Military Review

Hakim semi-automatic rifle (Egypt)

83
Until the early fifties of the last century, Egypt did not produce weapon on their own. Seeing the current situation, the country's leadership made a principled decision to build new enterprises that were to produce new weapons and military equipment. Without having its own design school, Egypt was forced to seek help from foreign countries and acquire a license to produce several samples. One of the first types of weapons produced by the Egyptian industry under license was the Khakim self-loading rifle.


History The Hakim project dates back to the beginning of the forties. Back in 1941, the Swedish gunsmith Eric Eklund, who worked at AB CJ Ljungmans Verkstäder in Malmö, developed a new version of a self-loading rifle chambered for 6,5x55 mm. This weapon interested the army of Sweden, and in 1942, it was put into service under the designation Automatgevär m / 42 or Ag m / 42 Ljungman. Serial production of new rifles was launched at the Carl Gustafs Stads Gevärsfaktori factory. By the end of the decade, several tens of thousands of rifles were manufactured by the order of the Swedish and a number of foreign armies.


General view of the Hakim rifle. Photo of Wikimedia Commons


At the beginning of the 1950s, E. Eklund and his colleagues developed the Ag m / 42B project, which included upgrading the base rifle by replacing some parts. This made it possible to get rid of a number of existing problems and improve the operational characteristics of the weapon. By the mid-fifties, all the rifles in Sweden had been updated on a new project.

It should be noted that all orders for the production of Ag m / 42 rifles were fulfilled in the 1940s, and therefore at the beginning of the next decade a certain part of the equipment and accessories of the Carl Gustafs Stads Gevärsfaktori factory was idle. Perhaps he would soon be disposed of as unnecessary, but then there was an opportunity to get rid of unnecessary materiel with maximum benefit.

In the early fifties, the Egyptian military began negotiations with the company "Karl Gustav". The purpose of the negotiation process was the signing of a number of mutually beneficial contracts. Egypt wanted to acquire a license for the production of certain types of small arms, to obtain the necessary documentation, and also to buy a part of equipment and accessories for production. Such a proposal suited the Swedish side, and soon technical documentation on several samples of small arms, including an Ag m / 42B rifle, went to the Middle East.

Hakim semi-automatic rifle (Egypt)
Muzzle brake compensator. Photo by Smallarmsreview.com


Having received the necessary documents, Egyptian experts began to prepare the serial production. In doing so, they needed to make some changes to the original project. Rifles Automatgevär m / 42M, in general, arranged the military, but did not fully meet the existing requirements. First of all, it was necessary to remake the weapon under the standard ammunition of the Egyptian army - cartridge 7,92x57 mm "Mauser". In addition, some other improvements were proposed that affected production technologies, performance characteristics and the ergonomics of the finished sample.

Redesigned Swedish rifle was adopted by the Egyptian army under the name "Hakim" - from the Arab "Judge". However, we could talk about the use of a popular Arab male name. It is curious that such ambiguity was present in the name of the carbine, later created on the basis of this rifle. His designation "Rashid" could be perceived as a toponym, and as a human name.

The Hakim rifle was a self-loading weapon of traditional gas-engine layout using store ammunition. In this case, the design of the Egyptian rifle, as well as in the case of its Swedish prototype, used some original ideas. In particular, the gas engine and magazine designs, which were not typical for that time, were used.


Gas regulator. Photo of Gunsmagazine.com


Egyptian engineers reworked weapons got a rifled barrel caliber 7,92 mm long 622 mm (78,5 caliber). A muzzle brake compensator and a fly mount assembly were mounted on the barrel. In the middle of the trunk there was a block for connecting with a gas tube, equipped with a regulator.

All the main parts of the weapon were assembled into a single system using a receiver of the corresponding design. The box was a small-height unit that contained a store receiver and a trigger mechanism. At the same time, the main units of automation were actually located outside the receiver. Thus, the bolt group and its housing were fixed movably on the guides of the flat upper part of the box. Before such guides there was a large protruding block with fixtures for the barrel and gas tube. Behind there was another protruding support, on which the fuse was attached.

E. Eklund developed an automation based on a gas engine with a direct supply of powder gases to the slide frame. The use of a separate gas piston, having a connection with the bolt group, was not envisaged. The gas pipe was fixed above the barrel and reached the receiver. The rear end of the gas tube was fixed on the front receiver unit, and the front end of the slide frame rested against it, which had a small recess.


Shutter, right side view. Photo by Smallarmsreview.com


Egyptian engineers refined this design in accordance with the expected operating conditions. So, now the unit connecting the tube with the barrel, equipped with a gas regulator. The small control knob of the latter emerged through the hole in the wooden lining of the trunk and had eight positions. The first blocked the discharge of gases, turning the rifle into a system with manual reloading. Seven others determined the pressure in the gas tube. Rifles had to be operated in areas with a lot of sand and dust. The gas regulator made it possible to reduce the negative impact of pollutants on the operation of mechanisms.

Ag m / 42 and Hakim rifles had a similar design of the bolt and its movable casing. The bolt carrier was a metal block of complex polygonal section, in which there was a rectangular lower and triangular upper elements. Inside the frame there was a large cavity, designed to install a number of parts. In the upper part of the frame was placed return spring with a guide rod. Lower shutter placed. Locking was done by swinging the shutter in a vertical plane. The front part of the bolt remained in place, while the rear rose or fell, interacting with the combat support of the receiver. Inside the gate placed drummer, which consisted of two parts. The front, which had a hammer, was equipped with its own spring. The rear rod served as a pusher, transmitting impulse from the trigger.


Left view. Photo by Smallarmsreview.com


Behind the shutter (with the mechanisms in a neutral position) there was a movable casing. By its form, it repeated the contours of the bolt, however, it differed slightly larger. There was a guide on the front of the casing for mounting the clips with cartridges. In the Swedish project, the casing was equipped with a traditional-style cocking handle. Egyptian military and engineers replaced it with a U-shaped brace placed on the starboard. In the back of the casing there were means for coupling this unit with the shutter in the rear position. They were used as a kind of fuse.

Under the casing, inside the receiver, there was a trigger-type firing mechanism. The trigger was cocked when the bolt was moved backward, which pressed it into the receiver. The shot was carried out by a traditional trigger, covered with a protective bracket. As part of the trigger was missing its own fuse. To prevent accidental firing, a different system connected with the bolt group was used.

Behind the movable casing, on the dismountable raised support of the receiver, there was a lever swinging to the right and left. Being rotated to the right, the lever made it possible to block the bolt carrier in the rearmost position, inside the casing. The left lever translation ensured proper operation of the mechanisms, resulting in reloading and firing.


The front part of the bolt, visible gas "piston" and the cup. Photo of Gunsmagazine.com


The Hakim rifle was completed with a detachable box magazine on 10 cartridges with a spring-loaded feeder. The store was placed in the window of the receiver and was fixed with a latch. The latter differed in rather complicated construction and rigidity. Such a latch prevented accidental loss of the store. An interesting feature of the Egyptian project was the fact that the store had to be removed only when servicing weapons. It was proposed to equip it with standard clips through the upper window.

Weapon replaced open sight. In the basic design, a movable vertical rear sight was used, adjusted in range by means of a side drum. In the Egyptian project, a more familiar pillar was used on a swinging plate base. The sight was designed for shooting at distances to 800 m. Fly was above the muzzle of the barrel and was raised with the help of relatively high support.

"Hakim" for the Egyptian army retained the traditional accessories for rifles. Used a long box with a butt, which had a pistol protrusion. For most of its length, the trunk was covered with a top pad. Fittings and mechanisms of the rifle were connected with screws, pins and clamps.


The sight of the "traditional" type, replaced the original product. Photo of Gunsmagazine.com


The length of the Khakim self-loading rifle was 1215 mm. Weight without cartridges - 4,7 kg. From the point of view of the main combat characteristics, the Swedish-Egyptian rifle almost did not differ from other models under the XuNXXXNNXX mm Mauser cartridge.

Project E. Eklunda proposed an original way of working weapons, and the rifle for Egypt in this regard has not changed. To prepare the weapon for a shot, it was necessary to move the movable casing of the bolt forward using the side grip bracket. When this occurred, the compression of the return spring with simultaneous coupling of the casing and the bolt carrier. Then it was proposed to move the casing with the bolt back, after which the upper window of the store's receiver would open. With the help of a pair of clips it was possible to equip the store. After that, with the help of the rear lever, the mechanisms were unblocked, and the bolt went forward under the action of the return spring, sending the cartridge into the chamber. At the extreme forward position of the bolt, its shank went down and rested on the combat stop.

