Military Review

Japanese sword: deeper and deeper ... (part of 1)

222
I squeeze the sword -
He is a true friend of thunders -

And ready to fight,
Brave and stubborn.
Other for nothing
They spend their days
Brave spirit
They will not understand.
Cao Ji, translation by L.E. Cherkassky


Not so long ago, an article appeared on VO about samurai swords and how briefly and comprehensively everything was written in it, I liked it. However, the topic is so extensive and entertaining that it probably makes sense to continue it in the direction of deepening and viewing from different angles. Well, we should start by trying to find out why it is so interesting.


Chinese swords found in Japanese Kofun burials. Interesting ring on the handle. In Europe, ring-shaped tips in the middle ages had swords from Ireland. (Metropolitan Museum, New York)

First of all, the European sword otherwise just has nothing to compare. And the comparative information is the most interesting. Second: they did not come across the battlefield, so any comparison remains quite speculative, and therefore ... accessible to everyone. Finally, people of the West have always been attracted by the culture of the East, as its complete antipode. In addition, there are a number of related circumstances.
• Japanese sword was used relatively recently.
• Japanese swords have come down to us in very good condition, while European ones are poorly preserved. Not so with samurai swords: a sword at the age of several centuries to a layman looks like a new one.
• The traditional art of Japanese smiths gunsmiths preserved from the Middle Ages. The mastery of European, in fact, lost.
• Up to our time, and preserved the techniques of combat with Japanese swords. About the European art of fencing, we can judge only by books.


Short sword wakizashi. Notice that the hilt of the sword is not braided, but the detail of the manuka is still present on it. (Tokyo National Museum)

Everything else - if we talk about a sword, how about weapons- identically! In both Japan and Europe, the sword was never the main weapon of a knight. In Japan, the main weapon of the samurai was bow. The term "war, to fight" itself meant "to shoot from a bow." Then such a weapon, as in Europe, became a spear. The Western knight had a spear as his main weapon, and only when it broke did he take on ... a combat scourge, an ax, a sixth, and only then a sword. And the samurai did exactly the same thing, it was not for nothing that the emperor’s guard was armed with the iron clubs of Kanabo - “there is no reception against scrap”. That is, the sword was a kind of sacred weapon, which was cherished and revered. True, in Japan, the veneration of the sword went much further than in Europe.

Japanese sword: deeper and deeper ... (part of 1)

Sword of Tati, set in the style of hoogokurasi-no-tati. (Tokyo National Museum)

In Europe, shrines were placed in the handles of swords: “angel's hair”, “the tooth of John the Baptist” or “the nail of the life-giving Cross of the Lord”. But they were worshiped, and the sword only played the role of the "ark." The Japanese, being Shintoists, believed that the world was inhabited by kami spirits. And each sword has its own kami! Accordingly, the master of the sword, too, sooner or later became kami and lived in his sword, therefore the sword should be treated very respectfully, for it was the "house of the spirits."


Blade of the sword tati master Nagamitsu. (Tokyo National Museum)

Now let's turn to the historiography of the subject, that is, to the basis of the foundations.
Perhaps the first author to turn to the military stories samurai in the USSR, was AB Spevakovsky, who published the book Samurai — The Military Class of Japan in 1981 (Moscow, Main editorial board of Oriental literature of Science). The book is very interesting, although with respect to weapons there is a lot of inaccuracies. An exceptional role in the study of Japanese weapons, starting from the 90s of the last century, in our country is played by the works of K.S. Nosova, who himself is engaged in martial arts with Japanese weapons, is a doctor of science and publishes his books not only here, but also abroad. The last of his books on this topic is The Samurai Weapon (2016).


The blade of the sword tati master Sucezane. (Tokyo National Museum)

Peru A. Bazhenov owned the monograph “The History of the Japanese Sword” (2001, “Baltika / Entente”), which 15 has collected for her material for years in the collections of the Moscow Kremlin Armory Museum, the Military History Museum of Artillery, Engineers and Communications (VIMAIVVS), The Central Naval Museum (TsVMM), he owns the art of forging, and which has been invited many times by the leading museums of the country to compile catalogs of Japanese weapons. This is a very solid study that is hard to add.


Tati masters Tomonari from the province of Bitzen, XI century. (Tokyo National Museum)

The narrower themes of the Japanese sword are devoted to the work of E. Skralivetsky “Tsuba. Legends on Metal ”(2006),“ Kozuka. A small satellite of the Japanese sword ”(2009), published by the Atlant Publishing House.


Tati master Sizu Kanadzhi, XIV century. (Tokyo National Museum)

About Japanese swords is described in the translated book of the Japanese historian M. Kure “Samurai. Illustrated history ”((Trans. From English. U. Saptsinoy). M .: AST: Astrel, 2007), and there are also given their interesting photos. English historians Thomas Richardson and Anthony Bryant wrote about Japanese swords (their books in Russian can be found on the Web). But there are English-language works that have not been translated into Russian. For example, Clements J. Medieval Swordsmanship. Illustrated Methods and Techniques. Boulder USA. Paladin Press, 1998. True, the theme of the Japanese sword in this work is not the main one, but comparative information is given. Even D. Nicolas in his fundamental research: Nicolle D. Arms and Armor of the Crusading Era, 1050 - 1350. UK L .: Greenhill Books. Vol.1,2, it is written about them, although a little.

Well, and of course, mention should be made of the books of Stephen Turnbull, published in our translation in large editions and summarized in the 696-page edition of Samurai. Military history of Japan "(M .: Eksmo, 2013). True, he too has a "talkative" style of presentation and in the captions under the photographs their source and current location are not indicated. For example, how do you like this signature - "From the scroll in Yosidzaki." And where is this scroll located and how can I look at it myself? Alas, this is an obvious lack of a modern historical school, and not only a foreign one — there some authors already write under photos even this way: the source is Flicr, but also our domestic science and historical journalism.

That is, today, for those who would like to study the Japanese sword (well, at least for the sake of interest, in order not to fall into dementia before time) all the conditions and the mass of all kinds of literature exist. Unfortunately, not always in our country in the same museums conditions are created for the work of researchers of the same Japanese swords that are kept in their back rooms. I know the museum, which houses a unique Japanese parade sword with a scabbard and a handle of cloisonne enamel (!). But ... how to shoot it so as to present in all its glory? This is both difficult and expensive. I know museums where the same Bazhenov will never be invited, and where there are interesting swords that can be said to be lost for research.


The blade of the katan sword of the work of the renowned master Muramas, XV century. (Tokyo National Museum)

Konstantin Nosov in his work on the armament of samurai indicates that there are four typologies of Japanese swords, based on their chronology. And in all classifications the years are different. But most researchers distinguish as the most ancient “era of the ancient sword” - jokoto, up to about 795 - 900. Then comes the koto - the era of "old swords" - 795 - 1596. (900 - 1530), then Shinto - "New Swords" - 1596 - 1624 (or 1596 - 1781), followed by a period of synsinto - "new swords" - 1624 - 1876. (or 1781 - 1876). The year 1876, by the way, was not chosen by chance. This year, their wearing was forbidden in Japan, but the history of the Japanese sword did not end there, and a new period began - gendaito - the “newest swords” and bishyakuto - the “modern swords” made by today's masters.


Katana by Masamune with gold inscription. Kamakura, 14th century, length 70.8, see. (Tokyo National Museum)

However, all researchers are unanimous in that the ancient swords of the period of the jokoto had a straight single-blade blade and a hilt for one hand. Swords were thin, somewhat tapering to the point and with pommel, changing from century to century. Garda as such was absent. It is possible that some part of them, found in Japan, was brought from China, well, and the fact that there was a copying of Chinese samples - undoubtedly.

Then came the tsurugi swords or ken, which had a double-sided sharpening, diamond-shaped blade section. The length of his swords ranged from 60 to 70 cm.

Then in the Heian era (794 - 1191), when endless internecine wars began and the samurai caste appeared, curved swords gradually replaced direct swords, and it is known that these swords, called tati, had blades up to 120 cm.

At the same time there was a significant improvement in the blacksmith's craft. True, this can only be judged by a few rare specimens, including the swords of the beginning of the Heian era. They had a nearly symmetrical double-edged point, typical for ken swords, but they had already curved single-blade blades. The Japanese call this form "Kissaki Moroha-zukuri", "Kogarasu-Maru" or "Kogarasu-Zukuri". The name of the blacksmith Yasadzun, who is considered the father of the “typical Japanese” sword and who worked around the 900 year, is known.


Kosi-gatan with a cog in the sheath. The era of Nambokuto-Muromachi, XIV - XV centuries. (Tokyo National Museum)

In 1868, the emperor Meiji stripped the shogun of executive power and began to rule independently. Innovations borrowed from European culture began to be introduced in the country. Well, when 1876, the samurai, were deprived of the right to wear their swords, a bad time came for blacksmiths, many of whom had lost their jobs. Swords were no longer valued as they were valued in the past, and the Japanese simply sold a very large number of them abroad.

During the Showa period (1926 - 1989) under the slogan "Showa" ("Enlightened World"). The Japanese began to gradually return to the old traditions in culture and the art of blacksmith armourers revived again. Well, in recent decades, their craft is experiencing a clear flowering. Both in Europe and in the USA it became fashionable to collect Japanese swords and learn how to own them, and even collecting tsubes turned into a very common hobby, if not to the craze. Suffice it to recall that souvenir Japanese swords can be found in almost every Russian gift or souvenir shop. True, these are “not exactly swords” and even not swords at all, however the trend itself is very indicative.

Here we meet with one very important difference between a European sword and a Japanese sword. In the European blade shank, passed through the handle, was riveted, which made it impossible to replace the handle, crosshairs and finishes. That is, such a replacement required reworking the entire sword. Swords that are outdated from a military or aesthetic point of view were usually reforged, or they were deposited in chapels or monasteries. In particular, it was in one of the chapels that the legendary Jeanne d'Arc acquired a sword with three crosses on the blade, about which people immediately began to say that this is the very sword with which Karl Martell beat the Arabs at Poitiers. The sword had to be cleaned of rust and re-polished, as well as attach a new handle to it. That is, this sword was clearly kept improperly.


Tanto master Sadayoshi. (Tokyo National Museum)

Nothing like this could happen with a Japanese sword. The fact is that all his mounts on the blade are removable. Replacing them is very easy. That is, the blade can be adjusted to the requirements of any fashion, although it itself will remain unchanged! At various times, there were many varieties of the rim of the sword, many of which were even regulated by the orders of the shogun himself. That is, again, all the swords of the samurai of the Heian epoch and the subsequent time were the swords of horsemen - that is, tati, and they were worn on the left thigh with a blade down on the cords. Fasteners for cords (or belts) were only two. The frame was determined by the status of the samurai. For example, the commanders had sirizzaya-no-tachi swords, with a scabbard, two-thirds covered with the skin of a tiger or a boar.


Tanto masters Ishida Sadamune. (Tokyo National Museum)

So the rim of the sword also allows you to determine the time of manufacture of the blade, but the main thing - what is written on his shank, where the master usually beat out his name. The main ways to mount rim six. But the most common is the buke-zukuri mount of the Shinto epoch, which was now worn, thrusting them in a belt, and not on its side on cords. The buke-zukuri sword had the following setting:
• A wooden handle covered with stingray leather, connected by a bamboo stud (and not a rivet!) With a flat shank and usually (and only occasionally wrapped around a tanto dagger) with cords (silk, leather or cotton).
• A cap for a head of a handle (Kasira) and a ring for its fastening (futi).
• Additional handle decorations (manuki) - small figures - handles inserted into the braid or attached to it without braid.
• Garda (tsuba). Actually, it is not a guard at all, but quite the opposite - an emphasis for a hand so that it does not slip on the blade.
• Scabbards - Saya (most often they were made of magnolia wood, but bone is also known) lacquered and usually decorated with inlays. The sheath was also in the custom of supplying "capacity" for three items not found in European swords:
• additional knife (co-gatana); which could be used as a universal or throwing one (in the western literature, the term "kozuka" is used to designate it, but in fact kozuka is just a hilt of a cogatana);
• pin (claw); which could perform various functions: to serve as a hairpin and ... to stick it into the body of a killed enemy or into a severed head, and notify by this very person whose “trophy” is,;
• chopsticks (vari-basi); however, not wood, but metal; in shape they correspond to kogai, but are divided along.

