How the troops of Batu stormed Vladimir

780 years ago, 7 February 1238, the army of Batu stormed took the capital of North-Eastern Russia - Vladimir.

Kolomna battle

After the defeat of the Ryazan land, the Horde army moved further north, to Kolomna. The invasion came close to the borders of the Vladimir-Suzdal land. The Grand Duke of Vladimir Yuri Vsevolodovich of Vladimir, who did not respond to the call of Ryazan to jointly oppose Baty, himself came under attack.

It cannot be said that the Grand Duke did not take any measures to strengthen the defense. However, the winter offensive and the rapid advance of the Horde, who comparatively easily crushed the resistance of the strong Ryazan principality, came as a surprise to Yuri Vsevolodovich. Apparently, the Horde residents did not wait in the winter, and Ryazan was supposed to detain the enemy, making it possible for Vladimir Russia to gather strength and concentrate considerable troops of North-Eastern Russia on the borders of the Vladimir principality. The Grand Duke, after receiving the first news of the invasion, began to prepare for battle. In addition, he played the factor of feudal fragmentation, Baty sent ambassadors to Vladimir and offered “peace” to Yuri. If the Grand Duke did not believe the proposal for "peace", then apparently he decided to use negotiations to postpone the war, which was necessary for the collection of troops. Under these conditions, Ryazan did not help.

While the Horde smashed the land of Ryazan, the grand duke was able to concentrate on a rather serious enemy army’s supposed path. The gathering place was Kolomna, which was then part of the Ryazan principality. There was no direct route from Ryazan to Vladimir. The forests and marshes north of the Oka, on both sides of the River Pra, with almost no population, were completely unsuitable for the passage of a large army. The only convenient way to the center of the Vladimir land lay across the ice of the Moscow River and further along the Klyazma to Vladimir. This path and locked Kolomna fortress. It was a fairly strong fortress, located at the crossroads of river paths. The regiments of the Grand Duke gathered at this strategic point. According to the chronicles, the Vladimir regiments headed by the eldest son of the Grand Duke Vsevolod Yuryevich and the experienced commander Yeremey Glebovich gathered here. Also, the remnants of the Ryazan troops with Prince Roman Ingvarevich went to Kolomna, the regiments of Pronsk, Moscow and some other cities approached. The Suzdal Chronicle even writes that "Novgorod with their warriors" had time to approach the prince of Vladimir.

The united Russian army camped near the walls of Kolomna, behind the "ridges", that is, the palisade. The Russians were not going to sit outside the walls of the fortress and decided to take the fight to its walls. The guard detachment of the governor Yeremey Glebovich in time found the enemy. The troops of Batu approached Kolomna from the south, from the direction of the Oka and 1 in January 1238, attacked the Russian army. All the chroniclers note the decisive nature of the battle: “there was a great slaughter,” “they fought hard”, “here Kolomna had a strong battle”. That is, the Russian troops did not keep the defense behind the fortifications and came out to meet the enemy. This is reported by Eastern sources. By Kolomna had to pull the corps of all the princes of the Khans, besieging Ryazan. Rashid ad-Din reports that in a fierce clash fell one of the Tsarevich-Chingizids - Kulkan. Usually, the Horde commanders led the troops, being behind the battle formations, the death of the Khan shows the degree of heat of the battle, with the front breaks and enemy breakthroughs. Thus, Kulkan was the only Horde Khan who died during the campaign of Batu's army in Eastern Europe.

Thus, in terms of the number of troops and the intensity of the battle, the battle near Kolomna became the most decisive battle of the invasion of Batu in Northeast Russia. It was an attempt by the united grand-ducal rati to give a decisive battle to the enemy and stop the Horde on the borders of Vladimir-Suzdal Russia.

The battle ended with a heavy defeat of the Russian army. The Horde cavalry in a fierce battle broke the resistance of the Russian troops and drove them to the "holes". In battle, Kolomna's princes Roman Ingvarevich, voivode Yeremey Glebovich and many other soldiers died. Prince Vsevolod Yurevich with a small squad was able to break through the ring of enemies and fled to Vladimir. After that, the Horde forces broke the remnants of the Russian troops in Kolomna itself and moved across the ice of the Moscow River further north into the depths of the Vladimir land.

Thus, in the decisive battle of Kolomna, the main forces of Vladimir-Suzdal Russia suffered a decisive defeat and almost completely fell. Vladimir land was left without troops. The plan to repel the enemy invasion on the border of Vladimir Russia failed.

The capture of Suzdal. Thumbnail from the Russian chronicle

Death of Moscow

Moscow was then an ordinary Russian city, protected by a wooden wall. There was a squad under the authority of the son of Grand Duke Vladimir Yuryevich and the governor Philip Nyanka. 15 January 1238, the Horde laid siege to Moscow. It was the first in stories city ​​attack by an external opponent. The city beat off enemy assault 5 days and fell on January 20. The voivode died, and Prince Vladimir was captured. Apparently, Moscow was already a big city at that time, since it resisted 5 days, almost as much as the capital of the Ryazan land. Only "together", that is, the combined forces of the Horde army, the resistance of the Muscovites broke down.

The Laurentian Chronicle described the destruction of the city in the following way: “Vzasha Moscow to Tatars, and the governor, Philip Nyanka, for the Orthodox Christian faith, and Prince Volodymar Yasha with his hands, the son of Yuriev, and the people to beat him from the old to the real child and the city and the churches of the holy fire of predash, and the monasteries of all the villages and of the village burned down and a lot of land is laid. ”

Having set fire to Moscow and its environs (“they set fire to the villages”), the troops of Batyi moved towards Vladimir. Apparently, they again went first across the ice of the Moscow River to the north, and then, past the wooded watershed, went to Klyazma. Along the Klyazma there was a direct road to the capital of the Vladimir principality. Horde moved on the ice of the rivers. This is a characteristic feature of the Batu campaign. Otherwise in the winter in Russia then it was impossible to pass. However, in these conditions, the troops moved slowly. From Ryazan to Vladimir went more than a month. The distance between Ryazan and Vladimir is a little more than 300 km, that is, about 15 km passed per day. Taking into account the stops for the siege of fortresses, the fight against individual Russian troops.

The capture of Vladimir. Thumbnail from the Russian chronicle

Battle for Vladimir

4 February 1238, Batu's troops approached Vladimir. The city, protected by high walls and towers, ramparts, was a powerful fortress. Russian cities were built in places convenient for defense. From the south, Vladimir covered Klyazma, from the north and east - the Lybid river with steep banks and ravines. The city had three defensive lines: it was defended by the moats, ramparts and walls of the New City; the shaft and walls of the Middle, or Monomakh's city; stone walls of the Vladimir Kremlin - Detinets. The Vladimir Kremlin had walls composed of monumental tuff slabs that merged with the city ramparts. The powerful gate stone tower complemented the fortifications of the Detinets. In addition, numerous stone churches and monasteries could serve as strongholds: the Assumption and Rozhdestvensky monasteries, the Dmitrievsky and Uspensky cathedrals, the Savior, St. George and Vozdvizhenskaya churches at Torga.

Especially strong fortifications were in the west, where there were no natural barriers and a flat field was located in front of the city walls. It was here that the famous Golden Gate, built under the Prince of Vladimir Andrew Bogolyubsky, was located. The powerful gates, apart from defensive functions, served as the main entrance to the city and served directly to religious purposes (the church was above them). Close to the gate from the north and the south are the bulk ramparts with deep moats on the outside. A bridge passed through the moat from the gate leading out of the city. The height of the arch reached 14 meters. Massive oak leaf gates, hanging on forged hinges, adjoined the arched lintel. The gates were covered with sheets of gilded copper, brightly shining in the sun and striking the imagination of contemporaries. Hence the name of the gate - Golden. It seemed that a well-fortified city with a strong garrison, which reinforced the city militia, had to endure a long siege. However, as subsequent events showed, the grand duke could not prepare the capital for a long defense. Apparently, he did not expect that the enemy would break through to Vladimir.

Golden Gate from the side of Kozlov Val

Prince Vsevolod Yurevich with a small retinue "ran" to Vladimir and announced the defeat at Kolomna. It was necessary to urgently adopt a new plan of war. Stop the enemy on the distant approaches failed. There was no great ratification to give Vladimir the enemy a new decisive battle, and they did not have time to gather an army. Horde approached the city. At the princely council, opinions were divided. Some boyars offered to take the princely family and the treasury to secret forest lining, and in the city leave only the soldiers. Others offered to leave the squad with the sons of the Grand Duke in the city, and Yuri himself to gather troops near Vladimir "in a strong place", so that the Horde, knowing that the Russian army was near, "did not dare to mine the city." In the end, it was decided to leave part of the squad with the sons of the Grand Duke for the defense of the city. Yuri himself with a small squad left the city and went to the north to collect a new army in order to give a decisive battle to the enemy. The Grand Duke, apparently hoping that Vsevolod and Mstislav would be able to fight for powerful fortifications, the enemy’s advance would be stopped. And at this time he will gather a host and will not allow the Horde to destroy Northeastern Russia. To the Grand Duke were to arrive the squads of his brothers - Yaroslav and Svyatoslav, regiments from the cities of North-Eastern Russia, and Novgorod. As a result, the enemy, weakened by fierce battles, in the conditions of the onset of the spring thaw, will be forced to retreat to the steppe.

After the departure of the Grand Duke, the sons Vsevolod and Mstislav Yuryevichi led the defense of the city, under which was experienced voivode Peter Oslyadakovich. The city was preparing for defense: residents from the surrounding villages and towns fled, men stood up in the ranks of the militia, brought food, drove cattle.

3 February 1238, the Horde troops came to Vladimir. They immediately identified the weakest point - on the west side. Stepniaks showed the princes and townspeople standing on the walls of Vladimir Yuryevich who had been captured during the rout of Moscow and demanded a voluntary surrender of the city. They shouted: “Where are the Ryazan princes, your city and your great Yuri prince, is it not our national hand and death that passed?” They were answered with arrows. Horde killed Vladimir in front of the townspeople and began to prepare for the siege. Numerous troops surrounded the city, and the main forces camped at the Golden Gate. Horde began to construct a palisade around the city to prevent a sudden sortie or breakthrough of defenders, and also to prevent residents from escaping.

While the main forces were preparing to storm the capital, a large corps on the ice of Klyazma and Nerl moved toward Suzdal. Baty and his commanders wanted to avoid a possible strike by the Russian troops, to secure the rear. Suzdal was located just 30 km from Vladimir, and from there Yuri Vsevolodovich could strike. The Horde command, apparently, knew that the Grand Duke had left Vladimir. Suzdal could not provide serious resistance. In winter, its main defensive lines — hail from three sides — were surrounded by the Kamenka River, and the fourth was a deep ditch filled with water — were passable. Horde on the ice immediately went to the city walls. In addition, there was practically no garrison in Suzdal. Suzdal regiment went with the Grand Duke, the remaining soldiers went to Vladimir. Therefore, hail taken in stride. A day later, the cavalry corps, trashed Suzdal and its surroundings, returned. Horde led numerous prisoners who were used for siege works.

Stone car (Russian vices). Arabic manuscript drawing

On February 6, the Baty troops prepared for a decisive assault, chopped down wood, built stairs and vices (rams and stone-throwing machines). With the help of siege machines began shelling the city. The walls and towers tried to break up with huge stones, pots with combustible substances caused fires. In front of the defenders, huge crowds of prisoners were led around and beaten around the walls. And at this critical moment, Vladimir know the spirit fell. Princes and boyars, instead of meeting the fierce enemy from the front ranks of the defenders, inspiring them to fight, with the blessing of Vladimir Bishop Mitrofan, became a monk. The “elite” prayed and waited for the “angelic death”, followed by “ascension” to heaven.

That is, the Vladimir nobility acted not in the same way as the Ryazan boyar Yevpaty Kolovrat, who with his fierce attack shook Batu himself and his entire army. The negative role played by the Christian church, which paralyzed the will of the nobility. From the very beginning, the churchmen declared the Horde invasion "God's scourge", "God's punishment for the sins of the people", called for prayers and fasting, and not a deadly fight against the invaders. According to the clergy, the resistance was meaningless, it is impossible to fight against God's punishment, it was necessary to put up with it. It came to the point that the trimmed "monks" princes Vsevolod and Mstislav left the city and with rich gifts went to the Batu camp to ask for Khan's "mercy." The South Russian Chronicle reports that Vsevolod was "afraid" of the battle and left the city with a small squad, taking "many gifts" with him. Baty did not accept the peace proposals and "ordered to be dirty." Princes killed. As a result, the remaining warriors and city militia were left without leadership. It is obvious that such actions of the princes demoralized the garrison. And part of the professional squad, which could be useful in the defense of the walls and shafts, leading the militia, died to no avail.

Having broken several gaps in the walls, the Horde went on the attack. In the breaks boiling furiously slashing. Vladimirstsy chest met "embarked" enemies. The first assault was repulsed. The townspeople tried to seal the gaps. Early in the morning of February 7, the assault resumed. At the same time, the attack was going on from all sides: at the same time, they attacked both the walls of the tenements, the Detinets above Klyazma, and the ramparts of the Middle City. Thus, the forces of the Vladimir garrison were sprayed. But the main blow was struck by the troops of Batu from the west, from the side of the New City. Golden Gate was an impregnable stronghold, but the wooden walls could not stand. A large section of the wall south of the Golden Gate, opposite the Church of the Savior, collapsed. Almost simultaneously, fortifications were cracked in several more places: at the Irinin Gate, at the Copper Gate and at the Volga Gate. The ditches before the breaches were littered with bundles of brushwood, lumps of frozen earth, planks and logs. The defenders tried to set fire to debris, but without success. Chroniclers report that the moats were filled with "raw forest".

Siege and storming of Vladimir. February 1238. Map source: V.V. Kargalov. People-hero: The history of military invasions in Russia. IV - XIV centuries.

Through the debris - "signs", the Horde passed behind the moats, climbed the ramparts on the stairs and the ropes and broke through the breaches in the walls from different sides into the New City. The garrison was weak and could not stand in several places at once. The enemy had the opportunity to strike hard in several directions at once, taking advantage of his numerical advantage. One detachment broke from the west into the breach at the Golden Gate, another from the north, from the Lybed River, at the Irininy Gate, the third from the Klyazma side, through the Volga Gates. A fierce hand-to-hand fight was on the streets of the city. The defenders tried to block the streets with improvised materials, cut in narrow aisles, shoot down enemies with arrows from the windows. Then the Horde began to set fire to the house, crowding the citizens. Vladimir was burning, many people died in fire and smoke. By the middle of the day the new city fell. "They took the city before lunch," - says the chronicler. In this fierce battle fell most of the defenders of the city.

Small survivors defenders retreated to the Middle (Monomakh) city. But the fact was that he was not prepared in advance for defense. There was no separate fresh garrison that could hold back the onslaught of the enemy and allow the rest of the defenders to hide behind walls and ramparts. As a result, the Horde on the move broke into the middle city. Organize his defense could not. The stone walls of Vladimir Detinets were also taken on the run. Individual heaps of defenders simply could not create a solid defense. At the same time, the princely family, boyars and ordinary people hid in the Assumption Cathedral. They refused to surrender. They were overlaid with boards and logs and set on fire. Vladimir fell.

Thus, the capital and the strongest fortress of Vladimir-Suzdal Russia was captured, plundered and burned. A significant part of the population died in battle, burned or suffocated in the conflagration, was cut or captured. The Grand Duke, his sons and the governors could not organize a long defense of the city, in order to gather their strength and give a new battle to the enemy. Grand Prince Yury Vsevolodovich collected troops in the Trans-Volga forests. And his sons Vsevolod and Mstislav could not keep Vladimir and died. The army of Batu was able to relatively calmly smash the cities of North-Eastern Russia.

The capture of Vladimir by the troops of Khan Batu. Diorama-model of the Vladimir Museum

Comments

[XII legion]

The battle for Vladimir is a feat of Russian weapons
But the balance of power was too unequal
But Yuri did not give up - there was still a battle on the City River ...

[Cartalon]

And what was the balance of power? Byt has less than 30 thousand people how many people were in the city we do not know, another thing I can’t remember at all the case that Vladimir fought off someone.

[XII legion]

How what?
Princely squad - from several hundred to several thousand people.
A few thousand - less than 30000 thousand. If the latter of course there were only 3 tumens.

[co-creator]

Quote: Cartalon

Byt has less than 30 thousand people

Oh how. This means that 30 people in a couple of months have conquered a vast territory of several tens of thousands of kilometers. Yes uzhzhzhzh. How many wonderful moments in this life.

[Luga]

Quotation: blooded man

Oh how. So 30 to a man for a couple of months, a huge territory of several tens of thousands of kilometers won

Not conquered, but plundered. The conquest involves the establishment of control over the territory, the imposition of its administration, garrisons. They themselves wrote nonsense and themselves are surprised.

[co-creator]

Quote: Luga

Not conquered, but plundered. The conquest involves the establishment of control over the territory, the imposition of its administration, garrisons. They themselves wrote nonsense and themselves are surprised.

So IGO was not? Well and goodies.
According to the annals, it was not looting, but conquest with the assault of cities, the destruction of the local population, etc. Crimean Tatars robbed.

[tlauicol]

But what, tributary and political dependence implies occupation? Igo was (I do not like the word, think of something else), there was no occupation

[co-creator]

Quote: Tlauicol

But what, tributary and political dependence implies occupation?

Tribute is generally a common process.
Political dependence is undoubtedly an occupation or a vassaliate.

Quote: Tlauicol

Igo was (I do not like the word, think of something else), there was no occupation

What is the yoke in your opinion? If this is a tribute fee, then we had the Crimean Tatar yoke already under Peter the Great.
If this is political dependence, then as Lugsky wrote it was not there. I completely agree with him.

[tlauicol]

chasing a label and helping troops in punitive campaigns - not a political dependency? Peter1 did not go to the Crimea for anointing. Those. The yoke will be more complete than occupation, but later than ordinary tribute

[co-creator]

Quote: Tlauicol

chasing a label and helping troops in punitive campaigns - not a political dependency?

Of course, there was no political dependence. There is not a single document from the metropolis with the orders of its colony, i.e. Russian princes. Although if there is, then enlighten me.
I do not really understand what is unusual in punitive campaigns with feudal fragmentation and state building.

Quote: Tlauicol

Peter1 did not go to the Crimea for anointing.

Nobody went to the horde either, there are no fools.

Quote: Tlauicol

The yoke will be more complete than occupation, but later than ordinary tribute

IGO THIS IS DESTRUCTION OF FEODALISM AND CONSTRUCTION OF THE ONE Russian State Nomads helped in this, we can say thanks to them.

[Luga]

Quotation: blooded man

If this is political dependence, then as Lugsky wrote it was not there.

If you read the rest as well as my posts, I seem to begin to understand where the most exotic historical concepts come from.
I wrote that there was no conquest of the lands, there was a robbery. The Mongols came and went, leaving behind nothing but corpses and ashes. And then, threatened by the repetition of this sad experience, they forced the Russian princes to acknowledge their dependence on the will of the khan and assume vassal obligations towards him. This is called political dependence, and I have never denied it. Do not be so frank ... let's just say, interpret my words.
At first, there were even attempts by the Mongols to establish their own fiscal bodies, but they had to quickly abandon this. Nevertheless, the unconditional supremacy of the political will of the khans over Russia remained until the end of the 14th century, and the tribute was another hundred years longer.

[co-creator]

Quote: Luga

If you read the rest as well as my posts,

Do you refuse your words? Well, what will I consider in the future. that you are not responsible for your words.

Quote: Luga

I wrote that there was no conquest of the lands, there was a robbery.

It means that? Was there no political dependence, or is any robbery a political dependence for you?

Quote: Luga

forced the Russian princes to acknowledge their dependence on the will of the khan and assume vassal obligations in relation to him. This is called political dependence, and I have never denied it. Do not be so frank ... let's just say, interpret my words

What was this dependence expressed in? In paying tribute? So the Crimean Tatars also paid tribute. In shortcuts? So the Crimean Tatars also sent labels. So what was the dependence expressed in?
Political dependence is when there is political control over the vassal, and who controlled the princes? Well, call me this procurator and documents from the mother country where orders were transmitted to the princes.
This is your strange interpretation, not mine.

Quote: Luga

At first, there were even attempts by the Mongols to establish their own fiscal bodies, but they had to quickly abandon this.

How do you imagine it? Any alien "organs" must rely on someone else's military force or a representative of this military force. The Mongols in Russia had neither the first nor the second. Actually, therefore, any tribute, reparations, if there is no military control, is collected by local authorities. Paying tribute and reporters is not political control from the word at all.

Quote: Luga

Nevertheless, the unconditional supremacy of the political will of the khans over Russia remained until the end of the XNUMXth century, and the tribute was another hundred years longer.

The unconditional supremacy of the political USA over the Russian Federation remains to this day. What is this expressed in? Therein . that some of the money is stored in US bonds and we live according to the constitution, which was actually written in the USA. That type of the same nonsense you wrote.

[svp67]

Quotation: blooded man

Oh how. This means that 30 people in a couple of months have conquered a vast territory of several tens of thousands of kilometers. Yes uzhzhzhzh. How many wonderful moments in this life.

Yes, about 30 ... 35 thousand. And how much could you spend with a FAST raid throughout Russia and even in WINTER time? The same expedition FEED than necessary and not only people, or rather not so many people as the main draft force of the expeditionary corps - horses, and EVERY WAR had THREE units.

[co-creator]

30.000 would never have been able to conquer such territory, it is impossible. Robbing without taking the city could and then only in the summer.
Let me remind you that a Mongolian horse cannot fulfill its duties in the winter at the pasture, otherwise it will simply die. The Mongols until 17 did not know that horses can be fed oats.

[svp67]

Quotation: blooded man

Let me remind you that a Mongolian horse cannot fulfill its duties in the winter at the pasture, otherwise it will simply die

Nevertheless, the invasion was WINTER, it is a historical fact.

Quotation: blooded man

30.000 would never have been able to conquer such territory, it is impossible. Robbing without taking the city could and then only in the summer.

But they were able to do this and it was in the WINTER. This suggests that the time after the battle on Kalka the Mongol-Tatars did not lose in vain, but carried out a planned and long-range reconnaissance. Getting information about everything, and about roads and about stocks of food and fodder, about the number of troops, the relations of princes. Here's how to find out how they did it. It would be interesting to read and familiarize yourself.
And by the way, they did not capture, but led to humility. Those who refused were simply DESTROYED. And in those principalities that obeyed, they left their governors, with detachments.

[co-creator]

Quote: svp67

Nevertheless, the invasion was WINTER, it is a historical fact.

This is a historical myth, or rather, historians do not understand what the chroniclers wrote about. They take the mogul for the Mongol, and this is a mistake.
Plus, most of the battles and destruction by the chroniclers is simply exaggerated. This is a common practice even for our days, but for some reason historians believe the annals literally.

Quote: svp67

This suggests that the time after the battle on Kalka the Mongol-Tatars did not lose in vain, but carried out a planned and long-range reconnaissance. Getting information about everything, and about roads and about stocks of food and fodder, about the number of troops, the relations of princes. Here's how to find out how they did it. It would be interesting to read and familiarize yourself.

Of course, they sent sabotage units and reconnaissance. They had a general staff, topographic maps, and the operation against Russia was called INVASION. It is funny and sad at the same time . That just do not come up with, that would explain the inexplicable. Even at the beginning of the 19th century, intelligence could not accurately determine all these things, and even then it was all the more impossible. For example, Napoleon, fighting with the Russians for almost 7 years, thought that he would be met by local peasants with bread and salt, and the Russian aristocracy as well as the European after a couple of battles will accept all its conditions. He could not calculate the forage correctly and half of the horses died, and almost all of the cattle for food had died near Smolensk. And this is the 19th century where the French were at home in RI and could buy any secret.

Quote: svp67

And by the way, they did not capture, but led to humility. Those who refused were simply DESTROYED. And in those principalities that obeyed, they left their governors, with detachments.

And where did these governors live, where were the garrisons, what was their number?

[svp67]

Quotation: blooded man

This is a historical myth, or rather, historians do not understand what the chroniclers wrote about. They take the mogul for the Mongol, and this is a mistake.

Yes, of course ... but where then are the traces of huge conflagrations and the numerous remains of the dead, including MONGOLOID people, in Mongolian equipment?

Quotation: blooded man

For example, Napoleon, fighting with the Russians for almost 7 years, thought that local peasants would meet him with bread and salt, and the Russian aristocracy, like the European aristocracy, would accept all its conditions after a couple of battles.

The Tatar-Mongol, namely the total annihilation and ruin of the non-submissive and a loyal attitude towards the submissive, he could have achieved more in the matter of supply. And in the light cavalry, the French clearly lost to our ancestors, and in matters of defense of fodder units this is very important

Quotation: blooded man

And where did these governors live, where were the garrisons, what was their number?

In cities. In their settlements. Read about the periodic uprisings of our ancestors, where and whom did they kill and who are the "bezermany"

[co-creator]

Quote: svp67

Yes, of course ... but where then are the traces of huge conflagrations and the numerous remains of the dead,

It would be foolish if there were no traces of conflagration. Numerous remains? Well, this is clearly a bust with numerous.

Quote: svp67

including MONGOLOID people, in Mongolian-specific equipment?

Where did you find it? We found equipment, but these places are very few. The most famous and largest is Zmievo hillfort. Only finding equipment does not prove the yoke and the invasion as it is interpreted today. For example, there are an order of magnitude more Varangian mounds and there are even settlements, but for some reason no one on this basis does not declare a yoke of yarns.

Quote: svp67

The Tatar-Mongol, namely the total annihilation and ruin of the non-submissive and a loyal attitude towards the submissive, he could have achieved more in the matter of supply.

Life is not paper, cutting out the fodder population from this will no longer increase.

