No money, “Armat” will not?

It is no longer a very good tradition - on the basis of the words of high-ranking officials to sentence our next “unparalleled in the world” invention to postponement.

Just recently, we talked about the complete collapse of the PAK DA project, then about the Su-57, which, if it is in the army, in unit quantities and it is not clear in general for what. Training is understandable, but the point is in training if the plane does not go to the troops?

The reason is the same: no money. It’s right where they come from, if they need to save the Deripaska and other close oligarchs from poverty and build mausoleums across the country for the first president. That is Deripaska’s well-being - this is a topic for spending. And the Moscow Yeltsin Center. A Tanks...

Former Deputy Shoigu, and now Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov, once again gave reason for foreign media to gloat over the Russians. On Monday, dropping a mean male tear, Mr. Borisov said that the army would be glad to buy thousands of “Almaty”, but the trouble is a terrifying price. Our budget cannot overpower it. No

Of course, Borisov could not help but say that the T-72 in service is much more attractive to the military both technically and financially. Indeed, why do we need Armata, why do we need Vladimir (T-90MS), if there is a very good tank, T-72. And his T-72B3 modification is generally fire, not like these "Abrams" and "Leopards"!

And the tank is not old! So what is 44 of the year? For the tank - nothing! This is not “Priora”, it will not rot. And the German “Leopard” (first) will also be older. And anyway, who said that tomorrow is war? Especially if the war, the studied T-72 will be the way.

And "Armata" look good on the parade. Here are a dozen of them - and pretty. Expensive.

It makes sense to cite the words of another expert, Alexei Leonkov from the magazine Arsenal of the Fatherland.

This is normal today. If there is an awkward question, then (as in the case of the pension "reform") experts immediately appear, who intelligently and reasonably prove that everything is right and correct.

So Mr. Leonkov announces that, in fact, "Armata" - a prototype of weapons. With the letter "O". Who and where could see this type is not clear, but believe it. The expert is the same.

And when such samples are created, this implies that they are made not of technical interest, but under the solution of some specific problems.

Here is how! It’s great, but I’ve already begun to think that we have people in all design bureaus and people are just thinking to come up with one. And let's tower a desert gash. And we will distribute to all experts.

According to Leonkov, there is no point in creating expensive equipment, if it is not expected to have combat missions that only these samples can do.

Delicious, right? It immediately reminds 1941 of the year when 57-mm anti-tank guns stopped producing, because for them there were no goals. And then the comrades in Stalin's office stood, soiled their parade pants and bleated, when it turned out that there was nothing to beat the Tigers.

Mr. expert clearly describes that it is these tasks that nothing, except "Almaty", will not perform, and determine the amount of the ordered equipment. And if there are no such tasks, then “Armat” is not needed! Here is the beauty, right?

I quote: “In the case of samples that are far ahead of existing types of weapons, the question always arises: why do we need so many of these tanks, if the existing models are more than suitable for all conceivable combat missions?”

The counter question: why did the Ministry of Defense then solemnly roar, drowning the march “Thunder of victory, resound!” About a thousand “Armat” that will be in our army? And why now even a whisper intelligible on this subject is not heard?

Oh yes, there is no money ... Sorry, I forgot. But one more, literally, the last quote from an “expert”.

"Armata" is just such a technological breakthrough, which puts it a generation above all existing not only in Russia, but also in the world of samples of tank technology. Therefore, it simply does not have any worthy competitors on the battlefield - all the Abrams and Leopards can serve the latest Russian tank as “sparring opponents”.

Right! That is why we will not release it! It is dishonest in relation to potential (and not) opponents! Well, how is it that our tankers will be on the “not having ...” tank against the ancient “Leopards”? Well, gentlemen, not 1945 year, it is necessary to understand.

We must (hypothetically) ruin our crews in T-72. It will be knightly. And the fact that there will die someone ... Come on, right, gentlemen? Still giving birth ... Perhaps.

Well, to which Mr. Expert came to the end, this is what we wrote about two years ago, when fanfares roared, and hurray-idiots hurt their foreheads in hysterics on all resources, that “Armatavsehporvet!”

We then talked about the fact that everything is premature. And joyful shouts, and triumphant reports. That for a tank of a new generation there is nothing: no training base, no repair, no crews. We were then well-voiced by our patriots criticized. Okay.

Two years have passed.

And now the same words are quietly whispering "experts" hired by the gentlemen rulers. But at least they honestly whisper that yes, there is no base, there is nothing, but the main thing is that there is no money.

And there is no money - nothing.

But not everything is so sad. Still sadder. Apparently, in the clash of financiers and the military came a certain parity. And the financiers said like, “Damn you, there will be a new toy for you. But not for that kind of money. ”

“The words of the Deputy Prime Minister about“ Armata ”do not mean that a cross is placed on it. In the foreseeable future, a certain batch of these machines will go into pilot-military operation in the Russian army, during which it will be possible to figure out what caused this high cost: plant costs, cost of components, or other factors. ”

That is, this unfortunate trial batch will be made now, however, there are persistent rumors that the number of tanks in it has been corrected again.

It is worth recalling that the need for “Armata” was first evaluated in 2 300 units. Then the Ministry of Defense announced the construction of 1 000 machines "for the first time." Next went "blah blah blah", and the number was reduced to a trial batch in 100 machines.

Now they say that 20 is enough for full testing. We arrived.

But the most interesting thing is these tests. Ask, and what to test, state tests passed, the tank seems to have been adopted?

Yeah, accepted. It also seems to be.

New “tests” of “Almaty” are needed in order for specialists to understand which of the tank’s innovations are really necessary and which ones can be abandoned, thereby lowering the price for it.

Degrease, so to speak.

Tried to find the numbers, but alas. All behind the veil of secrecy.

“Our tanks have never been more expensive than the Abrams, and if the Armata is priced somewhere like the T-90, without reducing the performance characteristics, the issue of its production will not be so acute.”

Kindergarten, younger group. Our tanks were not more expensive than the Abrams. Well, incredibly easy! And these words are already quoted by Mr. Borisov. Vice Premier. Who is trying to explain on the fingers about the cost of the tank.

Okay, the Abrams costs about 6 million dollars. T-90 depending on the letters - 3,5-4 million. “Armat” should be shoved in the middle.

Madhouse? Madhouse.

So you want to say to these "experts", that this, you know, TANK! It has no leather seats or a bar. This is not a jeep for 4-5 million rubles, which you roll, gentlemen. This is a combat vehicle.

And the war machine was invented and constructed by people who have been engaged only in this life. That is, the design of combat vehicles. There can be nothing superfluous.

Tank can not be made of metal from the barrels of oil. The tank can not be left without optics and electronics. We do not understand at all, due to which we can cheapen such a machine so that it becomes cheaper than Abrams, which is going towards its 40 anniversary.

What can be thrown out of the combat vehicle to make it cheaper? What is there unnecessary? And what kind of "experts" will solve this?

And this heresy is broadcast by high-ranking officials of the country ... Apparently, they have uninhabited towers, unlike our armored troops - a common occurrence.

Comments

[Jerk]

EMNIS, Armata was positioned as a command vehicle mainly ... In general, this is an old cart about the concept of a silver bullet. It’s clear that a better weapon is better, but the principle “better less is better” DOES NOT PLAY in the army! "God is on the side of the BIG battalions!" Mass is needed, 1 super-duper Me-262 or the Royal Tiger does not play against 50 Yaks or 100 thirty-four !!! And there are not enough 50 Me-262s or Tigers to build resources - if they did, then there would be no one to fight with - they themselves would starve to death.
So it goes like this all over the world - tripods are worn off with the F-22 and F-35. but they buy something ancient piston Super Tucano, so that to Fight on them, and not ponte pound.

[100502]

That justifies theft

[Kuroneko]

Quote: 100502

That justifies theft

Well, before there was such a patriotic motto: "Guns instead of butter." And now - "No guns, no oil ... but you hold on!". The motto of our time. (c) almost according to Lermontov

[AUL]

This is normal today. If there is an awkward question, then (as in the case of the pension "reform") experts immediately appear, who intelligently and reasonably prove that everything is right and correct.

On that and stand! The main thing is to tell the population a beautiful fairy tale about wise rulers, and all the way through!

[EwgenyZ]

Quote from AUL

On that and stand! The main thing is to tell the population a beautiful fairy tale about wise rulers, and all the way through!

Under the current government, this will be the fate of all new projects, as money is needed for other "niches", more pleasant and more sawn.
Although the cost of military equipment is indeed overstated, and so it has always been, frankly, I do not understand why such an order was established, but this was also with the Soviets. And with the current ....

[Evgeniy667b]

Very convenient phrase "No money!". Where are they? Resources are being sold, territories, weapons, but all of them are not and are not. This is a lie. There is money, but not where Russian interests demand it. Sechin, Miller, Medvedev, Putin and others like them have it, but it’s their personal, earned by hard work in hazardous production. That is the face of all of them wider and wider, do not enter the screen ...

[AA17]

"... And where are they? ..." Money is needed for more important things - plugging financial holes, subsidizing dubious gas projects for Russia.
1. ".. The Central Bank of the Russian Federation became the owner of over 99,9% of the shares of Otkritie Bank, having bought its additional issue of 456,2 billion rubles, the regulator’s website said. A substantial part of the allocated funds will be used to close the" hole "in the bank’s capital amounting to 189,1 billion rubles. Part of the funds is allocated to provide financial assistance to Rosgosstrakh (42,2 billion rubles) and to non-state pension funds of the group (42,9 billion rubles will be used to cover losses incurred by NPFs as a result of impairment of assets related to with the Otkritie group). In addition, as part of the recapitalization, 182 billion rubles are allocated for the formation of the bank’s new capital ... "
2. "..." ... Yamal LNG (the first private LNG plant in Russia, being built on the basis of the South Tambeyskoye field.) Is far from the only gas mega-project receiving large tax breaks, the benefit of which for the Russian economy not obvious .... Putting the plant into operation is a merit not only of shareholders, but also of Russian taxpayers, who generously subsidized them. The South Tambeyskoye field, which serves as the resource base for Yamal LNG, will be exempted from MET for gas in the first 12 years of production, provided that its total volume for this period does not exceed 250 billion cubic meters. m. Under the same conditions, exemption from property tax and income tax benefits, which will be not 18%, but 13,5%. Until the end of the construction of the plant, shareholders are exempted from VAT when purchasing equipment that has no analogues in Russia, and upon its completion they will be able to use the zero LNG export duty. The project received direct subsidies: in 2015, the government approved the purchase of Yamal LNG bonds for 150 billion rubles. from the National Welfare Fund. At the expense of the state, three-quarters (71 billion of 96 billion rubles) were funded for the construction of the cargo port of Sabetta. ... Strange, it turns out, raw dependence: not the gas industry supports the budget, but rather, taxpayers subsidize gas producers ... "
P.S. I did not find anywhere information: HOW AND WHEN this money allocated by the state will be returned to the state.

[Vadim237]

And the money will go to huge infrastructure projects: nuclear power plants, hydroelectric power stations, thermal power plants, state district power plants, bridges, railways, automobile and residential infrastructure, all over Russia. A large-scale war, if it will be only nuclear, - at the moment such as in the Donbass - is the maximum, in such a war the T 72B3 will be enough.

[AA17]

Yes Yes. I agree, the money will go. But where? "... And the money will go to huge ..." spectacles for the people. This is more important. "... Expo-2025 and the Summer Universiade-2023 in Yekaterinburg have already been announced, the Winter Universiade-2019 in Krasnoyarsk. ... "
P.S. And at that time.
"The largest companies in the non-financial sector of the Russian economy recorded a decrease in profitability for the third year in a row. Last year, 227 key corporations, including commodity exporters, metallurgy, the electricity sector, telecommunications and transport, which account for 35% of total revenue in the economy (49 trillion rubles) , in total, showed negative free cash flow (FCF) ... "

[Vadim237]

This is the market - today it is decreasing, tomorrow it is increasing, economic waves.

[twviewer]

Where is the market then? And when will Gazprom again cost 500 billion? gee gee gee
According to the laws of the universe, if somewhere has diminished, somewhere it should increase, maybe this is still the case ?!

[Vadim237]

“Where's the Market” - Across the globe, Gazprom is now worth 469 billion.

