What should be the multipurpose submarine of the Russian Navy? Some couch analytics

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We have devoted the last article to the appearance of a promising corvette for the Russian Navy, now let's think: what should be our multipurpose submarines?

To begin, let us recall what tasks the ships of this class (both atomic and nonatomic) must solve according to the military doctrine of the USSR:



1. Ensuring the deployment and combat stability of strategic missile submarines. In fact, the task is more important than this for multi-purpose submarines, and there simply cannot be. Providing strategic nuclear forces of the USSR (and now the Russian Federation) is an absolute priority, because the nuclear triad is, in fact, the most important (and today it is the only) guarantee of the existence of our country.

2. Anti-submarine defense of their facilities and forces, search and destruction of enemy submarines. As a matter of fact, the first task (providing the SSBN) is solved by submarines precisely by anti-submarine defense, but the latter, of course, is much broader than the SSBN cover alone. Indeed, anti-submarine defense is also required by the connections of our other warships, and coastal shipping, and the coast and bases fleet etc.

3. Destruction of warships and enemy ships operating as part of formations and groups, as well as singly. Everything is clear here - submarines must be able to fight not only against enemy submarines, but also surface ships, and destroy them, both solitary and as part of the highest operational formations of the fleets of our probable opponents (AUG / AUS).

4. Violation of maritime and oceanic communications of the enemy. Here we are talking about actions against non-military transport ships of our "sworn friends". For the USSR Navy, this task was all the more important because, in the event of the beginning of a large-scale military conflict between the countries of the ATS and NATO, the Atlantic ocean transportations assumed a strategic character for NATO. Only a speedy and massive transfer of US ground forces to Europe gave them at least a shadow of a chance to stop the Soviet "tank skating rink "without large-scale use of nuclear weapons. Accordingly, the disruption of such shipments, or even their substantial limitation, was one of the most important tasks of the USSR Navy, but only submarines could implement it in the Atlantic.

5. The destruction of important military targets of the enemy on the coast and in the depths of its territory. Of course, multipurpose submarines cannot solve this problem as dramatically as the SSBNs, but even they, being carriers of nuclear and non-nuclear cruise missiles, can cause significant damage to the enemy infrastructure.



The above objectives were key for multipurpose submarines of the Navy of the USSR, but besides them there were others, such as:

1. Conducting intelligence and providing guidance to the enemy groups. Here, of course, it did not mean that the submarine should rush around the water area in search of enemy ship groups. But, for example, the deployment of a PL subunit on a wide front on possible paths of its movement made it possible to detect and report on the observed forces of the enemy if, for whatever reason, its immediate attack is impossible or irrational;

2. The implementation of mine productions. In essence, it is a form of struggle against enemy ships and ships;

3. The landing of reconnaissance and sabotage groups on the coast of the enemy;

4. Navigation-hydrographic and hydrometeorological support of military operations;

5. Transportation of cargo and personnel to the blocked points of the base;

6. Rescue crews of ships, ships and aircraft in distress;

7. Refueling (supply) of submarines at sea.

The creation of submarines to solve these problems in the USSR was engaged in a kind of "Snake Gorynych" consisting of three design teams:

1. Central Design Bureau "Rubin" - this design team was engaged in nuclear submarines-carriers of ballistic and cruise missiles, as well as diesel submarines. By the time of the collapse of the USSR, the products of this design bureau were represented by the Akun 941 project, the 949 project SSGN — the carriers of Granit anti-ship missiles, the Palnus type 877 diesel submarines and its export version, the Varshavyanka 636 project;

2. SPMBM "Malachite", the main profile of which were multi-purpose nuclear submarines, the top of which by the beginning of the 90-ies, no doubt, were the famous boats of the 971 "Pike-B" project;

3. The Lazurit Central Design Bureau is a “master of all hands”, starting with designing diesel submarines, then taking up submarines - carriers of cruise missiles, but giving up the position of Rubin here and finally creating very successful multipurpose boats with a titanium hull. The latter - the submarine of the 945A "Condor" project - became the "calling card" of this design bureau by the end of the 80's.

Thus, in the USSR at some stage they came to the following structure of a multi-purpose submarine fleet:

Submarines - carriers of anti-ship missiles (SSGN)



They were heavy (surface displacement - 14 700 t, which is not too different from the Ohio SSBNs with its 16 746 t), highly specialized submarine rocket carriers to attack the enemy’s fleet with heavy anti-ship missiles, including AUG. In fact, the SSGNs could effectively solve only one (albeit an important) task indicated in our list under No. XXUMX, “Destruction of enemy warships and vessels operating as part of formations and groups, as well as singly.” Of course, it could have been used to solve the remaining tasks of multi-purpose submarines, but due to its large size, relatively high noise level and worse, compared with less heavy boats of maneuverability, such use of the SSGN was not optimal;

Torpedo Nuclear Submarines (PLAT)



They were effective anti-submarine ships, a means of fighting on enemy communications, and, thanks to equipping them with long-range cruise missiles C-10 "Granat", launched from torpedo tubes, could strike land targets. Thus, the PCB effectively solved the other four major tasks of multi-purpose submarines. Of course, they could also take part in the defeat of enemy ship groups, but, not armed with heavy anti-ship missiles, were inferior here in the effectiveness of specialized SSGNs.

Diesel submarines (diesel submarines)



They represent, in essence, a cheap analogue of PLAT systems with reduced capabilities. Of course, in this case “cheap” does not mean “bad”, because while driving on electric motors, the diesel-electric submarines had much less noise than the PCB. And, although their modest size did not allow placing sonar complexes on them, equal in capabilities to those of their “elder atomic brothers”, they still had an advantage zone in which enemy nuclear submarines had not yet heard the diesel-electric submarines, and the diesel-electric submarines detected submarines. What, in fact, was the reason for some to call the very same “Varshavyanka” a “black hole”.

As is known, the Soviet Navy, with all its gigantic size and the well-deserved title of the second fleet of the world, still did not dominate the oceans, and to ensure safety in the “bastions” of the Barents and Okhotsk seas, the diesel-electric submarines were an excellent means: what about the Baltic and Black the seas, the use of nuclear submarines there was generally irrational. Thus, both in the USSR and today, the diesel-electric submarines, or perhaps non-nuclear submarines using air-independent power plants (VNEU), are an important component of submarine forces, both military and economic considerations.

But with nuclear boats everything is not so simple - the very separation of multi-purpose submarines on the SSGN and PLAT generated the heterogeneity of the ship staff, which could not be welcomed, but in addition, in the USSR, they also managed to improve the PLAT in two types - with a conventional hull (671РТМ / RTMK "Pike" and the project 971 "Pike-B"), and with titanium (project 945 / 945А "Condor"). Americans managed the only type of multi-purpose submarine "Los Angeles", while in the USSR at the same time created the boat three types of two different subclasses! And the design bureaus were already working hard on new projects: the Rubin designed the newest SSARC, Lazurit, a specialized boat for the submarine hunter, the Malachite, a multi-purpose submarine ...

All of the above, of course, entailed a desire to somehow unify the domestic multi-purpose submarines. The result of these efforts was the latest boat project 855 "Ash" from the creators of the famous "Pike-B" - SPMBM "Malachite".



In this ship, our designers made a very good attempt to tie together the "horse and quivering doe": in fact, it was about creating a single type of multi-purpose nuclear submarine, suitable for all tasks assigned to ships of this class of the Soviet Navy.

The result, I must say, turned out to be extremely interesting. Let's compare “Ash” and “Pike-B”: there is no doubt that “Ash” and, especially, “Ash-M” (head “Kazan” and the boats following it) have a much lower noise level - the one-and-a-half 885 project design, and improved shock absorbers that reduce vibrations and, therefore, the noise of a number of units, and (at Yasen-M), have a special reactor design that provides natural circulation of the coolant, which makes circulating pumps one of the strongest noise sources on an NPS, and the use of composite mater oyalov, and other innovations unknown to the general public. In general, one can argue about how the noise of "Ash" and "Virginia" correlate, but the fact that the domestic shipbuilding has taken a big step forward in terms of low noise relative to the ships of previous types is undoubtedly.

Hydroacoustic complex. Here "Ash" also significantly tugs forward - it is equipped with the latest and very powerful SJSC Irtysh-Amfora, which, among other things, takes significantly more space on the ship than the IGK-540 Skat-3, which equipped "Pikes -B. Strictly speaking, both of them and other GAK have large side area conformal antennas and towed antenna, and they probably occupy an approximately equal place, but we are talking about the main antenna, the traditional one installed in the bow section of the boat. So, if the "Pike-B" main antenna "Skat-3" is completely combined in the nose compartment with torpedo tubes,


This photo of the boat project 971 "Cheetah" clearly visible torpedo hatches


then at “Ash” the nose compartment is fully engaged under the “Irtysh Amphora” antenna, due to which the torpedo tubes had to be shifted to the center of the hull. That is, again, one can argue for a long time about the real effectiveness of SJSC Irtysh Amphora, but the fact is that he was given more volume and weight than Skatu-3 on Pike-B.



By the number of weapons, "Ash" also significantly exceeds the "Pike-B". The latter had 4 * 650 and 4 * 533-mm torpedo tubes, and the ammunition load was 12 * 650-mm and 28 * 533-mm torpedoes, and only 40 units. Ash has a slightly more modest torpedo armament: 10 * 533-mm TA with 30 torpedoes, but also has a launcher on the 32 rocket of the Caliber or Onyx family.

Thus, we see that “Malachite” managed to create a lower noise, more loaded with equipment, more armed, equally deep-water ship (maximum depth of immersion - 600 m for both “Ash” and for “Schuki-B”), at the price of ... total, approximately, 200-500 t of additional weight ("Ash" has a surface displacement of 8 600 t, "Pike-B" - 8 100-8 400 t) and a speed drop on the 2 node (31 nodes. against 33 nodes.). True, the volume of the body of "Ash" by more than 1 000 t more than "Pike-B" - 13 800 t against 12 770 t. How was it done? Apparently, the rejection of the two-body scheme in favor of the one-and-a-half package, which made it possible to greatly facilitate the corresponding structures, played a significant role.

Multipurpose nuclear submarines of the Yasen and Yasen-M type will undoubtedly become the landmark ships of our Navy, they are quite successful, but, alas, they are not suitable for the role of the prospect of a multipurpose nuclear submarine of the Russian Navy. And the reason here is quite simple - this is their price. The contract value of the construction of the head boat of the Yasen-M project was 47 billion rubles, which at that time was about 2011 billion dollars in 1,5 prices. As for serial ones, there is no clarity with them. Most likely the price for them was 41 billion (1,32 billion dollars), but, perhaps, still 32,8 billion rubles. (1,06 billion.) However, in any case, more than a billion in dollar equivalent. Such a price tag turned out to be too cool for our Navy, so ultimately the Yasene-M series was limited to all 6 hulls - along with the “ancestor” of the Yasen series - Severodvinsk, the 7 boats of this project will come into service.

And we need them, according to the most modest estimates, well, that's no less than 30.

Accordingly, we need a modern nuclear submarine of another project that will be able to perform the tasks listed at the beginning of the article in the most difficult conditions of the modern battlefield: the submarine capable of opposing the ships of the first fleets of the world. And, at the same time, the submarine, which at its cost will be significantly lower than the "Ash" and allow us to build it on this mass series (over 20 units). Obviously, without some victims can not do. What could we refuse in the project of a promising multi-purpose submarine? We divide all its qualities into 3 groups. The first is that in no case should we give up, the second is indicators that may allow some reduction with minimal consequences for the ship’s combat capability and, finally, the third group is what promising submarines can do without.

First, we will define what we should not completely abandon. This is low noise and the power of the hydroacoustic complex: our ship, without any doubt, should be as quiet as possible with the best HOOK we can put on it. Detecting the enemy, remaining invisible, or at least not allowing the enemy to do this is the key question of the survival of the submarine and the performance of its combat missions. If we can achieve parity with the Americans here - well, we can beat them - it’s just wonderful, but there can be no savings on these characteristics.

But with the speed of the ship and the depth of immersion, everything is not so clear. Yes, modern submarines are quite capable of developing very high speeds under water: “Pike-B” - up to 33 bonds, “Virginia” - 34 bonds., “Sivulf” - and even to 35 nodes, but how much such speeds are needed in “underwater the world? It is well known that at such speeds even the quietest submarines turn into “roaring cows” whose noise is heard through half of the ocean, and in combat situations the submarines will never walk at such speeds. For a submarine, not the “limiting” speed is much more important, but the maximum speed of the low-noise course, but in modern submarines, it usually does not exceed 20 nodes, and in 3-generation boats it was 6-11 nodes. At the same time, the lower speed of the ship is the lower cost of the power plant, smaller dimensions and cost savings for the ship as a whole.

But ... look at things from the other side. After all, high speed is provided by the increased power of the power plant, and the last is an unconditional benefit for the submarines. Indeed, in combat conditions, when a submarine is discovered and attacked by the enemy, the submarine can undertake an energetic maneuver, or a series of them, in order to evade, say, torpedoes attacking it. And here, the more powerful its power, the more energetic the maneuvering will be, no one has repealed the laws of physics. This, if you will allow, is the same as comparing any family car, which, for cheapness, was “stuck” in a weak motor with a sports car - yes, the first car would still accelerate if necessary to the maximum allowed speeds in the city and on the highway, but sports car speed acceleration, maneuver, leave him far behind.

The maximum speed of the "Ash" is 31 node, and we can say that in this parameter our submarines were in the penultimate place - lower than only in the British "Estyut" (29 knots.), And is it worth further reducing the speed? The answer to this question can only give professionals.

With the depth of immersion, too, everything is ambiguous. On the one hand, the deeper the submarine goes under water, the stronger its body should be, and this, of course, increases the cost of construction as a whole. But on the other hand, this, again, is a matter of the survival rate of a ship. The sea and ocean strata is a real “layer cake” of various currents and temperatures. Using this wisely, the underwater combat ship can get lost, chase the track, and, of course, the easier it is to do, the greater the depth available to the submariner. Today, our newest “Ash” and “Ash-M” have a working depth of 520 m, a maximum depth of 600 m, and this is much higher than the same indicators of the American Virginia (300 and 490 m) and the British “Estyut”, which has a working depth of immersion 300 m with an unknown limit. Does our boats have a tactical advantage? Apparently - yes, because the best American hunter for submarines, "Sivulf", had a working and maximum depth of immersion, similar to the "Ash" - 480 and 600 m.

As you know, the Americans in the Sivulf project came very close to the ideal of an underwater warrior - of course, at the technical level that existed at that time, but the cost of such submarines turned out to be prohibitive even for the United States. As a result, they switched to the construction of much more modest "Virginia", limiting them, including the depth of immersion. How justified was such a saving? Alas, the author of this article can not offer an answer to this question.

What we have left for sequestration? Alas, only weapons, but here you can really give up something: we are talking about launchers for the Caliber, Onyx and, probably, Zircon missiles.

Why is that?

The fact is that out of the five main tasks of multi-purpose submarines, only one (#3, “Destruction of enemy warships and ships operating as part of formations and groups, as well as singly”) requires a launcher for the anti-ship missiles, and even then, in fact, it is really needed only when the submarine acts against a large mix of warships, such as AUG or an amphibious group or of similar dimensions. But for anti-submarine warfare, and therefore, to cover the combat stability areas of the SSBN missiles are not needed - even if we assume that multi-purpose submarines need torpedoes, they can be used from torpedo tubes, a vertical launcher is not necessary. And also it is not necessary for actions against the merchant shipping of the enemy: if there is, say, an urgent need to disable the escort ship covering the transports, then, again, you do not need a volley of 32 missiles, which means, again, you can use as a launcher torpedo tubes. There are still actions "fleet against the coast", which submarines can lead only with the use of cruise missiles, but even here there is a strong feeling that the use of vertical launchers for these purposes is completely unjustified.

The fact is that the launch of rockets greatly unmasks a submarine - regardless of the launch method, we need very powerful engines or boosters in order to "pull out" the rocket from the unnatural sea element, transferring it to the air element. It’s impossible to make them quiet, so launching rockets under water is very distant. But this is not all - the fact is that the launch of the missiles is well monitored by early warning radar: we know well the important role attached to the control of air and surface spaces in the NATO countries. Thus, the launch of missiles in the zones of control of NATO fleets can greatly unmask a submarine, which, in the future, is fully capable of leading it to death.


Start of two anti-ship missiles "Onyx" from "Severodvinsk"


However, the attack of the enemy coast can be carried out in another way, which, as far as is known to the author, is not used today, but is quite realizable at today's technological level. Its essence is in the use of special containers for missiles equipped with a delayed launch system: that is, if the submarine drops such containers, it will move a considerable distance, and only after that will the missiles launch.

In other words, there seems to be nothing stopping our submarine from dropping containers with cruise missiles from torpedo tubes - this will most likely be much quieter than an underwater missile salvo. The containers themselves can be made extremely inconspicuous - while ensuring zero buoyancy, they will not rise to the surface of the sea, where they could be visually or otherwise detected by the patrol aviation, they do not make noise, that is, they are not controlled by passive sonar, and their small size and the general litter of the seas and oceans will well protect such containers from active sonar equipment. At the same time, missiles can be launched autonomously (that is, without a start signal) simply by using a timer located in the container 2-3 hours after “sowing” or even more - in this case, the submarine will have time to leave the launch area and detecting it will be much more difficult. This method is not suitable, of course, for hitting moving targets (unless pulling wires from dropped containers to a submarine to correct target designation), but it is quite suitable for destroying land-based stationary ones. Even if the currents take the containers to the side, the usual means of orientation (yes, the same “Glonass”) in combination with the fixed coordinates of the target will allow the rocket to correct the route for the resulting error. Which, moreover, can be “chosen” to a large extent at the stage of target designation — the dumping point of the containers is known, the speed and direction of the currents in the dumping area — too, what else do we need?

And so it turns out that from 5 “alpha tasks” of multi-purpose submarines, two are solved completely without the use of cruise missiles, and for the other two there is no need to install a vertical launch: and only one task (defeating AUG and its ilk) requires underwater missile carriers like the "Ash" and "Ash-M".

It should be understood that in the event of a military conflict, multi-purpose nuclear submarines of the Russian Navy will receive a variety of tasks - someone will guard SSBNs and conduct anti-submarine defense of water areas and ship formations, someone will be ordered to go into the ocean, attack enemy communications, someone strike at the enemy’s territory, and only part of the submarines will be deployed to counteract the operational groups of our “sworn friends”. Moreover, the installation of vertical start will be needed only to "anti-aircraft" forces.

But the fact is, we already have them. In vain, perhaps, we commissioned the "Ash" and build 6 ships of the modified project "Ash-M"? From the point of view of the author of this article, it makes sense to order another ship of this type, so that you can form 2 connections on 4 boats: one for the Northern and Pacific fleets, so each of them will receive their "anti-aircraft" connection (for the 4 division ship, of course, do not pull ... team? Division?).



As for the torpedo tubes, here, in the opinion of the author of this article, there is no need to save: yes, the additional apparatus, of course, costs and weighs, but, by and large, the benefits from the possibility of immediate use of weapons are outweighed by others. considerations. Therefore, we probably do not need to go to the level of "Virginia" and "Estuytov" with their 4-6 torpedo tubes, but to keep their number at the level of 10, like the Yasen-M, or 8, like the "Shuki-B "Or" Syvulf.

That, in fact, is exactly the way the outlook of our multi-purpose submarine looms. Minimum noise with the most powerful means of lighting underwater environment that are available to us. To approach the case in an unconventional way, do not limit yourself to pouring money into the design bureaus, but carefully study all that enthusiasts are offering, weed out what turns out to be husk, but “not splash out the baby with water” - it is quite possible that some practices contain a rational grain . In general, it is not necessary to dismiss work with “rationalization proposals” solely on the basis that it is not interesting for someone, or because 95 or even 99% of these rationalization proposals will be ineffective.

The boat, most likely, will have to be made single-hulled, as it involves serious benefits both in terms of the weight of the hull, and in terms of low noise. A water cannon is most likely to be used as a mover, although ... the author of this article does not understand why, in the presence of jet propulsion units installed on the Borey SSBN, the Yasen-M advanced series continues to be built with classic screws. It would be nice if our Kulibins found a way to provide the screw with the same low-noise capabilities as a water cannon - but then why do we build a Borei-A with water cannons? Nevertheless, it is possible to make an assumption (more similar to a conjecture) that the most effective propulsion system for a multi-purpose submarine will be a water cannon. Other characteristics look like this:

Displacement (surface / underwater) - 7 000 / 8 400, if it is less, it is great, but it is not necessary to artificially lower the displacement;

Speed ​​- 29-30 knots .;

Immersion depth (working / maximum) - 450 / 550 m;

Armament: 8 * 533 torpedo tubes, ammunition - 40 torpedoes, mines or rockets;

Crew - 70-80 people. Less is possible, but not necessary - the fact is that today it is really possible to “do-automate” a submarine to a crew of 30-40 people, perhaps less. But after all, the crew, in addition to direct control of the ship and its weapons systems, must be served on it, and, in the case of emergency situations, they must also fight for survivability. In such conditions, human hands are extremely important, which cannot be replaced by any automaton, and therefore excessive reduction in crew size is still undesirable. The situation could be different if the submarine were able to implement ... tank technologies, something like what was implemented in the project of the newest tank "Armata" - a small crew in a special, very well-protected capsule. If something like this could be implemented on a submarine, limiting the crew of 20-30 people, but placing their jobs in a separate capsule, which could leave the submarine that received critical damage and emerge ... but this is clearly not today's technology, and hardly whether even tomorrow.

And further. The most remarkable submarine will not succeed in modern combat unless it is armed with the newest and most effective weapons, as well as the enemy's disinformation means. Fortunately, the completely horrifying situation in the field of torpedo armament seems to be starting to straighten out, with the advent of the newest, and, God forbid, torpedoes “Physicist” and “Case” that are at a good world level - alas, it’s difficult to judge them seriously since most of their TTX secrets. But the questions with traps-simulators, designed to mislead the enemy about the real situation of the submarine, remain open - according to the author (though incomplete and fragmentary) of the author of this article, there are simply no effective simulators in service with the Russian Navy. If this is actually the case, then this situation is completely intolerable and should be corrected as soon as possible. To build nuclear powered submarines with crews for a hundred people, worth a billion dollars or more, but not to provide them with the means of setting up "underwater interference" is not even a mistake, it is a state crime.
293 comments
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  1. -41
    14 January 2019 06: 12
    the nuclear triad is, in essence, the most important (and today - the only) the guarantor of the existence of our country.


    If you have overslept for the last 8 years in a coma, then yes, then for you it may be the only one. The quality of the latest Russian weapons sped far ahead of the US, not to mention the twice-superior combat readiness of our armed forces
    1. +35
      14 January 2019 06: 20
      Quote: Hypersound
      The quality of the latest Russian weapons sped far ahead of the US, not to mention the twice-superior combat readiness of our armed forces

      Have you found hats?
      1. +11
        14 January 2019 06: 52
        Strange commentary. Tomahawk mattresses are almost 30 years old, and its analogue Caliber has just recently appeared in our country! Therefore, about "galloping away" sounds at least ridiculous!
        1. +3
          14 January 2019 07: 30
          to put it mildly, not quite an analogue of TTX read the big difference
        2. +12
          14 January 2019 08: 58
          Quote: Magic Archer
          A strange comment. Tomahawk's mattresses are almost 30 years old, and its counterpart Caliber has only recently appeared in our place!