Quote: svp67

And in the light cavalry, the French clearly lost to our ancestors, and in matters of defense of fodder units this is very important

The French had enough horses, but they are dying. It is on paper that you can drive 90.000 horses in the winter in a month to drive thousands of kilometers and they will not have anything. In life, everything is different.

Quote: svp67

In cities. In their settlements. Read about the periodic uprisings of our ancestors, where and whom did they kill and who are the "bezermany"

Where exactly? What was the number, who was in charge, where are the orders to the princes from these people.
Do you know what a copper riot? Without any Mongol was.
Well, the fact that the people periodically rebelled against usurers and tribute collectors is normal. The Russians considered it unworthy to engage in usury, collecting taxes, etc. Therefore, this business was entrusted to others, at first it was the Tatars, and then they were replaced by Jews. It is as if not only among Russians, but also among all Slavs, Germans, Anglo-Saxons, etc. Actually, therefore, the Jewish system captured the banking system.

[Yuri Lazarev]

And no one attacked him anymore. The others on the far approaches were smashed.

[svp67]

Quote: Cartalon

Byt has less than 30 thousand people, how many people were in the city, we don’t know

Yes, no matter how many were, the structure of the army of ancient Russia was such that there were NOT MUCH professional soldiers, up to a couple of thousand to the whole principality, but Batu obviously didn’t come with a militia, his three tumens, plus reinforcement units and units are all professionals, oh what their ability to fight both in the open field and in the storming of cities clearly says, that our ancestors at the time really were not able to do.
Our loss in 1237 was a foregone conclusion, as in 1941 ... the gap in tactics and strategy was too big.

[co-creator]

Quote: svp67

No matter how many, the structure of the army of ancient Russia was such that there were NOT MUCH professional soldiers, up to a couple of thousand for the whole principality,

How is this known? In Russia at that time there were approximately one million people. Rusichi were always subjected to aggression from their nomad neighbors. Moreover, there was a feudal war where it was necessary not only to keep squads, but also to defend cities (and this is done by ordinary people, not small squads). It turns out that in every principality there were only a few thousand people who were insolvent. Yes, there were professional squads, but there was a militia of men who were infantry. And this infantry could be very numerous, at least more than ten thousand. Infantry against cavalry has always been quite successfully used, especially in defense. Exactly the same infantry won in the Kulikovo field, waged wars with the RF, Lithuania.

Quote: svp67

that our ancestors at the time really could not do.

That’s where you got such nonsense in your head? Rusichs fought no less than the Mongols, it is enough to read the PVL.

[svp67]

Quotation: blooded man

In Russia at that time there were approximately one million people.

And what is Russia at that time? And how many independent principalities was it divided? Moreover, even if you take your number, at that time no more than 2% of the population could be in the army and it turns out that the whole army is 20 people, it’s not very much against even the expeditionary corps of the Mongol-Tatars of 000–30 thousand people

Quotation: blooded man

That’s where you got such nonsense in your head? Rusichs fought no less than the Mongols, it is enough to read the PVL.

Well NAME fortified cities that were taken by the Rus in the period BEFORE the Mongol-Tatar invasion. Yes, and compare this list with the Tatar-Mongols stormed

[co-creator]

Quote: svp67

And what is Russia at that time? And how many independent principalities was it divided?

Well, as I understand it, Vladimir Russia.
And what difference does it make?

Quote: svp67

Your figure, at that time in the army could be no more than 2% of the population and it turns out that the whole army is 20 people,

Why is 2%, not 3%, not 10%? Because it’s more convenient for you? I believe that in the infantry (militia) in the winter it was possible to take almost the entire male population.

Quote: svp67

very little against even the expeditionary force of the Mongol-Tatars numbering 30 - 35 thousand people

20.000 vs 30.000. Hmm .. This is a guaranteed defeat for the invaders.

Quote: svp67

Well NAME fortified cities that were taken by the Rus in the period BEFORE the Mongol-Tatar invasion.

Yes, complete. There was a feudal war and the Rurikovich slaughtered each other. Kiev passed many times from hand to hand. The same thing happened in Vladimir Russia.

[svp67]

Quotation: blooded man

Why is 2%, not 3%, not 10%?

Yes, everything is simple. A warrior, a professional warrior, must be fed and provided, and for this the remaining 98% of the population worked ....

Quotation: blooded man

Because it’s more convenient for you?

This figure is calculated by historians. Based on research. It did not work at that time, with that productivity, having a percentage higher. Equipping a warrior was VERY expensive.

Quotation: blooded man

I believe that in the infantry (militia) in the winter it was possible to take almost the entire male population.

Yes, you do not forget to grab children and women there ... "meat" it is "meat". At that time, society was very stratified. During excavations in some households, ONLY agricultural equipment is found, in others only the inventory of craftsmen, in the third only military equipment. There was no mixing. People were narrow specialists.

Quotation: blooded man

There was a feudal war and the Rurikovich slaughtered each other

Who denies this, only basically it happened in the field. They rarely went to the assault, it made no sense.
Enough patience, then listen ...

[co-creator]

Quote: svp67

Yes, everything is simple. A warrior, a professional warrior, must be fed and provided, and for this the remaining 98% of the population worked ....

Who fed the Mongols?

Quote: svp67

It did not work at that time, with that productivity, having a percentage higher. Equipping a warrior was VERY expensive.

Well, the Mongols somehow managed to keep more professional warriors. Miracles? Magic?

Quote: svp67

Yes, you do not forget to grab children and women there ... "meat" it is "meat".

Well, it happened that women fought on an equal footing.

Quote: svp67

During excavations in some households, ONLY agricultural equipment is found, in others only the inventory of craftsmen, in the third only military equipment. There was no mixing. People were narrow specialists.

Do you think how many soldiers of the modern Russian army before this very army held an automatic machine, walked in formation, carried out orders?

Quote: svp67

Who denies this, only basically it happened in the field. They rarely went to the assault, it made no sense.
Enough patience, then listen ...

It’s strange. Why only fought in the field? Reason?
Patience is not enough, I tried many times. I can’t listen to the story in the form of a full house show. In general, I do not consider Zhukov an authority and a specialist. Actually, he said all the most important from the very beginning. Different historians give a different number to the Mongols, and of course they are all mistaken, but HE, Zhukov, calculated everything correctly and will tell us now.
His statement was especially amusing that in the first campaign the Mongols made up the majority of the troops. This is even the most “pro-Mongolian” historians do not allow themselves to speak.

[svp67]

Quotation: blooded man

Well, the Mongols somehow managed to keep more professional warriors. Miracles? Magic?

Yes, and miracles and magic, but human hands and apparently really seemed like such, both for our ancestors and for other opponents of the Mongols. They just applied know-how, I think that the Chinese have spied and creatively finalized. Russia, in particular the principality of Moscow, and then the state, adopted the same system, which made it possible to have an army many times larger with the same population, as one soldier began to cost several times cheaper. Which, coupled with an increase in the productivity of the rural population, centralization of power and restoration of the population, was the basis that helped Moscow in the victory for leadership

Quotation: blooded man

Well, it happened that women fought on an equal footing.

On the "polar forests" so generally the legends were made up. The situation here is different: everyone who did not belong to the military class was doomed to clash with the Mongols, since they had nothing from defensive weapons, and they didn’t have weapons practices, although I admit that someone from gifted and happy, of course, he could succeed.

Quotation: blooded man

It’s strange. Why only fought in the field? Reason?

Other psychology and other traditions of war. There was nothing to burn the cities and kill the smerds, as they had to go to the winner.

Quotation: blooded man

His statement was especially amusing that in the first campaign the Mongols made up the majority of the troops

But I don’t see anything seditious in this. In the armies of Rome and Byzantium, at the first stage of their appearance, the native Romans and Byzantines had the same majority, and then all sorts of “barbarians” began to replace them. So, why should we refuse this to the Mongols, and how cool they acted suggests that this "killing and capture machine" has already passed its break-in and debugging period.

[co-creator]

Quote: svp67

They just applied know-how, I think that the Chinese have spied and creatively finalized.

What kind of know-how?

Quote: svp67

Which, coupled with an increase in the productivity of the rural population, centralization of power and restoration of the population, was the basis that helped Moscow in the victory for leadership

No, Moscow was helped by the money they received as monopolists of the Volga Trade Route. They bought the right to this monopoly from the Horde.

Quote: svp67

The situation here is different: everyone who did not belong to the military class was doomed to clash with the Mongols, since they had nothing from defensive weapons, and they didn’t have any practice with weapons,

Why was doomed? The infantry quite successfully fought in the defense against the professional military, and in the field as a tactical unit was not bad. She didn’t need any special weapons, either a spear or a spear, that’s all the weapon.

Quote: svp67

Other psychology and other traditions of war. There was nothing to burn the cities and kill the smerds, as they had to go to the winner.

Well this is a lie. They burned the city and robbed the church only on the road.

Quote: svp67

But I don’t see anything seditious in this.

Yes, I don’t see anything either, it just needs to be substantiated with something.

Quote: svp67

So, why should we refuse this to the Mongols, and how cool they acted suggests that this "killing and capture machine" has already passed its break-in and debugging period.

Because there is NOTHING left of the Mongols. Previously, they hoped for genetics and there was a bummer here. Tatars have a small Central Asian genome, so they still have a quarter of Tatars with Asian features.

[svp67]

Quotation: blooded man

Because there is NOTHING left of the Mongols

And what was to stay? They did not behave quite typically for invaders. With resistance, they destroyed everyone and everything, it’s me regarding the “genetic traces” ... the dead do not give birth. Under submission, they did not rape, they had enough money and humility.

Quotation: blooded man

What kind of know-how?

There are a lot of things. They abandoned heavy weapons, which were very expensive. This allowed them not only to sharply increase the army, so one combat unit became cheaper, and sharply increase maneuverability. Dramatically raised discipline and manageability. Unlike our troops, where each prince could be arbitrary, the Mongols did not allow this, under pain of death. Well-established intelligence.

Quotation: blooded man

Well this is a lie. They burned the city and robbed the church only on the road.

Give examples, we will analyze.

Quotation: blooded man

The infantry quite successfully fought in the defense against the professional military, and in the field as a tactical unit was not bad. She didn’t need any special weapons, either a spear or a spear, that’s all the weapon.

What kind of infantry? City regiment? Who had all the weapons that the prince's squad had? That one, yes, but a simple crowd, not protected by anything, would have been simply destroyed by any Mongol squad, even without a "dog dump", just arrows.

Quotation: blooded man

No, Moscow was helped by the money they received as monopolists of the Volga Trade Route. They bought the right to this monopoly from the Horde.

Not so simple. Do you know the theory of "take off on the hills"? The Moscow and Tver principalities became centers of gravity for the internal migration of the population, which fled from places previously inhabited and subjected to constant invasions and ruins. The transition to a three-field, which raised labor productivity. All these reasons allowed Moscow to rise from a simple specific principality to the Center of a large country

[Vend]

Quote: XII legion

The battle for Vladimir is a feat of Russian weapons
But the balance of power was too unequal
But Yuri did not give up - there was still a battle on the City River ...

The feat of Russia the Great. Now we are waiting for comments that there was no yoke and Batu did not come to Russia. And the Mongols are generally Rusich.

[marline]

Quote: Wend

Now we are waiting for comments that there was no yoke and Batu did not come to Russia. And the Mongols are generally Rusich.

The author has already written about this in previous articles.
See carefully at the end of the article:

Articles from this series:
The myth of the invasion of the Mongols from Mongolia

Why create a fake about the "Mongol" invasion of Russia
The myth of the "Tatar-Mongol yoke"

[Vend]

Quote: merlin

Quote: Wend

Now we are waiting for comments that there was no yoke and Batu did not come to Russia. And the Mongols are generally Rusich.

The author has already written about this in previous articles.
See carefully at the end of the article:

Articles from this series:
The myth of the invasion of the Mongols from Mongolia

Why create a fake about the "Mongol" invasion of Russia
The myth of the "Tatar-Mongol yoke"

So I did not write anything about the articles. I wrote comments will appear on the issue of mindfulness

[lwimu1976]

Batu did not come to Russia.
Of course! Who saw him? And the Germans wrote the annals! Look Mueller!

[co-creator]

Quote: Wend

Now we are waiting for comments that there was no yoke and Batu did not come to Russia. And the Mongols are generally Rusich.

The Mongols are not Rusichi.
Batu came.
Igo was not.
Yes, and there was no Mongol either, there were "Mughals and Tatars"

[Monarchist]

Wend, you have removed my tongue: what for Batu and Tatars? Indeed, recently we read about the fact that the Mongols, except for the shepherds, did not know anything else, and that the ancient Russians didn’t figure out how to win themselves.
Now, once again, I’ve been convinced that it’s time for some “historians” to go to school urgently or ...... I don’t know how others are, and I’m also taught from school to respect Karamzin, Klyuchevsky or Soloviev. Those who are used to classical historians will not be able to perceive alternative nonsense.

[Dashing]

. And the Mongols are generally Rusich. [/ Quote]
Wend, you're right!

[ALEA IACTA EST]

Batu (Batuy, Batu) - the chieftain (khan) of the eastern Rus (Cossacks, Kazakhs, Hyperboreans). And the Dutch adventurer freemason, posing as a king, falsified history and burned the real chronicles on the orders of the Annunaki reptiles (Anglo-Saxons). But Fomenko and his own ... like-minded people uncovered this conspiracy of the millennium and restored the true story.

[Dimmih]

Batu - Dad, and Mamai, it means that the woman was in general, Mom was her name !!! And who our woman at the helm was, rightly the wife of the real Peter I, Catherine Skavronskaya, therefore she is Mamai. And when, instead of the real king, a double-Mason-Annunak returned from Holland, she quickly saw through him, and he, such a reptile, drove her to the Crimea, where the Genoese (Italian agents of the Vatican) reproached her! Something like that!

[lwimu1976]

How did they get around the city? River road. Forests!
Pedestrians from Novgorod! 600 with a hook. (Sugak river hook.)
So you need to get the news! Think ...!

[lwimu1976]

Prince Yurya, Ambassador Dorozh, in the pastures of the 3rd, 1000s; and the Road, and the speech: "but already, prince, they have circled us around." And beginning the prince regiment, set beside you, and all of a sudden Tatarov came to you; the prince didn’t have anything, more; and would be in City, and comprehending, and, having beloved her, I would have died that. But God, how did he die: much more to speak about him or her. Rostov and Suzhdal spread apart rosy. But they came from the outskirts, having taken Moscow, Pereyaslavl, Yuriev, Dmitrov, Volok. Tfrev; the same son Yaroslavl killed.

[siberalt]

Something on the ancient fresco there is not a single Mongol. That bad luck is, however.

[Vend]

Trolls they are so funny

[ver_]

..reported Khan Batuy = Yaroslav Vsevolodovich - the younger brother of George Vsevolodovich .., and * the lump * was held by the older brother ...

[Varyag_0711]

ver_ Today, 06:20
.. about Khan Batuy = Yaroslav Vsevolodovich

Yeah, and even the Cossack Mamai fought against the Finno-Tatar Ugri Dmitry Moskalsky, Genghis Khan was a great protukr, etc. ... Hello to the Martians from parallel reality ...

[parma]

The hand of the author is felt, and there are not even statements from an alternative story))

[Cxnumx]

everything would be fine, but under the article it’s nice to indicate the sources (or at least part of them) where the information came from.
Threat especially "liked" under the article:
Articles from this series:
The myth of the invasion of the "Mongols from Mongolia." Why did they create a fake about the "Mongolian" invasion of Russia. The myth of the "Tatar-Mongol yoke"
VO promotes the theme of "myths"?

[Korsar4]

In general - a completely classic presentation of events.
Where did the bite about the "paralyzing role of the Church" come from?

Excessive poisonous seasoning.
"Caesar - Caesarean. God - God."

[the lord]

From somewhere, from the situation, instead of a fight to victory or death, the Yurievichs bowed to the conqueror. Who could compare them to this in those days? The further benevolent attitude of the church towards the Mongols is quite well known for their attitude to the rights of the church to property for a long time up to Metropolitan Alexy. This is not a poisonous seasoning, but the truth about the dangers of Christianity, which both the Bulgarians and the Greeks pampered before the Rus, who beat them and robbed from time to time. and then many of our Russians before the Mongols.

[parusnik]

What can I say .. a classic description ... Without the usual husk ..

[avt]

Quote: parusnik

What can I say .. a classic description ... Without the usual husk ..

Why? Well

The only convenient way to the center of Vladimir land lay on the ice of the Moscow River and further along the Klyazma to Vladimir.

Kakay adnaka cunning kachevnik went! They knew exactly where and how in winter in Russia to move nada. They probably trained along the Amu Darya with the Syr Darya. In the summer ..... before the trip ....

Apparently, Moscow was already a big city, since it resisted for 5 days, almost as much as the capital of Ryazan land. Only “together”, that is, by the combined forces of the Horde army, did Muscovites resist the resistance.

Great if you have always and forever-and-and-ever-o-o-o-o mon-populated city was Moscow! 300 thousand mungals ah five days stormed! And then Kozelsk and vaapche - Megalopolis city! Oh! I am fornication

Quote: Wend

Now we are waiting for comments that there was no yoke and Batu did not come to Russia

Or maybe not 300 thousand? was it the mungals? Or maybe someone is so cleverly in the right direction from the local, on the beaten track in the winter then spent? Or maybe just Moscow, Kozelsk and others, not very ruined by the feuds described in “About the Ruin of the Russian Land”, kept from the fact that there were no one to defend big cities devastated by the Civil War practically? How did Demetrius later left by Roman Galitsky in Kiev and that did the mungals take a raid in Europe? Oh, I fall into the heresy of Fomenkovskaya! Bitter to me. GO-KO!

[parusnik]

Nuuuuuu ... these are the little things It’s good that they had horses, but it’s known that the Tatar-Mongol had no horses, they fought along the rivers And it is not mentioned that the Tatar-Mongols Ruso-Scythians from Siberia ...

[Monarchist]

And we are also surprised when the boys from Urengoy are somewhat nonsense, when our home-grown “historians” forgot what history is

[co-creator]

Quote: avt

Or maybe just Moscow, Kozelsk, and the others, not very ruined by the feuds described in “About the Ruin of the Russian Land”, kept themselves from the fact that there were nobody to defend big cities devastated by the Civil War.

Or maybe there was no civil war and ruin?

[avt]

Quotation: blooded man

Or maybe there was no civil war and ruin?

That sho-o-o-o-o-o ......

And in those days, from the great Yaroslav, to Vladimir, to present Yaroslav, and to his brother Yuri, Prince of Vladimir, disaster struck the Christians ...

What was it? Not a princely feud? Ah! YES! Tse IGO. And why ? And so, well, there’s nobody else.

[co-creator]

Quote: avt

That sho-o-o-o-o-o ......

Never mind

Quote: avt

What was it? Not a princely feud? Ah! YES! Tse IGO. And why ? And so, well, there’s nobody else.

But who knows what it is.
Recently, Stalin personally shot 100 million, and now the leader of the nation and all that.

[lwimu1976]

Kavgadyi and Yuri got off their horses at a bargain, near vezha 61. Blessed killers, like fierce beasts and merciless bloodsuckers, suddenly ran into the vezha; he was at a loss. And they seized him by the plow, and struck him hard; and they threw it at the tower, and the wall of the tower was broken. He stood up again. Many, having seized, dropped him to the ground, and kicked him. And then one of the lawless, by the name of Romanets 62, drew a large knife and struck in the heart of the blessed, to the right side 63, and, turning the knife, struck his noble heart.

And so the blessed and Christ-loving prince Mikhail Yaroslavich betrayed the spirit of God, taking a violent death for Christians and for his fatherland, on November twenty-second day, at six in the afternoon 64. Prince Yuri sent to Russia the noble and holy body of blessed Michael . And, having brought to Moscow, they laid it in the Church of the Holy Savior 65.

[Dashing]

Auth, you're right. To you, boyar.

[lwimu1976]

Iga was not! Yaga was! And there were Tatar hooligans. Bytovuha was!
The lawless Shevkal, the destroyer of Christianity, went to Russia with many Tatars, and came to Tver, and drove the great prince out of his court, and he himself stopped in the courtyard of the great prince, full of pride. And he began a great persecution of Christians: violence, and robbery, and beating, and reproach. The people, all the time insulted by the pride of the filthy, complained to the Grand Duke many times, asking him for protection; he, seeing the bitterness of his people and not able to protect them, ordered them to endure 100. The Tveriches did not want to endure and were looking for a convenient time

[ICT]

The capture of Vladimir by the troops of Khan Batu. Diorama-model of the Vladimir Museum


there is one nuance there when dubbing in German, the theme is taken as musical accompaniment
[Quote] [/ quote]

[Seraphimamur]

I did not understand where the Mongols are depicted in the thumbnails given in the article? Or are they off topic?

[Severomor]

Russian troops from the so-called Mongolian in these miniatures are no different. That's when the Swedes or Germans, then you can immediately see ..... others)))

[avt]

Quote: Severomor

Russian troops from the so-called Mongolian in these miniatures are no different.

To the captain, mana.

I myself have not seen Paul .... But you do not hope

When did the chronicles describe the mungals, who are strong in body, short-legged, shaving their foreheads and .... with pace! Somehow I immediately recall stories about the fact that in Russia this tribe was unknown Velmi, well, the Mavetians understand .... Just why, in the face of a sim very adnak, it reminds one tribe of the Turkic mono-religious religion that adopted -HAZAR. But this cannot be the same, because it cannot be, because we know for sure - the Khazar took Svyatoslav to the root. So, the Khazars could not possibly join the empire, inherited from presbyter John Chingiz, which he expanded ... in view of their physical extermination ... by Svyatoslav. And Gumilv wrote - took Khazaria and disappeared after ONE Russian campaign .... together with the Khazars ... all .... to the ground. Chimera C, what to take from her.

[the lord]

When talking about the complete extermination of the Khazars, it would be nice to read about the Principality of Tmutarakan and its population. after which seditious thoughts can come, sho we have a little Khazars

[IS-80_RVGK2]

By the way, recent studies have shown that the Khazars were still R1a, which is still hinting.

[igordok]

Quote: Seraphimamur

I did not understand where the Mongols are depicted in the thumbnails given in the article? Or are they off topic?

Today in VO there is an article about the Kuril Islands, a photo of a Japanese minister with a Japanese surname, and almost nothing is Mongoloid in it.

[lwimu1976]

So they are from Koreans! And maybe a bit from the Ainu!

[vitalm]

That’s the problem, where are the Mongols in miniatures? On both sides, the Russians in identical armor.

[Gopnik]

the problem is that these miniatures are written several centuries after the events.

[igordok]

Quote: Gopnik

the problem is that these miniatures are written several centuries after the events.

...
... by people who may never in their life have seen a Mongol.
The artists' dictum, “I see it this way,” you think appeared in this century.

[lwimu1976]

So it’s from one military organization! Trophies!

[reibert]

In the first, Kulkan was the only Chingizid who died in the western campaign. Killed by a random arrow. Therefore, talking about the fierce battle is impossible. Secondly, Vladimir simply surrendered, the princes and the boyars did not take part in the battle, they themselves closed the church

[Luga]

Quote: reibert

In the first, Kulkan was the only Chingizid who died in the western campaign.

The only Genghiside killed on the battlefield during the entire existence of the Mongol Empire.

Quote: reibert

Killed by a random arrow.

Where did such details come from? Why not stunned by the club of a Russian combatant, for example?

Quote: reibert

Secondly, Vladimir simply surrendered, the princes and the boyars did not take part in the battle, they themselves closed the church

The behavior of the princes, of course, is not impressive, I agree. But there was a siege, there was a fierce battle (archaeologists confirm) and who said that the boyars did not participate in the struggle?
Justify your statements, please.

[Just a man]

I come from almost those places. I have one question for historians. In those days, there were no roads as such. In February, usually such snowdrifts that after 10 kilometers in the snow a horse can only be shot so that it does not suffer. The army of the Mongols, or the Tatars, or whatever they are called there, is about 30000. So the horses are about 60000. About 300 tons of oats are needed per day, this is a train of more than 1000 horses, and in the snow. Based on the time and route of movement of the Mongols, places and the number of their clashes in the autumn and winter of 1237-38, their army moved along railway roads on platforms. I am waiting for an sensible answer.

[Varyag_0711]

And what kind of sensible answer do you want to hear? That Batu’s campaign was not because it couldn’t be according to your calculations? With the same success it can be argued that Alexander of Macedon did not go anywhere and did not win anyone. Why in your calculations do you consider only food for horses, but forgive people for no need to eat? Or did they eat the holy spirit? Count how many tons of food you needed for the army.
Why doesn’t it bother anyone that in 1812 an army of more than half a million men invaded the territory of Russia in which there were no less than 200 thousand horses, including cavalry, artillery and carts? What did they eat?
In addition, it is necessary to take into account the unpretentiousness and endurance of exactly the Tatar-Mongolian horses, they get their own food in winter conditions in the same Kazakh steppes, which are much scarcer than the lands near Vladimir. Estimated 5 kilograms of oats, about which you wrote to them here, was enough for a week, and not for one day. Deer in the tundra in permafrost get their own fodder, why does everyone indiscriminately believe that the horse is not capable of this? Yes, indeed it is with us that horses are fed with oats and hay, which is stockpiled in advance, but who told you that these stocks were completely destroyed and the Batu soldiers could not use them?
What nonsense is this? With such logic as you can dispute the whole story, didn’t you also have the Huns? But what about the Arab caliphate? They, too, were all on horses in the middle of the desert in general, where not only food, water, but nowhere to go, how did they go there?
So what is your rotten logic, is that an answer that is sensible enough for you?

[Prometey]

Quote: Varyag_0711

The estimated 5 kilograms of oats, about which you wrote here, was enough for a week, and not for one day.

