Errors of the German shipbuilding. The armored cruiser "Blucher". H.2

186
Having considered in the previous article the situation in which the project of the “big cruiser” “Blucher” was born, we will take a closer look at what the Germans did for the ship.

Artillery

Of course, the main caliber "Blucher" was a big step forward compared with the artillery "Scharnhorst" and "Gneisenau." The Blucher guns had the same caliber, but were more powerful than those obtained by the previous German armored cruisers. The Scharnhorst installed 210-mm SK L / 40 С / 01, firing 108 kg with a projectile with an initial speed of 780 m / s. The Scharnhorst turret systems had an elevation angle of 30 hail, which ensured the firing range of 87 (according to other data, 88) kbt. With casemate installations, things were worse, because all other things being equal, their maximum angle of vertical guidance was only 16 degrees, which allowed them to shoot only at 66-67 kbt.

The ammunition included armor-piercing and high-explosive shells, and with the content of their explosives, the situation was somewhat confusing. As far as the author could figure out, initially an armor-piercing projectile, which was a steel disc, was relied on 210-mm SK L / 40. generally not containing explosive and high explosive, with 2,95 kg of black powder. But later, new projectiles were released, which had an 3,5 kg explosives in an armor-piercing and 6,9 kg in a high-explosive.

The Blucher SK L / 45 cannons fired the same projectiles as the Scharnhorst cannons, but they were informed by a much greater initial velocity - 900 m / s. Therefore, despite the fact that the elevation angle of the blucher’s tower installations was the same as that of the Scharnhorst (30 hail), the firing range of the blucher was 103 KBT. The increased initial speed gave the “Blucher” cannons a “bonus” to armor penetration; in addition, it can be assumed that the control of the “Blucher” tower installations was easier than the 210-mm Scharnhorst X-guns and tower guns.

The same was observed for 150-mm guns - six 150-mm SK L / 40 guns were installed on the Scharnhorst, the 40 speed of m / s was reported to the 800 kg projectile, and eight 150-mm SK L / 45 on the Blucher; firing 45,3 kg with projectiles with an initial speed of 835 m / s. In the years of the 1 world sk L / 40, the 44,9 kg (and even the 51 kg) artillery shells received, but, of course, with a corresponding drop in the initial velocity. The six-inch batteries of both cruisers were located approximately at the same height from the waterline (4,43-4,47 m for Scharnhorst and 4,25 m for Blucher), and in the range of the Blucher gun was also slightly lost - having an elevation angle of just 20 hail against 27 hail by " Scharnhorst ”, they shot at 72,5 cable, while“ Scharnhorst ”- at 74-75 KBT. As for the anti-mine artillery, the Scharnhorst had 18 88-mm SK L / 45 caliber guns, Blucher carried the 16 88-mm SK L / 45 much more powerful. But generally speaking, against destroyers of the prewar era, both of them were frankly weak - the real mine artillery of the cruisers was their 150-mm battery.

Thus, against the background of the previous project, the artillery "Blucher" looks just fine. But if you compare the fire power of the "Blucher" with the latest armored cruisers built in different countries, the German ship looks like the perfect outsider.

The fact is that with rare exceptions, other powers have come to the type of cruiser having 4 guns in 234-305-mm caliber and 8-10 guns in 190-203-mm caliber. What is the 254-mm artillery system? This is the weight of the 225,2-231 kg with an initial speed of 823 m / s (USA) to 870 m / s (Italy) and even 899 m / s (Russia), which means equal or greater firing range, much better armor penetration and where how more significant explosive impact. Armor-piercing 225,2 kg, the Rurik II projectile carried about the same amount of explosives as the German 210-mm - 3,9 kg (more by 14,7%), but the Russian high-explosive projectile was more than four times as high as the German - 28,3 kg against 6,9 kg !



In other words, the weight of the "Blucher" onboard salvo is eight 210-mm shells with a total weight of 864 kg, although it is insignificant, but still lost to those of 254-mm guns only of any "254-mm" cruiser, and even "Rurik" with the most light shells (compared to guns in the USA and Italy) had 900,8 kg. But at the same time in the four high-explosive shells of “Rurik” there were 113,2 kg of explosives, and in eight 210-mm Germans only 55,2 kg. If you go to armor-piercing, then the payoff on explosives in the side salvo was behind the German cruiser (28 kg versus 15,6), but one should not forget that the Russian 254-mm projectiles had much better armor penetration. In other words, the main caliber of “Blucher” cannot be considered equal to only 254-mm cannons of Russian, American or Italian cruisers, but the same “Rurik”, besides 254-mm guns, had four 203-mm guns in the side salvo of which the 210-mm German gun was not too inferior. The Russian 203-mm projectile was a bit heavier - 112,2 kg, had a lower initial speed (807 m / s), but at the same time significantly outperformed its German “opponent” in explosives, having 12,1 kg in a semi-armor shell and 15 kg - in a high-explosive projectile. Thus, the Rurik side salvo of four 203-mm and the same number of 254-mm guns had a mass of 1 349,6 kg shells, which was 1,56 times the mass of the Blucher-guns 210-mm guns. The explosives content in the volley when using armor-piercing and semi-armor-piercing 203-mm shells (as it was not foreseen for Russian 203-mm cannon armor-piercing shells), the explosive mass in the Rurik salvo was 64 kg, and when using high-explosive shells - 173,2 kg, against 28 kg and 55,2 kg from Blucher, respectively.

Here, of course, it can be argued that the “Blucher” in the onboard salvo would have four 150-mm guns, but then it is worth remembering about ten RNHRs on each side, which, by the way, were said to have even a large firing range than the German "six-inch".

“Blucher” in firepower was inferior not only to “Rurik”, but also to Italian “Pisa”. The latter, having quite powerful 254-mm guns, also had 190-mm tools for developing 1908 g, which were somewhat weaker than domestic 203-mm, but were nevertheless comparable in their capabilities to Blucher's 210-mm guns. “Half-way through” “Pisa” fired 90,9 kg with projectiles with an initial speed of 864 m / s. Why are there! Even the weakest artillery of all the 254-mm armored cruisers is the American Tennessee, and he had an advantage over the Blucher, contrasting his four 210-mm cannons with a 254 projectile mass in a side salvo of his 231-mm guns and having at the same time the double superiority in six-inch. About the Japanese monsters "Ibuki" and "Kurama", with their four 305-mm and four 203-mm in the side salvo there is nothing to say - their superiority in firepower over the German cruiser was completely overwhelming.



As for the English cruisers of the Minotaur type, their 234-mm guns were remarkable, but still, in terms of their combat capabilities, they did not reach the 254-mm guns of the cruisers of the United States, Italy and Russia. Nevertheless, they also excelled in combat power 210-mm German guns (172,4 kg projectile with an initial speed 881 m / s), and in addition, it should be noted that four such tools from the Minotaur in the side volley supplemented five 190 -mm guns with excellent characteristics, capable of producing 90,7 kg projectile with an initial speed of 862 m / s. In general, the “Minotaurs”, of course, surpassed “Blucher” in firepower, although this superiority was not as significant as that of “Rurik” or “Pisa”.

The only of the “last” armored cruisers of the world’s leading maritime powers, which was apparently inferior to the “Blucher” in terms of artillery, was the French “Waldeck Rousseau”. Yes, he carried 14 main-caliber guns and had an advantage over the Blucher in the side salvo for one barrel, but at the same time his old 194-mm guns fired only 86 kg with projectiles with a very low initial speed 770 m / s.



Thus, in terms of firepower, in comparison with other armored cruisers of the world, the “Blucher” occupies the unimportant last but one place. Its only advantage over other cruisers was the uniformity of the main caliber, which simplified the shooting at long distances, compared to the two calibers on the cruisers of the USA, England, Italy, etc., but the lag in the quality of artillery systems was so great that doubt the positive aspect could not be decisive.

As for the fire control system, in this regard, "Blucher" in German navy was a real pioneer. He was the first in the German navy to receive a three-legged mast, a centralized fire control system and a central artillery fire control machine. However, all this was installed on the cruiser not during construction, but during later upgrades.

Reservation

To the great joy of all domestic lovers of the naval stories Muzhenikov V. in his monograph “The Armored Cruisers“ Scharnhorst ”,“ Gneisenau ”and“ Blucher ”” gave detailed descriptions of the booking of these ships. Alas, to our disappointment, the description is so confusing that it is almost impossible to understand the system of protection of these three ships, but we still try to do it.

So, the length of the "Blucher" on the waterline was 161,1 m., The maximum - 162 m. (On this occasion, there are minor differences in the sources). From the stem and almost to the stern bow, the ship covered the armored deck, located “stepwise”, on three levels. For the duration of 25,2 m from the stem, an armor-shell was placed at 0,8 m below the waterline, then over the length of 106,8 m - one meter above the waterline, and further, for another 22,8 m - at 0,15 m below the waterline. The remaining 7,2 m deck armor is not protected. These three decks were interconnected by vertical transverse armored partitioning, the thickness of which was 80-mm between the middle and aft sections and, probably, the same number between the middle and fore sections.

Surprisingly, but the fact is that it is completely unclear from the descriptions of Muzhenikov whether Blucher had bevels or all three armored decks were horizontal. Most likely, there were still bevels - in the end, they were in the previous type of armored cruisers, and in the subsequent cruisers of the "Blucher" linear cruisers. At the same time, Muzhenikov writes that the Blucher reservation scheme was similar to the Scharnhorst, with the exception of a slight increase in the thickness of the armor belt. In this case, the middle section of the armored form, rising above the waterline at 1 meter, turned into bevels, descending to the lower edge of the armored belt located at 1,3 m below the waterline, but unfortunately there is no clarity with the fore and aft sections of the armored decks. The thickness of the decks and bevels, alas, Mujeniki also does not report, limited only by the phrase that "the total thickness of the armor plates of the deck decks in different parts was 50-70 mm." One can only guess whether the thickness of the armor was only the above-described armor decks, or whether the 50-70 mm is given as the sum of the thicknesses of the armor, battery, and upper decks.

The author of this article had the following impression: the thickness of the “stepped” armored decks and its bevels probably corresponded to those of the Scharnhorst, which were 40-55 mm, and this thickness includes both the armor and the steel flooring of the deck on top of which . Above the armored deck at the "Blucher" housed the battery (on which stood 150-mm guns) deck, and above it - the upper deck. At the same time, the battery deck did not have armor, but its thickness varied from 8 inside the casemate, to 12 mm outside the casemate, and at the location of the 150-mm guns - 16 mm or maybe 20 mm (Husbands writes that in these places the battery deck consisted of three layers, but does not report their thickness, from the context it can be assumed that it was 8 + 4 + 4 or 8 + 4 + 8 mm).

But the upper deck "Blucher" had a reservation over the casemates of 150-mm guns, but alas, except for the fact of its presence, Hubs did not report anything. By the way, if we assume that she had an 15-mm armor layer laid on top of the shipbuilding steel (something similar describes the Slaughter for the Scharnhorst), then we get the 40-55 mm armor deck + 15 mm upper deck above the deck armor dungeon that as if the specified Muzhenikov 55-70 mm cumulative protection.

The armor belt stretched almost the entire length of the ship, leaving only 6,3 m along the waterline at the stern itself unprotected, but was very different in thickness, height and depth under the waterline. Machine and boiler rooms covered 180 mm armor plates that had a height of 4,5 m (data may be slightly inaccurate), towering above the waterline at 3,2 m with normal draft and reaching the battery deck with the upper edge. Accordingly, this part of the armored belt went under water to 1,3 m. Very powerful protection for the armored cruiser, but armor belt 180 mm thick was wiped only on 79,2 m (49,16% of the length of the waterline), covering only the engine and boiler rooms. From 180 mm of armor plates to the bow and stern, only 80 mm of armored belt of reduced height went - to the stern it towered 2 m above water, to the nose - to 2,5 m and only at the very stem (approximately 7,2 m from it) rose to 3,28 m above the water.

The bottom edge of all these armored belts was located as follows: from the stem and towards the stern during the first 7,2 meters it went to 2 meters under the waterline, then “increased” to 1,3 meters and continued like this throughout the remaining length of the nasal 80 mm belt and 180 mm belt its entire length, but further (aft 80 mm belt) gradually rose from 1,3 to 0,75 m under the waterline. Since the armor plates in the 80 mm feed did not reach the stern stem a little, a stern traverse was provided, which had the same 80 mm armor.

The described booking scheme demonstrates weakness in protecting the extremities, because outside the boiler rooms and machine rooms, the onboard protection of Blucher looks extremely inadequate, not stronger than the British armored cruisers (80 mm armor belt and 40, maximum - 55 mm bevel, against 76-102 mm belt with 50 mm bevels from the British), but still it is not quite so. The fact is that, as far as it is possible to understand the descriptions of Muzhenikov, the 180 mm section of the armor belt was closed with the same 180 mm by traverses. But these traverses were located not perpendicular to the board, but obliquely, to the barbetas of the bow and stern towers of 210-mm guns, about the same as it was on the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau cruisers.



However, it should be borne in mind that the "inclined traverse" "Scharnhorst" took place over the bevels and armored decks, and probably the same thing happened on the "Blucher". In this case, there was a vulnerability at the level of a meter above and below the waterline.



In which the “slanting traverses” of the “Blucher” were not defended from enemy hits, and the cellar cover was limited to 80 mm by armor belts and 40-55 mm by bevels.

On the battery deck (that is, on top of the 180 mm of the Blucher armored belt), there was a 51,6 meter casemate for eight 150 mm guns. The armor plates defending the dungeon along the sides had a thickness of 140 mm and relied on the lower, 180 mm plates, so that, in fact, throughout the above-mentioned 51,6 m the vertical side protection reached the upper deck. From the stern, the casemate closed the 140 mm with a traverse located perpendicular to the board, but the traverse was inclined in the nose, like the citadel of the 180 mm, but did not reach the bow tower of the main caliber. As we said above, the floor of the casemate (battery deck) did not have protection, but from above the casemate was protected by armor, alas - of unspecified thickness. We assumed that it was 15 mm armor on steel armor.
The "Blucher" towers had front and side plates with a thickness of 180 mm and 80 mm in the back wall, presumably (right, alas, Husbands did not write about this) the barbet had 180 mm protection. The forward conning tower had a 250 mm wall and a 80 mm roof, aft - respectively 140 and 30 mm. On the Blucher, for the first time on armored cruisers in Germany, 35 mm anti-torpedo bulkheads were installed, stretching from the very bottom to the armored deck.

In general, one can say that the “big cruiser” armored defense of the “big cruiser” was very moderate. The armored cruisers of Germany were not at all champions of security, and only on Scharnhorst and Gneisenau they reached the world average. "Blucher" was even better booked, but it cannot be said that his defense somehow stood out against the background of his "classmates."



Like it or not, 180 mm belt + either 45 or 55 mm bevel does not have a fundamental advantage over the 152 mm belt and 50 mm bevel of the British Minotaurs, 127 mm of American Tennessee. Of all the armored cruisers of the world, the Russian “Rurik” with its 102 mm belt and 152 mm was slightly inferior to the “Blucher”, but here it should be noted that the Russian defense was much longer than the German one, protecting the barbety points of the 38-mm towers inclusive. The author knows little about booking armored cruisers of the Amalfi type, but it was based on the 254 mm belt, over which the 203-mm upper belt was located for a considerable distance, so it is doubtful that the Italian cruisers were inferior in protection to Blucher. The Japanese Ibuki had almost the same 178 mm of armor belt with 178 mm bevels as the German cruiser, but they also protected more waterlines than the 50 mm belt from Blucher.

Germanic Dreadnoughts and battlecruisers of the First World War are deservedly considered the standard of armor, such impenetrable floating fortresses - which they have repeatedly proven in battle. But alas, all this does not apply to the "Blucher". In principle, if the Germans would have found an opportunity to protect the 180 mm with an armor-belt of the side of their last "big cruiser", it could probably be said that his defense is somewhat superior to that of other cruisers of the world (with the possible exception of the Japanese), but That did not happen. And in general, “Blucher” should be considered a ship protected at the level of its “classmates” - not worse, but, in general, not better than them.

Power plant.

In the ship's power industry, the Germans showed amazing traditionalism - not only the first, but even the second series of their dreadnoughts (the type "Helgoland") carried steam engines and coal-fired boilers instead of turbines and oil fuel. To be fair, it should be noted that in Germany some of the best (if not the best) steam engines of the world were created. As for coal, then, firstly, in those years no one yet risked building large warships whose power plants would work entirely on oil. But there were more weighty reasons: firstly, the Germans considered coal pits to be an important element of ship protection, and secondly, there was a shortage of coal mines in Germany, but with oil fields everything was much worse. In the event of war, the "oil" fleet of Germany could only rely on previously accumulated oil reserves, which could be replenished only from outside supplies, but where could they come from under the British blockade?

