The increasingly dangerous look of the Virginia creates a real problem for the small series of Ash.

96

The multi-purpose nuclear submarine SSN-787 USS "Washington" class "Virginia Block III" launched on April 13 2016, the shipyard "Newport News Shipbuilding", submarine bomber and "torpedo hunter" is the 14-th submarine "Virginia" class


Multipurpose low-noise nuclear submarines, carriers of torpedo, rocket-torpedo and rocket weapons, form today the leading naval component to establish dominance in remote areas of the Asia-Pacific region, in the Atlantic, and also under the ice of the strategically important Arctic region. In peacetime, the range of primary tasks of this type of submarines includes: conducting long-term sonar reconnaissance in the areas of operation of the ship and aircraft carrier strike groups of a potential enemy without opening their own location (bow spherical GAK and flexible long towed antenna operate in a passive mode), covert tracking of the CUG and action analysis, monitoring of coastal naval infrastructure. During the escalation: the application of massed anti-ship strikes against the enemy's CUG / AUG by means of the Sub-Garpoon anti-ship missiles and anti-ship modifications of the Tomahawk launched - UGM-109B / E TASM / TLAM-E, and the destruction of military naval bases, as well as suppression of the enemy's air / missile defense system through the massive use of the same TFR family. In emergency situations, MAPL can strike enemy submarines and surface ships with torpedoes and anti-submarine guided missiles with a range from a few hundred meters to a hundred and fifty kilometers.



The importance of reconnaissance and strike operations puts these submarines almost on the same level as strategic missile submarines with SLBMs on board. The noise reduction technologies embodied in them are on the same level or even surpass those achievements that are implemented in the design of SSBNs for ballistic missile carriers. Submarines of this class are developed and adopted by the fleets only in the most technologically advanced countries of the world - Russia, the USA, Great Britain, France, China and India. However, the most advanced and flexible MAPL / SSGNs in combat use belong to fleets Russia, USA and, with a stretch, China. Despite the ultra-low-noise water-jet propulsion, the British promising multi-purpose Astute nuclear submarines are equipped with only six bow 533-mm torpedo tubes, while the module with a universal built-in vertical launcher is absent. This indicates that the low-noise British submarine, with all its acoustic perfection and the highly sensitive integrated sonar system Thales 2076, has on board a very limited arsenal of Tomahawk ASF modifications and other tactical and strategic missiles with a single 531-mm caliber. Moreover, there will be no possibility of using the long-range, inconspicuous anti-ship missiles AGM-158C LRASM, which will narrow the capabilities of the Estuity in the fight against enemy surface ships (the technology for launching LRASM from torpedo tubes has not yet been developed, and the Tomahawks have a significantly larger EPR, which makes them more vulnerable to modern naval air defense systems).

There is no so-called “rocket banquet” in the French promising MAPL class “Barracuda”. To launch tactical long-range cruise missiles SCALP Naval, torpedoes F21 "Artemis" and anti-ship missiles SM39 Block 2 uses 4 533-mm TA. At the same time, the compartment with ammunition for TA is small and can accommodate only 24 rocket and torpedo armament units, which is almost 1,6 times worse than the British Astute MAPL. The only advantage of the promising French submarine is the original design of the hull and tail. The high-strength steel casing 8,8 m wide allows you to dive to a depth of 400 m, while the Astute has an operating depth of about 300 — 320 m. The Barracuda also has X-shaped tail feathers with steering surfaces, which allows them to maintain their effectiveness when rotation angles up to 90 degrees. Moreover, stabilizers installed at an angle of 45 ° reduce the radar signature of the submarine during the surface run and hydroacoustic during the submarine. At this all the benefits end. Not only does the “Astute” class MAPL carry a larger arsenal of armament, one and a half times, their autonomy is almost 2 times higher than that of the French “Barracuda” (90 vs. 50 days, respectively).

The most advanced multipurpose nuclear-powered submarine carrier cruisers of missile-torpedo armament today are Russian submarines of the 885 Alyan Ave. and American submarines of the Virginia class. Submarines of the 885 “Ash” avenue are distinguished by: low acoustic and radar visibility due to the use of rubber / composite coatings with a set of noise suppression at frequencies 50 — 500 Hz and shock-absorbing platforms for the steam generating installation and the Mirage PTU, the possibility of operating at depths 550 — 600 m , the largest, in comparison with foreign counterparts, underwater displacement in 13800 tons (7800 t - in “Estyut”, 5300 t - in “Barracuda” and 7925 t - in “Virginia”), the greatest autonomy in 100 days.

The universal shock shooting complex UKKS 3Р-14В is represented by a modern universal universal vertical silo SM-346, consisting of 8 x 4 revolver PU, located in the 2 series (on the sides of the hull) along 4 transport-starting stationary "drums". This "rocket banquet" is very compact and is not issued for forming the body. The versatility of these launchers lies in the fact that they can accommodate a solid range of 32 rocket strike weapons, in particular: 2,5-flywheel, highly maneuverable anti-ship missiles 3М55 (П-800) "Onyx", low-profile strategic missiles, launching missiles, unobtrusive strategic missiles, launching systems, rocket missile systems, and unobtrusive strategic missiles, launching systems, rocket missiles "With a range of up to 3 — 14 km; promising SCR X-2000 / 2600; anti-ship missiles 101М102Э3 Caliber PL, with 54 flywheel stage (1 km range), promising hypersonic PCR 3MNHMNHMNHMNHMXNXX

The most interesting weapons are 533-mm 2,5-flywheel ballistic anti-submarine guided missiles 91REX1 Caliber PLE, capable of hitting enemy submarines at a distance of 50 km with a launch depth of 50 m. surface ships with long-range KZRK families of SM-91 or PAAMS, which easily intercept PLUR. From 1 6-mm torpedo tubes located in the central part of the submarine, a wide range of rocket-torpedo armament of the Caliber family and modern torpedoes Fizic-10 and Case can also be used. Consequently, multipurpose nuclear submarine cruisers of the Ave 533 are able to take on board up to 1 units. rocket and torpedo weapons. At the moment, the level of acoustic stealth of MAPL K-885 “Severodvinsk” is not quite up to the indicators of MAPL class “Virginia” and “Sea Wolf”, which is due to the use of the classic screw. The water-jet propulsion unit can be installed on a modernized version of the 62M Yasen-M pr. Submarines.

The heart of the Russian SSGNs of 885 / M is the advanced military information and control system “Okrug”, which aggregates information from the Irtysh-Amphora-Yapen integrated sonar system, a low-frequency flexible long-distance towed GPSA antenna terminal, and an ACL terminal into a single network-centric picture. information exchange "Structure", etc. For defensive purposes, submarines of the 600 / M Pr. Can use 885-mm TA of non-rechargeable type for launching torpedo-made underwater vehicles of the MG-533 "Throw", MG-104 "Beryl" and MG-114 "Shlagbaum". »The best practices previously used in the 324 3 Pike-B, 971 (K) Lyra and 705A Antey projects are embodied.


The high-speed torpedo nuclear submarine of 705 Ave. “Lira” possessed an underwater speed of up to 41 of a node with a minimum underwater displacement of 3180 tons, typical of modern anaerobic diesel-electric submarines with a short range of underwater operation


In contrast to the Malachite St. Petersburg Marine Engineering Bureau, the American corporations General Dynamics Electric and Northrop Grumman, taking into account the wishes of the representatives of the US Navy command, initially chose a slightly different approach to the design of multi-purpose submarines Virginia. The experience gained in the course of work on the ultra low noise multipurpose sea torpedo submarine shock submarine project was taken into account. For example, the SSN-774 “Virginia” head unit of Block I modification, launched on October 23 2004, received a water-propeller, which noticeably increases the acoustic secrecy in comparison with the Pike-B and 971 “Ash” 885 projects. Emphasis was also placed on the compactness of the hull and the highest parameters of onboard electronic equipment (including the CICS and GAK).

As a result, it was possible to achieve the width of the hull 10,4 m and the underwater displacement of 7925 tons, which is approximately 1,7 times less than that of “Ash”: it was the smaller diameter of the submarine hull that became decisive. There is also information that in emergency mode of operation of a steam turbine unit with a turbo-gear unit, Virginia class submarines are able to accelerate under water to 34 units, which is a very good indicator today. The versatility of this class of submarines is also provided by the possibility of delivering combat swimmers to the theater of war who can leave the submarine through the hatch of the lock chamber located behind the torpedo and command compartments, or move to the place of operation on a low-noise underwater vehicle (mini-submarine) "Advanced SEAL Deliveri System ”(ASDS) with a displacement of 55 tons, capable of delivering 8 saboteurs to a distance of 230 km. During long hikes, ASDS transport mini-submarines are attached to the upper surface of the submarine hull above the power plant control compartment. PLARK class "Ash" similar "optional package" today is not equipped.