Only on such a horse you won’t win much. She will not be able to run for a long gallop.

[the lord]

And on the Mongolian horses their masters half the world crushed.

[Prometey]

Quote: Varyag_0711

Why doesn’t it bother anyone that in 1812 an army of more than half a million people invaded the territory of Russia in which there were no less than 200 thousand horses

Probably because the economy of the country (or even countries) and the logistics services worked for this horde.

[Varyag_0711]

Prometey Today, 10:44 ↑
Probably because the economy of the country (or even countries) and the logistics services worked for this horde.

But the Tatar-Mongols did not mean work? Came from nowhere and disappeared into nowhere? In fact, they won before China and Khorezm, and so on even the little things ...

[Prometey]

Quote: Varyag_0711

But the Tatar-Mongols did not mean work?

Well, you probably understand that comparing the economic potential of the New Age and the Middle Ages is incorrect.

[Varyag_0711]

Prometey Today, 12:59 ↑ New
Well, you probably understand that comparing the economic potential of the New Age and the Middle Ages is incorrect.

I agree. But you must understand that not half a million nomads invaded the Russian principalities. Sources of data on the number of course vary widely, but the approximate number can be estimated at 100-150 thousand soldiers. Given that they did not move in a single mass, but in separate tumens, gathering in a single force only in a specific place, then everything is quite logical in the "traditional" version of history.
I just don’t understand why to fence a garden and invent an alternative story? Yes, maybe some non-docking is in the official version, but this does not cancel the fact of the invasion itself.
In this way, you can revise the whole story and say that there was nothing at all, well, of course, besides the ancient ukrov ...

[Prometey]

Quote: Varyag_0711

why make a garden and invent an alternative story?

I’m not personally about that. If there are questions - sane questions, then why not discuss.

Quote: Varyag_0711

but the approximate number can be estimated at 100-150 thousand soldiers.

This figure has been featured in many textbooks. But personally, in my opinion, for the Middle Ages it was too high.
I could be wrong, but it seems that the historian Shakhmatov estimated the maximum possible number of nomadic armies collected at 30-50 thousand people, which is generally more sane for that time. The Crusaders also gained a maximum from all over Europe.

[aviator65]

Quote: Varyag_0711

In fact, they won before China and Khorezm, and so on even the little things ...

At the same time, without incurring any losses! Neither fighting during the storming of cities, nor from illnesses and other misfortunes - the campaign was well, oh, very distant! As the whole of that “Mongolia” came out, so right up to Europe and reached. Straight teminators, however ..

[the lord]

Duck and walked for generations. It was only such tupar as Macedonian, Napoleon and Hitler they wanted to do everything in their lifetime. And then they made a respite for themselves, so that the people would be brought on a further campaign.

[aviator65]

30 - 80 years old is

Quote: znavel

Duck and walked for generations

? And who was left in the native steppe? Who controlled China, which at the same time already seemed to be building its great wall?
And further. Why on earth did Baty, having spat on the “conquered” China, Khorezm and others, trivia, suddenly selflessly be drawn into the inter-princely disassembly in distant ancient Rus?

[the lord]

And you do not know? So genus of Genghisides consisted of a large number of heirs. everyone got his lot. As a result, this also led to the collapse of the horde and the alienation of many territories. China assimilated its Mongol khans, gold and blue hordes appeared, Uzbeks began to conduct their own separate policies ....
But Batu was one of those who carried out the idea of ​​going to the last sea, moving westward, and there were still south (towards India) and southwest (towards Egypt)

[Just a man]

My dear man, your arguments are real nonsense. I grew up in a village, and I know what a toboggan road is for horses in winter. In winter, after half a day, she simply does not exist, from the word at all, and at the end of January and February, because of snowstorms, no one went almost anywhere. . And for those times, unfortunately, they did not manage to make bulldozers. In addition, in my youth I commanded a cavalry unit. So I inform you that the horse scored the necessary daily ration, if there is no oats (norm 6 kg), it needs 5-7 hour grazing in SUMMER. Find feed for 60000 horses in the villages, this is nonsense. Do you even understand what and how many yards there were villages at that time, and how many and what plants and crops were grown at that time. Even in the 20th century, almost every year, so that pets did not die, peasants fed them straw from the roofs of houses. And one more thing, imagine this column of Mongols on a winter toboggan road, if a column of 2 horses is almost 300 kilometers.

[Yuri Lazarev]

You have rotten logic. In the same Kazakh steppes and in the tundra in the winter there is almost no snow, so animals get food, and Russia has meter-long snowdrifts in these places. On riverbeds it’s even deeper than along the banks. The French at one time plundered along the way all in a row (September, October), they drove back by the end of October, feeling that they had died of hunger and rested after being fired on the looted road. Makedonsky killed three-quarters of the troops on their way home from India, making the transition through the desert. In Russia, during the Batu population It was 500 thousand. The largest cities were 15 thousand, especially there was no one to rob. Therefore, they did not linger in the occupied territories.

[Severomor]

Quote: Just a human

In February, usually such snowdrifts that after 10 kilometers in the snow a horse can only be shot so that it does not suffer.

They walked along riverbeds. Well, you know that there should be water meadows and grass remaining from the summer)))). By the way, no one was harvesting oats for them. The horsemen fed on hay and grass. In natural habitats, they are unpretentious and quite hardy, and in winter during tebenevka they are able to break snow in the steppe and eat last year's grass.
Here we come to the concept - tebenevka.
Winter tebenevka steppe horses is the following: herd of horses slowpassing hundreds of meters per day, moves along the steppe, looking for stale grass under the snow. Animals that way save their energy costs.
However, in the campaign against Russia, these horses had to walk 10-20-30 and even more kilometers a day in the cold, carrying luggage or a warrior. Did horses manage to replenish their energy consumption under such conditions?
Another interesting question: if the Mongolian horses were digging snow and grass was found under it, then what should be the area of ​​their daily food supply? (c) - that's all, and then think)

[Opera]

And you do not wait! You will now be accused of Fomenkovism, etc. Everything and business!))) There were Mongols and everything - a traditional story! I’m interested in traditionalists who don’t think much of Mongolian blood ?! Now all this is very easy to find out!) What not ?! Absolutely ?! Paradox...)))

[lwimu1976]

What kind of blood?
and people were beaten from an old man to an infant; and the city and churches of the holy fire you betrayed, and all the monasteries, and the village burned down and many names were taken after that. ”

[lwimu1976]

Also beating the prince and the princess, and husbands and wives and children, a prince and a black-faced, a priest, an ov fire, and a mosque, a reproach to blueberries and priests and good wives and ladies to mothers and sisters; But the bishop is God: after all, for the rest of the year, always step away the city. And who, brothers, will not cry about seven, who has left us alive, what a necessary and bitter death of a lift. Yes, and then we seem to have been afraid of Bykhom and Grekho / l.123. / Our people were crying because they were breathing in day and night; we take a breath day and night, care for our brothers ’possessions and hatred

[Loess]

As for oats, I am not an expert, but the steppe horses are more accustomed to eating grass from under the snow, and not oats in any way. But in terms of movement in the snow, so after the first hundred horses the second one is no longer in the snow, but on a normally trampled site and nothing prevents after an hour to change the tired first hundred horses to the second, third and so on.

[Prometey]

Quote: Less

but the steppe horses are more accustomed to eating grass from under the snow, and not oats at all.

So ordinary horses feed on grass and hay, not 100% oats.

[Loess]

I know that just ordinary horses are fed hay in the winter, they won’t last long on the grass from under the snow, unlike the steppe ones. Nevertheless, the nomads did not hunt by hay harvesting in the steppe.

[Yuri Lazarev]

In the steppe, horses eat grass from under the snow. So in the steppe beyond the Volga there is almost no snow. And on the Russian Plain, not a hoof, but a shovel, you have to dig in the sweat of your face. In Mogul, even now, God forbid, the snow falls, a mass death of cattle begins.

[avt]

Quote: Just a human

I come from almost those places. I have one question for historians. In those days, there were no roads as such. In February, usually such snowdrifts that after 10 kilometers in the snow a horse can only be shot so that it does not suffer.

Well, here's the old cavalryman, the hussar writes straight

Quote: Varyag_0711

moreover, it is necessary to take into account the unpretentiousness and endurance of precisely the Tatar-Mongolian horses, they get their own food in winter conditions in the same Kazakh steppes, which are much scarcer than the lands near Vladimir.

Taka understand the horse that she is a snowdrift to the very balls .... or she will be waist-deep .... on the drum-raked, gobble up the straw and then jump into battle. Only refuel diesel fuel .... uh-uh-uh, drive it into the snowdrifts. And after that they went, and at all they ate roots from the devoured stubble, then they dig up frozen ground with a hoof, gobble it up and jump into battle! And a proverb appeared - hoof digs earth ?? From the mungals! Exactly after the invasion! I heard it myself ....

[Just a man]

Yes, I already understood, the horses fed on the holy spirit, and all the Mongols were outstanding skiers. Ichthyander x ....

[avt]

Quote: Just a human

and all the Mongols were outstanding skiers. Ichthyander x ....

Exactly ! That's right - water skiing on a frozen river! And a horse wanders along the shore and rakes snowdrifts in search of food!

[Just a man]

Another point in those parts from December to February is 8-10 hours of daylight. And when they all had time. When you start asking simple life questions, historians begin to carry such nonsense that it’s just fine to shoot

[avt]

Quote: Just a human

When you start asking simple life questions, historians begin to carry such nonsense that it’s just fine to shoot

So ALREADY! A film by Bodrov Sr. about Genghis. Klovrat understand our.

[aviator65]

Guys, this is just getting ridiculous! No need to ask anything. You just need to stupidly believe everything that was written in the "canonical" presentation of our history, which was written for us by yourself you know who.

[tlauicol]

and who writes a new story from Harvard to you? Pushkin or what? You are ready to believe these “patriots”, if only they would repeat to you about the great mission and purity of blood!
If only I could get acquainted with my gurus, lovers of the right story

[aviator65]

Are you talking about Lomonosov, for example?
As for the “new” story, in my time they passed it in the 8th grade, and then, in the 9th, also the “newest” one!

Quote: Tlauicol

You are ready to believe these “patriots”, if only they would repeat to you about the great mission and purity of blood!

You would put things in order in your thoughts, otherwise you would mix everything together. Maybe someone tells you this rubbish, I personally do not.

[Rey_ka]

then the climate was different and people and horses and the engine were faster than high cross

[avt]

Quote: Rey_ka

then the climate was different and people and horses and the engine were faster than high cross

Az sinful about entom and not thinking! But EXACTLY! And then Velmi scientists, climatologists, talked about a “small ice age” And in those summers ... well, in the sense of winter, they all swamped towards Nova Gorod ... However, there was a junction - well, the evil mungals didn’t know about it, they they read the trilogy of Jan and thought that they would drown in the swamps, from that they didn’t go to NovaGorod, just along the frozen rivers to Vladimir! They didn’t even pop into Smolensk, well, take the city by storm. Probably they knew for sure - there were no snowdrifts on the road, to rake horses, nor dry grass with roots under it to feed the horse train.

Quote: Nagaibak

Even in winter, she can feed on grass from under the snow, raking it with her hooves - to shade.

Maybe. I don’t doubt it, I believe

Quote: Nagaibak

Researchers such as Przhevalsky, Kozlov and many others focused on the excellent endurance that the Mongolian breed of horses has, and its low consumption of feed and care. An ordinary horse will effortlessly ride with a rider up to 80 km per day, and during day trips even up to 120 km.

I can’t understand one thing, although Russia is kaneshno richest country, where we have such a quantity

Quote: Nagaibak

Even in winter, she can feed on grass from under the snow, raking it with her hooves - to shade.

300 thousand mungal personnel, with clockwork horses, plus a convoy ???? Yes, after ONE trip there is not that dry grass - the trees would gobble up everything and we would have a desert like Karakum, but with snow. Yes, at least 10 thousand horsemen, without a wagon train, all one, no matter how beautiful a horse would be owned, everything would have gone on foot, the yoke would have taken a supply of fodder. Here, let's look at the same Gumilyov about the tohtamysh’s and Tamerlan’s cut. the guys, but why the movement of troops northward, GUMILYOV, not a sinner, is linked precisely by climatic conditions, namely, the opening of the feed base with seasonal warming - with the appearance of grass. What is it!? The nomads were lazy and lost the skills of military campaigns in the WINTER ??? By the way! Why Batu didn’t popper with Europe in winter ??? Well, after quite a successful winter raid on Russia. Well, if there is one.

. In May 1241, Moravia, Slovakia was captured. He moved further to Poland, Alemania (Germany).

Why not in January?

[rkkasa xnumx]

Quote: avt

climate scientists used to say about the "small ice age"

MLP began at the beginning of the fourteenth century, and at the time of the fall of Vladimir, there was a medieval climatic optimum. The climate then roughly corresponded to the current one.

[Yuri Lazarev]

The optimum was in the 10-11th century. Even Greenland turned green.

[Luga]

Quote: avt

Az sinful about entom and not thinking!

You, my dear, you simply amaze with your wit. When the stock of fun runs out, try to educate yourself a bit about some of the details of the invasion. Today there are a lot of your opuses here, there is no desire to seek out quotes, I will speak essentially.
Only a specialist like you can confuse a Mongol with Khazarin. Probably having seen enough of the miniatures from the Radziwill annals or something like that, I don’t know where you looked at the paisas. These are two completely different cultures. As for Svyatoslav, he simply defeated the Khazar state, but they destroyed it, gnawed the remains, the steppes, so do not scuffle.
What Mongolian horses ate during the campaign I have repeatedly explained, including talking about it today. Do not be lazy, read, I do not want to copy-paste the same thing.
Under the Torzhok, the Mongols came in late February, and took it in early March. A maximum of a month later, a debauchery began, poking around in the marshes at that time was ... well, let's say, scary, especially if you expect to go back to the steppes. Of course you wouldn’t be scared, I understand. It remains only to regret that you did not command the Mongols in 1238.
They didn’t tuck near Smolensk, because they weren’t enough already and were in a hurry home, they didn’t want to make a hook, they were tired.
They got stuck near Kozelsk, they thought the small town, we’ll manage for a time, but it didn’t work out, there weren’t enough strength. You can’t leave it - you lose authority. Two tumens from the steppe had to call for help, only then could they take the city. And while you call them, while you wait, here are seven weeks and it has passed, at the same time they have waited for the mud.
About 300 thousands of Mongols were denied in the last century, it’s only in your head, so to speak, such figures have remained. Learn the materiel.

Quote: avt

Why Batu didn’t popper with Europe in winter ???

This is already just beyond ... And when do you think he did it? The campaign began in November (!) 1240 by the siege of Kiev. The Mongols reached Europe only in the spring, they rested in the summer and went to Poland and Hungary in 1241, again, in the winter.
Learn, read scientific literature or at least Wikipedia, you will already know at least something. And somehow it turns out that since you are the smartest here, so you don’t need to know anything. It is necessary, my dear, it is necessary.

[avt]

Only a specialist like you can confuse a Mongol with Khazarin. Probably having seen enough of the miniatures from the Radziwill annals or something like that, I don’t know where you looked at the paisas.

The Cossack rode on a skipping rope with the Radzivilovsky list under his armpit. It’s time, darling, to move on to Byzantine, Arab, and Latin sources, since this is not a sacrament with seven seals.

Quote: Luga

This is already just beyond ...

That's right !

Quote: Luga

The campaign began in November (!) 1240 by the siege of Kiev.

How much did he take? Do not worry - 9 (NINE) days and .........

Quote: Luga

in the summer we rested and in 1241 we went to Poland and Hungary, again, in the winter.

And winter began to be beginning

with a blow to Hungary - in early March. 10 March 1241 Baidar crossed the Vistula at Sandomierz, capturing the city.

Oh how! Until March mungals went from Kiev to Khungaria! And December, January, February ..... they spent in the hardest battles ... With whom? Probably with the Sumerian. Or with the Zaporizhzhya Kozakama?

Quote: avt

In May 1241, Moravia, Slovakia was captured.

Europa C! Or is the Crazy House in which everything mixed up by dates? So even afraid to bother you with classic

Quote: Luga

Teach materiel.

Though ....

Quote: Luga

It is necessary, my dear, it is necessary.

To learn to use at least a search engine and to delve into what the Internet produces, specifically, by date. And for starters, it’s like ... well, try to start from the seasons, well, which of the four refers to the corresponding month. Then it may be realized that the western company Batu was launched in March and by the fall it broke the main resistance organized. Then went, “cleansing” and .... left. Why is a separate song.

[tlauicol]

November - Kiev. December - Galich, Volhynia. January - Lublin. February - Sandomierz. March - Krakow
December - Buda. Pest January - Zagreb
Danube crossed the ice

[co-creator]

Quote: Tlauicol

November - Kiev. December - Galich, Volhynia. January - Lublin. February - Sandomierz. March - Krakow
December - Buda. Pest January - Zagreb
Danube crossed the ice

Hitler envies in hell.

[the lord]

But Hitler really has something to envy. The Mongols retained their main conquests for a long time.

[co-creator]

Yes, he would have to transplant an army on horseback and in a month he would conquer all of Europe.

[the lord]

If in the 14th century he happened to fight, then yes. It would be very effective

[Luga]

Quote: avt

Quote: Luga
The campaign began in November (!) 1240 by the siege of Kiev.
How much did he take? Do not worry - 9 (NINE) days and .........

Okay, I’ll enlighten you, I will track, so to speak, on your virgin brain with my dirty traditionalist paws.
To begin with, I have to admit that I was mistaken in the start date of the campaign - not November, but September, although this is not so important. But Kiev really fell on November 19 1240 after a ten-week, not nine-day siege (from September 05 to November 19). Then began the winter conquest of southern Russia - Vladimir Volynsky, Galich, for a month and a half 500 km. Already in January 1241 - the capture of Lublin and the Swirltail, the first half of February (and not March) - the capture of Sandomierz, the 14 of February the Battle of Tursk, the 18 of March - near Khmelnik, the 09 of April - near Legnica, the 11 of April - at Chaillot. The active stage of the campaign ended, from that time on - sluggish movements in the conquered countries, there are no serious sieges, no battles right up to the end of 1241. January 1242 - siege and assault of Esztergom and spring 1242 - return to the steppes.

Quote: avt

with a blow to Hungary - in early March. 10 March 1241 Baidar crossed the Vistula at Sandomierz, capturing the city.

This is you writing about the reoccurrence of the already ruined Sandomierz. Not understood, it happens. Apparently, often.

Quote: avt

itata: avt
In May 1241, Moravia, Slovakia was captured.

These areas then belonged to Hungary, whose troops were destroyed at Chaillot - the last major battle of this campaign (not counting the assault on Esztergom). It was on the territory of Slovakia and Moravia that the Mongols rested all summer before approaching Esztergom.

Quote: avt

Oh how! Until March mungals went from Kiev to Khungaria! And December, January, February ..... they spent in the hardest battles ... With whom? Probably with the Sumerian. Or with the Zaporizhzhya Kozakama?

Now you know with whom. I do not expect thanks, for I’m not sure that the contents of your skull will survive such knowledge .. If you tell me about any company conducted by the Mongols in Europe in the summer of 1241, I will be grateful.
I also want to note that "in the summer we rested and went to 1241 already in Poland and Hungary, again, in the winter." - there is a slight inaccuracy. In December 1241, the Mongols, of course, did not go to Poland, only to Hungary and it was necessary to use the verb "returned" and not "gone." However, you still do not understand such delights. You have your ...
Continue to watch RenTV, read Fomenko - you still have nothing to do above this level.

[Nagaibak]

Just a person "I'm waiting for a sensible answer. In Mongolia, horses live in the open air all year round (at temperatures up to + 30 ° C in summer and up to -40 ° C in winter) and look for food on their own. Researchers such as Przhevalsky, Kozlov and many others , focused on the excellent endurance that the Mongolian breed of horses has, and its undemanding forage and care. An ordinary horse can easily walk with a rider up to 80 km per day, and with one-day hikes - even up to 120 km. Breeding horses for a long A number of generations in a sharply continental and arid climate, with a cold winter and hot summer, with large fluctuations in the seasons in the level of nutrition and water supply, has developed a peculiar constitutional type in the Mongolian horse. A characteristic feature of the Mongol horse is its high adaptability to extreme cold. expressed in a squat build, cylindrical shape of the body, deposition of large layers of fat in the body, thick neck rst cover. All this helps to protect the horse's body from excessive heat transfer. The well-developed ability to store fat also serves another purpose - to create in the body the energy reserves necessary to support life during the critical periods of winter and summer drought. It should also be noted the ability of the Mongolian horse to be content with a small amount of water, which is very important for Mongolia, which is insufficiently provided with water bodies. But in Yakutia there is more snow than yours. "The Yakut breed of horses is the most frost-resistant, with an undercoat and wool 8-15 cm long. Even in winter, it can feed on grass from under the snow, raking it with hooves, - shade. In Yakutia, horses live in the open air all year round (at temperatures up to + 40 ° C in summer and up to -60 ° C in winter) and they look for food on their own. "

[ver_]

... dear, along the way was the Karakum desert and the impenetrable Thekla Makan desert (desert of death) with a length of 1000 km and a width of 400 km. In this desert, not a drop of water ... Only a camel could pass ...

[lwimu1976]

Horror! And were the wells?
Capacitive! Or poisoned?

[Nagaibak]

ver ".. dear, along the way was the Karakum desert and the impenetrable Thekla desert"
Dear))) for those who believe in the domain I inform. This was not a problem for people. GENERALLY!)))

[Severomor]

Quote: Nagaibak

Even in winter, she can feed on grass from under the snow, raking it with her hooves - to shade.

But tebenevka and war are two different things. We take not a dozen horses carrying cargo, but an army in the campaign and battles. .....
???? here are questions and a bunch of sources about the size of the army from 30 to 000 people (respectively 500 horses - 000 million 90 thousand)))))).
Encyclopedic Dictionary F.A. Brockhaus and I.A. Efron
Winter T. is almost continuous starvation, responding hard even on the strongest body; all the while the cattle is in the open. Only recently, nomads began to set up small cattle camps in the form of protection against snowstorms - but these rooms are low, cramped, completely dark, and during the thaw the stalls turn into a continuous swamp. Nomads do very little hay supplies for the winter, targeting them mainly for cattle unable to shade in deep snow - for cattle and for camels; hay is given to sheep, goats, horses only in exceptional cases - during a strong snowstorm or sleet. Winter shade-grazing pastures are located near wintering grounds arranged near rivers rich in vegetation of ravines and flood meadows. No matter how rich the shade-grazing pastures are, the slightest adverse atmospheric phenomenon is detrimental to the nomad's economy. Especially a lot of cattle die from blizzards; rich nomads in 2-3 days sometimes turn into beggars; So, in the winter of 1879/80, in one Turgai region. up to 42% of all livestock died, and in 1890/91 horses up to 48%, large horn. cattle 32,2%, sheep 33%, goats 32%, camels 22%.
Ya. Ya. Polferov, "Turgai Region" (1896); V. Mikhailov, "Kyrgyz Horse Breeding" (1894); A. I. Dobrosmelov, "Cattle breeding in the Turgai region" (1895).

[Nagaibak]

Severomor "But tebenevka and war are two different things. We take not a dozen horses carrying cargo, but an army in a campaign and battles."
They did not attack Russia after many kilometers of crossing from Mongolia. Before that, they defeated Volga Bulgaria.))) From the wiki “In 1229, the Bulgars and Polovtsy were defeated by the Mongols at the Yaik (Ural) River. In 1232, the Mongols reached the place where the Zhukot River flows into the Kama.
Finally, in 1236, the Mongol army, led by Subedai, ravaged the entire Volga-Kama Bulgaria.
The same autumn came from the eastern countries to the Bulgarian land of the godlessness of the Tatars and took the glorious Great City of Bulgaria and beaten with arms and old man and to a young and old baby and took a lot of goods and burned their city with fire and the whole land of their captivity. "
The Mongols went to Volga Bulgaria for more than one year.))) Who is talking about anything at all?)))

[Yuri Lazarev]

Only here in Mongolia, there is almost none. And in Yakutia there is very little. Look at the amount of precipitation in the winter for these regions and in Central Russia. In addition, in central Russia, thaw is thawed, after which the snow turns into ice, so that grass is harvested with crowbar necessary, but horses do not know how to use them.

[Nagaibak]

Yuri Lazarev "And there is very little of it in Yakutia"
You can immediately see the man from Yakutia.))) Or I saw her on TV.)))

[Ural resident]

I also thought about this, and Lev Gumilyov wrote a lot about it, but the invasion took place.
We greatly underestimate the people of that time - they solved many difficult tasks, just like we do in our time. Probably this question was thought out, besides, much was captured, and the prisoners worked as slaves, they probably collected feed from the surrounding villages.
The Mongols generally put all the work, including preparing for the siege on the prisoners - before storming the cities - they cleaned the neighborhood. Then slaves in the front rows threw ditches to fall asleep.

[avt]

Quote: Resident of the Urals

We greatly underestimate the people of that time -

,, OTHERS! Not we "

Quote: Resident of the Urals

. Then slaves in the front rows threw ditches to fall asleep.

In the cold? Prisoners? Yes, it’s really real - the miracle of the heroes! And why the prisoners, if the miracles are heroes!?

Quote: Resident of the Urals

probably in the surrounding villages forage was collected.

Whoa! What evidence was not only written, but also in people's memory. Under the same Kozelsky, when several villages supplied themselves quite a fodder for these ,, mungals with yoke. ”Smolensk was like no one stormed, but who wanted to butt with yoke "- they shortened it by the head and no one referred to the swamps, although there were no fewer there than then near NovaGorod. So there was someone in Russia who decided to attract nomads in the Civil War and ensured the logistics of a successful cavalry raid. By the way, it’s completely unseen at that time - it was quite comic to Russia to bring the same Polovtsy to its side, and then the Khazars were the same in force when they were, quite a land up to the Vyatichi, they were "roofing" without giving Kiev a tribute from those places. Such are the times and customs. That's just the scale, "yoke" was really not a tactical, but a strategic operation.

