Military Review

No "Mongols" in Russia XIII-XV centuries. did not have

281
780 years ago, 4 March 1238, the decisive battle of the Russian troops and the Horde on the River Sit took place. Russian army was destroyed, the Grand Duke of Vladimir Yuri Vsevolodovich died.


This battle finally broke the resistance of Vladimir-Suzdal Russia and predetermined the fall of North-Eastern Russia into dependence on the Horde Empire.

Pogrom of Vladimir-Suzdal Russia

After the capture of Vladimir 7 in February 1238, Batu and his military leaders were able to divide the forces of the Horde army and separate corps to smash Russian cities as centers of resistance of the Russian land. Russian squads and pockets should be suppressed separately, until they were united in the army of the Grand Duke. In addition, the Horde command was going to cut off the army of Grand Duke Yuri Vsevolodovich, who left Vladimir before his fall, from Novgorod. Mr. Novgorod the Great with its vast suburbs (the so-called cities dependent on Novgorod) could expose a large army, which, together with the troops of the Grand Duke and his henchmen princes, already represented a serious threat to the Batu army. The troops of Batu were already weakened by fierce and bloody battles during the storming of Ryazan, battles with Kolovrat's squad, battles at Kolomna and the capture of Vladimir. Ordyntsy planned to crush the army of Yuri Vsevolodovich, who collected forces in the Volga forests, in the camp on the River Sit, before the Novgorod reinforcements arrived.

Solving these problems, the army of Batu moved from Vladimir in three main directions: to the north - to Rostov and further beyond the Volga, where the Grand Duke Yuri gathered troops; eastward to the Middle Volga; to the north-west - to Tver and Torzhok. Apparently, the Horde did not know the exact location of the Grand Duke’s headquarters and the collection of the Grand Duke’s troops, but they could have an idea from the prisoners about the general direction of the movement of Prince Yuri.

Ordyntsy passed on the ice of the Nerl to the lake Nero and approached Rostov. It was an ancient big city, where the old boyars enjoyed great influence. The city surrendered without a fight and suffered less from the Horde. From Rostov the Horde troops led by the commander Burundai went further to the north, to Uglich. Through Uglich lay the shortest road to the tributaries of the Mologa, to the River City, where the Grand Duke Yuri stood with his retinue. Uglich, apparently, also surrendered without a fight. Obviously, this was due to the fact that the squads from the cities went to Sit to the Grand Duke, and the local boyars preferred to agree and they knew how to do it. The rich trading cities could allocate the big tribute. The Horde princes were not interested in an all-out war of annihilation, they needed rich lands to enter the Horde and pay tribute. The points of resistance were extinguished as hard as possible in order to frighten the others. With the rest preferred to negotiate.

A detachment was sent from Rostov, which went east to Yaroslavl. The city gave battle to the invaders and was severely destroyed. Meanwhile, the eastern unit Horde, passed through Starodub and Gorodets. This campaign allowed the pogroms of the rich Volga cities and cut off the Grand Duke from the Volga, and the local troops could not unite with Yuri. Horde went from Vladimir on the ice of the Klyazma River to Starodub. Prince Ivan Vsevolodovich Starodubsky in advance sent the family, his property and the property of Svyatoslav from Yuryev “beyond Gorodets beyond the Volga into the woods”. Apparently, others followed his example. Horodynts straight from Starodub, through the forests came out to Gorodets, which stood on the left bank of the Volga. The city of Gorokhovets, located on Klyaz'ma below Starodub, was not injured during this campaign (it was defeated in the 1239 year, during the campaign on Murom). From Gorodets the Horde troops went up the Volga, smashing the Volga cities. “On the Volga, all the grades are poplenish,” the Russian chronicler noted. Separate detachments went far to the north, up to Galich-Mery and Vologda.

For that part of the army of Batu, which went from Vladimir to the north-west, Pereyaslavl-Zalessky became the first serious obstacle. It was a fortress on the shortest waterway from the Klyazma river basin to Veliky Novgorod. This waterway went along the whole system of rivers and lakes: along Klyazma, Nerl, Plescheev Lake, Nerl, Volga, Tvertsa, Msta and Ilmensky Lake. Pereyaslavl at that time was a strong fortress and the base of the great princes. In the 1195 year, half a century before the Batu invasion, the fortress was re-cut down. The defensive walls of the city reached 10 - 16 meters and, in their power, were inferior to the shafts of only the capital Vladimir. Wooden double walls with 12 towers complemented the fortification system. In addition, from the north the city was covered by the river Trubezh, from other sides - a deep ditch. Pereyaslavl was taken, according to Rashid ad-Din, by the tsarevich together for 5 days. In place of a flourishing city, a huge conflagration remains.

From Pereyaslavl, some Horde troops went north on the ice of Lake Pleshcheyevo to cut the great Volga route. In the area of ​​Ksnyatin, they reached the Volga and went up the great river. Other detachments turned to Yuriev, defeated him, went further west, through Dmitrov, Volok-Lamsky to Tver. In the district of Tver, the Horde, who marched from Yuriev, united with the troops, climbing up the Volga from Ksnyatin. Tver also fiercely resisted and beat off attacks for five days.

Thus, the army of Batu ruined and burned almost all the major cities of the Upper Volga and the Klyazma and Volga interfluves. Only in February, 1238, in Vladimir-Suzdal Russia, fell 14 cities, not counting settlements and graveyards.

No "Mongols" in Russia XIII-XV centuries. did not have

The defeat of the North-Eastern Russia. Map source: V. V. Kargalov. Mongol-Tatar invasion of Russia

Battle of the City River

By the beginning of March, the troops of Batu on a broad front reached the line of the Upper Volga. Grand Duke Yuri Vsevolodovich at that time was gathering troops in the camp on the River City (north-west of the modern Yaroslavl region) and was in close proximity to the Horde forward detachments. From Uglich and Kashin the body of the temnik of Burundi, one of the best commanders of Batu, moved.

The camp on the City River was chosen because of its remoteness from busy places and at the same time because of the ease of gathering troops and their supplies. Deaf forests, snow and deserted territory covered the grand duke's army from enemy cavalry. It was difficult to find a path and guides. The Grand Duke hoped to sit out for the woods, waiting for reinforcements. Yuri Vsevolodovich came to Syt only with his nephews Vasilko Rostov, Vsevolod Yaroslavsky and Vladimir Uglichsky (sons of the Grand Duke of Vladimir Konstantin Vsevolodovich) and with the "small army".

Reinforcements were expected from the rich and crowded Novgorod, where the rules of the brother of the Grand Duke - Yaroslav Vsevolodovich. It was there that the land road from the City, which was closed to the Horde by forests, led from. In addition, over the ice, Mologi approached the City by sledding: from the south - from the Volga and from the north - from Beloozer. This route was important for the supply of the grand duke's troops, ensured the arrival of reinforcements and supplies from the rich Volga and northern cities, and, if necessary, made it possible to retreat to even more remote and sparsely populated areas.

Perhaps the Grand Duke would have been able to assemble a large army to give a decisive battle to the enemy (he had more than a month), but the same reason that allowed the Horde people to smash the Russian lands and cities separately — the feudal fragmentation, the selfish interests of the princes and their boyars The princes did not rush to the aid of their "elder brother". Obviously, everyone thought that they would be able to sit out behind the high walls, save the squads, come to an agreement with the Horde and even benefit from the situation. Strong Novgorod regiments, on which the Grand Duke had high hopes, did not go to the City at all. “And I was waiting for my brother Yaroslav, and there wasn’t him,” noted the chronicler. The squads of many cities and princedoms, forced due to the rapid invasion of the enemy to make their way to the grand-ducal camp by detour, through the woods, did not have time to start the battle. So it was, for example, with the squad of Starodubsky Prince Ivan, who advanced to the aid of the Grand Duke, went secretly in the forests, but was late. Yuryevskaya squad of Grand Prince Svyatoslav Vsevolodovich's brother came to Sit. As a result, a large army to collect the Grand Duke failed.

The army of Burundi reached the Volga in the Uglich area by the beginning of March 1238. The fact that the well-fortified cities of Rostov and Uglich surrendered without a fight, although they could have detained the enemy, and the Horde were close to the Sith forests, was unexpected for the Grand Duke. Apparently, the fact that the organization of long-range intelligence was badly played a major role in the defeat of Russian rati. When rumors of the enemy approaching reached Yury Vsevolodovich, he sent 3-thousand to reconnaissance. detachment Voivode Dorozha (Dorofei). The remaining troops were headed by Vladimir voivode Zhiroslav Mikhailovich, who began to hastily prepare the regiments for battle.

As subsequent events showed, these measures were not enough. The guard service was organized poorly, and the appearance of the enemy troops near the Russian camp was a surprise for the Grand Duke and his commander. The South Russian chronicler noted that Yuri Vsevolodovich was standing on the City, "having no guard". The detachment of the voivode of the Road, hastily advanced forward, not only did not have time to warn a sudden attack, but he himself was ambushed and exterminated. Voivode Road rode to the Grand Duke with the news that the enemy was already surrounding the Russian camp. The fact that the attack of the regiments of Burundi was unexpected for the Russian squads is reported by Russian chronicles: "... suddenly hedging tatarave."

The unexpected attack, which immediately put the Russian troops in a very difficult position, preventing them from meeting the enemy fully armed or retreating in time when superior forces appeared, was aggravated by the placement of the grand duke’s ratius. In the City there were no large settlements, and the troops in winter conditions (it was impossible to stand in the field) were deployed in individual villages. In order to collect them in one place it took time, but it was not there. In addition, the first onslaught of the enemy could be contained based on the previously prepared strong fortifications - ditches, ramparts, paling. But on the City there were neither cities with their strong fortifications, nor feudal manor castles. Yuri Vsevolodovich made an attempt to strengthen the camp with shafts, but they were not finished by the beginning of the battle. The chroniclers will not report that the Horde had to storm some fortifications on the City.

Thus, the enemy cavalry, destroying the forward detachment of Voivode Dorozha and unexpectedly attacking the camp of the Grand Duke, did not meet with any strong organized resistance. Russian regiments did not have time to pack up and line up for battle. “The prince began to put the regiments around himself, and suddenly the Tatars had grown, the prince did not have time,” the chronicle reported. However, the Russians took the fight. Started "slashing evil." Vladimir squads did not withstand the onslaught of superior forces and ran. Horde pursued them to the mouth of the river. Russian army was destroyed. The Grand Prince Yury Vsevolodovich, his voivode Zhiroslav Mikhailovich, the Yaroslavl Prince Vsevolod Konstantinovich died in the battle. The captured Rostov prince Vasilko Konstantinovich was also captured. Svetoslav Vsevolodovich and Vladimir Konstantinovich Uglich were saved. Apparently, this was due to the fact that the Russian squads did not join the battle all at once, and those coming to the place of the massacre had the opportunity to slip away from other places.

The defeat of the Russian troops finally broke the resistance of the princes of North-Eastern Russia and predetermined the fall of Vladimir-Suzdal Russia into dependence on the Horde. After the death of the Grand Duke Yuri, his brother, the prince of Pereyaslavl, Yaroslav Vsevolodovich, took the grand throne.

The army of Burundi was weakened after the battle - “they suffered a great ulcer, they fell and a considerable number of them”. In general, the baty troops suffered heavy losses after the devastation of the Ryazan and Vladimir-Suzdal principalities.


Battle of the City Miniature XVII.

Heroic Defense Torzhok

When moving to the north, Batu's troops rested against Torzhok. The ancient Russian city, a fortress on the southern borders of the Novgorod land, which locked the shortest path from the “Nizovsky land” (the Novgorod Vladimir-Suzdal Russia was so called) to Novgorod along the Tvertsa river. Torzhok for his history more than once became an arena of battle and had a strong defense. The earthen embankment surrounding the city reached 12 - 13 meters. On three sides, the fortress was covered by the river Tvertsa, and on the fourth - a deep ditch, which turned the city into a real island.

Horde "stumbled Torzhok" 22 February 1238, and unexpectedly met with fierce resistance. Get a small town on the move failed. At this time there was no prince and professional squad in Torzhok. The defense was held by the city militia, headed by posadnik Ivanko, Yakim Vlunkovich, Gleb Borisovich and Mikhailo Moiseevich. Faced with a strong resistance, the Horde moved to the correct siege. They "cast asunder" the whole city, brought siege vehicles - "vices." Separate detachments smashing to the city along the Upper Volga were attached to the city.

The townspeople fought back, waiting for help from Novgorod, their "older" city. But help never came. Novgorod boyars preferred to sit behind forests and marshes, hoping for a near spring thaw. After a two-week siege, "people were exhausted in the city." In several places, the walls collapsed and the Horde broke into hail. March 5 Torzhok fell and “hashed everything from men to sex and to Zhensk ...”. A small detachment was able to break through from the lost city and flee to the north along the "Seliger Road". They were pursued by the Horde, according to the chronicles, to the “Ignach-Krest”, from which 100 versts remained until Novgorod.

Batu did not go to Novgorod. Researchers attribute the rejection of the campaign to the rich Novgorod with the lack of time in the conditions of approaching the spring thaw and great losses in previous battles. For the battle of Novgorod, if the Russians would go out into the field, and for the siege of a crowded and well-fortified city, Batu did not have enough strength near Torzhok. The army of Burundi suffered serious losses and stood in the Volga forests to get to Torzhok it took at least two weeks. Even more time was required for detachments that stood in the area of ​​Yaroslavl and Kostroma. The big forces for striking the Novgorod Batyi could gather near Torzhok only in the end of March - the beginning of April. And before Novgorod there were still about 300 km, which had to be overcome by a large army with carts and siege weapons. In April, the Novgorodian forests and marshes became impassable for the troops. Therefore, the Horde Council decided to withdraw the troops to the south in the steppe.

Russians fought with the "Chinese"?

Continuing the theme “Mongols and Mongolia”, which allegedly conquered Russia, it is necessary to make a brief analysis of the movie “Legend of the Kolovrat” of 2017. Like fantasy - the film is not bad. We drew beautiful Russian cities (it is a pity that without the mighty ramparts and moats), the Terema-Mansion, the dressers did their best. The episodes show revived paintings of medieval Russia. They showed the Russian spirit, the military and even the old man-righteous, whom the bear listens. True, they overdid it with its size, not a ber-bear, but a whole elephant. Showing the values ​​of family, love for the motherland and its people, readiness for self-sacrifice. Showed the egoism of princes from other principalities that did not bring the regiments to the aid of Ryazan.

The problem is that the majority of young people, and adults as well, perceive the film as historical. And then there are serious questions. First, the authors of the film strongly circumcised and distorted what we know from sources like The Tale of the Ruin of Ryazan Batu. So, in Ryazan knew about the arrival of the enemy, there was no panic. Even when the Horde crushed the Polovtsian camps, in Russia they knew about the arrival of a formidable enemy. Horde sent their envoys to Ryazan, demanded tithing. Ryazan sent a response embassy with the son of the great Ryazan prince Fyodor. The embassy died. Ryazan gathered and exposed a host who met the enemy on the borders of the principality and died in a fierce battle. Ambassadors for help to other principalities were sent in advance. Among such ambassadors was voivode Evpaty Kolovrat. And he fought not with 2-3 by dozens of warriors and men, but by a strong retinue from hundreds of fighters, whom he brought from Chernigov and whom he gathered around Ryazan. Therefore, trashing the backs of the Batu army and was able to turn on the best Baty regiments.

Secondly, many immediately noticed the desire of the creators of the picture to repeat the success of the film "300 Spartans." Batu Khan and his army are very similar to the Persian "horde". Well, that though the Mongols did not draw animals. Here and flying Horde special forces, saboteurs on ropes jumping with bows from the rocks, although it is more convenient to shoot at the enemy from the spot.

Thirdly, the Horde and Batu in the film are not even “Mongols from Mongolia”, but real Chinese, with their own clothes and symbolism (dragon). It turns out that the Russians fought not even with the "Mongols", but the Chinese.

As noted more than once no Mongol- "Chinese" in Russia XIII-XV centuries. did not have (not counting individual representatives in the form of scholars, slaves, concubines, etc.). The Mongols and the Chinese are a Mongoloid race. Russians-Russ are Caucasians, like Volgari Bulgars (future Kazan Tatars), Polovtsy, Pechenegs, and Sarmatians and Scythians before them. Horde - also Caucasians, representatives of the white race. Neither in Ryazan, nor in Vladimir-Suzdal, nor in the Kiev lands was there any skulls of Mongoloids. No signs of Mongoloid and the local population. Although if the Mongol horde of tens of thousands of warriors had passed through the Russian lands, cutting out the Russian population and raping women, and then had dominated Russia for more than one hundred years, such signs would have been. Because Mongoloid is dominant, overwhelming: it was enough for thousands of Mongols to rape thousands of Russian women, and Russian burial grounds would be filled for many generations with representatives of the Mongoloid race. But in the Russian burial grounds and mounds of the Horde since the Europeans lie. As a result, despite attempts by Western and Ukrainian propagandists to write down Russian-Muscovites to Asians - descendants of the Mongols and Finno-Finns, Russians are typical representatives of the white race. Moreover, the Russians retained their anthropological (racial) signs better than, for example, the French, Italians, or the “true Aryans” - the Germans.

Mongols in Russia since the “Mongol invasion and the Tatar-Mongol yoke” did not exist. If the innumerable “Mongolian” tumens of darkness had walked through Russia, as we are told in numerous books and shown in films, the anthropological Mongoloid material in Russian soil would certainly have remained. After all, the battles and storming of cities were, there was an invasion. Thousands of people died. However, Mongoloid in Russia appears only in the XVI-XVII centuries. together with the Tatars, who serve the Russian tsars and, being originally Caucasians, receive Mongoloid signs on the eastern frontiers, where they start mixing with the Turks, who have a strong Mongoloid admixture and the Mongoloids themselves.

And the real Mongols themselves simply could not reach from the borders of China to Russia. During the "Mongol" invasion and the creation of the "Mongol" empire, they were at a very low level of development. Approximately at the level of most of the Indian tribes of North or South America - hunters, primitive herders. Primitive shepherds and hunters could not create a Eurasian empire. It's fantastic.

The Russian chronicles did not report anything about the "Mongols", but they wrote about "Tatars", "unclean", that is, pagans. As the historian Yu.D. Petukhov notes in his work “The Antiquities of the Rus”: “The huge forest-steppe spaces of the Northern Black Sea region through the Southern Urals to Altai, the Sayans and Mongolia itself, the spaces that idle writers settled with the fictional“ Mongols ”, actually belonged to the well-known science “To the proto-Scythian-Siberian world”, and then to the Scythian-Siberian one ”.

Long before the departure of the last wave of Aryan-Indo-Europeans, who in the second millennium BC. er left the Northern Black Sea region and the Southern Urals to Iran and India, having created great civilizations there, the European Indo-Europeans mastered the forest-steppe zone from the Carpathians and the Danube to the Sayans and Northern China. They reigned supreme on the vast expanses of Eastern Europe, where they were known as Cimmerians, Scythians, Tauroskifs and Sarmatians, to the borders of Japan and China - in the east, and in the south - adjacent to the civilizations of Iran and India.

“These proto-Scythians and Eastern Scythians-Scytes, moving slowly, in generations, periodically settling behind land, reached Mongolia. And dominated it, bringing there and ironwork, and the art of riding, and agriculture, and civilization as a whole. The local Mongoloids, who were in the Mesolithic (Middle Stone Age), simply could not compete with these "Scyphos-Siberians." It is the memory of them, tall and light-eyed Caucasians, later gave rise to the legends of the Russian species and the blue-eyed Genghis Khan. ... The military elite, the nobility, the warriors of Transbaikalia, Khakassia, Mongolia of those times were the Indo-Europeans-Europeans. Huge generations of “Scythos-Siberians” were the only real force that could conquer China, Central Asia ... And they did this, later dissolving into the Mongoloid masses of the East, but retaining their memory as fair-haired and gray-eyed giants ... ”.

Thus, in Russia, two fragments of the great northern civilization, the legendary Hyperborea, the late Great Scythia, descended in the battle of the Titans. Ruses of Ryazan, Vladimir and Kiev fought with the late Scythian clans of the Asian part of the northern tradition. Anthropologically and genetically late Scythians-Horde were the same Rus-Russians as the Russians, who lived in Suzdal or Chernihiv. Outwardly, they differed in the dialect of the Russian language (like today's Russians and "Ukrainians"), in faith they were pagan- "trashy", in the style of clothing and life ("Scythian-Siberian animal style"). Therefore, the Horde (from the Russian words “kin”, “glad”) did not bring much to Russia and relatively quickly (historically) became part of the united Russian Empire, which was finally formed in the era of Ivan the Terrible.

That is why the Scythians of the Horde-Rada quite easily found a common language with the princes and boyars of Russia, became related, framed, married daughters to princes and princes-khans. The Horde were Caucasians, Eastern relatives of Russians. Therefore, the population of the Golden Horde flowed into the Russian super-ethnos quite naturally, without “Mongoloid signs.” Russia and the Horde became a united Russian empire, which again extended from the Pacific Ocean, the borders of Japan, Korea and Japan to Eastern Europe.
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Articles from this series:
The myth of the invasion of the Mongols from Mongolia

Why create a fake about the "Mongol" invasion of Russia
The myth of the "Tatar-Mongol yoke"
How the troops of Batu stormed Vladimir
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  1. Korsar4
    Korsar4 5 March 2018 06: 24
    +3
    The two parts are little connected. So who are Batu and Burundi?
    1. 210ox
      210ox 5 March 2018 07: 07
      +9
      In my opinion, I already read this a couple of months ago .. And yet .. And who is Genghis Khan? A group of pensioners from Germany, or is it a Mongol warrior prince?
      Quote: Korsar4
      The two parts are little connected. So who are Batu and Burundi?
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 5 March 2018 09: 10
        +11
        Quote: 210ox
        In my opinion, I already read this a couple of months ago.