          The analogue of the Tomahawk was the S-10 Granat, which was put into service back in 1984. (subsonic cruise missile with a flight range of 2 km). Caliber is an Advanced Garnet
          1. +4
            14 January 2019 10: 38
            Caliber and X-101 became the analogue in accuracy of the Tomogavka with a non-nuclear warhead in 2014 and beyond .... for comparison, the Americans applied the same thing in the 90s in Iraq .... the difference in the years of the beginning of GPS and Glonnas does not play here either the last role, like the level of our electronics. And the Pomegranate and the X-55 were .... analogue of Topra with JBCh. But the tasks of such systems are different and for NFC + or - 100 / 200m is not a miss.
          2. +3
            14 January 2019 17: 37
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The analogue of the Tomahawk was the S-10 Granat, which was put into service back in 1984.

            she was
            due to the fact that "Tom" originally had a number of non-nuclear options
            1. 0
              17 January 2019 05: 33
              Quote: mina024
              due to the fact that "Tom" originally had a number of non-nuclear options


              Since the argument is about technology, the warhead has nothing to do with it. The fact is that the analogue was just the Soviet military, did not consider it necessary to have such a missile in its usual form, but if they counted, then there is no doubt that they would.
          3. +1
            17 January 2019 05: 28
            Andrey, the article could be made very short: we just need a boat that continues the wonderful series 671/971, that's the whole story. wink
            We refuse from missile boats in the future, or, as an option, do one project for strategic missiles and the Kyrgyz Republic
        3. -3
          14 January 2019 09: 00
          And do not pay attention: not only as liberal shkolota indulges.
        4. +4
          14 January 2019 09: 03
          actually C10-GRANATE, too, about 40 years ago was an analogue of an ax
          1. jjj
            0
            14 January 2019 10: 59
            And in the mid-nineties of the last century, "Club" was already sold abroad
            1. 0
              14 January 2019 15: 07
              What are you? And 2 Warsaw women left Club-S in Algeria and today what year
            2. 0
              14 January 2019 15: 28
              it turns out C10 was born from him for export Club and after Caliber made
        5. -4
          14 January 2019 13: 44
          Quote: Magic Archer
          Strange commentary. Tomahawk mattresses are almost 30 years old, and its analogue Caliber has just recently appeared in our country! Therefore, about "galloping away" sounds at least ridiculous!

          Rather, almost 40. "Tomahawk" is already noticeably outdated, in contrast to "Caliber". So "Caliber" will be better. Just compare the performance characteristics.
          1. +2
            14 January 2019 16: 26
            You would also compare the number of Tomahawks and Caliber, ready for immediate launch, then you would definitely cry.
            1. 0
              14 January 2019 18: 23
              they would have burst into tears.

              What for? It is clear that for so many years, "Tomahawks" can be stamped in thousands, which was done.
      2. +8
        14 January 2019 07: 22
        Quote: Aerodrome
        Have you found hats?

        oga)))) 25 million "high-tech" workers in China))))
      3. -14
        14 January 2019 10: 53
        Keep sleeping in parallel reality
    2. -3
      14 January 2019 08: 34
      the fleet will receive 7 boats of this project.
      And we need them, according to the most modest estimates, well, that's no less than 30.

      Recently there was news that the Russian Navy will receive four Poseidon submarine-carrying submarines. Each submarine will carry at least eight underwater drones. Is the commissioning of underwater unmanned objects (Poseidon, of course, only one of the types), a New solution in the oceanic confrontation.
      PS Thirty, only "Ash", this is even for your gigantomania, too hi wink
      1. +16
        14 January 2019 08: 56
        Quote: Chertt
        Recently, there was news that the Russian Navy will receive four Poseidon submarines.

        In short - a madhouse
        Quote: Chertt
        Each submarine will carry at least eight underwater drones.

        Why, if a torpedo with a nuclear engine swims to the same USA from our shores?
        Quote: Chertt
        Thirty, only "Ash", this is even for your gigantomania, too much

        Thirty nuclear submarines is a minimum; in reality, they need more. Unless, of course, you generally expect to fight, and not show the fleet in parades. By the way, today they are formally part of the 28 fleet
        1. +1
          14 January 2019 09: 11
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          In short - a madhouse

          Capacitively))
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Why, if a torpedo with a nuclear engine swims to the same USA from our shores?

          Probably, then, for what missile bombers are being built, although the CD can hit almost any target from the airspace of Russia. Plus Poseidon is just one type of drone.
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Unless, of course, you generally expect to fight, and not show the fleet

          And this, as they say, is a question of questions.
          1. +9
            14 January 2019 09: 32
            Quote: Chertt
            Probably, then, what are the rocket-carrier bombers building for, although the Kyrgyz Republic can hit almost any target from the airspace of Russia

            Can not. X-101 has a range of about 5 500 km
        2. +5
          14 January 2019 12: 37
          Good afternoon, colleague, article plus, a lot of useful information and clever thoughts, BUT I have a question. with whom exactly are you going to fight? what will this conflict look like?

          Very dear to me, dear Kokovtsev (I will bring his thought from memory), while still a minister, he repeatedly expressed himself like: give me a priority political goal - indicate how, why and why you will solve it by military means - explain why such a solution is optimal - and get money for new battleships
          1. +3
            15 January 2019 09: 48
            Very dear to me, dear Kokovtsev (I will bring his thought from memory), while still a minister, he repeatedly expressed himself like: give me a priority political goal - indicate how, why and why you will solve it by military means - explain why such a solution is optimal - and get money for new battleships

            Vladimir Nikolayevich, with all due respect to him, often made such statements, for which he was not at all responsible. In Rediger's memoirs, there is a rewarding episode when Kokovtsov, having visited the Far East and got acquainted with the poor state of the Vladivostok fortress (greetings considering it impregnable :)), said that this was unacceptable and even then he never refused the defense ministry appropriations. And here the Minister of War (it seems, at that moment already) was stuck, since the strengthening of Vladivostok, without carrying out a number of measures (creating mob reserves, building the Amur road and much more), was absolutely pointless and even harmful, since squandering already small resources, and Rediger repeatedly spoke about this at meetings. Moreover, there was no urgent need for him, after settling disputed issues with Japan. Despite the fact that, in fact, any request from the military to allocate funds, Kokovtsev always met with hostility and tried, as far as possible, to cut back. But, as you see, on occasion he did not give up the opportunity to promote himself as a statesman standing on guard of defense, although this had not the slightest relation to reality.
            1. -5
              15 January 2019 15: 34
              A colleague, how to say, Kokovtsev always believed that August 1914 almost certainly = October 1917, so he VERY didn't want war and believed that large-scale preparation for it = its provocation. And then a new war with the Japanese was considered idiocy by everyone except for a couple of hawks in the "Tsushima Department"

              Remember Clausewitz - war is a way to achieve a specific political goal with a special form of means. WHAT political goal was to be achieved, almost at the risk of getting October 1917?

              Therefore, I have a simple question for the Great Namesake: for the sake of war with whom does Russia need 30 multipurpose nuclear submarines? And most importantly, why the hell to organize this war? To slap the conditional "Saakashvili" - you need a good FA. To protect the interests of Russia and its friends in the conditional Syria - AUG. And 30 multipurpose nuclear submarines are only against NATO, but in the last war in the history of mankind they will not affect the final result.
              1. +3
                15 January 2019 19: 08
                Kokovtsev always considered

                Excuse me, did he tell you about this?
                It’s just that I have his memories in paper, and I don’t remember such a thing (although I read it a long time ago, maybe I forgot it.)
                And then a new war with the Japanese was considered idiocy by everyone except for a couple of hawks in the Tsushima Department.

                And you, of course, can name their names?
                I just don’t know such people.
                Remember Clausewitz - war is a way to achieve a specific political goal with a special form of means. WHAT political goal was to be achieved, almost at the risk of getting October 1917?

                Everything is very simple here. About twenty years later, the situation repeated itself. Germany again presented the bill to the heirs of the Entente, and they were bankrupt. Stalin, by the way, was ready to enter into an alliance against Germany, and the fact that they had an idiocy to refuse ...
                So, Nikolai Alexandrovich, although he was not seven spans in his forehead, he should not be considered an idiot either. And he didn’t want to stay alone with his cousin Willy when he endured the French. Moreover, tsarist Russia is never the Stalinist USSR and it simply could not stand it.
                That is, our participation in the Entente, a thing, alas, is as inevitable as it is necessary. Another thing is that everything that is possible in preparing the war in the Republic of Ingushetia was done through one place ...
                Now about the dreadnought. Let's imagine that they did not begin to build ... that's all. That the army will have more rifles, guns, machine guns? oh my god! Sukhomlinov was firmly convinced that everything was in abundance. But in the Baltic there are only four outdated battleships, against which the Germans can put up twenty! At the same time, without touching, at the same time, their latest ships they need to confront England. And in the 1915 year, (when it became clear that the Franks had survived), they, along with the land hunters, break open the defense of the marquise puddles and destroy our then capital and the largest industrial area at the same time.
                As for the 30 nuclear submarine now ... maybe not 30, but let's say 20 ... I don’t know how much, this is a question for military analysts. as far as I understand, now their 28. But the Army and Navy are not necessarily built for war. Rather they are being built so that it did not happen.
                Something like that.
                1. +1
                  15 January 2019 19: 23
                  Quote: Senior Sailor
                  against which the Germans can put such twenty

                  Strictly speaking, 10. "Kaisers" and "Wittelsbachs" were practically not used at the beginning of the war, and then they were completely withdrawn from the active fleet, put on a joke with reduced crews or even transferred to the status of floating barracks, prisons, submarine bases and other illusions by 1914, the Germans no longer had them at their expense, their combat value against classmates tended to zero.
        3. 0
          14 January 2019 17: 40
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Thirty nuclear submarines is a minimum; in reality, they need more.

          with what you drew in the article, this is unrealistic ...

          by the way, the 949A in a more or less normal technical condition and with a trained crew successfully "fights" during the anti-submarine exercises not only 971 (in which he personally participated), but also 877;)
          in terms of noise, the difference with 971 is minimal, but in terms of maneuverability there is practically no difference
          1. +2
            14 January 2019 17: 50
            Quote: mina024
            with what you drew in the article, this is unrealistic ...

            Everything may be, I do not insist on my point of view, as the only correct
            Quote: mina024
            by the way, the 949A in a more or less normal technical condition and with a trained crew successfully "fights" during the anti-submarine exercises not only 971 (in which he personally participated), but also 877;)

            From other submarine officers - other information
          2. +1
            14 January 2019 18: 40
            949A was Antei-Kursk including?
            1. 0
              14 January 2019 20: 13
              Quote: Charik
              949A was Antei-Kursk including?

              Exactly
        4. +2
          14 January 2019 20: 38
          By the way, it seems to me alone that "Poseidon" flying with great speed to the shores of the United States will make noise throughout the Atlantic and somewhere in the middle will be shot by PLRK from the same Berks, or am I wrong?
          1. +2
            15 January 2019 02: 50
            At that depth (1000 m) nothing will be shot. There are no means of destruction, moreover, we do not. According to open data, torpedoes and depth charges were made at the rate of 500 m in depth. Perhaps up to 800. but vryatli deeper. It was stupidly unnecessary, there were no targets, and the cost of such ammunition will be significantly higher, and taking into account the pressure and density of the water, they must also destroy the Poseidons with a direct hit, for a guarantee.
            Of course there will be noise, but in the open seas there are many different and multidirectional currents, while they also have different densities and salinity of the water. which gives the same refraction effect as atmospheric horizons (the principle of operation of the HROF), and therefore it is very difficult to predict how the sound will propagate. Our NISs in the seas and oceans work on this, and therefore not only this research was carried out, but also the mapping of the seabed was done, which is also important for the work of such drones.
      2. +5
        14 January 2019 09: 56
        Quote: Chertt
        PS Thirty, only "Ash", this is even for your gigantomania, too

        I’m not a submariner, BUT my very close relative (the last position seems to be a start-up on the nuclear submarines) is not strange, he calls about the same figure for the needs of new multipurpose boats ************* 25 at least in his opinion. Just two years ago I watched an interview honestly I don’t remember my last name and position, but he called serious shoulder straps a figure of 20 units only for KSF
    3. +17
      14 January 2019 08: 41
      Quote: Hypersound
      If you have slept in recent years 8 in a coma, then yes, then for you it may be the only

      Egor, take off your pink glasses, they don’t suit you
      Quote: Hypersound
      The quality of the latest Russian weapons sped far ahead of the US, not to mention the twice-superior combat readiness of our armed forces

      What? :))))))) Well, tell me in all the chilling details about how the T-72Б3 totally outperform the Abrams :)))) Or how does the BTR-82 outperform Bradley, etc.
      In general, in a nutshell, we surpass the United States only in certain types of weapons, which in our troops either do not exist at all ("Armata") or are negligible (Su-35). And about combat readiness ... Considering that ALL of our ground forces number 280 thousand people, and the US Marine Corps alone has 182 thousand people. I would not get excited. Bo Americans can deploy their KMP in the direction they need in 100% of the size, but we can not, since our 280 thousand - for the entire Russian Federation. For reference, during the Second World War, we used no more than 65-70% of the ground forces against the foshysts, the rest guarded other borders. But the United States also has 470 thousand in the ground forces.
      In Soviet times, we had cadre divisions, that is, officers without soldiers served, but in case of war they would be filled with storage tanks. Today we do not have this officer reserve, and after the use of ground forces we are left with nothing. That is, today, our army certainly steers, but not in a global conflict.
      1. +6
        14 January 2019 08: 58
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Egor, take off your pink glasses, they don’t suit you

        Andrei hi Thank you for the article. Very interesting as always. Yegor just trolls in my opinion. I am interested in your opinion on the question of the prohibitive timing of the modernization of the PLAC project 971. Flotprom writes that as of December 2018, the deadline for the delivery of the Leopard from Zvezdochka remains unknown.
        https://flotprom.ru/2018/318800/
        Moreover, most of the project 971 multipurpose boats have collapsed and require repair. As far as I know, only two "Gepard" and "Kuzbass" are in service.
        1. +7
          14 January 2019 09: 29
          Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
          I am interested in your opinion on the deadlines for modernization of the 971 PLC project.

          there, in fact, they are building a new boat in the old hull, while it seems like they also extend the resource for 10 years from the existing one. At first they wanted to modernize 6 boats, then 4, today .... I don’t know.
          Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
          As far as I know, only two "Gepard" and "Kuzbass" are in service.

          Kind of like "Tiger" and "Panther". Well, "Vepr" and "Wolf", hopefully, will come out of repair
      2. +14
        14 January 2019 09: 47
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        In Soviet times, we had cadre divisions, that is, officers without soldiers served, but in case of war they would be filled with storage tanks. Today we do not have this officer reserve, and after the use of ground forces we are left with nothing.
        These cadre divisions in practice turned into an element of army degradation and strangulation of the economy. Officers without personnel, yeah. Who will volunteer to serve there? Obviously not a man who set the goal of life to become a military officer and dreaming of growth to general epaulettes. They sent there who got there (nobody will give the shot from the combat unit of a normal officer). God knows what they were doing there, but the combat readiness was not explicitly raised. It’s good if you regularly do THAT stored equipment and don’t drink a lot. Things were not bad in the arsenals or at the equipment storage bases — civilians and engineers who at least served there, who did not dream of dashing attacks on Berlin and Paris — serviced and repaired their slowly stored equipment. A little bit of tyri, but generally tolerant. And here are the personnel divisions, where there are a set of officers, and the personnel according to staff B or G. ... Hazing and a mess, and for officers - hopelessness. And there were more than half of such units in the USSR Armed Forces. Therefore, when it was fastened, it turned out that there was nobody to send to Chechnya - not a single whole part. Only summary. From different divisions jagged. The result is known (among other jambs in the first Chechen one).
        1. +7
          14 January 2019 09: 59
          Quote: Alex_59
          These cadre divisions in practice turned into an element of army degradation and strangulation of the economy

          Well, the maintenance of such officers will not kill the economy, and yes, the thing is problematic.
          Quote: Alex_59
          And there were more than half of such units in the USSR Armed Forces.

          I am not opposed to the Ogarkov reforms, but in this case I have to take the consequence - when the 280 thousand ground troops end (and in a global conflict, alas, this will happen very quickly) we will not have an army and there will be nowhere to take it from
          1. +8
            14 January 2019 10: 22
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Well, the maintenance of such officers will not kill the economy, and yes, the thing is problematic.
            Well, how do you say, Andrew. You are an economist if I remember correctly. 150 divisions, of which about 70% are personnel B and G. Total 105 divisions are frames. In the division of officer posts about 16% of the state. The MSD staff in the 80 years is about 12 000 people. Total 1800 officers per division. In reality, of course, there was less, well, let 1200. 1000x105 = 125 000 a person sits there and requires a cash allowance and the statewide provision in the form of food and free travel for himself and family members once a year to Anapa. And the locations require heating, water supply, communications, electricity, supplies. And in the event of war, all this army on the old worn T-55 and T-62 something should go to defend with untrained personnel. I do not know...
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            when 280 thousand ground forces end (and in a global conflict, alas, this will happen very quickly)
            And he will, such a conflict? Something tells me that watering us will not be the way the fascists did. Nobody wants to be in the place of these fascists, even if the victory will be theirs. We are already being hollowed right today, but tank hordes are not visible.

            However, it went offtopic)
            1. +9
              14 January 2019 10: 37
              Quote: Alex_59
              Well, how do you say, Andrew. You are an economist if I remember correctly. 150 divisions, of which about 70% personnel V and G.

              I agree, but this is the USSR, and why do we need so much? We could do with fewer 20-25 divisions.
              Quote: Alex_59
              And he will, such a conflict?

              It depends on how ready we are for him :))))
              Quote: Alex_59
              We are already being hollowed right today, but tank hordes are not visible.

              well, but they have a national guard :)))))
        2. +6
          14 January 2019 11: 08
          By and large, the cadre divisions had to be deployed to full states once every two to three years, which was originally done through the notorious mabuta. After this turned into a formality, the meaning in the cropped parts fell away unfortunately. At the moment, there is no trained reserve in the RF Armed Forces from the word at all. Even the combined units as in the first Chechen have nothing to create from
          1. +3
            14 January 2019 12: 33
            Quote: Nehist
            At the moment, there is no trained reserve in the RF Armed Forces from the word at all.

            Oh, I was like at a training camp, it was something indescribable (very, very obscene), the feeling that people arrived at the resort on the principle of All inclusive in Turkey or in Egypt, and did not arrive for retraining in the troops ...
          2. +3
            14 January 2019 14: 56
            Quote: Nehist
            By and large, the cadre divisions had to be deployed to full states once every two to three years, which was originally done through the notorious mabuta.

            Pfff ... all this already happened - in the 30s of the last century. In the unforgettable territorial divisions created on the principle of "permanent staff and conscripts"It was experimentally found that during the time between the annual training camp, the recruited officer loses all skills in handling weapons and equipment, and the command personnel during the same time loses command skills (the chief of staff of a regiment of one of the best terrorist divisions during the check at the beginning of the training session could not set the task battalion) And it takes a couple of months to restore it all to the point of being rated "satisfactory."
            1. 0
              14 January 2019 15: 30
              The Finns in the 30s quite succeeded. Just territorial or cropped does not mean cheap.
              1. +3
                14 January 2019 15: 40
                Quote: strannik1985
                The Finns in the 30s quite succeeded. Just territorial or cropped does not mean cheap.

                The Germans did the best - a hundred thousandth "army of commanders". smile
                But in our time, a normal manned division with all the regular fees and exercises for the price will come out a little cheaper than the personnel one.
                1. +2
                  14 January 2019 16: 12
                  Not a pure example, the Reichswehr ended in 1933, after the peacetime army grew by leaps and bounds, and how the military budget grew ...
                  And the Finns had unscheduled exercises in the summer of 1939, in the fall, covert and official mobilization, the armed forces grew from 36 thousand to 337 thousand, count 9 times.
                  1. +1
                    14 January 2019 17: 19
                    Quote: strannik1985
                    Not a pure example, the Reichswehr ended in 1933, after the peacetime army grew by leaps and bounds

                    A pure example in the sense that the Reichswehr was the most cadre army in peacetime, in which the training of non-commissioned officers was carried out according to the officer's programs, and the training of privates (for long periods) was carried out according to the non-commissioned officer. Plus, in violation of Versailles, "short-term privates" were passed through the Reichswehr to create a trained mob-reserve for the future Wehrmacht. As a result, in a year from the Reichswehr with its 100 people. the Wehrmacht turned out with 000 people. and 500 divisions ..
                    Von Sect said from the very beginning that the Reichswehr is the core of the future army.
                    1. 0
                      14 January 2019 20: 10
                      The fighting capacity of the Wehrmacht for 1936 is a big question.
                      1. +1
                        15 January 2019 18: 50
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        The fighting capacity of the Wehrmacht for 1936 is a big question.

                        Like the Finnish army. wink
                        Because, when the game of giveaways of the first months was over, the Finnish defense crumbled in a week. When 3-4 bunkers with machine guns hold an entire division - this speaks not so much about the combat readiness of the defenders, but about the fighting qualities of the advancing ones. And north of Ladoga, Soviet commanders generally have the impression that they only got into the army - the Finns cut the division in two for two days, building a blockage on the only road in direct visibility from the rifle regiment and artillery regiment of the division, and all the commanders of the Red Army remain passive observers.
                      2. 0
                        16 January 2019 07: 14
                        Nevertheless, the entry of troops into the Rhine DMZ and a full-fledged war are two different things, and the giveaway on KarPereshcheyka ended in the offensive of 239 Soviet infantry battalions against 80 Finnish infantry battalions. The Finns prepared the army well, but the weapons and ammunition for an intense war were no longer pulled, and the bet on help from other countries did not justify itself.
      3. -15
        14 January 2019 10: 55
        This is you shoot. US forces in colossal decline after the same 90s
        1. +2
          14 January 2019 16: 44
          And they said above that Yegor is so trolling, and he turns out to be in full earnest.
      4. BAI
        -3
        14 January 2019 15: 49
        In general, in short, we surpass the United States only in certain types of weapons, which we have in our troops or not at all ("Armata") or negligible (Su-35).

        Controversial statement. Poplars with Yars and S-300 (S-400), which joined them, where will we go? They are also not in the troops?
        1. +2
          14 January 2019 15: 58
          Quote: BAI
          Controversial statement.

          Well let's argue
          Quote: BAI
          Poplars with Yars

          Therefore, they lose outrightly to the Tridents, and they are the strategic nuclear forces, but it was all about conventional weapons
          Quote: BAI
          and those who joined them C-300 (C-400) where shall we go?

          I agree with C-300 / 400 that we have them in commodity quantities.
          1. BAI
            0
            14 January 2019 16: 24
            Therefore, they lose outrightly to the Tridents, and they are the strategic nuclear forces, but it was all about conventional weapons

            Trident - submarine rocket. Poplar (Yars) is a mobile ground complex. We compare the elephant with a whale? The trident must be compared with Blue.
            It's still about the fact that we have weapons models that are superior similar US samples and at the same time are in service in sufficient quantities.
            1. +1
              14 January 2019 17: 31
              Quote: BAI
              Trident - submarine rocket. Poplar (Yars) is a mobile ground complex. We compare the elephant with a whale?