[twviewer]

is monopoly now called the market?
469 billion rubles? but it was worth dollars, but for you there is no difference, just 65 times

[Vadim237]

469 billion dollars, or 28 trillion rubles, with all assets and finances.

[yehat]

Gazprom will not be bought, but privatized for 100 rubles or simply squeezed. The West has always done this.

[twviewer]

"The market capitalization of PJSC Gazprom at the end of 2017 amounted to 53,4 billion US dollars." This is from the Gazprom website, and where are your fantasies from?

[Saxon]

Market? Free competition, huh? From the work of a hundred years ago:
"Private property, based on the work of the small owner, free competition, democracy - all these slogans that the capitalists and the press are deceiving the workers and peasants are far behind. Capitalism has grown into a worldwide system of colonial oppression and financial strangulation by a handful of" advanced "countries of the gigantic most of the world's population. "
or here’s another “The economically basic in this process is the replacement of capitalist free competition by capitalist monopolies. Free competition is the main property of capitalism and commodity production in general; a monopoly is the exact opposite of free competition, but this one before our eyes began to turn into a monopoly, creating large-scale production, replacing the small, replacing the large with the largest, bringing the concentration of production and capital to the point that a monopoly has grown and grows from it. "

I think that if you read at least Adam Smith's work “A Study on the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations,” your point of view about the “market around the globe” will undergo a certain metamorphosis.

[yehat]

curiously, the apologists for the religion of a market economy know neither the works of Adam Smith, nor Keynes, nor any of the serious authors.
but they read economics.

[udincev]

Quote: AA17

P.S. I did not find anywhere information: HOW AND WHEN this money allocated by the state will be returned to the state.

This is the case when the lack of information speaks more truthfully and more precisely than what might be present in it.

[Foxmara]

You my friend blink. All over the world, gas projects are prestigious, but we have dubious ones. What else is there? Tanks probably also do not need your logic, too expensive? The sofa is softer instead of the front door, repair is not needed, this is a dubious project that will never pay off, live in the mud, grunt. Yes, if the repair is not done, then maybe the door will not be needed, thieves are afraid to go into the srach ...

[mark1]

What are you, a cow with a tail. rave. The Russian Federation does not have, in principle, mass serial production of neither, as you say, Tigers with Me-262 nor Yakov. It (production) is handicraft, piece-work.
Borisov, I don’t know for what talents they promoted to vice premiere; he would be in charge of running shoes at the rank of ensign in the warehouse. how many times I don’t read his pearls;

[Avis-bis]

Quote: Jerk

EMNIS, Armata was positioned as a command vehicle mainly ...

Ka-52 - too. But it became the main turntable.

[Jerk]

Hm Something on the frames from Syria is basically not Ka, but more and more Crocodiles come across

[Avis-bis]

Quote: Jerk

Hm Something on the frames from Syria is basically not Ka, but more and more Crocodiles come across

Nda. What does Syria have to do with it?
Do you know a lot of serial Ka-50s? The main helicopter of the family was Ka-52, not Ka-50.

[ALEXXX1983]

Quote: Avis-bis

The main helicopter of the family was Ka-52, not Ka-50.

I agree - if you take a family, a single-person modification requires more complex and expensive electronics (and we are not able to create it normally). And if you take the troops, the main ones are the just named Mi-24 deer crocodiles and their modification Mi 35. And not a few Ka-52. And their percussion function is often performed by the “eternal” (1965) Mi-8 and Mi-17 - which, in essence, is the same.

[yehat]

it happens that helicopters carry bombs and even such exotic ones as gas barrels
for this, an attack helicopter is not needed - the Mi-8 will do.

[Jerk]

Yeah, that's exactly the same Mi ... Well, there is Ka, and 50 and 52 are. But to say that they became the "main attack helicopter" ... This is overkill. That's the way with Armata. And in general with expensive weapons. The states over there also boasted of being "smart and precise." And how did it end? The fact that it even reached them that to drive expensive penny jeeps with a karamultuk in the back is expensive. And the ancient ammunition rushed, shelling the cities on the squares and instead of the F-35 they buy Super Tucano.
Why did it happen?

[NordOst16]

But only at the same time they have more than a large fleet of completely modern aviation and ships. And we, not having a normal fleet and tanks, are trying to supply one thing with junk - we added ten to the number and already new equipment that has no analogues

[Foxmara]

Under the task and, accordingly, the size of the economy. Plus it is paid by the robbed countries of the 3rd world. And now Europe also has to pay. Nevertheless, it is in the states that have lately been crying that the Russians, with their micro-budget, are quite capable of resisting the empire of good. And they even solve military tasks better and faster. Vaughn and BV appreciated. Invitations to dispatch from Libya and the Central African Republic were sent. But the United States, which has a huge default and the Air Force, is not inviting anywhere except to the Baltic states.

[Avis-bis]

Quote: ALEXXX1983

if you take the troops, the main ones are just the crocodiles deer Mi-24

And where did I say the opposite?
Mi-8 arr. 1960s is not the same as the current Mi-8. And, moreover, not the same as the Mi-17. The difference between Boeing 737-200 and Boeing 737-MAKS

[Blackgrifon]

Quote: Jerk

Something on footage from Syria is basically not Ka

But only in dry numbers, the Ka-52 becomes the main attack helicopter, in terms of procurement there are more than the Mi-35/28. Yes, and in Syria, it’s from the videoconferencing system that the Ka-52 shines more often from the video.

[yehat]

everything needs a measure.
our 24 thousand tanks in 41 didn’t play anything against about 7 thousand German, because besides mass there are many other factors.
And near Kursk, the number of our aircraft did not prevent the Germans from gaining dominance in the sky, although it was like there were yaks, shops, and experience was gained.
armata - a tank necessary for the army, because we do not have machines that can do something with a frontal attack with small losses. And forever, the T72 is impossible to upgrade.
Now the vast majority of NATO tanks are 20 tons heavier than ours and this affects combat effectiveness, and the poor approach to equipping the tank needs to be changed. We are already used to the fact that our tanks have the most primitive SLAs, the simplest communications, inexpensive sub-caliber shells, etc. This saving has come sideways so many times!
Do you really want to step on the rake again?

[Golovan Jack]

Quote: yehat

our tanks have the most primitive SLAs, the easiest connection, inexpensive sub-caliber shells

Do you have anything to do with tanks? I would like more detail - what is the "primitiveness" of the TMS of the same T72B3, what is a "complex" connection (unlike the "simplest" one, what is an "expensive" ammunition shells).
It is also very interesting since when they began to measure the combat effectiveness of the tank in tons.
Thank you.

[yehat]

"in tons" - reserves for increasing protection and equipment
NATO lagged behind us in the efficiency of spending this resource,
but dozens of years of modernization and they have been taught something.

primitiveness of the SLA - I won’t even comment. Want to pretend to be boots, it's up to you. The topic was discussed 100 times on the site.

I call many things indirectly, by signs, without going into the details that you so want to get - these are thousands of lines of text, but problems have accumulated in tanks

as for my attitude to tanks - I used to have it in the field of developing the latest "heavy" defense systems, this topic was directly related to most of the heavy armored vehicles and ships. Sorry, I will not speak.

[Golovan Jack]

Quote: yehat

"in tons" - reserves for increasing protection and equipment

Nifiga didn’t understand, but oh well.

Quote: yehat

primitiveness of the SLA - I won’t even comment. Want to pretend to be boots, it's up to you. The topic was discussed 100 times on the site

The main characteristics of TPV "Sosna-U":
- optical day channel;
- thermal imaging channel, which uses a second generation thermal imaging camera with 8-12 micron characteristics;
- laser range finder;
- channel to control missiles;
- distance to 5 kilometers of detection of objects of the class "tank";
- independent 2-plane stabilization of the review

 For example

https://topwar.ru/16618-mnogokanalnoe-teplovizion
noe-pricelnoe-prisposoblenie-navodchika-sosna-uh
tml

Add - there is a target tracking system there. Primitive? Oh well...
As for boots - it's you in vain, I'm vindictive
In general, "not a word is a mystery." What is this "heavy armored vehicles", for example ...
Okay, thanks, boom to assume that I understand you

[yehat]

heavy - this is what is planned to somehow protect against armament no weaker than a heavy machine gun, 30 mm armor-piercing guns and hand grenade launchers.
as for pine-U - what percentage of our tank fleet is equipped with this OMS?
moreover, even the Chinese LMS is now more sophisticated - with built-in thermal imagers, coordinate coordinates, algorithms for transmitting and receiving target designation, the application of anti-mask and anti-weather filters and other buns, I heard that the Chinese are trying to teach their LMS to interact with drones.
The pine tree, which is "U", is today a minimally sufficient system, but far from what we would like to have and it is far from everywhere.
Finally, 5 km detection of the "tank" object limits the range of missiles and a number of other negative features.
but what I say, you yourself know very well that pine-u is far from ideal.

[Golovan Jack]

Quote: yehat

you yourself know very well that pine-y is far from ideal

The ideal is unattainable.
Pine, "which", is installed on the very T72B3 during modernization.
There is a thermal imager on Sosna-U.

Quote: yehat

Finally, 5 km detection of the “tank” object limits the range of missiles and a number of other negative features

Well, spherical horses went into action ... at the intersection, you will not see the tank further. Nothing but a drone.
What am I talking about - all of your theoretical fabrications seem to me somewhat, um, far-fetched.
This is despite the fact that in my time I had somewhat closer relations with tanks than you.
Actually, that's all. What I wanted - I found out.

[yehat]

if the USSR had not collapsed, now the tanks would be completely different.
there would be no diesels, no turbines, no DZ. The gun would radically change -
there was a whole range of promising developments, one of which was the rail (a program for reducing the overall dimensions of the ammunition as with the Americans).
I am not aware of the details, but a major change was planned in the type of naval and anti-personnel weapons, target designation systems (approximately like drones now), I saw with my own eyes the development of a new generation of ballistic computers, as well as closed work on a rocket at the physics department - a mix of spike and cluster ammunition (this is about your link to the intersection). In general, it doesn’t look like it’s crawling around polygons now.

[Golovan Jack]

Quote: yehat

if the USSR did not fall apart ...

... then she would be a grandfather. Sorry, inspired.

Quote: yehat

now the tanks would be completely different

About "absolutely" - not sure. Nobody has invented a new wheel yet.
And so, yes - the USSR really had a “shift” in arms (more guns, less oil), so probably something new would have been born.

Quote: yehat

there would be no diesels, no turbines, no DZ

About how
Nuclear reactor?

Quote: yehat

The gun would radically change - there was a whole range of promising developments

I grew up in the USSR, and managed to work. In particular, when creating Buran.
There was a promising development mulion, and only a few went into business. Is it clear now?

Quote: yehat

planned and a major change in the type of chassis

??!

Quote: yehat

anti-personnel weapons

???? !! something instead of pct?

Quote: yehat

saw with my own eyes the development of a new generation of ballistic computers

They are now - new ...

Quote: yehat

Closed rocket work - a mixture of spike and cluster munition

Cool...

Quote: yehat

this is about your crossover link

Stop.

Quote: Golovan Jack

at the intersection you tank further and will not see

And what about the ammunition? I'm talking about people who are in the tank, and who give, um, a command to use this ammunition ...

Quote: yehat

In general, it’s not at all like crawling around polygons now

The funny thing is that it would seem that nobody interfered with the same Germans or the USA. They didn’t fall apart.
However, the fact that they are crawling now has not gone far from what was crawling in the 80s.
However, the trend (c)

[NordOst16]

Well, sub-calibers - longer sub-calibers do not fit into AZs, which sharply limit the effectiveness of our tanks (because only lengthening can solve the problem of breaking through the opponent’s armor).
And, if I’m not mistaken, the T72B3 didn’t set a panoramic sight, the driver’s mechanic’s driver’s night vision is too short-sighted, etc.

[yehat]

it is still uncomfortable that only the commander owns the situation. the rest do not see anything

[Vadim237]

There are no such vehicles in the world, a “frontal attack” - this attack will be broken by ATGMs that hit the roof and enemy artillery, as well as kamikaze drones

[yehat]

it only speaks of the wretchedness of work on the active protection of machines.

