Military Review

The National Interest: Russian pistols were created for a brutal and bloody war

114
Small weapon The Soviet Union and Russia were exploited both in our country and abroad, and thanks to this they gained deserved fame throughout the world. Old and new samples naturally attract the attention of specialists and weapon lovers, and also regularly become the subject of various publications, articles and books.


9 December: The National Interest published the next article by security expert Kyle Mizokami. The material titled “Russia's hand-made gangs for only one Thing: Tough and Bloody Wars” (“Pistols of Russia were created only for one thing: for a brutal and bloody war”) was assigned to The Buzz and Security headings. As the title shows, the subject of the article was pistols of Soviet and Russian design, as well as their characteristics and capabilities.

K. Mizokami begins his article with a reminder of the events of the recent past and their consequences. Thus, becoming the successor of the Soviet army, the Ground Forces of the Russian Federation inherited from it huge stocks of various small arms. At the same time, the quantities received were redundant for a smaller army. As a result, a significant part of the weapon went to storage. Warehouses with stocks of various small arms are available in all 11 time zones.



Different samples were sent for storage, including service pistols intended for officers, armored vehicle crews and political workers. The author points out that service pistols of all models, both old and new, are considered today both as a means of self-defense of individual servicemen and as a “symbol of power” of their owners.

The author of The National Interest reminds that one of the first samples of its kind, entered into service with the USSR Army, was the “TT automatic pistol” or “Tokarev”. At the same time, K. Mizokami specifies that the term “automatic” in this case means the possibility of self-recharging, but not the presence of an automatic fire mode. Thus, when shooting from an “automatic” TT pistol, the shooter has to press the trigger again after each shot.

"Tokarev" had a utilitarian and unattractive appearance. However, it corresponded to the general Soviet military aesthetics. Like most other Soviet-developed weapons, the TT was easy to use and also showed the required reliability. With all this, the lack of a fuse required care from the shooter, otherwise there was a risk of an accidental shot.

The TT pistol weighed 1,86 pounds (850 g) and used 7,62 x25 mm M30 cartridges (sample 1930 of the year). The internal mechanisms of this product were based on the ideas of John Browning, previously implemented in the gun M1911. So, automation used a mobile barrel with a short stroke and a swinging earring. Most Tokarev pistols can use a Mauser 7,63x25 cartridge — the Soviet 7,62-mm 1930 cartridge was originally created on the basis of this munition. German cartridges were also used with Mauser machine pistols.

The Tokarev pistol was produced by the Tula Arms Plant, which led to the appearance of the designation in the form of two letters "T". Production of such weapons continued until the 1952 year. For two decades of production, the industry has transferred to the army and other structures about 1 million 700 thousands of serial pistols. In addition, TT pistols were produced in Hungary, Poland, Yugoslavia, China and North Korea. Some of these products were manufactured under license, others - without permission.

The next Soviet pistol, as Kyle Mizokami writes, was also “inspired” by one of the foreign models. The author calls the Makarov Pistol (PM) a copy of the German “police pistol” Walther PP, one of the models of small arms produced during the Second World War. The Soviet pistol, known by the unofficial nickname "Makarov", was a copy of the Walther PPK pistol - a modification of the PP product, which was distinguished by fewer parts and greater ease of production. The result is a pistol that looks like a less attractive version of James Bond's weapon - Walther PPK.

The PM pistol was adopted by the Soviet Army in December 1951. The start of the exploitation of this weapon allowed the military to abandon the older “Tokarev”.

PM differed from the TT smaller size and weight. In addition, he had a less long barrel. Makarov pistol was supposed to use the Soviet 9-mm cartridge. K. Mizokami believes that this choice of ammunition was associated with the reluctance of the army to use foreign-developed cartridges. In addition, he recalls the well-known version, according to which the cartridge 9x18 mm PM is a modified version of the German product 9x18 mm Ultra. According to its characteristics, the Soviet patron is relatively weak. In terms of power, it takes up space between the 9x19 mm “Parabellum” and .380 ACP cartridges. Like the Tokarev pistol, Makarov's weapon used a magazine for 8 cartridges.

Like other Soviet-made small arms, the PM was actively used not only in the USSR, but also beyond its borders. These weapons were supplied to armies and revolutionaries from different countries. The armed forces of Afghanistan and Zimbabwe are still using Makarov pistols. In Afghanistan, Grenada, Laos, Iraq, North Vietnam and Syria, the American military had to deal with such weapons.

Also, Makarov relied on the crews of Soviet armored combat vehicles stationed, among other things, in Eastern European countries. If the Cold War had become “hot,” these weapons would have to be used in real battles.

K. Mizokami recalls an attempt to upgrade an existing pistol. So, in the 1990, the “Makarov Pistol Modernized” PMM was introduced. It differed from the base sample by the increased magazine and 33-percentage increase in ammunition.

Later, in the nineties, a new Russian pistol appeared. Designer Vladimir Yarygin developed a promising pistol pistol. This product is also known as the “Rook” MP-443. The new gun was actually a “mixture” of old and new ideas. Like the older TT, the new “Rook” uses some of the work of J. Browning - this time the source of ideas was the Hi-Power pistol. At the same time, the PU has a “modern” double-action firing mechanism. This means that when you press the trigger with a long stroke, both the cocking and lowering of the trigger occur. If necessary, the mechanics of weapons allows you to shoot with a pre-cocking the hammer manually.

Unlike the TT and PM, the pistol of V. Yarygin uses 9x19 mm “Parabellum” cartridges. This ammunition is the actual standard in the field of modern pistols and is in service with many countries.

The TT pistol did not have a fuse, but the draft of the Grach nuclear-powered ship provides several means of protection against an accidental shot. On both sides of the frame are set safety flags, blocking the operation of the trigger mechanism. As K. Mizokami notes, such a system, like many other elements of modern weapons, was proposed by J. Browning. In addition, "Rook" has the means to automatically lock the drummer. This part does not move until the trigger is pulled.

Despite the novelty in comparison with the two other samples examined, the Yarygin pistol does not have some of the features characteristic of modern foreign weapons. For example, there are no standard guides for mounting additional equipment, an indicator of the presence of a cartridge in the chamber and means of removing the weapon from the platoon.

The PU pistol was put into service in the 2003 year. The introduction of these weapons into mass exploitation was associated with certain difficulties and was noticeably delayed. The reasons for this were simple: the Russian army had a large number of PM and PMM pistols.

Service pistols of the Soviet Union and Russia are simple, durable and reliable. They were created taking into account the production and use in wartime. At the same time, they lack some of the features and capabilities available to foreign weapons. For example, Russian pistols are markedly different from the latest American product M17 Modular Handgun System. However, when creating them, the main attention was paid to the functionality and solution of the assigned tasks. This means that Russian TT, PM / PMM and PJ pistols are capable of performing their work in the most difficult conditions.

***

Pistols from the category of service weapons, for obvious reasons, do not attract much public attention, however, they can be of great interest. A recent article by The National Interest "Russian Handguns Are Only Built for One Thing: Tough and Bloody Wars" clearly shows that the foreign press is ready to pay attention not only to missiles, tanks and airplanes.

Kyle Mizokami’s article concludes with a curious, albeit obvious, conclusion. The Soviet and Russian weapons school focuses on combat capabilities, ease of production and other utilitarian features of weapons. In some cases, however, such factors may reduce the usability of the finished sample or limit its compatibility with additional equipment. Nevertheless, as the American author writes, Russian pistols are created for cruel and bloody wars, which affects their design.

It should be noted that there are some errors in the material from The National Interest, including quite gross ones. Perhaps the most noticeable are the words about the PM pistol as a copy of the German Walther PP / PPK. Indeed, when developing his own gun, N.F. Makarov took into account foreign experience and borrowed some ideas. However, the similarity of the design of PM and PP is limited only by the overall layout and some details. Otherwise, these are different patterns, based on similar ideas. Similarly, the situation was with the cartridges. Despite the similarity of designations, the 9x18 mm “Ultra” and 9x18 mm PM products are very different from each other.

K. Mizokami reviewed some of the design features of the Yarygin pistol and recalled in which project these solutions were first implemented. Comparing the new pistol with a very old Browning Hi-Power looks very funny, but it can hardly be called objective. Modern weapons for the most part are created on the basis of a limited circle of relatively old ideas. Because of this, the simultaneous mention of "Rook" and "High-Power" looks at least strange.

However, the article “Only Hand for One Thing: Tough and Bloody Wars” is of some interest. The foreign press does not often pay attention to the Russian weapons of old models, including those that have been decommissioned. In addition, the article concludes with a very pleasant conclusion about the capabilities of Soviet and Russian weapons to solve the assigned tasks in different conditions.