Pressing the trigger led to a turn of the trigger and a shot. Powder gases from the barrel fell into the gas tube, reached the front end of the bolt and pushed it back. At the same time, the bolt was unlocked and the frame was rolled back. Moving back, the shutter threw an empty sleeve. After compression of the recoil spring, the slide frame went forward, carrying out the new rounding. The rifle was ready for a new shot. During the self-reloading of weapons, the casing of the bolt remained in the rear position.


The first reloading step: push the casing over the shutter. Photo by Smallarmsreview.com


Equipment for the production of new rifles and documentation for the Ag m / 42B project was transferred to the new Egyptian factory Maadi Factories. In the shortest possible time, the specialists of the enterprise adjusted the necessary equipment and manufactured the first batch of Hakim rifles. Products successfully passed the tests, which allowed to begin full-scale mass production for the re-equipment of the army.

Serial "Hakim" produced in large quantities until the end of the sixties. During this time, the plant "Maadi" put the Egyptian army about 70 thousand self-loading rifles. These weapons were supplied to various parts of the ground forces, where they replaced rifles with manual reloading. New self-loading weapons in a certain way increased the firepower of rifle subunits.

Self-loading rifles "Hakim" appeared in difficult times, and because they quickly had to go to war. This weapon was actively used in a number of Arab-Israeli wars. As far as we know, Swedish rifles showed mixed results. They were much better than older rifles with manual reloading, but noticeably inferior to modern models. However, in the existing conditions, Egyptian soldiers did not have to rely on the best until a certain time.


Next, the casing and the shutter had to be moved back. Photo by Smallarmsreview.com


By the end of the fifties, Egypt had established relations with the Soviet Union, one of the results of which was close cooperation in the military-technical sphere. Soon, the Soviet intermediate cartridge 7,62х39 mm and some weapons were put into service with the Egyptian army. In particular, a number of SKS self-loading carbines were sold to Egypt. Egyptian military had the opportunity to study and compare their weapons with foreign models. According to the results of this comparison, certain conclusions were made.

The command decided that the army also needed a self-loading carbine for an intermediate cartridge. Instead of purchasing a finished sample, it was proposed to create your own weapon with the required characteristics. Soon the Rashid carbine appeared, the basis for which was the Khakim series rifle. For some time, a rifle and a carbine at its base were manufactured and operated in parallel. In this case, the sample under the intermediate cartridge was less numerous.



The insides of the receiver. Photo by Smallarmsreview.com


The operation of the Khakim self-loading rifles continued until the seventies and eighties of the last century. By this time, Egypt managed to adopt several new models of small arms that met the requirements of the time. Thanks to their appearance, the army was able to abandon obsolete rifles and carbines. According to various sources, a small number of Khakimovs still remain in service with the army and police units of Egypt, but the bulk of such weapons have long been written off.

A significant number of decommissioned rifles were disposed of as unnecessary and in connection with the development of the resource. However, a certain number of them avoided this fate, and were sold as civilian weapons. Some of the former army "Khakimov" was abroad. Amateur shooters and collectors show a certain interest in Egyptian weapons.

The Khakim self-loading rifle was adopted by the Egyptian army in the early fifties, approximately 10 years after the appearance of its prototype of the Swedish design. By this time, the original project had in some way become outdated and lose some of its potential. Nevertheless, the purchase of a license even for an aging rifle had a positive effect on the rearmament of the army. With all its drawbacks and limitations, the Hakim rifle has become an important part of the modern history of the Egyptian army.


On the materials of the sites:
http://modernfirearms.net/
http://smallarmsreview.com/
https://militaryfactory.com/
https://gunsmagazine.com/
https://forgottenweapons.com/
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  1. Sasha75
    Sasha75 4 March 2018 06: 24
    +3
    SVT in profile)))).
    1. alex-cn
      alex-cn 4 March 2018 08: 18
      +4
      Only "in profile", automation is very different.
      1. gross kaput
        gross kaput 5 March 2018 21: 01
        0
        Is it so different right? I wonder what? Just by the fact that the Swedes threw out the gas piston and began to blow the gases “straight out”? The design of the locking unit, the receiver and the trigger are created on the basis of the CBT nodes.
        PS automation in both cases, venting, locking by tilting the shutter down.
    2. Kibb
      Kibb 4 March 2018 12: 51
      0
      There, direct exhaust of gases into the box - absolutely do not care how it looks externally. AF in profile Mauser 13/15
  2. polpot
    polpot 4 March 2018 09: 36
    +1
    Probably, the Arab soldiers from the peasants were "happy" with this "masterpiece" of Scandinavian thought, we have very good SVT cursed as best they could and this product is not better.
    1. prodi
      prodi 4 March 2018 10: 32
      +1
      judging by the gas outlet regulator for 8 positions - exactly
      1. Grid
        Grid 4 March 2018 10: 39
        +2
        judging by the gas outlet regulator for 8 positions - exactly

        It's all garbage, but when you get powder gases with a temperature of about 2000 degrees in your face, then you’ll start to swear, at least in Russian, at least in Swedish, at least in ancient Egyptian ...
        1. prodi
          prodi 4 March 2018 12: 31
          0
          you exaggerate, by the time the shutter opens and there is noticeable discomfort, they will already be severely slowed down and cooled down
    2. Grid
      Grid 4 March 2018 10: 40
      0
      and this product is no better.

      Worse.
      1. Kibb
        Kibb 4 March 2018 13: 14
        0
        In fact, the Hakim is far from a fountain - a cerimonial rifle and nothing more.
    3. moskowit
      moskowit 4 March 2018 11: 43
      +4
      we have a very good SVT cursed as they could

      Unfortunately, this is true. A very decent SVT required careful maintenance, for which the shooter needed to have a small set of technical knowledge ... It is known that SVT was very popular in the marines, which were formed from navy crews. The fleet was equipped with conscripts with a higher degree of education than the rifle units of the Red Army.
      1. moskowit
        moskowit 4 March 2018 12: 38
        0
        And to my great regret, popular authors of fiction, hardly possessing the skills of small arms and handling various types of small arms, "had a hand" in discrediting and creating a negative image of this very good rifle .... This is what the famous poet Alexander Zhigulin wrote. .. The poem may be unfamiliar to the general reader, but many of them know lines from it “What works in parades ....”
        Rifle SVT
        Once upon her in parades
        Until the war broke out
        The newest, ten-shot,
        So the whole country admired!
        Oh, a series of bayonets, shiny, flat!
        From childhood, he is also remembered to me.
        And a sonorous step against the walls of the Kremlin,
        And the first marshal on horseback ...
        But the difficult experience of the bitter truth
        Doubled over the years:
        What suits parades
        Not everything is good in war.
        And in the terrible hour of a military cold
        At the firing line
        That unsuccessful weapon
        Replaced reliable PPSh ...
        But for some reason it's not easy
        It became so strange in my soul
        When a heavy long skeleton
        I found in the old dugout.
        I'm this barrel steel and rusty
        I could not calmly get around:
        It is our pain
        And our glory
        And a milestone in our journey.
        1. Kibb
          Kibb 4 March 2018 14: 56
          +2
          Would you know what PPSh release 41 - 42 years. An army rifle is far from civilian; SVT has more than a lot of problems for an army rifle!
      2. wer2
        wer2 4 March 2018 15: 50
        +1
        Quote: moskowit
        It is known that SVT was very popular in the Marine Corps

        These are runet tales.
        Quote: moskowit
        The fleet was equipped with conscripts with a higher degree of education than the rifle units of the Red Army.

        And these are runet tales.

        In addition, the education of the user SVT-40 did not matter. Everyone wants to live approximately the same. Therefore, the regulator was almost always set to the maximum position. After that, the SVT-40 worked properly, but not for long. Because the shutter, under its own power, shattered the receiver at an accelerated pace. And moving forward, no less shocking pace, chamber.
        But in the hands of private users, hunters, for example, SVT-40 can serve much longer. Because they have the opportunity and desire use the gas regulator as intended.
        1. belost79
          belost79 6 March 2018 14: 53
          +1
          I add, the stories that hunters respect SVT - the same myth. I thought to myself to take the first rifled barrel like this, read the forums - there is one verdict, it is not suitable for hunting at all. Only as a souvenir the shooting people takes, and even then they raised the price tag, is not in demand at all. In Soviet times, yes, respected. For the same reason why they loved domestic cars - there are no alternatives.
  3. moskowit
    moskowit 4 March 2018 11: 33
    +2
    In the reference book of AB Zhuk this rifle goes under the designation "Madsen-Lüngman" in the Danish Armed Forces, and when delivered to the United Arab Republic, "as a slightly modified Danish system ...".
  4. Catfish
    Catfish 4 March 2018 12: 42
    +5
    SVT was respected not only by our marines, but also by our Germans, our eternal enemies. Of the abundant trophies of the outbreak of war, they armed their snipers, the benefit of trophy cartridges was also enough. I read the recollections of a sniper from the Leibstandart SS about the battle on the Kursk Bulge. He just fought with our rifle. He praised Russian weapons very much and he had no problems with them. And then say - with the culture of handling weapons, the Nemaks were better than our peasant with three classes of Central Statistical School. hi
    Yes, by the way, a long time ago in some old magazine I saw a photograph of Egyptian soldiers in full uniform and with Stg. 44, with the whole company.
    1. wer2
      wer2 4 March 2018 16: 01
      +3
      Quote: Sea Cat
      SVT was respected not only by our marines, but also by our Germans, our eternal enemies.