The handles of all these accessories protrude from the holes in the foot and pass through the holes in the tube. In Europe in the late Middle Ages, cases with accessories were also often attached, including a knife. So there is definitely a similarity here.


Wakidzasi masters Ishida Sadamune. (Tokyo National Museum)

It is necessary to note the difference between the European sword and the Japanese one, that the latter had more ornate metal parts of the mount, such as a cap of the head, a fastening ring of the handle, lining on the handle and a tsuba (in theory it would not be necessary to incline these Japanese words adhere to the norms of the Russian language than the Japanese!), as well as to whom and ko-gatan. Of course, very simple to finish swords are known in Japan. However, European as a whole they still lose. The decorations of the Japanese sword were kept in the same style, and the same master made them (except for the blade of the co-gatana who was forged by the blacksmith-gunsmith, which the blade itself did). Usually used alloy of copper and gold (syakudo), which is then blackened by etching. It is clear that a large area of ​​a tsuba made it possible to create a small masterpiece from it, and it is not surprising that real jewelers worked on them, and now it is a separate branch of collecting.


Another short Wakizashi sword from the Tokyo National Museum.

The entire mount of the Japanese sword was designed so that it is easily disassembled. Therefore, if necessary, any renowned blade could be decorated with fashionable ornaments or, on the contrary, disguised. It is not surprising, therefore, that very old blades could often have a new mount. Well, if the sword was not supposed to be worn, the mount was removed from it and replaced with a special mount specifically for storage. That is why the Japanese swords, or rather their blades, are still in such good preservation.

To be continued ...
Author:
222 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. DesToeR
    DesToeR 24 November 2017 15: 32 New
    +3
    Are Japanese weapons swords? After all, the blade of Tati and Katana is single-blade. Rather, the Japanese weapons of tati and katana are sabers.
    1. kalibr
      24 November 2017 15: 35 New
      +2
      Rather, yes. But there is a tradition to consider them swords.
      1. alex-cn
        alex-cn 24 November 2017 16: 36 New
        +1
        it’s just the European tradition, according to Behheim, attributed them to sabers.
        1. kalibr
          24 November 2017 17: 21 New
          0
          Behaim's book was published in 1898. Much has changed in Europe since then, right?
          1. alex-cn
            alex-cn 24 November 2017 17: 51 New
            +3
            My opinion is that in the 19th century they were "better understood" in edged weapons. Still, they were closer to him ...
            1. kalibr
              25 November 2017 12: 47 New
              +1
              Your opinion is wrong. Closer yes, but they did not have methods of studying equal to modern ones.
              1. alex-cn
                alex-cn 25 November 2017 14: 15 New
                +2
                modern study methods are good. It's a bit about the other ... In the 19th century, they were still actively using it in "everyday" life ... Have you ever heard of a duel with knives during your life? But at the end of the 19th century this was still quite common. And the possession of knives was the norm for any aristocrat. And what’s important is this “understanding” of the weapon ... Just like a modern professional shooter evaluates a gun only by picking it up ...
                1. kalibr
                  25 November 2017 20: 19 New
                  0
                  So this is exactly what is now characteristic of modern Japan. Although military reconstruction is developing in other countries.
                  1. alex-cn
                    alex-cn 26 November 2017 08: 06 New
                    +2
                    I repeat that this is my personal opinion.
                    Military reconstruction is also different from a real battle, like a duel between two samurai or a European duel from sports fencing - there is no real opportunity to stay with a hole in the chest or without a head, the same applies to small arms, shooting with the enemy and paintball, two very big differences. Therefore, the requirements for weapons and the ability to use them are very different.
                    1. Grid
                      Grid 26 November 2017 15: 06 New
                      0
                      I repeat that this is my personal opinion.

                      So it does not interest at all an afftir. Young, we have a guru here ...
                      1. alex-cn
                        alex-cn 26 November 2017 17: 57 New
                        +2
                        This is you in vain ... the caliber differs from many in that it can listen to opponents and reasonably argue with them.
      2. Rakti-kali
        Rakti-kali 24 November 2017 21: 43 New
        +9
        The Japanese sword was used relatively recently.

        Well, yes, the Japanese held back in the Middle Ages, until Meiji actually stayed in the European 15-16 centuries.
        And the Japanese sword had to be fought even in the 20th century. Well, how to fight ... Nanjing everyone remembers? Here there, "relatively recently", Japanese swords were noted.
        Japanese swords came to us in very good condition, while European swords were poorly preserved. Not so with the samurai swords: a sword at the age of several centuries for a layman looks like a new one.

        So what are you saying ... So how many dug Japanese swords have come down to us in the state "for a layman looks like new"! ?? All that came from Japanese swords is the swords held by the families of their owners, and then after WWII recognized by special law as a national treasure. At the same time, 99,999% of the rest of the govnokatans were simply allowed to be remelted, despite their age. Hence the quality and condition of the blades - it’s just that after 40-50 years of the 20th century only really good old blades that passed a strict selection survived, but there are literally several thousand such blades, and only blades of the highest category (those that are “national property” and “forbidden to exported to Japan ") - there are several dozen of them.
        The European swords in perfect condition are no less, if not more, plus thousands of oxidized bits from the excavations.
        The traditional art of Japanese blacksmiths-gunsmiths has been preserved since the Middle Ages. European skills, in fact, lost.

        Facespalm is becoming painful ... What Damascus steel, Damascus steel, what became early medieval Europe - all technologies have long been unraveled and restored. Yes, and in Japanese technology there is nothing special except the patience of Japanese blacksmiths, who have been for months waving out of the existing local iron ore in primitive govnepoves something like candy.
        Up to our time, Japanese sword fighting techniques have also been preserved. We can judge European fencing art only from books

        Eooptaaaaah ... And what about the Japanese fencing, we judge by the movies or something !! ???? belay
        Here we meet with one very important difference between the European sword and the Japanese one. In the European, the blade shaft, passed through the handle, was riveted, which made it impossible to replace the handle, crosshair and pommel. That is, such a replacement required a rework of the whole sword.

        Emnip has long since begun to find swords of the 9th-10th centuries with complex guards and handles fixed with studs or rivets, so what do you specify when and at which swords in Oyrope the shank was riveted?
        1. kytx
          kytx 19 December 2017 13: 57 New
          +1
          Japas themselves consider the art of forging swords lost in the 14th century. There are 3 objective reasons for this.
          Shakovsky does not fumble in the subject, so we diverge :)
          1. Michael_Zverev
            Michael_Zverev 19 December 2017 14: 09 New
            0
            What reasons can I ask?
            1. kytx
              kytx 19 December 2017 15: 58 New
              +2
              1 There was a severe flood on the river where blacksmiths lived compactly and there was a cluster of gunsmiths, several villages were washed away, 5 thousand people died, including well-known craftsmen with families and students, because of the secrecy of the craftsmen the continuity was lost.
              2 a unique deposit of ferruginous sand with alloying additives, from which the raw materials were taken, was exhausted. Steel began to be imported. And she was of a different composition.
              3 the era of “warring provinces” began, thousands of armies needed a lot of weapons and equipment, they didn’t care about quality, they needed a shaft of products. Well, the blacksmiths gave the country coal ...
              Well, the 4th era of kamaeur was replaced by the Edo era, swords were required not functional acracotta and rich decoration. Documented examples are known when, when trying to use a famous master’s weapon for its intended purpose, it broke in a harmless situation

              Somehow
    2. Cruorvult
      Cruorvult 24 November 2017 17: 28 New
      +1
      If in terms of concepts this is a saber, but it appeared from a direct sword and is called a sword in Japanese, so this is how it works in two ways.
    3. groks
      groks 24 November 2017 19: 47 New
      0
      Tati, it's their ax in general. So it’s not a sword at all, and certainly not a saber. They just had such axes, weak ones.
      1. kalibr
        24 November 2017 21: 58 New
        0
        The ax is masakari. The ax is it.
    4. Rakti-kali
      Rakti-kali 24 November 2017 21: 22 New
      0
      Quote: DesToeR
      Are Japanese weapons swords? After all, the blade of Tati and Katana is single-blade. Rather, the Japanese weapons of tati and katana are sabers.

      Tati, according to the method of wearing and application, in the European tradition is clearly perceived as cavalry sabers. Katanas are two-handed swords.
    5. philosopher
      philosopher 17 July 2018 15: 55 New
      0
      In our European view, katana and tati are all sabers, but the Japanese themselves consider them swords. By the way, the Japanese have a name in their language specifically for their sabers - "saberu", which appeared with the Meiji restoration. This is just a traditional saber in our understanding (although in my opinion it is more likely a saber) with the shape of a handle and guard characteristic of European analogues and connected to the top.
      It was with the help of saber that the notorious "Japanese city man" attacked young Nicholas II, inflicting two cuts on him that were not life-threatening.
      1. Grid
        Grid 19 July 2018 12: 53 New
        0
        By the way, the Japanese have a name in their language specifically for their sabers - "saberu",

        They have the designation of a normal sword, it is called KEN ....
        1. philosopher
          philosopher 22 July 2018 09: 40 New
          0
          More precisely, it’s just “ken”, it’s just a direct Chinese sword. No one ever called katana or tati ken.
  2. DesToeR
    DesToeR 24 November 2017 15: 51 New
    +5
    There are already many articles about Japanese weapons. Is it possible to make a good article in three parts (at least) about the "ideal katana"? For example, this:
    1. kalibr
      24 November 2017 17: 20 New
      +4
      About the saber - sash-ho - the "long knife", there is an interesting book and a lot of research. You look on the Internet and ... try to make such material. I honestly just have no time.
    2. kytx
      kytx 19 December 2017 19: 49 New
      0
      So the saber and katana are twin brothers. Geometry, weight, dimensions are almost the same. The difference is only in the handle, katana is one and a half-handed, the checker is one-handed. Both were worn with the blade up, and even the technique of chopping a blow with twisting is the same.
  3. burigaz2010
    burigaz2010 24 November 2017 16: 16 New
    +1
    Mr. Shpakovsky, but what exactly did you want to say? Undeterred of the lack of steel katana is what? Although you yourself wrote that few European blades have survived! And now the question is with what fright of Japanese swords survived more? I think that you will not argue that more blades were produced in Europe than in Japan!
    1. kalibr
      24 November 2017 17: 18 New
      +1
      Preserved more in Japan! More was produced in Europe, so what?
      1. Grid
        Grid 25 November 2017 06: 38 New
        +3
        Mr. Shpakovsky, as always, such Shpakovsky ...