An article entitled “Compared to One Thing: Tough and Bloody Wars”:
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russias-handguns-are-built-only-one-thing-tough-bloody-wars-23570
Author:
114 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. Cxnumx
    Cxnumx 14 December 2017 07: 39 New
    23
    in their reviews of our products everywhere you spit, everywhere: “copied”, “borrowed”, etc. etc. one problem - for some reason, our "copies" are much more reliable, easier to manufacture and are not inferior in power to the "originals")))
    1. Jedi
      Jedi 14 December 2017 09: 48 New
      +6
      I already wrote today, but I repeat: NI's idle conjectures have long become a byword.
    2. Monarchist
      Monarchist 14 December 2017 14: 27 New
      +1
      Koshchei, somewhere in I read a story about Turners: he was still fascinated when he saw Browning's gun in WWI. Subsequently, when he began work on his pistol, he imitated Browning until a certain point, but significantly simplified the scheme.
      1. Dimachrus
        Dimachrus 17 December 2017 18: 23 New
        +2
        Making a complex mechanism is simple, but making a mechanism with the same capabilities simple (equally reliable) is difficult ;-)
    3. datur
      datur 15 December 2017 01: 22 New
      0
      alas, but yes almost everything, the question is so what !!!! wink
    4. Kibb
      Kibb 15 December 2017 14: 37 New
      +3
      Yeah, especially the TT is not inferior in power and reliability to the originals
      1. Dr. Bermental
        Dr. Bermental 18 December 2017 19: 59 New
        0
        but Colt 1911 is much more beautiful than ..
        1. CooL_SnipeR
          CooL_SnipeR 19 December 2017 00: 38 New
          +1
          Colt stood in service for so long, not because of his beauty (count a century), but because of the high stopping action of the bullet. This compensated for other shortcomings - limited ammunition size, huge size and weight.
          However, with the mass appearance of personal protective equipment in the army (bulletproof vests) - its effectiveness has come to naught and it has been replaced by Beretta 92, etc.
          The modernization of the PMM also occurred because of this, as even though the TT cartridge (in fact it is a Mauser cartridge) is effective against protective equipment (remember the dashing 90 and the popularity of TT) - but it has an extremely low stopping effect. Therefore, after the domestic PM was replaced. That is why quite powerful cartridges of 3-9 mm caliber have appeared in the last 10 years, which combine both slaughter and breakdown action, including due to special ammunition
          1. Dr. Bermental
            Dr. Bermental 19 December 2017 08: 43 New
            0
            we need to create our own gun - which no one has ..! and beautiful and powerful, reliable, lightweight, convenient
            1. CooL_SnipeR
              CooL_SnipeR 19 December 2017 19: 18 New
              0
              Quote: Dr. Bermental
              we need to create our own gun - which no one has ..! and beautiful and powerful, reliable, lightweight, convenient

              Nada, go on to be friends with such a prodigy with physics
            2. Michael HORNET
              Michael HORNET 21 December 2017 09: 53 New
              +2
              Why tell tales about the "extremely low stopping effect" cartridge 7,62x25 TT ?? This betrays your complete incompetence. In terms of slaughter and stopping power, almost 500 J TT cartridge exceeds 300 J PM cartridge, and the TT cartridge has much higher potential. The rejection of this cartridge was stupidity and sabotage
              1. Kot_Kuzya
                Kot_Kuzya 21 December 2017 12: 08 New
                0
                Once again, I specially repeat to you: the transition to the cartridge 9 * 18 made it possible to adopt a pistol with the simplest automation, namely a free bolt. Thanks to this, the army and police in the USSR received a simple, reliable and effective pistol. And due to its simplicity, PM turned out to be cheap to manufacture. Did you even disassemble and collect PM and TT? TT has a very complex design due to the fact that it has a very powerful cartridge, so I had to make a gun with automatic short-stroke barrel.
              2. CooL_SnipeR
                CooL_SnipeR 23 December 2017 15: 04 New
                +1
                2Michael HORNET
                Do you have a snack? You are not competent. Smoke Hutcher’s formula, which directly shows the IMPULSE of the bullet, and not the kinetic energy, or, if it is difficult for mathematics, Josseran - but it operates on the kinetics and by the way does not agree with practical data
                Do not confuse kinetic energy and the stopping action of a bullet - i.e. ability to give this energy to the goal! Bullet PM has a large area, so it gives energy more efficiently. The bullet TT simply flashes through 3 people if it doesn’t hit the bone. And do not confuse a mortal wound, after which a person can open fire on you and a stopping action - when the enemy cannot do anything after hitting a bullet. In your opinion, all sorts of bullets such as hydroshock, nosler, golden saber, etc. just nonsense, Mauser’s ENCLOSED bullet is better.
                The OD of Makarov is higher than that of the TT, and therefore they changed it + as already written more simple automation of the free shutter, which further increases the reliability
                Quietly, because of the% OD in the United States, police prefer 10mm caliber - a large area + bullet nose openings provide almost 96% of the defeat from the first shot. 10mm cartridges provide faster speed, larger area compared to 9mmPara
                I will give the data. A 357magnum with JHP or 40S & W with a nosler bullet gives 96%, a hydroshock .45 - 94% and for example 32ACP only 67%. For 38ACP, which can approximately be considered a PM cartridge - OD 70% and with a bullet + P ... I think that FMJ Makarova gives much less. I can find on TT or Mauser cartridge. But look for laziness
              3. 4thParasinok
                4thParasinok 12 January 2018 23: 42 New
                0
                Quote: Michael HORNET
                In terms of slaughter and stopping power, almost 500 J TT cartridge exceeds 300 J PM cartridge, and the TT cartridge has much higher potential
                at least take an interest in the difference between the terms power and stopping action, then write. And the term slaughter does not exist at all.
  2. Mooh
    Mooh 14 December 2017 07: 42 New
    +9
    And I didn’t even hear about the Stechkin and the General Staff of the Pindocina. At the same time, he writes articles well.
    1. alex-cn
      alex-cn 14 December 2017 07: 57 New
      11
      He knows everything ... Only here it’s impossible to let the hairpin about copying by Russian barbarians, then it means to forget.
    2. Kibb
      Kibb 15 December 2017 14: 44 New
      +1
      That's when there will be an article about GSH there and get hungry
      1. CooL_SnipeR
        CooL_SnipeR 19 December 2017 00: 45 New
        +1
        Still, as for the General Staff, I’ll say that the designers should deal only with aircraft guns. A very controversial weapon that takes more with the used cartridge than with the design. It is very moody, non-ergonomic, has very low ekplatatsionny qualities especially in the field, low temperatures, etc. In general, it’s not difficult to find reviews of security officials on the internet. Yes, it is original (relatively) - but with the possibility of using the same cartridges in our other weapons - its originality has not been claimed until now. He remained a curiosity of weapons art.
        1. Michael HORNET
          Michael HORNET 21 December 2017 09: 56 New
          +2
          Didn’t read more nonsense about GSh-18? the author did not hold this pistol in his hands, but "has an opinion" .... Why write here? Write to Instagram, you definitely have nothing to do on the weapons site
          GSH-18 cannot realize its excellent qualities due to incompetent "effective managers" who are unable to bring out an excellent design and provide a gun service,
          1. CooL_SnipeR
            CooL_SnipeR 1 January 2018 10: 49 New
            0
            Believe me, the managers have multiplied so much that even taking into account low intelligence in the hospital, someone would have "shot"
            GSh-18 has no qualities. From the sowing of a miracle I had a chance to shoot. for obvious reasons, the sports version. The closest analogue is actually glock34. In ergonomics, it’s not strange for me to like 92 Berettas most of all. laughing at least she’s the only one where I knock out all 10s stably (standard police series of 3 rounds). And he gave a wedge on about the 2nd pack of cartridges. At first I thought that the undershot and the cartridge jammed ... although what the undershot at such a return ... The shutter did not close ... pulled back, the cartridge fell out and the same thing ... tadam ... and you know why? And we don’t particularly clean it and the vaunted rotary barrel stood up ... he needs a rammer like M16 rifles laughing
            But he delivered it most of all, as is already clear ... just a wild descent ... Khaidurov’s pistols ... didn’t ... did not hear. Shot from XP82 - just a song. In general, I couldn’t get three dozen on it, well, I couldn’t (from) even from 3 meters. You can certainly kick me, but at the age of 10, the USSR was still alive - I shot at 8 category and the match and the Olympic sweatshirt
            1. 4thParasinok
              4thParasinok 12 January 2018 23: 54 New
              0
              Quote: CooL_SnipeR
              But he delivered it most of all, as is already clear ... just a wild descent ... Khaidurov’s pistols ... didn’t ... did not hear. Shot from XP82 - just a song
              Well, it depends on who, although I remember this is a revolver wink (I admit, I didn’t shoot, only in the pictures I saw repeat ) I personally didn’t have to shoot a lot of different pistols, but even that was enough to look at the design of the GS-18 to understand that it was only for the shooting gallery. Only one open front shutter is worth. On the other hand, there is a truck with seeds to carry.
  3. TTX
    TTX 14 December 2017 08: 05 New
    +9
    Russian pistols are created for brutal and bloody wars, which affects their design. That is, Amer’s humane weapon? Colt humane without a blood pistol (revolver) created for the world wassat
    1. Moore
      Moore 14 December 2017 09: 51 New
      +5
      What Indian does not know about the Colt revolver "Peacemaker" - (peacemaker) ...
  4. Nikolay R-PM
    Nikolay R-PM 14 December 2017 08: 06 New
    +6
    From an engineering point of view, there is a big difference in “peeping” an interesting idea and how to implement it. Often one-on-one tearing up an idea even in a country with a common design school fails, because different production teams with different technological capabilities and approaches work with different design teams. In general, our Western “colleagues” are also actively “writing off” each other - remember how in the early 2010s Airbus helicopters (then Eurocopter) sued bell, because they believed that the latter had whistled the idea of ​​the h120 chassis and implemented it on bell430 ? About the confrontation samsung and apple generally keep quiet))
    The idea is in the air and can fall into different heads, all the salt - in their implementation.
  5. Strashila
    Strashila 14 December 2017 08: 15 New
    13
    "The National Interest: Russian pistols were created for a brutal and bloody war" ... "Service pistols of the Soviet Union and Russia are simple, durable and reliable. They were created taking into account production and use in wartime" ... i.e. weapons were created for war initially ... and not for shooting at dashes and parades, so it is used around the world ... so envy silently. And we also have a sapper blade in service ... tremble the enemy.
    1. Nikolay R-PM
      Nikolay R-PM 14 December 2017 08: 23 New
      +7
      Torn off Claudia) Mizokami is clearly in trend. If ours is for a brutal and bloody war, then Western small arms are portable installations for delivering democratic values ​​by means of lead capsules)
    2. sergo1914
      sergo1914 14 December 2017 09: 58 New
      +4
      Quote: Strashila
      And we also have a sapper blade in service ... tremble the enemy.