[Vadmir]

Armata was positioned as a command vehicle mainly

How much can you duplicate this stupidity ?!
The commander’s tank cannot be different from the main ones; otherwise, it is the number one target, and therefore a corpse.
Even during the war in Spain, this became known to everyone, apparently except for those who write such nonsense. In Spain, for those who do not know, the commander BT and T-26 were knocked out the only distinguishing feature of which were the handrail antennas. The primary knockout of commander tanks leads to disorganization of troops.
If you read the article, you should have noticed the number 2300, it was exactly the number of tanks that were planned to be purchased, so there was no talk of any command tank, it was supposed to be the main tank of the Russian army. And later, when the figure decreased, it was always said that. that it’s temporary, and then purchases will continue.
Who just launched this fake that Armata will be a command vehicle.

[yehat]

ours began in July 1941 to successfully knock out the Pz III commander tanks and officers leaning out of their hatches, recognizing them by an additional antenna. The Germans lost a serious amount of experienced commanders in 1 month.

[Vadim237]

And ours lost, in a month, 11000 tanks.

[yehat]

almost 18000 were lost by mid-July.
moreover, 3/4 of them remained on roads or in garages or at railway stations or at destroyed crossings - abandoned.
It also turned out to be hit quite a bit - but only about 700-800.

[tornado]

"18 thousand?" The same garbage as millions of prisoners. All these are "paper figures". In real life, there were not 000 thousand.

[Vadim237]

Unfortunately, this is true, since 30% of Western soldiers simply did not want to fight, for the Soviet power, some simply ran away, and still others, abandoned by the command, fought.

[yehat]

stop repeating nonsense from time to time - I regularly see your posts in this style.
there were neither western nor eastern soldiers, there were no mass "did not want" or abandoned. No need to separate episodes to rule.
As for the deserters - that was. But it was not the soldiers who deserted, but the local recruits who were drafted just a few months or weeks ago, because The Red Army sharply increased 3 times in number, but was not provided with non-commissioned personnel and officers in the right amount - they simply did not have time.

[Vadim237]

It was just that everything was told here - demon of beautiful pictures, that it was and it looks more like the truth, since the mundane, without any stupid urapotriatism

[yehat]

let's give a concrete example better. Kiev boiler. The Germans say-captured more than 600 thousand soldiers of the Red Army. (and in reality there was something about 580 thousand people. More than 20 thousand were taken prisoner several times - and released). So the amount was accumulated. Well, actually - 340 thousand unarmed "assistants" assigned to the army are not soldiers, about 70-80 thousand more (according to various sources) are just met people who are visually fit according to the ideas of the soldiers for army service. And suddenly, the number of captured soldiers shrinks from a staggering half a million to about 80-120 thousand (including many wounded). Which is also a lot, but still 5 times less. I’m demonstrating this to you as real figures and events are interpreted by “honest” historians and sources. And then, on this basis, conclusions are drawn and "processes" are created. There was a lot at the front and a lot of bad, only the scale is greatly misinterpreted.

[yehat]

It was. in the western districts there were almost 16 thousand tanks, plus a bunch of wedges and other armored vehicles on a harp. of which about 1300 are the latest Kv-1 and T34 tanks plus some T28i Kv-2, which were quite modern at that time.

[Black sniper]

We export T-90s to Vietnam, every fourth commander’s, they have a different abbreviation!

[Vadmir]

Mass is needed, 1 super-duper Me-262 or the Royal Tiger does not play against 50 Yaks or 100 thirty-four !!!

It is difficult to argue with this, but now is not the time of the USSR, when we had a huge army and multiple superiority in the number of tanks, on the contrary. we now have, officially voiced, the concept of a compact, professional and well-armed army.
Therefore, either it is necessary to change the concept and increase the size of the army, or to saturate the army with the most modern weapons.
Well, or forget about the status of a great power and keep quiet in a rag, even when what happens happens at our borders.

[NordOst16]

What a great power? Only on paper. It is necessary to invest in the economy, but it is not profitable, where it is better to relax on the Cote d'Azur

[Foxmara]

What economic numbers did you mean? If by GDP, then "the Russian economy (according to 2017) takes the sixth place among the countries of the world in terms of GDP by PPP."
According to other sources, the 11th, after Canada and South Korea.

[Avis-bis]

Quote: Jerk

piston Super Tucano

[Strategia]

Big battalions have more people. That is, let’s put 99 tank crews of the “thirty-fours,” but we’ll fail the crew of the “tiger”. Wow, strategists!

[yehat]

Shkolota-level logic. Tanks with tanks usually did not fight.

[Strategia]

I won’t argue with shkolota - it is futile. Even the level of the 2nd year of the military school is not visible ...

[yehat]

You still compare 999 t34-ok and one mouse. like a cherry on a cake.

[vindigo]

By your logic, then you need to do the T-34

[Strashila]

The next ... the boss, u, was gone ... but the production workers themselves are ready ... ???, in order to assess the cost of the machine and its capabilities, it is necessary to transfer the maximum configuration to the troops of the machine, logically ... and only then make an assessment, the principle will work ... it can be delivered, but it is not ... well, let’s do it, the question arises from here ... subcontractors are ready to give the same 100 sets to the mountain ... ready to supply spare parts and accessories ... if so, then it’s wonderful. .. and if not, then it takes time to resolve this issue. The question arises if it is planned to release the equipment of a new generation tank as much as possible on previous models to unify and increase combat effectiveness. So far, some questions and not only money ... so that later investigators do not come and open new cases of fraud.

[Black sniper]

Uralvagonzavod order from MO for 100pcs. T-14 Armata! For 2020, the order is 250pcs., So

[Blackgrifon]

Quote: Black Sniper

The next ... boss u was gone ... but the production workers themselves are ready

Well here it is not necessary. Only a person very far from technology believed that right now, immediately in 2015, there would be a contract for 2500 valves. They will be driven in trial operation for another 2-3 years (the lessons from the mass purchase of T-64 with a mass of children's sores have not gone away), and then they will begin to slowly purchase. For that matter, now there is a contract for 100 cars. Let's wait, sir. But the most important thing in the Armata-Kurganets-Boomerang program was still not a tank, but a heavy-medium-wheeled infantry fighting vehicle and self-propelled gun range, and that’s what you need to worry about. True, Borisov’s speech flashed an interesting phrase about “BMP-4,” and this gives considerable hope.

[NordOst16]

And everything will end as with the Ukrainian Bastions - the Thai armed forces use it, and theirs on Soviet junk. At such a pace in the Chinese or Indian troops, he will appear earlier than in a significant number of our armored

[Foxmara]

How Ukraine will fail. We are far from the Sumerians. However, Taiwan seems to have abandoned them. At the last competitions in NATO, they could neither go nor shoot. And so it’s all there, armored personnel carriers burst in armored personnel carriers, barrels in tanks are not of a standard (they don’t do specialized plants), mortars kill their calculations.
Our news also floats and rides and flies as expected. And shoots.
Indeed, upgrading the T72 is cheaper, it can be right to rearm quickly, and the war in Syria has shown that even with the right tactics, even the T-54 is fighting quite successfully, and in urban areas they give excellent results.
T-72 is not just a lot, but a lot, let them upgrade and assemble new ones in parallel. The world is turbulent, and the budget is not ovish. However, the USA has been exploiting its abrashes for 40 years, although they have enough money.

[Cinema]

will not be so will not .... what now?

[ZVO]

Quote: Cinema

will not be so will not .... what now?

Now we need for good all those who were engaged in Armata, both from the customer. and from the side of the performer - to shoot!
With the whole family up to 5-7 knees ...
For stupidity, negligence in planning the needs of the Army, R&D, modeling of production technical maps, modeling of the production base, etc.
All ...

And then we spent almost 300 billion on the program - and that’s it ...
there is no more money.
And this is provided that a lot of the armata has been worked out in the concept since Soviet times.
There was no need for real research.
here we are.

[Strashila]

The country has rich experience in project plans for the army and armaments ... Tukhachevsky, Khrushchev ... you certainly need to think about the future, but be realistic ... we want a cow, but we can let goat ... milk is certainly less, but there is still fluff.

[spektr9]

you must certainly think about the future, but be realistic ...

Ok, there are countries that cannot afford to contain troops, acquire planes and tanks, what do they do then? Correctly fall under a strong neighbor. Are we achieving this?

[Vadim237]

Under Khrushchev created a missile shield.

[Strashila]

Khrushchev completed what Stalin began, all projects began under him. He ditched the fleet and the barrel artillery ... had to make an expensive return.

[Vadim237]

Aha completed, the first intercontinental ballistic missile in the USSR - when did it appear?

[Strategia]

Did she come from scratch? Stalin’s backlog in the nuclear missile sphere is still in use.

[Vadim237]

What kind of backlog is we using now?

[Foxmara]

I was born and raised in a city built under Stalin in 1950. Under the nuclear industry. The city still stands and works. Universities, plants for rocket science and the atom were built at the same time. During the Khrushchev’s construction projects, I don’t remember, except perhaps the Khrushchev’s, which were supposed to stand before communism ... The Bratsk Hydroelectric Power Station, Kuzbass, Donbass .. Remind me if you know what else happened to him? The groundwork was made exactly a hundred under Stalin.

[yehat]

under Khrushchev, they also built it, but it was just a continuation of the program laid down by the Beria department. I am from such a city.

[sgrabik]

Why did all this imaginary rearmament of the army, aviation and navy be conceived, for a show, it will not work here and there can be no intermediate options either, each, even the best equipment, has its own aging limit, which no modernization can already change, apparently for the sake of all sorts of Kudrin - Shmudrin and the like, a fat cross was put on the further reform of our armed forces and everything will be reduced only to the modernization of equipment and weapons created back in the USSR, but I will repeat again, any modernization has its limit after whom she becomes just meaningless. To be more concise, the thesis of some of our well-known leaders is now extended to our army, namely: "There is no money, but you stay there."

[igorbrsv]

Why is there no rearmament?

[Jerk]

Quote: 100502

That justifies theft

Not so. Theft is when they push through the construction of Zyamov, Zamvoltov, and then it turns out that:
* There is no armament for them.
* even shells for new, worse, armaments - NO.
* He stupidly is not capable of fulfilling the declared tasks.
* But at the same time, two have already been built, the money was cut.
And after that - they begin to call them experienced, or still somehow special operations ships, disguising this as something they themselves can’t understand - they built them and what to do with them, but in fact they stupidly lit up the sucker (government ) on the grandmother, steaming a cat instead of a rabbit.

[Cinema]

yeah yeah yeah ... comfort yourself your barn is burning and you are glad about the death of a cow at a neighbor

[Fungus]

There will be Armats. The first batch of 200 tanks. So don’t worry.

[yehat]

the problem is not in quantity, but in the fact that the program is not being developed.
Armata is still a very crude platform and in order to bring it to effective use, you need to invest quite a bit of money, but they are not there.
therefore, it doesn’t matter if they put 1, 200 or 1000 tanks into the army — these are exhibition vehicles with limited combat effectiveness.

[Vadim237]

Don’t worry, it’s just military that it’s beneficial to make the T 14 tank robotic.

[yehat]

in our country there is no such industry as robotics (quote from the guru from the Central Research Institute of RTK).
This means that mass production of robotic technology is not possible.
only handicrafts in institutes

[Vadim237]

All sorts of “gurus” pass by your eyes and ears, if there were no robotics - there is such a faculty in Baumanka, then there wouldn’t be any “Fedorov” “Uranium 6,9” and others.

[ZVO]

Quote: Vadim237

All sorts of “gurus” pass by your eyes and ears, if there were no robotics - there is such a faculty in Baumanka, then there wouldn’t be any “Fedorov” “Uranium 6,9” and others.

Uranium - stupidly remotely controlled ...

[yehat]

do-it-yourself crafts do nothing; this is not industrial production.

[Vadim237]

And what kind of Uranus 6, 9 production - basement or what?

[NordOst16]

Is it massive? We even have CNC on "Russian" machines imported, what kind of robotics ??? !!!

[Vadim237]

And what, what is imported - we know how to write programs - we know how, computers for the military and software do - do - do - we are moving towards the creation of robotic technology.

[yehat]

we can and have different things.

