Military Review

Swedish "Griffin" of the fifth generation

184
Swedish "Griffin" of the fifth generation

The main weapon “Gripena” - the adequacy of its creators. The art of cutting off obviously impossible requirements, focusing on real-world tasks and opportunities.


According to the generally accepted theory, for the 4th generation fighter aviation should follow the “fifth” with a prescribed set of certain qualities. Stealth. Cruising supersonic. Avionics of a new sample. While maintaining the high agility inherent in generation 4.

The only possible layout for such an aircraft was the layout of the “Raptor” with a trapezoidal wing and two-quilted V-shaped tail. All the rest is the interpretation of this scheme. One solution that gives two correct answers:

c) meeting the requirements of the “stealth” technology due to the parallelism of the edges of the trapezoidal wing and the reduction of the EPR in the lateral projection due to the collapse of the keels;

b) maintaining high maneuverability due to four-vortex aerodynamics. Primary eddies, formed by the influx of the wing, interact with the V-shaped keels, which allows you to maintain control at any angle of attack.


For the first time, this idea, taken as the basis for creating the 5 generation, was implemented on the F / A-18 “Hornet” fighter.


This is what a fifth generation fighter should look like. But the designers of the company SAAB have their own opinions on this issue. According to the Swedes, the established set of characteristics for the “fifth generation”, as well as its technical features, are just ways to achieve the goal. What is the main task of the modern fighter? Survive over the battlefield!

Hiding in the hope of being left unnoticed by the enemy, according to the Swedes, is not the most effective option. When creating the Gripen E fighter, the integrated parameter “survivability” was put in the cornerstone, combining the situational awareness of the pilot with the ability to counter various threats.

The first to detect danger. Bypass the ambush. In time to apply fire traps. Confuse the enemy. “Suppress” active noise homing missiles. Ideally, use weapons from the maximum distance, without the need to approach the target.

The bold theory is based on the novelties of the European military industry. The Swedish Air Force was the first to adopt the MBDA Meteor long-range air defense missile system. Thanks to the use of the Meteor sustained ramjet, the 3 — 6 is times more energetic than other air-to-air missiles. At the same time, unlike the French “Rafale”, the Swedish “Gripenes” use a more advanced modification of Meteor with a two-way data exchange channel.

Melee weapons - IRIS-T. The high sensitivity of the GOS and the ability to perform maneuvers with 60-multiple overload allows you to intercept small-sized targets, including issued by the enemy Zour and POW.

The new version of “Gripen E” (or “Gripen NG”), according to the developers, provides situational awareness at the level of 5 generation fighters through the use of key components:

- ES-05 RAVAN radar with AFAR, providing the pilot with a larger viewing angle;
- Skyward-G all-view electro-optical detection system operating in the thermal range. European analogue of the AN / AAQ-37 system installed on F-35 fighter jets;
- a network-centric data exchange system that allows the Gripenov pilots to monitor the status of other aircraft of their combat group (weapon status, amount of fuel, warning about detected threats, target distribution in combat).

And also:
- all-view warning system for radiation exposure and active jamming (EW);
- increased fuel supply by 40%;
- 10 points for the suspension of weapons and suspension containers with reconnaissance and sighting equipment.

All this allows “Gripenam E” to fully justify its designation JAS (fighter-attack reconnaissance).

According to the Swedes, the “gripenes” of the new modification are capable of creating much greater problems for the enemy than the fourth-generation multi-purpose fighters. So, they - a new round in the evolution of fighter aircraft.



The concept of "survival" is the first.

Second, a combat aircraft must regularly fly into the sky, allowing pilots to hone their skills and skills. Here, JAS-39E continues the traditions of the Gripen family, which have received the reputation of the simplest and cheapest in operation among fourth-generation fighter jets.

According to the Janes 2012 Yearbook, the cost of one hour of JAS-39C flight was 4700 dollars, twice as low as that of the closest competitor, the single-engine F-16.

Among other records of the small “Gripen”: over thirty years of operation, he has ditched one person. Swedish fighter has the lowest level of accidents among peers.

Now let's talk about its shortcomings.

The Swedes could not create their own engine.

The Volvo RM-12 is a licensed copy of the General Electric F404 created for the F / A-18 Hornet and the F-117 bomber.

“Gripen E” also uses a US-made engine F414, modifications GE-39-E.

Despite the similar designation, F414 is considered a new development based on the YF-120 engine, created for the fifth-generation fighter YF-23 (the rival YF-22 Raptor).



Compared to its predecessor (F404), the degree of pressure increase in the F414 compressor has been increased from 25 to 30, engine thrust has increased by 30%. In general, specialists respect the F404 / F414 family, emphasizing their rather high characteristics and constructive perfection. The latter develops a thrusting mode of around 6 tons in afterburner mode (at the afterburner - all 10), with an engine mass of around 1 tons. A quarter of a century ago nobody had such indicators. And by the ratio of the specific thrust to the air flow, it is still the absolute world record holder (air consumption at the forcing of 77 kg / s).

Obviously, the Swedes do not see problems in the use of American power plants. Sanctions and embargo do not threaten them. The rest is the best of the engines on the world market for combat aircraft.

In my opinion, the only real problem is the low gripping capacity of the Gripen. In the single-engine layout itself, there is no problem if there is a sufficiently powerful and high-torque engine.

Unfortunately for the Swedes, F404 / F414 is not enough to work alone. It is no coincidence that the multi-purpose deck “Hornet” / “SuperHornet”, considered to be light-class fighters, have a twin-engine layout.

In the fighter-interceptor version, with a combat mass of 9-10 tons (corresponding to 40% fuel balance and 4-6 URVV), Swedish Gripen has a thrust-to-weight ratio less than 0,9. Even the small mass of the aircraft itself does not save (it is three tons lighter than the F-16), since the single-engine “Falcon” is equipped with engines of a different order (its F100 gives 13 tons at the afterburner with 1,7 tons of dry weight).

The new generation Gripen E is in a better position, however, the F414 thrust increased by one-third is leveled by the increased mass of the fighter itself (the maximum take-off is 16 tons).

The Swedes themselves arrogantly notice that the flight qualities are undoubtedly important, but they are not a priority in aerial combat and in overcoming the lines of modern air defense.

Conclusion

The story of the fighter "Gripen" is devoted to a recent debriefing, where an analysis of the confrontation of JAS-39E and Su-57 was carried out.

In an attempt to find out whether the Gripen E meets the requirements of the fifth generation, many controversial statements were made, and the Swedish fighter itself was as a result attributed to the Yak-130 level. That in itself is absurd: a combat fighter has three times more thrust-to-weight ratio than TCB.

I hope this article will be able to clarify some points and understand the concept of “Gripen”. JAS-39C and perspective JAS-39E are not primitive small toys, but serious combat vehicles, with their own advantages and disadvantages. If someone else is interested in the question of whether “Gripen E” is a competitor to our Su-57, then the answer depends on the conditions of the problem. For those who want to buy the “top” fighters of the fifth generation, for example, Su-57 or F-35, the Swedish “Gripen E” is of no interest. As for the meeting of fighters in battle, everything is much easier. Someone says that “Gripen” will win; someone, on the contrary, that he will be immediately shot down. But, honestly speaking, nobody knows. One thing is clear: “Gripen E” is not so weak as to not take it seriously.

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  1. Cxnumx
    Cxnumx 22 March 2018 05: 47
    +4
    If someone else is interested in the question - is “Gripen E” a competitor to our Su-57, then the answer depends on the conditions of the problem.
    Well, yes ... if you look at the conditions of the problem, then the MiG-29 is a competitor and the F-16. the main thing is to formulate the problem correctly))
    1. Horst78
      Horst78 22 March 2018 06: 07
      +21
      "Gripen" in its class is in my opinion the best. Originally created with the ability to take off from the road. in Sweden, an extensive network of parking near roads in case of destruction of airfields. Competitors have no such reserve of survival of the Air Force.
      1. Cxnumx
        Cxnumx 22 March 2018 06: 23
        +4
        Quote: Horst78
        Originally created with the ability to take off from the road. in Sweden, an extensive network of parking near roads in case of destruction of airfields.

        MiGs can do that too (probably some Chinese ones too), will we write in the 5th?
        Quote: Horst78
        Competitors have no such reserve of survival of the Air Force.

        does it also immediately relate to the 5th?
        if you pose the question in such a way that 1 or 2 very high technical parameters immediately relates it to a new generation, then the world has long since invented 5th generation fighters. it remains to surprise all these dances around the f-22 and su-57, because everything is already there.
        1. Horst78
          Horst78 22 March 2018 06: 26
          +5
          Did I say something about the 5 generation?
          1. Cxnumx
            Cxnumx 22 March 2018 06: 27
            +1
            Quote: Horst78
            Did I say something about the 5 generation?

            we thought in the key of the article "Swedish" Griffin of the "fifth generation" we are talking and my comment about the "task". then I’m calling, I do not understand.
            1. Horst78
              Horst78 22 March 2018 06: 30
              0
              hi all normal drinks
      2. Safevi
        Safevi 22 March 2018 09: 30
        +8
        Great plane! Like everything Swedish! The best option for the scheme "price-quality"
        1. NN52
          NN52 22 March 2018 10: 13
          +13
          Safevi

          And what is the price of this little pepelats, you know?
          Something the author of the article for some reason forgot to mention ...
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 22 March 2018 11: 49
            +5
            Quote: NN52
            And what is the price of this little pepelats, you know?