      Another flask and bowler. But this is a war crime, at least, pulls. Very deadly equipment.
  6. Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya 14 December 2017 09: 55 New
    +7
    Db! Well, who when fought and will fight with pistols? The most unnecessary weapon in a war is a gun. So I see the oil painting: the brave US marines with the M1911 and the Berettas flee to storm the building in which the bearded men, armed with machine guns, machine guns and grenade launchers, settled down. A gun is just a symbol of power, a distinguishing feature of an officer, as in the Navy this dagger serves as a sign. Therefore, I sincerely see no reason to develop new pistols for the army. Antiquity PM is enough for the eyes. The cheaper, simpler and more reliable the gun, the better it’s - in civilian life, in the army.
    1. Strashila
      Strashila 14 December 2017 10: 46 New
      0
      Like it was during the capture of Grenada during the landing of a special unit of fur seals, I exaggerate ... submachine guns ... only they were met there by Cuban hard workers with the Kalashnikovs. In World War I, an officer did not run into a bayonet attack waving a saber ... but he took a couple of revolvers and this was enough for him to fight.
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 14 December 2017 11: 21 New
        +5
        In World War I there were no assault rifles, but only long and inconvenient ones, with manual reloading of the rifle. Therefore, the officers went on the attack with a pair of revolvers or pistols. And with the advent of machine guns, the need for this disappeared, now in modern conflicts, officers, up to comrades, go on the attack with an AK-74 or M4. No wonder the APS very quickly disappeared from the armament of the line commanders, it was easier and more convenient for them to carry PM in peacetime, and to go with AK during combat operations.
        1. Strashila
          Strashila 14 December 2017 11: 46 New
          0
          The pistol was originally a personal melee weapon and remains so today ... it just changes over time ... it was Nagan ... was TT ... was PM ... was PMM and will continue to develop.
          1. Michael HORNET
            Michael HORNET 14 December 2017 22: 15 New
            +1
            PMM did not enter the army; it’s a special gun
            Replacing the TT with the PM was stupid and wrecking, the TT is more comfortable to wear, more powerful, more flat and better penetrates. The cartridge 9x18 PM is certainly not a copy of 9x18 ultra but "based on", there is no fundamental difference between them
            Pistol Yarygin unfinished and unreliable
            1. Kot_Kuzya
              Kot_Kuzya 15 December 2017 01: 44 New
              +2
              PM is much simpler, more reliable and cheaper than TT. I disassembled and assembled both the PM and the TT, the PM is extremely simple, and the simpler the gun, the easier the training, the easier the cleaning, the easier and cheaper the manufacture, and the more reliable the gun, as there is simply nothing to break and jam. Just the experience of the Second World War showed that the gun does not play any role in the war. Previously, at least they used the TT with the aim that their cartridge would be used in the PP. With the adoption of weapons for an intermediate cartridge, the need for such a powerful pistol cartridge 7,62 * 25 disappeared, and decided to develop an army pistol that works according to the simplest automation scheme as a free bolt.
              TT is more comfortable to wear

              Why is it more comfortable to wear? TT has a length of 195 g and a curb weight of 940 g, the PM has a length of 162 mm and a curb weight of 810 g.
              1. Michael HORNET
                Michael HORNET 15 December 2017 21: 31 New
                +1
                And in what units is simplicity measured? Probably in a machine-tool clock? And what are the performance of these pistols?
                Read how for decades licked the "simple" PM. While the TT was already worked out. For the user, there is no difference in "simplicity" between them - the fact that the PM does not remove the barrel does not make it "easier" for the user. It is more convenient to clean the TT, by the way, and much more - the barrel is removed from it and a simple trigger is obtained. You contradict yourself - if the role of the pistol is insignificant - then what is the point of adopting a NEW pistol under a NEW cartridge - these are unjustified unjustified expenses. Moreover, trying to replace the 500 j cartridge with 300 j. It is ridiculous to talk about the “stopping power" of the PM, at 300 joules and the shell pool the probability of about 50% of a stop from one shot, statistically.
                Now it’s clear that the argument is useless, it’s impossible to return it, so SIX pistol cartridges now (instead of one or two in mind) just show that adopting the PM was stupid
                To understand why a TT is better than a PM, one needs to blame one and the other, and not look at them in the pictures). TT is flat, and it is VERY strongly felt, and 100 g of mass difference does not play the slightest role
                1. Kot_Kuzya
                  Kot_Kuzya 19 December 2017 09: 14 New
                  +1
                  I assure you, the power of the cartridge 9 * 18 for the eyes is enough to stop the enemy. In the USA, for example, revolvers even use .22LR cartridges as a means of self-defense. In the army, a gun is not used in battle, it is a status weapon of officers. And in a combat situation, the platoon commander or the comrade will be armed with a machine gun, and will not walk with only one gun. The staff also do not need a gun in battle, anyway, if the enemy breaks into the headquarters, then the staff will be beaten off by machine guns, and not by pistols. Therefore, a compact, light pistol with the simplest automation and because of this super reliable, the most for the army. Or do you consider yourself smarter than the generals who went through the Second World War and in fact know what kind of pistol is required for the army? And as a police weapon PM is what you need. If in Russia they allow short-barreled weapons, then I will immediately buy it PM, I really liked it for its simplicity and reliability.
                  1. Michael HORNET
                    Michael HORNET 21 December 2017 10: 04 New
                    0
                    Kuzya Why did you climb here instead of doing homework again? All the same, on a serious weapons site you need to at least have the knowledge to write, while you have not finished school yet. Marsh lessons to do.
                    The 300 j 9 mm cartridge was in service with the US Army at the end of the 19th in revolvers ... And it was abandoned precisely because of low efficiency, forcing Browning to make a pistol for 45 rounds, which was a kind of overcompensation, also an erroneous decision, so as the right and more effective way, I was to accelerate further the 9-mm bullet, giving it a reasonable weight, which already has a fairly good effect with an initial energy of 500 joules. But they came to this only now, although everything became clear back in 1935 when the 357 magnum appeared with its highest efficiency
                    1. Kot_Kuzya
                      Kot_Kuzya 21 December 2017 12: 03 New
                      0
                      Everyone knows that the Yankees suffer from gigantomania. Take at least 7,62 * 63. Nobody had more of such a huge rifle case during the Second World War. Therefore, it is not necessary to cite the Yankees as an example.
                2. 4thParasinok
                  4thParasinok 13 January 2018 00: 30 New
                  0
                  Quote: Michael HORNET
                  Read how for decades licked the "simple" PM. While the TT was already worked out.

                  1. TTs could not be brought to mind, it was a construction of an early adopter adopted on the principle: "**** is better than nothing at all." And if the alteration of an automatic carbine with a barrel in the region of 300mm with a detachable butt is more detailed. The forend was removed and the barrel was shortened .. Only Korovin with an even more ridiculous model was his competitor.
                  2. PI was modified not because it was feces, but because there were found constructive safety margins that allowed improvements. In particular, they even made a plastic frame for it that reduces weight, but not reliability. They did not use it because they did not know how it would behave after 25 years. Troop tests took place in 1982.
              2. Dr. Bermental
                Dr. Bermental 19 December 2017 08: 57 New
                0
                walther pp 1972
            2. Strashila
              Strashila 15 December 2017 06: 55 New
              +1
              TT and PM pistols are different in ideology ... for the TT to break through the defense, for the PM to stop.
            3. Kibb
              Kibb 15 December 2017 15: 07 New
              +2
              PM is very good for its timeofficial pistol
              1. Michael HORNET
                Michael HORNET 15 December 2017 22: 02 New
                0
                What is the meaning of good? A small relatively compact pistol with an 8-round magazine under a obviously weak cartridge. He is stillborn. The point in such a dead cartridge was a) because of the inability to design a normal pistol with an engaged bolt b) the understanding that only such a weak cartridge can be used in a Stechkin automatic pistol, namely they wanted to make it the main PDV pistol. But hopes for Stechkin did not materialize, and the miserable 300 J cartridge (a similarly powerful revolving cartridge 38 from the beginning of the 20th century) remained ... In the end, 9x21 appeared (initially Gyurza, then it became known as CP-1 Vector, in general - under a very strange pistol of Serdyukov), and then decided not to vomit out and take "like everyone else" cartridge 9 parabellum)) (9x19, standard NATO cartridge)
                1. Kibb
                  Kibb 16 December 2017 15: 04 New
                  0
                  Yes, all this is understandable, and perhaps even correct, but you probably noticed that I wrote a "service pistol"
                2. 4thParasinok
                  4thParasinok 13 January 2018 00: 35 New
                  0
                  Quote: Michael HORNET
                  He is stillborn.
                  no, you stillborn ode a mixture of different languages ​​in the login speaks about this, and not knowledge of weapons, weapons history and the lack of logic only confirms this ...
            4. 4thParasinok
              4thParasinok 13 January 2018 00: 16 New
              0
              Quote: Michael HORNET
              Replacing a TT with a PM was stupid and wrecking, a TT is easier to carry, more powerful, more flat and better penetrates