[Vadim237]

Tell the Navy, to the designers of the Poseidons, the Harpsichords, the Tsifalopods and other unmanned underwater vehicles.

[NordOst16]

Only now we are moving at the same pace as in the DPRK are moving towards the prosperity of the people. Why do we need robotic technology? We have a bunch of low-paid workers who can do everything without any robots, something like the truth, but cheaper. We do not have a demand for robotics, there is no civilian market for it, but we won’t be able to go far for the military-industrial complex - not the USSR

[Vadim237]

In mechanical engineering, robotics is in demand.

[kuz363]

I read the note. that cadets of some Siberian school found a way to fight Armata with simple RPG-7. They shot at the tank from 2 grenade launchers with an interval of 1-2 seconds. If the first rocket Armata manages to hit. then she needs a few seconds to reload the ammunition for the next shot. Meanwhile, a second rocket flies in with hi. And if you use 3 grenade launchers? So for each lock you can pick up your key

[Cruorvult]

Seriously, you think that cadets at school are allowed to shoot at “Armat”, what kind of nonsense :-D Yes, and “Afganit” does not “recharge” like “Trophy”.

[Strashila]

And what's new ... according to this scheme, Ossetians burned Georgian tanks in 2008.

[yehat]

The Georgians had almost no tanks - mainly the infantry in Turkish armor, jeeps and artillery.
I personally spoke with the Ossetians who participated in 2 wars with Georgia.

[Vadim237]

Yes, they all abandoned them when they retreated - several dozens of T 72 were left.

[Alekseev]

Quote: kuz363

I read the note. what

It is not only necessary to read notes.
then you would know that a grenade is fired from a grenade launcher, but a grenade, at relatively short distances and RPG-7 grenades are weakly effective against frontal armor with DZ of modern MBT. It is also well known for those who are interested that in KAZ all ammunition is already loaded, this is not a fusee.
KAZ was created against melee combat vehicles, but mainly against anti-tank missiles.
As for the current cadets, and not only the "Siberian schools", they can not always find an effective way to combat hunger before lunch and sleep after it.
As for the volume and timing of the release of certain weapons, this is a "rating" topic for boltology in the media, but these volumes and terms are, in fact, secret.
Yes, it is possible that there is not enough funding for everything, but there is no need to panic too much. A new generation of BTTs will be made, technical progress cannot be stopped, although in the modern world strategic nuclear forces have taken the place of the old multimillion-strong armies and huge fleets.
And because of the need to support export opportunities, because competitors are not asleep.

[Laughtermaster]

the first rocket Armata will have time to hit ...
it takes a few seconds to reload the ammunition

And how does Armata reload there? Maybe you need to ask Rostik?

[vindigo]

Everything has long been invented against KAZ. RPG-30 double grenade fires. The first one is KAZ. The second pierces DZ and armor.

[URAL72]

Kuz363! It’s better to read the comment below, how they did it, and they’re right. And you seem to have quoted a wall opposite the toilet in a public toilet ...

[New Year day]

and how they walked in the parade, and how happy we were!
All in vain ...

[Fungus]

And if it’s not in vain how will you pay off?

[New Year day]

Quote: Fungus

And if it’s not in vain how will you pay off?

Deputy Prime Minister already otmazatsya?

[Fungus]

No. When the tanks go into the army will you change your shoes?

[ZVO]

Quote: Fungus

No. When the tanks go into the army will you change your shoes?

When 1000 tanks come, what kind of nickname will you start broadcasting?
You’ve probably already changed the third on this site ...

And if there are no 1000 tanks?
As we were told about 2300. then about 1000 ...

Are you not changing shoes?

Write the full name, address. age - so that you can come to those people whom you "teach" here - and ask you - where are 1000 tanks on time ...

[Voyager]

The question is, will these tanks go into the army? The question is how many will go. From the very beginning there were phrases about several thousand. Then in hundreds, and now, as it were, not limited to dozens.

[Vadim237]

Do not remember who said about 2300 platforms for the first time?

[ZVO]

Quote: Vadim237

Do not remember who said about 2300 platforms for the first time?

A few characters ...

Here it’s not bad painted
http://forum.militaryparitet.com/viewtopic.php?id
= 16812

[Vadim237]

In short, another fiction from the Internet.

[ZVO]

Quote: Vadim237

In short, another fiction from the Internet.

Those. Director General's words - denied ...

It’s very easy with you - you always change shoes on the fly ...
In any case, you will always turn out ...
The chief designer / CEO said - some kind of ridiculous news - URY - right there - he knows you best, he knows what he says. He is authoritative, and who are you? And you are a couch warrior ...

If time has passed, then you turn around - but who is this director general of UVZ, he is not the Minister of Defense, he does not need to be trusted.


Always change shoes on the fly ...
I’ve been here for several years now - and I see this in every article with an ur-burn ...

[Vadim237]

The first time I read this figure in an article on VPK name ru, the article was from an unnamed source - someone who heard something and started to write the same thing from article to article. And I don’t need to ascribe me to “Uradurachki” and other guys, I don’t like this tank, how the platform for technology will come down, and the tank is so-so. And unlike the others, I really work for the defense industry, in particular, we are fulfilling the contract for the Tactical Missile Arms concern - I am an adjacent.

[Vadim237]

Who are you talking about now?

[NordOst16]

Yes, about all our power, from top to bottom. That's just a pity you can’t call it in your own words

[lis-ik]

Quote: ZVO

Write the full name, address. age - so that you can come to those people whom you "teach" here - and ask you - where are 1000 tanks on time ..

Who are you arguing with? This is Troll and Gopnik, two in one. Just ignore it, although he probably doesn’t know such words, he will think that he called.

[ZVO]

Quote: lis-ik

Quote: ZVO

Write the full name, address. age - so that you can come to those people whom you "teach" here - and ask you - where are 1000 tanks on time ..

Who are you arguing with? This is Troll and Gopnik, two in one. Just ignore it, although he probably doesn’t know such words, he will think that he called.

Well, I want a little bit ...

[NordOst16]

And if all the same in vain - what will you do?

[Strashila]

I recall the jokes about inflatable rockets and rubber bombs.

[NordOst16]

Are you an inflatable rocket - it's expensive

[Jerk]

Quote: mark1

It (production) is handicraft, piece-work.

Over the past five years, our country, in the course of rearmament of troops, has put into operation more than 25 thousand units of new armored and automobile equipment and over 4 thousand modern models of missile and artillery weapons. This is reported by Rambler. Further: https://news.rambler.ru/weapon/40460278/?utm_cont
ent = rnews & utm_medium = read_more & utm_source
= copylink

[mark1]

Quote: Jerk

piece.
Over the past five years, our country, in the course of rearmament of troops, has put into operation more than 25 thousand units of new armored and automobile equipment and over 4 thousand modern models of missile and artillery weapons. This is reported by Rambler. Further: https://news.rambler.ru/weapon/40460278/?utm_cont
ent = rnews & utm_medium = read_more & utm_source
= copylink

A distinction must be made between automotive and armored vehicles and also between the overhaul of junk and new products. Not everything is as colorful as Borisov is grinding, and not only in the field of tank building.

[ALEXXX1983]

Quote: Jerk

Over the past five years, our country, in the course of rearmament of troops, has put into operation more than 25 thousand units of new armored and automotive vehicles ...

... the bulk of which were comfortable SUVs and luxury sedans for command.

[1536]

Today, a new tank is not needed, tomorrow a new tomograph or laser for medicine, and after tomorrow everything will return to normal?

[Fungus]

You were told at the General Staff that it wasn’t needed. Yes?

[KERMET]

As small children, take a walk or something, otherwise everything or a TV or a site is done with us

[Vadim237]

The site “Made with us” is better and the rest, for example, Techpromportal, cover the whole country - than a television, where they show nothing besides nonsense.

[YUG64]

I remember - and I will never forget - such articles from the time of the unforgettable Serdyukov ... The generals and colonels wrote such that the heart was clenched with fists, and I wanted to pick up Kalash and shoot everyone and everything is not clear where .... Since then I have immunity for mourners and all-crawlers. You can mock and bury the Russian army further. I don’t care.

[Nikolay87]

Article fire! Everything is in the spirit.

[Narak-zempo]

What varied, all-wearers? It’s written that without Armat, we have the world's strongest armored forces: https://warfiles.ru/185339-bronetankovyy-kulak-ro
ssii-stal-samym-moschnym-v-mire.html

[Vadim237]

New ammunition for tanks, needed like air.

[aristok]

she simply does not have worthy competitors on the battlefield - all Abrams and Leopards can only serve the latest Russian tank as “sparring rivals”

This is of course a masterpiece !!!
true knightly nobility
after the military of the whole world should cry when they realize their own lowland
and will be asked under the banners of the mundialissimus
So win!

[Ruslan Gainutdinov]

It is necessary to look at this business with a positive. We will be grateful to the bourgeois government for the fact that under it, at least somehow the development begun in the USSR continues. For the authorities, this will be a mitigating circumstance when the Soviets send them to benefit society by labor, and not into the Ipatiev basement

[Bad thing]

Quote: Jerk

"God is on the side of the BIG battalions!"

When there is someone to complete these battalions. Or admit that, “Armata” did not work. It turned out to draw a cartoon, and then it coincided with the beginning of import substitution, and wagging began backwards, now it’s completely no longer necessary.

[lis-ik]

Quote: Bad

Quote: Jerk

"God is on the side of the BIG battalions!"

When there is someone to complete these battalions. Or admit that, “Armata” did not work. It turned out to draw a cartoon, and then it coincided with the beginning of import substitution, and wagging began backwards, now it’s completely no longer necessary.

There is a persistent feeling that almost everything did not work out, the backlog of the USSR ended and wagging began, then there is no money, then the “Dagger” was stolen and there is no sense in developing it. Tell me simply, no shit comes out, and I don’t feel like spending money on the defense industry, because the last six years, and how much has not been stolen yet!

[Bad thing]

Sergei, it’s not sad, but it seems that you are right.

[yehat]

the backlog of the USSR did not end. the backlog of the USSR is a theoretical science that provides up to 50-70 years of development in some areas. They dug especially deeply in mathematics and applied disciplines.

[Vadim237]

And what did they accumulate in mathematics and applied disciplines - there was not even an MRI in the USSR, they could not do a thermal imager, there were problems with civilian aircraft, as well as with all civilian products. The USSR fell apart and it turned out that Russia had no competitive products except military ones, and what was on the shelves of oblivion, the authors came, dusted off their inventions and left abroad with them. Now everything has begun to be produced, in cooperation with foreign companies, simultaneously creating its own new one.

[Avis-bis]

Quote: Vadim237

thermal imager could not do

The thermal imager (experimental) was made back in the 1930s.

there were problems with civilian aircraft

Which ones?

[Vadim237]

Well done in the 30s, and then - only night vision devices went. In addition to Tu 154 and IL 62 - was there anything significant in the series?

[Avis-bis]

Quote: Vadim237

In addition to Tu 154 and IL 62 - was there anything significant in the series?

Family An-24 (almost three thousand aircraft), Yak-40 (one thousand two hundred), IL-18 (eight hundred). Etc.
All the same, I wonder what such problems were "with civilian aircraft"? Did the Tu-104 crash? Well, so, the second reactive civilian, the pioneers always have problems. Did the An-10 wing fly off? Well, Lockheed 188, too. Stabilizer in the Yak-42? Read about the disaster MD-8x due to problems with the PB. Well, and so on; the level of problems is average in the world.

[yehat]

again a victim of the exam
were MRI in the USSR and competitive products were dofiga.
only light industry was the victim of cutbacks in diversification.

[Vadim237]

Where he was there - in a single copy, even the normal medical equipment was not. "Competitive products were dofiga" - Which one is more detailed? I am waiting for an answer - from the victim of the exam on the whole head ..

[yehat]

study the question and don’t jump on people with foam at the mouth
it is clear that you know nothing.

[Vadim237]

So they didn’t cite any examples - what products were competitive in the USSR?