      Did they tell you about this themselves? Can you give a thank you note?
      Quote: Sea Cat
      they armed their snipers

      This is some new innovation fantasy Runet. For some reason, they did not write about snipers before.
      Well, if only because the SVT-40 was of little use for sniper service because of its weak battle. And in the Red Army it was used mainly by female snipers, the return was weaker.
      Quote: Sea Cat
      I read the recollections of a sniper from the Leibstandart SS about the battle on the Kursk Bulge. He just fought with our rifle. He praised Russian weapons very much and he had no problems with them.

      Who knows, maybe there was some one, stupid. Rather, illiterate. Or maybe Mauser wasn’t enough for him - the Germans had serious problems with weapons.
      But a sniper, this is not an infantryman. He has a different service. Therefore judge the qualities infantry he simply cannot rifle. Not competent.
      Quote: Sea Cat
      And then say - with the culture of handling weapons, the Nemaks were better than our peasant with three classes of Central Statistical School.

      TSSH ended in 1917. In the Red Army during WWII, the bulk of the soldiers were with the Soviet seven-year plan. And older and uneducated soldiers served mainly in the service staff. Chefs, grooms, cobblers, orderlies in hospitals, etc.
      1. K.A.S.
        K.A.S. 4 March 2018 18: 19
        +2
        Judging by the fact that you have few advantages, it is probably disgusting to many to read your comment, there is no patriotism - our weapons are the best,
        put a plus for the argument!
        1. wer2
          wer2 4 March 2018 18: 48
          0
          Quote: K.A.S.
          probably disgusting to many to read your comment

          I absolutely do not care. If someone does not like the truth, this is his problem.
          Quote: K.A.S.
          no patriotism - our weapons are the best,

          Patriotism is not to call any domestic g ... candy.

          Alaverdi.
      2. Huumi
        Huumi 5 March 2018 00: 23
        0
        Bullshit, the vast majority of soldiers were illiterate, read the same site I remember, there is a lot about education written, questions are asked, 3-4 grades. Seven-year-olds were fish out and sent to courses. There were few educated people. By the way, and about SVT, no one loved her — just sand, earth or dirt — everything, she refused. They threw it at FIG because at the most crucial moment she could jam, especially in the offensive or about crossing rivers it was noticeable. Nobody ran with her. They handed over to her foreman and took carabiners. Although they used to say only 5, but everything will shoot. However, like PPSh, they also handed over for a shish until it failed. . Especially who are older soldiers. And took a carbine.
        1. wer2
          wer2 5 March 2018 01: 30
          +1
          Quote: Huumi
          read the same site I remember, there is a lot about written education, questions are asked-3-4 classes

          And you can read the ads on the fences. They also have a lot of supposedly useful information.
          In the 1940/41 academic year, 34 thousand people studied in USSR schools. Of them:
          In the initial - 10 060 thousand.
          In the seven-year - 12 525 thousand.
          In the average - 12 199 thousand.
          In total, almost 25 million people studied at seven-year and 10-year-olds. Let 12 million of them were men. In total, in 1941, 17 million people were mobilized into the army. Including people with higher education. This number included women of certain specialties. Despite this, the percentage of people without a seven-year education in the Red Army in 1941 was considerable. Not overwhelming, but also considerable.
          But in 1941, the Red Army suffered tremendous losses. Including and among military personnel with primary education. And starting in 1942, only conscripts from among those over 18 years old were drafted into the army. They have almost all studied at least seven years old. And a small number of those who had their reservation withdrawn were also called upon. But these, too, were far from ignoramuses.
          Those. talking about the Red Army, as a bunch of ignoramus, at least wrong.
          1. Huumi
            Huumi 5 March 2018 14: 22
            0
            Yes, yes, I know the statistics, in fact, there Mao who knew how to write))) And reading to not many more than 2-3 classes was already considered cool, and they considered almost seven to finish the seven-year-old duck of such a fighter! The people then were massively illiterate or almost illiterate. The standard question for a veteran is how many classes have finished ..
            1. wer2
              wer2 5 March 2018 14: 53
              0
              Quote: Huumi
              and to end the seven-year-old duck such a fighter was considered almost a Scientist!

              Those. tens of millions of fellow citizens who studied in high school and seven-year plan is not an argument for you. Clear.
              1. Huumi
                Huumi 5 March 2018 15: 21
                0
                Yes, on the drum, there was little organization for me — there were fewer educated people in the army — 80 percent, and even more than all the soldiers from the villages! —From where there are 7 summer schools — 3-4 grades and in a purely professional profession — there was once an overwhelming majority it’s 3-4 grades or even less. With education, it’s either tankers or aviation or factories. LITTLE WERE LITERATED IN SOLDIERS TO THE PEOPLE !!!!
                1. wer2
                  wer2 5 March 2018 15: 42
                  0
                  Quote: Huumi
                  where there are 7 summer schools-3-4 classes and in the craft purely prof.

                  Apparently, it will be a secret for you that the Federal Labor Law gave seven-year general education. Not for free, the Bolsheviks generally paid. For this, Federal Law Students at their training base were to give a production plan. They had to practice training, in short. And they were also considered "mobilized." For escaping from the FSO, a penalty was imposed up to prison. Hello to the best friend of Soviet children.
                  Quote: Huumi
                  With education all or to tankers or to aviation or to factories. LITTLE WAS LITERATED IN SOLDIERS TO THE PEOPLE !!!!

                  Or immediately to the astronauts. I look, you are much to fiction.
    2. Knizhnik
      Knizhnik 5 March 2018 09: 27
      0
      The hellish Photoshop about Svetlanalaughing







      Intrigues of Abwehr request (If something goes wrong, sorry)
  5. pytar
    pytar 4 March 2018 12: 56
    +2
    Thanks to the author for an interesting article! good
  6. wer2
    wer2 4 March 2018 15: 19
    0
    Quote: Ryabov Kirill
    In the middle of the barrel there was a unit for connecting to a gas pipe, equipped with a regulator.

    Rubbish rifle. Something like SVT-40. For the army is not good.
    And in the Swedish version on the cartridge 6,5 × 55 mm, just rubbish.
    Quote: Ryabov Kirill
    By the end of the fifties, Egypt had established relations with the Soviet Union, one of the results of which was close cooperation in the military-technical sphere. Soon, the Soviet intermediate cartridge 7,62x39 mm and some samples of weapons for it entered the Egyptian army. In particular, a number of SKS self-loading carbines were sold to Egypt. The Egyptian military got the opportunity to study and compare their weapons with foreign models.

    Apparently received a gift. Because in their right mind and solid memory nobody would buy SCS.
    Quote: Ryabov Kirill
    The command decided that the army also needed a self-loading carbine with an intermediate cartridge.

    It is not clear why. Or the level of education of the Egyptian military was not very. Or the cartridges were free.
  7. Curious
    Curious 4 March 2018 16: 03
    +3
    Site sofa armourers did not appreciate the sample.
    But for people who are seriously interested in the history of small arms, Sweden is of undoubted interest. Until about the sixties of the last century, Sweden had its own highly developed and distinctive design school and production of small arms. Now, apart from grenade launchers, no weapons of their own are produced - but the licensed Swedes are remade for themselves and remodeled well.
    And the samples of small arms created in Sweden in technical terms are of undoubted interest.
    1. hohol95
      hohol95 4 March 2018 22: 11
      +1
      Again "CREWING ... FOREST WINDS." Suitable for the army, not suitable for the army ...
      The buyer was satisfied - AND THE POINT!
  8. myobius59
    myobius59 4 March 2018 20: 38
    +1
    Quote: wer2
    Quote: Sea Cat
    SVT was respected not only by our marines, but also by our Germans, our eternal enemies.