              1. For the smartest, explain why the competition for a new pistol in exchange for the TT-1936 was announced already in 33, which led to the adoption in 1939 of the Voevodin pistol for service, unfortunately they did not manage to establish mass production.
              2. Have you had to shoot from TT and PMa? I had to, and I won’t say that the TT is more convenient, but you first learn how to quickly remove it from the safety platoon, which is very important in battle. And its too tight and small button "ejector" store. Handle with a straight rear wall and a sharp edge at the transition from the side to the back. Personally, it crashes strongly into my hand when firing. The location of the trigger was ripped off the Colt, only the back is lower, which causes the arm to turn around. And the reason for this was the alteration of the trigger, it takes up more space than on the Colt. There is a problem with removing the store, it periodically wedges ... An inconvenient sight (too thin a cam and a narrow slot on the bar) PMa does not have these problems, so even by the convenience of using the PM it is much better than the TT. Loses only in accuracy, but at these distances it is not essential.
        2. PSih2097
          PSih2097 14 December 2017 12: 24 New
          0
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          In World War I there were no guns, but they were only long and uncomfortable, with manual reloading of the rifle.

          The modern stereotype of the First World War - rifle, revolver, saber and machine gun "Maxim" ...
        3. Monarchist
          Monarchist 14 December 2017 15: 41 New
          0
          Cat Kuzya, let me fix you up a bit: automatically the rifles appeared in PMV so-called Fedorov assault rifles, but for various reasons their mass production did not go.
          Submachine guns appeared at the end of WWI: Bergman 1918 and Italian Glisanti (?) I don’t remember exactly.
          And officers during the Great Patriotic War used machine guns, for example: “Tanker’s Cheat” Yanek, already in the officer rank, was dragging “daddy” or remember the movie “Liberation”, Commander Grechko was attacking with an automatic gun. and sometimes the battalion commanders, very often find themselves at the forefront, and there the Makar or now the Yarygin is also convenient as a bicycle for a hare.
          1. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya 14 December 2017 17: 39 New
            +1
            There were a scanty number of these Fedorov assault rifles, and they were not sent to the linear parts. They armed one company and sent it to the front-line tests, but it didn’t come to mass production, RI couldn’t even supply its troops with mosquitoes, what could be said about the development of a completely new weapon? As for the Bergman PP and the Italian PP, a very small number of them were also released. Bergman’s command post appeared at the front only in the spring of 1918, and they were armed not with line officers, but with soldiers of special assault battalions. So the influence of these automatic samples on the course of PMV can be ignored.
            1. Mooh
              Mooh 15 December 2017 00: 32 New
              0
              Fedorov assault rifles more than 2000 pieces were made.
              1. Kot_Kuzya
                Kot_Kuzya 15 December 2017 01: 48 New
                +3
                This is taking into account manufacturing after PMV. Serial production of Fedorov assault rifles went in the early 20s.
  7. otto meer
    otto meer 14 December 2017 10: 06 New
    0
    Here in what I agree with K. Mizokami, is:
    Comparison of the new PY pistol with the very old Browning Hi-Power looks very funny, but it can hardly be called objective.
    1. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok 13 January 2018 00: 41 New
      0
      Quote: otto meer
      Here's what I agree with K. Mizoki: The comparison of the new PY pistol with the very old Browning Hi-Power looks very funny, but it can hardly be called objective.
      Dak Yarygin will lose him in all respects, and first of all in reliability. It's not a novelty.
  8. Billgejtz
    Billgejtz 14 December 2017 10: 48 New
    +4
    use Beretta and Zig Sauer and talk about Russian weapons - this is a strong hutspa, well done
  9. Krasnyiy komissar
    Krasnyiy komissar 14 December 2017 11: 02 New
    +3
    Bullshit article. PM is not a copy of Walter PP, although their concept is similar. Our trunk is much more reliable than the German and a little more powerful than him, although the magazine latch at the Makar is made less convenient. The TT, too, was never a copy of the Colt M1911, but simply borrowed a Browning earring from it. In PY there is nothing special at all except the possibility of firing with 7N21 cartridges, but the pistol’s life drops sharply. Yarygin of early releases is not particularly reliable, as well as workmanship.
    1. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 14 December 2017 22: 21 New
      +1
      No need to cheat. So the author did not write that he is a copy. Do you communicate with yourself? He wrote - that based on the borrowing of some decisions, but in principle everything is different, and the principles are common already, Walter did not come up with a free shutter. TT is in its purest Browning automation, embodied in Colt 1911, without any addition, it is simply greatly simplified against Colt, there are many original technical solutions, this is NOT a copy, this is its own design but entirely using the principle of Browning automation (with earring) and under its cartridge. Yarygin is no different in reliability, neither early nor late, there is an error in the kinematics itself
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 15 December 2017 21: 33 New
        +5
        Quote: Michael HORNET
        So the author did not write that he is a copy.

        Judging by the translation of the article, the author wrote that PM is a copy of Walter PP.
    2. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok 13 January 2018 00: 49 New
      0
      Quote: Krasnyiy komissar
      The TT was also never a copy of the Colt M1911
      right, it was a rework of Tokarev’s carbine pistol made in the 30th and being a simplified copy of Colt’s native fuses were removed — they were not convenient to use with a pistol grip. The only innovation is the trigger in a separate block. Well, then they simply remade this “something” into a gun.
  10. Al4
    Al4 14 December 2017 11: 27 New
    +5
    "Russian ... brutal and bloody ... was a copy ... less attractive" - ​​the meaning of the article is to put these words in the minds of others. Six months later, you don’t remember where you read it. And the images - here they are))
  11. Dart
    Dart 14 December 2017 11: 55 New
    +4
    Author! Was there any point in translating a frankly diarrheal article? ....
  12. Cat Marquis
    Cat Marquis 14 December 2017 12: 38 New
    +3
    “Russian pistols were created for only one thing: for a brutal and bloody war”)

    Yeah, and the "western" weapon was created for a humane and bloodless war "... winked The information war is in its "beauty": in the West, when they talk about Russia and everything connected with it, they always use (without fail ") various epithets to emphasize the types of" threatening "," anti-democratic "," unfair "," wrong " , “anti-human”, “aggressive”, etc. character of everything that happens in Russia and what it “does.” This is now the obligatory rule of Western journalism.
  13. Colonel
    Colonel 14 December 2017 13: 05 New
    +4
    For example, there are no ............. indicator of the presence of a cartridge in the chamber ....

    By the ejector, you can clearly judge whether the cartridge was sent or not, what other indicator is needed?
    1. the47th
      the47th 15 December 2017 16: 21 New
      +1
      Some pistols have a separate. This is good for beginners if he does not know if he has a cartridge in the chamber or not. The ejector is too small you do not always pay attention to it. Although, domestic pistols are not made for beginners.
      1. Colonel
        Colonel 15 December 2017 16: 25 New
        +1
        Duc pus on the ejector is quite solid and the red mark is applied, the same one that is visible only with the sent cartridge. True, you need to look from the muzzle end. wink
        1. the47th
          the47th 15 December 2017 16: 46 New
          0
          And the indicator of the presence of a cartridge is just visible in the "ready" position, at least it should. And to inform the enemy whether you have a cartridge sent or not is wrong.
          1. Colonel
            Colonel 15 December 2017 21: 07 New
            +1
            Quote: the47th
            the indicator of the presence of the cartridge is just visible in the "ready" position

            No offense, if the barrel is taken "for preparation", which, in FIG, indicator is still needed?
            As it was customary in the Russian army: “Don’t take out without need, don’t invest without glory.”
  14. Berkut24
    Berkut24 14 December 2017 13: 35 New
    +1
    (“Russian pistols were created for only one thing: for a brutal and bloody war”

    Interestingly. According to the logic of the American, all these pistols licked from foreign samples, which served exclusively for peaceful, joyful, democratic and creative use? Why did the Russians, after licking, get so rude and aggressive again? Or did the Russians add something to the design of Western pistols so that they could be used for a bloody war?
  15. Monarchist
    Monarchist 14 December 2017 15: 11 New
    +1
    Quote: Nikolai R-PM
    From an engineering point of view, there is a big difference in “peeping” an interesting idea and how to implement it. Often one-on-one tearing up an idea even in a country with a common design school fails, because different production teams with different technological capabilities and approaches work with different design teams. In general, our Western “colleagues” are also actively “writing off” each other - remember how in the early 2010s Airbus helicopters (then Eurocopter) sued bell, because they believed that the latter had whistled the idea of ​​the h120 chassis and implemented it on bell430 ? About the confrontation samsung and apple generally keep quiet))
    The idea is in the air and can fall into different heads, all the salt - in their implementation.

