The most ineffective weapons

373


Increased cast range aviation ammunition, coupled with the development of cruise missiles and methods of increasing the survival rate for combat aircraft, led to a sharp weakening of air defense systems.



Over the past 35 years, all the results of combat use of anti-aircraft missile systems have demonstrated the extremely low effectiveness of this type of weapon (on the verge of uselessness). In 100% of cases, the anti-aircraft gunners not only failed to protect the airspace, but could not even offer significant resistance to aviation. Despite the fact that we are talking about very complex and expensive systems with the promised high capabilities, where the cost of one antenna post is comparable to the cost of a fighter link.

And what is the result?

Bombers and air attack weapons (START) “rolled” around the positions of the air defense system with a hot-rolled ice rink, destroying, with impunity, objects protected, as it seemed, by the most powerful and modern air defense system.

In response, the representatives of the ground group and the command of the Air Defense Command routinely shrugged their shoulders, referring to the hindrances, hilly terrain and curvature of the earth. Radars do not see a target beyond the horizon - this is an unplanned mode. However, the problem is that this “mode” is calculated when planning strikes with the use of fourth-generation cruise missiles and multi-purpose fighters, which are capable of flying at ultra-low altitudes, attacking with high-precision weaponsfor which they do not even need to fly directly over the target. Under such conditions, triumphant reports about the “unique properties” of anti-aircraft systems, which, by their very presence, “induce fear” and “force the aggressors to abandon the attack,” are nothing but confirmed chatter.

The question is not even in “unique opportunities”, but in the justification of investing in the development of such expensive weapons guaranteed destroyed in the first minutes of the war.

Examples do not have to look long

Operation Medvedka-19, 1982 year

The number of 19 - the number of divisions of the air defense system in East Lebanon.

The 15 divisions of the Kvadrat mobile SAM systems, two divisions of the C-75 and C-125 stationary SAM systems, supplemented by 50 “Shilok”, 17 anti-aircraft artillery batteries and 47 branches of the “Strela-2” MANPADS. The highest density of anti-aircraft weapons ever encountered in military conflicts.

Despite the threefold mutual cover, the “invincible” air defense group ceased to exist on the first day of the war, without noticeable losses for enemy aircraft.

Operation “Canyon Eldorado”, 1986 year

The airspace above Tripoli was covered by French-made 60 airplanes of the Krotal air defense missile system, seven C-75 battalions (42 launchers), twelve C-125 complexes designed to combat low-flying targets (48 PU), three battalions of mobile Square-to-Air missiles ( these are also 48 PU), 16 mobile OSR “Osa”, apart from the Vega C-200 long-range anti-aircraft systems deployed in the country (24 launchers).

The strike group of 40 aircraft broke through to all the designated targets, having lost only one bomber from the fire of the anti-aircraft gunners (at least no other debris and evidence of large losses over the past 30 years were found).

Accuracy of nighttime shots was low. But surprisingly different. Armada of 40 aircraft flew all night in the sky over the capital, rousing residents with the explosions and roar of aircraft turbines. Brazenly and with impunity, as if the Libyans had no air defense at all.

Operation Desert Storm, 1991 Year

Briefly about the main thing - the aviation of the multinational forces bombed whom it wanted, when it wanted and how much it wanted, despite the presence of Iraq of the full range of Soviet-made air defense systems, supplemented by French radar and the Roland air defense system. In quantities that most of the most developed countries of the world could envy. According to the American command, the Iraqi air defense system was notable for its high organization and complex radar detection system covering the most important cities and objects in the country.

Naturally, the very first night it was all killed by zero.



In the days that followed, the Allied aviation worked in the sky for what it wanted. The remnants of the Iraqi air defense - just what they could. Could they a little. In just six weeks of “supersonic war”, during episodic incidents, 46 combat aircraft were shot down, most of which were not the victims of the formidable “Squares”, but large-caliber machine guns and MANPADS.

The USSR Ministry of Defense cited other numbers - 68 casualties (including those shot down in aerial combat).

In any case, this gives less than one thousandth of a percent of 144 000 MNF aviation sorties. Suspiciously weak result for the air defense of the whole country, which militarily was one of the five strongest states in the world.

Operation Allied Force, bombing of Serbia, 1999 year

The FRN was armed with 32 of the ZRK division (20 of the obsolete C-125 and 12 of quite modern “Cube-M”), as well as around 100 mobile systems “Strela-1” and “Strela-10”, MANPADS and the anti-aircraft artillery systems.

Of course, all this was not useful to the Serbs.

The only loud incident happened on the third day of the war: the invisible F-117 collapsed near Belgrade. The event greatly cheered the employees of the air defense forces around the world. However, it did not affect the course of the operation and the results of the conflict. The Yankees and their minions bombed everything they wanted.

According to the NATO command, their aircraft bombed 10 484.

Why did the Serbs manage to shoot down the "stealth", but failed to shoot down the rest of the "simpler" and numerous targets such as "F-15 & F-16"? The answer about stealth is as simple as the question: random success.

The second and last confirmed trophy of the Serbian air defense was the F-16 "40 unit", which departed from Aviano airbase. The tails of both cars are on display at the Belgrade Aviation Museum.

The most ineffective weapons


No further debris was found. Twisted rocket "Tomahawk" and a couple of light UAVs. That's the whole result for the thirty-two divisions of the air defense system.

The complexes were not the newest? Well so what! NATO aircraft also did not consist of some of the latest "stealth". Among the opponents there was a mass of “old men”, the peers of the “Kub” air defense system.

For example, the Dutch flew the F-16A (1 aerial victory), the earliest modification of the Falcon with a lot of flaws. Downed F-16 "Block 40" was also considered by that time outdated machine. And the Italian Air Force attracted to the operation even such “dinosaurs” as the F-104 “Starfighter”.