            $ 50M in an Indian tender. Like an F-16.
            1. NN52
              NN52 22 March 2018 13: 26
              +12
              Cherry Nine

              And where does this price come from?
              It turns out the Brazilians burst, having bought 36 boards for 4,5 billion green raccoons?
              Or did the Indians do well?
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 24 March 2018 05: 30
                +2
                Quote: NN52
                And where does this price come from?

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_MRCA_competi
                production
                Quote: NN52
                burst out, having bought 36 boards for 4,5 billion green raccoons?

                1. We do not know all the terms of the transaction. Including the distribution of amounts between contractors. The Brazilian contract provided for huge localization.
                2. Brazil is a country where 2 years ago half of the government was imprisoned for corruption and impeached by the president.
                Quote: NN52
                Or did the Indians do well?

                Not a fact yet. They will be great if they crawl into the queue for penguins.
        2. d1975
          d1975 22 March 2018 22: 55
          +3
          Quote: sefevi
          Great plane! Like everything Swedish! The best option for the scheme "price-quality"

          And what's good about him? Take away the engine and there’s no plane! Yes, and there is no beauty in it, Ponte, solid Ponte! Amerikosy will fly tomorrow and that's it, ales kaput, Gripen!
          1. dauria
            dauria 24 March 2018 01: 13
            +6
            And what's good about him?

            Amazing peacetime airplane. Eats a little, an hour of flight is cheap, scares cows. What else does ? True, the Chinese version of the Jewish "Lavi" J-10 is exactly the same. Nostril to nostril, if the REO is updated.

            1. Mista_dj
              Mista_dj April 3 2018 20: 14
              +2
              With the tongue removed)))
              Good, until the first "batch", and if something happened - a casual airplane, in the C grade.
            2. asr55
              asr55 9 November 2020 16: 25
              0
              Flight hour is cheap, what are you talking about ?!
          2. Parabelum
            Parabelum 14 July 2018 17: 27
            -1
            Hmm, remove the engine from any airplane, it will immediately become a scooter
        3. mariusdeayeraleone
          mariusdeayeraleone 23 March 2018 21: 23
          0
          We need such planes at least 60.
          1. Vadim237
            Vadim237 24 March 2018 01: 22
            +1
            So order - there are connections with the Swedes.
        4. Butchcassidy
          Butchcassidy 9 July 2018 12: 36
          +1
          Great plane! Like everything Swedish! The best option for the scheme "price-quality"

          The MiG-35 is better in performance and cheaper, in addition, it is faster, faster and with a controlled thrust vector!
      3. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 22 March 2018 12: 36
        +6
        Quote: Horst78
        Gripen "in my class is in my opinion the best.

        And what is his class?

        It seems that it was here that bad luck came out. The fighter on one engine from the F-18 was conceived, it seems, like a new freedomfighter. A small and cheap aircraft under the NATO standard for those who are not financially / politically advanced to large aircraft, but want a NATO weapon, not a Soviet kit. At one time, this freedomfighter fought pretty well.

        But only cheap Greenspan did not work.
        1. Sergey985
          Sergey985 22 March 2018 13: 16
          0
          Where did he fight? Enlighten pzhlst.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 24 March 2018 05: 34
            0
            Quote: Sergey985
            Where did he fight? Enlighten

            https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_F-5
      4. Conserp
        Conserp April 6 2018 12: 08
        +1
        Quote: Horst78
        "Gripen" in its class is in my opinion the best.

        Because he is in his class - alone against one Chinese?

        With what to compare it - with the MiG-21 and the old Mirages? Only JF-17 / FC-1 in the same weight category and more or less contemporary.
    2. Artek
      Artek 22 March 2018 18: 18
      +1
      and flu is a griffin or something? Maybe flu?
    3. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 22 March 2018 19: 29
      +3
      Quote: K0
      If someone else is interested in the question - is “Gripen E” a competitor to our Su-57, then the answer depends on the conditions of the problem.
      Well, yes ... if you look at the conditions of the problem, then the MiG-29 is a competitor and the F-16. the main thing is to formulate the problem correctly))

      In the history of air battles of the Second World War there is such a case - the Soviet ace Safonov shot down 16 Messerschmitts in his air battle on his i-21 (it seems 3 episodes). So, guessing who will win in one air battle, it just does not make sense. And in the big long war, probably all the same SU-57
    4. asr55
      asr55 9 November 2020 16: 08
      0
      Quote: K0
      If someone else is interested in the question - is “Gripen E” a competitor to our Su-57, then the answer depends on the conditions of the problem.
      Well, yes ... if you look at the conditions of the problem, then the MiG-29 is a competitor and the F-16. the main thing is to formulate the problem correctly))

      It is interesting how to formulate the problem of competition between fighters of different classes and capabilities?
  2. Razvedka_Boem
    Razvedka_Boem 22 March 2018 06: 01
    +4
    Some SAAB cars have a driver's seat like a fighter cockpit ..) Especially if you turn on the dashboard lights.
    1. Horst78
      Horst78 22 March 2018 06: 09
      +6
      It is a pity that the shop was closed.
      1. Santa Fe
        22 March 2018 06: 48
        +5
        Quote: Razvedka_Boem
        Some SAAB cars have a driver's seat like a fighter cockpit ..) Especially if you turn on the dashboard lights.

        I agree.

        was somehow saabchik 9-5, speedometer - exactly as artificial horizon
        the scale moves up and down

        Quote: Horst78
        It is a pity that the shop was closed.

        Honestly not really, cars Saab full trash
        1. Pivot
          Pivot 22 March 2018 14: 52
          +10
          I had a 9-3 Vigen in Sweden working on an A85 machine, plugging any Subaru in my belt. And the Saab cars were great, they just didn’t need the GM concern that destroyed the brand, they sold the plant to the Chinese and there is no brand. So do not say nonsense.
          1. Santa Fe
            23 March 2018 08: 08
            +5
            Quote: Pivot
            Saab cars were

            a) unreliable
            b) ugly

            The rest - the taste and color
            1. Pivot
              Pivot 24 March 2018 16: 02
              +4
              Again nonsense. The car had charisma, and in terms of reliability, the car, like all Swedish cars, was not inferior to classmates. This I say as the owner of the Saab.
          2. asr55
            asr55 9 November 2020 16: 19
            0
            SAAB (s) were normal only new, constant problems with the chain and gearbox and steering ...
        2. SEER
          SEER 22 August 2018 15: 34
          0
          Quote: Santa Fe
          was somehow saabchik 9-5, speedometer - exactly as artificial horizon
          the scale moves up and down

          9-5 II MY 2010-2011
          Quote: Horst78
          It is a pity that the shop was closed.

          Quote: Santa Fe
          Honestly not really, cars Saab full trash

          you just don’t know how to cook them :-)
          although 9-5 II MY 2010-2011 itself is more Opel than SAAB, the Jerk and ECU are pure Opel, the interior is Opel.
          from SAAB Epsilon II platform itself, all-wheel drive system and automatic transmission selection.
          and all this "honestly" grabbed GM (General Murderer) and used an Opel.
    2. Huumi
      Huumi 22 March 2018 21: 07
      +4
      My dream is to buy a SAAB, everyone who drives them says that after them they don’t even sit on a BMW, a very reliable and high-quality car, well done Swedes, they keep their line and honor their traditions in aircraft manufacturing
      1. Pivot
        Pivot 22 March 2018 22: 56
        +3
        The car is fire, we have very few living specimens.
        1. Huumi
          Huumi 23 March 2018 08: 21
          +1
          There are some seasoned ones who say that it’s necessary to look at the turbine, we are sold in the northwest, but by the definition of maaaalo in general ...
      2. d1975
        d1975 22 March 2018 23: 00
        +1
        Add words - were! All Max cars are designed for 150 thousand kilometers, oddly enough, foreign cars. if spare parts r ............................. oh, at least call the gelding, at least fret, all one - a bucket of bolts!
        1. SEER
          SEER 22 August 2018 15: 40
          0
          Quote: d1975
          Add words - were! All Max cars are designed for 150 thousand kilometers, oddly enough, foreign cars. if spare parts r ............................. oh, at least call the gelding, at least fret, all one - a bucket of bolts!

          first Saab: 9-5 3.0t "Griffin" MY1999 was sold with ~ 270t.km. and has been running after me for 9 years under a different owner.
          second Saab: 9-5 2.3T "Aero" MY2008 and now under me, eleventh year already :-)
      3. Santa Fe
        23 March 2018 08: 13
        +6
        Quote: Huumi
        everyone who drives them says that after them they won't even sit on a BMW, a very reliable and high-quality car

        Of course they will not sit down. BMW, in terms of reliability, a piece of go * on
        Very expensive piece. However, a spectacular appearance (inside BMW - an amateur, a very primitive interior compared to a Mercedes)

        ps / reliable car - look for it among samurai
        1. Pivot
          Pivot 24 March 2018 16: 05
          +1
          The right wheel is now very expensive, and the rest is Turkey or the Russian Federation. Pseudo-samurai is self-deception.
  3. AntiFREEZ
    AntiFREEZ 22 March 2018 06: 15
    0
    Unfortunately for the Swedes, F404 / F414 is not enough ............... a single-engine “Falcon” is equipped with engines of a different order (its F100 gives out 13 tons in afterburner; with a dry weight of 1,7 tons).

