Military Review

Heavy machine guns. The crisis of the genre or a second wind?

147
Heavy machine guns. The crisis of the genre or a second wind?



The experience of the military operations of the last decades, starting with the Afghan war, has shown the need to arm motorized rifle subunits with heavy machine guns already at the company level, and even better at the platoon level.

Today we are in about the same conditions as the Soviet Army in Afghanistan, no matter how strange it may sound. Accordingly, for a real increase in the firepower of the unit in modern conditions, real machine guns are needed, and not LMG class ratchets.



It is clear that such "wastefulness" does not please our guardians of the sovereign treasury. Machine gun - weapon expensive A modern machine gun especially. And large-caliber is generally ... Production itself is expensive. Expensive ammunition. Very expensive sights and other devices for high-quality aiming.

So what to do? Where to run?



Officially, the reluctance to arm the company commander with heavy machine guns motivates not so much the cost as care for the soldier. The machine gun and machine are heavy enough. For the qualitative use of such weapons requires the calculation of a person's 3-4. And, accordingly, taking into account the armament of modern armies with automatic cannons, such a numerous calculation can be quickly destroyed. In the presence of guns.

Large seen in the distance. Therefore, we will try to return to 30-40 years ago. To Afghanistan. Today it is already possible to draw any conclusions on those events.

Those of the readers who got "behind the river" in the first years of the war, remember the machine-gun nests of the "spirits" on the mountain passes. A gang of 15-20 people, armed with Chinese DShKM, "kept" the company without any problems. Our large-caliber machine guns on the BTR were often simply useless. Machines could not reach positions suitable for accurate shooting.



It was then that the ability of the airborne assault battalions to solve problems that the motorized rifle regiments could not solve. Why? Why did the spetsnaz group calmly "shoot" machine-gunners from the position? Did the DSB successfully solve the assigned combat mission?

The whole thing is not so much in a more thorough selection of fighters in these units, as in weapons. Remember the means of fire support from the infantry commander? BTR or BMP and ... AGS-17. A good 30-mm automatic grenade launcher, but in real combat is often the only weapon of fire support.

And what was at the disposal of the winged infantry battalion commander? Yes the same. But with the addition of 82-mm mortars. Therefore, the paratroop battalions were thrown to the rescue of motorized riflemen. Well-prepared calculations mortar "dumped" machine gun calculations dushman rather effectively.



And from the ATP (rock machine-gun structure), from mountain pillboxes, from crevices, from thickets.

But the battalion commander DSHB was "king". In his battalion, in addition to all of the above, there was also a "Utes" in service. The same 12,7-mm heavy machine gun of Nikitin-Sokolov-Volkov (NSVS). It was “Cliff” that did an excellent job with Afghans' AJCF. First of all, due to the presence of the optical sight.



Although, frankly, it is still not clear to me why optics with a range of 500 meters relied on such a machine gun.

Those who "rolled over the bridge of friendship" later will not agree with the author. In the rifle divisions, too, were the "cliffs". There were, but I knowingly indicated the time frame of the war. And those "Cliffs" that appeared later, taking into account the experience of hostilities, like other heavy weapons, were often generally "out of state." And they were only in units and subunits of the 40 Army and Special Forces.

The work of calculating the NWS against the AUSM is perfectly illustrated by the example of the actions of a special forces group. The head patrol noticed a prepared ambush of spirits. The basis of the position, of course, was the machine-gun nest with DShKM.

Go to the forehead in such a situation, suicide. As an attempt to remove the calculation of the SVD or machines. The effectiveness of such shooting in the highlands is none. And the stream, of which there was darkness, in the heat plays the role of "madness for bullets."

That's when the “Cliff” calculation comes to the fore. A weak optical sight still gives a serious advantage to Soviet soldiers. The duel begins. Only in the cinema the defeat takes place with the very first shots. In fact, shooting is carried out with zero effect. But gradually both machine-gunners "find" the position of the enemy.

And here "plays" the advantage of the "Cliff". Two fighters can quickly change position. "Lost" for the enemy. Despite the decent weight of the NSV kit (42,7 kg), this is by no means a comparison with the NShKM. Such an operation with DShKM in the mountains is very problematic. Only the "body" of the machine gun weighs about 35 kg! And the launcher machine even more.



The Soviet DShK on a wheeled machine weighed under 150 kg. "Perfume" used the Chinese "Type 54", which the efforts of Chinese engineers became easier on 70 kg! And yet…



To leave the position machine gunners DSHK can not, at least quickly.

The usual alignment: while the duel of machine gunners lasted, the rest of the fighters of the group, using the "dead zones", were selected for an ambush and destroyed the Mujahideen. By the way, the “dead zones” of the AESC were not so many, but the highlands are highlands.

Some ATP (rocky machine-gun construction) had walls up to a meter in the base and a diameter of at least 2-2,5 meters. Artillery helped to pick out machine gunners from such an ATP, and aviation. And "Bumblebee", then still an exotic weapon, came in handy.

So, the effectiveness of "Cliff" was evaluated quickly. But there was one major limitation for his work. Ammunition. After all, a box and fifty cartridges for a machine gun weigh more than 11 kg.

And the trouble of all machine guns, powerful recoil, which knocks down the sight, in a large caliber is particularly pronounced. Because the calculations began to shoot "economically." Single or two rounds. Oddly enough, such shooting increased the effectiveness of weapons.

Large caliber is used in flat terrain. Now another one has been added to the enemy's fire point suppression functions. A decent large-caliber firing range has turned such a weapon into anti-sniper too.



Mass sniper rifles, rarely have a long range. The sighting range of machine guns from 2000 to 3000 meters. Moreover, shelters do not save from such weapons. A sniper can rarely afford brick or concrete walls. In the field or forest, he uses shelters rather to disguise.

Returning to the need for the appearance of large-caliber machine guns in companies, it is necessary to name the advantages of this weapon over other means of fire support.

First of all, such machine guns "react to danger" much faster than all other means. Grenade launchers, mortars and other weapons do not have this quality. The reason is commonplace. The initial speed of the ammunition. The initial speed of a machine gun bullet is greater than 800 m / s. Thus, for example, destroying an enemy at a distance of 600 meters will take a 4-5 fighter’s seconds. Grenades and mines will "get to the target" from 12 to 18 seconds.

Long range shooting. A sighting range of several kilometers provides tremendous advantages for combating not only snipers, but also calculations of grenade launchers, mortars, anti-tank weapons and even artillery pieces advanced to the front.

A heavy machine gun can disable easily armored vehicles and vehicles at a decent distance. What is especially relevant today in connection with the use of light armored personnel carriers and the Humve in most armies in the world.

By the way, around the world, BMPs and armored personnel carriers “became heavier” precisely when we used KPVT machine guns on our armored personnel carriers. But CPT is a separate история.

And finally, it is necessary to use the experience of the enemy. It is a machine gun of large caliber should be the basis of the defense unit. The BTR and the BMP do not have such a quick "reaction" to changing situations. Their job is to work on bunkers, armored targets and helicopters.

It so happened that the article describes more of the use of "Cliff". More perfect "Cord" on application does not differ. And in terms of overall mass and docking characteristics, the Kord is similar to the NSVS-12,7 machine gun. True, Kord is a record holder. The world's first heavy machine gun, which works on a bipod. And even with hands.



The imbalance in the direction of grenade launchers and light handheld under-guns, which arose during the Soviet era, must be urgently eliminated. Especially since our heavy machine guns are really good.
Author:
147 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. ICT
    ICT April 6 2018 05: 57
    +7
    Well, on technology or on a checkpoint, this is understandable, but in the ranks it can still stop on rifles of the same caliber with better optics
    1. Vard
      Vard April 6 2018 06: 18
      +10
      The author is overly categorical ... Nevertheless, if you go over the terrain ... There is a difference in weight for the groats and the infantry caliber ... And the first case you just can not convey ...
      1. tchoni
        tchoni April 6 2018 07: 56
        +19
        Quote: Vard
        The author is overly categorical ... Nevertheless, if you go over the terrain ... There is a difference in weight for the groats and the infantry caliber ... And the first case you just can not convey ...