* * *

With the end of the bombing of Serbia in stories Air defense came a long 15-year break. All offensive campaigns started “zero” were conducted in the absence of opposition from the ground. During this time, many legends were written, as valiant anti-aircraft gunners "threw" dozens of planes on Iraq and Yugoslavia, the main of which was the story about the downed "stealth".

And now - welcome to the new era. The epoch of fantastic aviation complexes, the wise “Tactical Tomahawk” missiles, which plan dozens of kilometers of guided bombs and new methods of air warfare.

In response, the new-generation air defense systems were threateningly targeting from the surface. With high automation and new, advanced features. Impenetrable “armor” and unparalleled C-400, capable of shooting down everyone at once, at distances of hundreds of kilometers.

The first round ended unexpectedly with the victory of air defense weapons. The domestic anti-aircraft complex “C-1 Shell”, delivered to Syria, was shot down by the Turkish reconnaissance “Phantom”. Sent the old man to the scrap.

Further confrontation of air defense and aviation did not cause any optimism. Not a month goes by without news about the next strike of the Western coalition air forces and Israel on the Syrian territory. Fly and bomb what they want. Despite the presence of “impenetrable armor” and C-400, whose index hints at the possibility of controlling space over half of the Middle East.



Unpunished air strikes cause ridicule among countries where their own successes are zero; it remains only to scrape the others. But the domestic approach is also good: for a good ten years, the media painted daily the outstanding properties of “Armor” and “Triumph”. The military showed them in parades, promising to shoot down everything that comes close to 400 (now 500) kilometers to the air defense system positions.

With the same success, you can assure colleagues that you own telepathy, knowing that as soon as possible the facts will show the opposite and will make you laugh.

“Hour X” was a missile attack on the air base Shairat. In an effort to protect shoulder straps and reputation, justified in different ways. Someone referred to the absence of an order. Others honestly wrote about the lack of technical ability to intercept. In that situation, the presence or absence of an order did not matter.

Our C-400 air defense system, which is deployed in Syria, at Hamim’s airbase, could not technically be able to bring down the American Tomahawks. Prior to the Syrian air base Shairat, which was attacked by the Americans, from Hamimim about 100 km. However, for air defense systems there is a restrictive concept of a radio horizon.

Yes, the maximum range of the C-400 is 400 km. But you have to understand: this is the reach of air targets that operate at medium and high altitudes. Cruise missiles that operate at altitudes of 30 − 50 meters are not visible from such a distance simply because the Earth’s “curve” is spherical. In short, the American "Tomahawks" were outside the radio horizon C-400. (Colonel of the reserve, member of the Expert Council of the Board of the Military-Industrial Commission of the Russian Federation Viktor Murakhovsky.)


If the application is subjected to logical analysis, it turns out that any, the most advanced air defense system is powerless against low-flying aircraft and missiles.

Modern aircraft for striking do not even need to fly near the target. This makes the reflection of an attack by means of ground defense almost impossible.

On the aviation side, physics and the laws of nature.

40 years ago

The last indisputable air defense triumph was the Arab-Israeli war of 1973. Well, as if in triumph, they still blew it. But nonetheless. The essence is different.

The most up-to-date anti-aircraft complexes with calculations completed by Soviet “advisers and military experts” caused simply offensive losses to the “invincible” Hel Haavir (Israeli Air Force).

100-150 destroyed aircraft and helicopters (according to the Syrian side - more than 200), including shot down in aerial combat and lost for inevitable technical reasons. A quarter of the Israeli military fleet - in the flow.

The reason is a low percentage of high-precision weapons. Armed with “cast iron”, the Israeli “Mirage” and “Phantoms” were forced to “shove in the forehead” on anti-aircraft missiles, for which they paid.

What does this example have to do with our time? Yes, no. With the same success, you can refer to the actions of air defense in Vietnam.

The differences between the wars of the middle and the end of the XX century were described at the very beginning:

The increase in the range of use of aircraft ammunition in conjunction with the development of cruise missiles and methods of improving survival for combat aircraft led to a sharp weakening of air defense weapons.


Why does aviation win?

The highest mobility among all existing weapons systems. Initiative. The ability to quickly group forces and choose the time, place and unexpected direction to attack. Supersonic breakthroughs at low altitudes.

A wide range of “traps”, “surprises” and special means, allowing to “lead by the nose” the best anti-aircraft complexes.

For example, MALD, simulators of air targets, massively launched into the air defense zone of action. For ground-based radars, they are practically indistinguishable from fighters and, moreover, cruise missiles, imitating simple maneuvers and radio communications crews. They fly hundreds of kilometers.



The task of these "dummies" - to disperse and divert the attention of anti-aircraft calculations from these goals. To force to activate the radar, on which the “blocking” the PI.

What is PI? These are anti-radar missiles, induced by radar radiation.

At the moment, strongly evolved, turning into “heavenly mines”. Airplanes do not even need to be constantly in dangerous proximity to the enemy's air defense systems - it is enough to “hang out” about a dozen such surprises in the sky.


ALARM (Air Launched Anti-Radiation Missile). This is not a primitive “Shrike” from the time of the Arab-Israeli war with a single working frequency and field of view, like a mole.


Rockets soar upward and slowly descend from the stratosphere by parachute (tens of minutes). As soon as the guidance head fixes the radar on, the parachute is shot off, the ALARM again turns into a supersonic rocket, falling by a meteorite at the position of the air defense missile system.

Accuracy is not perfect, but a couple of volleys with such “toys” are the guaranteed end of any air defense.



Not counting the less complex and artsy PRR AGM-88 HARM, produced in the direction of working radar. Suspecting something was wrong and having urgently turned off the radar, the calculation is still doomed - the HARM need only see the target once. Having lost the guiding signal, the modern PI is flying in the direction from which the signal was last recorded.

This does not negate the likelihood that a blunt PI, instead of a radar, attacks the microwave. Just consumable ammunition. Do not hit one, hit the second. Pilots risk nothing - they are a hundred kilometers below the radio horizon of ground-based radars.