    A logical question arose: what prevents the Swedes from buying this very F100?
    1. Santa Fe
      22 March 2018 06: 49
      +2
      Quote: AntiFREEZ
      and what prevents the Swedes to buy this very F100?

      Will not fit. Too big and heavy for Gripen
  4. tlauicol
    tlauicol 22 March 2018 06: 18
    +14


    Gripen is an airplane designed for war, not for demonstrations. Not the best car in the world, but not a whipping boy
  5. The comment was deleted.
  6. Sancho_SP
    Sancho_SP 22 March 2018 07: 52
    +7
    Yes, it’s just that this plane is not intended for war with an equal opponent, or even for war in general.

    They will be bought either by those who plan to use the air force only against very weak opponents, or those who are not going to fight at all, but only for the sake of the plan have plans to "cause unacceptable damage to the aggressor." Well, it’s just that Sweden itself does not seriously plan any wars, even against the backdrop of paranoid hysteria about the Russian threat.
    1. chingachguc
      chingachguc 22 March 2018 12: 39
      +6
      here two concepts collide. One is the creation of a super-expensive sandy airplane, the second is the creation of a simple mass cheap aircraft. The USSR won the Second World War, relying on cheap weapons.
      1. 11 black
        11 black 22 March 2018 13: 59
        +6
        Quote: chingachguc
        here two concepts collide. One is the creation of a super-expensive sandy airplane, the second is the creation of a simple mass cheap aircraft. The USSR won the Second World War, relying on cheap weapons.

        Based on a balance of price and quality, the USSR won it.
  7. podgornovea
    podgornovea 22 March 2018 08: 07
    +3
    An ideal ship fighter for an air defense carrier could be washed out of flu. The most compact in its class, the lightest, respectively, with minimal fuel consumption, with minimal maintenance, a small long take-off run. Make a folding wing, strengthen the landing gear, add a brake hook, and a very good plane would be for small aircraft carriers. Yes, and for Kuzi, instead of MiG-29, he would do, together with Su-33 in a bunch, he would also allow to increase the air group. In the USSR, developed ultra-light fighters but did not have time :(
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 22 March 2018 08: 28
      +4
      Given that the range requirements for decks are much higher, this is not even funny.
      1. Santa Fe
        22 March 2018 09: 04
        +3
        "Gripen" and "Hornet" have the same combat radius

        And so what happened -
        Gripen M: proposed version based on Gripen NG based media. [362] [73] As of 2011, the year continued its development. Since 2013, Brazil and India [248] have been interested. This version has also been named “Sea Influenza”. [363] or "Gripen Maritime". In July 2017, the Brazilian Navy began to study the Saab Gripen for naval purposes, sending an attache to the Brazilian Air Force. Brazilian Navy intends to replace its fleet of Douglas A-4 Skyhawk aircraft
        1. EvilLion
          EvilLion 22 March 2018 12: 47
          +3
          And let's not tell tales. The Hornet is much larger and has a very large mass fraction of fuel. In fuel, he even stands out in his class. It is for the sake of increasing range that very large aircraft like the Su-27 are being built.
      2. podgornovea
        podgornovea 23 March 2018 07: 01
        0
        For an air defense carrier - not in the eyes? To cover the Mediterranean squadron of the USSR is much worse than the Yak-38 would be?
    2. Andrey VOV
      Andrey VOV 22 March 2018 09: 01
      0
      A plane for the Russian Navy from a NATO ally country ?????? What are you talking about ??
    3. Sergey985
      Sergey985 22 March 2018 13: 27
      0
      Well, explain this to the Americans, who remained on their aircraft carriers without heavy fighters. Super Hornets turned out to be a completely different equivalent. And you fantasize about super-light cars. And about the development of the USSR in this direction, if possible, then in more detail.
      1. podgornovea
        podgornovea 23 March 2018 07: 04
        0
        С-54 / С-55 / С-56 google help
  8. EvilLion
    EvilLion 22 March 2018 08: 44
    +7
    In fact, according to LTX, Gripen is inferior in general to all who can. In its dimension, you can make an almost minimal fighter (OK FC-1 even smaller, but it’s very bottom in terms of equipment and performance characteristics), which will also have a radar, a gun, possibly an OLS, 7-9 suspension units and accelerate to a couple of thousand km / h, guaranteed to cope with any non-fighter, but even the F-15 against him will have the freedom of choice in imposing a battle, out of the battle and pursuing. This is the main problem of small fighters, you can fire at the enemy during rapprochement, you can shoot down in close combat, since the single-engine engines have one advantage over heavy loads, they have a higher angular roll speed. But if something happens, give an afterburner and run away will not work. And delaying the battle threatens to lose the car from a lack of fuel. All full-fledged 5 generation fighters like the F-16 and Mirage-2000 started with an empty weight in 7.5 tons.
    1. Santa Fe
      22 March 2018 09: 16
      +7
      Quote: EvilLion
      In fact, according to LTH, Gripen is generally inferior to anyone you can.

      Not obvious. For example, Gripen is guaranteed to surpass American F-16
      Quote: EvilLion
      but even the F-15 against him will have the freedom to choose to impose the battle, get out of the battle and prosecute.

      Why did it happen?
      "Gripen" is easier. Fuel reserve is less. because he has one engine
      ng
      For example, the combat radius of Gripen NG corresponds to any 4 + and 5 fighter of the generation

      Quote: EvilLion
      All high-grade 5 generation fighters like the F-16

      Hahaha
      Is it that could not (and cannot) maneuver at angles of attack over 10 degrees?
      And before the advent of the Block 40 could fly only during the day and could not use any precision weapons
      Quote: EvilLion
      Mirage-2000 began with an empty weight in 7.5 t.

      His combat load is greater on 1,5 tons, while the Mirage engine is heavier on 40% (almost 400 kg), and developed less thrust (after all, the plane was created in 1970-e.)
      And it was created a decade earlier, when electronics blocks were hoisted by crane
      1. EvilLion
        EvilLion 22 March 2018 13: 07
        +5
        F-16 maneuverability does not differ at all. F / A-18, for example, surpasses it in this totally, and apparently that's why the “Blue Angels” fly exactly on the 18's.

        Why did it happen?
        Gripen is easier. The fuel reserve is less. because he has one engine


        Since he is very small. You understand such an elementary thing, there is such a thing as the equation of existence of an aircraft. According to it, it turns out that for airplanes with approximately the same LTX, the mass fraction of individual nodes is approximately the same. But if the size of the aircraft increases, then the mass fraction of the same cockpit with the pilot will fall. Because the cabin, it is practically the same on the Su-27 and the "flu". Around the same gun. How much does GS-30-1 weigh there? 50 kg 150 shells, somewhere else 150 kg, total 200 kg. 200 kg from 15, 20 and 30 tons of take-off weight have a different share. And the smaller the share of general aircraft equipment like radio stations, the more remains on fuel and combat load. A "flu" is a cabin with a motor and wings. He has a ferry range with a PTB 3200 km. Without PTB, it is doubtful that it will reach 2000 km, rather 1500, and with weapons, the real combat radius will not exceed 500 km.

        And what has one engine to do with it, I don't see any logic at all, one engine from the point of view of flight performance is just an advantage (if it doesn't stall in flight), the F-35 has one engine, but it carries fuel almost like the Su-27, obviously, so as not to hang up unmasking PTB. => All stealths are very large, no less than the F-22 and Su-57, the F-35 is already sinking heavily in thrust.

        And it was created a decade earlier, when electronics blocks were hoisted by crane


        Everything does not change quickly in the military commissariat, and the electronics there are now designed for hammer blows.
  9. sib.ataman
    sib.ataman 22 March 2018 08: 59
    +9
    Well, Kaptsov, well, and a sly one! And he was well aware of the duality of his judgments, he blamed the readers on the need to draw conclusions for themselves to avoid the habitual scolding for very controversial material! The material is now more than controversial! To begin with, Sweden is a neutral country and not a trendsetter in the aviation market. Therefore, he can afford to interpret at least the 5th or 10th generation as she pleases, and show off in his own way! Their flupenes do not compete in the world market with either the Amerz or our planes, apparently because the concepts are different!
    And secondly, no one spoke out that their JAS is full of junk! Just compared the characteristics! Of course, on paper one thing, but in life and in battle, it’s completely different. Modern combat is a component of many components, and which one is decisive will be shown by life, or real combat. By the way, something I did not meet at all mention of the real participation of these Fluppen in air battles? Looked at something? Looks like they are participating so much!
    Cunning, Kaptsov! You are more suited to the style of complete conspiracy theological search and analysis, with a twisting of the polarity of established judgments!
    1. Santa Fe
      22 March 2018 09: 20
      +2
      It is interesting to hear your opinion. For the future I will consider hi
  10. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 22 March 2018 09: 08
    +7
    "The first to discover danger."

    But with this - a major puncture negative . If he’s not “stealth,” and the opponent is “stealth,”
    then with the same radars, the stealth will notice you much earlier.
    With all the unpleasant consequences that follow. sad
    1. DM51
      DM51 22 March 2018 09: 20
      +4
      Quote: voyaka uh
      "The first to discover danger."