        The authors examine the problem through a very narrow prism of "adapting linear infantry units to the conditions of mountain warfare in the conditions of time deficit" (yes, I know, taftology). For example, in the same Syria, krupnyak quite rides on armored personnel carriers or "toyotakampfvagenah". In the conditions of the city, a grenade launcher is preferable due to the small distance of the fire, less weight and dimensions, greater power of the warhead and greater maneuverability.
        The authors considered a very special case. and offered only one of the options for its solution. Ignoring the others completely.
        1. Now we are free
          Now we are free April 6 2018 09: 20
          +10
          "Cord" + "Balkans" at the platoon level; "Cord" + "Balkans" at the platoon level; "Cord" + "Balkans" at the platoon level; "Cord" + "Balkans" at the platoon level; "Cord" + "Balkans" at the platoon level ...
          I can repeat this mantra as much as I like, the question is different, when will it be realized? And do they implement ???

          P.S. And yes, “Cornflower” I hope they will not write off completely?
        2. Vladimir 5
          Vladimir 5 April 6 2018 10: 24
          +1
          A large rifle caliber is needed today from the squad and above. Previously, there was no large-caliber sniper, and therefore the machine gun was the only one. 12,7 mm and higher machine guns require a machine for aimed fire, but a self-loading sniper rifle for the same caliber is transportable and should be in each compartment together with a 7,62 or 9 mm caliber sniper and machine gun weapons.
        3. Yrec
          Yrec April 9 2018 10: 07
          0
          I agree. In which case, SMEs can be quickly saturated with amplification. This applies not only to the KK machine guns. Now the manning system for existing units is much more flexible, it is incorrect to compare with the time of entry into Afghanistan. Forty years have passed by now.
      2. avt
        avt April 6 2018 08: 22
        +16
        Quote: Vard
        The author is too categorical ...

        bully To put it mildly . What is at least a topic that he saddled and deepened
        That bias in the direction of grenade launchers and light hand-held submachine guns, which arose as far back as the Soviet era, needs to be urgently eliminated.
        bully Select all remaining ,, Flies "and ,, Bumblebees", and in return issue on ,, Corda " wassat That would be the authors of men from ,, Tibet "so armed and would, well, when they went to the" mountain of thieves "..... a lot of new things would be learned about themselves with vocabulary prohibited on the site bully
        The decent range of large caliber turned such weapons into anti-sniper ones.
        The most anti-sniper weapon is a mortar. Better than 120 mm, but 82 is also quite good.
        Quote: Denimax
        I thought, because the 82 mm mortar can be improved

        what So you can quite write an article that machine guns ..... shortages. bully
      3. Michael HORNET
        Michael HORNET April 9 2018 09: 50
        0
        A heavy machine gun on the machine is not the best solution for a platoon, who will carry it? Moreover, they themselves wrote - that really effective shooting is only single or double. So then, as a means of reinforcing the platoon - a rifle in this caliber. This actually goes. Amers have this. There is also a Russian folding - well, at least it is wearable for 2 people
        Machine gun place on transport
    2. tchoni
      tchoni April 6 2018 06: 21
      +2
      Quote: TIT
      Well, on technology or on a checkpoint, this is understandable, but in the ranks it can still stop on rifles of the same caliber with better optics

      Well, if we talk about prospects, then the idea of ​​a machine gun has been around for a long time under a certain intermediate cartridge of 9 mm caliber like paw magnum or something similar. But, if with different kinds of snipers “rearmament” took place, including, in some cases, at the expense of the shooters themselves, then this focus does not work with machine gunners, because there are really very few machine guns for an intermediate cartridge
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine April 6 2018 06: 45
        +2
        Quote: tchoni
        because the machine guns under the intermediate cartridge are really sooooo small

        As far as I know, not at all. Only prototypes.
        1. tchoni
          tchoni April 6 2018 07: 46
          0
          https://topwar.ru/16210-legkiy-sredniy-pulemet-ot
          -general-dynamics-pod-patron-338-norma-magnum.htm
          l Here is an article from the same site about 9 mm devices
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine April 6 2018 08: 28
            +3
            Exactly.
            At the moment, weapons at the stage of creation and testing of prototypes, the further fate, as well as the approximate cost, is not yet known.

            Article 6 years ago, but nothing has changed. This is still lwmmg, not M, or even XM.
            1. tchoni
              tchoni April 6 2018 08: 51
              0
              So I tell you about the same thing. With all the seemingly merits of such a machine gun in the army, he didn’t really take root. Although the experiments are ongoing.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine April 6 2018 09: 07
                +1
                Quote: tchoni
                With all the seemingly merits of such a machine gun in the army, he didn’t really take root

                He does not take root in them, first of all, because he does not enter the army at all (otherwise there would be XM). It’s easier for Americans to give out javelins.
                1. tchoni
                  tchoni April 6 2018 09: 32
                  0
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  It’s easier for Americans to give out javelins.

                  This is a matter of preference.
            2. Michael HORNET
              Michael HORNET April 9 2018 09: 51
              0
              The fact is, while 338 caliber for machine guns cannot cram into service. Although yes, it is very promising and correct
        2. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I April 6 2018 13: 37
          +2
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          As far as I know, not at all. Only prototypes.

          Do Americans seem to be going to arm themselves in the near future?
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine April 6 2018 17: 43
            0
            For Americans, I only know about the machine gun link tchoni
            I have not heard anything about its use anywhere except the shooting range. Already 6 years old.
            1. Nikolaevich I
              Nikolaevich I April 7 2018 00: 28
              +2
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              I have not heard anything about its use anywhere except the shooting range. Already 6 years old.

              Well yes .... this is an experienced LWMMG .... 6 years have passed. But due to the "warming" of relations between the United States and Russia, some US military offer to "return" to this machine gun.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine April 7 2018 03: 47
                +3
                Quote: Nikolaevich I
                US military offers to "return" to this machine gun.

                The American military snouted a million and a half, there every day someone offers something. Rifleman improvement companies go almost non-stop: Advanced Combat Rifle, OICW and more. However, when it comes to real affairs, we don’t see anything like this, but we see M2 a hundred years ago, M16 60-year-old, or even something absolutely crazy, like a new bolt-on bolt of marines for .300 WinMag caliber. That is, on the one hand, the cartridge is already non-standard, on the other hand, this is not Lapua, which any healthy person would take.
                The future of the machine under discussion will appear if she is interested in one of the largest PMCs (so large that they can pull up completely new weapons and ammunition), or serious, but relatively independent state operators (SOKOM, AOI, etc.). I haven’t heard anything like this yet.
                1. voyaka uh
                  voyaka uh April 7 2018 08: 43
                  +2
                  "M2 a hundred years ago, M16 60-year-old" ////

                  It’s not a weapon that is being changed - that of Browning 0.5, that of M-16 the ballistics are good. Change body kits on weapons. To help a weak human eye. With 3-4x wide-angle optics, day and night, the capabilities of the weapon are greatly expanded.
                  1. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine April 7 2018 09: 54
                    +1
                    Quote: voyaka uh
                    that Browning 0.5,

                    Ballistics is a property of ammunition, not a specific weapon. Everyone likes the tandem except the people who need to pick it up and carry it.
                    Quote: voyaka uh
                    what M-16

                    Meanwhile in Israel ...
                    1. voyaka uh
                      voyaka uh April 7 2018 11: 05
                      +3
                      I know that I’ve shot from zero-five and I carried (once, fortunately) a bed from him.
                      About ballistics you directly surprised me. Usually they say: "a gun, a gun, with excellent ballistics." But it turns out this is just a shell. And no matter what they shoot him with.
                      Live and learn...