        Well, anyone can follow the link:
        http://fishki.net/mix/2346054-velikolepnaja-kolle
        kcija-srednevekovogo-oruzhija-v-evrope-v-arsenale
        -goroda-grac.html
        This is only one museum, one European city ...
        Really medieval weapons in good condition in Europe have survived about a dozen times more than in Japan. For one banal reason: Europe will be a little more.
        Well, this is from the artillery museum, one of the windows:
        1. kalibr
          25 November 2017 12: 44 New
          +1
          I do not need links and photos, they do not prove anything. I have a lot of my own photos of European swords, so what? And I know about the arsenal in Graz, so what?
          1. Grid
            Grid 25 November 2017 15: 39 New
            +2
            Well, if you know, then do not carry nonsense.
            As for "do not need me," this is not the position of not only a normal scientist, whom you undoubtedly are not, but simply any sane person.
            1. kalibr
              25 November 2017 15: 58 New
              +1
              So I'm insane.
              1. Grid
                Grid 25 November 2017 17: 54 New
                +3
                This is pretty obvious.
                1. kalibr
                  25 November 2017 19: 15 New
                  +1
                  I once wrote to you, Grill, that your trouble is that you do not know your place. You can write the devil knows that, in VO, but this is the opinion of the anonymous author, who doesn’t even call him anything. If you were a researcher at the Institute of Oriental Studies of the Russian Academy of Sciences, then I would have reacted to your words differently, and so ... I just do not pay attention to such writings. When talking with such people, I’m only interested in clicks. There are people who like to read how others “dog”, periodically you come back, again. So little by little their number is growing. In addition, such verbal "communication" opens up opportunities for advertising, which is also useful. From this point of view, I look at what you write. And that’s all. They are no longer suitable for anything. To take into account your opinion, you must write who you are and what you ...
                  1. Grid
                    Grid 25 November 2017 19: 42 New
                    +6
                    that your trouble is that you don’t know your place.

                    But how much do you take on yourself, dear?
                    but this is the opinion of the anonymous author, who doesn’t even call anything.

                    Your opinion is of the same kind, and if you take into account those “works” that I had the misfortune to read, then the opinion of the CPSU history teacher on engineering matters is even less. For one simple reason, I, at least, am just a certified mechanical engineer, unlike you.
                    To take into account your opinion, you must write who you are and what you ...

                    There is simply no need to ring with regalia. For I have gained a feeling of my own fullness a very long time ago, and I do not need to confirm it.
                    1. kalibr
                      25 November 2017 20: 11 New
                      +1
                      Ah, a mechanical engineer ... well then you may not be noticed at all. If you can still understand something in technical materials, then with regard to historical topics your opinion is just an imaginary value. Although, one cannot forbid a person to be interested in history. Take an interest! And a feeling of fullness is good. Good engineers (until they get into the story) are always people who are useful to society. Hope you are a good engineer.
                      1. Grid
                        Grid 25 November 2017 20: 25 New
                        +5
                        Ah, a teacher of history of the CPSU ...
                        You know, your opinion is much less interesting than the opinion of even Uncle Vanya.
                        And what is an imaginary unit you yourself just can not imagine. A-priory.
                        Good engineers (until they get into the story) are always people who are useful to society.

                        Good teachers of the history of the CPSU, they are useful until they go into history, and even more so in engineering.
                      2. Setrac
                        Setrac 25 November 2017 20: 55 New
                        +3
                        Quote: kalibr
                        Ah, a mechanical engineer ... well then you may not be noticed at all. If you can still understand something in technical materials, then with regard to historical topics your opinion is just an imaginary value.

                        Techies see the mistakes of historians, which (mistakes) historians do not see because of their technical illiteracy. Entire books have been written about this - how historians are dumb, promoting the "correct" version of history. History is a sort of prostitute serving the interests of the authorities.
                        And when someone beats himself in the chest - "I am a historian of the RAS" - this is not a virtue, but a very flaw.
                  2. Setrac
                    Setrac 25 November 2017 20: 50 New
                    +2
                    Quote: kalibr
                    I once wrote to you, Grill, that your trouble is that you do not know your place.

                    Where are we already rich and wretched to your divine essence.
                    Quote: kalibr
                    If you were a researcher at the Institute of Oriental Studies of the Russian Academy of Sciences, then I would have reacted to your words differently, and so ... I just do not pay attention to such writings.

                    The position of denial? It's easy to get it! If you cannot convince amateurs - then you are not even zero in history - but the value is negative.
                    1. kalibr
                      26 November 2017 08: 07 New
                      +1
                      But it is impossible to convince someone who does not know anything. He must be taught, but he does not want to learn. And again, not the railroad judge to judge. It's like a pig in oranges ...
                      1. Grid
                        Grid 26 November 2017 09: 43 New
                        +3
                        What a presumptuous Shpakovsky! :)))
                        I am especially touched by the statements of such "highly cited" "scientists" about people whom they do not know.
                        Shpakovsky, you would have looked at my comments on your opuses, and in the beginning I (and not only) wrote to you as a scientist, that is, a person who is able to perceive criticism and correct my (usually very gross) mistakes. But I was mistaken, now it’s only a clown, whose only argument in the dispute is: “I am scientist, and who are you? Where are your printed works? What is your citation index?” I can’t relate to. By the way, you graze at VO just because nowhere else will such a nonsense be published.
                      2. The comment was deleted.
                  3. abrakadabre
                    abrakadabre April 2 2018 00: 03 New
                    +2
                    I once wrote to you, Grill, that your trouble is that you do not know your place. You can write the devil knows that, in VO, but this is the opinion of the anonymous author, who doesn’t even call him anything.
                    Nevertheless, in the specific question of the number of surviving European swords in Europe, your opponent is right. They survived in general and in excellent condition in particular, much more.
                    One can argue about the number of swords that survived in the early Middle Ages. Here, most likely the Japanese win. Especially on blades with good safety. But if you take the 15-17 centuries., Japan enviously smokes on the sidelines. There are a lot of European castle (private) arsenals. Not all of them are large, like Graz, the Vatican, Vienna or the Royal London ... But there are many of them. And what distinguishes European arsenals favorably is the preservation of not only the status and ceremonial weapons of the highest level (as in Japan), but also a simple, purely utilitarian weapon. Let's just say soldier level.
                    Many in Japan, you will now find asigaru blades or ordinary samurai of the 16-17th centuries? But the same Graz (and not only him) stores weapons (including blades) and armor for the infantry army of several thousand people + to the cavalry regiment. Moreover, most of this has been stored since the 18th century, when the imperial arsenal was reorganized into a museum by the decree of the monarch, in a condition, think about it, of ZERO readiness. That is, I grabbed a sword from the shelf and you can fight them IMMEDIATELY. Or took a helmet - and his decaying belts will not fall off. Etc. Similar storage conditions are in the Vatican collection.
                    The continuity of the manufacture of weapons and armor in Europe was also not interrupted. The same Vatican periodically reorders sets of lat for its Swiss guard if necessary. And the family workshop that carries out their orders has existed for several centuries. And this is not the only workshop.
                    An armored comrade and colleague was in Austria in a small company that has existed since the 16th century. And they made armor at that time. The main profile has long shifted towards modern products. But! In the warehouse they have all the necessary tools for forging armor. Including a set of matrices for forging large quantities of cheap infantry armor of several sizes. Since the time when it was required to equip infantry with armor. The company said that periodically they, by order of collectors, return to the first specialization of the company and make armor.
  4. burigaz2010
    burigaz2010 24 November 2017 16: 29 New
    +4
    These are swords, and your katanas are crafts!
    1. kalibr
      24 November 2017 17: 22 New
      +1
      About swords will be too, do not worry.
      1. burigaz2010
        burigaz2010 24 November 2017 18: 01 New
        +2
        Quote: kalibr
        About swords will be too, do not worry.

        Shpakovsky I’m just not worried! But I can’t forget your pearls anymore! How's your sword master, Miyamoto Musashi? Did I understand correctly? You know you need to talk with Ilya Polonsky, he is talking about the varanga and you are talking about Musashi !!! Here
        It will be rzhacha!
        1. kalibr
          24 November 2017 21: 59 New
          +1
          It is not Polonsky who writes about the varanga. Why are you so inconsiderate ...
          1. burigaz2010
            burigaz2010 25 November 2017 06: 34 New
            0
            Yes, Mr. Shpakovsky I apologize to Oleinikov!
      2. Setrac
        Setrac 24 November 2017 23: 03 New
        +2
        Quote: kalibr
        About swords will be too, do not worry.

        Your desire to write "in trend" causes rejection among readers.
        1. kalibr
          25 November 2017 12: 41 New
          +1
          Judging by the number of views, the opposite is true. For example, only the material “Why Samurai did not use shields” collected 172 views. An interesting rejection. No need to judge everyone by yourself!
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 25 November 2017 13: 13 New
            +1
            Quote: kalibr
            Judging by the number of views, the opposite is true. For example, only the material “Why Samurai did not use shields” collected 172 views. An interesting rejection.

            Readers are interested in the subject of edged weapons. It is strange that you took the edged weapons of such a backward nation in military affairs.
            1. kalibr
              25 November 2017 15: 55 New
              +4
              I have been dealing with this topic for 17 years. Agree that this is quite enough time to understand it. I have 3 books on it and many articles in scientific journals, but this must be watched in the E-lab. And the "backward nation" ... this is "who cares: who the pop, who the pop, who the daughter is pop, the devil said, took off his underpants and sat down in the nettle!"
              1. Setrac
                Setrac 25 November 2017 16: 00 New
                +3
                Quote: kalibr
                I have been dealing with this topic for 17 years.

                Quote: kalibr
                I have 3 books on it and many articles in scientific journals

                And how many Japanese weapons did you dig out of the earth in seventeen years to consider yourself a specialist? You study the scribble of other "historians" completely unable to verify the veracity of what was written. But science involves knowledge and not faith, with faith you need to religious sites.
                1. kalibr
                  25 November 2017 19: 06 New
                  +1
                  If a person is a historian with a name, then why not trust him? Who are you in your specialty and education? Do you have any authority in your specialty? Refer to the works named at the beginning of the article. I can’t explain on fingers of an amateur to what exactly requires training and I don’t enter into disputes with them either. I. By the way, Japanese weapons do not need to be dug up. It is attributed and is in museums. For example, the Artillery and Signal Corps in St. Petersburg, in the Alabin Museum in Samara ...
                  1. Setrac
                    Setrac 25 November 2017 20: 45 New
                    +3
                    Quote: kalibr
                    If a person is a historian with a name, then why not trust him?

                    Faith is on religious issues, in science, the question of trust is not worth it, and therefore not trust - because there is no way to verify his words. A reference to "authorities" is a favorite technique of historians.
                    Quote: kalibr
                    Who are you in your specialty and education?

                    I am a railwayman.
                    Quote: kalibr
                    Do you have any authority in your specialty?

                    I do not impose my opinion on anyone, while referring to some authorities.
                    Quote: kalibr
                    And by the way, Japanese weapons do not need to be dug up.

                    You still say that historians do not need to participate in excavations at all!
                    Quote: kalibr
                    It is attributed and is in museums. for instance

                    This whole argument relates us generally to the contestation of history as a science, its pseudo-scientific methods and propaganda goals.
                    1. kalibr
                      26 November 2017 08: 03 New
                      +2
                      Imagine that I began to advise you how to smear the axle box with oil so that it does not burn, right? I participated in excavations, but not in Japan. And it is clear that history is not a science for a railwayman ... That is, you studied empirically the railway business?
                      1. Setrac
                        Setrac 26 November 2017 10: 57 New
                        +2
                        Quote: kalibr
                        Imagine that I began to advise you how to smear the axle box with oil

                        I’m a traveler, not a mover, but it doesn’t matter, I could explain to you why you should do this and not otherwise.
                        Quote: kalibr
                        And it is clear that for the railroad, history is not a science ...

                        It is for all people with normal critical thinking - not science - but the sharpest instrument of propaganda.
                        Quote: kalibr
                        I participated in excavations, but not in Japan.

                        But write about Japanese swords !!! Have you already written about Russian swords?
                2. Soho
                  Soho 1 December 2017 05: 06 New
                  +3
                  Setrac November 25, 2017
                  And how many Japanese weapons did you dig out of the earth in seventeen years to consider yourself a specialist? You study the scribble of other "historians" completely unable to verify the veracity of what was written. But science involves knowledge and not faith, with faith you need to religious sites.