      But with this - a major puncture negative . If he’s not “stealth,” and the opponent is “stealth,”
      then with the same radars, the stealth will notice you much earlier.
      With all the unpleasant consequences that follow. sad

      How to notice with binoculars? To notice you need a turned on radar, that is, you need to fly with a turned on radar until the radar detects a target, and then another missile, so: as soon as the radar is in stealth, in fact there is no
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 22 March 2018 11: 12
        +8
        Aircraft do not fight one on one.
        With the radar turned on at full power (for early detection)
        one plane is flying. Which passes discovered targets to other stealth
        in which the radar is in passive mode and which the enemy does not see.
        They fire long-range explosives, not including their radars.
        Understood ?: some suggest, others shoot.
        1. chingachguc
          chingachguc 22 March 2018 12: 42
          0
          here the question is, of course, which is better: one super-expensive plane in the air, or three or four unpretentious? Who will win?
          1. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 22 March 2018 12: 53
            +11
            3-4 simple pilots sit 3-4.
            The price of operation is 3-4 simple ones (fuel, ammunition,
            pilot training) are likely to exceed the same rates
            super expensive. With a dubious result of 3-4 in battle.
            You can give a stupid example: 3-4 men with crowbars
            specific individual training and clever tactics
            have a chance to score one man with Kalash.
            But it is unlikely that anyone will begin to prepare such killer killer-team "Lomoviks."
            Still open the wallet and buy Kalash smile .
            1. chingachguc
              chingachguc 22 March 2018 13: 19
              0
              Well, Grippen is far from scrap)) the missiles are one of the best in the world)) As for operation, there is also one Grippen departure, which is half as much as the F-15)) for a long time, military equipment manufacturers have no feedback, that is, they have no combat and therefore cannot draw the right conclusions. For the most part, it's all fantasy. In a large-scale conflict, I am sure that many concepts will turn into dust, as well as many of the most modern weapons systems))
              1. chingachguc
                chingachguc 22 March 2018 13: 26
                0
                In addition, I am sure of the following: 1. A large-scale conflict of nuclear powers without the use of nuclear weapons is possible - a conflict with limited goals, not involving the physical destruction of the enemy. 2. This conflict can be protracted when opponents mutually undermine each other's potentials, and the confrontation can develop into a positional war. In this case, the requirement for weapons, manning armies, etc. will be completely different.
              2. voyaka uh
                voyaka uh 22 March 2018 14: 25
                +3
                I like gripen too. Nimble light fighter. Before the proposed upgrades, it was like a slightly simplified F-16. But, as you rightly noted, twice as cheap as the F-15.
                How much will his upgrades cost? Unknown
                1. Huumi
                  Huumi 22 March 2018 21: 17
                  0
                  I always read your comments carefully and clearly and informatively. Thank you
        2. DM51
          DM51 22 March 2018 13: 31
          +2
          Quote: voyaka uh
          Aircraft do not fight one on one.
          With the radar turned on at full power (for early detection)
          one plane is flying. Which passes discovered targets to other stealth
          in which the radar is in passive mode and which the enemy does not see.
          They fire long-range explosives, not including their radars.
          Understood ?: some suggest, others shoot.

          That is, the F-35 can not fight without an external control unit, otherwise its stealth will be covered with a copper basin? Again, there is electronic warfare and when a group of Gripins is exposed to radiation, the pilots will clearly understand that the enemy is not alone. I wrote this so that you understand that the vaunted stealth is not a panacea, otherwise you like to exalt the stealth like a miracle weapon. Stealth is just one of the components of combat effectiveness, and not the most important
          1. Sergey985
            Sergey985 22 March 2018 13: 47
            +1
            We are talking about the tactics of using stealth aircraft. Warrior Wow described everything correctly.
          2. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 22 March 2018 14: 28
            +4
            "then the pilots will clearly understand that the enemy is not alone." ///

            Well, they will understand. ...and? Cross on the icon in the cockpit? stop All the same, they will not see.
            Until you see, you can’t shoot. And he himself is already under fire.
            1. DM51
              DM51 22 March 2018 18: 07
              +1
              Quote: voyaka uh
              "then the pilots will clearly understand that the enemy is not alone." ///

              Well, they will understand. ...and? Cross on the icon in the cockpit? stop All the same, they will not see.
              Until you see, you can’t shoot. And he himself is already under fire.

              But why did you get it that you won’t see it, because Lockheed Martin and the Pentagon do it in advertising leaflets? laughing Now many things are opening their eyes; they said that Zamvolt is invisible, since he is stealth and can go alone wherever he wants, destroying everything around him, and now it’s clear that he has nowhere to go without a warrant, and indeed he’s an extra element in the US Navy, they said that the T-90 - the last rubbish, but in the end exactly, but vice versa - the Abrams and Leopards disgraced themselves on the BV, said that Russia is behind in the arms hopelessly from the USA, and we have the Vanguard, Dagger, a combat laser, a missile defense system with a nuclear weapon, an underwater drone and more something the president did not say. I'm not a jingoistic patriot, but I don’t believe the advertisement of the Pentagon either
              1. voyaka uh
                voyaka uh 22 March 2018 22: 49
                +1
                “Yes, where did you get the idea that you won’t see it, because Lockheed Martin is in the advertising leaflets” ///

                Lockheed's ad was relevant when the F-35 was being developed. And today he takes part in exercises involving a variety of air defense and other types of aircraft.
                And its stealth is checked by the military against real air defense radars deployed on the ground. And against real aircraft radars in the air. And she - stealth - is confirmed. In Israel, in particular, there are all types of air defense radars produced by us, including old USSR radars and simulated copies of Russian radars. So the TTX of Lockheed is no longer on paper, but in iron checked.
                1. DM51
                  DM51 22 March 2018 23: 34
                  +2
                  Quote: voyaka uh
                  “Yes, where did you get the idea that you won’t see it, because Lockheed Martin is in the advertising leaflets” ///

                  Lockheed's ad was relevant when the F-35 was being developed. And today he takes part in exercises involving a variety of air defense and other types of aircraft.
                  And its stealth is checked by the military against real air defense radars deployed on the ground. And against real aircraft radars in the air. And she - stealth - is confirmed. In Israel, in particular, there are all types of air defense radars produced by us, including old USSR radars and simulated copies of Russian radars. So the TTX of Lockheed is no longer on paper, but in iron checked.

                  Oppochki! Accurate radar copies of the S-400, 9C36M (Buk M3), H035 Irbis (SU-35), not to mention the SU-57 radar, probably the Defense Ministry of the Russian Federation shared secret equipment according to the kindness of the soul or by the personal order of the Guarantor, well ? But Pierre Spray disagrees with you, and he, I think, knows more than everyone here sitting in VO. I want to convey to you the idea that superiority over the enemy cannot be achieved by one thing only - this is a complex of components and stealth is only one of them, and not the most important one, it can be clearly seen in Pierre's words. Is the idea clear?
                  1. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine 24 March 2018 05: 46
                    +1
                    Quote: DM51
                    But Pierre Spray disagrees with you, and he, I think, knows more than everyone sitting here

                    Pierre Spray, as far as I know his position, drowns for a cannon battle fighter. From this it follows that grandfather survived from the mind, that's all (either he loves money too much, but it does not fit in with his line of argument. Boeing silent needles are the same penguin, only in a different building). If a person did reasonable things 50 years ago, this does not make him infallible.
                    1. DM51
                      DM51 28 March 2018 18: 11
                      0
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Quote: DM51
                      But Pierre Spray disagrees with you, and he, I think, knows more than everyone sitting here

                      Pierre Spray, as far as I know his position, drowns for a cannon battle fighter. From this it follows that grandfather survived from the mind, that's all (either he loves money too much, but it does not fit in with his line of argument. Boeing silent needles are the same penguin, only in a different building). If a person did reasonable things 50 years ago, this does not make him infallible.

                      Gun battle? Are there any links, proofs?
            2. DM51
              DM51 22 March 2018 18: 46
              +1
              Quote: voyaka uh
              "then the pilots will clearly understand that the enemy is not alone." ///

              Well, they will understand. ...and? Cross on the icon in the cockpit? stop All the same, they will not see.
              Until you see, you can’t shoot. And he himself is already under fire.

              The icon is called EW and will not cross, and they will press the button, they will launch 2-4 long-range missiles, one will hit the emitting plane, and the rest will also find targets, especially if they have a thermal seeker
        3. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I 22 March 2018 14: 38
          +2
          Quote: voyaka uh
          one plane is flying. Which passes discovered targets to other stealth
          in which the radar is in passive mode and which the enemy does not see.
          They fire long-range explosives, not including their radars.