              No, we compare the strategic nuclear forces and strategic nuclear forces, the Americans prefer to place their nuclear weapons on submarines. And solid rockets are compared, in which we have no advantage. And if you want to compare ground complexes, it’s not a question - Yars and poplars lose to both our Satan and the US peacekeeper
              Quote: BAI
              It’s all the same that we have weapons models that are superior to similar US models

              And what kind of US weapons did you see similar to Topol and Yars? :)))) There is no direct analog :))))
              1. 0
                15 January 2019 09: 31
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                And if you want to compare ground complexes, it’s not a question - Yars and poplars lose to both our Satan and the US peacekeeper

                Andrey, there is no need to compare Yarsy with the "peacemaker", such a missile does not exist, LGM-118 has been removed from service. A comparison with Minuteman III would be fair, and such a comparison would not reveal a clear leader.
      5. +10
        14 January 2019 20: 43
        Right now, a couple of thousands of experts will say that our marines on 3 armored personnel carriers are giving this corps, and the Su-24 squadron with the Super-Crane will fly over the 6th fleet and they will all write reports. Naive half the country that pasta does not know how to shoot ....
        1. +2
          14 January 2019 22: 09
          That's right, only on Su-24 there should be Superhibiny)))
          1. +3
            15 January 2019 13: 19
            I troll)) Sometimes, reading the comments of cheers (not to be confused with just patriots), I want to listen to this person live! Who is this type? Troll, fool, pan-and-headed, grief from the mind, a fan of Solovyov (Shapiro), mishandled Cossack, in short, what am I talking about?)))
    4. +12
      14 January 2019 11: 10
      How was combat readiness measured? A year ago, I resigned from the 27th omsbr, where combat readiness is at the level of "war" in kindergarten.
      1. -2
        14 January 2019 17: 04
        or maybe they kept you in a kindergarten so that later you tell tales to children
  2. +7
    14 January 2019 06: 37
    Good article, put a plus! hi
    I especially liked that the author touched upon the topic of torpedo weapons and systems of "underwater jamming". It is a pity that the author did not touch upon the topic of the capabilities of fire control systems and the possibility of firing several guided torpedoes at several targets, as well as the issues of equipping submarines with unmanned underwater vehicles and air defense systems.
    1. +4
      14 January 2019 09: 28
      Quote: Wildcat
      the author did not touch on the possibility of firing multiple guided torpedoes at several targets

      The author himself said that most of the information on torpedo weapons is closed and is not known to him.
      Quote: Wildcat
      issues of equipping submarines with uninhabited underwater vehicles

      And here a new task is already being added, the price is rising, and the nuclear submarine from a large series of cheap boats is turning into the same Ashen.
      The topic is interesting, respect to the author.
      1. +5
        14 January 2019 15: 19
        Quote: alma
        Quote: Wildcat
        the author did not touch on the possibility of firing multiple guided torpedoes at several targets

        The author himself said that most of the information on torpedo weapons is closed and is not known to him.
        Quote: Wildcat
        issues of equipping submarines with uninhabited underwater vehicles

        And here a new task is already being added, the price is rising, and the nuclear submarine from a large series of cheap boats is turning into the same Ashen.
        The topic is interesting, respect to the author.


        1. The topic of torpedo armament, firing multiple torpedoes and MSAs was discussed several times, even here. Apparently this is a big problem (dear rudolff with associates hi also noted in the comments).
        “The main conclusion from this is the possibility of performing covert torpedo attacks with modern foreign torpedoes from long ranges (over 20-30 km).
        Long-range shooting is impossible without effective remote control (TU).
        In foreign torpedo construction, the task of creating an effective and reliable remote control was solved in the late 60s with the creation of a tubular boat reel TU, which ensured high reliability, a significant reduction in restrictions on maneuvering of submarines with TU, multi-torpedo salvos with TU. "
        "Modern western hose telecontrol systems have high reliability and practically do not impose restrictions on the maneuvering of submarines. To prevent the telecontrol wire from getting into the propellers, on many foreign diesel-electric submarines, protective cables are stretched on the aft rudders.
        "If in the west a torpedo is a high-precision complex for covertly engaging targets from a long distance, then we still have torpedoes as a melee weapon."
        The effective firing distances of western torpedoes are approximately 2 / 3 telecontrol wire lengths. Taking into account 50 – 60 km on torpedo coils, common to modern Western torpedoes, effective distances are obtained up to 30 – 40 km.
        At the same time, the effectiveness of domestic torpedoes, even with remote control at distances of more than 10 km, is sharply reduced due to low remote control performance characteristics and low accuracy of outdated control devices.
        Some experts argue that the submarine detection distances are allegedly small and therefore "large effective distances are not needed." One cannot agree with this. Even in a collision at the "dagger range", in the process of maneuvering during the battle, it is very likely that the distance between submarines will increase (and the US Navy's submarines specially worked out the "gap gap" with care for the effective salvo ranges of our torpedoes).
        https://topwar.ru/75895-ob-oblike-sovremennyh-torped-podvodnyh-lodok.html

        "TT has two spinning coils - one in the torpedo, the other remains on the carrier, providing by its bleeding the submarine maneuver, that is, the wire itself is practically motionless relative to the water. A towed boat reel (BLK), in case of use," falls out "together with the torpedo outward and hangs on cable-rope (commensurate with the length of the submarine.) Due to the impact of the incoming flow, the BLK makes oscillatory movements that significantly reduce the reliability of telecontrol, limit the submarine in speed and maneuver, and, most importantly, make it impossible to use more than one telecontrolled torpedo in a salvo. "
        "The telecontrol complex of the new torpedo TEST-71 repeated all the shortcomings of TEST-68. But what can we say about TEST-71, if the erroneous decisions of the Dolphin are still present in the" newest "TE-2 (remotely controlled electric universal homing torpedo) and UGST ( universal deep-sea homing torpedo).
        Nevertheless, on diesel submarines, remote-controlled torpedoes were mastered quite well, which was greatly facilitated by the Knot combat information management system (CICS). Moreover, tactical techniques were developed that ensured high efficiency in dueling situations.
        The idea was introduced that the atomic submarine, which had a high speed, did not need telecontrol, only a torpedo complex in the form of an "machine gun" was needed, capable of literally filling the sea with torpedoes. How much would such a consumption of ammunition cost, as well as a submarine of increased displacement, no one thought: the country is rich, if we demand it, it will. But the main thing is not this, but the fact that having abandoned telecontrol on the nuclear submarine, we agreed to reduce the effective firing distances to "pistol" - obviously less than that of the enemy. In addition, the noise immunity of a salvo of torpedoes of the USSR Navy against foreign ones using SGPD was deliberately not ensured in most tactical situations. In the event of a third world war without the use of nuclear weapons, we faced extremely heavy losses in underwater duels without the possibility of inflicting any serious damage on the enemy. "
        https://topwar.ru/60441-antikvarnyy-boezapas.html

        "rudolff (rudolff) 31 October 2018 12:58
        Shipments started? UGST "Physicist-1" entered service with the Russian Navy
        Look at the tail section for the telecontrol torpedo coil. "
        https://topwar.ru/149108-postavki-nachalis-ugst-fizik-1-postupil-na-vooruzhenie-vmf-rf.html#comment-id-8729024

        2. "Issues of equipping submarines with unmanned underwater vehicles and air defense equipment" and their price. I really hope that there is an understanding that in the event of a big mess, our submarines will have to act against more numerous submarines, surface ships and air enemies and, probably, deal with them simultaneously.
        To paraphrase the author, "to build nuclear submarines with crews under a hundred people, worth a billion dollars or more, but not providing them with" adequate weapons to defeat the enemy "is not even a mistake, it is a state crime."
        hi
  3. +4
    14 January 2019 07: 10
    Quote: Aerodrome
    Have you found hats?


    Moreover, since the collapse of the USSR, there are so many different cuts, colors and belongings!

    The actions of the Ministry of Defense to change clothes looks consonant with the "Pelmeni" vyskpzyvaniye: "Scientifically substantiated the introduction of the permission of alcohol in the blood and immediately began to sing at one point, proving the erroneousness of the previously made decision!

    Directly one in one about the constant changes of uniforms!
  4. +3
    14 January 2019 07: 12
    I read the article and realized one thing, as there were three types of nuclear submarines, it will be so. Perhaps you need to find the right ratio between them and their ratio in the divisions? And unfortunately, the cost of new equipment and weapons will only grow, the main thing is that efficiency would increase substantially with cost.
    Thanks Andrew for the article.
    1. +2
      14 January 2019 09: 10
      Andrei, of course, well done: how he justified the purpose, contents and justification of the corvette, he did the same with the submarine.
      Thank you.
    2. +6
      14 January 2019 09: 35
      Quote: jonht
      Thanks Andrew for the article.

      Always please, glad I liked it!
      Quote: jonht
      I read the article and realized one thing, as there were three types of nuclear submarines, it will be so.

      Alas, it is. We can’t do without non-nuclear submarines, we won’t cut ash trees on needles, but we’ll also build them in a large series - the navel will untie. So the three types are irrelevant for us, but in reality there will be even more of them, because in the coming years 40 we will have in service both 636.3, 677 and newer non-nuclear boats.
      1. +3
        14 January 2019 10: 31
        As for diesel-electric submarines, if everything works out, there will be good Kalina, and they really will also have verticals. Perhaps, if verticals start to be installed in large quantities, then the price of both the installations themselves and the missiles will significantly decrease. And at the expense of the containers, then again it is easier to release them to the top, even to simply pull them out hydraulically, than through torpedo tubes, they should be of very large caliber.
  5. +9
    14 January 2019 07: 37
    It should be understood that in the event of a military conflict, multi-purpose nuclear submarines of the Russian Navy will receive a variety of tasks. - someone will guard the SSBN and conduct anti-submarine defense of water areas and ship formations, someone will receive an order to go into the ocean, attack enemy communications, someone to strike at enemy territory, and only part of the submarines will be deployed to counteract the operational groups of our "sworn friends».
    Probably, speaking of the nuclear submarine and the fleet of Russia in general, it is necessary to take into account the peculiarities of our geographical environment, in general, the geopolitical factor. The "Marquis puddle", the Black Sea, is completely blocked, which already happened in the First and Second World Wars. It is no secret that the blocking of our Northern and Pacific Fleet, which was developed by NATO against the Soviet fleet, is incomparably more powerful than modern capitalist Russia can afford. The total domination of the US and NATO surface fleet in the Atlantic, as well as in the Pacific Ocean, especially considering the forces of Japan. So what kind of boats do we need, and for which war? "Wall to wall" is hardly an option for us in modern realities, here, presumably, it is appropriate to recall the saying, "What is good for a Russian, is death for a German," if we look for asymmetric solutions, any reasonable compromise from the desired and the possible. The sea front of Russia, this is the Arctic, perhaps, the only place where we could achieve our superiority, both in the arrangement of the underwater monitoring system, with various sensors, both with our naval and air forces, and in the deployment of strategic submarines ice, excluding or reducing the presence of aircraft and surface ships of the enemy. In this regard, the creation of strategic Arctic boats project 941, was the right direction. "Shark" had high autonomy, high comfort for the crew, and could break through almost any Arctic ice if necessary. If it were possible to complete the development of "ice-breaking" missiles, which would enable the submarine to launch missile launches directly from under the ice, it would be generally triumphant. It was not without reason that our "sworn friends" first of all insisted on the destruction of these boats after the collapse of the USSR and our "fraternization" with America. Here, the media tried, about the problems with the R-39, and the boats that "did not fit in the ocean" ... As for the nuclear submarines and the diesel-electric submarines, they seem to be useful primarily for the possibility of strikes by the KR on the US and NATO naval bases and their coastal cities, rather than opposing enemy navigation. In this regard, cruise missiles are more necessary for boats than torpedoes. What we can agree on here is that it is not necessary to have missile silos on nuclear submarines and diesel-electric submarines, the same "Caliber" can be launched through a torpedo tube. The fight against AUG ..., and where are the aircraft carriers dangerous to us, where and to whom can deck aircraft of the USA strike blows with impunity? We practically do not have a strong surface fleet; the “Yugoslav scenario” remains. Baltic and Black Sea? Carriers there will not climb. Far East? It is unlikely, especially if our boys bad guys do not give the Japanese the South Kuriles. It means blows through the north of Europe, from the waters of Norway. Speaking of nuclear submarines, it should be noted that for Russia they acquire (as well as diesel-electric submarines) the greatest importance, precisely because of their universality, the ability not only to fight the enemy ships, but also to have the possibility of causing unacceptable damage to the territory of the potential aggressor. In this regard, the re-equipment of Project 949A Antey boats (Izvestia, citing data from the main headquarters of the Russian Navy, reported that during the modernization of Project 949A submarines, their cruise missile ammunition would triple - from 3 to 24 missiles ) is also an important decision. Even an ordinary "diesel engine", quiet and relatively cheap, armed with a CD (with a nuclear warhead) becomes a force capable of destroying a large naval base with all aircraft carriers in it, a large city. It is better not to chase individual "eggs" in the ocean, but to beat them in baskets, and together with their "baskets". Here, to summarize, we need domination in the Arctic, Arctic strategic boats. We need similarities of "wolf packs" in the Atlantic and Pacific Ocean from low-noise and relatively cheap diesel-electric submarines with CD and nuclear submarines with CD, for a guaranteed retaliatory strike against any aggressor.
    1. +5
      14 January 2019 09: 25
      Therefore, Andrey’s couch calculations are so important that they allow you to smoothly switch to scientifically sound programs, projects and finances.
  6. -11
    14 January 2019 07: 43
    An attempt to analyze without any systematic approach and taking into account scientific and technical progress is already the author’s calling card wink . Especially amused
    And we need them ... well, no less than 30.

    For what purpose do you need 10 torpedo tubes?
    Why do modern rudiments require rudimentary logging?
    The Americans run into the submarines because of their loyalty, respectively, do Russia really need them, in view of the complete absence of the expeditionary fleet as such? The question is also open.
    How justified is it to create boats of such a large displacement that are much easier to equip with a magnetometer, radar, heat direction finder?
    An even more controversial issue is with VNEU, which had lost relevance even before the mass introduction (dead end branch), yielding in all respects to modern submarines with a hybrid diesel-electric power plant.
    the author of this article does not understand why, in the presence of water-jet propulsors installed on the Borey SSBN, the series of advanced Yasen-M continues to be built with classic, in general, screws

    Americans with water cannons played around and threw, ours followed them. Large-speed low-speed saber-shaped screws are much quieter.
    .....
    However, there are some interesting ideas. I liked the single capsule for the crew, and remotely launched missiles would also become a strong trump card in the sleeve of sailors.
    1. +1
      14 January 2019 08: 44
      There is such a concept and algorithm "the work of the commander of any echelon upon receipt of a combat order."
      What is it for?
      The construction of the fleet comes from many factors:
      1 Strategic documents of the Russian Federation:
      -Strategies of national security of the Russian Federation
      -Military Doctrine of the Russian Federation
      - "Marine Doctrine of the Russian Federation" (approved by the President of the Russian Federation on July 26.07.2015, XNUMX)
      - Decree of the President of the Russian Federation of July 20.07.2017, 327 No. XNUMX
      On approval of the Fundamentals of state policy of the Russian Federation in the field of naval activities for the period until 2030
      http://kremlin.ru/acts/bank/42117
      - State Arms Program for 2018-2027
      - and many other papirs with the inscription "burn before reading"

      2. The military-economic potential of the state. The role of the military-industrial complex in its provision

      3. Strategies and tactics adopted in the state and its armed forces

      Variants of VS. application plans for various scenarios

      4. The composition and nature of the actions. strategies and tactics of potential "friends" in various strategic directions
      .and much more ..

      "I can buy a goat, but I have no desire." So let's drink to our desires to match our capabilities! "
      All will be!!!
    2. +7
      14 January 2019 08: 52
      Quote: Corn
      For what purpose do you need 10 torpedo tubes?

      It seems to be explained, is it really incomprehensible? 10 TA is 10 ready for immediate use of ammunition without reloading.
      Quote: Corn
      Why do modern rudiments require rudimentary logging?

      Then, that in peacetime without cutting it will be very difficult to control the submarine (too low above the water) and it will be hardly noticeable for ships and ships in the ocean, which is fraught with accidents
      Quote: Corn
      The Americans run into the submarines because of their loyalty, respectively, do Russia really need them, in view of the complete absence of the expeditionary fleet as such?

      The nuclear submarine is, first of all, a source of energy that does not require recharging, and as such is extremely useful even for distant lands, even in the Barents Sea. They could have studied the basics.
      Quote: Corn
      How justified is it to create boats of such a large displacement that are much easier to equip with a magnetometer, radar, heat direction finder?

      Ask the Americans, the creators of Sivulf, in almost 7 500 tons of surface displacement. Which, by the way, is intended for independent actions in the area of ​​domination of our fleet with magnetometers, radars and heat direction finders. They did it, which is characteristic.
      Quote: Corn
      An even more controversial issue is with VNEU, which had lost relevance even before the mass introduction (dead end branch), yielding in all respects to modern submarines with a hybrid diesel-electric power plant.

      In numbers please
      Quote: Corn
      Americans with water cannons played around and threw

      Only the Americans themselves do not know about it, and they are building Virginias with water cannons.
      1. -5
        14 January 2019 09: 08
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        It seems to be explained, is it really incomprehensible? 10 TAs are 10 ready for immediate use

        For what purpose may a one-time volley of 10 torpedoes be needed? The question of expediency flows into rationality.
        Then, that in peacetime without cutting it will be very difficult to control the submarine (too low above the water) and it will be hardly noticeable for ships and ships in the ocean, which is fraught with accidents
        To control the lifting telescopic boom to help. To sacrifice invisibility for the sake of a dubious increase in security is peacetime, this is clearly not the path to success. You yourself have devoted half of the article to the importance of stealth and here it is ... In the end, let the submarines in the straits always accompany surface ships.
        The nuclear submarine is, first of all, a source of energy that does not require recharging, and as such is extremely useful even for distant lands, even in the Barents Sea. They could have studied the basics.
        The ability to operate without recharging is needed only in one case - action away from the bases, otherwise the excess equipment turns into expensive, heavy, dangerous and useless ballast.
        In numbers please
        You suggest me write a separate voluminous article? Thanks, maybe someday later.
        Only the Americans themselves do not know about it, and they are building Virginias with water cannons.
        So Virginia, this is not the newest, budget option.
        1. +8
          14 January 2019 09: 43
          Quote: Corn
          For what purpose might a one-time salvo of 10 torpedoes be needed?

          TA also houses missile torpedoes, cruise missiles, and simulators. Surprise!:)))
          Quote: Corn
          To control the lifting telescopic boom to help.

          It is speculative, and, like everything speculative, in practice it will not work
          Quote: Corn
          To sacrifice invisibility for the sake of a dubious increase in security is peacetime, this is clearly not the path to success.

          And how much did they sacrifice stealth? Can you substantiate how much the cabin is "noisy"?
          Quote: Corn
          The ability to act without recharging is needed only in one case - an action away from the bases

          What are you saying, wow! The same project 971 nuclear submarine deployed on the anti-submarine line in the Barents Sea can patrol at "silent" 7 knots for at least a month, at least two, at the "Varshavyanka" the navel will be untied in a couple of days and it will be necessary to recharge the batteries - make a diesel noise half the sea
          Quote: Corn
          You suggest me write a separate voluminous article?

          Yes, at least a few numbers - why the article? :))))))))
          Quote: Corn
          So Virginia, this is not the newest, budget option.

          Virginia, this is the NEWEST NPS. And the option, yes - budget. But with a water cannon, which, by the way, was on the "off-budget" Seawulf.
          Can you name a modern American nuclear submarine with a screw instead of a water cannon? :))))))))
          1. -7
            14 January 2019 10: 13
            TA also houses missile torpedoes, cruise missiles, and simulators. Surprise!:)))
            This is all wonderful, but you still haven't answered the simplest question.
            in practice will not work
            Why can tanks, cars and planes be controlled through TV cameras, but not a submarine?
            And how much did they sacrifice stealth? Can you substantiate how much the cabin is "noisy"?
            Stealth, this is not only noise, but also a magnetic field, and displaced by volume, and hydrodynamics
            Project 971 nuclear submarine deployed on the anti-submarine line in the Barents Sea can patrol at "silent" 7 knots for at least a month, at least two, the "Varshavyanka" will untie the navel in a couple of days and it will be necessary to recharge the batteries
            I don’t see any problems to put more more energy-consuming batteries, and there are no problems to go to the bottom and charge. The noise on the floor of the sea is more of a metaphor.
            Yes, at least a few numbers
            ok, upon arrival home I’ll try to find.
            Can you name a modern American nuclear submarine with a screw instead of a water cannon ?:
            ohio los angeles
            1. +5
              14 January 2019 10: 28
              Quote: Corn
              This is all wonderful, but you still haven't answered the simplest question.

              In the sense of? I gave a completely unambiguous answer, what could still be incomprehensible there? 10 TAs are needed in order to have 10 ammunition instantly ready for use. And their number includes not only torpedoes, but also missiles, simulators, etc.
              By the way, if you suddenly happen to see a fat target (AUG, KUG) nearby, then a volley of 10 torpedoes will be very useful.
              Quote: Corn
              Why can tanks, cars and planes be controlled through TV cameras, but not a submarine?

              Because the tank has extremely limited visibility, they don’t control cars and planes through television cameras — they prefer the good old eyes.
              Quote: Corn
              Stealth, this is not only noise, but also a magnetic field, and displaced by volume, and hydrodynamics

              And how much does all this increase the cutting? :)))))
              Quote: Corn
              I don’t see any problems to put more more energy-consuming batteries, and there are no problems to go to the bottom and charge. The noise on the floor of the sea is more of a metaphor.

              don't see, or don't want to see? This is NOT a metaphor; diesel is extremely noisy.
              Quote: Corn
              ohio los angeles

              You’re just scaring me. The last Elk and Ohio were laid in 1992, after which the USA did not build boats with propellers, only with water cannons and they are being built to this day. From this you conclude
              Quote: Corn
              Americans with water cannons played around and threw

              wassat
              1. -6
                14 January 2019 11: 07
                I gave a completely unambiguous answer, what could still be incomprehensible there? 10 TAs are needed in order to have 10 ammunition in immediate readiness for use.
                This is not an answer to the above question.
                By the way, if you suddenly happen to see a fat target (AUG, KUG) nearby, then a volley of 10 torpedoes will be very useful.
                But this is the answer. Those. 10 torpedo tubes are needed only in one case, when a nuclear submarine as a suicide bomber sacrifices itself for the sake of a hypothetical possibility of inflicting AUG with minimal damage .... in fact, the logic and method of using available resources are very controversial.
                they don’t control cars and planes through television cameras - they prefer the good old eyes.
                they actually manage, and no less efficiently.
                And how much does all this increase cutting?
                as far as one can judge visually, percent on 10-15, i.e. strong enough.
                This is NOT a metaphor; diesel is extremely noisy.
                it is so noisy that finding even outdated pure diesel submarines was another task ... and more and more countries from VNEU to diesel-electric submarines are returning because they are bad. Yeah.
                after that the USA did not build boats with propellers
                Are you sure that this is reliable information, not another disinformation? I am sure that it is not, for family data are a secret behind seven seals.
                1. +7
                  14 January 2019 11: 18
                  Quote: Corn
                  This is not an answer to the above question.

                  That is the answer. The boat, being on alert, will be able to use a wide range of weapons as necessary
                  Quote: Corn
                  But this is the answer

                  But this is just not the answer, but you cannot understand the other.
                  Quote: Corn
                  Those. 10 torpedo tubes are needed only in one case, when a nuclear submarine as a suicide bomber sacrifices himself for the hypothetical possibility of inflicting AUG with minimal damage ....

                  But this is just blatant illiteracy. Read how the British drove San Luis at the Falklands, and what came of it.
                  Quote: Corn
                  they actually manage, and no less efficiently.