"Blucher" received three steam engines, steam for which provided 18 boilers (12 - great performance and 6 - small). The power rating of the power plant was 32 000 hp, under the contract the cruiser had to develop 24,8 knots. On the test machine forced, having achieved a record 43 262 HP "Blucher" while developing 25,835 bonds. In general, despite the use of already obsolete steam engines, in general, the Blucher power plant deserves only praise. She effectively worked not only on the dimensional mile, but also in the course of everyday use - it is interesting that Blucher, acting jointly with the battlecruisers Hochseeflotte, always maintained the speeds set for him, but Fon der Tann sometimes lagged behind. Normal fuel capacity is 900 t, full 2510 t (according to other data - 2 206 t). Blucher, unlike Scharnhorst and Gneuizenau, was not considered a cruiser of the colonial service, but had a range of even more than they were - 6 600 miles on 12 nodes or 3 520 miles on 18 nodes. Scharnhorst, according to various sources, had 12 5 - 120 6 miles on 500 nodes.

It can be stated that on both sides of the North Sea they came to the conclusion that it was necessary to increase the speed of the “big” cruisers to 25 knots, and in this (and, alas, the only) respect, “Blucher” was not inferior to the newest British “Invinsible”. And speed is the only parameter in which the German cruiser had an advantage over the last armored cruisers of other powers. The most heavily armed Japanese "Ibuki" and the following domestic "Rurik" developed the order of the 21 node, the Tenessi 22 bonds, the British Minotaurs 22,5-23 bonds, the Waldeck Rousso 23 bonds, the Italian Amalfi cruisers ”(“ Pisa ”) gave out 23,6-23,47 bonds, but, of course, no one came close to the phenomenal“ Blucher ”25,8 ties.

So, what do we have in the dry residue?

The general logic of the development of naval technology and, to a certain extent, the experience of the Russian-Japanese war, led to the emergence of the last generation of armored cruisers. Those were “Tennessee” in the USA (for the sake of justice - the first “Tennessee” was actually laid in 1903 g, so, although the American cruiser was not the best, but he was the first, so he can be forgiven) “Warrior "And" Minotaur "in England," Pisa "in Italy," Waldeck Russo "in France," Tsukuba "and" Ibuki "in Japan and" Rurik "in Russia.

Germany on this turn of the world cruising race managed to be late. While all countries were laying their cruisers, in Germany they started building the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, which looked great in the background of some Iwate or Good Hope, but were completely uncompetitive to the Minotaur. or "Pisa". The Germans began the construction of their last-generation armored cruiser, the “last generation.” Regardless of where it’s considered the beginning of the creation of “Blucher”, from the date of laying (1907 g) or from the date of the beginning of the preparation of the building berth for construction (the autumn before 1906 g), the “Blucher” was truly the last because their armored cruisers in 1903-1905's.

Under these conditions, the proverb about “slowly harnessing and driving fast” is recalled, because, since the Germans started building with such a delay, they had the opportunity to design if not the best, then at least one of the world's best armored cruisers. Instead, the slipway of the state shipyard in Kiel spawned something extremely strange.

Among other armored cruisers of the world, “Blucher” received the highest speed, armor protection “slightly above average”, and perhaps the weakest artillery. Usually, “Blucher” is perceived as a ship with weakened artillery, but stronger armor than its “opponents”, which results from comparing the thickness of the main armored belts - 180 mm from “Blucher” against 127-152 mm from most other cruisers. But even in this case, for some reason, usually no one remembers the 178 mm armor of the Japanese and 203 mm armor of Italian cruisers.

In fact, given that:

1) Vertical armor should be taken into account together with the bevels of the armored deck, and in this case the difference between the 50 mm bevel + 152 mm belt of the British cruisers and approximately 50 mm bevel and 180 mm Blucher armor is minimal.

2) The 180 mm section of the Blucher belt was very short, and covered only the engine and boiler rooms.

We can confidently say that the armor of the "Blucher" did not have any noticeable advantage even over cruisers with 152 mm armor belts.

Usually, “Blucher” is reproached with the fact that it, being officially laid one year after the start of the construction of “Invincibles”, could not resist them. But suppose for a moment that a miracle happened and the class of battle cruisers was never born. What tasks could the Kaiserlmarine be solved by the “big” cruiser “Blucher”?

As we said earlier, the Germans saw two tasks for their cruisers - the colonial service (under it were built Fürst Bismarck, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau) as well as reconnaissance during battleships of battleships (for which all other German armored cruisers were created). Did it make sense to send "Blucher" to the ocean communications of England? Obviously not, because the English "hunters" obviously surpassed him in armament. True, the "Blucher" was faster, but if you rely on speed, wouldn't it have been easier to build several high-speed light cruisers with the same money? A heavy raider makes sense when it is able to destroy the “hunter”, but what is the point of the armored cruiser, which is initially weaker than its “beaters”? Thus, we see that “Blucher” is absolutely not optimal for ocean raiding.

Service at the squadron? Alas, it's still sadder. The fact is that already in 1906 r for everyone, including in Germany, it was obvious that armadillos are becoming a thing of the past, and in the future the squadrons of dreadnoughts will be foaming the seas. But could "Blucher" serve as a scout in such a squadron?

Arguing in the abstract - yes, it could. Somewhere in the Pacific Ocean, in good weather and with excellent visibility, where you can track the movement of the enemy squadron, being from it miles in 12 or further and without being substituted by the fire of the heavy guns of the new lords of the seas. In this case, the high speed of the “Blucher” would allow him to keep the distance he needed and watch the enemy without being substituted for the blow.

But even in this case, the construction of the “Blucher” is far from optimal, because enemy scouts with their own squadron are usually not welcome and would probably want to drive it away. In this case, any cruiser with 254-mm guns got a big advantage over the Blucher - such a cruiser could effectively hit the German ship from a greater distance than the Blucher 210-gun. As a result, the commander of the German "big" cruiser remained a "rich" choice - either to continue observation, leading the battle at an unfavorable distance for his ship, or get close to the enemy cruiser and get hit by heavy dreadnought cannons, or completely retreat, disrupting the combat mission .

But the ship is not created for combat in a spherical vacuum. The “field of fate” for the Kaiserlichmarin was to be the North Sea with its bad weather and fog. Under these conditions, the scout in the squadron always risked unexpectedly stumble upon the head enemy dreadnoughts, finding them six or seven miles away. In this case, the salvation was to disappear in the fog as soon as possible, or that there would still limit visibility. But the dreadnoughts were much more powerful than the old battleships, and even in the shortest time could turn a high-speed scout into a flaming wreck. Therefore, the “big” German cruiser performing the reconnaissance mission in the squadron needed very good armor protection that would allow him to survive short-term contact with the English Dreadnoughts 305-mm guns. However, as we see, "Blucher" did not possess anything of the kind.

Now suppose that the author still made a mistake in his postulates, and the Germans designed “Blucher” in response to misinformation that the alleged “Invincibles” are the same “Dreadnoughts”, but only with 234-mm artillery. But remember the Invinsib armor.

Errors of the German shipbuilding. The armored cruiser "Blucher". H.2


Their long 152 mm armor belt, which defended the board right up to the fore and aft towers of the main caliber, with the 50 mm bevel and 64 mm cellar protection gave very good protection, and the author of this article would not risk saying that the “short” 180 mm armor belt “Blucher” protected the German ship is better - we can rather say that the protection of the Invincible and Blucher are about the same. But at the same time, if the Invincible had had an 8-mm gun in the onboard salvo of the 234, it would have been much stronger than the Blucher - and in speed these ships would be equal.

The construction of "Blucher" was a mistake of the German fleet, not because he could not resist the Invincibles (more precisely, not only because of this), but because even in their absence he was weaker than other armored cruisers of the world and without them could be able to carry out the tasks assigned to this class of ships in the German fleet in some effective way.

The ending should be!

Previous articles of the cycle:

Errors of the German shipbuilding. Big cruiser "Blucher"
186 comments
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  1. +5
    6 March 2018 15: 59
    + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
    1. 0
      7 March 2018 10: 14
      Another "masterpiece", not worth much attention.
      Particularly striking is the categorical nature of the assessments, "the mistake of German shipbuilding."
      I do not understand what the author does not like in Blucher?
      It was not linear, but was rounded. And so what?
      Well-protected and armed cruiser with a very good speed. Designed specifically for cruising (raider) operations.
      Did he give in to Invincible? Yes, slightly and in some ways inferior. But these are ships of different classes. For different, built, if it is not clear. Therefore, he was glad of advantages over the same Invincible. Those that were needed by the ships of his destination.
      And the technical level of Germany in those years was inferior to the British.

      Nevertheless, I am once again convinced that the author does not know the basics of naval affairs. And he naively thinks that Blucher was built to fight with something like Invincible. Those. that it’s like a battle cruiser, it’s just built incorrectly. And it was built in order to screw from Invincible, at a meeting. To fade. Firing back. And continue to sink cargo ships.
      Therefore, the discussion of the "article" is empty. Nothing to discuss. The underlying message is incorrect.
      I feel that soon it will come to a discussion that "this submarine is noticeably inferior in cannon armament to an anti-submarine ship. And there is no armor either - that's why this is a bad submarine. Shipbuilding error."
      1. +1
        7 March 2018 15: 27
        Quote: wer2
        Another "masterpiece", not worth much attention.
        Particularly striking is the categorical nature of the assessments, "the mistake of German shipbuilding."


        Set out your only correct version. But only, please, without PT caliber in 65 mm.
        1. -1
          7 March 2018 16: 15
          Quote: NF68
          Set out your only correct version.

          Yes, you can?
          Thank you, master.
          1. 0
            7 March 2018 19: 35
            Quote: wer2
            Quote: NF68
            Set out your only correct version.

            Yes, you can?
            Thank you, master.


            Hurry until you are again banned.
            1. 0
              7 March 2018 19: 55
              Quote: NF68
              Hurry until you are again banned.

              Why did you decide that you should ban me? Are you Grandma Wang?
              Are you not an hour clone of Chelyabinsk Andrey? He, too, with some Nikolai at one time molested me. Obviously confused with someone.
              1. 0
                7 March 2018 20: 19
                Why did you decide that you should ban me? Are you Grandma Wang?


                It is difficult to confuse such a familiar character with anyone.

                Are you not an hour clone of Chelyabinsk Andrey? He, too, with some Nikolai at one time molested me. Obviously confused with someone.


                Did he confuse you with Kolya 65 mm.? And not only him.
                1. -1
                  7 March 2018 20: 44
                  Quote: NF68
                  It is difficult to confuse such a familiar character with anyone.

                  Obviously a clone of Andrei Chelyabinsk.
                  1. +2
                    8 March 2018 00: 39
                    Kolya, we’re wacky again? :))))
                    1. +4
                      8 March 2018 12: 20
                      And now, for the umpteenth time, a man is blazed by his manner of speech and idiotic classifications of ships that have nothing to do with reality, but he stubbornly continues to build each time innocence and "I'm not me, and we are not us" ... It's all the same that smeared with feces, but stubbornly continue to claim that it stinks of neighboring Pebbles. Impressive, so to speak.
                      1. -1
                        8 March 2018 13: 53
                        Quote: arturpraetor
                        idiotic classifications of ships that have nothing to do with reality

                        Another ignoramus. He doesn’t know that there used to be armored cruisers-raiders. Well, as if there were Rurik, Russia and Gromoboy in the Russian fleet. In his opinion.
                        Yes, and one more thing. It would not have been there the battleships-cruisers Peresvet and Oslyabya. These with Blucher are generally practically one in one. The difference is only in the technological level.
                        True, Russian products were designed and built in Russia. Therefore, they were practically non-operational "by specialty." But that's another story.
                        Quote: arturpraetor
                        It's like smearing with feces, but stubbornly continue to claim that it stinks of neighboring Pebbles.

                        A specialist with great experience is felt in your words.
                        Do you often practice this? Do you ever wash off feces or wait for them to fall off themselves?
                      2. +1
                        8 March 2018 16: 53
                        Quote: arturpraetor
                        And now, for the 100500 time, a person is fired by his manner of speech and idiotic classifications of ships,


                        100500 times will probably not be enough. This is all 99999999999999999. And always the same thing.
            2. 0
              9 March 2018 02: 40
              Quote: NF68
              Hurry until you are again banned.


              Wow, like Kolya is seething.
              1. 0
                9 March 2018 14: 36
                [quote Wow, how Kolya is seething. [/ quote]

                Hello, dear colleague. That's why he and Kolya.
  2. +3
    6 March 2018 17: 12
    Oh, why are you like that, according to "Blucher" then ...))
    I have said many times that the Blucher I like how the logical development of the concept of "all-big-guns" for armored cruisers, and I consider it a logical development of this class and an adequate version of the early battle cruiser. But I have to agree with the weapons - when the rest of the BrKr had already gone on to increase the caliber, the German ships remained with 210-mm guns, which was characteristic of their ships of that time (from destroyers to armadillos and dreadnought, they were all inferior in caliber to their modern "colleagues" " from other countries). And this characteristic ship ruined - if 280-mm guns for armadillos and 305-mm for dreadnoughts were still enough (albeit very conditionally), then for modern BrKr 210-mm guns were already few. Now, if the 240-mm guns were put on the Blucher, there would have been a completely different conversation. But this is - to the alternative ...
    1. +1
      6 March 2018 20: 25
      Well and still "steam substitutes to replace turbines."
  3. 0
    6 March 2018 17: 28
    Yeah, the Germans gave a blunder here. It turned out neither. Just put a good steam engine on the ship ...
  4. 0
    6 March 2018 17: 29
    But drowned him, I remember, the Norwegian coastal battery, planted in it
    dozens of shells?
    1. +8
      6 March 2018 17: 32
      belay This is actually about the Blucher PMV, and the Norwegians drowned the Blucher WWII, which is like the Hipper.
      1. +5
        6 March 2018 18: 04
        Oops! I =fool Mixed up. Thanks for the amendment. drinks
    2. +2
      6 March 2018 18: 03
      Quote: voyaka uh
      But drowned him, I remember, the Norwegian coastal battery, planted in it
      dozens of shells?

      Alex, he was drowned by the "cats" of Admiral Fisher at Dogger Bank. And although the author does not put this "Blucher" in the standards of armament in comparison with his classmates, the German was not an example better than his peers in England from Jutland
      1. 0
        8 March 2018 23: 23
        However, the theory of unlucky ship names in the case of both "Blucher" is confirmed.
  5. +2
    6 March 2018 18: 30
    Blucher could help the German fleet only in one case - if it were sold to Turkey, and another “Seidlitz type” was built with the money raised. Then it would be bad for everyone - and for our Black Sea Fleet too (((
    1. +1
      6 March 2018 18: 34
      Quote: Trapper7
      if it were sold to Turkey, and another “Seidlitz type” was built with the money raised

      Not enough for the Seidlitz.
      Quote: Trapper7
      Then it would be bad for everyone - and for our Black Sea Fleet too (((

      In my opinion, if Blucher appears in the Black Sea instead of Geben, the Black Sea Fleet will benefit from this - Geben was really there, and it was faster and more powerful than Blucher, and since Geben managed to control, then " Blucher "and even more so succeed.
      1. +2
        6 March 2018 18: 37
        The fact is that in such a situation it could very well turn out that both Geben and Blucher would be on the Black Sea, and this is a completely different alignment of forces. Of course, you won’t put him against the battleships of the Black Sea Fleet - they’ll drown him, but he was quite suitable for himself as a quick bully.
        1. +4
          6 March 2018 19: 12
          So "Goeben" is even more fast-moving (according to the passport) bully smile Of course, the Black Sea Fleet would have been in a difficult situation in this case, but only until the time the dreadnought was introduced. And there, what is happening with “Blucher”, which is without - the situation is the same: the Turks-Germans are in the minority, and with poor maintenance in Istanbul, they gradually lose their combat effectiveness, including their speed. But “Blucher” with “Katka” or “Lizka” can’t be met in this case at all, the Russian 470kg shells are not British, they will destroy the German already at a run.
  6. +1
    6 March 2018 18: 32
    Judging by the text of the article and the fact that the next article will be the last, the mistakes of German shipbuilding will end on the cruiser Von der Tann.
  7. 0
    6 March 2018 19: 10
    Thanks for continuing the cycle! We look forward to an equally interesting next series!
  8. +3
    6 March 2018 19: 18
    Article plus, at the same time, the title and the related (or vice versa) outline of the article seem far-fetched / artificial. Should we call mistakes the examples of equipment (or something else) that are inferior in some characteristics (and not all) to those similar in their field of use? "... A mistake is an unintentional, forgetful deviation from the right actions, deeds, thoughts ..." In other words, how to do it is known, but somehow it happened by chance. But the Germans hardly expected the appearance of Invincible, which by its appearance had already made all armored cruisers a “mistake”. True, the author of the article in his previous articles, Invincible, also designated a mistake wassat Just the same error on error. Yes, Blucher did not become a reference model of an armored cruiser (perhaps a big one?), But the basis of his appearance was the assumptions formed by the Germans about the further development of armored cruisers. So they made a mistake in their assumptions.
    1. 0
      7 March 2018 09: 52
      Quote: sevtrash
      In other words, how to do it is known, but somehow it happened by chance. But the Germans hardly expected the appearance of Invincible, which by its appearance had already made all armored cruisers a “mistake”.

