Who and how terrible is the Chinese navy?

121


If you subscribe to the Russian-language version of the Chinese newspaper Jenmin Ribao, then, in addition to the beautiful (real) photos from the fields and plants, you can also catch what we would call propaganda in the style of “don't touch me.”



Messages specifically about the launching / commissioning of new ships of large classes flashed there constantly. Not as editorials, but still.

Knowledgeable experts (without quotes) say that the PRC does not just build a huge fleet, but implements the world's largest naval construction program. And it is quite possible that it is China that will lead the maritime arms race in the near future.

Here the question immediately arises: against whom will China be friends with so many ships? And how serious are the PRC's naval forces, not quantitatively, but qualitatively?

That is, with which fleet will need to compare the PLA Navy: Russian, American, Japanese, Indian?

It’s probably worth starting with a quantitative and qualitative assessment.

Surface fleet. He seems to be more visible, so it’s worth starting with.

Aircraft carriers. List two, but there are nuances. One is the completed “Varyag” TAVKR, that is, it is not at all like classmates, the second is, in principle, the same “Varyag”, but tucked into a Chinese copier. Therefore, “Shandong” turned out to be better than “Liaoning” / “Varyag”, at least it carries ten more aircraft and is not viewed as a training ship.



In general - one and a half. But the Chinese are accelerating the pace (good, they know how) are building the third aircraft carrier. Which will be quite an aircraft carrier, because it will install a catapult with all the consequences.

Destroyers. 37 units. Strength. Moreover, even the oldest, “Lyuda”, which are essentially our 41 project, were built in the beginning of the 70 of the last century. In fact, at the level of our theoretically. On the practice later.



This is without taking into account the new 055 project ships, which are similar to the Zamvolt.

Frigates. 71 unit. The backbone, of course, ships projects 054 / 054, but the rest is nothing like that.

Who and how terrible is the Chinese navy?


Corvettes. 41 unit and built on.



Amphibious assault ships.



UDC "Tsinchenshan" (project 071). 4 units. "Mistral" or something like that. Helicopter carrier, commander, hospital and so on.

BDK. 25 units.
KFOR. 15 units.
MDK. 46 units.



Boats and other small vessels will not be considered, there are many of them. Even very much.

Underwater fleet.

Jin submarine of 094 / 094A project. 4 units. It is worth noting that the boats are mildly fresh.



Plus one SSBN project 092 "Xia", on the move, after upgrading, but still the last century. It is possible that the role of the training ship was prepared for it, taking into account the TENG 096 project being built, they may be disposed of.

Talking about multipurpose nuclear submarines is difficult. At present, China is re-equipping this class of ships, and there is a lot of confusion in reports and statistics.

At a minimum, there are still three submarines of the 091 "Han" project in service. There were five, but two were definitely disabled and replaced with the next generation boats.

The next generation is the submarine of the 093 Shan project.



To date, 4 units, two upgraded to version 093A, then the boats will be built on the project 093В. In 2017, the PLA Navy received two such submarines. As a result, the total number of multi-purpose submarines in the fleet is 9 units.

It seems to be not so much, but 14 (13) nuclear submarines - this is the level of Britain. There, too, 4 SSBNs and 9 (6 in the ranks and 3 are under construction) of multi-purpose submarines. The level, however ...

Non-nuclear submarines of the PLA Navy is generally the most! 53 units (not exactly).

Here, however, the choice is very difficult. From the frankly old submarines on the basis of the Russian 633 “Romeo”, “Paltusov” and “Varshavyanok” projects already produced in Russia to the newest submarines of the 039A / B project, which are a funny alliance of our 636 project and the Swedish power plant from the Gotland submarine.

The number in the 53 boat is not accurate. In the same year, 2017, the submarine fleet received at least three boats of the 039 project, but there is no exact information about how many old ones were written off (they should have been written off by some of the ancients). Therefore, the number of diesel-electric submarines can range from 53 to 56.

It seems that there is a complete order. Ships are building, and building at a truly communist pace. Each year, the amount of delivered tonnage increases, from 40 000 tons in 2017 to 80 000 tons in 2018.

You should not compare the possibilities of Chinese shipbuilding and, say, Russian. Everything will be very sad look. The PRC is not yet the USA (yet), but not ours anymore. Sad but true.

But not all. Speaking about the quantitative state, not yet said a word about quality. And worth it.

It is no secret for anyone that the main method used by Chinese designers for any military equipment in principle is the reverse engineering method. If simpler, then cloning.

The method, in principle, tested, in it the Chinese are really masters. But there are unpleasant moments. In order to copy / clone something, it is necessary to have it as a sample. And, if it turned out quite well with the aircraft carrier (the purchase of Varyag from Ukraine is of a type for a floating casino), then there are things that even Ukraine cannot sell. Just because of the lack thereof.

And that which is, do not get any tricks and tricks. Just because the owners themselves need.

Therefore, despite the presence of the same submarine in China, everything is not so rosy. If you believe the American intelligence service, the ONI naval service, which does not get out of the region, then even the most modern submarines of the 094 and 093 projects are much inferior even to Soviet third-generation counterparts, boats of the 667БДР and 671РТМК projects.

Meanwhile, fourth-generation submarines are in service and are being successfully built, representing significant hemorrhoids even for Americans. This is paradoxical, but for some reason for all the time of the collapse of the Soviet military industry, enterprises producing nuclear submarines suffered the least. What is not something that does not please, but causes puppy delight.

As a result, we have “Severodvinsk” of the project 855 “Ash” and “Borei” of the project 955. The Chinese have nothing of the kind and will not have it even in the future for the next 15-20 years.



I observed information from time to time that the People's Republic of China would soon begin large-scale construction of a nuclear submarine, but I think that we should treat it as our nuclear-powered rocket. Languages ​​there, why not say?

It’s absolutely not worth arguing that the Chinese have both finance and production base. Here is another nuance: there is something to build, there is where to build. There is no answer to the question “what to build?” The technology of tomorrow in China is not very. Otherwise, what's the point in direct copying of all foreign technology, which you can reach?

No, for example, rockets and Tanks Chinese-made quite imagined. But still, there is a difference between a missile (albeit anti-ship) and an atomic submarine carrier of such missiles.

A sudden breakthrough in Chinese science? Somehow I do not really believe it. Rather, I believe in the mass buying up of brains around the world for the yuan. Faster out, but more expensive. Brains (their), they are in China. And strangers ...

So China has a nuclear fleet, but ... But it will still be a fleet of the "second grade", with whom neither compare. Yes, bye, but nonetheless.

It is worth noting, once talking about the submarine, and the situation with non-nuclear boats. There, too, not everything is as beautiful as the Chinese would like. In general, they are great, after the Swedes and Japanese mastered the Stirling engine. But on the Chinese boats there is a “copier” from the Swedish engine already the first generation (80-s of the last century), while on the “Gotlands” there are already engines of the third generation.

I don’t know in detail what the Japanese have on the nine litters of the “Litter” project from the Kawasaki, but there is some certainty that the Japanese themselves could do it in Stirling, without copying something.

And a vivid example of the fact that Chinese boats are not the height of perfection is the behavior of the representatives of the naval forces of Pakistan and Thailand, who expressed a desire to buy low-noise boats of the 041 Yuan project, but they don’t rush to put money on the table.

Meanwhile, China nashtampoval already 15 of such boats and with might and main uses them. Perhaps, “Yuan” for export is a matter of time and price. And what is the price from China, no need to explain.



I want to say very briefly about aircraft carrier ships. Yes, nashtampuyut, good, inexpensive. Improve, good, able. But still it will remain the TAVKRs of the Soviet project 70-ies of the last century.

But the ship itself is only half the battle. There is also the second half - weapons and means of detection and protection. And here, too, not everything is rosy and with fireworks.

Literally 70 years ago, the value and power of a ship was determined by many parameters, such as armor, speed, magnitude of the main caliber, firing range, accuracy, and so on.

Today's day changes the approach to evaluation. And today, the main indicator for the main majority of strike ships is how much they can take on anti-ship missiles and how quickly these missiles can launch. And of course, the performance characteristics of the missiles themselves.