                  In computer games, it’s possible. In life, cars and planes are controlled by the eyes, not cameras.
                  Quote: Corn
                  as far as one can judge visually, percent on 10-15, i.e. strong enough.

                  I won't even ask what such a "visual judgment" is based on - after all, it won't take long to die of laughter
                  You just opened a new direction - "visual determination of the level of noise" laughing
                  Quote: Corn
                  is so noisy that the discovery of even outdated pure diesel submarines was another task ..

                  While they did not turn on the diesel, and walked under electric motors it is a shame not to know
                  Quote: Corn
                  Are you sure that this is reliable information, not another disinformation?

                  In short - do you have data that the latest US nuclear submarines have moved away from water cannons to propellers? Yes or no?
                  1. -9
                    14 January 2019 12: 26
                    That is the answer. The boat, being on alert, will be able to use a wide range of weapons as necessary
                    So why not 6, not 8, not 20, namely 10 torpedo tubes?
                    you cannot understand another.
                    .....
                    But this is just blatant illiteracy. Read how the British drove San Luis at the Falklands, and what came of it.
                    You yourself gave such an example, what have I to do with it? By the way, the San Luis diesel-electric submarine, which supposedly makes noise and the floor of the sea, of course there were batteries, but they were not enough for a long time.
                    In life, cars and planes are controlled by the eyes, not cameras.
                    even if such elementary questions cause disagreement, this is already a symptom of a pathological demagogue, or a professional troll.
                    You just opened a new direction - "visual determination of the level of noise"
                    You don’t distinguish complex measures to increase stealth from noise alone, but you take on fleet analytics ... I can only advise you to insert inappropriate emails more often, you will appear smarter.
                    While they did not turn on the diesel, and walked under electric motors it is a shame not to know
                    there was not enough battery for anything, the engine practically did not turn off.
                    In short - do you have data that the latest US nuclear submarines have moved away from water cannons to propellers? Yes or no?
                    I have exactly the same data as you + I rely on well-known American experience and basic common sense.
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                      1. -8
                        14 January 2019 14: 51
                        10 TA was located on Yasen. 20 would be even better tactically, but given the size and cost, this is hardly possible. 6 and 8, respectively, 4 and 2 less ammunition - in immediate readiness
                        Well, they would have entered 20 torpedo tubes, with justification all the equal ones do not bother with the word at all.
                        Clearly, that is, you know a little less about submarines than nothing. So, the project 877 submarine is capable of going 400 miles under water on one battery charge at a speed of 3 knots, that is, it is under water for up to 5,5 days. However, the speed is limited to 3 knots and the range is absolutely not impressive. During the same time, a nuclear submarine of the 3rd generation at low noise can go up to 1 miles, 500th - up to 4 thousand miles.
                        I understand you correctly, sincerely believe that the full speed of the submarine is low noise?
                        Go outside and see how the drivers of the vehicle control it.
                        including with the help of cameras, it is exclusively a matter of expediency, but not of opportunities at all. And it’s extremely stupid to deny it, in cameras the quality of the cameras and the screen has surpassed the human eye for a long time, and if for a budget sedan complex and expensive equipment will be just a useless burden, then for a submarine worth a billion, this will be the best way to solve many problems at once and improve performance.
                        declared that cutting - well, sooooo much unmasking factor
                        and I answered you, do you disagree that the cabin weighs 500 tons so, disagree with the fact that it spoils the hydrodynamics and complicates the design? What do you disagree with?
                        Tell how you look at measuring magnetic and thermal fields!
                        elementary. More mass of metal - more magnetic field, worse streamlining - more power plant power - more heat.

                        March to learn history, at least the second world war.
                        excellent, so write the capacity of the battery for 2MV times and what was enough for this energy, and not ride on the ears.
                        Accordingly, about the abandoned US water jets you lied
                        learned from you.
                      2. +3
                        14 January 2019 18: 01
                        Quote: Corn
                        Well, they would have entered 20 torpedo tubes, with justification all the equal ones do not bother with the word at all.


                        Strange, the author seems to have substantiated his position, what are you up against? Andrey is somewhat skeptical about heavy anti-ship missiles, and therefore suggested using the TA as a universal launcher with a horizontal arrangement. He does not suggest hitting with 20-torpedo volleys, he talks about the unification of the launcher. Load the boat with unified torpedo-size ammunition and using a large number of torpedo tubes, you will get a universal combat unit. By the way, the dimensions of the "thick" torpedo fully allow for the existence of a heavy anti-ship missile of this caliber.
                    2. +4
                      14 January 2019 17: 18
                      I could not stand it anymore and interfere.
                      Carl, let me give you an example, I’m a hunter and once in the winter I hunted hares in an abandoned village and suddenly a flock of wild dogs attacked me, so I regretted that my gun had only 2 barrels, not 10. I only had 2 charges ready for immediate use. So submariners can get into a similar situation when they need to shoot, and torpedo tubes are empty.
                      Many people here have little life experience, I think so, therefore they do not understand the essence.
                      1. -7
                        14 January 2019 17: 40
                        Afraid of wolves - do not go to the forest.
                        You see, enemy submarines are not wolves and do not go in packs. How many torpedoes need to be spent to flood Virginia? I think 2 is enough probability of 99%, well, 4 can be released so that the enemy submarine simply annihilates. Let two more torpedo tubes be reserved for traps, and leave 2 more just in case, total: 8. These are only conditional calculations, which may not overlap with reality, but the author did not even give such.
                        For torpedoing AUG (it’s a pack of wolves in your opinion) there will not be enough 8, 10, or 20 torpedoes.
            2. +8
              14 January 2019 14: 01
              ... and there are no problems getting to the bottom and charging


              I always thought that in order to charge submarine batteries it is necessary to start a diesel engine, which in fact is the reason for the ascent ...
              Tell me, how is this trick done when lying at the bottom?
              1. -9
                14 January 2019 14: 30
                Elementary Watson. Many modern submarines have oxygen tanks.
                1. +5
                  14 January 2019 15: 01
                  Oxygen tanks are good.
                  And where does the exhaust of a working diesel go when lying on the bottom?
                  1. -9
                    14 January 2019 16: 08
                    In water it will dissolve under pressure at a depth.
                    The jump layer visually suppresses the possibility of detection.
              2. +3
                14 January 2019 17: 26
                Quote: Ivanchester
                Tell me, how is this trick done when lying at the bottom?

                No way. Can be done submerged under the snorkel when the exhaust pipe is exposed above the water
                1. +4
                  14 January 2019 18: 14
                  here you go sad
                  And I was hoping to learn a lot more interesting about the dissolution of carbon monoxide in water under pressure and the visual capabilities of the jump layer ...
                  1. +1
                    14 January 2019 20: 14
                    Quote: Ivanchester
                    And I was hoping to learn a lot more interesting about the dissolution of carbon monoxide in water under pressure and the visual capabilities of the jump layer ...

                    Sorry, I broke off your entertainment :)))))
            3. +8
              14 January 2019 22: 59
              go to the bottom and charge no problem

              I really liked it!
              It appears at the bottom there are sockets for recharging ...
    3. +6
      14 January 2019 10: 29
      Quote: Corn
      Large-speed low-speed saber-shaped screws are much quieter.

      Water-jet engines are usually small in diameter and high-speed, subject to cavitation, which means they are noisier compared to low-speed saber-shaped screws of large diameter.
      For example, PC power supplies in order to reduce noise switched from high-speed fans with a diameter of 80 mm to low-speed fans with a larger diameter (120 mm), with a saber-shaped profile of the blades.

      An exception may be water cannons on MHD traction in salt water - they are quiet.
      1. 0
        14 January 2019 13: 21
        the water cannons stand inside the hull and have the ability to reduce the noise signature, but take up space inside. In principle, the propeller blades are easier to make larger, less revolving and "untie" from the shafts (more or less), although the maximum speed may suffer
  7. +1
    14 January 2019 09: 17
    MG-14 Anabar
    MG-24 / MG-24M
    MG-34 Egorlyk
    MG-44 Corundum-1
    MG-54 Magma
    MG-64 Stream
    MG-74 Corundum-2
    MG-84 Corundum-705
    MG-94 Magnetite
    MG-104 Throw
    MG-114 Beryl
    MG-124 Beryllium countermeasures
  8. +4
    14 January 2019 09: 42
    The question is how adding or decreasing a particular function / system affects the cost of a submarine. What percentage of the cost does UVP add to missiles? How does the depth of the dive, etc., affect the cost? Without these data, it is impossible to solve the problem of obtaining the optimal complex by the criterion of cost / efficiency. Why according to the open data multipurpose submarines of the project 885 "Ash" are more expensive than strategic 955 "Borey"? How does the increase in the series up to 15 units / 30 units affect the value of "Ash"?
    By the way, as carriers of missile weapons to defeat ship groups, you can consider the construction of "Boreev" in the version of the SSGN according to the model of the converted American SSBN "Ohio" in the SSGN. On 2 units for each fleet, after the completion of the construction of a series of SSBNs of the 955A project. Placing 100-120 CR / CRP on each. The total salvo from two SSGNs can penetrate the AUG defense, especially if they are Zircon-type missiles. In terms of cost, they should be comparable or cheaper than a SSBN of a similar project.
    1. +5
      14 January 2019 09: 52
      Quote: AVM
      What percentage of the cost does UVP for missiles add?

      Good question. The usual UVP for 8 calibers is about 323 million rubles at today's prices, 32 billion will be on 1,3 rockets, but the submarine is much more expensive, since there are a lot of problems associated with the underwater launch. And this is only the UVP itself, and there is still the cost of the equipment, of the compartment where it is located, etc.
      Quote: AVM
      Without these data it is impossible to solve the problem of obtaining the optimal complex by the criterion of cost / effectiveness

      But you can at least indicate the direction of its solution
      Quote: AVM
      why, according to open data, are multipurpose submarines of the 885 Ash project more expensive than strategic 955 Borey?

      This is how it should be, "Ash" is more complicated
      Quote: AVM
      How will the increase in the series to 15 units / 30 units affect the cost of "Ashen"?

      Unprincipled, there the price was so squeezed so hard, they went to the level of the president
      Quote: AVM
      By the way, as carriers of missile weapons to defeat naval groups, one can consider the construction of the Boreev in the version of the submarine model on the model of the converted American SSBN "Ohio" in the submarine.

      What for? We already have Ash, where more? And SSBN is not a multi-purpose submarine, and does not have the necessary qualities
      1. +1
        14 January 2019 10: 30
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Good question. The usual UVP for 8 calibers is about 323 million rubles at today's prices, 32 billion will be on 1,3 rockets, but the submarine is much more expensive, since there are a lot of problems associated with the underwater launch. And this is only the UVP itself, and there is still the cost of the equipment, of the compartment where it is located, etc.


        Expensive, even something too, is there exactly a linear relationship with an increase in the number of missiles? The United States in Virginia does not refuse UVP, even though it is not on Seawulf ...

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        This is how it should be, "Ash" is more complicated

        Gus?

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        What for? We already have Ash, where more? And SSBN is not a multi-purpose submarine, and does not have the necessary qualities


        The United States has not abandoned two SSGNs, and this is with their number of carriers of the Kyrgyz Republic of all kinds. Of course, they reworked from finished.
        With regard to the necessary qualities - in my opinion for the SSGN is the secrecy and the number of missiles in the salvo. The concealment of SSBNs should, in theory, have no less than MTSPL. At a distance of 400-500 km (when hitting surface targets), they still need external target designation; when hitting ground targets, these are coordinates on a map.
        In order to replace two SSGNs with a massive strike on the KUG / AUG, to ensure the same launch density, 6-8 Ash Trees, i.e. all that will be in the fleet. Or 17 strategic bomber-rocket carriers.
        If, as you said, Boreas are really cheaper than Ash trees, then maybe this is not the biggest price for the opportunity to create a significant threat to large ship connections?
        And for work on the "land". You never know with whom a conflict will arise, a massive strike of the KR (200-300 units) can decapitate the enemy (the country's leadership, the Armed Forces). Or destroy key infrastructure.
        1. +3
          14 January 2019 10: 58
          Quote: AVM
          Expensive, even something too much

          In 2015, serial UVP on 8 missiles for Nakhimov was ordered for 246 lyamov, I introduced an adjustment for inflation. And in total, the supply of 10 of such air-launching devices (to 80 missiles) extended to 2 559 million rubles.
          Quote: AVM
          The USA in Virginia does not refuse UVP, even though it is not on the Sivulfs ...

          yes, which suggests that you can do without UVP
          Quote: AVM
          Gus?

          No, there is another
          Quote: AVM
          The United States has not abandoned two SSGNs, and this is with their number of carriers of the Kyrgyz Republic of all kinds. Of course, they reworked from finished.

          Because they are interested in arsenal ships capable of delivering hundreds of missiles to the enemy’s coast + they should fit into the agreement on limitations on the deployment of nuclear weapons.
          Quote: AVM
          Regarding the necessary qualities - in my opinion for SSBNs this is stealth and the number of missiles in a salvo. In principle, the SSBN should have no less secrecy than the ICAPL.

          Secrecy is a loose concept. For example, the same Sivulf on the 20 nodes goes quietly in the field, but the boats of the 3 generation do not make much noise only on the 7-11 nodes. The SSBNs do not seem to be eager to provide high low-noise travel. The Boreevs have less working depth, worse maneuverability, but generally speaking, I have not thoroughly studied this issue.
  9. -2
    14 January 2019 10: 29
    An informative article, but ... In order to build multipurpose displacement under 8000 tons, they still need to be developed, and this is the time. At the same time, no one knows how much the lead nuclear submarine of the new project will be built. And if you look at the tendency to build in our shipbuilding, then at least 5-8 years, this is at best. At the same time, the big question is what will be the price of the new multi-purpose.
    I, as before, am convinced that today, given the wild quantitative bias of multi-purpose and strategists, towards the latter, we need a quick and effective solution to this problem, which cannot be solved by building a new multi-purpose nuclear submarine in the near future. Therefore, I think the solution is afloat is a project of the Lira submarine. If we say so, to modernize this project, to rework, taking into account modern realities, then we can get a new class of nuclear submarine-hunter, capable of solving most of the tasks that are assigned to multi-purpose nuclear submarines. At the same time, in the construction of such submarines will be faster implemented, the price again will certainly be, relatively reasonable.
    Lira 2.0, as a project of Hunter, in the case of the implementation and production of a good series, in a relatively short time, is able to bridge the gaps in the issue of multipurpose nuclear submarines that we have now.
    1. +4
      14 January 2019 10: 32
      Quote: NEXUS
      Therefore, I think the solution is afloat is a project of the Lira submarine. If we say so, to modernize this project, to redesign, taking into account modern realities, then you can get a new class of submarine-hunter, able to solve most of the tasks that are assigned to multi-purpose submarines

      Will not work. Everything is outdated there, in fact, you need to design a ship from scratch - we don’t even have a suitable reactor. The cost will be space - titanium case
      1. NKT
        +2
        14 January 2019 10: 42
        Then it turns out that we need to continue to build Ash trees (even if they are expensive) since there is no other option. Until the first Husky appears, at least 10-15 years will pass.
        1. +2
          14 January 2019 11: 08
          Quote: NKT
          Then it turns out that we need to continue to build Ash trees (even if they are expensive) since there is no other option

          This option is not there either, because there is no money
          1. NKT
            +4
            14 January 2019 11: 17
            Then the question arises, why do we need submarines with Poseidons, which "duplicate a nuclear strike" and which also need to be protected. We don't have enough guards for strategists either.
            1. +7
              14 January 2019 11: 33
              Quote: NKT
              Then the question arises, why do we need submarines with Poseidons,

              An absolutely fair question, by the way. For we do not need them from the word "in general"
              1. 0
                14 January 2019 22: 12
                But what about the jigsaw? But what about "those who have no analogues in the world"? But what about the development of funds for such important R&D? Especially important because nobody needs them. Well, except for those who master and those who promote "legal proceedings" ....
            2. -2
              14 January 2019 12: 43
              Quote: NKT
              Then the question arises, why do we need submarines with Poseidons,

              And where did you get the idea that Poseidon’s carriers need cover?
              For me, the appearance of Poseidon, Vanguard, Petrel fundamentally changes the very concept of using weapons with nuclear weapons.
              As the Boa Kaa rightly said, Poseidon does not have to be released from the TA, which greatly unmasks the carrier. A much more real idea is the transportation of Poseidon on certain grabs, so to speak, on the external suspension of submarines. And then the carrier of this weapon can be any submarine suitable for the dimensions of Poseidon.
              1. +7
                14 January 2019 12: 52
                Quote: NEXUS
                And where did you get the idea that Poseidon’s carriers need cover?

                And why would they not need it? Are they magical?
                Quote: NEXUS
                For me, the appearance of Poseidon, Vanguard, Petrel fundamentally changes the very concept of using weapons with nuclear weapons.

                Yes, it does. Before, we had an arsenal of funds guaranteed to reach the United States (ICBM), and now we’re changing it for all sorts of oddities
                1. -5
                  14 January 2019 12: 58
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  And why would they not need it? Are they magical?

                  The principle of Poseidon is the same as that of the X-102 ... given the range of this torpedo robot, it can be launched from its waters. Moreover, even the same Borey is able to fend for himself ... and the carrier of Poseidon, in addition to this main caliber, may well carry other strike weapons, in the form of the same torpedoes.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  and now we change it to all sorts of oddities

                  What hangover is this weird? Poseidon is much cheaper than the same ICBM, which still has to break through the enemy’s missile defense. Poseidon at a depth of a kilometer does not have such problems, from the word at all. This means that the adversary does not have protection from him and is not expected in the near future.
                  1. +8
                    14 January 2019 13: 10
                    Quote: NEXUS
                    The principle of Poseidon is the same as that of the X-102 ... given the range of this torpedo robot, it can be launched from its own waters

                    The question is, why do you need a carrier
                    Quote: NEXUS
                    At the same time, even the same Borey is able to fend for himself ...

                    But he is not a multi-purpose submarine and will lose to her in a duel with a high degree of probability.
                    Quote: NEXUS
                    and the carrier of Poseidon, in addition to this main caliber, may well carry other strike weapons, in the form of the same torpedoes.

                    Given that one of the converted ones is 949A, you should expect less from it than from Borea
                    Quote: NEXUS
                    What hangover is this weird? Poseidon is much cheaper than the same ICBM,

                    Rather, an order of magnitude more expensive.
                    Quote: NEXUS
                    which still has to break through the enemy missile defense

                    The only difference is that today the ICBMs and its warheads are practically unbreakable, and the torpedo is very amazing. That is, it is easier to intercept a torpedo
                    Quote: NEXUS
                    Poseidon at a depth of a kilometer does not have such problems, from the word completely

                    Pfff, regular GB with nuclear weapons.
                    1. -4
                      14 January 2019 13: 25
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      The question is, why do you need a carrier

                      Perhaps in the future he will not be needed.
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      But he is not a multi-purpose submarine and will lose to her in a duel with a high degree of probability.

                      Very controversial. There are a lot of factors, starting from who is the first to discover whom and ending with the coherence and professionalism of the crews. Of course, the multi-purpose man is imprisoned to fight his own kind, unlike the strategist, whose tasks are different ... but, again, Borey is able to stand up for himself.

                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Rather, an order of magnitude more expensive.

                      Are you serious? Is a multi-stage ICBM, with missile defense systems, storage, etc., cheaper? At the same time, a volley launch, say 16 ICBMs, this is not a regular story, and it’s a very complicated matter ... you yourself know. When launching Poseidon, there are no such problems, from the word at all. At the same time, we do not forget that Poseidon is sharpened not only for attacks on coastal cities, but also on the AUG, for example, which the ICBM is not capable of doing.

                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      The only difference is that today the ICBMs and its warheads are practically unbreakable,

                      The probability of interception is also very high. It is clear that with a massive salvo, not a single missile defense will completely absorb it ...
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      and the torpedo is very shocking. That is, it is easier to intercept a torpedo

                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Pfff, regular GB with nuclear weapons.

                      Why, you say ... and the question of finding Poseidon, as I understand it, you do not consider at all. But there are difficulties, and you know that.
                      1. +4
                        14 January 2019 17: 25
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        Perhaps in the future he will not be needed.

                        Andrei, if he has a nuclear engine, then the carrier is not needed right now.
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        Are you serious? Is a multi-stage ICBM, with missile defense systems, storage, etc., cheaper?

                        Sure. I still apologize, but an ICBM is the most common missile, often liquid-propellant, our cost of launching Protons is something within 10 lamas of green. But a miniature nuclear reactor for Poseidon ... these are completely different prices.
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        At the same time, do not forget that Poseidon is sharpened not only for strikes on coastal cities, but also on AUG, for example, which the ICBM is not capable of doing

                        This is the same fiction as the Dagger’s attacks on the AUG - unless, of course, we are talking about that. to land a couple of tens of kilometers
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        The probability of interception is very high.

                        No :)))))))
                      2. -1
                        14 January 2019 17: 52
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei, if he has a nuclear engine, then the carrier is not needed right now.

                        Perhaps so ... but Poseidon is not a full-time torpedo. I will say more, I wondered, why does everyone think that the carrier of Poseidon must be underwater? I don’t see a problem if the carrier is a surface ship.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        but an ICBM is the most common missile, often liquid-propellant, our cost of launching Protons is something within 10 lamas of green.

                        To begin with, on the issue of ICBMs, namely, their number and the number of carriers, we are very limited by contract. Second ... all the same, Proton and let's say YRS are slightly different missiles, both in complexity and in execution ... yeah ...
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        This is the same fiction as the Dagger’s attacks on the AUG - unless, of course, we are talking about that. to land a couple of tens of kilometers

                        Whether oh ... about the Dagger, yes ... so far its use by the AUG is not provided and this is true. But in the future, the Dagger will be "taught" to work on moving targets and you know that.
                        Now for Poseidon ... and what will prevent Poseidon, if there are sensors, radar, etc., is it to search for a sea target? Religion will not allow it? What do we know about the filling of Poseidon? The only thing is that he is able to act offline. And I'm more than sure that his BASIC task is not strikes along the coast, namely the destruction of the AUG.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The probability of interception is very high.

                        No :)))))))

                        In the initial phase of the flight, there is. EJIS are ground for this. At the same time, I said above, there is no absolute missile defense in the world, which is capable of guaranteed protection from a massive missile strike. But at a depth of a kilometer, the adversary DOES NOT have any protection from Poseidon. It is not possible to intercept it, since detecting it is very problematic. As far as I understand, there are not screws there, but water cannons ... that is, this torpedo is quiet. Let’s add to this her speed and ability to go around dangerous areas for herself ... go intercept her ...
                      3. -1
                        14 January 2019 18: 27
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The probability of interception is very high.

                        No :)))))))

                        Namesake, tell me how you are going to intercept Poseidon, at a depth of a kilometer. At the same time, in the condition of the problem there are such moments as inconsistent torpedo speed, unpredictability of the course, the ability to bypass dangerous areas for yourself, and accelerate to 100 nodes, while having an unlimited power reserve ...
                      4. +5
                        14 January 2019 18: 39
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        how are you going to intercept Poseidon, at a depth of a kilometer. At the same time, in the condition of the problem there are such moments as a constant torpedo speed, unpredictability of the course, the ability to bypass dangerous areas for yourself, and accelerate to 100 knots ...