      And what does “Invincible” have to do with it? The author directly and unequivocally writes in the article that the Blucher was a mistake already because it was inferior even to the last generation of armored cruisers laid down in 1903-1905. - except perhaps the French.
      The construction of "Blucher" was a mistake of the German fleet, not because he could not resist the Invincibles (more precisely, not only because of this), but because even in their absence he was weaker than other armored cruisers of the world and without them could be able to carry out the tasks assigned to this class of ships in the German fleet in some effective way.

      Quote: sevtrash
      True, the author of the article in his previous articles, Invincible, also designated a mistake

      But they have one mistake: the ship’s security does not correspond to the assigned tasks.
      But the ship is not created for battle in a spherical vacuum. The “Sea of ​​Fate” for the Kaiserlichmarin was to become the North Sea with its cloudy weather and fogs. Under these conditions, the reconnaissance officer at the squadron always risked to unexpectedly stumble upon the enemy head dreadnought, finding them six or seven miles away. In this case, the salvation was to hide in the fog as soon as possible, or that there would still limit visibility. But the dreadnoughts were much more powerful than the old battleships and even in the shortest possible time could turn a high-speed reconnaissance into a flaming ruin. Therefore, the "big" German cruiser, performing the reconnaissance task at the squadron, needed very good armor protection, which could allow him to survive short-term contact with 305-mm guns of the English dreadnought.

      In the case of "iblov" armor protection just did not allow survive short-term contact with 280-305-mm guns of the German dreadnought.
      1. +1
        7 March 2018 10: 32
        Quote: Alexey RA
        The author directly and unequivocally writes in the article that the Blucher was a mistake already because it was inferior even to the last generation of armored cruisers laid down in 1903-1905. - except perhaps the French.

        This is because the author does not understand that cruisers are divided not according to their armor capacity or linearity, but according to their purpose.
        I remember I came across that the same author somewhere seriously claimed that the Stormbreaker in Port Arthur would noticeably strengthen the ships there.
        This is from the same series. An absolute misunderstanding of naval themes and specifics is evident.
        1. 0
          7 March 2018 11: 37
          Quote: wer2
          This is because the author does not understand that cruisers are divided not according to their armor capacity or linearity, but according to their purpose.

          So the question of the appointment of German BrKR in the article is also considered. And there for Blucher, too, everything is not very good.
          1. 0
            7 March 2018 16: 23
            Quote: Alexey RA
            So the question of the appointment of German BrKR in the article is also considered. And there for Blucher, too, everything is not very good.

            Well, what is being considered there?
            1. Blucher's service as part of the linear forces. He just was not built for this.
            2. The service of Blucher, ATTENTION, as watching the enemy squadron.
            This is clearly a new word in naval science. What for the Germans "watching" if they did not have "annihilating"? Those. there were no full-fledged linear forces. and certainly not in the ocean.
            And there again the mythical "scouts at the squadron." Which really never was even in sight. These are fiction "runet". Intelligence at the squadron engaged in advice notes. Sometimes, reconnaissance in battle, lin. cruisers or EDB class 2.
            Other "scouts at the squadron" knows only Runet. Illiterate part of it. Among which is Chelyabinsk Andrey.

            But just raiding the enemy’s communications, the author missed what Blucher was built for. Well, he does not know about this kind of war at sea, what will you do?
            1. +3
              7 March 2018 19: 58
              Quote: wer2
              And there again the mythical "scouts at the squadron." Which really never was even in sight. These are fiction "runet". Intelligence at the squadron engaged in advice notes. Sometimes, reconnaissance in battle, lin. cruisers or EDB class 2.
              Other "scouts at the squadron" knows only Runet. Illiterate part of it. Among which is Chelyabinsk Andrey.


              " In the eastern part of the Baltic Sea, exercises and a review of fleet ships took place. It consists of sixteen battleships (battleships) under the command of Vice Admirals von Holtzendorff and Schroder, 6 (six) armored and 6 (six) small cruisers make up his intelligence group under the command of Rear Admiral von Heeringer. The third squadron, consisting of eight old coastal defense ships, was commanded by Rear Admiral Pohl. "The maneuvers of the German fleet. 1909

              Cruisers have always been used for reconnaissance. In 1909, Germany began to practice tactics using reconnaissance detachments, pending the entry into service of linear (large armored) cruisers.
              1. +1
                7 March 2018 20: 10
                Quote: 27091965i
                Cruisers have always been used for reconnaissance.

                Quote: 27091965i
                In the eastern Baltic Sea

                The answer to your first phrase is given in the note itself.
                This is not an “open sea” fleet (not an ocean fleet). Therefore, armored and small cruisers, these forces are NOT included in these linear forces. This is the intelligence service of the base where the linear forces were based. In this case, the "intelligence service" (reconnaissance ships) it’s never been engaged in intelligence (in today's sense of the term) - these are watercraft. Big and small. Far and near. Armored and armored.
                The terminology has changed. It's like with the word "pioneer".
                1. +1
                  7 March 2018 20: 33
                  Quote: wer2
                  This is not an “open sea” fleet (not an ocean fleet)


                  Which ships were part of the German fleet in 1909?

                  Quote: wer2
                  these are ships of protection of the water area.


                  This English definition is used by them for part of their fleet, it is not worth it to apply to the German fleet. Different tasks.

                  Moreover, the “intelligence service” (reconnaissance ships) has never been engaged in intelligence (in the current sense of the term)


                  See the program for the construction of the French fleet 1905-1906. It gives a completely understandable definition of the scout cruiser. You can see what tasks were set for US cruisers such as "Chester".
                  1. +1
                    7 March 2018 20: 49
                    Quote: 27091965i
                    It gives a completely understandable definition of the scout cruiser.

                    Maybe it is given. But the reconnaissance cruisers are ships of the naval base. And not linear forces.
                    Once again, reconnaissance for line forces involved in advising. A "reconnaissance battle", lin. cruisers, and before them the 2nd class EDB. There have never been any other “reconnaissance cruisers” in the line forces. This is one of the runet fictions.
                    1. +1
                      7 March 2018 21: 13
                      Quote: wer2
                      A "reconnaissance battle", lin. cruisers, and before them the 2nd class EDB. There have never been any other “reconnaissance cruisers” in the line forces. This is one of Runet’s inventions.


                      This is another English definition in relation to armored cruisers, often given in 1903-1904. It sounded like this; " We built and are building ships of the 2nd rank (armadillos) with weakened protection and cruising qualities."
                      You seem to be interested in English shipbuilding.
                      1. +1
                        7 March 2018 22: 11
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        this is another English definition in relation to armored cruisers, often given in 1903-1904. It sounded like this; "We built and are building ships of the 2nd rank (armadillos) with weakened protection and cruising qualities."

                        I do not quite understand what you mean.
                        Armadillo, this is very vague. Like the "cruiser". Armadillos in those days were armored scouts, such as Bayan. And the 1st class EDB.
                        In addition, the British built the 2nd class EDB. Maybe you meant them? But this is by no means armored cruisers. This is such a kind of EDB.
                        I don’t know which ships can be called armored cruisers of the 2nd rank.
      2. +1
        7 March 2018 15: 59
        Quote: Alexey RA
        In the case of the "Ible", the armor protection in the same way did not allow to survive short-term contact with 280-305-mm guns of the German dreadnought.

        Well, the tasks of battlecruisers did not stand in the plane of a duel with battleships. The natural process of arms development. New patterns are created that, by their appearance, level the value of some previously created ones. So, those were sheer errors?
        "... The Blucher design was an outstanding achievement of German shipbuilding of that time. Compared to the previous Scharnhorst, the ship was a big step forward, and although it looked aesthetically better, it also had a more modern reservation system, a better arrangement of guns and engine installation ... "
        1. 0
          7 March 2018 16: 32
          Quote: sevtrash
          Well, the tasks of battlecruisers did not stand in the plane of a duel with battleships.

          And you remember the tasks of the LCR - they were in the article about "ibly."
          1) conducting intelligence;
          2) support for smaller reconnaissance cruisers;
          3) an independent service for the protection of trade and the destruction of enemy raiders-cruisers;
          4) urgent arrival and cover of any actions of the fleet;
          5) the pursuit of the retreating linear fleet of the enemy ... putting him, if possible, in a hopeless position, focusing fire on the lagging ships

          So, 4 out of 5 of these tasks directly or implicitly suggest the possibility of meeting with the enemy’s LC.
          1. +1
            8 March 2018 11: 05
            Somehow you very widely interpret the probability of meeting with battleships. Thus, we can say that if any ship goes to sea, then it is intended to meet with the battleship.
            Parks battle cruisers tasks:
            reconnaissance in battle;
            support and assistance to smaller reconnaissance cruisers;
            independent expeditions to surround enemy raiders;
            pursuit of the retreating fleet of the enemy and, if possible, placing him in a hopeless position by concentrating fire on the backward ships;
            rapid encirclement of the enemy during hostilities
            As you can see - there are no direct clashes with battleships. Not created for that.
            1. +2
              8 March 2018 23: 26
              Quote: sevtrash
              Somehow you very widely interpret the probability of meeting with battleships. Thus, we can say that if any ship goes to sea, then it is intended to meet with the battleship.
              .

              Hit the point right!
              Quite right - this is a vivid example when one's own “inventions” lead the author too far and too deeply.
              The author says (if in the bottom line) - he could not resist the dreadnought - everything, it means a mistake in shipbuilding. Well, that’s what it took the author to resist and simply describe Blucher, without his personal ideas and theories, would be an ideal readable article.
              1. +1
                9 March 2018 09: 08
                Quote: Varna
                Hit the point right!

                That is, the scout should not meet with the dreadnought at the squadron?
                Quote: Varna
                The author says (if in the bottom line) - he could not resist the dreadnought - everything, then a shipbuilding error

                About the fact that Blucher could not resist his classmates - did not read?
                1. +1
                  9 March 2018 12: 53
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  That is, the scout should not meet with the dreadnought at the squadron?

                  100 times they wrote to the author that the scouts at the squadron were advice notes. Or EDB 2 class / lin. cruisers. Scout cruisers were at VM bases. But they are not at all similar to Blucher. And nothing has changed.
                  Raider it. Armored Raider. The largest of all their diversity. And an armored raider should not meet with dreadnoughts. Their paths do not intersect. When used correctly, this raider.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  About the fact that Blucher could not resist his classmates - did not read?

                  What classmate is like? Blucher was not lin. cruiser. Therefore, they are not classmates for him, but "hunters" for him.
                  An amazing layman in matters of the Navy is this Chelyabinsk Andrey. Invented something about Blucher, which has nothing to do with reality, and let it "quit". Let's defame.
                  The normal ship for its purpose was Blucher. You can even say good.
  9. +3
    6 March 2018 19: 21
    Andrey, another plus! good hi
    "Blucher" if the mistake of the German fleet, then some pretty elegant. I personally like it a lot more than Invincibles.
    Personally, it seems to me that the uniformity of the GK is a greater plus than heterogeneity, albeit of a larger caliber (not the fact that it is longer-range than the German guns). And the Germans choose the battle distance in any case. I would not have climbed the Japanese and Invincibles, but you can compete with all your peers even with the same 254 mm cannons. England
    1. +3
      6 March 2018 21: 33
      Damn, I’ll finish the thought.
      I would not have climbed on the “Rurik”, because its artillery systems are comparable in terms of firing range at the Germans.
      But the British can safely smash their 234 mm guns 4 km less shoot. Americans, too, can be easily shpigovat - all the same, 8 trunks more weighty argument against 4. Even with the same percentage of hits due to rate of fire, the German hypothetically outperforms Tennessee. We don’t take Kraltsuzuz into account. The Italians ... Hypothetically, we also exclude 190mm long-range guns and butt.
      So not everything is so simple. It is the range of the German guns with a good SUAO, plus the choice of distance that may well have their say.
      I repeat, my personal opinion hi
      1. +1
        7 March 2018 09: 57
        Quote: Rurikovich
        So not everything is so simple. It is the range of the German guns with a good SUAO, plus the choice of distance that may well have their say.

        The problem is that on the Bluchera main theater, the distance is not dictated by the speed of the ship or the range of the guns, but by weather conditions. On average - 6-7 miles.
        But could the Blucher serve as a scout with such a squadron?
        Arguing in the abstract - yes, it could. Somewhere in the Pacific Ocean, in good weather and with excellent visibility, where you can track the movement of the enemy squadron, being from it miles in 12 or further and without being substituted by the fire of the heavy guns of the new lords of the seas. In this case, the high speed of the “Blucher” would allow him to keep the distance he needed and watch the enemy without being substituted for the blow.
        (...)
        But the ship is not created for battle in a spherical vacuum. The “Sea of ​​Fate” for the Kaiserlichmarin was to become the North Sea with its cloudy weather and fogs. Under these conditions, the reconnaissance officer at the squadron always risked to unexpectedly stumble upon the hostile enemy dreadnought, finding them six or seven miles away.
        1. +1
          7 March 2018 20: 18
          Quote: Alexey RA
          The problem is that on the Bluchera main theater, the distance is not dictated by the speed of the ship or the range of the guns, but by weather conditions. On average - 6-7 miles.

          I do not argue. But the Germans in their doctrines dispensed with much smaller calibers based on the conditions of the North Sea and the Baltic. Examples include an EBR line with a 240mm lead. Therefore, when switching to 280mm for EDBs, they themselves considered 210mm to be the normal GK caliber for armored cruisers. The British 305mm - 234mm, the Germans 280mm - 210mm. And the Blucher, in my personal opinion, was a victim of a 234mm disa for the Invincibles, the more the Germans themselves admit it. And for any Aglitz cruisers with 234mm guns and standard 152mm Blucher armor, a dangerous opponent hi
          1. 0
            9 March 2018 00: 01
            Quote: Rurikovich
            I do not argue. But the Germans in their doctrines dispensed with much smaller calibers based on the conditions of the North Sea and the Baltic.


            And in the end, the Germans were very wrong in this matter, and for a battleship like L-20
            https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D0%B8%D0%BD%
            D0%B5%D0%B9%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%80%
            D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B8_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B5%
            D0%BA%D1%82%D0%B0_%C2%ABL-20%C2%BB

            which was supposed to be the next type of battleship after the Bayer, the possibility of firing at a range of 33 000 meters was foreseen, although in reality in the 20 years at best it was possible to conduct targeted fire at enemy battleships at a maximum range of not more than 27-28 km. And at the end of the 30's, they could shoot at moving enemy battleships in all countries of the world at a distance of no more than the same 27-28 km.
  10. +1
    6 March 2018 20: 44
    Quote: Rurikovich
    .A choice of the battle distance in any case, the German.


    And how did the “choice of distance” really help the Blucher on 24 on January 1915, when it was quietly shot by British battlecruisers?
    1. +2
      6 March 2018 21: 17
      We are talking about classmates, with whom the author compares in the article! Ie the latest armored cruisers.
      1. +1
        6 March 2018 21: 30


        At the same time, the British were already building the first battlecruisers, and the Blucher Germans were building in response to the first English battlecruisers armed with the 12 GK against which Blucher had frankly weak weapons. Even if the Germans armed him with 4x2 240 mm. / 45 with a linearly elevated arrangement of towers, then in this case the armament would be weak to counter the English battlecruisers.
        1. +1
          6 March 2018 21: 56
          Quote: NF68
          At the same time, the British were already building the first battlecruisers,

          They became linear in the new EMNIP 1911 classification of the year - before that they were ordinary armored cruisers
          Quote: NF68
          armed with 12 GK against which Blucher has frankly weak weapons.

          Whereas during the Falklands, the Germans put an 21 shell into the “Invincible” at almost the same firing ranges of the 12 and 210mm guns, then, purely hypothetically, the “Blucher” in the same battle, having more long-range guns compared to the English, could calmly shoot the British, because the speeds were almost comparable and the British for a long time would be under fire, trying to overcome three kilometers without an answer.
          Quote: NF68
          even then, the armament would be weak to counter the British battlecruisers.

          It is not a matter of caliber, but of the amount of metal produced by the enemy and the ability of the enemy to withstand this regret. A typical example - in a night battle near Savo Island, the Americans stupidly stuffed the battlecruiser Hiei with everything from 127mm to 203 mm, which put it out of action. So "Hiei carried 203mm armor against 152mm" Invincible ".
          1. 0
            7 March 2018 15: 30
            They became linear in the new EMNIP 1911 classification of the year - before that they were ordinary armored cruisers


            The difference in the Civil Code between the British and the Blucher took place in the credibility of the British classification of their battleships / armored cruisers.
          2. 0
            7 March 2018 16: 07
            Quote: Rurikovich
            Quote: NF68
            At the same time, the British were already building the first battlecruisers,

            They became linear in the new EMNIP 1911 classification of the year - before that they were ordinary armored cruisers
            Quote: NF68
            armed with 12 GK against which Blucher has frankly weak weapons.