With this, the Chinese sailors seem to be in order, but everything looks in general perspective. There are rockets. But ... Begin the nuances.

Sadly, the armed forces of the Chinese Navy (and not only the Navy, as it were) have nothing of a domestic development. No need to go far and look, probably, 90% of the entire military potential is a "copier".

Take anti-ship missiles for a demonstration.

The most common Chinese-made CRP is the subsonic YJ-83.



A good rocket, as it is in fact the French Exocet, which has become a well-deserved classic, more precisely, its modification MM.40 blok 3 with a turbojet engine instead of a solid propellant.

YJ-62. Also subsonic, it's hard to say who is in the fathers, is similar to both the Soviet X-55 and Tomahawk.



Rockets are made with an eye on quite high quality weaponbut 70s of the last century.

There are newer models. YJ-18 and CX-1, already supersonic. It is difficult to say who they were “ripped off” from, but experts pay attention to the abundance of common features of the Chinese CX-1 and our “Yakhont”, which the Onyx and Brahmos П-800 are.

It seems that Russia did not sell the development and the missiles themselves to China, but here ... Export versions of Yakhont were supplied to Syria, Indonesia and Vietnam. Someone could well share for the goodness of his soul, or — then my congratulations — the Chinese intelligence clearly worked.

In general, it is so possible to consider everything for a long time. In fact, all that is in service with the PLA Navy is “copiers”. This can be attributed to all weapons standing on ships. Anti-aircraft missiles, radar, underwater acoustics, anti-submarine weapons, EW ... Everything was copied from some foreign samples.

I do not want to say that all imported goods are obviously bad. Especially Russian weapons. Not. But it is generally accepted that export models are somewhat different from the originals. Will be easier. And they see not so far, and fly not so fast. Well, you understand.

And there are things that are not sold at all. And in Ukraine they can not be ...

In the case of hostilities with a technically developed power, it may well turn out that all Chinese weapons will be an order of magnitude worse than that against which they will have to fight. And this is already a serious matter, as exemplified by the conflict over the Falkland Islands between advanced Britain and so-so Argentina.

Build a huge pile of ships - this is the first part of the case. The second part is to arm them. The third is to turn the armed corps into warships. The third part - the most difficult, as you know.

Here again it is a sin not to cite the example of “Liaoning”, or rather, a bunch of accidents and incidents on it. If in a nutshell - the Russian cruiser stubbornly does not want to be friends with almost Russian aircraft. This is the J-15 carrier-based fighter - this is an improved and modified Su-33 (thanks to the Ukrainians, supplied with the ship), which is still Su-27K.



Superior aircraft do not wish to board the improved cruiser. J-15 was a very problematic aircraft with an unstable control system, which led to a number of accidents and catastrophes. And, according to the available information, in China they have already sat down to work out a replacement for the frankly unsuccessful deck creation.



Well, another carnation. The Chinese fleet has no experience of fighting either above water, under water, or in the air. That is, it is, but ...

Even in World War II, the Chinese would not have fought. Japan defeated them too quickly. Yes, in the 50-s of the last century there were operations to seize territories, in 70-s China was kicking with Vietnam for the Paracel Islands, in 80-s they captured territories in the Spratly archipelago.

In general - local amphibious operations.

This is not about “the thunder of victory, resound,” no. About own practices in fleet management. About Experience with a capital letter.

The experience of managing large ship formations, the experience of deploying continuous tracking of ships of a potential enemy, the experience of submarine operations at a considerable distance from their bases ...

In general, what the fleets of the USA and the USSR have been working on for years during the Cold War. And this experience did not sink into the abyss, he remained in the manuals, manuals and recommendations. In the textbooks for students of the respective faculties of the academies.

Of course, you can all buy / steal / snake. A matter of effect.

And most importantly. Why does China need such a fleet?

Perhaps that is why I put the question in the title of the article. Difficult to correctly understand and respond.

On the one hand, it is clear that China will not go into direct conflict with its neighbors today. Islands and islands are not worth it to unleash even a local war. Today, China is just able to buy.

Moreover, China is constantly in front of the example of Russia, which for the quite legitimate accession of the Crimea has ogrebla sanctions on most tomatoes. To go and conquer territories in today's China is unlikely to occur to anyone. Here its would keep, by and large.

Well, really, the scraps of sushi like Spratly and Senkaku are not worth it. Not uniquely Crimea.

I think it’s not worth talking about an attempt to gain domination in the World Ocean. For only the attempt of such a rebellion will be followed by the appearance of all possible US forces, together with the allies. And here the option "China against all" is unlikely to be appropriate.

But the control over the adjacent territories, and especially the Indian Ocean, through which the lion's share of oil supplies to China from the Middle East goes, is quite.

Energy security is serious today and tomorrow is vital. Here, the reason why such rapid construction of warships of various (especially large) classes began in the PRC looks quite reasonable.

The fleet, which is guaranteed to protect China from the sea blockade or invasion from the sea. Of course, the idea of ​​attacking a country with such a population and military potential looks fantastic, but the sea and land blockade is quite.



To underestimate a potential adversary is deadly dangerous, to overestimate is economically unprofitable. I do not set a goal to somehow humiliate the sea power of the Chinese fleet, I just think that it is necessary to treat it a little more skeptical. The amount of tonnage, which grows the PLA fleet, causes respect. The quality leaves much to be desired.

Perhaps, in order for the PLA Navy to become truly on the same level with the fleets of the leading world powers, it is even worth reviewing its policy in terms of scientific and technical activities.

Based on:
https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/195967.html
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-5-most-lethal-navies-armies-air-forces-the-planet-17779
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  1. +4
    3 August 2018 05: 15
    I think it makes sense to draw a parallel with the history of Soviet tank construction. It was not possible to create full-fledged combat vehicles on our own, so we went, as they say now, by cloning foreign models ...

    As Chinese shipbuilders evolve, Chinese sailors are gaining experience ...
    1. +14
      3 August 2018 10: 36
      Quote: tasha
      I think it makes sense to draw a parallel with the history of Soviet tank building.
      It is possible and so, the T-28 was "peeped" by the British ("Vikkers", 16 ton), the T-26 was created on the basis of what was bought from the English ("Vikkers MKE"), the BT series started from the Christie tank, you can recall earlier, the T-18 (MC-1) was a replica of the French Renault tank. However, completely and from the naval theme there are examples where our cooperation before the war with the Italians gave destroyers and light cruisers. There is nothing special in it, the same Tu-4 was a copy of the American B-29, the P-1 rocket is a copy of the Fow-2, the basis of the Mi-4 helicopter was taken by the American H-19. All this is history, from which it would be useful to draw conclusions. Unfortunately, while we scoff at Chinese copies, they are improving, and even as a copy, with worse characteristics, the Chinese can put 5-10 "copies" on each of our "original". If we talk about the fleet, here our surface fleet is already lagging behind the Chinese, if the Chinese begin to create quite modern submarines, their advantage will be obvious both in the number of fleet combat units and in its infrastructure, specialists, technologies, and shipyards. Less would our buy-sell encouraged to develop someone else's, for the minute-by-minute "candy wrappers". For many years, the Soviet scientific and technical base has been created, including in copying, borrowing, and cooperation that is beneficial for us. Now we give more from our experience and technologies, from the Soviet margin of safety, in exchange for our burzhuins, they mostly just scoop up the currency without receiving new technologies, new foreign technology samples for study. The same Chinese "brothers", having ripped off our developments, are not in a hurry to share their experience, show new developments, preferring to squeeze out the remnants of the great Soviet heritage from Russia.
      1. +3
        3 August 2018 11: 54
        Yes exactly. It is criminal to treat the great Soviet legacy so mediocre. What to do?
        1. +10
          3 August 2018 12: 09
          Quote: Bogatyrev
          What to do?

        2. +2
          3 August 2018 21: 05
          Recognize yourself as a class and begin to defend your class interests.
      2. +7
        3 August 2018 12: 23
        Quote: Per se.
        T-18 (MS-1) was a copy of the French tank Renault

        Let me cry: T-18 was an adaptation to our capabilities of the Italian Fiat-3000, which itself was an adaptation to the Italian capabilities of the French Renault FT. smile
    2. -1
      4 August 2018 22: 13
      Quote: tasha
      I think it makes sense to draw a parallel with the history of Soviet tank construction. It was not possible to create full-fledged combat vehicles on our own, so we went, as they say now, by cloning foreign models ...