                      "Meanwhile, in Israel" ////

                      Remembering the 90s of the last century. Our "linear snipers" (one per squad) were armed with simple M-16s with an optical sight, legs, and a nozzle on the butt. And snipers of fire support groups armed themselves with M-14.
                      There were no more wound rifles. What is rich, so happy fellow
                      1. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine April 7 2018 12: 34
                        +1
                        Quote: voyaka uh
                        Live and learn...

                        I think you understand me perfectly. A machine gun with the capabilities of Mdvoiki does not have to weigh almost two Cords (on an old machine). I’ll tell you more, for a two-kilometer range and wall-sweeping, the BMG cartridge is not necessary.
                        Quote: voyaka uh
                        Our "linear snipers" (one per squad) were armed with simple M-16s with an optical sight, legs, and a nozzle on the butt. And snipers of fire support groups armed themselves with M-14.

                        I doubt very much that the rafle sharpschooter on the .22 cartridge can be considered a good idea. In any case, the AOI, as far as I know, has changed the marksman twice since then.

                        Little of. There is an opinion that I consider to be well-reasoned that under current conditions the correct infantry caliber from the standard is 7.62x51, and not 5.56.
    3. domokl
      domokl April 6 2018 06: 22
      +2
      Then we turn the weapon into a purely anti-sniper. And the characteristics of machine guns and rifles are almost identical. Then what's the point?
    4. Leomobil
      Leomobil April 6 2018 16: 56
      +2
      There is no sniper cartridge in this caliber, if you put optics from the tank, it won’t get better. This problem is replaced by the number of shots (well, pi ... q how expensive!). Have our sniper for 1 km (338) 10-20 minutes and move on .. Again the authors call us in the 41-45 war .... If you fight with the Slippers gathered ?, the louder the better. :) Combat effectiveness is not kilograms of cartridges, but the number of targets hit. The Syrians now, without tanks, they’re not going anywhere, and you are a company against 20 Taliban .... Why? All of Berlin was taken, under the hoo-hoo of the political leaders. Well, they gave machine guns to every second, and again left the infantry with bayonets .. Go on the attack Russian soldier, we will give you a bipod from a machine gun ... 21 century!
    5. yehat
      yehat April 11 2018 10: 57
      0
      many ideas of supporting powerful calibers in our army stumbled upon the absurd constructions of machine tools - DShK, which the Chinese eased by 74 kg, an example.
      Similarly, during ww2, the severity of the machines did not allow creating an effective mass self-propelled guns like the German hummel.
      So half the question rests simply on the normal study of the details associated with the machine gun. They will do it right - the machine gun will have good prospects.
      The machines that I see now are clearly not the best you can think of. Cartridge boxes are also worth a little refinement for ease of transportation and use. Sighting equipment also needs refinement.
  2. Same lech
    Same lech April 6 2018 06: 14
    +4
    In SYRIA, the advantages of heavy machine guns are especially noticeable ... they penetrate the walls of houses well.
    Militants everywhere beat out of them on our turntables.
  3. Jerk
    Jerk April 6 2018 07: 35
    +5
    You can’t run with the grains. You can only RUN with a machine gun under a rifle cartridge. And with grains you can only ride. And this is a completely different story.
    1. domokl
      domokl April 6 2018 07: 56
      +2
      Look at the photo. In Afghanistan, if they went, then only machine guns. And then on donkeys ... Or on the hump of the fighters
      1. Jerk
        Jerk April 6 2018 10: 30
        +1
        Well, what's the difference that only a machine gun rides? Already in the combined arms you can’t cram this way - we don’t have donkeys in the state, but here’s the story that the whole army should be rearmed for a grain. Well then, let's think about how to refuse march-throws with legs altogether - either only some kind of transport, or, for example, this krupnyak without a span.
        1. CTABEP
          CTABEP April 8 2018 20: 13
          0
          I mean you don’t cram into the pre-war? It seems that in the courtyard of the 21st century, the infantry do not walk with marching throws.
          1. Grid
            Grid April 9 2018 03: 19
            +1
            It seems that in the courtyard of the 21st century, the infantry do not walk with marching throws.

            Well yes. The infantry she flies ...
        2. yehat
          yehat April 11 2018 11: 04
          0
          it’s not about krupnyak everywhere - it’s absurd,
          we are talking about its organic widespread adoption.
          Roughly speaking, in order for him to have a place in tactics and supplies, most units would be able to act in the presence of such a machine gun on the battlefield.
          The Americans somehow were able to bring their old Browning M2 to mind and universally equip the army and provide logistics.
      2. Walking
        Walking April 7 2018 12: 55
        +3
        Quote: domokl
        .Or on the hump of fighters


        The calculation is carried only by the machine gun and the machine, and the tapes are hung on the rest of the fighters, who are not happy about this. Moreover, sometimes it happened that a machine gun was dragged, and the belts remained behind.
        1. yehat
          yehat April 11 2018 11: 06
          0
          it's better than being without a machine gun - with such a thing, much becomes much easier. And if the tape was behind - questions to the commander.
          1. Jerk
            Jerk April 11 2018 11: 41
            0
            Yes, there will be no questions to the commander when the BCs are undershot - they will have to ask the grave. And the soldier, of course, will tolerate everything, but the patient is not planed out of iron (s) It’s painful to look at the machine gunner from the PC and so on before the march
            1. yehat
              yehat April 11 2018 13: 18
              0
              I dragged potatoes as a schoolboy home from the basement of the garden. 11km, 40 kg in a backpack. and also jars of jam bag, of which 2-3 km knee-deep in the snow. somehow coped. And the machine gun, spread out on 4 has suddenly become an unbearable burden? What kind of army is this?
              I don’t know who they think, but I’m sure that the infantryman is simply obliged to cope with the usual march throw with a load of 30 kg and this is NORMAL. Otherwise, this is not a fighter, but some kind of burden. Look at the footage of the Second World War - infantrymen are attacking. In the hands of PPSh 5.3 kg, I think I’m still spare, at least 3 disks - another 3 kg plus a storage bag, helmet, shovel, etc. I think 12 pounds will be typed. So he doesn’t go - he runs, and behind a chain about a miracle - TWO drag a machine gun Maxim with ammunition. And somehow they don’t complain.
              1. Jerk
                Jerk April 15 2018 13: 55
                0
                Well, I ran 11 km in a good forest like this in practice, so that I could swim in the lake))) And why?
                No one says infantry is not dragging dofig on its shoulders. Hanging up to the platoon Krupnyak - exactly the weight of the machine gun, machine tool, and ammunition for the machine gun - will have to throw something. What? You think I don’t remember how to throw away the grub before going out, weight, it’s better for others to take ...
                BC is two sets - "little" and "little, but, stsuka, no longer drag." Krupnyak is a good thing. But since, because of one machine gun, mocking without anything is almost like that, even with NSVT ... I went to your mouth, even better than a PC and normally pulling my own, and so there is something
  4. Denimax
    Denimax April 6 2018 08: 03
    +6
    I thought here, because the 82 mm mortar can be improved. Remove two legs, only the extra 14 kg. To attach two handles like a bicycle wheel to the pipe, install an optical sight and a shutter button there, the mortar itself can sit on the stove. The shooting will be more aimed, the installation time is shorter, and it is unnecessary to look for a flat area. there is only one fulcrum.
    1. Vard
      Vard April 6 2018 08: 34
      +11
      Well, you can do this ... And the mortar can sit on the stove ... but here we need strict selection ... his eggs must be iron ... there is recoil ... mom do not spoil ...
      1. Grid
        Grid April 7 2018 03: 17
        +4
        but strict selection is needed here ...