                        already answered below
                        but about "avoiding dangerous areas" amused;)
                        upstats of the Status so that the torpedo would "bypass" the AIRCRAFT have not yet bounced
                        You are the first
                        Congratulations!
                      5. -5
                        14 January 2019 18: 43
                        Quote: mina024
                        already answered below

                        Very amused by your SOSUS ... yeah ... saw Shura, saw, it is golden! wassat
                      6. 0
                        14 January 2019 19: 06
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        Very amused by your SOSUS ... yeah ... saw Shura, saw, it is golden!

                        YOUR stupid Moscow didn’t even have to understand that it was ABOUT THE DEPTH OF ANTENNA SOSUS (and this is 1,5-5,5 km !!!!) and there is NO problem with finding a target on 1km, but on the contrary, it turns out to be close to the axis of the depth-sensitive slam-shutter

                        and as for SOSUS - everything is just expensive, even its antenna, and cable
                        and what they stupidly use, but they don’t put new ones because MORE EFFECTIVE MEANS appeared
                      7. -4
                        14 January 2019 19: 31
                        Quote: mina024
                        YOUR stupid Moscow didn’t even have to understand that it was ABOUT THE DEPTH OF ANTENNA SOSUS (and this is 1,5-5,5 km !!!!) and there is NO problem with finding a target on 1km, but on the contrary, it turns out to be close to the axis of the depth-sensitive slam-shutter

                        Well, about the brain, this is for you ... I repeat for those who are from another planet, SOSUS is CANNED! At the same time, to cover the entire perimeter of the mainland with sensors, for money, even for mattresses, the burden is not lifting.
                        Quote: mina024
                        and cable
                        and what they stupidly use, but they don’t put new ones because

                        Well, here is Lavrov’s diagnosis on the face.
                        Quote: mina024
                        MORE EFFECTIVE MEANS appeared

                        Seriously? wassat And what?
                      8. +4
                        14 January 2019 19: 49
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        SOSUS CANNED

                        Monsieur, do you understand the meaning of this phrase with your cerebellum?
                        those. even if at the moment the Americans are not "playing" these antennas anywhere, they can use them again at any time.

                        Quote: NEXUS
                        to cover with sensors ALL the perimeter of the mainland, for money, even for mattresses the load is not lifting

                        understandable ... where the "mattresses" begin, there is no need for arguments
                        however, there is only one figure - the cost of a "carrot" (simple RGAB) for amers is about $ 500
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        Seriously?

                        Zaya, yes appeared, and for a long time - even with 70x-80x
                        various deployable and maneuverable
                        and I'll open the "creepy military" for you - digital processing no longer requires complex and extremely expensive cable management, and the cost of new FOSS is fundamentally lower than what it was in the twentieth century
                        even our products from Dubna are quite divine for the price
                      9. -3
                        14 January 2019 19: 53
                        Quote: mina024
                        Monsieur, do you understand the meaning of this phrase with your cerebellum?

                        Well, you have already scrawled a dozen warnings here, but oh well ... I met a boor like you more than once. There are a lot of bubbles, but knowledge, like my cat, that is, zero.
                        Quote: mina024
                        understandable ... where the "mattresses" begin, there is no need for arguments
                        however, there is only one figure - the cost of a "carrot" (simple RGAB) for amers is about $ 500

                        What are you saying ... wassat Well, to your pearls about SOSUS, it was added about 8 MK-50 ... continue to burn. I'm full of attention. wassat
                        Quote: mina024
                        Zaya, yes appeared, and for a long time - even with 70x-80x

                        Zaea, you will call your wife, mother, daughter ... you are our tolerant.
                      10. 0
                        14 January 2019 20: 22
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        Well, you have already scratched a good dozen

                        Zaya, YOU are not just dumb, YOU are dumb like a cork
              2. NKT
                +8
                14 January 2019 13: 03
                Nexus, what then is the difference between the strategist's exit to the "point" from the submarine with Poisedons? You have repeatedly said that our strategists are not covered right now, but at the same time you want to leave "naked" submarines with the Poisedons? So what's the difference? In addition, without modernization, existing submarines cannot be their carriers.
                And the global question. Due to insufficient funding of our Navy, do we really need to spend money on a project with Poseidons? What is their advantage? What can they do so that traditional nuclear weapons delivery vehicles do not? It might be advisable to send these funds for the construction of new Ash-trees, while we have nothing else? Again, we already spray scarce means and do a little bit in all areas.
                1. -2
                  14 January 2019 13: 14
                  Quote: NKT
                  Nexus, what then is the difference between the strategist's exit to the "point" from the submarine with the Poisedons? You have repeatedly said that our strategists are not covered right now, but at the same time you want to leave "naked" submarines with Poisedons?

                  You just misunderstood me. I did not say that I want to leave the carriers of Poseidon without cover. I am talking about the fact that these carriers are not strategic submarines, in the classical sense. If Poseidon is mounted on an "external sling", what prevents such a carrier from having non-nuclear defenses and attacks in its arsenal?
                  Quote: NKT
                  So what's the difference?

                  The difference is primarily in price. Poseidon is an order of magnitude, or maybe cheaper, than the classic ICBM, but it doesn’t have a problem breaking through the enemy’s missile defense. This is a mobile complex that is more difficult to track than a flying ICBM. At a depth of a kilometer there is no means of intercepting Poseidon, which in addition goes along an unpredictable trajectory. At the same time, Poseidons can be stamped as much as necessary, if there were carriers, unlike ICBMs.

                  Quote: NKT
                  Due to insufficient funding of our Navy, do we really need to spend money on a project with Poseidons? What is their advantage? What can they do so that traditional nuclear weapons delivery vehicles do not?

                  I already said above. The main thing is the comparative price, plus the lack of means of intercepting such a robot.
                  1. +2
                    14 January 2019 17: 56
                    They have already explained to you that Poseidon is more expensive than ICBMs. They also explained that it is more difficult to intercept a warhead falling from space than a torpedo under water. And why do you constantly repeat about the carrier of Poseidon? Poseidon can easily be attached to an underwater platform or even simpler - a container with Poseidon is secured with anchors in our coastal waters, the carrier is then not needed at all.
                    1. -3
                      14 January 2019 18: 01
                      Quote: Fan-Fan
                      They already explained to you that Poseidon is more expensive than ICBMs

                      Explained? The smartest? Voice the cost of ICBMs YRS or Sinev, as well as voice the price of Poseidon. Enlighten the dark, wise guy.
                      Quote: Fan-Fan
                      They also explained that it is more difficult to intercept a warhead falling from space than a torpedo under water.

                      Come on ... don’t tell me how you are going to intercept Poseidon at a depth of a kilometer, which does not move at a constant speed, bypassing dangerous directions ... it’s very interesting to listen to an expert.
                      1. +1
                        14 January 2019 18: 27
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        Come on ... don’t tell me how you are going to intercept Poseidon at a depth of a kilometer, which does not move at a constant speed, bypassing dangerous directions ... it’s very interesting to listen to an expert.


                        What's the problem?
                        even Orion of the late 80s (with a modified PPS) and 8 torpedoes Mk50 can handle this task
                      2. -2
                        14 January 2019 18: 29
                        Quote: mina024
                        What's the problem?
                        even Orion of the late 80s (with a modified PPS) and 8 torpedoes Mk50 can handle this task

                        So tell me how it all will happen ... and then say and merge, a lot of mind is not necessary.
                        Especially about the discovery of Poseidon at a depth of a kilometer, it is very interesting to listen ...
                      3. +1
                        14 January 2019 18: 37
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        So tell me how it all will happen ... and then say and merge, a lot of mind is not necessary. Especially about the discovery of Poseidon at a depth of a kilometer, it is very interesting to listen ...

                        Monsieur, before you flog nonsense and fill up the forum with tons of YOUR stupid flood, just "take a little interest", for example, the depths of the SOSUS antennas
                        and then try to include the rest of the MOSH
                      4. -3
                        14 January 2019 18: 41
                        Quote: mina024
                        for example, depths of installation of antennas SOSUS

                        Before writing such frank nonsense, they asked at least the fact that SOSUS was canned back in 11. And secondly, ask why the US refused to continue the SOSUS program. I will tell you, for those who are especially stubborn, the price is high even for the USA.
                        In this case, wise guy, ask our submariners how they bypassed SOSUS, without any problems.
                        Quote: mina024
                        and then try to include the rest of the MOSH

                        Here ... turn it on, not Vicki read, know-it-all ... yeah
                      5. +1
                        14 January 2019 18: 57
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        Before writing such frank nonsense, they asked at least the fact that SOSUS was mothballed back in 11

                        monsieur what and how the amers have "canned" I know not from the murzilok
                        I personally did not check SOSUS, but there were those who did it - IN PRACTICE
                        but the stalworth (which the US Navy "handed out" to "all sorts of ecologists" - "count whales") SEE PERSONALLY, in 2000. in sight of the lights of Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky and with a "gut" exposed (which some of us tried to cut off with them;)

                        well, about "bypassing the SOSUS without problems" - with these MURZILKI - to the DUCKS
                      6. -4
                        14 January 2019 19: 35
                        Quote: mina024
                        SEE PERSONALLY, in 2000. in sight of the lights of Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky and with a "gut" exposed (which some of us tried to cut off with them;)

                        For the Martians, I repeat, no SOSUSy, Steelworths will block the perimeter of the mainland ... your school math teacher apparently hanged himself, since you shame such nonsense and are not shy about it.
                      7. +1
                        14 January 2019 19: 52
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        For the Martians, I repeat, no SOSUSy, Steelworths will block the perimeter of the mainland ... your school math teacher apparently hanged himself, since you shame such nonsense and are not shy about it.


                        Zaya about your "education" wassat from TsPSh better shut up;)
                        and for those who are on the "armored train" there is an OAK FACT - almost ALL BS 667A of the project were tracked by amers
                        despite the fact that in terms of detecting 667, the project is a more complicated goal than this Status
                      8. -3
                        14 January 2019 19: 55
                        Quote: mina024
                        despite the fact that in terms of detecting 667, the project is a more complicated goal than this Status

                        Curtain! Applause! wassat Go on, do not keep in yourself! wassat
                      9. +2
                        14 January 2019 20: 05
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        A curtain! Applause

                        Zaya, if you "change" the noise wassat by SIZE, then I "congratulate you" - this is ABSOLUTELY wrong
                      10. -2
                        14 January 2019 19: 48
                        Quote: mina024
                        and 8 torpedoes Mk50

                        Hmm ... but the case is not curable. We look at the maximum depth of the MK50 -580 meters! The question is, what are we smoking?
                        Just in case, we look at the maximum depth of the MK48-800. The question is, for doubles, and 580 meters and 800 meters is the same as a kilometer?
                      11. +3
                        14 January 2019 19: 57
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        Hmm ... but the case is not curable. We look at the maximum depth of the MK50 -580 meters! The question is, what are we smoking?

                        YOU ARE SMOKING - KANIBAS
                        for in normal. sources on the same Mk50, was 1200m
                        and Mk48 is also far from 800, but significantly more
                      12. -2
                        14 January 2019 20: 04
                        Quote: mina024
                        YOU ARE SMOKING - KANIBAS
                        because in the norms. sources on the same Mk50, it was 1200
                        and Mk48 is also far from 800, but significantly more

                        Source to the studio. Here is a foreign source that writes about MK50 ..
                        Primary Function Air and ship-launched lightweight torpedo
                        Contractor Alliant Techsystems
                        Northrup Grumman [Westinghouse]
                        Raytheon Electronic Systems
                        Power Plant Stored Chemical Energy Propulsion System
                        Length 112 inches
                        Weight 750 pounds
                        Diameter 12.75 inches
                        Speed ​​40+ knots
                        Range
                        Depth 1,900+ ft.
                        Guidance System AKY-14 programmable digital computer with active sonar and passive acoustical homing
                        Warhead Approximately 100 pounds high explosive (shaped charge)
                        Inventory Objective 1000 systems
                        Total program cost (TY$) $3100M
                        Average unit cost (TY$) $2.9M
                        Full-rate production Low Rate Only

                        1900 feet is 580 meters!
                      13. 0
                        14 January 2019 20: 15
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        Source to the studio. Here is a foreign source that writes about MK50 ..

                        YOU, turn this Murzilka into a tube and ...
                        THERE is her place!
                      14. 0
                        14 January 2019 20: 20
                        by the way it is written in the link right
                        just someone with vision problems
                        for next to the acc. digits are + (MORE)
                        similarly, Americans write about the speed and depth of the submarine, for example 25 + knots - despite the fact that the Los flew up to 38uz
                      15. +1
                        14 January 2019 21: 58
                        In addition to all that has already been said, I note that the depth of Poseidon is 1 km, this is also data not confirmed anywhere. I also note - I tried to search for information about Poseidon and found that the power of its nuclear charge was declared up to 2 megatons. And here 100 and even 150 megatons write?
                      16. 0
                        15 January 2019 23: 13
                        Well, just as you can assume that in fact Poseidons go at a depth of 2 km and at a speed of 200 knots. So, what is next?
                      17. 0
                        15 January 2019 03: 06
                        To begin with, sound the depth to which the MK50 is designed. So to say TTX.
                  2. +2
                    14 January 2019 18: 28
                    Quote: NEXUS
                    Poseidon is an order of magnitude, or maybe cheaper, than the classic ICBM, while it does not have a problem with a missile defense breakthrough

                    do not smash nonsense, it hurts !!!
                    1. -5
                      14 January 2019 18: 31
                      Quote: mina024
                      do not smash nonsense, it hurts !!!

                      Do not carry nonsense, she might like it. The price of ICBMs is announced, and after the price of Poseidon.
                      1. +1
                        14 January 2019 18: 35
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        Do not carry nonsense, she might like it. The price of ICBMs is announced, and after the price of Poseidon.

                        and what else to "sound"? TTX "Predator"?
                        in fact, with such INFANTILE questions and requests (against the background of outright nonsense in YOUR posts), YOU have fully described yourself - YOURSELF
                      2. -5
                        14 January 2019 18: 38
                        Quote: mina024
                        and what else to "sound"? TTX "Predator"?
                        in fact, with such INFANTILE questions and requests (against the background of outright nonsense in YOUR posts), YOU have fully described yourself - YOURSELF

                        Dear, the congress is counted. You are not able to clearly explain your position, because apart from the gurgling of the brain, I did not see anything.
                        In this case, the argument, like a child in kindergarten ... that is, no. Therefore, with you, of course, everything is clear and clear.
                      3. +3
                        14 January 2019 18: 53
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        Dear, the congress is counted. You are not capable of explaining your position clearly, since besides the gurgling of the brain

                        Monsieur, "MosKh's bullying" is here at YOU - with YOUR crap about "Lyra's rework" and "Status fuderwaffe"
                        and for me, sorry - EXPERT OPINION
                        PM
                        PS - YOU have been waiting for the ducks in the DiWana;) to them your cannabis about Status and steam
              3. 0
                14 January 2019 22: 12
                Quote: NEXUS
                Quote: NKT
                Then the question arises, why do we need submarines with Poseidons,

                And where did you get the idea that Poseidon’s carriers need cover?
                For me, the appearance of Poseidon, Vanguard, Petrel fundamentally changes the very concept of using weapons with nuclear weapons.
                As the Boa Kaa rightly said, Poseidon does not have to be released from the TA, which greatly unmasks the carrier. A much more real idea is the transportation of Poseidon on certain grabs, so to speak, on the external suspension of submarines. And then the carrier of this weapon can be any submarine suitable for the dimensions of Poseidon.

                How, with what will we protect the carrier, in the area of ​​the exit from the Kola Bay ??)) In the 90s, there was a "passage yard". I don't think the situation has improved much
      2. -3
        14 January 2019 12: 38
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Everything is outdated there, in fact, you need to design a ship from scratch

        All right. But do not Husky design from scratch? M.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The cost will be space - titanium case

        I'm not talking about the titanium case. This is a steel case.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        we don’t even have a suitable reactor.

        I think this problem is being solved today ...
        At the end of February, Russian media reported that the Russian fleet was considering the use of a qualitatively new class of nuclear submarines. Allegedly, we are talking about highly automated, that is, partially robotic vessels that reach high speed and are called "submarine fighters." An anonymous source of information did not have to add what most experts already understood: the Russians, apparently, want to revive the ambiguous class of submarines Lira / Alpha.

        And by the way, what about the Husky project, the cost will not be space? R&D, head and so on ... at the same time, a very important factor for us is TIME. We do not need new multipurpose in 20 years, but we need it now. In addition, I'm not at all sure that even the Ash Series will be on the 7 boards. I think the more real figure is 4-5.
        1. +2
          14 January 2019 12: 55
          Quote: NEXUS
          All right. But do not Husky design from scratch? M.

          Of course, from scratch, I’m saying that the revival of the lyre in this sense will not give us a win
          Quote: NEXUS
          I'm not talking about the titanium case. This is a steel case.

          Then it's not quite a lyre
          Quote: NEXUS
          I think this problem is being solved today ...

          solvable, but how many years will it take? We didn’t develop reactors with a liquid metal support.
          Quote: NEXUS
          And by the way, what about the Husky project, the cost will not be space?

          I believe that it’s space, but we need a budget, but the Lyra that you propose is also space and does not satisfy the requirement. Like Ash and Husky
          1. -4
            14 January 2019 13: 07
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Of course, from scratch, I’m saying that the revival of the lyre in this sense will not give us a win

            You are mistaken. Very much give. Such submarines with a displacement in 2-3 of thousands of tons can be built relatively quickly, and for the price it will certainly be cheaper than the Husky. At the same time, the crews of such submarines will be small, given the automation.
            Remember the times of the Second World War. Projects of the submarine "Malyutka" were very effective, despite their size and small base.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Then it's not quite a lyre

            I said, MODERN LYRA PROJECT.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            solvable, but how many years will it take? We didn’t develop reactors with a liquid metal support.

            How much time will it take to develop a Husky? Think less? We need to solve the issue of multi-purpose workers now, and not in the boundless future. For the mattresses, the Virginia series is in full swing and they are already considering the pace of the -2 submarines per year. And this is only the USA ... and if you take the total multipurpose submarines of the NATO fleet?


            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            I believe that it’s space, but we need a budget, but the Lyra that you propose is also space and does not satisfy the requirement.

            Here you are very mistaken. Yes, the prototype of Lyra 2.0 will not be cheap ... but you understand, in case of launching a good series, the price will adapt ...
            1. +3
              14 January 2019 13: 24
              Quote: NEXUS
              You are mistaken. Very much give. Such submarines with a displacement in 2-3 of thousands of tons can be built relatively quickly, and for the price it will certainly be cheaper than the Husky.

              Nexus, I believe that Husky is not suitable for us. And I think that in the end it will be like that - we will be transported with it for several years, and then we will be surprised to see a price tag that significantly exceeds Ash.
              With 2.0 lyre, we take about the same amount of time, if not more, but what will we get at the exit?
              HOOK - no, at best, an analogue of what is on the 677, that is, much weaker than the Irtysh-Amphora and what is on the Americans. There will be no noise, the lyre is quite loud and will be loud by the standards of the 4 generation. Lyra’s only advantage is high speed, but it’s difficult to realize it without seeing or hearing the enemy - you still can’t get away from MK 48 with its 55 nodes
              1. -4
                14 January 2019 13: 31
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                With 2.0 lyre, we take about the same amount of time, if not more, but what will we get at the exit?

                You are very wrong here. I believe that the price tag will be much lower than that of Husky.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                HOOK - no, at best, an analogue of what is on the 677, that is, much weaker than the Irtysh-Amphora and what is on the Americans.

                I repeat-MODERN LIRA. You judge by taking the draft of the Soviet Lyra ...
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                There will be no noise, the lyre is quite loud and will be loud by the standards of the 4 generation.

                And who said that the new Lyra should issue an 43 node? At the same time, who said that Lyra should drive all that way across the seas and oceans? M
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Lyra’s only advantage is high speed,

                The speed in the 30-35 node as much as possible will be enough for her.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                from MK 48 with its 55 nodes you still can’t escape

                You again take the concept and tactics of using the Lyra from the times of the USSR. I’ll explain to you that we don’t need it now. We need a Hunter, of small displacement, able to take on the functions of a multi-purpose submarine.
                1. +2
                  14 January 2019 17: 18
                  Quote: NEXUS
                  You are very wrong here. I believe that the price tag will be much lower than that of Husky.

                  Andrei, I’m telling you about the development timeline, and you about the price tag.
                  Quote: NEXUS
                  I repeat-MODERN LIRA. You judge by taking the draft of the Soviet Lyra ...

                  Well, so I thought that the boat should retain its features.
                  If you are talking about nuclear submarines in 3 000 tons, then of course it will be cheaper, but it will not be able to become the hunter you are talking about. Well, do not push modern equipment into such dimensions. I myself would also like to get at the output of the nuclear submarine in 4-5 thousand tons, but ... in my opinion - it’s not climbing. However, I do not insist
                  1. -1
                    14 January 2019 17: 37
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    If you are talking about nuclear submarines in 3 000 tons, then of course it will be cheaper, but it will not be able to become the hunter you are talking about. Well, do not push modern equipment into such dimensions

                    Oh, oh ... and I’m sure that it’s possible to cram it. For example, you talked about Amphora ... but if you remember that the development of ROFAR, which is dimensionally smaller at times, is underway, then everything starts to look not so bad as Do you think.
                    At the same time, I'm not talking about stuffing such a submarine with an arsenal, so that the hatch would not close. The "Baby" principle that I mentioned above. It is clear that such a submarine cannot fit, say, 40 torpedoes, and even 32 CR, but this is not necessary. The arsenal will be more modest, but the efficiency of the submarine itself will not suffer much from this, but in the end we will get a cheaper submarine of the Hunter class in comparison with Ash and Husky, capable of performing multipurpose tasks. And in the construction of such a submarine will be faster in time.
                    It was not for nothing that I emphasized that this would be a modernized Lear. And of course, modern realities and tactics must be taken into account. I'm not talking about super speeds, under the 43 node ... this is today and to nothing. But I consider the ability to butt on equal terms with multipurpose adversaries, with less displacement, as an idea worthy of consideration, at least.
                    I consider your proposal to create a new full-volume multi-purpose ship, taking into account our realities and the state of our fleets, not worthwhile. For at least two reasons, price and creation time.
                    8-10 thousandth multipurpose, in any case, we will not pull in the quantity, as you indicated in the article, 30 pieces. Well, no way. And you can disagree with me and argue, but today and in the near future this is so. Then the question is, why should we do that? How to patch this gap? And in this regard, I believe that there is only one way out: the creation of a submarine, class Hunter, displacement 2,5-3 thousand tons (commensurate with Varshavyanka). Moreover, using developments both in Borey and in Yasen. And in this case, in the serial production of these submarines, it is safe to fight a full-fledged multi-purpose, if it will be needed in the future.
                  2. +2
                    14 January 2019 18: 13
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    If you are talking about nuclear submarines in 3 000 tons, then of course it will be cheaper, but it will not be able to become the hunter you are talking about. Well, do not push modern equipment into such dimensions. I myself would also like to get at the output of the nuclear submarine in 4-5 thousand tons, but ... in my opinion - it’s not climbing. However, I do not insist


                    at the end of the USSR they started "Nelma" (and not in "Malachite";))
                    and now PMSM it makes sense to analyze option 677 with UVP and a powerful nuclear power plant
              2. 0
                14 January 2019 16: 05
                and noise simulators will not help with torpedo simulators?
              3. +2
                14 January 2019 18: 15
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                HOOK - no, at best, an analogue of what is on the 677, that is, much weaker than the Irtysh-Amphora and what is on the Americans.


                why do you think so ;)
                if from "roulette", then I will let you know that our fans "measure the GAC with roulettes" after the Americans on virgins went to DECREASE the "ball" there was a "break in the pattern"
                1. +1
                  14 January 2019 20: 26
                  Quote: mina024
                  why do you think so ;)

                  Simply speaking, I did not hear anything about the fact that our HAC for diesel submarines (which are relatively small in size) somehow approximated the capabilities of the HAC nuclear submarines. But I remember that there were a lot of complaints on the technical side at HAC 677.
                  Quote: mina024
                  after the Americans on the virgins went to REDUCE the "ball" there was a "break in the template"

                  Well, I don’t answer for other people's templates, I have enough of my own :))))))))) I understand that the size of the antenna is not the only criterion for the quality of the HOOK, but I don’t see an example when the small HAC showed the best qualities, than created at the same technological level as large. If there are such examples, or at least an explanation of the physical principle, then I am ready to change my position :)
            2. +5
              14 January 2019 19: 00
              Quote: NEXUS
              Remember the times of the Second World War. Projects of the submarine "Malyutka" were very effective, despite their size and small base.