          Urya! It worked! Well, really, P-500Basalt, or P-700 And they also say that our ideas were not stolen! wink
      2. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 24 March 2018 00: 07
        +1
        Quote: DM51
        To notice you need a turned on radar, that is, you need to fly with a turned on radar until the radar detects a target, and then another missile, so: as soon as the radar is in stealth, in fact there is no

        Not everything is so simple. The F-22 locator has an operation mode resembling noise (the operating frequency constantly jumps). The target detection range drops significantly, but nevertheless, the aircraft’s locator is working, and it’s difficult to determine that the locator is working, and not just interference on the air.
    2. AntiFREEZ
      AntiFREEZ 22 March 2018 10: 47
      0
      Quote: voyaka uh
      then with the same radars

      What if the radar is better?
      The author clearly hinted at an avionics competition.
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 22 March 2018 11: 17
        +1
        And if the radar is better (like the rest of avionics), then the plane
        cannot be cheap and hence competitive in the market.
        Good avionics - more than 50% of the cost of a combat aircraft.
        And then, why is Gripen? not the 5th generation, where problems of stealth
        (and therefore secrecy) resolved thoroughly.
  11. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 22 March 2018 10: 30
    +1
    "The Swedes have their own idea of ​​the 5 generation ..." Great! Do not complex in front of the US "vision" (or "vision? what )! And before the Indian wink ! And what? “As you call a yacht, it’ll sail ...” that is, in Swedish: “as you call a flu, you’ll fly it!” You can even demand a "continuation of the banquet"! Su-35 aircraft 4 ++? Bullshit it! Now it will be an "excellent student" -5-ka him! MiG-35? To be sad! All according to the "concepts"!
    1. chingachguc
      chingachguc 22 March 2018 12: 43
      0
      if the Swedes had the opportunity to build a fifth-generation aircraft - do you think they would bother with this?
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 22 March 2018 14: 45
        +2
        Quote: chingachguc
        if the Swedes had the opportunity to build a fifth-generation aircraft - do you think they would bother with this?

        What is it with this? With "Gripen" E? By the way, ... "Gripen" NG has been known for a long time ... It turns out that "Gripen" E is a "Gripen '' NG with a new American engine ....
  12. RL
    RL 22 March 2018 10: 58
    +3
    For tar, the concept of stealth is very relative. For a long time already passive detection systems for such aircraft have been in service. The principles of the operation of such detection systems, you probably know.
    I have the opportunity to observe the training battles of JAS-39 Gripen aircraft, which are armed with the army of the Czech Republic. Usually two planes try to tail one another. All such a "battle" takes place, literally, "on the spot" in all planes. This "patch" of honey, by the way, is very small. It seems that the planes revolve around themselves in one place. And this is without any markups, like a deviated thrust vector. So Gripen
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 22 March 2018 11: 42
      +4
      "Usually two planes try to tail one another.
      All such a "battle" occurs, literally, "on the spot" in all planes. "////

      This is beautiful for the audience, and will increase the skill of the pilots, of course.
      But there is little to do with fighting in the air.
      Firstly, there are all-taste explosive rockets (they can turn around in the air
      180 degrees and catch the target). He went in the tail - got such a rocket in the forehead. The rocket "Python-5" Czech Republic can buy.
      Secondly, almost all fighter disassemblies now occur at distances of 10–20 km (average distance).
      And sometimes more - a long distance. Some suggest, others shoot.
      Being able to spin in a dog dump is important. And Grypon is a good plane. But to build tactics on this is outdated.
      1. hohol95
        hohol95 22 March 2018 13: 07
        0
        They donate little money to fight Russian aggression! So get out!
      2. EvilLion
        EvilLion 22 March 2018 13: 11
        0
        Which is faster, a rocket directly into the nozzles, or some mythical rockets that must extinguish all the impulse given to them by the plane and turn on the 180 is not clear where, since the target behind is corny nothing to lead? If you have an enemy on your tail, then the trouble is that you simply do not see it.
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 22 March 2018 14: 33
          +4
          Why mythical? laughing
          Here it is, Python-5 has long been in service. Sold widely in the world.
        2. tlauicol
          tlauicol 22 March 2018 15: 00
          +3


          so 21st century in the yard
          1. EvilLion
            EvilLion 9 July 2018 01: 11
            0
            What does this have to do with an 180 turn? Capture in wide sectors is also on the P-73.
  13. Anchonsha
    Anchonsha 22 March 2018 11: 22
    +1
    Hee hee, why don't the Swedes compare their fighter with the American F-35? And you can’t just take and compare any two planes like this. All assessment will be given in a combat setting.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 22 March 2018 11: 55
      0
      Quote: Anchonsha
      Swedes do not compare their fighter with the American F-35

      Because the SU-57 does not exist, like the new Greenspan.
      1. Sands Careers General
        Sands Careers General 22 March 2018 19: 03
        +4
        This is how the "nonexistent Su-57" fly laughing
      2. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 24 March 2018 00: 19
        0
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        Because the SU-57 does not exist,

        Follow the news: 4th Su57 have already fought in Syria. Moreover, with very good efficiency.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 24 March 2018 05: 53
          +2
          Quote: Bad_gr
          follow the news

          I follow
          Quote: Bad_gr
          4th Su57 already managed to fight in Syria

          Two. What does "war" mean?
          Quote: Bad_gr
          Moreover, with very good efficiency.

          You, like me, know nothing about this.
          As for the Su-57, it seems that one of them is installed one a full-time engine, and on the other, they say, full-time avionics, or at least a radar. Fly, yes.
          1. Bad_gr
            Bad_gr 24 March 2018 11: 30
            0
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Two. What does "war" mean?

            Information on combat use is available on many sites. How true, I don’t know.
            Number of aircraft: first two flew in, and after a while two more.
            1. Bad_gr
              Bad_gr 24 March 2018 12: 13
              0
              Do not understand ?! Here was a link to information on the Su-57 in Syria. Why is it exchanged for another?
            2. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 24 March 2018 12: 16
              +1
              Quote: Bad_gr
              there are many sites. How true, I don’t know.

              Exactly.
              Quote: Bad_gr
              first two flew in, and after a while two more.

              No. There was evidence that two planes twice landed (on different days). There was no evidence that once saw 4 sides simultaneously.

              For your reference. From the point of view of the ability to conduct air combat, the key is the presence of the A-50, and not fighters. The air battle for 40 years (from the "Medvedka") has been going on according to the scheme: AWACS are shining - the fighters are damaging. If there is no AWACS in Syria, an incident with large ones (Turkey, Israel, the American coalition) is completely excluded. They will sweep away.
              1. Bad_gr
                Bad_gr 24 March 2018 13: 49
                0
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                From the point of view of the ability to conduct air combat, the key is the presence of the A-50,

                I think that the Su-57 was attracted to Syria not for aerial combat, but for night bombing. As in due time, in Yugoslavia F-117.
                1. voyaka uh
                  voyaka uh 24 March 2018 23: 55
                  +1
                  To do this, he had to have the whole set of avionics ready: the sighting systems built into the radar for guiding and hitting targets on the ground. Complex systems.
                  I'm not sure that such systems are even planned on the Su-57. It is prepared for aerial combat, to gain air supremacy. And its stealth is at the front level, but not very for air defense of the earth.
                  1. EvilLion
                    EvilLion 9 July 2018 01: 15
                    0
                    That's why his compartments are so wide ... Who needs his stealth in intercept flights? But to put the bomb out of nowhere - here it is just right. Therefore, F-117 and built.
                    1. Butchcassidy
                      Butchcassidy 9 July 2018 18: 56
                      +1
                      Quote: EvilLion
                      Therefore, the F-117 and built.

                      Therefore, they wrote off that this stealth-bucket-with-nut endurance in a real battle did not pass. They were actually written off based on the results of the war in Yugoslavia, when it turned out that trained personnel on fairly old air defense systems were able to shoot down these prodigies worth 111 million dead raccoons. And he actually could not fulfill his real task - covert penetration through the air defense system.

                      In Iraq, the F-117 did not “fight” at all, but simply flew, everything was decided there as in Eastern wisdom: they took the “fortress” through a donkey loaded with gold when they bribed all Iraqi generals and the troops remained in the barracks. This is subject to the overwhelming technological superiority of coalition forces.
              2. EvilLion
                EvilLion 9 July 2018 01: 14
                0
                Do they know in the air force? And radars on fighters then why?
  14. NEXUS
    NEXUS 22 March 2018 12: 32
    +6
    If someone else is interested in the question, is “Gripen E” a competitor to our Su-57

    Not interested, maybe it's cars of different classes. And Grippen is more correct to compare with the MIG-35, and not with the 57th.
    1. NN52
      NN52 22 March 2018 21: 05
      +12
      NEXUS

      It’s not necessary to be clever. It is not correct to compare it with the MiG 35 from the word at all. Are you overheated there?
      Or again, new shoulder straps hit you in the head again?
      And here is the MiG 35?
      My advice to you, do not make comments on aviation topics ... You will look smarter ...
      Comment on chess, master of sports, damn it ...
      1. NEXUS
        NEXUS 22 March 2018 21: 13
        +4
        Quote: NN52
        It’s not necessary to be clever.

        Rude is not necessary. Or did the borzometer roll over and rip off the valve?
        Quote: NN52
        Or again, new shoulder straps hit you in the head again?

        You didn’t play enough in childhood?
        Quote: NN52
        And here is the MiG 35?

        Further conversation is meaningless. There is no desire even to answer.
        All the best to you.
        1. NN52
          NN52 22 March 2018 22: 07
          +12
          NEXUS

          It is with you that the conversation does not make sense.
          As for the epaulette, I hope you understand, you're not so stupid ..
          I have not been rude to you.
          And about the borzometer ... Then you will find out ...
          1. NEXUS
            NEXUS 22 March 2018 22: 11
            +4
            Quote: NN52
            It is with you that the conversation does not make sense.

            That's right ... finally it dawned on you.
            Quote: NN52
            I have not been rude to you.