        And he will be. And strictly according to Darwin. :)
    2. KVU-NSVD
      KVU-NSVD April 6 2018 08: 35
      +8
      install the optical sight there
      And what for a mortar an optical sight? And how to conduct fire without fixing the mortar at the enemy out of sight? Very exotic offer ..
      1. yehat
        yehat April 11 2018 11: 08
        0
        Quote: KVU-NSVD
        And what for a mortar an optical sight?

        read lips curse targets.
    3. mark1
      mark1 April 6 2018 09: 02
      +17
      Quote: Denimax
      the mortar itself can sit on the stove.

      I would probably pay extra to see you riding a stove with a bicycle wheel in hand and an optical sight in the eye before and after the shot. My wife still laughs I can not calm.
      1. mark1
        mark1 April 6 2018 12: 39
        +25
        Perhaps I will bring my three pennies to the process of improving mortar weapons. I propose to abandon sitting on the plate and attach the bicycle saddle directly to the pipe, and connect it to the base plate in the form of a spring-loaded rod from the Grasshopper simulator, then when you shoot, the position (nomadic firing point) automatically and arbitrarily changes, and if you use kinematics to automatic loading then (with a certain dexterity of the mortar), terrible offensive weapons can turn out, with a massive use of which
        psychological impact on the enemy will be worse than sailors on zebras
        1. businessv
          businessv April 6 2018 17: 02
          +3
          Quote: mark1
          psychological impact on the enemy will be worse than sailors on zebras

          Bravo, colleague !!! Pleased, so pleased! While humor is alive, the country is alive! Your comment was saved, reposted to friends, let them neigh too! good drinks
        2. faiver
          faiver April 7 2018 18: 14
          0
          five points, laughed to tears laughing
        3. SASHA OLD
          SASHA OLD April 8 2018 23: 26
          0
          damn I can’t calm down, mortar constructor-humorists made me laugh out loud at half past one in the night!
          super!
        4. Black Colonel
          Black Colonel April 9 2018 13: 24
          0
          Yeah, annealed so annealed !!! BRAVO! He neighed for about ten minutes, hiccuped even longer ...
    4. Bormanxnumx
      Bormanxnumx April 6 2018 10: 30
      +7
      Quote: Denimax
      To attach two handles like a bicycle wheel to the pipe, install an optical sight and a shutter button there, the mortar itself can sit on the stove. The shooting will be more aimed, the installation time is shorter, and it is unnecessary to look for a flat area. there is only one fulcrum.

      Let's immediately at the mortar we’ll fasten the remaining parts from the bike so that you can move to a new position without getting up from the stove)))
    5. BAI
      BAI April 6 2018 10: 48
      +6
      I thought here, because the 82 mm mortar can be improved.

      My father commanded a platoon of 82-mm mortars during the war. It never occurred to anyone. This is something akin to this:

      PPSh was stuffed into the Tu-2 bomb bay to shell enemy columns. No comments.
      1. SASHA OLD
        SASHA OLD April 8 2018 23: 27
        +1
        superganship!
    6. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I April 6 2018 13: 51
      +3
      Quote: Denimax
      the mortar itself can sit on the stove

      And what will happen to his "fifth point"? wink Could it be better to think about "rod" mortars (such as Gall ") ..... or" missile-infantry "installations similar to the Mini-Spike? By the way, you can give corrective ammunition to mortars like" Gall "... like: with a semi-active laser seeker based on the C-8core or with television guidance based on the Blackbird ...
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I April 6 2018 13: 54
        +2
        PS By the way, for some reason, no one suggested AGS-57!
    7. CTABEP
      CTABEP April 8 2018 20: 17
      +2
      Without any strange adapt, light mortars have long been invented - a 60-mm company mortar, M224 for example. Americans almost pray for their company mortars.
      In fact, looking at the same video from Syria, this is clearly visible - when at a distance of 300-400 meters people hide behind the ramparts / walls scorching over their heads from an automatic machine and walking at full height behind these ramparts. But one normal calculation of the mortar - and this behavior quickly ends with a bunch of dead and wounded.
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh April 8 2018 22: 54
        +1
        Uh ... not so good. To ensure the operation of such a mortar, several people are needed.
        Bring mines. Move everything from place to place. And he shoots relatively close.
        That is, the calculation is close to the enemy. As soon as the mortar is discovered, a powerful fire is concentrated on it, moreover, including personal weapons. And you won’t envy the guys. In addition, 60 mm is inaccurate.
        For the mortars to work quietly, they must be further from the enemy.
        Therefore, mortars of larger caliber are more effective.
        And today, a grenade launcher with a range finder can cover the enemy from above: undermining the position + 1 m
        1. IS-80_RVGK2
          IS-80_RVGK2 April 8 2018 23: 22
          0
          I also think that AGS is preferable. And plus to this, small grenade launchers and ATGMs such as Bur and Mini Spike.
        2. yehat
          yehat April 11 2018 11: 14
          0
          I saw a chronicle how the Germans used a 50mm mortar in a frontal infantry attack on exercises and during ww2 - the calculation was so hidden in the folds of the terrain that it was unrealistic to detect it. Yes, and my grandfather 3 years mortar was in the hottest battles and survived. So it seems to me that the effectiveness of small-caliber mortars depends on the experience of infantry.
  5. Strashila
    Strashila April 6 2018 08: 28
    +4
    The machine gunner is priceless ... during the Second World War, the machine gunner had the right for the Germans to retreat to the rear without orders from another.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh April 8 2018 23: 00
      +1
      The Germans in general, all the tactics of the offensive was tied to machine gun groups of 5-7 people. Under the command of a junior officer usually. A pair of such groups and a pair of T-3 tanks managed to seep through the front line. And everyone else distracted attention.
      1. IS-80_RVGK2
        IS-80_RVGK2 April 8 2018 23: 13
        +1
        Which, in principle, is not very good. As soon as the machine-gun crew was knocked out, fire power fell sharply. Yes, and a single machine gun is not mobile enough.
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh April 9 2018 11: 03
          +2
          That's right. The tactics were insanely risky - “on the verge of a foul”, as they say.
          Therefore, after the 2nd World War, not a single army of the world inherited Wehrmacht tactics.
          The IDF, for example, still uses predominantly English tactics of the 2nd World War: squeezing the enemy, based on accurate single fire.
          Advantage: low own losses, no risk. Disadvantage: slow.
          1. Conserp
            Conserp April 11 2018 02: 14
            0
            Quote: voyaka uh
            Therefore, after the 2nd World War, not a single army of the world inherited Wehrmacht tactics.

            This tactic of the Wehrmacht was written off to the scrap by the Wehrmacht itself when it adopted automatic weapons. Stg which.
            1. yehat
              yehat April 11 2018 11: 19
              0
              no one wrote off this tactic for scrap.
              a machine gun was a cheap alternative to arming an army with semi-automatic rifles to provide tight fire at ranges of rifles and carbines.
              The Red Army produced semi-automatic SVT, but it was a rather expensive and controversial decision.
              the USA had a Garand, also a very controversial contraption. And Germany had a Mauser + GPMG (mg34, mg42, maxim, 2 Czech machine guns)

              After the seizure of large warehouses of the USSR in the 41st, the Wehrmacht army with pleasure massively used the SVT.

              stg-44 had a different cartridge, not so powerful, so it could NOT replace a machine gun. Rather, it turned out to be a much more effective replacement for the SMG, allowing dense fire beyond 50 meters.
              1. Conserp
                Conserp April 11 2018 13: 04
                0
                It's not about replacing machine guns.
                We are talking about a very specific tactic of the Wehrmacht and a very specific rejection of this tactic in units armed with the StG-44.