[yehat]

the most famous examples are commander watches, cameras
Muscovite 412 was at one time a super popular car and exported in large volumes. But it’s better to look for examples yourself, just compare things of one year, and not the 8th iPhone with a phone in Stalin’s office.
for me, the most striking example is a can opener. In the USSR, I could find an excellent one at the nearest hardware store for 20-30 cents, but now you can find a good fig with a suitcase of money.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Vadim237

that in addition to military products, Russia has no competitive products

Bullshit. I already wrote to you here, how Japan bought machines from us. Receivers to the west loaded millions, cameras, even costumes of the Bolshevichka factory. You probably didn’t hear about them, but I bought them in 90, already for almost a hundred bucks.

[Vadim237]

About the machines, I am aware - these machines were large, in my opinion milling with a bed of 6 meters or more, and now they are buying bulldozers from us, and Russia sends the machines for export.

[Recoil]

The author, please formulate your thought, suggestion. What are you calling for?

[Kot_Kuzya]

Under Stalin, they spared no money on developing the latest weapons, although the country then had neither gas nor oil. But by the beginning of 1941, Soviet fighters and commanders had the best tanks in the world, the best artillery in the world, comparable to the Germans, British and Americans, small arms and aviation. But in today's Russia there is no money for the release of a miserable thousand modern tanks. Until the Central Bank of the Russian Federation is nationalized, and until it ceases to be a branch of the Fed, there will never be enough money. It is time to seize the Central Bank, and so already imposed sanctions on Crimea, it will not get worse. But when the Government of the Russian Federation controls the issue of the ruble, and not the Chairman of the Central Bank and its Board of Directors, independent of the Government and the President, then there will be enough money for everything.

[igorbrsv]

Under Stalin, too, did not have time to complete the rearmament. Too slow. Reminiscent of modern times. But then it was possible to embark on a war footing, but now not. This is not to blame Stalin, because it was possible to instigate a war

[lukewarm]

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

But when the issue of the ruble will be controlled by the Government of the Russian Federation

и

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

It's time to seize the Central Bank,

The duck government will be even worse than the central bank. So the capture of not only the central bank, but also the government, mail, telephone, telegraph All according to V.I. Lenin. Dangerously. So already in the 282nd and 280th spoken.

[yehat]

here is no hysterical strain
by the beginning of 41, the best tanks were not ours.
we didn’t have the best artillery either (read, for example, why in the Red Army the whole war did not have self-propelled guns of large caliber, why the 45th in the 41st didn’t "go", etc.) and the best planes were not with us,
but there were many modern and promising developments that provided sane results.

[Avis-bis]

Quote: yehat

in the red army all war there were no large-caliber self-propelled guns

A very bold statement. And funny. What kind of "large-caliber self-propelled guns" did not have the Red Army? If we discard all the “stormtiger” crap, then what was the chance with the Hans that we did not have? 153 mm? 200mm? Or maybe 1200mm?
About planes is also funny. Our aviation, perhaps, was not “the most-most” (for reference, the “most-most” does not exist, there is a “best technique for these conditions”), but it was quite up to date with it. We started the Second World War not only with I-153 / -16.

[Kot_Kuzya]

Weren't the T-34s, T-50s and KVs the best medium, light and heavy tanks? ZIS-3 was not the best division? ZIS-2 was not the best anti-tank gun? Was the M-30 the best divisional howitzer? Wasn't the ML-20 the best corps howitzer gun? Wasn't the 120mm mortar the best? No wonder the Germans completely copied it and began to release it in 1943.

[yehat]

believe less cheers propaganda.
Read more documentation with technical specifications and specific episodes of application, reviews.

[Kot_Kuzya]

That is, SVT was worse than Mauser 98k? PPSh worse than MP-40? Is the T-34 worse than the T-3 and T-4? IS-2 worse than Panther and Tiger? Is IL-2 worse than U-87? Is La-5 worse than FV-190 and Me-109? M-30 worse than 105 and 150 mm howitzers? Did you know that the Germans did not have 120-mm mortars, and they were forced to copy this mortar from the Red Army and begin to produce their 12-mm mortar regiment level, an exact copy of the Soviet 120-mm mortar?

[yehat]

do not interfere with the rifle and mortars with guns and howitzers. Just in terms of shooting the USSR is very close to first place in the world.

[Kot_Kuzya]

Quote: yehat

Just in terms of shooting the USSR is very close to first place in the world.

Is this with the ancient, unbearable Maxims and the under-machine guns of DP with disk power? Maybe rifles and PPs were the best in the world at that time, but in terms of machine guns, the Red Army was full of seams, Maxims and DPs were completely inferior to the German MGs.

Quote: yehat

do not interfere with the rifle and mortars with guns and howitzers

In mortar weapons, the Red Army was the leader, as well the ZIS-3 was the best gun of the division level, the ZIS-2 was the best PT gun of its caliber, the M-30 and ML-20 were also recognized as one of the best in their class.

[yehat]

Maxim, although ancient, but during WW2 there was no more effective machine gun - ideal rate of fire + water cooling. When he made a lightweight frame, he became quite normal. The tar man is a good light machine gun. Recently I watched a video of an American gunsmith - from Afghanistan tarry brought. Feedback is sharply positive.
German MG - what is it? their 4 models were massively used
the most common - mg34 and 42. But the Germans did not have a machine gun level DShK. The Red Army also had other machine guns - Simonov, for example. As for the rifles. the three-rulers and the cavalry carbines were somewhat inferior to the German Mauser, but in general they were approximately equal. The Red Army had a mass-produced SVT - this is one of the best semi-automatic rifles in the world at that time. Plus PPSh, a very technologically advanced and efficient PP (much better than mp-40 or mp-38).
This combination of this entire rifleman aroused real envy among the Germans, who very willingly adopted the captured PPSh, SVT, and maxims.
DTs were usually not taken because he did not tactically fit into their squad work.
As for the light machine gun (mg-34 and 42, which is not entirely manual), the Germans actively used the Czech reset.

[Bad thing]

The Red Army also had other machine guns - Simonov, for example

Well, why so? Maybe still Goryunova (SG-43)?
And Maxim, before the beginning of the 90s, stood in the fortified areas in the east, but not because they were very good, but because the cooling system with forced circulation allowed for a long time to keep a high rate of fire.

[yehat]

Isn't that a cool little thing?

[Bad thing]

It was normal for UR, but as an infantry weapon it was heavy, shooting only from a machine gun, loves water, without a second number it shoots well only at the cinema (it is necessary to hold the tarpaulin tape so that there are no distortions) - byak.

[Kirill2017]

And where did the oil and gas come from?
They were with Stalin. But tanks, artillery and aviation, better than the Germans, were back in 32m.
And what is being offered is a military coup.

[alexnmv5]

The appearance of t 1941 on the battlefield in 34 was a complete surprise for the enemy. Why does someone now believe that the Russian Ministry of Defense should report on the exact number of tanks, on the exact location? What did they tell us? The truth? Let me remind you of the famous phrase from a good movie - can you give me the keys to the apartment where the money is? Do not worry, if these tanks are destined to enter the battlefield, they will leave. In the right amount and right place.

[Kot_Kuzya]

In my opinion, there is no need to hide the presence of modern weapons, as otherwise the enemy might think that you are weak and attack you. As the Caucasian proverb says: "Do not tempt your neighbor with your weakness," or as the Romans said: "If you want peace, get ready for war!" For example, the USA and the USSR, for example, when they acquired atomic and nuclear bombs, ICBMs, and other wunderwafes, they immediately announced this to the whole world, thus repelling the desire of the enemies to attack them.
As for this one:

The appearance of t 1941 on the battlefield in 34 was a complete surprise for the enemy.

Well, actually the head of Abwehr Canaris was an English agent, and he specially hid under the cloth reports about the latest tanks, planes and artillery of the USSR, specially created the impression of Hitler that the Red Army was fighting against old things, and could not withstand the Wehrmacht’s blow. It was not without reason that Hitler later said that if he knew that the USSR had so many tanks and so many newest models, then he would never attack the USSR. Therefore, by the way, Canaris was arrested and executed as an English spy. After all, the USSR used HF in the Winter War, and German agents should certainly have known such heavy tanks from the USSR, but such information did not reach Hitler, and this is possible only if the head of Abwehr did not allow such information to Hitler. Therefore, for German soldiers and commanders it was a complete surprise meeting with the Soviet T-34 and KV, with 120-mm mortars and SVT.

[alexnmv5]

So they report that we have no equal in the number of new armored vehicles in the troops. But the exact amount, where, etc. what for? Our partners are literally digging the earth in order to know this for sure, and we ourselves are on the silver platter, as was the case with Gorbachev and Yeltsin. No, really. Your thoughts are to the joy of enemies. No less.

[edasko]

Well, yes, underground factories work hard at night, crews train in tens of thousands, and secret (underground) exercises are held in secret divisions. And at hour X, a mighty army will come out from under the earth and pile on everyone. Do you yourself believe in that? You look at the shiny hydrocephalic physiognomy of our government. Can anything normal be expected from them? I love the army, but the army is nothing without society and the economy, and the economy drives the government (see above).

[igorbrsv]

By the way, in Syria, our troops became a complete surprise to the West, not to mention the appearance of the s-400, they instantly moved and deployed

[edasko]

Yes? In fact, evidence of our assistance to Assad appeared in 2011. And in 2015, everyone wondered if Putin would decide to directly officially intervene. This was preceded by the movement of goods through the Bosphorus and the construction and restoration of the runway. By the way, where does Syria come from? Some weapon suddenly appeared there, of which no one suspected the number?

[alexnmv5]

And if you go there? Do you think it will get better? Every nation has a government from God, according to its spiritual condition. What we are, such is the government.

[edasko]

Quote: alexnmv5

And if you go there? Do you think it will get better?

And I don’t know, maybe better, maybe worse. I’m not ready in many ways and do not aspire there, because I am aware of the responsibility and lack of ability and knowledge. I remember one of the philosophers said that only a mentally abnormal person can aspire to power voluntarily. It’s a little debatable, but our rulers cling to their posts with all their paws, in my opinion, just because of obvious reasons. Here is Stalin. Were you crazy? Probably yes. Even with good intentions to participate in the killing of a huge number of people, not everyone can. But he had only 3 rubles on his savings book after his death, by today's standards he was just a bum. He worked for the good of his country as best he could in his own way about the correctness.

Quote: alexnmv5

What we are, such is the government.

That's right now, yes, I agree. So you don’t have to lay illusive hopes on a superweapon forging in gnome underground workshops?

[Fedoslov]

You are talking nonsense, comrade. In a poor country with a poor raw-material economy, you can only finish the legacy of the USSR and pray that oil will not collapse in price.

[Kot_Kuzya]

Is that a horse's dream? Of course, I know that you hate us. But like that, you should not be scorched.

[Vadim237]

This is your poor head - with knowledge, and the economy is no longer raw, the export of non-raw products is 340 billion, of raw 230.

[Essex62]

And enlighten those who are not well-versed, why are we exporting this kind of resources and some weapons?

Quote: Vadim237

This is your poor head - with knowledge, and the economy is no longer raw, the export of non-raw products is 340 billion, of raw 230.

[Vadim237]

Please: rocket engines, optical instruments, agricultural machinery, locomotives, wagons, mining equipment, reactors, fuel elements, isotopes, all agricultural products, construction equipment, software, medical equipment, 3D printers for construction, measuring instruments, alloys and much more - you ask why this is not visible on the domestic market, it is on the domestic market, but not enough, it is much more profitable for manufacturers to push their products abroad, since the profit from this is twice as much from a unit than from sales in the country - thanks to the dollar and the euro for 63 and 70 rubles respectively.

[Fedoslov]

Where does the information come from, friend? Can share to finally open the eyes of everyone there behind the times?

[Vadim237]

From everywhere - from all the media.

[vindigo]

We precisely export wheat. Grain trucks go to the port with a rampart and moreover we sell the best wheat. That which is better left to ourselves.

[mark1]

Quote: alexnmv5

Do not worry, if these tanks are destined to enter the battlefield, they will leave. In the right amount and right place.

Get out, then they will come out ... but who will let them out !! ?? You probably really love the song about "our armored train on the siding" Here somewhere on the siding of the enterprise with the prepared technical process for Armata on the Su-57 and other "spare" cartoons, trained highly skilled workers (25 million commercials) with itchy golden hands they are sitting in ambush at the machine tools ... You, my friend. idealist. that all this was necessary to spend (not to cut) money on vocational education to expand and equip production and much more, regardless of whether it is market or not, and for some reason we have a budget surplus in short supply

[Bad thing]

Mark1!. You have not yet mentioned trained crews, well-coordinated subunits and military command and control bodies, an established technical support system, and a proven methodology for combat use. And this, too, has been developed over the years.