        It was a couple of months and a year ago.
        The main thing that we must learn is that
        Baty-this dad,
        Mom-this Mama
        yes
        Because other traces of the centuries-old "great civilization" (cities, roads, dams, etc.) cannot be seen in the vastness of the Urals to Altai ... request
        1. reservist
          reservist 5 March 2018 14: 42
          +1
          Quote: Olgovich
          ... cities, roads, dams, etc.

          Why do nomads need dams?
      2. Monarchist
        Monarchist 5 March 2018 13: 50
        +7
        Comrades, Corsair and OKW, Samsonov tells you in Russian that they are Hyperbereans. And Genghis Khan only twisted the tails of horses
        1. zenion
          zenion 5 March 2018 15: 44
          +1
          Then Tamerlane was not there!
          1. Rey_ka
            Rey_ka 6 March 2018 11: 10
            +2
            Tamerlane is a completely different opera however
      3. co-creator
        co-creator 5 March 2018 14: 17
        +1
        Quote: 210ox
        And who is Genghis Khan? A group of pensioners from Germany, or is it still a Mongol warrior prince?

        The literal translation is the eastern khan. For example, there were hundreds of Genghis Khan in Kazakhstan and they call them Genghis Khan.
        1. saigon
          saigon 5 March 2018 17: 08
          +3
          And forgive the literal translation from what language? From Sanbiysky, Turkic, or from what?
          1. co-creator
            co-creator 5 March 2018 17: 29
            +2
            Translation into Russian.
            1. Hantengri
              Hantengri 5 March 2018 17: 35
              +3
              Quotation: blooded man
              Translation into Russian.

              So the hedgehog is clear that in Russian. From what into Russian, that’s the question!
              1. co-creator
                co-creator 5 March 2018 18: 24
                +1
                What is the essence of the issue?
                Whose word is Genghis Khan?
                1. saigon
                  saigon 5 March 2018 19: 37
                  +3
                  So the current Mongolian language in those days somehow did not form.
                  So I'm interested in what language literal translation?
                  From Oirat, Naiman, Merkitsky or Sanbiyskog, Uryankhai?
                  1. co-creator
                    co-creator 5 March 2018 23: 59
                    +2
                    Quote: saigon
                    So the current Mongolian language in those days somehow did not form.
                    So I'm interested in what language literal translation?

                    Hmm ... Let me think. The Mongolian name is literally translated into Russian .. So what language is this name .. Damn, it’s very difficult, very. No dude, I can't afford this task.
                    1. Rey_ka
                      Rey_ka 6 March 2018 11: 16
                      +5
                      seriously, the Mongols themselves only recently learned that they owned half the world
                    2. saigon
                      saigon 6 March 2018 19: 21
                      0
                      I also forgot about the Kereits, too, then chastali along the same steppes. Moreover, the aforementioned kereites are mentioned in Bichurin. The list of tribes and peoples can be continued even further, but the interpretation of the eastern khan in connection with Genghis Khan is a new word in the history of Asia.
                      1. co-creator
                        co-creator 6 March 2018 19: 30
                        +1
                        Quote: saigon
                        but the interpretation of the eastern khan in connection with Genghis Khan is a new word in the history of Asia.

                        Do you think I came up with this myself? Well, offer an alternative translation, or rather true in your opinion.
                2. Hantengri
                  Hantengri 5 March 2018 21: 28
                  +8
                  Quotation: blooded man
                  What is the essence of the issue?
                  Dumb, sir?
                  Quotation: blooded man
                  The literal translation is the eastern khan.
                  "Literal translation" from what language?
                  Quotation: blooded man
                  Whose word is Genghis Khan?

                  Here you are now and tell us! laughing After all, you know his "literal translation" - "eastern khan" => you know from what language you translated this word! ... lol Is it logical
                  1. Weyland
                    Weyland 7 March 2018 20: 53
                    +2
                    Quote: HanTengri
                    "Literal translation" from what language?

                    some of the Turkic. In Kazakh, the east is “shygys” (but there is no “n” there!)
              2. Rey_ka
                Rey_ka 6 March 2018 11: 11
                0
                apparently from the Kemerian
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator 6 March 2018 19: 31
                  +1
                  Quote: Rey_ka
                  apparently from the Kemerian

                  From Turkic too, for example from Kazakh.
      4. Valery Saitov
        Valery Saitov 23 March 2018 09: 30
        +2
        The term "Tatar-Mongols" is not in the Russian chronicles, no V.N. Tatishcheva, nor N.M. Karamzin ... The term “Tatar-Mongols” itself is neither a self-name nor an ethnonym for the peoples of Mongolia (Khalkha, Oirats). This is an artificial, cabinet term, first introduced by P. Naumov in 1823 ...

        K. G. Scriabin, Academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences:
        “We did not find noticeable Tatar introductions in the Russian genome, which refutes the theory of the Mongol-Tatar yoke. There are no differences between the genomes of Russians and Ukrainians. With the Poles, we have very small differences. ”

        Yu. D. Petukhov, historian, writer:
        “It should be immediately noted that under the pseudo-ethnonym“ Mongols ”we should by no means understand the real Mongoloids living on the lands of present Mongolia. The self-name, the true ethnonym of the aborigines of present Mongolia is halhu. They never called themselves Mongols. And they never reached the Caucasus, the Northern Black Sea Coast, or Russia. Khalkhu - anthropological Mongoloids, the poorest nomadic "community", consisting of many disparate genera. Primitive shepherds, who were at an extremely low primitive communal level of development, under no circumstances could create even the simplest pre-state community, not to mention the kingdom and especially the empire ... The level of development of the Khalkha of the XNUMXth – XNUMXth centuries was equal to the level of development of the natives of Australia and the tribes of the basin Amazons. Their consolidation and the creation by them of even the most primitive military unit of twenty to thirty warriors is utter absurdity. The myth of the "Mongols in Russia" is the most grandiose and monstrous provocation of the Vatican and the West as a whole against Russia! Anthropological studies of burial grounds of the XNUMXth – XNUMXth centuries show the absolute absence of a Mongoloid element in Russia. This is a fact that cannot be challenged. There was no Mongoloid invasion of Russia. It just wasn’t. Neither in Kiev lands, nor in Vladimir-Suzdal, nor in Ryazan of that era, Mongoloid skulls were found. There were no signs of Mongoloidism in the local population. All serious archaeologists who deal with this problem know this. If there were those innumerable “tumens” that tales tell us about and are shown in films, then the “anthropological Mongoloid material” in Russian soil would certainly remain. And the Mongoloid signs in the local population would also remain, because the Mongoloid dominant, overwhelming: it would be enough for hundreds of Mongols to overpower hundreds (even not thousands) of women to Russian burial grounds for tens of generations
    2. Cxnumx
      Cxnumx 5 March 2018 07: 17
      +3
      Quote: Korsar4
      The two parts are little connected. So who are Batu and Burundi?

      as I understand it, these are Scythians, which, according to the author of the Caucasoid
      Russian-Russians are Caucasians, like Bulgars-Volgars (future Kazan Tatars), Polovtsy, Pechenegs, and before them Sarmatians and Scythians. Hordes are also Caucasian, representatives of the white race

      As usual, not a single source, except for the signature on the card, is indicated by Alexander Samsonov.
      by the same Scythians, for example A.G. Kozintsev, comes to a slightly different conclusion: https://ultima-cruzado.livejournal.com/47878.html
      or for example, here is the point of view of Dmitry Kirichenko (different): https://www.tuvaonline.ru/2014/01/23/skify-tuvy-a
      ziaty-ili-evropeycy.html
      (the site transfers splits links on lines, copy completely)
    3. Artek
      Artek 5 March 2018 07: 57
      +6
      you can write a hundred articles per year by Alexander Samsonov, but you are not able to understand the essence of the question and therefore will mislead people forever. Meanwhile, the answer to the question WHO SUCH MONGOLS has already been found and lies in the plane, first of all, of linguistics.
      in the drawing book of Siberia Remezov we see the names of localities with characteristic names
      -MUNGALS- WHITE
      -MUNGALS-YELLOW
      -MUNGALS-BLACK


      here are the lands of the Far East. On these lands we see
      Kingdom of Gilat
      - Brothers non-regular / non-lopsided horse and deer

      so
      -Mongols is the moon of GALA, i.e. Gala
      Here is such an answer, but Gali is Kolyan / Sokolyan / Russian / Goth
      1. Artek
        Artek 5 March 2018 10: 07
        +1
        yeah, what should such a phenomenon be called when they speak not of fact, but of what they can talk about? Narrow-sightedness. laughing
        1. Artek
          Artek 5 March 2018 16: 48
          0
          fellow, what is it? Wild of the Wild Kipling Forest? In general, the Russians do not say that.
    4. andrew42
      andrew42 5 March 2018 09: 25
      +2
      Burundi? - Yes, the kid in childhood with his front teeth was funny so pine nuts pounded, that's what they nicknamed. Then it stuck :))
      1. Weyland
        Weyland 7 March 2018 20: 54
        0
        Quote: andrew42
        Pine nuts

        this is a little different name! A noble Mongol named Chipmunk really marked in the history of that time!
    5. Vend
      Vend 5 March 2018 10: 24
      +10
      Quote: Korsar4
      The two parts are little connected. So who are Batu and Burundi?

      Under the guise of pages of tragedy for Russia, stories continue to push nonsense. Not only the Mongols came to Russia, everything began from the Mongols, a horde from motley peoples came to Russia. This is evidenced by the diverse civilian contingent of the Golden Horde.
      1. co-creator
        co-creator 5 March 2018 14: 22
        +8
        Quote: Wend
        Not only the Mongols came to Russia, everything began from the Mongols, a horde from motley peoples came to Russia. This is evidenced by the diverse civilian contingent of the Golden Horde.

        This is not confirmed by anything. Neither architecture. neither language nor genetics in the end. All that remains is the annals which, in essence, are not state documents.
        1. reservist
          reservist 5 March 2018 14: 45
          +1
          the absence of stone building in Russia during the yoke do not take into account?
          1. co-creator
            co-creator 5 March 2018 15: 20
            +4
            Quote: reservist
            the absence of stone building in Russia during the yoke do not take into account?

            When did the IGO fall? Google, at the end of the IGO is full of stone building. During feudal wars, what kind of construction can there be, there the princes cut and robbed each other.
            And of course, if Russia was conquered, then architecture should remain from the conquerors. She is not.
            1. reservist
              reservist 5 March 2018 15: 31
              +2
              Quotation: blooded man
              at the end of the IGO is full of stone building

              Can you give specific examples?

              During feudal wars, what kind of construction can there be?

              before the Horde invasion, didn’t the princedom fight among themselves?
              but nevertheless they built ...
              1. marline
                marline 5 March 2018 16: 19
                0
                Quote: reservist
                but nevertheless they built ...

                The Decline of Architecture - Early 13th Century It was then that the path from the Varangians to the Greeks died down.
                But the number of temples grew throughout the yoke period.
                In fact, if it is the Tatar-Mongols who are to blame for the drop in crafts, then I would like to ask why there was no stone construction in Smolensk, Novgorod, the same Galich?
                1. reservist
                  reservist 5 March 2018 16: 27
                  0
                  if you paid tribute, then what kind of shisha to build on ...
                  What stone temples were built in Russia during the time of the Horde yoke?
                  1. marline
                    marline 5 March 2018 16: 36
                    +3
                    Quote: reservist
                    if you paid tribute, then what kind of shisha to build on ...

                    Somehow they forgot to tell Peter I about this)))
                    Quote: reservist
                    What stone temples were built in Russia during the time of the Horde yoke?

                    Somehow you ask a question in Hebrew.
                    I didn’t say that stone temples were built during the time of the yoke, but if you like: the Cathedral of the Transfiguration of the Savior on Bor - was built by Ivan Kalita from stone; Assumption Cathedral (built in 1326).
                    Now it's your turn, what stone temples were built in Russia from 1200 to 1237?
                    1. reservist
                      reservist 5 March 2018 17: 46
                      0
                      Quote: merlin
                      Somehow they forgot to tell Peter I about this)))

                      at the beginning of the reign of Peter, was not Azov taken and stopped paying tribute to the Crimean Khanate?

                      Somehow you ask a question in Hebrew.

                      they probably heard a joke: "I’m explaining it for the seventh time, I already understood it myself ..."
                      it was an attempt to bring you to an independent conclusion about the reasons for the decline of stone architecture in Russia in the 13-15 centuries ...

                      What stone churches were built in Russia from 1200 to 1237?

                      not a great connoisseur of the architecture of ancient Russia, but here is what googled:
                      1200g. Assumption Princess Monastery (Vladimir)
                      1204 g. Assumption Cathedral (Rostov)
                      1207 g. Church of Paraskeva-Friday on the Bargain (Novgorod)
                      1222g. Theotokos-Nativity Cathedral (Suzdal)

                      And why exactly this period of 37 years, and not before and after the invasion?
                      1. marline
                        marline 6 March 2018 09: 04
                        0
                        Quote: reservist
                        Quote: merlin
                        Somehow they forgot to tell Peter I about this)))

                        at the beginning of the reign of Peter, was not Azov taken and stopped paying tribute to the Crimean Khanate?

                        That's bad luck - the Taganrog was demolished in 1711, and Catherine II also paid tribute.
                        Quote: reservist
                        Somehow you ask a question in Hebrew.

                        they probably heard a joke: "I’m explaining it for the seventh time, I already understood it myself ..."
                        it was an attempt to bring you to an independent conclusion about the reasons for the decline of stone architecture in Russia in the 13-15 centuries ...

                        How kind of you.
                        Quote: reservist
                        What stone churches were built in Russia from 1200 to 1237?

                        not a great connoisseur of the architecture of ancient Russia, but here is what googled:
                        1200g. Assumption Princess Monastery (Vladimir)
                        1204 g. Assumption Cathedral (Rostov)
                        1207 g. Church of Paraskeva-Friday on the Bargain (Novgorod)
                        1222g. Theotokos-Nativity Cathedral (Suzdal)

                        Some of these temples were rebuilt. In general, the number of stone construction has declined since the beginning of the 13th century.
                        Quote: reservist
                        And why exactly this period of 37 years, and not before and after the invasion?

                        Indeed, what happened at the beginning of the 13th century?
                    2. reservist
                      reservist 6 March 2018 20: 39
                      0
                      Quote: merlin
                      Now it's your turn, what stone temples were built in Russia from 1200 to 1237?

                      after all, why exactly the 1200th and 1237th years?

                      in 1204, the crusaders took Constantinople
                      in the 1240th invasion of Batu
                      in 1261, the Byzantine Empire was restored by the Paleologist
                      1. marline
                        marline 7 March 2018 08: 55
                        0
                        Quote: reservist
                        in 1204, the crusaders took Constantinople

                        And finally the trade route "from the Vikings to the Greeks" was bent. It was necessary to switch to the route "from the Varangians to the Arabs", but the Kipchaks and Bulgars prevented this from failing, but there was no political will to deal with this in fragmented feudal Russia.
                        This reason looks much more real, because the decline occurred throughout Russia, including land to which the Mongols did not reach.
                        Quote: reservist
                        in the 1240th invasion of Batu

                        In 1237.
              2. co-creator
                co-creator 5 March 2018 16: 28
                +1
                Quote: reservist
                Can you give specific examples?

                For example.
                http://www.myshared.ru/slide/160299
                A large number of what was then built was simply rebuilt and demolished in the 16-19 centuries.

                Quote: reservist
                before the Horde invasion, didn’t the princedom fight among themselves?
                but nevertheless they built ...

                Built when Russia was more or less united. The feudal war fell just in time for the period before the Igom and ended in the exaltation of the Principality of Moscow.
                1. reservist
                  reservist 5 March 2018 17: 20
                  +1
                  From the presentation:
                  1292 Church of St. Nicholas on Lipna (Novgorod Republic)
                  1374 Church of the Transfiguration of the Savior on Ilyin Street (Novgorod Republic)
                  1380g. Spassky Cathedral of the Andronikov Monastery (Moscow Principality)
                  1405g. Nativity of the Theotokos Cathedral of the Savvino-Storozhevsky Monastery (Moscow Principality)
                  1422g. Holy Trinity Cathedral of the Trinity Lavra of St. Sergius (Moscow Principality)

                  The Horde did not ruin Novgorod, and Moscow cathedrals were built after Ivan Kalita began to collect tribute without the Basques ...

                  Can we look at the stone construction in the same Principality of Kiev before it enters the Grand Duchy of Lithuania?
                  1. co-creator
                    co-creator 5 March 2018 17: 37
                    +2
                    Quote: reservist
                    The Horde did not ruin Novgorod, and Moscow cathedrals were built after Ivan Kalita began to collect tribute without the Basques ...

                    That is, you acknowledge. what was the stone building during the ISE?
                    What does the Basques have to do with it? That Kalita stopped paying tribute or she became less?
                    Quote: reservist
                    Can we look at the stone construction in the same Principality of Kiev before it enters the Grand Duchy of Lithuania?

                    How many?
                    1. reservist
                      reservist 5 March 2018 18: 57
                      +1
                      Compared to the pre-Horde period, stone was built on a meager scale and in the ruined Novgorod and Moscow after Moscow princes began to collect tribute for the Horde instead of the Khan Baskaks.

                      Baskaki - Horde analogue of the current tax
                      Moscow princes "sucking" to the collection of the Horde tribute were able to keep the "commission", which eventually the Moscow principality rose ...

                      in 1240, Kiev was destroyed by Batu and its decline began, what kind of new stone construction there is, the throne of the metropolitan in general in 1299 moved from Kiev to Kiev ...
                      1. co-creator
                        co-creator 6 March 2018 00: 14
                        +2
                        Quote: reservist
                        Compared to the pre-Horde period, stone was built on a meager scale and in the ruined Novgorod and Moscow after Moscow princes began to collect tribute for the Horde instead of the Khan Baskaks.

                        Normally built in the 15th century. Where trade routes went there and built.
                        Quote: reservist
                        Baskaki - Horde analogue of the current tax

                        So what? IGO 300 years, the Baskans 60 years and then they were eliminated as unprofitable.
                        Quote: reservist
                        Moscow princes "sucking" to the collection of the Horde tribute were able to keep the "commission", which eventually the Moscow principality rose ...

                        This is nonsense. Princes always collected taxes for themselves whether the Basques were or not. The tax was the same, tithing, which is up to the Mongols, that at the Mongols. Moscow rose to the west on trade in oriental goods. Simply put, Moscow received a label saddled the Volga Trade Route.
                        Quote: reservist
                        in 1240, Kiev was destroyed by Batu and its decline began, what kind of new stone construction there is, the throne of the metropolitan in general in 1299 moved from Kiev to Kiev ...

                        Just the way from the Varangians to the Greeks ceased to exist. What shisha to build temples?
        2. Vend
          Vend 5 March 2018 14: 50
          +1
          Quotation: blooded man
          Quote: Wend
          Not only the Mongols came to Russia, everything began from the Mongols, a horde from motley peoples came to Russia. This is evidenced by the diverse civilian contingent of the Golden Horde.

          This is not confirmed by anything. Neither architecture. neither language nor genetics in the end. All that remains is the annals which, in essence, are not state documents.

          Well, how, it is even confirmed. Kazan Khanate, Siberian Khanate of the Golden Horde, the grave of Tamerlane. In Samarkand. In the Golden Horde period (second half of the 13th – 15th centuries A.D.), burial grounds appear in the southern part of the Stavropol Territory, which differ sharply in appearance from burial grounds of previous eras. They represent cemeteries from many dozens of small barrows close to each other.
          Another character burial ground was opened near the village of Novo-Kuvinsky, on the left bank of the river. Greater Zelenchuk. On the surface of the grave there is nothing marked.
          An interesting find was made in 1960 on the right bank of the Kuban River near the head structure of the Kuban-Kalausky Canal, somewhat south of the village of Ust-Dzhegutinsky. A pit was dug here, in which they took land for a dam. At the same time, some structure was destroyed. A cornice in the form of a multifaceted pillar of calcareous sandstone covered with Arabic scripts has been preserved from it. By the nature of the font, the letters belong to the XIV century. n e.
          Read DA Avdusina
          1. co-creator
            co-creator 5 March 2018 15: 22
            +1
            Quote: Wend
            Well, how, it is even confirmed. Kazan Khanate, Siberian Khanate of the Golden Horde, the grave of Tamerlane. In Samarkand.

            Excuse me, what side does Samarkand and the Kazan Khanate have for Russia? Kazan was conquered only under Ivan the Terrible, and Samarkand in the middle of the 19th century.
            Quote: Wend
            An interesting find was made in 1960 on the right bank of the Kuban River near the head structure of the Kuban-Kalausky Canal, somewhat south of the village of Ust-Dzhegutinsky. A pit was dug here, in which they took land for a dam. At the same time, some structure was destroyed. A cornice in the form of a multifaceted pillar of calcareous sandstone covered with Arabic scripts has been preserved from it. By the nature of the font, the letters belong to the XIV century. n e.

