Military Review

Japanese fighting vehicles

288

Strong falcon hides claws



Last fall, the second Asahi-class destroyer was launched in Nagasaki. The ship received the name "Siranuhi" ("sea glow" - an unexplored optical phenomenon observed off the coast of Japan).

Meanwhile, the head “Asahi”, launched in 2016, is already completing the test cycle. The entry ceremony is scheduled for March 2018.

On the part of the Japanese self-defense forces, only brief information was announced regarding the assignment of the new destroyers: the Asahi and Siranuhi (type 25DD) have enhanced anti-submarine capabilities.

The hull is identical to the previous 19DD “Akizuki” series. External differences have a superstructure, where a new radar with receiving and transmitting modules of gallium nitride is placed (instead of the previously used silicon). Instead of a copy of the American AN / SQQ-89, on the destroyers 25DD a sonar complex of its own design is installed. For economic reasons, the Asahi’s ammunition load has been halved (from 32 to 16 ATC). The destroyer is equipped with a gas turbine power plant with electric transmission.

Here, perhaps, is all that is reliably known about the warships of the sons of Amaterasu.



“Siranuhi” completes the era in stories Japanese fleet. The following projects: a promising destroyer (33DD) and an escort frigate (30DEX) created to work with it in pair will change the appearance of the Japanese Navy. A grouped silhouette, a single “octahedron” of the superstructure with integrated antenna devices and a composite case. However, I would not attach much importance to this information: the launch of the head 33DD is planned for the year 2024. Given the paranoid secrecy traditional for Japanese around priority projects, it is not possible to describe the exact appearance of the 33DD destroyer.

Returning to the “Siranuhi” and “Asahi”: over the past three decades, the Japanese ships were built in accordance with a strict concept. At the head of combat groups are large destroyers with the Aegis system (6 units), focused on accomplishing missile defense tasks and intercepting targets at the boundary of the atmosphere and space. Around the "flagships" built a dense ring of escort from 20 destroyers, designed in Japan.

While maintaining the overall layout and features of the American Arly Berkov, Japanese projects are smaller, but they have a richer set and increased efficiency in solving defensive tasks. For example, the Japanese were the first to introduce a radar with AFAR on a warship (OPS-24 system on the destroyer Hamagiri, 1990 year).

To counter the threats from high-speed low-flying missiles (together with the Netherlands), the FCS-3 radar complex with eight active phased antennas was created. Four - to detect and track targets. Four more - for targeting their own anti-aircraft missiles.

To date - one of the best systems for this purpose.

Japanese fighting vehicles


In one form or another (FCS-3A, OPS-50), the complex is installed on all destroyers of the Japanese Self-Defense Forces, starting with the 2009 year. A feature of this RLC is the centimeter range of work, which provides the best resolution (at the cost of reducing the detection range).

Such combat means are prescribed to act in conjunction with Aegis destroyers.

The most formidable and modern - “Akizuki” (“autumn moon”) and “Asahi” (“rays of the rising sun”). A squad of six samurai, who, even in isolation from their senior counterparts, remain one of the best projects in the world of destroyer squadrons. The existing shortcomings (lack of a long-range radar) are overlapped by their main advantage - a clear correspondence to the tasks facing them.

Multifunctional warships (7 thousand tons - enough to accommodate any weapons) with outstanding near-air defense. With long-range goals in the stratosphere instructed to deal with Aegis.

I do not like the Japanese. But like their engineering thought, their ships
- from the Internet


Small ammunition - the illusion of peacetime. The Japanese had already demonstrated a similar focus, with the replacement of the Mogami artillery towers. The cruisers, in secret, were designed for 8 "caliber, but, according to the terms of the international agreement, they carried" fake "six-inch. Until the thunder clap. And the Japanese have four heavy cruisers from nowhere.

In the case of the “Asahi” - a ship with a full w / and 7 thousand tons is clearly designed for more. Surely, there is a reserved space for additional modules of CIP.

Impact armament is missing for political reasons. Taking into account the state of Japanese science and industry, creating their own analogue of “Calibra” is not a problem for them, but minor expenses.

The Japanese authorities are exploring the possibility of creating a production of long-range cruise missiles for attacking ground targets. This publication told a source in the cabinet of the country. Such plans arose in connection with the unstable situation on the Korean Peninsula.

- Sankei newspaper, 28 December 2017

Japan’s own RCC has been established for a long time (“Type 90”). Unified for launch from surface ships and submarines.

Until recently, the Japanese had no noticeable experience in military shipbuilding. Sounds funny to the creators of “Nagato” and “Yamato”. Alas, the experience of the past was irretrievably lost along with the defeat in the war.

For forty years, surface forces were frigates with American weapons. The Japanese conducted their own equipment upgrades (FCS-2 control system for the CS Sporrow air defense system), launched a large-scale production of gas turbine power plants under license (Mitsubishi-Rolls-Royce, Ishikawjima-Harima), but the overall level of the warship looked unworthy descendants of admiral yamamoto.

The breakthrough occurred in 1990, when, with great difficulty, technical documentation was transferred to Japan for the destroyer Arly Burk and the Aegis naval air defense system.



Having obtained the technology, the Japanese immediately built 4 first-class destroyers of the type “Congo”. The name is not related to the African state. “Congo” - in honor of the legendary battle cruiser, participant of both world wars, in translation - “indestructible”.
From their American "twins", the Japanese Aegis are distinguished by a truss mast and more bulky superstructure, which houses the flagship command post.

What happened next is easy to guess. The serial construction of warships on their own projects, combining the best features of Arly Berkov with Japanese ideas about the modern fleet, began.



For one decade, 14 destroyers of the type “Murasame” and “Takanami” were put into operation, which became teaching aids on the way of the revival of the Navy. The design of these ships embodied the most advanced solutions of the time (remember, this is about the middle of 1990's):

- solid superstructure “from side to side”, reminiscent of “Burke”;

- elements of technology "stealth". The hull and the superstructure received non-repeating angles of inclination of the outer surfaces, and radio-transparent materials were used in the construction of the masts;

- universal launchers Mk.41 and Mk.48;

- Combined electronic warfare station NOLQ-3, copied from the US “Slick-32”;

- for the first time in world practice - radar with AFAR;

- a prototype of the new generation of CICS, the development of which later became ATECS (advanced technology command system) - “Japanese Aegis”. Actually, no one doubted the Japanese successes in the field of microelectronics.

- large-scale measures to increase automation, which made it possible to reduce the crew of the Murasame to 170 people;

- a powerful and "intake" gas turbine installation capable of reaching full power in 1,5 minutes.

The rest - without the madness and excesses. The goal was to build reliable and balanced ships, whose appearance matched the current capabilities of the industry.

Need to be taken for the fact that you can finish in one day. Tomorrow will also be only one day.


The Japanese, with their characteristic perseverance and attention to detail, were not even too lazy to build a full-scale “mock-up” of a destroyer with the curious name JS-6102 Asuka. In fact - a test bench for testing new solutions. In view of the almost complete identity of its characteristics to the combatant ships (with the exception of some units and the “hodgepodge” of weapons), the Japanese, if necessary, will have another destroyer.



Having mastered the technique of building modern warships to perfection, the samurai moved on to more expensive and technically sophisticated projects. This is how “Akizuki” (2010) and “Asahi” (2016) appeared.

To date, having 30 combat units of the ocean zone, including 26 missile destroyers and 4 aircraft carriers, given the technical level of these means, the surface component of the self-defense defense force of Japan in terms of dignity ranks second in the world. The economic component of success - Japan’s military expenditures make up just 1% of GDP (the leader among developed countries is Russia with an indicator over 5%), and in absolute terms the Japanese military budget is inferior to the domestic one by 1,5 times.

The main question remains - when will the Japanese self-defense forces finally remove their “self-defense” from their name?

Instead of an afterword:

The Japanese naval miracle of the beginning of the 20th century, which turned the Land of the Rising Sun into a superpower, became possible only thanks to the amazing rationalism of "Teikoku Kaigun" (Imperial Fleet). In contrast to the confusion and vacillation that prevailed in the naval headquarters and admiralty of many countries (and especially in Russia), the Japanese did not make almost a single mistake, having adopted from the British allies all the most advanced equipment, tactics, combat training, basing and supply systems , - and in the shortest possible time having created from scratch the modern fleet dominating in the Far Eastern waters.

- from the book “The Triumphants of Tsushima. Armadillos of the Japanese Navy ”, S. Balakin

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  1. NEXUS
    NEXUS 5 January 2018 05: 52
    17
    Last fall, the second Asahi-class destroyer was launched in Nagasaki. The ship received the name "Siranuhi" ("sea glow" - an unexplored optical phenomenon observed off the coast of Japan).

    The Japanese forgot the history lesson that mattresses taught them, dropping nuclear bombs on their cities. And again they are arming, stepping on the same rake. At the same time, friends with those who once drowned in the blood of their city.
    The Japanese and Europeans completely forgot their past and the lessons that were taught to them. A short memory of these peoples. And without the past, the people will not have a future, their identity, wisdom and culture, originality. Themselves as an eraser erase their history for the amusement of the corporations and the rich, whom this historical memory interfered with.
    1. Dart2027
      Dart2027 5 January 2018 07: 00
      15
      Quote: NEXUS
      At the same time, they are friends with those who once drowned in the blood of their city.

      Well friendship is another question. Japan is actually occupied, and what they think is another matter.
      1. The leader of the Redskins
        The leader of the Redskins 5 January 2018 10: 09
        33
        Do you offer them to be friends with those who, in their opinion, owe them islands? ... Or are you going to be friends with those who have piled on our great-grandfathers near Tsushima? No, my friend ... The Japanese sooner realized that war could be won on bank exchanges. Therefore, the Americans became closer to them ...
        1. Dart2027
          Dart2027 5 January 2018 10: 28
          +7
          Quote: Leader of the Redskins
          Do you offer them to be friends with those

          In politics, friendship is a relative term.
          1. ICT
            ICT 5 January 2018 11: 23
            17
            no need to go

            Su-24 - tomatoes - gas - С-400
            1. Dart2027
              Dart2027 5 January 2018 11: 31
              +3
              Quote: TIT
              no need to go

              With Su-24, the story is dark and the whole truth is unlikely to be told.
              1. zyablik.olga
                zyablik.olga 5 January 2018 12: 10
                +9
                Quote: Dart2027
                With Su-24, the story is dark and the whole truth is unlikely to be told.

                Do you think this is another "multi-path"? belay
                1. seti
                  seti 5 January 2018 13: 31
                  11
                  With whose supply our Su-24 was shot down, I think it's not difficult to guess. It is necessary to search for whom it is most favorable. And to whom the cooperation of Russia and Turkey with a fish bone in the throat. Like the murder of Ambassador Karlov. Turkey and Erdogan needed it at that time? Think with your head - everything is obvious.
                  1. zyablik.olga
                    zyablik.olga 6 January 2018 11: 05
                    +8
                    Quote: seti
                    Think with your head, everything is obvious.

                    Excuse me, are you thinking of any other part of your body?
                    Quote: seti
                    From whose filing our Su-24 was shot down, I think it is not difficult to guess.

                    Those. you want to say that the leadership of Turkey is not involved in this? No.
                    Quote: seti
                    And to whom the cooperation of Russia and Turkey with fish bone in the throat. Like the assassination of Ambassador Charles.
                    Did our ambassador get killed by a missile fired from a Turkish fighter? No.
                    Quote: seti
                    Turkey and Erdogan had it at that time?
                    What do you mean by Turkey, the Turkish people or those in power? Regarding Erdogan, do not harbor illusions, this is extremely cynical and selfish, and at the same time not very distant person. And at the same time a frank enemy of Russia.
                    1. seti
                      seti 6 January 2018 15: 27
                      +7
                      The leadership of Turkey is certainly involved in the destruction of Su-24 and the assassination of the ambassador. The question is how. Direct or indirect. And who exactly. The first one gives the impression that directly, but with the second, not everything is so obvious. At that time, the murder of Charles of Turkey was just as necessary as the murder of Griboedov to Iran. This can be seen from the events that took place in Turkey at that time (negotiations at the highest level on TP, military contracts, nuclear power plants, trade relations, etc.). Cooperation was already established and differences were resolved. In addition, Turkey began to work for us little by little and not against us in Syria. It didn’t fail with the first (and the goal was the war between a country belonging to NATO and the Russian Federation) they conceived the second .. In order to prevent even closer rapprochement between our countries, most likely the third party organized the assassination of our ambassador. Who exactly the leadership of both countries knows but we naturally will not be brought up for discussion.
                      And as for Erdogan ... Enemy? Naturally. But we are surrounded by enemies and all we need to do is trade with them somehow to communicate and develop cooperation. It is better to have Turkey flimsy but an ally in interests than an open enemy. And to sit in isolation and drink vodka .. This we have already passed .. Something like this.
                2. Dart2027
                  Dart2027 5 January 2018 13: 49
                  +3
                  Quote: zyablik.olga
                  Do you think this is another "multi-path"?

                  In my opinion, the main beneficiary from the breakdown of relations that some have called for would not be Erdogan and certainly not Russia
                  1. sabotage
                    sabotage 6 January 2018 11: 00
                    +8
                    Russia climbed into Syria to blackmail the Turks with the Turkish stream. We wanted 4 pipes of 15 billion each, and let the Turks bargain, and so they decided to bomb the Turkomans a bit so that the Turks become more accommodating. But the Turks, do not be fools, shot down the SU-24, got off with tomatoes, got a loan for C400, nuclear power plants, squeezed a couple of Gazprom subsidiaries and allowed to pull one pipe. With good behavior will be allowed to pull the second. So the Ukrainians benefit here, which in 2019 will come to humiliate Gazprom on their terms. The Turks, who get nishtyaks at the expense of the budget of the Russian Federation and Gazprom, benefit here.
                    1. Dart2027
                      Dart2027 6 January 2018 11: 24
                      +6
                      Quote: sabotage
                      Russia climbed into Syria to blackmail the Turks

                      Will the source be? Or as usual OBS?
                      1. Golovan Jack
                        Golovan Jack 6 January 2018 12: 02
                        +9
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Will the source be?

                        (lazily): what, to the dogs, is the "source" ...
                        People registered on 29.12.2017/XNUMX/XNUMX, he still did not learn such words laughing
                      2. sabotage
                        sabotage 7 January 2018 00: 46
                        +5
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Quote: sabotage
                        Russia climbed into Syria to blackmail the Turks

                        Will the source be? Or as usual OBS?

                        The source is inferences. Who will allow such a breakdown of officials?

                        But why climb into Syria? Did the fate of the Syrian people worry? Has terrorism begun to bother? So the Qatari partners shot down an airplane from Egypt, but they didn’t drop a single bomb, only a 19% stake in Rosneft nearly crushed it. So the plane is just an excuse. And the speed of deployment of the group hints at this.

                        https://ria.ru/arab_sy/20110621/391155616.html 2011 year.
                        “For some reason, it is believed that we had some special relations with Syria. Sometime in the Soviet times there were some special relations. Now this is not. Syria now has rather special relations with France. We do not have no special interests: neither military bases, nor large projects, nor our multi-billion dollar investments that we should have defended there. There is nothing there, "Putin said.


                        Years passed, the supply of arms and military equipment to Syria was disrupted. With the help of Russia, Assad was substituted under the plan of Kofi Anan.

                        April 16 2015 years
                        "For us, of course, there is no direct threat from ISIS," Putin said during the "direct line."


                        But only the process of the Turkish stream suddenly stopped and the plane exploded, and terrorism bothered, and Assad promptly threw ours, and Isil bothered, but mostly the moderate were bombed: Idlib, Aleppo, Hama. And they are almost all sponsored by the Turks.



                        So think for yourself, decide for yourself. Russia, like any capitalist country, defends the interests of big capital, both because of the oligarchic structure, and because this large capital commands entire sectors of the economy, and without these sectors it can be very bad. Read more with Chubais in his prophecy of September 25, 2003 (many letters, but read on the fly).

                        http://www.lenpravda.ru/today/251871.html

                        But Russia strictly trades only gas. Because of gas, Russia is cursing with Belarus and Ukraine. Why not add Turks to this list?
                    2. igorka357
                      igorka357 8 January 2018 11: 33
                      +1
                      What nonsense you carried, although your nickname is clear!
        2. Mikado
          Mikado 6 January 2018 14: 39
          +2
          Or are you going to be friends with those who piled on our great-grandfathers near Tsushima?

          symbolically it turns out. what Asahi completes the test cycle. It remains to build "Fuji" and "Sikishima", and "Mikasa" they are already afloat. But, I hope, this will not come to this. (for those who do not understand, this is a set of Japanese squadron battleships during the battle in the Yellow Sea and Tsushima. The battleship Mikasa is now a museum).
          1. igorka357
            igorka357 8 January 2018 11: 35
            +1
            Yes, that’s right, the names of their ships are historical .. among other things, we do. We should have a couple of strategists called Borodino, Oslyabya, Oryol .. well, that’s it!
      2. seos
        seos 5 January 2018 10: 11
        +2
        The older generation understands the occupation, but those that are younger were grown on an American education.
      3. Nikolay Fedorov
        Nikolay Fedorov 5 January 2018 15: 41
        +5
        Quote: Dart2027
        Quote: NEXUS
        At the same time, they are friends with those who once drowned in the blood of their city.

        Well friendship is another question. Japan is actually occupied, and what they think is another matter.

        Most young Japanese, according to polls, think that Russia dropped nuclear bombs on them. Therefore, they sincerely love America and sincerely do not like Russians.
        1. philosopher
          philosopher 5 January 2018 19: 54
          +9
          Bad you are opinions about young Japanese. This myth was dispelled by our compatriots living in Japan. Young and not very Japanese people know history much better than Americans do about the authorship of atomic bombings. Another thing is their attitude to these bombings. They were told that if the USA had not shown the USSR the power of atomic weapons on theirs, Japan, for example, ours would not have stopped even after Manchuria, they would have conducted a military operation on the Japanese islands, as they did in Europe, comparing it with the earth city after city, until they would seize the whole country and not shoot the imperial family, establishing socialism in their country. In short, the Americans hung ramen on their ears that they still got off easily.
          And here it was already somehow erased from the memory that the USSR generally entered the war in the east only on the condition that all of the islands of the Lesser Kuril ridge (our former but captured Japanese) were transferred to us; as well as the fact that our troops honestly - “army against army” - their most powerful military group — the Kwantung Army — was defeated, moreover, they captured almost half and then released them. Apparently, the shame of defeat and captivity would be much faster to forget than the death of millions of civilians, including old people and children, from atomic bombs.
          In addition, to say that the Japanese do not like Russians is an exaggeration. More precisely, they don’t know anything. But who really does not like Russians is probably the South Koreans. Another friend of America, who took a well-known position in relation to her.
          1. Dalailama
            Dalailama 6 January 2018 00: 57
            +1
            Who did their polls in Japan after 2008, before which the vast majority of Japanese thought that the USSR had done it.
          2. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 05: 08
            +4
            Quote: philosopher
            They were told that if the USA had not demonstrated the USSR

            In fact, this garbage, as far as I know, has never been. And there was a version that KhiN allowed the sixth column to finally surrender the islands to the Americans, preventing the implementation of the ideas of real patriots to counter the operation of Downfall, so that civilians shovel cuttings bamboo spears rushed at the Sherman.
            Actually, everyone would have to hand over the islands, it was clear to everyone from the middle of 44 years (and who is smarter - from the summer of 42), and every new day of the war was a crime of the Japanese government against the Japanese people.
            1. Dalailama
              Dalailama 6 January 2018 05: 38
              +2
              How would these Shermans end up there?
              In 1944, Japan drove the Shavers in the border with Burma, India.
              In 1945, the Japanese Air Force was already superior in quality to Americans in piston engines and there were fifty replicas of the Me-262 which, even without kamikaze services, they would have carried the entire fleet of the invasion.
              Against the T-34k they were taught with pole mines (it still would not help), which could be transported there from Sakhalin even on rafts in torpedo boats in tow.
              1. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 9 January 2018 11: 29
                +1
                Quote: DalaiLama
                In 1944, Japan drove the Shavers in the border with Burma, India.

                In 1942. In 1944, the Imperial Army shamefully failed the Imphal operation, having organized in the midst of battles a discussion between the divisional commanders and the commander on the need to carry out orders. For several days, one of the IJA divisions sat next to the only road to Imphal - while its division commander argued that he could not advance further. According to the results of the operation, EMNIP, all divisors were withdrawn. But this didn’t help the Japanese anymore - after the defeats at Kokhim and Imphal, their front simply collapsed.
                Quote: DalaiLama
                In 1945, the Japanese Air Force was already superior in quality to Americans in piston engines and there were fifty replicas of the Me-262 which, even without kamikaze services, they would have carried the entire fleet of the invasion.

                Yeah ... and they would fly into the air on the proud strength of the spirit of the Yamato warriors. Where can I get gas for these planes? And where to get the pilots, for the training of which they also need gasoline?
                And about the quality superiority ... where was it when the Yankees finished off the IJN remnants right in the parking lots in the main fleet base? When did deck-mounted IBAs chase trains on Japanese railways? When did LeMey burn Tokyo? The "quality superiority" of Japanese aviation was such that by the summer of 1945 there were no large targets left for mass B-29 raids (except for the four cities planned for the use of nuclear weapons), and LeMei was forced to switch to smaller cities.
                The Germans in 1944, too, "excelled Americans in piston engines" and had the Me-262. Did it help them?
                1. Dalailama
                  Dalailama 9 January 2018 12: 56
                  0
                  In Burma, the Japanese drove the Americans and the British through rice fields. The offensive there was in 1945.
                  The Germans crushed the Soviet Union, the Japanese saved jet fuel to repel the American invasion fleet. It would not have helped from the Soviet crossing of the straits.
                  Deckers attacked Japan once at the very end, after which one of the aircraft carriers immediately received a bomb from a single Japanese piston aircraft into the deck (which, after the attack, even without being reactive, went away with impunity) and the operation was canceled.
                  1. Alexey RA
                    Alexey RA 9 January 2018 17: 25
                    +1
                    Quote: DalaiLama
                    In Burma, the Japanese drove the Americans and the British through rice fields. The offensive there was in 1945.