      =======
      Do you mean the T-34 and KV ??? bully
      1. 0
        13 October 2018 20: 57
        Quote: venik
        Do you mean the T-34 and KV ???
        He means T-18 - T-28 ... I would say about the T-34 ...
        However, our tanks are heavily redesigned and rethought (except for BT, perhaps).
    3. 0
      6 August 2018 14: 58
      I think it makes sense to draw a parallel with the history of Soviet tank building.

      But if you continue the excursion into the history of Soviet tank construction? Yes, and draw a parallel with China.
      Doesn’t come up with any thoughts?
  2. +6
    3 August 2018 06: 04
    The Chinese fleet still beats quantity, but the quantity sooner or later turns into quality ...
    1. +5
      3 August 2018 08: 28
      quantity will sooner or later turn into quality ...

      miss RCC, take protection of equipment and ships from electronic warfare / electronic warfare. Passive protection - we have the only Kolchuginsky plant produces a grid from microwave radiation. Active defense - REP, this is a series of different complexes for various media, from platoon to army level. Neither in the USA, NATO, nor in China, nor anything like that.
      which costs only EW Murmansk-BN with a range of 5000 km.
  3. +7
    3 August 2018 07: 20
    UDC "Qinchenshan" (project 071). 4 units. Mistral or something like that.

    Rather, an analogue of the American type "San Antonio".
    1. +1
      3 August 2018 07: 35
      quite right, the mistral is a slightly different type of ship ...
      1. +1
        4 August 2018 02: 40
        Donetsk.
        Persistent rumors were circulating, including in the Chinese press, about China’s readiness and desire to build up to 20 frigates for the Russian Navy, under our armament and equipment ... Our press rustled that they agreed on eight ... It was good -the solution would be to intercept on lack of fish, while their engines were pulled up, while the Amursky Plant returned competencies. And the rest of the shipyards - God forbid more health and gas turbines to complete what is rusting on the slipways ...
        1. +5
          4 August 2018 02: 43
          Donetsk.
          And also to the admin. Help to change the flag - the Bandera rag is annoying, but I myself can’t do it by old age.
          With hope and respect.
          1. +1
            4 August 2018 02: 43
            Preferably in Soviet.
            1. 0
              4 August 2018 11: 05
              Click on the square in the upper right corner, go to "My profile", click "change profile", at the very bottom there is a "country adjustment". There, and choose at least the Crimea, even the USSR.
          2. +2
            4 August 2018 13: 29
            Quote: bayard
            Help change the flag - the Bandera rag is annoying,

            Admins position you in the place of stay - Ukraine. And your flag is state, Ukrainian, legal and legitimate.
            But the Bandera (rebel) nationalist flag looks different: this is a red-black banner in equal
            proportions placed horizontally.
  4. +5
    3 August 2018 07: 35
    Who and how terrible is the Chinese navy?
    Yes, first of all, to us, the Russian Federation.
    1. +5
      3 August 2018 11: 39
      Do not carry nonsense. China is absolutely not dangerous for Russia. For China, Russia is a strategic ally. And China has no reason to attack Russia. There is no need here to bring nonsense about the "capture of the Far East by the Chinese." Who needs this piece of frozen earth? Spending on its development will be more profit. The main enemy of China is Japan, and just the Chinese fleet is needed in case of war with Japan.
      1. +5
        3 August 2018 12: 52
        And I think so too, Kitpa's main enemy is Japan !!! hi
        1. +2
          3 August 2018 14: 14
          Now the main enemy of China is the USA. This is the only country that seriously threatens China.
          As for the beloved enemy, this is India - China constantly butts with it.
          The remaining enemies are more situational, including Japan.
        2. +3
          4 August 2018 02: 51
          Donetsk.
          With the growth of opportunities, appetites grow, but intentions ... today they are not, and tomorrow come. But are China's opportunities growing, and if America suddenly collapses (the collapse of the financial system, the political crisis right up to the Civil War)? And where will all this power unfold - not sea, but in general? Well, if to Australia ...
      2. +9
        3 August 2018 13: 28
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        Do not carry rubbish.
        Kuzma, right hand on clipping give?
        “A letter to the learned neighbor” by Anton Pavlovich Chekhov.
        "Don troops are a retired sergeant of nobles" Vasily Semi-Bulatov - writes to his neighbor:
        “You wrote and printed in your clever text, as Fr. told me. Gerasim, that there are black specks on the greatest luminary in the sun. It can not be, because it can never be.
        We have already “made friends” with Germany until June 1941 in the West, how many Chinese nationalists will be “allies” to us, the question is, with their territorial claims to all neighboring countries and the hidden bet on world hegemony.
        1. +3
          3 August 2018 14: 46
          Quote: Per se.
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Do not carry rubbish.
          Kuzma, right hand on clipping give?
          “A letter to the learned neighbor” by Anton Pavlovich Chekhov.
          "Don troops are a retired sergeant of nobles" Vasily Semi-Bulatov - writes to his neighbor:
          “You wrote and printed in your clever text, as Fr. told me. Gerasim, that there are black specks on the greatest luminary in the sun. It can not be, because it can never be.
          We have already “made friends” with Germany until June 1941 in the West, how many Chinese nationalists will be “allies” to us, the question is, with their territorial claims to all neighboring countries and the hidden bet on world hegemony.

          I would not be in a hurry to unconditionally trust the dragon - a mythical creature, but I do not trust such
        2. +4
          3 August 2018 18: 20
          Quote: Per se.
          We were already "friends" with Germany until June 1941

          It's just your illiterate fantasies, the USSR was not friends with the Third Reich.
          1. +1
            3 August 2018 19: 43
            Quote: Setrac
            It's just your illiterate fantasies, the USSR was not friends with the Third Reich.
            No, these are not my illiterate fantasies, you presumptuous our "witness" of the Flood. The USSR had a rather long time of cooperation with Germany, and it was officially stated at the time about the “friendship of blood held together”.
            1. +1
              3 August 2018 20: 11
              Quote: Per se.
              You are our "witness" of the Flood

              Your evidence is false, as are you yourself. Read the crap that is written in this unknowingly than under the number 355.
              1. 0
                3 August 2018 22: 26
                Quote: Setrac
                The evidence is false as you are.
                To be rude, Seryozha, do not, and poke strangers. “Crap” was in the newspaper “Pravda” from 25 December 1939 of the year. If there is not enough culture to communicate normally, all the best, “son”, there is not the slightest desire to continue any conversation with such individuals.
                1. +3
                  4 August 2018 03: 32
                  These are your fantasies, read by liberal authors and Rezun. The USSR NEVER was friends with Hitler's Germany. Chop yourself this on your nose: the USSR was not an ally of Hitler's Germany. Yes, a non-aggression pact was signed, but the Poles signed the same pact in 1934, and Britain and France in 1938 after the Munich agreement. But for some reason, you liberals do not like to talk about it, or you do not know corny because of your ignorance, and you also cannot distinguish between the Non-Aggression Pact and the Union Treaty.
                  1. +1
                    4 August 2018 09: 56
                    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                    These are your fantasies, have been read by liberal authors and Rezun.
                    Kuzma, and you too, do not bother to delve into the context of the comment, immediately the "fountain" of indignation, as if you get special rights in your hurray-patriotism, you can become self-justified in moral "lynching". First, they were "friends" in my quotes, and the meaning is added to our relations with Germany. Secondly, where did I say that we were ALLIES with Germany? Well, finally, where did you get that I judge Rezun? Then there were at least once in the archives, what documents did you see? The fact that the USSR had relations with Germany before the war does not blame the country, but the fact that the Hitlerites managed to bring so much grief to my country, including thanks to similar articles in our newspapers and a statement about the rumors about the attack, a reason to draw conclusions and present. Then, too, there were their own “troubadours” of hurray-patriotism, which threw themselves at anyone who questioned flirting with the Germans. How many such “patriots” do you have that they immediately sew “rezuns”, and, by the ultimate truth, give their unequivocal verdict, like that of Mr. Nizhlogger (Valery Babyshiv) - “To post such fakes is bad form at least, and at most dementia." My grandfathers and uncles fought against the Nazis, many died, and it’s not for you to teach me to love the Motherland.
                    1. +1
                      4 August 2018 10: 36
                      You see, non-Russian, and poorly fluent in Russian, otherwise you would understand that "be friends" and "be an ally" are one and the same. The text itself is called the "Non-aggression pact between the USSR and Germany," where do you see the word "friendship" here? The USSR and Germany pledged not to attack each other, that’s all. What bad do you see in this? Or do you think, in a liberal way, the USSR should, without any allied treaty with Poland, France and Britain, harness itself to the war with Hitler in September 1939? Soviet soldiers were supposed to die for British and French interests, and brave British and French soldiers would still play football on the Franco-German border and would not move their fingers to help the USSR. They did not even help the Poles, although they had an alliance treaty with Poland and promises to help with all possible forces in the German attack on Poland. So they sat for 8 months in their trenches until Hitler himself hit France on May 10, 1940.
                      Quote: Per se.
                      My grandfathers and uncles fought against the Nazis, many died, and it’s not for you to teach me to love the Motherland.

