Americans would have walked along the wall. laughing The USSR fleet had the opportunity to make a serious rustle in the Atlantic. Probably he would have been calmed down over time, all or almost all boats would have been drowned, but the task was to arrange a nix for a month, and during this time other people in another place had to "die, but do" and wash the tracks of their T-80s in the waters of La -mancha.

        Quote: timokhin-aa
        but the capture of the Faroe of the Icelandic border in some cases may be relevant
        I even believe that we can capture. Even by the forces that are available today. But I weakly believe that we will hold. With the existing NATO infrastructure in Europe, our paratroopers will be hunting gulls with arrows and bows in a month in Iceland. And after two Americans will return all these islands to themselves back without a fight.
        1. +2
          24 January 2019 18: 40
          Probably he would have calmed down over time, would have drowned all or almost all of the boats, but the task was to arrange for a month

          Americans believed that the USSR abandoned this idea at the end of the 70's, and would use nuclear submarines to fight warships.

          Not sure about the 2.0 Atlantic Battle. Well and most importantly - after a hypothetical breakthrough there, the Faroe Islands would become OUR zone, it was planned to drop off the Airborne Division for capture there. And Norway would be the rear.

          Now everything is radically different on the one hand, but Norway is still possible ... of that. And from there and the Faroe Islands.

          So, by the way.
          1. +1
            24 January 2019 21: 20
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            and will use submarines to combat warships.

            Well yes. First, you need to crush the convoy forces into the AUG vinaigrette, and then start drowning the convoys, and in the second stage you can also introduce diesel-electric submarines so that it burns brighter.
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Well and most importantly - after a hypothetical breakthrough there, the Faroe Islands would become OUR zone, it was planned to drop off the Airborne Division for capture there.
            I wonder which of the divisions? I do not believe in the clinical insanity (as well as in the genius) of the General Staff, so let's immediately abandon the idea that it could be 104th, 103rd, 98th. What's left? Nobody will give 106th - it is in the general direction. 7th or 76th should I jump to Iceland? We look at the map. Both can - right through, over Denmark, Norway and Sweden. Banzai attack of some kind. I think the Danes, having seen a couple of Il-76 regiments in the sky early in the morning, would have immediately left NATO, and perhaps from planet Earth - it is not worth living on the same planet with the people sending two Il-76 regiments into such a brazen attack. In general, I think in the "green" of the USSR Ministry of Defense, no one would give the admirals an airborne division for such entertainment even in a nightmare. And rightly so, I think.
            1. +1
              25 January 2019 07: 02
              Quote: Alex_59
              I think the Danes had seen a couple of IL-76 regiments immediately in the sky above themselves, would immediately leave NATO, and possibly from planet Earth - with a people sending two IL-76 regiments in such an impudent attack, it’s not worth living on one planet.

              laughing Well, my Friday has begun!
              Thanks Alexey! good drinks
            2. 0
              25 January 2019 08: 59
              Both can - ahead, over Denmark, Norway and Sweden.


              Over Norway. The release did not take place at the beginning of the counterattack, but as its development, with Norway everything had already been decided by then.

              In general, in the internet somewhere it was. Must see.
  29. +3
    24 January 2019 10: 56
    Remains exit through the Kuril Straits.


    There is still an exit through the Kuril Straits.
    But Japan has already arrogantly demanded to transfer the Kuril Islands, for a start, they are so far limited to two islands. But as they say it is just for starters.
    Everyone understands that Japan does not require an island for itself, but for the states.
    As the Japan states of the island get, they’ll generally shut up the Pacific Fleet, cut off from going to the ocean.
    The elite of the Russian Federation behaves ambiguously, but it seems that they still intend to give up the islands, but so far they are holding back due to the negative reaction of the country's population and the electorate. The authorities are trying to resolve the issue positively for the Japanese states by the method "if not by washing, then by rolling."
    1. -1
      24 January 2019 11: 48
      Quote: Ivan Tartugay
      There is still an exit through the Kuril Straits.

      There are dofig exits and more))) American boats and through the First Kuril Chastali (once)))). And there is no particular need to go there. Three strategists in Vilyuchinsk. And do not go anywhere. They catch up with catch-ups, which means they know that it’s useless to go offline, they will be tracked. And they sit in Rybachy in readiness for shooting from the pier. Why then are they needed so good?
      1. -1
        24 January 2019 20: 55
        You will definitely not be asked why they are.
  30. The comment was deleted.
  31. -2
    24 January 2019 12: 08
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    I recruited people and conducted interrogations

    Specialist? bully
    1. +4
      24 January 2019 12: 14
      Not. Mercenary in the service of capital. In the past.
      1. -3
        24 January 2019 13: 19
        Then you have a professional deformation of thinking - it is strongly recommended that you familiarize yourself with the basic concepts in this area:

        Report on the meeting with Putin in November 2015, slide 3, appointment of "Status-6": "Defeating important objects of the enemy's economy and causing unacceptable damage to the country's territory by creating zones of extensive radioactive contamination that are unsuitable for military, economic and economic and other activities for a long time "

        Photo of "Poseidon" (formerly "Status-6")


        Radioactive Consequences of 100-Mtn Thermonuclear Explosion at the Hudson River Estuary


        Poseidon device
        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%83%D1%81-6
        1. +5
          24 January 2019 14: 22
          In a week another person’s article will come out, where all this gon will be described from an engineering point of view.
          I will limit myself to the fact that the West already has an antidote against this thing.
          It would be better to have done rockets with this money, where it would be more confusing.
          1. -2
            24 January 2019 14: 30
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            another person’s article will be published, where all this drive from an engineering point of view will be described

            Those. you are not an engineer - then why are you discussing a topic in which you don’t cut from a word at all?
            And how do you know that the "other person" is professionally versed in this topic?
            1. +2
              24 January 2019 14: 53
              Understands))))

              And I have a critic from the standpoint of common sense. And I have enough of it.
          2. +1
            24 January 2019 21: 00
            Yes, they don’t have any nicerta, except for your much-praised MU 90 e-torpedo with an interception depth of up to 1000 meters.
            1. +1
              25 January 2019 08: 59
              Are you not enough?
        2. -2
          24 January 2019 14: 22
          Illustration for the geographical openness of the oceans - crater, shock wave and primary radioactive cloud from the 100-Mtn explosion in New York Bay

          1. +5
            24 January 2019 14: 53
            How is this diametrically different from the impact of an SLBM with an FSM?
            1. 0
              24 January 2019 15: 18
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              How is this diametrically different from the impact of an SLBM with an FSM?

              In theory, by the fact that it does not fall under the limitations of existing agreements on strategic nuclear forces.
              Stamp as much as you like. As, in principle, RTOs with "Caliber" - nothing more than bypassing the INF Treaty (was).
              Well, this is by the way, so I am skeptical about these "Poseidons".
              1. +1
                24 January 2019 18: 41
                We do not even reach the quantities permitted by the contracts.
                1. +2
                  24 January 2019 21: 04
                  400 sea and submarine-based ICBMs and 1500 warheads and 600 strategic air-based cruise missiles, and another 2000 tactical charges - what are we missing?
                  1. 0
                    25 January 2019 09: 00
                    We’re not getting through the heads of ICBMs
                    1. +1
                      25 January 2019 13: 57
                      Nothing with the exit from the INF Treaty - by medium-range warheads, we’ll get it, they will fly to European bases — and all the ICBM warheads to the United States and their bases in the Pacific Ocean.
  32. -1
    24 January 2019 12: 10
    Author:
    Alexander Timokhin
    The Northern Fleet is based in the Arctic Ocean. In the Arctic. In peacetime, ships and submarines of the Northern Fleet enter the oceans unhindered, and perform tasks at any point.

    And in the military? We look at the map.

    It is patrolling our submarines in peacetime that is the main task of the Russian Navy, because this guarantees a retaliatory strike against the enemy in any situation.
    And since the war with our main adversary will be fleeting (if it comes to it, of course), then only those who can’t imagine the real scenario of the future nuclear missile war in Russia can seriously consider the operation of the Navy in WAR.
    So the author’s fears are irrelevant - the fleet will fulfill only a part of the overall plan, and its mission to strike from the closest position near the territory of the United States.
    1. +2
      24 January 2019 12: 15
      You do not immediately speak out for all the military-political leadership of the Russian Federation and the United States.
      1. -1
        24 January 2019 12: 22
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        You do not immediately speak out for all the military-political leadership of the Russian Federation and the United States.

        I do not speak out for them, but express the point of view of a military specialist who knows very well what the Soviet Navy was intended for and what tasks the Russian fleet faces in connection with its small number in comparison with the Soviet one.
        However, for this you do not even need to be a great specialist - just look at the program for the construction and modernization of submarines with nuclear explosives and similar programs for the surface fleet, in terms of aircraft carriers, for example, to understand what the future of the underwater component is.
        1. +3
          24 January 2019 14: 25
          So the author’s fears are irrelevant - the fleet will fulfill only a part of the overall plan, and its mission to strike from the closest position near the territory of the United States.


          That's why they tried to deploy SSBNs in the "nearest position" in the 80s. Remind me how it ended?
          1. -2
            24 January 2019 19: 46
            Quote: timokhin-aa

            That's why they tried to deploy SSBNs in the "nearest position" in the 80s.

            Even now they can use their ammunition "from the wall". What is the problem?
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Remind me how it ended?

            And what?
            Just do not bind to the collapse of the USSR-better in the military aspect, submit your thoughts.
            1. +2
              24 January 2019 20: 07
              From the wall - half measure, the boat in this position loses stealth and is easily destroyed at the first strike of the enemy. No better than that.
              The main thing in the submarine is stealth.