                    Yeah ... they drove. About how our “chased” Germans near Rzhev in 1942. Only IJA combat losses during these “chases” amounted to 65 out of 000. And the result:
                    Sato planned to begin his retreat on May 30, abandoning all his gear and covering himself with suicide squads who were supposed to close the passes. In the last days before the target date, Sato desperately sent radiograms to the army headquarters. “From Chinduin itself,” one of them said, “we have not received from you a single cartridge, not a single grain of rice. We are constantly attacked by the enemy. Send us food by air. The enemy gets food and ammunition all the time. ” Finally, on the evening of May 30, Sato informed Mutaguchi that he had no choice but to begin the retreat. Sato was right - it was on these days that Slim expressed confidence that the British could not only win the battle, but that they would soon cut off and completely destroy the Japanese army that had become mired in battle. Mutaguchi’s response was short: “Stand back - go to the tribunal.” Sato also answered briefly: "We will go to the tribunal together." The radio of the 31st division was silent, and only the next day the army headquarters in Memo received the last telegram from Sato: "The operational capabilities of the army headquarters are lower than those of the cadets." After that, the walkie-talkie was defeated, like everything that could be destroyed, and the division began to move east. Upon learning of this, Mutaguchi stated that Sato was a traitor who thwarted the offensive, which was to decide the outcome of the battle in favor of the Japanese army, and ordered the remaining 15th and 33rd divisions, whose commanders could not be as stubborn as Sato, tread on Imphal again. The offensive, as one would expect, failed, and a heavy retreat began. On June 27, General Sato, after transferring the remnants of the division through Chinduin, was sacked “by sickness”. A few weeks later he was deprived of command of the army and recalled Mutaguchi.
                  2. Alexey RA
                    Alexey RA 9 January 2018 18: 17
                    0
                    Quote: DalaiLama
                    The Germans crushed the Soviet Union, the Japanese saved jet fuel to repel the American invasion fleet. It would not have helped from the Soviet crossing of the straits.

                    But what, Soviet ships are somewhat different from American? Or are we forcing straits along the sea like a dry land? wink
                    Ours, even during the landing on the Kuril Islands, managed to get under several airborne safety battalions of local aviation, which drowned one boat. And what was happening in Korea - from commanding the landing directly from Vladivostok to the complete lack of communication between the marines and the fleet. As a result, ours managed to turn the occupation of the port left by the Japanese into a multi-day saga of the epic overcoming of superior enemy forces by marines.
                    Quote: DalaiLama
                    Deckers attacked Japan once at the very end, after which one of the aircraft carriers immediately received a bomb from a single Japanese piston aircraft into the deck (which, after the attack, even without being reactive, went away with impunity) and the operation was canceled.

                    Are you talking about Franklin? So he got the bomb back in March 1945, when TF.58 cleaned the air bases in Kyushu as part of the DESO on Okinawa. And no one turned off the operation - after stripping Kyushu TF.58, according to the plan, it moved to Okinawa to block the island from the air and cover the landing.
                    But after the capture of Okinawa, in July 1945, TF.38 passed fire and a sword along the Japanese coast, having precisely the objects of the Metropolis as the primary goal.
                    July 8 - attack on airfields around Tokyo and Tokyo.
                    July 14-15 - hit on Honshu and Hokkaido. To strike along the coast were even used LC.
                    July 17-18 - again a blow to Tokyo.
                    July 24, 25 and 28 - pogrom in Kobe and Kura. IJN ceased to exist.
                    July 29-30 - a hit on Honshu.
                    August 8-9 - again a blow to Honshu and Hokkaido.
                    August 13 - Tokyo again.
                    A month (!) AB frolic off the coast of Japan - with virtually no opposition.
                    1. Dalailama
                      Dalailama 10 January 2018 00: 20
                      0
                      Read about Japanese light tanks in rice fields.
                      Losses in the boat sunk near the shore probably can not be compared with a large ocean vessel. In Korea, everything happened successfully. You portray here you are anti-Soviet pro-American dregs.
                      Went to Okinawa ...
                      Why didn’t they land? You have an alternative story. Kure ceased to exist from raids by strategists. Tactical air strikes after the episode with the aircraft carrier were made from unsinkable Iwojima.
                      On August 9-14, the USSR crushed Japan in Asia (an attack that they were waiting for, but hoped to stay on the defensive), a little later on Sakhalin with access to Hokkaido through a narrow strait, and Japan fell into the hands of the Americans. One kamikaze for every small speedboat is too luxurious, and try to get into it too.
                      1. Alexey RA
                        Alexey RA 10 January 2018 11: 16
                        +1
                        Quote: DalaiLama
                        Losses in the boat sunk near the shore probably can not be compared with a large ocean vessel.

                        You will first fly to this ship. Unlike our fleet, the Yankees worked very well to cover the landing forces.
                        Quote: DalaiLama
                        In Korea, everything happened successfully. You portray here you are anti-Soviet pro-American dregs.

                        Mwa ha ha ... how you famously recorded General Kabanov in the American singers. laughing This is because in his memoirs he described the whole mess that turned into a pre-planned landing in Korean ports under the wise leadership of the Pacific Fleet command.
                        Quote: DalaiLama
                        Why didn’t they land?

                        So did not have time - Japan surrendered earlier.
                        Quote: DalaiLama
                        You have an alternative story. Kure ceased to exist from raids by strategists. Tactical air strikes after the episode with the aircraft carrier were made from unsinkable Iwojima.

                        Yes Yes Yes... Everyone lies © - and Polmar too:
                        Operational Compound 38 refueled again, and then on July 24–25 and 28, its aircraft attacked naval bases in Kobe, Kura and other targets on the shores of the Inland Sea. These attacks destroyed what remained of the Imperial Japanese fleet. The battleship Haruna and the battleship aircraft carriers Ise and Hyuuga were severely damaged and sank in shallow water. (Incidentally, the first of them was declared sunk by the Air Force back in December 1941 after the B-17 attack by Colin Kelly.) This time, “Haruna” received “many” hits. On July 24, the Hyuuga battleship aircraft carrier received 10 direct hits with bombs, even more bombs exploded nearby, after which the battleship sank to the bottom. American planes attacked him again on July 28. Ise received 5 direct hits on July 24th and 14 hits on July 28th. Many bombs exploded at the side of the ship. Heavy B-24 Libererator bombers also attacked these 3 ships on July 28, but did not achieve any hits.
                        During these raids, 3 Japanese aircraft carriers were also hit. The latest aircraft carriers Amagi and Katsuragi were in Kura. On July 24, Amagi received 3 direct hits, many bombs exploded nearby, causing him severe injuries. On July 28, he received one more direct hit, several bombs exploded nearby, including those dropped by the Liberators. There was a roll to the left side, which began to increase. On the morning of July 1, the aircraft carrier lay down with a roll of 29º.
                        “Katsuragi” on July 24 received 1 direct hit and 2 more hits on July 28. On it 26 people were killed and 17 were injured. The flight and hangar decks were rotated, but the aircraft carrier remained afloat. On July 28, his guns were shot down by an aircraft attacking the nearby Amagi.
                        July 24 aircraft carriers also sank the escort aircraft carrier "Kayo".

                        And why organize raids from Iwo Jima if the Americans had Okinawa?
                    2. Dalailama
                      Dalailama 10 January 2018 12: 54
                      0
                      Yes, no problem, especially on the jet J8N-1. You speak for your fleet, which has an entire aircraft carrier from a single advanced piston ogrev.
                      It was written why she capitulated.
                      Invasion forces, where is the landing? For a month they “maneuvered” something there.
                      From Okinawa subsequently, too, but not for long.
            2. philosopher
              philosopher 7 January 2018 10: 16
              0
              Yes, propaganda is doing its job. But the opinion of the elderly in Japan hardly succumbed to the influence of occupying American propaganda. In their youth, they listened to their parents, who explained to them that death is better than the shame of the emperor’s betrayal by their surrender. But the emperor himself decided everything, removing the burden of guilt from his fellow citizens. And only then there were such cartoons as "Barefoot Gene", where the father of GG expresses the opinion that the war is not needed and that it is necessary to surrender as soon as possible. Here is the visual effect of propaganda on subsequent generations.
              Nobody was going to hand over the islands (with the exception of certain schizophrenic pacifists) while Japan had an army, which, in fact, history knows. The Americans clearly realized this. U did not have enough strength for a ground operation against the Japanese army, and those skirmishes on individual islands are called “War” only by the mouths of American historians, in order to increase the significance of their contribution. The atomic bombs are over, the army is weak (both in numbers and in small combat experience), and in the Far Eastern theater of war, it is even weaker. All this caused pressure on Stalin to defeat the Japanese army on the continent. By the way, since the emperor did not withdraw the army to the islands for protection, it means that the military leadership did not see much need for this, but the surrender of continental conquests meant the loss of all Japan's achievements in that war, which amounted to defeat, even without surrender to the samurai.
          3. Korax71
            Korax71 8 January 2018 10: 53
            +1
            Well, honestly, you’ll look at the strength and armament of the Kwankn army for 45 years, and not 41. Of the former power, a third remained at best, and those are mostly poorly trained recruits, practically without tanks and aircraft. And South Korea, of course I must also thank you for the fact that thanks to our support and China, a rather bloody massacre was unleashed.
            1. Dalailama
              Dalailama 10 January 2018 06: 15
              0
              To be honest, by 1945 the Kwantung Army was pumped back and it was the most elite, because the USSR was against it on a wide front across the river, and not Australia overseas. How the Soviet planes and tanks know how to fight the Japanese were shown during the conflict on Khalkhin Gol.
              South Korea was the most criminal hole in the world until 1984, and the war began after South Korean provocations following the crackdown on the anti-American Jeju rebellion. Neither China nor the USSR needed this war; both countries had to recover after WWII.
        2. Greenwood
          Greenwood 6 January 2018 09: 17
          +8
          Quote: Nikolai Fedorov
          Therefore they sincerely love america
          America is among youth and many people love us. There, the standard of living is higher, more opportunities, the climate is better. Given that television and radio in Russia is completely clogged with American shows, series and films, I would be surprised if it were different. How to deny it does not make sense.
          Quote: Nikolai Fedorov
          and sincerely do not like Russians.
          But this is a complete lie !!! I myself study Japanese, so I occasionally communicate with native speakers, I know a lot of young Japanese who learn Russian and are fond of Russian culture. We have a bunch of Japanese students living in Vladivostok. In Japan, many universities teach Russian as a second foreign language and Russian culture. And Russians at the household level are treated exactly the same as Europeans and Americans. They do not like Muslims and blacks, but here you will not condemn them. wink
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 14: 35
            +6
            Quote: Greenwood
            America is among youth and many people love us.

            Why only in youth?
            Quote: Greenwood
            Considering that television and radio in Russia are completely clogged with American shows, series and films,

            Are you living in some alternative Russia, or are you watching TV on the Internet in the form of netflix? They are clogged, in my opinion, antiAmerican bullshit. And this is also a big plus for America. She can be loved only because the Russian deputies do not like her (as it were).
            1. philosopher
              philosopher 7 January 2018 10: 28
              +1
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              You live in some alternative Russia

              In the only now. Alternative, where the citizens (and not just the government) America was considered the enemy, remained in the past, until 1991. But there were absolutely real reasons for that.
              But the fact that the majority of young people today does not even think of defending their homeland from American aggression, considering it the liberator of Russia from tyranny, you yourself know who, so the bulk of the electorate (in the sense of the majority of schoolchildren and students) is not in doubt proof of that.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 7 January 2018 14: 42
                +1
                Quote: philosopher
                left in the past, until 1991

                As far as I am aware of the realities of the late USSR, the perception of the United States as an enemy citizens - This is a very simplified picture. Maybe this was the case in the military circle, but civilian politics were perceived without exaltation, as far as they had to face. As now, more or less.
                Quote: philosopher
                will not think today to defend their homeland from American aggression

                From anyone. Even from Ramzan Akhmatych, most likely, they will prefer to cut off.
                But there is a much sadder thing. That part of the youth who can afford it (and not only youth), of course, will break into the airport, but - attention! - She herself will not sit in Abrams and will not go to liberate her Motherland from gebni. And this, perhaps, is the end for Russia.
                Quote: philosopher
                Bulk electorate

                You see. The Russian person has two options to choose his government. Through the embassy of that government, which suits him more, or in ways prohibited by law. "Bulk Electorate" - supporters of the second option. From the point of view of patriotism - this, it seems to me, should cause optimism. People, at least (so far) are linking their future with Russia.
            2. Greenwood
              Greenwood 7 January 2018 12: 09
              +3
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Why only in youth?
              Because the discussion above was about young Japanese.
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              They are clogged, in my opinion, with anti-American bullshit.
              Oh really. Mostly Hollywood movies, purchased American television programs and shows, endless series. Or copied from Hollywood domestic crafts of much worse quality.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 7 January 2018 14: 28
                +3
                Quote: Greenwood
                Or copied from Hollywood domestic crafts of much worse quality.

                Uh-huh.
                But, as far as I know, a lot of time is occupied by the work of Mr. Kiselev and Co., which, at first glance, cannot be classified as pro-American.
                However, I’m not ready to support the conversation about Russian TV, I don’t own the topic.
                1. Greenwood
                  Greenwood 9 January 2018 10: 37
                  0
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  the great time is occupied by the work of Mr. Kiselyov and Co., which, at first glance, cannot be classified as pro-American.
                  This shows the duplicity of Russian TV, as well as the whole of Russian politics. Depicting a “confrontation” with the West as a screen on several central channels, we, in fact, filled all the cultural corners with continuous Americanism.
        3. igorka357
          igorka357 8 January 2018 11: 37
          0
          No poll with such results in nature can exist as long as at least one Yap is alive, they will remember who banged them, as well as the last Russian will remember the Nazis!
    2. Monarchist
      Monarchist 5 January 2018 10: 45
      +3
      They are satisfied that the baboon in NAGASAKI prayed
    3. Greenwood
      Greenwood 5 January 2018 13: 46
      16
      Quote: NEXUS
      The Japanese forgot the history lesson that mattresses taught them, dropping nuclear bombs on their cities.
      Ok, what do you think the Japanese should do?
      Quote: NEXUS
      And again they are arming, stepping on the same rake.
      All countries are arming as far as possible. Russia as well.
      Quote: NEXUS
      At the same time, they are friends with those who once drowned in the blood of their city.
      How many times in history have we fought with Germany ?! And this does not prevent us from actively cooperating. We must go forward and look to the future, and not get stuck in the past.
      Yes, and we must remember that it was the United States, thanks to loans, technical assistance and access to its market, that made one of the most developed and richest countries in the world from poor, destroyed Japan.
      Quote: NEXUS
      A short memory of these peoples.
      Let us continue to sulk on Germany for the crimes of the Nazis and on France for Napoleon. fool
      Quote: NEXUS
      And without the past, the people will not have a future, their identity, wisdom and culture, originality. Themselves as an eraser erase their history for the amusement of the corporations and the rich, whom this historical memory interfered with.
      That's with something, but with culture and identity in Japan, everything is in order. In the summer, he lived in Tokyo for almost a month, sometimes there was a feeling that he was in the near future. The contrast with Russia is beyond.
      1. NEXUS
        NEXUS 5 January 2018 14: 09
        +6
        Quote: Greenwood
        Ok, what do you think the Japanese should do?

        Go your own way in history, and not go under the mattresses and corporations.
        Quote: Greenwood
        All countries are arming as far as possible. Russia as well.

        Dear, just don’t think that you are smarter than the others ... we are arming ourselves for protection. We don’t need to attack the same Europe or the USA. But don’t you tell us about the same mattress? And returning to Japan ... excuse me, against whom is she friends? Against Eun, who had Japs and mattresses on the drum, before they started to bully him?
        Quote: Greenwood
        How many times in history have we fought with Germany ?! And this does not prevent us from actively cooperating. We must go forward and look to the future, and not get stuck in the past.

        But who is against it? Only unlike the United States, we do not invoke Germany and arm it with fear and nightmares of fables about the Axis of Evil and the inevitable attack on these same villains. And the Germans know they are buying weapons, the tanks are pulling to our borders ... apparently out of great friendship to us and hostility towards the United States.
        Quote: Greenwood
        Yes, and we must remember that it was the United States, thanks to loans, technical assistance and access to its market, that made one of the most developed and richest countries in the world from poor, destroyed Japan.

        Yeah ... just don’t say anything further ... but where did all this American wealth come from? It's all in the blood. Until the age of 45, mattresses supplied Hitler with oil. And then what happened? Bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and from a strategic point of view, these cities were nothing. And after the mattress they proclaimed that it was this bombing and their "glorious" victories in the Pacific Ocean and in the Atlantic that forced Japan to capitulate. But in fact, the Kwantung Army under the nut, if sclerosis does not fail me, the USSR butchered in a month and only then did Japan surrender.
        Quote: Greenwood
        Let us continue to sulk on Germany for the crimes of the Nazis and on France for Napoleon.

        And let’s you not attract the desired to the real for the genital organs?
        Quote: Greenwood
        In the summer, he lived in Tokyo for almost a month, sometimes there was a feeling that he was in the near future. The contrast with Russia is beyond.

        Yeah ... and eternal cry, give the Kuril Islands ...
        1. vadsonen
          vadsonen 5 January 2018 17: 03
          14
          Go your own way in history, and not go under the mattresses and corporations.

          Russia is trying to do the same as Japan - to integrate into the world division of labor. The difference is that in Japan, the country's leadership is nationally oriented, and in Russia - comprador.
          And therefore, with the absolute advantage of Russia, Japan is absolutely superior in any parameter - be it GDP, standard of living, or development. How many Russians drive Toyota and how many Japanese ride Zhiguli?
          1. KaPToC
            KaPToC 5 January 2018 18: 21
            +3
            Quote: vadsonen
            How many Russians drive Toyota and how many Japanese ride Zhiguli?

            You have chosen an interesting parameter for comparison, but let's compare at a cost .. watermelon.
            Quote: vadsonen
            And therefore, with the absolute advantage of Russia, Japan is absolutely superior in any parameter - be it GDP, standard of living, or development.

            But this is not true, why are you lying? Or do you sincerely believe in this?
            1. vadsonen
              vadsonen 5 January 2018 23: 17
              +5
              Sorry, I didn’t understand about watermelon.

              What exactly is the lie - in the advantageous position of Russia (any resources, vast territory, victory in the Second World War, full sovereignty) compared with Japan (few resources, little space, defeat in WWII, US pressure), or in the fact that the Japanese live long and rich?
              1. KaPToC
                KaPToC 5 January 2018 23: 27
                +5
                Quote: vadsonen
                Sorry, I didn’t understand about watermelon.

                Watermelons in Japan are very expensive, they buy them in slices.
                Quote: vadsonen
                What exactly is the lie - Russia's advantage (any resources, vast territory, victory in the Great Patriotic War, full sovereignty) compared to Japan (few resources, little space, defeat in WWII, US pressure)

                Everything is exactly the opposite. Japan as a vassal of the United States has access to American-controlled markets, Russia is in a much less favorable position compared to Japan on this issue. Advantages for development in Japan and are multiple relative to Russia.
                Quote: vadsonen
                or is the Japanese living long and rich?

                Wealth is a relative concept, depending on what it is measured in, if in consumer electronics and cars they are richer, if in terms of living space Russians are richer than the Japanese and so on many points. The Japanese live long because their climate is very favorable and the Russians have the most unfavorable on the planet.
                1. vadsonen
                  vadsonen 6 January 2018 00: 55
                  +4
                  Japan as a vassal of the United States has access to American-controlled markets, Russia is in a much less favorable position compared to Japan on this issue.

                  In your opinion, the success of Japan is due to access to a wide market, i.e. it’s enough to have a market. However:
                  - An example of, say, the Baltic states or Albania (also US vassals, right?) Proves the opposite.
                  - In the same market, there is still competition! In addition to Japan, there are Korea, Germany, France, Britain, Canada, etc. And, well, the USA itself - with the largest GDP.
                  - The United States is hardly happy to share its market with its own vassals.
                  - China was not a vassal of the United States, but succeeded in the envy of many.
                  - The availability of resources is important! Very important!
                  - Well, the last. It turns out Russia is also a US-controlled market.

                  In general, this point of view does not hold water. However, everything is simple - Japanese products are very competitive. Japanese quality is legendary. It provides a standard of living and prosperity, and not the United States, for which Japan is an evil competitor.

                  And wealth can indeed be measured in different ways. But the living space I would not cite as an example, because according to your logic, every Russian should live in a ten-story mansion. Places wow!

                  By life expectancy. Japan, Russia (Vladivostok), the Republic of Korea and North Korea are all neighbors, and the climate in this region is not fundamentally different. In which two countries do people live in 83, and in which two in 65, I think, it is not necessary to speak.
                  1. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 06: 29
                    +5
                    Quote: vadsonen
                    The US is hardly happy to share its market with its own vassals.

                    Share. The United States, whether it is poor or worse, is much more consistent than anyone else in favor of free trade. That is, not always fanatical, of course, but in general, more than others.
                    Quote: vadsonen
                    China was not a vassal of the United States, but succeeded in the envy of many.

                    China and the USA are, in fact, one economy. At least, while the yuan is fixed.
                    Quote: vadsonen
                    The availability of resources is important! Very important!

                    Why do you think so? Among the most dynamic economies of the second half of the 20th century, there are rich in natural resources (Canada, Australia. USA, Norway, the Persian Gulf) and poor (Japan, Germany, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, China as a whole, South Korea, Switzerland, Ireland, etc.). P.).
                    Among the losers are all resource-rich Africa, Russia, Central Asia, Venezuela, Iran, etc.
                    Quote: KaPToC
                    if in terms of living space, then the Russians are many times richer than the Japanese, and so on many points

                    Excuse me, what kind of statistics are these?
                    1. saturn.mmm
                      saturn.mmm 6 January 2018 09: 37
                      +2
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Share. The United States, whether it is poor or worse, is much more consistent than anyone else in favor of free trade.

                      They stand. After all, the main manufactured product in the USA is the dollar.
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      China and the USA are, in fact, one economy.

                      Yes, China produces US buy.
                      Japan is ambiguous, like the United States, if you lived in Waitington or Tokyo, it does not mean that you lived in all of the United States or throughout Japan.
                      For example, the Japanese have such homes.

                      or such

                      somewhat unusual pictures on the perception of Japan.
                      1. Greenwood
                        Greenwood 6 January 2018 11: 53
                        +9
                        The second picture is the old Hong Kong district of Kowloon. He was already demolished. It has nothing to do with Japan.
                      2. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 14: 41
                        +2
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        somewhat unusual pictures on the perception of Japan.

                        Not surprised. Such a canoe is in any big city. Is it impossible to find such a thing in Northern Europe or Switzerland (although I’m not sure).
                        This suggests that communism in Japan has not yet been built.
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        Yes, China produces US buy.