                      My grandfather also fought, was seriously wounded and demobilized. So not only your relatives and ancestors fought. There is no need to boast of it here, as if only yours fought, and all the others sat out in the rear.
                      1. +1
                        4 August 2018 22: 23
                        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                        You see, non-Russian
                        Okay, Kuzma, it is useless ... You about Eremu, you about Thomas. Make friends or be allies with your own kind, for example, as Setrac, but remember, finally, I am Russian, and swore allegiance to my country and my people. What you have in mind is your problem.
                2. +2
                  4 August 2018 04: 00
                  Such fake packs are produced. To post such fakes is bad form at least, but dementia as a maximum.
                3. 0
                  4 August 2018 20: 29
                  Quote: Per se.
                  Rude, Seryozha, do not, and poke at strangers.

                  Are you laying out a clear lie and waiting for your respect? You defame our country (apparently not yours), come on, work out your thirty pieces of silver.
                  Quote: Per se.
                  all the best, "son"

                  Tambov Wolf you son
          2. +1
            3 August 2018 21: 24
            Quote: Setrac
            It's just your illiterate fantasies, the USSR was not friends with the Third Reich.

            What did he do with him?
            1. +2
              3 August 2018 21: 42
              Quote: svp67
              What did he do with him?

              He traded, quarreled ... only to postpone the start of the war, a non-aggression pact was signed, and some mediocrity was stirring up friendships for us.
              I note that even now with the United States we have "peace" through the sights of nuclear missiles, nevertheless, trade is ongoing.
      3. +4
        3 August 2018 21: 31
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        China is absolutely not dangerous for Russia.

        What are you saying .... Have you ever been to the Far East?
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        For China, Russia is a strategic ally

        It’s not true, we want to make them such, but for them we are a SITUATIVE ally.
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        There is no need here to bring nonsense about the "capture of the Far East by the Chinese."

        You obviously have not been there. Otherwise they would not say that. Their diaspora there is quite large, but not long ago they were not there, from the word ABSOLUTELY.
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        Who needs this piece of frozen earth?

        To many. And a lot of blood will be shed for the right to own it.
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        Spending on its development will be more profit.

        You are wandering.
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        The main enemy of China is Japan, and just the Chinese fleet is needed in case of war with Japan.

        Now the main enemy is the United States. Then Taipei and only then Japan ....
        1. +2
          4 August 2018 03: 48
          Actually, I myself live in the Far East, and I know that there is no "Chinese expansion". Yes, there is a Chinese market where almost all merchants are Chinese, but this is only one market in the whole big city. There are much more Kyrgyz (occupied a niche in a taxi), Uzbeks (selling vegetables and fruits) and Armenians (seized the construction). There are probably 20-30 migrants from the Asian republics of the former USSR per Chinese, except in the Chinese market, you will not see the Chinese anywhere else.
          Quote: svp67
          To many. And a lot of blood will be shed for the right to own it.

          What are you saying? What is the point of owning this frozen piece of land? Is there oil, gas, precious and non-ferrous metals? The Chinese are heat-loving people, even before the arrival of the Russians, they did not meditate north of modern Harbin. According to the Treaty of Nerchinsk in 1689, the border between China and Russia passed along the entire course of the Amur River, that is, the south of the Khabarovsk Territory and Primorye were Chinese land, but for two centuries, the Chinese did not populate these lands, they were empty, except that they wandered there the extremely small peoples of Siberia, living off hunting, and in the middle of the 19th century, when they founded Vladivostok and Khabarovsk, Russian migrants did not see the Chinese in the eye. That is why it was possible so quickly and bloodless to attach these lands to Russia. Modern Chinese are mastering Southeast Asia, in Malaysia, for example, the proportion of Chinese is 23%. In Singapore, in general, almost 80% of the population are Chinese. The Chinese are smart people, and you can’t drag them into the permafrost with your lasso.
          Quote: svp67
          You wander

          This is you talking nonsense. Do you even know how many villages were closed due to the unprofitability of mining there? In the USSR, they did not think about profitability, they mined PI in the most difficult climatic conditions, ore was exported by air, in a market economy, such mining became uncompetitive, it was cheaper to buy this ore abroad than to mine in extreme climatic conditions, in the absence of roads, when there are thousands to the nearest railway and thousands of miles of taiga and mountains.
          1. +3
            4 August 2018 10: 29
            Quote: Kot_Kuzya
            The Chinese are heat-loving people, even before the arrival of the Russians, they did not meditate north of modern Harbin.

            You don’t know the history of those places. Read at least about the defense of Blagoveshchensk in 1900
            Quote: Kot_Kuzya
            Russian immigrants generally did not see the Chinese in the eye.

            Fairy tales not supported by real history. The lands of Primorye and many in the Far East were populated by the Chinese, the settlements and their names were Chinese, the names of rivers were also Chinese, after the breakdown of relations between the USSR and China, they were renamed in a hurry, but still some people remember the old names . Read books about the Vladivostok cruisers, they went on the SUCHAN coal, Suchan since 1972 the city of Partizansk .... and there are many such examples.
            And the Chinese fleet is dangerous to us not because it will capture the Far East, but because at the time of the aggravation of the contradictions, and sooner or later it will come anyway, it can easily crush our Pacific Fleet, and thus deprive Russia of one of its "allies" on that theater
            1. +1
              4 August 2018 10: 50
              Quote: svp67
              You don’t know the history of those places. Read at least about the defense of Blagoveshchensk in 1900

              The massacre at Blaga occurred 40 years after the annexation of lands south of the Amur, over these 40 years everything has changed dramatically.
              Quote: svp67
              Fairy tales not supported by real history. The lands of Primorye and many in the Far East were populated by the Chinese, the settlements and their names were Chinese, the names of rivers were also Chinese, after the breakdown of relations between the USSR and China, they were renamed in a hurry, but still some people remember the old names . Read books about the Vladivostok cruisers, they went on the SUCHAN coal, Suchan since 1972 the city of Partizansk .... and there are many such examples.

              Is it true? Where did the Chinese go then?
              Quote: svp67
              And the Chinese fleet is dangerous to us not because it will capture the Far East, but because at the time of the aggravation of the contradictions, and sooner or later it will come anyway, it can easily crush our Pacific Fleet, and thus deprive Russia of one of its "allies" on that theater

              Do you seriously think that even if the unbelievable happens - the war with China, the Chinese will attack the Vladivostok, Khabarovsk, Blagu and Irkutsk with the help of the fleet? Well, of course, I understand that some are not friends with geography, but the fleet in the war with the Russian Federation and China will play the last role, much like the fleets of both countries played in the wars between Russia / USSR and Germany in the First and Second World wars.
              1. +1
                4 August 2018 10: 53
                Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                Is it true? Where did the Chinese go then?