            What does Russia have to do with it?
            1. Tula gingerbread
              Tula gingerbread 5 March 2018 16: 43
              +2
              And I don’t have anything to do with it. lol
            2. andrew42
              andrew42 23 March 2018 17: 29
              0
              Your Honor, Mrs. Rhetoric .. :) Samarkand is clearly not to do with it. But Kama Bulgaria, where Kazan later rose, it’s just to Russia. A neighbor of many centuries, they both traded and hiked each other. Kama Bulgaria is the eastern fragment of the ancient power of Attila, with the Turkic military elite, and Islam borrowed from the Arabs. Russia is the northern component of the same ancient power, the Slavic-Finnish, Christianized. (I put the “Finnish” in quotation marks, because I don’t think of the “Finns” as Meshcher, Mordovians and Komi as attributes of culture, I suppose that these high-ranking scholars selectively pray for the designed “Finno-Ugrians”).
              1. co-creator
                co-creator 23 March 2018 20: 02
                +1
                Quote: andrew42
                But Kama Bulgaria, where Kazan later rose, it’s just to Russia. A neighbor of many centuries, they both traded and hiked each other. Kama Bulgaria is the eastern fragment of the ancient power of Attila, with the Turkic military elite, and Islam borrowed from the Arabs. Russia is the northern component of the same ancient power, the Slavic-Finnish, Christianized.

                Well..? Let me remind you of the conversation about Russia. So the conquest of Russia, and especially IGO by the Mongols or just a horde from different Turkic tribes -
                >>>> nothing has been confirmed. Not architecture. neither language nor genetics after all. Only the chronicles remain, which in their essence are not state documents >>>

                Actually, the influence of Asia (Turks) and Islam stopped in Bulgaria, and then between the Russians and the Turks there was a "sanitary zone" of warlike pagans of Cheremis, Mordovians.
          2. Alexey-74
            Alexey-74 5 March 2018 16: 18
            +2
            I will correct you: the future Samarkand and Tamerlan (Timur) were not part of the Horde, but were competitors (Iron Timur-Leng, of course, later appeared on the historical stage). The burial grounds in the Stavropol Territory also cannot be attributed to any of the nationalities yet, because and before the Horde came the Silk Road passed here (the much earlier Scythians were settled)
        3. andrew42
          andrew42 5 March 2018 14: 50
          +1
          Chronicles (left to us) were written by Christian monks. Therefore, there are 2 other topics stuck out - glories to the princes, who stuck more churches (that were cut with each other, this is a trifle), and moaning about the churches destroyed by the "filthy" The most interesting thing is that many chroniclers didn’t inflate about the Kiev pogrom of 1169 , noted simply “the church’s devastation,” they removed the pier, the bad Smolensk and Suzdal people tore off the image. Somehow weakly so, - they were sobering and stopped. Either they burned little, or they burned their "kyans" at the same time as the finders.
          1. co-creator
            co-creator 5 March 2018 15: 26
            +1
            Quote: andrew42
            Therefore, there are 2 other topics stuck out - glories to the princes, who stuck more churches (that were cut with each other, this is a trifle), and moaning about the churches destroyed by "filthy"

            Of course. It must be borne in mind that most Aboriginal people were Christians only in name and prayed to their gods. The church fought to expand its parishioners. If the prince supported them, then he is a saint and well done. If not. then he and Herod.
        4. antivirus
          antivirus 5 March 2018 17: 29
          0
          the reason for the campaign and enslavement-- THE ALKALI WAY- AND CUSTOMS DUTIES-
          -CHINA AND SR-ASIAN MERCHANTS HANDED A MILITARY (FROM THE WORLD BY A THREAD) UNDER THE CHIEF OF THE CONSIDERS OF SR ASIA-CHINGHIS KHAN (BATYA) -To reduce the cost of transit to Europe.
          The greed of the Rus princes ruined them.
          and the weakness of fragmented Russia.
          1. co-creator
            co-creator 5 March 2018 18: 30
            +2
            Quote: antivirus
            the reason for the campaign and enslavement-- THE ALKALI WAY- AND CUSTOMS DUTIES-

            You are going the right way, only now you need to prove enslavement. Even modern historians write on maps - Russia is a dependent territory.
            Quote: antivirus
            CHINESE AND SR-ASIAN MERCHANTS HIRED A MILITARY (FROM THE WORLD BY A THREAD) UNDER THE CHIEF OF THE CONSIDERS OF ASIA-CHINGHIS KHAN (BATYA) -To reduce the cost of transit to Europe.

            So, what is next? As all trade went through Russia, it continued to go.
            Quote: antivirus
            The greed of the Rus princes ruined them.
            and the weakness of fragmented Russia

            During IGO, a single Russian state appeared with the capital in Moscow.
            1. antivirus
              antivirus 5 March 2018 21: 24
              0
              I modestly kept silent about the role of Europe and its Western parts.
              how much did they need from the transit of the Silk Road?
              the next crusade had smashed Constantinople to shreds!
              Vatican, Genoa, Venice, Hansa, other major players.
              How was transit through Byzantium?
              IT IS NECESSARY TO SEE ALL THE COMPLEX !!!
              perhaps, the remaining living russians decided so, and their bright representative Alexander Nevsky.
              mentioned many times - Al Nevsky accepted the "civilizational choice", and that was the choice between one and other duties and different centers of power - Europe and the united Asia. pragmatist
              Now also ---- any move leads to a turn to one of the forces- China or Europe for 50 -100 years of cooperation (?)
              1. co-creator
                co-creator 6 March 2018 00: 22
                +1
                Quote: antivirus
                how much did they need from the transit of the Silk Road?

                Well, it was the West that consumed oriental goods, and Russia earned a lot on this.
                Quote: antivirus
                mentioned many times - Al Nevsky accepted the "civilizational choice", and that was the choice between one and other duties and different centers of power - Europe and the united Asia. pragmatist

                Nevsky did not accept any choice, this is church nonsense. Pskov and Novgorod, these were large shopping centers with oriental goods and he defended them. The Moscow prince, after a long struggle, was able to get a shortcut to trade with the Horde and all the gears began to spin.
      2. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 5 March 2018 22: 44
        +2
        Vend "Under the guise of pages of history tragic for Russia, they continue to push nonsense."
        Duc again to see fresh grass from the Chuy valley drove up. Fresh supplies fresh thoughts.
    6. Valery Saitov
      Valery Saitov 23 March 2018 09: 32
      +2
      The term "Tatar-Mongols" is not in the Russian chronicles, no V.N. Tatishcheva, nor N.M. Karamzin ... The term “Tatar-Mongols” itself is neither a self-name nor an ethnonym for the peoples of Mongolia (Khalkha, Oirats). This is an artificial, cabinet term, first introduced by P. Naumov in 1823 ...
      K. G. Scriabin, Academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences:
      “We did not find noticeable Tatar introductions in the Russian genome, which refutes the theory of the Mongol-Tatar yoke. There are no differences between the genomes of Russians and Ukrainians. With the Poles, we have very small differences. ”
    7. Separ
      Separ 25 March 2018 11: 33
      0
      "Burundai" - there is such a settlement in the Alma-Ata region near Alma-Ata (there was a small airport MVL
    8. The comment was deleted.
    9. MaksoMelan
      MaksoMelan 29 March 2018 10: 57
      0
      These Mongols from all their territory gathered nations, drafting into their army, but they commanded. It’s just like now any Chechen, Tatar, for the Americans drill the same Russian as the meadow and the Drevlyans. 12 year olds were called upon, and until they reach the duty station they will just enter into force and age. Here is a movie with Klim Zhukov about Tataromongol.
      1. co-creator
        co-creator 29 March 2018 12: 44
        0
        This is nonsense. You want to say. that the Chechens will be able to subjugate the Russians who are 12 times more and will command them? That’s how it turns out according to Klim. Like a small handful of wild nomads was able to subjugate more numerous and more advanced peoples and manage them without even having ... their own written language.
        1. MaksoMelan
          MaksoMelan 29 March 2018 18: 47
          0
          My grandmother from the clan of the Linguistic Simbirsk branch is the story of the appearance of the surname: Descendants of Genghis Khan
          The Tatar prince Yenguley-Murza, nicknamed the Tongue, is considered to be the ancestor of the Yazykovs. In 1360, together with his son Sungur, he entered the service of the Grand Duke Vladimir and Moscow, Dmitry Ivanovich, the future Don. According to family tradition, which was transmitted over several centuries, Yengulei-murza was a direct descendant of the formidable Genghis Khan.
          In Russia, the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of the Tatar Murza adopted Orthodoxy and gradually nothing oriental either in their names or appearance remained. The most famous of this kind was the poet of the "Golden Age" Nikolai Yazykov, but he belonged to the Simbirsk branch of his ramified family name and had nothing to do with the Vladimir limits. "
          About the written language among us, it only just appeared and was used everywhere thanks to the birch bark. At that time, the Tatar Mongols were multinational, since they were recruited from their captured territories into wars, by the way, we paid a lot of tribute. And you need to distinguish between tactics for destruction and European tactics on the principle of who will cover. The Mughals have enough fields for grazing. The Poles drove about these moguls - they were defeated by the Mongols very scary, they reached the Germanic peoples, defeated Georgia, the pope knew about them and sent an ambassador, and you are such a lump and n. Horseradish do not know about them. As if their fastest in the world was "pit" which we later adopted. And then we were also wild. There were no smells of any institutes or academies, foreign doctors, builders, too, their bvli were killed with the arrival of the Tatars, and this is degenerated in architecture before the Mughal and after the Mongol temple.
          1. co-creator
            co-creator 30 March 2018 00: 37
            0
            Quote: MaksoMelan
            The Tatar prince Yenguley-Murza, nicknamed the Tongue, is considered to be the ancestor of the Yazykovs. In 1360, together with his son Sungur, he entered the service of the Grand Duke Vladimir and Moscow, Dmitry Ivanovich, the future Don. According to family tradition, which was transmitted over several centuries, Yengulei-murza was a direct descendant of the formidable Genghis Khan.

            This is what you wrote, expand your thought.
            Quote: MaksoMelan
            About the written language among us, it only just appeared and was used everywhere thanks to the birch bark.

            Uh ... the fact that we had written language I know.
            Quote: MaksoMelan
            At that time, the Tatar Mongols were multinational, since they were recruited from their captured territories into wars, by the way, we all paid a tribute

            You understand that it is simply impossible to control a multinational army, and even more so nomads. If there is no written language, then how to manage? If you invite others to help in managing others, then you do not share power with them otherwise. Stupidly, for example, how will the Mongol command the Kipchaks if they have a different language?
            Quote: MaksoMelan
            And you need to distinguish between tactics for destruction and European tactics on the principle of who will cover.

            Well, whom did the Mongols destroy? What kind of people?
            Quote: MaksoMelan
            The Mughals have enough fields for grazing.

            Yeah, on paper you can. In reality, in winter, a horse at the pasture will die after a short transition, and it’s not capable of fighting at all.

            Quote: MaksoMelan
            And then we were wild too

            you may have been wild, since your ancestors lived as it turned out in the steppe.
            Quote: MaksoMelan
            There were no smells of any institutes or academies, foreign doctors, builders, too, their bvli were killed with the arrival of the Tatars, and this is degenerated in architecture before the Mughal and after the Mongol temple.

            So didn’t it smell or were there temples, cities and so on before the Mongols? You already decide.
        2. MaksoMelan
          MaksoMelan 29 March 2018 18: 52
          0
          I propose to listen to all your answers but by type
          could or could not. Velikorus Hyperborean where are your Aryan starships and technology? Polyperae hypeiborea prosrali?
          1. co-creator
            co-creator 30 March 2018 00: 45
            0
            Quote: MaksoMelan
            I propose to listen to all your answers but by type

            I listened. I answer. Present at least 5 tags for reigning from the Mongols and I will immediately believe this pseudo-history. In the meantime, he is the same talker as this cross.
            1. MaksoMelan
              MaksoMelan 30 March 2018 10: 21
              0
              Look for it! Read it! Study!
              1. co-creator
                co-creator 30 March 2018 18: 14
                0
                Quote: MaksoMelan
                Look for it! Read it! Study!

                I’m looking for, studying, not finding. You apparently do not know who such metropolitans once give a link to this book. The funny thing is that all your like-minded people do this, turn on du..ra..ka that type of metropolitan and prince is the same thing, the label on the preference of the church and the label on reign are the same laughing Well, let's try and find shortcuts from the khans where Russian princes give reign to this or that principality.
  2. Adjutant
    Adjutant 5 March 2018 07: 08
    +10
    That being said
    Again
    Twenty five
    In the center of Russia are found the burials and dwellings of the Mongols dated that era, the characteristic arrowheads and mass graves of the Russians.
    But the Mongols were not there. If it’s so fashionable to consider God with them, with the Mongols)
    1. co-creator
      co-creator 5 March 2018 14: 25
      +6
      Quote: Adjutant
      That being said
      Again
      Twenty five
      In the center of Russia are found the burials and dwellings of the Mongols dated that era, the characteristic arrowheads and mass graves of the Russians.
      But the Mongols were not there. If it’s so fashionable to consider God with them, with the Mongols)

      Well, there are Russian mass graves, but no Mongols. What were cyborgs?
      In addition to the serpent settlement there are no large finds. What Mongolian settlements you write about is generally incomprehensible.
      1. Adjutant
        Adjutant 5 March 2018 16: 14
        +2
        This is described in more detail in the comments to the article.
        Mongol-Tatar yoke on the lands of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.
        I quote: "In 2005, in Vladimir, near Gagarin St., 2, the above-mentioned group of Vladimir archaeologists discovered a burnt Tatar manor, indicating the presence of a rich Tatar family (apparently, the governor). The manor was built in the most" prestigious " time in the Vladimir region (the largest number of treasures was found in this area). According to archaeologists, this is “Vladimir ruble of the XIV century.” By the nature of the finds, it can be stated with great certainty that the Horde Tatar lived in the estate, since the objects found were never used by Russians and Russians did not sell them.
        Items found include:
        1) a fragment of a glass goblet made in Syria (Aleppo, XIII-XIV century) in the style of "Mamluk"
        2) a fragment of a flask with an embossed ornament in the shape of a "kalype" made in Khorezm (XIV century), widespread in Central Asia and the countries of the East
        3) Jun-yao ceramic bowl or dish, China XII-XIII (the first finds of such dishes in Eastern Europe)
        4) faience (kashin ceramics with opaque watering) of the Minai type (Iran, XIII-XIV century) with Arabic script and semi-faience (kashin ceramics with transparent watering), production - Middle East (XIII-XIV century), chandelier semi-faience with painting Kashin (XIII-XIV century).
        Kashin ceramics is a unique "marker" of the Horde (Tatar-Mongol), since it always accompanies them (and only their) presence. This type of ceramics was very much appreciated during the study period in the Horde. "
        1. co-creator
          co-creator 5 March 2018 16: 37
          +7
          The burned-out Tatar manor is a Mongolian settlement? After that, you call Samsonov a storyteller.
          1. andrew42
            andrew42 23 March 2018 17: 37
            0
            I support. Found artifacts testify only to the wealth and nobility of their owner. All these "wonders" could very well belong to the condo Zalesky boyar himself. Could belong to an eminent guest, that is, a merchant. There is no reason to argue that they were owned exclusively by the "greedy Monglo-Tatar Baskak." And probably among the same Horde collectors, there were "officials" of Russian origin.
            1. co-creator
              co-creator 23 March 2018 20: 17
              +1
              Quote: andrew42
              I support. Found artifacts testify only to the wealth and nobility of their owner. All these "wonders" could very well belong to the condo Zalesky boyar himself. Could belong to an eminent guest, that is, a merchant

              The fact that Russia traded with the east is no secret to anyone, and it is natural that Turkic merchants lived in Russian cities. But historians need to justify their version, and when they find a pot, they talk about a whole settlement or a noble Baskak, governor laughing In all other versions, they are simply swept away immediately.
              Quote: andrew42
              There is no reason to argue that they were owned exclusively by the "greedy Monglo-Tatar Baskak." And probably among the same Horde collectors, there were "officials" of Russian origin.

              There is not a single document where it was alleged that the Basques were exclusively Türks. In general, the word TATAROVA at that time was not a fact that it was a Turk. For example, the word Tatar became the name of the people only in the 21st century, and Tatar could have a different meaning at that time.
              The fact that among the Horde collectors
              there were Rusichs, Rusichs, there was no doubt about this, otherwise the Baskaks would have been permanently exterminated as a Busurman.
        2. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 5 March 2018 22: 46
          +1
          Adjutant "Kashin ceramics is a unique" marker "of the Horde (Tatar-Mongol), since it always accompanies their (and only their) presence."
          Zombies are all one. They won’t understand anything.)))
          1. co-creator
            co-creator 6 March 2018 00: 23
            +4
            Quote: Nagaibak
            Zombies are all one. They won’t understand anything.)))

            Horde, in my pocket $ 100 I probably won the United States))
            1. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak 6 March 2018 21: 15
              0
              fellow "Nagaybak] Zombaks are all one. They won’t understand anything.)))
              Horde, in my pocket $ 100 I probably won the United States)) "
              Hammer them yourself ...
              1. co-creator
                co-creator 7 March 2018 00: 05
                0
                Do not envy, beggar .. ford.
                1. Nagaibak
                  Nagaibak 7 March 2018 20: 53
                  0
                  conservative "Do not envy, beggar .. ford."
                  Do not hurt the hole with your dollar. Deer)))
                  1. co-creator
                    co-creator 7 March 2018 22: 33
                    0
                    Quote: Nagaibak
                    Do not hurt the hole with your dollar. Deer)))

                    Throw a couple of Baku? laughing
  3. Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 5 March 2018 07: 10
    +4
    What about the Huns? They have not reached right up to modern France? Or were they also not Mongols, since their "dominant features" are not observed in Europe?
  4. Vard
    Vard 5 March 2018 07: 11
    +2
    It seems that the main thing is the historical stability of the nation ... this is what I mean, where are the Mongols now ... and the Tatars are the same ...
  5. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 5 March 2018 07: 11
    +13
    In the silence of the classrooms, without widespread publicity so as not to run into the wrath of academics from history, adequate and familiar with the essence of the issue historians argue that based on studies of archaeological burials (with subsequent restoration of persons based on available data) and knowledge in genetics, Genghis Khan was explicit .... Caucasoid. The Mongol already makes it a clear desire of the officialdom to bring reality to fiction in order to preserve the beautiful tale of the Mongol-Tatar invasion, imposed by the Muellers, the Slotsers, and other Western evil spirits.
    Today’s “advocates” of the truth continue to lay down one lie in layers on already created ones, painting vivid pictures of the TENT requirements ( fool !) among enslaved peoples laughing
    Well done Samsonov! Plus for trying to destroy consciousness good
    PS With different Great Hyperboreans and Scythians there he went too far of course, but on the whole wink
    It is time for a long time to reconsider the assertions of the inveterate from the point of view of common sense of the inveterate Mongolo-Tatarophiles with their "wanted, but not destroyed, not exterminated, not copulated," etc. bully
    Personally, my opinion hi
    1. Mikado
      Mikado 5 March 2018 11: 42
      +4
      imposed by the Mullers, Schloetzers

      I read: imposed by the Mullers and Stirlitz wink drinks
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 5 March 2018 22: 35
        +3
        Quote: Mikado
        I read: imposed by the Mullers and Stirlitz

        What for! laughing good drinks
    2. Just a man
      Just a man 5 March 2018 20: 03
      +5
      You are absolutely objective in thoughts and right in a critical awareness of reality. After 10 years in 90 years, they turned over our entire history, when people who knew real life were still alive, I refuse to believe speculation. We are told about the 300 year old yoke. Arises
      natural question - Where are millions of Mongol-like people in central Russia, where are the herds of unpretentious Mongolian horses (which plow meter-long snowdrifts of the Russian plain for 3 months of winter without food and rest), where are the remnants of the settlements of these Mongols, and the Russian language has been a yoke for 300 years would be the second state after the Mongol. And these questions can be listed long and to the point.
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 5 March 2018 20: 43
        +8
        Quote: Just a human
        Where millions of Mongol-like people in central Russia, where herds of unpretentious Mongolian horses

        By the way, at one of the forums devoted to this topic on the same resource (but I don’t remember the date), in all seriousness, the yoke of research by some historian was cited as proof, which in all seriousness proved that the breed of low-growing hardy Mongolian horses was bred, able to cross the thousands of miles on the pasture !!! laughing Naturally, personally, I don’t consider such a “proof”, much less a modern historian. Then, in all seriousness, the book of another Russian historian was cited as evidence, which in all seriousness proved that the weapons and armor of the Mongols and Russian squads were almost identical, therefore it is impossible to distinguish them from many engravings and icons !! winked
        Quote: Just a human
        Yes, and for 300 years the yoke of the Russian language would be the second state language after the Mongolian.

        And how do you prove that the Mongols SPECIALLY selected only a tenth, so as not to ruin the population, that would be enough for a long time ... Idiocy fool It turns out that the Mongol-Tatar yoke was the ONLY conquest on the planet in a thousand years of history, which in its essence was more democratic than modern reality yes - today we pay more taxes laughing At the same time, women were not raped, their faith was not planted, much less mass churches of faith of the conquered peoples were built in large numbers ... Angels are direct, not conquerors wassat
        1. tlauicol
          tlauicol 6 March 2018 04: 59
          +2
          Well, now imagine that you are paying a state tax of 13% as before you paid (and this money goes to the army of the hospital, education is expensive, etc., that is, they remain and work in the state-ve). But in addition, you pay another 10% to Trump Merkel or Suche-Bator - and this money is bye-bye. And will you squeal - they will open the head and burn the city! More democratic?
          1. co-creator
            co-creator 6 March 2018 08: 23
            +2
            Quote: Tlauicol
            And will you squeal - they will open the head and burn the city! More democratic?

