Military Review

Japanese submachine guns Kijiro Nambu

90
Japanese handgun weapon The first half of the 20th century is very different from European or US weapons. These differences are noticeable even in appearance and ergonomics, although it would seem, not aliens, all the same two hands and two legs, and if we talk about the design, it remains only to marvel at the decisions that were applied and admire the skill of turners and millers of that time .


Despite the design of the Japanese firearms and some very controversial decisions, one cannot say that the Japanese gunsmiths were far from the modern vision of one or another class of weapon and its implementation outside the country. In addition to significant differences, one can observe similarity, both with the most successful European models, and with popular models of weapons from the USA, but with its own unique features and solutions.

The most significant contribution to the development of Japanese firearms was Kijiro Nambu. The same designer who designed the Type 11 machine gun, which not only had the original power supply system, but also sometimes liked to gently bite machine guns for fingers when reloading. They say so "gently" that sometimes the fingers separated from their owner. In this article we will try to get acquainted with a less aggressive and more compact weapon, namely with Kijiro Nambu submachine guns.

"Tommy-Gan" in Japanese

One of the first Japanese submachine guns appeared in 1927 year. At first glance, this weapon can be accurately determined by what kind of submachine gun Nambu designed his own PP. During a business trip to the United States, the designer met the then completely new weapon, the Thompson submachine gun. Being impressed by the high firepower and stability of the PP when maintaining automatic fire, the designer decided to create his own version of "Tommy-Ghana" for the Japanese army, deprived of the shortcomings of its American progenitor, but at the same time retaining all its advantages.

Japanese submachine guns Kijiro Nambu


The beginning was more than commendable, but as always there were its “buts”. In 1927, the Japanese army was armed with a pistol cartridge 8x22 Nambu. To say that the ammunition was far from .45ASP means not to say anything. The only thing that ammunition has in common is the subsonic speed of the bullet.

A bullet with a mass from 21,85 to 6,4 grams with a real caliber 6,7 millimeter was placed in a sleeve of 8,18 mm length. This bullet, from the barrel of a Type 14 pistol, dispersed the powder charge to 325 meters per second, that is, the kinetic energy of the bullet was equal to 350 Joule. As it affected the characteristics of the submachine gun, we will understand a little lower.



It should be noted that the Japanese patron was appreciated in Europe, at least, there are such rumors in the arms circles, not as the main ammunition, but as a cartridge for special weapons. So, you can find references to the creation of pistols with noiseless firing devices for the special services under this ammunition, although few have seen this weapon alive. So, it is quite possible that more than a few units of pistols were not released, if they existed at all for a Japanese cartridge, similar in characteristics to European ammunition was more than enough. But back to the Kajiro Nambu submachine gun 1927 of the year.

The automatic system of a submachine gun is built on the principle of using recoil energy with a free gate. The shot is made from the closed shutter, which has a positive effect on the conduct of a single fire. The trigger mechanism allows you to produce both single shots and shoot "burst". In general, fundamentally nothing new is found in this software.

If we talk about the appearance of the weapon, then, first of all, the "corporate" curved butt is striking. With such a butt, it was easy to abandon the pistol grip, but it is still present. Immediately above it is a translator of fire modes, also known as a fuse switch. Next to it is placed the handle for cocking the shutter, which, interestingly for that time, remained unmovable when firing. Aim devices are presented entirely adjustable and front sight.

Special attention is worth disc shop. Apparently, Kajiro Nambu did not like the procedure for equipping the stores of Tommy-Ghana, so he found his method of facilitating and speeding up this process. In the weapons shop ammo stacked in metal plates, tapes. Each such plate housed 10 cartridges. Since the ammunition was simply clamped in the ribbon, the principle of feeding cartridges into the chamber did not change, the ammunition was simply pushed forward from the plate by the bolt. The plate itself crawled out on the left side of the weapon and just fell out after using all the cartridges in it. The equipment of the shops was carried out by inserting plates with cartridges in turn, without disassembling the “disk”.



On all images of this weapon, disk shops have a rather large cut-out, through which a metal tape for ammunition is visible. It is not entirely clear whether this was the final decision or whether a cover was still present that covered this neckline. You do not need to be a designer to understand that the dirt and the ground that falls into this rather large window will easily lead to failures, even of such a simple design of the weapon.

According to various sources, the machine gun shop could hold 5 or 6 ribbons with ammunition, the fastest possible difference is the creation of several shops. In addition to the disc magazine, the submachine gun could also be fed from a box-shaped two-row magazine with a capacity of 25 cartridges.

The total length of the weapon was 690 millimeters with a kilogram 3,3 mass without cartridges. The curb weight of the disc store was more than one kilogram.

As is known, the characteristics of any weapon are determined primarily by the ammunition used. The 8x22 Nambu and .45ACP cartridges, which are incomparable in their characteristics, made the combat effectiveness and submachine guns incomparable in combat effectiveness. However, where one has disadvantages, the other easily has advantages. The “weaker” cartridge made it possible to make the bolt group of weapons simple and easy, unlike the American progenitor. The cartridge possessed a flat flight trajectory, the recoil when shooting was significantly less, although what kind of recoil could it be at all with such masses. But the main drawback of the Japanese submachine gun was the low stopping effect when hit, but this is, in contrast, in comparison with the .45ACP.

The final for the first Japanese submachine gun Kajiro Nambu was quite obvious for that time. The rate of fire in the 600 rounds per minute seemed overwhelming to the commander and excessive useless ammunition overruns. Even after the designer reduced the rate of fire of the weapon by half, the submachine gun was not put into service because of the high cost of production.

Submachine gun Nambu Model 1

Despite the failure of his version of "Tommy-Ghana" The designer did not stop and continued to work on the creation of a Japanese submachine gun. Like any designer, Kajiro Nambu was aware of what types of weapons are being created and put into service in other countries, which means it is only a matter of time before the military officials will have to have their own software.