              Only close to its shores and only until the Germans did not have at least some kind of escort. Moreover, traditionally, most of the requests of our submarine commanders for the sinking of enemy ships and ships are not objectively confirmed.
              "Malyutki" suffered from low speed, short range, low seaworthiness, low autonomy, lack of spare torpedoes, single-shaft power plant and the irrepressible striving of the bow end to the surface after the launch of torpedoes.
      3. +3
        14 January 2019 18: 45
        Andrey, thanks for the next informative article good I can only add to your words that even hypothetically resuscitation of Lira will add a complete alteration of infrastructure and services. There was information that it was because of the titans of the hull that all the metal structures of the berths were consumed during the year. Well, a reactor with a liquid metal coolant is a very difficult and controversial decision.
      4. +2
        14 January 2019 18: 51
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote: NEXUS
        Therefore, I think the solution is afloat is a project of the Lira submarine. If we say so, to modernize this project, to redesign, taking into account modern realities, then you can get a new class of submarine-hunter, able to solve most of the tasks that are assigned to multi-purpose submarines

        Will not work. Everything is outdated there, in fact, you need to design a ship from scratch - we don’t even have a suitable reactor. The cost will be space - titanium case

        Andrey, but he seemed to say right away, - "modernize ..., rework, taking into account modern realities ..". Those. most likely, it meant: 1) not titanium, but steel, 2) a new GAK, 3) most likely a new and compact reactor (traditional, not liquid metal coolant), etc. By the way, the appearance of the "promising" - Husky, is just like cloning "Lyra" ... I confess that the thoughts of the development of the ISSAP in this direction are likable to me. Yes, I understand that this is for the future, and having reworked (as a "starting point for the Lear project"), it will be possible to start implementing this in 3-4 years, and then if all interested (USC, Navy, Ministry of Defense and etc.). In the meantime, I personally would welcome the laying and construction of 5-7 new submarines of Project 971-M, of which 4-5 are for the weakened Pacific Fleet. If so, then this "forced failure in time" for redesigning "Husky-Lear" will not be lost in vain, and the Navy will receive "Shchuka-B", which proved to be quite good, and at the same time much cheaper than "Ash" ...
        1. +4
          14 January 2019 20: 31
          Quote: Vl Nemchinov
          Those. most likely, it was meant: 1) not titanium but still steel, 2) a new HAK, 3) most likely a new and compact reactor (traditional, and not on a liquid metal coolant), etc.

          I understand, but look at the French "Barracuda" - with very modest performance characteristics (23 knots, 350 m working depth, 4 * 533 TA 20 torpedoes and an unknown SAC has 4 tons of surface water. In general, doubts gnaw at me that we are in 750 3 we will meet
          1. 0
            16 January 2019 13: 00
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            In general, doubts gnaw me that we will meet the 3

            this is where our automation can help very well
    2. +4
      14 January 2019 16: 45
      Lira 2.0, as a project of Hunter, in the case of the implementation and production of a good series, in a relatively short time, is able to bridge the gaps in the issue of multipurpose nuclear submarines that we have now.[i] [/ i]
      Lira was still a rather expensive boat. especially considering the original, but scarcely complex reactor.
    3. +2
      14 January 2019 18: 33
      Quote: NEXUS
      Therefore, I think the solution is afloat is a project of the Lira submarine. If we say so, to modernize this project, to rework, taking into account modern realities, then we can get a new class of nuclear submarine-hunter, capable of solving most of the tasks that are assigned to multi-purpose nuclear submarines. At the same time, in the construction of such submarines will be faster implemented, the price again will certainly be, relatively reasonable. Lira 2.0, as a project of Hunter, in the case of the implementation and production of a good series, in a relatively short time, is able to bridge the gaps in the issue of multipurpose nuclear submarines that we have now.

      it’s not nonsense, it’s much worse ...
  10. -11
    14 January 2019 11: 01
    Even if the US attacked the Russian Federation and the war was waged only with conventional weapons, the Americans would not be able to win. Couch theorists dreaming of the might of the US military are sorely uninformed about the decline in the US military. Yes, the United States could have won if the skirmish was in some neutral zone - for example, the Russian Federation and the United States would "score an arrow" somewhere in a distant point, then the Americans would have won purely due to much higher troop transfer capabilities. But at our borders, the Americans would be at best a draw. Or rather, a draw with a taste of defeat, as their losses would have been much higher. Witnesses of the power of America, who have slept through the last 20 years of the degradation of the American army and the last 10 years of cardinal improvement of the RF Armed Forces, rest
    1. +10
      14 January 2019 11: 07
      Quote: Hypersound
      Witnesses of the power of America, overslept the last 20 years of degradation of the American army and the last 10 years of dramatic improvement of the Russian Armed Forces, rest

      Well, I don’t discuss religion. If Yegor seriously believes that 280 thousand Russian ground forces = 182 thousand KMP + 476 thousand US Army (without the National Guard) and that three hundred modern aircraft of the Russian Federation can stop thousands of US Air Force and Navy aircraft - this is his problem.
      Yegor, seriously, how do you manage to walk, do not stumble about noodles hanging from your ears?
      1. -10
        14 January 2019 11: 28
        What are 280 thousand land? : D What thousands of US aircraft (of which 47% are out of order) versus the 1800+ S-300 and S-400 and hundreds of Buk, Tori and Shell? What 300 modern aircraft do we have, if only 7 modern ones were delivered in the last 600 years? Alas, you, albeit unintentional, but a classic disinfectant
        1. +8
          14 January 2019 11: 42
          Quote: Hypersound
          What are 280 thousands of land?

          Did you miss the number of ground forces of the Russian Federation? :))))) What did you say about coma there? :))))
          Quote: Hypersound
          What thousands of US aircraft (of which 47% are defective)

          Not malfunctioning, but not ready for instant databases. Typically, for aviation, this figure is 65-75%, in the United States - in different ways, somewhere more, somewhere less. By the way, you probably think that we have combat ready 100% of the fleet? Naive:))))))
          Quote: Hypersound
          against 1800 +

          No, definitely in a coma since the days of the USSR. What 1800 with a plus? :)))) If you collect all the junk, including unmodernized Su-27 and Mig-29, you won’t get so much.
          But really combat-ready ... https://topwar.ru/130894-rossiya-protiv-nato-sootnoshenie-sil-taktichekoy-aviacii.html
          Quote: Hypersound
          What 300 modern aircraft do we have, if only in the last 7 years we have installed 600 modern ones?

          Detective victim of propaganda. In reality, we have about a hundred Su-35, about 130 Su-30 24 Mig-29KR (naval) and 109 Su-34
          1. -9
            14 January 2019 11: 53
            AHAHAHAHAHAH. I write to him about 1800+ S-300 and S-400, he answered me "what 1800 plus planes" wassat laughing

            Keep on burning lol
            1. +4
              14 January 2019 12: 24
              Quote: Hypersound
              AHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

              And the tantrum started :)))))
              1. +1
                14 January 2019 14: 27
                From 2008 of the year, 594 fighters of new construction were delivered, including 117 Su-34 and 109 Yak-130.
                1. +3
                  14 January 2019 14: 47
                  Quote: Tektor
                  From 2008 of the year, 594 fighters of new construction were delivered, including 117 Su-34 and 109 Yak-130.

                  To begin with, the Su-34 - well, it’s never been a fighter and cannot carry out its tasks, and the Yak-130 is generally a training aircraft that does not even have its own radar. As for the rest, then, as I said, Su-35 will be delivered 98 cars up to 2020 g (now smaller), Su-30 of all kinds only 130 cars, and deck MiG-29KUB and KUBR - 24 cars. That's all, there were no more fighters of the new construction.
                  The 594 figure of the aircraft can be justified if we consider the upgraded Su-27СМ1 / 3, MiG-31БМ aircraft in it, but these are not new aircraft, and the modernization of the SM is generally beggarly
            2. +1
              14 January 2019 18: 08
              Egor, I apologize of course, but I haven’t seen such freaks like you for a long time.
    2. -1
      14 January 2019 18: 48
      How I want to live in your parallel reality wassat laughing
  11. -4
    14 January 2019 11: 06
    And the reason here is quite simple - it's their price

    It surprises me the most. The Russian Federation, even under sanctions and a low oil price, received in 2018 to the already accrued $ 500 billion another $ +95 billion of excess income (the reserve reserve increased by 50 billion and the budget surplus amounted to 45 billion). What, well, what’s stopping from adding these 95 pardons of extra profit from adding just 2-3 pisses to the military budget? In addition to the rearmament program, 2 lard can be purchased, for example: +20 Su-57 every year and 200 Armat T-14. Another lard can be allocated to an additional submarine every year. Add. 3 lard a year - just a penny. Some creepy miser are sitting in Min. finance. But they could strengthen their troops even faster
    1. +1
      14 January 2019 12: 43
      I support my colleague, due to a fraction of the oil excess profits, it would be possible now to have modern ballistic missiles, air defense, air defense and FA - and already begin to engage in space, YES and the Navy drinks
      1. +1
        14 January 2019 16: 24
        Yes, and in the economy, you can throw 200-300 billion out of 500 into investments
  12. +1
    14 January 2019 11: 28
    Future submarines may be composite. Type, Kalina, around the back of which is fixed X-shaped 4 or more Poseidons. Part of the Poseidons can be with a torpedo warhead, i.e. have 3 torpedoes of 533 mm caliber. In peacetime, Poseidons can work as movers, and in war - they all separate from Kalina and go into autonomy, and Kalina will return under her own power to the base. Only viburnum should have a working depth of immersion below 600 m.
    1. +5
      14 January 2019 14: 43
      better at all as a transformer, I myself saw in a movie wink
  13. 0
    14 January 2019 12: 13
    If we talk about fantasies, then it is necessary to take into account the development trends of technology. Currently, there are two such trends: drones and a nuclear torpedo.
    Plus, there are remedies.
    Then, based on the author’s concept, instead of launching shafts, a replacement armament compartment is needed. T. Ye. A compartment in which, depending on the task, you can either put the same launch caliber, or push nuclear torpedoes, or a batch of drones, or something else. For example, the same hydrophones

    The task of reconnaissance is poorly illuminated in order to target other means of striking.
    1. +9
      14 January 2019 12: 56
      Quote: alstr
      The task of reconnaissance is poorly illuminated in order to target other means of striking.

      The submarine can do this only by accident, it is not intended for such
      Quote: alstr
      Currently, there are two such trends: drones and a nuclear torpedo.

      We need not trends, but the solution of the tasks before us. A nuclear torpedo, by the way, is stupidity and not a trend, and we
      1. -1
        14 January 2019 13: 48
        Well, why by chance. The problem statement.
        For example, a submarine to cover a deployment area must conduct reconnaissance of a particular sector.

        A nuclear torpedo can be our whim (which is not entirely true0. But the creation of an autonomous intelligence platform is a very necessary thing
        Drones to create an alert network will also come in handy.

        If you recall the fiction (space), then the algorithm of work is spelled out in detail. Enough to read the series about Honor.

        Those. the concept when the carrier scatters a system of sensors to monitor the space (in this case, water) is quite viable and feasible.
        There are questions of communication. This is where it is necessary to throw forces and means. ensuring uninterrupted communication in various environments is the main task of our science.
        1. +1
          14 January 2019 17: 05
          Quote: alstr
          For example, a submarine to cover a deployment area must conduct reconnaissance of a particular sector.

          It should, but its capabilities are limited, and it’s really difficult to transmit the received intelligence information in real time.
          Quote: alstr
          If you recall the fiction (space), then the algorithm of work is spelled out in detail. Enough to read the series about Honor.

          The only problem is that this is fantastic :)))))))) No, I have nothing against Harrington, but the "network of sensors" is, today, water buoys, towed antennae of ships, but with torpedoes this number won't work
          1. +1
            14 January 2019 17: 22
            Firstly, they themselves suggested imagining.
            Secondly: So I write: we need a compartment with interchangeable weapons, which, among other things, can include drones. Maybe they will be full-time weapons (such as torpedoes).
            Thirdly, the sensor network is not so fantastic. Offhand I can offer the simplest option. There is a drone. He has several sensors (the same hydrophones) on board. He is given a dumb task: to go along a given route and throw off the sensors at given points on the route.
            And then return to the given point, where he will be picked up.
            What is not feasible in this scenario now?
            1. +3
              14 January 2019 17: 53
              Quote: alstr
              Firstly, they themselves suggested imagining.

              So yes, but you have come too far to the point :))))
              Quote: alstr
              What is not feasible in this scenario now?

              Receiving data from these sensors and transferring them to the nuclear submarines. Besides, by similar actions (quite reasonable, by the way) you can puzzle the usual auxiliary ships of the fleet, the nuclear submarines are not needed for this
              1. 0
                14 January 2019 18: 52
                Well, which side to look at.
                Then you need to outline some kind of goal and stones to go.

                As for the siash, now this is a key issue that restrains drones. Moreover, the issue of communication must be resolved in the interests of all the armed forces. Therefore, whoever resolves this issue will receive a significant advantage.

                On the other hand, who said that it was the submarine that scattered the sensors that would collect data from them?
                It can be other ships and planes.

                With regard to the appropriateness of scattering sensors specifically submarines, the secrecy factor has not yet been canceled
              2. 0
                15 January 2019 03: 48
                The Americans are doing this ships and aircraft, quite successfully
      2. -1
        14 January 2019 15: 26
        Nuclear boats in the days of the USSR did not go to sea without nuclear torpedoes. For some reason I think that they don’t go even now. This is not a trend but a combat necessity. Shooting missiles in combat conditions at sea is suicide. A nuclear-powered Asrok will fly there immediately. But quietly reaching the line of attack with a nuclear torpedo is what you need. But for this one should be in the skin of a submariner himself. I do not know whether it was declassified or not, but there is a Soviet film about what a nuclear torpedo detonated in the port water does. This was done on Novaya Zemlya in the 50s.
        1. +2
          14 January 2019 15: 59
          Quote: indifferent
          Nuclear boats in the days of the USSR did not go to sea without atomic torpedoes. For some reason I think that now they do not go.

          Let's not interfere in one heap with a conventional torpedo with a nuclear warhead (the usefulness of which no one denies) and Poseidon
        2. +2
          14 January 2019 17: 46
          Quote: indifferent
          Nuclear boats in the days of the USSR did not go to sea without atomic torpedoes

          By the way, this factor was very ambiguous (especially for dieslungs)
          by the way, the calculations of the effectiveness of the ammunition showed that in most cases the ammunition with the YPP was LOSING to the non-nuclear;)

          as one who has been in the "skin of a submariner";) I will express my opinion - every nuclear CRASH is minus one TA for battle
      3. 0
        14 January 2019 17: 43
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The submarine can do this only by accident, it is not intended for such

        is intended
        both with us and amers
  14. +12
    14 January 2019 13: 54
    Is this what I saw in the comments for the trend? Militant pacifism? request

    When it comes to building surface ships for Russia, abundant poisoning usually begins - expensive, NKs have outlived their own, we do not need them, etc. God forbid about the aircraft carrier to stammer - in general srach will be. At the same time, there is an increased skirmishing on submarines - they say that this is the weapon of the future, we will build nuclear submarines and this will be enough for the fleet. Here, the author dared to say that the 3,5 nuclear submarine would not be enough even to carry out several tasks for the fleet - and there were already voices in favor of the fact that this is gigantism, too many, we don’t need so much, but we are wearing their caps, hats .... Interesting when will you reach the reduction of the army? Like, Russia does not need to have a large number of aircraft in the aerospace forces, it is only necessary to build new factories for the production of caps, and then we will defeat all, all if something happens? Although wait, it's already ...

    So it turns out such a strange militant pacifism. Militant - because his supporters behave militantly, and in general they seem to stand on the view that the armed forces of Russia are powerful, or at least should be like that. But pacifism is obtained in fact - give us smaller weapons, and a smaller army, and a smaller fleet, why do we need them, we have a nuclear club, we will defeat everyone with it. These are just mutually exclusive paragraphs that manage to exist in the minds of the same people.

    While Russia is pursuing an active foreign policy, while Russia wants to act as a center of power and behave independently, while Russia wants to remain a great power, it will need an army, a navy, and rather big ones. And nuclear submarines, and surface ships, and aircraft, and tanks, and in large quantities, even if you have to abandon all sorts of stupidities and wunderwafels in favor of simpler and cheaper, somewhat less effective, but much more massive samples. Because an active foreign policy, not supported by a powerful economy and / or army, is doomed to failure, and will never pay off.

    Although what am I talking about ...
  15. -6
    14 January 2019 14: 26
    I think it is unreasonable to reduce the effectiveness of such an important weapon as the APL .... where to get money for the first in the stabilization fund, but then the Amenkans will not allow you to save money on pointless surface ships, frigates and corvettes .... "Thus, from this information it follows that the contract value of the corvette "Zealous" (serial number 1007) of project 20380 is (excluding VAT) 17,24476 billion rubles, of the same type corvette "Strogiy" (serial number 1008) of project 20380 - 17,32976 billion rubles, and the contract value the head corvette "Daring" (serial number 2016) of the new project 1009 laid down in 20386 amounts to 29,080759 billion rubles. " "According to the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST), the minimum price of frigate 22350 is 18 billion rubles."
    1. -3
      14 January 2019 14: 28
      instead of a couple of unnecessary frigates of corvettes
      . can make one more necessary submarine
      1. +2
        14 January 2019 17: 25
        It is necessary to build both a surface and underwater fleet!
      2. +1
        14 January 2019 18: 10
        Quote: vladimir1155
        can make one more necessary submarine

        for starters, it’s nice to at least start eliminating their CRITICAL combat flaws
    2. +2
      14 January 2019 19: 04
      Apple without surface ships is utter nonsense. Trite at a conclusion from the place of basing in front of it the minesweeper is obliged to go. And what will you do with enemy interplanetary aviation ??? until Apple has learned how to deal with aviation, everything is exactly the opposite. Grouping NKs at times increases the combat stability of any Apple. If you are not able to cover the area of ​​action from aviation, then the crew will not even have time to understand when it was discovered and how it was allowed to sink.
      1. +1
        14 January 2019 19: 40
        I am for minesweepers supported by coastal aviation, and for the destruction of enemy ships to ensure the exit of nuclear submarines, also with the help of coastal aviation and coastal missile systems
        1. 0
          14 January 2019 19: 45
          "Today, Russia exports combat aircraft worth from $ 30 to $ 50 million, depending on their configuration." New equipment arrives, its cost is enormous - more than one billion rubles each aircraft costs: Su-30, Su-35, Su-34 " , - said Bondarev on the air of the TV channel "Russia-24". Aug. 12, 2014 " so instead of one frigate of dubious survivability and unknown purpose, vulnerable and slow-moving, you can make two dozen modern combat aircraft! and instead of two frigates, a whole nuclear submarine!
          1. 0
            15 January 2019 22: 39
            Half a billion frigate frigate? Where did you get this information?
            1. +2
              16 January 2019 00: 16
              Quote: Newone
              Half a billion frigate frigate? Where did you get this information?

              It flickered in the open press - 550 million dollars for Gorshkov
              1. 0
                16 January 2019 00: 19
                Well, here you need someone to beat on shaggy paws.
                Although, excuse me, this is a modern frigate, not a corvette. Previously, such a ship would be called a destroyer.
                1. 0
                  17 January 2019 09: 21
                  and even earlier, the cruiser "Aurora" - a cruiser of the 1st rank of the Baltic Fleet type "Diana". Named after ... 7130 t (full). Length, 126,8 m. Width, 16,8 m. Draft, 6,4 m. While 1800 tons it was coal
                  1. 0
                    17 January 2019 09: 25
                    "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov" - a frigate with a guided missile ... Displacement, 5400 tons (full). Length 135 m (longest).
  16. 0
    14 January 2019 14: 34
    in my opinion, the author needs to take into account that the possibilities of hitting the shore with Caliber are limited and Caliber, contrary to popular belief, is not an analogue of Tomahawk.
    This is due to the fact that the Caliber, unlike Tomahawk, has a simple radar seeker guidance for the final section, and this type of seeker has limited capabilities - it is suitable only for striking large detached radio contrast targets and has low noise immunity, in fact it is a seeker with anti-ship missiles, slightly adapted for shooting along the shore.
    In Syria, when hitting large buildings and hangars of local Papuans standing in the desert, the difference is not very relevant, but if a serious opponent places an object in the building, they put in elementary corner reflectors, a jamming satellite navigation, and even shooting traps like ship ones, then Caliber has accuracy non-nuclear performance will be big problems.
    Another major problem will be in reconnaissance and targeting in the Atlantic.
    With the quick start of the conflict, there will be a very large number of ships at sea, no boats and torpedoes will be enough to shoot at everything that moves.
    1. 0
      15 January 2019 22: 37
      In France they gave you all the information about "Caliber" :)
      1. -1
        16 January 2019 00: 52
        if you have other information about the type of GOS Caliber in the last section, sound it.
        https://topwar.ru/84318-benefis-kalibrov.html
        1. 0
          16 January 2019 01: 12
          Did you read the information on your own link?
          1. 0
            16 January 2019 01: 16
            read. what I described is a feature of all simple radar seekers when working on the ground.
            and the fact that it is "noise-immune" is only within the framework of this type of heads.
            in order to really work effectively on the earth, it must have a synthesized aperture.
            or optical, like the old Tomahawks.
            or both, like the newest latest version.
            She has neither one nor the other.
            1. 0
              16 January 2019 01: 21
              You read poorly. An inertial guidance system works on the ground. Simply because the targets of the attack are stationary objects: oil refineries, power plants, runways and airfield hangars. And no "synthesized aperture" is required from the word at all.
              1. 0
                16 January 2019 01: 30
                An inertial system with relief correction or satellite navigation data works in the middle section.
                at the last, accurate guidance is provided by the GOS.
                in existing Tomahawks it is optoelectronic with an additional infrared matrix.
                it is this head that provides high accuracy of hit, which is important for non-nuclear missiles.
                and if the radar seeker hitting "oil refineries, power plants" provides, then with the runway or an underground bunker, problems, they are not radio contrast. as well as with urban development problems.
                1. 0
                  16 January 2019 01: 40
                  Do not invent please. High accuracy of tomahawks is provided by GPS correction. For this, SUDDENLY GPS was developed.
                  Actually, on correction, our cousins ​​in Syria got caught :) And we got a couple of very whole samples.
                  1. -1
                    16 January 2019 01: 49
                    kindergarten, pants on the straps.
                    why do not you first ask about the essence of the matter?
                    at least read Wikipedia or something.
                    hi
                    1. 0
                      16 January 2019 02: 14
                      Address the previous question and advice to yourself.
  17. +3
    14 January 2019 14: 50
    But with nuclear boats, everything is not so simple - the very separation of multipurpose nuclear submarines into submarines and submarines created a different type of ship structure, which could not be welcomed, but in addition, the USSR also managed to simultaneously improve two types of submarines - with a conventional hull (project 671RTM / RTMK "Pike" and project 971 "Pike-B"), and with titanium (project 945 / 945A "Condor").