                  To blame someone, you yourself need to be at least a specialist. The booth was criticized in the style of Khrushchev at the Manege
                  Khrushchev went around the hall three times, then asked the artists questions. In particular, he asked artists who their fathers were, figuring out the class origin [1]. Mikhail Suslov drew Khrushchev’s attention to some details of the paintings, after which Khrushchev began to resent, using, among others, such words as “shit”, “shit”, “daub” [2]:

                  “What kind of faces are these?” Can't you draw? My grandson will draw it better! … What it is? Are you damned men or pederasts, how can you write like that? Do you have a conscience?
                  1. Grid
                    Grid 1 December 2017 15: 03 New
                    0
                    Well, Shpakovsky’s witnesses climbed ...
                    1. Soho
                      Soho 4 December 2017 04: 30 New
                      +3
                      that is, as soon as you call a fool a fool, he immediately writes you to some sectarians?
                      Dear balabol, I do not defend Shpakovsky. I just point out that you behave like a woman in a bazaar - you have a squabble, instead of constructive objections. If you do not agree with the author - write in what and why. And if from your +100500 posts you remove co-operation and trolling, then in the bottom line there will be "0" information.
                      1. Grid
                        Grid 4 December 2017 14: 52 New
                        0
                        Not a respected witness of Shpakovsky, and you are the classic representative of this sect, have you tried to read the previous comments, or haven’t you tried? Or as soon as your idol was lowered to the level that he is worthy, you began to tear the template?
          2. Grid
            Grid 26 November 2017 15: 13 New
            0
            Judging by the number of views, the opposite is true.

            You flatter yourself, Mr. Shpakovsky. I personally crawl to read you, only to scratch my own BSW and kick the freak known for the whole Runet.
            1. kalibr
              26 November 2017 20: 48 New
              +1
              And what is this FAQ? I have not seen such abbreviations.
              1. Michael_Zverev
                Michael_Zverev 27 November 2017 13: 46 New
                0
                "Self-esteem."
                1. Grid
                  Grid 28 November 2017 10: 21 New
                  0
                  Hurt myself.
                  The feeling of your own majesty!
                  But about Shpakovsky scratching his sweet deed ...
                2. kalibr
                  29 November 2017 18: 27 New
                  +1
                  There is no such term, Michael. In sociology, the term "self-worth" is used.
                  1. Michael_Zverev
                    Michael_Zverev 30 November 2017 05: 37 New
                    0
                    This is not a term as such, but an Internet meme.
  5. Michael_Zverev
    Michael_Zverev 24 November 2017 18: 01 New
    +2
    What is this "hugokuoshi-no-tati"? There is a hogogusari-no-tachi sword mounted on chains of hogogusari.
    1. burigaz2010
      burigaz2010 24 November 2017 18: 08 New
      +3
      The namesake does not frighten Shpakovsky! He will write this to you! Well, his sect catch up with Kurosaki Mikado and the rest !!!!
      1. burigaz2010
        burigaz2010 24 November 2017 18: 10 New
        +1
        Good android, not Kurosaki but corios!
        1. burigaz2010
          burigaz2010 24 November 2017 18: 13 New
          +1
          Yes, whether the android makes the brain
      2. Michael_Zverev
        Michael_Zverev 24 November 2017 18: 25 New
        +1
        C'mon, what’s there to scare. Just a small correction.
  6. Victor Wolz
    Victor Wolz 24 November 2017 18: 08 New
    +1
    Divinely beautiful blades.
  7. burigaz2010
    burigaz2010 24 November 2017 18: 26 New
    +1
    Quote: burigaz2010
    Good android, not Kurosaki but corios!
    1. burigaz2010
      burigaz2010 24 November 2017 18: 29 New
      +4
      these are swords!
      1. kalibr
        24 November 2017 22: 00 New
        +3
        These are not swords, these are toys!
        1. Grid
          Grid 8 December 2017 10: 44 New
          0
          Yeah, toys, that's just they completely demolished their heads ...
          1. Michael_Zverev
            Michael_Zverev 8 December 2017 16: 54 New
            +1
            Data was not demolished. This is a copy of the Atlas sword from the movie about Conan with Schwarzenegger, relating to fantasy swords.
  8. andrewkor
    andrewkor 24 November 2017 19: 02 New
    +2
    My son-in-law, the Tyumen Cossack, has a saber made of spring, 65G steel hanging on the carpet, it looks nothing!
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 24 November 2017 23: 05 New
      +1
      Quote: andrewkor
      My son-in-law, the Tyumen Cossack, has a saber made of spring, 65G steel hanging on the carpet, it looks nothing!

      No work of ancient masters can be compared with modern steel.
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 24 November 2017 23: 23 New
        +4
        Quote: Setrac
        No work of ancient masters can be compared with modern steel

        Well, you turned it down. A couple of years ago I came across a very interesting article of a sharpener. A man has sharpened blades for more than forty years under a microscope. So here. For all his practice, he came across only three blades, which he could call ideal. It was an old oriental dagger, a Spanish medieval stylet, and a modern knife of one master.
        1. Golovan Jack
          Golovan Jack 24 November 2017 23: 35 New
          +8
          Quote: mordvin xnumx
          A man has sharpened blades under a microscope for more than forty years

          Why is he doing this?
          Looking at the sections under the microscope for studying the structure of steel - I understand that.
          Sharpening a knife under a microscope ... it's somehow strange, IMHO.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 25 November 2017 00: 00 New
            +4
            Quote: Golovan Jack
            Why is he doing this?
            Looking at the sections under the microscope for studying the structure of steel - I understand that.

            So he simultaneously sharpens and studies. Master. request I can’t give a link, you know, after all, my old laptop burned out. And look - laziness. wink
          2. Rey_ka
            Rey_ka 27 November 2017 12: 32 New
            0
            Sharpen a knife under a microscope

            not under and just sharpen with a microscope
        2. Setrac
          Setrac 25 November 2017 00: 33 New
          +3
          Quote: mordvin xnumx
          A couple of years ago I came across a very interesting article of a sharpener. A man has sharpened blades for more than forty years under a microscope.

          He also examines the moon with a microscope. Sharpening is also a very technologically advanced process and no old master will imprison better than a modern competent specialist.
          Quote: mordvin xnumx
          For all his practice, he came across only three blades, which he could call ideal.

          Let him study the cutters of metal-cutting machines at his leisure.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 25 November 2017 00: 41 New
            +4
            Quote: Setrac
            Let him study the cutters of metal-cutting machines at his leisure.

            What is there to learn? The same carbon.
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 25 November 2017 00: 52 New
              0
              Quote: mordvin xnumx
              What is there to learn? The same carbon.

              But is he not studying the chemical composition under a microscope? Hand turning master!
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 25 November 2017 01: 02 New
                +3
                Quote: Setrac
                But is he not studying the chemical composition under a microscope?

                Naturally, no. Structure. And it is different everywhere.
              2. Grid
                Grid 25 November 2017 06: 46 New
                +2
                Well, not only a "simple" carbon is used for cutters, there are very tricky things there.
                1. michey
                  michey 26 November 2017 19: 44 New
                  +1
                  "Not only"? There is no carbon at all.
                  PPC specialists.
                  1. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 26 November 2017 21: 22 New
                    +4
                    Quote: michey
                    There is no carbon at all.

                    Doesn't fast carbon have carbon? And nobody seems to make katana out of victory.
                    1. michey
                      michey 27 November 2017 11: 54 New
                      +2
                      You will familiarize yourself with the rules for the classification of steels. High speed steel refers to the so-called tool steels. Carbon steels are called non-alloy steels.
                      Any material science textbook will help you.
                  2. Grid
                    Grid 27 November 2017 14: 45 New
                    0
                    The incisors are very different ...
                    1. michey
                      michey 28 November 2017 18: 19 New
                      0
                      Doesn’t go for any
                      1. Grid
                        Grid 1 December 2017 15: 06 New
                        0
                        Yah? The baby was googled by high-speed cutters, carbides, but if there are no brains, then type in the search word “win”.
                  3. Grid
                    Grid 28 November 2017 10: 22 New
                    0
                    Well, some go ...
            2. michey
              michey 26 November 2017 19: 43 New
              0
              What? laughing laughing
              What is carbon? laughing laughing
        3. Michael_Zverev
          Michael_Zverev 25 November 2017 08: 16 New
          0
          Quote: mordvin xnumx
          A couple of years ago I came across a very interesting article of a sharpener. A man has sharpened blades for more than forty years under a microscope. So here. For all his practice, he came across only three blades, which he could call ideal. It was an old oriental dagger, a Spanish medieval stylet, and a modern knife of one master.
          Something I did not quite understand, and by what parameters did he evaluate the blades to call them ideal? The symmetry of the form, or what?
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 25 November 2017 08: 59 New
            +4
            Quote: Mikhail_Zverev
            and by what parameters did he evaluate the blades to call them ideal?

            Under the microscope, it is seen that at the edge at some blades - like boulders on the shore, at others - like breakers, and ideal - when steel with fine grain is uniform along the entire length of the edge.
            1. Golovan Jack
              Golovan Jack 25 November 2017 09: 57 New
              +7
              Quote: mordvin xnumx
              that at the edge of some blades - like boulders on the shore, at others - like breakers, and ideal - when steel with fine grain is uniform along the entire length of the edge

              A knife saw cuts better than a smooth wassat
              Well, or sawing ... recourse
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 25 November 2017 10: 30 New
                +5
                Shave with a saw. laughing
            2. abrakadabre
              abrakadabre April 2 2018 00: 20 New
              +1
              Under the microscope, it is seen that at the edge at some blades - like boulders on the shore, at others - like breakers, and ideal - when steel with fine grain is uniform along the entire length of the edge.
              Did he try to examine a surgical scalpel under a microscope? Or is there a safety razor blade? It seems not to be an antique thing. And vintage hand technology is not used. A sharpening level.
              And one more thing. I think no one will argue that a good master can very well sharpen a sword by hand. The question is different. The work of such a master is not a very cheap job. And if you take the army of the same Oda Nabunaga, how many blades in it were of the appropriate quality of metal and sharpening? I suspect that it is much less than one percent. At the same time, the mass weapons of the European armies were of significantly better quality. Although it, like in Japan, was much inferior to piece copies of the VIP level.
        4. garri-lin
          garri-lin 27 November 2017 20: 12 New
          0
          Sharpen the stylet? What for? The stylet is strictly prickly. There is nothing to sharpen there.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 27 November 2017 21: 00 New
            +4
            That type of everything and the restorer. And he wrote not about sharpening the stylet, but about how the cutting edge looks. Just do not carp at me about the cutting edge of the stylet, sick of it. Call it a face.
      2. Grid
        Grid 25 November 2017 06: 48 New
        0
        Well, 65G is far from the best option. Moreover, the manufacturing method very significantly affects the properties of the blade.
        1. abrakadabre
          abrakadabre April 2 2018 00: 29 New
          0
          Well, 65G is far from the best option.
          This is simply the cheapest option, with acceptable quality. Unless for long blades of 65G, zone hardening is strongly recommended. And then the swords from it are fragile. Often break down. The same 50hga (spring cars, the same Moskvich) is already better. 60s2a (truck spring) is even better. It is from easily accessible. They say that the sword from y7-y8 is not very bad. But I have not tried, I will not say for or against.
      3. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 25 November 2017 12: 15 New
        +3
        Quote: Setrac
        No work of ancient masters can be compared with modern steel.