Towed traps, aerial anti-radar mines and conventional PRRs, electronic warfare equipment, cruise missiles, Drones-kamikaze, electronic reconnaissance aircraft capable of finding the direction of the radar from distances of hundreds of kilometers (from the airspace of a neighboring country).

In such circumstances, the situation with air defense reminds the story of the impassable Maginot Line, which could not stand the clash with the realities of the new war.

In the armies of the western type, air defense systems receive an order of magnitude less attention, the same “Patriots” are never considered as the main means of protecting the airspace. They are on the second (if not the third) roles, after the fighters. Aviation can only fight aviation (of course, comparable in quantity and quality of technology and l / s).

Western air defense systems, Aegis, THAAD and Iron Dome are increasingly turning into missile defense systems. For firing at radio-contrast targets at high altitudes, when the calculations still have time to detect and intercept the target.
373 comments
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  1. +44
    21 July 2017 06: 46
    Such a long article with a simple meaning: "Katz offers to give up" ...
    1. +37
      21 July 2017 06: 53
      Aviation can only fight aviation



      Nebalagur simply did not have the ability to understand what was written.
      1. +39
        21 July 2017 06: 56
        Do not judge the reality of air defense under the article of the couch "expert"
        1. +31
          21 July 2017 07: 07
          It should be noted that high-speed small-sized high-precision ammunition, which is extremely difficult to hit precisely because of its small size and high speed, becomes a new serious air defense problem (it will be especially difficult if hypersonic ammunition appears). In addition, the range of these munitions is constantly growing, removing carriers, that is, aircraft, from the zone of the air defense. This makes the air defense position frankly hopeless, because the fight against ammunition without the possibility of destroying carriers is obviously losing: sooner or later it will lead to depletion of the SAM system’s ammunition, after which both the SAM and the objects they hide will be easily destroyed.

          Another no less serious problem is unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). At a minimum, this is a problem because they simply become very numerous, which further aggravates the problem of a shortage of ammunition for the air defense system. Much worse is that a significant part of the UAVs are so small in size that no existing air defense weapons can either detect them, or even hit them, since neither the radar nor the missile defense systems are simply designed for such purposes.

          In this regard, the case that occurred in July 2016 of the year is very indicative. The extremely high level of technical equipment and combat training of the personnel of the Israeli armed forces is well known. However, the Israelis could not do anything with a small, slow-moving, unarmed Russian reconnaissance UAV, which appeared above the northern regions of Israel. First, the air-to-air missile from the F-16 fighter, and then the two Patriot missiles, passed by, after which the UAV went unhindered into Syrian airspace.

          In connection with these circumstances, the criteria for the effectiveness and effectiveness of air defense systems may be completely different. As the air defense weapons themselves.


          Author: Alexander Khramchikhin
          Source: https: //topwar.ru/120504-dazhe-muha-ne-p
          roletit.html
          1. +10
            21 July 2017 07: 21
            The ground component of air defense is only part of the air defense itself, so to speak about its inefficiency in examples where this system was absent ... not right
          2. +1
            21 July 2017 07: 22
            And the case with the Israeli air defense is otd. moment
          3. +55
            21 July 2017 08: 41
            As a person related to air defense, I’ll explain local conflicts under the analysis of integrated air defense systems (like the Russian Federation or the People’s Republic of China), it’s stupid to summarize, I explain why, the Russian Federation has the ability to track the take-off of airplanes from airfields located in the United States (moreover, as large groups, and solitary), I’m silent about Europe in general, the first attempt to strike at these means leads to a retaliatory nuclear strike! And by the way, with regards to Syria, our local air defense systems there are much more visible than they say, and all the large-scale actions of the Western coalition can only lead to an answer. Very superficial article! It would be better to understand with these examples how the lack of an integrated air defense system in the country allows Western jackals to bomb civilians with impunity!
            1. +21
              21 July 2017 10: 39
              Quote: Hammer 75
              As a person related to air defense, I’ll explain local conflicts under the analysis of integrated air defense systems (like the Russian Federation or the People’s Republic of China), it’s stupid to summarize, I explain why, the Russian Federation has the ability to track the take-off of airplanes from airfields located in the United States (moreover, as large groups, and solitary), I’m silent about Europe in general, the first attempt to strike at these means leads to a retaliatory nuclear strike!


              And why then do we need these expensive air defense systems if we respond with nuclear weapons in any attack on them? )))
              After all, it turns out that with any attack in our country, we will respond with nuclear weapons.
              1. +18
                21 July 2017 11: 00
                Quote: trenkkvaz
                After all, it turns out that with any attack in our country, we will respond with nuclear weapons.

                Actually, this is a return to the origins, before the advent of the concept of limited war.
                The Russian Armed Forces will blow out a limited war of a first-class army, there are no options. At least this is the opinion of people who are well arguing their position.
                1. +11
                  21 July 2017 14: 05
                  Interesting and who has such a first-class army?
                  1. +8
                    21 July 2017 18: 56
                    NATO in flight, their first-class armies have long ceased to be.
                    1. +3
                      22 July 2017 00: 07
                      Quote: marder7
                      their armies were no longer first-class.