            Carefully tried to read what the person wrote?
            1. tlauicol
              tlauicol 6 March 2018 08: 35
              0
              Of course: the main thesis of man - the good Mongols said: pay tithing to uncle and live as you want. About the fact that “you will not pay, we’ll open the head” he did not mention in his democratic vision. As well as about the fact that taxes within the state have not been abolished either
              1. co-creator
                co-creator 6 March 2018 13: 43
                +3
                Quote: Tlauicol
                As well as about the fact that taxes within the state have not been abolished either

                For these taxes, “vassal” rebuilt a unified state which then turned its head against these Mongols. Moreover, for 300 years, the Mongols did not even lift a finger to prevent this. Miracles are wonderful.
                1. tlauicol
                  tlauicol 6 March 2018 14: 14
                  0
                  Well, the descendants of Genghis Khan at that time were engaged in fratricide and shredding uluses - nothing new or surprising for history.
                  They burned the capital of the vassal after 150 years - is this called "they did not lift a finger"?
                  1. co-creator
                    co-creator 6 March 2018 19: 35
                    +3
                    Quote: Tlauicol
                    Well, the descendants of Genghis Khan at that time were engaged in fratricide and shredding uluses - nothing new or surprising for history.

                    What are you talking about people about the empire and vassals here, if there are continuous civil strife in the Horde and there is no time to follow the "vassals"
                    Quote: Tlauicol
                    They burned the capital of the vassal after 150 years - is this called "they did not lift a finger"?

                    The Poles burned Moscow and the French burned. The question is how many years did the Polish and French yoke last repeat
                    I am writing to you what really happened, and you are talking about the burning of Moscow in as many as 150 years.
                    1. tlauicol
                      tlauicol 7 March 2018 05: 52
                      0
                      so you write to me that they didn’t lift a finger for 300 years request comes out, moved?
                      Did I write something about the empire? about the empire, which was divided in 1294? so it's still a long time.
                      Poles and French burned Moscow for debts? concealed tribute to Bonaparte in two years?
                      1. co-creator
                        co-creator 7 March 2018 12: 01
                        0
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        so you write to me that they didn’t move a finger for 300 years, does it move, move it?

                        This is not a stir, but a single raid.
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        Did I write something about the empire? about the empire, which was divided in 1294? so it's still a long time.

                        Well, you support the official version correctly.
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        concealed tribute to Bonaparte in two years?

                        That is exactly what happened. They did not fulfill their obligations and continued to trade with England. Actually, he did this throughout Europe.
  6. svp67
    svp67 5 March 2018 07: 12
    +9
    Apparently, the fact of the poor organization of long-range intelligence played a major role in the defeat of the Russian rati.
    Not visible, but for sure. Which in itself is surprising, since the enemy was above all praise. As a result, the Mongols knew everything where the gathering of troops of the Russian princes took place and how they were located. Which indirectly indicates that the Mongols had their "eyes and ears" in Russian soil.
    Neither in Ryazan, nor in Vladimir-Suzdal, nor in Kiev lands were found skulls of the Mongoloids.
    Lies pure water. And why lie, it’s not clear ...
    "In Kiev and Lyubech, the city was rebuilt over a layer of pogrom and fire: they simply leveled everything that was possible and began to build a city on top.
    What can you do! "Trail of raid, trail of fire" opens a not very pleasant sight. That is, perhaps, Bushkov with his cult of empires, war, physical strength and other vestiges of young adolescents would like to see this spectacle. But it is absolutely unpleasant for me. The layer is filled with charred fragments of logs, the bones of many chopped sabers pierced by spears and arrows of people. The position of the skeletons shows that many tried to get out of the rubble of the still alive and already dead when the burning houses collapsed, burying people under themselves.
    So, some of the dead are tall Caucasians, armed with straight swords, typically Russian shields, in equally typical shells and chain mail. And the other part is a mixture of Caucasians, people with a mild Mongoloid, and even pronounced Mongoloids. And these people are armed with crooked sabers, their shields are small, round, typical of riders, and the shells are typical of Central Asia.
    There is a terrible find in Kiev. Part of the death layer of the city is the potter's semi-dugout, in one half of which was a workshop, in the other, separated by a stove, is the residential part.
    At the entrance to the dugout are two: a middle-aged man with a light Mongoloidity, in a helmet typical of the steppe, with a crooked saber. And tall, without shell, with an ax. On the floor of the workshop is the skeleton of a young woman, in a crucified position; two daggers are driven into the hands of the skeleton, the blades of which extend deep into the earthen floor. And on the stove, in another "room" - the skeletons of children four and five years old.
    If Fomenko, Nosovsky and Bushkov are not able to explain the find, I seem to take it upon myself. The Mongols (those non-existent) broke into the potter’s dwelling, killed the owner. While the fictional Mongols killed their father and raped their mother, the children climbed onto the stove. And when the burning roof of the house collapsed, the Mongols ran out of the house so hastily that they did not have time to rob him, and did not have time to take away his murdered man.
    Do you need to comment? "



    "In 2005, in Vladimir, near Gagarin St., 2, the above-mentioned group of Vladimir archaeologists discovered a burnt Tatar manor, indicating the presence of a rich Tatar family (apparently, the governor). The manor was built in the most prestigious area for that time Vladimir (the largest number of treasures was found in this area). According to archaeologists, this is “Vladimir ruble of the XIV century.” By the nature of the finds, it can be stated with great certainty that the Horde Tatar lived in the estate, since the objects found were never used by Russians and Russians We didn’t trade, items found include:
    1) a fragment of a glass goblet made in Syria (Aleppo, XIII-XIV century) in the style of "Mamluk"
    2) a fragment of a flask with an embossed ornament in the shape of a "kalype" made in Khorezm (XIV century), widespread in Central Asia and the countries of the East
    3) Jun-yao ceramic bowl or dish, China XII-XIII (the first finds of such dishes in Eastern Europe)
    4) faience (kashin ceramics with opaque watering) of the Minai type (Iran, XIII-XIV century) with Arabic script and semi-faience (kashin ceramics with transparent watering), production - Middle East (XIII-XIV century), chandelier semi-faience with painting Kashin (XIII-XIV century).
    Kashin ceramics is a unique "marker" of the Horde (Tatar-Mongol), since it always accompanies them (and only their) presence. This type of ceramics was very appreciated during the study period in the Horde and rich Tatars brought / took it with them throughout the entire length of their migration and resettlement. "
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 5 March 2018 09: 07
      +4
      While the fictional Mongols killed their father and raped their mother, the children climbed onto the stove.


      Are you really stubborn or what? And then, in general, the Mongols? By the time of the campaign against Russia, there were already very few Mongols in the horde. Do you generally understand the difference between ethnic Mongols, who in the 13 century, due to certain circumstances, achieved notable military successes and subjugated the mass of neighbors and the real composition of what is called “Tatar-Mongols” for simplicity?
      1. svp67
        svp67 5 March 2018 09: 11
        +3
        [
        Quote: EvilLion
        Are you really stubborn or what?

        Select expression. I do not like boors and punish as much as I can. And this is not a threat, but a warning. The first and ONLY.
        Quote: EvilLion
        And then, in general, the Mongols?

        Then who?
        1. EvilLion
          EvilLion 5 March 2018 10: 20
          +2
          Who! Some soldiers of unknown ethnicity from the army of Batu. Most likely a European race. What is not clear? Or do you think that it was only the Mongols who practiced "kill all men and rape all women"? This was done in full in the Neolithic.
          1. svp67
            svp67 5 March 2018 11: 18
            +3
            Quote: EvilLion
            Most likely a European race

            Quote: EvilLion
            Or do you think that it was only the Mongols who practiced "kill all men and rape all women"?

            Honestly, this was not characteristic of our ancestors. Since it was tantamount to killing that "chicken that lays golden eggs." All our internal squabbles between the princes and campaigns beyond the borders of Russia were not particularly cruel. We tried to keep the main tributaries, so that there would be someone to take tribute from. The "Mongols" or those whom we consider themselves to be different for them, at the slightest disobedience, they destroyed ALL. In all of our cities that were then dead, the main victims are civilians, who were simply KILLED and driven to some square. They killed obviously cold-bloodedly, most of them by blowing something heavy on the skull, in any case, this is indicated by damage to the skulls.


            Quote: EvilLion
            Some soldiers of unknown ethnicity from the army of Batu

            But in all the annals of the peoples subjected to their expansion, at that time they are called MONGOLS
            1. marline
              marline 5 March 2018 12: 47
              +4
              Quote: svp67
              Honestly, this was not characteristic of our ancestors. Since it was tantamount to killing that "chicken that lays golden eggs." All our internal squabbles between the princes and campaigns beyond the borders of Russia were not particularly cruel.

              Three times HA !!! Ipatiev Chronicle, 1169:
              and for two days they robbed the whole city, Podil and Mountain, and monasteries, and Sofia, and the Virgin of the Tithes, and there was no mercy on anyone and nowhere. Churches burned, Christians were killed, others were knitted, wives were taken prisoner, separated by force from their husbands, babies cried, looking at their mothers. They took a lot of wealth, churches laid bare, tore off the icons, and robes, and bells, took books, all the Smolensk people, Suzdal, Chernihiv, and Olga squad took out. And the filthy lit up the monastery of the Caves of the Holy Virgin, but God prayed the Holy Virgin to protect him from such misfortune. And there was moaning in Kiev, and tuga, and inconsolable sorrow, and unceasing tears. Yet it happened because of our sins.

              You understand that in 1169 there were no Mongols in Russia.
              1. svp67
                svp67 5 March 2018 12: 53
                +4
                Quote: merlin
                others were knitted, wives were taken prisoner, separated by force with their husbands, babies cried, looking at their mothers.

                That’s all said. Yes, someone fell under the hot hand, but it’s not even MOST. I will say more, in many raids, the same Nevsky took the locals to him and resettled there. But the Mongols did not do this, they stupidly destroyed ALL.
                Quote: merlin
                You understand that in 1169 there were no Mongols in Russia.

                And yet even these terrible episodes cannot be compared to what has happened since the winter of 1237 on our land.
                1. marline
                  marline 5 March 2018 13: 11
                  +3
                  Quote: svp67
                  And yet even these terrible episodes cannot be compared to what has happened since the winter of 1237 on our land.

                  It was such a time. Want an example of a relationship to the invasion?
                  Novgorod first annals:
                  In the summer of 6747 [1239]. Marry Prince Oleksandr, son of Yaroslavl in Novgorod, singing a daughter in Polotsk near Bryachslav, and marrying in Toropchi; repair that porridge, and in Novgorod another. That same summer, Prince Alexander and Novgorod took a log of town on Shelon

                  Those. Your beloved Tatar-Mongols burn and rob, and then from all the news - Prince Oleksandr got married - they walked to Toropchi and, after that, to Novgorod.
                  And here also:
                  5 year 6748 (1240). Yaroslav's daughter was born and was named during holy baptism Mary. In the same year the Tatars took Kiev and the church of St. Sophia was looted and all the monasteries. And the icons, and honest crosses, and all church decorations were taken and beaten with a sword all the people from small to large. And this misfortune happened on Nikolin the day before the Lord’s Christmas

                  Lavrentievskaya ... There is already about Kiev ... But the main news is that Yaroslav's daughter Mashenka was born!
                  By the way, in the first Novgorod about Kiev, not a word at all.
                  1. svp67
                    svp67 5 March 2018 13: 25
                    +1
                    Quote: merlin
                    Those. Your favorite Tatar Mongols burn and rob,

                    They are not my "favorites", but I do not intend to refuse them a place in our History.
                    Quote: merlin
                    By the way, in the first Novgorod about Kiev, not a word at all.

                    Do you know the meaning of the Russian proverb: "Your shirt is closer to the body"?
                    1. marline
                      marline 5 March 2018 13: 55
                      +3
                      If you do not mind, then I will begin to answer from the end:
                      Quote: svp67
                      Do you know the meaning of the Russian proverb: "Your shirt is closer to the body"?

                      Yes, of course, I know the meaning of this expression. Actually, having this meaning in mind, I gave you an example of a chronicle.
                      And again, if we keep this meaning in mind, then events 13c. they will appear before us in a slightly different perspective, different from that to which we are accustomed from school.
                      In fairness, not even the horrors of the invasion told us at school, although of course the emphasis on negativity was made. Well, for example, a map of the Mongol conquests from a school textbook:

                      Pay attention to the territories that are conquered, conquered and those that paid tribute.
                      Actually, the attitude of historians towards the invasion and the yoke is quite peculiar. For example, Kargalov, when describing historical events, writes about the invasion and establishment of the yoke, and when about their consequences, then suddenly about the conquest of Russia. Strange is all ...
                      Quote: svp67
                      They are not my "favorite", but also deny them a place in our

                      Well, Scythian-Hypoborrheans are certainly nonsense. But the real situation in those days was still different from the general genocide of the Russian population by the evil Mongoloids.
            2. co-creator
              co-creator 5 March 2018 14: 50
              +5
              Quote: svp67
              The "Mongols" or those whom we consider themselves to be different for them, at the slightest disobedience, they destroyed ALL.

              Did you come up with this yourself? The people in Russia during the time of the IGO became more multiple than before the IGO. Why? Therefore, a unified state began to take shape and internecine wars declined, and then there were none at all.
              Quote: svp67
              In all of our cities that were then dead, the main victims are civilians, who were simply KILLED and driven to some square. They killed obviously cold-bloodedly, most of them by blowing something heavy on the skull, in any case, this is indicated by damage to the skulls.

              How many skulls were found. Figures. I’ll tell you one thing, cities ALWAYS gave to plunder in all countries of the world until the 19th century. Part of the urban population has always been slaughtered, and since 90% of tributaries were peasants, this did not bring any big loss to the enemy. Moreover, most of those killed were local nobles and their servants.
              Quote: svp67
              But in all the annals of the peoples subjected to their expansion, at that time they are called MONGOLS

              In Russian chronicles there is no such name in European too. We called them MOGOLS and Tatar, and in the west TARTARS.
    2. co-creator
      co-creator 5 March 2018 14: 41
      +5
      Quote: svp67
      Which indirectly indicates that the Mongols had their "eyes and ears" in Russian soil.

      This says only one thing. A part of the Russian princes were on the side of the "Mongol" and used them for their own purposes.
      Quote: svp67
      And when the burning roof of the house collapsed, the Mongols ran out of the house so hastily that they did not have time to rob him, and did not have time to take away his murdered man.
      Do you need to comment? "

      A cool story, a person has a good fantasy.

      Quote: svp67
      testifying to the presence of a rich Tatar family (apparently, the governor).

      Why the viceroy? Because the author so wants?
      Quote: svp67
      with a great deal of certainty, it can be argued that the Horde Tatar lived in the estate, since the objects found were never used by the Russians and the Russians did not sell them. Items found include:

      Tatar lived. Wow. Sensation, the Tatar lived in the Russian city. Damn, and who lived in Kazan? Tatars? It can’t be, blatant lies, lies, and again lies. Tatars appeared only with the advent of the Mongols and not a day earlier. laughing
      Quote: svp67
      This type of ceramics was very appreciated during the study period in the Horde and rich Tatars brought / took it with them throughout the entire length of their migration and resettlement. "

      So what does this prove? The fact that a rich Tatar (Turk) came to Russia and settled here. How did he get there and who was he? Merchant, warrior who accepted the invitation of the local prince, a wealthy migrant merchant? The question is, how does the Tatar milking prove the Tatar-Mongol yoke?
  7. 27091965
    27091965 5 March 2018 07: 15
    0
    . This memory of them, tall and light-eyed Caucasoids, later gave rise to legends about the blue-bearded and blue-eyed Genghis Khan. ... The military elite, know, the warriors of Transbaikalia, Khakassia, Mongolia of those times were Indo-European Caucasians


    Well, it’s good that it’s not a black race. Although this theory would be more interesting.
  8. parusnik
    parusnik 5 March 2018 07: 34
    +8
    Russ fought Ryazan, Vladimir and Kiev with the late Scythian genera of the Asian part of the northern tradition.
    ..Just great... laughing The country has 404 .. ancient Sumerians the descendants of ancient ukrov we have the descendants of the Hyperboreans and Scythians from Lisbon to Alaska ... smile
  9. Lieutenant Teterin
    Lieutenant Teterin 5 March 2018 07: 35
    +13
    Article minus. For mixing real facts with outright delirium. Dear Mr. Samsonov, if you read the comments, I ask you not to be like Ukrainian nationalists and invent non-existent “facts”. The Mongol invasion was. The graves of the Mongoloids in the territory, historical attributed to the Golden Horde, are. And the lack of Russian Mongoloid genes is explained by a simple fact — Asian barbarians, brutalized by Russian resistance, simply cut down the population of rebellious cities. Including children and women.
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 5 March 2018 08: 59
      +5
      The Golden Horde on 75% EMNIP consisted of Kipchaks, they are Polovtsy, who have nothing to do with the Mongols. The population of Tatarstan, for example, clearly has a Mongoloid phenotype is also very rare.

      In Mongolia itself, the population now is 2.5 million people, no masses of Mongols could come from there, the Mongols could only come and unite their neighbors under their leadership, which became cannon fodder. Genghis Khan died, Batu died and the whole system they created simply functioned by inertia without much involvement from the Mongols for another couple of hundred years, and she did not care about the native Genghis Khan steppes.
      1. co-creator
        co-creator 5 March 2018 15: 01
        +5
        Quote: EvilLion
        The Golden Horde for 75% of the EMNIP consisted of Kipchaks, they are Polovtsy, who have nothing to do with the Mongols.

        So it was. Mongoloid tribes of course were (for example, Kalmyks), but there were very few of them.
        Quote: EvilLion
        Genghis Khan died, Batu died and the whole system they created simply functioned by inertia without much involvement from the Mongols for a couple of hundred years, and she did not care about the native Genghis Khan steppes.

        Everything is just like that . In fact, there has never been a single MONGOLIAN empire in the European sense. Historians themselves have created a myth and are trying to prove it themselves.
    2. Army soldier2
      Army soldier2 5 March 2018 10: 28
      +7
      Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
      Article minus. For mixing real facts with outright delirium. Dear Mr. Samsonov, if you read the comments ...

      I am sure that he reads and laughs heartily at the intensity of the discussion. But, the "research" on the "historical" topics of citizen Samsonov cannot be considered complete without the passionate comments of his great admirer Venya.
      I especially liked:
      Continuing the theme of “Mongols and Mongolia”, which allegedly conquered Russia, it is necessary to make a brief analysis of the film “Legend of Kolovrat” 2017 of the year. ... The problem is that most young people, and adults, perceive the film as historical.

      What is the majority? By the electorate of Navalny?
    3. co-creator
      co-creator 5 March 2018 14: 56
      +3
      Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
      The Mongol invasion was.

      Not even on paper.

      Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
      The graves of the Mongoloids in the territory, historical attributed to the Golden Horde, are.

      How many of these mass graves and how many?
      Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
      And the lack of Russian Mongoloid genes is explained by a simple fact — Asian barbarians, brutalized by Russian resistance, simply cut down the population of rebellious cities. Including children and women.

      Was everyone cut out? And then who is left? laughing
      Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
      do not be like Ukrainian nationalists and invent non-existent “facts”

      You yourself are not likened.
  10. Gloomy
    Gloomy 5 March 2018 08: 13
    +8
    No "Mongols" in Russia XIII-XV centuries. did not have

    Did you spend Internet in a yellow house?
    1. co-creator
      co-creator 5 March 2018 15: 03
      +2
      Apparently the chroniclers all departed from there since they, too, did not see any Mongols.
  11. EvilLion
    EvilLion 5 March 2018 08: 51
    +6
    When will they start banning it? That no one really argues with Batu about any racial Mongols, the invasion of Russia began from Khorezm. By that time, the Mongols remained only at the top of the whole system, in which each creature had a pair. But what other Hyperborean civilization? In Eurasia, all kinds of Caucasians live up to a fig, but this does not make them one civilization. Civilization has been forming for centuries, and the temporary rise of one empire is such a fluctuation. Real Eurasian supranational integration systems can only be called Western Europe and Russia, which the Central Asian mess does not like, and the population involved in economic life is needed, China does not consider its actual isolation as deserts and the vector of development directed more to the south.
    1. andrew42
      andrew42 5 March 2018 09: 27
      0
      From Khorezm? Where are the Islamic banners? Before the festivities of Timur, another two hundred years, unless of course you follow the example of Fomenko and begin to appeal to “phantoms”.
      1. EvilLion
        EvilLion 5 March 2018 10: 26
        +4
        And where does Islam go? The Mongol nobility did not profess Islam. If on the ground someone gravitated towards Islam, well, that’s their problem, Russia at the time of the invasion was Orthodox (officially, as a matter of fact, another question), and Orthodox remained when the Golden Horde sank into oblivion. Something I don’t remember, that someone from the Horde demanded that the Russian principalities change their religion, grandmas paid and pray at least to hell.
        1. andrew42
          andrew42 5 March 2018 10: 47
          +1
          Khorezm - in the 13th century this is the territory of Islam. If Khorezm was the organizing force of the invasion, then it would not have been possible without the Islamic factor. War between the sedentary is always under the banner of religion. A stretched version of the globe about the invasion of the "Mongols" from the territory of the conquered Khorezm, please do not offer it - this is a classic of the "Mongol-Tatar invasion", and Khorezm, as a state and culture, has nothing to do with it.
      2. co-creator
        co-creator 5 March 2018 15: 04
        +2
        Quote: andrew42
        From Khorezm? Where are the Islamic banners?