                        You have a very simplified view of the economy. The share of imports in US GDP, EMNIP, is less than in China.
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        After all, the main manufactured product in the USA is the dollar

                        Yes, but no. The dollar stands at the top of the pyramid of a huge economy. Not only, by the way, American.
                    2. Sergej1972
                      Sergej1972 8 January 2018 02: 08
                      0
                      China as a whole is not poor in natural resources.
                      1. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 8 January 2018 04: 08
                        +2
                        Quote: Sergej1972
                        China as a whole is not poor in natural resources.

                        Anyway. For rare earths, for example, it is very good, for hydrocarbons it is bad.
                        Nevertheless, the contribution of the commodity sector to China's growth is (practically) no.
                      2. saturn.mmm
                        saturn.mmm 8 January 2018 23: 01
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        You have a very simplified view of the economy.

                        Why stir up the water, the United States can’t do without a drawn trillion a year
                        .
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Not surprised.

                        I didn’t try. About 100 people disappear annually in Japan, everything is fine until you lose your job.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        . The share of imports in US GDP, EMNIP, is less than in China.

                        Changes your memory. China, export 2,3 trillion. import 1,576 trillion .; US exports 1,56 trillion; imports 2,21 trillion
                        .
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Yes but no

                        Yes.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        The dollar stands at the top of the pyramid of a huge economy.

                        With a negative trade balance, with unlimited lending to the economy at a meager percentage.
                        Nevertheless, the contribution of the commodity sector to China's growth is (practically) no.

                        Take an interest in China National Petroleum Corporation,
                      3. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 8 January 2018 23: 18
                        +1
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        cannot draw without a drawn trillion a year

                        Why do without it?
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        about 100 people disappear, everything is fine until you lose your job.

                        "Disappearing"? So much even in Russia does not disappear, someone deceived you. Suicide statistics yes, pretty sad, a little better than Russian.
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        Changes you your memory.

                        Do you know the word "share"?
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        Yes.

                        The dollar is not a product, but a service that the Fed provides the international economy. No, except her, no one can, not even the ECB.
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        With a negative trade balance, with unlimited lending to the economy at a meager percentage.

                        Yes. And what's wrong with that?
                  2. Greenwood
                    Greenwood 6 January 2018 09: 38
                    +2
                    Quote: vadsonen
                    Japan, Russia (Vladivostok)

                    Quote: vadsonen
                    and the climate in this region is not fundamentally different
                    Here you are not quite right. There are still differences. In Japan, in most of the territory in winter there are plus temperatures (not counting the northern island of Hokkaido, but there is an average of -5-10 degrees). In Tokyo, now +5 +8, I have a friend (Russian) who lives there, speaks without a hat and walks down the street in an autumn jacket. We have -15 in Vladivostok and humidity with the wind, snow and ice, in short, hell oak tree, even Siberians freeze.
                    As for the summer, the summer in Japan is so stuffy that you can die without kondeya. In Primorye, in this regard, it is easier.
                    Quote: vadsonen
                    In which two countries do people live in 83, and in which two in 65, I think, it is not necessary to speak.
                    I agree here. The climate does not affect life expectancy in any way, the more so the organism of a Russian (and indeed a white European) person tolerates lower temperatures much better than the Japanese.
                    1. saturn.mmm
                      saturn.mmm 6 January 2018 14: 19
                      0
                      Quote: Greenwood
                      The second picture is the old Hong Kong district of Kowloon.

                      Maybe I didn’t take it personally, I won’t argue, the Internet gave me like Sanya blocks in Tokyo, I wanted to express that everything is not so simple in Japan.
                    2. KaPToC
                      KaPToC 6 January 2018 16: 08
                      +1
                      Quote: Greenwood
                      Climate has no effect on life expectancy

                      It is not true
                      1. Greenwood
                        Greenwood 7 January 2018 12: 03
                        +3
                        It’s quite a truth.
                    3. saturn.mmm
                      saturn.mmm 9 January 2018 02: 43
                      0
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Why do without it?

                      There is no need, but there is no need to talk about the great economy.
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Suicide statistics

                      I'm not talking about suicide, people are becoming some kind of "sand quarry generals"
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Do you know the word "share"?

                      Yes, I agree, it was inattentive, although it was not in favor of the United States.
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      The dollar is not a product, but a service that the Fed provides the international economy.

                      Is robbery called a service today?
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Yes. And what's wrong with that?

                      What's so good about that? Where is the great economy?
                      1. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 9 January 2018 03: 12
                        +2
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        What's so good about that? Where is the great economy?

                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        There is no need, but there is no need to talk about the great economy.

                        Sorry? What is your problem?
                        If you are not aware of how monetary stimulation occurs in smaller economies, take a look at the events of December 2014 in Russia.
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        people become "sand pit generals"

                        Homeless / partisans? 100 thousand Japanese a year? And how much has accumulated, a million, two? Oh well.
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        although the share is not in favor of the United States.

                        How did you count the stake? Import denomination / GDP PPP?
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        Is robbery called a service today?

                        "Robbery"? It is difficult to believe a patriot, but the dollar plays the role in the world economy that is, because it is so convenient for everyone. Just because.
                  3. KaPToC
                    KaPToC 6 January 2018 11: 58
                    +2
                    Quote: vadsonen
                    In your opinion, the success of Japan is due to access to a wide market, i.e. it’s enough to have a market.

                    That's right, demand creates supply, but not vice versa.
                    Quote: vadsonen
                    - An example of, say, the Baltic states or Albania (also US vassals, right?) Proves the opposite.

                    Nobody let them into their markets, this is especially evident in Ukraine.
                    Quote: vadsonen
                    - In the same market, there is still competition! In addition to Japan, there are Korea, Germany, France, Britain, Canada, etc. And, well, the USA itself - with the largest GDP.

                    Japan, South Korea and Germany are occupied countries, France has its colonies in northern Africa, Britain - the British Commonwealth.
                    Quote: vadsonen
                    - The availability of resources is important! Very important!

                    Resources can be bought, markets can only be won by military means.
                    Quote: vadsonen
                    - Well, the last. It turns out Russia is also a US-controlled market.

                    Partly yes - in the nineties, Russia very strongly lost its position.
                    Quote: vadsonen
                    By life expectancy. Japan, Russia (Vladivostok), the Republic of Korea and North Korea are all neighbors

                    As for Japan or Korea - you are partially right, as for Russia - you are absolutely wrong. Russia is large and the climate is different in different places, and if they can live up to one hundred years in the Kuban or the Caucasus, somewhere in the Khanty-Mansiysk Autonomous Okrug they die at forty - fifty years old, and I note that not some six do not survive there is poverty, and wealthy and well-fed oil industry workers.
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 14: 44
                      +4
                      Quote: KaPToC
                      Japan, South Korea and Germany are occupied countries,

                      Being an occupied country is a damn good idea, as it turned out. It is a pity that this did not work for everyone.
                      1. KaPToC
                        KaPToC 6 January 2018 16: 17
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Being an occupied country is a damn good idea, as it turned out. It is a pity that this did not work for everyone.

                        Here it must be understood that the same Germans and Japanese were not in poverty before the occupation.
                    2. saturn.mmm
                      saturn.mmm 9 January 2018 19: 24
                      0
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Sorry? What is your problem?

                      When they pay for the result of my work with drawn money, some spiritual discomfort is felt, although I understand that at the moment this is generally accepted.
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      take an interest in the events of December 2014 in Russia.

                      Russia is not a center for issuing world reserve currency.
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Homeless / partisans? 100 thousand Japanese a year?

                      For what I bought for it and sold. Https: //paradoxov.livejournal.com/257465.h
                      tml
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      How did you count the stake? Import denomination / GDP PPP?

                      You propose to calculate the per capita GDP and you will certainly be right, indeed in the United States GDP is much higher than in China and it seems that a really great, developed economy seems to be, but if you look at debt by da it exceeds GDP by da / n, it turns out life on credit.
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      but the dollar plays the role in the world economy that is, because it is so convenient for everyone. Just because.

                      Of course, it is better to dilute your savings than to completely lose them, and there you look and life has passed.
                      1. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 10 January 2018 00: 48
                        +2
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        ore with drawn money, there is a certain spiritual discomfort

                        Not strong in spiritual matters, but they pay you (if you are so lucky) with the universal equivalent of value, which you can exchange for a class of assets that suits you more at any time of your own will in a predetermined proportion (that is, better known than in any other cases). The dollar provides these conditions better than other money or money substitutes.
                        Actually, the universal equivalent of value is one of the main functions of money.
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        Russia is not a center for issuing world reserve currency.

                        Not, of course. What is the question?
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        For what I bought for and sold

                        You see. They wrote to you on January 6 that the author you picked up on is the liar who passes off old Hong Kong to present-day Japan. This can be confirmed with two clicks of the mouse in most browsers (find a picture). Therefore, on January 8, when you posted about 100 thousand missing from the same source, this excuse no longer works.

                        In order to eliminate illiteracy. If a conscientious author gives figures, especially “shocking,” then he always indicates the source. If the figure is given without a reference - you can not take it never. The very fact of the lack of source composes the data.
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        You propose to calculate the per capita GDP and you will certainly be right,

                        No, why do you think so? I am stating that (1,576 / 11,06)> (2,21 / 18,558). And I insist on my opinion.
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        debt on d / n then it exceeds GDP on d / n

                        In the case of the ratio of debt to GDP, it makes no sense to count on d / n. Yes, debt is higher than GDP. Like, for example, my mortgage debt is higher than my annual income (or lower, I don’t remember). What's the problem? That my, say, mother, who does not have a mortgage and pension, seems to be 12 thousand, i.e. Debt to income ratio is much better (i.e. more conservative), richer than me?
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        Of course, it is better to dilute your savings than to completely lose them, and there you look and life has passed.

                        Perhaps your statement is reasonable, but why it did not understand. You can buy everything you think is necessary for your savings. For dollars.
                2. Greenwood
                  Greenwood 6 January 2018 09: 32
                  +3
                  Quote: KaPToC
                  if in terms of living space, then the Russians are many times richer than the Japanese, and so on in many ways.
                  The vast majority of Japanese live in separate two-story houses. Even in Tokyo, if you move away from Downtown. For example, the Suginami district is many kilometers of individual houses with cozy courtyards. Of course, they are located close to each other, but this is much better than the flawed Khrushchevs in Russia. Those small apartments, which are usually shown in films and on video, are rental housing for students, foreigners, or just those who want to live two meters from the center, so as not to travel far to work or study by train.
                  1. saturn.mmm
                    saturn.mmm 10 January 2018 21: 24
                    0
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    I am stating that (1,576 / 11,06)> (2,21 / 18,558). And I insist on my opinion.

                    And why didn’t you take PPP and RVC for China?

                    In Japan, a population decline of about 250 thousand a year. From 2007 to 2015, the population decreased by more than 3 million.
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    In order to eliminate illiteracy.

                    Thank you, studying is not shameful.
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    Like, for example, my mortgage debt is higher than my annual income (or lower, I don’t remember). What's the problem? That my, say, mother, who does not have a mortgage and pension, seems to be 12 thousand, i.e. Debt to income ratio is much better (i.e. more conservative), richer than me?

                    This is not a simple question. Tomorrow (God forbid) your production and payments become smaller, then a child is born, then a car breaks down, your wife buys a fur coat to look no worse than friends, your mother rents an apartment and lives in the country, knits mittens in the evenings and in the afternoon they sell them on their market, have a solid bank account for which interest is accrued, and as a result you come to your mother and ask her to lend a little money and promise to return it soon, but then it turns out that there was a white streak (I repeat, don’t give God, peace and prosperity to you).
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    Perhaps your statement is reasonable, but why it did not understand.

                    This is why everyone is happy with the dollar, while there is no alternative, the United States will make every effort to prevent it from appearing.
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    You can buy everything you think is necessary for your savings. For dollars.

                    Yes, I already bought, Russian rubles, when they were the cheapest.
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 11 January 2018 06: 39
                      +3
                      Quote: saturn.mmm
                      bought, Russian rubles, when they were the cheapest.

                      80? Congratulations.
                      Quote: saturn.mmm
                      there is no alternative yet

                      Dofiga alternatives. A number of transactions, for example, are historically charged only in Swiss francs. The people who were in that business really poked fun when the franc jumped nearly 2 times a few years ago.
                      So with a buck somehow easier.
                      Quote: saturn.mmm
                      tomorrow (God forbid) in crisis

                      Are you on US government debt / GDP? Will their dollars run out in a crisis? Oh well.
                      You do not seem to understand that a state debt that is denominated in national currency is fundamentally different from a state debt nominated in the currency of another state.
                      Quote: saturn.mmm
                      In Japan there is a decline

                      There is one. Poor birth rate, strict migration policy. What is it for?
                      Quote: saturn.mmm
                      And why didn’t you take PPP and RVC for China?

                      Because it's about import. Have you tried to buy an iPhone at PPP?

                      I will tell you a little secret. PPS is an invention of the good uncles from the IMF, so that the rogue was not so offensive. According to this technique, one ruble spent in Magnet has a higher (seemingly many times) PPP than a ruble spent in the "Alphabet of Taste". All factors why in AB, everything is more expensive, PPP ignores.
                      1. saturn.mmm
                        saturn.mmm 11 January 2018 17: 47
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Are you on US government debt / GDP? Will their dollars run out in a crisis?

                        In this case, I considered a particular example, in the case of you and your mother, but if you go to the US crises, why didn’t they print in 2008? Anyway, they would print an infinite number of dollars and give them all out, they would all become rich and happy, besides the world economy would jump off such an emission
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Have you tried to buy an iPhone at PPP

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        A number of transactions, for example, are historically charged only in Swiss francs.

                        The Swiss economy is not comparable with the US economy, Switzerland can be a bank, but the emission center is unlikely, in my unprofessional opinion
                        .
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        80? Congratulations.

                        Just above 75. Thanks.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        There is one. Poor birth rate, strict migration policy. What is it for?

                        Maybe that person is not such a liar, and indeed part of the 250 thousand population goes underground?
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Have you tried to buy an iPhone at PPP?

                        This is precisely what the U.S. modern problem consists in: mobile phones like iPhones (and not just mobile phones) are made not only in the United States, if I’m not mistaken in 2015, in the USA Samsung phones became more popular than iPhones and sanctions were imposed on Samsung and squeezed out of the US market, there was such a case.
                        Developed countries ceased to be monopolists in many areas where they were until the end of the 20th century.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        I will tell you a little secret. PPS is a fiction of good IMF uncles

                        And I thought that Kassel came up with it.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        According to this technique, one ruble spent in Magnet has a higher (seemingly many times) PPP than a ruble spent in the "Alphabet of Taste". All factors why in AB are becoming more expensive, faculty ignores.

                        America is littered with Chinese goods, see Magnet.
                      2. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 11 January 2018 22: 39
                        +1
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        America is littered with Chinese goods, see Magnet.

                        Chinese goods in the United States are involved in the calculation of American PPP.

                        When calculating PPP GDP, you accept that a barrel of oil in Russia invests 3 or more times in GDP than exactly the same American barrel. This, by the way, is about the industry in which mining is included.
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        And I thought that Kassel came up with it.

                        Caught))))
                        I agree, incorrectly put it.
                        The use of Kassel’s cabinet econometric technique, which is not at all about this, for cross-country comparisons of GDP is ... (hereinafter)
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        That is precisely the current problem of the USA that mobile phones

                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        America is littered with Chinese goods

                        What, excuse me, is the problem?
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        Maybe that person is not such a liar, and indeed part of the 250 thousand population goes underground?

                        Justification?
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        Switzerland may be, but the emission center is unlikely

                        What is the difference, what Switzerland can and cannot be?
                        It’s about
                        1. The dollar is not the only currency in international payments.
                        2. The dollar is the main currency of international settlements (in which the maximum number of contracts is nominated) and already just because (and why much else) is most convenient.
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        why not printed in 2008?

                        What for? In the United States, a default was declared, were there any problems with servicing the public debt?
                        Quote: saturn.mmm
                        and would give them all ... would become rich and happy

                        What is this for? You do not confuse the US Fed with the sellers of gonjubas?
                3. Korax71
                  Korax71 8 January 2018 11: 12
                  +1
                  Well, nagging about the climate began, let's remember. Why in Canada they don’t really whine, although the average annual temperature differs by 0.5 degrees. Norway doesn’t cry either, and the Finns don’t cry. And wealth should be measured by developed industry. That’s what the Japanese live on they don’t have such cultivated areas and resources as in Russia, but that didn’t stop them from being the best in many industries. And they have three times more GDP than Russia, and 40 million less people.
                  1. Dart2027
                    Dart2027 8 January 2018 11: 31
                    0
                    Quote: Korax71
                    let's remember. why in Canada they don’t really whine, although the average annual temperature differs by 0.5 degrees. Norway also doesn’t cry, and the Finns don’t cry

                    The total population of Canada is 36 million people, with 2nd place in the world in terms of area, and the main industry is logging, mining and growing wheat.
                    Norway is the largest oil and gas producer in Northern Europe.
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 8 January 2018 15: 34
                      0
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      the main industry is logging, mining and growing wheat.

                      LOL what?

                      Data for 2008. Separately, I note that the mining industry is the right green, and not the left green.
                      For comparison, the RF 2014
                      1. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 8 January 2018 16: 23
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Data for 2008 year

                        Where? Here is only Russia.
                        If you are talking about it then the share of manufacturing is not much higher than in the Russian Federation, but if you read further (https://xreferat.com/59/1465-1-vneshnyaya-torgovl
                        ya-kanady.html), it can be seen that the export is just wheat and forest, and
                        The manufacturing industry is characterized by a high concentration of production and capital, however, in terms of labor productivity it is inferior to other developed countries, in particular the USA. In the structure of manufacturing industry, the main role is played by sectors directly related to highly developed extractive industries, as well as agriculture and forestry.
                        Mechanical engineering accounts for less than 30% of production and the number of people employed in the manufacturing industry, which is lower than in other developed countries. The rapid development of the Canadian manufacturing industry stimulates the growth of domestic demand, which began in 1996, which was also caused by the cheapening of credit. In 1997, a record growth in private investment over the previous 14 years was registered (by 14%). Growth in investment in machinery and equipment amounted to 20%. Up to 40% of all investments went to the computer industry. Somewhat more modest - only about 5% - there was an increase in consumer demand. Canada has a highly developed manufacturing industry, while simultaneously occupying a leading position in the world in the extraction and production of many types of raw materials - nickel, uranium, asbestos, aluminum.
                        , that is, industry for processing on-site what is mined (this is to the question of right and left green)
                      2. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 8 January 2018 16: 41
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Where? Here is only Russia.

                        You are not loading. I can see everything.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        then the share of manufacturing is not much higher

                        Regarding what? Regarding the volume of GDP, no, relative to the production of PI - 1,5 and 4,5 times, respectively.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        export is just wheat and forest

                        Pictures in your own source also not uploaded?

                        I add that the diagram is rather oblique. Here
                        http://vancouverok.com/top-10-eksportnyh-tovarov-
                        kanady /
                        The following data for 2015 are provided.
                        Oil: $ 77.8 billion (19% of total exports)
                        Transport: $ 60 billion (14.7%)
                        Machines, engines, pumps: $ 31.1 billion (7.6%)
                        Gemstones and metals: $ 19 billion (4.7%)
                        Electronic equipment: $ 13.2 billion (3.2%)
                        Plastics: $ 12.5 billion (3.1%)
                        Aircraft, spacecraft: $ 12.3 billion (3%)
                        Timber: $ 11.8 billion (2.9%)
                        Aluminum: $ 8.2 billion (2%)
                        Paper: $ 7.7 billion (1.9%)
                  2. KaPToC
                    KaPToC 8 January 2018 13: 28
                    0
                    Quote: Korax71
                    Well, the nagging started

                    This is not nagging, this is pride for the Russians.
                    Quote: Korax71
                    something in Canada is not very whining, although the average annual temperature varies by 0.5 degrees

                    But the temperature differences vary by twenty degrees.
                    Quote: Korax71
                    norway something does not cry either, and the Finns do not cry.

                    Norwegians are generally warm, Finns live off the coast, Canadians live only in the southern provinces off the Atlantic and Pacific coasts. They have no such thing as ours - so that people live on a rotational basis in the permafrost zone.
                    Quote: Korax71
                    and the gdp of their razika is so much in three more than in Russia, and the people of 40 million less.

                    The most industrialized countries in the world in PPP:
                    China 9 000
                    USA 3 800
                    India 3 500
                    Russia 1 340
                    Japan $ 1 billion
                    Japan is twenty million less, not forty.
                    Quote: Korax71
                    but it didn’t stop them from being the best in many industries

                    For example, in nuclear energy? Or in rocket technology? Maybe for the production of weapons?
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 8 January 2018 15: 37
                      0
                      Quote: KaPToC
                      Russia 1 340
                      Japan $ 1 billion

                      Where does such a rascal come from?
                      1. KaPToC
                        KaPToC 8 January 2018 16: 16
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Where does such a rascal come from?

                        From the Internet, open data, google. These are indicators of industrial production without a service sector. That is, how much this or that country produces goods.
                        Before someone insulting someone like that, check the data, otherwise you’ll be left with the “bullshit” in your head
                      2. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 8 January 2018 17: 06
                        +1
                        Quote: KaPToC
                        From the Internet,

                        The figures you quoted have nothing to do with the economy, this is drawing.
                        1. The entire GDP of the Russian Federation by PPP is $ 3,4 trillion (data from the World Bank 2016).
                        2. The figure of 1,3 yards is 38% of the PPP GDP. The structure of Russia's GDP is given above. 38% of the industry is not recruited in any way.
                        3.
                        That is, how much this or that country produces goods.

                        Nonsense. industry does not equal the production of "goods."
                        4.
                        Quote: KaPToC
                        how much is this or that country

                        Remember, just in case. PPP is never used for cross-country comparisons. Especially by industry. In a sense, it is not used by people related to the economy.
                  3. saturn.mmm
                    saturn.mmm 12 January 2018 19: 11
                    0
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    Chinese goods in the United States are involved in the calculation of American PPP.

                    I believed that the American PPP can not be by definition.
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    What, excuse me, is the problem?

                    The Americans lost the leadership in the automotive industry, shipbuilding, they are worried about the communications satellite market, their Chinese are running out, some of the USA have begun to call a post-industrial country.
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    In the United States, a default was declared, were there any problems with servicing the public debt?

                    As if problems were, everyone rushed together to buy US securities, Gref almost bought Opel
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    Justification?

                    Perhaps out of 250 thousand, someone died, someone emigrated, and someone went underground.
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    What is this for?

                    That would not be destitute.
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    You do not confuse the US Fed with the sellers of gonjubas?