[yehat]

the appearance in 1941 of the battlefield t 34, was for the enemy a complete surprise

the funniest thing is that the Abwehr literally kicked his feet away from allusions to the existence of the t34-76a and kv-1a. For example, when talking with our commission, which was at the tank factories in Germany, ours were surprised that the Germans did not have a tank in the niche of 30-35 tons, which led to a number of curious pickets. In 40, Guderian was forbidden to speak out about Soviet tanks in OKH. His reports puzzled the high command. But in July 41 Germans literally had to put up with reality. The report that they saw heavy tanks in action on the Finnish front in the winter of 40 was simply ignored (our tanks didn’t reach the front, but the captured soldiers talked about them). Etc. If the Germans wanted to know the truth, they would have guessed that the Red Army had at least one tank heavier than 30 tons in a high degree of information.

[edasko]

The experts are super. If a serious mess starts, then:
The number of military aircraft in the United States is ~ 8, in our country - ~ 250.
We have only a few 4 ++ planes and count not 5 generations, and the United States has hundreds of them.
For the SU-57, the F-22 and F-35 are not competitors, so you can not do them. Well, with the tanks as well. But if the war begins and we see that the matter is bad, then quickly do it. And will factories stand at that time? And will resources be alright too? And how much time does one SU-57 or Armata take?
Well done article author. Power every day becomes worse and worse. Rather, build another Yeltsin center, damn it, we really miss it!

[Kot_Kuzya]

Quote: edasko

Rather, build another Yeltsin center, damn it, we really miss it!

The dream of every enemy of Russia: Yeltsin centers in every city and district center

[Vadim237]

If the war begins, it will end in 30 minutes, when the warheads hit all the targets, and your advice is to walk along, develop yourself and thoughts about the war will disappear.

[edasko]

Will not end. Everything is just beginning. You would read articles useful for development on this resource.

[Vadim237]

So the fact of the matter is that most of these articles do not need to be taken seriously.

[edasko]

Vadim, what should be taken seriously? For example:
https://topwar.ru/143116-yadernye-strahi-i-illyuz
iya-security.html
what do you have against? Does your life experience, intellect, knowledge, allow you to refute these conclusions? Or, "develop and thoughts of war will disappear" based
on the fact that he is young, healthy and will live forever?

[Vadim237]

It’s just that no one bordering with us has the strength or equipment except China to fight with us, and even then the Chinese do not fight with Russia, because it is aware that China will disappear in the procession when 2000 warheads are brought down on it, with USA is the same.

[edasko]

And in order to fight, do you need a common border? But doesn’t NATO have common borders and bases with us practically in the circle of Russia? And of course, NATO does not have enough manpower and equipment? But isn’t the accumulation of resources and the construction of military infrastructure taking place now in eastern Europe? They are probably going to grow flowers there. I envy you, you are convinced that everything will be fine. In Ukraine in 2013, if someone said that they would have a civil war and they would lose part of the territory, they would call him an idiot and advised him to take a walk and cleanse his brains. And how it all turned out ..

[Vadim237]

NATO is when in practice, one for all and each for itself. The Ukrainian army during the night can be smashed to smithereens, by aviation and artillery a large part of it is in the Donbass.

[yehat]

and the United States has hundreds of them

the United States has combat readiness of f-22 and f-35 in the amount of slightly more than 100, and then it is more likely conditional combat readiness,
to coincide with their technical description. Of the 8250 aircraft, at least a third will never fly anywhere, but simply listed on the balance sheet. The situation is better than German but not much. Sometimes just because of the climate. Therefore, the difference in the number of really modern aircraft is not large. But the difference in the reserves of experienced pilots is really big.
The biggest difference is in drones, carrier-based aircraft and AWACS. here the Russian Federation loses a lot.

[novel66]

there weren’t 41 tigers, and with the fact that the magpie coped at a time, but near Kursk, already 57mm would not be enough

[Kot_Kuzya]

In fact, even the 32-mm armor of the T-3, forty-five pierced from extremely close distances, from 100 meters or less. During the Polish campaign, the Red Army managed to seize the T-3, and in 1940 officially bought the brand new T-3, and the shelling of these two copies from the 45-mm gun brought nothing comforting for the leadership of the Red Army. And about Shtug-3 with 50-mm frontal armor and nothing to say.

[novel66]

nevertheless, the whole severity of the battle with tanks near Kursk was carried out by IPTABRA - forty-five heights and 76 mm divisions

[Kot_Kuzya]

If you read the statistics of the losses of the Tigers and Ferdinands, then most of them were burned from mines, and not from artillery. Even the side armor of the Tiger, and especially the Ferdinands, was invulnerable to 76 mm cannons. But 85-mm anti-aircraft guns, body 122-mm guns and 152-mm howitzer guns were very few.

[novel66]

By the way, I looked at the wiki
Penetration, mm

Armor-piercing projectile BR-240

The initial velocity of the projectile 750-770 m / s. Shell weight 1,43 kg.
meeting angle 90 ° from the tangent plane to the armor (normal)
at a distance of 100 m: 82 mm

meeting angle 60 ° from the tangent plane to the armor
at a distance of 500 m: 40 mm
at a distance of 1000 m: 28 mm

With the BR-240P projectile

The initial velocity of the projectile 1070 m / s. Projectile weight 0,85 kg.
meeting angle 90 ° from the tangent plane to the armor (normal)
at a distance of 350 m: 82 mm
at a distance of 500 m: 62 mm
Why didn’t I take 32mm?

[Kot_Kuzya]

Do you believe Wiki or reports from the training grounds where German tanks were tested by shooting? In fact, most of the anti-tank missiles were carried by 76 mm guns, since the 45 mm were weak, and the Soviet command was aware of this. During the years of the war, from 1942 to 1945, 25 thousand ZIS-3s were sent to the front in the VET, while only 45 thousand were manufactured for the 42 mm M-11 cannons.

[novel66]

I don’t know who to believe - these numbers also didn’t come from the ceiling, probably

[yehat]

even at the end of the war, even under the balonon, when the wrecked cars were watching, most of the hits were from 76mm guns, and almost all of them were on board.

[yehat]

57mm gun pierced the tiger in the forehead from distances at which he usually did not have time to detect it
and if it was close, then it could well penetrate it even through.
The problem was different - accuracy. Other guns could shoot trunks with experienced gunners or a mechanical water gun into the viewing slot, and with the 57mm ZIS-3 gun the scatter was such that it was possible to aim only approximately. This feature led to the fact that long-distance shooting was extremely ineffective. But the tiger had exactly the same problem. Is-2 from a distance of tigers was simply shot with impunity, winning much in accuracy and in the fact that the tiger couldn’t penetrate Isa’s frontal armor, but 122mm shells quite confidently broke even from a distance. Since the end of 44 years, Is-2 rarely approached targets closer than 2 km.

[Ber]

The good news is that they can return to the Black Eagle project or to a more perfect one.
Since even the recharge rate of the battery is ten times faster than that of Almaty

[novel66]

152 mm cannon! point again sculpt 125?

[silver_roman]

reading all this, I recall a conversation with one of our "marshals" VO, who always firmly believed in "plans" for the purchase and deployment of equipment in the troops. This applies not only to Armata, but also to the T-50, and new engines, ships, etc.
We talked with him on this subject many times. As it turned out, he was wrong))). and in such a situation I really do not want to be right, but damn it, so it was all obvious. Sorry...

[Boris55]

Quote: R. Skomorokhov, A. Staver

No money, “Armat” will not?

And who is sitting on the budget cut? That's right - Medvedev.

- increase in gas prices
- VAT 20%
- raising the retirement age
- allocation of money for the construction of the Yeltsin Center.
- no allocation of money to Armat ...
What else would he come up with to cheer up the people?

[Vadim237]

Allocation of money for the modernization of Sakhalin infrastructure, the construction of a bridge to Sakhalin, as well as 800 kilometers of railways.

[Black sniper]

Uralvagonzavod has an order from MO for 100pcs of T-14 Armata, and for 2020 it’s 250pcs, so don’t cry.

[Vadim237]

Let them cry - it’s good for them.

[yehat]

But what are you fixated on the armatures? You need to look comprehensively.
And in the complex - curtailing work on the PAK DA, severely cutting back on the PAK FA program, strongly cutting down programs based on Armat platforms, cutting down a number of teams in Almaz-Antey, and so on - cutting down everywhere. Modernization programs for old tanks are also being cut.
In aviation, there is another problem - stupidly there are no modern missiles in warehouses. What really is - everything is already very outdated.

On Sakhalin, half a million people and billions of dollars of investment with vague prospects, and in regions where the population is 4-5 million, there is no investment at all.
when everything is described, it starts to look different.

[Vadim237]

From the beginning, take an interest in how much and what they built in the regions over these months - and then write about “no investments”.

[yehat]

otherwise I don’t know. He worked for 10 years in a construction holding. You do not confuse repair and replacement work with real investment. In St. Petersburg, they can’t expand the Murmansk highway to 4 lanes for more than 10 years, they have successfully mastered the allocated budget 2 times.
and do not confuse stadiums for the World Cup with investments.

[Vadim237]

But I’m not talking about road repair and building houses, but about factory enterprises, workshops and everything else that was done throughout Russia and how are stadiums and other things for the World Cup not an investment in urban improvement?

[BAI]

The decisive word, as always, lies with the accountant.

[Radical]

Apparently, they have uninhabited towers, unlike our tank troops - a commonplace phenomenon.

Or maybe they have "uninhabited" heads? In terms of the presence of gray matter?

[lucul]

Quote: yehat

And near Kursk, the number of our aircraft did not prevent the Germans from gaining dominance in the sky, although it was like there were yaks, shops, and experience was gained.

What nonsense. After losing the Kuban air battle (Me.109 against La5) in the spring of 1943, the Kursk Bulge (summer 1943), the Germans prepared their latest aircraft - FW-190, which perfectly proved themselves against the allies (Spitfayer, etc.). But on the Kursk Bulge FW-190 was a deafening failure - the losses of the fokers in the sky above the Kursk Bulk exceeded even the losses of the Messers in the Kuban air battle.

[yehat]

it's you raving. look at least the general statistics - the number of sorties, losses, eyewitness reviews. Even senior officers spoke out in this regard.
A real turning point in aviation came only by the year 44.
But you can continue to quote agitation that everything was just super.
As for the FW-190, look at least what modifications were used.
The main fighter was bf-109

[lucul]

Quote: Silvestr

and how they walked in the parade, and how happy we were!
All in vain ...

Yes, who knows. Maybe our elite knows what we don’t know?
Maybe there is accurate information that Trump will go against the Rockefellers and Co., like John Kennedy. And the United States expects its own perestroika (will we make America great again, but without Jewish rule?).
Then in this case, our latest designs become completely unnecessary. The next serious opponent after the United States is only China. But it seems we have peace / friendship / chewing gum with them.
Who knows how things really are.

[Vadim237]

Or maybe there’s simply nothing for yourself and others to hammer your head with any nonsense, the article is like this - crap of one day.

[businessv]

Quote: lucul

And the United States expects its own perestroika (will we make America great again, but without Jewish rule?).

A colleague, who is Trump by nationality?

[Photon]

If only Armata :-(, the SU-57 is not needed, there is no money, the Storm is not needed, there is no money, the Leader is not needed, there is no money. There is no money for pensioners. Energy is not needed, Buran is not needed. We’ll stop Proton production. I’m coming to my institute, I see that the institute has ended, I come to a similar institute, I see the same thing. I learn about tenders in the housing and communal services - there are no letters for words!
We are an energy superpower! We sell oil and gas! We sell thousands of hectares of forest! We sell metals!
After the war, the Soviet Union did not sell either oil or gas. The Soviet Union was the first to cancel the card system. The Soviet Union achieved parity with the United States. The Soviet Union was the first to go into space.
Where did the Soviet Union take money after the war? And where does the money of the Russian Federation go?

[tank66]

Well, a little bit here:

This is 9 pcs at the party. about 3 green watermelons ... about 70 Armat.
take a closer look. they even have air defense.