                      Their commanders ceased to be first-class. But they change from time to time.
                      1. +14
                        23 July 2017 16: 39
                        By God, like children. Poroshenko bluntly stated that the most, the most army-Ukrainian and a little US.
                      2. +1
                        23 July 2017 21: 09
                        Quote: zenion
                        Poroshenko bluntly stated that the most, the most army-Ukrainian

                        We are waiting for an apology to Ramzan.
                2. +2
                  23 November 2017 08: 19
                  Cherry Nine July 21, 2017 11:00
                  The Russian Armed Forces will blow out a limited war of a first-class army, there are no options. At least this is the opinion of people who are well arguing their position.

                  depending on what arguments they operate on. But even if they undertook to predict the outcome of such a scenario based on a comparison of military, economic and other potentials, then this already speaks of their weak competence. Or stupid, anyone like ...
              2. +10
                21 July 2017 12: 30
                If the assessment of the elimination of the threat allows the use of less resources, for example 1-2 S-300 missiles, then nuclear weapons are not needed, if a massive strike by various means is planned for us, which will lead to the failure of air defense systems, then nuclear weapons. Everything is simple!
              3. 0
                21 July 2017 13: 32
                Syria, Ukraine, Poland, the Baltic states - we won’t need nuclear weapons there
                1. +2
                  22 July 2017 10: 45
                  Quote: Prjanik
                  we do not need nuclear weapons

                  if the enemy is so close .. then trouble
                2. +1
                  22 July 2017 14: 33
                  Syria, maybe not, it's a pity. In general, it’s easiest to kill a cockroach with a slipper
            2. +8
              21 July 2017 18: 36
              Quote: Hammer 75
              the Russian Federation has the ability to track the take-off of aircraft from airfields located in the United States (with which both large groups and single), I’m silent about Europe,

              And the truth would be better silent. If you said about your attitude to air defense to give weight to your words - this is one thing, but if you are really from air defense, then I went to the garage to dig a bomb shelter.
              1. +6
                22 July 2017 00: 20
                Quote: SkepticCynic
                Quote: Hammer 75
                the Russian Federation has the ability to track the take-off of aircraft from airfields located in the United States (with which both large groups and single), I’m silent about Europe,

                And the truth would be better silent. If you said about your attitude to air defense to give weight to your words - this is one thing, but if you are really from air defense, then I went to the garage to dig a bomb shelter.

                it’s better to dig, in the 80s our tracked BR launch from anywhere in the US without satellites
                1. +1
                  25 July 2017 14: 41
                  Quote: poquello
                  it’s better to dig, in the 80s our tracked BR launch from anywhere in the US without satellites


                  It is difficult not to track - very powerful light emission is observed with the naked eye from the surface of the earth from 500-1000 km, and from an airplane visually over 2000-3000 km.
                  1. 0
                    25 July 2017 20: 29
                    Quote: DimerVladimer
                    Quote: poquello
                    it’s better to dig, in the 80s our tracked BR launch from anywhere in the US without satellites

                    It is difficult not to track - very powerful light emission is observed with the naked eye from the surface of the earth from 500-1000 km, and from an airplane visually over 2000-3000 km.

                    )) no no, we looked at the radar "arc"
              2. +2
                24 July 2017 08: 55
                You are my clever man, you can dig anything you like, but don’t be rude to adult uncles, otherwise I’ll spank him!
            3. +3
              22 July 2017 00: 08
              Quote: Hammer 75
              It would be better to understand with these examples how the absence of an integrated air defense system

              it was even easier there, they revealed and hollowed behind an effective ceiling, if they were moved to a horizontal plane, they were shot at a distance, and there is only one conclusion - modern air defense systems must be had against modern aircraft
            4. +9
              22 July 2017 13: 07
              Sandpiper praises his swamp. Integrated or non-integrated air defense, what's the difference? The author convincingly proved that the air defense lifetime is several days at best. And given the preponderance of NATO in airplanes - even less.
              1. +3
                22 July 2017 14: 36
                For centuries, air defense batteries have been a primary goal. During the Second World War, the same Ily first extinguished air defense. Their task, like that of border guards, is to warn and take the first blow in time, trying to inflict maximum damage
              2. +2
                24 July 2017 09: 01
                Why are you all kidding, or something, all of NATO’s aviation could not have guaranteed a break through with access to strategic facilities (except St. Petersburg), even at the 1990 level, look at air defense not only as air defense batteries. Even a cloud above small drones is not a solution to the problem of overcoming the complex air defense system of the Russian Federation. For example, launch a drone near (15 km) from the radar of a commercial aerodrome, and then be sure to write what happened.
          4. +4
            21 July 2017 10: 45
            Long before that, either the MiG-29, or the Su-27 dropped a missile directly into the UAV’s chamber.

            Because the F-16, which also, as we see, has done it, has a miserable radar.
          5. +45
            21 July 2017 11: 02
            Oleg, you still have some kind of substitution of concepts: you are comparing the actions of strategic (previously called the country's air defense) and military air defense systems against aviation, superior to these systems by two generations. S-75 and S-125 were created in the 50s, and F-15 and F-16 - this is at least the end of the 70s and later. In addition, in all the examples cited, the air defense systems worked in survivability mode, that is, without combining them in the ACS, and in order to combat even the early versions of the F-4, such a combination is necessary, without it the effectiveness of the air defense system decreases by an order of magnitude, you can only use the air defense system for a single shot from an ambush - further relocation is needed, which was constantly used in Vietnam. About 1982 - this mention caused a grin. While still at the institute, I heard from one of the participants in those events a real version of what happened. It was simply unthinkable to do the service as the Arabs did by Soviet standards - they do not give a damn about the technique (the Russians will fix it!), And about the military work, about the regime of secrecy. Israel took advantage of this. This operation on the part of Israel was by no means spontaneous, it was the result of painstaking intelligence work. And the pilots who received the order for the attack knew very well that no response would be gouging among the Syrians, and the air defense missile system, even the officer corps at the time of the attack, was partially absent, and the personnel was simply not enough for combat work.
            It was the same in Libya in 1986.
            Almost the same is true in Yugoslavia. The main thing - there were separate air defense systems, but there was no air defense system. And about the effectiveness of air defense can be said precisely as the effectiveness of the system. And in this system as an integral part should include radio engineering troops, and air defense.
            It is not worth mentioning the attack with axes in Syria in general in terms of evaluating the effectiveness of air defense - the Americans warned Russia in the framework of existing agreements, and attacking axes in these conditions meant an act of aggression. I do not mention the fact that for six dozens of axes, two missile defense systems would not have missiles elementary without reloading (counting 2 missiles per ax with a hit efficiency of 0,98). To repel such attacks, it is not separate air defense systems that are needed, but an air defense system.
            1. +7
              21 July 2017 12: 50
              If we talk about Vietnam, then, in principle, the United States could bomb anything there, and yes they did. The overwhelming numerical superiority has affected. Another thing is that even in these conditions they suffered serious losses, both from the air defense systems and from the small and rather primitive (there were very few MiG-21 there) Vietnamese aircraft. That is, the air defense system, more or less, worked. In all cases, Kaptsov’s losing side was completely lost, aviation, even if it was in large numbers, also did nothing. From the word in general.
              1. +4
                23 July 2017 13: 21
                3374 lost the United States in Vietnam.
                1. +5
                  26 July 2017 18: 43
                  DRV official information:
                  During the war, from 05.08.1964/31.12.1972/4181 to 2568/60/320, 9 American aircraft were shot down over the territory of North Vietnam, including: anti-aircraft artillery - 1293 (31%), fighter aircraft - 32 (90%), anti-aircraft missile forces - 52 aircraft (XNUMX%), of which XNUMX (XNUMX%) are strategic B-XNUMX bomber.
                  In 1965 - VNA air defense shot down 834 combat aircraft.
                  In 1966, VNA air defense shot down 773 aircraft, of which 221 were destroyed by missiles.
                  In 1967 - VNA anti-aircraft defense shot down 1067 aircraft, including ZRV - 435, IA - 129 (1 B-52), ZA - 503 aircraft.
                  In 1968, there were 557 aircraft, including ZRV - 119, IA - 47 aircraft.
                  In 1969 - 71 aircraft.
                  In 1970 - 43 aircraft.
                  In 1971 - 56 aircraft.
                  In 1972, 922 aircraft, including 34 B-52, of which 32 - missiles.
                  The ratio of losses of parties in air battles for the entire war 131/320 in favor of the Vietnamese Air Force.