              And what?
              Just do not bind to the collapse of the USSR-better in the military aspect, submit your thoughts.


              https://topwar.ru/29604-rpksn-k-258-proekta-667au-bs-3-mart-may-1985-goda.html

              Since then they have driven us into the "bastions", in which, by the way, their submarines are constantly climbing with impunity.
              80% of the time at the SSBN's tail hangs their submarines.

              Such are the considerations.
              1. 0
                24 January 2019 20: 31
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                From the wall - half measure, the boat in this position loses stealth and is easily destroyed at the first strike of the enemy.

                Do not invent it - it’s impossible to hide the enemy’s preparation for a massive nuclear strike, for this there is a strategic intelligence link. So there’s enough time for a retaliatory strike. Well, after it our submarines are unlikely to interest anyone - they will no longer be real goals.
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                80% of the time at the SSBN's tail hangs their submarines.

                And what does it give if the ship commander receives an order and releases the entire ammunition in a few minutes?
                1. +1
                  25 January 2019 09: 02
                  Do not invent it - it’s impossible to hide the enemy’s preparation for a massive nuclear strike, for this there is a strategic intelligence link.


                  Not impossible, but difficult. Do not confuse.

                  And what does it give if the ship commander receives an order and releases the entire ammunition in a few minutes?


                  He won’t let out everything, he’ll catch the torpedo faster, because they will let it go as soon as they listen to the sound of opening the covers of the launch shafts, no one will even ask for permission to fire.
                  1. 0
                    25 January 2019 09: 59
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    Not impossible, but difficult. Do not confuse.

                    I don’t confuse anything, but I just know how all this really happens.

                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    He won’t let out everything, he’ll catch the torpedo faster, because they will let it go as soon as they listen to the sound of opening the covers of the launch shafts, no one will even ask for permission to fire.

                    And if you open the lid to conduct a training launch or to put out the fire in the launch shaft? Or will the equipment make a wrong conclusion and a false positive will occur?
                    You do not seem to understand that entrusting the submarine commander with the decision to start a nuclear war will not even occur to the Americans. However, you can continue to fantasize in this direction, but believe me, your naivety is simply surprising.
                    1. +2
                      25 January 2019 13: 46
                      In the course of the outbreak of hostilities, they will shoot simply at the "contact", and even at the opened covers, even more so. Both mines and torpedo tubes, no difference. I brought it to you as an example as an unmasking sign by which the SSNS can detect a target, if, for example, it was lost.
                      1. 0
                        25 January 2019 17: 43
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        In the course of the outbreak of hostilities, they will shoot simply at the "contact",

                        How does the commander of an American boat know that hostilities have begun if the Russian submarine launches and it takes some time for the Americans to understand that it was launched against them and make an appropriate decision, and only then give the command to the commander of their submarine.
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        I brought it to you as an example of a unmasking sign,

                        The evacuation of the US Congress and the presidential administration is an even more unmasking sign for us, so do not escalate the situation where you do not understand anything.
            2. +1
              24 January 2019 21: 08
              "From the wall to bang" - well, what nonsense, submarines are needed for stealth, and at the wall they are like three poplars on ivy. "At the wall" just they will not be allowed to bang on time. They won't even have time to utter a word.
              1. +1
                24 January 2019 21: 15
                Quote: Fan-Fan

                "Bang from the wall" - well, what nonsense, submarines are needed for stealth,

                Secretly they patrol the oceans. But not all, because part is standing at the walls or getting ready to go on duty, and some are already with ammunition.
                In general, the example concerned mainly operational capabilities, and not the actual use of their weapons. But the enemy must know that he will get something from those who have not yet managed to go on patrol.
                Quote: Fan-Fan
                "At the wall" just they will not be allowed to bang on time. They won't even have time to utter a word.

                How do you know what condition they will be when the signal comes from the supreme? And how do you know how long they reveal the enemy’s preparations for a nuclear attack?
      2. +2
        24 January 2019 12: 35
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        You do not immediately speak out for all the military-political leadership of the Russian Federation and the United States.

        laughing Those. what can you, others no-no ???
        1. +2
          24 January 2019 13: 11
          Do I really speak out?
        2. +7
          24 January 2019 13: 44
          Namesake hi The author has uploaded the article and now defends his opinion in all available ways. Commendable! Such energy, but on the right track. good I am a layman in naval affairs, so I will refrain from stupid words. I just want to morally support the naval colleagues in the military.

          1. +1
            24 January 2019 13: 48
            hi Have a nice one you too!
            Quote: Leopold
            defends his opinion in all available ways

            It’s like being interrogated, your every word aggravates your position wink
            1. +5
              24 January 2019 13: 54
              In-in! I will be silent, I will be more whole. lol
  33. -9
    24 January 2019 12: 46
    Who will block it? Americans with their worthless pile of scrap metal? Before you block, you still need to be able to approach. In the western direction, yes, it’s bad with us, but in the eastern direction it’s not so simple. And why did you create a Poseidon? What a blockade. They will chase after our ghosts for months. If the avant-garde is launched around Washington? Who has time to escape. There will be no authorities who will rule. Simple people need war. Now is the 21st century. And the strategy described in the article of the 20th century.
    1. +3
      24 January 2019 13: 11
      And for what, created Poseidon?


      To cut the budget.
    2. +3
      25 January 2019 23: 41
      I am on the forum recently, but I already understood that your words here need to be supported by evidence. Cartoons from the guarantor of the Constitution do not count. The guarantor, to put it mildly, does not always tell the truth. Of all the cartoons, only one "dagger" has been confirmed so far.
      1. -1
        26 January 2019 10: 57
        Quote: Beregovyhok_1
        Cartoons from the guarantor of the Constitution do not count. The guarantor, to put it mildly, does not always tell the truth. Of all the cartoons, only one "dagger" has been confirmed so far.

        In Soviet times, even cartoons were not shown, but this does not mean that in the USSR nothing new was adopted. So rejoice that you are allowed to learn something that you would never know in the USSR. By the way, even the appearance of military products allows military specialists to predict their performance characteristics by indirect indications. That is why only cartoons are shown to you.
  34. +2
    24 January 2019 12: 48
    "Stop the Earth! I want to get off ..." laughing
    I read the heading, looked at the map ... I thought that was enough))
    When we read the same authors about Amer. AUG is a terrifying Russian coast, it’s impossible to strike at it even with a loaf - there is no TSU but the OCEAN is BIG, but you see it is moving. On water!. With wake tracks, but there are a lot of them (they say), container ships of all sorts of nemeranno sail in the arctic fox ...
    When it comes to a miniature submarine going to a kilometer depth- already It turns out OCEAN MALENKY, there are no exits at all, it only eats entrances)))
    What to do? Of course to widen the straits)))) - this is no less "thought out" than ...
    1. -2
      24 January 2019 13: 12
      You can also not plump)))
      1. 0
        24 January 2019 19: 02
        You can also not plump)))

        Um, your "argument" is as "persuasive" as your "articles". You can also add that some Russians "drink" (Ukrainian, etc.) and we drink (50-100g before dinner)))
  35. +1
    24 January 2019 12: 56
    Wow, what an amazing fact!
  36. +1
    24 January 2019 13: 04
    yes the old problem of Russia.
    It seems to be the largest territory, but a lot of land is not inhabited (inefficient territory)
    It seems greatness, but it costs money (energy), for heat, the cost of transmission over long distances.
    Distance is the enemy of Russia at all times (roads / communications)
    Access to the oceans / non-freezing ports all the time.
    It is necessary to develop the economy according to its capabilities, and for some reason the authorities are spinning megalomania.
    2% ME is difficult to pull on a larger blanket.
    Now the heyday of other nations, you need to go through it with minimal losses. Focusing on yourself.
  37. -1
    24 January 2019 14: 32
    And why are Russian submarines floating almost everywhere, contrary to this review in an article?
    1. +1
      24 January 2019 14: 55
      Who told you such nonsense? To slip into the Atlantic on a submarine once a year, having burned five times during the breakthrough (five deaths in the war), is it "floating everywhere"?
      1. +3
        24 January 2019 21: 14
        In ward number 6, they know for sure that our submarines are swimming everywhere and not only swimming, and the Americans are laying nuclear explosives ashore.
  38. -1
    24 January 2019 14: 38
    In fact, these narrownesses are not only narrowness for us, but also for them ... And we, too, can use them in exactly the same measure, i.e. to block. You can block it with stupid mines, or you can block it with smart ones. And so our task is to catch up to that. We can cover the very closed water area of ​​the Arctic Ocean free of ice from Onyxes from the Bastions. Those. not a single NK can live there for a long time. Remain submarines. To fight them you need Ash.
    Well, finally. There is a way out, and this way out is depth. We need deep-sea submarines. And we really need submarine simulators, i.e. false goals to divert attention from a real submarine.
    1. +2
      24 January 2019 14: 58
      Well, we will not block the Faroese border, the Canadian straits will also have to fight very hard for the Bering Strait, the Kuriles can be closed, but it will be a mutual blockade - the enemy was not allowed, and the enemy did not let us out. Draw.
      To combat them need Ash.


      We still have to see how he is against Virginia. If you look at the torpedoes and SGPD, then alas, no way.

      There is a way out, and this way out is depth. Looking for deep submarines. And imitators of submarines are very necessary false targets for distracting attention from the real submarine.