                    Yes, why does the Fed need this hemorrhoids. There’s Congress either examining the roofing felts, considering removing all borders of American debt
              2. Nikolay Fedorov
                Nikolay Fedorov 8 January 2018 14: 11
                +1
                Quote: vadsonen
                ... or is it that the Japanese live long and richly?

                The Japanese live richly because they work like robots. 99 percent of Russian citizens cannot be made to work in the Japanese style for any money. About a long time - a moot point. Calculations of the longevity of the Japanese are based on a very small number of children. This demographic failure has been going on for quite a long time, and it will certainly make itself felt later. Still, the driving force of society is always young, not old. And when there are many old people and few young people, then, without any miracles, problems pile up that cannot be solved, because there is no one to solve. So we can say with confidence that the situation in Japan with longevity and a high standard of living is a temporary phenomenon. Everything will pass like the wind, and everything can change in the opposite direction. And it was already in history. And it will be again.
                1. KaPToC
                  KaPToC 8 January 2018 16: 16
                  0
                  Quote: Nikolai Fedorov
                  The Japanese live richly because they work like robots.

                  Do Americans also work like robots?
            2. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 06: 22
              +5
              Quote: KaPToC
              Quote: vadsonen
              And therefore, with the absolute advantage of Russia, Japan is absolutely superior in any parameter - be it GDP, standard of living, or development.
              But this is not true, why are you lying? Or do you sincerely believe in this?

              And what is there, excuse me, to argue? What do the Japanese have expensive watermelons?
          2. jhltyjyjctw
            jhltyjyjctw 5 January 2018 20: 41
            +2
            Quote: vadsonen
            Russia is trying to do the same as Japan - to integrate into the world division of labor.


            Great, you divided your work: everyone should plow, and you should eat, and multiply.
            1. vadsonen
              vadsonen 5 January 2018 23: 25
              +5
              Great, you divided your work: everyone should plow, and you should eat, and multiply.

              He who plows has the result. The opposite is also true - by the result you can judge who plows and who does not. Compare the GDP of a small, deprived of Japan and a huge, rich in all of Russia, and everything will become clear.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 06: 33
                +4
                Quote: vadsonen
                He who plows has the result. The opposite is also true - by the result you can judge who plows and who doesn’t

                Quote: jhltyjyjctw
                Great, you divided your work: everyone should plow, and you should eat, and multiply.

                There is a lot of irony in the user question jhltyjyjctw. From developed countries, only Jews reproduce properly. Even the Americans have problems with this (they leave as usual for immigrants), while the Japanese have huge problems. A fertility rate of 1,4 is worse than even in Russia or Germany.
              2. saturn.mmm
                saturn.mmm 6 January 2018 09: 47
                0
                Quote: vadsonen
                small, deprived of Japan

                Japan is the size of Germany and how is it so deprived?
                1. Greenwood
                  Greenwood 7 January 2018 18: 15
                  +3
                  Resources.
                  1. saturn.mmm
                    saturn.mmm 8 January 2018 23: 31
                    0
                    Quote: Greenwood
                    Resources.

                    No more than Germany.
            2. Nikolay Fedorov
              Nikolay Fedorov 8 January 2018 16: 47
              +1
              Quote: jhltyjyjctw
              Great, you divided your work: everyone should plow, and you should eat, and multiply.

              And you, Ukrainian abvgdeyka, envy? I want to eat and multiply ourselves, but too lazy to move? recourse
        2. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 06: 19
          +7
          Quote: NEXUS
          Yeah ... and eternal cry, give the Kuril Islands ...

          Yes, actually, do not care for the Kuril Islands more or less. Of course, there are comrades in Japan who force this topic, but there are few of them. As in the Crimea until recently, for example.

          Another thing is that they, in general, have nothing to talk with Russia about. Therefore, the topic of the Kuril Islands, as a rule, is the main thing that they discuss in negotiations.
          Quote: NEXUS
          wealth is all this American where did it come from? It's all in the blood

          As I understand it, the option to "work harder and steal less, at least from each other" is not discussed?
          Quote: NEXUS
          Under 45 years old mattresses

          Charming. Have you been hauling fuel trucks?
          Quote: NEXUS
          And after the mattress they proclaimed that it was this bombing and their "glorious" victories in the Pacific Ocean and the Atlantic that forced Japan to capitulate

          Pure truth.
          Quote: NEXUS
          Kwantung Army

          Which in the summer of the 45th was a Japanese folk storm.
          Quote: NEXUS
          know the Germans are buying weapons, the tanks are pulling to our borders

          The Germans wrote down almost all the tanks. American especially do not buy. In another view, they hurried with pacifism.
          Quote: NEXUS
          we arm ourselves for protection.

          “We,” like almost all other countries, (except, for example, Israel) arm themselves so that arms manufacturers get a little money. By itself, by the way, this is not always bad.
          Quote: NEXUS
          Eun, who was on the drum of the Japs with mattresses, until they started to bully him?

          There is an opinion that comrade Eun managed to get even the Chinese, although there are even flexible people.
          Quote: NEXUS
          Go your own way in history, not go to bed

          Only here the Japanese did not ask you about their path in history.
        3. Greenwood
          Greenwood 6 January 2018 09: 57
          +6
          Quote: NEXUS
          Go your own way in history
          They used to go their own way. They managed to occupy all of Southeast Asia, even aimed at Australia, China made it a colony. All the rest of progressive humanity in those days did not like it, we remember the denouement.
          Quote: NEXUS
          to go under mattresses and corporations.
          Japan was occupied after the war and could not decide under whom to lie down and under whom not. Therefore, they changed tactics and began not military, but cultural and technological expansion in the world. Therefore, half the world is watching anime, films about Godzilla and school drama, reads manga, plays Final Fantasy on Sony PS4, drives Toyota. By the way, this could well be called "go your own way in history."
          Quote: NEXUS
          we arm ourselves for protection
          Really? Did they say that to you at the General Staff? And strategic Tu-160 bombers, submarines with armored personnel carriers on board, Sarmatians, Yars, Poplars, Armata, Su-57 tanks, modernization of Orlan missile cruisers, etc. Is this all a defense weapon? Oh well. Stop talking nonsense here.
          Quote: NEXUS
          And returning to Japan ... sorry, against whom is she friends?
          The most likely adversary for Japan is China. Let's be honest.
          Quote: NEXUS
          and all this American wealth came from? It's all in the blood.
          Not one of the great and developed states in the history of mankind has become such without war and blood. America is unique here.
          Quote: NEXUS
          Until the age of 45, mattresses supplied Hitler with oil. And then what happened? Bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and from a strategic point of view, these cities were nothing. And after the mattress they proclaimed that it was precisely this bombing and their "glorious" victories in the Pacific Ocean and in the Atlantic that compelled Japan to capitulate. But in fact, the Kwantung Army under the nut, if sclerosis does not fail me, the USSR butchered for a month and only after that Japan surrendered.
          Why are you retelling the story to me now? We live in 2018, and not in 1945.
          Quote: NEXUS
          And let’s you not attract the desired to the real for the genital organs?
          Well, you suggest remembering the atomic bombing and hate the United States for it?
          Quote: Greenwood
          Yeah ... and eternal cry, give the Kuril Islands ...
          Here again. And what else do you know about Japan and you can tell something interesting, except for crimes during the war and modern moans about the Kuril Islands? Tell me, please.
          1. Krabik
            Krabik 8 January 2018 13: 33
            0
            Really? Did they say that to you at the General Staff? And strategic Tu-160 bombers, submarines with armored personnel carriers on board, Sarmatians, Yars, Poplars, Armata, Su-57 tanks, modernization of Orlan missile cruisers, etc. Is this all a defense weapon? Oh well. Stop talking nonsense here.


            The main "partner" in the Russian Federation is the USA, and the USA overseas.

            So for them we do strategists differently, they will iron us here with their Western allies, and they themselves will sit in warmth and comfort.

            And in general, the weapons of the Russian Federation sank very much after the devastation of the 90s, now you have to cave in under a changing world.
    4. opus
      opus 5 January 2018 18: 10
      +6
      At the same time, they are friends with those who once drowned in the blood of their city.

      belay
      Japan losses

      From 7 December 1941 to 2 September 1945, 1,27 million soldiers were killed, non-combat losses - 620 thousand, 140 thousand were injured, 85 thousand people were missing; civilian casualties - 380 thousand. Military spending - 56 billion US dollars in 1945 prices.

      Very good result
      Major battles = Pacific: China, Japan (Korea, South Sakhalin, Kuril Islands), USSR (Far East), Aleutian Islands, Mongolia, Hong Kong, French Indochina, Burma, Andaman Islands, Malaya, Singapore, Sarawak, Dutch East Indies, Sabah, Brunei, New Guinea, Papua, Solomon Islands, Philippines, Hawaiian Islands, Guam, Wake, Midway, Mariana Islands, Caroline Islands, Marshall Islands, Gilbert Islands.

      China losses

      From 1 September 1939 to 2 September 1945 in the war against Japan killed from 3 million to 3,75 million military and order 10 million civilians. Over the years of the war with Japan (from 1931 to 1945), China’s losses amounted, according to official Chinese statistics, to more than 35 million military and civilian.


      even more so:
      The decisions of the Yalta Conference were developed in Potsdam (July 17 - August 2 1945)


      Japan’s surrender terms were set forth in the Potsdam Declaration, signed 26 July 1945 governments of Great Britain, USA and China. However, the Japanese government refused to accept them.


      Shl.




      I consider it inevitable that Russia will become the greatest land power in the world after this war, because as a result of this war it will separate from two military powers - Japan and Germany, who throughout the life of our generation inflicted such heavy defeats on her. However, I hope that the "fraternal association" of the British Commonwealth of Nations and the United States, as well as sea and air power, can ensure good relations and a friendly balance between us and Russia, at least for the recovery period. What will happen next - the eye of a mere mortal is not visible, but I do not yet have sufficient knowledge of the celestial telescopes


      Winston Churchill. "The Second World War"
      1. sd68
        sd68 5 January 2018 22: 08
        0
        The decisions of the Cairo Conference were formulated in the Potsdam Declaration, not the Yalta.
        And the Japanese accepted them after the atomic bombings, on August 15 there was a statement by the emperor about surrender, in which the United States directly referred to the presence of atomic weapons.
        1. opus
          opus 5 January 2018 22: 59
          +4
          Quote: sd68
          The decisions of the Cairo Conference were formulated

          1. First or second Cairo?
          2. I'm talking about the Cairo conference or something that’s not gutaril!
          Quote: sd68
          were formulated in the Potsdam Declaration, not the Yalta Declaration.



          can you broadcast about the Cairo DECLARATION (and not about
          Quote: sd68
          Cairo Conference
          )
          I cite the Cairo Declaration, the publication in Chinese (so simply shorter, you know the hieroglyphs ... they are)

          squeeze
          Several military missions have agreed on future military operations against Japan. The three great allies expressed their determination to exert unrelenting pressure on their cruel enemies at sea, on land and in the air. This pressure is already increasing. Three great allies lead this war to stop and punish Japan’s aggression. They do not strive for any gains for themselves and have no thoughts about territorial expansion. Their goal is to deprive Japan of all the islands in the Pacific, which it seized or occupied since the beginning of World War 1914, and that all the territories that Japan seized from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa and Pescador Islands, were returned to the Republic of China. Japan will also be expelled from all other territories that it seized with the help of force and as a result of its greed. The aforementioned three great powers, remembering the enslaved people of Korea, decided that in due time Korea should become free and independent.

          Bearing in mind these goals, the three allies, in agreement with those of the United Nations who are at war with Japan, will continue to carry out the serious and lengthy operations necessary to ensure the unconditional surrender of Japan.

          and where is it here:

          Quote: sd68
          And the Japanese took them after the atomic bombings,

          what
          Shl. peculiar history is taught in Ukraine, very specifically
          1. sd68
            sd68 5 January 2018 23: 24
            0
            The principles on which Japan should have surrendered were formulated at the Cairo Conference of 1943, and not the Yalta Conference, expressed on the basis of the conference results on December 1, 1943 in the Cairo Declaration and are listed in an updated form in the Potsdam Declaration of 1945. What was reported to the Japanese. Che is not clear to you?
            The Japanese surrendered precisely because of the atomic bombing, as the emperor directly stated.
            Available or not reached?
            1. opus
              opus 5 January 2018 23: 44
              +5
              Quote: sd68
              The principles on which Japan should have surrendered were formulated at the XIUMX Cairo Conference of the Year,

              prize (pah) text "in the studio", why should the cotton be crushed in a mortar?
              Quote: sd68
              Che is not clear to you?

              higher cm
              Quote: sd68
              Available or not reached?

              Growth is tall for a long time.
              Facts, let's.

              I do not want to believe all sorts of unverified data, Schaub disgrace afterwards.
              The most ancient people, according to written sources, are Ukrainians. In the Ukrainian school textbook it is written that they are 140 thousands of years old.


              wassat
              I have at least brought something to prove that I’m right, you just ...
              mmm as it is tolerant to call it?
              1. Dalailama
                Dalailama 6 January 2018 00: 48
                +2
                Quote: opus
                how would you call it tolerant?

                Trotsky’s whistle.
              2. sd68
                sd68 6 January 2018 01: 35
                0
                I will not comment on your nonsense. find yourself the same nationalist, who is crushed by propaganda, and discuss with him what is written in some Ukrainian textbooks
              3. sd68
                sd68 6 January 2018 02: 31
                0
                The Cairo Declaration, adopted at the end of the Cairo Conference of 1943 (and not the Yalta 1945), as a key principle in relation to post-war Japan, established that Japan should return the occupied territories.
                "... They do not seek any conquests for themselves and do not have any thoughts about territorial expansion. Their goal is to deprive Japan of all the islands in the Pacific Ocean that it has captured or occupied since the beginning of the First World War of 1914 and that all territories that Japan has torn away from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa, and the Pescador Islands, are returned to the Republic of China, Japan will also be expelled from all other territories that it seized by force and as a result of its greed .... "
                The mandatory implementation of the Cairo Declaration was recorded in the Potsdam Declaration of 1945, which was the official conditions for the surrender of Japan.
                "We, the President of the United States, the President of the National Government of the Republic of China and the Prime Minister of Great Britain, representing hundreds of millions of our compatriots, have consulted and agreed that Japan should be given the opportunity to end this war ....
                5. The following are our conditions. ...
                8. The terms of the Cairo Declaration will be met ... "

                If it still doesn’t work, then the problem is not growth.

                as for the book, it is not used in Ukrainian schools
                so it happened?
            2. Dalailama
              Dalailama 6 January 2018 00: 53
              +1
              Didn’t their emperor say much, and so they later thought that the Russians had done this to them?
        2. Dalailama
          Dalailama 6 January 2018 01: 05
          +2
          Quote: sd68
          And the Japanese accepted them after the atomic bombings, on August 15 there was a statement by the emperor about surrender, in which the United States directly referred to the presence of atomic weapons.

          What did you think for a week?
          The emperor’s statement said all about one bomb which was used by the enemy who attacked them. No country names were given.
          The USSR has just attacked - the country of origin of the bomb is clear to every Japanese. especially since the lunatic emperor, looking in the mirror, amaterasu said so.
          Nobody touched the King of Romania, Stalin even handed him the order. But the Americans, being complete racists (also infantile offenders for Pearl Harbor), almost did not take the Japanese prisoners, and did not distinguish between military and civilian. Why did the Japanese prefer to die in a banzai attack and there were massive suicides in Okinawa.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 06: 37
            +5
            Quote: DalaiLama
            almost never captured the Japanese, and did not distinguish between military and civilian.

            Is that damn serious?
            Quote: DalaiLama
            and there were mass suicides in Okinawa.

            Says nothing good about the mental health of the Japanese of that period. If patients on Russian TV had brains, they should have thought about the sad fate of the Okinawans.
            Unfortunately, this is not worth counting on.
            1. Dalailama
              Dalailama 6 January 2018 08: 12
              +1
              Didn't you know?
              They knew long before. There was no point in surrendering to them.
          2. sd68
            sd68 6 January 2018 11: 30
            0
            Complete nonsense.
            The Japanese knew very well who bombed them.
            A special nonsense about the king of Romania.
            1. Dalailama
              Dalailama 6 January 2018 17: 20
              +1
              Nonsense that they thought for more than a week while trying to keep Manchuria and recapture Detachment 731?
              The Japanese elite only knew, and the few survivors who saw the B-29, if it was not lendlizovskim (somewhat in the USSR got).
              So they knew that those who were going there were warned not to touch on this topic and especially not to express condolences to the Japanese on the day of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, because it was almost impossible to convince anyone anyway.
              https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Михай_I
              On July 6, 1945, Mihai was awarded the Soviet Order of Victory (No. 16) —that made a turning point in the corresponding stage of the war (the withdrawal of Romania from the German allied camp markedly accelerated the defeat of the Hitler coalition).
      2. NEXUS
        NEXUS 6 January 2018 00: 13
        +3
        Quote: opus
        Japan losses
        From December 7, 1941 to September 2, 1945, 1,27 million military personnel were killed, non-combat losses - 620 thousand, 140 thousand were wounded, 85 thousand were missing. civilian casualties - 380 thousand people

        And how many after the atomic strike did the Japanese die over the next 25 years?
        1. Dalailama
          Dalailama 6 January 2018 00: 51
          +6
          they are many more than this figure died even from ordinary carpet bombing with lighters.
          nobody was going to capitulate after the atomic ones, it was a surprise that the same effect was achieved by only three bombers and not by three hundred or just a hundred as in Toyama on the same days.
        2. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 06: 37
          +6
          Quote: NEXUS
          And how many after the atomic strike did the Japanese die in the next 25 years?

          And how is this, excuse me, to consider? How much I want to draw, so much died.
        3. sd68
          sd68 6 January 2018 11: 41
          +1
          The ratio of civilian to military losses is one of the minimum among the main warring countries
          1. Dalailama
            Dalailama 6 January 2018 17: 23
            0
            On the contrary, and the most minimal, at least from the Axis countries.
        4. opus
          opus 6 January 2018 13: 54
          +3
          Quote: NEXUS
          And how many after the atomic strike did the Japanese die over the next 25 years?

          total number of victims per 6 August 2014 year made up 292 325 people.
          Hiroshima:
          Immediately, according to various estimates, thousands of people died from 70 to 100.

          292 325- 100 000 = 192 325

          Immediately after the bombing in the city there was not enough water, not only to extinguish the fires, but also to people who were dying of thirst. Therefore, even now the people of Hiroshima are very careful about water. And during the commemorative ceremony, a special rite "Kensui" (with Japanese - water presentation) is performed - it recalls the fires that swept the city, and the victims who asked for water. It is believed that after the death of the souls of the dead need water to alleviate suffering.


          Nagasaki:

          11.02 local time killed 70 thousand inhabitants of Nagasaki, and the city was virtually wiped off the face of the earth.

          In subsequent years, the list of victims of the catastrophe continued to grow due to the deaths from radiation sickness. This number is increasing every year, and the numbers are updated every year on August 9.
          According to the data in 2014 year, the number of victims of the bombing of Nagasaki has increased up to 165 409 people.
          165 409- 70 000 = 95 409
          =================================================
          ==
          The survivors of the bombing in Japan are called the special word "Hibakushya" ("man who suffered from the bombing").

          The first years after the tragedy, many Hibakus concealed that they survived the bombing and received a high proportion of radiation, because they were afraid of discrimination. Then they were not provided with material assistance and were denied treatment. It took 12 years beforeas the Japanese government passed a law according to which the treatment of victims of the bombing was free.




          on 2014: The total number of victims of the tragedy is over 450 thousand people, and the survivors still suffer from diseases caused by radiation exposure. According to the latest data, their number is 183 519 people.


          =================================
          War .... it's always like that
          / 12-year-old Ali Ismail Abbas - a victim of American bombing in Iraq - on examination at a hospital in Kuwait 16 April 2003 of the year /



          Quote: DalaiLama
          no one was going to capitulate after atomic

          Initially, the United States had the idea to drop 9 atomic bombs on rice fields or in the sea to achieve a psychological effect. to support amphibious operations planned on the Japanese islands at the end of September 1945. But in the end it was decided to use new weapons against densely populated cities.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 14: 51
            +3
            Quote: opus
            The United States originally had the idea of ​​dropping 9 atomic bombs.

            Initially, they did not have 9 devices. You retell conversations in smoking rooms, not GSh plans.
            Quote: opus
            Ali Ismail Abbas, 12, a victim of US bombing in Iraq, was examined at a hospital in Kuwait on April 16, 2003.

            Now living, it seems, in London.
            1. opus
              opus 6 January 2018 15: 06
              +1
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              You retell conversations in smoking rooms, and not the plans of the General Staff.

              Yes Yes Yes.
              transcript of a telephone conversation, JE Hull and LE Seeman [Seaman, sic], (August 13 1945 of the year), a copy in the National Security Archives, George Washington University, Washington, DC. NSA page on "The Atomic Bomb and the End of the World" War II "-
              https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/#_edn
              ref52


              From the transcript:

              S [eaman]: ... Then there will be another one the first part of September. Then there are three definite. In September, either the middle or the latter part.
              H [ull]: Now how many in October?
              S: Probably three in October.
              H: That's three definite, probably by the end of September; possibly three more by the end of October; making a total possibility of seven. That is the information I want.
              The fact is that it is a question. If you get the next one. That is up to November.
              If you’re still in the past?
              S: You have a chance to use it.
              H: They come out at a rate of three months.


              The main argument in favor of deciding on the use of the atomic bomb is that it would save the lives of Americans who would otherwise be lost in two earthly invasions on the main islands of the Japanese homeland. The first, against the southern island of Kyushu, was scheduled for November 1 (Operation Torch). The second, against the main island of Honshu, was to be held in the spring of 1946 of the year (Operation Coronet). Both operations were grouped under the codename Operation Downfall.

              Well I
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              I retell conversations in smoking rooms

              ?
              imagine your "authoritative" source!
              How weak?
              Then in ENCYCLOPÆDIA BRITANNICA
              https://www.britannica.com/


              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Now living, it seems, in London.

              and what does it change?
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 15: 31
                +1
                Quote: opus
                and what does it change?

                Nothing. But it gives the story a bulge, it seems to me.
                Quote: opus
                How weak?