        Well, how to “look” ..... There are a lot of stories about ancient “miracle swords” ... They easily chopped down enemy steel armor and swords (!). Somehow modern scientists have made an analysis of some Japanese katanas ... it turned out that the blades were made of molybdenum (alloyed) steel. There is even a story explaining the appearance of such (or similar) alloyed steel. It is as follows: There are land plots where the top layer of soil is “saturated” with salts of certain metals. Grass growing there , has an unnatural color ... it grows poorly or "on the contrary, good ... may have some "mutations’. Metallurgists cut off such grass, burned it, and forged the hot metal, sprinkled the forge blank with ash (ash). Moreover, the blank could be a bar ... several bars could be woven into a “bundle.” The “bundle” was forged. ..
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. Nikolaevich I
            Nikolaevich I 25 November 2017 14: 49 New
            +3
            Well, is there a simpler and more reliable explanation? Well ... sometimes I’m not very attentive; it happens that I’m doing several things in one time period ..... I might not have noticed! So indicate: where and what did I “miss”? And about the "salts of metals in the earth and alloy steel" ..... well, there is (was) such a version (or hypothesis) .... it is possible that more than once "criticized", but do not read "criticism" honored ...
        2. Michael_Zverev
          Michael_Zverev 25 November 2017 14: 40 New
          +2
          In some places in Japan, iron ore contains natural impurities of alloying elements, in particular molybdenum. Of course, the steel obtained from such ore was significantly superior to ordinary.
      4. Soho
        Soho 1 December 2017 05: 13 New
        +2
        Setrac November 24, 2017 23:05 p.m.
        No work of ancient masters can be compared with modern steel.

        you still start to think thoughtfully about the advantage of Windows compared to cuneiform writing of the Sumerians lol
        1. Grid
          Grid 1 December 2017 15: 11 New
          +4
          And this is really so. Alas, no damask steel can be compared with good modern alloy steel. Even the ancient one, as the excrement of a mammoth, 65G will give a hundred points ahead of the 16th century damask.
  9. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 24 November 2017 19: 07 New
    +4
    Why did Shpakovsky-san take it that the handle planted on the rivet cannot be replaced? recourse
    1. Rakti-kali
      Rakti-kali 24 November 2017 22: 00 New
      +2
      wink
      Quote: mordvin xnumx
      Why did Shpakovsky-san take it that the handle planted on the rivet cannot be replaced?

      Probably from the bottom of the tokkuri. wink laughing
  10. groks
    groks 24 November 2017 20: 06 New
    +7
    What the hell. In Europe, there are no traces left, and in Japan, as new, since 900. Have they already climbed off the trees in 900? Then it means about 500-600-700 years of silence. And then it struck again!
    Historiographers are storytellers. Storytellers who do not evenly understand anything except interpreting something, arbitrarily what, for arbitrary purposes.
    Here is a simple question that does not require climbing into the jungle of metallurgy, metalworking, geology, etc. How magically can a MILITARY weapon have such an ideal state? Over a thousand years, it had to be re-sharpened how many times? What is left of him?
    Remake it. Redesigns made when it was necessary to pump up patriotism with their "ancient" history. Thank God that the fashion of digging the seas went only recently, otherwise .... Although from the Mongols they are also torpedoes and MLRS fought off.
    1. kalibr
      24 November 2017 22: 04 New
      +2
      In Europe, traces remained ... As for the remodelers ... Here, defend the candidate in Japanese history, then we'll talk. Or at least read one of the works recommended in the article. So like discoveries are not made. By the way, istriography is not at all what you think.
      1. Grid
        Grid 25 November 2017 06: 44 New
        +1
        Here is a Ph.D. in Japanese history, then we'll talk.

        What a gorgeous argument in a dispute on a forum on the Internet!
        Mr. Shpakovsky, you cheered me up for the whole day! :)))
        1. kalibr
          25 November 2017 07: 20 New
          +1
          You have not been in a long time, but I am glad that you read VO constantly. And the argument is the best. It is impossible to prove something to a person who knows nothing but how.
          1. Grid
            Grid 27 November 2017 14: 46 New
            0
            Will you have to cry?
      2. groks
        groks 25 November 2017 08: 20 New
        0
        What for? This is the standard excuse for "historians." We poke two kitchen knives with cutting edges. And this is enough to understand that only remodelers are represented.
        "Historians" are not only specialists in anything, but they also try to contradict the laws of nature.
        1. kalibr
          25 November 2017 12: 37 New
          +1
          No need to poke! Japanese fencing was not based on bumping, but on cares and evasions. Cinema and real life are very different.
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 25 November 2017 13: 19 New
            0
            Quote: kalibr
            No need to poke! Japanese fencing was not based on bumping, but on cares and evasions. Cinema and real life are very different.

            That's right, you have to chop, is it the swords, or are your swords evading the cabin?
            1. kalibr
              25 November 2017 15: 46 New
              +1
              My swords are gone. There are Japanese. At the beginning of the article a detailed historiography is given. This is the first material. And the whole cycle is not about fencing. Regarding fencing to Nosov. He is a master. My specialty is historiography.
              1. Setrac
                Setrac 25 November 2017 15: 55 New
                +1
                Quote: kalibr
                And the whole cycle is not about fencing.

                So you have no idea how they were used? Maybe they cut the bread, but fought with normal guns? Or worn at the parade. as a symbol of power? No wonder they say that the historian is a diagnosis, they divided the indivisible.
      3. Rakti-kali
        Rakti-kali 25 November 2017 12: 05 New
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        Here is a Ph.D. in Japanese history, then we'll talk.

        Sound your candidate’s topic, otherwise you don’t have to speak.
        1. kalibr
          25 November 2017 12: 35 New
          +1
          You see, my topic is not related to the subject, since there are books on this topic published since 2000: Knights of the East, Atlas of Samurai, Samurai. Complete Encyclopedia, as well as a number of articles in peer-reviewed publications. “Atlas ...” and “Samurai” (564 pages) reviewed the Institute of Oriental Studies of the Russian Academy of Sciences, and the RHF gave a grant for it. So if you are one of the authors of those books that are given in the historiographic section of this material, then it makes sense for me to listen to you. If not, then I don’t see the point of “talking” at all.
          1. Rakti-kali
            Rakti-kali 26 November 2017 02: 32 New
            +2
            Quote: kalibr
            You see, my topic is not related to the subject

            Aaaaaaaaaaa ..... well then
            Quote: kalibr
            Here is a Ph.D. in Japanese history, then we'll talk.
            1. kalibr
              26 November 2017 07: 59 New
              +1
              Once again: You see, my topic is not related to the subject, since there are books on this topic published since 2000: “Knights of the East”, “Atlas of Samurai”, “Samurai. Complete Encyclopedia”, as well as a number of articles in peer-reviewed editions. “Atlas ...” and “Samurai” (564 pages) reviewed the Institute of Oriental Studies of the Russian Academy of Sciences, and the RHF gave a grant for it. So if you are one of the authors of those books that are given in the historiographic section of this material, then it makes sense for me to listen to you. If not, then I don’t see the point of “talking” at all.
    2. Setrac
      Setrac 24 November 2017 23: 06 New
      +2
      Quote: groks
      Remake it. Redesigns made when it was necessary to pump up patriotism with their "ancient" history.

      That is precisely why they are “prohibited from exporting”, because they will expose them.
      1. kalibr
        25 November 2017 07: 19 New
        +2
        And what about the mass of swords ALREADY taken out and located in the most famous museums in the world did not you think?
      2. Rakti-kali
        Rakti-kali 25 November 2017 12: 13 New
        +2
        Quote: Setrac
        That is precisely why they are “prohibited from exporting”, because they will expose them.

        Well, in the ages of 15-17 in Japan, a certain number of truly masterpiece blades have really been made. This was due to the fact that really good craftsmen finally got good Korean iron, and one of the deposits in Japan turned out to be with a high content of vanadium in ferruginous sands.
        That's just any blade of the same time from Europe, unless it is a cheap craft, the quality will be better than even the best Japanese swords.
        1. kalibr
          25 November 2017 12: 28 New
          +1
          And this is true, as shown, for example, the reconstruction of the sword from Sutton Hu.
        2. Setrac
          Setrac 25 November 2017 13: 15 New
          0
          Quote: Rakti-Kali
          Well, in the ages of 15-17 in Japan, a certain number of truly masterpiece blades have really been made.

          At the same time in Europe, the production of armor reached its peak of development, and it does not matter at all that firearms are being used all over the planet.
    3. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre April 2 2018 00: 38 New
      +1
      How magically can a MILITARY weapon have such an ideal state? Over a thousand years, it had to be re-sharpened how many times? What is left of him?
      Yes Easy. And without any magic. These are not soldier blades from the first row. These are combat blades. But! military commander level. Which, if he draws his sword once a battle, it is most likely only to wave a blade in the air with a joyful cry of victory. Well, perfect care for tens of generations. With proper storage, it does not need to be corrected with a sharpener every other day, like a blade of a simple bead.
  11. leonardo_1971
    leonardo_1971 24 November 2017 20: 52 New
    +1
    When I took the saber in my hand, even goosebumps went on my body!
  12. shinobi
    shinobi 25 November 2017 07: 40 New
    +6
    Too much admiration. I have nothing against the culture of Japan, but I don’t share the enthusiasm. Especially about their blades. The usual mass consumer goods produced for wars in quality were almost not better than the European ones, and often worse. In Busido there is instruction to a samurai — If your sword became dull or bent during a fight (!), you should immediately give it to your nearest servant and take a new one! The aspiration for Japanese blades began in the second half of the 80s in the wake of the popularity of the series of films about Zatoichi and penetration Institute of the Anime genre to the west. A separate word must be said about Japanese fencing. In fact, what their masters achieved through years of training, the European school drove for six to seven months. Because the Mikado eventually abandoned the traditions and hired Western instructors and his young, frankly poorly trained army, quite successfully extinguished the samurai who rebelled against innovations. This, by the way, was perfectly shown in the film "The Last Samurai", although historically in one place they collected characters from different eras.
  13. groks
    groks 25 November 2017 16: 02 New
    +2
    Quote: kalibr
    No need to poke! Japanese fencing was not based on bumping, but on cares and evasions. Cinema and real life are very different.

    What do you need? Why the hell do I need a sword that cannot be protected from a blow?
    I. Looking at the pictures (historical!), We can make an unambiguous conclusion - such a peacock is not able to evade a drunken gopnik with a shtaketin.
    Well, so as not to return to the question. Particularly stubborn is to try to wrap some drunk with sandpaper (not everyone has a stingray skin) and try fencing. Does not work? Skin flies with palms? And what happens without self-harm? It turns out tightly to grab with two hands and peel like an ax. What, in fact, was written by everyone who met with the "art of fencing" in Japanese in real conditions.
    1. Grid
      Grid 25 November 2017 17: 58 New
      +1
      What, in fact, was written by everyone who met with the "art of fencing" in Japanese in real conditions.

      Well, there, for the Japanese, everything ended sadly enough.
    2. Rakti-kali
      Rakti-kali 26 November 2017 02: 46 New
      +1
      Quote: groks
      What do you need? Why the hell do I need a sword that cannot be protected from a blow?

      Do not worry you so. It’s just that Mr. Shpakovsky absolutely does not own the theme of Japan, Japanese weapons and the use thereof. In fact, the Japanese did not find anything wrong with using a sword blade to block, so among kizu (defects of the blade) quite often there are kirikomi (notch on the blade’s butt, trace of impact), which are often not even polished and are an indication that the sword was used in battle or combat.
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 26 November 2017 03: 16 New
        +3
        Quote: Rakti-Kali
        In fact, the Japanese did not find anything wrong with using a sword blade to block, so among kizu (defects of the blade), Kirikomi is quite common (notch on the blade’s butt, impact mark)

        And how did they sharpen their blades? Just wondering.
        1. kalibr
          26 November 2017 08: 22 New
          +1
          All will be. This is the first material.
          1. Rakti-kali
            Rakti-kali 26 November 2017 11: 31 New
            0
            Quote: kalibr
            All will be. This is the first material.