And to wait, as it turned out, did not have long. Already in the 30-s, several hundred submachine guns MP.28 / II were purchased, respectively, the task was set to do the same, but better and cheaper. Technical requirements for the new weapons were formed. It was planned to develop three models of submachine guns, the Nambu Model 1 the first of them.
On the basis of all the same ammunition 8x22 Nambu was developed by the PP, which by its decisions can plug many later European developments, but as always in Japanese weapons, there are a number of their “buts”.



First of all, the pistol grip, which is turned in the “wrong” direction, catches the eye. A similar decision can now be found in sports weapons. Objectively, it is much more convenient to keep, although it is unusual, but how to shoot is a moot point. The second interesting point in this submachine gun, but the opposite concerns the handle, into which a curved magazine with a capacity of 50 cartridges is inserted. It can be said that Kajiro Nambu was one of the first to apply such a solution in submachine guns, which resulted in a reduction in the overall length of the weapon while maintaining a sufficient barrel length. And back, it is impossible not to draw attention to the possibility of dirt getting into the weapon shop, but visually it can be determined how many cartridges are left.



If we talk about the design of the machine gun Nambu Model 1, then there is not so simple. The basis was the automation system with a free gate, the shot is made from the open shutter, as if everything is customary and relatively cheap so far. But in order to reduce the rate of fire in the back of the PP is placed pneumatic damper. But for some reason the designer put the return spring around the trunk, combining it with the bolt group with the help of long barriers. Despite the downs on the very barrel of the weapon, it is unlikely that the return spring would long retain its properties during intensive firing and, accordingly, heating.



The total length of the weapon was 620 millimeters, weight without kilogram 2,8 cartridges, rate of fire - 500 shots per minute.



Despite the fact that this submachine gun was not put into service, it received at least a minimum distribution. Thus, the Japanese Imperial Navy ordered a small batch of PP data. In addition, these submachine guns were tested in the UK, as a weapon for armored vehicle crews, where they were refused due to weak ammunition and a number of other shortcomings, including ergonomics.

The first Japanese automatic and the first intermediate cartridge

As mentioned above, it was planned to develop and produce three models of submachine guns. The second version of this weapon was supposed to be, according to the modern classification, machine gun. A new weapon could boast a new ammunition, namely the cartridge 6,5х30. I agree, it doesn’t hold out to the intermediate cartridge, but this is not the pistol cartridge either. It was assumed that the new ammunition would be equipped with a spindle-shaped bullet weighing more than 7 grams, which was supposed to fly at a speed of about 600 meters per second. In the process of developing a new ammunition, various versions of bullets, of various calibers and shapes, were tried until they found the final version. And there was nothing left to do - to make a weapon for this cartridge, but the command considered that it was an unaffordable luxury to adopt another type of ammunition, and therefore the project was closed.

Submachine gun Type 100

This submachine gun was created in accordance with the third version of the PP for the Japanese army. Seeing the futility of creating more sophisticated weapons, Kajiro Nambu apparently decided to make the most simple and cheap product, resembling European models of PP with its appearance and design. So in 1939, the final version of the submachine gun under the designation Type 100 appeared.



It is unlikely that this submachine gun could be called interesting if it were not for the strange demands on it. So this PP was completed with a bipod and a bayonet, and if the second is still more or less a useful thing, then for what a bipod remains a mystery. It is noteworthy that there was a version of weapons for paratroopers, which differed side-folding butt.

The weapon is a submachine gun with automatics, built on the principle of using recoil energy with a free gate. The shot comes from the open shutter, only one fire mode - automatic. Shops with a capacity of 30 cartridges are attached to the left side of the weapon. In other words, it turned out to be quite a “classic” European submachine gun, easy to operate and cheap to manufacture. But this did not force the command to urgently equip their army with these weapons. Only in the 1942 year, when only the blind or the fool could not see the advantages of the software, was the go-ahead for the mass production of this submachine gun. By 1945, by significantly reducing the overall product quality, and by further simplifying the design in 1944, we managed to create about 30 thousands of weapons, which, by the standards of wartime, is a very small number.



The version of the 1942 submachine gun of the year was 890 millimeters long and weight without kilogram 3,8 cartridges. His rate of fire was 450 shots per minute. The simplified version of the 1944 of the year had millimeters of 900 length with a kilogram of 3,4, while its rate of fire was already 800 rounds per minute. Both versions fed on 8x22 Nambu cartridges.

Сonclusion

In the end, I would like to conclude that the promising projects of submachine guns broke about the hardness and short-sightedness of military officials, but this will be only one side of the coin. To call the submachine guns that preceded the Type 100, interesting and in many points ahead of their time for decades is certainly possible. Nevertheless, if you look at these weapon samples objectively, then they could hardly be called good weapons with which you could fight. Separate open construction units, which seem to have been specially created for collecting dirt, are not always the right technical solutions, all of which makes the above submachine guns raw and absolutely unsuitable for arming a full-fledged army. Perhaps the only worthwhile project that was closed was associated with a new ammunition and weapon for him, although even there it is likely that the weapon would have turned out to be too “Japanese”.
Author:
Photos used:
weaponland.ru, waralbum.ru, mishajp.livejournal.com
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  1. gorenina91
    gorenina91 14 March 2018 15: 14
    +1
    -So .., and then what did the Japanese infantry fight .. -only rifles, or what ...? -Folly ridiculous inefficient automatic weapons ...
    1. hohol95
      hohol95 14 March 2018 16: 37
      +4
      Swiss-made submachine gun Bergmann SIG 1920 in the service of the imperial fleet.
      The total number of SIG 1939 submachine guns purchased by the fleet before the embargo in 1920 was estimated at 5 - 800. The army was not purchased.
      It is important to point out a few well-established misconceptions. Ready-made submachine guns stored in the warehouses of a Swiss company were bought from 1927 (since the end of production) the modifications were already made by the Japanese.
      Mounts for bayonets of type 30 were installed on naval arsenals. But not all Japanese SIG 1920s were equipped with bayonet mounts.
      The submachine gun with the lower neck of the store is not a Swiss SIG 1920, it is a copy of a 1927 Tsing Tao submachine gun made in China in Shandong province. This submachine gun came to the Japanese only as a trophy or confiscated.
      It is noteworthy that the SIG 1920 was widely supplied to the Kuomintang forces in China in the 7,63 mm caliber from 1922 to 1930. The number of units delivered is unknown.