                You see. The real story does not require justification. Justification requires an alternative.
                Quote: opus
                telephone transcript, JE Hull and LE Seeman

                Thanks for the source, come in handy.
                Sorry, but this source - what? Possible number of AB for winter?
                I think the phrase
                Quote: opus
                Initially, the United States had the idea to drop 9 atomic bombs on rice fields or in the sea to achieve a psychological effect.

                requires a slightly different rationale. There were one and a half people who could make such a decision — Truman and partly Marshall (who was somewhat pushed back in the 45th, EMNIP). The opinion of anyone else, including Nimitz and MacArthur, is purely informative here.
                (NSA, the opinion of all three, except Truman, was negative).
                As for Truman, he met the opinion that grandfather was not at all very familiar with the topic of nuclear weapons, and made a decision on the logic of "well, don't throw it away." This is only an opinion, of course.
                You have given an explanation to the public - a possible death of a soldier’s overdig during Downfall. What a fright during Downfall should have killed 4 times more soldiers. than in Europe, the NYA has never been explained.
                1. opus
                  opus 6 January 2018 16: 07
                  +3
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  Sorry, but this source - what? Possible number of AB for winter?

                  I, that carried nonsense about 9 charges by August 45?
                  Demanded by September, but the pace of production did not allow, see the transcript


                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  With what a fright during the Downfall, more soldiers would have died in 4 times.

                  It has been noted.
                  1. Marshall Hisaichi Terauti ordered, that all 100 000 Allied POWs be executed if the Americans invade.
                  2.in Washington has made a determination to fight literally to death. The Japanese saw suicide as an honorable alternative to surrender. The term they used was gyokusai, or, "shattering of the jewel."
                  In his “emergency declaration” of 1944, Prime Minister Hideki Tojo called for “100 million geekusai” and that the entire Japanese population should be ready to die.
                  Pacific Fleet Commander Admiral Chester Nimitz, whose staff conducted their own research, estimated US casualties at 49 000 victims for the first 30 days, including 5 000 at sea from Kamikaze attacks.

                  The total losses of the United States, according to Chief of Staff Admiral Leah, are estimated at 268 000 victims (35%). Former President Herbert Hoover sent a memorandum to President Truman and Secretary of War Stimson with "conservative" assessments in 500 000-1000000 of the dead. A study by William Shockley, an analyst for Secretary of War Henry Stimson, estimated the costs. on 1,7-4 a million American victims, including 400 000-800 000 dead.

                  General Douglas MacArthur was selected to command the forces of the US invasion for Operation Downpall, and his staff conducted their own research. In June, their calculations for the American victims would be 105 000 people after the 120 days of battle.
                  It was a bit different.lone (Operation Torch).

                  By the end of July, MacArthur’s intelligence chief, General Charles Willoughby, revised the estimate and predicted that American losses only on Kyushu (Operation Torch) will be 500 000, or ten times more than they were in Okinawa.
                  Europe, this is not Japan.
                  From the east, the most powerful USSR does not shake, in 30 there are no miles of the floating aircraft carrier of England, 5 also does not have columns, and there are no partisans.

                  May give food for thought (if there is something):
                  An indicator of government expectations for US losses is that 500 000 purple heart medals (awards for battle wounds) were manufactured in preparation for the operation Downfall.


                  Ken Burns -a veteran Marine pilot of the Okinawa the home islands:
                  By then, our sense of the strangeness of the Japanese opposition had become stronger. And I could imagine every farmer with his pitchfork coming at my guts; every pretty girl with a hand grenade strapped to her bottom, or something; that everyone would be an enemy.
                  1. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 16: 32
                    +2
                    Quote: opus
                    500 Purple Heart Medals

                    I am aware that all the purple hearts that are awarded to this day are made in the 45th.
                    Quote: opus
                    May give food for thought

                    Again. I know these calculations. They are mainly obtained by the formula of Okinawa x N.
                    Quote: opus
                    30 miles there is no floating aircraft carrier

                    Not 30 miles, you're right. Hokkaido is not covered very much with Okinawa, only Honshu in its entirety.
                    Quote: opus
                    5 columns too

                    But there is a 6th. Actually, she squeezed the surrender. The sixth column in such situations is, so to speak, the common sense team against the national team of patriotism.
                    Considering that the government was not actively considering capitulation, Yonai in a defiant manner resigned in April 1945, which caused the entire cabinet to fall. With two subsequent premieres, Prince Higashikuni Naruhiko and Kijuro Sidehara, Yonai continued to serve as Minister of the Navy

                    Quote: opus
                    as there are no partisans.

                    In Germany, who is partisan? Yodel?
                    1. opus
                      opus 6 January 2018 16: 54
                      +2
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      I'm aware that all purple hearts

                      Then it is not clear your perseverance, bordering on the donkey
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Basically they are obtained by the formula Okinawa x N.

                      torment me deep doubts about such arithmetic
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      From Okinawa, Hokkaido is not covered very much, only Honshu entirely.

                      It was not It would be concentrated there.
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      In Germany, who is partisan? Yodel?

                      speech about
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      With what a fright during the Downfall, more soldiers would have died in 4 times. than in Europe,

                      Germany, what is the whole of Europe?
                      Yes
                      Les Allemands de la Résistance: héros en terre étrangère // ARTE Histoire: Le magazine web d'ARTE dédié à l'histoire, 18 Janvier 2006
                      About three thousand took an active part in the armed resistance to the invaders. German
                      1. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 17: 09
                        +2
                        Quote: opus
                        Then your perseverance is not clear

                        Perseverance in what? What are your estimates sucked from the finger? I do not claim that they did not have a place.
                        Quote: opus
                        Second, it was apparent

                        Colleague, do you realize that you are re-telling American propaganda that has been dubbed with the purpose of backdating a dubious decision?
                        I cited above that the question of "giving up now or a little later" became the main issue of Japanese domestic politics even before the fall of Tojo's cabinet. So the question “Which is better, ChiN or Downfall” is initially a false dichotomy, like a plug in the eye or an act of sodomy.
                        Quote: opus
                        Germany, what is the whole of Europe?

                        But what, one Germany, half Germany, a quarter of Germany is not enough for Japan?
                        Quote: opus
                        about three thousand German

                        Wow!
          2. Dalailama
            Dalailama 6 January 2018 17: 38
            0
            Read old books, you can even American on this topic. 120+ in Hiroshima, 80-100 + in Nagasaki right away. Half a million due to radiation came out in a couple of weeks. Ordinary bombing over six months killed many times more, and no one was going to give up.
            There could not be any American landing operations in Japan. They barely managed Okinawa. Japanese reagents J8N-1 Kikka there would not even fly one way. In August 1945, reagents of a different plan could reach the continental United States on the I-400 in a couple of weeks if the USSR had not entered the war. They had folding wings for basing in rocky caves.
            What does the "sugary" Kuwaiti photo have to do with it? The Iraqis were almost halved by wars and sanctions.
            1. opus
              opus 7 January 2018 00: 58
              +5
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Perseverance in what? What are your estimates sucked from the finger?

              here Kosi't, I think, thanks to Comrade Smirnov and Co. (I can’t give more comments to the branch)
              Sucked is you... mmm, I don’t know where, with which cloaca)
              Game Over-I with UO (who are just pouring shit) I don’t want to talk and I can’t.
              mk

              and I can not understand for what I am banned.
              Threat.
              2 machine in 1991g I had a nine, vaz 21093 Night.
              Not "cherry".
              Therefore, I do not understand, see, the depth of your world view ...
              Would you like to Dubovitsky or NexusU or Eugene Damantsev (I can not vouch for the last name ... but utter nonsense, over whom he laughs, EVEN my summer junior 13)

              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Colleague, do you realize that you are re-telling American propaganda that has been dubbed with the purpose of backdating a dubious decision?

              I American propaganda -How (on the tail)
              I, personally, know American MERCANTILITY.
              m. I also “retell”, but with ARGUMENTS (LINKS).
              You (excuse me) -Perf in the puddle, not removing the pant (and let the slimy banned me, but it is), WITHOUT REFERENCE- NOTHING
              for this hi
              all this is dreary (to discuss with mutants)
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 7 January 2018 02: 02
                +1
                Quote: opus
                m. I also “retell”, but with ARGUMENTS (LINKS).

                And what, excuse me, are you retelling?

                Our "dialogue" began, it seems, with your statement
                Quote: opus
                Initially, the United States had the idea of ​​dropping 9 atomic bombs on rice fields or at sea in order to achieve a psychological effect to support the landing operations planned for the Japanese islands by the end of September 1945. But in the end, it was decided to use new weapons against densely populated cities.

                I doubted this statement. More precisely, it was not “the idea,” but that this idea belonged to people who were able to realize it.
                After which you yourself have denied it yourself
                Quote: opus
                I, that carried nonsense about 9 charges by August 45?
                Demanded by September, but the pace of production did not allow, see the transcript

                As for the goals, in one of the spring documents, according to your link (Notes on Initial Meeting of Target Committee, May 2, 1945), 17 cities (p. 15d) are mentioned and, as a sin, not a single rice field.

                Then you turned off the conversation about American ideas and began to substantiate MacArthur’s estimates of Downfall, which, of course, cannot be refuted (like any alternative story), and then completely slipped down on the toilet topic and personal insults.
              2. Dalailama
                Dalailama 7 January 2018 08: 24
                0
                Quote: opus
                and I can not understand for what I am banned.

                for having thrown three extra stars on his card, it’s written in the Troll profile
              3. Dalailama
                Dalailama 7 January 2018 08: 38
                0
                They do not understand. The Americans during their second inglorious raid (the first Doolittle raid in 1942) at the very end of the war, bombed and so bombed by strategists Kure at the maximum distance from Japan, received a bomb and fire on an aircraft carrier from a single Japanese piston aircraft, which arrived just as calmly as it left, and here they would have to deal next to the Japanese coast with the Japanese jet replicas of the Me-262. Never from the south or east to Japan would they climb.
                By the way, the Japanese I-400 advanced to Whittle atoll at the end of the war, stood there waiting for orders. One went further.
    5. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 22 May 2018 19: 04
      0
      By the way, sometimes this name is pronounced as "Shiranui", there was such a destroyer in World War II. And Japan is not, independent or sovereign if you want. And given China, this likelihood is increasing. The Chinese, after all, can remember that the Ryukyu Islands once belonged to them.
  2. Amurets
    Amurets 5 January 2018 06: 24
    +5
    The main question remains - when will the Japanese self-defense forces finally remove their “self-defense” from their name?
    The question is of course interesting, but the answer is banal: when the Japanese cancel the ninth article of the Constitution:
    "Chapter II. Refusal of war
    Article 9. Sincerely striving for international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounces war as the sovereign right of the nation, as well as the threat or use of armed force as a means of resolving international disputes.
    To achieve the goal specified in the previous paragraph, ground forces, naval and air forces, as well as other means of war, will never be created again. The right of a state to wage war is not recognized. "
    "https://www.nippon.com/en/features/h00146/
    1. Monarchist
      Monarchist 5 January 2018 10: 50
      +5
      Amurets, and you do not allow the idea that they will "put a bolt" on the 9th article or slightly edit it? I trust them a little and I think that they will throw some nasty
      1. Amurets
        Amurets 5 January 2018 11: 26
        +7
        Quote: Monarchist
        I trust them a little and I think that they will throw some nasty

        Nothing lasts forever and there have already been such attempts.
        “Discussions about the revision of Article Nine are mainly centered around the following topics: (1) whether the status of the Self-Defense Forces should be enshrined in the constitution; (2) whether the right to national self-defense should be clearly stated in the constitution; (3) whether the non-military nature of international cooperation, or international cooperation should include military force (in the UN collective operations to maintain security, etc.). "https://www.nippon.com/en/features/h00146/
        I also have little trust in the Japanese, especially since it is indicative of how the denunciation of the Neutrality Pact between the USSR and Japan of April 13, 1941, in 1945, affected Japan. Immediately stopped provocations on the eastern borders of the USSR.
  3. bald
    bald 5 January 2018 06: 31
    +2
    Not a bad destroyer - many were stamped, and the name is not bad. winked
    1. Spez
      Spez 5 January 2018 08: 16
      +2
      Yeah, beautiful "Siranukhi"))
      1. bald
        bald 5 January 2018 08: 36
        +2
        As you call, you’ll go. We also called the ship "Bedoy".
  4. corporal
    corporal 5 January 2018 06: 51
    +1
    - Combined electronic warfare station NOLQ-3, copied with the American “Slick-32”;
    ....... Actually, no one doubted the Japanese success in the field of microelectronics.

    But what could not overpower their electronic warfare, or are they satisfied with the American parameters?
    1. Amurets
      Amurets 5 January 2018 07: 56
      +8
      Quote: Corporal
      But what could not overpower their electronic warfare, or are they satisfied with the American parameters?

      The Japanese are trying to maximize the use of other people's development. I completely agree with O. Kaptsov and Balakin, but I would expand this quote: "Unlike the confusion and vacillations that reigned in the naval headquarters and admiralties of many countries (and especially in Russia), the Japanese made practically no mistakes, taking over from the allies - the English are all the most advanced - equipment, tactics, combat training, a basing and supply system - and in the shortest possible time created from scratch a modern fleet that dominates the Far Eastern waters. " This applies to all branches of knowledge. And by the way, the first in Asia to start circumventing licensing law and copying new weapons and military equipment at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries were the Japanese, then the Chinese followed in their wake. This is after WWII, the Japanese began to comply with international laws.
      1. KaPToC
        KaPToC 5 January 2018 08: 43
        +1
        Quote: Amurets
        the Japanese made practically no mistakes, taking from the British allies all the most advanced

        The most advanced in the modern Navy is the submarine nuclear missile carriers. How many do the Japanese have?
        1. Amurets
          Amurets 5 January 2018 09: 27
          15
          Quote: KaPToC
          Quote: Amurets
          the Japanese made practically no mistakes, taking from the British allies all the most advanced

          The most advanced in the modern Navy is the submarine nuclear missile carriers. How many do the Japanese have?

          Let's not juggle and troll! For the Japanese, building a nuclear submarine is not a problem. Moreover, the Westinghouse Electric company is still owned by the Japanese Toshiba although it was declared bankrupt. Moreover, all reactors for the American Navy were built by this company.
          Westinghouse Electric - Wikipedia
          "The American company Westinghouse Electric Company LLC (registered in Delaware) [19] is currently designing nuclear reactors owned by the Japanese Toshiba Corporation."
          Although I’m not a fan of WIKI, I can take something from there for general development.
          1. KaPToC
            KaPToC 5 January 2018 09: 39
            0
            Quote: Amurets
            For the Japanese, building a nuclear submarine is not a problem.

            This is not about shipbuilding issues, it's about the existing fleet, where did you see trolling?
            1. Amurets
              Amurets 5 January 2018 13: 10
              +5
              Quote: KaPToC
              This is not about shipbuilding issues, it's about the existing fleet

              You forget that in addition to the 9th article of the constitution expressly prohibiting having offensive weapons, Japan has another controller: the United States. And no matter how the Japanese jerk, it is the United States that decides what weapons Japan can have.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 06: 42
                +2
                Quote: Amurets
                And no matter how the Japanese jerk, it is the United States that decides what weapons Japan can have.

                Japan can have exactly the weapon that it wants.
                Until a certain point, it was considered reasonable to transfer the functions of the national army to the Americans. Now in the reasonableness of such a decision there is more and more doubt.
                There will be a need - both nuclear weapons and ICBMs will appear in the Japanese in a matter of months - they have long had reactors and solid-fuel missiles.
                1. Amurets
                  Amurets 6 January 2018 07: 03
                  +2
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  There will be a need - both the nuclear weapons and the ICBMs among the Japanese will appear in a matter of months - they have long had reactors and solid-fuel missiles

                  Who would doubt that? We write the same thing in different words.
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  Japan can have exactly the weapon that it wants.
                  But only when he changes the 9th article of the constitution.
                  1. Dalailama
                    Dalailama 6 January 2018 08: 43
                    +1
                    Quote: Amurets
                    But only when he changes the 9th article of the constitution.

                    This can be done retroactively. Or was it about the notorious legal guarantees? When did they even declare war on anyone?
                2. Dalailama
                  Dalailama 6 January 2018 08: 40
                  +1
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  There will be a need - both nuclear weapons and ICBMs will appear in the Japanese in a matter of months - they have long had reactors and solid-fuel missiles.

                  They are just waiting for this, someone owe me something.
          2. avt
            avt 5 January 2018 10: 20
            0
            Quote: Amurets
            Let's not juggle and troll!

            And at least let's work with a search engine, type ,, Mutsu ". Let even in
            Quote: Amurets
            Wikipedia
            But sweat-o-oh-oh, you will spread the thought on the branch for
            Quote: Amurets
            ] Although I’m not a fan of WIKI, but something for general development can be taken from there.
            Well, good luck to her. bully
            Quote: KaPToC
            The most advanced in the modern Navy is the submarine nuclear missile carriers. How many do the Japanese have?
            Not only . The highest achievement in shipbuilding in terms of solving complex engineering problems today is the ability to independently design and build SSBNs and a nuclear aircraft carrier. Russia, with nuclear surface shipbuilding, is one step behind USA.
            1. KaPToC
              KaPToC 5 January 2018 10: 29
              0
              Quote: avt
              The highest achievement in shipbuilding in terms of solving complex engineering problems today is the ability to independently design and build SSBNs and a nuclear aircraft carrier. Russia, with nuclear surface shipbuilding, is one step behind USA.

              However, we are talking about Japan, which also does not have a nuclear carrier.
            2. Amurets
              Amurets 5 January 2018 11: 48
              +4
              Quote: avt
              And at least let's work with a search engine, type ,, Mutsu ". Let even in

              Well, what did you mean by that? It was about whether the Japanese could build an SSBN? Yes they can, the link to the wiki was about Westinghouse Electric, to whom it currently belongs. And it belongs to the Japanese, which means that the Japanese may well build a nuclear power plant for their fleet. Only the 9th article of the constitution does not directly allow Japan to have offensive weapons.
              "Chapter II. Refusal of war
              Article 9. Sincerely striving for international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounces war as the sovereign right of the nation, as well as the threat or use of armed force as a means of resolving international disputes.

              To achieve the goal specified in the previous paragraph, ground forces, naval and air forces, as well as other means of war, will never be created again. The right of a state to wage war is not recognized. "
              1. avt
                avt 5 January 2018 13: 12
                0
                Quote: Amurets
                Well, what did you mean by that?

                Just what I said
                bully Again about
                Quote: Amurets
                nuclear power plant for its fleet.

                We look
                Quote: avt
                ,, Mutsu "

                At least in
                Quote: Amurets
                Although I’m not a fan of WIKI, I can take something from there for general development.

                Then we'll talk for the others
                Quote: Amurets
                Only the 9th article of the constitution does not directly allow Japan to have offensive weapons.
                "Chapter II. Refusal of war

                In the light of the imperishable
                I have a desire to buy a house, but I do not have the opportunity. I have the opportunity to buy a goat, but ... I have no desire. So let's drink so that our desires always coincide with our capabilities!
            3. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 06: 44
              +6
              Quote: avt
              The highest achievement in shipbuilding in terms of solving complex engineering problems

              The idea that Japan, which has shipbuilding, lags behind Russia in this, which has only legal proceedings, is not clear to everyone.
        2. Dart2027
          Dart2027 5 January 2018 10: 30
          0
          Quote: KaPToC
          The most advanced in the modern navy

          Actually, we are talking about the late 19th - early 20th centuries.
          1. KaPToC
            KaPToC 5 January 2018 10: 38
            +1
            Quote: Dart2027
            Actually, we are talking about the late 19th - early 20th centuries.

            An article about the modern fleet.
            1. Dart2027
              Dart2027 5 January 2018 11: 34
              0
              Quote: KaPToC
              An article about the modern fleet.

              Have you read it carefully?
              Instead of an afterword:
              The Japanese naval miracle of the beginning of the 20th century, which turned the Land of the Rising Sun into a superpower, became possible only thanks to the amazing rationalism of "Teikoku Kaigun" (Imperial Fleet). In contrast to the confusion and vacillation that prevailed in the naval headquarters and admiralty of many countries (and especially in Russia), the Japanese did not make almost a single mistake, having adopted from the British allies all the most advanced equipment, tactics, combat training, basing and supply systems , - and in the shortest possible time having created from scratch the modern fleet dominating in the Far Eastern waters.
              - from the book “The Triumphants of Tsushima. Armadillos of the Japanese Navy ”, S. Balakin

              An article about the modern fleet, but specifically this episode does not apply to him.
      2. max702
        max702 6 January 2018 01: 17
        +1
        Quote: Amurets
        after WWII, the Japanese began to comply with international laws.

        After they laid down under the USA the need to steal disappeared, they stripped money from them for any reason, and therefore they began to work honestly because it is a quitrent to the owner, here it’s impossible to steal and not pay .. They stupidly stopped asking when you would pay for this or that , but they simply took the necessary money .. Here they decided to work in white, because no one left a choice for them .. and not because they kind of woke up ..
  5. Vadim851
    Vadim851 5 January 2018 07: 18
    +3
    Great ship and the pace of construction is impressive simply.
  6. Odysseus
    Odysseus 5 January 2018 07: 43
    +4
    One can argue about the second surface fleet in the world. The second, in my opinion, is still with China. Japan has the third.
    But everything is beautifully and correctly written. Technically, their surface fleet is good.
    1. KaPToC
      KaPToC 5 January 2018 08: 55
      0
      Quote: Odyssey
      One can argue about the second surface fleet in the world. The second, in my opinion, is still with China. Japan has the third.

      1. US Navy: 3.378.758 tons
      2. Russian Navy: 927.120 tons
      3. Navy of the People's Liberation Army of China: 896.445 tons
      4. Japan Navy: 405.800 tons
      1. seos
        seos 5 January 2018 10: 16
        +3
        You can still bring the tonnage of the fleet of ancient Egypt .... and put it in the first place ...
        1. KaPToC
          KaPToC 5 January 2018 10: 31
          +1
          Quote: seos
          You can still bring the tonnage of the fleet of ancient Egypt .... and put it in the first place ...