The submarines of the SSN "Virginia" family received a modern high-performance and highly informative C3I BIUS, which provides the crew with comprehensive information on tactical underwater, surface and air conditions, as well as on the state of all submarine subsystems, including the power plant. The main sources of information for the CICS are: the nose AN / BQQ-10 and the onboard wide-aperture GAS AN / BQG-5A. The integrated nose hydroacoustic complex AN / BQQ-10 with a multi-element spherical acoustic antenna array is distinguished by high selection abilities of sound-emitting targets in shallow water and near the littoral zone; he is able to work both in active and in passive modes. High performance is demonstrated as in the detection of enemy submarines in the second zone of acoustic illumination.


Comparison of the sonar architecture and the shock shooting complex of the submarine of the class “Virginia Batch 1” (below) and “Batch 2” (above)


It is stated that AN / BQQ-10 GAK is perfectly adapted for conducting passive sonar reconnaissance on the enemy’s small surface targets in the coastal zone, which allows timely correction of the mini-submarine route with ASDS combat swimmers to avoid detection. On the submarines of the Batch 2 (Block III) version, an even more perfect wide-aperture bow of the horseshoe-shaped LAB (“Large Aperture Bow”) will be installed. The product does not belong to the classic gas with active-passive transducers of the acoustic signal and is built of two arrays. The radiating array is represented by active elements of the middle range with a lifetime of 16 - 20 years, and the receiving one - 1800 passive hydrophones with 30-year service life.

The main advantage of the promising LAB type LAB in comparison with AN / BQQ-10A is the significantly higher sensitivity of hydrophones, which during hydro-acoustic reconnaissance in potentially dangerous waters emphasizes the passive mode of operation: sound-emitting objects can be detected at much longer distances.

Side passive acoustic antenna arrays in the amount of 6 units. provide the class "Virginia Block III" with significantly better opportunities for conducting all-aspect hydroacoustic surveillance in comparison with project 885 "Ash". In the lower bow of the submarine hull there is a so-called "chin" with an additional active-passive sonar, which allows you to map the bottom relief with the simultaneous detection of moored mines, reconnaissance underwater drones enemy, etc. Submarines of this class will also receive two types of low-frequency flexible extended towed antennas (GPBA) - large (TB-16) and small (TB-29A) diameters. As you can see, in terms of the level of acoustic secrecy, the technical capabilities of sonar systems and the possibility of participating in sabotage operations, Virginia was able to significantly outperform Ash. What can be said about its impact capabilities?

As 18 learned in July 2017, from a source in the US Navy, in the waters of the Florida Strait, test launches of the 2-s UGM-109E strategic cruise missiles "Tomahawk Block IV" of two promising 1XXNNXX universal vertical launchers were launched for the first time. VPT ("Virginia Payload Tubes") with a diameter of 6 mm, mounted on the SS III-2100 "North Dakota" multi-purpose atomic cruiser of the Block III modification (it is well known that 784 separate transport-launch glasses were installed on the MAPL "Virginia Block I / II" ). Now counting. In the two drum launchers, all 12 "Tomahawks" or other tactical cruise / anti-submarine guided missiles (similar stationary universal "launch drums" for the "Axes" are installed on SSBN class submarines "Ohio", only the difference that the 12-th central TPK is involved). More 7 “Tomahawks”, UGM-26L “Sub-Harpoon Block II” anti-ship missiles, Mk84 ADCAP torpedoes or Mk 48 CAPTOR mines can be launched from 60 4-mm torpedo tubes. Consequently, the general arsenal of rocket-torpedo equipment barely reaches 533 units. (against 38 units of our Ave 62 Pr. Ash). The superiority of the Russian multi-purpose SSGN on the face.

More importantly, “Ash” is ahead of “Virginia”, not only in quantity, but also in the quality of rocket and torpedo weapons. In the near future, the Americans will not have modern supersonic tactical / anti-ship missiles of long range. Neither the UGM-109E, nor the “Harpoons”, nor the LRASMs (if they are adapted to the VPT launchers) with the capabilities of the “breakthrough” of the ship's missile defense can match the unique domestic supersonic “Onyxes” and “Gages” of the 3М54Е1 version. By making anti-aircraft maneuvers with overloads of more than 20 units, the anti-aircraft missiles are capable of “twisting” even helicopter interceptors like the RIM-162 ESSM, not to mention the less agile RIM-174 ERAM (SM-6).

The “long arm” of the “Ash tree” can also create a lot of problems for the strategic facilities of the US Armed Forces in Eurasia and North America, because it is not only the CK 3М14Т Caliber with a radius of 2600 km, but also more serious long-range cruise missiles ( KDB) X-101 / 102 (3000 km range with a possibility of increasing to 5000 km). Moreover, the EPR X-101 / 102, due to the angular shape of the hull lines and the wider use of radio-absorbing composite materials, barely reaches 0,01 - 0,02 м2, while the "Axes" have an effective dispersion surface near 0,2 - 0,3 м2. Adaptation of promising 3М22 “Zircon” missiles to the 3Р-14 universal firing system in the 885 “Yasen” submarines will further complicate the situation of the MAPL “Virginia” with insufficient missile strike potential.

Today, the Russian submarines of the 885 Ave are 2,5 times faster than all known western multi-purpose submarines in terms of the speed of an anti-ship strike; after gaining the initial combat readiness of the Zircon, this figure will increase to 7 times. The command of the US Navy seriously “strains” this situation, and therefore, work is already underway to increase the number of VPT “drums” from two to six (the number of transport-launch glasses increases from 12 to 36, and the total ammunition on the submarine is to 62 units.). Obviously, for the 4-x new drum VPT VPT will have to cut out the space in the rear of the submarine, "squeezing" compartments control complex weapons and power plant. Additional UVPU can be introduced on the latest submarines of modification "Block III", as well as more modern "Block IV".

What do we have in the end? In the arsenal of missile-torpedo armament of the Virginia-class submarine, they still reached the level of the 885 “Ash” project, while today the submarines of the 4 generation of our submarines noticeably exceeded the submarine and surface assets of the enemy. At the same time, faster, maneuverable and heavy anti-ship missiles aboard the 885 project give the Russian Navy indisputable advantages in the fight against powerful carrier-based attack forces of the US Navy. But it’s premature to be deceived by this fact today, having rejected a fair share of hurray-patriotism, we can safely say that the planned 7 series of multi-purpose undersea nuclear cruisers of 885 / M Ave (6 of which belong to the “Ash-M” project) is a drop in the sea against the background of the shtatovskoy series of 30 ultra low-noise "submarine killers" class "Virginia", some of which will be performed in even more formidable versions of "Block IV / V".

Information sources:
http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/news/vpervye-vypolneny-puski-ur-tomahawk-iz-novyh-puskovyh-konteynerov-dlya-podvodnyh-lodok
http://bastion-karpenko.narod.ru/Virginia.html
http://bastion-karpenko.ru/885_severodvinsk/
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  1. +10
    8 August 2017 07: 33
    "... What do we have in the end? By the arsenal of rocket-torpedo the armament of the Virginia-class submarine still reached the level of Project 885 Ash, while the American submarines were already ahead of our 4th generation MAPLs in the architecture of sonar detection equipment for enemy underwater and surface means. At the same time, faster, maneuverable and heavier anti-ship missiles aboard the 885th project provide the Russian Navy with undeniable advantages in the fight against powerful aircraft carrier strike groups of the US Navy. But to be seduced by this fact is premature today, because discarding a good share of cheers-patriotism, we can safely say that the planned series of 7 multi-purpose submarine nuclear-powered cruisers, pr. 885 / M (6 of which are related to the Yasen-M project) is a drop in the bucket against the backdrop of the US series of 30 ultra-quiet “Virginia class submarine killers” , some of which will be performed in even more formidable versions of "Block IV / V."