                It was - the advancement of shooters under the cover of a machine gun, then a pause to change the position of the machine gun.
                It became - non-stop advancement of shooters under mutual cover.
                1. yehat
                  yehat April 11 2018 13: 30
                  0
                  with machine guns it was the same - look at the footage of the chronicle.
                  as the machine tool - the back of the assistant machine gunner, he drags cartridges
                  two are running and not stopping for a long time shooting, and next to the compartment runs and firing from carbines. Tactics have not changed at all.
                  1. Conserp
                    Conserp April 11 2018 13: 37
                    0
                    Do not confuse window dressing and installation with real everyday tactics, which are in the reports.
                    For the same "chronicle" you can get a very wrong idea about a lot.
                    1. yehat
                      yehat April 15 2018 14: 36
                      0
                      a chronicle of real events - I saw this on shots in Warsaw, on exercises before the war, in France, on shots from Ukraine - the same trick.
                      so this, I am sure, has been used extensively.
          2. yehat
            yehat April 11 2018 11: 25
            0
            didn’t understand what tactics of precise single fire mean?
            Is this really a tactic?
  6. Blue fox
    Blue fox April 6 2018 08: 58
    +2
    The opinion is interesting, but then it makes sense to think about a "platoon of heavy weapons", for example, some of our adversaries, in which there are large-caliber machine guns and 60-mm mortars. I believe that the spark of 12,7 and 60 calibers is more universal at the company level.
  7. EvilLion
    EvilLion April 6 2018 09: 01
    +3
    Well, let's pose the question on the other hand, is it just about a company? Suppose a beaten German general, Eike Middeldorf, in his book “The Russian Campaign. Tactics and Weapons” states that all heavy weapons should be taken from the company. And in the conditions of a big war, when the main striking factor is artillery, and infantry, as a rule, conduct a battle as part of units at a level if not a division, this does not look somewhat illogical, serious arguments are concentrated in the battalion commander. I can’t say that at the level of precisely infantry weapons, something has changed dramatically compared to the 45 year.

    And it’s precisely for such a war that the army is calculated, while running around the mountains in small groups is a special case requiring greater autonomy and access to more powerful weapons
  8. Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya April 6 2018 09: 31
    +2
    Neighing:
    Long range of fire. Sighting range of several kilometers gives huge advantages for the fight not only with snipers, but also with the calculations of grenade launchers, mortars, anti-tank weapons and even artillery pieces advanced to the front

    Even the American machine gunners and sniper from Browning HB2, according to Yankess tales, can hit a target at a distance of only 2000 m. In reality, I think that a maximum of 1500 m can be shot at a growth target.
    It’s better to use mortars and grenade launchers against targets with a range of 1000 m and more. There, if there will not be a direct hit in an enemy soldier, then he will be cut by fragments.
    1. Rusfaner
      Rusfaner April 6 2018 10: 11
      +5
      Not counter, but pro
      In 1979, the GSVG, exclusively on a proactive basis, worked out a similar task of completely “fixing” a sniper using a “spark” from a front-engine engine (several pieces were found in the warehouse) and “Cornflower”. The rifle does not allow the brow to move for a change of position, but the “Cornflower” gropes and, then, mixes this place with dirt. But! Available at hand PSO-4 - this is no sight for the ATGM, and he flew away from the rifle, no matter how they tinkered with it. Well, the fighter-shooter "objected" ...
    2. yehat
      yehat April 11 2018 11: 31
      0
      Browning is a very good ballistic unit and allows you to shoot accurately at distances of about 2 km. And our new machine guns are not inferior to him. I will say more, at distances of one kilometer even poorly trained soldiers can shoot quite accurately. At least, my brother in the motorized infantry shot enough and, says, cutting a growth target at such a distance is not difficult. But for grenade launchers and mortars, such distances are very many and accuracy is low.
  9. Rakti-kali
    Rakti-kali April 6 2018 10: 27
    +3
    Officially, the reluctance to equip the company commander with heavy machine guns is even motivated not so much by cost, but by concern for the soldier.

    Perhaps the author is not in the know, but usually in a motorized rifle company STANDARD almost a dozen heavy machine guns are present. And sometimes even a dozen automatic guns.
  10. shuravi
    shuravi April 6 2018 10: 33
    +13
    The authors are chasing about Afghanistan. Of course, there is some reality in the examples given, but these are examples of the stupidity of some land commanders who tried to do on their own.
    But such people were quickly put in place, for such “heroism” always ended in casualties.
    Competent commanders, having run into such ambushes, at best fought harassing fire and called the aircraft. The interaction with which, including conditional signals, was worked out the day before.
    1. yehat
      yehat April 11 2018 11: 34
      0
      the aviation challenge is time consuming and overloaded it was often not cheap.
      the presence of a machine gun is a much more affordable means.
      But the author did not say anything else - in Afghanistan often used support artillery batteries that covered a fairly large area. And sometimes they used gas shells with a volumetric explosion to get it for sure
  11. brn521
    brn521 April 6 2018 10: 37
    +5
    It is not clear what kind of war is supposed by the authors. Do they plan to go back half a century back to Afghanistan and take revenge on the bearded users of Chinese DShKM? Now, for example, what kind of tasks and in what context do they propose to solve? From a great distance, the target can be faster, easier and more reliable to knock out a guided missile. If you want to beat out the calculation of a heavy machine gun, then it is also economically advantageous, because such machine guns are quite expensive.
    Large-caliber sniper machine gun is definitely needed, because is a minimal caliber against technology. If you imagine further development prospects, then the infantry will be reduced to a few special forces, plus a militia in the event of a PSU. People are weak, unreliable and die quickly. Even now, they exist on the battlefield only due to the numerous restrictions on truly effective weapons. Now you can’t really use neither mines, nor chemistry, nor nuclear and bacteriological weapons. At the same time, one must constantly remember the “world community” and the need to minimize casualties among the civilian population.
    In general, the bet should be placed on equipment, and mainly on uninhabited one. The same stationary and mobile (so-called robots) turrets. Those. firing from a machine with a high-precision drive and a ballistic computer is supposed. And only then, when the equipment is out of order, the machine gun can be removed from it, jammed at least a telescope as a sight and try to get into something there from half a kilometer or more.
  12. BAI
    BAI April 6 2018 10: 39
    +4
    The prudent authors did not cite TTX. Now there are no such problems as yesterday with overheating of the barrel.
  13. groks
    groks April 6 2018 11: 05
    +1
    A strange look at things. Pathological. If each compartment has a 30mm gun, then why should they have a 12,7mm machine gun?
    In the mountains? There are Cornflowers and Trays in the battalion - and the range is greater and the striking ability. Aviation still remained with artillery.
    Those. the author is considering some strange option when all the above branches died. And the BMP-BTR squad fell in love. Partisans chtol?
    1. domokl
      domokl April 7 2018 04: 11
      0
      See Syria. A lot there on the front of guns and mortars? The fighters are beating at the enemy mainly from heavy machine guns. I wonder why most have such radicalism? Give the platoon an extra machine gun and take away everything else. And if you "put everything on your feet", not to take it away, but add it to the available funds?
      1. groks
        groks April 7 2018 08: 35
        0
        What kind of fantasies? Where are the guns in the ranks of the infantry ?! 82 mortar has a range of up to 4km.
    2. Conserp
      Conserp April 11 2018 02: 41
      0
      Quote: groks
      Pathological. If each compartment has a 30mm gun, then why should they have a 12,7mm machine gun

      How do you drag an infantry fighting vehicle onto the roof of a house, for example?
      1. groks
        groks April 11 2018 07: 34
        0
        What for? Are we about partisans?
        1. Conserp
          Conserp April 11 2018 13: 25
          0
          This was an example.
          1. groks
            groks April 11 2018 13: 35
            0
            Clear. And how will a large-caliber machine gun behave if it is immersed in hydrochloric acid? This is also an example.
            1. Conserp
              Conserp April 11 2018 13: 40
              0
              This is not an example. This is a stupid grimacing.