    Did they tell you about this themselves? Can you give a thank you note?
    Quote: Sea Cat
    they armed their snipers

    This is some new innovation fantasy Runet. For some reason, they did not write about snipers before.
    Well, if only because the SVT-40 was of little use for sniper service because of its weak battle. And in the Red Army it was used mainly by female snipers, the return was weaker.
    Quote: Sea Cat
    I read the recollections of a sniper from the Leibstandart SS about the battle on the Kursk Bulge. He just fought with our rifle. He praised Russian weapons very much and he had no problems with them.

    Who knows, maybe there was some one, stupid. Rather, illiterate. Or maybe Mauser wasn’t enough for him - the Germans had serious problems with weapons.
    But a sniper, this is not an infantryman. He has a different service. Therefore judge the qualities infantry he simply cannot rifle. Not competent.
    Quote: Sea Cat
    And then say - with the culture of handling weapons, the Nemaks were better than our peasant with three classes of Central Statistical School.

    TSSH ended in 1917. In the Red Army during WWII, the bulk of the soldiers were with the Soviet seven-year plan. And older and uneducated soldiers served mainly in the service staff. Chefs, grooms, cobblers, orderlies in hospitals, etc.

    Do not smack WRONG., But type "SVT" at the Wehrmacht, and there you will see pictures of Germans from SVT. And this is ONLY WHICH is PHOTOGRAPHED.
    A very good rifle for its time. Then no one had anything better.
    And we still have many hunters with it in armament. Especially among huntsmen and hunting experts.
    1. wer2
      wer2 5 March 2018 01: 41
      0
      Quote: myobius59
      and type “SVT” at the Wehrmacht’s service, and there you will see pictures of Germans from SVT.

      If you wish, I’ll find their pictures with 19 rifles. But this does not mean that this weapon was good. This suggests that the Germans had a problem with the amount of weapons. That's all.
      Quote: myobius59
      And this is ONLY WHICH is PHOTOGRAPHED.

      No, well, if photographed, then of course. Then there is no bazaar.
      Quote: myobius59
      A very good rifle for its time. Then no one had anything better.

      That's delirious delirium. Apparently, therefore, the Red Army in the course of the war smoothly returned from a "good SVT" to a "bad trilinear."
      Quote: myobius59
      And we still have many hunters with it in armament. Especially among huntsmen and hunting experts.

      Damn, well, the subject does not understand how a soldier (and not just a soldier, but an infantry soldier) differs from a hunter or huntsman. How can I help him?
      1. gross kaput
        gross kaput 5 March 2018 22: 22
        +1
        Listen, the historian homegrown SVT was produced until the end of 1944, and the three went back into series only because during the evacuation of the Tula plant to Mednogorsk and Podolsky to Zlatoust, and even though Izhevsk did not really master the hope that it would not be possible to make up for the loss of weapons of the initial period therefore, in September, a GKO decree was issued to resume the production of mosquitoes - because they really could be produced in the required quantities.
        As for the assessment of the rifle and couch shit about education and other things - as soon as there is a conversation about three education kelasses and other crap, it’s immediately clear that a person judges an object by the murders and never held it in his hands.
        Now I’ll tell you as the owner of the SVT - the main problem with the reliability of the rifle is the magazine and the quality of the cartridges, the main types of delays - sticking a cartridge into the stump of the barrel - store wine, skipping feed - store wine, non-exhaust or chimney - low cartridge pressure or improperly installed regulator . Problems with the bloating of shells or the wear of combat stops, or the use of ShKAS cartridges - such rifles are periodically found at battlefields with a sleeve with the letter "Sh" firmly stuck in the chamber on the edge.
        Where there was an opportunity to bring the supply from the store to mind, there were enough brains not to shove the cartridges marked ShKAS and to clean the rifle not only when it was completely covered with dirt, they loved the rifle there, and not only ours, and not only the trophy - the Finns were generally planning to produce SVT clones - the first prototypes of the TaPaKo rifle appeared immediately after the winter war and this epic lasted with various VKT L-39 prototype 56/1, etc., right up to the mid-50s, Italians also noticed - captured trophy SVT and piled Pavesi Model 1942, the same Lüngman is the Swedish re-singing of CBT.
        As for the snipers, they liked SVT not for their "weak recoil" but for the opportunity to fire several quick shots, but the snipers did not have problems with cartridges, modifications to the store and servicing the rifle and were sent to how they decided on the margin of the first shot and how to treat it SVT snipers began to make love.
        1. wer2
          wer2 5 March 2018 22: 51
          0
          Quote: gross kaput
          Listen historian homegrown

          It was not without haml. Its nobody needs 5 kopecks here, like here.
          Quote: gross kaput
          Now I will tell you as the owner of the CBT

          And who cares?
          Quote: gross kaput
          they loved the rifle there

          Too bad they just killed them all. And they did not leave their admiration for the rifle.
          Quote: gross kaput
          or incorrectly set regulator

          This pretzel did not understand that there are no gas regulators in an air-conditioned infantry rifle. And if they do, then they switch only the firing of cartridges to firing grenades.
          Quote: gross kaput
          and Italians - they studied trophy SVT on Beretta and piled Pavesi Model 1942, the same Lüngman is the Swedish re-singing of SVT.

          What can I say. American Garand, he, too, went from SVT. And Schmeisser (which is StG). And in general, all rifles, this is plagiarism on SVT. Including Anfield (the cunning British removed the automation) and the three-ruler (the rascal Nagan stole the light in a time machine).
          You’re a big dreamer.
          Quote: gross kaput
          With regards to snipers, they liked SVT not for their "weak recoil" but for the ability to fire several quick shots,

          Male snipers did not use light for their "work". Due to her weak fight. In the three-ruler, he was also rather weak. But stronger than that of Svetka.

          I do not like pathos amateurs. But they periodically run like jackals.
  9. hohol95
    hohol95 4 March 2018 22: 08
    0
    If this rifle suited the Egyptian army - then all the "air shocks" in the comments are a waste of time!
    What the Egyptians themselves wanted - in the end, they got it!
    Sorry no photo of soldiers with this rifle!
  10. Huumi
    Huumi 5 March 2018 00: 15
    0
    Thanks, informative!
  11. Catfish
    Catfish 5 March 2018 01: 25
    +4
    Quote: myobius59
    Quote: wer2
    Quote: Sea Cat
    SVT was respected not only by our marines, but also by our Germans, our eternal enemies.

    Did they tell you about this themselves? Can you give a thank you note?

    Do not smack WRONG., But type "SVT" at the Wehrmacht, and there you will see pictures of Germans from SVT. And this is ONLY WHICH is PHOTOGRAPHED.
    A very good rifle for its time. Then no one had anything better.
    And we still have many hunters with it in armament. Especially among huntsmen and hunting experts.


    Thanks to Myobius for the specific rebuke. I at one time, from 1980 to 1990. worked in the Department of Weapons of the State Historical Museum, so there was simply no escape from couch theorists like Mr. Wer 2. One of them even bit me, proving that MP - 40 was invented by Hugo Schmeisser, thanks to the guard, he repulsed, but he washed off his saliva for a long time.
    PC - A gift to the department from the manufacturer with a gift inscription. In my hands I’m the official Makar of one of our guard sergeants. Both of them are left and right. The M3A1 barrel on the left shows a gift from Cubans to Marshal Sudets for organizing Cuban air defense with a dedicatory inscription. Taken from the battle to Playa Heron. To the right is the banal Lewis. The photo is cropped on both sides so that no faces are visible. In Soviet times, our cops were forbidden to shoot with weapons in their hands. The photo was taken at the Novodevichy Convent, which was a branch of the State Historical Museum, and our department was transferred there from Red Square in the second half of the 80s. Here was life! The young ones were fooling around.
    Speaking of SVT-40, if my memory serves me right, then the Belgian FN FAL is almost completely ripped off our rifle. Upgraded only the appearance. This is the question of the quality of CBT, the Belgians would not copy shit.
    Happily and success. drinks
    1. wer2
      wer2 5 March 2018 02: 00
      0
      Quote: Sea Cat
      I at one time, from 1980 to 1990. worked in the Department of Weapons of the State Historical Museum

      Worked as a janitor there? Or a floor polisher?
      Quote: Sea Cat
      One of them even bit me, proving that MP - 40 was invented by Hugo Schmeisser, thanks to the guard, he repulsed, but he washed off his saliva for a long time.