    In my opinion - "The devil is not so formidable as he is painted ..."
    If we stagnate, then we’ll be reached, but if not? After all, you can put back into operation in a modernized version 65-76 "Whale" and not only ...
    65-76 "Whale" ". A heavy torpedo. Length - 11,3 m. Diameter - 650 mm. Weight - 4,5 tons. Speed ​​- 50 knots (sometimes indicated up to 70 knots). Cruising range - 50 km per 50 knots or 100 km at 35 knots. The mass of the warhead is 557 kg. Guidance is carried out along the wake trail ... "
    About 30 Virginia ... Americans with their unipolar doctrine have a plug in every barrel. 30 there will not be enough to the oceans, and our "Ashes" first of all need to protect the patrol areas of our strategists, and if these areas are in inland seas ..? White and Okhotsk, then 7 is quite enough so that the adversary would not come up and poke his virginia, AUG, etc., but if he turned up he got the full ...
    Wish to the author. No need to discard a good share of cheers-patriotism, it’s still useful, it’s better to discard the evil high idiocy ...
    Naturally, as a patriot I cannot finish otherwise than - "Hurray, comrades. Victory will be ours!"
    1. +7
      8 August 2017 14: 22
      I agree with you - 7 "guard dogs" may be enough to protect the Deer Bay and Krasheninnikov Bay, but is this the purpose of the "Ashen"? As "palkans" and "balls" and "diesels" they will fit, but who in the flock will attack the American and European "rams"? Pushkin?
    2. +2
      10 August 2017 11: 51
      In coastal waters, it is not necessary to disregard and DPL. They are no less quiet than Virginia, on board they have the same missiles as on Ashen. They are "no less" than American women and they are under the guise of coastal aviation, which equalizes the chances of search characteristics at least.
      What I want to say - from the point of view of defense, our submarines will be quite enough at a distance of 1000-1500 miles from our shores.
      The ocean, unfortunately, is still behind the amers. But now we would have to maintain the status quo on this or at least slightly ahead of the adversary. Then they will still think hard whether to get involved in a confrontation.
    3. Maz
      0
      14 August 2017 21: 54
      It’s nothing if I quote a sailor: “we are sitting at a depth of 660 meters in the Gulf of Mexico under a stain of oil. Above is a frigate of the type“ Airlie Burke ”, it’s bastardly beating on the“ horse ”with impulses, but we have not a single torpedo. But it hurts like an impulse he thrashes it with a sledgehammer through a spacesuit and pierces it through with a harmonica through that it’s at least howling from powerlessness. They wanted to smear it with cannons, began to look for a place to wail with a 30mm shell, Then the crap above us is unknown, like a shadow from the sun, and it puts oppression on us, and it throws off the “eggs”, I’m my own! The signal however. And it doesn’t see Her amer frigate in any way, but we’re under the wing. And we have the telegraphs on top. Stand gavriki! ! Do not rock the boat! And I took off, like a puppy running for sugar. And we still don’t know what was above us. We wanted the men to put a bottle, all of us were saved from death, it’s not a fig. We are so secret, but what kind of boat It’s a flying Dutchman. And the corps isn’t defined at all. But our footprint is seventy miles yach from Florida went unnoticed. They left for the carrier, got in and went home - to the north. So sho no need to panic. There is such a reason why Americans armpits turn gray under vodka. wink and you are ash, ash, for that he is ash. So that the "Dutchman" went unnoticed across the seas .... when their platform was burning? In the last century? laughing pretend we have right now, huh? If we then fooled like fry. And the technology in us is by no means worsened
  2. The comment was deleted.
    1. +7
      8 August 2017 08: 48
      hi Welcome Rudolph!
      Quote from rudolf
      Nefig we had to arrange an underwater revolution with Yasen

      lol Well, do you, my friend, talk about the aspirations and indecent desires of Comrade Ustinov, gentlemen of the admirals, officials of the defense industry complex and the glorious workers of the SPBMB Malakhit?
      Quote from rudolf
      it was necessary to develop evolutionally Pike.

      Eh, sub-swimming, as I agree with you !!! Not only that, as a supervisor, I understand with my brains why and for whom our surface monsters were built, but I just can’t understand in my heart where the great “comrades” put their minds into?
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. avt
          +5
          8 August 2017 11: 01
          Quote from rudolf
          Not ICAPL, but a five-minute strategist with full BC!

          bully ,, You said. "The trick actually looks exactly in this - to make a station wagon, which ,, with a flick of the wrist, the trousers turn into elegant shorts." Or rather, vice versa - you stick a promising long-range, preferably cruise missile and ... wo a la - the INF Treaty goes through the woods, like with Buyan-Karakurt. ”But if the latter do not stand as battleships and even like cruisers, since there are none it doesn’t make the planes to chase submarines in the stratosphere and satellites in low orbit to shoot down. So with 885 such a number stupidly failed request Hence the cost - a station wagon can always cost an order of magnitude more expensive, well, the implementation terms, respectively, are directly dependent on the complexity of the design.
          Quote from rudolf
          The degree of novelty rolls over.

          In short, everything is like in a fairy tale about the priest and his worker Balda.
          1. +5
            8 August 2017 11: 44
            Quote: avt
            a station wagon can always cost an order of magnitude more expensive, well, the implementation terms, respectively, are directly dependent on the complexity of the design.

            Hence the thoughts are very unkind about Husky, the project of which is going to be made even more universal ... that is, given our terms of construction, elimination of problems and jambs, we will not see very soon. And again in a small series, in contrast to the pragmatists of mattresses, who improve their Virgin, bringing it to perfection.
            And here I completely agree with Rudolph that we need to continue work on SHCHUKA-B, modernizing it and, in good terms, resuming its production.
            But I think that even this will not be enough ... I am convinced that the construction of Lear should be reanimated.
            1. avt
              +4
              8 August 2017 11: 59
              Quote: NEXUS
              And here I completely agree with Rudolph that we need to continue work on SHCHUKA-B, modernizing it and, in good terms, resuming its production.

              recourse request I don’t know, or rather I’m not ready to check out with argument. But that's why I believe that this would be a worse step than increasing the series of 885s. It is quite possible to do with the modernization of the available ones, which actually happens, but does not put it in a series. And you need to work exclusively on promising ones, taking into account new physical principles. And especially not
              Quote: NEXUS
              The construction of Lear must be reanimated.

              This is a chip played. Take into account the operational experience of Lear, in the R&D of NEW projects.
              1. +3
                8 August 2017 12: 14
                Quote: avt
                This is a chip played. Take into account the operational experience of Lear, in the R&D of NEW projects.

                I do not agree with you. Progress and technology for so much time did not stand still. What do we have in the dry residue? One and a half Ashen, 15 Shchuk and as many Shchuk-B, half of them are waiting for modernization, a couple of Barakud and that’s all ... It takes time to finish the Ashen, and as I understand it, a lot, and therefore the deadlines will move more than once.
                Well, what’s the adversary? The adversary every 4-5 years surrenders to the fleet the next Virgin, systematically improving the project. And now they are going to surrender not two submarines per year to the fleet, but two. But there is still a NATO submarine fleet. And according to the results of calculations, the huge ass size with our MAPL that we have today is looming.
                I am not talking about the resumption of Lyra’s production because of whims or obstinacy. We need Hunters who would be able to take on part of the functions of multi-purpose workers. At the same time, high-speed and low displacement of 2-2,5 thousand tons, which was Lira. After reworking and finalizing this project, we can get a wonderful Hunter, who, while giving birth to Ash and Husky, will partially bridge this gap of lag. At the same time, I am sure that the Shchuk-B series should be extended in the same way.
                The Varshavyanki are not capable of what Lyra or Pike were capable of ... and over the years, we have created a perceptible gap in the question of both the multi-purpose and the Hunters.
                1. +5
                  8 August 2017 13: 10
                  Quote: NEXUS
                  I am not talking about the resumption of Lyra’s production because of whims or obstinacy. We need Hunters who would be able to take on part of the functions of multi-purpose workers. At that, thousands of tons of high-speed and low displacement in the 2-2,5, which was Lira.

                  hi Приветствуем!
                  I’ve never been a submariner, but I think that a hunter will rarely roll over “machine telegraph pens” to “Most Complete”, as he will immediately give himself away! My opinion was that it was necessary to modernize Pike-B, a very decent project!
                  1. +3
                    8 August 2017 13: 16
                    Quote: Serg65
                    to "The Most Complete", as it will immediately give itself away!

                    So Lira’s regular speed was 41 knots in those days ... and the turnaround time is still unsurpassed. Each project has its pros and cons. But taking into account improvements and new technologies, including developments on SU, you can get a wonderful Hunter at the exit, who will be able to deliver a lot of haemorrhoids to the adversary.
                    1. +4
                      8 August 2017 13: 29
                      Quote: NEXUS
                      So Lira’s regular speed was at that time an 41 knot ... and the turnaround time is still unsurpassed. Each project has its pros and cons.

                      Titanium Case - Expensive
                      The filperpers reactor is expensive and dangerous (although you may be right, you could have modified it, but you didn’t do something)
                      High speed - why?
                      The essence of the hunter ...
                      Quietly took a position in the basing area, waited for the adversary to go on combat duty and pressed the "little hens"! Dived deeper, sewed for the victory with chocolate and changed position (Rudolph, if I'm wrong, correct me!). Scheme two.
                      Under cover of pr.636.3, in the place with the SSBN, he went to the database, took a position and cover the "brothers in the shop."
                      Speed ​​is unimportant here, stealth is more important.
                      1. +3
                        8 August 2017 13: 32
                        Quote: Serg65
                        Titanium Case - Expensive

                        And who is talking about titanium? This is a steel version.
                        Quote: Serg65
                        The filperpers reactor is expensive and dangerous (although you may be right, you could have modified it, but you didn’t do something)

                        It seems like the work on it was carried out and now there is a working SU ... I will not argue.
                        Quote: Serg65
                        The essence of the hunter ...
                        Quietly took a position in the basing area, waited for the adversary to go on combat duty and pressed the "little hens"! Dived deeper, sewed for the victory with chocolate and changed position (Rudolph, if I'm wrong, correct me!). Scheme two.