            Nenada! Well, please, do not torment you Japan!
            1. kalibr
              26 November 2017 17: 18 New
              +1
              "Nenada!" It's cool, but ... I will torment. Experts at the Institute of Oriental Studies of the Russian Academy of Sciences say everything is OK. You are not one of them, right? Buy (or look on the Web) my book "Samurai", read it, and ... as they say, you can do something yourself. At the beginning of the article, historiography on the topic is given. Why and for whom? For you!
        2. Grid
          Grid 26 November 2017 09: 49 New
          0
          Well, something like this:
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 26 November 2017 11: 16 New
            +3
            Here is a makeshift sharpening, and it is not clear whether the same angle along the entire length of the blade, and in general, whether the katana is sharpened along the entire length? Sharpening at the base makes no sense.
            1. Grid
              Grid 26 November 2017 14: 46 New
              0
              Here is a makeshift sharpening,

              Any Japanese saber (at least a katana, at least a Tati), production until the 20s of the 20th century is a makeshift thing.
              Katana was sharpened along the entire length of the cutting edge and at the same angle.
        3. Rakti-kali
          Rakti-kali 26 November 2017 11: 27 New
          0
          Quote: mordvin xnumx
          And how did they sharpen their blades? Just wondering.

          Well, like an ordinary water stone.
          And so, katanas, as weapons intended to cut light armor or flesh rather than chop heavy armor, are sharpened at a rather large angle. Moreover, the descent is usually lenticular or with a variable angle.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 26 November 2017 11: 39 New
            +3
            Quote: Rakti-Kali
            or with a variable angle.

            This is interesting. Was there a statutory sharpening in the Japanese army, how did checkers sharpen drafts in our army?
            1. Grid
              Grid 26 November 2017 14: 42 New
              0
              Was there a statutory sharpening in the Japanese army, how did checkers sharpen drafts in our army?

              Which Japanese army do you mean? And so, it didn’t exist at all.
        4. abrakadabre
          abrakadabre April 2 2018 00: 45 New
          0
          And how did they sharpen their blades? Just wondering.
          Whetstones, of course. If you are interested in the angle of sharpening, then depending on what centuries. But still the same as in Europe, the Middle East, India or China. And in all other places. Namely:
          During the period of mass use of armor, when the probability of impact on the metal of the armor is high - sharpening at more obtuse angles. The so-called chisel sharpening.
          When the armor is no longer in use - at sharper angles - it cuts the enemy’s meat better and easier without risking ruining the blade.
      2. groks
        groks 26 November 2017 08: 37 New
        0
        On the butt will be when knocking stabs. Where is the rest? The choppers didn't block at all?
        1. Rakti-kali
          Rakti-kali 26 November 2017 11: 30 New
          0
          Quote: groks
          On the butt will be when knocking stabs. Where is the rest? The choppers didn't block at all?

          They were blocked, but also usually by knocking to the side or a blade at a large angle to slip. Also, with a direct chopping strike, the block was placed at a large angle with the subsequent acceptance of the enemy’s blade on the tsuba and the transition to the clinch.
          1. groks
            groks 26 November 2017 13: 13 New
            0
            Oh how it goes. The cutting edge will be damaged inevitably, especially since the abrasive handle implies only a dead grip with both hands. What kind of fencing is there ....
            But in any case - the blades presented by the author in the photo, mirrored about any damage is silent, and the tsuba, in his opinion, is not needed for this at all and there can be no damage to it.
            Again - I suggest just checking it all out. A stick-imitator, a partner even with a cinema performance. We tried with all sorts of fantasy guys. The results are stitching sideways and chopping from above. Of course, it’s not strictly vertical, but it’s all the same from above. Iai-do is very predictable.
            Grandpa is trying to portray something. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MtWtPEbTb0
            Puts at the belt, but cutting up. Although here the author says that if cutting up, then on the suspension, and not for the belt. Well, okay - if it is otherwise, then he simply will not be able to beautifully return to the sheath. wink The first time he tries to stab forward, he realizes that he’s blocked the bullshit and doesn’t do that anymore. Then comes the balancing act without the slightest sense - why train instantly to snatch, if after snatching there is still a long swing?
            In practice, it turned out in only one way - we pull with the right hand, by the moment of straightening with the right, the blade is looking up and the left hand has caught up with the handle. We chop from the top right. Everything else either leads to a loss of time, like my grandfather’s video, or not as effective as his short poke.
  14. DesToeR
    DesToeR 25 November 2017 17: 28 New
    +3
    Quote: groks
    Why the hell do I need a sword that cannot be protected from a blow?

    You can also protect yourself with a katana, for example, take a hit on the butt, but then why did you use shields in Europe? Is the sword too expensive to take a hit on itself?
    Quote: groks
    Particularly stubborn is to try to wrap some drunk with sandpaper (not everyone has a stingray skin) and try fencing. Does not work? Skin flies with palms? And what happens without self-harm?

    And to wear gloves or gauntlets is not fate? In Europe, no one held a sword with his bare hand.
    Quote: groks
    It turns out tightly to grab with two hands and peel like an ax.

    And what in a real battle was somehow cut differently?
    1. groks
      groks 25 November 2017 19: 07 New
      0
      Where are the nicks on the butt? There can be more than one opponent - one shield is not enough for all. Samurai with shields even on "historical" pictures is somehow not very. And what a shield, if weak Japanese have two-handed swords.
      In general, try to inflict a chopping blow and then fend off the enemy, turning the blade 180 degrees .... I suggest to try with a stick.
      With gloves you can. But. With active work, gloves simply slide off your hands. Checked.
      And nothing about the gauntlets. They will be heavier than these shortcomings, it makes no sense to use all kinds of skins with high adhesion with them, this was not the case in Europe, because there is no point. This little brooch with their little ones is simply lost in mittens. Iai-do in plate gauntlets ... sur. And what are "plate"? They had bamboo armor.
      In real combat, sabers didn’t do anything. And swords. And swords. And bayonets.
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 25 November 2017 20: 59 New
        +1
        Quote: groks
        There can be more than one opponent - one shield is not enough for all.

        When they came up with the history of Japan - they forgot about shields - because then they were no longer used, and now they are too late to rush about, not to correct another mistake of historians.
      2. Rakti-kali
        Rakti-kali 26 November 2017 02: 59 New
        0
        Quote: groks
        Where are the nicks on the butt?

        Google the Kirikome.
      3. Rakti-kali
        Rakti-kali 26 November 2017 11: 37 New
        +3
        Quote: groks
        They had bamboo armor.

        Mostly made of leather. And from metal. And they look like wooden ones due to the fact that they are covered with wooden varnish (the climate there is humid and the varnish prevents the skin from rotting and the iron is actively oxidized).
        By the way, after meeting with the Portuguese in Japan, it became enough to forge massive European-style armor - solid forged cuirasses and helmets a la morion.
        1. groks
          groks 26 November 2017 14: 03 New
          +1
          What is wood lacquer? Varnish is generally transparent, which is why it differs from paint. It can give color and emphasize texture. If it is painted with a hammer enamel, some will take it for metal, well, who remembers what a hammer is.
          Metal pads are required to leave marks on the cutting edge of the weapon - this is their job. Is it there? This is not there. The dent-vysherbina can and should be polished during regrinding. All is well and right. Only after a few regrinds from the sword will little remain. Fuck with him, with a balance, to whom he gave up at all when chopping with two hands with a dead grip. But it can break at any moment! How to fight this?
          And these humanitarians are rubbing us in that they are battle swords with a thousand-year biography.
          After the Portuguese and Spanish began to forge, and buy and use. Giving all sorts of fintflushki local flavor. Yes, and it was not in the year 900. The Spaniards sold them, because they no longer held the bullet at all. Hmmm ... maybe the Spaniards and the remnants of swords, after regrinding to unacceptable values ​​already, sold out? But it turns out quite logically that a normal European sword would not work for a Japanese, they could probably reforgen or simply regrind it already in the 18th century.
          1. Grid
            Grid 26 November 2017 14: 54 New
            0
            And these humanitarians are rubbing us in that they are battle swords with a thousand-year biography.

            The Katanas were never fighting swords. It was the "Espada La Pierra" in the Japanese surroundings. That is, a sword with a suit. That is a status, but not very military weapon. Moreover, katana appeared only in the middle of the 18th century.
            1. groks
              groks 26 November 2017 15: 31 New
              0
              Everything from the name is clear. What is the name of training complexes in tremors?
              Well, it turns out that katanas are absolutely not talking about anything. A normal person is not told. Historians can suck anything out of them. Although the Japanese are descendants of aliens, the katans were originally lightsabers.
          2. kalibr
            26 November 2017 18: 50 New
            +2
            What is wood lacquer? Varnish of Japanese lacquer wood.
            1. groks
              groks 26 November 2017 21: 09 New
              0
              Is it a varnish? Then it is transparent. Those. not paint. And to hide the material on which it is applied, can not. If a pigment insoluble in it is added to the varnish, then this is called paint. But what's the difference. We take the kitchen knife more and more, we hit the varnished piece of iron, a week manually remove the blade, losing a few mm of the blade width. We try to cut a bamboo fishing rod with the same knife, we work as a grinder for another week, we lose a few more mm of width. We treat the cut fingers and go to beat the faces of those who exhibited remake for the war of 900.
          3. Rakti-kali
            Rakti-kali 27 November 2017 01: 27 New
            0
            Quote: groks
            What is wood lacquer?

            Google the "varnish tree."
      4. abrakadabre
        abrakadabre April 2 2018 00: 54 New
        0
        Iai-do in plate gauntlets ... sur.
        Why yai-do in battle? What are you about?!! fool Why exercise in battle in quickly pulling out a clique from a scabbard? The enemy already knows that you came to the field to cut it. And the crowd and spears comes at you. Yes, even from bows, a bastard shells. Here that yai-do that yai-after ... Not so much in general.
        Most of Asia was also not very friendly with plate gauntlets. Because massively fired from a bow. Try yourself in archery in archery.
    2. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 26 November 2017 09: 15 New
      +2
      Quote: DesToeR
      then why did you use shields in Europe? Is the sword too expensive to take a hit on itself?

      But ... there seemed to be amateurs to use a two-handed sword? And, if you had to wave two handles in such a “little way”, then the shield was already not handy to use ... what protection methods could be applied? It may be not without reason that in some folk (!) Fairy tales a description of such skill is found: a fencer so skillfully rotates a blade over his head that he manages not to get wet in the rain.
  15. DesToeR
    DesToeR 25 November 2017 19: 25 New
    +3
    Quote: groks
    Where are the nicks on the butt?

    Why should they be there? The warrior was in armor - and they took a hit on themselves. Or was a medieval knight in full armor and a two-handed sword fighting otherwise?
    Quote: groks
    Samurai with shields even on "historical" pictures is somehow not very.

    Everything is correct. If you have full armor, then why shield?
    Quote: groks
    I suggest to try with a stick.

    No tips needed. Give an answer to a simple question: why did the European peoples use shields.
    Quote: groks
    With gloves you can. But. With active work, gloves simply slide off your hands. Checked.

    As I understand it, there are no arguments. The sword was not used with a bare hand. In addition, lacing was performed on the hilt of Japanese swords, over the skin of a scad. Have you tried to tie up gloves for ammunition?
    Quote: groks
    And nothing about the gauntlets. They will be heavier than these shortcomings, it makes no sense to use all kinds of skins with high adhesion with them, this was not the case in Europe, because there is no point.

    In Europe, exactly the same plate armor was used. The meaning is to protect the brush, incl. and from bloody mazoles.
    Quote: groks
    In real combat, sabers didn’t do anything. And swords. And swords. And bayonets.

    In real combat, fencing was on the tenth priority. He learned two or three hits - and into battle.
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 25 November 2017 21: 03 New
      0
      Quote: DesToeR
      Everything is correct. If you have full armor, then why shield?

      When scientific and technological progress came to full armor, firearms were already used in full and the shields were no longer used because of their complete uselessness against rifles and muskets.
    2. groks
      groks 25 November 2017 21: 48 New
      +1
      When striking armor, traces also remain on the blade. It is easily checked with the notorious kitchen knife. Anyway, the blade is sharpened.
      If you try with a stick, then there simply will not be any questions. I do not propose to believe me, I propose to verify. verification is extremely simple in all cases. Stick, sandpaper, gloves.
      Quote: DesToeR
      The sword was not used with a bare hand. In addition, lacing was performed on the hilt of Japanese swords, over the skin of a scad. Have you tried to tie up gloves for ammunition?