    You said to the very point: some people read ideas, but everyone fulfills them to the best of their talent. For example: in China, to produce their own pistols. These were crude fakes of well-known systems, or even more crude correlations made up of separate nodes of various European systems .... Mauser’s stamps could have appeared on imitations of the Browning system, the inscriptions are reproduced not only with errors (inverted or distorted letters), but often represented a completely meaningless set of Latin letters "(A Beetle" Guide to small arms ") And now China is releasing its own pistols:" Model 51 ", Type 77, Type80, etc. But in these are ours: Makarov, Stechkin, PB, and why they are not accused of being copied. I have already given the following example: "the Uzbek car is Rawon, and this is Chevrolet Spark, it’s also Daevo and it’s also an Opel Cadet, but let me ask who has
    Whom did you slam through?
    1. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 14 December 2017 22: 31 New
      0
      Makarov was in vain adopted. The main reason for accepting this dead under-cartridge was, of course, Stechkin, who should have become the main army pistol, but it didn’t work, as a result of which the pistol theme in Russia is very neglected and ridiculous - there are SIX pistol cartridges in service and supplies and a bunch of not very the best pistols for them), each of which has very significant shortcomings. And this pile of junk instead of one or two rounds and a reasonable range of compatible pistols for them
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 15 December 2017 01: 52 New
        0
        Well, what are the 6 pistol cartridges that are on ARMED? Is it really 7,62 * 25, the Nagan cartridge, the 6,35-mm cartridge of Korovin systems are still in service? Only 9 * 18, 5,45 * 18 and 9 * 19 come to mind. Moreover, pistols under the last cartridge are almost never used, not to mention the advertised 9 * 21.
      2. Colonel
        Colonel 15 December 2017 21: 12 New
        +2
        Damn, what the hell did you say .... amazing. Let's talk about
        Quote: Michael HORNET
        SIX pistol cartridges in service and supply

        and we’ll talk further.
        1. Michael HORNET
          Michael HORNET 15 December 2017 21: 41 New
          0
          Let's
          5.45h18
          9.2h18 PM
          9.2x18 PMM (although there is compatibility with the previous one, but it is still the reverse and these are two different cartridges, in fact, relate to each other in approximately 9x19 and 9 major)
          9x19 (in different versions)
          9x21 (used by anyone and also and how)
          SP-4
          Count yourself? Come on, you’ve already been taught
          1. Michael HORNET
            Michael HORNET 15 December 2017 21: 46 New
            +1
            We don’t think that the 7,62 Nagan is still almost alive at the VOKHRA, some 7,62TT still sometimes, 380 (9x17 Browning short) chop.
            The main cartridge by the way is 9x19, in theory. But how is everything in this world ....
          2. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya 16 December 2017 01: 25 New
            +1
            PMM is not used, it is an experimental cartridge, you can just as well mutter that the 6,5 * 50 cartridge was in service with the Red Army in 1940. The SP-4 cartridge is generally a special cartridge that was USED for a single sample of pistols. About 9 * 19 and 9 * 21 it’s generally funny to discuss. They are NOT in the ARMY and will not be there for 10-20 years at least, and most likely they will not be, since their development is a kind of dough cut.
            Are you a foreigner? Or another reincarnation of the carabiner?
            The main cartridge by the way is 9x19, in theory. But how is everything in this world ....
            The BASIC cartridge for pistols in the RUSSIAN army is the cartridge 9 * 18.
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. tracer
                tracer 25 December 2017 02: 16 New
                0
                I agree with you all 200 percent. Precisely as an active practicing shooter. I have a hope that gsh 18 will be redone for the concept of a quick bullet, and then the gun will turn out great.
              2. 4thParasinok
                4thParasinok 13 January 2018 01: 17 New
                0
                Quote: Michael HORNET
                There are SIX pistol cartridges in service
                Well then, in the USA there are more than a couple of dozen of these cartridges, and so what? THE ARTICLE IS SPEECHED ABOUT GUNS STANDING ON THE ARMY OF THE ARMY, and not CHOP. But you don’t understand this, you only hear yourself. Yes, and you are not familiar with the army, otherwise you would have known that even in the landing there were only PMs and a 9x18 cartridge, and they only saw 9x19 in pictures, like the pistols for them. Well, if you don’t like that they don’t carry you on this site, then no one is holding you here, the collective farm is voluntary and your absence will not be upset. just like most of us.
    2. Nikolay R-PM
      Nikolay R-PM 15 December 2017 05: 32 New
      +3
      Quote: Monarchist
      ... Latin letters "(A Beetle" Handbook of small arms ") ...


      As I remember now, this thick green book with golden stampings of pistols on the cover. She stood on her father's bookshelf
  16. asr55
    asr55 14 December 2017 18: 27 New
    +1
    You might think that Glock and Beretta were created to solve peaceful problems and not for a bloody war. a pin to remove touches.
    1. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok 13 January 2018 01: 19 New
      0
      Well, a glock for the police was created, not for the army ...
  17. datur
    datur 15 December 2017 01: 04 New
    0
    our pistols were created to create communism !!! wink
  18. TTX
    TTX 15 December 2017 03: 50 New
    +1
    The best gun is a machine gun laughing
  19. Monarchist
    Monarchist 15 December 2017 14: 03 New
    0
    Mizokami either forgot or did not know about the first Soviet pistol of the Korovin system TK6,35mm created in 1926. "Designer S. A. Korovin:" The designer has been a youth for a number of years, he worked at the Browning factory. When working on a pistol, he used the Browning system of 1906, but used a cartridge with an increased charge of gunpowder and 8 rounds intervened in the store, and 6 rounds in Browning. "As you can see, this is another gun at the same time.
    By the way, the front-line soldiers evaluated it as a poop and preferred to throw it away and replace it with a TT or a trophy or, in extreme cases, with a Nagan revolver.
    They said on TV: in Leningrad’s condemnation in 1943, the Varyag pistol was created under the TT cartridge under the model of the popular Browning pistol of 1935, but for a number of reasons: the lack of production facilities and the prohibition of NPOs, it did not go into series. In 1948 the PM was designed, it is believed that L. A. Beria did a lot to ensure that Makarov was adopted
    1. Kibb
      Kibb 15 December 2017 14: 56 New
      +1
      About 70% of modern pistols have Browning solutions in their design

      I imagine the front-line soldier with a shopping mall quite
    2. beeper
      beeper 17 December 2017 06: 34 New
      +1
      “Initiative from below”, in honor of some “revudates” —a model of Browning of 1935, that is, “Browning” “High Power” almost, but with a free shutter - it’s something under the powerful pistol cartridge 7,62 mm TT winked , in the amount of 15 (14) copies, for distributing gifts to party nomenclature (in the event of a Nazi breakthrough in Leningrad, for suicide? For no other reason, these "self-propelled guns" were not suitable, well, perhaps, the "shooting accident" at the shooting range after a small number of shots, the bolt breaks off and flies, by inertia, directly into the lobeshnik to the secretary of the district committee, with grave consequences, it seems that one of these “gift” pistols collapsed (it seems that the “heads flew” from the “distinguished ones to their own head”, unfortunate designers ... therefore blockade "a la br aunings "and they were withdrawn from circulation, in the exposition of the Museum of Defense of Leningrad, as if there was one such pistol?).
      Not Beria, but Nikolai Fedorovich Makarov himself did a very, very much (he even slept during the contest only 4 hours a day, without days off and holidays, therefore he managed to shoot and debug twice as many prototypes as his competitors ...), to win yes ! And he did not win by “pull”, but naturally and honestly surpassed the pistols of all his rivals!
      The "omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent" Lavrenty Beria had enough worries with the "atomic project" to engage in "pistol fuss" ?! smile
      Korovinsky TK was just designed for the civilian market, but since the revolutionary freemen ended and weapons were actively seized from the population, the “servants of the people” were armed with pistols of the TK and ordinary small soldiers and junior officers didn’t give out these small-caliber pistols, unless by chance could get to them ...
      hi
      1. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 17 December 2017 18: 58 New
        0
        Quote: pishchak
        , but since the revolutionary free-will ended and the weapons of the population were intensively withdrawn,

        Oddly enough, but it was no longer Stalin's time, but Khrushchev's.
        1. beeper
          beeper 17 December 2017 20: 03 New
          +1
          Dear Bad_gr, strangely enough, but in the 20s and 30s, for the "weapon under the line (yes, just rotting in the house)" the "house owner" was "shot" (yes, Khrushchev was among party functionaries at that time and even , as they say (is it true?), he worked in the retinue of I. Stalin on the role of a sort of “Friday clown” ... but time was still not Khrushchev's! wink ) Therefore, the shopping mall did not become accessible to the broad masses of people, as was possible with similar "short-barrels" under tsarism; the Soviet authorities strictly followed this and kept their "punishing sword" at the ready.
          Shortly after the war, one of the villagers reported to my grandfather that he had allegedly hidden the machine gun Maxim in the garden, so the “watchful organs” and the garden had rummaged up and down, the grandfather and all the households young and old, they tried to interrogate .... And in Khrushchev (and early Brezhnev, right up to the early 70s), my grandfather had two hunting rifles in the pantry at home (as it’s now fashionable to say “unregistered”), and not only him - at all rural weddings and wires to the army, the drunken villagers fearlessly shot and saluted from these ru s, and even from the threshold in the garden "babahnut" - lisovina there to drive away or bred at the rate of shoot muskrats, it was commonplace yes ... Even some of my comrades in Khrushchev’s time had houses of small-caliber “TOZ” at home, the guns and pistols of Margolin — the small-caliber guns were not considered weapons — then, under Brezhnev, they screwed up all this Khrushchev’s free-gun with guns and “small caliber!
          So, if you "specify", then only if you are sure that you are right wink
          hi
          1. Bad_gr
            Bad_gr 18 December 2017 11: 13 New
            +1
            Quote: pishchak
            So, if you "specify", then only if you are sure that you are right wink