          You exaggerate the tonnage of the ancient Egyptian fleet, but your idea is clear. In all modern fleets of the world, a high proportion of old ships.
      2. Nehist
        Nehist 5 January 2018 10: 37
        12
        Only the tonnage of the Russian Navy is spread out over 4 theater and the Japanese is under his nose. And there is nothing to oppose to our KTOF in the surface component. And if you look at what is really in order and not under repair and in reserve, then the tonnage of Russia can be safely reduced by a factor of two
        1. KaPToC
          KaPToC 5 January 2018 10: 44
          0
          Quote: Nehist
          And our KTOF to oppose him in the surface component of nothing

          This is not true of the Red Banner Pacific Fleet! Why should he stand alone against all Japanese forces? KTOF has one “Glory” and two “Antei” - against this the Japanese have nothing.
          1. cobalt
            cobalt 5 January 2018 12: 08
            +7
            Well, the Japanese have something to oppose, in addition to 26 destroyers, 4 helicopter destroyers, they have 16 submarines, of which 6 with extra-power aircraft, 9 frigates, 80 anti-submarine aircraft and 85 anti-submarine helicopters.
            1. KaPToC
              KaPToC 5 January 2018 12: 38
              0
              Quote: cobalt
              There are 16 submarines of which 6 are from VNEU

              A strange coincidence, in Russia there are 16 only diesel electric submarines in operation, not counting nuclear powered ships.
              Why is this a dumb listing? At least you would list in comparison with the Russian Navy.
              One aircraft carrier - in Japan - zero.
              Three missile cruisers - Japan has zero.
              Seven non-strategic submarine nuclear missile carriers - Japan has zero.
            2. Romario_Argo
              Romario_Argo 5 January 2018 17: 00
              +1
              Well, the Japanese have something to oppose, in addition to 26 destroyers, 4 helicopter destroyers, they have 16 submarines, of which 6 with extra-power aircraft, 9 frigates, 80 anti-submarine aircraft and 85 anti-submarine helicopters.

              The General Staff simulated different situations of the beginning of a hypothetical military conflict with Japan. After 1,5 hours, the Japanese Navy will cease to exist (!)
          2. Nehist
            Nehist 5 January 2018 12: 20
            +3
            This is just true. Since KTOF was created specifically for the confrontation between Japan and the US 7th Fleet, that at the time it successfully and did the creation of the created parity of forces on this theater
            1. KaPToC
              KaPToC 5 January 2018 12: 40
              0
              Quote: Nehist
              This is just true.

              We have different ideas about justice.
            2. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 06: 47
              +2
              Quote: Nehist
              Since KTOF was created specifically for the confrontation between Japan and the US 7th Fleet, that at the time it successfully and did the creation of the created parity of forces on this theater

              The parity of forces was limited to the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, NYA. Now you don’t even have to rely on this.
              1. Nehist
                Nehist 6 January 2018 07: 46
                +1
                Well, why only the Sea of ​​Okhotsk. You forgot about the big splinter in the form of 17 OPESK which, by its presence, delivered quite a bit of headache to “friends”
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 15: 00
                  +1
                  Quote: Nehist
                  You forgot about the big splinter in the form of 17 OPESK

                  A dozen submarines? Ten BOD and EM? If the nuclear submarines still had chances to fool around, then calling such a NK outfit “parity” is somewhat presumptuous, IMHO. Unless you consider "one anti-ship missile-mosquito-one aircraft carrier", as some particularly violent forum participants.
                  1. Nehist
                    Nehist 6 January 2018 23: 37
                    +2
                    That is, the almost constant presence of the KUG led by the cruiser didn’t create parity? And oh God, the USSR dared to operate in the Indian Ocean. The fact that sworn friends were forced to constantly keep 1-2 AUGs to parry 17 OPESK is very small. Well, as far as I remember, the USSR fleet was sharpened so that the NK provided for the deployment of nuclear submarines and submarines. So 17 OPESK delivered and strongly.
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 7 January 2018 00: 21
                      +2
                      Quote: Nehist
                      KUG led by the cruiser

                      Is cruiser Vladivostok the 1134th project? In the 80s? Against the AUG with Nimits and Tomcat / Hornets? They went astray.
                      In the 83rd appeared Tika, I recall. Parity, my ass.
                      Quote: Nehist
                      friends were forced to constantly keep

                      And would you let your AUG go to the needles?
                      Quote: Nehist
                      ensured the deployment of nuclear submarines and submarines

                      That is yes. And what would they do there, in the Indian Ocean?
                      By the way. Outside is the mid-80s. We have 670, 675, 659 submarines projects (with 670M - 3 pieces). How long they would live so beautiful in the 85th year is a question. There are already 30+ moose in the ranks.
                      1. Nehist
                        Nehist 7 January 2018 11: 42
                        0
                        I wonder where you divided Minsk? And Frunze who is now Lazarev. Well, and even Chervona Ukraine is now Varyag. All of them, at one time or another, before the closure of the naval base, headed 17 OPESK
                      2. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 7 January 2018 15: 03
                        +2
                        Quote: Nehist
                        I wonder where you divided Minsk? And Frunze who is now Lazarev. Well, and even Chervona Ukraine is now Varyag. All of them, at one time or another, before the closure of the naval base, headed 17 OPESK

                        Colleague, you seem to be the person in the material. Therefore, I do not really understand what you are counting on, pushing such a get along.
                        Not a single named ship, the NYA, has ever entered the 17th OPESK.
                        Minsk entered Kamran twice, in 82 and 84, it seems, for a month, during its BS.
                        Frunze was there, it seems, once, during the inter-naval transition of the 85th year.
                        Chervona Ukraine was admitted to the Navy in the spring of the 90s and entered Kamran for 3 days, October 22-24.10.1990, XNUMX, during, again, the transition from the World Cup to MOT.
          3. Nemesis
            Nemesis 5 January 2018 18: 30
            +1
            Because Japan will not wait for the Russian Federation to gather all its ships from 4 fleets into a fist and beat our forces in parts, as in 1904-05 ... It is time to bring the guilty tribunal to justice for the failure of the shipbuilding program in Russia. ..This Russia has NOTHING other than soviet antiques ... which does not get better with age ...
            1. KaPToC
              KaPToC 5 January 2018 18: 58
              +1
              Quote: Nemesis
              Because Japan will not wait for the Russian Federation to gather all its ships from 4 fleets into a fist and will beat our forces in parts, as in 1904-05 ...

              Our countries are comparable in population and it’s physically impossible to expect that our KTOF alone will surpass the entire Japanese fleet too presumptuously.
              1. Nemesis
                Nemesis 5 January 2018 20: 51
                0
                Have you read the nuclear doctrine of most countries ?! With the Pacific Fleet, everything is almost the same ... It is not necessary to have a fleet larger than the Japanese, but the fleet must be so strong that in the event of a war inflict unacceptably high losses on the Japanese fleet ... If the fleet is weak, the Russian fleet will be defeated, how it was defeated in 1904-05 ... If you continue to allow the Chubais to rob the Russian Federation, then soon there will be no money left for missile boats ... All the money of Russia can be withdrawn to London banks, without a trace, if you do not stop it ..
                1. KaPToC
                  KaPToC 5 January 2018 21: 09
                  +1
                  Quote: Nemesis
                  Have you read the nuclear doctrine of most countries ?!

                  Quote: Nemesis
                  inflict unacceptably high losses on the Japanese fleet ...

                  For this, underwater carriers of cruise missiles are enough, one for the entire Japanese fleet.
                  1. Nemesis
                    Nemesis 5 January 2018 21: 59
                    0
                    Not enough ... US ally of Japan recognizing Japan’s rights to the Kuril Islands. The United States will protect the airspace of Japan. Japan has diesel missile submarines with non-volatile installations, they are quiet, very quiet ... They are submarine fighters ... there are more submarines and fewer nuclear submarines ... If in the near future Russia will not restore order in the shipbuilding program, and along with it the Kuril Islands, Sakhalin, Kaliningrad and Novaya Zemlya .... Only the fleet can provide the transfer of reinforcements and ammunition if it is strong enough ... One is not a warrior in the field and at sea too ...
                    1. KaPToC
                      KaPToC 5 January 2018 23: 36
                      +1
                      Quote: Nemesis
                      The United States will protect the airspace of Japan.

                      What does the USA have to do with it? They compared the fleets of Japan and Russia, I’m not saying that Russia will equalize Fujiyama with the forces of the Strategic Missile Forces. I don’t involve strategic aviation, which Japan does not have as a class, to destroy the Japanese fleet. So you attract the strength of the Japanese fleet.
                      Quote: Nemesis
                      US ally of Japan recognizing Japan’s rights to the Kuril Islands.

                      The United States recognizes the outcome of World War II.
                      Quote: Nemesis
                      Japan has diesel missile submarines with non-volatile installations, they are quiet, very quiet ... These are fighter submarines ... there are more nuclear submarines and Russia has few new submarines ...

                      They are conditionally missile, submarpun flies 60-80 km, granites fly five hundred. And Russia has its own submarine hunters.
                      1. Nemesis
                        Nemesis 5 January 2018 23: 56
                        0
                        1) The United States only recognizes what is beneficial to them ... The United States refused to implement the decision of the Yalta Conference on the transfer of the USSR to Hokkaido ... The United States supports Japan’s territorial claims to the Russian Federation. It’s sad that this is news for you ... 2) The Kuril Islands, Sakhalin, Kaliningrad, Novaya Zemlya, this is not Vladimir Region ... The potential enemy’s air bases are closer to these targets than the main bases of the Russian Federation ... The enemy, including Japan has large landing forces, several aircraft carriers and a substantial number of missile destroyers to cover them ... Strategic aircraft, without covering fighters, are corpses, and to shoot cruise missiles from afar, in a country with good air defense systems, this is not for you to shoot Wahhabis in Syria in Syria ... 3) The Harpoon missile flies 280 km ... it was modernized ... And besides it there are long-range SM-3s, which are actually not only anti-aircraft, but multi-purpose ... 4) Japan has an allied agreement with the United States on joint defense, and NATO defense is not defense, but an attack on what lies bad ....
                      2. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 06: 51
                        +3
                        Quote: KaPToC
                        The United States recognizes the outcome of World War II.

                        They are not recognized by Russia / USSR. As a matter of fact, the absence of a peace treaty with Japan is the primary reason for discussing the Kuril / Sakhalin issue.
                        .
                        Quote: Nemesis
                        refused to implement the decision of the Yalta Conference on the transfer of the USSR to Hokkaido

                        Drug propaganda is prohibited in Russia.
                        Quote: Nemesis
                        US supports Japanese territorial claims against Russia

                        It seems I follow the news of Russophobia, but I have not heard this.
          4. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 06: 46
            +2
            Quote: KaPToC
            the Japanese have nothing against it.

            Yokosuka base?
        2. EvilLion
          EvilLion 5 January 2018 13: 05
          +1
          As if someone will only fight with ships.
        3. arkadiyssk
          arkadiyssk 5 January 2018 14: 41
          +2
          It is also spread on the underwater component in the form of two-hull nuclear submarines (the western school is single-hull boats) which, with comparable characteristics, have double displacement. So when comparing fleets, the Russian one can safely remove 150k tons. And yes, if it’s even more ancient to subtract, in general there will remain a sad sight ...
      3. Odysseus
        Odysseus 5 January 2018 13: 26
        +3
        Quote: KaPToC
        2. Russian Navy: 927.120 tons
        3. Navy of the People's Liberation Army of China: 896.445 tons
        4. Japan Navy: 405.800 tons

        What year is it and for which classes of ships?
        As for the surface fleet (and we are talking specifically about it), we have the only new ships for the entire post-Soviet time (this is already a quarter century) a class from a guard (frigate) and above it is 3 frigates 11356.
        In this situation, it is difficult to compare us with the surface fleet of Japan and the PRC (which, on the contrary, have almost no ships older than 1991).
        Another thing is the submarine fleet, here the situation is much better. But the author wrote specifically about the surface component.
        1. KaPToC
          KaPToC 5 January 2018 14: 10
          0
          Quote: Odyssey
          What year is it and for which classes of ships?

          Use google - as I did.
          Quote: Odyssey
          As for the surface

          Why should we count only the surface fleet?
          Quote: Odyssey
          then we have the only new ships for all post-Soviet time

          Why should we not take into account Soviet-built ships if they are in service?
          Quote: Odyssey
          3 frigates 11356.

          Frenates 11356 this is the watchman "Petrel" improved, their EMNIP 14 in the ranks of all.
          The Japanese have contraceptive strategic aviation and missile boats.
          1. Rakovor
            Rakovor 5 January 2018 15: 42
            +1
            This is where we have 14 petrels in the ranks, please list by name.
            1. KaPToC
              KaPToC 5 January 2018 21: 11
              0
              Quote: Rakovor
              This is where we have 14 petrels in the ranks, please list by name.

              Fourteen in the ranks of TOTAL, not only with us, apparently, we have offhand seven EMNIP
              1. Rakovor
                Rakovor 6 January 2018 11: 31
                +1
                We have offhand - 2 Ladny and Inquisitive on the Black Sea Fleet, + 3 new, still there are a couple of border guards in the Far East, but they do not carry shock whirling and PLO.
          2. Odysseus
            Odysseus 5 January 2018 22: 10
            +4
            Quote: KaPToC
            Why should we count only the surface fleet?

            Because we are discussing surface fleet . Reread, please, the author’s article on which I wrote my original message. It says, “the surface component of the Japanese self-defense MC deserves the second place in the world”.
            Now, re-read, please, my message- "You can argue about the world's second surface fleet."
            Quote: KaPToC
            Why should we not take into account Soviet-built ships if they are in service?

            Of course, they must be taken into account. The only problem is that they
            a) Obsolete. And this is not because they are bad, just a lot of time has passed.
            b) Often they are part of the fleet purely nominally, for example, out of 5 956 destroyers that are part of the fleet, only 2 can be used. And this is potentially.
            Quote: KaPToC
            Frenates 11356 this is the watchman "Petrel" improved, their EMNIP 14 in the ranks of all.

            Indeed, 11356 is a very distant descendant of 1135. Only 1135 we have left only 2, not 14. (Another 2 in the FSB patrol version). Yes, and then Ladny and Inquisitive pull orphans for the sake. Without the second three, 11356 BS will be naked.
            1. KaPToC
              KaPToC 5 January 2018 23: 39
              0
              Quote: Odyssey
              . It says- "the surface component of the Japanese self-defense MC deserves the second place in the world".

              It’s so convenient to take into account only what you want and reject what you don’t like.
              1. Odysseus
                Odysseus 6 January 2018 15: 21
                +2
                Quote: KaPToC
                It’s so convenient to take into account only what you want and reject what you don’t like.

                What are you, dear Kartos, about? The author of the article writes about the surface fleet, in response I write about the surface fleet, then you come and write about the fleet in general, and then tell me that I take into account what I want smile
                It’s you who are writing about what you want. I’m writing on the topic.
                Okay, we drove with whom it does not happen. About the submarine fleet, if you want, we will definitely talk in the relevant articles and topics.
  7. Golovan Jack
    Golovan Jack 5 January 2018 10: 30
    +6
    I do not like the Japanese. But like their engineering thought, their ships

    Inspired by:
    Quote: Anecdote. Japanese in the USSR:
    Everything you do with your hands is bad.
    Children. Only children ...
  8. Monarchist
    Monarchist 5 January 2018 10: 52
    +3
    Quote: bald
    As you call, you’ll go. We also called the ship "Bedoy".

    And the captain was called Vrungel, and the senior assistant was Lom.
  9. Monarchist
    Monarchist 5 January 2018 10: 54
    +2
    Quote: KaPToC
    Quote: Odyssey
    One can argue about the second surface fleet in the world. The second, in my opinion, is still with China. Japan has the third.

    1. US Navy: 3.378.758 tons
    2. Russian Navy: 927.120 tons
    3. Navy of the People's Liberation Army of China: 896.445 tons
    4. Japan Navy: 405.800 tons

    And what about the 404th
  10. Every
    Every 5 January 2018 12: 59
    +5
    Need to be taken for the fact that you can finish in one day. Tomorrow will also be only one day.


    Who would say this to our idiots from the Moscow Region?
    And you just hear about plans and promising projects, but in fact we have ships of the coastal zone with a displacement of less than 1000 tons and practically no air defense.
  11. EvilLion
    EvilLion 5 January 2018 13: 04
    +2
    There is money, there is access to American technology, there are no special needs for the ground forces, and destroyers can also be riveted. We must understand that the Japanese are now much more important to think not about the islands, but about the fact that they are becoming extinct, and one of the first in the world in terms of speed.
    1. Greenwood
      Greenwood 5 January 2018 13: 58
      +5
      Quote: EvilLion
      they are becoming extinct, and among the first in the world in speed.
      Well, here it’s not ships that need to be built, but something else to do. wassat True, the Japanese with THIS, unlike the ships, are all bad.
      Girls are no longer needed. fellow
    2. Korax71
      Korax71 5 January 2018 14: 40
      12
      A country that stands on a piece of stone without its own resources is able to build its own fleet. Meanwhile, a country that occupies a third of the land, has the richest bowels, is not able to keep up with the pace of the construction of the fleet. You can still compare GDP, living standards and much more .but I’m only afraid these comparisons are not in our favor. We have a distinctive feature of a national character. We always try to justify ourselves, they have money, they help them, they don’t need ground troops. Question? Who prevented us from developing ?? ? Especially since the inheritance was not sour?
      1. KaPToC
        KaPToC 5 January 2018 18: 25
        +1
        Quote: Korax71
        A country that stands on a piece of stone, not having its own resources, is able to build its fleet. Meanwhile, a country that occupies a third of the land, has the richest bowels, is not able to keep up

        Length of railways
        Россия 175236
        Japan 27268
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 06: 58
          +4
          Quote: KaPToC
          Length of railways
          Россия 175236
          Japan 27268

          Of which high-speed:
          Japan - approx. 3000 km.
          Russia - 0 (zero) km. Peregrine Falcon does NOT go on a high speed line.
          1. KaPToC
            KaPToC 6 January 2018 12: 06
            +1
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Of which high-speed:

            Conventional railways are important for the economy - they carry goods. And given our distances, a high-speed railway will not help us.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 15: 02
              +2
              Quote: KaPToC
              Conventional railways are important to the economy

              Is it you that Japan lacks railways or what? There, by the way, NYA, the main way to transport goods is coastal shipping.
              1. KaPToC
                KaPToC 6 January 2018 16: 14
                0
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                Is it you that Japan lacks railways or what?

                Are there not enough ships in Russia?
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                There, by the way, NYA, the main way to transport goods is coastal shipping.

                It would be foolish to expect that continental Russia at sea would surpass the purely maritime state of Japan. And to conclude on the basis that our KTOF is smaller than the Japanese Navy, to conclude that Russia is backward is somewhat presumptuous, do not you?
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 16: 34
                  +1
                  Quote: KaPToC
                  Are there not enough ships in Russia?

                  For what?
                  Quote: KaPToC
                  that our KTOF is smaller than the Japanese Navy, to conclude that Russia’s backwardness is somewhat arrogant, do not you?

                  On TO TVD? If you are not ready to use WMD? I do not find.
                  1. KaPToC
                    KaPToC 6 January 2018 16: 42
                    0
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    I do not find.

                    Look better - you will find.
      2. max702
        max702 6 January 2018 10: 52
        +1
        Quote: Korax71
        we have a distinctive feature of a national character. we always try to justify ourselves, they have money, they help them, they don’t need ground troops. Question? Who prevented us from developing ??? especially since the inheritance was not sour?

        For some reason, everyone forgets about such an ESSENTIAL detail. The Western world has long been GLOBAL and, in essence, it is ONE state! What is the difference that Japan or Germany have no natural resources? Australia, the USA, Canada, Norway and others have them .. these countries actually consist in one economic, political, and military alliance and we need to look at their successes in a complex without separating them .. By the way, this community of countries was just created for confrontation with the USSR .. That’s why the bourgeois tried to keep a high standard of living so that it was no worse than in the USSR, now there is no need for this, and what do we see? And the fact that all over the world it’s leading to a comic crisis ..
      3. EvilLion
        EvilLion 9 January 2018 08: 11
        +1
        To begin with, Russia occupies the 1 / 7 part of the land. We will end up with that more than half of this territory is simply unsuitable for life, and all your wealth from the bowels must be brought down seven sweats.

        However, for those who have problems even with arithmetic, it is useless to explain something.

        And Japan is not at all on a piece of stone; living there is very convenient, warm, humid, the fish around, however, shakes regularly.
        1. max702
          max702 9 January 2018 12: 22
          0
          Quote: EvilLion
          However, for those who have problems even with arithmetic, it is useless to explain something.

          Here I am about that ... We have a population of 140 million. the bourgeoisie has 1.5 billion ... Climatic, technical, scientific resources are in approximately the same proportions, and the fact that we manage to compete with them (and the very existence of our country confirms this), although losing in some areas, this is MIRACLE in itself .. which baffles our "partners" ..
  12. sds127
    sds127 5 January 2018 16: 39
    +1
    distracting from politics, TTX, analysts, beautiful ships. simply beautiful.
  13. Romario_Argo
    Romario_Argo 5 January 2018 16: 55
    +1
    Oleg has a strange article format, but I really liked it.
  14. Curious
    Curious 5 January 2018 17: 01
    +6
    “Most young Japanese, according to polls, think that Russia dropped nuclear bombs on them. Therefore, they sincerely love America and sincerely do not like Russians.”
    How much can this nonsense be repeated. To get started, visit Japan and chat with the Japanese.
    Come to the museums of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which are included in the compulsory school curriculum, watch exhibits and listen to what the guides say.
    As for the polls, according to a recent poll conducted by Populus in Japan for Sputnik, an international news agency and radio, as part of the Sputnik. Opinions project, the majority of Japanese respondents (61%) believe that the United States should apologize for the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. At the same time, 74% of respondents believe that these bombings cannot be justified by the war, as many civilians died.
    You can also visit the capital of Ehime prefecture - Matsuyami and go to the Russian cemetery, where the sailors who were captured in 1904 are buried, look at the Japanese schoolchildren cleaning up the territory, listen to what the Japanese say about Russians.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 07: 00
      +3
      Quote: Curious
      the majority of Japanese respondents (61%) believe that the United States should apologize for the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. At the same time, 74% of respondents believe that these bombings cannot be justified by the war, as many civilians died.

      Which is not too good news for Russia, since it is part of the general trend towards the remilitarization of Japanese society. The desire of the Japanese themselves to apologize to the Koreans, Chinese and other residents of the sphere of co-prosperity, the Japanese governments hushed up in the 60s, EMNIP.
  15. Old
    Old 5 January 2018 17: 06
    +7
    Good article!
    10 years and second place after the usa! But if you count the yachts and castles of our effective managers - the Japanese should immediately make hara-kiri!
    1. LASVEGAS
      LASVEGAS 5 January 2018 18: 14
      +4
      Japan is in fourth place after China. I did not understand another: in the article, at the very end there is such a thing (the leader among developed countries is Russia, with an indicator of over 5% (GDP)), THIS IS ABOUT MILITARY COSTS. The leader in percentage does not mean, unfortunately, that the LEADER is in absolute money.
      1. Arikkhab
        Arikkhab 8 January 2018 16: 34
        0
        - Actually, the Russian Federation is in 4th place (in% of GDP - after the Saudis, Israel, the UAE)
  16. Nemesis
    Nemesis 5 January 2018 18: 14
    0
    And in Russia, we are witnessing the failure of the shipbuilding program. Isn’t it time to start shooting the guilty, or there’s too much mess, and the perpetrators are transferred to other posts instead of punishment, and often with an increase ?!
  17. NF68
    NF68 5 January 2018 18: 53
    +1
    + + + + + + + + + +
  18. looker-on
    looker-on 5 January 2018 20: 02
    +2
    Quote: Nikolai Fedorov
    Most young Japanese, according to polls, think that Russia dropped nuclear bombs on them. Therefore, they sincerely love America and sincerely do not like Russians.