      This is already some kind of inhuman perversion. Why is it something to wind over the skin?
      Do you tie up gloves? And plate - rivet? To weapons? What for? They are from the skin of a ramp and so will not go anywhere, they crawl from their hands.
      In Europe there were plate gauntlets, but highly abrasive skins were not glued to the hilt of swords. Meaning? The skin blurs in one workout.
      A trained fighter has a great chance of survival and has a great ... slaughter. Those. he himself is interested and the command is interested. Samurai are served in general as a super-elite - just by feeling (the wind of death seems), the three robbers halted backward and waved back.

      Again. No one can be trusted. Moreover, Henry Aloizych died a long time ago, so absolutely no one. So we check everything. Moreover, it is very simple and does not require any special knowledge and devices.
      If there is no way to look at a kitchen knife, wave with a shtaketin, then you need to at least warn - I live in a perpendicular reality and I don’t have a material body, the whole experience of earthly reality is only from art books and films from Shaw Kosugi.
      1. abrakadabre
        abrakadabre April 2 2018 01: 14 New
        +1
        It is easily checked with the notorious kitchen knife. Anyway, the blade is sharpened.
        What are you smoking there? What kind of kitchen knife? Do you even know how to sharpen a blade, depending on what you plan to cut or chop? Especially if you hit hard. Take a look at the library and look in the tool sharpening angles reference. From cutting soft materials to chopping carbon steel. Discover a new world.
        Do you tie up gloves? And plate - rivet? To weapons? What for? They are from the skin of a ramp and so will not go anywhere, they crawl from their hands.
        Well, you have such hands. They don’t slide at all, but they slide at you. It’s worth checking your hands. Maybe this is innate? How many did and used plate gauntlets - nothing ever slipped. And in itself, and even with a strap fastened on the wrist all the more.
        In Europe there were plate gauntlets, but highly abrasive skins were not glued to the hilt of swords. Meaning? The skin blurs in one workout.
        What did you get to the status weapon? !!! The handle of the parade sword of some Karl the Fifth, too, was all wearing trousers, gold cords. Or there are ivory carved. Why would he fight such beauty in a plate mitten all day long? He has a whole army to fight. And not one. The same is with the Japanese.
        Again. No one can be trusted.
        To you all the more.
        If there is no way to look at a kitchen knife
        If you suggested comparing it with the blade of an army bayonet-knife, officer’s dagger, machete, or the blade of an ordinary ax, then this is back and forth. And so ... Your knowledge in combat blade weapons of the armor era is
        in perpendicular reality and material body I do not have, the whole experience of earthly reality only from art books and films from Shaw Kosugi.
  16. kalibr
    25 November 2017 20: 04 New
    +3
    Quote: groks
    And nothing about the gauntlets. They will be heavier than these shortcomings, it makes no sense to use all kinds of skins with high adhesion with them, this was not the case in Europe, because there is no point.

    Museums in Western Europe are full of plate gloves and mittens. Only in August was in the Armory of Dresden and in the Meissen Museum, as well as in the arsenals of a number of Czech castles. In Japan, gloves licked at the sleeves, or rather fastened with a special button. You argue in vain. You better just read my book, Samurai, or Nosov’s book, Weapons of a Samurai, or Turnbull’s book, Samurai, and then talk about something.
  17. groks
    groks 25 November 2017 21: 55 New
    0
    Quote: kalibr
    gloves licked at the sleeves

    ??? What did the gloves do? I will now be afraid of them.
    1. kalibr
      26 November 2017 07: 54 New
      0
      They were tied up, of course. The font is small.
  18. kalibr
    26 November 2017 07: 56 New
    +3
    Quote: groks
    They had bamboo armor.

    Who told you such nonsense? Read, read, you need more good books ...
  19. kalibr
    26 November 2017 08: 09 New
    +1
    Setrac,
    We have our own party, you have your own. You thank God that there are people who are posing something else popular for you.
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 26 November 2017 11: 02 New
      +2
      Quote: kalibr
      Setrac,
      We have our own party, you have your own. You thank God that there are people who are posing something else popular for you.

      But you do not state anything, do not explain the questions of interest, you have become in such a position of denial.
      Quote: kalibr
      Your opinion does not matter. No one will ask you - to print my materials or not, to publish my books or not, to award a grant or not, so what are you talking about? Engineer on. Good luck!

      If you were a real specialist, you would easily convince me, explain it, but you cannot do this, which characterizes you accordingly.
  20. kalibr
    26 November 2017 08: 19 New
    +2
    Grid,
    Grill, these are all empty words, you understand. Once again I repeat: Your opinion does not matter. No one will ask you - to print my materials or not, to publish my books or not, to award a grant or not, so what are you talking about? Engineer on. Good luck! You need to understand that you and I, as aliens from different planets, will not understand each other, because we belong to different layers of society and we have different opportunities for disseminating information. You want to be heard and this is the right of a modern person. But this does not mean that it, being realized, has at least some significance. By the way, I have not been teaching the history of the CPSU for 27 years. During this time, you can get a bunch of second and even third higher educations, so this profession is not nailed to me with nails. And you repeat all one and one. What does this indicate?
    1. Grid
      Grid 26 November 2017 09: 53 New
      +2
      I repeat again: your opinion does not matter.

      Actually, I don’t give a damn about your senility from a high hill either.
      No one will ask you - to print my materials or not, to publish my books or not, to award a grant or not, so what are you talking about?

      Well, why? They ask.
      You need to understand that you and I, as aliens from different planets, will not understand each other, because we belong to different layers of society and we have different opportunities for disseminating information.

      "And get up! When the second lieutenant speaks to you!"
      Once again, Shpakovsky, you are a narcissistic type with a clearly overestimated self-esteem. You were often beaten in childhood?
      By the way, I have not been teaching the history of the CPSU for 27 years.

      In short, when citizen Shpakovsky lost his only job for which he was professionally prepared, he ran into a place where he did not understand his ear or snout.
      1. kalibr
        26 November 2017 16: 23 New
        +2
        Hello to the lineman! They are, of course, cooler than the experts of the Russian Humanitarian Science Foundation.
  21. groks
    groks 26 November 2017 08: 52 New
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    Who told you such nonsense? Read, read, you need more good books ...

    No need to read. You have to think with your own head. If the armor was made of metal, then the swords should be serrated by hitting them. Even when chopping dried bamboo, it is inevitable to over-grind. Therefore, specular gloss and full width can only be remake.
    1. Rakti-kali
      Rakti-kali 26 November 2017 11: 35 New
      +3
      Quote: groks
      Therefore, specular gloss and full width can only be remake.

      Or blades that have not been in long-term intensive use.
    2. Grid
      Grid 27 November 2017 14: 56 New
      0
      You have to think with your own head.

      Did you offer this to MOST Shpakovsky?
      I'm out of your courage ...
  22. DesToeR
    DesToeR 26 November 2017 12: 11 New
    +2
    Quote: groks
    No need to read. You have to think with your own head.

    You can not read. On YouTube there is a ton of information on armor, swords and how to use them. From historians, archaeologists and reconstructors in one bottle. It will be a revelation for you that it makes no sense to strike with steel swords with a sword. The sword does not even take chain mail with a chopping blow. It was for this reason that a mace, a coinage and an ax were used.
    Quote: Rakti-Kali
    If the armor was made of metal, then the swords should be serrated by hitting them.

    In 9 cases out of 10, a sword was used to chop a target unprotected by any armor. Where are the notches from? Look at the photographs of drafts 19v, are there many notches on them?
    1. groks
      groks 26 November 2017 14: 17 New
      0
      It is clear - swords are not for war, it is an exclusively decorative and punitive tool. Otherwise, the logic of the sword-armor pair is simply incomprehensible. What for then dragged a piece of iron with them a few pounds?
      And do not talk about YouTube. There is a video there, when two in tin armor hit this armor with a sword the thickness of a metal ruler. "Well, see ...".
      In the 19th century, were the soldiers in armor? And they, such armored, chopped down with sabers? Fucking opening. What is it then? http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/4248621/post2458
      71167
    2. Grid
      Grid 26 November 2017 14: 59 New
      0
      The sword does not even take chain mail with a chopping blow.

      The question is what kind of sword and what chain mail. And so, even without breaking through the armor, the sword could completely break the bones.
      1. groks
        groks 26 November 2017 15: 52 New
        +1
        We went through it. He told ASH in detail. Pushers came, asked to make protection so that it was possible to train with almost real weapons. The chain mail fell away immediately - after evaluating the results of striking the mannequin in the chain mail and armor (8mm felt), we decided that fractures were inevitable. And to make and connect (!) A bucket of rings ....
        The 2mm sheet was also not very good protection from the imitator (imitator, but otherwise - the Criminal Code) of the sword. Misses from good hits. And I remind you that the clavicle, in order to break down, is enough static equivalent of only 14 kg. But the weight turned out to be monstrous and mobility is not at all like that of those boys on YouTube.
        1. abrakadabre
          abrakadabre April 2 2018 01: 25 New
          0
          The 2mm sheet was also not very good protection from the imitator (imitator, but otherwise - the Criminal Code) of the sword.
          You have a strange sheet. You mixed up iron with a duralumin. Of the 2 mm ordinary st3, the entire HMB makes helmets. And this is the thickest piece of armor. Dents even from halberds are not dangerous. And from swords (imitators) in general about anything. I have my work helmet on my avatar. From st3 2 mm. Already the third year as in tournaments used. The owner is still healthy, healthy and cheerful. A few times straightened minor (up to 3 mm deep) dents. No more. And this is the norm, not the exception.
          Or do you have any particularly soft special steels available?
          1. groks
            groks April 2 2018 10: 09 New
            0
            The point is as follows. When a head is struck, it is not a dent that is dangerous, as it turned out, the impulse that is transmitted to the helmet is dangerous. Breaking the cervical vertebrae. Therefore, we did not conduct such experiments even on a mannequin.
            And so, when you hit the bib, 2mm of rawhide is snapped to the depth of the under arm around.
            1. abrakadabre
              abrakadabre April 2 2018 14: 32 New
              +1
              When a head is struck, it is not a dent that is dangerous, as it turned out, the impulse that is transmitted to the helmet is dangerous. Breaking the cervical vertebrae.
              Here, in order to reduce compression on the neck, helmets are now made from st3, and not from hardened steel. Although they also make of it, but much less often. So that the impact energy goes to crushing the metal, and not elastically transferred further. Hot helmets are made either for joining, where it is necessary to withstand the blow of the spear at full gallop, or top fighters, who are much less likely to receive blows than they distribute them themselves. At the same time, the helmet, like armor in general, is hot to a hardness of not more than 40 hrc. More often within 34-36 hrc. Then steel is much stronger than just not a hardened construction, but there is no fragility and there is quite noticeable ductility. That is, the helmet also misses, only much weaker and with a much greater load. And it does not spring like a spring or does not crack like hot products to the limit.
    3. Rakti-kali
      Rakti-kali 27 November 2017 01: 33 New
      +1
      Quote: DesToeR
      Quote: Rakti-Kali
      If the armor was made of metal, then the swords should be serrated by hitting them.
      In 9 cases out of 10, a sword was used to chop a target unprotected by any armor. Where are the notches from? Look at the photographs of drafts 19v, are there many notches on them?