            Quote: NN52
            Are you overheated there?

            Quote: NN52
            You’ll look smarter ...

            Rest.
            Quote: NN52
            And about the borzometer ... Then you will find out ...

            No problem.
            1. NN52
              NN52 22 March 2018 23: 15
              +11
              Nexus, you’re a smart guy, though.

              Can I post correspondence here?

              You have no brains ..

              1. NEXUS
                NEXUS 22 March 2018 23: 16
                +4
                Quote: NN52
                Can I post correspondence here?

                Forward.
                1. NN52
                  NN52 22 March 2018 23: 18
                  +10
                  I say no brains ...
                  1. NEXUS
                    NEXUS 22 March 2018 23: 20
                    +5
                    Quote: NN52
                    I say no brains ...

                    To talk about the lack of brains of anyone, make sure that you have them.
                2. NN52
                  NN52 22 March 2018 23: 20
                  +10
                  Correspondence is not with you ...
                  And for you ...
                  1. NEXUS
                    NEXUS 22 March 2018 23: 23
                    +5
                    Quote: NN52
                    Correspondence is not with you ...
                    And for you ...

                    Wake up. And do not provoke ... what kind of pilot are you? This is not how pilots behave.
                    1. NN52
                      NN52 22 March 2018 23: 36
                      +10
                      Received mail ???
                      1. NN52
                        NN52 22 March 2018 23: 37
                        +8
                        Can you apologize?
                    2. Pete mitchell
                      Pete mitchell 23 March 2018 00: 09
                      +5
                      Quote: NEXUS
                      Wake up. Do not need .

                      It’s wildly interesting to me, and who are you to judge who is which pilot, and specifically Polst II? You can throw off the “speed” and look around, before opening your mouth
                      1. NEXUS
                        NEXUS 23 March 2018 00: 37
                        +5
                        Quote: Pete Mitchell
                        You can throw off the “speed” and look around, before opening your mouth

                        Turnover should be thrown off by one who is rude without seeing the shores. At the same time, poking in the face with his nobility. And what is the name of such a person? I have many friends of pilots who see the coast and understand the word politeness. And you yourself would not hurt to look around and hold on to your rudeness.
                      2. Pete mitchell
                        Pete mitchell 23 March 2018 01: 30
                        +4
                        NEXUS,
                        You still did not answer the question: who are you to dispute what kind of pilot he is? I doubt that you are familiar with the same number of pilots as Polst Two. High, virtual, epaulettes is not a reason to refer to dating.
                      3. NEXUS
                        NEXUS 23 March 2018 14: 04
                        +3
                        Quote: Pete Mitchell
                        High, virtual, epaulettes is not a reason to refer to dating

                        Dear, you apparently also did not play enough in childhood, since you are seriously discussing “high shoulder straps”. And then shoulder straps?
                        Quote: Pete Mitchell
                        who are you to dispute what kind of pilot he is?

                        I see how a person behaves and how he positions himself. I will say more, a person, instead of expressing his point of view on the topic, began to be rude, showing his nobility, which, in his opinion, apparently gives him the right to be rude. Such people are not interesting to me. And as for the pilots, I have friends-pilots who are cultural people with whom you can and normally discuss something and argue, without going to rudeness and dirty tricks.
                        For this, I think our discussion is over.
                        All the best to you. hi
  15. chingachguc
    chingachguc 22 March 2018 12: 37
    0
    for poor countries a good solution. Russia also lacks a cheap small plane. MiGs are too heavy.
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 22 March 2018 13: 12
      +1
      God forbid us from small planes and huge expenses for their maintenance ...
      1. chingachguc
        chingachguc 22 March 2018 13: 30
        0
        and does Grippen have high maintenance costs?
    2. Sergey985
      Sergey985 22 March 2018 13: 38
      +2
      Cheap small plane: no radar, low thrust-to-weight ratio, scanty combat load, small combat radius. And who needs it like that ??? And most importantly: what tasks can he perform ??? And what does the phrase “MiGs are too heavy” mean?
      1. chingachguc
        chingachguc 22 March 2018 13: 54
        0
        Migi heavy in comparison with this plane ... the less weight - the cheaper the operation. A massive balanced plane (like any equipment) can become a weapon of victory, and the super-duper will be in the cold. Everyone wants to win quickly, with little blood and on foreign territory. But history tells us that these hopes crumble to dust over and over again
        1. Sergey985
          Sergey985 22 March 2018 14: 15
          +2
          There is no direct relationship (except for fuel consumption). And why is the MiG-35 not balanced? The weight and dimensions of the aircraft are determined based on customer specifications for performance characteristics.
          1. chingachguc
            chingachguc 22 March 2018 14: 18
            0
            and then the requirements are adjusted ... and the price ... and always up
        2. Conserp
          Conserp April 6 2018 12: 27
          +1
          Quote: chingachguc
          Migi heavy in comparison with this plane ... the less weight - the cheaper the operation. A massive balanced plane (like any equipment) can become a weapon of victory, and the super-duper will be in the cold.

          This "massive and balanced" Gripen for some reason costs more than the Su-35, with combat effectiveness at the level of the upgraded MiG-21.
    3. Sands Careers General
      Sands Careers General 22 March 2018 19: 00
      +5
      Oh well, 29 and 35 Mig light fighters. Already a little "Dryers." Yes, and Migi are cheaper than the Swede.
  16. Wolka
    Wolka 22 March 2018 13: 02
    +1
    in Syria, a little bird fly weakly, everything would be decided there ...
  17. shuravi
    shuravi 22 March 2018 14: 51
    +3
    Interestingly, but does the author himself even understand what he writes?
    Example:
    c) meeting the requirements of the “stealth” technology due to the parallelism of the edges of the trapezoidal wing and the reduction of the EPR in the lateral projection due to the collapse of the keels;

    Or so, a certain sequence of smart words?
    fool
    1. Sergey985
      Sergey985 22 March 2018 16: 05
      +1
      Especially about the lateral projection)))
  18. ydjin
    ydjin 22 March 2018 14: 56
    +3
    Some kind of theater of the absurd, a 5th generation fighter cannot have a thrust-weight ratio of less than 1 unit, over-the-air supersonic sound and also be cheap. The Swedes are just puffing!
  19. vvp2412
    vvp2412 22 March 2018 16: 39
    +1
    How long has Kaptsov started writing articles about airplanes?
    1. Sergey985
      Sergey985 22 March 2018 18: 53
      +4
      I look forward to an article on the advisability of booking aircraft. It will be interesting.
  20. boriz
    boriz 22 March 2018 18: 51
    +4
    Or didn’t I understand something?
    5th generation involves:
    - stealth,
    - afterburning supersonic.
    If the aircraft has a vertical tail and an external arms suspension, you can forget about stealth.
    The article diplomatically departed from the afterburning supersound, replacing it with a thunder about thrust-weight ratio.
    Not at all, this device is forced to ascertain the megalomania among the Swedes. 4 ++ at best.
    1. Savignon
      Savignon 22 March 2018 19: 47
      +1
      At best, 4 with only one plus sign. You also need to have a variable traction vector, but Gripen does not have it and never will. Yes, and how to make the right variable thrust vector on one engine is also unclear. This is only possible on two.
      1. RL
        RL 22 March 2018 20: 45
        +2
        And the Izuites, with the help of bonfires, proved to everyone that the sun revolves around the Earth
        1. Sergey985
          Sergey985 22 March 2018 22: 10
          +1
          So with the naked eye it can be seen that it (the sun) rises and sets. What other evidence is needed? laughing
      2. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 24 March 2018 00: 37
        +2
        Quote: Savignon
        Yes, and how to make the right variable thrust vector on one engine is also unclear. This is only possible on two.

        There are such engines. We, for example, the company "Salute" makes such (all-perspective),
        but they are relevant only on a single-engine aircraft, although ours put them on the MiG-35. On a twin-engine, it is quite enough to change the thrust vector of each engine in the same plane (as in the Su-30, Su-35 (makes Saturn)).

        The F-22 has an alternating thrust vector on the engines, but unlike our airplanes, where the nozzles rotate differently, the F-22 rotates synchronously: either both up, or both down
    2. Chief Officer
      Chief Officer April 3 2018 22: 49
      0
      Quote: boriz
      4 ++ at best.

      You flatter them!
  21. Sands Careers General
    Sands Careers General 22 March 2018 18: 57
    +6
    Something tells me that the Griffin will not be able to compete even with the MiG-29, and its performance characteristics are exaggerated. Only a real battle can show what the aircraft is capable of, namely this few countries have.

    The only thing you can praise is that very few countries make their own self-designed aircraft.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 24 March 2018 01: 31
      +1
      With which MiG 29 - there are many modifications, this latest Gripen JAS 39E / F surpasses the MiG 29CMT in combat radius and avionics.
      1. Chief Officer
        Chief Officer April 3 2018 22: 53
        +1
        Quote: Vadim237
        What an instant 29

        With anyone.
        Quote: Vadim237
        the latest Gripen JAS 39E / F surpasses the Mig 29CMT in combat radius and avionics.
        Getting under the stream of the 29th - begins to fall funny somersaulting ...
    2. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 13 May 2018 09: 52
      +1
      When the plane is half composed of imported spare parts. parts - it is difficult to call it designed independently
    3. Butchcassidy
      Butchcassidy 9 July 2018 18: 58
      +1
      Quote: Sands Career General
      Something tells me that the Griffin will not be able to compete even with the MiG-29, and its performance characteristics are exaggerated. Only a real battle can show what the aircraft is capable of, namely this few countries have.