                        No, you described the essence of the ambush Varshavyanka. And the essence of Lyra is to catch up, attack and quickly leave.
                        Quote: Serg65
                        Speed ​​is unimportant here, stealth is more important.

                        This is just the trump card. hi
                    2. 0
                      28 December 2017 18: 03
                      Quote: clansman
                      Eat less, be treated, study .., the elimination of civil pensions with child benefits will help for the sake of self-affirmation closer to the amount of military iron, if not NATO, then the United States


                      And also live less and work more in 4 shifts 6 days a week))) and still not enough, you have to tighten your belts ... grandfathers fathers ... children and grandchildren. And then, anyway, a loss to NATO forces and the collapse of the country.
                  2. The comment was deleted.
                    1. +2
                      8 August 2017 14: 46
                      Quote from rudolf
                      Unfortunately, the 705 project in its pure form is already impossible to revive. If only in return for Ash and Husky combined.

                      Well, you understand that this is time and money? Nobody will do it!
                      Quote from rudolf
                      But many of the ideas embedded in Lyra will still find themselves. The ship was simply ahead of its time.

                      It may well be so who knows what will be there tomorrow wink We have + 40, and after 3 of the day they promise snow in the mountains and cooling, so maybe Lira-2 will ever leave the slipway drinks
                2. +1
                  9 August 2017 04: 12
                  But where to get the money for the very expensive Lira? They even by Soviet standards cost a lot of money (Goldfish).
                3. +2
                  10 August 2017 12: 40
                  Eat less, be treated, study .., the elimination of civil pensions with child benefits will help for the sake of self-affirmation closer to the amount of military iron, if not NATO, then the United States
              2. +3
                8 August 2017 12: 57
                hi Greetings to the Great Shark!
                Quote: avt
                But that's why I believe that this would be a worse step than increasing the 885's series.

                It may well be that if you lower Yars's sebes ... I think so!
            2. 0
              7 November 2017 10: 28
              And why exactly the 705th project? He was very dear. Why not improve the 945B project?
              1. +2
                7 November 2017 15: 17
                Quote: NordOst16
                And why exactly the 705th project?

                Because Lira is the most successful sub-hunter.
                Quote: NordOst16
                He was very dear.

                Because of the titanium case and YaSU.
                Quote: NordOst16
                Why not improve the 945B project?

                945, the project became the basis for the emergence of project 971. At the same time, I am talking about nuclear submarines with a displacement of up to 3000 tons, and not at 9600 tons (underwater), like Barakuda. 945B Mars was very successful, however.
                1. 0
                  7 November 2017 17: 01
                  Well, the lyre had an LMT reactor - and we haven’t sawed lead-bismuth reactors for a long time (everything was all on lyres and stalled) and I don’t think that production can be quickly restored, and the infrastructure for them can be built. It is necessary to make a steel case, to process the entire filling. I think it’s faster to develop a new Apple than to raise this project from the grave. It is better then to improve 945 or 971 a bit.
                  By the way, why instead of 885 (well, if there are enough analogues of 945/971 projects), 955 can not be done more, but at the same time they can be converted into cruise missiles (like the Americans). They seem quiet, they would chase smaller ones (all kinds of pikes), and Northwind with cr could guard aug or keep naval bases at gunpoint. I think about 80pcs of PCR would fit into it. And since 955 is cheaper than the 855th, then there would be savings.
        2. +4
          8 August 2017 11: 31
          Quote from rudolf
          Why are they so wise with this Ashen, I do not understand

          Well, I don’t know, in my opinion everything is completely clear!
          In the middle of the 70’s, “Pears”, 671 RTMs were commissioned at the USSR Navy, “Anteys” were being built, the design of your project began, i.e. a bunch of projects with one task! laughing Agree, God himself ordered to put smart thought into someone's “smart head”. about the creation of the 4 generation wagon! Those. the fleet still did not really know what the 3 generation is, and the conversation about 4 has already begun! Well, spinning, “Malachite”, “Ruby”, “Lapis Lazuli” - who will surpass whom? Who will catch the jackpot? Indeed, at that time the surface carousel had the same merry-go-round! We need "Atlanta", "Buzzards" and "Frigates" as air, and the slipways are crammed with "Gyrfalcons" and "Eagles"!
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. +4
              8 August 2017 14: 09
              Quote from rudolf
              It was necessary to go evolutionarily, and not to arrange technical revolutions.

              Hats off and totally agree!
        3. 0
          6 November 2017 19: 00
          And what is wrong with these Rubinovites? By the way, like, the Central Design Bureau of Lapis Lazuli Apple designed or are they not doing this now?
    2. +3
      8 August 2017 11: 37
      Quote from rudolf
      Nefig we had to arrange an underwater revolution with Yasen, it was necessary to develop evolutionally Pike.

      Rudolph, welcome! hi
      And what prevents all this from being done at the same time, in the manner of the development of the T-90 and the creation of Almaty? Pikes are wonderful MAPLs, and I already said that it would be very right to build at least 15 more of these submarines in a modernization version. At the same time, the price of such Pike is much lower than that of Ashen, and with an increase in the series, it will only be less.
      MAPL Husky, I think, is the very answer to all the mistakes and shortcomings that are in the 885 project. But when will we see the first Husky in the fleet?
      And, friend, forgive me, but I continue to assert that we need to restore Lear's production, and in a good series, so that they take on part of the functions and tasks of our multi-purpose workers. I am convinced of this.
      At the same time, I observe that in our underwater shipbuilding the horse did not roll, therefore we give birth to each submarine priest forward for 10 years. Specialists are sorely lacking and this is a fact today. Sevmash last year only welders 400 souls hired. Well, I'm sorry, what ass with the construction of our submarines, that such numbers of shortages pop up?
      It's all depressing ... It was smooth on paper, but forgot about the ravines.
      1. +6
        8 August 2017 12: 35
        Quote: NEXUS
        I continue to claim that we need to restore Lear's production

        Well, you and the dreamer ... excuse me. If we start from sci-fi ideas, all that is needed today is to tear out allies and the government and give nose and nose blood in the 20 submarine series 885 in the next 15 years. This is fantastic light. But already 705 ... it’s absolutely forgive Aguzarov-Martian scope ...
        1. +2
          8 August 2017 13: 04
          Quote: Alex_59
          then all that is needed today is to tear out allies and the government and nosebleed to give a series of 20 nuclear submarines, etc. 885 in the next 15 years.

          And these are not my fantasies, dear, this is a necessity that is dictated by our adversary. And here, even in the pose of that cow from “Fishing in Russian”, they’ll burst, but we will have to catch up and run.
          Quote: Alex_59
          But already the 705s ... it’s absolutely forgive Aguzarov-Martian scope ...

          Do you have any other ideas? Take a look at the ratio of the MAPL of the NATO fleet and ours ... it is clear that the resumption of Lear production is not a simple matter, but they can be built faster than Pike and Ash. And today we have the biggest problem is TIME, which we so mediocrely woke up ... if the adversary was building up power and improving.
          1. +2
            8 August 2017 13: 17
            Quote: NEXUS
            And these are not my fantasies, dear, this is a necessity that is dictated by our adversary.

            Excuse me for God's sake, but I also can not understand your desire to produce Lear?
            Do not find it hard to explain?
            1. +2
              8 August 2017 13: 29
              Quote: Serg65
              Do not find it hard to explain?

              I nevertheless explained above ... we have a catastrophic shortage of multi-purpose workers. One Ash-tree and 15 Shchuk and Shchuk-B each respectively. Half of the Shchuk of various modifications are now waiting for either repair or modernization. And as a result, the fleet of multi-purpose workers is not just weak, but hopelessly backward, due to its small size and the timing of the construction of Ash trees.
              And in this regard, I recall a dispute with one citizen over the SU-35s ... when he argued that all efforts should be devoted to the PAK FA project ... and I argued that it was necessary to saturate the SU-35 fighter fleet and SU-30, as the adversary dictates this need. The lag in fighter planes is not much better with us than in the issue of multipurpose submarines. And in the end, I was right ... the SU-35 fighters saturate our VKS and the pace is growing.
              But a multipurpose submarine is not a fighter and it is not possible to plan them quickly. And the adversary already has a margin of 20 years on this issue. And what is the conclusion?
              Two ways ... the first, to continue the Shchuk-B series and the second, to revive the production of lyres (small submarines of the ocean zone with some signs of multi-purpose).
              A Lira with a displacement of 2-2,5 thousand tons is built much faster than Pike or Ash. And it can be launched in a good series, and not in a stripped-down version in 7 buildings.
              The logic is simple and obvious to me.
              1. 0
                8 August 2017 13: 53
                Quote: NEXUS
                Lira displacement in 2-2,5 thousands of tons is built much faster than Pike or Ash.