      At the depth of acoustic visibility above.
      1. 0
        24 January 2019 20: 57
        > Well, we will not block the Faroe border, the Canadian straits too
        Well, why, now they’ll hammer on the INF Treaty, it will be possible to make RSD with a combat unit in the form of a mine (to get the RSD into the strait really now, this is not a ship (although in the USSR they also made rockets for ships, but they are in some kind of agreement did not fit)), some - even with special warheads. Ships are a piece of work, until all three times they have scoured - they will not climb in narrowness, and we will win this week, and there we’ll figure something out.
  39. 0
    24 January 2019 15: 13
    Quote: Antares
    yes the old problem of Russia.
    It seems to be the largest territory, but a lot of land is not inhabited (inefficient territory)
    It seems greatness, but it costs money (energy), for heat, the cost of transmission over long distances.
    Distance is the enemy of Russia at all times (roads / communications).

    The vastness of Russia - this is Russia. Otherwise unthinkable. And with this and in this one should live and develop.
  40. +3
    24 January 2019 15: 38
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    How is this diametrically different from the impact of an SLBM with an FSM?

    1. As already mentioned above, the Poseidons are not subject to the Strategic Nuclear Arms Limitation Treaty.

    2. There is no reception against scrap - any SOSYS and / or PLO system is destroyed by the first of a pair of Poseidons aimed at the same object.

    3. The power of warheads delivered to a target by one ICBM is an order of magnitude less than the power of a warhead of one Poseidon.

    4. The width of the territorial waters of the United States is 6 miles (11 km), so the submarine time of the Poseidon, located in advance at a position near the borders of the territory and moving in the near-surface layer at a speed of 55 knots (100 km / h), will be 6 minutes, i.e. e. less flight time for American MRBMs located near the borders of the Russian Federation.
    In other words, the Poseidons are our asymmetric response to the US withdrawal from the INF Treaty.

    5. The adoption by countries of NATO of similar weapons is meaningless - the main megacities, industrial facilities and military bases of Russia are historically located in the depths of our territory.
    1. +2
      24 January 2019 19: 11
      1. In terms of the number of nuclear weapons, we do not even reach our strategic offensive arms plan. It would be much easier to just add rockets.

      2. Bullshit, undermining thermonuclear munitions does not give such an effect, but the most important thing is that this Poseidon still needs to REACH Sosus somehow. A rocket - no need wink It will deliver both heat and light in minutes, bypassing SOSUS.

      3. Here are just a lot of them. There are ten on the Mace. They are weaker, but will cover more targets, including point ones. In addition, Mace, Yars, etc. there is a military sense - this is a weapon for waging war, and not a dumb doomsday machine. Missiles can be fought; Since the mid-80's, this project has eaten at least ten SSBNs with at least 160 missiles and approximately 1600 warheads of approximately 150 kT.
      ALREADY EATED. And he has never walked "under the reactor" yet, if anything, he is still not there.
      It was easier not to sign START.

      In other words, the Poseidons are our asymmetric response to the US withdrawal from the INF Treaty.


      It already gives medicine. Why do we need SUCH answer to withdrawing from the INF Treaty? What prevents "Caliber" from putting on a car chassis? What's stopping you from making a modification that can be retargeted in flight? This is somewhere around 0,0000 ...... 01% of the cost of Poseidon, and there is more sense at times and there is a real military application.

      4. With a short-lived reactor, yeah. When the big top began, even during the Soviet Union, it was planned in the TTZ to prescribe the life of the reactor in five days. Plus aircraft PLO, which with such a deployment will gobble up these Poseidons in a matter of hours.

      5. It is completely meaningless to us, only harm from it. For now, at least. If you harness the developers to make a compact long-lived nuclear power unit, then the project will be useful. But very expensive. Now it’s just drank dough.

      The main megacities, industrial facilities and military bases of Russia are historically located in the depths of our territory.


      Sevastopol, Novorossiysk, Sochi, Kaliningrad, St. Petersburg, Murmansk, Arkhangelsk, Norilsk, Magadan, Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky, Vladivostok, Nakhodka. Well, count how many people live there. And what proportion of GDP they give. Nornickel, for example.
      And how much will remain to live in the Black Sea basin and in the Far East, if these cities are destroyed with the population.
      Westerners do not make such weapons, not because they have nowhere to launch them, but because they are pointless from a military point of view. Absolutely.
      1. +1
        24 January 2019 21: 13
        Poseidon is needed to guarantee the destruction of the enemy’s territory in the event of a nuclear missile conflict - whoever attacks the first, dies the second - death will be thorough and there will be no rebirth and no missile defense and anti-aircraft defense will save from this - the main message and meaning of Poseidon.
        1. 0
          25 January 2019 09: 05
          No PLO from Poseidon will save. That is the problem. It was necessary to bet on missiles, and not on this crap.
          1. 0
            25 January 2019 14: 00
            Dead PLO, after the strikes of warheads at naval bases and airfields, NATO will rise from the ashes and go looking for Poseidons.
            1. +4
              25 January 2019 15: 48
              You explain, you explain:

              1. After hitting warheads, there is no point in Poseidon - approximately 60 of millions of Americans died, at least 100 of millions will die of consequences during the year, the rest will be heaped between radioactive tails, and among them there will also be a very high mortality rate, from hunger, cancer, food wars etc.
              At the same time, the population of coastal cities will already be dead - there are too many important targets for ICBMs and SLBMs.

              2. In Russia, millions of people will die from 100 at the time of the American strike, of the survivors from 8 to 20, millions will die within the next year from the consequences.

              3. The only reasonable task of the authorities will be to ensure the survival of the survivors.

              4. The only military task will not allow anyone to finish off the survivors.

              5. What does Poseidon give in this situation? Nothing.

              6. At the same time, if a strike from the United States was missed, and our missiles were mostly destroyed at the start, then Poseidon, as a means of retaliation, is also useless, because under this scenario, the US PLO survives quite well. And then no Poseidon simply will not reach the goal, because the carriers will be destroyed along with the rest of the SNF - one of the first, and the surviving mega-torpedoes will be intercepted here in these very narrows about which the article is written.

              But for the money that was spent on this nonsense, it was possible to upgrade ALL torpedoes in the fleet, carry out hundreds of firing, replace the hydroacoustic countermeasure means on submarines, arm them with anti-torpedoes, double the number of submarine exercises, with duo PLAT against SSBN, including under the ice, completely modernize the PLO forces, the PMO forces, work out regular monitoring of the underwater situation around the naval base, the operation of displacing the USMPL of the US Navy and the KVMS of the United Kingdom from the combat use of SSBNs, and eventually be combat stability SSBNs to a level at which the US disarming strike would be impossible, even in theory, and hence no vundervaffe would not need.

              At the same time, from such investments it would be much more useful in local wars, where patrol aircraft would be perfectly fit, and multi-purpose submarines with cruise missiles.

              That's what it was necessary to invest in, and not in the sawn-off project, which ate all this, but which STILL IS NOT, AND UNKNOWN WHEN IT WILL BE (there were no tests "under the reactor" yet).

              Turn your head on somehow.
              1. -2
                25 January 2019 18: 35
                There are too few warheads - that would destroy even 30% of the US industrial potential - but the explosion of a dozen thermonuclear 100 megaton warheads along the entire coastline will destroy more than 60% of the industry, and the rest will become worthless, from 150 - 750 kiloton warheads will not be heavily contaminated - and warheads will be needed to destroy dozens of US bases in other territories.
  41. +1
    24 January 2019 16: 18
    Test article. I conclude that the Japs horseradish horseradish, not the island
  42. 0
    24 January 2019 16: 57
    Well, it was a sinful thing for me to think that in military schools and academies officers, including naval ones, are taught how to "embroider" Anglo-Saxon bottlenecks in case of war. But, apparently, I was mistaken if we take the facts stated as a basis.
    1. +2
      24 January 2019 19: 11
      They have learned, but now there is no more strength and money.
  43. +4
    24 January 2019 17: 05
    Well, of course, Timokhin. laughing I am far from being a hat, but your endless howling about how bad everything is even starting to surprise me. Calm down a little, listen to other people, think. Do not be so categorical in your conclusions (for example, according to Poseidon), do not consider yourself smarter than everyone. How many times have you already been told that it is not necessary to bring Poseidon out only when it is already "attached". How many times have already written about the fact that this is not just a torpedo and most likely there is the possibility of a long stay in the desired area. No, you still don't hear anyone and continue to talk about the uselessness, uselessness of this platform and the sawing off of money.
    As for this article. What do you propose with battles, by all means, to break through our Navy into the open ocean? What for? Let our "partners" control all your narrows (if they can smile )
    1. -1
      24 January 2019 19: 12
      How many times have they written about the fact that this is not just a torpedo and most likely there is the possibility of a long stay in the right area.


      I on this issue not only communicate with bloggers (and mostly not with them), experts have a completely different opinion on this machine. And it is quite justified.
      1. 0
        24 January 2019 21: 41
        I’ll only tell you the only thing - time will tell and I think soon. smile
      2. +1
        25 January 2019 07: 32
        Well, if all your "specialists" are of the level of Admiral Karev, who admit such "bloopers" in their articles, then their competence raises great doubts.
        1. +4
          25 January 2019 10: 10
          Quote: Rakovor

          Well, if all your "specialists" are of the level of Admiral Karev, who admit such "bloopers" in their articles, then their competence raises great doubts.