      The only thing you can praise is that very few countries make their own self-designed aircraft.

      I agree that preserving the aviation industry is a serious task.
  22. Vladimir SHajkin
    Vladimir SHajkin 22 March 2018 19: 19
    0
    The art of cutting off obviously impracticable requirements, focusing on real tasks and opportunities.

    It is most important
  23. Comrade Kim
    Comrade Kim 22 March 2018 19: 27
    0
    Quote: Santa Fe
    Honestly not really, cars Saab full trash

    I agree, this is the same GM group (Opel, Caddilac, Buyik, Saab, Chevrolet, etc.), such constructive miscalculations were made and are allowed, and motorists then spend money on repairs.
    Opel Astra (until 2009) with automatic transmission: due to an engineering miscalculation (the joint between the internal combustion engine radiator and the automatic transmission radiator integrated in it is not sealed), the transmission and coolant are mixed, the result is the end of the automatic transmission.
    Caddilac CTC from a friend received a second automatic transmission for the same reason.
    So, that SAAB from birth is endowed with all the problems carefully generated by the curvature arms of GM.
    1. RL
      RL 22 March 2018 23: 07
      +3
      GM cranked engineers have created and are producing engines that fly civil aviation in Russia. Then the French Krivorukov, the Canadian Krivorukov, the American Krivorukov, the Austrian Krivorukov ...
    2. Vadim237
      Vadim237 24 March 2018 01: 44
      +1
      GM has another trouble related to the automatic transmission, the damper ring of the coupling 3 - 5 - R bursts and cuts the coupling body and hi box - this happens on all machines that have their "legendary" automatic transmission 6T30 / 40, they were put on the entire Chevrolet and Opel line with 2008. But the reason is simple - this automatic transmission was created when GM was almost dying, the engineers did not care, since most of them, at that time, were saddling in their suitcases, awaiting dismissal.
  24. Savignon
    Savignon 22 March 2018 19: 45
    +5
    Come on whistle who is better there Gripen or Su-57 the question is not worth it at all. Su-57 is a fundamentally different machine with a larger take-off weight. The Swedes are preparing for offensive battles, and ours are preparing for defensive battles. Although the Su-57 is an offensive weapon for gaining air supremacy, Sweden’s air is simply not going to be conquered. As for the Gripenov in Russian airspace, the S-300/400 missiles do not matter who flies there, Gripen or not Gripen.
    1. kan123
      kan123 23 March 2018 14: 47
      +1
      the Swedes will not have any defensive battles - they will surrender all blondes to headquarters and officer clubs - and all the rest - there simply will not be anything there - the lake will be there, a glass one.
  25. The comment was deleted.
  26. Usher
    Usher 23 March 2018 04: 24
    +3
    The concept of "survival" is the first.
    Lol with one engine?
  27. pavelty
    pavelty 23 March 2018 11: 05
    0
    "maintaining high maneuverability due to four-vortex aerodynamics"
    What kind of animal is four-vortex aerodynamics, the first time I hear such a thing?
  28. shuravi
    shuravi 23 March 2018 13: 35
    +4
    To the author of the article as an educational program:
  29. kan123
    kan123 23 March 2018 14: 45
    0
    well done Swedes, - finally, their slush in their boshki, managed to copy up the training UC - so after a hundred years, they will begin to rivet in a moment.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 24 March 2018 01: 46
      0
      This aircraft can already fight on equal terms with the Mig 35.
      1. NEXUS
        NEXUS 24 March 2018 14: 36
        +4
        Quote: Vadim237
        This aircraft can already fight on equal terms with the Mig 35.

        If you compare only the performance characteristics of fighters, then your statement is very controversial. And if the professionalism of pilots and their plaque are entered into this equation, then Gripen of early modifications is capable of quite successfully (not without problems) successfully fighting with the MIG-35, and vice versa, the MIG-29 with an ace in the cockpit, of early modifications, is able to withstand last modification of Gripen. The air battle itself is very variable. Remember the Vietnam Phantoms and MIGs confrontation, in which the MIG played the mattress well on paper, and in fact, the ratio is 1 to 2 in favor of our car (according to some reports, 1 to 3).
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 24 March 2018 20: 44
          0
          Then there was no long-range air-to-air missiles.
          1. NEXUS
            NEXUS 24 March 2018 20: 51
            +4
            Quote: Vadim237
            Then there was no long-range air-to-air missiles.

            Then there was a total superiority of mattresses in the air, and with all this, and despite the fact that our MIGs were easier armed and at some heights openly lost to the Phantoms, they all washed them.
            The concept of generations is very conditional, which zhurnalyugi introduced into everyday life. Say the same SU-35 is inferior to the lizard only in stealth, that before the radar there is still a lot of controversy whether the PFAR is inferior to AFAR ... but in real aerial combat, I would put it on our dryer ...
        2. Pete mitchell
          Pete mitchell 24 March 2018 22: 27
          +5
          Quote: NEXUS
          ..air combat value is very variable.

          "ingenious thought", but did the familiar pilots tell you that too?
          They did not prompt you to answer the questions posed?
        3. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 25 March 2018 11: 00
          0
          ". Remember the opposition of Phantoms and MIGs in Vietnam" ////

          Phantoms, due to legendary payload, Americans
          began to use in Vietnam as tactical bombers.
          The confrontation looked like this: Phantoms loaded with bombs,
          went on a mission - ground targets. And MiGs, clinging to the tops of the jungle
          for disguise, attacked them from below and shot down.
          When the Phantoms were without bombs, the MiGs had little chance. Yes, they did not get involved
          in such fights. The Americans had to come up with a special complex operation,
          to lure MiGs "on bait". Then several MiGs were shot down without loss.
          1. shuravi
            shuravi 25 March 2018 11: 25
            +2
            Quote: voyaka uh
            ". Remember the opposition of Phantoms and MIGs in Vietnam" ////

            Phantoms, due to legendary payload, Americans
            began to use in Vietnam as tactical bombers.
            The confrontation looked like this: Phantoms loaded with bombs,
            went on a mission - ground targets. And MiGs, clinging to the tops of the jungle
            for disguise, attacked them from below and shot down.
            When the Phantoms were without bombs, the MiGs had little chance. Yes, they did not get involved
            in such fights. The Americans had to come up with a special complex operation,
            to lure MiGs "on bait". Then several MiGs were shot down without loss.



            Here is a nonsense is not necessary. The MiG-15 and the MiG-17 had no chance against the phantom, and even at altitudes above average when the phantom was in the loading of the interceptor.
            At low altitudes, the old men torn the American in the tail and mane.
            Against 21, there was little shining in the phantom.
            1. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 25 March 2018 11: 32
              0
              "At low altitudes, the old men torn the American in the tail and mane" ////

              And when did the Phantoms go at low altitudes? smile
              Only when several tons of bombs were hung on them to hide from missile defense. Like fighters, they fought at height.
              Where MiGs did not climb. We are talking about the same thing.
              1. shuravi
                shuravi 25 March 2018 13: 13
                +2
                Quote: voyaka uh


                And when did the Phantoms go at low altitudes? smile
                Only when several tons of bombs were hung on them to hide from missile defense.


                That is, almost always.

                Where MiGs did not climb. We are talking about the same thing.


                And such a simple thought that the MiG-15, MiG-17 and F-4 does not come to mind the machines of different generations?
                1. voyaka uh
                  voyaka uh 25 March 2018 18: 29
                  0
                  MiGs - meant MiG-21.
                  F-4 Phantoms in Vietnam that in Israel quickly turned
                  in good tactical drummers. But they had to be covered on tasks
                  from enemy fighters.
                  The Americans had the F-5 as a light fighter, and Kfir (Mirage) in Israel. But F-5 Americans produced (for some reason) it is very small, they were not enough.
                  1. Pete mitchell
                    Pete mitchell 26 March 2018 02: 33
                    +4
                    Quote: voyaka uh
                    But F-5 Americans produced (for some reason) it is very small, they were not enough

                    Sorry, you missed something: F-5 is one of the most successful and massive aircraft in the world, it is a very modest company: F-5; F-4; MiG-23; MiG-21 and recently F-16 was added ..
                  2. shuravi
                    shuravi 28 March 2018 19: 29
                    +1
                    Quote: voyaka uh
                    MiGs - meant MiG-21.