            So I was sure that he was right, because such information came across. For example, there was a film about Mayakovsky, so he had several pistols and only one of them was registered.
            Of course, Mayakovsky is not every citizen, and they could have lied in the film, but the information that in the post-war years unregistered trunks were on hand came across more than once.
            1. beeper
              beeper 18 December 2017 21: 17 New
              +1
              In the post-war years, a lot of weapons were on hand and in coppice fields, many front-line soldiers brought with them from Germany, and army officers and policemen always had personal weapons with them. It was.
              But we were talking about the Korovinsky shopping center, which was conceived by the designer not only for party functionaries and generals, but also with a market focus on the mass consumers of civilian short-barrels (as was the case under tsarism, whoever wanted and had money could buy any liked “barrel” from the gun assortment store or, if one was not available at that time, then order from the catalog, for example, the "workers' guard" and thus armed in anticipation of the performances of 1905-1907) ...
              hi
    3. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok 13 January 2018 01: 37 New
      0
      Quote: Monarchist
      Mizokami either forgot or did not know about the first Soviet pistol of the Korovin system TK6,35mm created in 1926. "Designer S. A. Korovin:" The designer has been a youth for a number of years, he worked at the Browning factory. When working on a pistol, he used the Browning system of 1906, but used a cartridge with an increased charge of gunpowder and 8 rounds intervened in the store, and 6 rounds in Browning. "As you can see, this is another gun at the same time.
      Well, actually the TC was torn off the Mauser, and not from the Browning. Mauser M1910:
      Only the barrel locking system was changed, taken from a beret. and everything else is just a maser.
  20. Monarchist
    Monarchist 15 December 2017 14: 18 New
    0
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    Well, what are the 6 pistol cartridges that are on ARMED? Is it really 7,62 * 25, the Nagan cartridge, the 6,35-mm cartridge of Korovin systems are still in service? Only 9 * 18, 5,45 * 18 and 9 * 19 come to mind. Moreover, pistols under the last cartridge are almost never used, not to mention the advertised 9 * 21.

    As far as I know, the following cartridges are produced here: 5,45x18,5,45x39, 5,66x39 (for the submarine), 7,63x39, 7,62x54R, 9,18 and 9,17 (kurtz), 9,19, allegedly appeared 9,21 alterations. About XNUMX "gyurza" I do not know whether it is used or not
    1. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 15 December 2017 21: 54 New
      +1
      "Significantly large ammunition stock" released
      9x21 is used and how it is - it is essentially the main cartridge of the FSB and FSO.
      9x19 was declared the main cartridge, 7N21 and 7N31 were made for this caliber, pistols were made ... However, things are progressing very poorly, because all pistols have certain flaws, because they were made without understanding HOW to do it. As a result, GSH-18 cannot be brought to mind this way, unable to think already, Strizh sent them abroad together with its creator, P. Yarygin is unreliable from birth and has not been finalized for 20 years, no one wants to take it voluntarily, in the last iteration he lost a two-row exit - apparently they hope so to push through, although Lebedev’s pistol, which KK wants to make the main pistol, instead of all the others, is replacing it
    2. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya 16 December 2017 01: 30 New
      0
      Oh yeah!

      , 45x39, 5,66x39 (for the submarine), 7,63x39, 7,62x54R

      These cartridges are of course pistol !!! wassat
  21. Monarchist
    Monarchist 15 December 2017 14: 19 New
    +1
    Quote: Nikolai R-PM
    Quote: Monarchist
    ... Latin letters "(A Beetle" Handbook of small arms ") ...


    As I remember now, this thick green book with golden stampings of pistols on the cover. She stood on her father's bookshelf

    I have a black cover
    1. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 15 December 2017 22: 16 New
      +1
      Quote: Monarchist
      Quote: Nikolai R-PM
      Quote: Monarchist
      ... Latin letters "(A Beetle" Handbook of small arms ") ...


      As I remember now, this thick green book with golden stampings of pistols on the cover. She stood on her father's bookshelf