                Yeah. Especially the cases from No.105 to No.107. Very fast. Right "much faster." And this is in those days when something could be cut off for failure to meet deadlines.
                1. +2
                  8 August 2017 14: 01
                  Quote: Alex_59
                  Yeah. Especially the cases from No.105 to No.107. Very fast. Right "much faster." And this is in those days when something could be cut off for failure to meet deadlines.

                  If you are confused by the names of the Lira project, then name it as you like. I’m not talking about dumb copying of the 705 project, but about the new Lira-based Hunter. And I am convinced that we will come to this, because we are building multi-purpose vehicles slowly. And the cat wept in the ocean zone ships. At the same time, the adversary does not sit there and builds ships all quieter and more difficult to detect. In the meantime, we are strengthening the internal seas and the coastal zone with the Warsawyanka and no more.
          2. +4
            8 August 2017 13: 19
            Quote: NEXUS
            Do you have any other ideas?

            There is. Do not engage in nonsense, reanimating projects of the past in which cooperation has collapsed and technology has been destroyed, but to do what is already there. Raise KOH to the level of the USA, improve coastal infrastructure, issue a series of 10 Ave. 885 to the fleet. These are fantasies, but they are one hundred times closer to reality than the resumption of production of 971 and especially 705.
            Quote: NEXUS
            Lear's resumption of production is not an easy thing

            Of course not easy. To do this, it is necessary to revive the USSR, Kosygin, Ustinov, Gorshkov, etc.
            Quote: NEXUS
            And these are not my fantasies.

            These are your fantasies, because the 705 project will never be revived in reality. This is a fact. You can chat anything, but it will not.
            1. +2
              8 August 2017 13: 43
              Quote: Alex_59
              issue a series of 10 pr. 885 per fleet.

              And who is a dreamer, dear? We each Ash-tree essentially leaves the head. Nonsense do not be foolish. There would be 7 boards to scatter, (and not the fact that we’ll do it) and you are talking about 20.

              Quote: Alex_59
              These are fantasies, but they are one hundred times closer to reality than the resumption of production of 971 and especially 705.

              Yeah ... what planet did you fly from, dear? Take a look at how much Kazan is being built. It was laid in the year 9. That is already 8 years old! And also tests, refinements, etc., that is, at least another 2 years ... and that is 10 years. And the rest, do you think they will take it faster?
              And in summary, my proposal looks much more realistic than your fantasies.
              Quote: Alex_59
              Of course not easy. To do this, it is necessary to revive the USSR, Kosygin, Ustinov, Gorshkov, etc.

              That is, the documentation is lost, the plaster is removed, the client leaves ...?
              Quote: Alex_59
              These are your fantasies, because the 705 project will never be revived in reality. This is a fact. You can chat anything, but it will not.

              Wait and see. hi
              1. +3
                8 August 2017 13: 47
                Quote: NEXUS
                That is, the documentation is lost

                I am sure that you have not the slightest relation to production (with all due respect), because not one engineer would have thought of such a thing. I don’t even want to explain why, too long.
                Quote: NEXUS
                And in summary, my proposal looks much more realistic than your fantasies.

                Alright, alright. Good luck in resuscitation ave. 705. I have no desire to argue.
              2. +5
                8 August 2017 14: 30
                Quote: NEXUS
                And in summary, my proposal looks much more realistic than your fantasies.

                Oh, I do not agree with you, my dear man! In this situation, it is already necessary to throw all the resources at Yaseni and not change horses at the crossing! Otherwise, everything will be delayed for an indefinite period! God forbid 885-e will bring to mind and subsequent bodies will give birth faster recourse
                1. +2
                  8 August 2017 15: 08
                  Quote: Serg65
                  Oh, I do not agree with you, my dear man! In this situation, it is already necessary to throw all the resources at Yaseni and not change horses at the crossing! Otherwise, everything will be delayed for an indefinite period! God forbid 885-e will bring to mind and subsequent bodies will give birth faster

                  While we will be cutting ash-trees, mattresses with another ten virgins will be collected. Moreover, they already have a Virginia project in development.
                  Here we disagree on the problem. Based on Lira's experience and use experience, and taking into account new technologies, we need now to start developing a new Hunter, which could be built quickly and much in the future. Unfortunately, it’s already clear by the pace of construction of Ash-trees that we can’t keep up with mattresses, and even more so with the entire NATO submarine fleet. Although there is no such task ... but there must be a certain balance. stood.
                  I repeat, no one talks about stupid resuscitation and copying of project 705 ... But we need a new Hunter up to 2,5 thousand tons with nuclear weapons, which could close this gap in the lag in the issue of multipurpose, and indeed the submarine of the ocean zone.
            2. +3
              8 August 2017 14: 26
              hi Hello Alexey
              Quote: Alex_59
              Raise KOH to US improve coastal infrastructure,

              Oh Alex, in order to upgrade KOH to at least 0,35, it is necessary to reanimate ship repair, debug basic maintenance, reduce time, but improve the quality of inter-pass repairs, make staff work and even a lot of things - this is really a fantasy what And most importantly, you need an adequate Commander-in-Chief!
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. +2
                8 August 2017 14: 54
                Quote: Serg65
                Oh Alex, in order to upgrade KOH to at least 0,35, it is necessary to reanimate ship repair, debug basic maintenance, reduce time, but improve the quality of inter-pass repairs, make staff work and even a lot of things - this is really a fantasy

                I understand that from the realm of fantasy, but if the Supreme takes us and gives us money and says “spend what you want,” in my understanding, the worst thing is to swallow all the money in 20 boats of the 885 avenue, and the best thing is to leave only 7 boats , and the remaining invest in infrastructure, ship repair, etc. As a result, according to the second option, in my understanding, the 7 of the existing boats will pose a greater threat to the enemy than the 20 in the first option. Here I am for what.
                If our scope is not the same, there is still a choice. 7 boats and 0 infrastructure - or 5 boats and a bit of infrastructure? The second is better again (in my understanding). Especially when it comes to SF and Pacific Fleet. Our native Black Sea Fleet still exists in good conditions, because the climate, the sun, a beautiful big city, etc. And Murmansk bare stones with crumbling stucco houses? I don’t want to live there, but shoot myself right away. What kind of service is this?
      2. The comment was deleted.
        1. +6
          8 August 2017 14: 52
          Quote from rudolf
          In no case could the construction of the 971 project be stopped, this is a gross mistake in military planning

          I immediately remembered my "Striking", dragged to the needles and did not ask the last name! Come on Rudolph, for those who are already with us drinks I’m getting drunk today!
        2. +3
          8 August 2017 15: 19
          Quote from rudolf
          Hello Andrey! You have a very good example. It didn’t work at the same time. Even with the tanks did not work. Armata became a nail in the lid of the T-90 coffin. Instead, we drive the modernization of the T-72. Just right to envy the Indians.

          Greetings, friend! hi
          Not everything is so deplorable with the T-90, as you say. We have 72 under 15 thousand in general and what to do with them? And we’re buying the 90s on the sly, though not fast. But finally we started talking about the purchase of Terminators, which cannot but rejoice. So you're in vain. Nobody bury the 90th. He has a wonderful internal potential for our army, and good export backlog. So you got a little excited here.
          Quote from rudolf
          In no case could the construction of the 971th project be stopped, this is a gross mistake

          I strongly agree with you with two hands.
          Quote from rudolf
          The resumption of construction work Pike now even I have a certain skepticism.

          I have already said that we essentially have no other choice. We have been building an unforgivable ash tree for a long time and this fact, could bury our underwater shipbuilding. I am silent about Husky, maybe for me, now, this is how to talk about a spaceship by the 20th year. There are two ways I can see - Resuming the construction of Pike (taking into account developments) and developing a new Hunter (let's call it Lira 2.0). I understand that this will damage the Ash-trees ... but, tell me, the big difference is that Ash will go to the fleet again 10 years or 12? I think the difference is not big, given our long-term construction.
          Quote from rudolf
          There are simply no other options for how to drive the Ashes series further. Moreover, the series must be increased at least twice.

          There will be no extension to the Ashes series, friend. This project is a grave digger for our underwater shipbuilding, in fact, because each individual Ash tree is a long-term construction.
    3. +2
      8 August 2017 12: 56
      Quote from rudolf
      In short, the entire American fleet is tortured to look for our Ash. A needle in a haystack will be easier.

      Maybe, of course, it will torment you, but with their detection systems it will do it faster than ours would do when setting similar tasks. Here we still have room to grow. By the way, the article does not say a word about the range of detection of objects by either Virginia or Ashen, because without this it is not entirely correct to compare weapons. Who first discovered the one (with greater probability) and won the battle.
      1. +2
        8 August 2017 14: 32
        Quote: DenZ
        Who first discovered the one (with greater probability) and won the battle.