                    So against the MiG-21 the phantom has no chance. Lesha, aviation is clearly not your topic.
  30. caiman
    caiman 24 March 2018 08: 29
    +1
    THE AUTHOR OF THE ARTICLE ON THE GO OF THE SUN THE HEAD IS DARK))) HERE TTX GRIPENA, THE TRUTH FROM WIKIPEDIA, BUT THE MACHINE IS NOT SECRET ALREADY, Maximum speed at high altitude: ~ 2200 km / h (M = 2,0)
    Combat radius: 800 km
    Practical ceiling: 15 240 m [48]
    Rate of climb: m / s 255
    Wing loading: 283 kg / m²
    Thrust-to-weight ratio: 0,97
    Maximum operational overload: −3 / + 9 g, AND THIS IS EVERYTHING SAID, to assert that this is not the main thing in a fighter can only well, very advanced experts))))),
  31. bosivanov
    bosivanov 25 March 2018 09: 58
    0
    Didn’t you understand that the main strength of Gripenov is a smart collective automated system of interaction, coordination and optimization of the group’s joint actions before and in battle. This distinguished Gripenov before. Big inventors, these Swedish socialists!
  32. rubin6286
    rubin6286 25 March 2018 13: 16
    +5
    I think, nevertheless, that in the overwhelming majority, the creators of aviation technology are people in their right mind and understanding that the design and performance characteristics of any aircraft are a compromise between the desired and the possible, they concentrate their efforts on achieving results that will maximize the performance of those tasks, for decisions which specific machine is intended.

    The main task of a fighter is to destroy enemy aircraft in the air in a certain range of speeds and altitudes, ensure victory in battle and gain air superiority. The components of victory are the high business and moral and psychological qualities of the pilot, the ability to maximize the full potential of the capabilities laid down in the design of the aircraft, and not just survive in battle.

    Structurally, the “Grofon” cannot be attributed to the 5th generation, but the desire of designers to maximize bring its characteristics to the F-22 and F-35 is understandable and understandable. Only in this case, the machine can be adopted in its own country and exported. Air combat techniques, which, according to Swedish experts, ensure survival in combat are not new at all. They are standard and are used in the air forces of many countries. If the aircraft as a whole corresponds to the 4 ++ generation, then the “highlight” of it will be the effectiveness of the weapons and avionics deployed on it.

    Let us assume that other countries have approximately such avionics and armaments. What will be the advantage of this aircraft against the rest. Probably in his bone structure. To conduct maneuverable air combat, the machine must have a high rate of climb. Its rate of climb directly depends on the thrust-weight ratio, i.e. the ratio of engine thrust to the weight of the loaded and fully equipped aircraft. The Swedish aircraft has one engine, the power of which is lower than the domestic ones, and the take-off weight is comparable to our MiG-29 and MiG-35. MiG engines, not to mention Sushki, are more powerful. and the superiority of the verticals Swede can be forgotten. Afterburner on supersonic is exotic and most likely, I think it is not needed, but I do not insist those authors of the comments that piloted air defense interceptors (Su-15, MiG-25,31) let me correct. Only, SAAB can have an advantage in a horizontal flight in a straight line, because it is somewhat lighter. The small geometric dimensions of the aircraft are, first of all, small tanks, which means a smaller radius of action. Supersound is a short-term mode, it is impossible to barrage on it. There is only one result when it comes to sound and sound, after a high-speed “jump” the engine power must be reduced so that it does not fall apart or explode.

    Any product in life is worth something. It’s beneficial for us. That the plane was expensive. Undoubtedly, “For themselves” they won’t buy a lot of expensive cars, the budget is not rubber. In order to be taken for export, you need to sell cheaper and, in addition, the “ground” must be “sharpened” for it, and this is a complication. There is a dominance of American, French and Russian technology. In my opinion. "Griffin" today is not a miracle of technology, but only
    " One of many".
    1. Pete mitchell
      Pete mitchell 26 March 2018 22: 02
      +4
      Properly, you have laid it out so much, many in VO should have read, as an educational program.
      If I may add: Grippen, 4th generation aircraft tailored for the tasks of a particular country. My friend had the opportunity to get acquainted and fly around the Swede and f-16, for comparison. The choice in favor of the Swede. It has many advantages: unpretentiousness, short preparation time for the second flight, one platform for all the main tasks - what you suspend, you will understand, good reliability, it is really a light fighter - it’s lighter -29 / -16. Well, the Swedish government offers a lot of sweets in addition.
      Worth the money
  33. glavnykarapuz
    glavnykarapuz 25 March 2018 13: 30
    0
    I did not expect an article about airplanes from Kaptsov.
    It was surprising that the author tried not to be biased and objective.
    Unfortunately, the accompanying completeness of knowledge on this topic made the author give out the whole article in general phrases, without going into details (which the author, as I already said, does not know). From this article is scarce and uninformative.
    Thanks to the author for trying.
  34. bosivanov
    bosivanov 26 March 2018 08: 17
    0
    Once again I insist that the strength of the Gripen is not in:

    “The components of victory are the high business and moral-psychological qualities of the pilot, the ability to maximize the full potential of the capabilities laid down in the design of the aircraft, and not just survive in battle." As, quite in Soviet style, it is written in one of the comments, but in:

    "- a network-centric data exchange system that allows Gripenov pilots to monitor the status of other planes of their combat group (weapon status, fuel quantity, warning of detected threats, distribution of targets in battle)." Not for nothing:

    "The Swedes themselves arrogantly note that flight performance is undoubtedly important, but not a priority in aerial combat and in overcoming the boundaries of modern air defense"

    In other words, the more advanced automated "network-centric" systems for analyzing the situation and controlling the battle are winning.

    And relish and compare the individual characteristics of the aircraft is nothing

    Although, as it will be in reality, no one knows, but, personally to me, this tactic seems very serious
    1. rubin6286
      rubin6286 26 March 2018 14: 50
      +3
      Boris!
      It is precisely the people sitting in the cabs of the vehicles who win the air battle, and not the "more developed automated" network-centric "systems for analyzing the situation and controlling the battle.
      These systems only complement the pilot’s arsenal and help in completing the task. Their presence on board turns the aircraft into a relay of information for other machines in the group. The maneuverable air battle of a front-line fighter is significantly different from an attack of an air target by an air defense fighter-interceptor. In the first case, the fighter pilot, being above the battlefield, is the object of attack by enemy aircraft and anti-aircraft missiles. Therefore, along with finding the target, he is forced to change speed and altitude, flight profile, and perform anti-missile and anti-aircraft maneuvers. The pilot of a front-line fighter simply does not have time to relay the situation and direct others at the target. It is no coincidence that a number of fighters have a crew of two people, where the navigator operator is responsible for the network-centric system for analyzing and informing about the situation. The speeds of the vehicles are great and it is likely that other front-line fighters in the group may not have time to redirect and reach the line of attack. The interceptors of the air defense system act either on their own or on neutral territory (water area) and the trajectory of their meeting with the goal represents an almost perfect straight line. You can not be afraid of SAM, MANPADS, EW system interference, and the target most often moves at subsonic speed. Here there is time for relaying the situation and pointing at the target that interceptor from the group that is at the target in the most favorable position. The Swedes have not invented anything new here. This is provided for on the MiG-31 (USSR, Russia), F-14, F-15 (USA), Typhoon and Tornado (England). To increase the range of target detection and guidance of fighters on them, M-50 aircraft (Russia) are used,
      E-2 "Hokai", E-3 "Sentry", A-6 "Prowler" (USA).
      1. NN52
        NN52 26 March 2018 21: 52
        +2
        rubin6286

        I have not read the best saying for a long time !!!
        Thank you!
  35. Chief Officer
    Chief Officer April 3 2018 20: 26
    +2
    Very familiar with the JAS-39C.
    Several times I saw him in business.
    In terms of intensive maneuvering (read melee combat), even with the 29th MiGark of the first modifications, he has nothing to do.
    A typical machine "for quantity", although I will not hide - simple and obedient.
  36. TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 13 May 2018 09: 57
    0
    I heard the opinions of many comrades. I thought. They argued a lot about the case. But no one asked the question - what radar does this miracle have - an airplane? Also not the last parameter in aerial combat.
  37. Larum
    Larum 9 July 2018 11: 39
    0
    Here are the debaters.
    Cheap, angry, upgradeable - what else is needed.
    And 19 Su57 by 2027 is unlikely to bury them. It all depends on the quantity ....
    1. Butchcassidy
      Butchcassidy 9 July 2018 12: 37
      +1
      Quote: Larum
      Here are the debaters.
      Cheap, angry, upgradeable - what else is needed.
      And 19 Su57 by 2027 is unlikely to bury them. It all depends on the quantity ....

      They cannot be compared. In addition to being different generations, these are different classes. The Swede can be compared with the MiG-35 and MiG better;)
      1. Larum
        Larum 10 July 2018 11: 40
        +1
        And we won’t. With a skillful approach, they are all very personal ....
        1. Butchcassidy
          Butchcassidy 10 July 2018 11: 52
          0
          Quote: Larum
          And we won’t. With a skillful approach, they are all very personal ....

          I agree. More depends on the “gasket between the steering wheel and the seat” than on the equipment itself. No need to go far: KSA is packed with technological weapons that they can’t use. And the Yemenis from the antediluvian Soviet weapons smash the Saudis, the mentality is different there: everyone wears a dagger, and when a boy is born in the family they give AK. This is not not pampered Saudis.
  38. Comrade Kim
    Comrade Kim 22 August 2018 00: 34
    0
    Quote: Razvedka_Boem
    Some SAAB cars have a driver's seat like a fighter cockpit ..) Especially if you turn on the dashboard lights.

    Exactly, only the place, the rest was so corrupted by the crooked and cross-eyed GM engineers (saab, like Opel, like many other brands / brands of cars is part of the GM concern), that you won’t look without tears.
  39. asr55
    asr55 9 November 2020 16: 26
    0
    Quote: mariusdeayeraleone
    We need such planes at least 60.

    This is who "us"? You may need it.