      Hugo, actually. The name is. German
      But about drooling, this is very impressive. Probably then the floors were torn for a long time? What to do, hard polisher work.
      Quote: Sea Cat
      In my hands I’m the official Makar of one of our guard sergeants.

      This is a very rash act on their part. I hope he is without a clip? You can get hurt.
      Quote: Sea Cat
      Here was life! The young ones were fooling around.

      Yes, and now you are not kidding your comments deTski.
      Quote: Sea Cat
      Speaking of SVT-40, if my memory serves me right, then the Belgian FN FAL is almost completely ripped off our rifle.

      She's cheating on you. Well, if only because the FN is an infantry rifle, and the SVT-40, no. As for the gas mechanism, this mechanism was still used in the self-loading of Mondragon arr. 1887. Therefore, SVT has no priority in this area. And the SVT mechanism itself is most likely lapped precisely from the mechanism of the Mondragon rifle, it was delivered to Europe and Russia during the 1st MV. Already painfully similar. But at FN it is structurally different. There is more in common with Garand.
      You, a person of a working specialty, did not need to know such details. But since we are talking about this, there will be a small educational program for you.
      Yes, and one more thing. Do not read Wik on FN FAL. I highly recommend you.
      Quote: Sea Cat
      This is the question of the quality of CBT, the Belgians would not copy shit.

      Of course. Therefore, they did not copy SVT. There was nothing to copy there. And there were no innovations there.
      If you decide to convict them of plagiarism, then try to connect the FN with the Garand rifle. There are more similarities. Although there are many differences.

      Well, but seriously, the USSR is widely known in narrow circles for the fact that FOR THE WHOLE HISTORY OF ITS EXISTENCE, its "ingenious designers" were never able to make a self-loading infantry rifle. Failed. And in service with the Red Army / SA it was not.
      Therefore, the coolest achievement in this field is the Tsar’s still time store rifle made by the Belgian Nagan and later remade by Mosin, on the recommendation of the Commission, under a wound cartridge and Russian production conditions. Those. Initially, a foreigner also made a store for Russia.
      Well, during the Berdan rifle in the arsenal of the Russian army, I will not climb.
      The result?
      And in the end, zero. With machine guns and pistols to be photographed, this is one thing. And to do something sensible is another.
      1. Grid
        Grid 5 March 2018 15: 10
        +2
        Probably then the floors were torn for a long time?

        Well, you never wiped ... And at the same time confused Luis Schmeiser and his son - Hugo.
        Yes, and one more thing. Do not read Wik on FN FAL. I highly recommend you.

        Why read? It is enough to disassemble once ... CBT and FN FAL. You obviously didn’t make out ...
        Well, but seriously, the USSR is widely known in narrow circles for the fact that FOR THE WHOLE HISTORY OF ITS EXISTENCE, its "ingenious designers" were never able to make a self-loading infantry rifle. Failed. And in service with the Red Army / SA it was not.

        But this is already beyond good and evil ... Uncle, and explain to me that there is an INFANTRESS rifle.
        Or, baby, do you belong to the stealth pihotam? Well so it is obviously not to me ...
        Therefore, the coolest achievement in this field is the Tsar’s still time store rifle made by the Belgian Nagan and later remade by Mosin, on the recommendation of the Commission, under a wound cartridge and Russian production conditions. Those. originally a foreigner made a shop for Russia

        Idiocy can not be treated ... Baby, insanity is guaranteed to you ...
        And in the end, zero. With machine guns and pistols to be photographed, this is one thing. And to do something sensible is another.

        You will see zero in the mirror.
        1. wer2
          wer2 5 March 2018 15: 52
          0
          Quote: Grille
          And at the same time they confused Luis Schmeiser and his son - Hugo

          I don’t think if the opponent writes "Hugo Schmeiser, then he means “Louis Schmeiser”
          Quote: Grille
          It is enough to disassemble once ... CBT and FN FAL. You obviously didn’t make out ...

          Respected. FN FAL does not have a gas regulator to adjust the firing of cartridges. He stands there to switch the firing from cartridges to grenades and back. And SVT has, and even what hemorrhoids.
          All. Dot. There is nothing to discuss further. At least you take them apart to calluses, this occupation is empty.
          Quote: Grille
          and explain to me that there is an infantry rifle.

          God will give.
          Quote: Grille
          Idiocy is not treated ...

          Yes, you are apparently hopeless.

          So I do not understand. A miracle rode up, something silly was written, but why? What is the habit of running into a puddle? Do you like water circles?
    2. Huumi
      Huumi 5 March 2018 14: 34
      +1
      They didn’t like her in the troops. Even during the winter campaign in Karelia, by the way, we find them without shutters — when they threw out this trash they removed the shutters and threw them separately so that the Finns would not get it. While it works, everything is fine. And when not everything is getting very bad. And one of the soldiers and the younger ones didn’t ask how the SVT answered everything — it was unreliable. She could have failed because they were handed over and taken by Mosin. As they said, let’s not have an assault rifle, but all 5 rounds are mine. and do not lick well, she refused to function normally! Only one! a veteran told how to deal with failures, According to him! I first applied the grease, after thoroughly cleaning it from soot, etc. After that, when everything sparkled and sparkled like cat's eggs I got alcohol! rubbed with a rag to the crunch already metal! removing grease completely!. Here then on it! According to her, she worked more or less. In the conditions of intense combat, when she flew both sand and earth, she refused instantly, much less when she fell, ran over, ran and fell. All this from the veteran’s questionnaire and it was possible to clean it and grooming as much as desired - no one wanted to stay with stuck weapons at the most inopportune moment.
  12. Catfish
    Catfish 5 March 2018 05: 00
    +3
    Quote: wer2
    Quote: Sea Cat
    I at one time, from 1980 to 1990. worked in the Department of Weapons of the State Historical Museum

    Worked as a janitor there? Or a floor polisher?
    Quote: Sea Cat
    One of them even bit me, proving that MP - 40 was invented by Hugo Schmeisser, thanks to the guard, he repulsed, but he washed off his saliva for a long time.

    Hugo, actually. The name is. German
    But about drooling, this is very impressive. Probably then the floors were torn for a long time? What to do, hard polisher work.
    Quote: Sea Cat
    In my hands I’m the official Makar of one of our guard sergeants.

    This is a very rash act on their part. I hope he is without a clip? You can get hurt.
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Here was life! The young ones were fooling around.

    Yes, and now you are not kidding your comments deTski.
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Speaking of SVT-40, if my memory serves me right, then the Belgian FN FAL is almost completely ripped off our rifle.

    She's cheating on you. Well, if only because the FN is an infantry rifle, and the SVT-40, no. As for the gas mechanism, this mechanism was still used in the self-loading of Mondragon arr. 1887. Therefore, SVT has no priority in this area. And the SVT mechanism itself is most likely lapped precisely from the mechanism of the Mondragon rifle, it was delivered to Europe and Russia during the 1st MV. Already painfully similar. But at FN it is structurally different. There is more in common with Garand.
    You, a person of a working specialty, did not need to know such details. But since we are talking about this, there will be a small educational program for you.
    Yes, and one more thing. Do not read Wik on FN FAL. I highly recommend you.
    Quote: Sea Cat
    This is the question of the quality of CBT, the Belgians would not copy shit.

    Of course. Therefore, they did not copy SVT. There was nothing to copy there. And there were no innovations there.
    If you decide to convict them of plagiarism, then try to connect the FN with the Garand rifle. There are more similarities. Although there are many differences.

    Well, but seriously, the USSR is widely known in narrow circles for the fact that FOR THE WHOLE HISTORY OF ITS EXISTENCE, its "ingenious designers" were never able to make a self-loading infantry rifle. Failed. And in service with the Red Army / SA it was not.
    Therefore, the coolest achievement in this field is the Tsar’s still time store rifle made by the Belgian Nagan and later remade by Mosin, on the recommendation of the Commission, under a wound cartridge and Russian production conditions. Those. Initially, a foreigner also made a store for Russia.
    Well, during the Berdan rifle in the arsenal of the Russian army, I will not climb.
    The result?
    And in the end, zero. With machine guns and pistols to be photographed, this is one thing. And to do something sensible is another.


    Oyoyoy! The boy was offended. Well, sorry dear. Rudeness you will not surprise anyone. And as for everything else, then you would hardly have been taken there as a polisher. Take care of your nerves, young man laughing .
    1. wer2
      wer2 5 March 2018 14: 58
      0
      Quote: Sea Cat
      Oyoyoy! The boy was offended.