    Two and a half types - if you recall the hunters, pr. 705.
  18. -2
    14 January 2019 15: 15
    I do not understand why the editors of the site take for publication articles by authors who are very far from the topic of reasoning. I was most amused by the thesis that multi-purpose nuclear submarines are capable of delivering cargo to the required theaters of the theater. Well laughter. There is not enough space on the boats to place food for the crew at full autonomy. They load bags of flour directly into the aisles and walk carefully so as not to break. Canned food with potatoes, cabbage and pickled cucumbers are loaded into leveling tanks. There is simply no more space !!! There are not enough sleeping beds for the entire crew. They sleep at military posts. We had beds in the "Amethyst" post, the navigator electricians and even the special hold had their own enclosure, where they were strictly forbidden to sleep because of the high background gamma, especially at high power plant.
    About the speed of the "aftor" is also an amateur sticking out of all the cracks. Boats do not run at speeds over 12 knots. Their acoustics do not hear anything !!! When the boat accelerates to a speed of more than 18 knots, there was even a proverb, "Pan on your head and forward." You can't hear anything except your own noise, which means you can't see it! On the other hand, that at a speed of 31 knots, that at 35 knots, an aircraft carrier with an escort of nuclear ships and vessels cannot be caught up. He has cut 30 knots and drips. And helicopters listen to the sea. And the boat needs to drop the speed below 12, as I said, listen to find the AUG and again accelerate to 35 knots, drop again and accelerate again, and so on repeatedly. Will not catch up for anything! Checked more than once. Hence, the output of a speed of more than 25 knots is useless for boats. This is enough to dodge the torpedo. Moreover, imitators are still needed to hide behind their noise. Any submarine can unmask its "howl" at 35 nodes. What can I say, but on one and a half or two-hull boats, noise does not matter. Just the opposite. Double-hulls are easier to make low-noise. But the buoyancy margin of the double-hull is higher. This can only be appreciated by a real submariner. The same applies to water cannons. Only professionals know that water cannons are noisier than conventional propellers and making them quieter is much more difficult than conventional propellers. The Author has such blunders at every step, and that's why I finish here. Otherwise, you will have to write a lot for each sentence.
    1. +3
      14 January 2019 15: 44
      Quote: indifferent
      I was amused most of all by the thesis that nuclear multipurpose boats are capable of delivering goods to the necessary areas of the theater of military operations.

      PMSM, this is an "echo of war" - this task for submarines remained from the time of the blockade of Sevastopol.
      1. 0
        14 January 2019 16: 01
        and shelling of the coast with guns was carried out with an effect close to zero.
    2. +2
      14 January 2019 16: 03
      Quote: indifferent
      I was amused most of all by the thesis that nuclear multipurpose boats are capable of delivering goods to the necessary areas of the theater of military operations. Well laugh

      However, such tasks were taken into account. Oddly enough
      Quote: indifferent
      About the speed of the "aftor" is also a dilettante sticking out of all the cracks. Boats do not run at speeds over 12 knots.

      What the author wrote about
      It is well known that at such high-speed modes even the most low-noise submarines turn into “roaring cows” whose noise is heard across half the ocean, and in a combat situation the submarines will never walk at such speeds. For a submarine, not the "maximum" speed, but the maximum speed of low-noise speed is of much greater importance, but it usually does not exceed 20 nodes in modern nuclear submarines, and in 3-generation boats it amounted to 6-11 nodes at all.

      What's the “expert” problem? Are you unable to read 8 A4 sheets? Is it so difficult for you to understand what is written? Or is the criticism itch so strong that just to blurt out something in the commentary?
      1. 0
        14 January 2019 18: 05
        Today's brigades have enough heavy weapons and other things for a division of 10 or even 15. The infantry is just not enough. I suspect that this "half-frame" is. Before a big war, you can mobilize the people, and deploy 280 thousand into a million. The BMP, however, probably will not get many. Well, the Germans did all the blitzkriegs on trucks)
    3. +3
      14 January 2019 18: 09
      Quote: indifferent
      Hence the conclusion of speed of more than 25 knots to boats is useless.


      "sit down, deuce"
      TACTICS
      ;)
      they increased speed to 949 knots by 35 (from 26uz Skatov)

      Quote: indifferent
      Double hulls are easier to make low noise

      don't bullshit hurt her

      Quote: indifferent
      But the buoyancy in double hulls is higher. Only a real submariner can appreciate it.

      rather illiterate submariner;)
      because it is not the "stock" that drives it but the SPEED

      etc.
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. -1
      23 January 2019 01: 05
      that nuclear multipurpose boats are capable of delivering goods to the right areas
      So it depends on whose, what goods and where.
      But the boat needs to slow down below 12, as I said, listen to find the ACG and again accelerate to 35 knots, reset again and again accelerate and so many times. Will not catch up for anything!
      Here he has nothing else to do))) "Orion" will pull out, or "Viking" will get it. And SOSUS also does not sleep. Because of such clever people, our boats and stealth are incompatible concepts.
  19. +2
    14 January 2019 16: 00
    ABROAD FOR 2 PIECES SAWING AND MYSELF ONE 5 YEARS WE BUILD
    1. +2
      14 January 2019 18: 23
      Because from abroad, the rulers get their favorite dollars for these boats, and when they build themselves, they don’t get a nifig, but on the contrary, the workers have to pay something.
  20. 0
    14 January 2019 17: 05
    the one that we’ll go to fight already and the fracture doesn’t hurt
  21. +6
    14 January 2019 17: 15
    Quote: NEXUS
    Projects of the submarine "Malyutka" were very effective, despite their size and small base.

    do not share the source of wisdom? smacks of cannabis ... bully
  22. -1
    14 January 2019 17: 21
    To my mind, bothering with simulators for submarines that tend to be low noise, it's about how to simulate fifth-generation stealth aircraft, it is futile. But to think of electronic warfare in an underwater war even to the level of electronic warfare in an air war seems to me tempting.
  23. 0
    14 January 2019 17: 21
    What should be the multipurpose submarine of the Russian Navy? A little sofa analytics Such Ash-M then Husky
  24. -1
    14 January 2019 17: 42
    If you start from the beginning, i.e. with tasks then:
    1. It is very important, but it is decided in our fortresses such as the White or Okhotsk seas
    2. No doubt
    3. "Everything is clear here" By no means ... we do not have the strength to solve it far in the oceans and are not supposed to, but at a distance of up to 1,5 thousand km it is better solved by aviation ... see dagger soldier
    4. This task is best solved by destroying ports ... bully
    5. exotic ... this task is for strategic forces ...
    Thus, if the submarine tasks are reduced, then the submarine type can be changed - reducing the problem to 2:
    a) a small number of super submarines of the Ash type for all tasks and prestige ... hi
    b) for real tasks (1-2 and partly 3,4,5) it is necessary to build small submarines based on diesel-electric submarines (3-4 kt) with electric propulsion, but with a nuclear reactor of low power to power on-board equipment, life support systems and a little noise (about 1 MW). for sharp maneuvers, there should be a regular battery that is charged in the base and can be recharged if necessary from a diesel generator.
    Such submarines can serve under water for a long time, be very quiet and at the same time have a cost close to diesel-electric submarines, having the same armament — torpedoes, mines, and calibers.
    A nuclear reactor is used only during the threatened period and wartime, to save a resource and avoid reloading ... Education is like DEPL. In my opinion, the reactor can be built according to the cellular scheme, using as a basis reactors for space satellites legends and the like, i.e. on thermal converters (about 50kW) ...
  25. -2
    14 January 2019 17: 54
    What a vile call-up advertisement on a patriotic site!
  26. +3
    14 January 2019 17: 58
    Well, well, what do you think, how much cheaper will Ash give up launching missiles? If doubled, then, of course, this is a reasonable decision. And if 10-15 percent, then no, it’s better to leave. Still, it adds great firepower. A successful salvo of 32 heavy anti-ship missiles can generally predetermine a victory in a conflict. If it’s not about the third world, of course.
  27. +1
    14 January 2019 18: 04
    the joke is that my first NOC job at the VVMU was the substantiation of the KRO "exposed" to the water;)

    however, the article (especially against the background of the previous ones is very, very worthy) "leaves much to be desired" :(
    information for thought:
    http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=764&p=32#p1166837
    the same answer at https://topwar.ru/149631-o-kollapse-vmf-rf-i-novyh-sposobah-obnaruzhenija-podvodnyh-lodok.html
    By the way, the story with "Orion" on the Northern Fleet was not 1988. and not earlier than 1996

    well and very "interesting" looking Andrey's reasoning about "good Ash" and "bad AGPD", despite the fact that SPMB "Malakhit" is the parent organization in the Russian Federation, incl. on self-defense complexes
    what Lutsky wrote about (about the extremely low efficiency of what goes to the 4th generation) is the observer "Malachite"
    and now a simple question - "is everything all right with Ash?"
    and so "okay" that on "Ash-M" had to SO "chicken the body"
  28. +2
    14 January 2019 18: 30
    To build submarine nuclear powered ships with crews for a hundred people worth a billion dollars or more, but not to provide them with the means of setting "underwater jamming" is not even a mistake, it is a state crime.

    Absolutely right. Therefore, you need to build cheap dap. And more. Considering the possibility of launching the aircraft through torpedo tubes, the option is chic. Moreover, two types are small for protecting coastal zones (type 207 is a good example) and large for fighting communications.
    1. +2
      14 January 2019 18: 43
      Quote: Demagogue
      Therefore, you need to build cheap dap.

      1. Do you think that they "do not need" PTZ funds?
      2. What makes you think that they are "cheap"?
      3. By 207 - I agree
      1. 0
        14 January 2019 18: 56
        1. Do you think that they "do not need" PTZ funds?
        We need of course, only one thing if the adversary will sink the expensive apl, and another thing - type 207. Plus, you can take a number in your waters by number.
        2. What makes you think that they are "cheap"?
        With serial release, of course. For example, the Ula class cost 250 million for the lead and 110 for serial boats. Wikipedia in the end gives even 86 million per boat. And in the article, the author announces 1.5 billion for one apl. So even a dozen Ul will be much more effective than one Ashen many times.
        1. +1
          14 January 2019 19: 02
          Quote: Demagogue
          Plus, you can take a number in your waters.

          "Will we throw corpses"?

          Quote: Demagogue
          Wikipedia in the end gives even 86 million per boat. And in the article, the author announces 1.5 billion for one apl. So even a dozen ul will be much more effective

          and Americans and Angles and French did not just refuse DEPL
          and the Americans worked on issues of duel situations of submarines with diesel-electric submarines from the 50s
          1. +1
            14 January 2019 19: 13
            "Will we throw corpses"?

            And what are the options for technological lag? But you simplify the situation, the same Ula-class in its waters can create problems with the numerical superiority and with a numerical margin. I remember there were some teachings of the Norwegians with Nata, where their duel performed quite effectively.
            and Americans and Angles and French did not just refuse DEPL
            and the Americans worked on issues of duel situations of submarines with diesel-electric submarines from the 50s

            I doubt that the effectiveness of Ula-class 0.1 from C. Wolfe say. If you saturate your fortress with such a dungeon, the adversary will think many times before poking around there. And it seems to me a big mistake to prepare the fleet for antagonism from the United States. And what if the conflict is with Japan? Local say, like the Falklands. And there the opponents have a dap ...
            1. +2
              14 January 2019 19: 22
              Quote: Demagogue
              And what are the options for technological lag?

              to do NORMALLY
              the first successful tests of the same anti-torpedo were carried out by WE - in 1998
              at the same time they repeated it only ... in 2013.
              could not? could!
              just ALL that was on this topic was actually sabotage

              Quote: Demagogue
              I doubt that the effectiveness of Ula-class 0.1 from C. Wolfe say.

              briefly - Sivulf will bury her
              1. 0
                14 January 2019 19: 42
                could not? could!
                just ALL that was on this topic was actually sabotage


                The weakness of the social structure is also a technological lag. Could ... But could not. And if we can, then Ula with PTZ versus Apple is already very real.

                briefly - Sivulf will bury her


                Shit happens. Suppose Sivulf dug our Street. The street was hanging out in its waters with a snorkel and we know where this happened. We drive there several planes, a couple of Ul and cover the wolf. Will there be an equally valuable exchange? We have 100 million, and the Americans have lost 3 yards. Pawns in the game are also needed.
                1. +1
                  14 January 2019 19: 55
                  Quote: Demagogue
                  Pawns in the game are also needed.

                  Need
                  however, the problem is much more complicated than the primitive "1d10"
                  IMHO the construction of diesel-electric submarines for the Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet has long been impractical
                  especially considering the backlog of VAU-6
                  the best AIP for NAPL is AED;)
                  1. +1
                    14 January 2019 20: 21
                    Quite possible. When I say a dap, out of habit I mean napl. The result is one: napl obviously look more advantageous. Given that we at least keep our fortresses, then we need to build exactly napl. And apl is more of an attack weapon. And I suspect that an excessive burden for our economy in commodity quantities.
                    1. 0
                      14 January 2019 20: 25
                      Quote: Demagogue
                      The result is one: napl obviously look more advantageous.

                      WOW-6 of this "Dollezhal's egg";)
                      hammer in the search for project 651E
                      1. 0
                        14 January 2019 20: 43
                        Quote: mina024
                        WOW-6 of this "Dollezhal's egg";)
                        hammer in the search for project 651E


                        Why not. There is something in this idea. Everything is better than sweeping 1.5 yards into an unknown animal such as Ash. Which then sinks the Norwegian Ula penny, because drunk PTZ.
  29. +3
    14 January 2019 19: 15
    Admit it, gentlemen - who cast Mina's Challenge? wink
  30. +1
    14 January 2019 19: 24
    Hello, Andrey.
    And if you try to proceed in the calculations not from Wishlist, but from opportunities? Specifically: Russia's defense budget is $ 46 billion in 19, while the share of military spending in the total US budget in 2019 will be 14,9%, in Russia this figure will be 17% - which means the budget has nowhere to grow.
    Further, every year we spend from $ 15 to $ 20 billion on the content of strategic nuclear forces — the data on the network is diverse. We will take 16. In total, $ 30 billion remains for the air forces, army and navy.
    Let us assume that a third will be allocated to the fleet, namely $ 10 billion (not really but a dream). The number is googled on the network that only 10-30% of expenses are spent on the purchase of new equipment, the rest is the current infrastructure maintenance, personnel, etc.
    We get that per year we can spend on purchases for the 3 fleet, well, let 5 billion.
    Now let's estimate how much our country can afford to have aircraft carriers, nuclear powered ships, etc. for the money.
    I think we all need to understand that today's Russia is not the Union - we are a poor third world country. France has a military budget close to ours. But she does not have to spend so much on strategic nuclear forces. Therefore, let's take a closer look at its fleet - it seems to me the maximum that Russia can afford in the foreseeable future in terms of quantitative composition.
    1. -1
      14 January 2019 20: 42
      Quote: ValVal
      And if you try to proceed in the calculations not from Wishlist, but from opportunities?

      in a pencil, I'm leaning towards option 677 or Kalina with a nuclear power plant ...
    2. +1
      15 January 2019 07: 38
      Quote: ValVal
      We get that per year we can spend on purchases for the 3 fleet, well, let 5 billion.
      Now let's estimate how much our country can afford to have aircraft carriers, nuclear powered ships, etc. for the money.

      Well, let's. To begin with, your numbers are incorrect. But God bless him, we take the figure of 4 billion purchases annually.
      The warship service cycle today is about 40-45 years, but we will take 40. Suppose that of the 4 billion 75% indicated by you that can be directed specifically to ships. Total, during the 40-year life cycle, we can spend 120 billion dollars. What?
      500 aircraft - 50 million dollars / piece = 25 billion dollars
      12 SSBN 0,8 billion dollars / unit = 9,6 billion dollars
      30 nuclear submarines 1 billion dollars / unit = 30 billion
      30 DEPL 0,4 billion dollars / pcs = 12 billion dollars
      40 corvettes 0,25 billion pcs = 10 billion dollars
      3 aircraft carrier at 5 billion units = 15 billion dollars
      18 destroyers for 1 billion dollars / unit = 18 billion dollars
      TOTAL - 119,6 billion dollars
      Here is the fleet that we can afford at the expenses you specify
      1. 0
        15 January 2019 10: 22
        Hello, Andrey.
        Thanks for the detailed answer.
        The figures on military expenditures (naturally, without breakdown by articles) were announced by the president at the last board of the defense ministry in December - I don’t provide links, but it’s easy to google. My costs for strategic nuclear forces were taken very optimistically (they are traditionally more open in the USA and are estimated at 60-100bn. $ Annually), due to the parity achieved with them and given our zoo in this matter and endless investments in the development of more and more samples, the final figures should not differ much. It is clear that part of the expenses is spent on other budget items (Rosatom, etc.) but still. Further, we must take into account the costs of maintaining the world's 2nd satellite constellation, and this is with the 7th largest defense budget. Wars in Ukraine and Syria. So, I think that the order of costs for acquiring new equipment for the Navy was taken by me with a fair optimistic margin.
        Next, according to your numbers, the cost of ammunition must be added to the cost of the equipment itself. And for 40 years of the product life cycle, this is still at least one price.
        Regarding the construction price you quoted - I think for modern products for which R&D was carried out in modern Russia and cannot be attributed to the costs incurred during the USSR, the price of a copy of military equipment and weapons will approximately correspond to similar imported samples. But rather, even more expensive. Here I mean images of weapons that are obviously not inferior to analogues. Take a look - VPK companies buy machine tools and equipment on the general market, materials are also purchased there and staff are hired (yes, our salaries are five times lower, but labor productivity differs by about the same five times), low energy costs are compensated by climate and poorly developed energy conservation, but about loans and a guaranteed order for a large batch of products, and so everything is clear. Competitors have, firstly, economies of scale, and secondly, cooperation is highly developed (that is, you don’t need to develop your own gun, but you can take the finished best Rheinmetal gun, etc.). You can refer to government contract data, but firstly we only know the initial cost without final numbers, and secondly we cannot be sure that the final product matches the best world analogues (it is hard to believe that it can be better and cheaper, otherwise the world would be littered with Russian iPhones).
        The total question is what tasks will be solved by those 12-15 nuclear submarines that we will build in 40 years and which, by their characteristics, will most likely not fully meet their opponents? Maybe you should focus on some of the allocated areas and invest all the money there? What if it turns out like with PAK FA - they developed it, but there is no money to be expected to be launched into mass production.
        PS Please excuse me for the long post and have a nice day.
        1. +1
          15 January 2019 12: 45
          Quote: ValVal
          The figures on military spending (of course, without breakdown by articles) were announced by the president at the last board of the defense ministry in December - I don’t provide links but it’s easy to google

          No less easy to google another - GVP 2018-2027 of the order of 19 trillion, this, at the rate of 60 rub / dollar = 316 billion dollars for 10 years or 31,6 billion a year. These funds are distributed approximately evenly between the Strategic Missile Forces, land detachments, airborne forces, airborne forces and the fleet. Total - about 6,33 billion dollars per fleet.
          Quote: ValVal
          Next, according to your numbers, the cost of ammunition must be added to the cost of the equipment itself. And for 40 years of the product life cycle, this is still at least one price.

          Are you sure that the cost of ships does not include the cost of ammunition?
          Quote: ValVal
          Regarding the construction price you quoted - I think for modern products for which R&D was carried out in modern Russia and cannot be attributed to the costs incurred during the USSR, the price of a copy of military equipment and weapons will approximately correspond to similar imported models

          It won’t, it’s absolutely certain. You don’t think that we spent more than 50 billion dollars on the development of the PAK FA, and they were seriously engaged in it already in this century
          1. +2
            15 January 2019 14: 27
            As for the GPV, one should look at the actual budget for each year, and not Wishlist for 10 years in advance. GPV 11-20 also assumed the allocation of 20 trillion, and in fact it was first extended to 24 years, and then gradually replaced with the newly adopted one.
            The armament is of course included, and the ammunition is purchased separately several times during the life cycle of the ship (consumables with a correspondingly incomparable shelf life)
            According to PAK FA: according to the latest reports of the Accounts Chamber, the development of the MS-21 will rise to about 500 billion rubles. up to 25 years. This is about $ 8 billion - and what is the level of localization? And this is the civilian side! That is, the PAK FA will cost just those very 50 billion. $. And the fact that we have not spent them yet - and in fact there is no aircraft yet (second stage engine, AFAR, etc.)
            In the fleet, an example with the Ash trees is indicative: before the year 20, 8 ships, then 7, and now 2, were to be handed over, and now 190 in the best case. Question - what hindered? Polement did not like Redoubt (or vice versa), A-11, Dawn Mashproekt? Maybe at this time the surface fleet was being intensively built and all the resources went there? Where are fleet money from GPV 20-XNUMX spent?
            PS I looked at your articles - thank you very much, I enjoyed reading it a lot. It’s honestly not even convenient for me to take your time with my posts.
            1. 0
              15 January 2019 15: 38
              Quote: ValVal
              PS I looked at your articles - thank you very much, I enjoyed reading it a lot. It’s honestly not even convenient for me to take your time with my posts

              Dear Valery, thank you very much for your kind words. In turn, I note that it is never difficult for me to answer reasonable objections, as well as to have a discussion with a cultured person, which you are, without a doubt, the one. It often happens that in such conversations I discover something new for myself and change my point of view under the influence of the facts presented by my interlocutor.
              Quote: ValVal
              According to PAK FA: according to the latest reports of the Accounts Chamber, the development of MS-21 will stand at 500bn. until 25 year. This is about 8 billion. $ - and what is the level of localization?

              Let's clarify :))))) https://finance.rambler.ru/markets/41447537-ms-21-gotov-k-zhestkoy-posadke/?updated
              The total budget of the MS-21 project as of September 1 in the Accounts Chamber was estimated at 438 billion rubles, of which 158,3 billion rubles. already spent, and 279,1 billion rubles. to be invested in 2018 – 2025 years. It is reported by Rambler.

              That is, still not about 500, but 438 billion.
              required to increase costs in all areas of investment: almost doubled, up to 77 billion rubles. - for the re-equipment of enterprises, doubled, up to 181 billion rubles. - for development work (OKR).

              That is, even 438 billion is not R&D, but all the costs of the program except for the actual manufacture of aircraft, and R&D went to just 181 billion, or about 3 billion. Do you agree? :)
              Quote: ValVal
              That is, PAK FA will cost exactly those same 50bn. $. And the fact that we have not spent them yet - and in fact there is no aircraft yet (second stage engine, AFAR, etc.)

              Hello :)))) AFAR is there a long time ago, the plane is completely ready with the engines of the 1 stage
              Quote: ValVal
              In the fleet, an example with the Ash trees is indicative: before 20 years, 8 ships, then 7, and now 2, were to be delivered first, at best. Question - what hindered?