[lwimu1976]

Kiev then Sambat nicknamed in Khazar! (Konstantin Bagryanorodnogo!)

[marline]

Quote: avt

There must have been someone in Russia who, in the Civil War, decided to attract the nomads and ensured the logistics of a successful cavalry raid.

Is fecit cui prodest. It seems to me that you are hinting at Yaroslav Vsevolodovich?

[Paranoid50]

Quote: avt

quite in Russia it was comme il faut to attract the same Polovtsians to their side, and then cut themselves with them

Duc, classic - "temporary travel companions." Vladimir Ilyich Lenin in this matter was not original.

[Luga]

Quote: Just a human

In those days, there were no roads as such.

But how, excuse me, did people move? There were roads, from village to village, and from village to village, and from village to city, and between cities. There were carts and sleighs that moved along these roads. Every year, “Christmas fodder” (such a tax) was collected, meat from each village was brought to villages, and from there to the city to the prince.
I have already explained horses about food several times, but I repeat.
The population of Russia lived mainly in villages and villages. Each yard had at least one horse, a cow and small livestock, more often more. For the winter for this cattle fodder was stocked in such quantities that it was enough until May, when the first grass grew. From November to May, cattle stood in the barn. At the beginning of February, in every yard there was a supply of feed for livestock for February, March and April - i.e. for 90 days. Plus grain reserves for the nutrition of people themselves. In total we get at least 90 servings of feed for a horse, as much for a cow (already 180) and a few pounds of grain - one yard (!) Provided the daily requirement of at least hundreds (!) Of riders with spare horses. Considering that the Mongolian horses were really unpretentious and endurance, and we considered the reserves to be the minimum, I think that we can say with confidence that the looting of one three-yard village provided fodder and food for at least three hundred horsemen for one day, and, most likely , a lot more.
Daytime crossing on an ordinary horse in normal conditions is about 40 km, Mongolian (in any case, modern) can be more. The Mongols moved on average 15-20 km per day (great speed for that time!) - there was time to call in a village and rob and feed. Nothing supernatural.

[Severomor]

Quote: Luga

The Mongols moved on average 15-20 km per day (a tremendous speed for that time!) - there was time to call in a village and rob and feed. Nothing supernatural.

“We could never understand those who so stubbornly uphold the idea that Napoleon should have chosen a different path for his return trip, and not the one along which he came. Where could he have been content with the army besides stockpiled warehouses? What could give the undeveloped terrain of the army, which could not lose time and was forced to constantly settle bivouacs in large masses? Which food commissioner would agree to go ahead of this army to requisition food, and which Russian institution would follow his orders? After all, in a week the whole army would starve to death. ”
Carl von Clausewitz “1812 Year”

[tlauicol]

it is about the retreat of the defeated army, pursued on the heels, and not about a victorious raid

[Luga]

Quote: Severomor

Carl von Clausewitz “1812 Year”

I don’t understand something: are you comparing 1812 year with 1238? Hundred thousandth mainly Napoleon’s foot army with the forty thousand horse horde of the Mongols? The Russian Empire and Vladimir Russia? These are completely different, incompatible things. Do not forget that in 1812 a guerrilla war was organized at the state level and Napoleonic foragers were simply physically destroyed, which in the realities of the XIII century. it simply could not be.

[Nagaibak]

In the Great Patriotic War, the Belov cavalry corps went into a breakthrough in the rear of the Germans in January 1942, came out of the breakthrough in June 1942. The remnants left, but they did. Ammunition and food were dropped from planes, plus trophies.))) I DO DOUBT Doubt THROWED OAT FOR HORSE.))) "The Belov corps did not enter the breakthrough in its entirety. Two rifle divisions, all tanks, almost all artillery, and rear services remained behind the Warsaw highway.
The corps, therefore, consisted of the 1st and 2nd Guards, 41, 57 and 75th Cavalry Divisions, as well as several ski battalions. Three light raid cavalry divisions, formed by the abbreviated states of 1941, were much weaker than the guard:
The 41st number is 1291 people, the 57th - 1706 people, the 75th - 2760 people.
According to various sources, ski battalions had from 800 to 2 thousand people.
Thus, the corps numbered about 19 people. "But in more detail ... 000st Guards Cavalry Corps:
The 2nd Cavalry Corps stationed at the beginning of the war in Bessarabia was understaffed in December 1941 near Kashira and renamed the 1st Cavalry Corps. It includes the 5th and 9th cavalry divisions. After the corps suffered heavy losses on the Southern Front and lost its entire fleet in the Stary Oskol area, it was transferred in November 1941 to the Central Front and in the area of ​​the Mikhnevo railway station (between Serpukhov and Kashira) was understaffed with the so-called march squadrons from Siberia (approx. 4000 people on horseback, without weapons and saddle equipment). After that, the 1st Guards Cavalry Corps of Belov began to count about 9000 people. combat units and subunits and approx. 1000 people logistics support services.
Structure (organization):
The corps included the 5th and 9th cavalry divisions, reconnaissance battalion, communications battalion and staff squadron. Each division had a population of approx. 4000 people. The reconnaissance battalion and communications battalion each had 2 squadrons of 75 people each. and the staff squadron had a strength of 150 people. The 5th Cavalry Division included the 11th, 96th, 131st, 160th cavalry regiments. The 9th cavalry division included the 5th, 8th, 136th, 72nd cavalry regiments. In addition, each cavalry division included
1 tank regiment numbering about 300 people., Consisting of 4 squadrons, together armed with 60 medium tanks (T26 and T32), 1 engineer squadron, 200 people. on horseback (in the south half of the squadron was placed on 40 trucks), 1 communication squadron of 200 people. with one 11A.K. radio station mounted on 2 special covered trucks. 2 5AK stations, each mounted on a single 1,5-ton Ford car, and 1 RSB station, also mounted on one truck. 3 platoons of communications squadrons each had 10 field telephones and 13-15 km of cable. 1 anti-aircraft artillery division, consisting of 4 horse-drawn batteries, each with 4 guns, namely 3 batteries with 76 mm guns and 1 howitzer battery. 2 mortar divisions, each with 2 batteries, armed with 4 108-mm mortars and 120 mm horse-drawn (4 horses). 1 chemical defense squadron for approx. 40 trucks, fully motorized (trucks left in the south).
Armament:
Each regiment included 3 saber squadrons, 1 machine gun squadron, which was armed with 18 machine guns, 10-15 mortars of 52 mm and 82 mm, 1 regiment artillery battery, armed with 4 76 mm guns and 3 45 mm anti-tank guns .
Each cavalry regiment includes 1 half-squadron, 1 sapper platoon and 1 chemical defense platoon, as well as 1 economic platoon.

[Severomor]

Good example, heroic. Of course, the main forage was mined, but

The teams specially dressed up by us were looking for goods in the forests and swamps. Of course, not everyone managed to find. In this case, it was necessary to detect goods with food fodder and fuel, crashed in the fall.

- The main thing - they did not leave horses, did not leave their faithful friends! And through the trenches, and through the wire, and through the minefields they were led! There were daredevils who overcame the entire defensive line without getting off their horses. And so they rode on horseback into our battle formations. By God, Pavel Alekseevich, they pleased me, - said Vasily Stepanovich.

Belov P.A. "Moscow is behind us"

“11.06.42/4/4, offensive operations to cleanse the rear of the XNUMXth Army are carried out successfully. K. Unfortunately, the main forces of the Belov cavalry corps and the XNUMXth Airborne Brigade are leaving south ... "
“16.06.42 g. On the site of the army group“ Center ”Belov went in the direction of Kirov. This is not an honor for us ... "
“17.06.42/XNUMX/XNUMX, it rains heavily. Belov’s cavalry corps is now operating west of the city of Kirov. This man nevertheless forced us to put into operation a total of seven German divisions ... "
Halder diary
By the way, in Halder’s diary, Gen. Major Belov is mentioned much more than any of the Soviet military commanders

[Nagaibak]

Severomor "At the same time, we had to find loads with food and fuel that crashed during the fall."
And all six months they fed the horses with the found forage?)))

[Severomor]

Quote: Nagaibak

And all six months they fed the horses with the found forage?)))

Of course not. Just an example of what it was. If you read Belova, then this "found forage" dropped from an airplane, by the way, an attack is described there normally (it seems not quite successful) to a settlement with warehouses where there is including fodder.
PS Thank you recalled the topic of 1 Guards. Caval Corps, 33rd Army and 4th Airborne Corps

[Nagaibak]

Severomor "by the way, the attack (it seems not quite successful) is normally described there on a settlement with warehouses where there is also fodder."
I just cited as an example that a large cavalry unit was isolated from normal supply and fulfilled its tasks. Zadolbali experts on the Mongols.)))

[co-creator]

Quote: Nagaibak

I just cited as an example that a large cavalry unit was isolated from normal supply and fulfilled its tasks. Zadolbali experts on the Mongols.)))

They wrote to you that the corps was fully supplied with airplanes, plus they knew where the forage reserves were stored (agents from the local population). The fodder was dumped, including so that the horses could make transitions from one point to another. Moreover, a detachment of 9.000 people, of which only 4.000 is on horseback, and this is in the 21st century where everything has long been inhabited, cities, warehouses, townships every 20-30 km. What do you not understand?

[Yuri Lazarev]

Well, yes, and the suckers lived entirely in the villages. Knowing about the invasion, they stockpiled in a visible place and humbly waited for the robbery. Hay is generally kept in haystacks in different stacks. Not to mention the fact that the population in Russia was 300-500 thousand different calculations. Almost a desert. Moreover, the Russians had such an ugly custom when hiding in the forests. at least by the family. Having escaped, these were prepared ahead of time.

[tlauicol]

Zaimki appeared 3 centuries later.

“Frightened by the first invasion, the surviving principalities were preparing hard to fight back! Continuing the internecine struggle, they also quarreled with the Germans and the Lithuanians. In Kiev, the princes, cities of Smolensk, Kiev, Kamenets, Galich, and others changed hands 5 times. Several times. True to their tactics, farmers stored hay and grain in secret bases, in thickets of the forest, protecting them from the beast and carefully masking them. Even traces left after cattle driving were carefully swept along with roads. Yards were burned and rebuilt again - sometimes three times a year, twice a summer, since good-neighborly wars did not stop, they worked until the sweat — by October they were waiting for the Mongols! Some difficulties arose with the cultivation of new grass and bread for the third time — but they dealt with them! When everything was ready, the village again set fire to, and, collecting a simple belongings, and loading (for the umpteenth time) carts managed to dry with hay and grain, set off into the forest .. "
unknown author beg. 13 century

[Luga]

Quote: Tlauicol

"Frightened by the first invasion, the surviving principalities were intensely preparing for the rebuff!

Quote: Tlauicol

unknown author beg. 13 century

This is a joke?
If not, I would very much like to get acquainted with the source.

[tlauicol]

of course a joke. banter!

[brn521]

Quote: Just a human

In those days, there were no roads as such.

In their quality rivers were used. In summer, large cargoes on ships. In winter - small ones on a sleigh.

Quote: Just a human

In February, usually such snowdrifts

It is unknown at that time. The medieval climatic optimum stretched just before the Small Ice Age.

Quote: Just a human

About 300 tons of oats are needed per day

Wheat and rye also come down. Mongolian horses quickly gain fat. Those. You can keep the herd in a village for a couple of days until everyone eats it, and then drive it for almost a week without food. What is not an option?

[Cat]

Quote: Just a man

I come from almost those places. I have one question for historians. In those days, there were no roads as such. In February, usually such snowdrifts that after 10 kilometers in the snow a horse can only be shot so that it does not suffer. The army of the Mongols, or the Tatars, or whatever they are called there, is about 30000. So the horses are about 60000. About 300 tons of oats are needed per day, this is a train of more than 1000 horses, and in the snow. Based on the time and route of movement of the Mongols, places and the number of their clashes in the autumn and winter of 1237-38, their army moved along railway roads on platforms. I am waiting for an sensible answer.

1. Based on the fact that the Mongols were on two-horse and three-horse. The number of horses in the army of Batu Khan is increasing to 90 goals. So a day it was necessary not 000, but 300 tons of oats. The only question is, was oats needed for steppe horses? So let's go in order.
2. Different sources indicate a different number of the population of Vladimir-Suzdal Russ. So let's take the averaged data of 1 souls. To feed himself, a resident of central Russia needed to keep cows, horses, and other small cattle, that is, to harvest hay, sow barley, rye, and oats.
3. If you follow the revolutionary research of ascetics and modern scientists, for feeding you must have 1 pregnant cow for 5 people, 1 horse for 10 people, small cattle - 2-3 heads per person. So there were at least 200 cows, 000 horses and about 100 sheep and goats on the territory of the invasion.
4. If we assume that one cow with a calf consumes hay one and a half times less than a horse, and one horse eats like 100 sheep, then in Russia forage was prepared for half a million horses with a hook. Even if we take into account that not the entire territory of Vladimir-Suzdal Russia was invaded, we will take into account all the packers, shrinkage, rattling in the dry residue where 200 horses can be fed, 000 Mongol horses will not be lost.
5. All sources say that the Mongols were driving. Perhaps just because of the fodder.
Regards Kotische.

[tlauicol]

and this is not counting oats, flax, rye, buckwheat, etc. crops for the population itself, harvested before September + sowing fund

[co-creator]

Quote: Kotischa

The number of horses in the army of Batu Khan is increasing to 90 goals. T

So Batu’s army was only 30.000? How did he manage to conquer such a space with such a meager amount in winter? The tale is not otherwise.

Quote: Kotischa

The only question is, was oats needed for steppe horses?

Without him, a horse could not carry a horseman and luggage, not like fighting.

Quote: Kotischa

we will take into account all the packers, shrinkage, dry shaking where 200 horses can be fed; 000 Mongol horses will not be lost.

You suppose. that all this hay was stacked in large in several huge barns and waited for the arrival of enemies, and then transferred to him?
You suppose. that the local population did not burn these reserves when preparing for defense or escaping into the forest?
How did all this army without forage pass hundreds of kilometers from the first large reserves, that is, cities?
This is called tailoring the necessary information for a specific task. In reality, a large army always carries forage with it.

Quote: Kotischa

5. All sources say that the Mongols were driving. Perhaps just because of the fodder.

Do you think that at that time there was such an attribute as a declaration of war?)

[tlauicol]

A horse cannot carry a rider without oats? Pamagiti world history collapses like a house of cards!

[co-creator]

Quote: Tlauicol

A horse cannot carry a rider without oats? Pamagiti world history collapses like a house of cards!

Who will destroy it?

[the lord]

I think that is foolish. seeing only the worst outcome from the enemy’s invasion and therefore destroying all their fodder, thereby condemning themselves and their relatives to starvation, even after defeating the invaders, there were not so many fodders and the Mongols found much

[co-creator]

Quote: znavel

I think that is foolish. seeing only the worst outcome from the enemy’s invasion and therefore destroying all their fodder, thereby condemning themselves and their relatives to starvation, even after defeating the invaders, there were not so many fodders and the Mongols found much

This is a military tactic. Destroy the fodder so that the enemy army is starving and cleaned away. If in summer and spring the same horses and people can find their own food, then in winter there is nothing besides the local population’s reserves. 50-100 km without forage and everyone will rest. Believe me, people at that time understood this better than you.

[the lord]

Those. did everyone know in advance that the Mongols would pass there and be sure to win, and not the princes would overthrow them? Yes, all the nostradamuses lived there! You yourself sit a couple of minutes (you can take longer) and think: the enemy has come, part of the fodder, of course, can be destroyed, except that it is collected and stored in remote places, in flood meadows, for example. But when the enemy approaches, it’s somehow out of place to sit and wait for him. Usually, they quickly and quickly run to escape behind walls or into the thicket of the forest to borrow. Those. the version with the widespread destruction of forage disintegrates as fiction.
Besides - how to survive in a situation where everything was burned, and the enemy was beaten and still live and live until spring, and you, the fool has nothing?))))))

[co-creator]

Quote: znavel

Those. did everyone know in advance that the Mongols would pass there and be sure to win, and not the princes would overthrow them? Yes, all the nostradamuses lived there!

Well, the Mongols have come many times, right? If, for the first time, we could be Ivanivim nivic and understand nothing, then life teaches. Although it’s not very clear how naive you can be if under your nose they destroy your eternal enemy Bulgaria.

Quote: znavel

You yourself sit a couple of minutes (you can take longer) and think: the enemy has come, part of the fodder, of course, can also be destroyed, except that it is collected and stored in remote places, in flood meadows, for example. But when the enemy approaches, it’s somehow out of place to sit and wait for him. Usually, they quickly and quickly run to escape behind walls or into the thicket of the forest to borrow. Those. the version with the widespread destruction of forage disintegrates as fiction.

First you need to answer for yourself what is Rus of that time. These are several large cities for the Principality and many villages where the inhabitants are several dozen people. These villages are scattered quite far from each other. Winter reserves in these villages for troops of even several thousand people are simply insignificant. This means the only large stocks of fodder in large cities, monasteries or where fairs are held. We conclude that it is enough to destroy the fodder in several places and the enemy will be left without it.

Quote: znavel

Besides - how to survive in a situation where everything was burned, and the enemy was beaten and still live and live until spring, and you, the fool has nothing?))))))

Well, when the enemy takes everything for himself, apparently it will be easier to survive, right?

[the lord]

In fact, the Mongols of the current came three times, once beating us far from Russia at Kalka, and our ancestors somehow did not care about this from the word at all. But they had enough time for decision-making. I believe that the "watchman" (or intelligence, for example) worked at that time somehow. This perfectly characterizes our ancestors as an organized and centralized state. And naivety was also shown by absolute disagreement regarding general defense. That they were some kind of Bulgaria. when they did nothing after the first trip to Russia)))). That is not your Nostradamus and the villagers do not hide their fodder, do not destroy it in the hope that the prince will also carry the governors out of trouble))))
Forage in the cities stored say? People were not enough and lived rosy? Duck in this and the survival factor, there is where to hide and where to hide. Princely and boyar reserves could be centered, only many years of experience, I think. suggested not all in one basket to keep. ))))) Somehow one-sidedly you evaluate the behavior of our ancestors. Now, after your conclusion from the second paragraph, situuvine is imagined - you destroyed the fodder in these several places (and in fact, having destroyed the lion's share of the agricultural GDP of that time) how to survive after that if you win? And in the event of a defeat, I believe that it doesn’t matter what the enemy got, or not. The dead do not shame and do not ask for food.
And the third is your maaaasenky abzatsik- yes, the enemy will take all the live hard, but less people will remain, and here is just to be helpful all sorts of "nest egg" forage whether zolotishka whether, on the right to own that you are our ancestors somehow refuse somehow survived b. The Mongols were not the first. Since ancient times, it was necessary to fight with robbers of all stripes

[Yuri Lazarev]

This is taking into account that all the people in the villages were impenetrable suckers and did not hide anything in the forests, waiting for them to be robbed.

[tlauicol]

Quote: Yuri Lazarev

This is taking into account that all the people in the villages were impenetrable suckers and did not hide anything in the forests, waiting for them to be robbed.

yeah, in all the principalities, farmers from July harvested grass and drove it away to the forest, and there they masked the sheep, knowing in advance that the Mongols would come in December or February . And with the onset of winter, they burned their homes on Sun. case and slaughtered cattle

[co-creator]

Quote: Tlauicol

yeah, in all the principalities, farmers from July harvested grass and drove it away to the forest, and there they masked the sheep, knowing in advance that the Mongols would come in December or February

No, the Mongols had invisibility cloaks.
Hay burns beautifully, although for you this is apparently a secret.

Quote: Tlauicol

And with the onset of winter, they burned their homes on Sun. case and slaughtered cattle

No, they were waiting for a couple of thousand Mongols to pass and take everything away. So funnier and more interesting.

[Opera]

Quote: Severomor

However, in the campaign against Russia, these horses had to walk 10-20-30 and even more kilometers a day in the cold, carrying luggage or a warrior. Did horses manage to replenish their energy consumption under such conditions?

However ... And luggage and provisions and a Mongol warrior and loot also ...))) And to cover such distances ... And siege weapons still ... Oh!))) And you still need to fight on such a horse as then ?! They say there were additional war horses ... Is it true that they all ate something with their horses ?!

[the lord]

Duck Russia has never been a country in which there was nothing to eat. All was in abundance. Partly because of this, they did not greatly succeed in technology and science; there was no need for intensity of production.

[Prometey]

Who in the subject - clarify. Why do fairy tales about some stone-throwing machines appear all the time? Well, what good could they be? Trebuchet bullets a stone along a hinged path. This stone still has to get to a certain place and more than once in order to at least break a wooden picket fence (greetings from the game Medieval 2).
Walls and towers tried to smash with huge stones
How huge? A ton, two? Then the sizes of "vice itself" are of interest. And yes, where did they take cobblestones, and even in winter. They just do not roll on the roads. Probably a quarry nearby was opened and dragged from there.

[Opera]

Here you stop tormenting traditional historians and their admirers with your questions !!!) It was told to you once and for all - Mongolian horses are very unpretentious! Highly! It is necessary if then the stones will be dragged along with the rest of the Mongolian belongings. and they will feed themselves and will find the owner, but will not find - they will steal! Such horses ... Ours did not have such. Trouble! Do you speak stone-throwing machines? I have to! Is it not clear what ?!

[Ural resident]

I also doubt about stone-throwing machines. Although it is believed that the Mongols allegedly exported all artisans and engineers in previous wars, and they made siege weapons. Maybe they did, maybe not. Of course, there have been technologies for a long time already - if you bring with you blanks, iron parts, plaits, etc., and use wood in place, then it is possible. As a child, we made unpretentious catapults from improvised materials - throws at 100 meters were thrown. But all this immediately broke down, and of course there was no knowledge and skills, what can we say about the army - if you want and organization, you can build a village in a day. Was there a need to throw stones? Rather, they set fire to the walls, and even dismantled at the site of the attack - there were many prisoners.

[brn521]

Quote: Resident of the Urals

Rather set fire to the walls

Log houses filled with earth do not burn.

Quote: Resident of the Urals

Was there a need to throw stones?

Or ram a wall to pick. But the ram needs a convenient approach to the wall.

[tlauicol]

does history mean rams and vices? so many difficulties from them

[Ural resident]

Honestly, I only expressed an assumption. Of course not an expert on the assault on wooden walls. I studied enough of the storming of cities during the Crusades, but there was mostly stone. I didn’t know how wooden walls were broken. And nowhere did I find an intelligible answer. Common phrases only. If someone has a detailed description, I will read it with pleasure. Surely there was a set of actions - such as engineering solutions, embankments, undermines, arson of piled logs, sawing, parsing.
Although I still don’t understand how you can climb such a wall at all, you can’t even put the ladder down below, especially when oil is poured on top of you.

[brn521]

Quote: Resident of the Urals

Although I still don’t understand how you can climb such a wall at all, you can’t even put the ladder down below,

You can rest the staircase anywhere. The problem is with the defenders who used the top of the wall as a shooting range and did not allow these stairs to be used normally. There were no towers then. It was this upper part of the wall that they smashed with stone throwers, so that the defenders had nowhere to sit normally and the opportunity to climb up ..

[lwimu1976]

In Ryazan places there is a flagstone: Don, Beautiful Sword, native Ptan. Yes and Moscow is white-stone!

[lwimu1976]

But why a stone? A tree burns! And Olga knew for 300 years!

[Luga]

Quote: Prometey

How huge? A ton, two?

During the siege of Chernigov, the Mongols threw stones which, "could not lift four people" (there is no time to look for an exact quote from the annals). At the expense of “breaking down the towers” ​​this, of course, is overkill, but the wooden and even stone walls of such tools were quite capable. The stones themselves, as a rule, lay along the edges of the plowed fields, where they were dragged when clearing these same fields for plowing. Such piles can still be found in rural areas where, in the late times, they were not taken away for construction.
And to build a primitive trebuchet, if you know how, in general is not difficult.

[lwimu1976]

The glacier did not reach Chernihiv! True granite outcrops on the Dnieper in Ovruch. Ian threw frostbitten parts of the trunks of apple trees. (Hello! He lived in Osmino.)

[Luga]

Quote: lwimu1976

(Hello! Lived in Osmino.)

Welcome. I haven’t been there for a long time, even passing through

[tank66]

I myself, near Vladimir, as they say, did not hold a candle, but I will bring a couple of facts - someone wants to, can dig. Horses with regards .. About 20 years ago I read in paper form / could not find / the Tatar historian’s doctoral dissertation. I remembered well his statement / I don’t remember where he got the info from, that in the Horde / before the military campaign / there was a kind of review. Each warrior, even an infantryman, had 3 horses, one for himself, the other for substitution, the third supply. 120 arrows / except 30- it’s in a quiver, with / and dry tea - such as boiled koloboks and after dried rice + raisins + honey. It's a joke that you don’t get too thick, but on such koloboks the serviceman with horses could autonomously go for more than a month. I bought something for sale /: I talked somehow with an old gypsy, in the past horse-thief, he assured that if you had to keep the horse in the "sump" for a long time, then they stocked up some dried meat - beef ahead of time, first the horse snorts, and then completely manages this "basturma" with a very small count by virtue of ...

[Opera]

Quote: tank66

.And also / for what I bought, for that I sell /: I talked somehow with the old gypsy-

I’ll tell you with pleasure, gypsies are such an interesting people ...))) And they will tell you something! I also heard the story that Jesus Christ himself allowed the Gypsies to steal when, before the execution, one Gypsy stole a nail from the tormentors! And about Genghis Khan, that gypsies in advisers went to him and it seems like even he was gypsy! Like the guerrillas, our outstanding Kovpak, so you think are also gypsies!) They have very wise sayings by the way! From dylnipe no savo drab on the zrakhal! They say no cure for dope! Interesting people. I like to communicate with them.))) They lie like that - you'll hear it! And they themselves believe!