      1. serg.shishkov2015
        serg.shishkov2015 16 March 2018 06: 28
        +1
        in the memoirs of a veteran published in the mid-zero, he found that in the Finnish part they were armed with captured Japanese machine guns, Type 100 in time does not work, then Bergmann
        1. Akuzenka
          Akuzenka 20 March 2018 16: 52
          +1
          Maybe it was a Fedorov assault rifle? He is under the Japanese caliber.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 14 March 2018 18: 50
      +4
      Quote: gorenina91
      -So .., and then what did the Japanese infantry fight .. -only rifles, or what ...?

      Actually, everyone fought with rifles in the early to mid-WWII. Drunk machine gunner chains with rolled up sleeves only go to the movies. smile
      The Japanese had a classic combination for WWII: in the infantry department (14 people) - arrows with rifles plus two light machine guns.
      The units, fully armed with the PP, were EMNIP, only with us - and they used them very narrowly: tank troops, battles in the cities, light infantry.
      1. Kibb
        Kibb 14 March 2018 23: 19
        0
        We used it widely, but not from a good life, but the cartridge gave at least flatness
        And so in general there are no "dumb generals of retrograde" - the niche of the PP in the army is still extremely narrow
  2. polpot
    polpot 14 March 2018 15: 20
    +4
    Thanks for the article, original design work but no more
  3. Serge Gorely
    Serge Gorely 14 March 2018 15: 45
    +5
    Japanese gunsmiths, perhaps, only the French surpassed. Apparently because of the desire to show their uniqueness and identity. Solid unreliable freaks.
  4. Kibb
    Kibb 14 March 2018 15: 59
    +1
    Quote: gorenina91
    -So .., and then what did the Japanese infantry fight .. -only rifles, or what ...? -Folly ridiculous inefficient automatic weapons ...

    Rifles and machine guns, some other tiny amount of MP28 was - and fought
    1. hohol95
      hohol95 14 March 2018 16: 55
      +1
      Used Chinese trophies - made in China by Thomson's PP -
      “For a thousand Chinese killed, they give out a personal light machine gun, a smaller carbine and a huge store” such a bike went among the soldiers in China.

      Chinese copies of the MP18 / I and MP28 / II submachine guns.
      Chinese copies of the MP18 / I Tsing Tao submachine gun.
      Tsing Tao submachine guns entered service with the Shanghai Public Security Bureau, then the Kuomintang armed forces and in the form of confiscated or trophies of the Japanese army and navy. Moreover, the Japanese used and discharge systems of Chinese origin.
      1. Kibb
        Kibb 14 March 2018 22: 49
        0
        So for sure, they were for sure, but this is also a minuscule - simply because there simply isn’t a mob of ammunition, at least until wear or ammunition is exhausted.
        PS YES and the handbrake of the Japanese is not a fountain
        1. hohol95
          hohol95 14 March 2018 22: 56
          0
          Yes, from one “YAMATO” how many could have done both tanks and machine guns and PP!
          And the little hands - the Americans also did not show off in this area! With BAR, we ran the whole war!
          1. Kibb
            Kibb 14 March 2018 23: 06
            0
            Well, it would be what to do - it seems like except Arisaki there is nothing sensible at all
            Well, BAR by and large is not a handbrake at all, but with the M1 as the main rifle, it can still be tolerated as a "machine gun" compartment.
            1. hohol95
              hohol95 14 March 2018 23: 13
              +1
              The Japanese Type 99 light machine gun was generally successful. It was an order of magnitude more reliable than its 6,5 mm predecessor Type 96, as it did without greasing of cartridges, had a better-made chamber and improved ejector. The disadvantage was its high cost and complexity in production. Type 99 was used along with Type 96 and Type 11, as well as a whole host of other obsolete and captured machine guns. All of them required the supply of non-interchangeable ammunition, could be used not only within the company, but even a platoon. So the appearance of a Type 99 cartridge and a Type 99 machine gun only complicated the Japanese "cartridge" problem.
              Ultimately, American infantrymen suppressed Japanese firing positions, often mainly with knapsack flamethrowers and explosives, under the cover of concentrated fire and armored vehicles, against which the high morale of the Japanese was useless.
              1. Kibb
                Kibb 15 March 2018 00: 00
                0
                I agree. But in mass he only went to the 43rd ... and a machine gun with a bayonet is generally cool wassat I apologize could not resist wink
                1. hohol95
                  hohol95 15 March 2018 00: 15
                  0
                  The bayonet is yes ...
                  1. serg.shishkov2015
                    serg.shishkov2015 16 March 2018 07: 01
                    +1
                    especially when you consider that the bayonet was attached not at the cut of the trunk, but somewhere in the depths and a third of the length of the blade was not used
                    1. hohol95
                      hohol95 16 March 2018 08: 06
                      +1
                      An unusual accessory for the Japanese Type 96 and Type 99 machine guns was the Type 30 infantry bayonet (model 1897), 400 mm long, designed for use with the Arisaka Type 30 rifle, which was attached to the gas cylinder under the barrel. At the same time, with the arrester installed, the bayonet only exceeded the dimensions of the weapon by only two-thirds of the length of the blade! The fact that in a bayonet battle not the highest and strongest Japanese soldiers would have been very problematic to use a machine gun with a bayonet with a total weight of 11,1 kilograms (Type 99 weighs 10,4 kg, Type 30 bayonet, 700 g), probably was not accepted or was generally ignored.