                  PS. In the period from April 1968 to March 1972, Americans bombed only a narrow strip of the territory of the DRV (from the 17th to 20th parallel).
            2. +14
              21 July 2017 14: 09
              Yes, there is always something bad for a bad dancer. Either the Negroes are not the same, the generation of planes either flew in as they expected, or the Earth suddenly turned round.
              Quote: andj61
              Americans in the framework of existing agreements warned Russia, and attacking axes in these conditions meant committing an act of aggression

              And here it’s generally funny. That is, axes attack the base with the Russian military and their allies is not an act of aggression, but to bring down these means of attack is an act of aggression?
              Gopnik hits me, but I’m not defending myself, because otherwise it will be an act of aggression.
              Funny.
              1. +5
                21 July 2017 15: 34
                Quote: Walanin
                That is, axes attack the base with the Russian military and their allies is not an act of aggression, but to bring down these means of attack is an act of aggression?

                Giggled? Now think: what if the merikos warned the Russians to get them off the problem base in time?
                1. +16
                  21 July 2017 17: 53
                  Quote: Nikolaevich I
                  Now think: what if the merikos warned the Russians to get them off the problem base in time?

                  This of course changes everything.

                  I am walking down the street with a comrade whom I promised to defend, a gopot comes up and tells me, but he quickly got out of here and kicks the comrade. I quickly run away from fear, and then I yell everywhere that not all blows flew at him.
                  That's better?
                  1. +12
                    21 July 2017 19: 07
                    1. Russia did not promise to defend Syria. only help your air force.
                    2. There were no Russian military at this base (Syrian base)
                    so there’s nothing to distort.
                    1. +10
                      21 July 2017 20: 04
                      Quote: marder7
                      1. Russia did not promise to defend Syria. only help your air force.

                      As promised. Preserve the integrity and sovereignty of Syria. True true.
                      Quote: marder7
                      There were no Russian military at this base (Syrian base)

                      and the Russian Ministry of Defense says that they were, they just escaped after the Americans warned, but they did not warn their Syrian sidekicks. They are lying?
                      1. +2
                        25 July 2017 10: 41
                        Apparently, I alone did not read the agreement between Syria and Russia. Everyone knows every item. and all specialists in international jurisprudence.
                  2. +8
                    21 July 2017 23: 56
                    Quote: Walanin
                    That's better?

                    Of course not! But think: who is this "gopota" and what is the USA? And Syria is that "comrade", which, with a "proposal" advantageous to itself, will easily cease to be a "comrade"! It’s somehow not very correct to compare street showdown with the scale of the international conflict! Yes ! The United States violated international law; but this is a state that has not yet abandoned the anesthesia of permissiveness and its exclusivity ... it is necessary to put it in place, but without sharp movements (so as not to run into a riot), Russia did not commit itself to regard any attack on the Syrian armed forces and objects as an act of aggression against the Russian Federation! Only help! Military and other .... which is being carried out. The USA was struck at an object where there were no Russian troops (at the time of the strike), for which there was a warning. The use of air defense by Russia at that moment (!) Can be regarded as an act of aggression by the Russian Federation against the United States ..... with all the possible "consequences" arising from here. And we need it ... now?
                    1. +6
                      22 July 2017 17: 22
                      Quote: Nikolaevich I
                      Russia did not commit itself to regard any attack on the Syrian armed forces and targets as an act of aggression against the Russian Federation

                      this is the position of the object, but not the subject in politics.
                      Quote: Nikolaevich I
                      The US gift was inflicted on an object where there were no Russian troops (at the time of the strike), for which there was a warning.

                      in other words, the military personnel of the Russian Federation draped from there when they pointed out the place, which is exactly what I said.
                      Quote: Nikolaevich I
                      The use of air defense by Russia at that moment (!) Can be regarded as an act of aggression of the Russian Federation against the United States