          On the Rusarmi forum, one of the local administrators tried to prove to me on the basis of this man's memoirs that because they lost some aircraft carrier and because of this the world was on the brink of a nuclear war, and everyone should believe in this ... I had to point out to this fool in a mild form that, in addition to the reconnaissance of the Pacific Fleet, there is also strategic intelligence, where they also monitor the entire situation, and if the naval ones burst out, this still does not mean anything. In general, I was eventually banned, but I remember the name Karev ...
          1. +3
            25 January 2019 11: 17
            I read this article of his about the "lost" aircraft carrier. A blatant inconsistency immediately caught my eye. He writes that after ours finally discovered this supposedly lost aircraft carrier, the entire Pacific Fleet, consisting of the aircraft carriers Minsk and Novorossiysk and the nuclear-powered cruiser Frunze, met him in the Sea of ​​Japan. Let me remind you that the events took place in September 1982.
            Damn it, you just have to look at Wikipedia to find out that "Novorossiysk" came to the Pacific Fleet in 1984, and "Frunze" in general at the end of 1985. And this is written by a whole rear admiral, the head of the Pacific Fleet intelligence. The level of competence is off scale. I understand if it would have been a TSC or an IPC, but don't remember when SUCH ships appeared in your fleet - it's something with something.
            But our "respected" Timokhin builds many of his conclusions about the combat readiness of the Pacific Fleet at that time precisely on the information received from this, so to speak, admiral.
            1. +2
              25 January 2019 13: 51
              Do not forget that he writes this at an old age, decades after the events in question. Memory, sometimes, fails even old people. There are other inconsistencies there, take the same fact that the Tu-16 pilots did not report on the type of aircraft that intercepted them at night - this could not be, the type of interceptor is a fundamentally important intelligence sign of the AB air group, they would be asked first of all. Everything was explained somehow differently there.
              But the fact of the American provocation is undeniable. Or do you want to challenge this historic event?
            2. -1
              25 January 2019 17: 30
              Quote: Rakovor
              But our "respected" Timokhin builds many of his conclusions about the combat readiness of the Pacific Fleet at that time precisely on the information received from this, so to speak, admiral.

              I have already understood what kind of author he is, and that his "discoveries" should be treated with a certain degree of skepticism - and that's putting it mildly. His reference to Karev is only confirmation of this.
            3. 0
              25 January 2019 17: 50
              Quote: Rakovor
              I understand if it were TSC or IPC, but don’t remember when SUCH ships appeared on your fleet - this is something with something.

              It can still be forgiven him, because he is not one of the "operators". But the fact that he does not have an idea of ​​all the military intelligence of the USSR, including the species and the GRU General Staff in particular, does not adorn this chief at all. However, I admit that his memoirs were spoken on tape, and then the literary man processed them, and even dragged them on his own, that's why such bloopers turned out.
      3. +2
        25 January 2019 08: 02
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        and basically not with them

        bully I like your veiled hints so much! Alexander, do you even understand that you have already spoken article 283 / 1 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation?
        1. +1
          25 January 2019 09: 07
          No, I didn’t. I don’t have access and I don’t disclose any state secrets. Specialists too, but being specialists and engineers of the corresponding profile, they can very well calculate this Poseidon.
          1. 0
            25 January 2019 14: 59
            Timokhin, so I would like to look at these calculations. But for some reason they are not. Some screams "I HAVE DRINKED, AND I AM NOT AT THE FEEDER" ....
            1. +1
              25 January 2019 15: 50
              Soon. wink
              Just a short time left.
              1. +1
                25 January 2019 17: 30
                Well, wait. Just why it was impossible to bring right away? In the first article?
    2. +2
      25 January 2019 10: 43
      Quote: Alexey Vasilievich I
      endless howls about how bad

      And we who didn’t know wars tried to comprehend
      For the war cry, those who took the howl
      The secret of the word order, the position of borders,
      The meaning of the attack and the clash of war chariots.

      Today is the birthday of V.S. Vysotsky
  44. +3
    24 January 2019 17: 42
    that the same "Poseidon" will be released into free float somewhere here,

    You either do not understand the word AT ALL or distort.
    Poseidon will not be released anywhere in the event of war, moreover, even with the onset of the threatening period, he will not be released anywhere.
    Poseidons all their time of operation with the exception of brief periods of technical support will lie off the coast of the adversary (IN WHICH WITH THE EXIT TO THE OCEAN THAT IS ALL NORMAL laughing ) next to your goals. And the indicated bucks you will pass in peacetime A MAY ALREADY PASS.
    I repeat Poseidon is not a torpedo but a UAV. And the horror of submariners is the dream of command - it is always on combat duty on a long hike.
    1. +6
      24 January 2019 17: 47
      Quote: bk316
      she is always on combat duty on a long hike.
      Reply

      And how do commands come to her computer?
      1. +3
        24 January 2019 19: 14
        Your question may cause a system failure in the operating system of our cheer patriots.
        1. +2
          24 January 2019 21: 18
          Electronic maps of the oceans and pre-programmed routes.
          1. +3
            24 January 2019 21: 38
            Quote: Vadim237
            Electronic maps of the oceans and pre-programmed routes.

            Well, let this thing go through advance routes, but tell me how it takes teams to blow up.
            1. 0
              25 January 2019 14: 05
              By reference to an electronic map of the area or by a unique noise - created by the aircraft carrier’s propellers - which is included in the initial program.
              1. +1
                25 January 2019 14: 12
                Quote: Vadim237
                By reference to an electronic map of the area or by a unique noise - created by the aircraft carrier’s propellers - which is included in the initial program.

                That is, they will launch it only after the adversary’s nuclear attack on our homeland. In this case, there are many chances that they simply will not have time to start.
                1. 0
                  25 January 2019 15: 04
                  That is, they will launch it only after the adversary’s nuclear attack on our homeland.

                  Are you going to be the first to attack Omerika?
                2. 0
                  25 January 2019 18: 37
                  What does it mean they don’t have time - they will go on a trip along with the launches of ICBMs, and in order to manage to launch everything, Russia has a missile defense system.
                  1. +1
                    25 January 2019 18: 42
                    Quote: Vadim237
                    take a trip along with the launches of ICBMs,

                    They will be waiting on the way.
        2. +1
          25 January 2019 07: 45
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          Your question may cause

          laughing Your vanity right off the scale !!!
      2. -1
        25 January 2019 07: 44
        Quote: Mordvin 3
        And how do commands come to her computer?

        laughing Pigeon mail! Have you heard of Starinov and Kharkov?
        1. +2
          25 January 2019 17: 04
          Quote: Serg65
          Pigeon mail!

          But-but-but ... the pigeons are the Air Force. And in the Navy, underwater affairs is led by senior midshipman Cthulhu. smile
          1. +1
            26 January 2019 06: 50
            hi
            Quote: Alexey RA
            underwater affairs is headed by senior midshipman Cthulhu.

            what I would have slept less, you would have looked and would have been a junior lieutenant! laughing drinks
      3. -1
        25 January 2019 15: 01
        That's exactly the same as the commands on the submarine arrive. Or do you think the astropath team is sitting on the submarine?
        1. +1
          25 January 2019 15: 22
          Quote: Newone
          That's exactly the same as the commands on the submarine arrive.

          Communication with the submarine in the underwater position is through a beacon, which the submarine releases to the surface.
          1. +1
            25 January 2019 15: 57
            It's useless.
            Just trust me smile
            1. +1
              25 January 2019 16: 03
              Easy, I have nothing to do with the fleet. wink So take it and write about the connection of the submarines, there was nothing on this topic in my opinion. (I did not come across). But interesting.
          2. +2
            25 January 2019 17: 01
            Quote: Mordvin 3

            Communication with the submarine in the underwater position is through a beacon, which the submarine releases to the surface.

            There is another option with ADD communications ... but as I can imagine, an underwater drone with a multi-kilometer antenna tail, controlled at ADD frequencies. belay
            1. +1
              25 January 2019 17: 09
              Quote: Alexey RA
              There is still an option with an SDV antenna ... but how would I imagine a UAV with a multi-kilometer tail antenna, controlled at the frequencies of the LEDs.

              That's why I asked to write about the connection with the submarine. I don’t understand much about it. sad
            2. 0
              26 January 2019 19: 26
              There is a lot to imagine about this ship with a constantly released "gut" on the database. feel Taking into account the possibilities of this "shelezyaki" declared by the forum participants and its size .... In addition to science fiction, nothing comes to mind for the Jedi ..... If all this can be mass-produced by the Russian Federation, then the event concerning which the author said that it will be possible spit in the temporary tenant of the oval office, it has already happened crying
      4. 0
        28 January 2019 12: 02
        And how do commands come to her computer?

        Like all others on the submarine.
        Either on extra-long waves, or through a buoy.
        Yes, I anticipate.
        1. I know Kotelnikov’s theorem.
        2. I know how the connection is arranged for an extra-long and even in what state SOME objects of this system.
        3. I understand that a radio buoy will lead to detection late.

        only
        1. Team exchanges require negligible channel requirements.
        2. We are talking about SOME objects.
        3. This will not be a buoy with a transmitting antenna but with a RECEIVING antenna, while the amount of debris floating in the ocean will be unacceptably long.
    2. +1
      24 January 2019 19: 13
      They can’t be found anywhere else, this is prohibited by international treaties that the Russian Federation has quite signed for itself.
      1. 0
        28 January 2019 18: 57
        which the Russian Federation has signed for itself.

        Forget soon they will not be from the word at all.
    3. +3
      24 January 2019 20: 21
      Quote: bk316
      I repeat Poseidon is not a torpedo but a UAV. And the horror of submariners is the dream of command - it is always on combat duty on a long hike.