        The Gedeminovich ON were pagans, the exact same story is here.
        1. andrew42
          andrew42 5 March 2018 15: 43
          0
          What is the “same story” with the Gediminids? Litvinov destroyed the church in White Russia? in Kiev? - Something I do not recall such evidence. Here is the fact that the descendants of Gedimin, after the inclusion of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, could not decide who to fall for — Catholics, or schismatics — and there were serious disassemblies in their relatives — yes. But where are the "ruthless conquerors", church destroyers, where is the "Lithuanian yoke"? - There is nothing "the same."
          1. co-creator
            co-creator 5 March 2018 16: 34
            +2
            Quote: andrew42
            What is the “same story” with the Gediminids?

            Plain. The gedeminovichs did not care who believed in what and they changed their faith like gloves, depending on the conditions.
            Quote: andrew42
            Litvinov destroyed the church in White Russia? in Kiev? - Something I do not recall such evidence.

            If the city is taken by attack, then the churches are also burning. If everything is peaceful. nobody is touching the church. Specifically, churches are destroyed only during religious wars.

            Quote: andrew42
            Here is the fact that the descendants of Gedimin, after the inclusion of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, could not decide who to fall for — Catholics, or schismatics — and there were serious disassemblies in their relatives — yes. But where are the "ruthless conquerors", church destroyers, where is the "Lithuanian yoke"? - There is nothing "the same."

            So we are talking exclusively about religion, not destruction.
            Luzhkov destroyed more than all the Mongols put together if that.
  12. andrew42
    andrew42 5 March 2018 09: 22
    +2
    "Veliky Novgorod with its vast suburbs (the so-called cities dependent on Novgorod) could put up a large army, which together with the teams of the Grand Duke" - ??? - It is unlikely. The Novgorodians would rather have helped the “Horde” to finish off the Suzdal people, than they would have decided to send help to the “lower lands” at the veche - not for that they beat the Suzdal people on Lipitsa. But the absence of Yaroslav is very revealing, as well as the "sudden" friendship of Yuri with the Kontantinovichs, that is, with the "western" party of North-Eastern Russia. This is all the more strange because Yaroslav as soon as possible receives the label of "Grand Duke of Vladimir" from the hands of the "conquerors", and even with Kiev and Chernigov, in addition. Yaroslav brought those who appear as "Mongols" - this is clear as twice two. But who these same "trash" were, is still not clear. Only one thing is clear. That is not the Türks, and not the Mongolian shepherds. Surely, there was certainly a major Polovtsian contingent. Polovtsev led into civil strife was a well-established affair since Oleg Svyatoslavich Chernigovsky. It is worth recalling that the mother of Andrei Bogolyubsky was Polovka. The root of the Polovtsian power was Siberia - the Southern Urals, the south of the Osk Region and the Krasnoyarsk Territory - this is not even hidden by anyone. It is necessary to dig in Polovtsy, and not only in the baptized khans west of the Don and Volga, = the notorious "Siberian Rus" may erupt.
    1. Quintus sertorius
      Quintus sertorius 7 March 2018 13: 04
      +1
      I support. By the way, the wife of Yaroslav (the stepmother of Nevsky) is also a Polovtsian. And in confirmation of your words I’ll inform you that in vain Samsonov with reference to Rashid ad Dina writes that Pereyaslavl Zalessky was taken by Batu. The city was burned later - Nevruem, when the rebellion of Andrei, brother of Nevsky, was suppressed. By the way, in Novgorod during the invasion there was no prince. Conclusion - Yaroslav and his family were in their fiefdom and collaborated with the invaders, which is why he received a label for the Great reign. But this is not very spread - the prestige of Nevsky will suffer. Although it is no secret that Alexander Yaroslavich is the sister of Sartak, the son of Batu.
  13. lwimu1976
    lwimu1976 5 March 2018 09: 27
    +1
    [quote. [/ quote]





    Because other traces of the centuries-old "great civilization" (cities, roads, dams, etc.) cannot be seen in the vastness of the Urals to Altai ... request[/ Quote]

    Yamburg, D. Yamki and the coachman do not drive horses! (Yam, horse.)
    1. co-creator
      co-creator 5 March 2018 15: 07
      +1
      Quote: lwimu1976
      Yamburg, D. Yamki and the coachman do not drive horses! (Yam, horse.)

      Do you think this is a purely Mongolian notion? lol
      1. lwimu1976
        lwimu1976 5 March 2018 18: 04
        0
        I think that postal stations are modeled after them.
        1. co-creator
          co-creator 5 March 2018 18: 34
          +1
          And before that, how did they move the mail, and generally move? Absolutely du..raki were and could not think of such a primitive system?
          1. lwimu1976
            lwimu1976 5 March 2018 22: 07
            0
            The messenger postman

            So there was the famous Russian Yamskaya chase from the word "pits." From Mongolian, this meant postal stations. Then the whole local population was obliged to deliver horses with guides to certain points.

            Later, this system spread further. By the 1516th-XNUMXth centuries, postal service already covered the whole territory of Russia. Peasants and village people in those days had to carry messengers and messengers. Coachmen delivered not only letters, but also luggage and people. In XNUMX, a Yamsky order was established, which oversaw the coachmen and the delivery of government securities. So it is safe to say that it was the Mongolian post that played a significant role in the historical development of the countries that were part of the empire of the descendants of Genghis Khan.
            1. co-creator
              co-creator 6 March 2018 00: 29
              +1
              Quote: lwimu1976
              So there was the famous Russian Yamskaya chase from the word "pits." From Mongolian, this meant postal stations. Then the whole local population was obliged to deliver horses with guides to certain points.

              Do you understand that this is the most primitive thing before the Mongols? Without this, it is not possible for a principality or state to exist on a large territory. And here are the Mongols?
              Quote: lwimu1976
              Coachmen delivered not only letters, but also luggage and people.

              FREE SEEING?)
  14. tank66
    tank66 5 March 2018 10: 25
    +5
    I’ll throw it, hmm, the woods. I will not trend for Arkaim - this is / like Stonehenge / crap for the tourist industry. But there are facts that do not fit into the official historical paradigm. For example:

    During aerial photography of the Novosibirsk region, near the city of Zdvinsk, on the shore of Lake Chicha, a strange anomaly was noticed. Upon further study of these images, scientists were simply amazed, because they discovered a city with a total area of ​​more than 12 hectares. This place was named - Chichaburg.
    ***
    Or, here, I especially like

    One single mine located within the Chelyabinsk village of Borisovka has been preserved in excellent condition to this day. According to geological data, this find dates back to the second millennium BC.
    Obviously, this is clearly a “pre-Mongolian” work. But the page from The Tale of Bygone Years, where it is mentioned about Rurik’s calling, is a remake / proved by criminologists /. They didn’t really find nichrome on the Kulikovo field. I don’t believe that the mungals are 300 years old with the help of a few Basque tax collectors they plundered Russia / where the values ​​were gone /. And the Russian women did not give birth to a single bystryuk. I apologize for the vinaigrette of thoughts. The fact that we are rubbed / and Fomenko and Schlozer / - shnyaga complete.
  15. wer2
    wer2 5 March 2018 11: 01
    +3
    Quote: Samsonov Alexander
    No "Mongols" in Russia XIII-XV centuries. did not have

    1. It is not clear why the “Mongols” are written in parentheses.
    2. Of course, there were no Mongols in Russia. Nowadays every schoolchild knows this.
    3. There is a "small inaccuracy." Russia in those days is a territory that today is one of the parts of Ukraine. Accordingly, those Rusichs are the ancestors of the Little Russians. And Little Russians, this is one of the parts of Ukrainians. The most numerous of them. Little Russians of Russia were Orthodox all the way.
    4. There is another "inaccuracy." In Russia there was an "invasion" of tartar. The Greeks called them Mughals, which meant long, high. This nickname is. Therefore, the Catherine term of tartar-mogul, it sounds very silly today.
    Tartars, this is a part of the inhabitants of ancient Russia, Rusich who converted to Islam. In those ancient times, there was a division of one people, the ancient Rus, religiously divided into 2 parts. On tartar and Rusich. The latter are sometimes called Kiev Rus, so as not to be confused with the ancients. But this is a conditional term. In fact, they both were and continued to be called Rusich. Unlike tartars (Moscow).
    Tartars (Moscow), these are the ancestors of the Muscovites. The difference in state religion, the Tartars were Muslims, and Muscovites, Orthodox. In addition, the state changed, Moscow Tartaria (within the framework of Great Tartaria) was replaced by Muscovy.
    Simply put, Muscovy is one of the fragments of Great Tartaria. Disputes on this subject do not quench, but it is very likely that Moscow Tartaria was the "heart" of Great Tartaria. Her mother country. To understand that scale, it should be noted that the Great Wall of China was built by tartars. To protect yourself from the raids of the Chayn tribes, from the south. At the same time, local residents north of this wall were called China or Chinese (living outside the wall). To this day, a country such as China and its inhabitants are Chinese only in Russian. For the rest of the world, this is China and tea.
    And the Muscovites are the ancestors of the Great Russians. The difference in state structure, Muscovites lived in the Principality (Moscow, in Muscovy), and Great Russians, in the Empire (Russian).
    And the Great Russians after 1917, the Bolsheviks renamed into Russian. It is clear here that the state system has again changed.
    Well, something like that.
    Those. At one time, the ancient Rusichs were divided into Kiev Rusichs (continued to be called Rusichs) and Tartarus, the inhabitants of Moscow Tartaria. Therefore, genetically the Great Russians and Little Russians, this is one people. And mentally, different.
    You can add that a little earlier the Slavs were divided into ancient Rus and glades. And the meadow, in turn, was divided into Poles, Czechs and other Slovaks.
    But with the Litvins and Rusyns it is not so simple.

    Whoever doesn’t like it, can consider it all as a fairy tale invented by me. It will be easier for him. I don’t care, but he will be pleased.
  16. zoolu350
    zoolu350 5 March 2018 11: 06
    +6
    The author began for health (real facts of the invasion), and finished for repose (hyperborea, etc.).
    I bring to your attention that the Turkic Mongols of the 13th century have the same relation to modern Khalkha-Mongols as the ancient Romans to the modern Italian people, and the ancient Egyptians to the modern Arab population, that is, the place of residence and all. The last remnants of those Turkic-Mongols were destroyed in the 17th century. Qingami (Manchu), by the way, with the assistance of the Khalkha-Mongol, since they were representatives of the Northern Yuan Dynasty, and Qing was not needed for power in China.
    Now upon the invasion.
    Grand Duke Yuri Vsevolodovich had several options for preventing the invasion:
    1. Submit completely;
    2. Try to sit outside the walls of cities, in the hope that each assault will weaken the forces of the enemy and they will not have time to capture all the cities in one campaign. Disadvantages: this option was chosen by the ruler of the Volga Bulgaria and passive tactics did not save, as the Horde might not leave the principality after the end of the winter campaign;
    3. To divide the army into a fortress and a field unit and without engaging in major battles, destroy the enemy’s small (reconnaissance-foraging) units by the field army, making it difficult for the main forces to carry out sieges and assaults. Possessing knowledge, we can say that this is the only option for the Vladimir-Suzdal principality to fight back. Disadvantages: the southeastern part of the principality with the capital would have been ruined anyway;
    4. The Grand Duke chose this option. It’s called All-in. All the forces of the Vladimir-Suzdal principality were concentrated in the border region of the neighboring principality, where the remnants of the troops of the Ryazan principality strengthened it. If the battle with the Horde was successful, Yuri Vsevolodovich completely avoided the ruin of his principality and became the full owner of the Ryazan principality. Disadvantages: in case of defeat, we see what happened and the appearance of a multi-dark srach in VO.
  17. Curious
    Curious 5 March 2018 11: 52
    +16
    In principle, the "History" section can be renamed the "Historical Srach" section (this is not a curse word). Only Shpakovsky remained from history in it, but, as he does not diversify his materials, one in the field does not compensate for the amount of organic matter that is turned on the heads of readers. I see no reason to polemicize with the author, since I believe that all these publications are created deliberately for organizing mass brawls in the form of a mega-doctor, hohlosrach, mongolosrach and the like.
    Publications are in the nature of drafts and use historical facts solely as an excuse to provoke yet another seething.
    I don’t presume to give recipes, but maybe the website’s sober-minded participants will try to ignore, for starters, this informational gender. Maybe there are other suggestions. Something should be done, otherwise the "History" section will be demolished by hamsters, like a horde of Mongols.
    1. Mikado
      Mikado 5 March 2018 12: 23
      +12
      Something should be done, otherwise the "History" section will be demolished by hamsters, like a horde of Mongols.

      he already demolished. Please note that many are already disappointed and just do not go to the site. And if they come in, then they don’t comment, so as not to get a stream of diarrhea in response "according to class criteria." What is happening on the “news” and “opinions” is a separate article that can hardly be called a forum. what
      I will join you on many points, dear Victor Nikolaevich. I used to think that you need to be diplomatic. Tired of ... wink drinks
    2. Monarchist
      Monarchist 5 March 2018 14: 03
      +5
      V.N. And you, dear Nikolai "Mikado", I propose to rename the "History" section to "Mythology and Fantasy" and then everything will fall into place
      1. Mikado
        Mikado 5 March 2018 14: 28
        +4
        V.N. And you, dear Nikolai "Mikado", I propose to rename the "History" section to "Mythology and Fantasy" and then everything will fall into place

        I would add another page "Humor" and the section "for the smallest viewers". wink drinks
        1. Hantengri
          Hantengri 5 March 2018 19: 17
          +2
          Quote: Mikado
          and the "for the smallest viewers" section.

          In the sense that: "The juvenile de`Bill is not the date of birth in the passport, but the state of the brain!" (c) (D. Puchkov (Goblin))? I with all limbs "FOR"! drinks
          1. Mikado
            Mikado 5 March 2018 19: 27
            +3
            I'm with all limbs "FOR"! drinks

            So do I. drinks Gather some, and shove there, in the sandbox, to increase the educational level and horizons. wink
            1. Hantengri
              Hantengri 5 March 2018 20: 52
              +2
              Quote: Mikado
              Gather some, and shove there, in the sandbox, to increase the educational level and horizons.

              Wangyu: the therapeutic effect, from “pushing in”, will irresistibly tend to zero, because if a person is dead, then it will be for a long time, and if q ... to - then forever! Therefore, I propose: In the "Humor" section, create a subsection: "They say" children "" and enjoy the pearls.)))
              1. Mikado
                Mikado 5 March 2018 21: 42
                +2
                In the section "Humor" create a subsection: "They say" children "" and enjoy the pearls.)))

                I would enjoy. wink But .. when adult children shower each other with patriotic or whatever slogans, it looks sad .. No. Yesterday, someone even said that you can calmly communicate only on the "history" section. what and then .. sometimes this pops up ..
      2. Curious
        Curious 5 March 2018 14: 29
        +8
        Do not insult fantasy by comparison with this scribble. I like Murcock, I see the philosophical meaning in it. And here ...........
        1. Cat
          Cat 5 March 2018 18: 40
          +3
          Quote: Curious
          Do not insult fantasy by comparison with this scribble. I like Murcock, I see the philosophical meaning in it. And here ...........

          You can see right away Victor You are our man!
          MUR-KOK or cat cook !!!
          1. Mikado
            Mikado 5 March 2018 19: 05
            +3
            but I thought a fur seal looks like that ... what Just not a cook! wink
            1. Cat
              Cat 5 March 2018 20: 24
              +2
              Nikolay, Nikolay how could you confuse Mur-Kok with Mur-Kep !!!
              1. Mikado
                Mikado 5 March 2018 20: 31
                +3
                I have no mercy! recourse I’ll go before my cat for sins. wink
  18. Seraphimamur
    Seraphimamur 5 March 2018 12: 30
    +2
    Good article: lucidly explains why the Russians did not become narrow-eyed after three hundred years of unbearable yoke.
  19. Luga
    Luga 5 March 2018 12: 37
    +8
    I read the article. And the first and second parts. There are no questions on the first one - I read one monograph after the invasion - that's it, consider the text is ready. In the second part, there are also not many questions - knowing the author’s previous "works", it is simply absurd to expect anything else.
    We have in the dry residue the following undeniable theses.
    1. Russian militarily invincible.
    2. If someone defeated the Russians, then he himself is Russian.
    Only the role in this internecine disassembly of the Vatican, London and Washington is unclear - who did they recruit in the Russian elite - Batu Dzhuchievich, Yuri Vsevolodovich or Yaroslav Vsevolodovich? Someone must be guilty, otherwise the reader will have a feeling of dissatisfaction with the knowledge gained ...
    And further. It is not entirely clear from the article what happened: the progressive light forces of the “superethnos” from the east taught the minds of their rotten relatives, who were fed with poison from the West, who wanted to move away from their roots, or who were incited by the Masons and the Vatican to attack the Eastern Russians. older brothers, but quickly reconciled with them and together began to create a Great Empire?
    If the author will be able to answer these questions (“who is the traitor?” And “what was that?”), His historical concept can be considered final and you can send an application to the Nobel Committee ... Well, or to other institutions, where the author It seems to me that they have been putting truancy for a long time.
    1. Mikado
      Mikado 5 March 2018 12: 47
      +7
      Only the role in this internecine disassembly of the Vatican, London and Washington is incomprehensible.

      Mikhail, they forgot to mention the Jews - Mongolian, German, Martian, Vatican, just Jews.
      If the author is able to answer these questions, ("who is the traitor?" And "what was that?")

      why so. The author’s articles very much increase their self-esteem. wink read and understand - "everything is not so bad with me!" laughing
      1. BAI
        BAI 5 March 2018 13: 31
        +4
        Jews forgot to mention

        Yes Yes. I, too, wondered how it was done without them.
        1. Mikado
          Mikado 5 March 2018 13: 40
          +7
          Yes Yes. I, too, wondered how it was done without them.

          exactly! unforgivable mistake, put Michael in sight! drinks if we dig the problem further and deeper, we will understand that the Jews are just a tool in the hands of the Nibiruisk Annunaki Reptiloids! request (hello Dmitry! wink ) That is, Mr. Comrade Samsonov has the broadest scope for activity. fellow We wish him success in this field! good (I haven’t mentioned it yet about the Holodozed penguin drinkers wink).
          1. Luga
            Luga 5 March 2018 15: 02
            +4
            Quote: Mikado
            put on the look of Michael!

            Guys, I'm not on purpose, I'm sorry! crying Henceforth, I undertake to try not to forget about the Jews, especially the Mongol ...
            laughing hi
            1. Mikado
              Mikado 5 March 2018 15: 07
              +4
              we, as descendants of the patriots of Hyperborea, forgive ... what but the esteemed Warrior Wow just offended! wink drinks
    2. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 5 March 2018 14: 14
      +8
      "1. The Russians are invincible militarily.
      2. If someone defeated the Russians, then he himself is Russian. "//////

      Cool!
      And it is very reminiscent of a win-win thesis of Jewish nationalists:
      1. Jews are the smartest.
      2. If someone is smarter than a Jew, then he is a Jew himself. laughing
      1. co-creator
        co-creator 5 March 2018 15: 11
        +1
        Quote: voyaka uh
        And it is very reminiscent of a win-win thesis of Jewish nationalists:
        1. Jews are the smartest.
        2. If someone is smarter than a Jew, then he is a Jew himself.

        Well this is very close to the truth. wink
      2. Luga
        Luga 5 March 2018 17: 41
        +4
        Quote: voyaka uh
        And it is very reminiscent of a win-win thesis of Jewish nationalists:

        If the thesis of Jewish nationalists is further developed sequentially, the number of Jews in the world will increase significantly and can reach 99,9%, that is, the entire population of the globe will be conditionally divided into the actual Jews (the first group), who are the most intelligent, Jewish nationalists (the second group) with to them, Samsonov and his followers (the same level of mental retardation) and patients of various psychiatric institutions (the third group) with a diagnosis are no easier than "imbecility", because if it is easier, this is the second group.
        1. Mikado
          Mikado 5 March 2018 18: 21
          +6
          If the thesis of Jewish nationalists is further developed sequentially, the number of Jews in the world will increase significantly and can reach 99,9%, that is, the entire population of the globe will be conditionally divided into the actual Jews (the first group), who are the most intelligent, Jewish nationalists (the second group) with to them, Samsonov and his followers (the same level of mental retardation) and patients of various psychiatric institutions (the third group) with a diagnosis are no easier than "imbecility", because if it is easier, this is the second group.

          Michael, if we take the religious version of the creation of man, then we are all Jews. Or from Adam, not only Jews evolved? .... what when the number of Jews reaches 99,99%, tell V.O.Shpakovsky, he will come and divide us into 20% of smart Jews and 80% of stupid Jews according to the Pareto law. laughing drinks Damn, really a booth! Friends, I seriously like today's discussion! good I didn’t laugh like that for a long time, thanks! drinks
          1. Luga
            Luga 5 March 2018 18: 56
            +5
            Quote: Mikado
            Friends, I seriously like today's discussion!

            Yes, it’s noisy and fun here today. smile
            I imagine how tired men are wiping torn shirts over the night all over the country, who smokes - tries to strike a cigarette lighter with shaking fingers, who does not smoke - he pours something transparent to himself by ringing the carafe on the edge of the glass ... The most persistent fighters yet, wiping sweat from their foreheads, they finish off the last exclamation marks in the comments, but darkness from the east slowly and inexorably approaches the country and now the last of them falls asleep in a restless sleep, shuddering and sobbing quietly in a dream: "... Tartars ... Scythians .. . I them ... all ... the yoke ... "
            And over all this booth in the stellar height, smiling sweetly, Klio flies quietly and thinks: "Visit Samsonov also tomorrow, or not?"
            1. Mikado
              Mikado 5 March 2018 19: 02
              +3
              The most staunch fighters, wiping sweat from their foreheads, finish off the last exclamation marks in the comments, but darkness from the east is slowly and inexorably approaching the country and now the last of them is falling asleep in a restless sleep, shuddering and sobbing quietly in a dream: "... Tartars. .. Scythians ... I told them ... everyone ... yoke ... "

              I have long noticed that the most talked about are articles that are built on the principle of "give out something kind of shocking." Although they have a place in the basket. But .. clicks, clicks! request
              And over all this booth in the stellar height, smiling sweetly, Klio flies quietly and thinks: "Visit Samsonov also tomorrow, or not?"