                      1. serg.shishkov2015
                        serg.shishkov2015 16 March 2018 08: 51
                        0
                        I met the magazine Weapons thanks to Japanese machine guns, I saw a number with a loom on the cover,
  5. Sasha75
    Sasha75 14 March 2018 19: 40
    +2
    All resources were thrown to the Navy. The Chinese were better armed than the Japanese in the Chinese arsenals made copies of the machine gun Maxim carbine Mauser in caliber not 6.5, but in the normal 7.92 that the Japanese tanks penetrated)))). They copied the pistols of all existing models, and in terms of quality they did not even lose to Nambu, but excelled. There were purchases of machine guns, and Mauser S-96 and Astra in large quantities. Many went to the Japanese. And the Japanese won the Chinese with money, they bribed the generals, as we did in 1904. It hasn’t happened to the Americans so far. They lick their ass))). In general, the whole series of Nambu crafts would have been a complete wrecking thing at that time, he would not have survived to comparative tests, he would have been shot and correctly done.
    1. hohol95
      hohol95 14 March 2018 19: 52
      +1
      General Huang Zhenqiu, the commander of Chinese aviation, flew to rest in his residence south to Xiangang, while officially the Japanese allowed him to fly through the territory occupied by the Japanese army in the Guangzhou area.
    2. Kibb
      Kibb 14 March 2018 22: 50
      0
      Most likely this is the case - the fleet gobbled up all the resources
      1. rew
        rew 15 March 2018 19: 39
        0
        Quote: Kibb
        Most likely this is the case - the fleet gobbled up all the resources

        And brainwave?
        1. Kibb
          Kibb 16 March 2018 16: 20
          +1
          Not so much brain, but you remember that the Americans and the Japanese actually have two wars - one is waged by the army and the other by the fleet.
  6. DesToeR
    DesToeR 14 March 2018 19: 54
    +3
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Parts fully armed with software were EMNIP, only here

    Organization Todt.
    1. gladcu2
      gladcu2 14 March 2018 21: 40
      0
      For some reason, machines are looking from left to right.

      Left-handed galleries?
      1. Kibb
        Kibb 14 March 2018 22: 52
        +1
        "Stroybat", they do not care, they have another main weapon wink
      2. Alex_59
        Alex_59 15 March 2018 13: 27
        +2
        Quote: gladcu2
        For some reason, machines are looking from left to right.

        This is MP-40, so try hanging it the other way. The hole from the shutter handle in the solar plexus is guaranteed. For a pretentious construction they hung, do not fight the same.
        1. Kibb
          Kibb 15 March 2018 14: 18
          0
          Normally, he hangs himself like that, not in a parade with him - I tried, in this regard, everything is fine
        2. Kibb
          Kibb 15 March 2018 14: 50
          0
          Falling with it is definitely easier than with PPSh with a disk.
  7. Catfish
    Catfish 14 March 2018 23: 27
    +3
    Quote: gladcu2
    For some reason, machines are looking from left to right.

    Left-handed galleries?


    Due to the front swivel, it is on the right. And the loading handle is on the left, and if you wear the barrel from right to left, when walking, the handle hits the chest significantly. But actually it’s true: the construction battalion is also a construction battalion in Germany.
    1. Kibb
      Kibb 15 March 2018 14: 57
      0
      Did the disc on the PPSh not interfere and did not hit the chest ("pimpochka" or a huge drum)? By modern standards, there is generally one grip under the disk (by the way, it’s unexpectedly convenient, but you need to get used to it)
  8. Kibb
    Kibb 15 March 2018 00: 12
    0

    Yes, I know, only they actually wore it as it was convenient for everyone - there is one thing on the staged photos .. but on the real ones ...
  9. Henrik the reader
    Henrik the reader 15 March 2018 01: 38
    +4
    Good day, gentlemen, readers! And actually Monsieur author!
    A big request to the author to study the source material more carefully and learn how to work with the source.
    The text contains unacceptable errors and distortions of the content of the source text.
    Well I do not know! I chewed, pulverized here as I could ... I just didn’t dance with an accordion!
    Description of the automation of the Tokyo Arsenal software - shock and awe :))
    And things are still there - "The Japanese Imperial Fleet has ordered a small batch of PP data" - this is about type 1.
    An experimental machine gun pistol for 1937 (Second Shanghai incident - the beginning of the war) was transferred to Army only 6 (six) pieces.
    Where is the full chapter on experimental type 2 software?
    By type 100 software - "people and horses are mixed" - forget about the highlight in the modifications! And again, 30 thousand units. According to technical reports of Colonel S. Taguchi (responsible for the acceptance and testing of finished products) of all modifications of the type 000 software, July 100 was made 10 300 pieces.

    I'm sad for you.
    Sincerely, Uncle Henrik (Reader)

    R.S. Full and non-battered texts here:
    Japanese small arms standard and non-standard
    http://waralbum.ru/bb/viewtopic.php?id=959
    and here (photo more): Japanese small arms. History.Information.Characteristics.
    https://lautlesen.livejournal.com
    1. AlexMark
      15 March 2018 02: 16
      +3
      Good day! Opened your links - you have done a huge amount of work on Japanese handguns, hats off hi It is a pity that I did not stumble upon this information earlier, at least three days ago, and after all the search for pictures led to you smile
      Let's just say this article is a compilation of what I found on the Internet for each of the samples of Japanese PP. By Type 2 there was generally very little information that would have resonated with other sources, except for the new ammunition, hence the lack of information about it, now I see really done, one was right - the weapon turned out to be too "Japanese" wink
      You would arrange your work in the book version, among the lovers of firearms, the book would become a bestseller.
      As you can see, there is little information about Japanese weapons, but you have actually collected everything in one place. At least for a few evenings I found a very interesting reading for myself.
      Thank you for your criticism and for the material provided for study. hi
      1. Henrik the reader
        Henrik the reader 15 March 2018 02: 53
        +4
        Always happy to share information!
        But please keep in mind that these are author translations from English, German, Japanese and Chinese made by me personally (with all the errors and finds).
        And on this again I ask indicate where and from whom. And nothing more.
        Returning to the sources.
        The fact is that in Russian-language source codes (books, websites and articles in magazines) information from several available books is used:
        the main source is the Small Arms of the World - Smith W. Basic Guide on Small Arms
        extras- Small arms yesterday. R. Lidshun, Gunther Wollert
        Second World War. War of the Gunsmiths Milchev M., Popenker M.