                Where the Germans are coming from, they are relocated to China.
                You probably badly read about the Annunciation defense, there this moment is well described
                Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                then the Chinese will attack the Vladivostok, Khabarovsk, Blagu and Irkutsk with the help of the fleet?

                And we have few territories where you can get only with the help of a ship and aircraft?
                And in the coastal directions, the fleet plays a HUGE role, which means Vladivostok, Bolshoi Kamen, Nakhodka, Komsomolsk, it will be very difficult to defend all our island territories
                1. 0
                  4 August 2018 11: 00
                  Quote: svp67
                  Where the Germans are coming from - they are relocated to China

                  Surely the "bloody royal rezhim" deported all the Chinese? I did not deport the Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Turkmen, Tajiks, Uzbeks, Azeris, but for some reason I deported the Chinese. Apparently, the reason for this is a great mystery!
                  Quote: svp67
                  And we have few territories where you can get only with the help of a ship and aircraft?

                  That is, in your opinion, Vladik, Khabara, Blago and Irkutsk are overseas in the form of islands, and their defense is impossible without a fleet?
                  1. +1
                    4 August 2018 11: 12
                    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                    Apparently, the reason for this is a great mystery!

                    Why? Read it ...
                    https://aloban75.livejournal.com/1416682.html
                    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                    That is, in your opinion, Vladik, Khabara, Blago and Irkutsk are overseas in the form of islands, and their defense is impossible without a fleet?

                    Vladivostok, Khabarovsk are in the radius of destruction of weapons of ships, Blagoveshchensk and Irkutsk is different.
                    1. 0
                      4 August 2018 11: 42
                      Quote: svp67
                      Vladivostok, Khabarovsk are in the radius of destruction of weapons of ships, Blagoveshchensk and Irkutsk is different.

                      M-yes, it is very sad with geography. In fact, Khabara is located in the depths of the continent, 600 km from the Japanese world in a straight line, it’s like from St. Petersburg to Moscow.
                      1. +1
                        4 August 2018 16: 38
                        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                        In fact, Khabara is located in the depths of the continent, 600 km from the Japanese world in a straight line, it’s like from St. Petersburg to Moscow.

                        Listen, I went through this geography with legs, so I know well where Khabarovsk is located with its headquarters and warehouses. But he is in the radius of defeat with weapons from ships, although of course he will be captured if units located literally not far away ... and nevertheless, their fleet threatens Khabarovsk the same as Komsomolsk on Amur.
  5. +17
    3 August 2018 08: 28
    Recently, a peculiar tendency has been observed at VO. It consists in the complete discrepancy between the title and content.
    So in this article - the title seems to imply a certain analysis of the current state of the PLA Navy and the Chinese naval doctrine, and in the text - a humoresque about the Chinese copier.
    I suggest the author, when he will write again on the same topic, go the next way.
    1. To begin with, at least briefly outline the modern naval doctrine of China.
    2. To consider how much the modern Chinese Navy complies with this doctrine, for which it is not easy to list the available naval composition, but briefly analyze this composition from the point of view of age categories and range zones - coastal, near sea, sea and ocean.
    Further, you can slightly analyze such factors as the influence of climatic conditions, the organization of military service, the use of the floating rear and advanced basing points, the technical reliability of weapons and weapons, and the training of personnel.
    A couple of paragraphs can be devoted to modern shipbuilding programs.
    Then do the same with the aviation personnel of the fleet.
    And briefly, the conclusions are to whom and how terrible the Chinese fleet is, taking into account the experience gained by the Chinese Navy in numerous regional military actions since 1949.
    1. +1
      4 August 2018 13: 34
      Quote: Curious
      I suggest the author, when he will write again on the same topic, go the next way.

      then you have to wait for Andrei from Chelyabinsk. Since he has a "soul lies with this." And the pen too.
      And so, yes. We are not afraid of the "yellow wolf". Excellence in the Premier League ...
      China, by the way, is in the ring of not quite friendly "partners" with whom eye and eye, and big communist plans for the floor of the planet. With which not everyone agrees. And doctrine
      The naval doctrine of the PLA Navy began to be developed from the late 1980s. and was officially proclaimed in 1995. It is based on the “Active Defense Strategy”, which envisages the creation of a Navy and the Air Force supporting them, capable of not only repelling aggression from the sea, but also providing for preventive strikes, including and on the ocean theater.
      At the same time, the Navy of the PRC is already at the present stage facing the task of ensuring the interests of the state at sea related to the development of natural resources of the ocean and the safety of navigation.

      Thus, the first stage of the program is aimed at protecting the territory of the PRC from attacks from the sea and ensuring the safety of maritime communications and industrial activities related to the development of natural resources in the waters of the Chinese seas.
      In general, the construction of the PLA Navy is carried out as part of long-term programs based on the concept of "protecting strategic borders and vital space," according to which China must have the armed forces capable of winning a war of any duration and scale. Among the incentives for the activation of naval construction in modern China include a number of important events, such as: the inclusion of the territory of eastern China and its waters in the operational zone of the Pacific Joint Command of the US Armed Forces, the US withdrawal from the 1972 ABM Treaty, and the creation of the United States missile defense systems involving the Navy of Japan, the Republic of Korea, Australia and Taiwan, the experience of the United States and its allies in naval operations during local conflicts of the present in South-East Europe, Central and South-West Asia, and the presence of the "Taiwan problem."
    2. +2
      4 August 2018 14: 23
      Quote: Curious
      complete mismatch of title and content.

      and absurdities from poor ownership of the topic (material)
      For example:
      In general, they fellows, mastered after the Swedes and Japanese the Stirling engine. But on Chinese boats there is a “Xerox” with a Swedish engine already the first generation (80 of the last century), while the “Gotland” already has a third generation engine.

      But the press has already covered this topic:
      the Chinese managed to achieve a sharp (by 117%) increase in the installation capacity compared to the Swedish prototype, which served as a model for copying. This expanded the capabilities of Chinese industry to create new types of non-nuclear submarines.
      And this is on 039, and they are already doing 039, and they are doing 041. And with Lada I’m getting stuck, but they’re already trying to do Kalina ...
  6. +9
    3 August 2018 08: 31
    in 70's, China kicked with Paracel Islands with Vietnam
    What ultimately resulted in the "first socialist" war in the 1979 year, which was entirely land. And in which the PRC was defeated, given the balance of power of the parties. Hardened Vietnamese militias acting in the minority were able to force the Chinese to stop the offensive, the regular army of Vietnam did not even manage to take a full part in this war.
    This is actually the only Chinese experience in fighting on land using large masses of troops. And he is pretty much sad and already out of date.
    1. 0
      3 August 2018 13: 00
      The Japanese and the Mongols also captured China ... laughing lol
      1. 0
        3 August 2018 18: 24
        Quote: Black Sniper
        The Japanese and the Mongols also captured China ...

        The Japanese captured Manchuria, which was not China at that time, but the Mongols ... mythical Mongols captured mythical China, the army built on such data will lose EVERYTHING.
    2. 0
      3 August 2018 13: 32
      Supplement you. This defeat gave impetus to the Chinese "perestroika", in the good sense of the word!
    3. +1
      3 August 2018 14: 12
      Quote: Alex_59
      What ultimately resulted in the "first socialist" war in 1979, which was entirely overland.
      That way, the first "socialist" war happened between the USSR and Nazi Germany, in which the German workers' national socialist party was in power. The Chinese "national communists" hardly deserve that the PRC be considered a socialist country. As for the war of China and Vietnam, more precisely, the Chinese aggression, the role of the Navy was very much present in this war, "which was entirely overland."
      Behind Vietnam, the Soviet Union stood in silent silence. Shortly before the start of the conflict, since the summer of 1978, the Pacific Soviet fleet began extensive military exercises in the South China Sea. At the beginning of March there were 30 ships and submarines in its waters. Being on the surface, they actually blocked the entrance to the Gulf of Tonkin. No one was allowed through this cordon, except for Soviet ships and Allied ships under the Warsaw Pact, which brought weapons and food to Haiphong. The American shock naval formation led by the CV-64 aircraft carrier, which had cruised nearby since the beginning of the war, could not enter the bay either.
      In addition, with the outbreak of hostilities, Vietnam was not alone on land.
      The Soviet military, who were present in Vietnam, immediately joined the fighting, helping aircraft to transfer equipment and food to the front line, as well as parts of the VNA from neighboring Kampuchea. At the same time, 22 in February, the Soviet military attache in Vietnam said that the USSR would have to begin the practical fulfillment of its obligations under the treaty with Vietnam, if China does not cease hostilities in Vietnam. 2 March, the Soviet government declared its willingness to intervene in the conflict. And this threatened China with war on two fronts.
      The Chinese have long made conclusions, including on the role of the fleet, increased the equipment of troops with new equipment, the quality of combat training. They are still learning from us, while continuing to smile, as they are lagging behind so far on a number of issues that they decide to learn in joint exercises. Obviously, soon students will not need Russian teachers ... What conclusions did we have, having withdrawn troops from fortified areas north to 200 kilometers (under an agreement with China), and unilaterally transferring to the Chinese our border areas for "demarcation", the question is, how and why the Chinese sell the latest technology, moreover, that they have already copied the previous one ...
      1. +2
        3 August 2018 19: 25
        Quote: Per se.
        That is, the first "socialist" war occurred between the USSR and Nazi Germany