    Is it possible to source a survey? Very suspicious of such sayings, I apologize
    1. sd68
      sd68 5 January 2018 22: 44
      0
      source, but not polling :)
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cf_AkpezhyU
      How many sources in Runet are interested in? TV will not lie! :)
    2. sd68
      sd68 5 January 2018 22: 55
      0
      oh, another source :)
      http://senseisekai.livejournal.com/2319566.html
      about how Japanese schoolchildren are deceiving and who opened their eyes to it :)
      And here is the source of the survey, but it’s even cooler
      "For 3 years, he interviewed more than 10'000 young Japanese from 16 to 25 years old. (Who does not know. For sociological surveys - the number of more than 5 thousand is already. In principle, a lot). And the most offensive is that they motivated their knowledge - only ! movies !!!
      1) More than 80% of respondents said that the USSR dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the Americans valiantly helped the poor Japanese .... "
      https://pikabu.ru/story/vot_yeto_uzhe_realno_grus
      tno_1038536
      Believe it or not:)
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 07: 07
        +2
        Quote: sd68
        https://pikabu.ru/

        An anonymous acquaintance of the anonymous pandaaff with pickaboo - is it now called the "source"?
    3. Dalailama
      Dalailama 6 January 2018 04: 31
      0
      Most young people thought so until 2008, and not only young people, and most of them are overwhelming.
    4. Dalailama
      Dalailama 6 January 2018 04: 59
      0
      photo of the Japanese textbook at the first link for 2015
  19. looker-on
    looker-on 5 January 2018 20: 06
    +5
    Quote: KaPToC
    Quote: cobalt
    There are 16 submarines of which 6 are from VNEU

    A strange coincidence, in Russia there are 16 only diesel electric submarines in operation, not counting nuclear powered ships.
    Why is this a dumb listing? At least you would list in comparison with the Russian Navy.
    One aircraft carrier - in Japan - zero.
    Three missile cruisers - Japan has zero.
    Seven non-strategic submarine nuclear missile carriers - Japan has zero.


    Pffff. Japan has 4 aircraft carriers. Russia has -1 incapacitated (loss of 10% of aircraft in the last campaign)

    The destroyers in the above number do not bother you? Or do you still think that the cruiser is cooler than the destroyer because of the size?

    By submarines - and where is Japan going to drive atomic submarines? And why?

    And you read about the landing ships of Japan. It will become sad because Sakhalin, etc., we lose in an instant.
  20. Wolka
    Wolka 5 January 2018 20: 23
    +1
    Japanese militarism, however, is reborn, the Yankees will regret it ...
    1. KaPToC
      KaPToC 5 January 2018 21: 14
      0
      Quote: Volka
      Japanese militarism, however, is reborn, the Yankees will regret it ...

      The American group in Japan is stronger than all self-defense forces in Japan.
  21. looker-on
    looker-on 5 January 2018 22: 50
    +1
    Quote: sd68
    source, but not polling :)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cf_AkpezhyU
    How many sources in Runet are interested in? TV will not lie! :)


    I don’t care about RuNet. And even the Internet. My family has not had a TV for 5 years. There is a huge TV for watching documentaries and movies. And here are such sites for trying to understand what and how in the army and in the world. Your source about nothing-litter
    1. sd68
      sd68 6 January 2018 00: 28
      0
      happy for you
      this joke was an illustration of the fact that about 60 percent is not the fiction of the writer.
      just runet with such assurances overwhelmed.
    2. Dalailama
      Dalailama 6 January 2018 03: 31
      0
      You can google, only a survey db no later than mid-2008, they already had the Internet for about 10 years and they still believed that the USSR. Now they still don’t like it, because it happened so, and because they interfered with the former imperial greatness.
      Most Europeans now believe that they were freed from fascism by defeating Germany not the USSR. The longest reality was held in France because mattress-bombs bombed her on a par with the Germans.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 07: 10
        +3
        Quote: DalaiLama
        Most Europeans now believe that they were freed from fascism by defeating Germany not the USSR

        In vain you slander Comrade Stalin. Well, but "liberation" is definitely not for him.
        1. Dalailama
          Dalailama 6 January 2018 08: 13
          +1
          Comrade Stalin slander you. You will go to the supermarket for the "malavita".
  22. sd68
    sd68 6 January 2018 01: 47
    0
    Quote: Nemesis
    US refused to implement the decision of the Yalta Conference on the transfer of the USSR to Hokkaido

    I did not find anything about the transfer of Hokkaido to the USSR.
    http://militera.lib.ru/docs/da/confww2/index.html
    http://www.hist.msu.ru/ER/Etext/War_Conf/krim.htm
    http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/FRUS/FRU
    S-idx? Type = article & did = FRUS.FRUS1945.I0012 & am
    p; id = FRUS.FRUS1945 & isize = M
    Do not tell me where to look?
    The basis for the requirements for surrender of Japan were the decisions of the Cairo Conference, drawn up in the Cairo Declaration, in particular
    "The goal of the aforementioned allied powers is to deprive Japan of all the islands in the Pacific Ocean that it has occupied or occupied since the beginning of the First World War of 1914, and that all territories that Japan has torn away from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa and the Pescador Islands, were returned to the Republic of China.
    "Japan must also be expelled from all other territories captured by it through violence and greed."
    Actually, this statement was fully consistent with the Atlantic Charter.
    Hokkaido clearly did not belong to "other territories captured by it due to violence and greed" (by the way, even the Kuril Islands did not fit this definition)
    1. Dalailama
      Dalailama 6 January 2018 02: 34
      +1
      Then google "plans for the post-war division of Japan," she generally shared from conference to conference along the same lines as Korea, which then was part of it under international law.
      1. sd68
        sd68 6 January 2018 02: 54
        0
        I am not very interested in reading your nonsense.
        The Potsdam Declaration, the official conditions for the surrender of Japan, clearly states that it is the Cairo Declaration that must be implemented, while Hokkaido is clearly not subject to transfer to the USSR.
        If you are able to answer the question posed by me above, give me where in the materials of the Yalta Conference it is written about the US obligation to transfer Hokkaido to the USSR
        And if you can’t, don’t get stuck in someone else’s dialogue.
        1. Dalailama
          Dalailama 6 January 2018 03: 05
          0
          It is clear that you are more fun to write them.
          The Potsdam Declaration states that Japan should the conditions accepted on it are fulfilled.
          In google about "plans for the post-war division of Japan", or "Svidomo."
        2. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 07: 12
          +3
          Quote: sd68
          And if you can’t, don’t get stuck in someone else’s dialogue.

          I venture to interfere in someone else's dialogue.
          Unfortunately, the DalaiLama user is a fierce adversary of any proofs, and in general of any content. It is wiser to ignore it.
          1. Dalailama
            Dalailama 6 January 2018 08: 14
            +1
            Quote: DalaiLama
            How would these Shermans end up there?

            You have not answered.
            Quote: DalaiLama
            In google about "plans for the post-war division of Japan", or "Svidomo."

            You can’t go to Google.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 15: 09
              0
              Quote: DalaiLama
              You have not answered.

              But why?
              Shermans in Okinawa, summer 45

              Pershing in the same place.

              I see no reason to delve into your chants.
              1. Dalailama
                Dalailama 6 January 2018 18: 03
                +1
                Then, that Okinawa is far from Japan, Japanese planes flew there only one way.
                The aircraft carrier Hornet, who did not wait for his planes to return and shamefully escaped from the scene of the crime, is drowning in a sudden place after Dullittle’s raid, along with all your Pershing and Sherman.

                Now delve into. Instead of posting your mattress agitation.
                You still forgot the photo of Ivo Jim where the Americans hoisted the flag with the six of them.
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 6 January 2018 18: 11
                  +2
                  Quote: DalaiLama
                  not waiting for his planes back

                  Mitchells?
                  Quote: DalaiLama
                  drowning in a sudden place

                  Have Santa Cruz? It was flooded with the heroic joint efforts of the destroyers Kincaid and Kondo.
                  Quote: DalaiLama
                  along with all your pershing and shermans.

                  Pershing on an aircraft carrier in the 42nd? Dear friend, the degree of your shamelessness in your argument goes even beyond the very broad framework generally accepted in the ax.
                  1. Dalailama
                    Dalailama 6 January 2018 19: 18
                    0
                    Do not pretend, you understand everything.
                    Why were the Mitchells used?
                    What happened to him before that the Hornet had to leave the Japanese to this fun?
                    Ships of about the same displacement were used to transport tanks and infantry by sea.
          2. sd68
            sd68 9 January 2018 16: 39
            0
            just stubborn, facts are not for him
            1. Dalailama
              Dalailama 10 January 2018 09: 43
              0
              Then to you, as a particularly such, questions on the facts that were in the comment above.
              regarding the plans for the post-war division of Japan, Google is still in the picture.
  23. Kp0t
    Kp0t 6 January 2018 12: 28
    0
    and how many perks does the commander have?
  24. k_ply
    k_ply 6 January 2018 14: 50
    +3
    Complementing the Akizuki class (DD-115 - 118) with a new subgroup of two EsMintsy (Asahi, Shiranukhi), thereby bringing the series of the latest purebred Japanese escort ships equipped with radar with AFAR to 6 units. Prior to this, the Japanese built original versions of the American EsM "Orly Burke" ...
    The breakthrough occurred in 1990, when, with great difficulties, technical documentation was handed over to the destroyer Arly Burke and the Aegis naval air defense system. Having received the technology, the Japanese immediately built 4 first-class destroyers of the Congo type. A name unrelated to the African state. “Congo” - in honor of the legendary battlecruiser, a participant in both world wars, in translation - “indestructible”.
    From their American "twins", the Japanese Aegis are distinguished by a truss mast and more bulky superstructure, which houses the flagship command post.

    In 2020-21, it is planned to put into the Japanese fleet 2 new “Atago” improved EsMs (project 27DD), 2 Atago class EsM DDG-177 / -178 commissioned in 2007-2009, all with the same Aigis ASBU Mk7 mod 6. Two new Japanese Atomic Project ESDs 27DD Improved Atago (2020-2021) will replace 2 Hatakaze DDG-171 / -172 EsMs with a single Tartar air defense system (Standard SAM) -1MR "RIM-66), commissioned in 1986-1988.

    Already in service with the BIUS "Aegis" Mk7:
    - 2 EsM DDG-177 / -178, type "Atago", 2007-2009.
    - 4 EsM DDG-173 - 176, type "Congo", 1993-98., Modernized in 2006-2011.

    Aegis in other countries:
    - 3 South Korean EsM DDG-991 - 993, project KDX-III, transferred to the fleet in 2008-2012.
    - 5 (planned 6) Spanish FR F101-F105, type "Alvaro de Bazan" (project F100), 2002-2012.
    - In Australia, a series of 3 EsMs of the SEA 4000 project is being built (Hobart, Brisbane and Sydney), of the same type with the Spanish ships, 1917-2020. - commissioning.
    - 5 Norwegian Fr F310-F314 type "Fridtjof Nansen", 2006-2011. Unlike the above ships, which mainly repeat the architecture of the Orly Burke type EsM, here the Mk.41 UVP with a minimum number of cells (8), and the ESSM RIM-162 missiles are used.
    1. Comrade Kim
      Comrade Kim 6 January 2018 16: 34
      0
      Sad plans for partners.
      And how can we fend off such a massive buildup of ships with AFARs.
  25. anosoff
    anosoff 6 January 2018 17: 12
    +1
    So how many modern destroyers do the Japanese have? request It turns out almost 60 ?! belay
  26. First iron-faced
    First iron-faced 6 January 2018 17: 34
    +1
    The naval composition of the Japanese fleet

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Japa
    n_Maritime_Self-Defense_Force_ships
  27. First iron-faced
    First iron-faced 6 January 2018 18: 29
    +3
    Quote: Dart2027
    Japan is actually occupied ...

    Maybe someone is interested, "sickly" such, when compared with the Self-Defense Forces of Japan, the occupying forces (ground, as usual), and basically in Okinawa. Not a single combat unit, only the headquarters and units of the combat * and rear support (TO) ...
    SV:
    - Headquarters and 35th baht of the 10th TO group
    MP:
    - headquarters and staff battalion of the 3rd MP division (part of the division’s forces in Hawaii, including the 3rd regiment of the MP)
    - headquarters of the 4th regiment of the MP (three of its baht were introduced into the regiments of the 1st division of the MP Pacific Fleet)
    - 1st baht amphibian armored personnel carrier (AAV-7A1) *
    - 3rd reconnaissance battalion MP *
    - 3rd group TO MP
    - 12th artillery regiment MP (1st and 3rd artillery divisions) *
    - Training center MP DB in the jungle
    1. Dart2027
      Dart2027 6 January 2018 22: 18
      0
      Quote: First Iron-sided
      Not a single combat unit

      ... At present, according to the data for 1997-1996. in Japan, at 94 bases, there are about 47 US soldiers and officers, mainly from the Navy and Air Force. Formally, the purpose of their stay is to ensure "peace and stability" in the Far East, but in reality, to maintain military control in the Asia-Pacific region ...
      http://pentagonus.ru/publ/voennoe_prisutstvie_ssh
      a_v_japonii_problema_amerikanskikh_baz_na_okinave
      / 19-1-0-1258
      Plus, the US 7th Fleet is based there.
      1. First iron-faced
        First iron-faced 7 January 2018 00: 12
        +2
        You should not palm off a pentagonus with outdated articles ...
        (Materials from the monograph "Security Problems in Asia"
        (M., Europeum Press " 2001)

        For example (again, about ground forces with a permanent deployment in the context of occupation or a “springboard” for defensive forces, it’s like someone), while only the 3rd expeditionary division of the MP, based on Okinawa, was at least a third more powerful the combat personnel, I think, in the d.s. it is not necessary to remind of a larger number of units and to list its units and subunits.
        By the way, when the 5th fleet did not exist yet (1995), it was the 7th fleet that performed the tasks in the Indian Ocean (including the Persian Gulf).
        1. Dart2027
          Dart2027 7 January 2018 06: 55
          0
          Quote: First Iron-sided
          You should not palm off a pentagonus with outdated articles

          Where are your sources?
          Quote: First Iron-sided
          By the way, when the 5th fleet was not yet (1995), then the tasks in the Indian Ocean

          Nevertheless, its base is precisely Japan.
          1. First iron-faced
            First iron-faced 7 January 2018 17: 32
            +1
            Quote: Dart2027
            Where are your sources?

            One link has already been cited above according to the topic of the article, but you, in my opinion, have wandered into the wrong section of the site with messages that are not in the subject and without any military-informative character. Does the communication vacuum torment?
            And, if not stupid, and most importantly, if you are really interested in the composition of the ground forces (which I doubt), we would have found it a long time ago.
            Quote: Dart2027
            Nevertheless, its base is precisely Japan.

            Obviously for the occupation, the function is especially characteristic of the fleet, huh ?!
            Actually, it’s the headquarters of the 7th Fleet (Operational, not the Occupation), but there is a network of naval and military bases other than those located in Japan, Guam and South Korea. And where is he to be based (Hawaii is also removed in the area of ​​responsibility of the 3rd Fleet), if the APR is the area of ​​its operational mission.
            The fleet may be good for blockading with the subsequent invasion, and even then not in this case.
            Yes, and if the nonsense in the form of occupation directly by the forces of the fleet fell off, then goodbye.
            1. Dart2027
              Dart2027 7 January 2018 20: 53
              0
              Quote: First Iron-sided
              One link has already been cited above according to the topic of the article,

              When you reply to someone’s post and want to provide a link, you need to insert it there, otherwise it’s a bit long to run through a hundred comments. So where specifically said that the United States is reducing its contingent? I only find about 47000 people.
              Quote: First Iron-sided
              The fleet may be good for blockading with the subsequent invasion, and even then not in this case.
              In fact, the modern ships of the US Navy are focused on shooting along the coast.
              Quote: First Iron-sided
              Yes, and if the nonsense in the form of occupation directly by the forces of the fleet fell off, then goodbye.
              That is, there are no objections?
  28. Sergeant71
    Sergeant71 6 January 2018 21: 43
    +3
    Quote: sabotage
    Russia climbed into Syria to blackmail the Turks with the Turkish stream. We wanted 4 pipes of 15 billion each, and let the Turks bargain, and so they decided to bomb the Turkomans a bit so that the Turks become more accommodating. But the Turks, do not be fools, shot down the SU-24, got off with tomatoes, got a loan for C400, nuclear power plants, squeezed a couple of Gazprom subsidiaries and allowed to pull one pipe. With good behavior will be allowed to pull the second. So the Ukrainians benefit here, which in 2019 will come to humiliate Gazprom on their terms. The Turks, who get nishtyaks at the expense of the budget of the Russian Federation and Gazprom, benefit here.

    You have good grass, bro ... wassat Fence .... wassat
  29. Dart2027
    Dart2027 7 January 2018 07: 08
    0
    Quote: sabotage
    But why climb into Syria? Did the fate of the Syrian people worry? Has terrorism begun to bother? So the Qatari partners shot down a plane from Egypt, but not a single bomb fell on them, only a 19% stake in Rosneft nearly crushed
    Qatar is a US vassal, further explain?
    Quote: sabotage
    For some reason, it seems that we have some special relations with Syria. Once in the Soviet era, there was some special relationship. Now this is not.
    There is nothing permanent in politics, by the way, now there are military bases and large investments there.
    Quote: sabotage
    "For us, of course, there is no direct threat from ISIS," Putin said during the "direct line."

    Quote: sabotage
    But only the process of the Turkish stream suddenly stopped and the plane exploded, and terrorism bothered, and Assad promptly threw ours, and Isil bothered, but mostly the moderate were bombed: Idlib, Aleppo, Hama. And they are almost all sponsored by the Turks.
    Military bases for aviation are not being built in five minutes, so training began much earlier.
    Quote: sabotage
    Russia, like any capitalist country, defends the interests of big capital, both because of the oligarchic structure, and because this large capital commands entire sectors of the economy, and without these sectors it can be very bad.
    Yes, yes, yes, they always talk about this when they want the Russian Federation to give up all its foreign policy interests, as under Gorbachev.
    Quote: sabotage
    But Russia strictly trades only gas. Because of gas, Russia is cursing with Belarus and Ukraine.
    Swearing with Belarus is more like some kind of fiction to the public (first you read that, they say, we swear again, and the next day about the launch of joint exercises), but in Ukraine, who organized the coup there?
    1. sabotage
      sabotage 7 January 2018 12: 42
      +1
      Qatar is a US vassal, further explain?


      That is, the US vassal can not only bring down planes, but also nishtyaks for this? So explain further.

      There is nothing permanent in politics, by the way, now there are military bases and large investments there.


      What kind of investment? Name these projects.

      Military bases for aviation are not being built in five minutes, so training began much earlier.


      15 July 2015 year
      “I was encouraged by the fact that Putin called me a couple of weeks ago and started talking about Syria on his own initiative. I think they understand that the Assad regime is losing control of more and more of Syria’s territory, and the seizure of power by Sunni jihadists or the Syrian flight regimes are not inevitable, but they are becoming a greater and greater threat every day. " "This gives us the opportunity to engage in a serious dialogue with them (with the Russian authorities)," Obama said.

      http://tass.ru/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/2120461

      Of course, it all started earlier. As soon as the movement along the Turkish Stream got up and the Turks began to put pressure on Gazprom, they received discounts on current supplies, but did not receive the signing of documents under the pretext of an unformed government. When 4 threads smoothly turned into one when a 10,25% discount appeared, then there was a need to create an instrument of influence on Turkey.

      https://ria.ru/economy/20150804/1162180253.html

      Yes, yes, yes, they always talk about this when they want the Russian Federation to give up all its foreign policy interests, as under Gorbachev.


      That is, Russia's foreign policy interests are formed according to some other principles? If so, tell me.

      Swearing with Belarus is more like some kind of fiction to the public (first you read that, they say, we swear again, and the next day about the launch of joint exercises), but in Ukraine, who organized the coup there?


      Is the joint exercise under current arrangements something important? Here the trade turnover is shrinking from year to year, the restoration of border control and the absence of any new joint projects looks sad.

      And as for Ukraine, then recall who did not interfere with the organization of the coup, although it could?
      1. Dart2027
        Dart2027 7 January 2018 14: 45
        +1
        Quote: sabotage
        So explain further.
        It’s useless to fight with him, but we don’t know what he got there. Here are our terrorists on its territory cleaned up spit on everything.
        Quote: sabotage
        What kind of investment? Name these projects.
        https://neftegaz.ru/news/view/148645-Siriya-prigl
        ashaet-Rossiyu-k-realizatsii-sovmestnyh-proektov-
        v-neftegaze
        Quote: sabotage
        Of course, it all started earlier. As soon as a dvizhuha
        But only by that time the base was ready to receive our aircraft. Accidentally. And from what year does the Syrian Express go? Do not remember?
        Quote: sabotage
        That is, Russia's foreign policy interests are formed according to some other principles?
        So you declare that they say everything for the sake of the oligarchs - and prove it with documentary sources.
        Quote: sabotage
        Is the joint exercise under current arrangements something important?
        Well, if the army is something unimportant, then I don’t know.
        Quote: sabotage
        Here the trade turnover is shrinking from year to year, the restoration of border control and the absence of any new joint projects looks sad.

        Currently, work is underway on a number of new integration projects, the largest of which are: the creation of the Russian-Belarusian holding Rosbelavto on the basis of the assets of KAMAZ and MAZ enterprises, as well as the establishment of specialized cooperation with such Belarusian enterprises as Minsk Plant OJSC wheel tractors ”, OJSC“ Peleng ”, OJSC“ Integral ”and OJSC“ Grodno-Nitrogen ”.
        https://belarus.mid.ru/spravocnye-materialy/-/ass
        et_publisher / 9CH6VzS6hIWV / content / rossijsko-belor
        usskoe-torgovo-ekonomiceskoe-sotrudnicestvo
        Quote: sabotage
        then remind who did not interfere with the organization of the coup, although he could
        Well, how exactly could he? Having entered troops in Kiev?
        1. sabotage
          sabotage 7 January 2018 20: 51
          0
          Quote: Dart2027
          It’s useless to fight with him, but we don’t know what he got there. Here are our terrorists on its territory cleaned up spit on everything.