      This will not work - the frequency of servicing the nuclear charge will require the creation of a base in the form of a specialized ship, which itself will be a unmasking sign and require protection by warships.
      As an option, the carrier of Poseidon himself will be on duty with all the ensuing operational capabilities.
  45. +1
    24 January 2019 17: 53
    So what? Everything is bad!? We give it to you!
    After reading the article, there was a feeling that on that side there were only Betman and Schwarzeneggers. However, consciousness draws Sevastopol, Stalingrad, the Kursk Bulge, Afghanistan ... It was difficult, it was bloody, but heaped on everyone the very tomatoes, and now heaped. Such pisemism blows from pisulka that you just want to tear shoulder straps.
    Although in the scenario from the article - "when everything is locked," the author is a specialist who is silent about "Satan", "Voevoda", "Bulava", and other comrades, as if with such constipation we would continue to fight in "Zhentelmen style". I did this in order to make everything look darker, suddenly we will immediately give up ...
  46. +3
    24 January 2019 18: 49
    That's right. The author has pointed out, please explain only one thing, why do we need to break through somewhere? To prevent an adversary in the Barents and Okhotsk Seas is the whole task that the fleets face. And what is needed for this, recently another Author described in detail.
    1. 0
      25 January 2019 09: 09
      With a massive attack by NATO and the United States - yes, it is. With limited options, everything is possible.
      And it is advisable to be prepared for this.
      Well, "Poseidon" will not get through there, this also needs to be understood in advance.
      1. 0
        25 January 2019 19: 57
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Poseidon can't get through there

        You shall not pass belay
  47. 0
    24 January 2019 19: 30
    I read and realized that it was time to surrender!
    1. -1
      24 January 2019 21: 24
      So when they bring a colt to your head and offer to give up, I would really like to look at you.
  48. -1
    24 January 2019 19: 56
    You have confirmed my conclusions about the futility of first-class ships. I note that ships of the second rank, and the first, are still needed for the protection and defense of the Northern Sea Route. This is time. The second - "Poseidon" you estimate according to open data, but if there really is a nuclear propulsion system, then, in principle, it can be launched even from a raid, there is not much difference, and the introduced program will lead it to the goal without operator intervention. The bad thing here is that there is no way to stop it in case of need, and no one in the world is immune from mistakes and idiots (in the clinical sense). The same is for TF. Here it is important to determine the goals, objectives and potential enemy - his capabilities. I don't think that it will be NATO in the foreseeable future, neither Europe nor the United States needs a nuclear war, and any war in the modern world first causes the temptation to use tactical atomic weapons, and then ... then it cannot be stopped. A war on the TF is only possible if some internal factors coincide with the PRC. First of all, if, due to external factors, the well-being of the population collapses and the CCP considers it necessary to conduct a small victorious war for its own preservation. This is where they will trample in this case, this is an open question.
  49. +1
    24 January 2019 19: 56
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    It already gives medicine

    Sochi as a target for using the enemy's analogue of "Poseidon" is a clean clinic on your part.
    1. 0
      25 January 2019 09: 09
      I just listed the cities on the coast so that you do not drive the blizzard about the fact that everything is in the depths of the territory. Not all.
      1. 0
        25 January 2019 09: 22
        Above, I have given criteria for choosing coastal targets for self-propelled crewless underwater vehicles equipped with the 100-Mtn three-stage thermonuclear warheads: the presence of a mobile reserve, industrial infrastructure and military bases.

        Where did you see in Sochi at least one of these criteria (well, except perhaps the Armenians and Abkhazians, who make up the majority of the local population) laughing

        PS Do you currently reside in Brighton Beach because you do not know Russian realities?
        1. +1
          25 January 2019 10: 36
          Abkhazians in the majority of the population of Sochi? I like your train of thought))
          1. 0
            25 January 2019 10: 38
            Not Abkhazians, but Armenians and Abkhazians.
            Have you been to Sochi for a long time?
            1. 0
              25 January 2019 11: 37
              I’ve been there all the time, mostly mostly passing.
  50. 0
    24 January 2019 20: 04
    Well, we don’t have free access to the oceans, so you have to rejoice, no one will come to us from the sea, and the ICBM does not care about the oceans.
    1. 0
      24 January 2019 21: 20
      But the Arctic and Pacific - not see the oceans.
      1. +3
        25 January 2019 09: 11
        Arctic Arctic is a closed water area, from which, if something happens, you can’t get out. In the Pacific Ocean, only Kamchatka, but there the Americans graze like at home.
        1. 0
          25 January 2019 14: 08
          The dead will not interfere.
          1. +2
            25 January 2019 15: 50
            Above you answered.
  51. +3
    24 January 2019 20: 42
    Anglo-Saxons... Anglo-Saxons... Ah, I remembered there was such a small people that died out in the 10th century.
  52. 0
    24 January 2019 20: 58
    A tub of cold water.
    But not everyone got it.
  53. +2
    24 January 2019 21: 17
    Any bottlenecks can be expanded if necessary.
    In general, there is no point in racing in an expensive fleet race. Our combat environment is land, the atmosphere is the stratosphere, and, of course, space. Where do any foreign fleets and individual ships come from - like flies on a table under a fly swatter.
    Therefore, we are solving the main problems of such topics as autonomous nuclear power plants with acceptable weight and size parameters, and we are also making a nuclear propulsion device for space.
    I'm not even talking about tectonics - Japan itself is simply naked in front of us in this regard, no matter how powerful and numerous a fleet it has built, costing unimaginable trillions of dollars.
    1. -1
      24 January 2019 21: 29
      I liked it - “Any bottlenecks can be expanded if necessary” - you give them a strait. Stalin between Mexico and Canada laughing
  54. +1
    24 January 2019 21: 38
    ...and then, depending on the result, or stop us at the Faroe-Iceland border with mass mining...

    900 km of minefields between England and Iceland + 300 between Iceland and Greenland. Mines in at least two rows at a distance of 100 m. 20000 min. And you can break through the field with just one explosion of an atomic charge from the same Poseidon.
    You better be careful with a small-scale world map.
    1. +1
      25 January 2019 01: 39
      ....stop us at the Faroe-Iceland border with the help of massive mining, air strikes and surface and underwater attacks...

      More like air strikes. ShPS find and identify targets throughout this water area. If they lay mines, it will only be in one or two places where their aircraft will not quickly arrive. Massive mining will cut off communications from the countries of the Baltic and North Seas, plus Norway.
      Noise direction finder sensors today quite accurately determine the coordinates of a sea target in a given period of time in accordance with its course. By coordinating these coordinates with space reconnaissance data, it is possible to launch hypersonic missile strikes on their ships in this area with time adjustments. Therefore, their aircraft will operate only from ground airfields or from aircraft carriers not included in the coverage area of ​​the Mig-31 with Daggers.
      The submarine fleet will most likely have its own underwater targets. And if our fleet has problems from their boats, in theory, they will have the same ones.
      1. 0
        25 January 2019 02: 32


        This is approximately the safe location of their AUG.
        Unfortunately, the remaining ships are smaller and more maneuverable and are not suitable targets for Daggers without accurate radar or other fixation.
        1. 0
          25 January 2019 14: 10
          One of these has already been maneuvered and is still being lifted.
    2. 0
      25 January 2019 09: 14
      Why so many mines? The old Captor has a target detection range of a kilometer.
      1. 0
        25 January 2019 12: 10
        One mine per kilometer is nonsense for a minesweeper. This is not mass mining. And even just one of them will work, at least a whole fleet will pass through the resulting 1 km window.
        1. +2
          25 January 2019 13: 52
          How are you going to get the minesweeper there? How will a minesweeper “clean out” a mine installed at a depth of hundreds of meters? We do not have “destroyers” in the required quantity.
          1. 0
            25 January 2019 15: 31
            Yes, you don’t need min at all. Today, with a system for clearly defining coordinates, this method of counteraction looks weak, especially over such a vast territory.
            But, if we agree with your idea, then one minesweeper will be enough to neutralize a safe passage. The rest will set a course in the automated control system and will follow strictly according to safe coordinates.
            1. +1
              25 January 2019 21: 23
              one minesweeper is enough,


              Captors are tuned to the noise of a submarine. The Americans can cope with surface ships even without captors (or they think they can cope). And then, for every mine blown up, a B-1 will fly in and lay 24 more.

              In the computer game "Harpoon", by the way, there are two barriers of captors in two rows, and this game was made by a former naval sailor.
        2. +1
          25 January 2019 16: 51
          Quote: pyc.arpeccop tornado 150
          One mine per kilometer is nonsense for a minesweeper.

          All that's left to do is find a minesweeper. We now have exactly one modern TSCH-IM for the entire Navy.
      2. -1
        25 January 2019 21: 43
        Timokhin, Kaptor are essentially small-sized homing torpedoes launched by a signal from a passive noise direction finder. Anti-torpedoes (active countermeasures) remove this threat with a high degree of probability. Our developments on this topic (including the posts of the same mina on the courage forum) are significant (the same Package, for example). Our passive countermeasures (again, according to the same mina) are not so developed, but Captor torpedoes are not the height of perfection.
  55. +2
    24 January 2019 22: 05
    The author is stubborn. Our fleet will be locked on planet earth. And if he heads west, destroyers with mines will be waiting for him here, asking for bricks. The last time I heard such nonsense was in the film "Two Captains - 2". Funny article.
  56. +1
    24 January 2019 22: 52
    The author of this puzzle does not appear to be childishly dabbling in mushrooms or other chemicals. Or maybe he sits here at VO, for lack of a brain, and writes articles ordered by various gozmans and other “liberal” husk.
    Let's write another article about "how bad everything is and what we should do next"
    1. 0
      25 January 2019 09: 22
      Let's write another article about "how bad everything is and what we should do next"