              Positions inaccessible to armored vehicles, the war is full. Unlike acid baths.
              1. groks
                groks April 11 2018 14: 32
                0
                So for example.
                The war is full of mud baths through which it is problematic to drag a machine gun.
                1. Conserp
                  Conserp April 11 2018 14: 59
                  0
                  And why unnecessarily drag him through the mud baths?
                  KP on the same BMP should ride, along with the AGS, RPG and RShG.
  14. Butchcassidy
    Butchcassidy April 6 2018 12: 24
    +3
    And the stream, which there was darkness, in the heat plays the role of "madness for bullets."

    Colleagues, explain, please, what does this phrase mean? What kind of craziness for bullets?
    1. AlexTss
      AlexTss April 6 2018 12: 51
      +6
      Not a specialist, but I think the matter is in the air flows due to the temperature difference between the underlying surfaces what
      Hot Stones - Cold Creek what
      1. domokl
        domokl April 7 2018 04: 15
        +2
        Exactly. In the mountains, the distance is already “lost”, and the presence of zones with high humidity, i.e. completely different air characteristics affect bullets stupefully. And if there is also a breeze, then the ballistics changes to unpredictability.
        1. groks
          groks April 11 2018 13: 38
          0
          So that the distance does not "stray", there is a marking in the sight. Are we talking about optics?
          Interestingly - the lateral wind does not interfere, since this weak air flow? Is this something new in physics?
  15. shuravi
    shuravi April 6 2018 13: 07
    +4
    Quote: ButchCassidy
    And the stream, which there was darkness, in the heat plays the role of "madness for bullets."

    Colleagues, explain, please, what does this phrase mean? What kind of craziness for bullets?


    Yes doesn’t mean anything. Journalists sometimes like to shine, as a rule out of place randomly heard jargon.

    PS
    It would not be bad if the site published information about the authors, at least with regard to knowledge of the subject matter.
    But they are unlikely to go for it, "the king will turn out to be naked." laughing
  16. Vladimir Kazakov
    Vladimir Kazakov April 6 2018 13: 32
    +3
    KKP is needed in the army. But he has a special place in the composition of his mouth, and it is necessary to consider the KKP together with the ATGM, AGS and large-caliber 12.7mm sniper rifles.
    Companies on BMPs do not need this weapon (until dismounting) due to the lack of advantages over 30mm and ATGMs. Companies on armored personnel carriers need such weapons, in view of the presence of only three CPV. But this raises the question of staging all these weapons in transport. And this is a banal question - a question of money.
    As long as there are no BMPs and armored personnel carriers (boomerangs with 30mm) in our aircraft that have the same fire capabilities, overlapping KKP, AGS, ATGMs, the creation of fire support platoons for assault units would be a temporary solution. But here the organization’s problem arises - this is the fourth platoon, it needs transport, personnel should be carefully selected due to high physical exertion, and undergo special training. Well, in the end it’s expensive - 2 KKP, 2 ATGM, 2 AGS and three or four vehicles cost money.
    But in my humble opinion, our armed forces need fire support companies as part of assault battalions.
  17. Wilderness
    Wilderness April 6 2018 13: 35
    +6
    Somehow little familiar with the tactics of motorized rifle, but do they conduct military operations as part of the "naked" platoons, companies, etc.? I once thought that company, battalion, and so on were being formed. tactical groups? With the appropriate means of strengthening the level of regiment brigade? Those. need a platoon 12,7-will temporarily give 12,7, do you need 5? Give 5. Need a tank, give a tank. At the usual time, shoving everything that might come in handy in the structure ... The staff of the unit is not rubber;
    1. yehat
      yehat April 11 2018 11: 37
      0
      it's not about blindly stuffing a machine gun, but about prescribing it as a unit, so that adding it to a tactical group is more natural. In our country, most of the infantry do not know anything about the machine gun - even many see Kalash only on oath and rare shooting.
  18. Curious
    Curious April 6 2018 13: 57
    +12
    The author’s logic, of course, is impeccable, but for some reason the flight was interrupted on take-off. Why did the author stop arming the dushmans at the Chinese DShK. Moreover, he constantly turns to the Afghan experience. Just this experience suggests that in some ATP, and quite often, it was possible to meet the Chinese analogue of the Soviet PGI with 14,5 mm type 58 (aka the Soviet CPV). For an equal answer, the platoon must be given the CPVM. But then worse. In the same rocky firing points there were also Chinese YW 306 (Soviet ZU-2) and even 20 mm Erlikons.
    How to be here? Yes Easy. Introduce the Shilka platoon. It’s true that it’s hard to wear, but what can’t you do to feel confident in battle. Here you can think about introducing Sherpas into the platoon, which are known as irreplaceable alpine porters.
    1. domokl
      domokl April 7 2018 04: 20
      +1
      Not a solution to the problem. ATP was built so that the enemy did not have the opportunity to withdraw an armored personnel carrier or infantry fighting vehicle to a position suitable for shooting. It will be the same with “Shilka” or something similar. Here to help, according to the Afghan experience, art or aviation ... There are no more options ..
  19. motorized rifle
    motorized rifle April 6 2018 14: 23
    +7
    It’s strange to read about the absence of mortars in the motorized rifle battalion. We had a mini-battery, 1 platoon of “cornflowers” ​​and 2 platoons of 120mm in the SME. This is the full-time structure of SMEs SA.
    Maybe it was not that Afghanistan? Maybe virtual? In addition, the AGS-17 platoon was in the battalion, it was called the “grenade launcher”, it was listed in the battalion’s administration. And although the authors write that this is the "only means of strengthening MSB," but "it" with grammatical use, coped with such tasks. But at that time there would have been a thermobaric grenade for RPG-7V, it would have been much easier.
    It is difficult to say whether such a machine gun is needed or not needed in a platoon - company, but my opinion is still a battalion level, or a separate unit. Mobile units should not have portable weapons heavier than 10 kg (my personal opinion).
    1. groks
      groks April 6 2018 18: 38
      +4
      The author is very divorced from reality. It seems that he believes that Vasilka does not have enough range and that a mine that has fallen from above will have less effect than a lump that strikes a rock.
  20. Kremlevets
    Kremlevets April 6 2018 14: 35
    +6
    Remember the fire support at the infantry battalion? BTR or BMP and ... AGS-17. A good 30mm automatic grenade launcher, but in real combat is often the only fire support weapon.
    And what was at the disposal of the battalion infantry battalion commander? Yes, the same thing. But with the addition of 82 mm mortars. That’s why they threw airborne battalions to the aid of motorized rifles. A strange "author", the infantry battalion commander at Borodino really had no mortars, and the infantry battalion commander in the Russian-Turkish 1877-1878, the Russo-Japanese 1904-1905 and the First World War 1914-1918 did not have mortars at the infantry battalions. Well and there were no paratroopers with 82 mm mortars or spears and bows. But the battalion battalion battalion battalion on June 22, 1941 already had a mortar company of 9 82 mm mortar battalions. The battalion battalion battalion battalion in Afghanistan had a mortar battery. different in state. For example, as the commander of the MSB in one battalion, our Minbatr had a 120-mm “Sani”, became the commander of the MSR in another SMB, the Minbatr had 82-mm “Trays” there, and became the NSH SMB our Minbatr had “Cornflowers.” In Tajikistan, as the commander of the MSB mortars were 82-mm mortars arr. 1938 Some parachute assault battalions with mortars hurrying to the rescue of motorized riflemen, what a nonsense. Just like the “Chipi Dale” some kind of mortars. What kind of landing chauvinism. He served 17 years in the motorized rifle troops, of which 4 years in Tajikistan during the Civil War of 1993-1998, except for artillery and Army Aviation, who helped horseradish. Then when he studied at the Academy. Frunze was surprised to learn that while I was wandering around Gorno-Badakhshan, for all kinds of Vanch, Yazgulyam, Tavildarams, as the commander of a mountain infantry detachment on the basis of SMBs and the main method of delivery to the mountains were helicopters. My "winged friends" instead of landing with me from neighboring helicopters. We rode around Yugoslavia on an BTR-80 taken from the Taman MSD and even with regular drivers motorized rifles.
  21. garri-lin
    garri-lin April 6 2018 14: 48
    +1
    A large caliber is good but heavy. At the same weight, AGS 40-57 mm will be much more effective. Bouncing a grenade before the explosion and a good sight. In essence, there will be pocket artillery for reinforcement at the platoon-DIVISION level. The cumulative ammunition in this caliber will pose a threat to the majority of armored vehicles if hit in the roof.
    The pressure regulator in the barrel at the time of the shot will provide the maximum sheer drop of the grenade on the target at any firing distance.
    A machine gun cannot provide this.
    1. medvedron
      medvedron April 6 2018 17: 41
      0
      And what is the range and speed of the grenade?
      1. garri-lin
        garri-lin April 6 2018 21: 09
        0
        For calibers 40-57 mm more than 2 km
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 April 6 2018 21: 16
          +1
          But it’s not clear, have they adopted the Balkans?
  22. businessv
    businessv April 6 2018 16: 46
    +1
    Moreover, our heavy machine guns are really good.