      Well you, boy, do not be offended.
      Quote: Sea Cat
      you and polisher would hardly have been taken there

      Yes, I have a different qualification. For the floor polisher will be too much.
    2. gross kaput
      gross kaput 5 March 2018 22: 27
      +1
      Another phenomenon of an eccentric with a lot of nicknames and complete porridge in the head? Sounds like yes.
  13. Kibb
    Kibb 5 March 2018 09: 34
    +1
    Quote: wer2
    stories of runet.

    Well, bikes or not bikes, but they fought with her.
    Quote: wer2
    Everyone wants to live approximately the same. Therefore, the regulator was almost always set to the maximum position

    This is very similar to the truth, of course, a modern hunter or just a CBT user (like me) will set the regulator as it should, and lubricate it as it should, but in the infantry they won’t bother. On the other hand, the marines are generally not ordinary infantry - they had to shoot less often, all the same, the closer to the 45th the less they tried to plug holes. We could, in principle, use them as well. Although the gas regulator on an army rifle is natural, this is not good
    1. wer2
      wer2 5 March 2018 15: 01
      0
      Quote: Kibb
      Well, bikes or not bikes, but they fought with her.

      For a while. Not very long.
      Quote: Kibb
      Although naturally a gas regulator on an army rifle, this is not good

      This is one of the signs that this is not an infantry rifle. There are no infantry rifles with a gas regulator. Yes, and so hemorrhoids, as in SVT. A hunting rifle? You are welcome.
      Sports rifle? You are welcome. But not an infantry.
  14. Kibb
    Kibb 5 March 2018 11: 03
    +1
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Speaking of SVT-40, if my memory serves me right, then the Belgian FN FAL is almost completely ripped off our rifle. Upgraded only the appearance. This is the question of the quality of CBT, the Belgians would not copy shit.

    Now this is already a real bike, about the level of MP40 - Schmeiser (only that they swore at it, but did not go very far). Locking and gas venting as in SVT was not invented by Tokarev, nor by FNovtsy
  15. Kibb
    Kibb 5 March 2018 11: 13
    +1
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Quote: wer2
    Quote: Sea Cat
    I at one time, from 1980 to 1990. worked in the Department of Weapons of the State Historical Museum

    Worked as a janitor there? Or a floor polisher?
    Quote: Sea Cat
    One of them even bit me, proving that MP - 40 was invented by Hugo Schmeisser, thanks to the guard, he repulsed, but he washed off his saliva for a long time.

    Hugo, actually. The name is. German
    But about drooling, this is very impressive. Probably then the floors were torn for a long time? What to do, hard polisher work.
    Quote: Sea Cat
    In my hands I’m the official Makar of one of our guard sergeants.

    This is a very rash act on their part. I hope he is without a clip? You can get hurt.
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Here was life! The young ones were fooling around.

    Yes, and now you are not kidding your comments deTski.
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Speaking of SVT-40, if my memory serves me right, then the Belgian FN FAL is almost completely ripped off our rifle.

    She's cheating on you. Well, if only because the FN is an infantry rifle, and the SVT-40, no. As for the gas mechanism, this mechanism was still used in the self-loading of Mondragon arr. 1887. Therefore, SVT has no priority in this area. And the SVT mechanism itself is most likely lapped precisely from the mechanism of the Mondragon rifle, it was delivered to Europe and Russia during the 1st MV. Already painfully similar. But at FN it is structurally different. There is more in common with Garand.
    You, a person of a working specialty, did not need to know such details. But since we are talking about this, there will be a small educational program for you.
    Yes, and one more thing. Do not read Wik on FN FAL. I highly recommend you.
    Quote: Sea Cat
    This is the question of the quality of CBT, the Belgians would not copy shit.

    Of course. Therefore, they did not copy SVT. There was nothing to copy there. And there were no innovations there.
    If you decide to convict them of plagiarism, then try to connect the FN with the Garand rifle. There are more similarities. Although there are many differences.

    Well, but seriously, the USSR is widely known in narrow circles for the fact that FOR THE WHOLE HISTORY OF ITS EXISTENCE, its "ingenious designers" were never able to make a self-loading infantry rifle. Failed. And in service with the Red Army / SA it was not.
    Therefore, the coolest achievement in this field is the Tsar’s still time store rifle made by the Belgian Nagan and later remade by Mosin, on the recommendation of the Commission, under a wound cartridge and Russian production conditions. Those. Initially, a foreigner also made a store for Russia.
    Well, during the Berdan rifle in the arsenal of the Russian army, I will not climb.
    The result?
    And in the end, zero. With machine guns and pistols to be photographed, this is one thing. And to do something sensible is another.


    Oyoyoy! The boy was offended. Well, sorry dear. Rudeness you will not surprise anyone. And as for everything else, then you would hardly have been taken there as a polisher. Take care of your nerves, young man laughing .

    Do not be offended, he is sharp. But SVT is really nothing new. If that, then I have nothing wrong with the Russian and Soviet weapons designers, but you are really wrong - all the solutions were applied.
    1. Grid
      Grid 5 March 2018 14: 56
      0
      Do not be offended, he is sharp. But SVT is really nothing new.

      Yah? For 1938 there was a self-loading rifle, chambered with DE 3300 J, more or less working normally?
      And new in SVT is more than enough.
      1. Kibb
        Kibb 5 March 2018 15: 43
        +1
        There were, there were more or less normally working ones. I’m saying that personally I have no complaints against Tokarev, although the TT is my most unloved pistol - there shouldn’t be a gas regulator in an army rifle.
      2. wer2
        wer2 5 March 2018 15: 55
        0
        Quote: Grille
        more or less normally working?

        And that’s all for nothing. Reminds a jamming gramophone.
        Quote: Grille
        And new in SVT is more than enough.

        Gee-gee-gee.
  16. myobius59
    myobius59 5 March 2018 11: 24
    +2
    Quote: wer2
    Quote: Sea Cat
    I at one time, from 1980 to 1990. worked in the Department of Weapons of the State Historical Museum

    Worked as a janitor there? Or a floor polisher?
    Quote: Sea Cat
    One of them even bit me, proving that MP - 40 was invented by Hugo Schmeisser, thanks to the guard, he repulsed, but he washed off his saliva for a long time.

    Hugo, actually. The name is. German
    But about drooling, this is very impressive. Probably then the floors were torn for a long time? What to do, hard polisher work.
    Quote: Sea Cat
    In my hands I’m the official Makar of one of our guard sergeants.

    This is a very rash act on their part. I hope he is without a clip? You can get hurt.
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Here was life! The young ones were fooling around.

    Yes, and now you are not kidding your comments deTski.
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Speaking of SVT-40, if my memory serves me right, then the Belgian FN FAL is almost completely ripped off our rifle.

    She's cheating on you. Well, if only because the FN is an infantry rifle, and the SVT-40, no. As for the gas mechanism, this mechanism was still used in the self-loading of Mondragon arr. 1887. Therefore, SVT has no priority in this area. And the SVT mechanism itself is most likely lapped precisely from the mechanism of the Mondragon rifle, it was delivered to Europe and Russia during the 1st MV. Already painfully similar. But at FN it is structurally different. There is more in common with Garand.
    You, a person of a working specialty, did not need to know such details. But since we are talking about this, there will be a small educational program for you.
    Yes, and one more thing. Do not read Wik on FN FAL. I highly recommend you.
    Quote: Sea Cat
    This is the question of the quality of CBT, the Belgians would not copy shit.

    Of course. Therefore, they did not copy SVT. There was nothing to copy there. And there were no innovations there.
    If you decide to convict them of plagiarism, then try to connect the FN with the Garand rifle. There are more similarities. Although there are many differences.

    Well, but seriously, the USSR is widely known in narrow circles for the fact that FOR THE WHOLE HISTORY OF ITS EXISTENCE, its "ingenious designers" were never able to make a self-loading infantry rifle. Failed. And in service with the Red Army / SA it was not.
    Therefore, the coolest achievement in this field is the Tsar’s still time store rifle made by the Belgian Nagan and later remade by Mosin, on the recommendation of the Commission, under a wound cartridge and Russian production conditions. Those. Initially, a foreigner also made a store for Russia.
    Well, during the Berdan rifle in the arsenal of the Russian army, I will not climb.
    The result?
    And in the end, zero. With machine guns and pistols to be photographed, this is one thing. And to do something sensible is another.

    I don’t even know what to say for all this
    Quote: wer2
    Quote: Sea Cat
    I at one time, from 1980 to 1990. worked in the Department of Weapons of the State Historical Museum

    Worked as a janitor there? Or a floor polisher?
    Quote: Sea Cat
    One of them even bit me, proving that MP - 40 was invented by Hugo Schmeisser, thanks to the guard, he repulsed, but he washed off his saliva for a long time.