              You surely think that Clio? (for knowledge of muses - I bow! good) ... mm ... For some reason I’m sure that he is visited by the spirit of Bob Marley. Just without a Hawaiian drum, but with dreadlocks and a bag of something with a slide, and regularly. fellow
              1. Luga
                Luga 5 March 2018 20: 19
                +4
                Quote: Mikado
                You surely think that Clio?

                Old Clio, in my opinion, like all muses, should be a frivolous mischievous person, prone to jokes and hoaxes - otherwise what kind of muse is she? smile
                I did not find a textbook on the anatomy of muses, so I can’t say how their digestive organs are arranged, but, apparently, they have a metabolism and even have favorite places for storing its products. Muses are visited by some figures, of course, only for this ...
                1. Mikado
                  Mikado 5 March 2018 20: 34
                  +3
                  I did not find a textbook on the anatomy of muses, so I can’t say how their digestive organs are arranged, but, apparently, they have a metabolism and even have favorite places for storing its products. Muses are visited by some figures, of course, only for this ...

                  if you take an increase in educational level, then I like to go to the “cabinet of thoughtfulness” with a book wink just ... the muse has never visited me there before! request laughing
                  1. Curious
                    Curious 5 March 2018 23: 40
                    +3
                    But hemorrhoids will definitely visit. The toilet is not a hut - a reading room. Did the job - and leave. The standard is 3 minutes.
                    1. Mikado
                      Mikado 6 March 2018 10: 00
                      +3
                      But hemorrhoids will definitely visit. The toilet is not a hut - a reading room. Did the job - and leave. The standard is 3 minutes.

                      I don’t know, I’ve been doing it for almost thirty years without meeting the norm, but there are no hints. You are a good man, Viktor Nikolaevich ... wink drinks
                      1. Curious
                        Curious 6 March 2018 13: 36
                        +2
                        "It accidentally comes upon you when you are not waiting for it at all ..."
  20. Per se.
    Per se. 5 March 2018 12: 38
    +2
    No "Mongols" in Russia XIII-XV centuries. did not have... We must understand that the Tatar-Mongol yoke, too, why would such a trend of rethinking history suddenly rush? A solid white race that fought on Russian soil, oh, these "fairy tales", oh, these "storytellers" ... How can we not recall Vysotsky here.
    Only Russian in the family,
    My great-grandfather - Samarin, -
    If anyone came to me,
    So he is a Tatar ...
  21. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 5 March 2018 13: 14
    +8
    "There were no" Mongols "in Russia of the XIII-XV centuries." ////

    So the French in 1812 were not in Russia! The French are a primitive, nomadic tribe
    from Western Europe, frog and snail eaters. How could they get there
    to Moscow, not having at least cars and steam locomotives?
    The very name "Napoleon" (on-field-on) and its growth indicate that it was a dwarf leader of the field
    Aboriginal Bushmen.
    1. BAI
      BAI 5 March 2018 14: 05
      +4
      It is not for nothing that there is an expression: "What did the elephant do when On-field-he came."
    2. co-creator
      co-creator 5 March 2018 15: 12
      +1
      Quote: voyaka uh
      So the French in 1812 were not in Russia! The French are a primitive, nomadic tribe
      from Western Europe, frog and snail eaters. How could they get there

      Banter past the cash register. Even somehow uncomfortable for you.
      Quote: voyaka uh
      to Moscow, not having at least cars and steam locomotives?

      Well, actually, how did this journey end?
  22. BAI
    BAI 5 March 2018 13: 15
    +4
    Well, what is there to answer such a passage?
    As the historian Yu. D. Petukhov notes in the work “Antiquities of the Rus”: “The huge forest-steppe spaces of the Northern Black Sea coast through the Southern Urals and to Altai, Sayan and Mongolia itself, those spaces that idle writers populated with fictional“ Mongols ”actually belonged to well-known science "Proto-Scythian-Siberian world", and then Scythian-Siberian. "

    Only similar:
    Linguistic borrowings in Russian.
    To talk about linguistics, you first need to at least understand what language the Tatar-Mongol conquerors spoke. Kungurov (this is the author of the controversy with which the author of the quote leads - approx. BAI) apparently decided that it was exclusively in Mongolian (well, or its ancient version).
    But real history says that even in the very early stages of the formation of the Genghis Khan empire, it was a conglomerate of Turkic-speaking and Mongol-speaking tribes.

    And during the conquests of Batu, when the lands of the Polovtsy (Kipchaks) and other Asian Turkic-speaking nomads and states were included in the empire - there is no need to talk about any Mongol-speaking army of the invasion.

    It must be understood that for the Mongols of those times it was the norm to replenish armies with soldiers from the conquered peoples, and the moment came when the Russian squads entered the Tatar-Mongol forces in the same way and participated in their campaigns in Iran and China. Actually from this banal fact, a completely stupid idea grows that the Tatar-Mongols = Russians.

    Thus, Russia was conquered mainly by the Turkic-speaking troops, which is why there is a huge number of Turkisms in the Russian language. It is not at all necessary that all these borrowings are the result of an invasion, but the same written sources make it possible to roughly understand when what words and why appeared. It was with the Tatar yoke that the words “pit, coachman” (horse-drawn courier), money (Tatar small coins), “customs” (post for tribute taxation) entered the Russian language. Although the question of Mongolism in Russian is also not a straightforward question - there are few of them, but they supposedly exist.

    Well, you can not keep silent about genetics.

    Distribution map of Mongolian halogen groups.
    But we must remember that in fact, if anyone conquered us, it is the Turks.
    But with the Turks, everything is genetically just fine with us - there is such a common haplogroup R1a1 that half of the Russians have that the Kyrgyz and the Turkmens.
    1. Luga
      Luga 5 March 2018 13: 26
      +4
      Quote: BAI
      Well, what is there to answer such a passage?
      As the historian Yu. D. Petukhov notes in the work “Antiquities of the Rus”:

      "Historian" Yu.D. Petukhov is a science fiction writer. It is enough to familiarize yourself with the list of his creations to understand this with all the obviousness. Nevertheless, it seems to me that he is the main ideological inspirer of the one who calls himself “Samsonov Alexander”. Whose citation do you quote? I wonder who calls Petukhov "historian."
      1. BAI
        BAI 5 March 2018 14: 02
        +3
        The author of the quoted materials, who wished to remain anonymous, under the nickname
        Gosh100, polemically in absentia with a certain historian Alexei Kungurov (https://gosh100.livejournal.com/69452.html). And Petukhova was called a historian by the author of the article under discussion - citizen A. Samsonov. The first quote is from the article under discussion.
        1. Luga
          Luga 5 March 2018 17: 51
          +1
          Quote: BAI
          The first quote is from the article under discussion.

          I repent, I did not pay attention to the article ... I was in a hurry, apparently, to finish reading. On the other hand, read all this dregs carefully - time is a pity. As for Petukhov, I have long ago discovered the most extensive quotes of this author in Samsonov’s works ... Maybe relatives?
    2. co-creator
      co-creator 5 March 2018 15: 15
      +1
      Quote: BAI
      But we must remember that in fact, if anyone conquered us, it is the Turks.

      This is when it was?
      Quote: BAI
      But with the Turks, everything is genetically just fine with us - there is such a common haplogroup R1a1 that half of the Russians have that the Kyrgyz and the Turkmens.

      It is very small, you can say the usual error.
      1. BAI
        BAI 5 March 2018 16: 41
        +2
        This is when it was?

        Yes, just during the Mongol-Tatar invasion. Or did they just pass by?
        She is very small

        (Y half Russians have that the Kyrgyz and the Turkmens.) 50% small error?
        1. co-creator
          co-creator 5 March 2018 17: 50
          +1
          Quote: BAI
          Yes, just during the Mongol-Tatar invasion. Or did they just pass by?

          But not conquest? laughing
          Quote: BAI
          (half of the Russians have that the Kyrgyz and the Turkmens.) 50% small error?

          Well yes . There are no pure nations in the world, even on distant islands. The percentage of these common genes is small. The fact that both sides have it suggests that it was a mutual contact of ethnic groups and not during the conquest of one another. Simply put, Turkic women slept with Slavic men and vice versa.
  23. Net
    Net 5 March 2018 13: 37
    +2
    Genghis Khan is considered born in 1150 or 1162 or 1206. Created his empire. By 1234, it occupies all of Eurasia. At that time, the Golden Empire of buzzards (Nürgenes) flourished in the “Mongolian” territory, and did not even know about the “Mongols”. In 1234, its capital was smashed by the Chinese and spread further, capturing the "native" Mongolian lands.
    At the same time, in 1234, some “Mongols” were trying to land in Japan and die in a storm. When the Chinese rob and destroy the Mongol villages, the "Mongol" Batu, in another part of the planet in 1238, attacks Russia. Is he sick, anyway? Or the fact that he "Mongol" simply does not know?
    We open the Mercator map. And there, Asia is divided into only 2 parts; Scythia and Far Scythia. And another trifle, such as China. "Mongols" under a microscope do not detect. So who attacked Russia?
    1. co-creator
      co-creator 7 March 2018 12: 36
      +2
      No one will ever answer this to you.
  24. Monarchist
    Monarchist 5 March 2018 13: 54
    0
    Quote: Artek
    you can write a hundred articles per year by Alexander Samsonov, but you are not able to understand the essence of the question and therefore will mislead people forever. Meanwhile, the answer to the question WHO SUCH MONGOLS has already been found and lies in the plane, first of all, of linguistics.
    in the drawing book of Siberia Remezov we see the names of localities with characteristic names
    -MUNGALS- WHITE
    -MUNGALS-YELLOW
    -MUNGALS-BLACK


    here are the lands of the Far East. On these lands we see
    Kingdom of Gilat
    - Brothers non-regular / non-lopsided horse and deer

    so
    -Mongols is the moon of GALA, i.e. Gala
    Here is such an answer, but Gali is Kolyan / Sokolyan / Russian / Goth

    And I naively believed that galy-paddles.
  25. ver_
    ver_ 5 March 2018 13: 55
    0
    Quote: 210ox
    In my opinion, I already read this a couple of months ago .. And yet .. And who is Genghis Khan? A group of pensioners from Germany, or is it a Mongol warrior prince?
    Quote: Korsar4
    The two parts are little connected. So who are Batu and Burundi?

    ... after the fall of Troy, at the invitation of the princes, Khan John Rurik Varyag the Troyan arrived in Russia to reign .. - Grandson of Khan Gostomysl .., courtier (Christ’s disciple - John) ..,
    A new branch of Russian princes = khans = kings went from him ..
    All descendants of Rurik had the title of Khan ..
    Rurik * gave birth * to Vsevolod ..
    Vsevolod * gave birth * to the eldest son (Caesar), Yuri, Georgy Dolgoruky, Genghis Khan, and the youngest John, Yaroslav, Khan Batu (prosperitor John), Ivan Kalita .., John Kalif ..
    1. Hantengri
      Hantengri 5 March 2018 22: 07
      +1
      Quote: ver_
      ... after the fall of Troy, at the invitation of the princes, Khan John Rurik Varyag the Troyan arrived in Russia to reign .. - Grandson of Khan Gostomysl .., courtier (Christ’s disciple - John) ..,
      A new branch of Russian princes = khans = kings went from him ..
      All descendants of Rurik had the title of Khan ..
      Rurik * gave birth * to Vsevolod ..
      Vsevolod * gave birth * to the eldest son (Caesar), Yuri, Georgy Dolgoruky, Genghis Khan, and the youngest John, Yaroslav, Khan Batu (prosperitor John), Ivan Kalita .., John Kalif ..

      How much do the boxes?
      1. co-creator
        co-creator 7 March 2018 12: 35
        +1
        Quote: HanTengri
        How much do the boxes?

        Because the rest was taken apart by historians from official science.
  26. sib.ataman
    sib.ataman 5 March 2018 14: 09
    +1
    Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
    Article minus. For mixing real facts with outright delirium. Dear Mr. Samsonov, if you read the comments, I ask you not to be like Ukrainian nationalists and invent non-existent “facts”. The Mongol invasion was. The graves of the Mongoloids in the territory, historical attributed to the Golden Horde, are. And the lack of Russian Mongoloid genes is explained by a simple fact — Asian barbarians, brutalized by Russian resistance, simply cut down the population of rebellious cities. Including children and women.


    Lieutenant, minus-a lot of mind is not required, but understanding the intricacies of myth-makers from Torah-i is not a simple, but not hopeless business! For a simple understanding, why are zapadentsy-Bandera behave in the Donbass like animals? By the way, their predecessors behaved in the same way in the Western regions in the 40-50s, when they were cleared by the NKVD-MGB. And above all, because they are Gentiles, Uniates, Catholics, subjects of the Pope. And how did the crusaders behave on our land? Because the Gentiles! And Serbs with Croats (ethnic tribesmen) have been slaughtering each other for centuries! But because the Gentiles!
    Now remember, Lieutenant, that Western media write about Russia today. Approximately, the events that took place then were described, the chronicle brother wrote something about the Gentiles (Christianity was present in Russia for only a couple of centuries). Analyze, Lieutenant!
  27. sib.ataman
    sib.ataman 5 March 2018 14: 46
    0
    Alexander! Making such high-profile statements right in the headline, for some reason you later show a striking inconsistency, trying to explain the essence of what was happening with the help of materials from official chronicles, although your understanding is not reflected therein. You at least modestly mentioned that the cleaning of the annals, or rather the Vedas, was carried out in Russia more than once: both under John IV the Terrible and under Alexei Mikhailovich Romanov. And what did not have time then, they cleaned the Millers, Bayers, Shletser and their name is legion. Those. there is only one source in science and, based on it, the official version (a kind of short course of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks). Walking along this path, you will not explain and tell nothing to anyone.
    But your mention of GRUND TARTARIA, which is present on Western European maps until the end of the XNUMXth century, for some reason is modestly absent from your material. Say also that you have not heard of this. And your modesty is inappropriate in this matter! Unlike you and us in the Vatican, it’s not only that they not only remember about it, but also control the process so that there are as few as possible who remember!
    And I explained the remaining nuances of your material to Lieutenant Teterin.
    Alexander, half the truth is sometimes worse than a lie!
  28. reservist
    reservist 5 March 2018 15: 12
    0
    Quote: wer2
    There is a "little inaccuracy." Russia in those days is a territory that today is one of the parts of Ukraine.

    maybe you should first decide on the borders of Ukraine ...
  29. kishat
    kishat 5 March 2018 15: 20
    +2
    The author of the article is not competent in the history of ancient Russia. Again, the representative of the nationalists is trying to impose an absurd theory about the allegedly non-existence of the Mongol invasion, citing the fact that there were no Mongoloids in Russia, and then Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Kolmyks, Buryats, Tuvans, Yakuts, Khakases, Altai, etc., came from did the Yenisei Kyrgyz from Baikal and the Yenisei transfer to Kyrgyzstan? And why do most of these peoples speak different dialects of the ONE Kipchak language (even isolated Yakuts), and yet he was not native to many? Now about this nonsense: (Russian-Russes are Caucasians, like Bulgars-Volgars (future Kazan Tatars), Polovtsy, Pechenegs, and before them Sarmatians and Scythians. Hordes are also Caucasians, representatives of the white race.) - all this nonsense is born in your due to ignorance of the origin of the Russes, some argue that the Rus are Aryans, others that the Scandinavians (Vikings), others that the Rus are Türks, and each statement has a place to be. But to attribute the Türkic peoples of the Bulgars, Pechenegs, Polovtsians (Kipchaks) to the Europeans Scythians and Saramates is complete nonsense! Bulgars and Pechenegs Türkic peoples formed after the collapse of the Huns from the blood union of the Ogurs (Oguzes) of the Proto-Türks with their vassals by the Europeans, including the Scythians and Saramates. The Huns spoke the Ogre languages, they adopted the script from the Arameans. Kipchaks (Polovtsy) a newly formed people from the union of different Turkic tribes who spoke Kipchak, with the advent of the Horde, this language became common and was adopted by many peoples, including, and the Bulgars are the only ones from the Huns who adopted a foreign language. Why didn’t the Russians become Mongoloid? Firstly, the Mongol tribes were in a minority the main backbone of the Horde was the Bulgars, Khazars, Ugors, Pechenegs, Kipchaks, Dugars, etc., i.e., the local peoples who lived with the Rus before the Mongol came. Secondly, the Rus were vassals of the Horde and not slaves, many Princes received their title and influence precisely thanks to the allies from the Horde. And it was from the Horde that the history of Great Russia began, and not of small Muscovy, which was afraid of the conquest of its lands by the State of Lithuania. It was the horde that destroyed the Lithuanian state and the Commonwealth, strengthening the influence of Russia and expanding its possessions, after which the great Kiev was forced to bow to little Muscovy.
    1. sib.ataman
      sib.ataman 5 March 2018 16: 05
      +3
      Dear, Kishat, of course, there is some truthful information in your comment, but do you yourself bother explaining how the "great Mongols" who created the "great" empire, which has existed for more than 300 years, left nothing material behind? And the modern Mongols, who are still in the early twentieth century. lived almost in the Stone Age, and for the entire twentieth century. their civilization barely advanced thanks to the USSR, especially those who live in the steppe. But Russia and the Russians, no matter how much they try to plunge into deep ignorance, stubbornly continue to be one of the most advanced on earth. One, won’t, only a report of GDP for 2 hours popularly explained to the whole world that they were all resting!
      1. andrew42
        andrew42 16 July 2018 16: 35
        0
        Here the situation will be even worse. It is worth recalling that quite a lot of artifacts of household items, monuments and even poetic legends are attributed by official science to the Western and Eastern Turkic Khaganates of the 6th-7th centuries A.D. That is, the ancient Türks nevertheless left a fairly distinct cultural heritage, but the “conquerors of the Universe” of 11-12 centuries - by zeros. Like they never were.
        1. co-creator
          co-creator 24 July 2018 12: 12
          0
          Quote: andrew42
          Here the situation will be even worse.

          You have cereal in your head. Türk is a linguistic group, not a race. There are Mongoloids Yakuts and Tatars (Bulgars) Europioids.
          Nobody argues that the Türks left an inheritance only with the Mongol empire here? Where is her legacy? Even among the Sumerians, it remains.
          Saying that the residence of Uzbeks, Yakuts, Altai and others confirms the existence of the Mongol Empire is simply ridiculous.
    2. Net
      Net 5 March 2018 16: 14
      +2
      "trying to impose a ridiculous theory about the allegedly non-existence of the Mongol invasion, motivating by the fact that there were no Mongoloids in Russia, and then Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Kalmyks, Buryats, Tuvans, Yakuts, Khakases, Altays, etc., how the Yenisei Did the Kyrgyz from Baikal and the Yenisei migrate to Kyrgyzstan? "

      In history, a very simple and real explanation for the appearance of these peoples in Russia. But these nations will be offended. In Russia, you can offend only Russian. Especially after the church, German and Jewish coups. Therefore, they are silent about the truth. They came up with a "Mongolian" invasion.
    3. co-creator
      co-creator 7 March 2018 12: 28
      +1
      Quote: kishat
      and not little Muscovy, which was afraid of the conquest of its lands by the Lithuanian state.

      Did you come up with it yourself?
      Quote: kishat
      And it was from the Horde that the history of Great Russia began

      Of course . The Horde ensured the safety of the Volga Trade Route, and this allowed Vladimir Russia to become a monopolist in west-east trade. In fact, Moscow rose for the same reasons why Kiev rose.
      Quote: kishat
      It was the horde that destroyed the Lithuanian state and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, strengthening the influence of Russia and expanding its possessions, after which the great Kiev was forced to bow to little Muscovy.

      Write nonsense. You at least look at cards. After the occupation of Constantinople by the crusaders, Kiev became a provincial city, since the trade route from the Varangians to the Greeks was canceled. There is no money, no squad. If the north-eastern Russia recovered in a swoop after the Horde’s campaigns, then Kiev went dead because there was nothing to restore it.
      Quote: kishat
      Why didn’t the Russians become Mongoloid? Firstly, the Mongol tribes were in a minority the main backbone of the Horde was the Bulgars, Khazars, Ugors, Pechenegs, Kipchaks, Dugars, etc., that is, the local peoples who lived with the Rus before the arrival of the Mongol.

      The next version, probably sotoya)) Guys, well, you do not get a stone flower, it does not. Resign yourself to the fact that the Russians did not come into contact with the Mongols and various Turks from the word at all. The contact was only in the border area and it was not significant. Therefore, Russian practitioners do not have Turkic DNA, and generally Mongolian. Now look at the DNA of the Germans, Bulgarians, Italians whose lands the invaders constantly roamed for hundreds of years and everything will become clear.
  30. Operator
    Operator 5 March 2018 17: 09
    +2
    How much can Samsonov’s Russophobic nonsense, which belittles the deed of our ancestors, at the cost of their lives protect our people and all of Europe from the aggression of the wild Asian nomads, the Mongoloids, be posted on VO?

    Especially delusional allegations of the Russophobic author about the "Europoids" in the face of the Tatars and Bashkirs - Samsonov, surely, will come from them (like every day during shaving he looks in the mirror at his slanting flat physiognomy so that his eyes become blurry) laughing

    The author is completely ignorant of ethnogenesis that the Russians have the dominant haplogroup R1a, while the Tatars have the Yakut N1 with a large admixture of the Mongol C2, and the Bashkirs have the R1b again with a large admixture of the Mongol C2.