                      What kind of joy? The Russian Federation is located in Syria legally. US missiles - no. A strong state would definitely bring down everything that is not recognized as its own in the sky. Russia not only did not even try (although there was nothing special), but on the contrary escaped from the site of the strike. If it had not fled, it would have been an act of US aggression against the Russian Federation. With all the consequences. And the United States would probably have canceled the attack.
                      Do you understand the difference between a strong fighter and a cowardly gopnik?
                      1. +7
                        23 July 2017 16: 18
                        A very popular Internet topic ... Although it is clear to any stupid person that in this particular situation the question of “knock down - not knock down” was decided at the very top, and there were a lot of considerations that went beyond the competence of the General Staff ... And the fact that Shairat’s base didn’t suffer any serious damage tells a clever person a lot ... But there are a lot of gentlemen who think that they know everything about everything and have the right to judge the decisions taken by the Supreme ... Well, let them consider ... They are smart ... very ...
                      2. 0
                        25 July 2017 10: 43
                        and the difference between a gopnik and a fast runner?
                  3. +1
                    23 July 2017 13: 31
                    For starters, you should watch the game of thrones series, listen carefully to the dialogues, think about the texts of the main characters. And then to figure out how closely you can compare the relationship between states and individuals.
                    1. +1
                      25 July 2017 10: 44
                      What immediately can be difficult to start with Kolobok. When an individual Kolobok left the roof of "Grandfather Grandma and Co."
              2. +7
                22 July 2017 14: 41
                About whom that interferes. I had the opportunity to participate in the exercises together with the NECS, where the Arabs studied. He was in complete shock when the tank slowed down in the middle of the floating bridge, and the Arab climbed out onto the tower to pray. So in terms of personnel - no need
            3. +2
              21 July 2017 15: 21
              Yes 99% nobody warned anyone. Bite away from Khmeinima.
          6. +2
            21 July 2017 23: 28
            "First, the air-to-air missile from the F-16 fighter, and then two SAM Patriot missiles went past"
            We must fight with the like. Namely, an air drone needs a drone killer, armed with an ordinary machine gun. Such a contraption is able to hang over a guarded object for a long time and shoot down any approaching target.
          7. 0
            22 July 2017 00: 00
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            it will become especially difficult if hypersonic ammunition appears). In addition, the range of these ammunition is constantly growing, removing carriers, that is, aircraft, from the air defense zone.

            kindergarten to go nuts, if my grandmother had a member, and why the needle does not hit 100500 km
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            the Israelis were unable to do anything with the small, slow-moving, unarmed Russian reconnaissance UAV that appeared over the northern regions of Israel.

            dude confused the problems of Israel and air defense
          8. +1
            26 July 2017 18: 46
            At least (!!!) Your point of view has the right to attention.
            The problem of air defense systems is more in the review, or rather in the radar field. It’s interesting (I’m not exaggerating) if there would be a Voronezh-DM radar station in the SAR, would this help?
            or how to solve the problem of the damn planet wassat ?
            Do not keep the A-50 in the air around the clock?
            Regarding the small size of the targets: this is probably a question of the frequency of radio waves of the air defense / missile defense radar + sensitivity of homing heads.
            That and it seems like our missiles do not hit the tandem, but have something like a fuse on approach, which guarantees the destruction of the target with shrapnel.
            Apparently the same patriots and the dome were beaten (by “ironing” (c) Kaptsov)good
            The conditions for conducting air defense exercises are interesting. I would personally randomly shoot on a tangent radius of action at 365/24 in time and then it would become clear who was paying off.
            But I think that in this case the heads of the generals would fly faster than hypersound.
            I want to believe that our people know what they are doing.
            And you should still remember the situation with the same shirat that most of the axes did not reach the target. Of course, I’m not sure about the reasons for this file, but again I want to believe that the electronic warfare and air defense have done their job.
            ps I can be mistaken in many ways, I will be glad to adjust)
          9. 0
            17 March 2018 14: 03
            Shame on you! Do not write nonsense! Zrk Shell-C1 detects drones with EPR = 2 cm2 at a distance of 3,6 km ... in the last topic I counted you all about Shell-C1 ... and this is less than a hand - such a drone cannot even carry weapons !!!
        2. +27
          21 July 2017 08: 22
          Quote: Fridrih
          Do not judge reality

          In order for air defense to be reliable, it is necessary:
          1.Integrated the use of fighter aircraft, air defense systems, anti-aircraft artillery, EW tools, including AWACS and space intelligence. Fighters are good for some tasks, air defense systems for somewhat different ones, and air defense systems too.
          2. The technical level of air defense equipment must correspond to the level of air attack equipment.
          3. An air defense army must be set up against the air army, not a couple of squadrons of obsolete interceptors and several divisions of old air defense systems without modern reconnaissance and electronic warfare equipment.
          4. High professional training as the command of air defense, and military calculations, crews, pilots, etc.
          All this has long been known and the horse is understandable, but probably not to the author.
          1. +9
            21 July 2017 09: 30
            I forgot, about the most important thing when conducting an anti-aircraft operation - this is the need for strikes at enemy air bases and command posts. Without this, success against a strong air adversary is unrealistic.
            1. +8
              21 July 2017 12: 55
              "you can not win the war defending"
              1. +4
                21 July 2017 14: 16
                Well, in our country, it is.
                no money, but you hold on.
                1. +1
                  21 July 2017 15: 57
                  we have another problem, there is no organization that would be engaged in analytics in the field of technology, and therefore we spend money inefficiently.
                  1. +7
                    21 July 2017 19: 08
                    the best air defense is our tanks at their airport wink
        3. +19
          21 July 2017 09: 04
          You can write the same article about the futility of aviation, precision weapons and UAVs and a bunch of facts ...
          Modern air defense works well in conjunction with electronic warfare and false targets .... and the poor results of using air defense given by the author are based on the human factor of anti-aircraft calculations and command which had poor motivation, poor training and lack of ingenuity ....
          In the same Yugoslavia, at the beginning of the NATO operation, all air defense was turned off. The tactics of the Yugoslav government were not in repelling aggression, but in attempts to soften the world community.
          1. +5
            21 July 2017 14: 03
            Quote: seos
            You can write the same article about the futility of aviation, precision weapons and UAVs and a bunch of facts ...