            Whereas during the Falklands, the Germans put an 21 shell into the “Invincible” at almost the same firing ranges of the 12 and 210mm guns, then, purely hypothetically, the “Blucher” in the same battle, having more long-range guns compared to the English, could calmly shoot the British, because the speeds were almost comparable and the British for a long time would be under fire, trying to overcome three kilometers without an answer.
            Quote: NF68
            even then, the armament would be weak to counter the British battlecruisers.

            It is not a matter of caliber, but of the amount of metal produced by the enemy and the ability of the enemy to withstand this regret. A typical example - in a night battle near Savo Island, the Americans stupidly stuffed the battlecruiser Hiei with everything from 127mm to 203 mm, which put it out of action. So "Hiei carried 203mm armor against 152mm" Invincible ".


            Caliber is also very important. Whatever class the British attributed their armored / battle cruisers to, the Blucher built as an answer to these ships had too little armament to have at least some real chances in a battle with such an English ship. In the onboard salvo of Blucher there are only 8 shells weighing 108 kg. against 6-ty English 386 kg. shells. At any distance the English 12 "shells will suffer significantly greater damage than the 210 mm. German.
  11. 0
    6 March 2018 20: 46
    Quote: Trapper7
    The fact is that in such a situation it could very well turn out that both Geben and Blucher would be on the Black Sea, and this is a completely different alignment of forces. Of course, you won’t put him against the battleships of the Black Sea Fleet - they’ll drown him, but he was quite suitable for himself as a quick bully.


    If Goeben had to take its feet away from the brigade of battleships of the Russian Black Sea Fleet more than once, then the presence of the Blucher on the Black Sea will not change much.
  12. 0
    6 March 2018 21: 35
    As for mine artillery, the Scharnhorst had 18 guns caliber 88 mm SK L / 45Blucher carried 16 significantly more powerful 88 mm SK L / 45.

    Olepatka?
    1. 0
      7 March 2018 16: 06
      Yes, in the first case - forty-caliber guns
      1. +1
        7 March 2018 20: 23
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Yes, in the first case - forty-caliber guns


        I welcome you, dear colleague.
        1. 0
          8 March 2018 00: 41
          And I you, dear NF!
  13. +2
    6 March 2018 21: 39
    You can bet how good or bad the Blucher was.
    But only on condition of a clear understanding that the Germans and British are leaders in the development of warfare at sea at the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries.
    And in order to give advice to M. Tyson on how best to hit on the right jaw, you must, at a minimum, be the best boxer.
    For all their mistakes, obvious and attributed to them, the Germans were such!
    Maybe Rurik was stronger.
    But he could not demonstrate this, along with the latest dreadnoughts, "carefully safeguarded" from military operations so that they turned into only breeding grounds for the Bolshevik infection, which were absolutely useless from a military point of view.
    And the Germans, formally "losing" Jutland - showed themselves very well.
    1. +1
      7 March 2018 16: 08
      Quote: nemoXX
      But to demonstrate this, along with the latest dreadnought, "carefully stored" from the fighting

      Nothing that the KOH of the Black Sea dreadnoughts was orders of magnitude superior to that of both the Germans and the British? :))) Maybe with orders I turned down it is necessary to check, but at times - for sure.
  14. +2
    6 March 2018 23: 29
    Immediately put PLUS!
    Andrey, continue to continue to pour balm on our sea souls.
    And what about the cycle “Why does the Russian Empire have a navy?”, When will you please continue?
  15. +1
    6 March 2018 23: 55
    When you ask yourself - why did the Germans finish building Blucher, when they already knew that Indomiteble and Inflexssible were in order (1908), and Invincible was about to be built (1909) - then you wonder - why did the English themselves finish building in these 2 years 3 obsolete Minotaur, and Defens went into operation already in 1909? Here's the mystery!
    1. +3
      7 March 2018 09: 59
      Quote: Potter
      When you ask yourself - why did the Germans finish building Blucher, when they already knew that Indomiteble and Inflexssible were in order (1908), and Invincible was about to be built (1909) - then you wonder - why did the English themselves finish building in these 2 years 3 obsolete Minotaur, and Defens went into operation already in 1909? Here's the mystery!


      Why is the riddle - besides the battle in the line, the cruisers could find their application according to their capabilities, if Blucher didn’t “attach” them to the battle cruisers - he would have served himself - until the first meeting with a stronger and faster opponent - such as the British battle cruisers, who designed as exterminators of "blucher-like" opponents.
  16. +1
    7 March 2018 00: 10
    I was pleased with the photo of the completely open rangefinders "Rurik". Especially against the background of a well-armored tower they look funny. :) These gentlemen did not learn anything under Tsushima.

    By the way, the visibility of the horizon from this cabin will be 18 km, not more. So, having the most long-range guns in the Russian fleet, he couldn’t shoot at the maximum range of Rurik 2. Just did not see the fall of their shells.
    1. +1
      7 March 2018 05: 56
      I was pleased with the photo of the completely open rangefinders of the "Rurik".

      We look at the Austrian battleship "SMS Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand", which entered service in the summer of 1910. There is a similar picture, and dreadnoughts like "Gangut" too. You can still search, I'm sure this can be found on other fleets.
    2. +2
      7 March 2018 06: 13
      Now is the second world period, the English battleship "Revenge".
    3. +1
      7 March 2018 10: 41
      Quote: Saxahorse
      I was pleased with the photo of the completely open rangefinders "Rurik". Especially against the background of a well-armored tower they look funny. :) These gentlemen did not learn anything under Tsushima.

      Actually - learned:
      In the main reserved volume of felling, baffles for rangefinder posts were distinguished, the upper part of which rose above the roof of the felling itself. The thickness of the walls of the felling itself was 203 mm (the plates were fastened with vertical dowels), and the roofs were 51 mm. The wall thickness of the rangefinder partitions was 152 mm, the roof 38 mm.
      © S.E. Vinogradov, A.D. Fedechkin. Rurik is the flagship of the Baltic Fleet.

      Photo of the pre-war nasal control - original version.
      And what is shown in the photo in the article is, it seems, already a military modernization.
      Subsequently, the number of rangefinders on the cruiser was constantly increasing and by April 1916 there were already 8 units, including: five 9-foot Barr and Strood (base 2743 mm), of which two were installed in 10 "towers and three on bridges , one 9-foot Pollen, two 4,5-foot Barr and Strood (1372 mm base, one anti-aircraft). In addition to these tools, the Rurik instrument base for several years included several differential Krylov system rangefinders .
  17. +5
    7 March 2018 05: 38
    Dear Andrey, thanks for the interesting analysis +!
    The general logic of the development of naval technology led to the appearance of the latest generation of armored cruisers. These were Tennessee in the United States, Minotaur in England, Pisa in Italy, Waldeck Russo in France, Tsukuba and Ibuki in Japan, and Rurik in Russia.

    Allow me to supplement the comparative information that you have provided with information about the cost of armored cruisers, for convenience, converted into British pounds sterling.
    Waldeck-Rousseau - 1 301 380,00 £
    "Minotaur" - 1 438 065,00 £
    Amalfi - 880,000,00 £
    Blücher - 1 396 604,00 £
    Rurik - 1 500 000,00 £
    "Tennessee" - 970 630,00 £ (without weapons)
    Kurama - 1 448 284,00 £

    In the photo "Kurama" during a training shooting.
  18. 0
    7 March 2018 06: 48
    Quote: Trapper7
    Judging by the text of the article and the fact that the next article will be the last, the mistakes of German shipbuilding will end on the cruiser Von der Tann.

    And what does Fon der Tann have to do with it? He was not a mistake. Or do you think the whole branch of the German battle cruisers is a mistake?
    1. +1
      7 March 2018 08: 23
      No, I don’t think so, and even more so, history itself has shown that it was the German battlecruisers that turned out to be the most thoughtful and balanced.
      And about F-d-T - in the coming days and find out))))
      1. 0
        7 March 2018 20: 09
        Quote: Trapper7
        And about F-d-T - in the coming days and find out))))

        Unlikely wink The author devoted one cycle to the first Aglitz cruisers, as it were, news of the type - "Invincible." And he devoted the second to the first-born of the German fleet, "Blucher", because it was built at the same time as the English and, according to a number of versions, was precisely the answer to the "ibles". Here is the author and is trying to figure out why he turned out to be so request
  19. +2
    7 March 2018 08: 52
    Bravo! Dear Andrey! Continue to write better about the fleet! Well her this policy hi
  20. +2
    7 March 2018 09: 40
    Surprisingly, the fact is that it is completely unclear from the descriptions of Muzhenikov whether the Blucher had bevels, or whether all three armored decks were horizontal. Most likely, there were still bevels - in the end, they were available both for the previous type of armored cruisers and for the linear cruisers following the Blucher. At the same time, Muzhenikov writes that the Blucher reservation scheme was similar to the Scharnhorst, with the exception of a slight increase in the thickness of the armored belt.


    There is such a reservation scheme (without a transverse section) but with an indication of the thickness of the decks.

    Details of the ship published in the English manual "JANE'S FIGHTING SHIPS". 1914.
    scheme Muzenikov Valery Borisovich - Armored cruisers “Scharnhorst”, “Gneisenau” and “Blucher” (1905-1914)
    1. 0
      7 March 2018 14: 51
      Alas, the scheme is replete with inaccuracies and does not at all coincide with the description :)
    2. 0
      7 March 2018 16: 36
      Yours, dear DimerVladimer, an error crept in: the British could not be so perspicacious that the 1914 reference book indicated the exact date and under what circumstances the ship died: 24.02.1915. I believe that the guide is still at least a 1915 edition.
      By the way, a very interesting assessment was given by Blucher in General notes: "Is it in every way very lucky / successful? / Ship." (Think that successful more suitable in this context.)
      Note: Sank at the Battle of Dogger Banks on February 24, 1915
      I wonder what the British saw as his success, even though they already knew the fact and circumstances of Blucher’s death? It seems that if we can find the answer, then this will immediately put an end to our entire discussion. For whoever is not an enemy, who has sunk the ship with his own hands, can give a final, albeit, to some extent, subjective assessment.
      I would like to know the opinion of the author and Comrade on this score.
      1. 0
        12 March 2018 09: 03
        Quote: pacific
        You, dear DimerVladimer, have crept in: the British could not be so perspicacious that the 1914 directory indicated the exact date and under what circumstances the ship died: 24.02.1915. I believe that the guide is still at least a 1915 edition.


        JANE'S is updated annually - records are adjusted.
        But in the reservation schemes - there may be inaccuracies, since their correct entry depended on the manufacturers' data provided, and they were not public at the time of entry.
  21. +2
    7 March 2018 09: 54
    Another interesting 2014 study on German battlecruisers
    Title German Battlecruisers of World War One: pdf
    Posted by Gary Staff
    Seaforth Publishing, 2014
  22. +1
    7 March 2018 11: 15
    But the dreadnoughts were much more powerful than the old battleships and even in the shortest possible time could turn a high-speed reconnaissance into a flaming ruin.


    This is an exaggeration - a scout is usually a light cruiser - often changes course and speed, so it’s not realistic to shoot at it. It’s pointless to spend shells of the main caliber of battleships on it.
    To do this, there were cruising forces at the squadron - which were supposed to draw closer to the range of almost a direct shot, to drive scouts and destroyers away. And already these light cruising forces were defended by armored, and later linear battlecruisers.
    That is why Blucher became an obsolete ship even at the time of laying - he could not be a scout due to insufficient speed and impressive size.
    Blucher could protect his light forces from the light forces of the enemy. But when the British battlecruisers appeared, he could not resist them, since the British battlecruisers had protection from 210 mm guns. Those. Blucher could not effectively confront the battlecruisers and fulfill his mission of protecting light forces, he would be forced to retreat under the protection of the squadron.
    Those. any miscalculation of retreat when meeting with enemy battlecruisers, or a successful hit that knocked down the course, led to the death of the "big cruiser".

    It was to counteract such large cruisers, such as Blucher (and this was a completely logical design path) that the first battlecruisers of the Innvinsible type were designed (this project was a step through the intermediate stage of the large cruiser).
    Therefore, I do not consider it a mistake to build the Invincible and the subsequent types of British battlecruisers in the ensuing arms race at sea - they reduced armored cruisers to the category of obsolete ones, as the Dreadnought did with the battleships preceding it.
    1. +1
      7 March 2018 11: 45
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      Those. any miscalculation of retreat when meeting with enemy battlecruisers, or a successful hit that knocked down the course, led to the death of the "big cruiser".
      It was to counteract such large cruisers, such as Blucher (and this was a completely logical design path) that the first battlecruisers of the Innvinsible type were designed (this project was a step through the intermediate stage of the large cruiser).

      The problem of “iblov” is that, having said “A”, the British completely forgot about “B”.
      They gave new large armored cruisers sledgehammerscapable of handling the old BrKR covering up light reconnaissance forces. But at the same time, the protection of these new CDs remained at the level of the old BrKR. And this was the main problem: not only did the large armored cruiser, covering up his light forces, meet his German classmate, he also, in the conditions of the North Sea, could fly to the main forces of the enemy fleet. And his fate would not differ much from the fate of the old BrKR.
      1. +2
        7 March 2018 21: 31
        And the British with worthy tenacity walked along the path of increasing the power of the sledgehammer. A completely perverted embodiment of this principle was the light battlecruisers, the Koreges type.
        At the same time, the Germans perfected ships with balanced combat elements, achieving perfection in Derflingers and approaching the embodiment of Mackensen as a matter of fact of a fast battleship. On a close path passed Japan with the type of Congo, and Russia with the Kinburns. But these ships did not reach German security.
        Without Blucher, this path to excellence would probably have been different.
        1. 0
          12 March 2018 15: 16
          Quote: Potter
          And the British with worthy tenacity walked along the path of increasing the power of the sledgehammer. A completely perverted embodiment of this principle was the light battlecruisers, the Koreges type.


          I agree - a strange decision by HMS Courageous, to achieve minimal draft without booking a ship ...
      2. 0
        12 March 2018 09: 09
        Quote: Alexey RA
        The problem of “iblov” is that, having said “A”, the British completely forgot about “B”.
        They gave the new large armored cruisers sledgehammers that could cope with the old BrKR, covering the light reconnaissance forces. But at the same time, the protection of these new CDs remained at the level of the old BrKR. And this was the main problem: not only did the large armored cruiser, covering up his light forces, meet his German classmate, he also, in the conditions of the North Sea, could fly to the main forces of the enemy fleet. And his fate would not differ much from the fate of the old BrKR.


        In general, I agree - except for fate. Nevertheless, the speed of the British battlecruisers more than once allowed them to break away from the pursuit.
    2. 0
      7 March 2018 14: 53
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      This is an exaggeration

      Wiesbaden strongly disagrees with you.
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      Blucher could protect his light forces from the light forces of the enemy

      Until the 254 mm cruiser approached
      1. 0
        12 March 2018 11: 58
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Wiesbaden strongly disagrees with you.


        Let's not forget that the artillery battle distances associated with the death of Wiesbaden were average - i.e. far from the classic reconnaissance - at the limit of range. Well, do not be late “Wiesbaden” with a turn - let the British battlecruisers shoot on their own, and this is unacceptable for a light cruiser.

        “In the fog they were visible very poorly and were quite similar to our 1st squadron of light cruisers,” recalled Captain 1st Rank R. Lawson. But these were the cruisers of the German 2nd reconnaissance group and the destroyers of the 2nd flotilla. The Germans saw the Chester better than he did, and at 17 Frankfurt opened fire on him from 38 meters, followed by firing of Pillau, Elbing and Wiesbaden, as well as part of the destroyers 6,300 Flotillas and 2th half-flotillas.


        At 17 hours, Hood’s ships also opened fire from 55 meters. The 9,000nd reconnaissance group at 2 h 17 min began to turn 56 ° to the right to the opposite course.Wiesbaden delayed the turn and got hit by two 305-mm (semi-armor-piercing) shells (sequentially with Invincible and Indomitable), which disabled both turbines, and remained motionless. The "Inflexible" managed to reach one hit in the "Pillau", but then the German cruisers took cover behind a smokescreen. After 18 p.m., the 2nd reconnaissance group disappeared from sight, but one of Hood’s battlecruisers (it is unclear which one) continued firing for several more minutes, and until about 18 p.m., shells continued to fall near the German cruisers.