    Hugo, actually. The name is. German
    But about drooling, this is very impressive. Probably then the floors were torn for a long time? What to do, hard polisher work.
    Quote: Sea Cat
    In my hands I’m the official Makar of one of our guard sergeants.

    This is a very rash act on their part. I hope he is without a clip? You can get hurt.
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Here was life! The young ones were fooling around.

    Yes, and now you are not kidding your comments deTski.
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Speaking of SVT-40, if my memory serves me right, then the Belgian FN FAL is almost completely ripped off our rifle.

    She's cheating on you. Well, if only because the FN is an infantry rifle, and the SVT-40, no. As for the gas mechanism, this mechanism was still used in the self-loading of Mondragon arr. 1887. Therefore, SVT has no priority in this area. And the SVT mechanism itself is most likely lapped precisely from the mechanism of the Mondragon rifle, it was delivered to Europe and Russia during the 1st MV. Already painfully similar. But at FN it is structurally different. There is more in common with Garand.
    You, a person of a working specialty, did not need to know such details. But since we are talking about this, there will be a small educational program for you.
    Yes, and one more thing. Do not read Wik on FN FAL. I highly recommend you.
    Quote: Sea Cat
    This is the question of the quality of CBT, the Belgians would not copy shit.

    Of course. Therefore, they did not copy SVT. There was nothing to copy there. And there were no innovations there.
    If you decide to convict them of plagiarism, then try to connect the FN with the Garand rifle. There are more similarities. Although there are many differences.

    Well, but seriously, the USSR is widely known in narrow circles for the fact that FOR THE WHOLE HISTORY OF ITS EXISTENCE, its "ingenious designers" were never able to make a self-loading infantry rifle. Failed. And in service with the Red Army / SA it was not.
    Therefore, the coolest achievement in this field is the Tsar’s still time store rifle made by the Belgian Nagan and later remade by Mosin, on the recommendation of the Commission, under a wound cartridge and Russian production conditions. Those. Initially, a foreigner also made a store for Russia.
    Well, during the Berdan rifle in the arsenal of the Russian army, I will not climb.
    The result?
    And in the end, zero. With machine guns and pistols to be photographed, this is one thing. And to do something sensible is another.

    Yes, yes, there was no Fedorov rifle, no SVT, no ABC, no SCS. There was nothing. And if that was, everything was ripped off from the German and Amer weapons.
    I don’t even know what to say to all the NERB that you wrote here. Where these "experts" come from is a mystery to me. Recently, the same one you seriously on one of the sites argued that the BM-13 was placed only on the "Students". And it was not clear to him that in the 41m "Students", like the Chevrolet (which were also installed in the second half of the Great Patriotic War) in 41m no one else in the USSR even saw in the pictures.
    You are probably from the same "specialists", I heard a jingle, but don’t know where he is.
    I don’t know what to advise if a person is completely off topic, but considers himself an “expert”. Probably still need to somehow self-educate. And do not write any crap if you do not understand anything about it. Read smart books, and do not write nonsense.
    1. Kibb
      Kibb 5 March 2018 11: 51
      0
      Nothing was ripped off there, the designers did what they asked of them. In real conditions, there are no complaints against them. As for CBT and FAL:
      1. The solutions that Tokarev premiered were not used in the FAL, but in SAFN49
      2.SAFN49 is similar to FAL as the M1 is similar to the M14 - that is, it is clear that this is a deep modernization, but the rifles are different
      3.FN FAL is truly a legendary army rifle - and it’s a rifle, an automatic rifle from it like from the city of bullet
      4. I did not hold Mondragon, but look at this machine gun. Just a rare case when the appearance and inner content do not deceive you
    2. wer2
      wer2 5 March 2018 15: 25
      0
      Quote: myobius59
      Yes, yes, there was no Fedorov rifle

      In fact, it was not. Because what was, an infantry rifle can only be called with a binge. Even the illiterate Bolsheviks understood this and gave Fedorov’s rifle a kick in the ass.
      Quote: myobius59
      not SCS.

      And SCS is about the same extent. In general, a product of unknown purpose.
      Quote: myobius59
      not CBT, not ABC

      They were of limited legal capacity. And certainly, these weapons were not infantry.
      In the USSR, they generally loved all kinds of "advanced innovations." Throwing money at the same time and amazing the rest of the world. Which was brought up on reasonable deeds.
      Quote: myobius59
      There was nothing

      You have forgotten SVD. But this is not an infantry, but a special weapon.
      Quote: myobius59
      And if that was, everything was ripped off from the German and Amer weapons.

      Why tore off?
      Berdanka (Berdan rifle) was in its original form.
      The three-ruler was a redesigned Nagant rifle.
      I wrote about ABC and CBT above.
      AK was a German product. And as an infantry weapon, he was not fit for the word "completely."
      AK-74, this is a remake of the Kalashnikov German at its core AKM. With approximately the same attitude to the term "infantry weapon" as the AK.
      Full-fledged infantry weapons in this half-liter, where do you see? After the tsar’s three-ruler, where?
      He is not there. So much for the "legendary legacy of the USSR."
      Quote: myobius59
      And do not write any crap if you do not understand anything about it.

      You directly gave yourself golden advice. You should have heard him ...
  17. myobius59
    myobius59 5 March 2018 11: 38
    +1
    Yes, I forgot about the Dragunov rifle, the famous SVD. She also was not and is not. .
    And the surname Fedorov is apparently unknown to you. It turns out he didn’t, back in 1906, the first in the world, designed, and then created his famous rifle. With which they fought already in World War I, and even in the Second World War she took part.
    What can I say .. fool
    1. Kibb
      Kibb 5 March 2018 12: 23
      0
      There is SVD and it is a good rifle, only the niche in the armament of the army is different.
      also known to everyone, but only the first automatic rifle adopted by the army was called Mondragon.
    2. wer2
      wer2 5 March 2018 15: 32
      0
      Quote: myobius59
      I forgot about the Dragunov rifle, the famous SVD. She also was not and is not. .

      About the special (not infantry) SVD wrote above. I will not repeat myself.
      Quote: myobius59
      And the surname Fedorov is apparently unknown to you. It turns out he did not, back in 1906, the first in the world, designed, and then created his famous rifle.

      First you need to learn. The fact that in 1906 Fedorov “created” (on a cartridge with a Mauser sleeve), it did not shoot. Due to the low qualifications of the "creator".
      The "brilliant author" did not know the term "heat sink". And he learned about it only after "creating a brilliant product." Then I had to do no less funny take 2.
      Quote: myobius59
      With which they fought already in World War I, and even in the Second World War, she participated.

      Actually, you write about take 2 (yes, there were 2 models). A small batch of rifles Fedorov ordered the Bolsheviks. But everything was limited to her. Even the Bolsheviks understood that it was the UG.
      And in the war, than they did not fight in the war. Even museum exhibits at times.
      Quote: myobius59
      fool

      Well, hamlo incompetent, what to take from him?
  18. vonWolfenstein
    vonWolfenstein 5 March 2018 11: 56
    0
    We started with the Hakim and moved to the Light. And citizens commenting less would have to ulcerate and not get personal. And then "You worked as a janitor there as a floor polisher and so on. This is for those who think that they would have taken him in the Comedy Club. They won’t give weapons to the polter
    1. myobius59
      myobius59 5 March 2018 12: 10
      +1
      Who told you that they won’t give him a weapon.
      The terrains are just the first to go into battle and die first.
      And you are somewhere back there. Watching.
      1. vonWolfenstein
        vonWolfenstein 5 March 2018 12: 17
        0
        It is important for many to say at least something, otherwise they will fall ill from a lack of attention.
    2. Kibb
      Kibb 5 March 2018 12: 13
      0
      Well, the same appearance is our everything. I still don’t understand how AK looks like STG44 (it’s never been concealed by the concept that it was taken from Schmeiser, but they are completely different even externally), but the topic still lives with FIDO
      1. wer2
        wer2 5 March 2018 15: 35
        0
        Quote: Kibb
        I still don’t understand how AK looks like STG44 (in terms of the concept it never seemed to hide what was taken from Schmeiser, but they are completely different even externally)

        Yes, conceptual succession is evident. It is unclear who claims to be in the design too.
  19. The comment was deleted.
  20. Kibb
    Kibb 5 March 2018 16: 45
    0
    Quote: wer2
    made by the Belgian Nagan and later redone by Mosin, on the recommendation of the Commission, under a wound cartridge and Russian production conditions

    Oh well, the shutters are completely different. Mosinovsky is more like a very deep processing of the Chaspo - Gra - Lebel, but it is a deep processing.
    1. wer2
      wer2 5 March 2018 21: 16
      0
      Quote: Kibb
      Oh well, the shutters are completely different.