[tank66]

Not for the sake of sake, but for information: to the Canadian cops / about a year ago / it was necessary during the investigation to establish which animals and how quickly they swallow the corpse in their forest. they took the homeless from the morgue, put them in a clearing and put up night cameras. Surprisingly, the first to draw were not hedgehogs - ferrets, as expected, but quite recognizable bambi - deer. They quickly nibbled all the parts protruding from the body ... but the gypsies, yes, they were beautiful ..

[ver_]

Quote: avt

Quote: Severomor

Russian troops from the so-called Mongolian in these miniatures are no different.

To the captain, mana.

I myself have not seen Paul .... But you do not hope

When did the chronicles describe the mungals, who are strong in body, short-legged, shaving their foreheads and .... with pace! Somehow I immediately recall stories about the fact that in Russia this tribe was unknown Velmi, well, the Mavetians understand .... Just why, in the face of a sim very adnak, it reminds one tribe of the Turkic mono-religious religion that adopted -HAZAR. But this cannot be the same, because it cannot be, because we know for sure - the Khazar took Svyatoslav to the root. So, the Khazars could not possibly join the empire, inherited from presbyter John Chingiz, which he expanded ... in view of their physical extermination ... by Svyatoslav. And Gumilv wrote - took Khazaria and disappeared after ONE Russian campaign .... together with the Khazars ... all .... to the ground. Chimera C, what to take from her.

... a bit wrong .. Presbyter John = Yaroslav Vsevolodivich = Ivan Kalita, the younger brother of Genghis - Yuri Dolgoruky (Yuri Vsevolodovich) .. After the death of Yuri ranked him as a saint ..

[avt]

Quote: ver_

. a bit wrong

Exactly what is wrong, not Fomenkovsky. It was quite a Nestorian empire (Nestoianism actually got there from Byzantium) in the Uyghur lands. About what DO Fomenko and Nosovsky wrote chroniclers closer to those years who lived and were not from Russia.

[Luga]

Quote: ver_

... a bit wrong ..

I get the feeling that you are acting like Vladimir Dal from a joke: "And when Dahl did not have enough words, he came to the village, convened the men, broke a bottle of vodka in front of their eyes and wrote down, wrote down ..."
It seems like I’m already used to the products of your metabolism, which you generously pour on this site (as well as on many others, perhaps), I even have fun sometimes, show children, colleagues, giggle together ... But sometimes it gets boring, and you have long been bored repeat. Update the repertoire, tell in what kindred relationship are, for example, Charlemagne and Oda Nobunaga, for example. Amuse me as before.

[ver_]

Quote: Oper

And you do not wait! You will now be accused of Fomenkovism, etc. Everything and business!))) There were Mongols and everything - a traditional story! I’m interested in traditionalists who don’t think much of Mongolian blood ?! Now all this is very easy to find out!) What not ?! Absolutely ?! Paradox...)))

... the funny thing is that the Mongol nation and nationality appeared only at the beginning of the 20th century ..

[Opera]

It’s even funny that if you look at today's Mongolia, you won’t find anything there, not only reminiscent of the heritage of great ancestors, but generally nothing particularly historical! I'm not talking about any epics, folk tales or legends passed from mouth to mouth about the great ancestors who conquered the floor of the world! I understand that progress sometimes ends with regression, but to such an extent ... Paradox!) It is from such paradoxes that our ancient history consists! Any normal person who doesn’t just automatically read about some historical events begins to ask questions - but how is it that the flowering of culture in Russia during the Tatar-Mongol yoke? But how is the centralization of Orthodoxy and the strengthening of faith ?! And why are all the famous monasteries built during the yoke of the Mongols all ruined ?! And why are the Mongols in all known images completely indistinguishable from Russians, and even on icons ?! There are two options for answering such questions - the Mongols, despite their ferocity, were very tolerant !!! Well, just ooooooc! Or they’ll just tell you something like - go boy from here, do not bother! The most interesting thing, but how do the "traditionalists" even know about the Tatars - the Mongols and the yoke ?! Who and when told about this ?!) Tataro - Mongols are generally wild expression! Something like Franco - Zulus! And if I'm a Fomenkovets))) then in the company of Lomonosov I will consider it an honor!)

[Luga]

Quote: Oper

but how is it that the flowering of culture in Russia during the period of the Tatar-Mongol yoke?

Heyday? Are you seriously? And what do you think he said? In architecture? In literature? In the craft?

Quote: Oper

But how is the centralization of Orthodoxy and the strengthening of faith ?!

After the Muslim coup in the Horde - not surprising. Plus Catholics from the West - they would not be able to resist without centralization. I had to strengthen myself.

Quote: Oper

And why are all the famous monasteries built during the yoke of the Mongols all ruined ?!

Active monastic construction, again, begins only from the fourteenth century, as opposed to the pressure of Islam and Catholicism. By the way, give me an example of stone temple architecture of the XIV century. in Russia, so that until the XX century. survived. Only Pskov or Novgorod, well, Smolensk yet ... Everything else fell apart - forgotten how to build.

Quote: Oper

And why are the Mongols in all known images completely indistinguishable from Russians, and even on icons ?!

And because most of the icons and miniatures were painted that way two or four hundred years later than their (Mongols) appearance in Russia. Artists painted from that nature, which was before my eyes, what the Mongols looked like they did not know and could not know.

Quote: Oper

the Mongols, despite their ferocity, were very tolerant !!!

The only thing you are right about. Otherwise, an empire cannot be built. The Mongols knew how to use the conquered peoples for the good of their empire, and this is impossible without tolerance.

Quote: Oper

The most interesting thing, but how do the "traditionalists" even know about the Tatars - the Mongols and the yoke ?!

From chronicles, chronicles and various archives of various states from China to France, from archaeological research, from research in related sciences, such as genetics, climatology, soil science, astronomy, linguistics, forensics, finally. What do you think?

Quote: Oper

And if I'm a Fomenkovets))) then in the company of Lomonosov I will consider it an honor!)

Well, here you are enough. Of course, you won’t ask Lomonosov if he agrees with the “new chronology”, but just as I can’t ask him, neither can you. And then we will come to the point that the supporter of slavery in the same company with Suvorov (a staunch supporter of serfdom) is not shameful, and Prince Svyatoslav Igorevich will become the progenitor of anti-Semites.

[co-creator]

Quote: Luga

Heyday? Are you seriously? And what do you think he said? In architecture? In literature? In the craft?

In all these directions.

Quote: Luga

After the Muslim coup in the Horde - not surprising. Plus Catholics from the West - they would not be able to resist without centralization. I had to strengthen myself.

A strange explanation. Everything should have been the other way around.

Quote: Luga

Active monastic construction, again, begins only from the fourteenth century, as opposed to the pressure of Islam and Catholicism.

This is based on what sources, which is in contrast?

Quote: Luga

By the way, give me an example of stone temple architecture of the XIV century. in Russia, so that until the XX century. survived. Only Pskov or Novgorod, well, Smolensk yet ... Everything else fell apart - forgotten how to build.

Dismantled, rebuilt, burned, destroyed by wars, etc.

Quote: Luga

And because most of the icons and miniatures were painted that way two or four hundred years later than their (Mongols) appearance in Russia. Artists painted from that nature, which was before my eyes, what the Mongols looked like they did not know and could not know.

And what did the Tatars look like they knew? It was Mongol-Tatar, or as they say in the annals of "Mughals" and "Tatar".

Quote: Luga

The only thing you are right about. Otherwise, an empire cannot be built. The Mongols knew how to use the conquered peoples for the good of their empire, and this is impossible without tolerance.

Well, where is the metropolis of this empire, where are the imperial cities. What are the conquered peoples actually used for?
Type of destruction at the root of entire cities helped to build an empire)

Quote: Luga

in related sciences, what are genetics,

You can write in more detail. It’s like you drove yourself into a corner

Quote: Luga

climatology, soil science, astronomy, linguistics, forensics, finally. What did you think

If you apply all this, then the myth of the IGO and the Mongol-Tatars will collapse like a house of cards. For example, how the myth of the Battle of Kulikovo collapsed.

[Luga]

Quotation: blooded man

In all these directions.

Examples.

Quotation: blooded man

A strange explanation. Everything should have been the other way around.

Not at all. Consolidation often occurs under pressure.

Quotation: blooded man

This is based on what sources, which is in contrast?

Do you want to read this in the annals? It will not be there. But the fact that the church from the middle of the XIV century. actively intervened in politics, and always on the side of Moscow - a fact. Strengthened faith - strengthened the unity of the country - strengthened central authority. And vice versa.

Quotation: blooded man

Dismantled, rebuilt, burned, destroyed by wars, etc.

In Novgorod, Pskov are. To name examples or look for yourself?

Quotation: blooded man

And what did the Tatars look like they knew?

They knew. Almost like Russians, especially in armor. At the feast it was still possible to distinguish, but on the battlefield ... Hardly.

Quotation: blooded man

Well, where is the metropolis of this empire, where are the imperial cities

The empire was too quickly pulled apart. The cultural level of the steppes was rather low; they quickly assimilated with the locals. We did not have time to set up our own. Do you think "empire" means "highest civilization"?

Quotation: blooded man

You can write in more detail. It’s like you drove yourself into a corner

I understand that after the "write" there should be a question, right? I am not a geneticist, qualified to answer in more detail. I can give a couple of links to the lectures of geneticists (not historians). You can search yourself. In general, their explanations regarding what a "population", "ethnos", "people", "haplogroup" are, and why we have practically no Mongolian gene, I was satisfied.

Quotation: blooded man

If you apply all this, then the myth of the IGO and the Mongol-Tatars will collapse like a house of cards.

What do you think the yoke is? Expand the concept.
And a few more questions.
Who in the XIII century. ravaged China?
Who in the XIII century ravaged Khorezm (Persia)?
Who destroyed Russia in the 13th century?

[co-creator]

Quote: Luga

Examples.

Many literary works have been written. The language has become less tongue-tied.
The architecture is full of information on the Internet. For example.
https://yandex.ru/images/search?text=русская%20ар
хитектура%2013-15%20веков&noreask=1&lr=47

By crafts, too, can be found in neta Old.
The Russians have made great strides in state building, etc.

Quote: Luga

Not at all. Consolidation often occurs under pressure.

So no one allows the consolidation of vassals.

Quote: Luga

In Novgorod, Pskov are. To name examples or look for yourself?

Do not understand? You asked why the pre-Mongolian and Mongolian architecture was little preserved besides these areas. For example, the Church of the Intercession on the Nerl was preserved miraculously. The monks could not agree on a price with the peasants whom they hired to take it apart.

Quote: Luga

They knew. Almost like Russians, especially in armor. At the feast it was still possible to distinguish, but on the battlefield ... Hardly.

What nonsense. Kazan Khanate, Crimean Tatars are fragments of the horde. The banners and armor they have are different, much less faces.

Quote: Luga

The empire was too quickly pulled apart. The cultural level of the steppes was rather low; they quickly assimilated with the locals. We did not have time to set up our own. Do you think "empire" means "highest civilization"?

Well, yes, an empire is a civilization with a metropolis and "colonies." After it remains a material heritage as after the Romans and Greeks. If this is nothing, then there is no empire. They simply called a few nomadic states that were not connected among themselves an empire and that’s all.

Quote: Luga

You can search yourself. In general, their explanations regarding what a "population", "ethnos", "people", "haplogroup" are, and why we have practically no Mongolian gene, I was satisfied.

Not practically, but there is no gene at all. Well, actually there is no gene, but geneticists have confirmed that there was a Mongol yoke. This is of course five. As in Ukraine it’s not Bendera, the streets are named after Bender)

Quote: Luga

What do you think the yoke is? Expand the concept.

Classical colony.

Quote: Luga

Who in the XIII century. ravaged China?

Mongols.

Quote: Luga

Who in the XIII century ravaged Khorezm (Persia)?

Mongols.

Quote: Luga

Who destroyed Russia in the 13th century?

None . They ruined themselves until Moscow began to assemble the state.

[the lord]

Those. you say that the Tatars have completely different "faces" (it is correct to write "faces", but this is so ...). Do you want to look at the picture of Rinat Akhmetov? So-so-Tatar ... And the ancestors of the Tatars are still not Mongols, but Bulgars and Polovtsy. Moreover, many robbed Rusichs (including Chatsi women) and a lot of Russians themselves were beaten (regarding the posting of women by conquerors). At the same time, the Russian ethnic group included many Turkic-Berendey and Kovui. as well as the Khazars from the darkness of the principality. And the Russians themselves settled in Bulgaria itself, and during the time of the Haganate Slavic tribes were noted on the Volga under the auspices of the Bulgars.
And now, you say that the Mongols reached the Bulgars, that they bordered on us, but did not go to us. Didn’t go to Europe, terrifying with its military effectiveness and ferocity? And all this for some reason was specially invented. transferred to the past in a time machine in the form of manuscripts .... You are funny little people.

[co-creator]

Quote: znavel

Those. you say that the Tatars have completely different "faces" (it is correct to write "faces", but this is so ...).

Thank you, of course, but I don’t advise you to start such a conversation. I'm afraid others may misunderstand you.

Quote: znavel

Do you want to look at the picture of Rinat Akhmetov? So-so-Tatar ... And the ancestors of the Tatars are still not Mongols, but Bulgars and Polovtsy.

Even now, when the Slavs are not at all the ones that used to be the majority of the Tatars, it is quite easy to distinguish.

Quote: znavel

And now, you say that the Mongols reached the Bulgars, that they bordered on us, but did not go to us.

Where did I say that?

Quote: znavel

Didn’t go to Europe, terrifying with its military effectiveness and ferocity?

Well, since they write, it means it was. Only not the Mongols, Mughals or Tartars. The difference is huge.

Quote: znavel

And all this for some reason was specially invented. transferred to the past in a time machine in the form of manuscripts .... You are funny little people

You obviously confused me with someone.
Although the fact that the historians read the annals as they are FAVORABLE is simply a fact. Even in a dialogue with Luzhsky, this is clearly visible. If you are gentlemen, you will, for a start, correctly read MOGOLS instead of MONGOLS, you will already begin to clear up in your head.

[the lord]

I didn’t understand why I should not have noted your incorrect remark, and how could others not understand me? but this is essentially unimportant, although strange ...
Regarding the fact that most can be distinguished, not a fact. Just their appearance is now more affected by wearing beards in a halal manner, and in past centuries this was less noticeable. They all looked like the border population of Russia.
And if you portray warriors in armor, then the Polovtsy and Bulgars had a lot of outwardly similar to the Russians and other peoples. We had rather close and allied relations with the Pontic Greeks and Yasses (ancestors of the Ossetians), we had a dark tarakan, a complete Khazar. So on the frescoes they could very well depict enemies and their own. And the counter-question is, and on the frescoes are often Rusich depicted curly, is this true? Why so many straight-haired people?
Regarding the fact that the Mongols reached the Bulgars, you certainly did not say. only a question, and who then conquered them and established khanates on their territory?
Regarding the correct name of the Tatars as tartar, this is not even funny. If you find mention of Tatars as tartar in eastern sources, then of course it is possible. They only began to call the Tatars Tartars in Europe, and because there was Greek mythology held in high esteem, where Tartar is hell, a gloomy dull and very cold place. And when there was such a coincidence that terrible warriors appeared from the cold land (because of Russia, which was also revered as a very cold country), which were hard to break, then the scientists (who could be called such with a stretch of mind) combined these concepts. Now, if you find sources about Tartaria, which will be before the invasion of the Tatars, I will be glad to see))))) But I also recall Tartar, this is a cold, dull and gloomy hell.
Regarding the benefits for historians to present the Tatars and the Mongols not as tartars and Mughals, it is not too far-sighted to fight with a country that returned to the European politarena only under Ivan the Terrible and was ultimately defeated, and there were earlier references to tartars.
And I don’t understand the term “Mughal” in any way, what is there dear to us? And the Mughals who invaded India seemed to be the Chingizids, although they did not study this moment

[co-creator]

Quote: znavel

I didn’t understand why I should not have noted your incorrect remark, and how could others not understand me? but this is essentially unimportant, although strange ...

So you don’t understand? Okay . I would explain to you on another forum what’s what, but they’ll banyat here. Next time I just stop talking.

Quote: znavel

Regarding the fact that most can be distinguished, not a fact.

Fact

Quote: znavel

So on the frescoes they could very well depict enemies and their own.

On any pictures, theirs are different from strangers. There is no other way. Even today when chevrons draw the same shape.

Quote: znavel

And the counter-question is, and on the frescoes are often Rusich depicted curly, is this true? Why so many straight-haired people?

So depict princes or individual warriors. This is done in order to separate them from ordinary people and fighters. An example is good in the subject.

Quote: znavel

Regarding the fact that the Mongols reached the Bulgars, you certainly did not say. only a question, and who then conquered them and established khanates on their territory?

Where did I say that the Mongols did not reach us? On the territory of these khanates live the Turks, and the Mongols.

Quote: znavel

Regarding the correct name of the Tatars as tartar, this is not even funny.

I totally agree.

Quote: znavel

If you find mention of Tatars as tartar in eastern sources, then of course it is possible.

Is Russia and West the East?

Quote: znavel

Only tartars of Tatars began to be called in Europe

Where did you get this? Well, let's call the Romans Italians, but this is essentially the same thing. After all, the natives began to be called because the capital was ROME.

Quote: znavel

And when there was such a coincidence that terrible warriors appeared from the cold land (because of Russia, which was also revered as a very cold country), which were hard to break, then the scientists (who could be called such with a stretch of mind) combined these concepts.

I'm not interested in how scientists who were not contemporaries explain their fantasies. There are chronicles and be so kind as to quote them accurately.

Quote: znavel

Now, if you find sources of tartaria, which will be before the invasion of the Tatars, I will be glad to see)))))

So you need to look for that, to confirm your glory about the Tatars-tartars.

Quote: znavel

But I still recall - Tartar, this is a cold, dull and gloomy hell.

I understood you . But what does the Tatars have to do with it?

Quote: znavel

Regarding the benefits for historians to present the Tatars and the Mongols not as tartars and Mughals, it is not too far-sighted to fight with a country that returned to the European politarena only under Ivan the Terrible and was ultimately defeated, and there were earlier references to tartars.

Are you writing about history — science or history as a political tool? If about science, then you need to write the TRUTH and not come up with the Tatars of the Tartars and the Mughals of the Mongols.
What does Ivan the Terrible have to do with it? I did not understand at all.

Quote: znavel

And I don’t understand the term “Mughal” in any way, what is there dear to us? And the Mughals who invaded India seemed to be the Chingizids, although they did not study this moment

No, not native. It’s just that scientists so easily explained the Tatar-Tartar, but to say that the Mongols in Greek are GREAT is not a camilpho. If translated into Russian there are terrible great busurmans who came and robbed the Europeans.
CHINGISHKHAN in translation is EASTERN KHAN no more. These khans are eastern in one Central Asia every second.
East know where? There is a Middle East, there is a Far East.

[the lord]

Something you have accumulated here ... Although. it’s possible that I also got a little thought on the tree. I’ll try to clarify:
In the past, the Tatars were difficult to distinguish from the Slavs on the fact of a common centuries-old history. You, apparently, rest on the Mongoloid, Far Eastern suit. There were not so many of her ducks, and right now, quite a bit. And they coincided in armament, because it was the Polovtsy and Bulgars who were the basis of the horde that invaded us. The Mongols themselves were already perished; nevertheless, often according to their military tactics, they were not to be dragged.
Your troll’s fabrication about the fact that the princes and boyars were curly depicted, I will answer, the people and the squad, returning with victory, and many times on various occasions are depicted. Only a very stupid person can believe that everything looked as the author showed. Scientists in frescoes note the common and frequently found elements of life and rituals. The artist wanted to convey the holiday, he painted everyone more beautifully)))))
Regarding the correctness of calling Tatars or Tartars, I mentioned the east, and you played a fool and didn’t understand the type. And it was very easy to understand. Since the Tatars were called tartars in the west, then they should also be called in the east. Find me sources from the east, where the Tatars were called tartars. and their land is tartaria. The East was always closer to them than the West, right?
And about the West, find me sources. where Tartaria is mentioned before the Tatars invaded Europe. This is nowhere to be found, but you try))))) And you should look for evidence of this, because it is you who claim it.
And about the Mughals, as I understand it, you want to ascribe this term to us? Like, they called our ancestors and it was they who invaded India and created an empire there, so what?
About the scientists whom you for some reason attributed not to contemporaries, I did not understand. I just wrote that the then scientists, seeing the Tatars and their cruelty, learning about the cold climate of those places, simply combined the name "Tatars" with the Greek "Tartar". The chroniclers and scientists of the time were not worried about the evidence and reliability from the word at all. It turned out to glue the successful hypothesis and go! Beautifully)))))
And finally, if you still claim your stupidity for the truth, you just want to ask: i.e. it was our ancestors who invaded Poland and Hungary, having previously burned Ryazan, Vladimir, Moscow, Tver, Kiev and so on, right? What good fellows, however. It remains to ask, why then did the Magyars and Poles not call us by our name, but use some kind of "tartar"? We kind of knew each other for a long time and repeatedly presented)))))

[Luga]

Quotation: blooded man

The architecture is full of information on the Internet.

I agree. It remains only to see her. In the link provided temples, mainly the end of the XV century. If there is something earlier, then this is Novgorod or Pskov, the invasion and subsequent punitive campaigns are not affected. Pre-Mongol temples still stand, and from the middle of the XIII century. and until the end of the XV century. there is nothing left.

Quotation: blooded man

Many literary works have been written.

For example?

Quotation: blooded man

By crafts, too, can be found in neta Old.

Come on, where are the examples? Thunder me.
.

Quotation: blooded man

The Russians have made great strides in state building, etc.

At the beginning of the XIV century. fifty independent principalities? Three great reigns? Are these achievements?

Quotation: blooded man

You asked why the pre-Mongolian and Mongolian architecture was little preserved besides these areas.

I did not ask, I argued and affirm that with the advent of the Mongols, stone construction in Russia fell into concrete decline. The first stone cathedral was built already in 1285, - after 50 years after the invasion, it did not survive to this day. Before 1238, they built almost every year throughout Russia. Poor Kalita tried to build something in Moscow - everything crumbled and fell

Quotation: blooded man

Kazan Khanate, Crimean Tatars are fragments of the horde.

Exactly. And how were their troops armed? And what is the visual difference from Russia? The Russian local cavalry - the foundation of the army of that time - was practically no different from its eastern neighbors, horses, harness, weapons, armor - all the same. A pair of hundreds of archers with general reeds were not made.

Quotation: blooded man

Well, yes, an empire is a civilization with a metropolis and "colonies."

Stamp. Learn the concept before operating it.

Quotation: blooded man

Well, actually there is no gene, but geneticists have confirmed that there was a Mongol yoke.

The conspiracy of geneticists and historians.
No, my dear, genetics simply explained why the lack of genes does not exclude the presence of yoke. That's all. Genetics, they are genetics, not historians, and they do not deal with historical problems.

Quotation: blooded man

Classical colony.

Take the trouble to master the basic concepts that historians operate before challenging them.
You remind me of my great-grandmother. According to her father’s stories, she was illiterate, she didn’t know all the letters and only those with pictures took the books in her hands, and she herself could not read half of the contents. So it is with you - when reading the text unfamiliar words are encountered and you, instead of asking about their meaning, because of your ignorance, give them meaning at your own discretion. When reading it turns out nonsense, but you sincerely think that this nonsense was already at the time of writing.

Quotation: blooded man

They ruined themselves until Moscow began to assemble the state.

Mongols defeated China, defeated Persia, Bulgaria (did not ask you, forgot ) defeated, no? Kipchakov, to say the Polovtsy?
And in Russia, meanwhile, there was a civil war, the cities were burning, the princes slaughtered each other, and the Mongols decided, like, "we won’t go to them, well, let’s understand what they’re doing, so what?" It’s not funny for yourself?
If you do not know or do not understand something, do not hesitate to ask. They will explain to you. And filling the gaps of one’s own knowledge with one’s own fantasies generated by one’s own ignorance is not the best way to comprehend the world.

[co-creator]

Quote: Luga

I agree. It remains only to see her.

Who's stopping you? For example, by reference.

Quote: Luga

In the link provided temples, mainly the end of the XV century.

Not true . By the way, do you know the ending of IGO?

Quote: Luga

If there is something earlier, then this is Novgorod or Pskov, the invasion and subsequent punitive campaigns are not affected.

No, just Pskov and Novgorod is a backwater. Therefore, the architecture was preserved. In the rest of Russia, in addition to the nomadic raids, there was a civil war, what the hell stone buildings at that time.

Quote: Luga

Pre-Mongol temples still stand, and from the middle of the XIII century. and until the end of the XV century. there is nothing left.

This is also a lie. The fact that almost all the churches of the Mongol era were demolished or rebuilt by the Russians is also a fact.

Quote: Luga

For example?

You know me better. Ipatiev Chronicle, etc.

Quote: Luga

Come on, where are the examples? Thunder me.

https://yandex.ru/search/?text=гугл%20хром&cl
id = 1955453 & win = 167 & lr = 47

Quote: Luga

At the beginning of the XIV century. fifty independent principalities? Three great reigns? Are these achievements?

Igo when it ended. Of course, the achievement of fifty principalities of 2 Russian states. ON I will include here too.

Quote: Luga

I did not ask, I argued and affirm that with the advent of the Mongols, stone construction in Russia fell into concrete decline. The first stone cathedral was built already in 1285 - 50 years after the invasion, it has not survived to this day.