        Rough estimates of hits of large-caliber shells at Wiesbaden between 18 hours 20 minutes and 18 hours 45 minutes (this is for an immovable target).
        The cruiser served as the target for 18 battleships. During this period, about 300 rounds of caliber from 305 to 381 mm were fired from it, with a distance mostly of 9,000-10,000 meters (the average distance associated with visibility on the day of battle). It is declared about 10 or 12 hits: “Royal Oak” - 1, “Superb” - 2, “Temeraire” - 2-3, “Vanguard” - 1, other ships - a few more hits, about 5-6.


        Those. not fantastic accuracy related to visibility (smoke / fog), resp. with the difficulty of determining the results of the fall of shells.
        Undoubtedly, if there wasn’t any delay with the turn and the golden shell that disabled both turbines, the fate of Wiesbaden could be different.

        And let's still not confuse the distance of the battle of light forces (near-medium), in which Wiesbaden participated at the time of the approach of the British battlecruisers and the distance of conducting reconnaissance (not assuming deliberate fire contact at near medium range.
        Since the artillery battle at medium-long range, takes place at the calculated place where the shells fell at the moment of passage of the ship - on the assumption of its uniform rectilinear movement, then getting into a maneuvering target at a long distance is very lucky.
        1. 0
          12 March 2018 12: 36
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          Let's not forget that the artillery battle distances associated with the death of Wiesbaden were average - i.e. far from the classic reconnaissance - at the limit of range.

          The distance was just classic - for the North Sea :)))) I repeat, and I wrote about this in the article - it's not about the Pacific Ocean, but about the specific theater of war on which the Germans were going to fight.
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          Wiesbaden lingered with a turn and got hit by two 305-mm (semi-armor-piercing) shells

          Pillau also delayed the turn? :))))) Dear DimerVladimer there is a very specific fact - when the light cruisers collided with the linear ones, they very quickly inflicted heavy (and in the case of Wiesbaden - decisive) damage. I can give you another example - the Helgoland battle, in which the battle cruisers Beatty without any problems sent to the bottom of Cologne and Ariadne
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          Since the artillery battle at medium-long range, takes place at the calculated place where the shells fell at the moment of passage of the ship - on the assumption of its uniform rectilinear movement, then getting into a maneuvering target at a long distance is very lucky.

          This is not entirely true. As I said earlier, the whole question is to introduce the ship into the dispersion ellipse, and it is large enough. Of course, intensive maneuvering can significantly reduce the accuracy of the shooter, but it also greatly reduces the speed of the evader, which, with its own light cruisers, makes the maneuvering position hopeless
          1. +1
            12 March 2018 16: 27
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The distance was just classic - for the North Sea :)))) I repeat, and I wrote about this in the article - it's not about the Pacific Ocean, but about the specific theater of war on which the Germans were going to fight.


            I completely agree with you: the shorter the distance, the higher the probability of defeat.
            In my previous comment, I pointed out that a scout can only be a light cruiser (not heavy at all), since it is easier for him to maneuver at a distance at which reconnaissance is usually conducted - outside the range of effective enemy fire.

            All examples with Wiesbaden Pillau - artillery battle distance of less than 10 km (i.e. average).
            In the Helgoland Bay - generally from 5 to 7 km, which can be described as close - in fact, for a sea battle, it is almost a "pistol shot" i.e. the flight time of the projectile is 7-10 seconds, which leaves no time for circulation, in contrast to the distance of 15-18 km
            There was clear, calm weather at the mouths of the rivers, but there was fog in the area of ​​Helgoland, and visibility did not exceed 3-4 miles

            What determined the battle distance - and it was the British battlecruisers who took advantage of the weather conditions, but the Germans were absolutely unprepared - out of 6 light cruisers, half disappeared into the fog and were not destroyed with the overwhelming advantage of the British.

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            This is not entirely true. As I said earlier, the whole question is to introduce the ship into the dispersion ellipse, and it is large enough.


            In this case, the dispersion ellipse with increasing distance also increases and the density of shells over the area decreases exponentially, and hence the probability decreases many times.
            In addition, the vertical dispersion ellipse is less than horizontal, as a result - the distance dispersion when firing at long distances, can not be compared in terms of the probability of hitting with flat trajectories at short distances.

            If when shooting Von der Tann at a distance of 6500-7500 m, the dispersion ellipse was 200-250 m across (slightly larger than the body of the battlecruiser), then when shooting at a distance of twice as much - it will grow close to the linear relationship by 2 times. Those. when firing at a range of 13000-15000 m, the scattering ellipse will be 400-500 m across - almost linearly, but the length of the major axis will not grow linearly - mathematically it is necessary to calculate the scattering area vertically for the distance and the horizontal scattering area.
            And the probability of being hit in one gulp from the same 8 trunks will not fall twice - at times.
            It is difficult to evaluate without calculation.
            Probabilities of dispersion in range and course - I think are familiar.
    3. +1
      7 March 2018 17: 00
      .... a scout is usually a light cruiser - often changes course and speed, so it’s not realistic to shoot at it. It’s pointless to spend shells of the main caliber of battleships on it.

      It’s you who “exaggerated” a little - you have targeted more than once. Including and GK battleships. Moreover, even destroyers, and not destroyers, were successfully turned into flaming ruins. And this goal is harder - faster and smaller. True, the destroyer is almost always a torpedo attack in naval battles. Then you will start to shoot from all calibers in order to disrupt it.
      In the night phase of the battle of Jutland, it was the German battleships with several British destroyers who did this when they passed the curtain of the Grand Fleet light forces on the way to the Horns Reef, and the rest thwarted the attack. And note, they did it in the dark and in the shortest time, because destroyers found already at a distance of launching torpedoes.
      PS The British in the Battle of Jutland were able to drown only the Pommern EDB and 1 EM during night torpedo attacks. And then, they shot almost from the limiting detection distances, and EM in general - almost by accident ran into a torpedo.
      1. 0
        12 March 2018 09: 24
        Quote: pacific
        Moreover, even destroyers, and not destroyers, were successfully turned into flaming ruins.


        At close range - in the area of ​​a direct shot - yes. From a distance of less than 8 miles.
        The scout does not keep for a long time at the distance of the actual fire - the projectile approach time is important in calculating the probability of hitting a small, maneuverable high-speed target. His task is different, he will keep as far as possible, limited by visibility.

        Quote: pacific
        In the night phase of the battle of Jutland, it was the German battleships with several British destroyers who did this
        Let's not confuse reconnaissance and torpedo attack distances.
        Reconnaissance is conducted at the limit of visibility - usually beyond the limits of a direct shot. Scout actions - search in a given sector, revealed the enemy’s forces, turned around, chose the safest distance that allows observing outside the enemy’s effective fire, came under fire - broke the distance, was persecuted, disappeared.
        Or the torpedo attack range - the direct-fire zone of the night battle at Skaggerac - at the retreat of the German squadron, British destroyers attacked at the appropriate distance.
  23. +2
    7 March 2018 11: 27
    The construction of the Blucher was the mistake of the German fleet, but not because he could not resist the Invincibles (more precisely, not only because of this), but because even in their absence he remained weaker than other armored cruisers in the world and not could somehow effectively carry out the tasks assigned in the German fleet to this class of ships


    I completely agree with your conclusions, dear Andrey.
    I also can’t "unearth" the logic of the bookmarking of this ship in German sources, even after studying the memoirs of German admirals - who "pushed through" a deliberately weak project - no one assumes this responsibility and this issue is hushed up in memoirs - apparently because the death of Blucher became very resonant and led to a change in leadership of the fleet. The subject of misinformation of the British, badly connected with the shipbuilding program of the Germans.

    However, this ship could become a very powerful colonial cruiser, where they usually sent obsolete scrap, to serve their term. However, he would not save Qingdao and we would not drink the Chinese beer Qingtao :)) (which is made according to the very German recipe in the former German colony).
    1. 0
      7 March 2018 16: 05
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      I also can’t "unearth" the logic of the bookmarking of this ship in German sources, even studying the memoirs of German admirals

      If you suddenly find something interesting - I will be extremely grateful hi
      1. 0
        12 March 2018 09: 37
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        If you suddenly find something interesting - I will be extremely grateful


        But he unearthed a lengthy description of the logic for bookmarking pocket battleships of type "A" from Raeder.
        The contract determined that large ships could be replaced by new ones when they reached the age of 20 years, and destroyers and torpedo boats - at the age of 15 years. The displacement of new ships was also limited: for battleships - up to 10 tons, cruisers - up to 000 tons, destroyers - up to 6000 tons and torpedo boats - up to 800 tons.


        When deciding which class ships should be replaced in the first place, cruisers were chosen, since this class of ships was somewhat less than others caught in the grip of Versailles restrictions. Therefore, it was the new light cruiser Emden that launched the shipbuilding program in 1921.


        Encouraged by the ongoing reconstruction of even a few light cruisers and torpedo boats, the fleet realized that the construction of new battleships was just around the corner, and began to ponder what these new ships should be. Since their displacement was supposed to remain within 10 tons, they had to choose between reliably armored and correspondingly slower ships, such as monitors or coast guard ships, or fast ships with medium-caliber guns and lightweight armor, but with greater maneuverability. Translating this into the language of performance characteristics, three types of options were discussed: ships with 000 mm guns, 305 mm armor and a speed of 200 knots; ships with guns of a caliber of also 21 mm, but with more powerful armor of 305 millimeters and, accordingly, a cruising speed of only 280 knots; ships, according to their characteristics, are closer to battle cruisers, with 18 mm guns and light 280-mm armor, but capable of speeds of 100 knots.

        In 1927, when these issues were first discussed, opinions were divided. At that time, I was in favor of more powerfully armored, but slower ships, which most of all correspond to the conditions in the Baltic Sea, where they are most likely to be used, an opinion that Admiral Zenker, then head of the Admiralty, did not share. Then, after much debate and thought, we stopped on a cruiser-type ship armed with six 181-mm main-caliber guns, eight 280-mm guns, equipped with 150-mm armor and having a speed of 100 knots. In terms of firepower and armor, such a ship would be superior to the cruiser of foreign fleets with a displacement of 26 tons, although it would be somewhat inferior to them in speed. But, on the other hand, he could have avoided a collision with much larger and more powerful battleships due to his higher speed. From the point of view of the propulsion system, it was also a relatively new type of cruiser; its propellers were powered not by a steam engine, but by eight diesels, which made it possible to significantly increase its radius of action. The design of such a ship was developed by technical adviser Laudan, an employee of the design department of the Admiralty, in collaboration with the Augsburg-Nuremberg engineering plant (MAN)

        http://militera.lib.ru/memo/german/raeder_e/07.ht
        ml
        Memoirs
        Raeder Erich Raeder
        Grand admiral

        Not too detailed description.
        I doubt that the real choice took place only in the dialogue of Raeder (fleet commander) and Admiral Zenker (head of the admiralty) - perhaps the relevant commissions worked at the admiralty and at the headquarters of the fleet. But Raeder is stingy and he admits that he initially adhered to a different concept of the ship.

    2. +1
      8 March 2018 03: 19
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      I can’t "unearth" the logic of bookmarking this ship in German sources,

      It’s useless to search in German, it’s only in the archive to order documents and to understand it yourself.
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      who "pushed through" a deliberately weak project - no one assumes this responsibility and this issue is hushed up in memoirs

      Who "pushed through" - it is known who and why made porridge with "Blucher" - too.
    3. +1
      8 March 2018 11: 54
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      I completely agree with your conclusions, dear Andrey.

      It is in vain.
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      I can’t “unearth” the logic behind the bookmarking of this ship in German sources, even after studying the memoirs of German admirals - who “pushed through” a deliberately weak project

      1. The ship is certainly not without flaws. But in general, in its class it is quite good.
      2. I'll tell you, start "digging" with Blucher weight summary. And compare it with the weight summary of some lin. cruisers. And you will be happy.
      I generally recommend starting any ship with a weight summary. Very informative thing. And therefore already move on to its body dimensions. But here you can not do without special programs. Well, and only then be interested in everything else.
      Why am I doing this? Moreover, having studied the weight summary and Blucher measurements you will understand that you have an armored raider. Here is something like Russia (the armored cruiser-raider was like that) from the beginning of the century, only at a different technological level. And he has nothing to do with battle cruisers. For another, it was built. Therefore, compare it with lin. cruisers are simply stupid.
      It’s the same as comparing Russia with Iwate and “drawing a thoughtful conclusion” that, yes, Russia is weak. Although, such comedians-comparators in RuNet, even a dime a dozen. Here is Chelyabinsk Andrey all the way Blucher from lin. cruisers compares. One of them.
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      However, this ship could become a very powerful colonial cruiser, where they usually sent obsolete scrap, to serve their term.

      Colonial Cruiser? Well, you generally ...
      And the Germans had NO need for colonial cruisers. These are not Britons. And not the Japanese. And not the French, at worst.
      1. +1
        12 March 2018 10: 19
        Quote: wer2
        Here is Chelyabinsk Andrey all the way Blucher from lin. cruisers compares. One of them.


        He does not compare.
        He says that the project was very expensive, but very weak compared to the British LK, which did not allow him to act effectively against the British LK.

        Quote: wer2
        I generally recommend starting any ship with a weight summary.

        Well, if you recommend an engineer to start with a weight summary - let's try:
        previous Shanghaihorst -11 616t, Blucher 15 842t Invincible 17 526t - the difference in displacement is insignificant - about 10%, the difference in armament - is colossal - this is not a miscalculation - this is a CALCULATION!
        Why the ship was put on training ships (well, it was due to the fact that Blucher, according to the composition of the SLA, was advanced at the time of construction) ...
        The next type of Von der Tann immediately jumped to 19 tons of displacement, and the next type for the British - "Indefatable" 370 tons. So Blucher "neither here nor there."
        He is nowhere to be considered a battlecruiser and the author does not talk about it.
        Ivinsible is a revolutionary project - through a stage, Blucher - evolutionary, consistent - but that is why it became obsolete before leaving the slipway.

        Quote: wer2
        Colonial Cruiser? Well, you generally ...
        And the Germans had NO need for colonial cruisers.

        Is the discovery for you that Germany had colonies? The Germans did not deter Qingdao heard of such an event in WWI?
      2. +2
        12 March 2018 12: 39
        Quote: wer2
        And he has nothing to do with battle cruisers. For another, it was built.

        yes, yes :)))) the fact that Blucher was not sent to raiding (by the way, the article considered this probability, but Kolya, as always, didn’t force it) but instead either served as a reconnaissance officer in a squadron (in the Baltic) or acted as part of a linear squadron cruisers, Kolya failed to consider the weight summary laughing
  24. +4
    8 March 2018 07: 06
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Kolya, we’re wacky again? :))))

    Andrei, here you are kind of an adequate, intelligent person, write interesting articles - why are you even engaging in polemics with this creature. But it is clearly not adequate, carries some nonsense, comes up with new classes of ships (only Boyarin - the “near trade fighter” is worth it. Is it where he should destroy trade with enemies, on the approaches to his base or what?), For all requests somehow to argue their statements there is only one answer - google in the internet. On the face, a pronounced megalomania multiplied by Russophobia (constant references to flawed Runet users), it seems that Kashchenko’s Internet was held in the chambers and from there it scribbles its "immortal" comments.))
    1. +6
      8 March 2018 08: 49
      Quote: Rakovor
      Andrey, here you are kind of an adequate, intelligent person, write interesting articles - why do you even enter into a polemic with this creature

      I know him for many years :))))
      Quote: Rakovor
      But it is clearly not adequate, carries some nonsense, comes up with new classes of ships

      He was completely inadequate, and from his "ocean armored gunboats of coastal defense of the 2,5 class" at one time the whole althistory was laughing at the voice.
      1. 0
        8 March 2018 11: 38
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I know him for many years :))))

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        and from his "ocean armored gunboats of coastal defense of the 2,5 class" at one time the whole althistory was laughing at the voice.

        Chelyabinsk Andrey is clearly not in himself. Here are the facts:
        1. It turns out that he knows me from somewhere for many years. Apparently that's why he constantly calls me unknown to me Nicholas.
        2. He attributes to me some gunboats. This is just right. Apparently on the fly invented. For greater solidity.
        3. And finally, a little higher, he communicates with himself. With his clone NF.
        This is a very strange subchik. It’s better to stay away from these.
      2. +2
        8 March 2018 16: 42
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I know him for many years :))))


        Hello, dear colleague. Isn’t it easier to say in this case: “who has not known him for many years?”
        1. +1
          12 March 2018 12: 40
          Quote: NF68
          Isn’t it easier to say in this case: “who has not known him for many years?”

          The attending physician, apparently ...
    2. +1
      8 March 2018 11: 32
      Quote: Rakovor
      with this creature

      Dear, when you bring your fingers to the clave, you think first what to tap on it. If you can, of course, think. And if you can’t, then there’s nothing to be rummaged about on the Internet. Mark the yards better not by 1, but by 1,5 bets. More and more benefits will be.
      Quote: Rakovor
      only Boyarin - "close trade fighter"

      Yes, Boyarin was a small and close cruiser - a trade fighter. What confuses you with this? Do you deny the existence of ships of this class?
      What about the Varangian, a large (armored) and long-range trade fighter cruiser? Will you deny this too?
      If so, then everything is completely wrong with you. In general, you don’t understand the ships of those years.
      Quote: Rakovor
      This is where he should destroy the enemy trade, on the approaches to his base or what?)