          And to sell stakes in an inexpensive, racially correct method of dealing with religious psychopaths?

          https://www.rbc.ru/economics/10/12/2016/584c58e89
          a7947ec70b5e46f

          Quote: Dart2027
          https://neftegaz.ru/news/view/148645-Siriya-prigl
          ashaet-Rossiyu-k-realizatsii-sovmestnyh-proektov-
          v-neftegaze


          Only blah blah blah. There are no contracts.

          Quote: Dart2027
          But only by that time the base was ready to receive our aircraft. Accidentally. And from what year does the Syrian Express go? Do not remember?

          That is, 4 years the base was prepared?

          Quote: Dart2027
          So you declare that they say everything for the sake of the oligarchs - and prove it with documentary sources.

          I won’t even think about it. I’m more interested in your opinion on the mechanisms for making these decisions. I admit readiness to share your point of view.

          Quote: Dart2027
          Well, if the army is something unimportant, then I don’t know.

          Joint exercises and the Army are not comparable in scale. Do not distort.

          Quote: Dart2027
          https://belarus.mid.ru/spravocnye-materialy/-/ass
          et_publisher / 9CH6VzS6hIWV / content / rossijsko-belor
          usskoe-torgovo-ekonomiceskoe-sotrudnicestvo


          Of the existing projects, there is only the Belarusian NPP. But - the brainchild of the terrible 90s. And all Rosbelavto and everything else was discussed 5 years ago. Woz and now there. But if you open the statistics of the Customs Union, it becomes so dreary ...

          Quote: Dart2027
          Well, how exactly could he? Having entered troops in Kiev?

          Did Americans seize power in Ukraine with the help of troops?
          1. Dart2027
            Dart2027 7 January 2018 23: 11
            +1
            Quote: sabotage
            And to sell stakes in an inexpensive, racially correct method of dealing with religious psychopaths?
            Firstly, if you carefully read your own link, it says that more than one Qatar is participating in it and that many moments are not disclosed. Secondly, psychopaths are those who detonate bombs, and those who stand at the head of anyone, just not psychopaths.
            Quote: sabotage
            That is, 4 years the base was prepared?
            And in your opinion, to prepare the base for the work of the aerospace forces in another country, and even in the conditions of the strictest secrecy - is it like weeding the beds? Normal term.
            Quote: sabotage
            I won’t even think about it. I’m more interested in your opinion on the mechanisms for making these decisions.
            Very simple - the country's geopolitical interests.
            Quote: sabotage
            Joint exercises and the army - concepts not comparable in scale
            The air defense forces of Russia and Belarus have begun joint combat alert http://www.interfax.ru/world/578006
            Quote: sabotage
            And all Rosbelavto and everything else was discussed 5 years ago. Woz and now there.
            Around the same time that events in Ukraine began, these projects were temporarily frozen. "Coincidence".
            Quote: sabotage
            Did Americans seize power in Ukraine with the help of troops?
            After the American intelligence services felt at home there for twenty years, this was not necessary. Russia did not have such opportunities.
            1. sabotage
              sabotage 8 January 2018 08: 29
              +1
              Quote: Dart2027
              Firstly, if you carefully read your own link, it says that more than one Qatar is participating in it and that many moments are not disclosed. Secondly, psychopaths are those who detonate bombs, and those who stand at the head of anyone, just not psychopaths.

              That is, they have excesses on the ground: the Russian ambassador was murdered at the airport in the presence of their deputy minister by accident, the plane itself crashed. And the Qatari chief guys themselves are cool and fluffy, they just did not know what was happening: there are 300 people, how to keep track of everyone! They would generally also be presented for awards.

              Quote: Dart2027
              And in your opinion, to prepare the base for the work of the aerospace forces in another country, and even in the conditions of the strictest secrecy - is it like weeding the beds? Normal term.

              That is, in the past, in an atmosphere of secrecy, cosmodromes were built over these periods, but then it took 4 years to deploy a consolidated air regiment? Not funny? There is no need for capital construction projects, only to equip the materiel. Delov for 3 months in a leisurely mode.

              Quote: Dart2027
              Very simple - the country's geopolitical interests.

              Where do they come from, who formulates them? The top military-political leadership of the country? If so, what do these interests include? Does Russia have geopolitical interests in Ukraine, the Baltic states, Central Asia, and the Caucasus? Why Syria? How does partial control of Syria improve Russia's geopolitical position?

              Quote: Dart2027
              The air defense forces of Russia and Belarus have begun joint combat alert http://www.interfax.ru/world/578006

              That is, the Belarusians were understaffed to ensure joint watch. But there is no long-term integration. As the materiel wears out, Russia will be forced to supply more and more new equipment and machinery. And as soon as she refuses this, the whole fairy tale story of joint watch will end. Belarus does not really need air defense; it has especially nothing to cover. This Russia needs to cover Kaliningrad and the western direction.
              But nothing so unites as the joint earning of attendants, and Russia and Belarus have problems with this.

              Quote: Dart2027
              Around the same time that events in Ukraine began, these projects were temporarily frozen. "Coincidence".

              And I thought that everything had stopped from the dismantling of Belaruskali and Uralkali, Maz, gas wars and mutual distrust.
              https://ria.ru/analytics/20130827/958970871.html


              Quote: Dart2027
              After the American intelligence services felt at home there for twenty years, this was not necessary. Russia did not have such opportunities.

              How did you not have? Who bothered? Visas did not give? Did the language barrier interfere? Was the mentality different? Maybe she just didn’t do anything?
              1. Dart2027
                Dart2027 8 January 2018 11: 50
                +1
                Quote: sabotage
                That is, they have excesses in the field
                Why excesses, just a command was given from the hosts. Or will you argue here that all these Cathars, Saudis and others are independent of the United States?
                Quote: sabotage
                That is, in past years, in an atmosphere of secrecy, cosmodromes for these periods were built
                In the territory of other states? And where exactly?
                Quote: sabotage
                Why Syria? How does partial control of Syria improve Russia's geopolitical position?
                Firstly, the destruction of the army of terrorists away from the Caucasus, someone will certainly seep back, but not in such quantities as could be, secondly, you don’t know why all the countries that can afford it create military bases outside their own territory?
                Quote: sabotage
                Does Russia have geopolitical interests in Ukraine, the Baltic states, Central Asia, and the Caucasus?
                Have we been invited to the Baltic states? And when? And in Ukraine, how many times have they tried to provoke the Russian Federation to direct troop entry, why?
                Quote: sabotage
                But there is no long-term integration
                And who said that?
                Quote: sabotage
                Belarus does not really need air defense; it has especially nothing to cover. This Russia needs to cover Kaliningrad and the western direction
                Do they know about this in Belarus itself?
                Quote: sabotage
                that everything stopped from the showdown Belaruskali and Uralkali
                The protagonist of this story has an interesting biography https://www.vedomosti.ru/business/articles/2017/0
                3/21/682142-baumgertner-vozglavil
                Quote: sabotage
                How did you not have? Who bothered?
                For example, the fact that when the power structures of Ukraine were created, we had a question about the survival of Russia as a state. Then time was already lost.
  30. Jack O'Neill
    Jack O'Neill 7 January 2018 11: 54
    +2
    Akizuki is the most beautiful boat I've seen. Just mi-mi-mi (´ • ω • `) ♡
    And like specifically - Teruzuki - る づ き (Shining Moon), purely because of the name.
  31. rumpeljschtizhen
    rumpeljschtizhen 7 January 2018 15: 07
    0
    They have an interesting tradition to call ships ...... beautiful natural phenomena (not like our Hurricane .. Storm) and “Siranukhi” “glow of the sea” ... as I recall, they have a lot of ships with such names, it's beautiful
  32. 3danimal
    3danimal 7 January 2018 15: 16
    0
    Quote: KaPToC
    They are conditionally missile, submarpun flies 60-80 km, granites fly five hundred.

    You are mistaken: the last modification of the "Harpoon" flies just at a distance of over 200 km. And the “Granite” has a maximum range of 600+, but with the main high-altitude section of the trajectory and external target designation, which is not there. Without it, Antey can recognize and attack KUG at a distance of 100-150km, in fact, such is the range of the Granite when flying only at low altitude.
    1. KaPToC
      KaPToC 7 January 2018 19: 30
      0
      Quote: 3danimal
      the latest modification of the "Harpoon" flies just at a distance of over 200 km.

      Underwater harpoons fly 80 km EMNIP
  33. 3danimal
    3danimal 7 January 2018 15: 21
    0
    Quote: Sergeant71
    You have good grass, bro ... Grass ....

    Then reasonably refute all the examples and arguments of the author of the post, if you have something to say on the merits.
  34. crambol
    crambol 7 January 2018 15: 58
    0
    ... One “Siranukha”, two “Siranukha”, ...
  35. Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 7 January 2018 17: 25
    0
    Quote: sabotage
    Russia climbed into Syria to blackmail the Turks with the Turkish stream. We wanted 4 pipes of 15 billion each, and let the Turks bargain, and so they decided to bomb the Turkomans a bit so that the Turks become more accommodating. But the Turks, do not be fools, shot down the SU-24, got off with tomatoes, got a loan for C400, nuclear power plants, squeezed a couple of Gazprom subsidiaries and allowed to pull one pipe. With good behavior will be allowed to pull the second. So the Ukrainians benefit here, which in 2019 will come to humiliate Gazprom on their terms. The Turks, who get nishtyaks at the expense of the budget of the Russian Federation and Gazprom, benefit here.

    You forgot about the tourists and 4 billion dollars of damage .. And that's all right, well, Vova is not the first to receive Lyuli from mattresses, let’s recall August 2000 ..
    1. sabotage
      sabotage 8 January 2018 08: 34
      0
      Quote: Dzafdet
      Quote: sabotage
      Russia climbed into Syria to blackmail the Turks with the Turkish stream. We wanted 4 pipes of 15 billion each, and let the Turks bargain, and so they decided to bomb the Turkomans a bit so that the Turks become more accommodating. But the Turks, do not be fools, shot down the SU-24, got off with tomatoes, got a loan for C400, nuclear power plants, squeezed a couple of Gazprom subsidiaries and allowed to pull one pipe. With good behavior will be allowed to pull the second. So the Ukrainians benefit here, which in 2019 will come to humiliate Gazprom on their terms. The Turks, who get nishtyaks at the expense of the budget of the Russian Federation and Gazprom, benefit here.

      You forgot about the tourists and 4 billion dollars of damage .. And that's all right, well, Vova is not the first to receive Lyuli from mattresses, let’s recall August 2000 ..

      Have tourists flown through Belarus?
  36. KaPToC
    KaPToC 7 January 2018 19: 22
    +1
    Quote: Greenwood
    It’s quite a truth.

    You're lying
  37. philosopher
    philosopher 7 January 2018 23: 05
    0
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    As far as I am aware of the realities of the late USSR, the perception of the United States as an enemy citizens - This is a very simplified picture. Maybe this was the case in the military circle, but civilian politics were perceived without exaltation, as far as they had to face. As now, more or less.

    You're wrong. When Reagan was president of the United States, in the late USSR, just in the kitchens, conversations were periodically held on the topic of America’s unjustified hostility towards us and which cities they will try to erase in the first place, because not everyone lives in a well-protected capital ...
    From anyone. Even from Ramzan Akhmatych, most likely, they will prefer to cut off.
    But there is a much sadder thing. That part of the youth who can afford it (and not only youth), of course, will break into the airport, but - attention! - She herself will not sit in Abrams and will not go to liberate her Motherland from gebni. And this, perhaps, is the end for Russia.

    Well, no one will send shkolot into battle, they are simply not threatened by anything from any side, because they will also be protected from an external enemy. Passage with Abrams and beyond - I did not understand.
    You see. The Russian person has two options to choose his government. Through the embassy of that government, which suits him more, or in ways prohibited by law. "Bulk Electorate" - supporters of the second option. From the point of view of patriotism - this, it seems to me, should cause optimism. People, at least (so far) are linking their future with Russia.

    I am finally convinced that you do not understand the moods and motives of the so-called the electorate of Navalny. There is no, even an insignificant share of patriotism in them. They do not care about everything except their own well-being, and therefore they will go after those who promise them this well-being. In fact, they also do not need their homeland if it is not ready for them. giveThis is probably why they all scornfully call Russia "rashka". What can cause optimism here?
    With my complete lack of sympathy for the current government, I just do not see an alternative: who could I point my finger at at the polls. And here the option “let this one try” - does not fit at all, since the wrong choice can be fatal. The US openly proclaims its plans for the collapse of Russia as an integral state. Anyone can draw conclusions.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 8 January 2018 05: 14
      +2
      Quote: philosopher
      in the kitchens, conversations were held periodically

      I won’t say for all the kitchens. But, as far as I remember the Soviet propaganda from the time of the stagnation, the Pentagon hawks (who hold the sclerotic finger on the trigger of the war) were forced. America was not declared the whole country of the Pesoglauders. Now propaganda is more clumsy.
      Quote: philosopher
      I am finally convinced that you do not understand the moods and motives of the so-called Bulk electorate

      How to tell you. Well, and I know this quite well. There are even some reasons to believe that it is much better than you.
      Quote: philosopher
      They do not care about everything except their own well-being,

      Well-being and Navalny are poorly combined, don't you find?
      Quote: philosopher
      Russia is scornfully called a "rashka"

      And not without reason. First of all, this is a reaction to the search for pathos in official rhetoric.
      Quote: philosopher
      What can cause optimism here?

      The fact that they are active in order to change their life in Russia, and not beyond. Another conversation is that they do it on, like everything else.
      Actually, the passage with Abrams on the same topic. An extremely significant part of the "elites", including that part of the youth who can choose, chooses to forget Russia as a nightmare. In the old days, this was not. Now it’s almost impossible to understand how the Bolshevik comrades, sitting in Switzerland, all the same started up their own boils. Why the hell do you need a revolution in Russia, if you're already in Switzerland? And in Soviet times, very many worthy people sacrificed their well-being in the name of the interests of the Fatherland and their people, albeit understanding them, unfortunately, in an opposite way to each other.

      Actually, the last decades there has been an extreme devaluation of the word "patriotism". Here, the Soviet government tried, but, nevertheless, S.F. was, say, a Soviet patriot. Akhromeev - a man whom it is impossible not to respect - but V.V. almost immediately became a Russian patriot Zhirinovsky, and then he was overshadowed by such outstanding medically people as EA Fedorov.

      Naturally, against such a background, it is practically impossible for a healthy person to talk about patriotism. Very few people decide on this.
      Quote: philosopher
      who could point a finger at the election

      You see. Obstinate liberals like me do not like Navalny, including for this stupid booth with "elections." In Russia, there are no electoral mechanisms for the transit of power.
      Quote: philosopher
      here the option "let this one try" ... may be fatal

      You see. There is an opinion that it has already turned out. As V.V. said Volodin, "There is Putin - there is Russia, there is no Putin - there is no Russia." And with every trillion stolen and one million left, this is an increasingly realistic scenario. Variant of Louis XV.
      Quote: philosopher
      The US openly proclaims its plans for the collapse of Russia as an integral state.

      But this, sorry, is a lie.
      1. philosopher
        philosopher 10 January 2018 18: 36
        0
        Are you a professional political scientist or a professional troll? You answer something, but the final thought all the time remains unsaid. There is no desire to argue with you, I see that this is a waste of time, because in this way the bots created for chats respond.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 11 January 2018 06: 41
          +1
          Quote: philosopher
          bots created for chats.

          Bots respond shortly.
          Quote: philosopher
          the final thought remains unsaid all the time

          The final thought is what? What kind of evidence do you seek?
  38. flicker
    flicker 7 January 2018 23: 08
    +2
    It seems that they no longer trust their security with the American allies.
    Yes, and too expensive an ally ... and arrogant ... and maybe not an ally, but arrogant.
  39. philosopher
    philosopher 7 January 2018 23: 25
    0
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Yes, but no. The dollar stands at the top of the pyramid of a huge economy. Not only, by the way, American.

    Yes, the US economy includes the economies of other countries to the extent that they are planted on the dollar. The Russian economy - including. To understand the scale of the tragedy, compare the equivalent of the US product and consumed. Equivalent in gold, for example, because when compared in dollars, the picture will not play in all colors.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 8 January 2018 04: 27
      +1
      Quote: philosopher
      Equivalent in gold, let's say

      Sorry? And at what price to take gold?
      The trade deficit is about 2% of GDP. Do you think this is a problem?
      1. philosopher
        philosopher 8 January 2018 19: 23
        0
        You are not in that “steppe” ... I say, can America pay with gold? The US national debt is considered in dollars, but that figure is valid only if and give in dollars. If the creditor asks for the return of gold, then America will either have to lift the price of gold above heaven (including influencing world prices if it can), or pay the final resource, in contrast to the production of the printing press.
        But with a figure of 2% you are disingenuous. And this directly correlates with what I wrote above - the "GDP" of the USA consists, among other things, of different size shares of the GDP of other countries, including Russia. So the real deficit will be much larger than the indicated 2%. USA - a parasite that has enveloped the whole world with dollar tentacles. And those who find the strength to challenge and break out of these embraces are immediately declared a rogue state and sanctioned. Do you think Russia flew sanctions over Crimea? Pff ...
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 8 January 2018 21: 50
          +1
          Quote: philosopher
          I say, can America pay with gold?

          No, of course. The volume of available gold is not comparable with the volume of modern financial markets. For comparison, the value of gold in Central Bank reserves is about $ 60 billion. At the same time, Russia's foreign debt is $ 529 billion as of July 01.07.17, XNUMX (taking into account mainly the state corporate sector).
          Quote: philosopher
          If the creditor asks to return the gold

          This has not been possible since 1976.
          Quote: philosopher
          But with a figure of 2% you are disingenuous

          This is a fact.
          Quote: philosopher
          The "GDP" of the USA consists, among other things, of different size shares of the GDP of other countries

          You confuse GDP and GNP. In the case of the United States, these numbers are close.
          Quote: philosopher
          And those who find the strength to challenge and break out of these hugs

          Good heavens, what a drama.
          Quote: philosopher
          Do you think Russia flew sanctions over Crimea?

          No. I think that many years of efforts have borne fruit. And even beyond all expectations. Brick on Russian foreign policy, 36-48 seconds.

          Brick on US Foreign Policy by the US Senate, at 2.15

          This did not survive before the election of the 20th year. It may be quite interesting.
          1. The comment was deleted.
  40. Razvedka_Boem
    Razvedka_Boem 8 January 2018 05: 15
    +1
    Plus. Still, Kaptsov has a peculiar style ..)
  41. K-50
    K-50 8 January 2018 14: 39
    0
    Small ammunition is an illusion of peacetime. The Japanese have already shown a similar trick, with the replacement of the Mogami artillery towers. The cruisers, in secret, were designed for an 8 ”caliber, but, under the terms of an international agreement, carried“ props ”of six inches. Until the thunder struck

    I do not see the point. Then there was an international agreement on limiting the displacement of ships, the Washington Agreement, but now there is nothing of the kind. So no one bothers / forbids you to bet as much as you like, the restriction is only in geometric dimensions.
  42. Arikkhab
    Arikkhab 8 January 2018 16: 30
    0
    "Japan's military spending is only 1% of GDP (the leader among developed countries is Russia with an indicator of over 5%)"

    - Actually, the Russian Federation is in 4th place
    - Japan and more GDP
    - Plus the Russian Federation alone, and Japan with its allies (how many American bases are there in Japan?)
    1. amr
      amr 9 January 2018 14: 22
      0
      - Actually, the Russian Federation is in 4th place
      in absolute or relative terms?
      - Japan and more GDP
      GDP is greater, but it spends on defense many times less! in relation to other expenses!
      Quote: ArikKhab
      Plus Russia alone, and Japan with allies
      the eternal cry has begun, we alone insult us all, and who prevents Russia from creating its own union?
  43. amr
    amr 9 January 2018 14: 19
    0
    Quote: igorka357
    What nonsense you carried, although your nickname is clear!

    the person has laid out everything quite reasonably, the logical chain is perfectly developing, and just you, based on your tricky experience and nickname of the interlocutor, concluded about his thoughts ....
  44. Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 13 January 2018 00: 37
    +1
    Quote: saturn.mmm
    American PPP cannot be by definition.

    PPP is the ratio of the cost of a set of goods and services in different countries. When calculating the American kit, it naturally includes Chinese consumer goods. The PPP of the dollar within the United States is one, in other countries it is some kind of coefficient.
    But you see, everything is not at all simple. There are many methods for calculating PPPs that span dozens of pages. They have a very high proportion of econometric shamanism. Simpler calculations on the fingers — how much a household spends in Russia and how much in the USA — show that almost always an American family gets more for its money. Much that an American family buys for their money - for example, serious medicine, which is very expensive in the USA - the Russian person pays even more, because he is forced to go to Israel for treatment at least. Or die, yes, it's a lot cheaper. Something - for example, pensions (what they call them in the USA) or high-quality higher education - cannot be obtained in Russia for any money.
    Quote: saturn.mmm
    Americans ceded leadership in automotive, shipbuilding

    And somewhere else, YUSSTIel, Railway Monopoly, was lost, a lot of things. And what is the tragedy?
    Speaking of shipbuilding. The Avikosrach will explain to you that the construction of Aviks is available only to a country with first-class shipbuilding.
    Quote: saturn.mmm
    worried about the market of communication satellites, their Chinese are running out,

    There is nothing to worry about so far. But the Chinese way of climbing crooked hands into other people's devices has led to the fact that their launches are banned by both the United States and Europe. This is not the case in this business.
    Quote: saturn.mmm
    some USA began to call a post-industrial country.

    And there is. Post-industrial are economies in which most of the GDP is generated by the service sector. NNC all developed countries are post-industrial, and not even particularly developed, like Russia.
    Quote: saturn.mmm
    everyone rushed to buy US securities,

    Is this a sign of imminent default for you?
    Quote: saturn.mmm
    Perhaps out of 250 thousand, someone died, someone emigrated and someone went underground

    Naturally, the Japanese do all this. Do you propose to lure on this subject? I, it seems, clearly said why the data you provided from this particular LJ could not be considered.
    Quote: saturn.mmm
    That there would be no destitute

    The Fed is not a charitable organization, someone deceived you. She has slightly different tasks.