        They will seek each other's bases of the cosmic component for years on the expanses of the ocean!
    4. +3
      8 August 2017 23: 37
      Quote from rudolf
      Yes, Virginia does not create any problems for Ashen.

      Hello Volchara! hi
      1. Ash was created as a response to Sivulf.
      2. The wolf was extremely expensive. He was replaced by the less expensive Virginia.
      3. The answer to the Virgin was the statement by our drivers about the design of the Husky. Also less expensive than Ash, but more advanced than him. This will be our answer to Virginia. What will it be - can only guess and hope for the best.
      IMHO.
      1. jjj
        0
        9 August 2017 18: 53
        I understand with my own little mind that 885 is instead of 949. With this approach, a significant saving in displacement with comparable impact indicators. The niche of pr. 671 / 971 is partly, as it turns out, replaced by pr. 636. But the segment between them remains blank. And even on the way there is nothing
      2. +2
        10 August 2017 14: 22
        Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
        2. The wolf was extremely expensive. He was replaced by the less expensive Virginia.

        And our Ash kapets what a cheap ... one and a half lard Baku ...
        Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
        The answer to the Virgin was the statement by our drivers about the design of the Husky

        Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
        The answer to the Virgin was the statement by our drivers about the design of the Husky

        Not really ... Husky is the answer to their new MAPL project to replace Virgin SSBN SSBN (X)

        Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
        What will it be - can only guess and hope for the best.

        This is all a very distant future ...
        1. +2
          10 August 2017 15: 51
          Quote: NEXUS
          And our Ash kapets what a cheap ... one and a half lard Baku ...

          Not cheap, for sure! But still not 4,3 lard greens (including design, of course).
          1. +2
            10 August 2017 16: 16
            Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
            Not cheap, for sure! But still not 4,3 lard greens (including design, of course).

            Well, the first Virgin went for 2,7 lard ... now even cheaper.
  3. 0
    8 August 2017 08: 27
    Russian submarines pr. 885 are 2,5 times ahead of all known western multi-purpose submarines; after gaining the initial combat readiness of the Zircon, this figure will increase to 7 times.


    I wonder how this can be calculated? Or again, round nozzles are bad? laughing
  4. +1
    8 August 2017 08: 35
    Well, what can I say ... there are technological challenges ... we need to look for ways to improve the Ashes and their equipment ... the engineering idea does not stand still ... and the potential for modernization of Ashenes is good
  5. +2
    8 August 2017 09: 45
    32 units of missile strike weapons, in particular: 2,5M high-maneuverable 3M55 (P-800) Onyx anti-ship missiles, 3M14T Caliber-PL strategic missile cruise missiles with a range of up to 2000-2600 km, promising TFR X-101 / 102, anti-ship missiles 3M54E1 "Caliber-PL" with a 3-fly swing (range 220 km), promising hypersonic anti-ship missiles 3M22 "Zircon" with a range of 550.

    I wonder why the author decided that the air-base cr-x-101 (102) is included in the nomenclature of weapons, and he knows the range of Zircon. Unclear...
    1. +2
      8 August 2017 11: 02
      Author: Evgeny Damantsev
  6. +4
    8 August 2017 12: 03
    Problems for the Ashen submarines are not created by Virginia, but by the pace of construction of the Ashen submarines themselves.
  7. 0
    8 August 2017 12: 57
    in short it's time to double up
  8. +1
    8 August 2017 13: 23
    Quote from rudolf
    Nefig we had to arrange an underwater revolution with Yasen, it was necessary to develop evolutionally Pike.


    This is where it would be interesting to read the arguments of the Ashen developers ...
  9. +6
    8 August 2017 13: 43
    NEXUS,
    Quote: NEXUS
    No, you described the essence of the ambush Varshavyanka. And the essence of Lyra is to catch up, attack and quickly leave.

    laughing How do you imagine that?
    Virginia is drinking himself, he is not touching anyone, the watch speaker with a bottle of cola looks at the porn magazine and suddenly there is such a howl in the headphones !!!! Cap, Russian Lyra at 48 degrees .... range? Xnumx cables sir! Stop car, boatswain depth 400, silence in the compartments !!! Right now let's get to where the Russians are rushing?
    On the 41 node, Lyra is unlikely to see or hear something!
    Best regards hi
    1. jjj
      0
      9 August 2017 18: 55
      Quote: Serg65
      On the 41 node, Lyra is unlikely to see or hear something!

      And on all boats at these speeds in your own compartments rumble be healthy
    2. +2
      10 August 2017 14: 31
      Quote: Serg65
      How do you imagine that?
      Virginia is drinking himself, he is not touching anyone, the watch speaker with a bottle of cola looks at the porn magazine and suddenly there is such a howl in the headphones !!!! Cap, Russian Lyra at 48 degrees .... range? Xnumx cables sir! Stop car, boatswain depth 400, silence in the compartments !!! Right now let's get to where the Russians are rushing?

      Very colorful ... straight to Hollywood ... but why did you get the idea that Lira 2.0 will be worn over the seas and oceans like crazy? What is the standard speed of AUG movement? If I’m not mistaken, 25-30 knots and then this speed is not constant ... at the same time, no one says that Lyra is not able to work as an ambush submarine in the manner of Varshavyanka.
      And at speeds of more than 20 knots, all are on an equal footing ...

      Quote: Serg65
      On the 41 node, Lyra is unlikely to see or hear something!

      As well as the same Virgin at 30 knots, in the AUG escort ...
      Sincerely. hi
  10. +1
    8 August 2017 14: 32
    I’m interested in another question: couldn’t the boat that they built for more than 20 years immediately bring to the “mind”, why the boat’s design doesn’t have a water jet, even the Chinese do it with an “advanced” water cannon, and what detection systems are advanced, it’s enviable. As a result, as always, a lot of weapons on a cart, such is our design school. Well, of course, you need to modernize at maximum pr.945 pr.945A and pr.971 all boats then our fleet will go beyond the territorial waters.
    1. +1
      8 August 2017 14: 57
      Quote: Sailor
      couldn’t immediately bring to the “mind” why there is no water cannon in the boat’s design,

      Boreas do with a water cannon
      1. +2
        9 August 2017 15: 11
        So we are talking about MAPL.
        1. 0
          15 August 2017 23: 56
          Quote: Sailor
          So we are talking about MAPL.

          So they decided to see the designer better, I wrote a post to show that water-jet engines were developed in Russia.
  11. +3
    8 August 2017 15: 54
    The sadness of the author is not entirely clear. And what does he want in the end.
    Firstly, Russia does not have as much money for a huge submarine fleet as in the United States. And this is a big enough restriction in order to rejoice at what is already being built.
    Secondly, the Premier League is just one of the arguments, there are others. and so far they are enough not to seem to someone a poodle in a muzzle.
    Thirdly, we have a limited number of shipyards and production capacities are not dimensionless. you can build a dozen more slipways, but then again look at the first point.
    Fourth, it has already been said more than once or twice - money is being invested in the development of the next generation nuclear submarines, and
    The 885th project is considered as though new, but intermediate for maintaining the underwater component of the fleet in the very near future, so that no one tries to stick a slobbery finger into our outlet.
    1. +2
      8 August 2017 18: 56
      Quote: Berkut24
      Firstly, Russia does not have as much money for a huge submarine fleet as in the United States.

      There is money to buy for 100 billion US securities, but not for the fleet.
      Quote: Berkut24
      Thirdly, we have a limited number of shipyards and production capacities are not dimensionless. you can build a dozen more slipways, but then again look at the first point.

      How steel was tempered in the USSR, one of the examples according to pr.667
      .http: //www.deepstorm.ru/DeepStorm.files/45-92/nb
      rs / 667A / list.htm
      1. +3
        8 August 2017 21: 00
        There is money to buy for 100 billion US securities, but not for the fleet.

        I’m already tired of explaining to economic amateurs that the Central Bank does not obey the Government and the Central Bank’s money has nothing to do with the budget. The tasks of our Central Bank (and not only ours) do not include financing the economy. The task of the Central Bank is to maintain and issue the national currency and maintain reserves. The Central Bank does this in all available ways.
        The Government has its own money, it earns it and "walks on it" regardless of the Central Bank. He takes money in debt and repays on his own.
        How steel was tempered in the USSR, one of the examples according to pr.667

        The shipyard is a commercial enterprise that buys and builds production facilities based on incoming orders for the construction of ships. Each project requires not only the appropriate size of the shipyard, but also the equipment appropriate for each project. It is possible to build 8 production sites for 8 ships and make 8 sets of equipment. And recruit 8 teams of shipbuilders, having trained them 8 times in turn. Yes, after that, in a couple of years, you can build 8 sides. Then, until the next order, when the Government has the money again, it will be necessary to conserve all this with huge losses, dissolve the lion's share of the trained personnel, and either turn the equipment into scrap metal or occupy a workshop for another for long-term storage.
        First of all, stability in loading is important for the enterprise. The first board is a product of trial and error, where one of the main ways to train personnel is the spear method. The second board is already easier, with fewer alterations. From the third or fourth side, work is already underway. Do you propose to arrange these experiments and errors in parallel 8 times?
        1. +1
          8 August 2017 23: 01
          Quote: Berkut24
          tired of explaining to economic amateurs. The task of the Central Bank is to maintain and issue the national currency and maintain reserves. The Central Bank does this in all available ways.