      On the seas. Clear? Not on the oceans, like the Varangian, Russia and others, but on the seas.
      I’ll tell you such a thing, not all countries go to the ocean. Some cost the seas. But to combat trade (and military transport) of such countries ships of the Boyarin class were very suitable. Because they were built for this.
      And it was built in Denmark, which had nothing to do with ocean expanses. And ship projects for these open spaces, too, had.
      Quote: Rakovor
      one answer - google in the internet

      Exactly. Because only the information that is obtained by their labor is valued. So I wrote to you about Boyarin. Information handed is easy and simple. What is the answer? Teeth of ignorance. And you would have obtained this information with your work on the Internet, you would have sung differently.
      Quote: Rakovor
      On the face of pronounced megalomania multiplied

      1. It is written together.
      2. This is not megalomania. This is a restrained cheerful rzhach over "recognized experts of Runet."
      If it is not clear, then 99,9 percent of all kinds of “specialized sites” are populated by people incompetent in one or another of the issues under discussion. Some of them behave correctly, really trying to get information (in vain, you can’t get reliable information there, you can only "communicate" there). But some, especially stubborn, do the opposite. They "broadcast." Moreover, all sorts of nonsense, in a nutshell, they do not chop in exactly the same way as the first ones. By this they amuse me not deTski. That's all.
      Quote: Rakovor
      multiplied by Russophobia

      If you noticed Russophobia somewhere, then this is an obvious clinic. And you need to see a doctor. Special.
      Quote: Rakovor
      constant links to flawed Runet users

      No need to juggle. And rearrange words in places, too. This is not an arithmetic. And their meaning from the permutation changes.
      Quote: Rakovor
      the impression is that in Kashchenko the Internet was held in the chambers

      And when you were there, he was not? How is it generally that they feed well?
      1. 0
        8 March 2018 13: 32
        What about the Varangian, a large (armored) and long-range trade fighter cruiser? Will you deny this too?


        You about the Varyag didn’t get a little excited, the following is the first page of Kramp’s report on the Varyag cruiser, I have it completely and also have a discussion and conclusions on this ship. If you don’t have it, I can send it to you, the main thing in the translation is not to make a mistake, there are a lot of technical terminology in the text.
        1. +1
          8 March 2018 13: 57
          It seems that you have little contact with this man, and still do not know that he loves to invent OWN classifications of ships and pass them off as generally accepted at that time. According to him, repeatedly mentioned both here and on a neighboring resource, an EDB of the Borodino type is not an EDB at all. Of. side classification.
          1. +1
            8 March 2018 15: 29
            It seems that you have little contact with this man, and still do not know that he loves to invent OWN ship classifications

            From the moment wer2 appeared on VO, then there was another nickname, I sometimes enter into discussions with him. To be honest, it is interesting on the basis of what views such conclusions are made.
            1. +3
              8 March 2018 15: 41
              Quote: 27091965i
              To be honest, it is interesting on the basis of what views such conclusions are made.

              I was also interested for a while. But in the process of re-reading the archives of the neighboring site, I realized that often the main reason was “if only not like people’s”, coupled with an arrogantly boorish appeal to those who dare to refute his words, and a minimum of sane proofs (as well as proof in principle). However, you may be able to pull out more information. And even more so - good luck to you in this difficult matter hi
              1. 0
                8 March 2018 15: 53
                Quote: arturpraetor
                coupled with an arrogant and boorish appeal to those who dare to refute his words, and a minimum of sane proofs


                This wer2 can not be taken away.



                Quote: arturpraetor
                However, you may be able to pull out more information. And even more so - good luck to you in this difficult matter


                In principle, where this information is taken from is clear to me, I have already cited a similar comment above regarding the views on the appearance of armored cruisers as a further development of rank 2 armadillos in England. But as they say, I want more. hi
                1. 0
                  8 March 2018 17: 46
                  Quote: 27091965i
                  This wer2 can not be taken away.

                  I hope you meant proofs. I have a principled position on them; there will be no proofs from me.
                  Quote: 27091965i
                  about the views on the appearance of armored cruisers as a further development of rank 2 armadillos in England

                  Class 2 squadron battleships developed into battlecruisers.

                  There were also several categories of armored cruisers:
                  1. Armored cruisers defenders of trade. In the RIF, there were none. At YaIF there were 6 pieces. They were built to protect communications from the actions of armored cruisers-raiders.
                  2. Budget armored cruisers. Built for the fleets of underdeveloped countries, where they played the role of the EDB.
                  In YAIF there were 2 of them. Used as armored defenders.
                  3. Raiders.
                  a) Cruiser battleships (in the RIF, according to the initial idea, they should have been Oslyabya and Peresvet, but they did not succeed in designing and constructing them normally). As planned, they were normally protected armored cruisers-raiders. To fight with which the enemy would be forced to attract not armored defenders, but the EDB. Basically 2 classes, as more speedy.
                  b) Armored cruisers-raiders (in the RIF, this is Russia and Gromoboy). Raiders with weakened defense and weapons. There were no tricks for all kinds of scouts, including armored ones (Bayan). And from the armored defenders were to shoot back.
                  Rurik armored cruiser-raider was only according to the official classification. In fact, from birth he was a half-armored cruiser. This remained even after the class of semi-armored ships in Russia was renamed armored.

                  I can add on my own that leapfrog with Peresvet (2 pcs), Pobeda and Gromoboy led to the fact that it was really possible to build only one obsolete EDB of the 2nd class (Pobeda). And 3 rubbish. Because the head of the Russian admirals was empty. And the original project was approved wrong.
                  If they were built according to the project of the Baltic Plant (in the "trough" of this project was later built by Stormbreaker), the ships would have been much better. And it would be possible to build at least 2 normal 2-class EDBs in Russia (2 Victories instead of Thunderbolt). Yes, and Peresvet would be suitable for something (Oslyabya, no, it was built very clumsily).
              2. +1
                8 March 2018 17: 05
                Quote: arturpraetor
                According to him, repeatedly mentioned both here and on a neighboring resource,

                Again some mythical resources. Is this the third clone of Andrey Chelyabinsk?
                Quote: arturpraetor
                A Borodino-type EDB is not an EDB at all.

                1. Examine the protection system of the "Tsushima" Borodinians. And then compare it with the protection that the EDB was supposed to have at that time. There was little in common and, in terms of the level of protection of the state-owned enterprise, the “Tsushima Borodins” did not fall into the category of EDB.
                2. Study the range in the combat-ready state of the EDB of that time and Borodino (all). Pay special attention to Glory. It, unlike the rest of Borodin, was built with normal GP defense. But in return, he had a microscopic range of action in a combat-ready state. And therefore, he never left the Baltic. The rest of Borodin residents did not even get this indicator even in indicators of obsolete EDB.
                3. Learn Russian guns GK 305/40. Outside the range of 40 cab. they fell out of the niche of the guns of the Civil Aviation Group of the EDB class 1 into the niche of the guns of the Civil Code of the EBR class 2.
                Quote: arturpraetor
                Of. side classification.

                By office the classifications of Oslyabya with Peresvet, Sevastopol with Petropavlovsk, Nikolai with Alexander and Sisa (Black Sea Fleet for now, set aside) were the EDB. At the same time, only Sisoy, Sevastopol and Petropavlovsk had guns GK 305/40, like Borodins. More than none of the ships did not carry a single sign of EDB, even class 2, even outdated.
                In addition, Sisoy was more or less combat-ready only if he unloaded all the coal and dragged him to the battlefield in tow. And Oslyabya, Nikolai and Sevastopol were only combat-ready slightly outside their bases.
                You are satisfied with such an office. classification? If satisfied, then use it. And continue to be amazed at the results of Tsushima.
                There, the Japanese had 3 EDBs of Class 1 and 1 obsolete EDB of Class 1. Only the fact that the Japanese are unimportant warriors can be explained by the fact that they have been tinkering with this floating garbage for so long under Tsushima.
                Quote: arturpraetor
                coupled with arrogant and boorish treatment

                And again you are cheating. I am always emphatically polite. Unlike you and some other users, even in this thread.
                Moreover, devilishly patient. I myself do not understand why and why I explain to you (and incidentally to others) the basics of naval affairs 100 years ago. I note, absolutely free.
                Quote: arturpraetor
                and at least sane proofs (as well as proofs in principle)

                Dear, you yourself need arbeiten over proofs. And reluctance arbeiten, make other people's comments with proofs. There will be no other options. Free cheese only in a mousetrap. And also in my comments.
        2. +1
          8 March 2018 14: 41
          Quote: 27091965i
          You about the "Varyag" not much got excited

          Not at all. I know this topic very well and could easily prove to you what was said with numbers at the ready. But I won’t. Not out of harm, just laziness.
          Quote: 27091965i
          Below is 1 page of Kramp’s report on the Varyag cruiser,

          This is not Crump's report.
          If only because the contractual capacity of Varyag machines was not 16 indicator forces, as it says there. A 000 kW. And these are noticeably different quantities. And Kramp could not know what kind of power he puts on the Varangian.
          In addition, 16000 indicator forces will not drag a ship the size of a Varangian with a speed of 23,5 knots. The laws of physics are against. 16 ind. forces it is only 000 11 kW.
          In confirmation of my words, I would like to give an example of the Bogatyr, a ship with something similar to the Varangian in dimensions and displacement. In tests of speed of 23,45 knots, he achieved with a machine power of 14 kW. And this despite the fact that the deposition of the Bogatyr is slightly smaller, the contours of the corps (the Bogatyr was a reconnaissance cruiser), “high-speed”. Unlike the “economical” contours of the Varyag’s corps. Fighter cruiser (trade).
          By the way, Varyag’s machines did not reach the contracted capacity. On a measured mile their power was 15 925 kW. Those. formally, Kramp has not fulfilled the terms of the contract. However, the cruiser fulfilled the speed requirements completely. Therefore, they decided not to sue Kramp. Not from humanism, business prospects were weak. And the costs, on the contrary, are large.
          The long-term power of the Varyag machines was measured in the USA (one boiler did not work for some time) 14 kW. With repeated measurements after the ship arrived in Russia, the power of the machines amounted to 158 14 kW (all boilers worked).
          But with such a power of machines he had to hold, and at first held, even with a slightly lower power of machines, a long speed of at least 23 knots. It was such a long speed that was recorded in the contract.
          Quote: 27091965i
          If you don’t have it, I can send it to you, the main thing in the translation is not to make a mistake, there are a lot of technical terminology in the text.

          Thank you very much, but for now I’ll probably refuse. But again, thanks for the offer.
          1. 0
            8 March 2018 15: 23
            Quote: wer2
            This is not Crump's report.


            Interestingly, will this book convince you?
            1. 0
              8 March 2018 17: 50
              Quote: 27091965i
              Interestingly, will this book convince you?

              And what should convince me of it?
              The fact that the Varangian was not a trade fighter cruiser?
              No, nothing will convince me of this. I know this material too well (from all sides) to be interested in someone's opinion on this issue.
              1. +3
                8 March 2018 18: 43
                Quote: wer2
                No, nothing will convince me of this. I know this material too well (from all sides) to be interested in someone's opinion on this issue.


                That is, the opinion of the creator of the cruiser "Varangian" in comparison with yours, so "inscription on the fence"?
                1. 0
                  8 March 2018 19: 51
                  Quote: 27091965i
                  oh is, the opinion of the creator of the cruiser "Varangian" in comparison with yours, so "inscription on the fence"?

                  Why did you decide that the opinion of the creator of the Varangian diverges from mine?
                  In addition, he was not ordered a scout cruiser. Not a fighter cruiser. And not a hospital cruiser.
                  He was ordered an armored cruiser with certain parameters and performance characteristics. And already about how the Russian GMG intends to use it, Kramp could only guess.
                  Whether he knew that the Varyag cruiser with paramats, this is a fighter cruiser, is unknown. I think I knew. But this is an assumption, no more.
  25. +3
    8 March 2018 14: 05
    Another ignoramus. He doesn’t know that there used to be armored cruisers-raiders.

    Officially, dear ignoramus, in the RIF there were cruisers of the 1st rank "Russia", "Stormbreaker" and "Rurik", which were also called armored cruisers. Nobody defined them in a separate class of cruisers-raiders, because such a class did not officially exist in any fleet of the world. This is a tactical niche of the ship, not a classification. However, it’s been said to you 100500 eight times over the past eight years - it didn’t help ...
    Yes, and one more thing. It would not have been there the battleships-cruisers Peresvet and Oslyabya. These with Blucher are generally practically one in one. The difference is only in the technological level.

    That's just officially “Relight” and “Oslyabya” were the EBRs, and “Blucher” - Große Kreuzer (big cruiser). The first two ships were called armadillo cruisers only in general correspondence, while the third did not in any way refer to such terminology.
    A specialist with great experience is felt in your words.

    Of course, I often encounter similar people in the Internet, and sometimes you in particular. You’ll start to figure it out when these mizams are no, no, yes they hit on the nose, and everyone who is smeared tries to pretend to be an innocent sheep.
    1. 0
      8 March 2018 18: 12
      Quote: arturpraetor
      dear ignoramus

      Hamlo showed her mug.
      And this is someone there a little earlier something bukht about rudeness. I call him "respected", and he calls me "un respectable ignoramus."
      Quote: arturpraetor
      in the RIF there were cruisers of the XNUMXst rank "Russia", "Stormbreaker" and "Rurik", which were also called armored cruisers. Nobody defined them in a separate class of cruisers-raiders, because such a class did not officially exist in any fleet of the world.

      Everything is clear, you are not even able to understand what is at stake. You will learn the Russian language, and then start to communicate. You have a clear misunderstanding of what is written in Russian.
      Hear the ringing, but do not understand where it is.
      Quote: arturpraetor
      That's just officially “Relight” and “Oslyabya” were the EBRs, and “Blucher” - Große Kreuzer (big cruiser).

      Ugh you. Some kind of Satan. Again "officially."
      Tell me the structural element of Peresvet and Oslyaby, which would indicate that you have the EBR? Even if 2 classes.
      Quote: arturpraetor
      The first two ships were called armadillo cruisers only in general correspondence.

      These were raiders cruisers with full protection and weapons. From this they gained the attached word "armadillos." The older brothers of Russia, who was a classic armored cruiser-raider of those years. Those. was with weakened defense and weapons. In those years, with full protection, but truncated armament, only armored cruisers-defenders of trade were built.
      Watch your fingers:
      1. Armored cruiser with weakened protection and truncated weapons. It's Russia.
      2. Armored cruiser with full protection and trimmed weapons. This is Iwate.
      3. Armored cruiser with full protection and normal weapons. This is Relight.
      These are all three different types of armored cruisers.
      As a result, Peresvet and Oslyabyu failed to design and construct normally. And they were identified at the service as the EDB. Although they did not have a single element of the EDB. And the third ship, Pobeda, was redone in the 2nd class EDB. That's just what it was about the performance characteristics of the outdated class 2 EDB.
      Quote: arturpraetor
      no no yes bang on the nose

      This is what. Worse when in a melon. Therefore, I recommend you to be polite in everyday communication. And on the Internet including Even despite the fact that here nothing will fly into a melon.
    2. 0
      8 March 2018 18: 27
      Quote: arturpraetor
      in the RIF there were cruisers of the XNUMXst rank “Russia”, “Stormbreaker” and “Rurik”, which were also called armored cruisers. Nobody defined them in a separate class of cruisers-raiders, because such a class did not officially exist in any fleet of the world. This is a tactical niche of the ship, not a classification.

      Cruisers, like other things, ranging from a frying pan to everything else, they cost in order to carry out some functions. For some reason they were built. And for the performance of certain functions, they were given certain qualities. Someone has more armor, and less coal. And for someone the opposite.
      And for what the cruisers were not built, it was in order to "be cruisers of the 1st rank." This is generally not interesting to anyone except you. What is there and how it was recorded in their forms.
      And it was written there, oh, how much is funny. Especially if you recall the "Tsushima EDB".
      From such a “paper” approach and ridiculous “suffering”. When, in all seriousness, they begin to find out who is stronger than the “hunter” or “hare”. And in the process, they come to the conclusion that "the hare is not the one now." Weaker than the "hunter". And then squeeze the "little article". "Mistake Hare" is called.
    3. +1
      8 March 2018 19: 21
      Quote: arturpraetor
      You’ll start to figure it out when these mizams are no, no, yes they hit on the nose, and everyone who is smeared tries to pretend to be an innocent sheep.