              Our production capabilities, alas.
              1. +1
                16 January 2019 12: 09
                Hello, Andrey.
                Sorry, but there’s no way to respond promptly.
                Ashes - good, let them pump up production capabilities. But according to nuclear powered ships under repair or awaiting it, there is no justification for your paradigm, alas. For this, it was possible to start up the money overhang that was formed from the disruption of the GPV in almost all other Fleet programs, with the exception of the strategic nuclear forces and with reservations. Why didn’t this happen?
                According to MS-21 - there the level of localization and the used know-how are not striking, plus we look at the report of the Accounts Chamber in a year or two :)
                PAK FA - well-developed for serial production, satisfying the AFAR customer - well, accepted. The whole program - we will converge on $ 35 billion and the life cycle cost of goods produced in a commodity quantity of $ 500 billion :))
                At parity prices equivalent quality products - take any engineering product made in our country and you will make sure that the price will be comparable. The military-industrial complex works under the same conditions, if not worse. there is
                exceptional
                China, where there are good credit conditions (what is the ratio of debt to GDP now?), State export support policies, a free attitude to other people's intellectual property, a disregard for the environment and cheap labor (until recently). Of all the above, we, unfortunately, have only a disregard for our nature and property of others.
                According to GPV, the logic of decision-makers is approximately the following - now there is no money, in order not to completely lose competence in design and production, just to save the backbones of teams, let's load them with at least some work. Hence the constant design and redesign of something difficult to implement and permanently occupied shipyard stocks with a meager output of finished products. That is, the task is not to build a fleet, but to maintain competencies! To the question when there will be money, the answer is when the oil will be 200. The question is, when will it be 200, the answer is soon. The question is, and if not, the answer is sure to be.
                The question is maybe Plan B, the answer is why do we need Plan B if we have it soon! required !! oil will be 200 !!!
                We are a unique country - we still have the opportunity to design and build ships and ships, but there is no longer any chance to purchase them for our Fleet!
                Allow me to summarize: I think you have obtained a wonderful series of articles about the present and future of our Navy. Surely many responsible comrades read your articles the same way and use them as some kind of independent analytics. In addition, the expert audience gathered on this resource always supports and supplements the authors of the articles with effective comments. In general, and if I still try to consider the development of the Fleet not from the point of view I want, but still closer to I can (within the framework of a very limited budget, so to speak). Thanks in advance.
                PS one more excuse me for another opus with many letters - the answers to your comments mystically drive me into irrepressible graphomania. In an age of total lack of time, this is unacceptable. So, from now on, I undertake to more thoroughly approach the figures quoted.
  31. -3
    14 January 2019 20: 13
    Quote: NEXUS
    Source to the studio. Here is a foreign source that writes about MK50 ..

    Zaya, this is not a "source" but a Source
    and you will "demand" from your ducks
  32. -1
    14 January 2019 20: 23
    Quote: NEXUS
    I already said above. The main thing is the comparative price, plus the lack of means of intercepting such a robot.

    YOU DID NOT "SAID", YOU DISPUTED
    and interception tools have existed since the Cold War
  33. +1
    15 January 2019 00: 17
    Quote: jjj
    And in the mid-nineties of the last century, "Club" was already sold abroad

    The first sales began in 2003.
    • India. Talvar-class frigates (2 in 2003, 1 in 2004, 2 in 2012, 1 in 2013) with these complexes
    • India. Frigates of the "Shivalik" class (1 in 2010, 2 in 2011) with these complexes
    • Vietnam. Project 116661E (2 in 2011, 2 in 2018)

    Submarines were sold with Caliber missiles - only Project 636M (since 2004) and Project 636.1 (since 2013). Buyers - China, Vietnam, Algeria

    Quote: Hypersound
    Keep sleeping in parallel reality

    And you continue to fantasize. And the further you go, the more irrepressible your fantasies become ...

    Quote: Alex_59
    Officers without personnel, yeah. Who will volunteer to serve there? Obviously not a man who set the goal of life to become a military officer and dreaming of growth to general epaulettes. They sent there who got there (nobody will give the shot from the combat unit of a normal officer).

    Well, not really without personnel. Father served in such a division - 25 division to them. IN AND. Chapaeva - the city of Lubny, Poltava region (Kiev Military District) from 1961 to EMNIP to 191074. Arrived as a major, quit as a colonel. And no one exiled. I got there for a replacement from the GSVG. He graduated from the Academy, and even 2 years was a military adviser in Mongolia.
    The service was like everyone else. And outfits, from the doctrine. Only in the division, for example, the artillery regiment consisted of one division (2 others were only designated). Tank Regiment - from one battalion. Well, etc.

    Quote: lopuhan2006
    Naive half the country that pasta does not know how to shoot ....

    And you don’t have to shoot. Rather, if you want them to be hanged - another thing. And so it is best to buy a cap with three peaks (two side). Then they’ll definitely not hang laughing

    Quote: Corn
    These are only conditional calculations, which may not overlap with reality, but the author did not even give such.

    Very conditional. You do not have a torpedo, then a target defeat. And the fact that both our and their boats are imitators and in the amount of more than one piece, which are designed to lead a torpedo, you most likely do not consider this. That a boat may try to evade your two-torpedo salvo with a high degree of probability using its own countermeasures is not important to you either. That is why 10 torpedo tubes - the most important thing for you here. And how many torpedoes are needed to drown an enemy boat in such a dueling situation - no one will tell you. Maybe it will cost two, as you wrote, or maybe eight.
  34. +2
    15 January 2019 11: 50
    The author, Andrey from Chelyabinsk, is growing as a writer. There are practically no "nagging" about the article. On the first, it is true, he stole my photo of the boat I took with the Il-38, but that is the same))) But in the photo with the Baton, you can see my house, where he used to live and could watch the output of forces with binoculars.)))
    The only puncture- One of the main tasks of multipurpose submarines is to combat the US Navy SSBNs. In my time, the 45th division of Rear Admiral GORDEEV Igor Ivanovich was very closely engaged in this.
    This was written here.
    http://artofwar.ru/w/werjuzhskij_n_a/mugutext_0010.shtml
    Also in the book of the submarine commander Dudko "Heroes of Bangor".
    Either the author ignores the existence of such a task, or it is removed (which is unlikely). And so, yes, it’s written quite normally.
    Recommend.
    1. +2
      15 January 2019 12: 33
      Quote: Alex-333
      At first, however, he stole my photo of a boat taken by me from IL-38, but then take)))

      I apologize, pulled from an Internet
      Quote: Alex-333
      The only puncture- One of the main tasks of multipurpose submarines is to combat the US Navy SSBNs.

      As if yes, it was necessary to describe this moment in more detail, but for me it "went" into the concept of anti-submarine warfare.
      Thank you!
      1. +2
        15 January 2019 12: 49
        Come on ... That's me ... I dumped them on the Balance as far as hundreds. Publish if necessary. This is a series from 11.06.2004/XNUMX/XNUMX with the crew of Sani Salenko.
        1. +2
          15 January 2019 13: 13
          Thank you so much! Next time, I will always try to mention you as the author of the photo (if I understand that I am using yours).
          Photos, by the way, are simply amazing.
  35. 0
    15 January 2019 12: 08
    Quote: mina024
    with these Murzilka - to DUCKS

    Max from Alex)))
    Yes, you leave him alone, nerves are more expensive. I have always been a supporter, and 5 years ago on the Balancer I proposed to keep data-What I graduated from, the Supreme Administrative Court, the last place of service-title-position.
    And then start a serious dialogue.
    And so .... People laugh? To do educational work?
    1. +3
      15 January 2019 16: 55
      What I graduated, VUS, the last place of service-title-position.

      Unfortunately, this can not always serve as a reinforced concrete criterion. I had a chance to communicate with characters who have everything as good as that, but in life .... So they’re worse than shkolota .... Again, the interlocutor might not serve at all, but work in some tricky shop, type license plate (once))) SKB .... And, accordingly, to know quite a lot.
  36. -2
    15 January 2019 19: 50
    The article is such that in the Stalin era, the author would receive an article for wrecking :)
    1. The author in his article writes about an unsuccessful decision in the USSR: the presence of two types of ships, the SSBN and the SLBM, and in his own project, he suggests reviving the SLBM and returning to the two types of ships that perform the same tasks.
    2. The author appeals to the lack of money, but offers to additionally spend money on the design of a new boat and the re-equipment of the shipyards for a new project.
    3. The author knowingly or not consciously underestimates the role of paragraph 5 in the tasks of the MAPL. This is despite the fact that these tasks, as well as clauses 3 and 4 of the MAPL, are performed most efficiently of all forces and means of the armed forces, with the exception of strategic weapons.
    4. The author overestimates the capabilities of MAPL in paragraph 1. DEPL and coastal aviation in the conditions of the existing basing and deployment areas of the SSBNs fulfill task 1 more efficiently. Due to the much lower noise level, diesel-electric submarines are better able to detect enemy aplos, helicopters with ASGs are better in contact with the enemy nuclear submarines, and anti-aircraft planes are much more effective at destroying enemy apls.
    The dueling capabilities of our MAPLs are objectively worse: they are even slightly noisier, the GAS most likely also has slightly worse characteristics than the American ones, torpedo weapons in a dueling situation are worse (there was an article which is much worse), sonar trap simulators are most likely worse (historically, they were definitely worse).
    5. The author ignores the probable possibility of using highly effective means of attack, such as the 9M723 quasibalistic missiles (OTRK Iskander M), already existing from UVP.
    6. The author ignores the need to maximize a missile salvo in order to effectively overcome the air defense / missile defense system.
    From the above it follows that the author of the article proposes, by dramatically reducing the attacking capabilities of MAPL, to slightly increase the ability of a group of domestic MAPLs to solve the problems of anti-submarine warfare.
    The proposed changes drastically DEPLETE the capabilities of the domestic MAPL group to inflict unacceptable damage on the aggressor, and at the same time DO NOT solve the problem of radically correcting the situation of PLO defense of the base and deployment of SSBN defense areas.
    1. 0
      16 January 2019 12: 55
      Quote: Newone
      DEPL due to much less noise detect enemy apl

      what Semenov wrote about the ratio of detection ranges between Warsaw and elk - similar to what experienced Warsaw commanders told me
      and texture has nothing to do with popular prints about "black holes"
      especially given the fact that the Americans from the 50s practiced PLA tactics against diesel-electric submarines and were preparing to simply SHOOT them


      Quote: Newone
      GAS helicopters have better contact with the enemy nuclear submarines

      than? ancient and poor PPP ("before the first LF GPA")
      or "fig with poppy" in the form of "Ros-V (M)"?
      1. 0
        16 January 2019 18: 00
        taking into account the fact that Americans from the 50s practiced PLA tactics against diesel-electric submarines and prepared to simply SHOOT them


        Which tactics? When to shoot? When Warsaw is covering the strategist’s exit at the base, trying to get to the Atlantic? Patrolling the fortress? Was Warsaw alone in these scenarios? Or in conjunction with ships, planes? If the head is on the shoulders, you can work out oncoming tactics. And stupidly rely on the prodigy ....
      2. 0
        16 January 2019 21: 28
        By the way, it seems to me that for the crush in the straits near the Kuril Islands, which described Semenov, Warsaw is too expensive and overall option. Norway designed its Ula-class for similar conditions and made it much easier, four times. And three times cheaper ... It seems to me the perfect option for our fleet. And Warsaw is for export. And instead of them cheap apl.
        Quote: mina024
        Semenov
  37. -3
    15 January 2019 22: 36
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    500 aircraft - 50 million dollars / piece = 25 billion dollars
    12 SSBN 0,8 billion dollars / unit = 9,6 billion dollars
    30 nuclear submarines 1 billion dollars / unit = 30 billion
    30 DEPL 0,4 billion dollars / pcs = 12 billion dollars
    40 corvettes 0,25 billion pcs = 10 billion dollars
    3 aircraft carrier at 5 billion units = 15 billion dollars
    18 destroyers for 1 billion dollars / unit = 18 billion dollars
    TOTAL - 119,6 billion dollars


    The death star is still forgotten ... Without it, we can not defeat the Americans in the nuclear apocalypse.

    Yes, just to park the whole economy you need to build 120 billion of infrastructure. Concrete is not enough in the country. As in the 30s, it will be necessary to limit the use of metal for domestic needs, all for victory. Metal fences will have to be abandoned. To recruit crews and service staff, we will call students. For three years...
    1. 0
      16 January 2019 00: 17
      Building the fleet and especially the infrastructure for the fleet is not money going nowhere. This is a huge "growth driver" of the economy. And half a trillion dollars is already idle.
      1. 0
        16 January 2019 10: 11
        Building the fleet and especially the infrastructure for the fleet is not money going nowhere. This is a huge "growth driver" of the economy.

        "Take it by yourself, so as not to fall when walking")))
        We are struggling to update and repair our existing fleet. Industry capabilities simply do not allow such a program to be implemented. "We need real plans." Solve the issue with minesweepers, pl and drlo aviation for a start. Put into service the pakfa. Without protection from mines, mines and air supremacy in their fortresses there is nothing to catch. There will be all this, and you can think about more. And these lists of ships are pure projection.
        1. +2
          16 January 2019 10: 26
          Quote: Demagogue
          All this will be, and you can think about more. And these ship lists are pure projection.

          I was asked a specific question - which fleet can we build on available funds? I gave an equally specific answer. Moreover, if you have not noticed, it will be 40 years to build this fleet, and not tomorrow. So your words about projection are completely incomprehensible
          1. 0
            16 January 2019 10: 40
            At the same time, if you have not noticed, it’s 40 years to build this fleet, and not tomorrow.

            And what does that change? We have gdp like turkey. We will not pull the contents of this fleet, even if we build. We will not pull the infrastructure for him, the ships will have nowhere to repair, etc.
            Remember the saying about the best way to bankrupt a Latin American state?
            1. 0
              16 January 2019 14: 39
              "We have GDP like Turkey."
              Why are you lying?
              https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDPD@WEO/RUS/TUR
              According to the IMF:
              GDP / GDP at PPP of Turkey - 631,16 / 2370 billion dollars
              GDP / GDP at PPP of Russia - 1650/4350 billion dollars

              Infrastructure construction: moorings, docks, shipyards do not overexert the existing infrastructure, but strengthen it and save money in the future. And the construction of this infrastructure is possible exclusively on its own, there is nothing technologically super-duper there. At the same time, the development of such infrastructure is directly related to the development of the shipbuilding industry, which in itself can become a driver of further growth.
    2. -1
      23 January 2019 01: 13
      That's all waiting for someone to mature to answer. Look at the classes and quantity. Relate to 1985. The author’s speech isReturn what it was!. Infrastructure was available. The same Bechevinka and Old Zavoyko in Kamchatka.
      And the money ... Do not spend Soch. Olympiad (51 lard), in Syria, but not butt, and with Ukraine, there will be bulk money.
      1. 0
        23 January 2019 09: 41
        -Return what it was !.

        How? We are now spending more than many states on defense in %% of GDP, reducing the effectiveness of our economy. I would say that current spending is already the limit. We urgently need to cut taxes before the economy collapses. As the USSR, we will definitely not be able to splurge.
        Billions at the Olympics are nothing at all, the Olympics have passed and that’s it. Well, a couple of extra stadiums remained on the balance sheet. But ships and infrastructure must be maintained, and tens of thousands of healthy men to be involved there. And they can benefit the economy.
        I would not want to delve into the political debate.

        If we invest additionally, then more likely in research and development. And now, at sea, all aviation decides, this is the Falkland War showed. If you invest additionally, then in it.
        1. -2
          23 January 2019 14: 18
          Maybe you are right. Then they took not quantity, but quantity. With KOH 0,6 they were given 0,25 at best.
          But no one will reduce the sea borders and will not take off the tasks.
          Appetites if reduced))) What is being done, due to the small fleet.
          And the Olympics in the sub-tropics? ... well, I don’t know. Objects in Moscow, after 1980, have not yet been attached.
          I’m talking about the amount that then provided some parity.
          1. -3
            26 January 2019 09: 24
            I will correct myself. The first "Ohio" drove to the Pacific Fleet in the tail and mane. Bringing up to 3-4 BS per year per boat (KOH was 0,66-0,7). With a change of crews at Pearl. Then he let it go. For years there were up to 30 trips. With ours up to 10. Ohio cycle 90 days BS and 20 change. Ours also blocked time (K-433 1984-80 days K-506 1983-79 days). If you count everything. Because sometimes they were cunning. The boat in Rybachye was on duty. Kind of like a BS. But without departing from the pier. (K-433 2006-2007.K-223 1985, 2009.K-506 2006).
            If you add Project 667 B
            K-366 6 autonomous vehicles (1974-1993)
            K-417 9 autonomous vehicles (1976-1995)
            K-477 13 autonomous vehicles (1975-1995)
            K-500 13 autonomous vehicles (1977-2000)
  38. -2
    16 January 2019 01: 01
    Quote: indifferent
    When the boat accelerates to a speed of more than 18 knots, there was even a proverb, "Pan on your head and forward." You can't hear anything except your own noise, which means you can't see it!


    Now such computer noise reduction systems that you download. In ordinary commercial headphones, the metro noise is crushed without problems. And the military will probably be better. So your own noise can not be a problem.
  39. 0
    16 January 2019 14: 59
    Quote: Newone
    "We have GDP like Turkey."
    Why are you lying?
    https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDPD@WEO/RUS/TUR
    According to the IMF:
    GDP / GDP at PPP of Turkey - 631,16 / 2370 billion dollars
    GDP / GDP at PPP of Russia - 1650/4350 billion dollars

    Infrastructure construction: moorings, docks, shipyards do not overexert the existing infrastructure, but strengthen it and save money in the future. And the construction of this infrastructure is possible exclusively on its own, there is nothing technologically super-duper there. At the same time, the development of such infrastructure is directly related to the development of the shipbuilding industry, which in itself can become a driver of further growth.


    And I thought if there was enough "smart" who wanted to count the figures of the GDP)) and straight "you are lying"))
    We are discussing a shipbuilding program for 40 years here, and according to forecasts in 15 years Turkey will overtake Russia. And if you think that 1.5 Turkish GDP or one Australian will allow you to build such fleets as the author suggests, then you are very mistaken. If there were a three times more gdp, as Japan would say, then maybe.
    And the shipbuilding industry is not coping with the flow. And these drivers are not visible. Do not feed the horse.
    1. 0
      20 January 2019 01: 50
      If you're lying, then you're a liar. It is incorrect to give forecast GDP values ​​40 years in advance as current values.
      And the shipbuilding industry is not coping with the flow.
      It (shipbuilding industry) has not yet been invested normally.
      1. 0
        20 January 2019 05: 13
        If you are so for the accuracy of the numbers, define "normal". So far, all you are suggesting is building more ships and more infrastructure. For the repair of these ships to be paid by the taxpayer. Or maybe it is better to lower taxes so that this money goes to light industry, etc. Get real economic growth. And then the USSR won out.
        1. 0
          21 January 2019 00: 29
          "State program" Development of shipbuilding and technology for the development of offshore fields for 2013-2030 "" - Find, read, enlighten. There, everything is chewed up in detail with numbers. I will not give a specific optimization of the numbers for the current situation, this is a big work in which I am an amateur.
          1. 0
            21 January 2019 09: 34
            What does this piece of paper have to do with the subject of discussion? The volume of fleet construction that the author offers goes far beyond the scope of existing programs and is not implemented. In our country, a huge number of able-bodied people in the country make no contribution to the GDP. They sit in the guard, the Russian Guard, the army, the FSB, the FSO, etc. And you and the author suggest tens of thousands more to the fleet to drive and claim that this will become some kind of drivers. Everything should be in moderation.
  40. +2
    17 January 2019 20: 00
    By dimension, multipurpose nuclear submarines should return to the dimensions of Pike in 5-6 thousand tons.
    Modern technology and the level of automation will allow you to place the necessary mechanisms and weapons in a smaller building.
    At least Russia should find funds for a series of 12-14 more budgetary, but no less effective multipurpose nuclear submarines.
  41. +1
    17 January 2019 21: 49
    Dear Andrey, here finally I got some time for comment ..
    The analytics is good, as almost always with you (more precisely, it is always good in almost everything)). Some disadvantages have already been noted by colleagues, eg. it is not emphasized that for multipurpose nuclear submarines, the MAIN task is to fight against similar enemy multipurpose nuclear submarines and "strategists" (yes, Russian boats can also be on duty at the exits of enemy bases! in a threat period) And since amers have stupidly more boats, I think before " attacks on convoys "and so on. It won't work))
    In the light of this, your attitude towards cheaper prices and mass production is quite fair. Only I do not know how much to reduce the cost of "cutting" the mines so that it is worth it. No matter how it turns out that having reduced the possibilities of the pr. By half, a 5-7% reduction in price was obtained (but the pitchfork increased in Cyprus)) The prices you quoted for UVP are not "market" and it is also possible that there is a high proportion of "design" work (again, see Cyprus )). It cannot be that the cell is worth more than the most complex products, which interfere with it (especially for surface ones).
    So 25-30 pcs. pl. there are probably not many boats, even under the condition that the notorious "provision of patrol areas" by SSBNs is done by diesel "hunters" - this is not far from the bases, but they are quieter.
    By the way, since economics are required, here it is! Why are "strategists" nuclear at all? Rayoni patr. close to their bases and move quickly in them is not required, enough to drift. There they are guarded by their own hunters, (shore.) Aircraft, surface ships .. After all, they do not plan to creep up to the shores of Virginia in order to inflict a disarmament on bistrias. blow)) And if they plan, then already laid down will suffice. Here, the new ones may well be diesel (instead of part of the ground moving ones, or when the number of heads is set to 3-4 thousand))
    ps Also it is not clear to me how the "one and a half frame" reduces the noise?
    1. +1
      18 January 2019 14: 27
      it is not clear how the "one and a half body" reduces the noise?

      The lightweight body, in fact, is an independent resonator, and it responds more readily to internal vibrations and external influences (for example, sonar irradiation).
      About DEPL (better with VNEU) I completely agree.
      1. 0
        18 January 2019 20: 36
        ... he is more likely to respond to external influences (e.g. sonar irradiation)

        I doubt that this is the case, because the sonar receives the reflected signal (it’s difficult to determine the range if there is resonance). The harder the surface, the better the reflection, so the submarines are covered with a soft layer.
        Lightweight body, in fact, an independent resonator, and internal vibration

        Yes, but not so much internal noise, but perhaps the fact is that between the buildings the designers have a lot of units and systems (possibly noisy), which is not (conditionally) "one-body". Their plus - less VI, minus - less VI)) i.e. buoyancy reserve.
        About DEPL (better with VNEU) I completely agree

        Yes, although with VNEU let there be "hunters", and for "strategists" in a guarded puddle, the usual will be enough.
  42. 0
    20 January 2019 15: 23
    In fact, the author described what I heard about the promising project "Husky". Less dimension than that of "Ash", reduced (or excluded) missile armament, maximum stealth and, most importantly, should be much cheaper than Project 885. I apologize if I repeated someone's words. I have not mastered 200+ comments.
  43. -1
    26 January 2020 21: 31
    “... Multipurpose nuclear submarines of the Yasen and Yasen-M type will undoubtedly become the milestone ships of our Navy, they are quite successful, but, alas, they are not suitable for the role of the prospect of a multipurpose nuclear submarine of the Russian Navy. ... "Andrei from Chelyabinsk has much more as usual!
    the author of these lines, Andrei from Chelyabinsk, is apparently sitting on something as a fence or you need to check the material that is being prepared for him. He writes a lot in the military review of articles on various types of weapons in so much detail (to the cog) often it is not necessary, but in the end everything is past, the meaning of the material does not fit and is smeared due to unnecessary details, sometimes reaching the point of absurdity. It seems that his material is intended simply for amateurs. It's just an amazing "ability" to pick up so much material and not dock it. In general, because of such "prose writers" the professionalism and prestige of the publication falls greatly.