    Where is R1a, and where is N1, R1b and C2 - is that at least clear?

    And yes: there is nothing to attract the Semites to the Russians - Scythians, Sarmatians and Saks, carriers of the dominant haplogroup J2. If 3,5 thousands of years ago, our blood relatives of the aria (minor R1a) walked along it with a skating rink, this does not mean that the golem Semites should be recorded in the ancestors of the Russians.
    1. co-creator
      co-creator 5 March 2018 17: 52
      +2
      Quote: Operator
      while the Tatars have the Yakut N1 with a large admixture of Mongolian C2, and

      Bullshit.
      1. Operator
        Operator 5 March 2018 17: 57
        +1
        Tatars, Yakuts and Tuvans - blood brothers forever laughing

        1. co-creator
          co-creator 5 March 2018 18: 38
          +1
          Where is the greatest admixture of the Mongol?
          1. Operator
            Operator 5 March 2018 18: 49
            0
            5,7% С2 among Tatars is greater than 1% С2 among Russians, however.

            But these are seeds (just a confirmation of the cultural and linguistic assimilation of the Tatars by the Mongols, nothing more), the main thing is that the Tatars look like their blood relatives - Yakuts (90% N1).
            1. co-creator
              co-creator 5 March 2018 19: 03
              +1
              Quote: Operator
              5,7% С2 among Tatars is greater than 1% С2 among Russians, however.

              Russians do not have Mongolian DNA at all. These are not my words, but Balanovsky https://www.nnov.kp.ru/daily/24065/305831/
              Quote: Operator
              But these are seeds (just a confirmation of the cultural and linguistic assimilation of the Tatars by the Mongols, nothing more), the main thing is that the Tatars look like their blood relatives - Yakuts

              You probably only saw the Tatars in the pictures. They are very different and most europioids call themselves Bulgars (like Finnish Suomi for example).
              If the language of the Tatars is not Turkic, then Russian is not Slavic. By culture, these are completely different peoples, since our Tatars were never nomads.
              The Mongoloid Tatars are the descendants of the Mongoloids who came from Central Asia.
              1. Operator
                Operator 5 March 2018 19: 20
                0
                The Tatars themselves may even be called Bulgarians, but as they say (though about another nation): “they will beat not according to the passport, but according to ...” (C)

                In my life I have not seen a single Euro-Tatar - either with slanting eyes or with a flat face, or with both.
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator 6 March 2018 00: 34
                  0
                  Quote: Operator
                  In my life I have not seen a single Euro-Tatar - either with slanting eyes or with a flat face, or with both.

                  What are you? Do you know Zagitov the champion of the Olympics? Shakurov artist, Shakhnozarov, Marat Basharov. In the end, take a trip to Kazan or Nizhny Novgorod.
                  Quote: Operator
                  The Tatars themselves may even be called Bulgarians, but as they say (though about another nation): “they will beat not according to the passport, but according to ...” (C)

                  It just says that the Tatars are heterogeneous. There are Bulgars, and there are Tatars.
                  1. Operator
                    Operator 6 March 2018 08: 13
                    0
                    Naturally, among the Tatars, as an exception, there are isolated representatives with an almost Europoid appearance, and here the main word is almost. For example, Zagitova is a typical Mongoloid with an oblique section of the eyes.
                    And Karen Shakhnazarov is an Armenian with eyes on the roll out, however.

                    Regardless of our discussion with you, among the natural Tatars (with the ancestors of the Yakuts) there is not a single Bulgar.
                    The descendants of the Bulgars are exclusively Bashkirs, whose ancestors were the Celts, assimilated by the Mongols in Asia. The blood relatives of the Bashkir-Bulgars are part of the Bulgarians who migrated with Khan Asparuh from the Volga to the Balkans in the 1 millennium AD and mixed with the local Hamites / Slavs.
                    1. co-creator
                      co-creator 7 March 2018 12: 14
                      +2
                      Quote: Operator
                      Naturally, among the Tatars, as an exception, there are isolated representatives with an almost Europoid appearance, and here the main word is almost. For example, Zagitova is a typical Mongoloid with an oblique cut of eyes.

                      At least half of the Tatars are Europioids. Where did you see slanted eyes near Zagitova? Yes, she is not a Slav, but for a German, for example, she is a pure European.

                      Quote: Operator
                      Regardless of our discussion with you, among the natural Tatars (with the ancestors of the Yakuts) there is not a single Bulgar.

                      Well, today the Tatars are all who speak the Volga Tatar language. It’s just that the Europoids are aborigines, and the Mongoloids, the descendants of the newcomer Turkic tribes who assimilated or assimilated the locals, did not go into such details.
                      Quote: Operator
                      The descendants of the Bulgars are exclusively Bashkirs,

                      Apparently this is not so, since some of the Tatars still self-name themselves in the Tatar language "Bulgars".
                      1. Operator
                        Operator 7 March 2018 15: 43
                        +1
                        Your eye is blurred laughing


                        Since the end of the last ice age, there have been only one aboriginal people in Eastern Europe - R1a carriers. All the rest (I, R1b, G, J2, N1, N2, etc.) are aliens. For example, relatives of the Yakuts of N1 crossed the Ural ridge only 3500 years ago, while the arias of R1a have lived here for 8500 years.

                        Who knows what they call themselves - for example, Ossetians (carriers of the Caucasian G) persistently call themselves descendants of the Alans (carriers of the Semitic J2), and a huge number of Jews in the USSR wrote themselves down to the Russian passport before 1992 (from which the anecdote quoted above was born) .
                        You can’t fool a DNA test.
                    2. kishat
                      kishat 7 March 2018 16: 06
                      0
                      The descendants of the Bulgars are exclusively Bashkirs, whose ancestors were the Celts, assimilated by the Mongols in Asia. - I have not heard such bullshit. Bashkirs are pure Türks with the Mongols, they encountered only when they came to the Urals. Bulgars are descendants of the Huns (a mixture of Ogurs with Europeans). Ogurs they are Oguzes are the progenitors of All Türks and Mongols. Therefore, the Bulgars look similar to the Europeans, then they mixed with the Mongols, Bashkirs and Kipchaks, adopting their language like the rest of the Türks except Ugor.
                      1. Operator
                        Operator 7 March 2018 16: 19
                        0
                        Tied up with fantasies, be guided by DNA tests.
                    3. ver_
                      ver_ 18 May 2018 05: 50
                      0
                      ... The Mongols appeared only in 1920 .. Affectionate You are ours .. Even if you look at the wiki .. Ulyanov = Blank * took a bite * a bite from China and called Mongolia (Mongolia) ...
                2. andrew42
                  andrew42 23 March 2018 18: 02
                  0
                  Well, I have one of the 4 great-grandfathers considered himself a Bulgarian. Native with. Islyaykino Chistopol County. He moved to Izhevsk after a demobilization in the 30s. He built a log-house (!) 2-storey house with extensive entrance halls. Now they’ve just taken away for demolition. I can give a verbal portrait: thin, tall, in youth no less than 178 cm, hair dark brown, straight. eyes are green, nose is long. straight, with a slight "duck", the ears are large. with a slightly elongated lobe, Mukhlisullah was named at birth. Here is the Kama Bulgarian. Please love and respect. (Yes, by the way, the rest of my great-grandfathers are Muscovites and Vologda. My kind is from under Klin. So for the Bulgarians, there is no reason to harness me beyond measure).
              2. Separ
                Separ 25 March 2018 12: 58
                0
                Siberian (Tyumen)
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator 25 March 2018 14: 35
                  0
                  Quote: Separ
                  Siberian (Tyumen)

                  Siberian Tatars are Turks who came from Central Asia.
    2. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 6 March 2018 19: 32
      +3
      History in the language of the Klesovites:
      backward C2 200 years trashed and took to give the progressive R1a laughing
      And the insidious and vile R1b, under the control of the cunning J2, weave intrigues and intrigues against the brave
      and straightforward R1a, which retarded C2 laughing
      1. Operator
        Operator 6 March 2018 20: 51
        0
        3 million purebred C2 driven into a reservation (Mongolia), where they lead a nomadic lifestyle.

        Thoroughbred J2 survived only in Chechnya and Ingushetia (estimate the number and level of cultural development yourself).

        The number of purebred R1a carriers in India, Russia, Iran and Europe is about 500 million people.

        And from 1 of March this year R1a carriers residing in Russia specifically mock at the tail and mane of 7 billion inhabitants of the Earth (including R1b) - see Sarmat, Vanguard, Dagger and Arctic fox laughing
  31. Yak28
    Yak28 5 March 2018 18: 23
    +1
    The story is written for the sake of and under the dictation of a particular authority, therefore the truth of what is happening at one time or another is unknown. In 50-100 years, the events of the 90s or today will be distorted beyond recognition despite the presence of TV, or maybe vice versa, depending on who will be in power
  32. Atenaia
    Atenaia 5 March 2018 19: 02
    +2
    Rare Nonsense.
  33. The comment was deleted.
  34. Ua3qhp
    Ua3qhp 5 March 2018 21: 14
    0
    Vague doubts torment me, but not the princes of Moscow and Novgorod, it was an invasion, followed by a sharp rise in Moscow. And then, to conceal these unsightly affairs, they came up with a version about the 300 year old yoke.
  35. co-creator
    co-creator 5 March 2018 23: 56
    +1
    Quote: HanTengri
    Quotation: blooded man
    What is the essence of the issue?
    Dumb, sir?
    Quotation: blooded man
    The literal translation is the eastern khan.
    "Literal translation" from what language?
    Quotation: blooded man
    Whose word is Genghis Khan?

    Here you are now and tell us! laughing After all, you know his "literal translation" - "eastern khan" => you know from what language you translated this word! ... lol Is it logical

    It is logical of course. Only I didn’t understand anything. Ask for a translation of the Mongolian name from what language is made?
  36. kishat
    kishat 6 March 2018 05: 46
    +1
    Quote: sib.ataman
    Dear, Kishat, of course, there is some truthful information in your comment, but do you yourself bother explaining how the "great Mongols" who created the "great" empire, which has existed for more than 300 years, left nothing material behind? And the modern Mongols, who are still in the early twentieth century. lived almost in the Stone Age, and for the entire twentieth century. their civilization barely advanced thanks to the USSR, especially those who live in the steppe. But Russia and the Russians, no matter how much they try to plunge into deep ignorance, stubbornly continue to be one of the most advanced on earth. One, won’t, only a report of GDP for 2 hours popularly explained to the whole world that they were all resting!

    Firstly, if we venture into the earlier origin of the Türkic and Mongolian peoples, then both came from the Ogur (Oguz) tribes, then there was no division, which is why they are called proto-Türks and protomongols. Ogurs (Oguzes) are the most ancient indigenous people traces of their life on the territory of Russia 4-5 thousand years. They were very developed for their time weapons, cattle breeding, runic writing as early as the 1st centuries BC. The Ogurs began resettlement, having united with the Huns, they went to the Caucasus where they conquered the Skifs (Alans) and Saramatov, based in the North of the Caucasus, they ousted the Arameans and founded Dagestan from where they raided Western Europe, conquering the Scandinavians (Germans, Gotov, etc.). Then they left the Caucasus and went to the West, leaving the Avars in the Caucasus for themselves. Another part of the Ogurs went east towards Baikal and Altai. Later, with the change of dialect, they were called Oguzes. Those who went to the West created the Empire of the Huns by interfering with their vassals, they began to divide into new peoples of the Fino-Ugors of the West, Bulgar, Khazar, Pechenegov, Avar, etc. As a result of the Turkic-European unions, Azerbaijanis, Turks took place, Tajikistan, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan were founded. The Huns adopted Aramaic writing and some crafts from the Europeans. Therefore, the most developed peoples were the Bulgars and the Fino-Ugric peoples, unlike the young underdeveloped Slavic tribes who did not have modern weapons and knowledge of military strategy, writing, crafts were notable, therefore the Western Slavs took over the experience from the Europeans and the East from the descendants of the Huns. The eastern brothers of the Western Huns were less developed, therefore, the more developed commander Genghis Khan seized power and his ancestors also went on campaigns with the Huns, so he was mixed blood and had red hair and came from the same tribe as Attila. When Genghis Khaan conquered China, taking from them the very best, including, and gunpowder. Now compare the well-coordinated army with the best weapons and gunpowder used to intimidate and distract maneuvers and fragmented Slavic principalities armed with axes and clubs. And I will answer the question of development with a simple example of the once developed Egypt, Greece, and the once wild barbarians of the Germans and the Swedes, now everything is the other way around.
  37. ver_
    ver_ 6 March 2018 07: 08
    +1
    Quote: Net
    "trying to impose a ridiculous theory about the allegedly non-existence of the Mongol invasion, motivating by the fact that there were no Mongoloids in Russia, and then Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Kalmyks, Buryats, Tuvans, Yakuts, Khakases, Altays, etc., how the Yenisei Did the Kyrgyz from Baikal and the Yenisei migrate to Kyrgyzstan? "

    In history, a very simple and real explanation for the appearance of these peoples in Russia. But these nations will be offended. In Russia, you can offend only Russian. Especially after the church, German and Jewish coups. Therefore, they are silent about the truth. They came up with a "Mongolian" invasion.

    .. well, it’s very, of course, difficult to type in the search the date of foundation of Mongolia (respectively the nation and nationality) - (beginning of the 20th century).
    And then manage to * transfer * these same Mongols from the 2nd century to the 13th century ..
    Only * God-chosen * Mr. Ulyanov = Lenin = Blanca were honored with such a * feat *.
    And the descendants of these * figures * with foam at the mouth prove the unprovable .. Humanities - well, what to take from you okromya wool shred ..
    1. Net
      Net 6 March 2018 16: 20
      0
      And to take a magnifying glass or put on glasses and see what the first part of the message is in quotation marks, and quoted from another message, not?
  38. reservist
    reservist 6 March 2018 19: 34
    0
    Quote: merlin
    ... tribute was paid by Catherine II

    From article VIII of the Treaty of Constantinople with the Ottoman Empire, concluded as a result of the Azov campaigns of Peter I on July 14, 1700:
    “And later The State of Moscow is an autocratic and free State, there is a summer residence, which until now has been given to the Crimean Khan and the Crimean Tatars, either past or now, henceforth, it should not from His priestly Tsarskogo Majesty the Muscovites were given, neither from his heirs: but also the Crimean Khans and Crimeans and other Tatar peoples henceforth neither giving by petition nor any other reason, or by cover, contrary to the world that they create, but peace and quiet. ”


    Perhaps when Catherine still captured from the Krymchaks captured and stolen, well, due to the treasury and much later, in the Caucasian War, prisoners were bought ...
  39. reservist
    reservist 6 March 2018 19: 49
    0
    Quote: merlin
    Indeed, what happened at the beginning of the 13th century?

    We are discussing two versions:
    1) the invasion of the Horde
    2) the cessation of the functioning of the trade route from the Varangians to the Greeks

    although it is not clear why one was not a consequence of the other ...
    It’s unlikely that Batu came to Russia because of the decline in trade between Constantinople and the future Hanseatic League, rather the opposite ...
    1. co-creator
      co-creator 6 March 2018 23: 48
      +1
      Quote: reservist
      although it is not clear why one was not a consequence of the other ...

      Well, probably because the path from the Varangians to the Greeks never recovered, and for example, the Volga way worked perfectly with the horde.
      Quote: reservist
      It’s unlikely that Batu came to Russia because of the decline in trade between Constantinople and the future Hanseatic League, rather the opposite ...

      Well, if you approach from this point of view, then Batu came to become a monopolist in the trade of the east and the west and for this he destroyed all other trade routes. If he came to have gisheft from the Dnieper trade route, then he would support him on the contrary, would place part of the troops there on an ongoing basis.
  40. reservist
    reservist 6 March 2018 20: 16
    0
    Quotation: blooded man
    The tax was the same, tithing, which is up to the Mongols, that at the Mongols.

    show the place in Russian Truth, where is written about tithing?
    and the most important fact - before Batu, taxes were spent "on the spot", and did not go to the Horde

    Moscow rose to the west in the trade of oriental goods. Simply put, Moscow received a label saddled the Volga Trade Route.

    and this too
    1. co-creator
      co-creator 7 March 2018 00: 00
      +1
      Quote: reservist
      show the place in Russian Truth, where is written about tithing?

      How much is written there?
      Quote: reservist
      and the most important fact - before Batu, taxes were spent "on the spot", and did not go to the Horde

      It means that? The servants will pay more taxes. Well, to hide the extra population from the Horde account is not a problem at all in those days. All the talk that they say the Mongols all recounted polls for children.
      Quote: reservist
      and this too

      Not too, but on this one. In other ways, it was impossible to earn so much and so much.
      1. reservist
        reservist 12 March 2018 11: 39
        0
        Quotation: blooded man
        How much is written there?

        try to understand for yourself, I did not master ...
        Before the Horde, the "tax system" in Russia was different, more "confused"
        The Horde people radically “simplified” it - they introduced tithing

        It means that? People will pay more taxes

        an increase in tax collections usually reduces their collection ...
        Yes, and the topic was not about how much they paid, but where the paid went ...

        Not too, but on this one. In other ways, it was impossible to earn so much and so much.

        why didn’t they work for almost a hundred years before the Horde?
        There were several reasons for the elevation of the Moscow principality - both location on trade routes, and “commissions” for collecting tribute from almost all of Russia to the Horde, and elimination of competitors (the same Principality of Tver was also not aloof from trade routes)
        1. co-creator
          co-creator 12 March 2018 16: 43
          +1
          Quote: reservist
          try to understand for yourself, I did not master ...

          Clearly understood. Documents. In what year did the Horde introduce a new tax system?


          Quote: reservist
          an increase in tax collections usually reduces their collection ...
          and the topic was not about how much they paid, but where did the paid go

          Well, that is, the princes were rogues, right? The question is what kind of shisha did they invite people to their principalities?

          Well, judging by what Russia was after 300 years and what the Horde represented money, the Horde got a penny.



          Quote: reservist
          why didn’t they work for almost a hundred years before the Horde?

          Who didn’t earn?
          Quote: reservist
          There were several reasons for the elevation of the Moscow principality - both location on trade routes, and “commissions” for collecting tribute from almost all of Russia to the Horde, and elimination of competitors (the same Principality of Tver was also not aloof from trade routes)

          The reason is one trade, the rest is nothing. No trade, no money. This has always been the case in the Middle Ages and today, too, only the scheme has changed a little.
          There was a way FROM VARYAG TO GREECE Kiev was rich, the Crusaders came and this way disappeared and Kiev went dead. Now the main trade route has become EAST IN VARYAGI. The Horde ensured the safety of this route from the east to the borders of Russia.
          1. reservist
            reservist 12 March 2018 18: 15
            0
            Quotation: blooded man

            Clearly understood. Documents. In what year did the Horde introduce a new tax system?

            you can probably find it in the collection of Khan's labels ...

            Well, that is, the princes were rogues, right?

            the local princely "administration" had to share with the central Horde ...
            there is a difference with those times when all taxes remained in Russia

            Well, judging by what Russia was after 300 years and what the Horde represented money, the Horde got a penny.

            you ask Ivan Kalita how much it came to the Horde ...
            For 300 years, the Golden Horde managed to fall apart into khanates, and most of Russia gathered under the Moscow kingdom


            ... the main trade route has become EAST IN VARYAGI

            but was Tver not on this path?
            1. co-creator
              co-creator 13 March 2018 00: 16
              +1
              Quote: reservist
              you can probably find it in the collection of Khan's labels ...

              Give me a link.
              Quote: reservist
              the local princely "administration" had to share with the central Horde ...

              Peter the first had to share with the central Crimean authorities.
              Quote: reservist
              there is a difference with those times when all taxes remained in Russia

              This almost never happened. Always had to pay nomads dibo "exit" or redemption for people.

              Quote: reservist
              you ask Ivan Kalita how much it came to the Horde ...

              How to ask? There are no documents. The chronicle is not a document.

              Quote: reservist
              For 300 years, the Golden Horde managed to fall apart into khanates, and most of Russia gathered under the Moscow kingdom

              That's right, some had a profit, while others had a loss. There was nothing left of the Horde, no cities, no crafts, no architecture, no literature.
              Quote: reservist
              but was Tver not on this path?

              Of course on it, did I say the opposite? In fact, the civil, or rather feudal war ended in victory for the Moscow princes. If Kalita were the Prince of Tver, then most likely Tver would unite Russia.
              1. reservist
                reservist 13 March 2018 13: 06
                0
                Quotation: blooded man
                Quote: reservist
                you can probably find it in the collection of Khan's labels ...
                Give me a link.

                Collection of Khan labels to Russian metropolitans. Source analysis of the Golden Horde documents
                Author Arkady Grigoriev
                ISBN 5-288-02581-9

                Quote: reservist
                the local princely "administration" had to share with the central Horde ...
                Peter the first had to share with the central Crimean authorities.

                I repeat that under Peter the Krymchaks stopped paying tribute
                above has already cited an extract from the Treaty of Constantinople

                Quote: reservist
                there is a difference with those times when all taxes remained in Russia
                This almost never happened. Always had to pay nomads dibo "exit" or redemption for people.
                Quote: reservist
                you ask Ivan Kalita how much it came to the Horde ...
                How to ask? There are no documents. The chronicle is not a document.

                from wikipedia:
                Under Ivan Kalit in the Moscow Kremlin, the white-stone Assumption Cathedral, the Cathedral of the Savior on Bor, the Archangel Cathedral, the Church of St. John Climacus and the new oak Moscow Kremlin were built.