        To varying degrees of distortion, this information is interpreted on sites in English and Russian. Moreover, one and the same, letter by letter.
        And for an example on the Japanese site: http: // 日本 の 武器 兵器 .jp Japanese weapons. Sugawa Kaoru presents a huge amount of sources on the topic.
        And yet, in order to understand the peculiarities of the development of the Japanese weapons school, it is simply necessary to move away from established prejudices to the ability to construct independent types of weapons for both Japanese and other peoples of East Asia.

        Sincerely, Uncle Henrik (Reader)
  10. tank66
    tank66 15 March 2018 10: 03
    +2
    Not even 5, but half a penny on my own. After examining the Yapov exposition of the Military Museum in St. Petersburg. How many japas "licked" Arisaka, in particular the bayonet-knife mount



    got along just as casually their artillery

    for welding seams in the Soviet vocational school, the performer would not even put a triple

    despite the fact that the Swedes have erlikons of that time / the beginning of the 20th century / at first glance, a semi-automatic
    cooked. Pardon for the quality of the pictures / on the phone /.
  11. VictorZhivilov
    VictorZhivilov 15 March 2018 12: 53
    0
    I wonder why the 8x22 Nambu is not widely used in the world. In my opinion, a very interesting ammunition with good accuracy. Could make a worthy competition.
    1. Kibb
      Kibb 15 March 2018 13: 48
      0
      Quote: VictorZhivilov
      I wonder why the 8x22 Nambu is not widely used in the world. In my opinion, a very interesting ammunition with good accuracy. Could make a worthy competition.

      He is weak for the army, and very weak.
      1. VictorZhivilov
        VictorZhivilov 15 March 2018 14: 40
        +1
        Sorry that I was misunderstood, but I meant the civilian ammunition market.
        1. Kibb
          Kibb 15 March 2018 15: 25
          +1
          A lot of caliber after WWII got out (and before it was). 9X19 in dozens of options, while the army satisfies to date. The civilian is also saturated with more than: 38 until it came down for the civilian market for revolvers - cheap and cheerful, .9x19 also represented on the civilian market more than a lot, 9x17, our 9x18. Sports and hunting in general shaft. Why such an exotic, want to shoot in the 22LR dash - an eternal cartridge, there will be another hundred years
          1. VictorZhivilov
            VictorZhivilov 19 March 2018 23: 03
            +1
            I completely agree, but there is 7,62x25 - an interesting ammunition in terms of ballistics ...


            Japan does not have national ammunition and it would be nice if it were present in the civilian ammunition market. smile
            1. Kibb
              Kibb 20 March 2018 11: 28
              +1
              There was no pistol. With rifles, everything is not so bad or rather relatively good.
              As for the video, it’s not so bad with the Mauser and wound ballistics as some are trying to prove. For the police "market", you can make an expansion, for the military core, but for the civilian with a shell, it is superfluous. Those. wagon as with 9x19 will not work most likely, but nonetheless ... hi
  12. Yak28
    Yak28 15 March 2018 19: 32
    +1
    The Japanese make good telly. Machines, but their weapons have always been ugly, you can vomit on one kind. Katana sword is the top of the Japanese defense industry
    1. rew
      rew 15 March 2018 19: 41
      +1
      Quote: Yak28
      The Japanese make good telly. Machines, but their weapons have always been ugly, you can vomit on one kind. Katana sword is the top of the Japanese defense industry

      Well written. And the essence is well grasped.
      I would also add, and warriors from the Japanese, like ...
      1. AlexMark
        15 March 2018 22: 23
        +2
        The Japanese soldiers are excellent, very few people can boast of such discipline and training. All questions to the military leadership, not the soldiers.
        1. rew
          rew 15 March 2018 22: 57
          0
          Quote: AlexMark
          The Japanese soldiers are just great, few can boast of such discipline and training.

          Ask what Americans did with these “disciplined and learned” during WW2. And during WW1, the Germans.
          Yes, and the Red Army during the 2 MV nastilyat Japanese hard.
          Yes, what can I say, even the Red Army arr. the end of the 30s (almost of little legal capacity) was able in China (Khalkhin Gol) not to get a hat from the Japanese.
          1. AlexMark
            15 March 2018 23: 00
            +1
            The problem was not in the personnel, but in command, in the training system, and so on ... Do you recall how many years the soldier of the Japanese army fought after the end of the Second World War? At the same time, an absolutely mentally healthy person, he simply had an order, and it was a shame for him to retreat from him. I am already silent about kamikazes: the order is given - ready to carry out. So what about the Japanese soldiers do not need to speak badly as a fighter. Here is the command, yes - bad people.
            1. rew
              rew 15 March 2018 23: 12
              0
              Quote: AlexMark
              You recall how many years a soldier of the Japanese army fought after the end of World War II?

              Do you want me to list all the Japanese crazy?
              Quote: AlexMark
              At the same time, he was an absolutely mentally healthy person, he just had an order, and it was a shame for him to retreat from him.

              It is not normal. Do you understand? The actions of your "absolutely normal people" were abnormal.
              Quote: AlexMark
              I am already silent about the kamikaze: the order is given - they are ready to carry out.