Do you argue with yourself? Well, of course, some time after the invasion and civil strife there was a decline.

Quote: Luga

Until 1238, they built almost every year throughout Russia.

We assume ? I'm afraid you're lying again.

Quote: Luga

Poor Kalita tried to build something in Moscow - everything crumbled and fell

Of course, of course everything fell. The Winter Palace, too, had to be entrusted to foreigners, since everything was falling.

Quote: Luga

Exactly. And how were their troops armed? And what is the visual difference from Russia? The Russian local cavalry - the foundation of the army of that time - was practically no different from its eastern neighbors, horses, harness, weapons, armor - all the same. A pair of hundreds of archers with general reeds were not made.

Are you trolling or serious? One may ask, how do you determine to which army the soldiers dressed in the same army camouflage belong?

Quote: Luga

Stamp. Learn the concept before operating it.

You have a FAC. Kindly write your definition of EMPIRE.

Quote: Luga

The conspiracy of geneticists and historians.

Geneticists like you.

Quote: Luga

No, my dear, genetics simply explained why the lack of genes does not exclude the presence of yoke. That's all. Genetics, they are genetics, not historians, and they do not deal with historical problems.

Shanovny, this is called pulling an owl on the globe. There is a type, there are no genes, but it needs to be explained. You are on the right track, comrades.
But the genetics, which scientists really do not deal with politics and "history", and they said bluntly - there are no Mongolian genes.

Quote: Luga

Take the trouble to master the basic concepts that historians operate before challenging them.

Take the trouble to apply your FAC to your wife, alright. Khans appointed ransom, appointed princes, etc. This is a classic colony such as Ukraine.

Quote: Luga

When reading it turns out nonsense, but you sincerely think that this nonsense was already at the time of writing.

I sympathize with your family, sincerely. Apparently you have a birth injury after this, go to a psychologist.

Quote: Luga

And in Russia, meanwhile, there was a civil war, the cities were burning, the princes slaughtered each other, and the Mongols decided, like, "we won’t go to them, well, let’s understand what they’re doing, so what?" It’s not funny for yourself?

What did you want to say? Was there a Mongol invasion? As represented in historiography, of course there was not and could not be. Batu was and trampled Russia of course, but the nomads themselves trampled Russia before the Mongols and after the Mongols and no one called it a yoke.

Quote: Luga

If you do not know or do not understand something, do not hesitate to ask. They will explain to you. And filling the gaps of one’s own knowledge with one’s own fantasies generated by one’s own ignorance is not the best way to comprehend the world.

What I don’t understand? I don’t understand what you are writing about.
Are you trying to teach me or justify your point of view? If the first, then go to your sectarians and there push your speeches.
If the second, then be so kind as to confirm your words with something or at least write on the topic.

[Luga]

Listen, I tried, sincerely tried to take you seriously and, apparently, in vain. You cannot even read the text written for you in an elementary way, understand its essence and answer in essence.
You are not the first character who plunged me into deep disappointment in the process of communication, I think not the last, so you have nothing to be proud of, but ... it’s somehow unpleasant. Well, honestly, I have complex feelings - at the same time, pity, disgust, regret ...
You know, it is in the process of communicating with people like you that it’s wrong, and those who then become politicians and oligarchs, those who despise people and see nothing wrong with brazenly deceiving them and using them for their own success, are born.
In our discussion, we again ran into an impenetrable wall, which, in general, was to be expected. Probably, I will still oppose you in the framework of the struggle against militant primitivism and illiteracy, but rather, just so that people reading this site can compare two points of view - no more.
I say goodbye to the sim. Take care of yourself.

[co-creator]

Quote: Luga

Listen, I tried, sincerely tried to take you seriously and, apparently, in vain. You cannot even read the text written for you in an elementary way, understand its essence and answer in essence.

Again lie. Ask for links. I gave them to you.
Yes, I don’t want to know anything about your grandparents. He answered in the same boorish way as you did. Actually, what did not suit you?

Quote: Luga

You know, it is in the process of communicating with people like you that it’s wrong, and those who then become politicians and oligarchs, those who despise people and see nothing wrong with brazenly deceiving them and using them for their own success, are born.

Do you know how many philosophers like you I have seen in life and the forum? Judging by your words, you are nothing but an oligarch or a presidential candidate.

Quote: Luga

In our discussion, we again ran into an impenetrable wall, which, in general, was to be expected.

That's right, you don’t want to have a discussion because your FAQ is higher than your mind. You just ask some questions, and in discussions they also answer questions.

Quote: Luga

Perhaps I will still oppose you in the framework of the struggle against militant primitivism and illiteracy,

Like a little child, an offended child.
Good luck of course.

[co-creator]

Quote: Luga

Do you want to read this in the annals? It will not be there. But the fact that the church from the middle of the XIV century. actively intervened in politics, and always on the side of Moscow - a fact. Strengthened faith - strengthened the unity of the country - strengthened central authority. And vice versa.

Well, that is, this is your personal opinion no more.
I personally do not see any connection with the Mongols. Strengthening the church and the state is a natural process.

[the lord]

Here you are ... it’s written in black in Russian, from the fourteenth century the church goes over to the side of Rusi- and Alexis comes to power and initiates the process for saving Russia from tearing between the horde and Lithuania. What else is there IMHO at Luga? And strengthening the church is not at all a natural process. Catholicism did not increase in Germany. but lost to lutheranism. in Britain, Protestantism.

[co-creator]

Quote: znavel

Here you are ... it’s written in black in Russian, from the fourteenth century the church goes over to the side of Rusi- Alex comes to power and initiates the process for saving Russia from tearing between the horde and Lithuania.

And before that, on which side was the church? I believe that at least someone chose? Who Greek priests invited Russia to baptize.

Quote: znavel

What else is there IMHO at Luga?

Normal IMHO. Nowhere in the annals about it is not written, it means IMHO.

Quote: znavel

And strengthening the church is not at all a natural process. Catholicism did not increase in Germany. but lost to lutheranism. in Britain, Protestantism.

Listen in Russia, the church also lost to the state. Nikon is the last one who tried to steer. Such a process was in all countries. Moreover, in Europe there were fierce religious wars, is that not a strengthening of the church? To kill hundreds of thousands of people only because the Pope called them heretics and called for destruction.

[the lord]

And before that, the church was on the side of the horde and those who revolted against the horde in Russia raised anathema. I am sure they even handed over such. Let me remind you that the metropolitans in Russia up to Alexy were Bulgarians (by the way, also Turks, like Tatars) and Greeks. And do not recall the poor fellow Illarion, who was immediately deposed. how he began to sing about the special role of Russia in the matter of Christianity)))))
Duck, this spiritual and colonial administration, I think you are aware, began to serve the horde so zealously that it decided to divide Russia between it and Lithuania, which was and has not yet been identified as an ally to the horde.
You are trying to punish here that the church has lost to the state; for our happiness in orthodox churches there is no conviction. that an individual person is the will of God on earth, and therefore the papacy has not taken root anywhere in them in any form. And the harsh conditions in which the majority of orthodox states remained, being in vassal dependence on halal forced the church leaders to put this question between themselves and the flock of secular rulers so that the people would not start asking questions about the truth of the faith and its servants))))) And in Europe religious wars just weakened the Catholics - people saw the weakness of the spiritual rulers and changed the basic tenets for them. As a result, the church (whatever it was) and its influence on secular society weakened and led to the Renaissance with its geniuses.

[co-creator]

Quote: znavel

And before that, the church was on the side of the horde and those who rebelled against the horde in Russia raised anathema

For example, to whom was anathema declared?
The church was on the side of the princes, otherwise it would have been a kayuk.

Quote: znavel

Let me remind you that the metropolitans in Russia up to Alexy were Bulgarians (by the way, also Turks, like Tatars) and Greeks. And do not recall the poor fellow Illarion, who was immediately deposed. how he began to sing about the special role of Russia in the matter of Christianity)))))

So in Russia there was only a metropolis, and the Greeks appointed the metropolitan. The horde has nothing to do with it.

Quote: znavel

Duck, this spiritual and colonial administration, I think you are aware, began to serve the horde so zealously that it decided to divide Russia between it and Lithuania, which was and has not yet been identified as an ally to the horde.

Write nonsense. How did she serve the Horde? How did she divide Russia? Local princes could collect and drown all these priests in the nearest river if they wanted to, as the Bolsheviks did.

Quote: znavel

You are trying to punish here that the church has lost to the state; for our happiness in orthodox churches there is no conviction.

I am not ready to talk about these topics, how this happened and why. In fact - all large states subjugated the church. In Russia, the patriarch was removed, in the west, the PAPA became only a nominal leader and could not appoint cardinals and others without the permission of the king, emperor.

[the lord]

But this opus finally zashkvar. It was the church that stood up for the interests of the horde. It so happened that with the yoke in Russia the church, on the contrary, received enormous preferences. The Mongols, the great mystics themselves, never touched any priests and shamans. The same misfortune happened in Russia. They received protection from all encroachments and even blasphemy of the church (which was completely justified - we believed in your Christ, and in the end we lost to the Gentiles, how so?) They retained all their possessions and property, and many received reliefs as independence from the princes. You can even simply type something like “church politics towards the horde” and you will see a bunch of sites telling about it. True, at the same time they are in every possible way justifying themselves and bothering, but in reality everything comes out clearly to disgust. Secular power collapsed, and the religious took maximum advantage of this, and even intended to divide between the enemies of the territory. Such a good church .... God's)))))

[Luga]

Quotation: blooded man

Strengthening the church and the state is a natural process.

Well, look at Europe. "Natural process" ... Do not tell.

[co-creator]

Quote: Luga

Well, look at Europe. "Natural process" ... Do not tell

Look . France, Britain, Germany, Spain, Italy, Greece, Poland or rather RF. All have gone from princedoms to states. Everywhere the church tried to influence politics, somewhere it worked out, somewhere not.
What made you laugh?

[Luga]

Quotation: blooded man

Look . France, Britain, Germany, Spain, Italy, Greece, Poland or rather RF

Watch and not see.

Quotation: blooded man

Moreover, in Europe there were fierce religious wars, is that not a strengthening of the church? To kill hundreds of thousands of people only because the Pope called them heretics and called for destruction.

And the result? As they began to profess theirs, they still confess. This is called separation and weakening, not amplification. Now, if dad ordered, and they were destroyed, I would agree with you.

[co-creator]

Quote: Luga

Watch and not see.

What do you see?

Quote: Luga

And the result? As they began to profess theirs, they still confess.

The result is different everywhere. France defeated Protestants for example.

Quote: Luga

This is called separation and weakening, not amplification.

Well, how so. When the Protestants were persecuted, it was an intensification and very large. Then came the weakening of the church and submission to the state. In Russia it was the same. First, strengthening, and then after Nikon weakening and submission to the state.

Quote: Luga

Now, if dad ordered, and they were destroyed, I would agree with you.

Didn't dad order? The Catholic Church led this process.

[the lord]

The Catholic Church lost it. In France, they won purely militarily. but the influence on the state has weakened incredibly. Suffice it to say that in the end this led first to the coming to power of the Huguenot Henry No. 4, and then to the revolution altogether. The papacy ceased its inquisitorial activities and shut up on issues of influence on politics. And so it happened soon where Catholicism survived for the main religion

[Opera]

So I read the answers of Mr. Luga to my quotes and I felt sad! That's how a person lives bored - he knows everything! Well, absolutely everything! I was thinking, maybe we will finally go to the place of the Kulikovo battle ?! We’ll take the locals with us. After all, you definitely know where, unlike everyone else ?! And then people are tormented, and the results of archaeological research are nowhere poorer! And about the capital of the Golden Horde, I would like to hear a few words from you ... Well, at least somewhere was that ?! Yes, you can say a lot! But Lomonosov answered you very clearly filling the face of the German false historian Miller for lying about the origin of our ancestors from the Normans. Here are such “historians” as Bayer and Schletser, and of course our eternal Polish partners, Jan Dlugosh, Matvey Mehovsky, who echoed them ... Well, these are Poles - they should! And here is what the Arab traveler Ibn Battuta, who visited the city of Sarai - Berke in 1334, wrote so it’s generally heard - it turns out that the majority of the inhabitants of the capital of the Golden Horde were Russians and at the same time they made up the majority of armed people! Continue to provide eyewitness accounts?

[Luga]

Quote: Oper

Continue to provide eyewitness accounts?

Give at least the testimony of Ibn Trampolines. How is this done in the indictment, and not in the undercover report.

[ver_]

Quote: lwimu1976

Horror! And were the wells?
Capacitive! Or poisoned?

... if there is - you’ll find horseradish .. The well belongs to the Family, up to 100 meters deep, the water is salty .. Among other things, the well is masked. And there’s water in it with a gulkin’s nose .., a few buckets and after scooping them up, only after a few days will be typed ...

[lwimu1976]

The Great Silk Road: Whirlwinds in the Wells
Due to the large inertia of the rotation of the vortex formation, the well worked around the clock.

Water was extracted both day and night, while no forms of energy other than solar were used. It is possible that at night the well worked even more intensively than during the day, because the temperature of the desert air after sunset drops to 30-40C, which affects its density and humidity.
The use of jets of low tangentiality, bringing their number almost to infinity, opens up new possibilities for vortex technologies. Just do not imagine ourselves as pioneers. Engineers in antiquity mastered this technology to perfection. The height of the well’s building, including its built-in part, was 6–8 m with a building diameter of no more than 6 m in the base, but a vortex formation appeared and worked stably in the well. The cooling effect of the vortex was used with a very high efficiency. The conical pile of stones really played the role of a condenser.

[ver_]

Quote: Oper

Quote: tank66

.And also / for what I bought, for that I sell /: I talked somehow with the old gypsy-

I’ll tell you with pleasure, gypsies are such an interesting people ...))) And they will tell you something! I also heard the story that Jesus Christ himself allowed the Gypsies to steal when, before the execution, one Gypsy stole a nail from the tormentors! And about Genghis Khan, that gypsies in advisers went to him and it seems like even he was gypsy! Like the guerrillas, our outstanding Kovpak, so you think are also gypsies!) They have very wise sayings by the way! From dylnipe no savo drab on the zrakhal! They say no cure for dope! Interesting people. I like to communicate with them.))) They lie like that - you'll hear it! And they themselves believe!

... I read that one Jew bound a missing nail - the guards forced them under pain of death, and he became * an eternal Jew * and since then wanders around the world ...

[Monarchist]

In principle, the idea of ​​V.K. Vladimirsky and his governor was quite real: stop the Tatars in Kolomna, but what happened happened. As I imagine, there was a confluence of circumstances: 1) traditionally the Mongols preferred to fight in the summer, and here in the winter; 2) did not win time: if there was a far-sighted person and while Kolomenskaya sowing was in progress, he took care of forming reserves, but then the opera begins: “if if only mushrooms would grow in the mouth. "
I do not want to justify Vladyka Mitrofanov, but I venture to suggest: he had in mind feudal fragmentation when he said: “the scourge of God.” At least Bishop Serapion said in Peter the Spirit: fragmentation and the lack of centralized power is the reason for the invasion.

[igorra]

At all times there are legends about how the invaders tortured prisoners because of information, remember how our grandfathers were silent among the Nazis. The Mongols behaved like close relatives knew everything about everyone. Just don’t talk about great intelligence and all-espionage merchants. Imagine how people with an Asian appearance poked out all the secrets of the Russian principalities ... Yes, they were, with those mores, without the current moralization, right on the rack. Or what, bribed everyone without exception? I assure you, the Russians then and now are not much different. And then and now, there were traitors, but not all the people. As they say, not everything is unambiguous and history is always being added when new facts and hypotheses appear, no matter how wild they would be, they have the right to life until the contrary is proved. I think that we are not a people of fanatics, fond of, maybe, but not fanatics. Therefore, argue, prove, but do not harass everyone indiscriminately. Academics are also mistaken.

[Luga]

Quote: igorra

I assure you, the Russians then and now are not much different.

You are mistaken in the main thing. Russian in the form that we are now, then did not exist. Vladimirtsy Novgorodians, Kiev or Smolyan for their own, for example, did not consider. And about the Berendey, I measure, Mordovians, Perm or the whole and nothing to say. They all began to become Russian only in the XIV century. and then not immediately. And they became - and united in a single state. The Mongols did not have to torture anyone, it was enough to ask. Only not about their own principality, but about the neighboring one.
There was such a prince Yaroslav Vladimirovich Pskovsky. He ruled in Pskov, was expelled from him for his sympathy for Catholicism, went to the Germans, converted to Catholicism, repeatedly led the Germans to Pskov, the last time in 1240, after the 1242 Ice Battle, he was asked back to Russia and Alexander Nevsky allocated land to him, accepted it. Then they fought together against Lithuania. Why? Because there was nothing reprehensible in the behavior of Yaroslav at that time. He fought for Pskov - his inheritance. There were no reproaches from contemporaries for the betrayal of "Russians" and, especially, "all-Russian interests", in war as in war, and in politics as in politics.
In 1224, Novgorod and Pskov enjoyed watching the Germans capture Yuryev (Tartu) because Prince Vyachko, the protege of their political adversary Yuri Vsevolodovich, strengthened there.

[the lord]

Well, in terms of intelligence, they have conquered the Bulgars before us. And among them there were many who knew our lands. They had nothing to fit in with for us and endure any torment. They could easily tell you how and where to ... Yes, and the Chinese very well learned to torture the Mongols from the Chinese - read the best students in this matter. plus natural indifference to the value of life ....

[Black joe]

Filthy bloodstained Russian land
The locusts descended
And moans reigned in every house

[lwimu1976]

Quote: XII Legion

lwimu1976 5 Yesterday, 13:32 ↑
How did they get around the city? River road. Forests!
Pedestrians from Novgorod! 600 with a hook. (Sugak river hook.)
So you need to get the news! Think ...!
lwimu1976

0
lwimu1976 5 Yesterday, 18:28 ↑
Prince Yurya, Ambassador Dorozh, in the pastures of the 3rd, 1000s; and the Road, and the speech: "but already, prince, they have circled us around." And beginning the prince regiment, set beside you, and all of a sudden Tatarov came to you; the prince didn’t have anything, more; and would be in City, and comprehending, and, having beloved her, I would have died that. But God, how did he die: much more to speak about him or her. Rostov and Suzhdal spread apart rosy. But they came from the outskirts, having taken Moscow, Pereyaslavl, Yuriev, Dmitrov, Volok. Tfrev; the same son Yaroslavl killed.

[ver_]

Quote: znavel

Here you are ... it’s written in black in Russian, from the fourteenth century the church goes over to the side of Rusi- and Alexis comes to power and initiates the process for saving Russia from tearing between the horde and Lithuania. What else is there IMHO at Luga? And strengthening the church is not at all a natural process. Catholicism did not increase in Germany. but lost to lutheranism. in Britain, Protestantism.

..a little earlier. Ivan Kalita = Yaroslav Vsevolodovich precisely * oversaw * Church authority - Khan Batya, elder brother George was the Ruler .. After the death of George Yaroslav concentrated both branches of government - Church and Military ..

[NF68]

However, the winter offensive and the rapid advance of the Horde, who relatively easily crushed the resistance of the strong Ryazan principality,

In this regard, the question arises: how did the ordnians feed their horses? Indeed, in those parts of the winter there were always quite snowy ones. This is not the steppes of Mongolia or Central Asia where there is less snow and where nomadic cattle, under favorable conditions, at least somehow get to the grass.

[Alexey-74]

Thanks to the author. Yes, there were dark times. What fateful role did fragmentation play - each for itself, the united army of all the principalities could repel Batu, even after the Battle of Kalka ......

[co-creator]

the lord,

Quote: znavel

The Catholic Church lost it. In France, they won purely militarily. but the influence on the state has weakened incredibly. Suffice it to say that in the end this led first to the coming to power of the Huguenot Henry No. 4, and then to the revolution altogether. The papacy ceased its inquisitorial activities and shut up on issues of influence on politics. And so it happened soon where Catholicism survived for the main religion

Well, of course she lost, I’m talking about this. In the same way, the Orthodox Church lost. This is a common historical process.

[dekapolsev]

The new Chronology convincingly proved that there was no "Mongol-Tatar yoke." And it was - the conquest of the world by the Slavs, which started from the so-called "Vladimir-Suzdal Rus." So in this article they start right away from Ryazan and Kolomna, but where is the list of “Mongol victories” on the way to the same Kolomna? did they teleport there by air?

[co-creator]

Quote: svp67

Quotation: blooded man

Because there is NOTHING left of the Mongols

And what was to stay? They did not behave quite typically for invaders. With resistance, they destroyed everyone and everything, it’s me regarding the “genetic traces” ... the dead do not give birth. Under submission, they did not rape, they had enough money and humility.

Quotation: blooded man

What kind of know-how?

There are a lot of things. They abandoned heavy weapons, which were very expensive. This allowed them not only to sharply increase the army, so one combat unit became cheaper, and sharply increase maneuverability. Dramatically raised discipline and manageability. Unlike our troops, where each prince could be arbitrary, the Mongols did not allow this, under pain of death. Well-established intelligence.

Quotation: blooded man

Well this is a lie. They burned the city and robbed the church only on the road.

Give examples, we will analyze.

Quotation: blooded man

The infantry quite successfully fought in the defense against the professional military, and in the field as a tactical unit was not bad. She didn’t need any special weapons, either a spear or a spear, that’s all the weapon.

What kind of infantry? City regiment? Who had all the weapons that the prince's squad had? That one, yes, but a simple crowd, not protected by anything, would have been simply destroyed by any Mongol squad, even without a "dog dump", just arrows.

Quotation: blooded man

No, Moscow was helped by the money they received as monopolists of the Volga Trade Route. They bought the right to this monopoly from the Horde.

Not so simple. Do you know the theory of "take off on the hills"? The Moscow and Tver principalities became centers of gravity for the internal migration of the population, which fled from places previously inhabited and subjected to constant invasions and ruins. The transition to a three-field, which raised labor productivity. All these reasons allowed Moscow to rise from a simple specific principality to the Center of a large country

Invaders always behave typically depending on the tasks assigned. If the Mongols killed everyone, then why did the Russian population only grow?
Not raped? What did the Mongols use in their campaigns as a manhood or right hand tactic?
Enough money and obedience)) There was no obedience, judging by the chronicles, which means they should have killed everyone. Nobody voluntarily gave money either, which means robbery and .. violence.


And when and where did the nomads use heavy weapons before? What is the difference between the Rusich and the Mongols in terms of the cost of weapons? There were never knights in Russia, only rich warriors had chain mail like the Mongols, by the way.
Handling and stuff is not know-how. Since the Mongols could constantly keep professional warriors several times more than other nations?


Well, for example, Bogolyubsky sacked Kiev.

Ordinary infantry, militia can be said. How could the Mongols disperse them in the winter? In snowdrifts, was there anything in the open field? That was how the infantry stood on the sandpit field and no one dispersed it.


This theory is familiar to me. Very weak theory. Why run to the principalities that are raided by the Mongols and pay a huge tribute? The lands in these principalities are very poor and no triple-field system will give a large population increase, let alone large incomes. But the princes persistently go to the Horde and want to get a shortcut. After this receipt, the Moscow principality abruptly began to get rich, people began to settle in those places, Moscow princes were able to hire many soldiers and begin to subjugate the neighboring principalities with the help of the same Tatar military men. After subordination of the principalities, they began to build temples with gilded domes, new cities, monasteries. At the same time, the Mongols did not interfere with this !!!! So where did Moscow get so much money at once? Only one source could give them - this is trade in oriental goods with Europe. Moscow, having received a label for this trade, became the monopolist of the Volga Trade Route. This is what made it possible to attract Russians from all over Russia, to buy neighboring princes, and who did not agree to simply destroy.
Does this mean that before that there were no people in these principalities, there were no soldiers. No, of course. It was simply not enough to begin unification and expansion. It was impossible to properly trade Asian goods when there are dozens of khanates and hundreds of "Genghis Khan". The Mongol conquests and several large uluses (hordes) created on their basis allowed the Russian princes to ensure safe trade and the rise of a united Russia.