      This is what your mother did to you in the maternity hospital. I can't do that, sorry laughing
  57. +4
    24 January 2019 22: 54
    The article evokes a strange feeling: on the one hand, the conclusions are mostly correct, on the other hand, the arguments given are so “strange” that they do not agree with the conclusions at all.
  58. +1
    24 January 2019 23: 37
    1) "Poseidon" can be launched from submarines that are on combat duty in the world's oceans at the time of the outbreak of the conflict. Those. They will go there even before the start of hostilities.
    2) When entering our seas, NATO fleets will meet with aerospace forces, shore-based anti-ship missiles, diesel-electric submarines and small missiles with "calibers", etc. It is unlikely that they will survive this meeting)
    Otherwise, the article makes a lot of sense. The only thing that is incomprehensible is the defeatist pathos. Moreover, we still have no choice - an attempt to “be friends” with them in the late 80s - in the 90s led to catastrophic consequences...
    1. +3
      25 January 2019 09: 17
      Why should NATO fleets enter our seas? The air wing of any American aircraft carrier can hit Kaliningrad from the North Sea. Any destroyer will get a Peter Tomahawk from the fjords of Norway if the Ams decide to shoot through the neutrals in a straight line.
      1. 0
        25 January 2019 13: 49
        The question should be different: Why should OUR fleet go out into the World Ocean (where, we note, its chances are not great against AUG), when there are a lot of targets at distances that can be hit by SHORT-range missiles? And why does the Northern Fleet rush into the Atlantic when there are destroyers firing at St. Petersburg in the “fjords of Norway”? Why does the Northern Fleet rush into the Atlantic when the entire United States is covered with Maces from its anchorages? Why should the Pacific Fleet go out into the Pacific Ocean when it reaches Japan from anchorages, and the SSBN deployment area is in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk and it is almost impossible to pick the Pacific Fleet out of this area, but to prevent the “over-the-horizon landing” wassat "or an air attack, is he more than capable?
        And on the AUG there is a “Container” with “Vanguard”. Here the aircraft carrier has no chance even in the medium term. And there are much more Vanguards than aircraft carriers.
      2. +1
        26 January 2019 00: 45
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Why should NATO fleets enter our seas? The air wing of any American aircraft carrier can hit Kaliningrad from the North Sea. Any destroyer will get a Peter Tomahawk from the fjords of Norway if the Ams decide to shoot through the neutrals in a straight line.

        Yes, but the air wing will have to meet the S-400 with a destruction range of 250 km (existing missiles and 400 promising ones), despite the fact that their anti-radar AGM-88 flies only 100 km; they will also be met by MiG-31BM with R-37 with a range of 280 km, with their longest range AIM-120D - 180 km; if they happen to get involved in close combat, things will be even worse for them, because only the F-22 has a controlled thrust vector (and, accordingly, super-maneuverability), and then only in one plane (and it’s not deck-based); we have serial ones - Su-35 -30cm, promising SU-57 and MiG-35. The missile guidance system by turning the pilot’s head has been introduced for a long time, they are only developing it for the F-35...
        With Tomahawks, they can cause trouble due to their numbers, even though the majority will be shot down, only these will be troubles mainly for the civilian population, and not for defense capability as such. This was shown by all their local wars where Tomahawks were used. At one time, several hundred were fired at Iraq, but did not destroy the defense capability; the decisive contribution was still made by ground forces (both in 1991 and 2003). And this is small Iraq, located in the desert, it could be attacked from all sides, the Tomahawk flies over it several times in any direction... In Russia, they could only hit coastal targets, and the percentage of Tomahawks that reached it would be many times smaller.
  59. +5
    25 January 2019 00: 21
    The most important topic, first of all, I fully support Alexander Timokhin is that the fleet is locked in Primorye, at the same time in Kamchatka it is rather weak.... a natural solution would be to completely move the fleet to Kamchatka, creating there a powerful naval base with aviation, coastal assets, surface and submarine ships, but for this, in my opinion, the General Staff of the Navy should be expelled in disgrace for the collapse of work and the creation of a dangerous situation in the Pacific Fleet.
    1. +5
      25 January 2019 07: 52
      It will be expensive to maintain the entire fleet in Kamchatka, very expensive. It’s just that for its daily life activities it will be necessary to build a huge transport fleet, because there is no land route to Kamchatka. Yes, and it is very easy to block supplies in the event of a DB outbreak, and there are negative historical examples of this kind: Port Arthur, Pearl Harbor.
      1. 0
        25 January 2019 14: 14
        A railway will be built to Kamchatka by 2050. There is already a project.
    2. +4
      25 January 2019 09: 17
      Congratulations Vladimir, you wrote a sensible comment. This event! laughing
      In general, I agree with you.
      1. 0
        25 January 2019 14: 02
        This is not a proposal, but idiocy. Organizing normal maintenance of crew ships in Avacha Bay is EXTREMELY expensive. No capacity, no workers, no transport. Kamchatka is in fact an island, supplied through Vladivostok. The KON of the fleet, if such a proposal is implemented, will fall to zero. In the USSR it was supported in Kamchatka through titanic efforts. And we need to INCREASE CON as much as possible.
        1. +2
          25 January 2019 15: 54
          This is no longer a naval, but an economic issue; the economy of Kamchatka must be developed as far as possible under those conditions, then there will be cargo flow from here to there, and it will simplify supplies, including to the Navy.

          In reality, it’s not worth sending the entire fleet to Kamchatka, of course, but Russia has no other places where we would immediately find ourselves in this very World Ocean. There are the only harbors, the blockade of which, with the right actions on our part (and not as it is now), will require disproportionately large forces and will be accompanied by unrealistically large losses.
          1. 0
            25 January 2019 17: 49
            Timokhin, in Kamchatka the fleet is immediately under attack from the ocean.
            And fundamentally, in the current conditions, a fleet standing at the quay wall at a base ceases to be a fleet 20 minutes after the start of the conflict. And there is only one way out of this situation - high CON and constant combat service with the largest number of ships. And this can be ensured by a well-developed infrastructure, including ship repair, good logistics capabilities (bring spare parts and fuel) and favorable operating conditions (it is extremely difficult to maintain high combat readiness where pipelines constantly burst due to frost).
          2. +2
            26 January 2019 00: 36
            Thanks to everyone who responded to the idea, and especially to Alexander Timokhin for his support. As for the economy, sea transport in general is not more expensive than rail transport, and even cheaper, port services only complicate it, when moving goods by the northern sea route, it may be cheaper than a long road, but the issue is safety countries! Regarding the vulnerability of naval bases, the larger the base, the less vulnerable it is, because it can be equipped with air defense and anti-aircraft defense, but Vladivostok is simply hit from the Japanese islands..... In Petropavlovsk, you can create such strategic reserves that there will be no need for transportation during war. As for the equipment of the base, it’s more important than cutting up a pointless base in the Caspian Sea. By the way, the cruiser Varyag is already based in Kamchatka, there is a submarine base there, so there is a certain infrastructure; it is quite possible to find berths and infrastructure for three BODs and 6 diesel-electric submarines.
            1. 0
              26 January 2019 11: 06
              Quote: vladimir1155
              As for the economy, sea transport in general is not more expensive than railway transport, and even cheaper, port services only complicate it, when moving goods by the northern sea route, it may be cheaper than a long road, but the question is the security of the country!

              In fact, sea transport becomes cheaper only at distances over 1-1,5 thousand km. And up to these distances it cannot compete with either road or rail transport. Of course, if the same conditions exist, i.e. when there are three delivery methods of approximately equal length. Everyone involved in logistics knows this.
        2. +1
          27 January 2019 23: 34
          Quote: Newone
          The KON of the fleet, if such a proposal is implemented, will fall to zero. In the USSR it was supported in Kamchatka through titanic efforts. And we need to INCREASE CON as much as possible.
          Please forgive me, but as I understand it, the trouble is that at the Pacific Fleet there is simply nothing to increase the KON. If I understand correctly, there is one cruiser, three BODs, and one SSBN Project 971 left “in service”?! How to raise something? Two “toothless” corvettes for PLO 20380?. Not funny.
          Of course, the 6 planned “Varshavyankas” (for the Pacific Fleet) can help in some way in providing anti-aircraft defense in places where SSBNs are deployed, and then only in part.
          But I would like to see the laying down for the Pacific Fleet of new frigates 22350, about 4-5 units (let’s say 2-3 units each at the Northern Shipyard, and the Baltic Shipyard, in parallel), to provide anti-aircraft defense for 4-6 Zelenodolsk "Gepard" pr. 11661-K(E) (with GAS "Zarya", VPU for "Caliber", and GEM DDA-12000), at the Amur Shipyard, 4-5 new MTSAPL 971M, not burry ones (expensive and useless 20380), but at Kaliningrad "Yantar", 2-3 BOD 1155, in version - http://roe.ru/upload/resize_cache/iblock/221/415_500_1e3cd68611aa859771f9d287689e58ce0/22184ab6a043cd62deb46bac6fb27bb2.jpg, (with let's say "calibrated") where to update the radar at least to the level " Poliment", and the VPU of the "Redut" air defense system instead of the "Dagger", and the power plant by analogy with the Soviet M7a, (where the main ones will be M70FRU, and the afterburners will be M90FR), the SJSC "Zvezda-2" (or if there is something newer).
          Those. to use the country's shipbuilding enterprises on the principle of producing exactly those warships that can be manufactured there more quickly and efficiently.
    3. +3
      25 January 2019 12: 44
      Quote: vladimir1155
      the most important topic, firstly, I fully support Alexander Timokhin in that the fleet is locked in Primorye, while at the same time in Kamchatka it is rather weak.