              These kamikaze were enough for everyone.
              Quote: AlexMark
              So there is no need to talk badly about Japanese soldiers as fighters. Here is the command, yes - bad people.

              I do not separate commanders and executors. This is not interesting to me; the final conclusion is important. And he is such that the Japanese, the warriors are bad. Against the Chinese or Koreans, wherever it went. And so ...
              1. AlexMark
                15 March 2018 23: 18
                +1
                Quote: rew
                Do you want me to list all the Japanese crazy?

                They are crazy in your understanding, and they have an understanding of not just the words "Motherland", "Honor", "Order" ... However, we hardly find a common language to understand each other, let's just stay in our own the world hi
                1. rew
                  rew 15 March 2018 23: 25
                  0
                  Quote: AlexMark
                  It is in your understanding that they are crazy, and they have an understanding of not just the words "Homeland", "Honor", "Order" ...

                  It is generally accepted that they are crazy.
                  1. AlexMark
                    15 March 2018 23: 31
                    +1
                    Let's close the topic. You have already explained everything many times, although you were under other nicknames.
              2. hohol95
                hohol95 17 March 2018 23: 15
                0
                So BAD WARRIORS easily and unconstrainedly rode bicycles into SINGAPORE FORTRESS?
                Winston Churchill did not hide his confusion: “It never occurred to me for a second that the neck of the fortress of Singapore, with its magnificent moat half a mile to a mile wide, was not completely fortified from an attack from the north. As a result of such neglect, the entire security of the fortress depends on tens of thousands of people who can cross the strait in small boats. I warn you that this will be one of the greatest scandals that could be revealed. ”

                After all the defeats, Percival had 85000 left at his disposal, as he suggested, 60000 Japanese. But the proud British now, as a fortune, dreamed of sitting behind the Dzhokharsky Strait. In fact, the Japanese were only 36 thousand.
                The forces of the parties on February 8, 1942
                British troops in Malaya
                85 thousand (20 thousand British, 14 thousand Australians, 35 thousand Indians, 16 thousand Malays) As of February 15, 2 thousand were killed, 5 thousand were wounded, and 80 thousand prisoners were killed

                Japanese 25th Army
                36 thousand. On February 15, 1713 were killed, 2772 wounded.


                The JAPANESE were the bad soldiers ... BAD ...

                Arthur Ernest Percival (1887-1966) Lieutenant General -
                In 1957, he launched a campaign against the film “Bridge over the River Kwai”, in which, in his opinion, the behavior of captured British officers was incorrectly shown.

                It would be better if he directed the troops like he protested against the film!
          2. hohol95
            hohol95 15 March 2018 23: 30
            +1
            Khalkhin Gol is MONGOLIA!
            1. rew
              rew 15 March 2018 23: 37
              0
              Quote: hohol95
              Khalkhin Gol is MONGOLIA!

              Mongolia in those years was one of the provinces of China. There was no such state.
              Learn the story.
              1. kapitan92
                kapitan92 15 March 2018 23: 51
                +4
                Quote: rew
                Quote: hohol95
                Khalkhin Gol is MONGOLIA!

                Mongolia in those years was one of the provinces of China. There was no such state.
                Learn the story.

                I’ll intervene a bit in your intellectual debate over Khalkhin Gol and Mongolia.
                You can just open the wiki and find out!
                Fights on Khalkhin-Gol (Mong. Khalkhin Golyn Bildaan or Mong. Khalkhin Golyn Dain “Khalkhin-Gol War”, ノ モ ン ハ ン 事件 Nomon Khan Dziken) - an undeclared local armed conflict that lasted from spring to autumn 1939 near the Khalkhin-Gol River in Mongolia (approximately 900 km east of Ulaanbaatar) not far from the border with Manzhou-go between the USSR, Mongolia on one side and the Japanese Empire and Manzhou-go on the other.

                In Japanese historiography, the term "Khalkhin-Gol" is used only for the name of the river, and the military conflict is called the "Nomon-Khan incident", after the name of a small village in the area of ​​the Manchu-Mongolian border. hi
                1. hohol95
                  hohol95 16 March 2018 00: 38
                  0
                  Nomongan - the Japanese prove that the fighting did not take place on the territory of the MPR, but on the territory of MANCHURIA!
                  And if so, then the aggressor of Japan, and the MPR and the USSR!
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                2. The comment was deleted.
              2. hohol95
                hohol95 15 March 2018 23: 55
                +1
                YOU SHOULDER THE GREATEST WITHOUT
                On November 26, 1924, the Great People's Khural - Parliament, proclaimed the creation of the Mongolian People's Republic - the MPR, and adopted the first Constitution of the new state. This date is celebrated as a national holiday of the republic - Independence Day of Mongolia.
                Then, in November 1924, the capital of the country, Urga, was renamed Ulaanbaatar and became the seat of the Government of the second socialist country in the world. Until 1990, in Mongolia, there was a communist regime of one party - the Mongolian people's revolutionary party.
                1. The comment was deleted.
          3. John22
            John22 16 March 2018 14: 34
            +1
            With numerous superiority in l / s and technology, it is not difficult to win.
            1. hohol95
              hohol95 16 March 2018 15: 56
              0
              Everyone is so easy! If this is not enough for you - DO NOT BLOW THE WAR!
            2. hohol95
              hohol95 18 March 2018 15: 56
              0
              Remember the surrender of SINGAPORE fortress - February 15, 1942 -
              British troops in Malaya
              85 thousand (20 thousand British, 14 thousand Australians, 35 thousand Indians, 16 thousand Malays)
              On February 15, 2 thousand were killed, 5 thousand were wounded,] prisoners - 80 thousand
              Japanese 25th Army
              36 thousands
              On February 15, 1713 were killed, 2772 wounded
        2. yehat
          yehat 16 March 2018 23: 42
          0
          Japanese soldiers are not good at discipline, but with strong-willed qualities and the habit of acting in a team, as well as at a fairly high level of literacy. In all other respects they are mediocrity.
          Japanese officers were sometimes distinguished by very carefully honing their skills.
          For example, Nagumo or Sakai.
    2. Dedall
      Dedall 15 March 2018 21: 38
      +2
      Well, the British also got ugly military weapons. Hunting - yes, no words, but the military ... It is worth recalling at least the “walls” and its reincarnation under the name “stirling”, which I somehow saw in the Czech Republic. Therefore, they still have "Browning HP" in service - a classic in every sense of the word.
      1. Michael_Zverev
        Michael_Zverev 16 March 2018 15: 36
        0
        Well, the Brown Bess musket they had was not bad. laughing
  13. rew
    rew 15 March 2018 19: 38
    0
    Being impressed by the high firepower and stability of the automatic fire during automatic fire, the designer decided to create his own version of “Tommy Gan” for the Japanese army, devoid of the shortcomings of its American ancestor, but at the same time retaining all its advantages.