[co-creator]

Quote: znavel

Something you have accumulated here ... Although. it’s possible that I also got a little thought on the tree. I’ll try to clarify:
In the past, the Tatars were difficult to distinguish from the Slavs on the fact of a common centuries-old history. You, apparently, rest on the Mongoloid, Far Eastern suit. There were not so many of her ducks, and right now, quite a bit. And they coincided in armament, because it was the Polovtsy and Bulgars who were the basis of the horde that invaded us. The Mongols themselves were already perished; nevertheless, often according to their military tactics, they were not to be dragged.
Your troll’s fabrication about the fact that the princes and boyars were curly depicted, I will answer, the people and the squad, returning with victory, and many times on various occasions are depicted. Only a very stupid person can believe that everything looked as the author showed. Scientists in frescoes note the common and frequently found elements of life and rituals. The artist wanted to convey the holiday, he painted everyone more beautifully)))))
Regarding the correctness of calling Tatars or Tartars, I mentioned the east, and you played a fool and didn’t understand the type. And it was very easy to understand. Since the Tatars were called tartars in the west, then they should also be called in the east. Find me sources from the east, where the Tatars were called tartars. and their land is tartaria. The East was always closer to them than the West, right?
And about the West, find me sources. where Tartaria is mentioned before the Tatars invaded Europe. This is nowhere to be found, but you try))))) And you should look for evidence of this, because it is you who claim it.
And about the Mughals, as I understand it, you want to ascribe this term to us? Like, they called our ancestors and it was they who invaded India and created an empire there, so what?
About the scientists whom you for some reason attributed not to contemporaries, I did not understand. I just wrote that the then scientists, seeing the Tatars and their cruelty, learning about the cold climate of those places, simply combined the name "Tatars" with the Greek "Tartar". The chroniclers and scientists of the time were not worried about the evidence and reliability from the word at all. It turned out to glue the successful hypothesis and go! Beautifully)))))
And finally, if you still claim your stupidity for the truth, you just want to ask: i.e. it was our ancestors who invaded Poland and Hungary, having previously burned Ryazan, Vladimir, Moscow, Tver, Kiev and so on, right? What good fellows, however. It remains to ask, why then did the Magyars and Poles not call us by our name, but use some kind of "tartar"? We kind of knew each other for a long time and repeatedly presented)))))

If the Tatars were difficult to distinguish from the Russians, then why did the Europeans think that it was the Tatars who attacked them? Moreover, everything falls into place.
Where did the Polovtsy and Bulgars get so many soldiers? Aliens brought in?
I am glad that we found out one thing - there were no Mongols, but there were Türks.
I don’t have any fabrications. Look at the icons where Jesus is always curly, they did exactly the same with the princes to make them stand out among other soldiers. Very strange, that means we don’t believe artists, but we believe chroniclers. Oh well. The frescoes show the main thing who fought with whom. If Basurman, then they always have either distinctive external data or banner they have different from their squads. It has always been and always will be. You can trace this for example by the Ottoman conquests.
You confused yourself. With what joy should the east use the names of the west? DO YOU THINK IT YOURSELF? Why should the Arabs of the Bulgars be called tartars? People in the east called all the tribes by their proper names.
I do not understand anything . Tatars invaded Europe, but Europeans do not know about them and write about tartar. Are you suggesting that I look for a source about tartars earlier than the tartars invaded? What is it like ? I suppose that you should find a source where the Tatars called the Tartars before the invasion of Europe.
About the Mughals. I do not ascribe this term to anyone, but simply quote the annals. It was you who invented the Mongol, not me.
You are a strange person. Having no reason, call the Tatars the Greek word TARTARS and at the same time cite the translation. Well then be nice and translate the Greek word MOGOL. Be consistent. Why TARTARS are precisely the Tatars who were invented not by contemporaries. Strange you put forward hypotheses, but you refuse this right to me. On what basis?
Well, about the fact that everyone who contradicts official science was stupid even Copernicus and Gallileo knew. This is nothing new.
Like that . The combined army of Rus and Turks (later the Golden Horde) invaded Europe and walked in a skating rink, who was the main thing there. That is why they called this army TARTARS, and not specifically the Mongols or Rusichs. Frescoes, archeology and everything else shows that the Europeans did not see any narrow-eyed conquerors (although they probably were there too). The Türks and Russians, as we found out, were nothing in appearance and did not differ in armament. If you want, I will give you an example of how such intrusions were described earlier and later. For example, the Roman legions consisted of warriors of different nationalities, but wrote only about the Romans. It was exactly the same with Macedonian, Napoleon and others. About Napoleon, too, if you take fiction (count the annals). Do you find mention of Germans and Poles in Borodino’s verse?
About the fact that before that they burned Vladimir, Kiev, etc. even no conspiracy theories are needed. Feudal wars are called where the Tatars and Moguls took an active part. You do not mind that the Russian princes slaughtered each other before the Mughals and during the Mughals correctly. You are not confused by the Latvian arrows, white belts and others during the civil war of 17-23 years.
My opinion does not coincide with yours, but please be kind enough to speak out reasonably. Remember you look at Giordano Bruno and Galileo.

[the lord]

"If the Tatars were difficult to distinguish from the Russians, then why did the Europeans think that it was the Tatars who attacked them? Moreover, everything falls into place."
But it’s just that nothing is getting up there; as the invader calls himself, they call him that. A rumor of his strength and power. which was confirmed a lot in their European campaigns forced to connect mysticism. It is important that later, no talk of any “tartars” has passed; time has passed and the fear has vanished)))))
"Where did the Polovtsy and Bulgars get so many soldiers? Have the aliens brought in?"
Nowhere did the Polovtsi recruit anyone –– they recruited –– and there were plenty of them + many more different ones from the Caucasus and more eastern steppes. Recruiting in a warring country appeared before the very concept))))).
"I am glad that we found out one thing - there were no Mongols, but there were Türks"
Where did I say this about the Mongols? Quite the contrary, the Mongols were and they were at the head of this whole process. No one will ever give up power voluntarily, only as a result of fierce competition or defeat. Here the Chinese led them as a result of competition, intrigue and deceit.)))))) And by our time of conquest, they did not know the defeats of the strong)))))
"I don’t have any fabrications. See the icons where Jesus is always curly, they did the same with the princes to distinguish them from other soldiers. It’s very strange, we don’t believe artists, but we believe chroniclers."
Here - neighing))))) Jesus is shown curly because he is from the Mediterranean, where many of them live)))). But on the frescoes, curly, we depicted when they wanted to convey the holiday. And there they depict everyone from all classes in such a way)))))) And yes, then “artists” cannot be trusted in authenticity. When you defeated the enemy, you can show him and how he really looked. But when he won dry, so that he wouldn’t beat his princes hard on the beits. And then they, because of their temper, can blind the “artists”. so as not to mislead him in the morning)))). So they painted both enemies of the Tatars and ours alike, so as not to squeeze the patriotic in the chest, but not bile)))))) By the way, among the Tatars, the predominance of the heritage of the Finno-Perm and Finno-Volga populations of the Volga-Ural region was revealed. This is the question of similarity with the Slavs.
And to cite the example of the Ottomans, the top zashkvara. There is no way to look at the frescoes of the Ottomans if they lost)))))))) (no alternative, you see) We looked at the meticulousness of their "artists".
"You yourself have confused yourself. With what joy should the East use the names of the West? Have you come up with this yourself? Why should the Arabs of the Bulgars call Tartars? People in the East called all the tribes their names"
That’s all - just an epic patch. That is, the name "Tatars" is a western name? And the name of the invaders according to the annals. like the Tatars, is that a notion? Those. those who described these ruins a little later than the invasion and later all the time the horde population called the Tatars, did it take it from someone from the west?
You know. I’ll clearly try to ask for such stupidity. so that you already understand questions when you have questions. Firstly, the Tatars themselves call themselves "Tatars" and this name has been featured since the 8th century, if finally not earlier. And they are called the Tatars in all Russian annals of the horde since it became irrelevant to call the Kipchaks or Bulgars due to the much greater diversity of peoples. The Mongols - it is used less and less because of the rarity of the Mongols among the Tatars in those days (worn out during the wars) and the greater preference of the horde population specifically for the "Tatars". So "tatarlar" is precisely the eastern name, and not the western one. The West, by this very name, defined the concept of “tartars,” and I say that it was done to mystify the appearance of this enemy. which it was difficult to defeat (and not defeat at all, but to leave to fight for the Golden Horde throne, otherwise ..))) Secondly, if the "Tartars" are still the true name of the Tatars, and Tartaria is their country (which. for some reason, our empire and we and the Tatars called it that)), where is the mention of Tartaria among their neighbors, China. Khorezm, Bukhara, the same Polovtsy and Bulgars? It is precisely to this question that I cannot get an answer from you. If Tartaria is the name that Europeans gave us or the Tatar Turks, then this country was called with us (or the Tatar Turks). What was it called China, Khorezm, Iran?))))) If the Tartars are us, and all this is our war among themselves, then why are Europeans not calling us that? Why, before the invasion of the Tatars, did Europeans call us Slavs or Russians, or whatever, but not "Tartars"?
"I didn’t understand anything. The Tatars invaded Europe, but the Europeans do not know about them and write about the tartars. Do you suggest looking for a source about the tartars earlier than the tartars invaded? Is that so? I suppose you should find a source where the Tatars called tartars before the invasion of Europe "
And you really didn’t understand why I ask to find a source about Tartaria before the Tatars invaded Europe? You ask how is it? But like this. Tartaria was supposed to be before the invasion of the Tatars in Europe. And merchants, missionaries simply had to hear about it, since it was such a powerful and vast country. What is incomprehensible to you here. And that's why I should look for this source, when I consider the very existence of tartaria to be delirium, that's how the bastard is))))))
"If you want, I will give you an example of how such invasions were described earlier and later. For example, the Roman legions consisted of warriors of different nationalities, but wrote only about the Romans. It was the same with the Macedonian, Napoleon and others. The same about Napoleon if we take fiction (count the annals). Do you find mention of Germans and Poles in Borodino’s verse? "
Here is your opus about nothing at all. The imperial armies called the Romans and the French by the real empire, but give me an example of the name of the Tatars as tartars DURING the campaign itself. Bring these annals, and it smells a lot of bullshit))))) And again, why no one talks about Tartaria both in Russia and Bulgaria, since this is such a huge country and we enter it?)))))) And almost not the titular nation)))))
"About the fact that before that Vladimir, Kiev, etc. were burned, even no conspiracy theories are needed. Feudal wars are called where the Tatars and Moguls took an active part. You are not embarrassed that the Russian princes slaughtered each other before the Moguls and during Mughals right "
Just wrong: Why would our ancestors, after such a devastating civil war, and even to seize foreign lands of foreigners and Gentiles? The memory of the fate of Svyatoslav lost in the labyrinths of the mind?)))))) Who attacks the still undigested, completely alien lands, which have no right when most of its cities are in ruins? That's exactly the one who will attack. who won the war like that. that his cities remained intact and there is someone to fight. And if I am "a stupid loss in the deceit of official science." Tell me, who won the war. in which Ryazan, Vladimir, Nizhny Tver, Kiev were erased? On which side among these winners were our Rusichs and what were the names of these Russian princes?))))) Which of our Russians governor took part in campaigns in Poland and Hungary and how much was their influence in the horde? And if we lost to the Tatars (or Mongols), then why is this a civil war? When Russia joined Tartaria
And a little excursion about the Mughals, what is this translation from Greek, if it is from the history of India? Or was it drawn to you by the inability to ridicule the Greek origin of the concept of Tartarus? Finally, it’s stupid, the bottom is already punched)))))))

[co-creator]

Quote: znavel

But it’s just that nothing is getting up there; as the invader calls himself, they call him that. A rumor of his strength and power. which was confirmed a lot in their European campaigns forced to connect mysticism. It is important that later, no talk of any “tartars” has passed; time has passed and the fear has vanished)))))

So what did they call themselves? TARTATS?

Quote: znavel

Nowhere did the Polovtsi recruit anyone –– they recruited –– and there were plenty of them + many more different ones from the Caucasus and more eastern steppes. Recruiting in a warring country appeared before the very concept)))))

Russia fought with the Polovtsy and Bulgars for a long time and there have never been so many warriors there. An army from different ethnic groups and especially nomadic peoples is almost impossible to bring to high combat efficiency. There should always be a core of one ethnos and one people.

Quote: znavel

When you defeated the enemy, you can show him and how he really looked. But when he won dry, so that he wouldn’t beat his princes hard on the beits. And then they, because of their temper, can blind the “artists”. so as not to mislead him in the morning)))).)

NONSENSE. If this was so, then the annals should be identical.

Quote: znavel

By the way, among the Tatars, the predominance of the heritage of the Finno-Permian and Finno-Volga populations of the Volga-Ural region was revealed. This is the question of similarity with the Slavs.

Heh. Finno-Ugric does not differ in appearance from the Slav even today. The European Tatars are certainly not like the Mongols, but for some Germans the same Russians with only dark hair.

Quote: znavel

And to cite the example of the Ottomans, the top zashkvara. There is no way to look at the frescoes of the Ottomans if they lost)))))))) (no alternative, you see) We looked at the meticulousness of their "artists".

The Ottomans at Vienna lost.

Quote: znavel

That’s all - just an epic patch. That is, the name "Tatars" is a western name? And the name of the invaders according to the annals. like the Tatars, is that a notion? Those. those who described these ruins a little later than the invasion and later all the time the horde population called the Tatars, did it take it from someone from the west?

The name of the Tatars in Europe was not used. You yourself write TARTATES, not Tartars. In European chronicles TARTARS and only then decided that Tartars = Tatars.
.

Quote: znavel

Firstly, the Tatars themselves call themselves "Tatars" and this name has been featured since the 8th century, if finally not earlier. And they are called the Tatars in all Russian annals of the horde since it became irrelevant to call the Kipchaks or Bulgars due to the much greater diversity of peoples.

I have a lot of Tatars in the city and everyone self-calls themselves “Bulgars”.
There is no reference to the Tatars in the annals of the people. Most likely this is also the same as the Lithuanian people on.

Quote: znavel

So "tatarlar" is precisely the eastern name, and not the western one. The West, by this very name, defined the concept of "tartars" and I affirm

Get rid of TARTAR and Tatarlar is one and the same, while in no annals there are no Tatarlars. the logic. Then the Romans and Italians are one and the same. That's the tsimus that contemporaries Europeans fought with TARTARS, not Tatars, and only then scientists decided that it was one and the same.

Quote: znavel

Secondly, if "Tartars" is still the true name of the Tatars, and Tartaria is their country (which, for some reason, also our empire and we and the Tatars called it that), then where are the references to Tartaria among their neighbors - China. Khorezm, Bukhara, the same Polovtsy and Bulgars? It is precisely to this question that I cannot get an answer from you.

I have no idea why you got the idea that the Tartars are Tatars? In Europe there are 17th century maps with TARTARIES where the Tatars are a tribe that is located in modern Mongolia. That is, Europeans in the 17th century considered everything that was east of the Moscow principality to be tartaria. Until the 17th century, it was Moscow, that Kazan was the same for Europe. The world for them ended with Kiev.
China, Bukhara, Russia, of course, didn’t know any tartaria, because they had their own names. For example, in the 15th century, all foreigners for them were Germans or Fryazians (Italians). Then the British sailed and began to call them separately.

Quote: znavel

If the Tartars are us, and all this is our war among themselves, then why are Europeans not calling us that? Why, before the invasion of the Tatars, did Europeans call us Slavs or Russians, or whatever, but not "Tartars"?

We are not Tatars, we are Russians. Once again in all the chronicles of TARTAR and no TARTALAR. The thing is that it was a united army of Russians, Turks, Cheremis, etc. , directed by the Turk Batu. Since the command of this army was apparently Turkic and many peoples to Europeans were simply unknown, they all called TARTARS together. Either then such a tradition was, or indeed it was done on purpose, at least some mention of Russians, Mordovians, Komans and Polovtsians can be found.

[the lord]

What tartata? I write exclusively about TATAR, and I consider this name true only, what are you talking about? What a united army of the Batu Turk, when he was just from the Mongol. Who participated in this campaign from the Russians? What were the names of the Russian governors in this combined army? Where did the people come from in Russia after such a pogrom? Or are you confusing us with China? Answer these questions
Now once again about such a technical moment, give sources where the invasion of some tartars is mentioned! Text, please, from these sources (annals, peace treaties).
You yourself already write that in Europe documents of the 17th century mention tartaria, i.e. times when we Russians would definitely have this name in the annals, but it doesn’t exist in them at all. From this we can conclude that these territories were called Tartaria retroactively, appealing to the similarly named adverbs of the main part of the population then. They simply combined the Greek tartar and the self-name of the Tatars (and you can lie to me arbitrarily that they call themselves Bulgars right now, I have a mother-in-law from Kazan). Bulgars themselves are called Tatar Natsik and for the simple reason that this is a more ancient name of their people)))))).
By the way, in the European chronicles there really isn’t exactly “Tatarlar” - it was too complicated and not necessary (then there was no real science, therefore simplifications were allowed to insanity - no one punished for this). And China, Bukhara and Russia didn’t know any tartaria simply because there were no tartaria. There was a horde. which very soon scattered into many khanates, where every gopher in the field is an agronomist. Such is the nature and misfortune of the Türks — greed for power. Plus a halal worldview))).
And most importantly, if we take the option that the Europeans of the invading invaders called tartars for generalization, then with what fright they, these invaders. began to call themselves that? Did you like the name?
In short, mention of the request to the studio, mention of exactly the tartar dating back to the time of the invasion of Europe; mentions of Russians in this army, pzhalst; mention of tartaria in the eastern and southern neighbors of this same. the notorious tartaria. If you find, I will be grateful. But to believe that the Tatars and I were in the same state long before the Genghisides, it was we who invaded Europe with them. under this wonderful name, alas, I can’t, because there is no evidence of at least the 11th century. Find, see, study and admit guilt. and so ... Alas

[co-creator]

Quote: znavel

But like this. Tartaria was supposed to be before the invasion of the Tatars in Europe. And merchants, missionaries simply had to hear about it, since it was such a powerful and vast country. What is incomprehensible to you here. But that’s why I should look for this source, when I consider the very existence of tartaria to be delirium, like that, bastard))))))

Why should tartaria exist? TARTAR is not a nation, but the Greek word. Merchants and missionaries were in Russia, they knew who the Tatars, Polovtsy, Bulgars were. Missionaries even knew about their empire about the Mongols. Moreover, when the Mongols and Tatars attack Europe, suddenly the missionaries forget the names of these peoples and tribes, calling everyone the Greek word TARTARS, and how they completely forgot about the Mongol empire is incomprehensible. It is immediately clear to the child that the Tartars are not a people or a state, but simply a designation of a strong enemy. After all, they were not conquered, not overlaid with tribute, but simply plundered and left.
Of course, the state of TARTARIA was not.

Quote: znavel

Here is your opus about nothing at all. The imperial armies called the Romans and the French by the real empire, but give me an example of the name of the Tatars as tartars DURING the campaign itself. Bring these annals, and it smells a lot of bullshit))))) And again, why no one talks about Tartaria both in Russia and Bulgaria, since this is such a huge country and we enter it?)))))) And almost not the titular nation))))

This is not a respected opus. That's right, the Romans and the French are imperial armies, and the Tartars are a combined army of different peoples of principalities and states. Therefore, instead of the Mongols, or at least the Tatars, they called him the Greek word.
So that's right, you write TARTARS = TATARS This is nonsense.
I already wrote earlier, or rather you wrote, Tartaria is a Greek word no more.

Quote: znavel

Why would our ancestors after such a devastating civil war and even to seize foreign lands of foreigners and Gentiles? The memory of the fate of Svyatoslav lost in the labyrinths of the mind?))))))

It was a permanent war where the princes and their squads participated. This did not concern the peasants much, what difference did they make, what Russian prince would rule their principality. So the fact of the matter is that there were no plans to seize European lands. Normal military operation to rob neighbors. Why, during the feudal wars, the Europeans went to the Crusades, and the Russians could not go to rob rich Europe or, for example, to impose trade preferences favorable to themselves. It's quite normal.

Quote: znavel

Who attacks the still undigested, completely alien lands, to which he has no right, when most of his cities are in ruins? That's exactly the one who will attack. who won the war like that. that his cities remained intact and there is someone to fight. And if I am "a stupid loss in the deceit of official science." Tell me, who won the war. in which Ryazan, Vladimir, Nizhny Tver, Kiev were erased?

Firstly, there were no "completely ruined" lands. .Archaeologists have long said that the annals exaggerated reality multiple times.
Secondly, the cities were all wooden and burned constantly and without any moguls. This is not the west where everything is stone.
Thirdly, the population of Russia only grew, which is impossible with complete extermination and destruction.
Fourth, no one won in the 13th century. Have you noticed that the Mongols only once in 1240-43 made a trip to the rich west? What prevented them from repeating these trips at least once every 10-20 years? Because in Russia again the power struggle broke out in which Moscow won.

Quote: znavel

On which side among these winners were our Rusichs and what were the names of these Russian princes?))))) Which of our Russians governor took part in campaigns in Poland and Hungary and how much was their influence in the horde? And if we lost to the Tatars (or Mongols), then why is this a civil war? When Russia joined Tartaria

Those principalities that did not suffer during the Mughal invasion and were victors in this period of time. For example, Novgorod.
I don’t know which princes participated, and what influence it was difficult to say. Immediately how fun it is according to the annals, the Mongols slaughtered the entire elite and the local peoples fell in love with the Mongols and fought on their side. Only for some reason this did not happen to the Russians, miracles)
Well, when riches from one dynasty cut each other, then this is a feudal war called, or, according to modern civil war.
Russia could not join the Tartaria, as these are just words.

Quote: znavel

And a little excursion about the Mughals, what is this translation from Greek, if it is from the history of India? Or was it drawn to you by the inability to ridicule the Greek origin of the concept of Tartarus? Finally, it’s stupid, the bottom is already punched)))))))

Do you think that in the 13th century Russian chroniclers knew what was happening in India? ) If you are serious, then this is the bottom.
I believe that everything should be logical and cyclical. If you translate the word TARTAR, then translate the word MOGOL. These are both Greek words, they came to Russia through the church, to Europe through the epic.

[the lord]

"At the same time, when the Mongols and Tatars attack Europe, suddenly the missionaries forget the names of these peoples and tribes, calling everyone the Greek word TARTARS"
what a clumsy way to unsubscribe, no missionaries or merchants knew the words of the tartars. but they knew the Tatars and the Mongols. as well as Polovtsy and Bulgars. But they used exactly this, because it is the TATARS most often called themselves the peoples of the horde. It just so happened. And the Greek Tartarus has nothing to do with this. except for harmony. It happens. There was no Imongolian empire - there was an empire of the Mongols, a horde with a huge number of peoples, mainly of Turkic origin. That same Tatarlar)))))
"Here it is clear to the child that tartars are not a people and not a state, but simply a designation of a strong enemy"
Yeah, it’s just for the children that may be understandable. and to an adult it’s completely unclear why so suddenly. then any conqueror named his recut. and here you are, Asians declared. whom we will call the Greek word, so as not to suffer for a long time))))). And yes, the Tatars did not conquer Europe. but not because it was not a task, but because they themselves in the horde began graters for succession and later their separs appeared. Not to Europe already. Likewise, Byzantium began to offer those who bought it, but in the south with halal concrete turbulence began - there were many more enemies there than in Europe.
"there were no" completely devastated "lands. Archaeologists have long said that the annals exaggerated reality multiple times."
And how can one assess the degree of ruin if in Kiev only isolated cases of pre-Mongol coins have survived? How can one find the degree of ruin when cities were burned. and its last inhabitants perished in the central temples? The Mongols did not touch only the clergy and shamans, so as not to offend the spirits, and the rest were robbed and killed mercilessly. He’s such a warrior’s path .... And our cities, of course, also sometimes burned, but they didn’t destroy them in that feud, but took them under their possession. Therefore, they went bankrupt as carefully as possible, so as not to lose income, do not compose. And the population of Russia constantly grew- doctors and fictions. Especially against the background of the fact that no statistics were kept at all, again, the bullshit. And about the fact that no one won there and why the Mongols did not make regular trips to Europe, so there was work in the south — don’t mourn, the nature of the Tatars turned out to be rotten. They began to make intrigues to each other and lost to Byzantium and Russia, but then ...
"Those principalities that did not suffer during the Mughal invasion and were victors in this period of time. For example, Novgorod." - Another godfather of the level of God)))). Those. those to whom they did not reach and won. We fought with the hooligans yesterday, as long as they caught up with us. we would definitely beat them))))).
"I don’t know which princes participated and it was difficult to say what influence it was. It’s just how fun it is according to the annals, the Mongols cut out the entire elite and the local peoples fell in love with the Mongols and fought on their side. Only for some reason this did not happen to the Russians, miracles)"
Ahahahaha, you’re just Petrosian, how fun and provocatively it turned out. And if you strain the gyrus, then for the Bulgars and Polovtsy, the Mongols were not such antagonists. as for rusich. A completely different culture and common Turkic origin both fought ours much harder and lost a lot. It’s like in our confrontation with the Chechens and dill. With the Chechens, a concrete fight to the victory, because in case of victory, either the Russian world or Wahhabism in the North Caucasus. And with dill, soft power. intrigue. backstage. for so and so is the Slavic world.
"Well, when the princes from one dynasty cut each other, then this is a feudal war called, or, in modern civil war"
What is this about? what dynasty are we talking about? Genghisides? Rurikovich? Have you again united us with the Tatars into one? Türks mixed with the Slavs? Are Christians with pagans and halal one vinaigrette?))) Are you more systematic there somehow, please.
“Russia could not join the tartaria, as these are just words,” - again, the bastard. Well these are your words about tartaria. No one except you alternatives uses this concept. It took you somewhere do not understand where))))
"Do you think that in the 13th century, Russian chroniclers knew what was happening in India?) If you are serious, then this is the bottom."
No, my friend, this is you bottom. The "Mughal" is used in the history of India and the Russians have nothing to do with it, since we only use the "Mongols". By a broad concept, this is about the same, only a couple of centuries a difference in another theater of action. Truth. there it seems Muslims invaded India, calling themselves Mughals and might not belong to the Mongols. Just like Tamerlan and Uzbek and Mamluks were in great authority, and therefore could be nicknamed that. A kind of cling))))))). In addition, you will find sources where the Russian Mongols are called the Moguls; we ask for mercy, but this is unlikely)))))

[co-creator]

Quote: znavel

what a clumsy way to unsubscribe, no missionaries or merchants knew the words of the tartars. but they knew the Tatars and the Mongols. as well as Polovtsy and Bulgars.

What are you talking about? I do not understand anything.

Quote: znavel

But they used exactly this, because it is the TATARS most often called themselves the peoples of the horde. It just so happened. And the Greek Tartarus has nothing to do with this. except for harmony. It happens.

Why do you write this to me? Go ask the chroniclers why they did not write clearly Tatars. I think you yourself are confused, then the Tartars, then the Tatars. There are chronicles and quote verbatim, no need to invent anything. If there is a chronicle where contemporaries wrote tartars these are Tatras then present.

Quote: znavel

There was no Imongolian empire - there was an empire of the Mongols, a horde with a huge number of peoples, mainly of Turkic origin. That same Tatarlar)))))

Well, this is your personal opinion that diverges from historical. For me, no Mongol empire was and could not be.

Quote: znavel

and here you are, Asians declared. which we will call the Greek word, so as not to suffer for a long time)))))

You laugh at yourself or Western chroniclers. I don’t understand.