      Artem, <... do not throw your pearls before the pigs ...> Matt. 7,6 wink hi
      PS. Own nerves are more expensive feel
      1. +4
        8 March 2018 19: 33
        I have already tied up, the time limit for these matters has been exhausted for today laughing And not to that, to be honest - both on the work of the table and the cloud of calculations, and on the hobby of the table and calculations, I already set the meal as a meal, I searched for the table for a long time to knead the dough wassat It’s definitely impossible to communicate with those who are stubborn in this state - otherwise I’ll start writing answers in the format of the Excel table bully But seriously - then usually I don’t get into such things, but here I had to get distracted. Distracted hi
        1. 0
          8 March 2018 23: 27
          Quote: arturpraetor
          I already tied

          And they did it right. Smoking various dubious compounds does not bring to good.
  26. 0
    8 March 2018 19: 27
    The only parameter by which the Blucher exceeded the last armored cruisers was speed, which killed him. The speed is excessive for joint operations with other armored cruisers, but sufficient for joint operations with linear battleships. Plus, tactically erroneous use, as a line ship. If the Blucher did not have such a high speed, then he would not have been used as a battlecruiser, and his chances of surviving would have been much higher.
    1. +1
      8 March 2018 19: 45
      Quote: ignoto
      Speed ​​excessive for joint operations with other armored cruisers, but sufficient for joint operations with linear

      Well, Blucher ran even better than Von der Tann according to the documents of those years Yes
      Quote: ignoto
      Plus, tactically erroneous use, as a line ship

      This was a necessary measure, since the same “FDT” was under repair and the “Blucher” was taken for a while actually because of psychology, because 4 units are any better than 3. And the Blucher’s guns were far inferior to larger guns in range "comrades". The mistake of the burghers is that the “Blucher” put the end, and not more stable against large shells the same, for example, “Derflinger”. Because "Blucher" received more "attention" during the chase, being closer to the enemy.
      1. +1
        8 March 2018 23: 10
        Quote: Rurikovich
        The mistake of the burghers is that the “Blucher” put the end, and not more stable against large shells the same, for example, “Derflinger”.

        By the way, yes, I completely agree with you! In fact, they trusted the weakest to cover up the departure. This is definitely a question for command.
        1. 0
          12 March 2018 10: 33
          Quote: Saxahorse
          By the way, yes, I completely agree with you! In fact, they trusted the weakest to cover up the departure. This is definitely a question for command.


          There are generally many questions on the preparation and actions of the cover forces that abandoned their battlecruisers.
          Org conclusions followed.
      2. 0
        8 March 2018 23: 33
        Quote: Rurikovich
        The mistake of the burghers is that the “Blucher” put the end, and not more stable against large shells the same, for example, “Derflinger”.


        “Derflinger” and Co got on and off 380 mm. shells, and this one is much more powerful arguments than even 343 mm. As a result, “Blucher" just long and hard finished off the crowd, although without it he was already "not a tenant." In vain the British paid him so much attention instead of just as thoroughly taking at least one other German battle cruiser.
        1. 0
          10 March 2018 23: 17
          In vain, but as far as we know, this did not happen on purpose. Flagship signalman Beatty Seymour on arm ... with signals. This is described in sufficient detail.
          1. 0
            11 March 2018 17: 55
            Quote: Scaffold
            In vain, but as far as we know, this did not happen on purpose. Flagship signalman Beatty Seymour on arm ... with signals. This is described in sufficient detail.


            However, even in the case when an order was received that was clearly inconsistent with the current situation, no one interfered with either additionally requesting confirmation of the order already received or acting contrary to the order since this order too clearly looks like an error.
            1. 0
              12 March 2018 14: 52
              Well, this is the same British fleet of the First World War. Remember the battle of Jutland?
              1. 0
                12 March 2018 16: 46
                Quote: Scaffold
                Well, this is the same British fleet of the First World War. Remember the battle of Jutland?


                The British had information about some plans of the Germans to lure the English fleet under the attack of submarines and under something else there. Not least because of this, the British behaved very carefully.
    2. +1
      8 March 2018 19: 57
      Quote: ignoto
      Speed ​​excessive for joint operations with other armored cruisers, but sufficient for joint operations with linear.

      To unscrew from linear. When they find him and start to drive him.
      Quote: ignoto
      Plus, tactically erroneous use, as a line ship.

      That is yes. Exactly the same as with Oslyaby. And with Relight. A little earlier.
      1. +1
        9 March 2018 10: 01
        The main damage "Oslyabya" received from the battleships. From birth, he had a huge construction overload. Even without operational overload, the main belt is actually under water. The upper belt is thinner and shorter. Just out of luck. Japanese "Fuji" also had unprotected extremities.
        1. 0
          9 March 2018 10: 36
          Quote: ignoto
          From birth, he had a huge construction overload.

          + considerable design.
          Quote: ignoto
          Just out of luck.

          Nothing like this. With Oslyaby, everything was predetermined in advance. With its overload, it was possible to fight only near the base (less than 900 m.m.). And with an enemy armed with a Civil Code a maximum of 10 ". That is, a maximum with an EDB of class 2.
          And in the state in which he was under Tsushima, any armored man could sink him. Even 2 ranks.
          Quote: ignoto
          Japanese "Fuji" also had unprotected extremities.

          All the normal squadron battleships of those years were with punctured protection of the extremities (Fuji, etc.). And only Russian buckets with bolts (Borodinians + Alexander with Nikolai) were completely inappropriate at that time, a complete reservation. Still Cesarevich, but formally, with all his minor flaws, this is still a class 1 EDB. Although extremely weak. Weaker than the middle-aged Retvisan, but stronger than Fuji and Poltava.
    3. 0
      8 March 2018 23: 03
      Quote: ignoto
      If the Blucher did not have such a high speed, then he would not have been used as a battlecruiser, and his chances of surviving would have been much higher.

      Like for example "Defense" and "Warrior" :)
      1. 0
        9 March 2018 09: 50
        Why, in the Baltic “Blucher" would look very nice. And in comparison with "Rurik"? I don’t know if the “Tsushima syndrome” existed or not, but the “Rurik” did not manifest itself.
        1. 0
          9 March 2018 10: 41
          Quote: ignoto
          I don’t know if the “Tsushima syndrome” existed or not, but the “Rurik” did not manifest itself.

          Rurik 2 is just a misunderstanding. And we must be glad that he did not show himself in any way. Because he could manifest himself only in one way. Traditional for the Russian Navy.
          By the way, Rurik 1 for its time was very, very good. Yes, zelo is complicated and hemorrhoids. But in the bottom line, not bad.
  27. +4
    8 March 2018 23: 34
    Quote: wer2
    Rurik armored cruiser-raider was only according to the official classification. In fact, from birth he was a half-armored cruiser.

    Half-armored - how is it? Was the armor mounted in a checkerboard pattern?
    1. 0
      9 March 2018 09: 56
      By the way, the question is interesting. The American New York and Brooklyn are formally armored, but the side belt is very short and narrow. The main defense is the karapas deck.
    2. +1
      9 March 2018 10: 31
      Earlier, Kolya broadcast that the Rurik-2 was such a cruising battleship of the coastal defense ....
      1. +1
        10 March 2018 03: 55
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Earlier, Kolya broadcast that the Rurik-2 was such a cruising battleship of coastal defense.

        Yes, it was something :-) Do you remember how he, while still “Passer-by,” started a profile with the nickname hotel and entered into a conversation with himself, or how did he portray the crowd, leading a discussion from several profiles at once? That clown too.
        1. +2
          10 March 2018 08: 29
          Quote: Comrade
          Do you remember how he, while still “Passer-by,” started a profile with the nickname hotel and entered into a conversation with himself, or how did he portray the crowd, leading a discussion from several profiles at once?

          How to forget this? Who spoke with Kolya on the Internet doesn’t laugh in the circus
  28. +1
    9 March 2018 02: 31
    Quote: wer2
    percent on 99,9 of various kinds of “specialized sites” are populated by people incompetent in this or that issue under discussion. Some of them behave correctly, really trying to get information (in vain, you won’t get reliable information there, you can only "communicate" there).
    .

    I recognize, I recognize brother Kolya!

    So I'm trying, trying. "get reliable information"It turns out in vain, from your words, here I can only"converse"It turns out that there is nothing in your comments? But if you still have it, then correct it, write what to look for."reliable information"There is a point, but only in your comments.
    1. 0
      9 March 2018 11: 15
      Quote: Comrade
      I recognize, I recognize brother Kolya!

      The following "recognitions" are put up for the contest.
      1. Someone Kolya. He is Nikolai.
      2. Boschman or pushman (the recognizer does not remember exactly) in Latin letters.
      More than a week of "recognition" has been received. But I think they will. This is just the beginning.
      1. +3
        9 March 2018 11: 30
        Quote: wer2
        No more “recognitions” received per week

        I still did not have enough to list all your nicknames, I suppose you don’t remember. wink
        1. 0
          9 March 2018 11: 52
          Quote: Mordvin 3
          I still did not have enough to list all your nicknames, I suppose you don’t remember.

          3. Another proposal was received - someone with many names who do not want to be named, suffering from amnesia.

          I would choose the third option. It is very convenient, almost anyone falls under the signs indicated in it.
          1. +1
            9 March 2018 13: 11
            Karbayn, Kochegar, Zeus, 1,2,3 and knows what a new ...., and a bunch of other, one-day. Would you write something in your profile or something ...
            1. +1
              9 March 2018 13: 16
              And in the next forum Passerby, hotel and even the hell knows how many quickly drank up the administration. His name is Legion, for there are many!
              1. 0
                9 March 2018 19: 26
                4. Another proposal - Passer-by, hotel, Legion and hell knows how many quickly drunk by the administration.
                5. And one more offer - Karbayn, Kochegar, Zeus, 1,2,3 and the devil knows what new ...., and a heap of others, one-day.

                This is necessary, as judging by the seemingly stupid people, you have been taught the mind. But judging by the discussion of the "article", not all horses have food.

                Waiting for new recognizers. The list is not closed.
  29. +2
    9 March 2018 05: 22
    On tests, the cars were boosted, achieving record 43 262 hp. “Blucher” at the same time developed 25,835 bonds.

    During another run of the Blucher, a higher speed was achieved, with the power of 43 mechanisms 886 l / s the course of 25,86 nodes was developed, but this was not the limit. 26,4 nodes were later reported.
    1. +1
      9 March 2018 10: 34
      Exactly. And this is on a large armored cruiser. And with a steam engine.

      As Muzhennikov writes in his monograph: “Conventional steam piston engines, like on ships of earlier construction with vertical cylinders of several different diameters, required quite a lot of space for their placement, mainly in height. As a result, a significant part of the cruiser’s internal space had to use to place them, which forced designers to place gun turrets closer to the ends and sides of the ship’s hull.

      At the same time, the side towers of the 210 mm guns had to be installed as far as possible from the deck superstructure and bridge, so that when shooting in the superstructure and the conning tower, it would not create excessive noise effect and shock wave. This could only be done by placing towers above the boiler room. Since only between the boiler room and the engine room there was a place for the ammunition cellars of the side towers, these cellars were placed in the area of ​​the rear pair of side towers.

      Ammunition was delivered to the front pair of side towers through a special through passage along the ship’s diametrical plane on the armored deck. Two lifts supplied shells and charges to all four side towers, which turned out to be an unsuccessful constructive solution and in battle led to a fatal outcome. "

      Therefore, I believe that the main problem of “Blucher” was its high speed.
      With such a speed, he would have looked good in the Falklands. And, with less speed, in the Baltic.
      Plus, lower speed is the best reservation.
      The most striking example is Asama. Slow, but excessively booked.
      1. 0
        9 March 2018 12: 04
        Quote: ignoto
        The most striking example is Asama. Slow moving

        Asam slow-moving? Why is this all of a sudden?
        Quote: ignoto
        but overbooked.

        Asamas (Asama and Tokiva) were just booked not very much. Slightly better than their main "hare" Russia. And in some places worse than Stormbreaker.
        What you have said can be attributed to Iwata / Izumo. And, to a lesser extent, to Yakumo and Azumo. But this is not Asama, how stubbornly taldychit runet. Far from Asam. Although structurally, the similarities are obvious. And the purpose of these ships was the same.
        There were 2 Asamians + 2 Iwate + 2 Yakumo-Azumas + 2 Garibaldians in the YAIF. This will be correct.
  30. +1
    10 March 2018 03: 46
    Quote: wer2
    Asamas (Asama and Tokiva) were just booked not very much. Slightly better than their main "hare" Russia.

    Old friend, as always, your aplomb and self-confidence stumble over the banal ignorance of the materiel. The total weight of the armor on the cruiser "Russia" was 2 090 t., a similar indicator for the cruiser "Asama" - 2 699 The difference will be even more noticeable when you compare the length and displacement of the two ships.
    And to make everything completely clear to you, I will give the weight of the armor of the battleship "Retvisan". Well compare it 2 140 t. armor with 2 699 t. of armor at Asama. So the colleague is right, but you (traditionally) are not.
    1. +1
      10 March 2018 14: 59
      If in percentage terms to the displacement, then the Russian raiders are still worse, because Russia and Gromoboy are really big. But it could not be otherwise - too different ships, for different tasks. Nevertheless, Japanese BKr was clearly not enough for the ultimate destruction of Russian Bkr in the Korea Strait.
      1. +1
        10 March 2018 17: 49
        Quote: Kibb
        Nevertheless, Japanese BKr was clearly not enough for the ultimate destruction of Russian Bkr in the Korea Strait.

        Caliber GK was selected incorrectly. The whole shift went into defense. GC guns were only enough for a half-armored cruiser (Rurik).
        1. 0
          10 March 2018 18: 35
          Yes, but it became clear only after the Strait of Korea.
          1. 0
            10 March 2018 18: 48
            Quote: Kibb
            Yes, but it became clear only after the Strait of Korea.

            And earlier one would have guessed.
            Armored scouts with GK 8 "cannons (Bayan) were already building. And against whom was this Bayan built? Against 6 thousand ton armored fighters. True, in fairness, they were considered the standard against them. 6"
            And here we have 2 times more armored giants. And against them, the defenders also have 8 "little balls. Explicit nonsense.
            I can imagine a successful battle of Iwate with an armored raider the size of the Bayan. Even the large, but half-armored Rurik was too tough for them. But armored large ships were beyond their power.
            Not for nothing that the Japanese defenders who replaced them had GK guns already had 12 ". They worked for the future. And the 10" caliber was missed. Because he had to stand on the defenders in the days of the REV.
            Now I don’t remember exactly, but if my memory serves me, then the British did not have anything suitable in this caliber. Later done.
            1. 0
              10 March 2018 19: 15
              It didn’t work out before. The Japanese interpreted the Yalu experience too incorrectly, but there was no other experience. American-Spanish did not give any experience in this regard, except for the Spaniards.
              Quote: rew2
              And here we have 2 times more armored giants

              Well, not two
              Quote: rew2
              And against them, the defenders also have 8 "little balls. Explicit nonsense.

              Explicit nonsense. But they are, like, not defenders — the fleet’s high-speed wing, and in this they are even worse.
              Quote: rew2
              I can imagine a successful battle of Iwate with an armored raider the size of the Bayan. Even the large, but half-armored Rurik was too tough for them. But armored large ships were beyond their power.

              Not too tough - the caliber is small. And they are not "defenders" - the Japanese saw them as they attribute them to the British LKR - the fleet’s high-speed wing
              I never understood what the Asamoids are good at - ships of the same war.
            2. 0
              11 March 2018 09: 53
              The 10-caliber gun was mounted on the Garibaldians, including the Kasuga. Armstrong's gun.
              1. 0
                13 March 2018 11: 33
                Well, with two 10 "Asams would have looked more interesting, but the Japanese wanted speed shooters
    2. 0
      10 March 2018 17: 42
      Quote: Comrade
      Your aplomb and self-confidence stumble over the banal ignorance of the materiel.

      Did you stop understanding Russian in Canada? Or did you never know him?
      They wrote exactly the same to you. Or is it such a way for you to boast that you have any data on ships?
      Quote: Comrade
      The total weight of the armor on the cruiser "Russia" was 2 090 tons, a similar indicator for the cruiser "Asama" - 2 699 tons.

      The total weight of Russian armor was 1947 tons.
      Russian armor was worse quality, steel + harvey. Asama's armor bvla steelworkel + garvainikel.
      Quote: Comrade
      And to make everything completely clear to you, I will give the weight of the armor of the battleship "Retvisan". Well, compare it to 2 tons of armor with 140 tons of armor for Asama.

      Are you, in all seriousness, right now you want to create another runet bike that the armored defender had more armor than the EDB 1 (!!!!!!!) class? How are you feeling?
      Retvisan had 3300 tons of armor and not just any, but a group of type 1 + chromonickel. Those. better than Asama’s armor.
      Quote: Comrade
      So the colleague is right, but you (traditionally) are not.