                Well, not for free, but all this was built ...

                Quote: reservist
                For 300 years, the Golden Horde managed to fall apart into khanates, and most of Russia gathered under the Moscow kingdom
                That's right, some had a profit, while others had a loss. There is nothing left of the Horde

                nothing was left of the Japanese on Sakhalin, but this does not mean that they were not there in the last century ...
                no cities, no crafts, no architecture, no literature.

                all this was and remains among the peoples conquered by the Horde peoples

                Let's remember what remains of the empire of Alexander the Great ...

                Quote: reservist
                but was Tver not on this path?
                Of course on it, did I say the opposite? In fact, the civil, or rather feudal war ended in victory for the Moscow princes. If Kalita were the Prince of Tver, then most likely Tver would unite Russia.

                the confrontation of the Tver and Moscow principalities only under Ivan III ended ...
                from Ivan Kalita to Ivan III, there were a lot of things between the princes of Moscow and Tver, if you shoot a localized version of the “Game of Thrones”, then for sure it’s enough for several seasons ...
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator 13 March 2018 14: 23
                  +1
                  Quote: reservist
                  Collection of Khan labels to Russian metropolitans.

                  Do you know who the metropolitans are? You give the right labels from the Horde to the Princes.

                  Quote: reservist
                  I repeat that under Peter the Krymchaks stopped paying tribute

                  I repeat Pert First paid tribute to the Crimeans. Try to refute.

                  Quote: reservist
                  above has already cited an extract from the Treaty of Constantinople

                  Too many comments above to find this excerpt.
                  Quote: reservist
                  Well, not for free, but all this was built ...

                  So how much did the Horde pay? You quote me what I write about, Kalita under the Horde received a large income for which he developed his principality.
                  Quote: reservist
                  nothing was left of the Japanese on Sakhalin, but this does not mean that they were not there in the last century ...

                  And what was there to stay? There are military facilities, but on civilian they didn’t build anything special. The Koreans, by the way, remained who the Japanese sent there. Generally a strange comparison.
                  Quote: reservist
                  Let's remember what remains of the empire of Alexander the Great ...

                  Let's .
                  Quote: reservist
                  the confrontation of the Tver and Moscow principalities only under Ivan III ended ...

                  Of course, I just indicated when it all started. Kalita and his descendants were smarter than his relatives from Tver.
                  1. reservist
                    reservist 13 March 2018 17: 31
                    0
                    Quotation: blooded man
                    Quote: reservist
                    Collection of Khan labels to Russian metropolitans.
                    Do you know who the metropolitans are? You give the right labels from the Horde to the Princes.

                    yeah, and the keys to the apartment where the money is ...;)
                    princely labels most likely after liberation from the Horde were destroyed ... after all, "compromising" after all ...
                    Metropolitan labels should list what specific taxes the church was exempted from ...


                    Quote: reservist
                    I repeat that under Peter the Krymchaks stopped paying tribute
                    I repeat Pert First paid tribute to the Crimeans. Try to refute.
                    Quote: reservist
                    above has already cited an extract from the Treaty of Constantinople
                    Too many comments above to find this excerpt.

                    Well, not very much ...
                    And later The State of Moscow is an autocratic and free State, there is a summer residence, which until now has been given to the Crimean Khan and Crimean Tatars, either past or now, henceforth, from His priestly Tsarskago Majesty Moscow, neither from his heirs: but also the Crimean Khans and Crimeans and other Tatar peoples henceforth neither giving by petition nor any other reason, or by cover, the contrary that they will create to the world, but peace and quiet


                    ... Kalita under the Horde received a large income for which he developed his principality.

                    we have a dispute about the source of income ...
                    why before Ivan Kalita the income of the princes of Moscow was more modest?

                    Quote: reservist
                    nothing was left of the Japanese on Sakhalin, but this does not mean that they were not there in the last century ...
                    And what was there to stay? There are military facilities, but on civilian they didn’t build anything special.

                    want to say that there was no civilian population under the Japanese?
                    built for civilians, only of wood ...

                    Quote: reservist
                    Let's remember what remains of the empire of Alexander the Great ...
                    Let's .

                    Well, for example, in Alexandria of Egypt the Pompeev’s column ... built by the Romans ...
                    1. co-creator
                      co-creator 13 March 2018 18: 37
                      +1
                      Quote: reservist
                      yeah, and the keys to the apartment where the money is ...;)

                      No, better money right away.
                      Quote: reservist
                      princely labels most likely after liberation from the Horde were destroyed ... after all, "compromising" after all ...

                      Labels mean compromising, but the annals are not compromising. Curious.
                      Quote: reservist
                      Metropolitan labels should list what specific taxes the church was exempted from ...

                      Church to the TAXES of princes what relation has?

                      Quote: reservist
                      Well, not very much ...

                      ABOUT Konstantinopol you wrote to me? If so, I'll look.
                      Quote: reservist
                      but also the Crimean Khans and Crimeans and other Tatar peoples henceforth neither giving a petition by any other

                      What year? wink
                      Quote: reservist
                      why before Ivan Kalita the income of the princes of Moscow was more modest?

                      Because there was less trade. Too many who needed to pay to bring goods from the east to Russia, and it was very likely that they would be robbed. The Horde, having created the state, took control of this trade route and trade began.
                      Here is an example. There are original labels of Tokhtamysh to Jagail. Please note that there are 6 translations of ONE text and they are all DIFFERENT !!!! One tribute, another tax
                      etc. That is, translators cannot translate plain text in about the same way, it's just amazing. I will give you the two most quoted translations. In short, Tokhtamysh sends (and does not call Jagiello to himself) ambassadors to Jagail. In the first half of the label he describes how he defeated his enemies of the local Murza, how he again became the main one. In the second part, he writes that now Jagiello can collect money and send him to the treasury, as well as send merchants for trade who are now provided with security. In short, it turns out Jagiello now has to pay Toktamysh for trade. If you turn on your head a little and think about why different translations, it will become absolutely clear that translators translated this label as they themselves understood what IGO is. Hence, one tribute, another tax, etc.
                      https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Тохтамыш#.D0.AF.D1.
                      80.D0.BB.D1.8B.D0.BA.D0.B8_.D1.85.D0.B0.D0.BD.D0.
                      B0_.D0.A2.D0.BE.D0.BA.D1.82.D0.B0.D0.BC.D1.8B.D1.
                      88.D0.B0

                      Now you understand why there are some incomes before the Horde, and others when the Horde?
                      Quote: reservist
                      want to say that there was no civilian population under the Japanese?
                      built for civilians, only of wood ...

                      It was a little, but very few. Sakhalin, in fact, it was a military base and still there they will show you the Japanese airfield, border guards, etc.
                      Quote: reservist
                      Well, for example, in Alexandria of Egypt the Pompeev’s column ... built by the Romans ...

                      So what does it mean?
                      1. reservist
                        reservist 13 March 2018 18: 54
                        0
                        Quotation: blooded man
                        Quote: reservist
                        but also the Crimean Khans and Crimeans and other Tatar peoples henceforth neither giving a petition by any other
                        What year?

                        Treaty of Constantinople, July 14, 1700

                        Quote: reservist
                        Well, for example, in Alexandria of Egypt the Pompeev’s column ... built by the Romans ...
                        So what does it mean?

                        that if the Romans didn’t need Alexandria of Egypt, it’s not a fact that now at least something is left of it ...
  41. tlauicol
    tlauicol 7 March 2018 12: 55
    0
    co-creator,
    single raid? Oh well.
    But should it be annual, for the prevention of timely payment?
    you pay tribute - well done! Tent harness when not paid, and not just
    Napoleon - what’s the example? there is a temporary abyss between them, and the economic causes of the war are different. Did he kill the king, burn Peter and impose a state tribute? Promising to burn the capital every time for non-payment? or planted a pleasing henchman, handing a label, and threatening to turn his neck, if that?
    1. co-creator
      co-creator 7 March 2018 14: 46
      +1
      Quote: Tlauicol
      single raid? Oh well.
      But should it be annual, for the prevention of timely payment?
      you pay tribute - well done! Tent harness when not paid, and not just

      Not every year, there must be a reaction to action. A Moscow prince passed and annexed Tver, we send a couple of tumens and restore everything as it was. Then you are overlord, and Moscow and Tver princes are vassals. If you simply collect tribute, then you are no more than a regular retailer or collect indemnities for the military. Russia paid a lot to whom from the Khazars to the Crimean Tatars. Why is there a Crimean, Lenin paid a heavy tribute to the Germans. Germany only paid tribute to Europe for WWII just a couple of years ago.
      Quote: Tlauicol
      Napoleon - what’s the example? there is a temporary abyss between them, and the economic causes of the war are different. Did he kill the king, burn Peter and impose a state tribute? Promising to burn the capital every time for non-payment? or planted a pleasing henchman, handing a label, and threatening to turn his neck, if that?

      And Napoleon? Despite the fact that he created a real empire and it acted like an empire. The vassal must be politically subordinate to the metropolis, if he does not, then punishment follows. Napoleon won the war against Alexander and forced him to sign the Tilsit world where political conditions were prescribed, specifically not to trade with England. It was one hundred times worse for RI than paying any tribute, which is why we actually fulfilled THIS CONDITION. As soon as Napoleon understood this, he immediately decided to punish the vassal. Another thing. that nothing came of it.
      Your shortcut is fiction, as are the promises to burn as we found out. The principality of Moscow near by the horde with the help of money that was earned with the help of an oder on the Volga trade route created a unified Russian state and when it decided that an intermediary (horde) was not needed it got rid of it. All this did not happen in the distant Horde colony, but in the neighboring type of “vassals”.
      1. tlauicol
        tlauicol 7 March 2018 15: 58
        +1
        It’s good that you distinguish between the concepts of empire and horde. The truth is you forget that the Moscow principality created the Russian state much later than the collapse of the empire, when the hordes themselves were crushed to pieces
        1. co-creator
          co-creator 7 March 2018 17: 18
          +1
          Quote: Tlauicol
          It’s good that you distinguish between the concepts of empire and horde.

          Horde is the same empire if it includes the conquered principalities and it has vassals.
          Quote: Tlauicol
          The truth is you forget that the Moscow principality created the Russian state much later than the collapse of the empire, when the hordes themselves were crushed to pieces

          By this you only confirm that there was no vassality since the horde paid tribute to the stop.
          Here the most important question is why the princes personally went to the Horde, for this there are ambassadors or brothers for example.
          1. reservist
            reservist 12 March 2018 18: 19
            0
            Quotation: blooded man
            ... why did the princes personally go to the Horde

            for labels to reign
            1. co-creator
              co-creator 13 March 2018 00: 05
              +1
              You can see them somewhere, about ten pieces, at least naturally originals. Give a reference.
              1. reservist
                reservist 13 March 2018 12: 20
                0
                Have you tried to go to the History Museum?
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator 13 March 2018 14: 25
                  +1
                  You give me the original labels and their list.
                  1. reservist
                    reservist 13 March 2018 18: 47
                    0
                    go ... to the museum
                    1. co-creator
                      co-creator 13 March 2018 18: 52
                      +2
                      Not a single museum has them. There are only a few labels from khans to princes, and many consider them to be fakes. In the remaining labels there is generally not a single word about the fact that the khan will appoint such and such a prince to reign. I gave you an example of a shortcut to Jagiel, please be kind and you will give examples. In fact, all known shortcuts are associated with trade and preferences.
  42. kishat
    kishat 7 March 2018 15: 23
    +1
    [quote = consensual]
    "The next version, probably sotoya)) Guys, well, a stone flower doesn’t come out of you, it doesn’t come out. Accept that the Russians didn’t come into contact with the Mongols and different Türks from the word at all. The contact was only in the border region and it was not significant"
    It’s not possible for you nationalists to confirm the ridiculous theories about purity of blood. Everyone knows that the Rus are the Ottoman Slavic-Scandinavians, even your Slavs recognize this (the Russian language is a mixture of Kipchak and Slavic). The Türks began to assimilate all Europeans from the Volga and the Caucasus to the Roman Empire starting from the first wave of resettlement. From the Huns to Temirlan, one Turkic cohanate succeeded another. And Russ is no exception or you fell from the moon? Ugors, Bulgars inhabited the land from the Urals to the Caucasus, long before the advent of the Rus, Khazars, Dugars, Pechenegs also coexisted, then Kipchaks (Polovtsians) came. Namely the Kipchak Khans called for the Princes of Rus to unite and go to battle in the Kalka against the Mongols, the Russian Princes overthrew each other with the help of the Turkic and Mongol allies and also repelled enemy attacks together, and despite the reign of the Horde Khans, no one infringed on the rights and power of the Russian Princes but on the contrary increased. He who denies the history of his people denies his existence. Peoples of Turkic-European origin Bulgars (Tatars), Bulgarians, Western Fino-Ugors including Hungarians, some Baltic peoples, Turks, Dagestanis, Azerbaijanis.
    1. co-creator
      co-creator 7 March 2018 17: 23
      +1
      Quote: kishat
      That you nationalists can not confirm the ridiculous theory of blood purity

      There is no purity of blood, but there is science and they cannot find any Mongolian genes.
      Quote: kishat
      Everyone knows that Rus

      Who's everyone? Surnames, passwords, appearances.
    2. reservist
      reservist 12 March 2018 18: 28
      +1
      Quote: kishat
      Russian is a mixture of Kipchak and Slavic

      tell, pls, what kind of "Slavic language" is and where did it come from ...
    3. Separ
      Separ 25 March 2018 13: 48
      0
      Only one country did not cover it - Ukraine ...
  43. reservist
    reservist 7 March 2018 16: 23
    +1
    Quote: merlin
    ... the decline occurred in all of Russia, including the lands to which the Mongols did not reach.

    Well, the Horde did not reach, for example, to Novgorod, but Novgorod also paid tribute to the Horde
  44. co-creator
    co-creator 7 March 2018 18: 01
    +1
    Quote: Operator
    Your eye is blurred laughing


    Since the end of the last ice age, there have been only one aboriginal people in Eastern Europe - R1a carriers. All the rest (I, R1b, G, J2, N1, N2, etc.) are aliens. For example, relatives of the Yakuts of N1 crossed the Ural ridge only 3500 years ago, while the arias of R1a have lived here for 8500 years.

    Who knows what they call themselves - for example, Ossetians (carriers of the Caucasian G) persistently call themselves descendants of the Alans (carriers of the Semitic J2), and a huge number of Jews in the USSR wrote themselves down to the Russian passport before 1992 (from which the anecdote quoted above was born) .
    You can’t fool a DNA test.

    Where did you see the Mongolian? Tyurochka is a European girl.
    Well, nationality and DNA are all different things. For example, Russians are not only Slavs, but also part of the Finno-Ugric peoples.
  45. saigon
    saigon 7 March 2018 18: 07
    0
    co-creator,
    You probably confuse the Mongols and the Türks, and from the time of the first Haganate, it was in the Türkic Haganate both the eastern and western khans. They have in general oh how curly khans were called as you like - the secondary khan of the rocky steppe. True, this is five hundred years before Chingiz))) If you are interested in the topic, read Gumilyov’s good reading.
    1. co-creator
      co-creator 7 March 2018 20: 07
      +1
      I translated Genghis Khan into Russian. If I'm wrong, tell me how to translate correctly and in what language this name is written.
      1. saigon
        saigon 8 March 2018 08: 20
        0
        So for information, the exact meaning of the thiul Chengiz Khan has not been established. But the name Genghis is associated with the meaning of strength, greatness, power, conclusion rather a great khan, a strong khan just not as not oriental
        1. co-creator
          co-creator 8 March 2018 11: 52
          0
          What language did they translate from? From Mongolian, Korean or from those that you listed?
          In google search it is clearly written "eastern" "great". Everyone can choose for himself. Although if the eastern is replaced by a great one, essentially nothing will change, each tribe and clan has its own grand duke.
          The fact that the name is connected with power, greatness and power does not interest me. The name Jura, for example, is associated with space.
          1. saigon
            saigon 8 March 2018 12: 44
            0
            I don’t really trust google a lot of stupid things.
            the meaning of the name Chingiz is greatness, power, power., in modern Turkic and Mongolian languages.
            Too lazy to look for the name of the east among the modern Mongols.
            1. saigon
              saigon 8 March 2018 12: 58
              0
              east in modern mongolian zuun
            2. co-creator
              co-creator 8 March 2018 16: 21
              +1
              Quote: saigon
              I don’t really trust google a lot of stupid things

              WELL GIVE A LINK where to translate correctly. Maybe some kind of dictionary. Because I did not come up with such a translation and not Wikipedia.

              Quote: saigon
              the meaning of the name Chingiz is greatness, power, power., in modern Turkic and Mongolian languages.

              Just like Jura is space, flight, stars in modern Russian, right?
              Although there is no point in arguing. Googled a little more, most of the sources still translate as "great" (by the way the word GREAT has many meanings senior, main, great and own greatness) and "strong". If you know Turkic and Mongolian languages ​​well, then I agree with your definition.
              Quote: saigon
              Too lazy to look for the name of the east among the modern Mongols.

              All the same, the translation of the name and the literal translation of the word EAST are two different things.
              1. saigon
                saigon 8 March 2018 16: 40
                0
                Well, the eastern khan will be spelled Zuun Khan, I don’t know the pronunciation, by the way the topic of languages ​​is very interesting about the east in Mongolian I learned from the Mongol and about the eastern khan. True, a man is not a linguist but an engineer, but I hope he knows his native language.
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator 8 March 2018 20: 46
                  0
                  Quote: saigon
                  By the way, the topic of languages ​​is very interesting about the east in Mongolian learned from the Mongol and about the khan of the east

                  I hope you do not deceive me, and of course I can’t not believe the Mongol. Was wrong, knowledge is power.
            3. nafanal
              nafanal 22 March 2018 21: 43
              0
              A similar term is in the language of Kuman. Verney was. Zingiz-Ocean Khan. The Greatest Great Cumans Dictionary was compiled by Dante
      2. Net
        Net 9 March 2018 06: 06
        0
        Nobody knows for sure. Two versions are preferred. 1. “Chinggis” as a pronunciation variant of the Central Asian word “Shygys” - Eastern. And since there were many states and khans east of the Russian Sea and the Caspian, they were all called "Genghis" - khans.
        2. The second version is related to the Russian translation. "rite" -order, hierarchy (for example, Peter 1 introduced the hierarchy of officials). "giz" - a derivative of koniz, prince, equestrian, "khan" - leader, chief. From here "Genghis Khan" - the head of the equestrian order - i.e. commander of the cavalry. As the main striking force of the Middle Ages. And since each nation had cavalry, especially the steppe peoples, each nation had a “Genghis Khan”.
  46. mkpda
    mkpda 7 March 2018 18: 23
    +3
    Lord! Stop breaking spears! If we take the classic story, we can easily make sure that we do not have reliable information about the 13th century. We cannot even deal with the Second World War in detail (I can imagine what will be written about the Second World War in 300 years!). The very appearance of Fomenko and Co. speaks of great problems with official history.
    As for this article, then everything is in a bunch. I think that you just need to be friends with common sense and see where the excavation data ends, and where the fantasies of historians begin. Unfortunately, the written sources of antiquity, for the most part, have been corrected (and not once) for the sake of someone's short-term interests, and those that retained the original information are written about things far from historical events.
  47. alatanas
    alatanas 7 March 2018 18: 24
    0
    In your opinion, it wasn’t yours, but in the year 1265 the invasion came to Bulgaria and Byzantium led by Nogai, described in great detail in the chronicles of those times. request
  48. co-creator
    co-creator 13 March 2018 19: 48
    +1
    reservist,
    Quote: reservist
    Quotation: blooded man
    Quote: reservist
    but also the Crimean Khans and Crimeans and other Tatar peoples henceforth neither giving a petition by any other
    What year?

    Treaty of Constantinople, July 14, 1700

    Quote: reservist
    Well, for example, in Alexandria of Egypt the Pompeev’s column ... built by the Romans ...
    So what does it mean?

    that if the Romans didn’t need Alexandria of Egypt, it’s not a fact that now at least something is left of it ...

    Even if we take the extreme figure, then Peter began to rule since 1698.

    If yes, if only ..... After the Greeks and the Romans, the heritage is higher than the roof, after Russia (although this is not an empire at all) the same thing and only from the Horde zero.
  49. kartalovkolya
    kartalovkolya 22 March 2018 07: 12
    +1
    The history of Russia in its current form is the "creation" of European, mostly German "guest workers" in the person of Milerov and Schletzer, to whom Peter-1 gave the Russian Academy of Sciences and who meanly used this to destroy real Russian history! And it was not for nothing that the great Mikhailo Vasilievich Lomonosov repeatedly beat these “scientists” for their fakes and for the destruction of the true annals of Russia! The West, which Russia taught to wash and “cope with its natural needs” not in any place, but in strictly designated places, could not accept the fact that Russia was more cultured and had a higher level in everything from moral to science!
  50. nafanal
    nafanal 22 March 2018 21: 36
    0
    I have a curious book. A Scythian story. The author is Andrei Lyzlov. Before the Petrine historian and writer. There is described the story of the conquest of Genghis-Tsyngis, leader of the Trans-Volga horde. These hordes were dofiga. .Origin surname. I turned out to be a flood of Lithuanian Tatar. And I’m being rubbed about some Mongols. According to one version, Genghis Khan is the title. Translated, Ocean Khan is not spoken from which language. Where the unwashed Mongols saw the ocean. But it seems like a similar term was used among the Cumans. A dictionary of the language of which was Dante