        The "First Socialist" Sino-Vietnamese War was called for fun, by analogy with the "First Imperialist". Black humor. Do not take it so seriously)
        the role of the Navy was even present in this war, "which was entirely land."
        Well, why deny the obvious. The fighting took place entirely on land. Not a single ship was injured, as far as I know. In the name of 20-40, thousands of Chinese soldiers staying in Vietnam forever.
        1. 0
          3 August 2018 19: 57
          Quote: Alex_59
          Well, why deny the obvious.
          Alex, well, who denies. With the blockade of Cuba by the Americans, not one ship was sunk, but would you really deny the obvious role of the fleet? Well, do not cling to the words out of context, the expansion did not make the topic worse, on the contrary.
    4. +2
      3 August 2018 14: 17
      I read about this conflict - the Vietnamese border guards went crazy about how much they had to kill, the Chinese soldiers often did not even try to do something, they simply went forward with tears in their eyes. A very strange conflict, a bit like landing a second front in ww2 in the area that Severloch guarded.
      1. 0
        4 August 2018 03: 58
        Quote: yehat
        A very strange conflict, a bit like landing a second front in ww2 in the area that Severloch guarded.

        Stop repeating the nonsense of the inventors. Allegedly, Severlo killed 2000 people, since the ratio of wounded and killed is usually 2-3 wounded to one killed, it turns out that Severlo killed and wounded 7 thousand people. The machine gunner spends an average of 500 rounds per each killed or wounded enemy. Well, suppose Severlo was a very well-aimed and very economical machine gunner, and he spent 100 rounds on every wounded and killed enemy. Therefore, he must spend 700 thousand cartridges, these are two tons of cartridges alone without the weight of machine-gun belts, boxes and cartridge boxes. Did he have a cart of cartridges next, or what? MG-42 combat rate of fire 200 rounds per minute, no longer possible, Severlo still had to change positions, his calculation should change the barrel and ribbons. That is, to fire 700 thousand rounds of ammunition at the enemy, he needed almost 60 hours without a break for sleep and food, shoot and shoot with a continuous rate of fire of 200 rounds per minute. Most likely, the number of killed Severlo, overestimated commercials 10 times. Here in 200 killed this can still be believed.
        1. 0
          5 August 2018 19: 47
          it was not Severloch who counted the killed
          and the majority were killed not by bullets, but by the wounded or in a flea market, they themselves drowned in water, as well as from the loss of blood and other consequences of no help.
          less than a quarter of those killed by fatal wounds died.
          as for the rate of fire - Severloch shot for several hours, the poor fellow got tired,
          having completely used up the ammunition of the bunker. Well, about bullet consumption, you said utter nonsense. There is a difference in firing from above at a completely open beach and a dense mass of infantry, at targeted landmarks and in ordinary shooting in the field. You again demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of what was happening.
  7. +2
    3 August 2018 09: 53
    name at least one marine experience of china where they won qualitatively with less
  8. +4
    3 August 2018 10: 18
    Well, really, the scraps of sushi like Spratly and Senkaku are not worth it. Not uniquely Crimea.
    Taiwan?..
    1. +2
      3 August 2018 11: 42
      Taiwan at the most I can not clogged with American bases and troops. Capturing the island by military means, you have to deal with the US Navy. The only possible option for the unification of China and Taiwan is a peaceful popular referendum, as was the case in Crimea. But for this it is necessary to replay the United States in propaganda and geopolitics so that the Taiwanese themselves want to join the PRC.
      1. +4
        3 August 2018 12: 11
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        Taiwan at the most can not be clogged with US bases and troops

        There are no American bases in Taiwan.
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        . The only possible option for the unification of China and Taiwan is a peaceful popular referendum, as was the case in Crimea

        It is precisely for these purposes that a fleet will be needed that is sufficient in order to prevent the interference of "third parties", "third star-striped persons" in the referendum, when suitable conditions ripen for the referendum.
        1. +1
          3 August 2018 12: 23
          Actually, since 1945, American military bases have been standing there. Otherwise, how did Chiang Kai-shek, having lost everything to the brim and ashes of Mao Jie Dong, managed to stay on the island?
          1. +4
            3 August 2018 12: 56
            Name these military bases, Kuzya. The nearest US base is in Okinawa.
            1. 0
              3 August 2018 13: 03
              There is no such information in the public domain, of course.
              1. +5
                3 August 2018 13: 33
                Do you seriously think that in Taiwan you can covertly deploy a military base that China will not be aware of? Kuzya, how old are you? Do you represent local specifics? Or maybe you were there?
                1. 0
                  3 August 2018 14: 20
                  But what is the local specificity?
                2. 0
                  4 August 2018 04: 00
                  Actually, the relief of Taiwan is mountainous, plus there is also a tropical climate, that is, the mountain slopes are densely covered with greenery all year round, so it’s not difficult to hide military bases.
                  1. 0
                    5 August 2018 19: 48
                    military base is not a dugout for you. This is a large infrastructure and it is very difficult to hide it.
      2. 0
        3 August 2018 14: 32
        Kuzya, add more to the economy. The economic opportunities of China and America are two different things. My sofa is wool, which in the short term, the Taiwanese will not want to go to China. Over in Hong Kong, the Chinese decided not to change the capitalist system to a socialist system, and this is something to talk about
        1. 0
          6 August 2018 09: 04
          Because Chinese socialism has a much more animal grin than Russian capitalism.
  9. +2
    3 August 2018 10: 21
    Today, probably, it is important not that the Chinese fleet is qualitatively inferior to others, but that it has the opportunity to be present everywhere.
  10. +5
    3 August 2018 10: 24
    Letters a lot, little use. The Chinese have it all - and it all floats, shoots, is exploited. We only have on paper, and everything else is drowning, falling, smoking, and for sale, at best. To the Chinese.
  11. +1
    3 August 2018 10: 49
    Everything is the same where to rip off, and not how to do better.
  12. +1
    3 August 2018 11: 17
    the power of the Chinese economy, and the billion-dollar population gives advantages China 1 needs to be friends with China. 2 you need to increase the number of submarines, and abandon the fruitless arms race on surface ships by reducing their number to a minimum
  13. +2
    3 August 2018 11: 46
    In fact, on land, China has no enemies. Russia, Mongolia, Kazakhstan and the DPRK are Beijing-friendly countries, Vietnam and India are neutral in relation to the PRC. The main enemy of China is Japan, and to a lesser extent puppet regimes in the Republic of Kazakhstan and the Kyrgyz Republic, but it is unlikely that Koreans and Taiwanese will flee in large numbers to die in the war with the Chinese for Japanese and American interests. Well, in the long run - the main enemy is the United States. And for the war with Japan and the United States, you need a large, strong and modern fleet. So China is preferable to allocate more money and attention to the fleet than to the army.
    1. +6
      3 August 2018 12: 31
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      In fact, on land, China has no enemies. Russia, Mongolia, Kazakhstan and the DPRK are Beijing-friendly countries, Vietnam and India are neutral in relation to the PRC.