[yehat]

Eclipse (second) I saw close. The entire crew is British, a large part are sailors and former marines. By the way, we watched along with the departed Pachinka.
aboard a short-range air defense system, a submarine, several boats, a helicopter.

[sib.ataman]

Well you guys got excited (Roma with Sanya)! You can understand. Is it a shame for the power? But in addition to the latest tanks and aircraft, there is also a huge country, well, just very huge, which is still in ruins, as after the war. And on our borders there are no roaring enemy tank divisions, and the geyrops are not willing to fight strongly with the Russian Federation. For mattresses, SNF has been prepared in abundance (and the latest ones are on the way). And for the Ishilovites, Nusrovtsy and other zaats, tank armada are not required at the moment. And the question is, you guys, what will you choose from the money that remains after all the thefts (no matter how much Deripaskam and Co. ° are pulled and stuffed, the money will still remain!): Build a tank and aviation and naval armada, but put off all peace plans; or don’t rush to invest in armada-armata, but try to pour more money into peace projects? Going to bed with full confidence that the enemy will not pass, but with a stomach growling from hunger, or tired of peaceful, constructive work, not on an empty stomach, with complete confidence, the stronger the rear, the more reliable our defense? .. And I am sometimes at a loss ! But you have to choose! And an hour a teaspoon nobody likes!

[lukewarm]

Quote: sib.ataman

that the enemy will not pass, but with a stomach growling from hunger,

To understand - you have to try. Kremlin elders
The 80s tried in 1941 and were convinced that it was better alive with a grumbling stomach than full, but dead. True, then. Now they are fighting in a different way, and the elite is far from Stalin's commissars. But it would be nice for some ministers to crunch bones not in the fitness center but during interrogation.

[AleBors]

Duc it is understandable. A modern tank is not a villa or a yacht with a bl .. with photo models. Some expenses and no pleasure. Therefore, the power oligarchy pinches money for this.
So that military spending will be reduced and the people, so as not to arise, will be entertained with all sorts of spectacles such as "uniforms" and other rubbish with beer and women.
But not like the neighbors ....

[Vadim237]

The oligarchy does not manage the budget, they only manage their assets and property, bank accounts.

[businessv]

Quote: Vadim237

The oligarchy does not manage the budget, they only manage their assets and property, bank accounts.

Of course, colleague, they personally do not manage the state budget, for that they are the oligarchs, so that specially trained (often for their own money) people whom they, the oligarchs, put in the most "fishy" profitable places, did it for them! But these people are called officials, sometimes ministers, and sometimes even deputies, their mother is happy!

[AleBors]

Really? Do you really think so? And do their children and relatives just sit in power structures?

[Vadim237]

This is the best place to push the interests of business - that place does not take.

[AleBors]

Shocked by the power of your intellect ...

[Vadim237]

They cannot manage the budget, at their individual discretion, but accept it with a general vote - mostly budget money, they are tying the guys on the ground and these are not oligarchs.

[Bad thing]

It is true that the oligarchs snatched their own in the 90s, now officials are digging, and so on. how the oligarchs did not dream.

[yehat]

Yes? take the construction of the Olympics in Sochi - the issuance of facilities for the construction of 2/3 of the budget left kickbacks in Moscow. This I clarify where the guys are on the ground. Sochi was built by sub-sub contractors at 1/10 of the allocated money, and then the construction was initially frozen, because money went first into circulation - often it was not enough for construction.
So do not flood about the locals.

[AleBors]

I agree. In 2009-2012 I visited these construction sites, I saw, I heard ...
And our opponent is either naive or not far ... Alas ...

[Vadim237]

And there is evidence that 2/3 in Moscow remained kickbacks - they spent 1,5 trillion on the entire Olympiad, and only 230 of them were budget money.

[yehat]

I’m not an investigative committee - I just conveyed what eyewitnesses and real contractors said.

[Vadim237]

And then we are surprised and where did the money disappear here - these eyewitnesses had to go to the prosecutor’s office right away, and not mumble among themselves - they were afraid and so on.

[Essex62]

Quote: sib.ataman

Well you guys got excited (Roma with Sanya)! You can understand. Is it a shame for the power? But in addition to the latest tanks and aircraft, there is also a huge country, well, just very huge, which is still in ruins, as after the war. And on our borders there are no roaring enemy tank divisions, and the geyrops are not willing to fight strongly with the Russian Federation. For mattresses, SNF has been prepared in abundance (and the latest ones are on the way). And for the Ishilovites, Nusrovtsy and other zaats, tank armada are not required at the moment. And the question is, you guys, what will you choose from the money that remains after all the thefts (no matter how much Deripaskam and Co. ° are pulled and stuffed, the money will still remain!): Build a tank and aviation and naval armada, but put off all peace plans; or don’t rush to invest in armada-armata, but try to pour more money into peace projects? Going to bed with full confidence that the enemy will not pass, but with a stomach growling from hunger, or tired of peaceful, constructive work, not on an empty stomach, with complete confidence, the stronger the rear, the more reliable our defense? .. And I am sometimes at a loss ! But you have to choose! And an hour a teaspoon nobody likes!

What are peace plans? Another mundial on the bones of elderly citizens of Russia? In FIG not the necessary bridge to Sakhalin, support snickering aligarhat? The point is not even the lack of money. If desired, the autocrat of his friends would be dispossessed of any project. Although at 3000 Armat. Only, firstly, there are not enough personnel to build these thousands, and secondly, against whom and why to build. They have long been part of the Masonic world, they do not intend to protect the people of Russia. Judging by the latest decisions, they want to strangle them as soon as possible.

[yehat]

Quote: Golovan Jack

pct

no, we conducted experiments in Afghanistan of different, let's say, devices for picking out infantry from the terrain
Of the pure ones (not poisoning the territory), the most effective ones were not rifle, but based on a sharp change in pressure (volume explosions, for example), wave emitters (low-frequency directional sound, electromagnetic stray). The effect of cardiac arrest, asphyxia, or inspired indisputable horror to severe concussion, total damage to organs like bursting eyes. It looks creepy.

[yehat]

modern terminator is seeds
it is possible to make such an anti-personnel pepelats that the infantry will drape only assuming that this thing will appear soon. Many things have already been invented.

[Vadim237]

An assault robotic tank with a 203 mm automatic cannon, with six robot platforms attached to it - 12.7 machine guns with integrated RPG and RPO gun mounts - for urban battles, one carries out fortifications and equipment, and the second destroy militants firing points of RPGs, snipers, while simultaneously escorting and covering the tank, carrying out reconnaissance.

[yehat]

It is fantastic.

[Vadim237]

It will be the most powerful, coolest tank, the shell of which, with a mass of 120 kilograms, even in the form of a blank, will have a kinetic energy of 194 MJ, which is comparable to 49 kilograms of TNT. If you hit a tank, heavy BMP or armored personnel carrier, you don’t need a second shot, the tower will be torn off, and all the rest of the armored vehicles will shatter, at least put some kind of dynamic defense and KAZ on them. He will have a recognition system for his alien four-track chassis like the Object 277, which will provide excellent cross-country ability, all-round visibility systems with data transfer between robotic tracking machine guns, search for optical systems, IR sighting devices, as well as a communication channel with drones. The case will consist of a skeleton on which the engine with transmission, a gun and sectional mounted armor with dynamic protection will be modularly mounted, which will allow changing damaged elements in the field, dynamic protection - in the form of knockout mounted armor plates, against cumulative it works as a passive system protection, and against BOPS as active. And it will not be necessary to risk the lives of tankers and infantry, such tanks will be able to carry the most fortified urban areas, military bases, bunkers, roadblocks.

[yehat]

technically what you described can be done
the problem is different - the logistic fiction you describe is fantastic.

[Vadim237]

This is what we are going for, the army needs unmanned combat vehicles.

[yehat]

yes what unmanned vehicles? We have big problems with regular field communications. Problems with a network of repeaters, problems with GLONASS satellites. And while this does not happen, there’s no point in talking about any unmanned junk. Work must be carried out sequentially.
In the USSR, in the 80s, it was planned to transfer part of the bomber aircraft to unmanned control, and even experimental samples were ready and tests were in progress, but the USSR had well-established global communications, a large group of satellites and an industry that would quickly put into operation , what is missing. And now the conditions are much worse.

[Vadim237]

Nor are there any communication problems and the GLONASS 24 satellites are working normally.

[yehat]

24 work? really?

[Bad thing]

Quote: Vadim237

This will be the most powerful, coolest tank, the shell of which with a mass of 120 kilograms, even in the form of a blank ....

It looks like they spent the Internet in a madhouse.

[Vadim237]

All 24 work - at least the Moscow Region does not complain about satellite navigation.

[Vadim237]

No one cancels anything - calm down.

[Graz]

it’s clear that it’s cheaper to modernize the old things, but this is not an option, you can lose the technology and culture of production of modern technology, and when the roasted rooster pecks in the ass then they catch it and the zashniks are empty

[Vadim237]

“Lose the technology” - Will it be eaten by you?

[Bad thing]

No, they won’t eat it up, enterprises or individual manufactures simply lose it, go bankrupt and disappear, there are some examples of equipment that cannot be restored now, since the production of components was profaned in the 90s, especially with regard to lamp electronics. And there are also enterprises where the production base, documentation has been preserved, and there is no one to work, specialists have died out or already at a disabled age, and there is no one to replace them, because specialized vocational schools (or technical schools) have been gone for 20 years,.

[Vadim237]

And what kind of samples of equipment that are now impossible to restore - more. Enterprises are now introducing retraining courses more and more.

[yehat]

today's Russia in the next 20 years is not able to repeat Buran, even if there is money in the budget. The technological base and hundreds of unique specialists in narrow topics have been lost. This is an example of the state of industry. Just like the Americans, in the next 2 years they will definitely not be able to repeat the Apollo program - they also lost a lot of things. But compare the estimated dates.

[Vadim237]

But he really needs this Buran - no, now we need single-stage aerospace aircraft - he took off and returned.

[yehat]

I am talking about the state of industry and its possibilities for production.
Of course, there is no point in making devices 30 years ago, but we don’t have such an opportunity.

[Vadim237]

It is possible to produce fully and the equipment is appropriate - there are simply no such projects and they are in no hurry to allocate money for them.

[yehat]

look at Ukraine, how they lose the ability to produce tanks. And how they lost the base for aviation production. There is nowhere more visible.

[Bad thing]

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

But 85-mm anti-aircraft guns, body 122-mm guns and 152-mm howitzer guns were very few.

Not their task with tanks on direct fire to fight. 152 mm in those days it is mainly the RVGK brigade. 122 mm case.

[yehat]

near Kursk, 85mm anti-aircraft guns (and part of the captured 88mm anti-aircraft guns) were used exclusively as a direct-fire anti-aircraft gun. shooting on airplanes was prohibited.
reason - there were not enough supplies of guns ZIS-2 and ZIS-3.

[Bad thing]

Quote: yehat

shooting on airplanes was prohibited.

Fiction, Junkers or Heinkel with bombs is less dangerous than Tiger or Panther?
Another thing is that there were cases of using anti-aircraft units as anti-aircraft missile defense in the event of a breakthrough in defense. But no one took off the task of covering them from air strikes.

[yehat]

I can’t recall the official order from memory, but it was. and it can be found in the archive.

[Graz]

100 pieces a year would be produced already it would be nice, I don’t think that for these 100 pieces they can’t find $ 500 in ruble terms

[NordUral]

There are no words besides the mat! And not only on these, but on ourselves! How could you vote for them, tell me? No pensions, no equipment for the army, no new industrialization. Only cut, theft and the digital economy from Alice and Cat Basilio for the burdock people.
And we were proudly looking for the first satellite in the sky, did Yuri Gagarin return with joyful impatience?
Already I can’t believe that it was us. It's a shame and a shame for yourself and the country!

[Bind]

New reason for jumping?
You are not tired? To escalate the situation?

[APASUS]

Where are the spies, where are the traitors, so here they are! They sit in high headquarters, in easy chairs and bring down the latest developments - so who are they? There is money for bridges, olympiads, rallies and summits, but there is no defense!
I am not an admirer of Stalin, but here you remember in captivity!