      I have a black cover

      I have it in brown. The cover shows a target and a list of weapons (revolvers, pistols, ...)
      1. beeper
        beeper 17 December 2017 05: 54 New
        +1
        "Ne ssporte boggle Estonian guys ..." The first editions (beginning of the 80s) of the Zhukovsky book "Pistols and Revolvers" were green-coated, with gold stamping. I also wrote this to myself, completely "for good luck (I wrote letters of guarantee to all the Union branches, even to Tashkent, but they only responded positively from Kiev)", via Book-by-Mail, as in bookstores, including in The War Book, "it simply wasn’t, the scarce book turned out to be, but it already was in our reader. I remember my thrill when I first picked up yes
        It was then that it was replicated multi-colored ... especially during the "disaster" years.
        hi
  22. the47th
    the47th 15 December 2017 16: 05 New
    +2
    So High-Power automation circuitry is used in almost all modern pistols. The second scheme: M1911 - only in 1911 pistols, which are also many. The Walther P38 scheme uses only Beretta 92 and its clones (CP-1 to the heap). The remaining schemes are a drop in the ocean.
  23. tracer
    tracer 16 December 2017 16: 11 New
    0
    In my opinion, TT is a gun undeservedly forgotten for the army. The effectiveness of his firing accuracy with the highest standards of pistol accuracy. As an active shooter, the athlete does not feel much difference in the accuracy of this pistol by 25 meters using Glock 34 9 and Smith Wesson MP 9. There is a difference in ChZ Shadow 9, but there is a dance with a smooth descent like oil. For a combat pistol, this is unacceptable. Although between them almost 60 years of age difference. TT is more compact and with it is easier to aim at small (by pistol standards, the target). And in my opinion, the beautiful FN 5/7 combat pistol uses the same concept as the TT of the fast and steady trajectory of a bullet new caliber 5.7 / 28. A lethal action is achieved due to the huge speed of the bullet. Pops from a shot are much smaller than the standard 9/19 Parabelum caliber. Now, if GSh 18 is remade for this caliber ....
    1. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 16 December 2017 22: 08 New
      0
      Well, you can immediately see the person who shoots jealously, but does not read the Beetle)
      TT if it weren’t for the stupid military, it would now become exactly the same iconic gun as 1911, would have grown with tuning and design improvements, and if we left 7,62x25 in service, we would now have a single excellent cartridge for both MPE and pistols, and range of sizes, from subcompact to full-size and silent (traditional design with a silencer, the experiment with SP-4, as we see, practically failed in fact). To get a silent cartridge based on 7,62x25, it is enough to use a 10 g bullet from 7,62x39
      1. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 13 January 2018 01: 41 New
        0
        Quote: Michael HORNET
        Well, you can immediately see the person who shoots jealously, but does not read the Beetle)
        you forgot to write in the dash ... in the dash and I shot from the TT. The bullet itself is more accurate, but the gun is worse, and the gun is worse.
  24. beeper
    beeper 17 December 2017 05: 14 New
    +1
    Not so long ago, on the Web, I was tempted by the title of the article (about analysis, comparison of the combat capabilities of the latest Russian and American nuclear submarines, and the likelihood of their survival in the mutual "confrontation") and began to read it, but even my modest knowledge in this area was enough to understand -I read an utter turbidity-kalamut ... By my perfectionist habit I already read everything to the end, although I spat (figuratively, of course). And who was the author and the "all-knowing expert submariner"? The question is rhetorical, it was the same "broad specialist in weapons" -American Kyle with Japanese surname Mizokami yes Honestly, from that time I started to read Kyle’s “expert opinions” and didn’t read them, although I met them on the Web ... and that’s what got on me ... and again, after reading the Mizokami’s “writings”, such an “aftertaste” as like ... have you eaten up?winked
    I will allow myself a few "let off steam", so he pissed me off smile
    With the aesthetic tastes of this, let's call it “politically correct”, the Japanese-American could be argued in absentia over the imagining, pompous Kyle, “utilitarianism and unattractiveness” of the Soviet TT, which our gun supposedly “... corresponded to the general Soviet military aesthetics. How and most of the other types of weapons of Soviet development (Apparently, Mizokami, with such tricks, “subtly hints” that Soviet weapons, for the most part, were and are unattractive in appearance ?! winked ), "
    Thus, the TT pistol is handsome in its weaponry and was quite "trendy" in the global military aesthetics of its time. yes - concise and formidable, set by the best creations of John Moses Browning, and this aesthetics is still not shameful to imitate wink . It is interesting what the "aesthetic" Japanese American will say about the "general Soviet military aesthetics" and the "utilitarian unattractiveness" of the appearance of Tokarev "sister gans" -Browning pistols of the American "Colt" -M1903 and M1911 ??? smile
    I already wrote in my comments on Topvar.ru that for me the statements of individual commentators about allegedly copying the Kalashnikov assault rifle from Schmeisser's Sturmgever serve as a marker of pure weapon ignorance, but the statements about Makarov’s alleged copying are exactly the same marker of dense stupidity Walter "PP (PPK)! yes And the quasi “expert” Kyle also draws a “phrase” to his statement - “The Soviet pistol, known by the UNOFFICIAL nickname“ Makarov ”, was a copy of the Walther PPK pistol”, although it is known that the OFFICIAL name (but not “nickname”! ))) our pistol- "PM-Makarov Pistol"! Not to mention the fundamental differences in the design (the differences in the general concept, design approaches, and in the design of the trigger mechanisms are clearly visible!) .... With mathematics, the Japanese American also has 4 additional cartridges in a dull way (in 12 cartridge magazine PMM) in relation to 8 cartridges in the PM magazine from 50% turned into 33% - I’m not at all clear where this notebook heater “drew” them winked ??
    All pistols in the world, with very few exceptions (some sports, signal, "dirringers", ...), in one way or another use the "old ideas" of John Moses Browning yes , and Soviet (Russian) weapons designers used them (for the second century already!) and will be used for a long time! But Mizokamam is not aware smile ?!
    The same thing with the long-suffering Yarigin PY-Pistol, it also creatively uses both "old ideas" and relatively new ones (although the construction and appearance of this pistol, in my opinion, is accordingly complicated and eclectic, not to mention small details and "Lips" store). I am especially touched by the “safety” “garbage bin urn” of the shutter-casing in the area of ​​the trigger and the various milled “high-precision antennae” on the emphasis-chamber of the barrel and the all-metal frame with the shutter — you can immediately see the work of an athlete struggling in design (although the “transformation - the castration of Margolin’s beautiful sporting pistol into the kuruzuyu and the unpretentious “Drill” is by no means considered a design and, moreover, an independent project of a mature designer! IMHO) ... I must say right away that Mizokami is absolutely wrong p cartridge in the chamber and the reset lever with cocking at PYA there is! And the Browning "High Power" next to the UE did not stand close, except perhaps with its under-barrel copy cam (and didn’t the "factory" Didier Sev design it for HP, instead of the "earring"?))).
    Summing up, the title of the Mizokamian article speaks for itself-Kyle de facto admits, directly, “Freud’s reservation”, that all these new-fangled little things-drukes, “modular pistol systems” - “Glocks”, “Berettas”, “Walters”, M17 (Zig-Sauers P320), in his “expert opinion”, are not quite suitable for a brutal and bloody war, but only “TT”, “Makarov” and “PYa” are suitable (for Makarov’s pistols, still “stagnant” Soviet production, I absolutely agree with him! yes )! Well, why did the Japanese-American in every possible way “trim” our pistols in order to come to such a conclusion, complimentary to all of us smile ?!
    PS Since they raised a "funny" question, why is the opinion of some "common man" so important for some of us, why such a "universal ecstasy" or grief over whether they praise our weapons or bawl ?!
    Recently, I read, including in the Topvar.ru tape, that some American guest performer carries out shootings from domestic weapons and is allegedly satisfied, every "machine gun, rifle, pistol that shoots out (at the expense of the receiving side ???) praises .. .. well, praises and praises, why make a sensation out of it, as if without this boast our weapons will cease to shoot or be the best in the world wink , because for every sneeze you won’t get over it! Health to all of us and, nevertheless, a lot of EARBELESS to the amusing "bona fide retellers" of the Mizokamian "gadgets"!
    hi
    1. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 17 December 2017 15: 24 New
      0
      The problem is not in appearance, but in any reliability arising from incorrectly calculated kinematics and unlocking the shutter too early. Plus jambs with a supply path. As a result, the correct idea to get away from the single-row outlet of the store was a fiasco, like the gun itself, which no one wants to buy voluntarily)))
      The best domestic pistol GSh-18, also not brought to mind, devoid of spare parts, factory managers are infinitely stupid, the leadership is even worse, instead of finalizing and working with customers - spitting and one desire to "get the budget." It is clear that with such an attitude "will not take off."
      PM and his cartridge was a mistake in itself, regardless of Makarov himself. Moreover, then they brought the gun to mind for another fifteen years
      Rejection of 7,62x25 was a big stupid thing, the cartridge would still be competitive, and both in pistols and MPE
      1. Michael HORNET
        Michael HORNET 17 December 2017 15: 31 New
        0
        PMM by the way is now "fenced" and anyone can buy it (bought by law in the legal entity naturally)
      2. beeper
        beeper 17 December 2017 21: 25 New
        +2
        Dear Mikhail HORNET, I do not consider the PM pistol and its cartridge to be a mistake — its adoption was dictated by the front-line experience of using personal weapons, including the accumulated negative about the TT with its excessively powerful pistol cartridge, according to the memoirs of the war veterans, “stitched”, right through, with a pistol TT Fritz was able to shoot back and "didn’t want to die (" forgive us Germans, and you, Adolfushko, I'm sorry! ")))", and if you hit a 9mm bullet (for example, from the German "Parabellum" or Walter P-38) the ability to return fire was immediately lost! yes So not only because of the low reliability of the TT surrogate military pistols, our front-line fighters tried to acquire trophy pistols, but also because of the weak stopping effect of the TT7,62X25mm cartridge! yes
        In addition, as a result of extensive combat experience, it came to be understood that a gun is only an auxiliary weapon on the front line, so it’s a “symbol of power”, and to equip officers in battle, a submachine gun is also needed, and with a PCA in hand, on the same line with your fighters (the famous propaganda photo "political instructor with a gun in front of the chain" is most likely a staged photo, not from the front line: ... ???) ", less likely to become a priority target for enemy shooters (not without reason front-line commanders began to carry pistols behind their backs, not in sight yes ) ... The PM pistol and the PM9X18mm cartridge fully corresponded to the post-war concept of personal weapons, especially since a variety of pistols of the same future PM were developed for the competition, for cartridges and calibers from 7,62 to 9 mm, but as a result the choice fell on Makarovsky 9mm pistol! In the initial version, the PM was redesigned, but then, by the joint efforts of designers and manufacturers, they “brought” it to the necessary condition, although this took some time. The foundation laid by Nikolai Fedorovich was very solid, so the gun turned out as it should, a good gun is my favorite smile !
        The Rook hastily adopted by the Russian Armed Forces from sports designers is not so bad, the trouble is that the PJs didn’t "bring to mind" (for me it was yet another disappointing news from comments on this article that a reliable double-row cartridge was released in PJ they switched to “rebuilding in one row” ... is this, in my opinion, a sign of the creative and professional impotence of the “responsible” weapons designers? winked )
        With all due respect to Gryazev and Shipunov, as the creators of air guns and ATGMs, if the "best domestic pistol" is the "GSH-18" air pistol, which, in your own words, they, as creators and leaders of the design bureaus, are not bothered to "bring to mind", did not think out spare parts, but only authoritatively (on your authority gained in aircraft armament and anti-tank guided missiles!) "tore off their laurels (" and you, the operators, as you want "?)", then it’s just a spit on their part and no grief managers are able to correct such a disregard! yes Personally, as a mechanical engineer, technologist and toolmaker, as a reserve tank officer and, just like a gunner, I don’t like the GSh-18 from any side, I have the impression that Gryazev and Shipunov not only "spat", but also mocked the Russian "users" of their straightforward imperfection-freak, which I would never have picked up, you’ll excuse me! IMHO
        PS I completely agree with you about the cartridge case from the TT7,62X25 cartridge — if you re-run the dulce for mounting a pointed bullet of a smaller caliber, then, probably, with the appropriate desire and capabilities (selection of a bullet, gunpowder, capsule composition and, probably, additional fastening of the capsule), on its basis it is possible to get a good cartridge for the domestic PDV in no way inferior to the same "fifties Seven", maybe winked
        hi
        1. Was mammoth
          Was mammoth 17 December 2017 23: 33 New
          +1
          Quote: pishchak
          ... the famous propaganda photo "political instructor with a gun in front of the chain" is, most likely, a staged photo, not from the front line: ...