      Which colleague? You told in your own words exactly the same thing wer2 wrote about. Apart from your stupid Retwisan armor.
  31. +1
    10 March 2018 15: 23
    Quote: wer2
    Asamas (Asama and Tokiva) were just booked not very much

    They are booked according to the EDB standard, as soon as the CC appeared, they drove her there for the second pair and for the German and the Frenchman, but for some reason Bayan was built with a harvey.
    Quote: wer2
    But this is not Asama, how stubbornly taldychit runet

    Nothing of the kind can be done with taldychet - it’s just that simpler in discussing “Asamy” (Asamoids) “Six-thousanders”, “Noviki” - what do you order in each comment to list each ship? You, being on thematic forums should know that this is not a type of ships, but only the generally accepted "name-calling" lol
    1. 0
      10 March 2018 17: 22
      So, the Japanese of the six armadillos only have “Mikas” with Krupp armor. "Asahi" and "Shikishima" - with a harvey.
      Asamas, of course, can be divided into groups.
      First couple. Harvey, absolutely disgusting quality. Fire tube boilers. Relatively fast: 17-18 knots for a long time.
      "Yakumo." Krupp. Water tube boilers. It was considered the most perfect of the six. But not high-speed. 17 knots, with great difficulty.
      Azuma. Krupp. Water-tube boilers. Bad assembly of the CMU. The most slow-moving. Real long-term speed to the beginning of the REV -15 nodes.
      The second English couple. Krupp. Water tube boilers. Speed ​​characteristics at the level of the first pair.
      There is a point of view that two or three battleships built instead of this six, even of the Fuji type, would be more useful.
      What is not the topic for the author: "Asam" is like a mistake of Japanese (English) shipbuilding.
      1. 0
        10 March 2018 18: 01
        Quote: ignoto
        "Asahi" and "Shikishima" - with a harvey.

        With nickel harvey. Fuji and Yashima were with the harbor at the GP.
      2. 0
        10 March 2018 18: 18
        Quote: ignoto
        Asamas, of course, can be divided into groups.
        First couple. Harvey, absolutely disgusting quality. Fire tube boilers. Relatively fast: 17-18 knots for a long time.

        Harvey Nickel.
        By the beginning of the RPE, the residual continuous speed of Asama is 19,5 knots, and Tokiva is 20 knots.
        Quote: ignoto
        "Yakumo." Krupp. Water tube boilers. It was considered the most perfect of the six. But not high-speed. 17 knots, with great difficulty.

        Under 20 knots.
        Quote: ignoto
        Azuma. Krupp. Water-tube boilers. Bad assembly of the CMU. The most slow-moving. Real long-term speed to the beginning of the REV -15 nodes.

        The most popular YaIF body armor. 20,5 knots.
        Quote: ignoto
        The second English couple. Krupp. Water tube boilers. Speed ​​characteristics at the level of the first pair.

        19,6-19,8 knots.

        You stop telling tales of the drunken Pekingham.
        It’s better to think about how the Japanese, with their 15-17 knots, were able to QUASELY catch up with and overtake (cover their head) the wok, if it is known for certain that he was screwing them at a speed of 17,5 knots.
        Quote: ignoto
        There is a point of view that two or three battleships built instead of this six, even of the Fuji type, would be more useful.

        Actually, the Japanese were very afraid of the Russian raider war at sea. They didn’t even buy absolutely suitable garibaldies for this.
        But they were afraid of Russian linear forces. And Mikasa with Asahi were obviously bought in vain. As the practice of 4 EBRs (3 new. 1 classes + 1 old. 1 classes) showed the NIF to resolve the issue with the RIF (1 new 1 class + 1 new. EDB 1 class between the old and new + 1 old. 1 class + 1 old. 2 classes) was enough. If only mine banks would not intervene. As was the case with Hatsuse and Yashima. This is where the reserve of 2 EDBs came in handy.
        Quote: ignoto
        What is not the topic for the author: "Asam" is like a mistake of Japanese (English) shipbuilding.

        In fact, there is a topic. But it concerns only the caliber of the GK guns. You won’t squeeze a lot out of there.
        1. 0
          11 March 2018 10: 24
          And then fairy tales? Although, about fairy tales, in the conclusion of the post. The history of world military shipbuilding has completely debunked all miracles. Well, except, perhaps, the Asam miracle. How ships smaller than the displacement armadillos, with armored, that is, not high-speed contours, overloaded with armor, with very "gentle" lightweight CMU managed to go with 20 knots. But no way. Except on acceptance tests. The “miracles” of the Italian WWII cruisers have already been exposed: their real speeds were much lower. The "miracles" of the Japanese heavy cruisers were also exposed: their displacement was much higher than the declared. And about the "miracle" "Asam" all stumble. But, personally, I believe S. Balakin and his monograph.
          Now, about the tales.
          I am a person who received a professional historical education back in Soviet times. And I’m used to checking all the information. And I’m used to that there are different points of view on the same problem. Thank you for this I will say to my dean, who led historiography. I don’t avoid technical issues. Thanks for that to those "great old men", designers and technologists with whom I had to write a book on the history of a large industrial enterprise. I was disappointed in the traditional version of history .. It was representatives of the technical and natural sciences who did a lot for this. Therefore, the existing version of the REE is in great doubt. Not only that, it is almost written off from the Spanish-American war, and Russia's actions are very reminiscent of the "game of giveaways." Which indicates that the official version is a literary hoax, written by order of the winners.
      3. 0
        13 March 2018 11: 52
        Well, for me, Asama’s typical mistake, the Japanese simply won the war with a crushing score on the ships, and no one notices the error
    2. 0
      10 March 2018 18: 00
      Quote: Kibb
      They are booked in accordance with the EDB

      About Yakum, Iwate, Izumo do not mind. Asama and Tokiwa have already dropped out of this standard due to the obsolescence of armor. Azuma was booked hybrid, bottom of the EBR. Top, cruising.
      Guns at all rubbish for such ships.
      Quote: Kibb
      But for some reason Bayan was built with harvey.

      With nickel harvey. And this is not a steel harvey. This was done because some plates, because of their thickness, could not be made from Krupp armor. And to make them from chromonickel had no sense. Therefore, for the same money they chose a very good compromise option.
      Quote: Kibb
      then this is not a type of ship, but only the generally accepted "little name"

      Well, let the little cat. But the ships are different in strength. It is especially bad when they talk about 8 asamoids, adding there very other Garibaldians.
      Yes, and compare Iwate with Asmay, is also clearly not a camilpho. Asama had 146 mm of the total reduced group in the critical place of booking the GP armor. And Iwate, 224 mm of the total reduced krupp. Are these the same ships?
  32. +2
    11 March 2018 06: 29
    Quote: rew2
    The total weight of Russian armor was 1947 tons.




    You took your number here


    But this does not matter, since the weight of the Asama armor exceeded the corresponding figures for both Russia and Gromoboy.
    How is this known, you ask? From here




    Quote: rew2
    Russian armor was worse quality, steel + harvey. Asama's armor bvla steelworkel + garvainikel.

    Not so, in fact, there was excellent armor on “Russia”, but only in domestic sources they do not write about it. But if we open the required issue of the American journal Scientific American, then we can read a wonderful article on the tests of vertical armor made for the cruiser Russia. There are photographs of the plates, and the number of shots, and the caliber, and the initial velocity of the projectile, and the firing range and the consequences of being hit - everything is listed.
    The trick is that this Harvey armor was not much inferior to the Krupp armor. I have an article in development dedicated to the technical characteristics of the armor delivered to "Russia" and "Retvisan," the materials were taken from their American scientific journals, so I own the topic :-)

    Quote: rew2
    Are you really seriously want to create another runet bike right now that the armored armor protector had more armor than the 1 (!!!!!!!) class EDB?





    The figure you quoted is taken from the same source,

    but it is not weight armor, and weight armor protection, including, as you know, not only actually armor.

    On the occasion of the next “ban”, a quote from O. Bender: “A year or two, and then your red curls become familiar and you will simply be beaten.” In your case, Nikolai, this is a day or two from strength. Applied :-)
    PS
    You can not bother yourself with a response comment, there will be no answer to it.
    1. 0
      11 March 2018 07: 43
      Quote: Comrade
      On the occasion of the next “ban”, a quote from O. Bender: “A year or two, and then your red curls become familiar and you will simply be beaten.” In your case, Nikolai, this is a day or two from strength. Applied :-)


      Without his comments, it will be boring.
      1. 0
        11 March 2018 10: 13
        Quote: 27091965i
        Without his comments, it will be boring.

        It will be boring without the "statues" of Chelyabinsk Andrey. Without his "blizzard" and there will be nothing to comment on.
        And Comrade is able to drive into a coffin. For a long and tedious, accusatory tone, he confirms what the opponent wrote to him from the very beginning. Amazing ability to bring to the handle even the pillar.
        1. 0
          11 March 2018 10: 22
          It will be boring without the "statues" of Chelyabinsk Andrey. Without his "blizzard" and there will be nothing to comment on.


          Everyone has the right to their point of view, but it must be confirmed by reference to a particular publication or document. Without confirmation, this is a "theorem" that still requires proof.
          1. +2
            11 March 2018 10: 40
            In fairness, not all statements can be easily confirmed by hard proofs, but you just believe some of them because they fit perfectly into the big picture and explain a lot. those. look generally logical or at least believable, like a puzzle element that elegantly fits in its place. But when more or less logical and inconsistent facts begin to replace precisely with the "blizzard", which is not confirmed by proofs, it is also located somewhere between fairy tales and delirium by its logic ...
            1. +1
              11 March 2018 11: 10
              Quote: arturpraetor
              But when more or less logical and inconsistent facts begin to replace precisely with the “blizzard”, which is not confirmed by proofs, it is also located somewhere between fairy tales and delirium by its logic.


              It seems to me that these errors occur when translating a document or book. I use OCR very often, but this program gives 80 - 85 percent, and considering that it is also a text editor, very strange conclusions appear.
              1. +1
                11 March 2018 11: 41
                If everything was so simple ...)) Some are simply not able to analyze the facts adequately, adding emotions at best, and at worst - their own inventions, or even completely replace knowledge and understanding with these very inventions. I remember I had a chance to somehow communicate with a stubborn one who proved with foam at the mouth that Alaska was sold by Catherine the Great wassat
                1. 0
                  11 March 2018 12: 04
                  Quote: arturpraetor
                  If everything was so simple ...))


                  Honestly simple. A few for memory;

                  cruiser monitor - armored ram;

                  thin-armored armored cruiser - armored cruiser "New York";

                  ship of protection of a water zone - the ship of the Navy;

                  There are a lot of such translations.



                  Quote: arturpraetor
                  and at worst, their own inventions, or even completely replace knowledge and understanding with these very inventions.


                  The answer is given above.
          2. 0
            11 March 2018 10: 47
            Quote: 27091965i
            but it must be supported by reference to a specific publication or document

            Well, let's say you can agree with the document. But with the publication ... But there was still such a ridiculous category of explicit "ideologically correct" misinformation as the "Soviet edition" ... One cannot agree with this in any way.
            Moreover, what about the category of "knowledge"? What to refer to if you have knowledge? Not everyone remembers quotes from "smart books" and then they rub them. In the literal sense of the word.
            Here with the same Varangian. I (and everyone who understands this issue) do not need to know who wrote what about him. I am referring to its dimensions, contours (this is very important), weight load, the nature of weapons and other performance characteristics. And that's all, I understand what is in front of me. I understand why it was built (or was suitable). And it does not matter how it was used - this is another topic.
            The same Varyag drove to the role of a hospital in Chumulpo, is it from a big mind?
            The same Retvizan, the only RIF-EDB raider, was not used for its intended purpose for a single day. Even after the destruction of 1TOE. Is it from a big mind?
            And how to describe the Tsushima adventure of the RIF with literary words?
            Therefore, it is not necessary to look at the use of ships in the RIF. The admirals did not have much intelligence.
            Quote: 27091965i
            Without confirmation, this is a "theorem" that still requires proof.

            You are confusing the boltology forum with some other place. No one owes anything to anyone here.
            1. 0
              11 March 2018 11: 13
              Here with the same Varangian. I (and everyone who understands this issue) do not need to know who wrote what about him. I am referring to its dimensions, contours (this is very important), weight load, the nature of weapons and other performance characteristics. And that's all, I understand what is in front of me.


              Let me ask you a question. What relationship does the Varyag cruiser have with the US Navy Secretary?
        2. +1
          11 March 2018 17: 58
          Quote: ewr2
          It will be boring without the "statues" of Chelyabinsk Andrey. Without his "blizzard" and there will be nothing to comment on.


          Publish your snowstorm then. Oh, then you are still much more than that.
    2. 0
      11 March 2018 10: 31
      That's boring. For some reason, I decided to retell in my own words, SAME, about what I wrote to him from the very beginning.
      Quote: Comrade
      But this does not matter, since the weight of the Asama armor exceeded the corresponding figures for both Russia and Gromoboy.

      Oh really!!!!! Who would have thought!!!!! Sensation!!!!!!!
      And what did you write?
      Quote: wer2
      Asamas (Asama and Tokiva) were just booked not very much. Slightly better than their main "hare" Russia. And in some places worse than Stormbreaker.

      “Armor weight” and “worse booked in places” are different categories. You do not seem to know this.
      So, at GP Gromoboya there was a minimum of 181 mm of the reduced krupp. And Asama, 146 mm reduced krupp. Although the armor itself on Gromomboy was only 2097 tons. There, a little higher, you confused the weight of the Thunderbolt armor with the weight of the Russian armor. Yes, and with the weight of the armor Retvizana amused me pretty much.
      Quote: Comrade
      in fact, the "Russia" was a great armor

      Great classification. Will armor now be divided into excellent and crap?
      Quote: Comrade
      we will open the desired issue of the American journal "Scientific American"

      You don’t even shake your murders. I know very well how one armor differs from another. And how they relate to each other in terms of durability.
      Quote: Comrade
      The trick is that this Harvey armor was not much inferior to the Krupp armor.

      You don’t even know that the Harvey armor, like the Krupp armor, was of two types - on the basis of steel bronze and on the basis of nickel. That's darkness.
      Quote: Comrade
      I have an article in development dedicated to the technical characteristics of armor

      And let you close it? This topic. And then I imagine what you roam about there.
      Quote: Comrade
      put on "Russia" and "Retvisan", the materials are taken from their American scientific journals, so I own the topic :-)

      By the fact that you do not know that the Harvey armor was of 2 types, I can already see what you "own" there.
      Quote: Comrade
      but this is not the weight of the armor, but the weight of the armor protection, which, as you know, includes not only the armor itself.

      And what else did you decide to include in the weight of the armor? Substrate and bolts?
      Well, you froze stupidity. Why get out in a stupid way?
      3300 tons of armor for the EDB, this is not much. On the same Mikas was 4100 tons. There are 4500 on Sikishima. And you allocated only 2100 tons there for Retvisan. And keep carrying the blizzard.
      Quote: Comrade
      You can not bother yourself with a response comment, there will be no answer to it.

      And what, are you able to answer something? All your "verses" of a broken penny are not worth it. Transfusion from empty to empty what was told to you and attempts to get out of said stupidity. That is all that I see.
  33. 0
    11 March 2018 07: 27
    Quote: ignoto
    Azuma. Krupp. Water-tube boilers. Bad assembly of the CMU. The most slow-moving. Real long-term speed to the beginning of the REV -15 nodes.

    The facts are that in the Tsushima battle, Kamimura’s detachment kept seventeen without any problems while Togo walked fifteen. In general, thanks to the English observers, in their reports they often indicated not only the speed of a ship or formation, but also the time or episode of the battle.
    1. 0
      11 March 2018 11: 08
      I trust the monograph of S. Balakin. Which contains a list of references. To a large extent, English. On page number 20 of his monograph, p. Balakin gives an assessment of the speed characteristics of cruisers of the Asama type.
      As for the Tsushima battle, there is no single version of this event.
      For example, the Japanese use of "miracle shells." If they couldn’t equip 12 "shells on their own, then where did they come from. If the English have liddit, then liddit is not a shimoza. And why, after such success, the British continued to equip their large-caliber shells with black powder, and the Japanese ended up without WWII Why did the Germans, equipping their shells with pyroxylin, which was 1,45 times higher than the liddit, continued to improve the armor-piercing shell, and if this can be attributed to the European tendency to increase the booking area, then the American system is “all or nothing” ... It is enough to recall that in WWII the modern battleship was actually incapacitated after a skirmish with cruisers and destroyers, which fired at it with armor-piercing shells.
      1. 0
        13 March 2018 10: 26
        Quote: ignoto
        I trust the monograph of S. Balakin

        In vain. There are many mistakes, and one of them is just the speed
        1. 0
          13 March 2018 22: 48
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          In vain. There are many mistakes

          Are monographs better?
  34. +3
    12 March 2018 08: 41
    Stunned. belay As part of the comments of one article, a person writes under two (or maybe more) nicknames, and is inclined to an “alternative” interpretation.
    1. +1
      12 March 2018 10: 41
      Three. wer2, rew2, ewr2 wassat