          In your opinion, if you buy American securities for dollars, then you can issue and if not, then emission is impossible? Who determines the size of the reserve? Does Russia have no securities? Fed does not buy back US securities? Does the Fed not fund US banks?
          Explain to me the amateur.
          Quote: Berkut24
          First of all, stability in loading is important for the enterprise.

          It’s as if I was trying to say that in Russia there is a plant specializing in the production of nuclear submarines and in the distant 70 years when the production processes weren’t so automated for 8 years, 24 nuclear submarines with various upgrades were built, this is not counting the experiments with the Golden Fish and Lear. and somehow managed.
          1. +4
            9 August 2017 12: 22
            In your opinion, if you buy American securities for dollars, then you can issue and if not, then emission is impossible? Who determines the size of the reserve? Does Russia have no securities? Fed does not buy back US securities? Does the Fed not fund US banks?

            It's not about emissions per se. The Central Bank allocates its reserves in such a way as to preserve and increase them. What we have is that in the USA the Central Bank and the Fed do not finance the state directly and do not lend it. At least for the reason that there is no mechanism for collecting this debt from the government. The Central Bank lends to banks, then it is up to the state where to re-lend - in commercial banks, with the public or in foreign sources. As for the Fed redemption of US government securities, for them it is the same financial instrument as for our Central Bank. For them, this is just a security, not the debts of the state. They can buy, they can sell and get their interest. For the Central Bank, there are such concepts as reliability and profitability. And there is no concept of patriotism, because This is not a financial term. Because patriotism during the crisis does not support the stability of the country's financial system. There is no such tool.
            It’s as if I was trying to say that in Russia there is a plant specializing in the production of nuclear submarines and in the distant 70 years when the production processes weren’t so automated for 8 years, 24 nuclear submarines with various upgrades were built, this is not counting the experiments with the Golden Fish and Lear. and somehow managed.

            And I kind of tried to say that the shipyard is a commercial enterprise and does only what they pay for. And, as you rightly pointed out, in addition to new projects, the old stocks are being repaired and modernized on the remaining stocks with the money allocated by the Moscow Region. Yes, during the USSR they did not spare money and could order as many projects and boats as they wanted. And this approach ultimately led to the collapse of the country's financial system and the 91st year. Now the Government is trying to live within its means and this is good. In addition to the nuclear submarines, there are other projects for the development of the Armed Forces, and now, together, our defense is reliable enough so that no one will be tempted.
            1. 0
              11 August 2017 01: 05
              Quote: Berkut24
              It's not about emissions per se.

              I wrote a long answer to you and then something all disappeared.
              It is a pity.
              1. +1
                11 August 2017 11: 27
                Don't be upset. Although this ends the holivar, which does not relate to the topic of the article.
                1. 0
                  11 August 2017 14: 55
                  Quote: Berkut24
                  Don't be upset. Although this ends the holivar, which does not relate to the topic of the article.

                  I typed the text twice, when the second disappeared, I realized it was clearly not fate.
                  You kind of spelled it right
                  The people raised the question that there is no money, but the fact that the Central Bank is buying US paper and at the same time the government is building the Crimean Bridge suggests that there is money. Milking the Central Bank can through funds, reserve and nat. welfare, than they do from time to time.

                  They built the project in 70 series at the beginning of the 667s, each series went with modernization, as Virginia is being built in blocks, each block is also with modernization, so this is not a discovery for Russian shipbuilders.
                  I do not consider our correspondence as a holivar.
                  1. +2
                    11 August 2017 15: 22
                    and the Crimean bridge is needed, and pensions and medicine and venture capital injections into technology ... There is no free money, you cannot live only with one military-industrial complex.
                    And yes - the Government manages the funds, the Central Bank only helps to manage them. These funds do not belong to the Central Bank reserves, the money is in the managing systemically important commercial banks, in the same VTB, for example.
                    As for the funds themselves, we must admit that they fulfill their function of a protective pillow - for this they were created. There is a great global crisis ahead and it makes no sense to spend them on some nuclear submarines. It makes sense to compensate for the loss of social programs, otherwise it will explode not outside, but inside.
                    1. 0
                      15 August 2017 12: 22
                      Quote: Berkut24
                      so the Crimean bridge is needed,

                      It will be built by the year 20 anyway, but the bridge is being built and the country is somehow living. And the boats will build and the country will live
                      .
                      Quote: Berkut24
                      As for the funds themselves, we must admit that they fulfill their function of a protective pillow - for this they were created.

                      When Western banks credited Russia at a small percentage, it was normal, and now when Western lending has diminished, then the policy needs to be changed.
                      Quote: Berkut24
                      There is a great global crisis ahead and it makes no sense to spend them on some nuclear submarines.

                      What I’m talking about is necessary to develop domestic production and consumption, and without money it is impossible. And who knows, will the US buy their papers in a crisis
                      .
                      Quote: Berkut24
                      It makes sense to compensate for the loss of social programs, otherwise it will explode not outside, but inside.

                      You have built a plant and you have products and you pay a salary to an employee; you don’t buy an enterprise abroad and pay unemployment benefits.
                      For the money that Airbuses and Boeing spent, they could have a modern aviation industry and part of the world market.
                      1. +3
                        15 August 2017 13: 02
                        It will be built by the year 20 anyway, but the bridge is being built and the country is somehow living. And the boats will build and the country will live

                        I repeat - there is no money at once. Project financing is a matter of priority. One boat will add little to the total asset, and a bridge to an isolated key region will immediately solve a bunch of security problems.
                        When Western banks credited Russia at a small percentage, it was normal, and now when Western lending has diminished, then the policy needs to be changed.

                        Russia has always had a worthless investment rating, which she drew all sorts of American rating agencies. So for Russia, there has never been a "low interest." Plus, the West never allowed money to be allocated for military projects and production development.
                        What I’m talking about is necessary to develop domestic production and consumption, and without money it is impossible. And who knows, will the US buy their papers in a crisis

                        I’ll tell you a secret that there is money, the government now does not lack it, there are reserves inside the country. But there is a drawback in calculated projects, because many current entrepreneurs have a mentality of the 90s, and a significant part of the owners of enterprises are residents of foreign countries and they deeply care about the development of production in Russia. Economic development is a long process. All market participants must mature and realize the new reality.
                        About 10 years ago, it all started with the fact that the Central Bank lent dollars and euros to commercial banks so that they began to credit production. And the banks almost completely withdrew this money for the cordon. That is, a failure was detected in the first link of the circuit. The Central Bank has now drawn conclusions, but believe me, there are so many cockroaches in the next links that the scheme will not work. The government does not believe in entrepreneurs, because business itself gives reason for this. Therefore, the state mainly invests in state-owned enterprises. Naturally, they are not very profitable, but there you can somehow track the fate of financial injections and get at least some technology. The remaining market participants have not yet matured to a situation where it is better to invest in real production, rather than in your pocket in an offshore.
                        You have built a plant and you have products and you pay a salary to an employee; you don’t buy an enterprise abroad and pay unemployment benefits.
                        For the money that Airbuses and Boeing spent, they could have a modern aviation industry and part of the world market.

                        Here you have too much naivety. In life, everything is more complicated. For the same aviation I will say this - everything is determined by the market. And the market is mainly concentrated in the European and American regions. Those. where we simply will not be allowed to sell our aircraft in serious quantities. And China will not. We can firmly believe in the laws of the WTO, but recent events show that those who created this WTO themselves are wiped with these rules to protect their producers. And the fact that the West does not give us money through sanctions now is a clear desire not to make competitors in a few years.
                        Everyone will always be against us, and this should be taken as the norm. And in these conditions, we have to look for our own way, to mature for some not very popular solutions and to defend a place in the world where the law is taiga.
          2. 0
            5 September 2017 18: 22
            The size of our reserves "determines" that:
            Firstly, we NEVER were sold to us NECESSARY (technologies, etc.) and Russia was ALWAYS under sanctions. As a result, we have a chronic PREFERENCE - we sell oil, etc. and we CAN’t buy from the world NECESSARY for this amount! Dollars remain in our hands ...
            Secondly: dollars in gold and foreign currency reserves are export earnings - RUBLES for this money are RECEIVED and EXPENDED domestically. DOLLARS INSIDE the country to spend IMPOSSIBLE (and illegal).
            Dollars, etc. are in gold and foreign currency reserves in proportion to the volume of TRADE and LIABILITIES of Russians (Russian companies, etc.).