      So the cartridges are completely different. Nagan made a rifle under a bezrantovy cartridge. And Mosin redid it under the welt.
      Quote: Kibb
      Lebel,

      It is very similar to Lebel. Very very. I would even suggest that he is.
  21. Catfish
    Catfish 5 March 2018 23: 34
    +1
    Quote: wer2

    The three-ruler was a redesigned Nagant rifle.

    AK was a German product. And as an infantry weapon, he was not fit for the word "completely."
    AK-74, this is a remake of the Kalashnikov German at its core AKM. With approximately the same attitude to the term "infantry weapon" as the AK.
    Full-fledged infantry weapons in this half-liter, where do you see? After the tsar’s three-ruler, where?
    He is not there. So much for the "legendary legacy of the USSR."
    Quote: myobius59
    And do not write any crap if you do not understand anything about it.

    You directly gave yourself golden advice. You should have heard him ...


    By decision of the Technical Committee, on the original Mosin rifle, only the store was replaced by the Nagan rifle store.
    The fact that AK was a "German product" is not even commented on. The fact that he is not "suitable as an infantry weapon" is understandable, if only because he is at war with him half the world.

    And the rest: in your POLL, I, besides you, excuse me, I do not see any weapons. He's not there.

    But they still gave you advice. hi
    1. wer2
      wer2 6 March 2018 14: 01
      0
      Quote: Sea Cat
      By decision of the Technical Committee, on the original Mosin rifle, only the store was replaced by the Nagan rifle store.

      Nonsense. You do not know what a rifle is (a pistol, a machine gun, even a slingshot).
      Quote: Sea Cat
      The fact that AK was a "German product" is not even commented on.

      And what is there to comment? Everything is obvious.
      Quote: Sea Cat
      The fact that he is not "suitable as an infantry weapon" is understandable, if only because he is at war with him half the world.

      They are at war only in those countries in which there are problems with money and there are no problems with fertility. Such you can easily pick up more than half the world.
      Quote: Sea Cat
      in your POLL, I

      There is no typo, there is a joke of humor.
      Quote: Sea Cat
      Sorry, I don’t see any weapons. He's not there.

      Here I do not agree with you. Weapons are there. Some samples can even be used in the army. But it is not infantry.
  22. glum
    glum 6 March 2018 13: 47
    +2
    I read the comments and noticed one feature - a certain comrade, under several nicknames he writes all the time about an infantry rifle - dear, what do you mean by an infantry rifle ???
    1. wer2
      wer2 6 March 2018 13: 57
      +1
      Quote: Glum
      what do you mean infantry rifle

      Not mine, but generally accepted. This is the main weapon of the infantryman. That which in the armies of the USSR / RF never, after the outdated three-ruler, was not. But I hope that in the army of the Russian Federation it will still be.
      1. glum
        glum 6 March 2018 18: 50
        +1
        all the same, I don’t understand what the essence of the infantry rifle is in your understanding, all the armies of the world have switched to assault rifles and assault rifles, abandoning magazine and self-loading rifles. or do you want to return the army to the beginning of the 20th century ???
        1. wer2
          wer2 6 March 2018 19: 44
          0
          Quote: Glum
          all the armies of the world switched to assault rifles and assault rifles

          "Automatic", this is from another area. Speed ​​indicator of automatic weapons.
          And nobody except the USSR and its "friends" - scumbags have ever switched to assault rifles in the world.
          The United States uses the M16 automatic infantry rifle. If you see the message assault rifle M16, immediately close this site and do not read. This is a "journalistic" name. Not official.
          It’s just that the juralists often don’t understand (not experts) that the cartridge is 5,54 x 45 mm, it’s infantry in its technical characteristics. Although formally, in terms of power, intermediate. From this, in terms of their performance characteristics, the M16 is not an assault rifle, but an infantry rifle. Those. full army.
          1. Grid
            Grid 7 March 2018 13: 51
            +1
            Oh, damn it ... I completely forgot what your name was in the previous incarnation, it turns in the language, but I can’t remember ...
            You still raved about the "carbine cartridge".
            1. Kibb
              Kibb 10 March 2018 13: 54
              0
              The Passerby called him, but he quite often says the thing, the current brings him ... he would sleep, which he smokes wink
          2. glum
            glum 7 March 2018 16: 29
            0
            or you somehow not so explain or I didn’t understand something. those. M16 and AK are firearms different in their purpose ???
            1. wer2
              wer2 7 March 2018 17: 01
              0
              Quote: Glum
              those. M16 and AK are firearms different in their purpose ???

              Hurray. That’s how the Britons yell instead of a simple “cheers.”
              M16, as a type of small arms, has nothing to do with either AK or AK-74. But the AK / AK-47 / AKM (these are three slightly different models of the same) with the AK-74 have a bit in common. But just a little.
              I will explain a little:
              M16 (that A1, that A2) is an automatic infantry rifle.
              The AK-74 is an automatic assault rifle.
              AK / AK-47 / AKM is the Head and Sholders. Two in one. Self-loading assault rifle + submachine gun (according to the technical specifications, and not according to the cartridge) in one case.
              Well, if it’s still very interesting, then the M14 is a self-loading infantry rifle with the possibility of automatic fire. But not in SMG mode, like AK / AK-47 / AKM.
              Have you noticed? Americans always have the word "infantry", which is synonymous with the term "full". And the weapons of the USSR, the term "assault", which for the infantry roughly means "surrogate." Or, if in a scientific and diplomatic way, then "official".
        2. Grid
          Grid 7 March 2018 13: 56
          0
          what is the essence of an infantry rifle

          Not infantry, but "infantry" ... :)
  23. Catfish
    Catfish 6 March 2018 23: 35
    +1
    Quote: wer2
    Quote: Sea Cat
    By decision of the Technical Committee, on the original Mosin rifle, only the store was replaced by the Nagan rifle store.

    Nonsense. You do not know what a rifle is (a pistol, a machine gun, even a slingshot).

    What nonsense is that? In the decision of the Technical Committee?
    And about the pistol, machine gun and even the slingshot, I not only held them in my hands, but also know how to use them.
    Did you serve in the army? Or just the pictures? fool
    1. Grid
      Grid 7 March 2018 13: 53
      0
      Well, you do not know by definition. I don’t know, by the way, either. The main thing is that this character is in the know ...
    2. wer2
      wer2 7 March 2018 16: 33
      0
      Quote: Sea Cat
      What nonsense is that?

      The fact that the cartridge has become welt. So the chamber and bolt must be changed. Least. And not just the store.
      Quote: Sea Cat
      Did you serve in the army? Or just the pictures?

      And what does this have to do with weapons? Or do you naively think that the better the shooter, the better he knows about weapons?
      They served in the army. And not one year. But this has nothing to do with understanding weapons systems and weapons. Almost no.
    3. wer2
      wer2 7 March 2018 17: 23
      0
      Quote: Sea Cat
      fool

      Just noticed.
      If you will be rude, I will stop doing your educational program. And you won’t get better from this.
  24. Catfish
    Catfish 7 March 2018 22: 44
    +1
    Quote: wer2
    Quote: Sea Cat
    fool

    Just noticed.
    If you will be rude, I will stop doing your educational program. And you won’t get better from this.


    Are you talking about rudeness, dear? By the way, nobody asked you to engage in educational program. As for the rest, it’s good for me, don’t bother yourself. tongue
  25. kvs207
    kvs207 9 March 2018 11: 17
    0
    Quote: wer2
    Americans always have the word "infantry", which is synonymous with the term "full". And the weapons of the USSR, the term "assault", which for the infantry roughly means "surrogate." Or, if in a scientific and diplomatic way, then "official".

    I understand ... In the USA there is no concept of "motorized rifle", they have them - infantry, so the infantry rifle laughing. I wonder what the US Marine Rifle is called - a marine rifle?
  26. Kibb
    Kibb 10 March 2018 12: 08
    0
    Quote: wer2
    So the cartridges are completely different. Nagan made a rifle under a bezrantovy cartridge. And Mosin redid it under the welt.

    Well, then the rifles are then completely different
    Quote: wer2
    It is very similar to Lebel. Very very. I would even suggest that he is.

    It looks like, but by the way, Lebel is not a shutter constructor, while the rifle is called Lebel. And the cartridge is generally closer to the 8x50 Manlicher with Lebel 8x50 nothing to do. Speak yourself - another cartridge, another rifle