      Is India Neutral? The last border conflict between China and India was just a year ago - around the road being built by the "Chinese builders" (in fact, the engineering units) on the disputed territory in Bhutan (allied India). Almost Damansky, but didn’t get to the phase of using weapons - they limited great standing urgently drawn to the place of conflict of the army of the two countries and angry statements.
      I would like to remind India: do not play with fire and do not make decisions based on fantasies. The whole history of the People's Liberation Army of China says one thing: our army will protect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the country. Rather, the mountain will budge, than our army will retreat.

      And India itself has enough disputed territories directly with China - at least 1962% of the state of Jammu and Kashmir occupied by China as a result of the 20 war.
      1. 0
        3 August 2018 12: 36
        You look at the map. How will Indian troops advance through Tibet? We can say that China will be able to attack India, while India cannot attack China, since Indian troops are stuck in the Himalayas and Tibet.
        1. +3
          3 August 2018 13: 06
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          You look at the map. How will Indian troops advance through Tibet? We can say that China will be able to attack India, while India cannot attack China, since Indian troops are stuck in the Himalayas and Tibet.

          Everything will be as before - fighting along the roads in the same Bhutan or the state of Jammu and Kashmir.
          In addition, Pakistan has long and firmly allied to China as the main land opponent of "neutral" India. So there is already a theater of war for war. smile
          1. 0
            3 August 2018 13: 11
            And what is the point of China fighting against India? For what? To capture a piece of land inhabited by a couple of hundred million impoverished Indians, who will then have to be fed? China cannot even really master its western lands.
            1. +4
              3 August 2018 14: 10
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              And what is the point of China fighting against India? For what?

              For eliminating a competitor in the region. For a free way to the pantry of China - Africa.
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              To capture a piece of land inhabited by a couple of hundred million impoverished Indians, who will then have to be fed?

              Grab and feed today is not in vogue. Now trending "Spread everything to the bottom, assign puppets, and dump everything on them". Moreover, the Indian cauldron is even worse than the Balkan, one Muslim problem is worth it.
              1. 0
                3 August 2018 19: 00
                Quote: Alexey RA
                For a free way to the pantry of China - Africa.

                For the "free path to Africa" ​​they build a fleet.
            2. +2
              3 August 2018 14: 23
              they’re just close by - that’s the point. As it was closely Germany and England before the WWII.
  14. +2
    3 August 2018 12: 19
    I want to say very briefly about aircraft carrier ships. Yes, nashtampuyut, good, inexpensive. Improve, good, able. But still it will remain the TAVKRs of the Soviet project 70-ies of the last century.

    Are you serious? Yes, if we had such TAVKR, like those planned by China after the first two of its AB - the Navy would be incredibly happy!
    Copies of the Soviet TAVKR are the first 2 ships. More precisely, 1 original and 1 copy, built to establish production. But then China begins to move to the classic ejection AB.
  15. 0
    3 August 2018 12: 34
    Here, for the first time, I agree with Roman .... They rivet quickly .... And even qualitatively now .... But the stuffing of the ships remained at the level of the beginning of 80's. No experience of use and application. There is not even a historical experience of military operations at sea, with the exception of the Battle of Yalu at the time of Ona, before the Russo-Japanese War ... And all ... More than the Chinese fleet did not fight any enemy ...

    But if we and they cooperate (and the data on such negotiations has been walking around the network for a long time, just the parties have not yet bargained to the end), then the result will be. The construction of the hulls of the same destroyers in China for the Russian fleet with our filling and under our control. And we share the technology of the fillings. I would like to believe ....
    1. +4
      3 August 2018 13: 13
      Quote: Santor
      Here, for the first time, I agree with Roman .... They rivet quickly .... And even qualitatively now .... But the stuffing of the ships remained at the level of the beginning of the 80s.

      And who at the beginning of the 80s had conformal headlights and modular UVP? Even the “tics” in those days ran with two-frame launchers.
      Here's the Chinese 052D - a smaller "Arly Burke":
    2. 0
      3 August 2018 14: 18
      Santor, do you know how to read the mind of a dragon? I would not be in a hurry to trust the dragon like that: FIG knows what is on his mind
  16. 0
    3 August 2018 12: 51
    And by the way, the Chinese have already been using our help for two years (and we are observing and gaining invaluable experience) to upgrade the Hangzhou project 956E tail number 136. In 2017, they installed the tail number 137 for the modernization of Fuzhou. The first one has already installed mines for vertical launch missiles, completely changed electronic weapons, added long-range air defense systems and an analogue of the American Asrok PLURO system.

    https://dambiev.livejournal.com/1095267.html
  17. 0
    3 August 2018 12: 51
    But TF Khan ...
  18. +6
    3 August 2018 12: 59
    I really like the author’s evaluative judgment "they have pre-aircraft carriers, and generally everything is according to the projects of the 70s", it’s interesting, the situation in the Russian Federation is probably different, but our stop is exactly the same aircraft carrier, and the whole fleet except the boats of the same 70s years (only here not on projects, but on the real year of release) ..
    Further, the nagging - "they are not good at copying everything" - and what, they are doing the right thing, are copying and borrowing the best from most of the countries, and created their own design schools
    Further conclusion -
    Perhaps, in order to ensure that the PLA’s Navy is truly on a par with the fleets of the leading world powers, it’s worth even revising its policy in terms of scientific and technical activities

    Perhaps the author should discard the views of the Patriot Hurray and realize that the PLA Navy has really become one step ahead with the fleets of the leading world powers, not even with the fleets, but with the US fleet. For now they are objectively the second fleet in the world and continue their growth
    1. 0
      3 August 2018 13: 04
      In fact, the second fleet in the world is the British fleet.
      1. +1
        3 August 2018 13: 51
        thanks for the humor laughing
        1. 0
          4 August 2018 04: 03
          In fact, very many either forgot or do not know that Britain still includes Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Bahamas, the Falklands, Gibraltar and dozens of lands around the world. And everywhere are British ships and bases.
          1. +2
            4 August 2018 13: 51
            Kuzya, you are a vivid illustration of what the mismatch of opportunities and desires leads to. And it turns out - the desire - to broadcast something smart, but the possibilities - alas.
            The composition of Great Britain at the moment is raised by England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. And the fact that you are listed and much more is included in the Commonwealth of Nations is a voluntary association of sovereign states. Kuzya, look at the literature on the differences between the gift of God and fried eggs. Start small.
            1. 0
              4 August 2018 21: 20
              I understand, of course, that so many are deprived of the mind. But the fact that the Canadian monarch in the person of the British monarch is the head of Canada, and the governor general appointed by the monarch of Britain rules everything, you do not know.
              The USSR was also the Union of 15 countries, and the RSFSR, Ukrainian SSR, and BSSR were the founding countries of the UN and had different full-fledged voices, just like Canada and Britain now. So according to your logic, Ukraine and Belarus since the USSR are independent countries?
              1. +3
                4 August 2018 23: 02
                Kuzya, why don’t you want to read a little before writing?
                After all, even on the network you can find a lot of materials about the Commonwealth of Nations, starting with the Balfour Declaration of 1926 and ending with the official website of this organization.
                Kuzya, COMMONWEALTH OF THE NATIONS, an association of independent states formerly part of the British Empire, recognizing the British monarch as symbol of free unity. Well, I don’t know, Speransky read something. At the same time, you will find out that there the Governor General is “running the show”.
                You can, however, go there, on the spot to get acquainted with the state of affairs.
                As for Belarus and Ukraine, as well as other republics of the former USSR, they were independent states not according to my logic, but according to the 1977 Constitution of the USSR.
                The last Constitution of 1977 defined the Union Republic: "The Union Republic is a sovereign Soviet socialist state, which merged with other Soviet republics into the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics." Each republic is sovereign in all aspects that do not belong to the jurisdiction of the USSR authorities, has its own Constitution and authorities. According to the 1977 Constitution of the USSR, "The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics is a single union multinational state formed on the basis of the principle of socialist federalism, as a result of free self-determination of nations and the voluntary unification of Equal Soviet Socialist Republics.
                The USSR personifies the state unity of the Soviet people, rallies all nations and nationalities in order to jointly build communism. "
                Kuzya, take good advice, start reading a little, and put off writing for now. It will benefit you.
                1. 0
                  4 August 2018 23: 07
                  Nah yes. A yellow-blue rag, a symbol of downs, definitely does not give reason to its owners. In fact, the Governor-General is the Supreme Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, he also appoints and removes federal ministers and judges, and also has the right to dissolve parliament and even remove the prime minister. So the question is: so who is the governor general: a decorative figure, as liberals try to present us, or real power?
                  [quote] https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%B5%D0%BD%
                  D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BB-%D0%B3%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%B5%
                  D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80_%D0%9A%D0%B0%
                  D0% BD% D0% B0% D0% B4% D1% 8B [quote] Here at least read on Wiki about the powers of the Governor General. And anyone, especially the lawyer, will not even have a shadow of doubt that Canada has no more authority than any region of Russia, and is just as subordinate to London as the Orel region to Moscow.
                  1. +2
                    5 August 2018 01: 59
                    Kuzya, turning to the direct insults of your opponent, you have once again confirmed that the level of your development and the level of your ambitions is diametrically opposite. Therefore, I consider the attempts to somehow persuade you to take up your own head unpromising and stop. The good news is that the range of your stupidity is limited by the scope of your sofa, because outside of it, apparently, no one calls you at all. All the best, Kuzya, Wikipedia reader.
                    And about Canada, nevertheless read something more serious than Wikipedia and carefully, or you will think that the Queen of England rules there as she wants.
                    1. 0
                      5 August 2018 03: 15
                      For your information, Canada is a monarchical country, and its monarch is ... But there is a British monarch, now Elizabeth II. You don’t even know this, but you’re going to talk about things that you don’t understand at all.
                      As for the ribbon of downs, it is the same yellow-blue as the ribbon of pots that clung to the maydaunas:


                      And for comparison, ribbons of pots:

                      I do not see the differences.
                      1. +2
                        5 August 2018 08: 34
                        Kuzya, I said everything about your abilities and knowledge in the previous comment. I don’t need to retell Wikipedia, since you cannot read and understand even this simplest material correctly. Try, however, to work on yourself. Learn lessons, read books, go in for sports, otherwise you’ll get head slaps from your peers. In a word, try to somehow develop. Good luck, Kuzya, an expert on Canadian monarchies and Taiwanese secret military bases.
      2. +1
        3 August 2018 16: 41
        Really thanks laughing Mistress of the seas!
  19. +1
    3 August 2018 13: 29
    Ugh, it’s relieved! Well, all the same, in Uzbekistan, to sit out from the PRC fleet!
    1. +1
      3 August 2018 13: 59
      are you in vain, the Chinese have special teams of many thousands to transfer ships overland laughing
  20. 0
    3 August 2018 14: 12
    Quote: faiver
    The Chinese fleet still beats quantity, but the quantity sooner or later turns into quality ...

    But not in the case of China: Roman is right: the Chinese have all the copies, sometimes improved, but still copies
    1. +1
      3 August 2018 16: 06
      you are an interesting comrade, t-26 where did you come from? BT series of tanks and then the legendary T-34? post-war Queen missiles? post-war Soviet submarines?
    2. 0
      4 August 2018 11: 23
      Quote: Royalist
      But not in the case of China: Roman is right: the Chinese have all the copies, sometimes improved, but still copies

      The third aircraft carrier, in my opinion, is not a copy at all.
  21. +1
    3 August 2018 14: 27
    Quote: Curious
    Do you seriously think that in Taiwan you can covertly deploy a military base that China will not be aware of? Kuzya, how old are you? Do you represent local specifics? Or maybe you were there?

    Bravo question is not in the eyebrow, but in the eye. The Chinese have studied everything in Taiwan for so many years. All the same, their intelligence works well
  22. 0
    3 August 2018 14: 54
    Yes, the Chinese have ambitious ambitions. Yes, they build many ships, but Chinese quality is Chinese quality.
    What I do to the Chinese is that they do not spare money on the fleet. Here they are well done
    1. 0
      3 August 2018 15: 16
      Royalist, how many times have you been to China?
    2. 0
      3 August 2018 19: 08
      Quote: Royalist
      but Chinese quality is Chinese quality.

      They all compensate for the amount.
  23. 0
    3 August 2018 16: 09
    It remains only to envy sad
  24. +1
    3 August 2018 17: 00
    Well, really, the scraps of sushi like Spratly and Senkaku are not worth it. Not uniquely Crimea.

    Spratly is definitely not Crimea. What is Crimea in terms of economy? Correct if I'm wrong, but it seems a little more than nothing. From the point of view of organizing defense on a theater of war, yes, an unsinkable aircraft carrier, and in case of loss, a bridgehead for 6 military units with a bunch of tomahawks, which you can assemble there if you wish (we will not argue about their effectiveness in this case, they killed everyone in Syria, then vice versa) and a bunch of all sorts of nishtyakov. But these are all trifles, if not to unleash the 3rd world war.
    But Spratly is, firstly, heaps of oil, which China considers its de jure and de facto spits on everyone, plus control over shipping in the South China Sea, which is both important for China and its opponent Japan, because almost all of Asia’s maritime trade with Europe is through the Strait of Singapore. So yes, Spratly is not the Crimea for sure, but much more important for the Chinese. And if there is an airdrome where to build a bulk ... for Henderson Field on Guadalcanal, how many lives were laid, and in fact no one needs the island at all.
    1. 0
      3 August 2018 17: 20
      Quote: unBEARable
      Correct if I'm wrong, but it seems a little more than nothing.

      You will be surprised, but there is gas in the World Cup near Crimea. Fussing around the gas production platforms that left with Crimea for 3 years now.
  25. +1
    3 August 2018 17: 55
    Like it or not, the future lies with the submarines.
    So the quantity will never turn into quality.
  26. 0
    4 August 2018 00: 28
    Japanese Navy is better ...
  27. 0
    4 August 2018 00: 45
    Meanwhile, fourth-generation submarines are in service and are being successfully built, representing significant hemorrhoids even for Americans. This is paradoxical, but for some reason for all the time of the collapse of the Soviet military industry, enterprises producing nuclear submarines suffered the least. What is not something that does not please, but causes puppy delight.

    This is just not paradoxical. The fact is that all the time “Sevmash” tried not to touch. And he managed to preserve not only the continuity of personnel, but also relations within the collective, social programs, and so on, so on, so on. Yes, everything is changing. But Sevmash is what we all have lost in Russia here. An occasion to think. Russians have been driving through the desert for 27 years. There is very little left. “Sevmash”, if “a little” comes, will leave last.
  28. 0
    4 August 2018 21: 24
    svp67,
    Petrosyan further. Your contribution to the Comedy Club is simply irreplaceable :)!
  29. 0
    5 August 2018 09: 18
    Curious,
    Hmm, what are you stubborn! But in general, this is a very bad quality when a person does not like to admit that he was wrong. We had such a man at work, if he was mistaken, he never admitted his mistake, blamed on others. As a result, colleagues got him so bad that he quit.
  30. 0
    6 August 2018 08: 48
    Well, China has eggs in the grip of the Strait of Malak and does not have its own oil. And there’s nowhere to take it in the neighborhood either, the deposits on and around Sakhalin, even if they are captured, do not solve anything.
  31. 0
    10 August 2018 13: 49
    And today, the main indicator for the majority of attack ships is how much they can take on board anti-ship missiles.

    That is, we officially send the US fleet to last place in the world?

    And there are things that are not for sale at all

    Here is the S-400, the Su-35 is no longer sold. The rest will not be sold. Rest assured.
    It’s not at all clear what the author wants to say? China does not match us? Even if you agree with this at the moment, then everything flows, everything changes. 20 years ago, not only the fleet, the entire PLA was amicably and deservedly laughed at. 20 years in advance - they will already laugh at us, or rather, at our remains, when the Chinese come and just kill everyone. One way or another, the world is moving towards a new series of wars. And China understands this and is well prepared. I'm ready now.