Quote: znavel

And yes, the Tatars did not conquer Europe. but not because it was not a task, but because they themselves in the horde began graters for succession and later their separs appeared. Not to Europe already. Likewise, Byzantium began to offer those who bought it, but in the south with halal concrete turbulence began - there were many more enemies there than in Europe.

This is your version that contradicts the facts.

Quote: znavel

And how can one assess the degree of ruin if in Kiev only isolated cases of pre-Mongol coins have survived? How can one find the degree of ruin when cities were burned. and its last inhabitants perished in the central temples?

COINS HERE WHAT? Who told you about the last inhabitants?

Quote: znavel

The Mongols did not touch only the clergy and shamans, so as not to offend the spirits, and the rest were robbed and killed mercilessly. He’s the way of a warrior ....

As I understand it, everyone was killed. You do not tell me if everyone was killed, then who remained?

Quote: znavel

And our cities, of course, also sometimes burned, but in that feud they were not destroyed, but taken under their possession. Therefore, they went bankrupt as carefully as possible, so as not to lose income, do not compose.

Listen if the city resists being burned. If you give up, then no. It has always been so and always will be. You write nonsense about income here. The main income in those days was trade and agriculture. The route of the trade route is changing and the city is dying, for example, as happened with Kiev.

Quote: znavel

And the population of Russia constantly grew- doctors and fictions. Especially against the background of the fact that no statistics were conducted at all, again, the bullies.

It . Comrade, do you understand what you are writing? For 300 years, the population of Russia has grown so much that it was enough not only to settle until the wildest field, but also to Siberia. Population then compare at least the 18th century.

Quote: znavel

And about the fact that no one won there and why the Mongols did not make their regular trips to Europe, so in the south there was work — don’t mourn, the nature of the Tatars turned out to be rotten. They began to make intrigues to each other and lost to Byzantium and Russia, but then ...

Well, yes, trouble has sharply deteriorated in the South. Fun) Simply put, they again turned into nomads) But what about discipline and stuff? )))

Quote: znavel

another zashkvar of the level of God)))). Those. those to whom they did not reach and won. We fought with the hooligans yesterday, as long as they caught up with us. we would definitely beat them))))).

Who didn’t get? Yes, the princes who helped the Mongols defeated, they then took the places of their relatives in these principalities. What the Mongols thought was not interesting to anyone, since they both came and went.

Quote: znavel

And if you strain the gyrus, then for the Bulgars and Polovtsy, the Mongols were not such antagonists. as for rusich. A completely different culture and common Turkic origin both fought ours much harder and lost a lot.

Does the Mongol have the same culture with the Mordvins? This is a new discovery. What does it mean ours fought harder? The Mongols in all countries have cut out all the nobility, and this is 10% of the minimum population and also the population of over dofig. There were no exceptions. After this, of course, you can recruit locals into the army, but they will flee to Nafik in the first battle. THAN RUSSIANS WORSE THAN MORDVINS AND OTHER FINO-UGRA?
Well, and of course, if you strain your brain and realize that the Rusich and Tatars are antagonists, then no 300 year yoke is possible.

Quote: znavel

What is this about? what dynasty are we talking about? Genghisides? Rurikovich? Have you again united us with the Tatars into one? Türks mixed with the Slavs? Are Christians with pagans and halal one vinaigrette?))) Are you more systematic there somehow, please.

Hmm The question was about Rurikovich or did I misunderstand?

Quote: znavel

back in the middle. Well these are your words about tartaria. No one except you alternatives uses this concept. It took you somewhere do not understand where)))

Sideler? Uh, no. TARTARIA is a Western concept, I am only quoting. You alternatives see one word, and pronounce another.

[co-creator]

Quote: znavel

But this opus finally zashkvar. It was the church that stood up for the interests of the horde. It so happened that with the yoke in Russia the church, on the contrary, received enormous preferences. The Mongols, the great mystics themselves, never touched any priests and shamans. The same misfortune happened in Russia. They received protection from all encroachments and even blasphemy of the church (which was completely justified - we believed in your Christ, and in the end we lost to the Gentiles, how so?) They retained all their possessions and property, and many received reliefs as independence from the princes. You can even simply type something like “church politics towards the horde” and you will see a bunch of sites telling about it. True, at the same time they are in every possible way justifying themselves and bothering, but in reality everything comes out clearly to disgust. Secular power collapsed, and the religious took maximum advantage of this, and even intended to divide between the enemies of the territory. Such a good church .... God's)))))

Zashkvar is when giving his theory as truth. THE CHURCH WAS ON THE SIDE OF LOCAL Princes, and there could have been no other way; otherwise this church would have been dispersed to hell with dogs. It’s just that in one morning they would slaughter all the priests and that’s it. It would simply be no one to protect them since there were no Mongol garrisons in Russia. And if you follow your abstruse theory, the Mongols no matter what religion their vassals have, Orthodoxy, Catholicism or paganism.
All that you describe is simply an attempt to explain why the church did not call to fight against the Busurman, they say she was bribed. Well, if you are a stupid person, then this is the correct theory, if you are smart then asking yourself a couple of questions you will understand how historians are pulling an “owl on the globe” to confirm their theories about IGO.

[the lord]

And here is another zashkvar-with his priests after such a defeat someone began to cut out for switching to the side of the winner? Who was to exercise? Something no one has flooded Sasha Nevsky for his alliance with murderers)))))))) And do you imagine priests like God's lambs walking without any protection with the only protection in the form of a corpse on the cross? )))))) Namely, having retained their possessions and property, the priests dramatically changed the balance of forces. (I'm not talking about the foreign origin of the top - the Bulgars and the Greeks). The shame of defeat fell on the shoulders of our ancestors for a long time, and the inability to resist the Christian obscurantists, who could have devoured, having accused of hereticism or demonism, there were no equal to them)))))). Remember with what difficulty later Alexis sought the unity of Russia. You are really stupid, and especially in trying to blame others for "owls on globes"))))

[co-creator]

Quote: znavel

And here’s another zashkvar-

Sidelets or what?

Quote: znavel

with h his priests after such a defeat someone began to cut for switching to the side of the winner? Who was to exercise? Something no one has flooded Sasha Nevsky for his alliance with murderers)))))))) And do you imagine priests like God's lambs walking without any protection with the only protection in the form of a corpse on the cross? )))))))

From the fact that they kept the priests so that they would explain to the common people why they should love and serve the princes. If the priests do not. then they are not needed.
and WHO NEVSKI SHOULD POOR AND WHAT?
Well, that’s how it is, only the local prince or the community could protect the priest.

Quote: znavel

The shame of defeat fell on the shoulders of our ancestors for a long time, and the inability to resist the Christian obscurantists, who could have devoured, having accused of hereticism or demonism, there were no equal to them)))))).

Write nonsense. Once again, the prince could destroy all the priests in one night. If the priest opposes the prince he is a corpse.

Quote: znavel

Remember with what difficulty later Alexis sought the unity of Russia. You are really stupid, and especially in trying to blame others for "owls on globes"))))

Again you have nonsense or a story you don’t know. The Bolsheviks came and dispersed the church in a few years. Who are the Bolsheviks? This is 90% of the Russian people and churches destroyed by the Russians and the priests also killed the Russians. And this is a million people and tens of thousands of parishes. And here you are trying to suck me in, that a couple of thousand monks were sent to he ... Russian princes and went to the service of the horde?

[the lord]

"Sideler or what?"
Looking for sidekicks? Duck is not here))))
"From the fact that they kept the priests so that they would explain to the common people why they should love and serve the princes."
Ah, that's what priests are for? Well, everything is clear now, now everything fell into place. Of course, who should the church serve, to the fined princes, who became impoverished after the invasion. After all, the Greeks and Bulgarians (incidentally, the Turks by origin) just give the poor Russian princes to work across the Horde khans. And do not care that the khans left their property behind them. That they have their gold, yes lands, and monasteries- They will tear any Russian to the British flag! And Nevsky, too, could be trampled upon for cooperation with the invaders. Well these are foreigners and foreigners, and he made friendship with them. This is right now the Nevsky prince is a saint. and then it was evaluated extremely ambiguously. Only the strength was not to overthrow him, because in friends with the horde went. Yes. traanuli it later, but something like this, a common practice for Genghisides. They also dealt with their purebred. Asia .... And the priest, in addition to the weak princes, defended their mercenaries, their squads, plus the status of the sanctity of the holy dignity.))))) And the illiteracy of the population.
"The Bolsheviks came and dispersed the church in a few years. Who are the Bolsheviks?"
And here you are, the most despicable boor, again got bogged down. You tried the victorious Bolsheviks, who were guided by the historical experience of the exceptional parasitism of our Russian Orthodox Church, overthrew its power and settled them, compared them to the losers who were completely defeated by the Russian princes. governors and boyars. In part, due to the fault of the church (the princes of Vladimir bowed to the Horde and were executed there because of Christian stupidity instilled by the church). The former had a victory in the revolution and the military campaign, akin to a world war (given how many countries were involved in this war), and the latter had terrible defeats, a dry loss and total dependence on the horde, consisting of those whom they treated with contempt and feeling excellence. Therefore, several tens of thousands of monks sent Russian princes and began to rule their affairs in full. Yes, they threatened to betray any anathema if it started to buzu. And this anathema was always sent with the Tatars - to burn. beat))))))

[co-creator]

Quote: znavel

Looking for sidekicks? Duck is not here))))

You don’t need to be greased or you messed up the pinhole with the cracklings

Quote: znavel

Ah, that's what priests are for? Well, everything is clear now, now everything fell into place.

And in your opinion for what?

Quote: znavel

Of course, who should the church serve, to the fined princes, who became impoverished after the invasion. After all, the Greeks and Bulgarians (incidentally, the Turks by origin) just give the poor Russian princes to work across the Horde khans. And do not care that the khans left their property behind them.

The priest will serve those on whose land he lives, does not like in the river or in the horde. Everything is very simple and there is no dependence on a poor prince or is poor. The horde no matter what religion the vassal has and who the priests are by nationality, this is the prince’s internal affair.

Quote: znavel

And do not care that the khans left their property behind them. That they have their gold, yes land, yes monasteries- They will tear any for Russia to the British flag

You write stupidity and you don’t understand it yourself. The prince has a squad, the priest has a naked jo ... pa and privileges from the horde. There are no Horde residents to the principalities, and the priest will do what a man with a weapon tells him, and here it makes no difference whether he loves Russia or not. This is if you approach from a selfish position, and if you argue from the perspective of a medieval man, then for them religion was higher than life and gold. Serving the Gentiles is like giving up Jesus and his father; it is unacceptable.

Quote: znavel

And Nevsky, too, could be trampled upon for cooperation with the invaders.

Who occupied whom? Where are the attributes of the occupation.

Quote: znavel

Well these are foreigners and foreigners, and he made friendship with them. This is right now the Nevsky prince is a saint. and then it was evaluated extremely ambiguously. Only the strength was not to overthrow him, because in friends with the horde went

He is a prince with whom he wants and is friends. Faith did not change, Christians (boyars and merchants in the first place) protect their own. Everything's Alright . Of course, not a saint, but he did nothing beyond the bounds.

Quote: znavel

Yes. traanuli it later, but something like this, a common practice for Genghisides.

Can you prove it? It is not even known where he died, and about the poisoning is simply a beautiful church story.

Quote: znavel

And the priest, in addition to the weak princes, defended their mercenaries, their squads, plus the status of the sanctity of the holy dignity.))))) And the illiteracy of the population.

What? What are nafik squads? ) IMMEDIATE REMOVED AT ONCE, it is enough to go to the prince and say that the Greek priest sold out to the pagans Tatars and tomorrow you will take your children into slavery. If you take into account. that the simple population of the majority of Christians were only on paper the result is clear.

Quote: znavel

And here you are, the most despicable boor, again got bogged down.

Again confused with cracklings with cracklings?

Quote: znavel

You tried the victorious Bolsheviks, who were guided by the historical experience of the exceptional parasitism of our Russian Orthodox Church, overthrew its power and settled them, compared them to the losers who were completely defeated by the Russian princes. governors yes boyars

Again delirium. The Bolsheviks brought devastation, banditry and hunger. What a nah victory, around devastation.

Quote: znavel

In part, due to the fault of the church (the princes of Vladimir bowed to the Horde and were executed there because of Christian stupidity instilled by the church).

No need to judge people by yourself. Du..rakov there simply wasn’t a bow to the horde, there are ambassadors for this. If the prince is traveling, then this is a very important matter, and the church has nothing to do with it.

Quote: znavel

The former had a victory in the revolution and the military campaign, akin to a world war (given how many countries were involved in this war), and the latter had terrible defeats, a dry loss and total dependence on the horde, consisting of those whom they treated with contempt and feeling excellence.

You probably don’t understand what was going on in Russia in 1925.
There was no dependence on the horde; there is no evidence other than scribbles.

Quote: znavel

Therefore, several tens of thousands of monks sent Russian princes and began to rule their affairs in full. Yes, they threatened to betray any anathema if it started to buzu. And this anathema was always sent with the Tatars - to burn. beat))))))

You live in a parallel universe, it’s unique.

[the lord]

Yes, you, a little-minded, - a simple ignoramus)))))
“Who has occupied whom? Where are the attributes of the occupation.” - Have you heard anything about the label for the great reign? Where do you think Alexashka Nevsky got it? And his right to the Principality of Galicia, from whom did Prince Danil ask?
"The priest will serve those on whose land he lives, does not like in the river or in the horde."
Yes, shaw? !!!! Is the priest straight into the river? This is when the illiterate people after the pogrom pogrom and get work from the monasteries, but the taxes are moderate, unlike the princely requisitions, and the princes bow to the khan’s ambassadors - after that, to throw priests into the river? I would try what kind of prince to do this-at once on a pitchfork would be. And at that time, this order was maintained for a long time.
"You write stupidity and you don’t understand it yourself. The prince has a squad, the priest has a naked jo ... pa and privileges from the horde"
You yourself write that there were no attributes of the occupation and now right now I have been squandered on privileges from the horde))))) And why would the monasteries be naked? Unih and the troops were. Remember how Moscow Solovetsky monastery conquered. How much blood has spilled. And this is in those days when Moscow already had an army and had money and authority with power. At that time, the Greeks and Bulgarians in cassocks sent princes-beggars, but participated in the intrigues between them))).
And here is from your insanity)))):
you write that "and if you argue from the perspective of a medieval man, then for them religion was higher than life and gold. To serve the Gentiles is like giving up Jesus and his father, this is unacceptable." And then, nearby, "that the simple population of the majority of Christians were only on paper, the result is clear." )))))))
So were everyone in those days so headlessly faithful Christians. or, nevertheless, the pagans themselves were still in large numbers in Christianity, so as not to fall under the distribution from the church?))))) This is also the question of the power of the church, since many had to hide their true belonging by faith.
“Can you prove this? It is not even known where he died, and about the poisoning is simply a beautiful church story” - this is a question for Sasha Nevsky. Yes, there was no evidence that he was poisoned, but he died, returning from the horde, where he obtained the very attributes of an occupying power. Somehow it turned out so successfully that it was when he got out of there that he fell ill. But the true reason is not important here, for example, it was named so that you would not try to prove through this version that he was faithful only to Russia, and that he did not serve the horde and was not its vassal.
"You don’t need to judge people by yourself. Du..rakov there simply wasn’t a bow to the horde, there are ambassadors for this. If a prince is traveling, this is a very important matter and the church has nothing to do with it."
You’ve completely lost your guiding lines — I mentioned just that moment in this article, which describes the moment when the sons of the Grand Duke. they left in Vladimir to defend him, bowed to the Horde people to bow to them to pay off. And they did it at the instigation of the clergy)))) Another zashkvar!)))))
"What are the nafik squads?) IMMILITY REMOVED AT ONCE"
Ahahahaha, the mind is really small and not expensive. What “nafik” warriors? - Yes, the most ordinary ones. what kind of money are being earned, the same ones that serve for gold, as elsewhere))))) And remove immunity at once, with the absolute dependence of this procedure on Constantinople? Yes, yes, you reject the project of Constantinople on the division of Russia between Lithuania and the Horde - what to expect with such knowledge. And then what was great was Alex # 1?))))))
"The Bolsheviks brought devastation, banditry and famine. What a nah victory, all around devastation."
Bolsheviks brought ruin, banditry and hunger? And when did this happen? Before PMV or after? Where did the February butts begin? Who created the only successful law enforcement bodies in the history of Russia called the police and the GPU? And did someone manage to defeat the Bolsheviks? The people who created the second economy of the world in conditions of sanctions and isolation and who made a lot of feats. on which no one else could decide, these are just the losers people))))))))
“You probably don’t understand what was going on in Russia in 1925” - but what was going on there? The victory in the civil, the creation of the USSR, the beginning of industrialization, collectivization, educational reform, the electrification of the country, the beginning of the five-year plan, the opening of educational institutions, the victory over homelessness began the victories with malaria, plague, cholera. In Turkestan, the struggle against Basmachism ended in a complete victory over this movement. And many, many other things that made us a superpower.
"There was no dependence on the horde, there is no evidence other than scribbles"
And what besides "scribbles" can serve as evidence? The whole system of evidence is built on "scribble" everywhere and everywhere. Ah, yes, you are hinting at material traces - since this box is full - the places of battles, traces of the assault on cities, coinciding in time with these events. Also, independent sources telling about it. Maybe you’re going to hint at the lack of traces of the Tatars and the Mongols in the genome of our people? Duck, at that time in Russia there was such an order as foundlings under the walls of churches and monasteries. Of course, few people wanted to feed the Cove from the invaders. Most likely they got rid of it. I guess. that for several decades our monasticism has become slanting))))). And once again I remind you, in Europe. which was attacked after us - no one talks about the attack of the Slavs or does not mention the Slavs among the attackers. But they talk about the Tatars. And Danila Galitsky then often leads negotiations with the Magyars and Poles for an alliance in the fight against the horde.
"You live in a parallel universe, it’s unique."
It’s hard to disagree with you — our universe is parallel to yours, so go there, humanoid. You obviously got lost))))

[co-creator]

Quote: znavel

Have you heard anything about a label for a great reign?

Did you see them in your eyes? There are only 2 labels, and there are great reasons to consider them fakes.

Quote: znavel

Where do you think Alexashka Nevsky got it? And his right to the Principality of Galicia, from whom did Prince Danil ask?

Alexashka is who, what are you?
Label Nevskovo and Danila in the studio. You can simply imperial document in the Mongolian language where the khan calls them into the horde.

Quote: znavel

You yourself write that there were no attributes of the occupation and now right now I have been squinting at privileges from the horde)))))

Again, cracklings, are you half-dead?
Churches always give privileges even in our time, and Russian princes also gave her privileges. That they themselves occupied. I continued your logic, the prince has power, the priest has a naked jo ... pa and privileges from the horde on paper.

Quote: znavel

Unih and the troops were. Remember how Moscow Solovetsky monastery conquered. How much blood has spilled. And this is in those days when Moscow already had an army and had money and authority with power.

In the 13-14th CENTURY in Russia in every princedom there were monasteries like Solovetsky? Well, list what they were called and where they were.
For reference, all the Old Believers, the government very quickly pressed to the nail except the Solovki because of their location and too much authority.

Quote: znavel

At that time, the Greeks and Bulgarians in cassocks sent princes-beggars, but participated in the intrigues between them))).

Proof

Quote: znavel

I would try what kind of prince to do this-at once on a pitchfork would be. And at that time for a long time this order was maintained.

Yes, they did it all the time. Even when the power of the church was equal to the power of the tsar, without any problems they executed the metropolitans and removed the patriarchs. This is not the 13-14th century where the population of Rus Christians were only on paper.

Quote: znavel

You’ve completely lost your guiding lines — I mentioned just that moment in this article, which describes the moment when the sons of the Grand Duke. they left in Vladimir to defend him, bowed to the Horde people to bow to them to pay off. And they did it at the instigation of the clergy)))) Another zashkvar!)))))

Remove the greaves from the ears and it will be easier to live. According to the annals, the princes traveled to Horde personally at the request of the khan to obtain a label, which is nonsense. No one will go where they can kill, poison.
In general, I do not read Samsonov from the word at all, and that he writes there I have no idea.

Quote: znavel

Yes, the most common. what kind of money are gained, the very ones that serve for gold, as elsewhere)))))

Well, do you have chronicles where probably it is said about it?

Quote: znavel

And to remove immunity at the time, with the absolute dependence of this procedure on Constantinople?

If you are against power, then no one will help you. The princes easily sent back the metropolitans if they could not get along with them and Constantinople sent others.

Quote: znavel

Yes, yes, you reject the project of Constantinople on the division of Russia between Lithuania and the Horde - what to expect with such knowledge. And then what was great about Alex # 1?)))))

I personally do not see this project. The Greeks worked in fact, not projections. Lithuania demanded a separate metropolitan from Moscow and the Greeks after many years agreed. After Moscow strengthened and conquered Little Russia, the Kiev Metropolis was canceled and the Greeks again easily went for it.

Quote: znavel

The people who created the second world economy under sanctions

After the civil war was the second economy of the world? Get involved.

Quote: znavel

Victory in civil, the creation of the USSR, the beginning of industrialization, collectivization, educational reform, electrification of the country,

After the civil war there was famine, devastation and death. The Bolsheviks said, the church has innumerable wealth, they need to be taken away and we will have food. shelter, etc. - face. People came and demolished the church.

Quote: znavel

And what besides "scribbles" can serve as evidence? The whole system of evidence is built on "scribble" everywhere and everywhere.

Well, that's why historians as they want and write history. They wanted to write 100 thousand Mongols, changed their minds and wrote 30 thousand. That the busurman is sorry for them, all the same, there is nothing except the scribbles. In the real world, the evidence system is based on DOCUMENTS. Speak shortcuts gave? Present. Speak horde was part of the empire? Present the archive of this empire. ORDERS. ORDERS, correspondence of princes with overlords, khans with military leaders, etc. In the end, where are the annals of the horde itself.

Quote: znavel

Ah, yes, you are hinting at material traces - since this box is full - the places of battles, traces of the assault on cities, coinciding in time with these events.

In addition to the serpent castle there is essentially nothing. The rest is just an attempt by archaeologists to pull small finds by the Mongol yoke by ear. For example, the Vyarians left whole settlements and barrows, but there are a lot of burials from the Scythians from the Scythians. You at least find Kulikovo field.

Quote: znavel

More independent sources telling about it

They all tell from someone’s words. Who told them when, etc. A lot of questions.

Quote: znavel

Duck, at that time in Russia there was such an order as foundlings under the walls of churches and monasteries. Of course, few people wanted to feed the Cove from the invaders. Most likely they got rid of it.

Another version that would explain the inexplicable. If anything, then in Russia it wasn’t customary to go under busurmans, but here they looked 300 years and didn’t even try to get rid of it.

Quote: znavel

And once again I remind you, in Europe. which was attacked after us - no one talks about the attack of the Slavs or does not mention the Slavs among the attackers. But they talk about the Tatars.

Mentioned. They also talk about Mordvinians, Komans, but they don’t say anything about the Tatars.

Quote: znavel

And Danila Galitsky then often leads negotiations with the Magyars and Poles for an alliance in the fight against the horde.

Well done. Well, and how is he doing?

Quote: znavel

It’s hard to disagree with you — our universe is parallel to yours, so go there, humanoid. You obviously got lost))))

You do not forget to present the proofs, and then you can bring down the howl of mink.

[the lord]

Here you are u.poro.tok)))) This is a thirst to be even with a small brain and write this: "After the Civil War was the second economy of the world? Get busy"))))) Do you understand what you wrote? Yes, it was after the civil war that the second world economy was created!)))) It was not during this war that it was created. And in the civilian they still won, right? So why are you not victorious, o.lukh?
And Danila Galitsky is negotiating for an alliance against the horde with the Poles and Magyars — I gave this example to prove that Russia was conquered separately from the horde, which means there are no united forces and Russia is not perceived as a horde. And you lo. Fluff empty-headed, carrying all nonsense.
“There is essentially nothing besides the serpent's hillfort. The rest is simply an attempt by archaeologists to drag small finds to the Mongol yoke by the ears” - yes, of course our ancestors mainly lived for the sake of Pruffs for such stony-stone ones. All saved, so that the consort could not refute their existence)))))
And the priests who lead their service from Byzantium itself, of course, rely solely on the will of the princes and everyone perceives what these ignoramuses say, aha)))))
"Speak labels? Give? Present. Speak the horde was part of the empire? Present the archive of this empire" - and here again the bastard))))) the horde was not part of the empire — it was itself an empire, and Russia was its tributary. Present labels to you? Oh, my goodness, that’s because bad luck didn’t save these labels, because they were of such value in the country. which eventually declared war on all the Tatar khanates in turn. Well, so that it was clear to any rabble how humble princes were))))).
We can’t find a place where there was a Kulikovo battle, so we don’t really know anything about the battle of racquets and about the ice battle. Thanks to the Christians, who are either Greeks or Bulgarians — they openly wanted to go to Russia, especially to preserve its history — that is why they wanted to divide us between the horde and Lithuania. All is well if the flock is increasing.)))))
And in terms of riding in the horde for the label. Many went there themselves. to be in time earlier than the competitor. It was scary, but they went, she’s such a power))))).
And once again, I remind you of the children of the Grand Duke mentioned in the article, that, according to the Christian stupidity, they went to the Horde with a bow. to pay off, but were killed
“Do not forget to present the proofs” - but this is your whole bastard. My proofs in history books of the time. But since you are trying to refute it, present yours. Yes, not with arguments with the question “how could they do that?”, But with evidence that we were Tatars, that there was no invasion, but we beat ourselves like that. Yes, they beat themselves so. That, decreasing in number, they also attacked Europe, but with victories)))))). Present your "proofs". humanoid. Tell us about your parallel reality, Hristian.))))))