    A bullet with a mass from 21,85 to 6,4 grams with a real caliber 6,7 millimeter was placed in a sleeve of 8,18 mm length. This bullet, from the barrel of a Type 14 pistol, dispersed the powder charge to 325 meters per second, that is, the kinetic energy of the bullet was equal to 350 Joule. As it affected the characteristics of the submachine gun, we will understand a little lower.

    These two phrases about the same thing can only cause cognitive dissonance. Of course, it’s impossible to do anything even close to Tommy-gun on the 8x22 Nambu cartridge. Even rubbish like PPD / PPSh / PPS you will not do, it will not work.
    1. Dedall
      Dedall 15 March 2018 21: 44
      +4
      rew, this is why you called PPS or PPSh rubbish? I dare to ask: "Have you shot from them?" As for me, I shot, and a lot, from the PCA. About him, I would say that this is a decent device in terms of quality. I even got initials on the target from 100 meters.
      1. AlexMark
        15 March 2018 22: 51
        +2
        The man does not accept anything Soviet, as it turned out, and Japanese)
      2. rew
        rew 15 March 2018 23: 06
        0
        Quote: Dedall
        why did you call PPS or PPSh rubbish?

        Because they were on the TT cartridge (7,62x25 mm). This alone is enough. Although they themselves still had their own "cockroaches."
        Quote: Dedall
        I dare to ask: "Have you shot from them?"

        This is a question, why? To the rain?
        Quote: Dedall
        As for me, I shot, and a lot, from the PCA.

        Everyone has their own quirks.
        Quote: Dedall
        About him, I would say that this is a decent device in terms of quality.

        Do you have any reason to consider yourself a specialist in the field of small arms?
        Quote: Dedall
        I even got initials on the target from 100 meters.

        Hit the target well at the shooting range. There it is enough. Army weapons are not created for this. And in order to kill. Like yourself. Therefore, just falling for him is not enough.
        But with the “kill” in the TT cartridge everything is very bad. Sports cartridge, unsuitable for the army.
        And the cartridge has 8x22 Nambu, too.
        1. Dedall
          Dedall 15 March 2018 23: 12
          +3
          Actually, 20 years in the Army gives me the right to say a lot. Yes, and the N-th amount of "cold" too. And this sad experience of mine says that most of the clashes in modern times occur at a distance of up to 100 meters. Then only sniper and machine gunners work, but there are completely different tasks.
          1. rew
            rew 15 March 2018 23: 18
            0
            Quote: Dedall
            Actually, 20 years in the Army gives me the right to say a lot.

            Even 200 years in the army will not give anyone such a right.
            How many small arms do you know?
            Quote: Dedall
            And this sad experience of mine says that most of the clashes in modern times occur at a distance of up to 100 meters.

            This is because you never fought. Military operations in war conditions are sharply different in special operations.
            In addition, on 100 m PPSh, this is rubbish. Its effective maximum is 35 m. At a norm for a 100 m PP.
            Quote: Dedall
            Then only sniper and machine gunners work, but there are completely different tasks.

            Gee-gee-gee. laughing
            1. AlexMark
              15 March 2018 23: 35
              +2
              And I "... keep quiet, and then we go for a walk ..." (c) Recently I think that entering the Internet with passport data is not such a bad idea. And I really like the law on military honor in the USA ... to "unleash" you a little bit and I could apply it to you.
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. AlexMark
                  15 March 2018 23: 46
                  +3
                  Yes, it is not thin, I do not complain of intestinal patency, there is simply no desire to engage in meaningless squabble with an obvious provocateur laughing For any of your "alas" sensible visitors to the resource are ready to provide a weighty "but".
            2. Dedall
              Dedall 15 March 2018 23: 38
              +2
              And what do you say that the "striped" weapons still have assault rifles? Those in general have a firing range of up to 50 meters (although steel buckshot of them breaks 5 mm of boiler iron per 100 meters), so I repeat that now you will NOT see ANYWHERE attack with bayonets anywhere. And there will be what is now observed near Lugansk and near Donetsk - the firing of howitzers and "hailstones". And if the Americans join, then the Tomahawks and others like them will fly. At the company-battalion level, these will be the AGS and ATGMs with machine guns. But the machine, for which you are so advocating, as individual weapons are slowly losing their meaning. Especially for the rear. To fight off a crazy gang of marauders and partisans, they need something like a “cheetah”, P-90 and the same PPS. In short, a weapon constantly on hand in alert state, capable of bombarding the adversary with a bunch of bullets.
              1. rew
                rew 15 March 2018 23: 45
                0
                Quote: Dedall
                Therefore, I repeat that you will nowhere ANYWHERE see a system attack with bayonets.

                Did someone write something about bayonet attacks?
                Quote: Dedall
                And there will be what is now observed near Lugansk and near Donetsk

                There is no war.
                Quote: Dedall
                Especially for the rear.

                Did we discuss the "warrior" of the bath-laundry detachment?