    In my opinion, our cords are the best in this class in terms of weight / efficiency. Kord is just superb! It amazes with power and aiming, which is not characteristic of weapons of this class and purpose.
  23. pogis
    pogis April 6 2018 16: 55
    +1
    I read on the trenches several years ago the recollections of an officer about the destruction of a machine gun nest from a cliff in Afghanistan in the mountains with indirect aiming, the consumption of about 15 cartridges — one was killed, the second was wounded very seriously.
    1. ARES623
      ARES623 April 6 2018 17: 21
      +1
      Quote: pogis
      from Cliff to Afghanistan in the mountains with indirect interference

      Cliff Indirect Induction - How's It? Canopy? From a closed firing position, like a howitzer? Something new....
      1. Curious
        Curious April 6 2018 20: 27
        +5
        "Cliff Indirect Induction - How's It? Canopy? From a closed firing position, like a howitzer? Something new...."
        This is a well-forgotten old.
        1. Curious
          Curious April 6 2018 20: 28
          +1

          The "combat drill of machine gun infantry teams" of 1915, see for yourself.
          1. ARES623
            ARES623 April 6 2018 20: 37
            0
            Quote: Curious
            The "combat drill of machine gun infantry teams" of 1915, see for yourself.

            Warfare is such a thing in which the ineffective sooner or later dies. In a positional war with attacks by the masses of people, this method may have had an effect (albeit dubious). Today, such fire is not practiced in SMEs, as this is a waste of resources and ammunition.
            1. Curious
              Curious April 6 2018 20: 42
              +1
              First, as I understand it, the very possibility of firing a machine gun from closed positions was discussed. There is one. Secondly, even Peter the Great called "not to adhere to the charter, like a blind wall." Therefore, in each specific combat situation, a variety of techniques can be applied. Sometimes timely improvisation helps a lot.
              Therefore, talking about the impossibility of using this type of shooting is unlawful.
            2. bunta
              bunta April 7 2018 18: 55
              +1
              Quote: ARES623
              In a positional war with attacks by the masses of people, this method may have had an effect (albeit dubious).

              And you read A. Shumilin "Vanka-company." There at the expense of doubtfulness is very well shown. IMHO it all depends on skill.
              1. ARES623
                ARES623 April 7 2018 19: 07
                0
                Quote: bunta
                IMHO it all depends on skill.

                Well, you would still remember Kulikovo field. Today we live in a completely different technological world. What the MCP commander has today, Vanka-rotny could not even dream of. And then, memoirs multiplied by an artistic whistle is not a very efficient historical source. And in this case - it's all about Stirlitz. I would refer the mention of this work to a sort of sarcasm or something ... Once this is read, it is not in the sphere of interests.
                1. bunta
                  bunta April 8 2018 22: 21
                  +1
                  Quote: ARES623
                  Once this is read, it is not in the sphere of interests.

                  That says it all.
                  1. ARES623
                    ARES623 April 9 2018 10: 34
                    0
                    Quote: bunta
                    That says it all.

                    Yes, yes, I leave the tales to the children. This is the same as discussing intelligence methods according to Semenov.
      2. yehat
        yehat April 11 2018 11: 42
        +1
        if you raise the trunk higher, the cliff will make any mortar cry out of envy - how much will begin to fall from the sky)))
    2. domokl
      domokl April 7 2018 04: 26
      0
      Quote: pogis
      one killed the second wounded very hard to meet.

      The calculation of DShKM spirits was 5-6 people usually. Lucky your officer. Some cropped calculation got. Yes, and even a couple of donkeys for carrying)))
      1. pogis
        pogis April 12 2018 19: 11
        0
        It was a fortified area ..
  24. Micfoster
    Micfoster April 6 2018 16: 59
    +5
    I do not agree with the author of the article! I ask the author to think over this question more carefully!
  25. ARES623
    ARES623 April 6 2018 17: 18
    +2
    The author clearly did not serve in motorized rifle units. Yes, and "across the river" hardly went. The 12,7 mm caliber is good, but not for running around in the field. The fact that the infantry rides has a much more serious caliber and capabilities. Cord is good for tasks with low dynamics, and therefore it makes no sense to introduce it to the MCP staff. Moreover, targets opposing SMEs are increasingly reinforced by booking 30 mm cannons from shells.
  26. medvedron
    medvedron April 6 2018 17: 37
    +3
    The author has one inaccuracy, the cliff optics was designed for a range of up to two kilometers, although its multiplicity should still be increased.
  27. serge siberian
    serge siberian April 6 2018 17: 56
    0
    If you think over all the options, then it’s probably worth it to have “Cliffs” and AGSy beat in each company. We need equipment for them. As an example, the Chinese got FD locomotives from the USSR and increased the local brigade to 5 people dispersed it to 120km / h. But most often, CCP and mortars have to be carried by people. hi
    1. medvedron
      medvedron April 6 2018 22: 05
      0
      The three of us were dragging a cliff with three boxes of bk seven km over rough terrain, such as a beam and a field, plus each of us with AK-74 with bk to them and armor with helmets. Yes, with small respects we trudged about twenty minutes. And the new one, Kord, he will be easier and more precisely.
      1. Glory1974
        Glory1974 April 7 2018 18: 53
        +3
        The three of us were dragging a cliff with three boxes of seven km cross-country BC,

        we trudged about twenty minutes.

        7 km in 20 minutes with respite is a phenomenal result.
        This is the average speed of 21 km per hour!
        1. SASHA OLD
          SASHA OLD April 8 2018 23: 43
          0
          Surely it meant "20 minutes dragging - a break", etc.
  28. shuravi
    shuravi April 6 2018 18: 27
    +4
    Quote: pogis
    I read on the trenches several years ago the recollections of an officer about the destruction of a machine gun nest from a cliff in Afghanistan in the mountains with indirect aiming, the consumption of about 15 cartridges — one was killed, the second was wounded very seriously.