            Moreover, an article on the futility of fighters can be written on the same examples. smile
            1. +3
              25 July 2017 10: 47
              Apparently, the Great Ukrainian Wall is 25 meters high from the Caliber rockets.
          2. +7
            21 July 2017 14: 44
            Quote: seos
            In the same Yugoslavia, at the beginning of the NATO operation, all air defense was turned off.

            You don’t understand correctly at the root. "Disabled" the mode of continuous operation of air defense, instead they began to use ambush tactics. And it was not politicians who turned it off at all, but the military themselves, because in another way without a chance, the recent war in Iraq clearly showed this.
            1. +4
              21 July 2017 15: 39
              Quote: Passing by
              And it was not politicians who turned it off at all, but the military themselves, because in another way without a chance, the recent war in Iraq clearly showed this.

              Well, here the Serbs have a serious excuse: a clear superiority (both numerical and organizational ...) of the means of attack over the means of defense ...
        4. +14
          21 July 2017 09: 55
          The next article will be insidious about how many shot down the F-15 and MiG-25.
          Microwaves on the ground can be scattered more than an aircraft carries missiles. Over the horizon, large missiles are induced for example using AWACS (any). The cost of missiles or anti-ship missiles the size of an F-16 is 20+ times less than its cost.
          Losses of US and NATO aviation in the American military bulletin stated in the article do not correspond. Based on museum exhibits of the USSR in WWII, I shot down almost nothing.
          America’s last almost unconditional big victory was America’s withdrawal from Vietnam. They reprimanded themselves only a pause of 2 years to get out of there without losing face.
          1. +3
            21 July 2017 14: 11
            Quote: Scratchy Doll
            Over the horizon, large missiles are induced for example using AWACS (any).

            What Russian missiles can be induced with an A-50 AWACS?
            1. +2
              21 July 2017 14: 18
              For example, those for which AWACS now flies in Syria.
              1. +3
                21 July 2017 14: 33
                In short, you are not able to name specific facts, for this is simply a fiction.
                1. +1
                  21 July 2017 15: 09
                  For you do not understand. Small and medium-sized RVV are also induced by AWACS.
                  1. +6
                    21 July 2017 15: 14
                    Will you bring the facts to the studio, or will you still be the usual average sofa balabol? hi
                    1. +2
                      21 July 2017 15: 37
                      You didn’t see the facts either. Stay hungry in your studio.
                      1. +3
                        21 July 2017 17: 54
                        And so the patriotic dreamers merge.
                      2. +2
                        21 July 2017 18: 05
                        So they become cranks. Even in the summer.
                  2. +2
                    21 July 2017 22: 27
                    There aren’t enough anti-aircraft missiles, the enemy will make tens of thousands of kamikaze drones - which will be the first wave of attack, air defense missile defense calculations will spend on them the entire missile ammunition - and then the cover. We have armor for the whole of Russia only 100 pieces.
                    1. +2
                      21 July 2017 23: 42
                      What will prevent them from shooting down these "drones" of MZA?
                      How again will these "drones" themselves distinguish microwaves from real air defense systems?
                      1. 0
                        24 July 2017 23: 48
                        Moreover, there are microwaves, the optical control system is combined, with an electronic map of the area and a communication system with the rest of the drones to transmit the coordinates of air defense positions. Alas, microwave assisted from cruise missiles, but they will not help anymore, as well as electronic warfare systems.
                    2. +1
                      22 July 2017 00: 48
                      Quote: Vadim237
                      There aren’t enough anti-aircraft missiles, the enemy will make tens of thousands of kamikaze drones - which will be the first wave of attack, air defense missile defense calculations will spend on them the entire missile ammunition - and then the cover. We have armor for the whole of Russia only 100 pieces.

                      firstly, the Chinese will do ten thousand drones faster, they are now working out a swarm system,
                      secondly - why spend rockets on them, they will work out with guns,
                      thirdly, they will not be confused with anything
                      1. +1
                        24 July 2017 23: 43
                        Unfortunately, UAVs flying three meters from the ground, knocking down guns is extremely problematic.
                    3. 0
                      25 July 2017 11: 13
                      Quote: Vadim237
                      Moreover, there are microwaves, the optical control system is combined, with an electronic map of the area and a communication system with the rest of the drones to transmit the coordinates of air defense positions. Alas, microwave assisted from cruise missiles, but they will not help anymore, as well as electronic warfare systems.

                      Despite the fact that PRR. For others, a cardboard layout is inflated or installed.
                      3m from the ground, without ordinary problems, ordinary hunters fall.
            2. The comment was deleted.
          2. +3
            21 July 2017 15: 17
            Quote: Scratchy Doll
            Microwaves on the ground can be scattered more than an aircraft carries missiles.

            There is no way to get rid of a simple microwave magnetron included in the first power outlet, PR rockets are so stupid, each SAM has strictly fixed operating frequencies, and most importantly, strictly fixed operation algorithms. Those. We need a specially made full simulator of radar operation, i.e. emitter, electronics (complex, tied to air defense systems), generator, chassis, people, resources for maintenance and repair. And this is a very serious cost.
            Another reason why such simulators can not be very much - they, unlike the PRR, must be constantly deployed, and work at least in standby mode. Even in peacetime.
            And finally, with each change of position of the air defense system, it is necessary to move the system of these imitators. Imagine this process, its duration, if there are hundreds of them in the system.
            But a hundred PRR can be concentrated in one place. Fast and cheap. It is not realistic to crush the number of false PRR targets.
            Over the horizon, large missiles are induced for example using AWACS