      In my opinion, Alexander explained everything very accurately and concisely. The article is wonderful and there is nothing more to add.
  60. 0
    25 January 2019 01: 05
    Maybe that’s why Vova saws calibrated river boats?
    1. +3
      25 January 2019 09: 18
      It no longer cuts, there are no diesel engines.
      1. 0
        26 January 2019 14: 52
        By the way, they started making diesel engines - Karakurt already has our diesel engines. Chinese...
        1. +3
          26 January 2019 16: 21
          http://otvaga2004.ru/armiya-i-vpk/armiya-i-vpk-vzglyad/dizelnyj-nokaut-rossijskogo-voenno-morskogo-flota/

          At the cost of extreme efforts, it was possible to achieve that in 2019 Zvezda will make two sets of power plants. This means that two out of three buildings at the Pella outfitting wall can be handed over.

          The downside is that the entire series will be collected at this rate for the next ten years.

          So we haven't started anything yet.
      2. 0
        27 January 2019 23: 42
        Alexander, thanks for the article. good article!
  61. +4
    25 January 2019 06: 48
    The main weapon today is the economy of the state, not guns, planes, ships! Economically, our country is very, very weak. If we already consider the military scenario, it is worth remembering the R-36M Satan missile, capable of carrying up to 16 warheads. 1 shot - up to 16 military bases/cities/ports are transferred to the “were once in this place” classification. The bourgeoisie understands this very well and does not want to lose their measured - comfortable - well-fed way of life. They will ruin us economically. Everything happens according to Mr. Brzezinski's script. Look how all moral principles are washed away, how the concept of honor and decency is replaced. Everywhere you look there is corruption. industry is in decline. The main thing is “Buy and Sell”. It is not beneficial for an open war to start with the Russian Federation. Everything is much easier; we can be destroyed from within.
  62. Cry
    +1
    25 January 2019 11: 17
    A cool strategist wrote it, very cool. Composer! Do you understand?
  63. +2
    25 January 2019 12: 43
    Wonderful article, thank you, it was very interesting!
  64. -1
    25 January 2019 12: 44
    When our ships are based in Primorye, they have several exits to the World Ocean - the Tsushima Strait, the Sangar Strait and several Kuril Straits.

    The Catherine Strait is an ice-free strait and its protection can be ensured if appropriate infrastructure is placed on the islands, including special infrastructure for detecting enemy submarines. This is a Russian-controlled (for now) entry of the fleet into the ocean. And if “servants of the people”, but in essence the owners They'll sell the skeleton for a pack of cookies and a jar of jam - then yes, the fleet can be cut into metal.
  65. 5-9
    0
    25 January 2019 14: 32
    It remains only to find out WHY our fleet goes to the World Ocean, especially in war conditions...why today and in the current composition, and not “The USA and the EU will disintegrate, we will annex Australia - how to protect it from the new super-state of Brasimexica in 2050” ?
    1. +3
      25 January 2019 15: 57
      It depends on what kind of war is going on. In a global war - to move the defensive lines further from the territory of the Russian Federation.

      Right now, there may be a limited operation in Venezuela. Everything will also be done through the oceans.
  66. -1
    25 January 2019 17: 06
    In response to "There is no way out. On the geographical closeness of the oceans for the Russian Navy

    Let's put an end to illusions regarding the need for excessive spending on equipping the fleet to the detriment of solving other important problems. Before Peter there was no fleet in Rus'. A little river and coastal fleet was developed in Kievan Rus, but this was Scandinavian influence. The great land space was acquired not from the coast, but inland.
    We generally do not have rich historical traditions in the development of maritime spaces like other civilizations. Let us remember the Filipinos, Maoris, and even from more distant history, the seizure of the eastern Mediterranean, which was carried out by tribes that were called “peoples of the sea.”
    Well, we are not sailors, like the Anglo-Saxons. And nothing is loaded about this. Therefore, the defense of vast spaces should be built not at sea, but on the shore. And develop the accompanying infrastructure. In order for the fortress to survive, you need to invest thoroughly.
    Russia's population has historically been distributed further from the coastline, unlike Americans and Western Europeans.
    1. 0
      25 January 2019 18: 21
      You are completely wrong. And about traditions and about the need for a powerful fleet. Moreover, in the current situation (the expansion of hostile territory up to the Belgorod-Rostov line on the Don with the presence of relatively free access to the seas), the fleet is becoming one of the determining factors in the defense of the country (which practically did not exist before).
      1. -1
        25 January 2019 18: 46
        Another determining factor in the country's defense in the next few years will be MRBMs - capable of operating against AUGs and submarines.
      2. 0
        25 January 2019 20: 03
        Line Belgorod, Rostov. During the time of the “Wild Field”, and more recently, everything was decided on land there. Ports are closed - import substitution, territory is occupied - industry in the Urals. Only in the north was there weak recharge. Now they can help in the east. Therefore, it is necessary to develop internal infrastructure in those areas. And do not accept the rules of the game imposed from the outside. All the power of Britain rested on oak trees, flax, some cotton, coal and iron ore. As soon as all this rotted, the empire collapsed. We are still being imposed cliches about their greatness and promoting the ideas of globalism, which are supposedly based on the conquest of the seas. Thank God, on land we can get somewhere on foot.
        The time will come and America will suffer the same fate as all the territories that were acquired not by evolutionary, but by revolutionary means, that is, not from land, but from the sea. And the local population was not even assimilated during the interpenetration, but was simply destroyed.
        And the first pebble has already been thrown. Government crisis due to disagreements over the construction of a wall between Mexico and the United States. The Anglo-Saxons and Western European civilization, together with them, want to isolate themselves from the destructive penetration from the outside, the local Indian population, whose ancestors they mercilessly dealt with at home. The hatred of Latinos for gringos is a whole legend.
        1. +1
          25 January 2019 21: 15
          During the time of the Wild Field, this issue was resolved over the course of 400 years. And during the Second World War, this required the lives of several million soldiers and tens of millions of ordinary Soviet citizens. Perestroika, the collapse of the Warsaw Pact, the putsch in Ukraine moved the border from which hostilities will begin 1600 km in OUR direction, increased the mobilization potential of our enemies and reduced ours by several tens of millions of people. By land. By sea, we (thanks to the return of Crimea) remained with our own people. At the same time, communications that are not controlled by us for supplying fuel to all the territories we left (and indeed all of Europe) pass precisely by sea wink.
          1. 0
            25 January 2019 23: 25
            The author of this article and someone else have expressed here that in the real military-industrial complex there is a business that is divorced from common sense. This is where I completely agree. As long as there are leaders capable of reasoning, the likelihood of hostilities breaking out is low. Those objects are financed that are personally beneficial to someone at the top, and not for the sake of real benefit. As long as it is possible to exploit the theme of the Strategic Missile Forces as a universal baton, everything will be covered. That is, no breakthrough technologies. They will pull out old projects and send them into production. Therefore, a potential enemy, even like the Soviet Union, is not interested in promoting us for an arms race, we don’t have the dough for this and they are too lazy. Here the truncated SOI was pulled out. It will be easier to invest in the destruction of consciousness, especially of the elites. Figuratively speaking, you can kill us with a bag of gold, supposedly accidentally in a friendly way, rather than shoot us with a revolver. Well, these endless revelations of Navalny and others will someday gain critical mass and it will all be over.
            Here we will prove to each other as much as we want that the whale is more important than the elephant and it will defeat their whale.
            But we have Sarmatians with Vanguards, and they have Minutemen with Tridents. But they will never fly anywhere. But our bosses and theirs have a house only on their riviera, and our boss needs to send money there for the maintenance of which he does not have enough, and which he wants to extract from his subordinates, but which they also do not have.
            But this is already a problem.
            1. +1
              25 January 2019 23: 35
              Our bosses don’t give a damn about the house on the Riviera. It was to former party workers, thieves and representatives of creative professions who joined them that it seemed that a house on the Riviera was something really valuable. But only one thing has real value - power and the means of production. And all this only exists in our native Russia. And it seems that our olegarchs, unlike non-brotherly ones, understood this. For those who don’t understand, they open wine stores in Londograd for three years and then cannot pay for themselves.
              1. 0
                26 January 2019 00: 13
                When and if it’s all over, you’ll have to regret not buying a house on the Riviera. After the civil war, the ingenuous former count, who worked as a taxi driver in Paris, recalled this more than once. A house on the Riviera is like the equivalent of a golden parachute. For some, it’s also a trailer, a lot of things and comparable to the income of some region or region.
                1. +1
                  26 January 2019 02: 06
                  Honestly, the fate of ALL olegarchs who exchanged property and power in the Russian Federation for a “house on the Cote d'Azur” seems to hint that this notorious house will be owned exactly as long as the owner has power and a corresponding source of income in the Russian Federation. Without power and property in the Russian Federation, the house turns into a pumpkin. Unfortunately, in the turbulent 90s, power and property were acquired by people who had an excellent grasping reflex, but did not always have brains corresponding to the level of wealth received. I am glad that natural selection (and our “partners”) are correcting this.
    2. 0
      26 January 2019 00: 41
      In terms of ocean-going surface ships, you are right, there are literally only a few of them needed, a dozen is already unnecessary... But strategic submarines are one of the foundations of the security of the Russian Federation, the main task of the fleet is to ensure the access of strategists to the ocean, which Timokhin writes about.
    3. +1
      26 January 2019 16: 35
      If anything, pro-Americans wrote the same thing 120 years ago.
  67. +1
    25 January 2019 20: 03
    I read this quasi-scientific study. Usually, to prove a statement (including this one), an example is given. So to speak, a counterexample in analysis. On December 7, 1941, Pearl Harbor (Pearl Harbor) was attacked by Japanese aircraft. American naval and air bases were attacked by carrier-based aircraft. That is, at a distance of 250-300 miles from the Hawaiian Islands, a Japanese squadron appeared, which included aircraft carriers. But where did this squadron come from? Yokosuka, perhaps? Nothing like that! This squadron came from a Japanese naval base on one of the islands of the Kuril chain. The most interesting thing is that no one noticed the entire expedition of the squadron in the northern part of the Pacific Ocean. So, the Pacific Fleet of the Russian Federation, based on the islands of the Kuril ridge, as well as in Kamchatka, has completely open and uncontrolled access to the Pacific Ocean, both from bases in Kamchatka and from bases on the islands of the Kuril ridge. But, of course, not from Vladivostok or Shkotovo!
    1. 0
      26 January 2019 00: 55
      Then the means of detection were completely different...
    2. 0
      26 January 2019 16: 36
      No one tried to lock Kido Butai. That's not the example, that's not what it's about.
  68. 0
    25 January 2019 20: 34
    fraught with a very rapid loss of territories (the same Kamchatka and the Kuril Islands), even if temporary