    Caution you need to read memoirs. wink
  29. groks
    groks April 6 2018 18: 51
    +8
    Appeal to the author. Dear fellow countryman. Recent articles provoke a negative reaction among most users of this site. The style is magnificent, but in fact it is a mixture of tales, distortions and some unhealthy engagement. In relation to the participants of this particular site, mockery is obtained.
    I would like to ask for a more constructive approach to writing.
  30. the same doctor
    the same doctor April 6 2018 20: 16
    +2
    Syria clearly showed that Kalash weapons are only personal self-defense, like checkers or pistols. Each compartment should have its own large, each company mortar battery. Yes, not cheap. But the real expenses will come later. In the future, Ptur and their analogues will become the main weapon of the ground forces. I would compare the need for them with the need for cartridges at the end of the nineteenth century. Soon it will not be a pity to spend a couple of missiles on one infantryman. And then you need a tool that achieves any goal at direct line of sight. the largest means is seen here, namely, krupnyak, and infantry without a large-caliber tribe will be simply helpless.
    Or go on the return ramps and fight only with artillery.
    .
    It is possible to reduce costs only by modifying the current machine guns in order to increase their combat capabilities. They will become even more expensive, but they will need less. In five years, the directions of this modernization will become clear to everyone. Well, we are spending time on undersized robots-pseudo-tankettes, so that we can again trudge behind the west.
    1. ARES623
      ARES623 April 6 2018 20: 48
      +3
      Quote: also a doctor
      Each compartment should have its own large, each company mortar battery.

      You would have this big thing on your shoulder, but to drive it to the attack ... This is equivalent to a truck on bicycle wheels. Rave. And about the Minbatre, so the MCP commander already has almost 2 art. batteries. 100mm howitzers capable of firing with a PDO. Here are just no data to prepare for the shooting, because this requires, at a minimum, an artillery officer. And BUT BMP-3 must have special training for firing as part of a unit with closed firing positions. And besides, the MCP never conducts hostilities in space, it is always supported by an artillery unit or something else according to the situation.
  31. shuravi
    shuravi April 6 2018 21: 24
    +4
    First of all, those who walk with their own feet do not need to hang heavy weapons, but good communication, navigation and target designation.
    1. domokl
      domokl April 7 2018 04: 34
      +1
      Communication is really a big ass. Was and is. Navigation? They can create something in the "one person" order of a pound weighing well.
      And we still won't get away from heavy weapons. Syria shows that automata are now more for their own comfort or against fools. The firing range has increased so much that fights with real shooting from this type of weapon are rare ...
  32. groks
    groks April 7 2018 08: 48
    +1
    This is already some kind of craziness. Supporters of the TS - look, what is armed with the MCP. And do not write nonsense anymore.
  33. demiurg
    demiurg April 7 2018 17: 42
    0
    Guided missiles with thermobaric warheads will do much more good for the enemy. Instead of introducing obscure weapons into the platoon / company, they would have done the obvious thing: to make the BMP BMP mobile and issue something like a baby in the platoon on the BTR.
  34. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh April 7 2018 19: 20
    +1
    Cherry nine,
    "A machine gun with the capabilities of Mdvoyki does not have to weigh like two Cords" ////

    I don’t know anything about Kord. And from zero-five I had to do a sighting of about 800 meters. With a tripod. Browning has a useful feature - single fire. You twist the lever, start up one tracer. The second number is through binoculars. Corrected - another tracer. Until you hit the target. In my case, there was a can of Coca-Cola. But then you can no longer look at the sight at all. You bring the handles and press the trigger without looking. And the bullets come into one another (what I called good ballistics). And for this, the whole structure must be massive. So that nothing shifts from vibrations.
  35. Xscorpion
    Xscorpion April 7 2018 19: 22
    +3
    Quote: Wilderness
    Somehow little familiar with the tactics of motorized rifle, but do they conduct military operations as part of the "naked" platoons, companies, etc.? I once thought that company, battalion, and so on were being formed. tactical groups? With the appropriate means of strengthening the level of regiment brigade? Those. need a platoon 12,7-will temporarily give 12,7, do you need 5? Give 5. Need a tank, give a tank. At the usual time, shoving everything that might come in handy in the structure ... The staff of the unit is not rubber;


    Absolutely true. It’s just that affectors are not aware of this, and make estimates based on the armament of one Msr. Unaware that they are at least fighting at present with the company tactical groups, which, in addition to the company of motorized rifles, include a mortar platoon, ATGM calculation, and the AGS department, tank platoon, Gvozdik platoon, detachment of flamethrowers, reconnaissance detachment from the reconnaissance battalion of the brigade, and, if necessary, the calculation of UAVs from the company of the UAV of the brigade. This is the minimum set that can be strengthened with heavier weapons up to the Grad depending on the tasks performed.
  36. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh April 7 2018 19: 43
    +2
    Cherry nine,
    In the infantry units nothing larger than 5.56 is needed. Great cartridge. Bullets can be made more armor-piercing (it will cost more, but it will pay off). One sniper with "long" optics, one light machine gun with wide optics. And the arrows in 3x wide optics - aimed shooting single, of course.
    But in the company groups of fire support - there is 7.62 X 51. Both the machine gunners and the snipers.
    It's not about calibers, but about sights. When ALL have optical sights, no other calibers are needed.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine April 7 2018 21: 22
      +1
      Quote: voyaka uh
      In the infantry units nothing larger than 5.56 is needed

      There is such an opinion, of course.
      Quote: voyaka uh
      It's not about calibers, but about sights.

      Just one of the arguments is that modern mass sights outgrew those distances for which an intermediate cartridge was conceived.
      Quote: voyaka uh
      In my case, there was a can of Coca-Cola. .. And the bullets enter one another

      Not that I prevented you from telling hunting stories, but the story about accuracy is much less than 1MOA gross machine-gun (!) Tracer (!!!) cartridge would be worth saving for girls. Unlucky girls.
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh April 8 2018 10: 22
        0
        "gross machine-gun (!) tracer (!!!) cartridge" ///

        I was also impressed. From the MAG, this will not work. But I was looking through binoculars. And the officer shot for verification. (without touching the settings). 800 m for Browning-0.5, far from the limit
        distance. Accuracy is high. There was no wind (at sunset).
        Do not be surprised that it has not been changed for 100 years.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine April 8 2018 14: 14
          0
          Quote: voyaka uh
          But I was looking through binoculars.

          Excuse me, but what exactly did you see with binoculars? 0,33 coke can with traces more hits caliber 12,7, I understand correctly?
          1. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh April 8 2018 14: 20
            +1
            Of course not. A can of bullets was torn to shreds even when shooting.
            She was, as it were, the center of the target. And the edges of the target were white stones,
            some. I saw them and saw a dark hole in a steep rock, which the bullets hollowed out and into which flew.
  37. cat hippopotamus
    cat hippopotamus April 8 2018 10: 18
    +1
    For a platoon to have such weapons, of course it's cool, but to carry even in a disassembled form is not the best way to affect mobility. At a minimum, you need to have a UAZ for transporting a machine gun and B.K.
  38. bone1
    bone1 April 8 2018 10: 59
    +1
    The author would have to drag a large-caliber machine gun at least during exercises, and we would listen to how he would swear, and then give advice. laughing He cited a rare case, the Dushmans from the DShK and the terrain is open-type didn’t come up with the means to destroy the firing point? -And if they had an anti-aircraft gun, what should we also take into service?
  39. Strashila
    Strashila April 9 2018 06: 41
    0
    Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
    Which, in principle, is not very good. As soon as the machine-gun crew was knocked out, fire power fell sharply. Yes, and a single machine gun is not mobile enough.

    According to experts ... the firepower of the machine gun amounted to 75% of the unit ... that's why everything actually revolved around it.
  40. Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul 25 August 2018 23: 29
    0
    That warp in the direction of grenade launchers and light hand guns


    This is tracing paper with NATO terminology: heavy and light machine guns.

    But by God, the one who fumbled his RMB won't turn his tongue to call it "easy"!

    laughing