[Vadim237]

You sometimes turn your head on - and disconnect from blank articles.

[yehat]

There are many myths about Stalin. I study a lot of history of the period 1900-1950gg
and many things change. Most of Stalin’s decisions are really the most effective choice of all possible on that moment. Study and this understanding will come.
Moreover, he had personal failures in decisions more than once, but most of them were just little known. For example, Stalin was very sorry that he gave way to the Stakhanov movement - it was a serious mistake, with the consequences of which he then struggled for a long time. The impotence of the USSR before the Munich conspiracy is another consequence of Stalin's mistake.

[Vadim237]

His most catastrophic mistake was “Collectivization” after such a development of the village and there was no question, the young fled from non-rural collective farms, to socialist construction sites and to the army, under Khrushchev, the peasants were given passports, pensions, but the dump of the population from the villages accelerated.

[yehat]

utter nonsense - the whole world went over to collective farms, otherwise it was simply impossible to use mechanization. The mistakes were in the specific features of the creation of collective farms, but not in a general solution, and this was no longer done by Stalin and Lenin, but by local activists.
As for rural politics, I want to remind you that local authorities were engaged in this and 90% of the problems arose because of them. Take at least your beloved good Khrushchev. The peasants received from him not only passports, but also 2 mass starvations, and mass executions (tens of thousands) It was he and his comrades who organized a terrible form of collectivization in Ukraine, and then blamed Stalin for this.
And when he was transferred to Moscow, it was he who introduced a number of hellish rules in the countryside, which is why literally everyone was taken from people in central Russia from their personal households, but you are not blaming Khrushchev, but Stalin.
I repeat - you have studied very little history and repeat stamp after stamp

[Vadim237]

I don’t need stamps, I have living eyewitnesses of those years, grandfather is already 100, grandmother is 102 years old, stepbrother 98 - lucky with centenarians, grandfather lost the sex of the family they dispossessed in the 30th, in the second category, and his father’s stepbrother in general in the first the categories were shot, he had only three cows and two horses. Khrushchev, compared with the guys who went through the villages from 28 to 37 years old - a small and fluffy kitten, Stalin knew everything - because such methods, his sought after profession, focusing on the rest, 10 million collectivized ones - destroyed families and ruined lives - all this was conceived for industrialization, it was not worth it. According to his stories, the way it was

[Strategia]

The letter "O" - this means that the sample meets the tactical and technical requirements that were determined at the initial stage of the organization, not even R&D, but R&D. In turn, TTTs are developed on the basis of a forecast of the nature of future wars, especially in terms of the weapons and military equipment used. So it turns out, TTT are developed on the principle of three "P"? What kind of specialists do the ministry of defense work in (in the GUV MO, VNK VS)? And who appoints them there? Or did the personnel pit rise to the upper echelons of military command?

[lucul]

Quote: yehat

A real turning point in aviation came only by the year 44.

I am embarrassed to ask, and as a result of which, according to your (according to your kosher training manual) fracture occurred?

Quote: yehat

But you can continue to quote agitation that everything was just super.

In 1944, and especially in 1945, everything was super, compared to the Germans. Want to challenge?

[yehat]

can you stop talking in the style of cattle? I do not want to answer such an abomination.

[Vladimir Avakimov]

Why live? You’ll die anyway.

[YES]

"You can't spread a rocket on bread." Cool saying, just in time. Now it seems to me that the situation in the country is such that it is more correct to pose the question: "not what to fight, but for whom?" Miracle patriots at a critical moment will scatter their burrows, and the people, as in the Second World War, will have a mixed opinion, and if there is a great goal, now there is no goal, where it is not clear where to fight, cartoons rule, and hatred-inspiring moods are supported by propaganda. ? why should we spend money on real iron, it’s easier to remove a cartoon in which to write “super tank” on a tractor, etc.

[Vadim237]

Everything that was shown in the "cartoons" is already in hardware and is being tested. No one canceled the Armat platform.

[NordOst16]

Yes, judging by the comments of the powerful Russian army, Armata is not needed, not Su57, I'm not talking about other areas.
Maybe I'm terribly biased, but after such words it becomes insulting, I want to call them simply, but you can’t (((They say something about patriotism, they pump up cartoons and promises, but in the end, nothing

[businessv]

And this heresy is broadcast by high-ranking officials of the country ... Apparently, they have uninhabited towers, unlike our armored troops - a common occurrence.

Bravo, gentlemen! The authors harness not childishly! Finally, a sober and bold assessment of the actions of our bureaucrats appeared! In our Crimea (in Sevastopol) the bureaucrats for 4 years have become 3 times more than they were in Ukraine, not by the night be said! But we were hoping that they would take it right now, as they would disperse all the burials! And it’s like, it happened awkwardly! Moreover, instead of a ban on the withdrawal of capital from the country, they are sponsoring state funds to the oligarchy, which withdraws these same capital! Maybe the state sponsors and this oligarchy have common accounts, so why such a mess (from our point of view, of course)? And now how to get rid of them all ?! They really have towers ... uninhabited!

[gromoboj]

Destroying 2 tank plants (Leningrad and Omsk) received a monopolist. It will not be cheap. Well maybe too. Nothing personal just business.

[yehat]

How else? our economy is already poorly diversified. Even if there is a different plant, its suppliers will be the same and the tank will be very similar. The situation with plants simply repeats the general situation.

[NordOst16]

Vadim237,
Ну и на что у нас работает машиностроение? ВПК, Роскосмос, Росатом. Может нефтянка, ну и всё. Как-то мало, самое выгодное - втюхивать всякую хрень народу, чтобы он покупал ибо это на много выгоднее и деньги будут на что-то по настоящему интересное.

[Vadim237]

Вот один из образцов нашего медицинского приборостроения

[yehat]

по-моему выглядит армата уродливо. т80 куда красивее.

[wicked pinnochio]

на не проше сделать продавать танки т 72 всяким арабам и неграм а на вырученные деньги оснащять войска танками т 90ам ну и пару армат купить как командирские

[Normal ok]

Конечно же, Борисов не мог не сказать, что состоящий на вооружении Т-72 намного привлекательнее для военных и в техническом, и в финансовом отношении. ...
And "Armata" look good on the parade. Here are a dozen of them - and pretty. Expensive.

Это мне одному напоминает историю с "Оплотами"? Собрали в 00-х десяток для парада. И всё. А теперь основной упор на модернизацию шестьдесятчетвёрок.

[yehat]

64-м не самый плохой выбор.
но НАТО уже 30 лет приспосабливается бороться с танками поколений т62, т64, т72, т80
и не безрезультатно. Пора что-то новое создавать.

[as-buki-vedi]

Ну и кого вы слушаете ? Вот через таких писак льют негатив ! Пытаются навязать гонку вооружений , надо будет и запустят а пока отрабатывают , танков у нас хватит ,,на всех,,а технологии отрабатываются и обкатываются-на всякий случай . Всепропальщики едрит мадрид !

[Vadmir]

В современном мире события развиваются так стремительно, а современная техника так сложна и так долго изготавливается, что если этот ваш "всякий случай" произойдет, то можно уже и не спешить - все равно шансов успеть не будет.

[ZVO]

Vadim237,

Quote: Vadim237

Tell the Navy, to the designers of the Poseidons, the Harpsichords, the Tsifalopods and other unmanned underwater vehicles.

Есть хоть один из названных вами "персонажей" - реализованный в металле и поставленный на вооружение? - нет.
И Клавесин - тоже макет.

[Vadim237]

Странный макет однако - не находите, или вы один из картонных войс Украины.

[ARES623]

"Стоит напомнить, что потребность в «Армате» сперва была оценена в 2 300 единиц. Потом Минобороны заявило о строительстве 1 000 машин «на первое время». Далее пошло «бла-бла-бла», и количество сократили до пробной партии в 100 машин."
Вам, господин журналист, видимо, не угодить ничем. То Вы праведным гневом в почти десятке статей поливаете бездумное правительство за недостаток денег в ПФР. Теперь требуете 2300 Армат в войска поставить. "Баба-Яга" всегда против? ".....– Что касается «Армат», то пока так называемого полкового комплекта для тренировки экипажей и обкатки самой машины вполне достаточно, - добавляет Леонков." Чего тут странного? Машину и ее эксплуатацию надо "доводить" до ума. И правильно делают. "Детские болезни" техники надо лечить на малых опытных партиях, а не отзывом из эксплуатации серий в тысячи машин. Сегодня в противостоянии с Западом нам больше нужен кулак СЯС, техника сухопутных сил, в этом противостоянии, все же на втором плане. Вы, как хреновый генерал, готовитесь к прошедшим войнам. А ведь война будет другая. Хотя почему "будет"? Она уже идет, и идет не по тому сценарию, в котором нужны тысячи Армат. А Вы слепо мечете ведро помоев в сторону правительства по каждому их вздоху. Вот либеральная экономика государства Вас , видимо, устраивает. Экспорт сырья первого передела, аховое состояние средств переработки и хранения выращенного продовольствия, что реально могло бы повысить добавленную стоимость произведенного продукта, у Вас критики не находит. А зря.

[tank64rus]

"Что можно выкинуть из боевой машины, чтобы она стала дешевле? Что там ненужного? И что за «специалисты» будут это решать?" Выкинуть этих " специалистов" и заодно обожравшихся чинуш и ворюг из власти.

[Phoenix]

Так о чём статья? Понос какой-то словесный.

[Newone]

Не статья, а сборник бреда.
1) Уже оформлен заказ на 100 штук Армат. Для сравнения в Бундесвере 255 танков.
2) Стоимость танка Армата "чуть более 250 000 000 руб." Стоимость модернизации Т-72 100000$(6 700 000 руб.) Т.е. на стоимость одной Арматы можно модернизировать 37 Т-72. Даже если модернизация увеличивает боеспособность танка на 10%, за стоимость Арматы мы получим эквивалент 4 танков Т-72, которые исходя из опыта ВоВ все ж таки посильнее одной Арматы будут.
3) Сейчас в стране далеко не военно-мобилизационная промышленность. И к выпуску в ближайшие годы тысяч новых танков промышленность очевидно не готова. Поэтому в ближайшие годы тысяч армат у нас, как ни крути не будет, даже если деньги выделить. А вот тысячи Т-72М3 - могут быть. И вместо того чтобы воевать двумя сотнями армат(которых впервую очередь противник и будет выбивать далеко не прямым танковыми столкновениями) и тысячами немодернизированных Т-72, наша армия сможет воевать одной сотней армат и тысячами модернизированных Т-72МЗ, что, безусловно, сохранит гораздо больше жизней танкистов(просто потому что основным танком армии будет более защищенный модернезированный Т-72М3)
4) Танк Армата только поступил в войска и очевидно требует выявления и исправления допущенных огрехов при проектировании, которые есть у абсолютно любого сложного изделия. первая партия в 100 шт. достаточно велика чтобы:
а) обучить войска на Армату;
б) выявить недостатки.
Выявленные недостатки гораздо дешевле исправить на относительно небольшой партии танков, чем на тысячах.

[NF68]

Напоминает сразу 1941 год, когда 57-мм противотанковые пушки перестали выпускать, потому как для них целей не было. А потом товарищи в кабинете у Сталина стояли, пачкали парадные штаны и блеяли, когда выяснилось, что «Тигры» бить, в общем-то, нечем.

Цели как раз были. Иначе в РККА в это время не передавали бы из частей ПВО в противотанковые подразделения 76,2 мм. и 85 мм. зенитные пушки хотя в РККА в это же время было слишком мало таких средств ПВО.По видимому тогда борьбу с немецкими танками по считали более важной чем борьбу с авиацией немцев. Производство в 1941 году 57 мм. пушек ВЫНУЖДЕНЫ были прекратить из за сложности производства длинного ствола по скольку на имеющемся в то время в СССР оборудование доля бракованных стволов, по данным из некоторых источников, доходила до 80 % и потери противотанковых пушек были слишком большими. В итоге в 1942 году в СССР стали выпускать 76,2 мм. дивизионную пушку Зис-3 так как производство сравнительно короткого ствола этой пушки было значительно проще чем ствола к 57 мм. пушке, а уничтожать немецкие танки имевшиеся на вооружение Вермахта эта пушка могла хотя и во многом уступала 57 мм.