      Who are you quoting? Certainly not me.
    4. saigon
      saigon 26 March 2018 15: 33 New
      0
      Of course, I apologize, but there is no joy from the word at all to get a blow to the chain mail with a sword. Yes, and if the blow comes at the end of the sword, then the chain mail does not burst that whole, but the rings break.
      So ideally they take a blow to the shield.
  23. Artem Korshunov
    Artem Korshunov 26 November 2017 16: 04 New
    0
    100 Spanish knights weakened 2000 Japanese ronin (what can we say samurai)
  24. kalibr
    26 November 2017 16: 26 New
    +1
    Quote: Setrac
    But you do not state anything, you do not explain the questions of interest, you have become in such a position of denial

    There will be 4 materials - read. Want more - buy a Nosov book or read on the Web ... Or Terbull. Yes, and mine is not bad ...
    1. michey
      michey 26 November 2017 19: 57 New
      0
      Do not think about advertising your book? take it so bad? however, no wonder.
      1. kalibr
        26 November 2017 20: 35 New
        +1
        No, they take it just very well, almost nothing is left from the circulation. But I would like a second edition. And besides, I advertise Nosov’s book no less, I’m putting my own in the end ...
  25. kalibr
    26 November 2017 16: 27 New
    +1
    Quote: Grille
    Well, why? They ask.

    And who? Head of the railway department of the Russian Federation? If you really want your opinion to be listened to, then you get it this way: in one of the magazines you publish several articles on topics that are close to your work, let's say about steam locomotives during the Second World War, projects of "atomic trains", armored trains Boer war, etc. After that, you can take a couple of steps left and right - to publish articles already on the topic of "gun armored trains", "air defense armored trains" ... then a few more steps - in the other direction. That is, when you turn to the editor of a publication, you could say - I have so many articles there and there. I’m not talking about scientific articles, you don’t need it, but um - why not. Then comes the turn of the monograph, for example, “Locomotives of the Country of Soviets”. Publish it, with us, contact the foreign publishing houses, with the theme "Railway Troops of the USSR." There they may well take it. So achieve 2-3 monographs. Then gradually expand your range so that the list of publishers is impressive. Only then will the editors and everyone else listen to you. To start, start with VO, prepare a couple of materials. I think the administration will treat your desire to cooperate with understanding and interest.
    1. Grid
      Grid 27 November 2017 15: 00 New
      0
      And who? Head of the railway department of the Russian Federation?

      People, baby, people ...
      But the nonsense that you wrote further, he amused me very much ...
  26. The comment was deleted.
  27. DesToeR
    DesToeR 26 November 2017 17: 17 New
    +2
    Quote: groks
    Otherwise, the logic of the sword-armor pair is simply incomprehensible.

    Logic will appear if you understand that most of your opponents on the battlefield have a helmet at best, and a weapon and a spear from weapons.
    Quote: groks
    In the 19th century, were the soldiers in armor?

    And in the Middle Ages everyone fought in armor?
    Quote: Grille
    The question is what kind of sword and what chain mail. And so, even without breaking through the armor, the sword could completely break the bones.

    Why cut with an expensive sword with no penetration, if you can crush the bones with a much cheaper mace?
    Quote: groks
    The 2mm sheet was also not very good protection from the imitator (imitator, but otherwise - the Criminal Code) of the sword. Misses from good hits.

    A sheet is missed, and not a part with stiffening ribs (cuirass for example), or the same plates fixed to chain mail. Well and most importantly: if you could not kill the enemy with your blow, then where is the guarantee that you will have a second chance? They didn’t chop down the enemy in armor with a sword, but pricked or cut them. And in places poorly protected by armor: armpits, throat, joints. They finished off a bloodless / wounded adversary as anything.
    1. groks
      groks 26 November 2017 21: 23 New
      0
      So I did not understand - why the sword? What is the use of this iron shafting, if it is better to swing a ball with a mace and poke into unprotected places better with a sword?
    2. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre April 2 2018 01: 29 New
      0
      Do not distract a person, he rushing from his own "wisdom". In this state, your arguments will not be heard.
  28. Grid
    Grid 26 November 2017 18: 32 New
    0
    alex-cn,
    alex-cn,
    Yeah. I noticed. But his arguments do not convince me. You see, hysterical screams on the topic: "I am scientist", "I have works, and you about this" well, etc., etc. they have about the same relation to truth as I do to ballet.
    And Shpakovsky was just in time a repainted teacher of the history of the CPSU with an awesome sense of his own superiority over the whole world, which is climbing into areas that are not accessible to his understanding.
    1. kalibr
      26 November 2017 18: 41 New
      +2
      Grill, I think I wrote to you very calmly what to do, you are throwing a tantrum with spits from the mountain here. Although it may have confused you with another person who is a traveler, while you are a process engineer, if I am not mistaken. Do you want to follow this advice, if you want to, but I don’t see another way for you personally. In the comments to other people's articles you will not go far.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Grid
        Grid 28 November 2017 10: 29 New
        0
        Baby, can you arrange an excursion according to your comments?
  29. kalibr
    26 November 2017 18: 58 New
    +1
    Setrac,
    I already wrote to you that I have every right to do so. He wrote about Japanese military history in the books Knights of the East, Historiography of Knightly Arms, Atlas of Samurai and Samurai. The First Complete Encyclopedia. The reviewers of the last two books were specialists from the Institute of Oriental Studies of the Russian Academy of Sciences, and a grant from the Russian Humanitarian Research Foundation was received. What other proof of competency do you need?
    1. Grid
      Grid 1 December 2017 15: 30 New
      0
      What other proof of competency do you need?

      Sanity, Mr. Shpakovsky, only sanity.
      Z.Y. No one’s regalia affects me in any way, you can at least be a British lord, at least a Nobel’s deputy, but the fact that you are talking nonsense, and at the same time she’s screaming loudly, doesn’t hide from me, sometimes a very simple and modest engineer .
      And he sent, and still send sometimes, peppers are much cooler than you.
      1. kalibr
        2 December 2017 16: 44 New
        +1
        Contact your opinion at the Institute of Oriental Studies of the Russian Academy of Sciences and tell us what they overlooked ... but you found a "very simple and modest engineer" ... This is the only way to at least fix something!
  30. kalibr
    26 November 2017 20: 52 New
    +1
    Quote: Setrac
    This whole debate relates us generally to the contestation of history as a science, its pseudo-scientific methods and propaganda goals.

    This is not an argument! This is nothing unjustified statement of a person who does not know the subject. This is found in the modern world, this is the cost of the information society. But experts ignore such statements.
    1. Grid
      Grid 27 November 2017 15: 04 New
      0
      This is not an argument!

      Indeed, you should not argue with the stoned one ...
  31. DesToeR
    DesToeR 26 November 2017 22: 15 New
    +2
    Quote: groks
    So I did not understand - why the sword? What is the use of this iron shafting, if it is better to swing a ball with a mace and poke into unprotected places better with a sword?

    Well, something like this. The main weapon is a spear. Further, when the spear was broken or remained in the carcass of the enemy, a mace or coin was used. And the sword, especially one and a half, was not usually "carried" with oneself - it was fixed on the saddle. And the one that they carried with them quickly evolved into the so-called a sword - it’s easier, and there was enough to stab a person. You cannot cut armor with a one-handed sword, a saber, or a saber. Unless, of course, push the enemy to the ground and cut with several blows in one place.
    1. groks
      groks 27 November 2017 07: 57 New
      0
      Then the meaning of the armor is unclear. They do not work very well against maces. Throw away the armor, all that was saved in the shield - at least what will be the benefit.
      1. Michael_Zverev
        Michael_Zverev 27 November 2017 13: 57 New
        0
        The shield, firstly, it is on the one hand, and secondly, it occupies one hand, making it impossible for both to act.
      2. abrakadabre
        abrakadabre April 2 2018 01: 36 New
        0
        Then the meaning of the armor is unclear. They do not work very well against maces.
        Put on the armor, go into battle. Although it is a modern sport, it is beaten with a dull halberd on the head, shoulders, back. More precisely, the scope of the w ... py. Catch a couple of these attacks and you will understand this Zen - the armor really protects. And against the mace too. It’s worse against a six-gear and a klevts. And by the way, depending on what age the armor is. Full plate - weight, I tell you.
  32. DesToeR
    DesToeR 27 November 2017 12: 12 New
    +1
    Quote: groks
    Then the meaning of the armor is unclear.

    It is believed that the development of armor was more influenced by the crossbow, but not the sword. A shield or chain mail rescued well from a sword. From the crossbow bolt is gone.
    Quote: groks
    They do not work very well against maces.

    So against scrap there is no reception.
    1. groks
      groks 27 November 2017 16: 51 New
      0
      It is believed that the crossbow nullified the armor. Because they did not protect against a crossbow.
      1. Grid
        Grid 3 December 2017 03: 20 New
        0
        Protected. And they protected us from the musket. But the horse of a comrade in such armor could not be taken away. Naturally, such a character could not move independently.
  33. mirag2
    mirag2 29 November 2017 16: 59 New
    0
    Grid,
    But I heard from so many people that Japanese swords are made of very low-quality steel. For another it is impossible to create from the raw materials available on the islands.
    1. GIN
      GIN 29 November 2017 19: 16 New
      0
      Yeah, the Japanese sword was made in a miserable likeness of the damask process, with the right approach, they could have done
    2. Grid
      Grid 1 December 2017 15: 21 New
      0
      But I heard from so many people that Japanese swords are made of very low-quality steel.

      Absolutely right. In Japan, the ore is also quite lousy, except for a couple of places where you can wash the raw materials on the heels of blades for a year. And most importantly, they have problems with the tree. Accordingly, due to the lack of coal, the Japanese could not reproduce crucible remelting of iron. Hence the problems.
    3. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre April 2 2018 01: 37 New
      0
      For another cannot be created from the raw materials available on the islands.
      Can. with due diligence and perseverance. Because it is very expensive. And from good steel, blades are only for the very rich.
  34. kalibr
    2 December 2017 16: 41 New
    +1
    Quote: Grille
    very simple and modest engineer

    A very simple and modest engineer is not a rank!
    1. Grid
      Grid 3 December 2017 14: 48 New
      0
      Baby, what I want and what I don’t, I myself will somehow decide, without your wise advice.
  35. Grid
    Grid 3 December 2017 14: 37 New
    0
    alex-cn,
    When this aftyrya is poked in his own shit, the yong tactfully writes down as a "humanitarianist" and begins to push his ranks.
    By the way, his passage, to my remark in this thread, you can go to the top and see:
    I do not need links and photos, they do not prove anything. I have a lot of my own photos of European swords, so what? And I know about the arsenal in Graz, so what?
  36. Grid
    Grid 20 July 2018 14: 28 New
    0
    alex-cn,
    the caliber is different from many in that it can listen to opponents

    I don’t need to tell these tales to me.
    Shpakovsky is a simple teacher of the history of the CPSU. But never an engineer.
    You may or may not believe. I honestly don’t give a damn.
  37. Grid
    Grid 23 July 2018 14: 51 New
    0
    alex-cn,
    This is you in vain ... the caliber differs from many in that it can listen to opponents

    Are you this to yourself?
    Shpakovsky is an absolute amateur, brought up in the USSR and constantly spitting on this state. In addition, this misunderstanding thinks that he is a cool engineer, which he is never.
    IT once declared to me that it has a fucking amount of "publications", but I haven’t (really not, I actually work, and I don’t rewrite my mood). Moreover, this pepper is a PLAGIATOR.
  38. Pancher88
    Pancher88 7 January 2020 05: 37 New
    0
    Chinese swords found in Japanese Kofun burials. An interesting ring on the handle. In Europe, ring-shaped tops in the Middle Ages had swords from And
    ireland.

    Not really ... The most interesting thing is that similar swords (or rather broadswords) with similar ring tops are found in some places in Europe. Moreover, in the same time period as the burial of Kofun in Japan (4-7 centuries AD). I am talking about Avar and Bulgarian burials in Eastern Europe and the Balkans. Moreover, the identity of the samples leaves no doubt that we are dealing with one cultural tradition, the source of which is the territory of modern Mongolia, Manchuria and northern China in the 4th-5th centuries A.D.