          The photo was taken 12.07.42/70/XNUMX by photographer M. Alpert at the time of the counterattack. At the same time, the camera, which was used to take the picture, was broken by a fragment. In the photo, the younger political instructor A. Eremenko. He died. In the mid-XNUMXs, they wrote about this photo when it became known who this "battalion commander" really is.
          1. beeper
            beeper 18 December 2017 02: 26 New
            +1
            Dear Was Mammoth! Thank you for your clarification!
            Not everything is so simple. I well remember these disputes (on the Central Television and in the Izvestia and Nedelya press newspapers, it seems Literaturnaya Gazeta also contributed to the discussion and guesses about who it could be — everyone saw their “battalion commander”) mid-70s about the person depicted in this photo (which, by the way, became the prototype of the monument) there were several likely candidates, but they agreed on the version of the "political instructor" (probably because the "little Earth" Secretary General L. Brezhnev was a kind of "political instructor" at the front? )
            Yes, the daredevil photographer quite seriously told how it seemed that a minute before the start of the attack he ran ahead of our trenches, lay down, hid "behind the pebble" and prepared to shoot how our fighters would rise under machine-gun fire, that is, where the first (not Considering a bold photocore, of course) he will rise to his full height and invitingly wave his gun (ay, Hitler machine gunners, where are you, Hitler snipers ...?) a company commander (shouldn't a battalion commander be in his command post to lead the battle?) , oops, the political officer — he waited for a spectacular, “picture-like” angle and managed to flick the shutter of the captured watering can, and here the camera was shattered by a splinter (he himself wasn’t wounded, it’s fragments, because they don’t take it apart at a close gap, they are all holes in it or it was a “crazy” fragment, sniper-accurate, just the way it was needed — it broke the camera, but didn’t catch the hands of the “storyteller ?!”, but the picture miraculously survived .... and then the “political instructor”, after more than three decades, probably nali, after long, long disputes and negotiations?
            I remember how the experienced front-line guys laughed at such, more often broadcast, bold stories of all kinds of rear-guard “ex-former” people, they said that they had never seen photojournalists at the front in the front trench, and even more so under fire and during attacks ... maybe I didn’t come across those front-line soldiers, not the “staff” ones, but the trenches, or is it a desperately brave tailor ... didn’t the Alpert come across? Yes, and, like, military photocores (the same famous Natalya Bode) frankly said that they came to photograph the battlefield and the broken equipment when the battles died down and the battlefield remained with us, for a long time they were looking for a profitable-spectacular angle, experimenting with the poses given for shooting warriors, and then for these photos, replicated in Pravda and the Red Star, they were awarded military orders — Natalya had been wondering all the time someone else’s evil look and some kind of enemy rustle when she, accompanied by personal protection from scouts and sappers, on the Kursk Bulge photographed a wrecked “Tiger”, suffered such fear, already, probably, the hair was moving ... but the editorial task was carried out, here’s the “wrecked" Tiger (in the movie "Wild Honey" it is) "" and received the award (did the award receive and survive if the brave armor-piercers who defeated this thick-armored "pan-European" beast "sent by" the Germans who did not want to fight and kill "in a cruel battle?) ... this is about a" brutal and bloody war ", not food neither to the Japanese-American Kyle, nor to some New Urengoy schoolboys who are opportunistically repenting before the descendants of Hitler's murderers and villains!
      3. cannabis
        cannabis 18 December 2017 11: 39 New
        +1
        At all the training grounds of the Soviet Army along the roads flaunted shields calling "Hit the target with the first shot." This was taught, but only the front-line soldiers knew the essence of the call, who knew that the first time the TT would fire, but the second time it was unknown. In the 60s, Sergei Smirnov’s book was published, the Brest Fortress, which repeatedly mentions the remains of heroes with a TT pistol in their hand, with cartridges in the store and a jammed shutter. This is the main disadvantage of the TT (except for the loss of the store and involuntary shooting when the pistol falls.) The automation system of the TT is such that after a shot several different force vectors act on the sleeve at once. The ejector pulls back, the trigger pushes forward through the hammer, the barrel dropping down pulls the sleeve down. As a result, the projectile being in the recess of the capsule prevents both the ejector and the barrel from completing their work. That is why every second fired liner TT liner has torn damage to the capsule. In the methodological literature for investigators and operative officers of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, caution is taken when inspecting crime scenes with TT pistols discovered because of the possibility of spontaneous shooting. But with the PM pistol, such difficulties do not arise. PMU would be a more authentic barrel and it would be just wonderful. And do not need these 18 charging stores! How to run if you have a heavy piece of iron knocking on your thigh or heart? German designers, by the way, understood the essence of the problem and at Parabellum and Walter, the trunks moved along their axes, without reduction.
        1. beeper
          beeper 18 December 2017 20: 09 New
          +2
          That's right, dear cannabis! You have a surprisingly clear understanding of the essence of the matter and a real idea of ​​what a pistol should be like, something you rarely see today yes ! ...
          The experienced front-line soldiers, not only officers of the ground forces, but also the pilots whom I once asked about the TT, spoke of this pistol with a vigorous little wolf, and the TT never heard praise from them ... I never heard any "interjections" and "expressions" I quote, but these unflattering assessments contrasted very much with the official dithyrambs (which, a patriotic Soviet boy, struck me unpleasantly until I figured out what was happening). In the “Tula Tokarev”, the mainspring (unsuccessfully located inside the trigger) also quickly settled, which contributed to a weak pricking of the capsule and misfires, and the return spring often did not send the shutter-guard to its extreme forward position ... the gun was very sensitive to clogging. A poke in the back of an escorted captive “tongue” with a TT pistol (“a schnelle-schnelle!”))), With a cocked trigger and a cartridge in the chamber, as they liked to show in feature films, in reality often led to an involuntary shot due to the breakdown of a worn out cock with a whisper, such cases are described in police literature, as they led to the unintentional injury of an arrested citizen ...
          Best regards hi
          1. Michael HORNET
            Michael HORNET 21 December 2017 10: 35 New
            0
            http://www.docme.ru/doc/355005/yugoslavskij-tt-po
            -imeni
            Yugoslav TT - almost brought to mind)
            The stories about the "low stopping effect" of a TT pistol do not have a serious scientific basis) in a battle this can happen ABSOLUTELY with any pistol - for not a single pistol in the world (well, maybe except for the most powerful hunting type 454 Kasull, 50 AE and 500 SV and them like) is not able to disable the target if the bullet did not damage the live rocket launcher. Especially primitive PMF bullets of military cartridges. In addition, 9x19 is absolutely not equal to 9x18 PM in its precisely lethal and stopping action. The identification of all 9 mm cartridges is a mistake, 9 mm cartridges are very radically different from each other, and it is precisely on the scale of their energy. According to the results of the war, it was PROVEN that the ammunition 7,62x25, 9x19 and 45 AKPs are equal in their effectiveness on the target, which is not surprising - their muzzle energy is at the same level (about 470 joules). Modern cartridges have become more powerful, and 9x19 can now be made and MUCH more powerful (9 major) than it was originally (and the rest would have caught up, they just lost popularity). Naturally, the payment for firing with powerful cartridges became more frequent breakdowns and a shorter resource and the impossibility of using such cartridges in pistols not suitable for him. In addition, there are a lot of frank lies in the tales about the unreliability of the TT or the misappropriation of the pistol’s shortcomings as improper handling of it (let me remind you that until recently nobody was taught to remove a finger from the trigger)
            1. Michael HORNET
              Michael HORNET 21 December 2017 12: 16 New
              0
              A sufficiently dispersed 7,62 (in fact 7,92 mm) bullet to a speed of about 500 m / s (which is achievable on modern gunpowders in a sleeve of 7,62x25) with a mass of about 6 g has a very good kill and sufficient stopping effect - you just need a bullet competently design
            2. beeper
              beeper 23 December 2017 03: 08 New
              +1
              Dear Michael HORNET, there is no strength to look at your bona fide delusions winked - no offense, but the stopping effect of a bullet depends on how much of its energy it gives off to a living "target" yes
              According to the results of the war, in domestic pistols they switched to a caliber of 9 mm (in fact, the PM cartridge has a bullet diameter of 9,2 mm, since our caliber is determined by the distance between the rifling fields, and not by the rifling, so the TT cartridge bullet is also from memory , I am lazy to look exactly-7,85-7,92mm, and the 5,45X39 cartridge bullet is about 5,62mm — somewhere so, check it yourself if you are interested if you are so interested in cartridges))).
              A 9mm PM bullet has a better stopping effect on an unprotected target at a pistol battle distance than a 7,62mm TT bullet, because it gives it much more of its energy, as they say: TT- “sews”, and “Makarov” - “muffles” .. .You are sorry for this ABC. (We are talking about whole-shell bullets of cartridges that are widely used in the army.)
              hi
              PS The unreliability of the TT is by no means tales, the trigger (its spring) and the return spring of the shutter-casing are structurally very badly solved - the Browning ideas of F.V. Tokarev were "re-decided" ill-conceived. And the store button has become a kind of evil rock. In the aggregate of all the shortcomings revealed during ten years of operation (so there is no question of bikes! smile ) and insufficient, according to the military, the TT store’s capacity was seriously planned to be taken out of service and a competition was announced in which Voevodin’s pistol won, but the outbreak of war did not allow the rearmament of the army to begin with these pistols!
              Yes, I'll blow it to you, there’s a bike about the trigger spring, that in the first, tested, author’s samples, it was made according to old recipes, from piece "white metal", which did not settle for a long time, but ordinary spring-loaded steel steels went into the series request !
      4. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 13 January 2018 01: 54 New
        0
        Quote: Michael HORNET
        The best domestic pistol GSh-18
        OTs-27 is better, and bring to mind ...
        Quote: Michael HORNET
        The rejection of 7,62x25 was a big nonsense; the cartridge would still be competitive

        for a shooting range and shootouts on banks, yes, like a military, no. As an army, 7,62x22 is better suited (if this is left behind). In terms of efficiency, even PM surpasses it, but if you take the sum of the characteristics, then the best cartridges for the army are .40 S&W or .357 SIG.
  25. Dr. Bermental
    Dr. Bermental 18 December 2017 20: 05 New
    0
    they just started to fear and cave in .... - the camber is fixed !! ) although at the first stage our only engaged in copying - the same TT was licked with the Colt 1911 Gouverment legend of weapons and handsome ... and if you shudder soberly then everyone licks the best from each other - we have them and we have it ...
    1. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 21 December 2017 10: 38 New
      0
      TT was not "lapped." It was a creative rework of the original design. The principles are preserved, but everything is implemented differently.
      If we talk about "slime" - this is for example the Yugoslav M57 relative to the TT, which was made independently, without the use of technical documentation of the USSR
      And as you can see, he lived much longer
      1. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 13 January 2018 01: 56 New
        0
        Quote: Michael HORNET
        TT was not "lapped." It was a creative rework of the original design. The principles are preserved, but everything is implemented differently.
        well, nuda, blessed are the believers ... Even See the developer of Colt 1911 John Browning in subsequent works was forced to abandon the scheme of automation using grooves on the barrel and the shutter using the barrel to fix the earring, since this scheme was patented by Colt, but Tokarev did not rip off but only "reworked" ... handsome however.
  26. seacap
    seacap 14 February 2018 17: 24 New
    0
    Bullshit, yet another attempt to humiliate us and show our failure, pure propaganda for his unstable brains.