            In general, this is a long conversation. It can be assumed that our Central Bank is wrong in something. But first you need to understand at least the basics and the meaning of what is happening and what in general is gold reserves.
  12. +1
    8 August 2017 16: 28
    If you face the truth, without bragging, it will become obvious that not even the largest and most advanced submarines of France and England can do a lot of trouble on the European continent, not to mention the Virginia in 14 pieces and our submarines! Enough for everyone ....
    1. jjj
      +1
      9 August 2017 18: 59
      Quote: SergF123
      not even the largest and most advanced submarines of France and England can do a lot of trouble on the European continent

      That's it: do yourself troubles
    2. 0
      16 August 2017 00: 16
      Quote: Berkut24
      Here you have too much naivety.

      Yes, it looks primitive but how else? No way, Russia has great potential and it is necessary to look for development paths. The national bank has a good bridle for businessmen, a license, this is how commercial banks with the national bank pay off if they withdraw money abroad, because they have to repay debts with interest, besides they were given loans at interest higher than European ones?
      Quote: Berkut24
      Those. where we simply will not be allowed to sell our aircraft in serious quantities.

      If there is a really competitive aircraft, they can’t do anything, the Chinese have no school with their aircraft, they don’t have a school, so they will sit still, even Antonov’s re-purchase is unlikely to help them.
      Quote: Berkut24
      One boat adds little to the total asset

      For the money that they went to the bridge, you can build a fleet rather than a boat, They’ll finish the bridge and build a fleet.
      Quote: Berkut24
      Everyone will always be against us, and this should be taken as the norm. And in these conditions, we have to look for our own way, to mature for some not very popular solutions and to defend a place in the world where the law is taiga.

      That's right.
  13. +2
    8 August 2017 16: 50
    Ahahaha, who will tell you how many of these Ashes we have! One pass on camera, three quietly and without noise. The Supreme has everything under the hood. Adversaries tremble, soon lose the Oceans .... There would be an order .... soldier
    1. ZVO
      +3
      9 August 2017 17: 09
      Quote: 40 years with varicocele
      Ahahaha, who will tell you how many of these Ashes we have! One pass on camera, three quietly and without noise. The Supreme has everything under the hood. Adversaries tremble, soon lose the Oceans .... There would be an order .... soldier


      I wonder who put you the pros?
      Your copatniks? Out of solidarity ...
      Or your orderlies? "Well, clean-parge!"
  14. 0
    8 August 2017 16: 57
    I don’t know, but a jet engine was planned on the Ash trees from the very beginning ... And where is it then? Some kind of nonsense is going on. Without a water cannon, Ash is not Ash. And we need a modernized Shkval-2 missile torpedo, which can now not only walk in a straight line, or rather fly, but also go around, so to speak, the local landscape.
    I won’t say anything about mapping the bottom, because I don’t think this is really a super innovation, but search and recognition of mines - yes, ah, it is necessary.
  15. 0
    8 August 2017 20: 09
    then can we contrast virginia? Only the accelerated development of electronics and automation. So that we can cheaply equip them with hundreds of small submarines with a crew of 3-5 people, but with full sonar capabilities. They should have a weak reactor, but for half a century without a reboot. Even I see how to do this. The mover is silent, maybe even a jet. The armament is modular, in a "fastened compartment", maintenance-free and controlled without people.
    .
    They must fight in large groups, covering each other and taking revenge one after another. In the event of a real collision, the Virginia will have to change one giant submarine with a hundred crew to a dwarf with three people.
    1. +2
      9 August 2017 00: 50
      a “dwarf” submarine at best will cost 20% cheaper than a “big” one, since they don’t sell reactors in stalls, new shipyards cost money, refurbishment of berths is not free, you still need to train staff .... and so on and so forth .
  16. +1
    8 August 2017 21: 00
    Quote: also a doctor
    then can we contrast virginia? Only the accelerated development of electronics and automation. .

    Yes, you can accelerate hundreds of times, but what's the point if there are no boats or they are built for 10 years?

    Quote: also a doctor
    So that we can cheaply equip them with hundreds of small submarines with a crew of 3-5 people, but with full sonar capabilities. They should have a weak reactor, but for half a century without a reboot. Even I see how to do this. The mover is silent, maybe even a jet. The armament is modular, in a "fastened compartment", maintenance-free and controlled without people. .

    Why such a huge crew? Already 3-5 people. Maybe one is enough?
    Full-fledged sonar capabilities, a small weak reactor, but with half a century of loading .... You exhibit incompatible TTTs in advance ... Like a crew of 3-5 people

    Quote: also a doctor
    They must fight in large groups, covering each other and taking revenge one after another. In the event of a real collision, the Virginia will have to change one giant submarine with a hundred crew to a dwarf with three people.

    It reminds me of something. Three or four years ago, certain "specialists" were popular on the network. proposing to replace combat aircraft with an “air locust”. Here is the same
    1. ZVO
      0
      9 August 2017 17: 13
      Quote: Old26

      It reminds me of something. Three or four years ago, certain "specialists" were popular on the network. proposing to replace combat aircraft with an “air locust”. Here is the same


      I always read you, with deep respect.
      But still about the "air locust" - they were right ...
      The trend of the last three years and the future 10-20 years of development of strike aircraft is precisely the swarms of self-controlled drones.
  17. +2
    9 August 2017 04: 51
    like the author has everything peremptorily, one gets the impression that he personally managed to command Yasenem, Virginia and Sea Wolf and therefore the whole text is written as some truth (worse, then noisier). Severodvinsk for reasons we all know is not an indicator but Kazan is in fact, it’s already a completely different boat, which, moreover, didn’t even go for tests, so writing articles in the form of a statement is, at least, not correct and early, although with one statement that there are catastrophically few boats, it is advisable to completely agree to build quickly.
  18. 0
    9 August 2017 21: 17
    Quote: ZVO
    I always read you, with deep respect.
    But still about the "air locust" - they were right ...
    The trend of the last three years and the future 10-20 years of development of strike aircraft is precisely the swarms of self-controlled drones.

    Yes if drones !!!!! These adherents of the air locust are supporters of ultralight aviation. For example, instead of an attack aircraft, it’s something like a hang glider or an ultralight aircraft like MAI AVIATIKA-890. Instead of bombing weapons, whether there aren’t grenades, instead of an air cannon - a heavy machine gun and all that
    1. ZVO
      0
      11 August 2017 10: 18
      Quote: Old26

      Yes if drones !!!!! These adherents of the air locust are supporters of ultralight aviation. For example, instead of an attack aircraft, it’s something like a hang glider or an ultralight aircraft like MAI AVIATIKA-890. Instead of bombing weapons, whether there aren’t grenades, instead of an air cannon - a heavy machine gun and all that


      Well, there’s nothing to say ...
      Pendant with electric motor, flywheel and sharpened sabers ...

      "Akhtung, Akhtung ... In the Air - Chapaev !!!"
  19. +1
    10 August 2017 02: 00
    The article is bullshit. Since the author cannot know the level of hydroacoustic means, project 885 - project 885M. Agitation from the USA is read and advertisements are issued for US taxpayers for truth. That in aviation, that in the navy ... With one purpose: to cheat on the current government, they say how bad everything is. It subconsciously goes like that. But in fact, just chatter the advertisements from the USA stupidly replicate ..

    Regarding the number of Virginia boats ... Russia does not need to chase the number. It is necessary to finish your SOSUS in the Arctic and around the perimeter. And drown them with anti-submarine gauges. Like kittens! Well, build your boats, of course. Husky is already planning to lay a new boat, plans for the early 2020s!
  20. 0
    10 August 2017 09: 33
    I don’t know who and what he thinks about all this, but vague doubts torment me ... First 6,5 Grendell, painfully similar to 7,62x39 and developed tens of years after the original. Now the drum launcher, criticized by everyone on the surface fleet of the USSR, but now being introduced by the "very best". Something is not right in the Danish kingdom.
  21. 0
    10 August 2017 15: 52
    Quote: clansman
    Eat less, be treated, study .., the elimination of civil pensions with child benefits will help for the sake of self-affirmation closer to the amount of military iron, if not NATO, then the United States


    If it's sarcasm, I'm your fan. If you seriously, start feeding your children less and yourself, too, more and more on bread. 100 years old, all the "belts are tightened." Generations already!
  22. 0
    10 August 2017 15: 55
    Quote: SPLV
    I don’t know who and what he thinks about all this, but vague doubts torment me ... First 6,5 Grendell, painfully similar to 7,62x39 and developed tens of years after the original. Now the drum launcher, criticized by everyone on the surface fleet of the USSR, but now being introduced by the "very best". Something is not right in the Danish kingdom.


    In the military business, patent protections do not work) More precisely, they work if the shores are the same. And with us, the shores are different. Yes, and the submarine barrel as you do not twist (albeit not the correct form). Any engineer would come to a "revolver." We are just earlier!)
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