                As I understand it, you do not know the number of ballistics of small arms. And from this it follows that you cannot evaluate the effectiveness of this or that weapon. Therefore, you have some strange statements. At least even about weapons on a cartridge of 7,62x25 mm TT.
                1. AlexMark
                  16 March 2018 01: 32
                  +2
                  Quote: rew
                  There is no war.

                  But for that you would be easily and naturally shot in the indicated territories. It is a pity that you would not understand.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                    1. AlexMark
                      16 March 2018 01: 57
                      +2
                      Well, dear comrade, who is not a friend to me at all, life has already offended you, since you are a local idiot here. And it is not customary to offend the holy fools)))
  14. Catfish
    Catfish 15 March 2018 23: 41
    +4
    [quote = rew] [quote = Dedall]
    Even 200 years in the army will not give anyone such a right.
    How many small arms do you know?
    [quote = Dedall]
    This is because you never fought. Military operations in war conditions are sharply different in special operations.
    In addition, on 100 m PPSh, this is rubbish. Its effective maximum is 35 m. At a norm for a 100 m PP.
    [Quote
    Gee-gee-gee. laughing[/ Quote]

    The boy rew turned on his favorite "fool auto" mode.
    Homeric conceit in half with the most banal rudeness.
    tongue
    1. AlexMark
      15 March 2018 23: 49
      +2
      Well, a person brings great benefit to the resource, he writes, adequate responses in the comments grow laughing Need to learn from the editor, maybe the person at the rate works wink
      By the way, good evening))) I haven’t been in the comments for a long time, as work has long taken away a lot of time hi
    2. Michael_Zverev
      Michael_Zverev 16 March 2018 15: 39
      0
      This is not Stoker / Carbine / wer2 is back again?
      1. hohol95
        hohol95 16 March 2018 20: 04
        0
        Another reincarnation ...
  15. hohol95
    hohol95 16 March 2018 09: 40
    0
    serg.shishkov2015,
    Attraction of the viewer's eyes is one of the features of Japanese weapons!
  16. sds127
    sds127 17 March 2018 01: 37
    +1
    hmm ... why are you arguing with rew? the body from the first message proved that the ignoramus and for what ... why argue with the wretched? ps He studied at school and institute, studied specialized disciplines, held weapons in his hands, 7,62x25 TT, as well as 7,63 Mauser ammunition, normal, with good ballistics and sufficient lethal force at the distances used.
  17. Catfish
    Catfish 17 March 2018 02: 13
    +2
    Quote: Mikhail_Zverev
    This is not Stoker / Carbine / wer2 is back again?


    They are, They are. And the pigs are back ... They, on the other hand, have no other way. Do not cheat, how not to eat. fool

    Thanks to Mark for an interesting article. Mark, write further, maybe again our garrison will please you with another stupidity. For him, all this is like a car wheel for a village. Just to bark. hi
  18. serg.shishkov2015
    serg.shishkov2015 17 March 2018 06: 06
    0
    The question is for all specialists, I have long been interested in whether Japanese weapons were used in the Great Patriotic War, the Red Army or partisans? Thanks in advance for the information.
    1. Michael_Zverev
      Michael_Zverev 17 March 2018 15: 22
      +1
      Used, but limited. These are mainly carbines and rifles Arisaka arr. 1905, they were massively purchased in Japan and Great Britain back in WWI, there were trophies from Khalkhin Gol, and from the Russo-Japanese War, they were mainly used by the militia. A number of Japanese artillery captured at Khalkhin Gol was also used.
      1. serg.shishkov2015
        serg.shishkov2015 18 March 2018 06: 18
        0
        I knew from my memoirs about the use of Arisak in Tomsk art, a school, and on the site of the Sky Corner I found a KKY ambulance plane, the picture is small and fuzzy, but on the tail I could see our star, although it may have a glitch
        1. hohol95
          hohol95 18 March 2018 15: 51
          +1
          Partisan movement in Crimea, in November-December 1941 View from the other side (Fragment of the book "Secret War in the Crimea").
          The preparation of the material base for the units was also carried out without a single plan, according to the residual principle. At the request of the OK VKP (b) and the NKVD of Crimea, the commander of the troops of the Far Eastern Military District and the leadership of the NKVD of the USSR allocated and urgently delivered 5 Polish Mauser rifles, Romanian Manlycher rifles, and British English Li-Anfield rifles, Japanese - “Arisaka”, the old Russians - “Berdan.” If the Polish “Mausers” and the Romanian “Manlicher” were suitable for the partisans, the English “Anfield” and the old Russian and American “Berdan” had big problems with the repair and supply of ammunition.
          The same applies to the old Lewis, Shosha, Vickers, machine guns, the times of the 1st World War. In the lists of weapons of the 184th Infantry Division there are such exotic things as machine guns made by Gibbs private firm. The weapons were taken by the Red Army troops as trophies during the Bessarabian operation, conflicts in the Far East, and the internment of the Polish army.
        2. hohol95
          hohol95 18 March 2018 22: 28
          0
          The only information from the Internet:
          In addition, one KKY-2 was captured by Soviet troops during the conflict in Mongolia and was subsequently tested at the Air Force Research Institute.
  19. serg.shishkov2015
    serg.shishkov2015 18 March 2018 06: 27
    +1
    Thank you VO, even though I keep my brain in tone a little, I got numb from parcels, parcels and small packets and degraded to indecentness, I even forgot how to write competently,
  20. Botanik Medveddev
    Botanik Medveddev 28 February 2019 16: 20
    0
    "Since the ammunition was simply clamped in the tape, the principle of feeding cartridges into the chamber did not change, the ammunition was simply pushed forward from the plate by the bolt. The plate itself crawled out from the left side of the weapon and simply fell out after using all the cartridges in it. The magazines were loaded by insertion. plates with cartridges alternately, without disassembling the "disk" "
    The author, a collective farmer, you pulled up the word - a parasite "just" !!