    Conclusion: Give up all of Kamchatka and the Kuril Islands in advance... maybe it will blow away and... Putin will be declared Emperor of All Rus' forever.
  69. 0
    25 January 2019 22: 16
    Do we really need to swim up to the enemy’s shore within the distance of a direct shot from a ship’s gun?
    And yes, on maps of this scale, the Arctic Ocean can be closed with just two fingers, where someone can swim somewhere, and some straits can simply be blocked with a match.
    It may be difficult to sail, but it’s even more difficult to block all the straits; there are many straits, just guess which one they’ll use. To control everything all year round... maybe even the seat of a controller will not be enough.
    So they will have more headaches.
    Let them sit, suffer and wait.
    1. +1
      26 January 2019 00: 17
      Yes, I remember in the movie “Submarine” even the Germans managed to survive the war in Gibraltar.
  70. 0
    25 January 2019 22: 45
    why go out somewhere
    1. 0
      26 January 2019 02: 01
      Why the Russian fleet at all? Why build SSBNs if you cannot ensure their deployment? They are crazy expensive! Why this Poseidon? Set up "Barguzins", "Yars", "Sarmatians" and not spend a lot of money on strategic nuclear forces. The ships of the Navy will be transferred to the Defense and Defense Forces. Cover the coast with BRAV, air defense, electronic warfare and aviation. Why these show-offs with boats? If they have no tasks at sea. Do you like this picture?
  71. 0
    26 January 2019 01: 55
    In general, they have not written for a long time: “There is no way out.” They write: “No entry” - psychology!
  72. 0
    26 January 2019 10: 24
    It was very interesting to read this article. Thank you.
  73. 0
    26 January 2019 12: 17
    Some article is one-sided
  74. 0
    26 January 2019 14: 15
    I would like to ask the author: “Why, in general, go out into the world’s oceans?” Isn’t it easier to not allow access to the Arctic, the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, etc. along the perimeter at all? Russia is a land civilization and has land routes all the way from the Far North to the south of the African continent, maybe this is an asymmetric response to the Anglo-Saxons. In this case, it is possible to cover the entire Eurasian continent with an impenetrable shockproof umbrella, and the Poseidons will track the movement of Anglo-Saxon caravans where necessary. True, we will no longer help our friends from the American continent, and having high-precision weapons, we can ruin the lives of our sworn “friends”, which will not seem enough to them. Once again I would like to ask the question: “Why do we need to go out into the World Ocean if Russia, together with China, can protect all Eurasian material routes?” We can travel to China and India by train, even to Japan, if we really want to. I will not envy the USA and Australia if they find themselves alone in the empty oceans of the world, together with a shabby and weak British lion.
    1. +1
      26 January 2019 16: 37
      and the Poseidons will track, where necessary, the movement of the Anglo-Saxon caravans.


      And our traces will remain on the dusty paths of distant planets.
      The main thing is not to forget to take the pills.
  75. 0
    26 January 2019 22: 58
    Or maybe, on the contrary, there is no entrance, our banks are reliably covered
  76. 0
    26 January 2019 23: 31
    Who is Alexander Timokhin? Sofa blah blah. All of Russia is an unsinkable aircraft carrier. What straits! What exits our fleets have into the world's oceans! In peacetime and for small local conflicts, such as Syria, all straits will be free; in wartime, God forbid, of course, exits will not be needed anywhere. Other times and other ways of waging serious wars. I am sure that the General Staff and the Navy have already worked on the issue of using the fleet in all variations and in interaction with other branches of the military. So, Mr. Timokhin will give advice to his wife on how to cook cabbage soup, and how she responds to these advice will be your problems.
    1. -2
      27 January 2019 18: 50
      Quote: valerei
      I am sure that the General Staff and the Navy have already worked on the issue of using the fleet in all variations and in interaction with other branches of the military.

      We are correctly confident that this has been worked out since Soviet times, especially after the NKVMF was liquidated and the fleet was returned to the subordination of the Minister of Defense.
      Quote: valerei
      So, Mr. Timokhin will give advice to his wife on how to cook cabbage soup,

      Useful advice.
  77. 0
    27 January 2019 02: 02
    As it is sung in the song “About Strategically Important People”: “... that’s why in Russia it’s like that to hell with missiles” :))
  78. 0
    27 January 2019 08: 38
    In addition to everything described, if you give up the Kuril Islands... it will be a complete disaster.
  79. 0
    28 January 2019 09: 35
    The Northern Fleet laughed at everyone in the North Sea with nonsense and defeatism, this article!!! In Gadzhievo, also known as Murmansk, 130 guys said that the article was probably written in the Pentagon???
  80. 0
    28 January 2019 12: 06
    The author is undoubtedly right in almost everything, except for skepticism regarding the Poseidons. A drone with unlimited movement is an indispensable reconnaissance device for the current situation. And drones with 10mt nuclear warheads. capable of clearing any passages 1,5 km wide. Neither a network of sensors, nor aircraft carrier groups that will instantly find themselves at a kilometer depth, nor minefields will help. This is what they are built for.
  81. 0
    28 January 2019 12: 36
    I came across the expression that the highest class of lies is lying while telling the truth...
    Moreover, not all arguments are used in the article, so the writer has room to grow.
    For your information:
    https://zen.yandex.ru/media/id/5aedda3548c85e9c0f6cc977/kak-na-samom-dele-vygliadit-zemlia--5af8c2fe48c85e806b5f037e
    1. 0
      29 January 2019 16: 23



      If you read the inscription on the cage of an elephant: buffalo, do not believe your eyes

      From the collection of thoughts and aphorisms “Fruits of Thought” (1854) by Kozma Prutkov.
  82. 0
    29 January 2019 17: 47
    The author, apparently due to the large volume of graphic material in this publication, did not bother to familiarize himself with the latest edition of the Military Doctrine of the Russian Federation. The author thinks in terms of the Second World War, northern convoys, German aviation submarines, etc.. Russia has a defensive doctrine, and therefore there is no need to go anywhere, modern high-precision weapons will reach any aggressor from its territory, the only question is whether the number of such weapons is sufficient, i.e. It’s a matter of time, but the pursuit of Navy parity is all outdated.
  83. 0
    31 January 2019 15: 02
    We have a powerful ally - American sloppiness! http://naspravdi.info/novosti/plavuchiy-fakap-pochemu-esminec-ficdzherald-stolknulsya-s-konteynerovozom#overlay=node/44542/edit
    Where should they look for submarines if they can’t spot tankers and container ships in time?))
  84. 0
    31 January 2019 18: 51
    The “experts” of the USA and NATO argue in exactly the same way; this is the weakness of the Anglo-Saxons - they always judge everyone by themselves!...
    Thank God, we are not the West (and not the East), so we are almost always ready to answer “not according to the rules”; we have been holding on to that for more than a thousand years. How many countries in the world (especially in Europe) can boast of such longevity, and especially such a “difficult teenager” as the USA?...
  85. 0
    April 7 2019 10: 59
    Stop Poseidon? this is actually a torpedo, and a high-speed one at that, and this torpedo can be fired even directly from the shore, which they simply won’t tell us about (and in the future from an airplane/helicopter by parachute, from a TT accelerator?) what is the chance of ten such torpedoes breaking through into the world ocean at 110 knots?
  86. 0
    April 10 2019 19: 10
    The so-called “closedness” of oceans and seas is all nonsense. It is not at all necessary to go out secretly, it is necessary to “throw off the tail” in the vastness of the oceans and seas before starting combat duty in the designated area, which is not such an insurmountable task....
  87. 0
    24 September 2019 07: 58
    Thank you, good article! But, for me, not everything is so simple) Again, according to MSM, now the external situation regarding a breakthrough into the ocean (Atlantic) is much simpler than it was in the 70-80s. The NATO fleets (without the ships of the USA, France, Great Britain, etc.) are no longer the same, the USA itself can no longer concentrate its former power (which, by the way, has also decreased) exclusively against us - there is China, there is Iran, North Korea in the end . The countries of South America have also become significantly stronger economically and will slowly go to sea. Another question is that our fleet itself is now in a deplorable state, and we inherited from the USSR an erroneous basing and deployment strategy. But, I repeat, in the external arena the situation is perhaps the simplest in the last half century, if not in the entire period of the existence of our fleet (since the time of Peter).
  88. 0
    15 February 2023 14: 26
    Russia outplayed everyone.
    Firstly, this is the already well-known Northern Sea Route.
    Secondly, these are agreements with Iran on the construction of canals, with the help of which it will be possible to go from the Baltic or White Sea through the White Sea-Baltic Canal and the Volga, and then through the Caspian Sea and finally Iran directly to the Indian Ocean, bypassing the Bosphorus and the Suez Canal.
    Thirdly, this is military, economic and cultural integration with Africa, which also changes our positions for the better for us (South Africa, Madagascar, Gibraltar, Suez Canal, etc.).