            100% losing option. AWACS, in principle, cannot hang in the air in 365/24 mode, the enemy will strike precisely at the moment when no one is watching.
            1. +2
              21 July 2017 15: 57
              So the American PRR were not so intelligent.
              Why would they all work in this mode? False targets are definitely safer and cheaper.
              In principle, they should. So somebody is looking. Even the Tu-126 carried combat duty constantly. The enemy will strike so it will already be a full-scale war.
              1. +3
                21 July 2017 17: 04
                Quote: Scratchy Doll
                Why should they all work in this mode

                I do not quite understand the question, if you ask why false goals need to be constantly on duty, then, obviously, the main drawback of the game is from defense, that you cannot predict the moment of the strike, you have to be always ready, even in peacetime. If not, then the first blow will be fatal.
                Quote: Scratchy Doll
                False targets are definitely safer and cheaper

                What are the false goals? False targets made of wood and cardboard are undoubtedly the only ones, alas, they are useless. But a complex electronic device, consuming kilowatts per hour, consuming mechanical and electronic resources, requiring calculation from people, working in 365/24 mode, can not be cheaper than quietly gathering dust in a warehouse of PRR.
                Quote: Scratchy Doll
                In principle, they should.

                The A-50 AWAC has a 4-hour standby time, with refueling 7. At least three planes are needed on the day of duty - 2 A-50, and one refueling station. This is theoretically. In reality, you need at least 4 A-50s and two tankers. Just because each aircraft has its own crew, shift crews on sophisticated equipment are not practiced. Why not 3 A-50s and not one tanker? Because there are 24 hours in a day, people cannot live for months on a schedule of -3 hours by the start of a shift every new day. There are two tankers for the same reason, one crew will not pull out refueling every 7 hours. This I did not consider the weekend issue for the crews. To this you need to add a backup aircraft for prevention and repair.
                In total, in order to GUARANTEE cover one area in 365/24 mode, you need 5 AWACS aircraft, and three refueling!
                We are armed with 19 AWACS aircraft, i.e. enough for only four districts, but what about the rest, undisguised?
                1. 0
                  21 July 2017 17: 34
                  Why should everyone?
                  Type of microwave. She does not need a calculation. There are still inflatable.
                  There are AWACS based not only on the A-50. 4 things. The MiG-31 along the front replace this AWAC.
                  1. +2
                    21 July 2017 23: 56
                    Inflatable microwaves do not deceive PRR)))

                    Four MiG-31 replace A-50 ??? This is not serious.
                    You can of course engage in 3D modeling with a smartphone, but there is no point in this. So here, the MiG-31 is strictly an interceptor, no more and no less.
                    1. 0
                      22 July 2017 07: 26
                      Not guessed in all three paragraphs.
                2. +2
                  21 July 2017 22: 58
                  Sorry to pass by, but for 365/24 mode there is an over-the-horizon radar. Some of them see targets near the ground at a distance of 5000 km. And AWACS is more likely front-line air defense and control. Of course, over-the-horizon radar satisfaction is VERY expensive but ABSOLUTELY. At least for peacetime and the beginning of a big conflict. And then the beginning ... there is a vigorous loaf :)
                  1. +5
                    21 July 2017 23: 42
                    Over-the-horizon radars do not see planes beyond 5000 km, at such a great distance they only see the ion torch / track from the operation of the rocket engine, it is huge. Although for a thousand or two they will probably be able to find some kind of transporter, but not KR. Yes, that's not even the point, they have a serious drawback - a blind zone to the nearest several hundred km. This minus makes them fundamentally unsuitable for air defense tasks.
                    So AWAC is the only way to detect an enemy at low altitudes, precisely in the zone where there is a critical air defense vulnerability, i.e. from the radio horizon to hundreds of kilometers.
                    1. +4
                      24 July 2017 00: 38
                      Well, in general, you are right if it concerns the first generation ZgRLS stations (Arc for example). They found only BR launches and even then mass ones. But much more modern Don 2 and others even detect non-flying RCs (all the same, for their signal “beating” from above the ESR is much larger than from the front hemisphere). Of course, at least 300 km away. All the same, no one has canceled the dead zone at ZgRLS, but nobody can build such stations near the border either. So for the EARLY DETECTION of launching the CR, they are just as suitable as for tracking carriers. But in the fact that the cover of the near zone does not absolutely agree to the replacement of AWACS (for now). Although now they talk about raising the antenna post on airships, etc. :)
            2. 0
              25 July 2017 15: 01
              Quote: Passing by
              And finally, with each change of position of the air defense system, it is necessary to move the system of these imitators. Imagine this process, its duration, if there are hundreds of them in the system.


              Not so hard
              Mobile radar simulator
              http://concern-agat.ru/produktsiya/radiolokatsiya
              / imitator-radiolokatsionykh-signalov-mobilnyj
              The simulator provides reception, recording and the formation of a base of the real interference situation in the areas of the intended operation of the ships, as well as the simulation and emission of electromagnetic interference in the direction of the checked electronic equipment.
              This is a civilian model that can be fully represented in the necessary power to simulate the corresponding radar parameters.

              Filling the space with inflatable models of radar, simulators of radar signals will not be very expensive and not very difficult.
              The number of PRRs is not infinite either - hardly anyone will be tempted to shoot at inflatable radars at random. Expensive.
          3. +2
            25 July 2017 19: 58
            radar strike(in any case this is war !!!) - will mean retaliatory strike of nuclear weapons.
            Therefore, drones (as well as most of the aircraft) IMMEDIATELY become irrelevant - too large EMP will begin to walk on the surface of the earth
        5. 0
          21 July 2017 23: 44
          Quote: Fridrih
          Do not judge the reality of air defense under the article of the couch "expert"

          Yes, he has so much time in VO that it’s time to already learn the objective causes of events by heart, teach bears to ride a bicycle, I don’t even know what to think
      2. +9
        21 July 2017 07: 07
        Ya-ya, naturlih! But in the Ministry of Defense, stupid woodpeckers are sitting, so stupid that the S-500 are demanding, but the armor is new, because they
        there was simply not enough ability to understand what was written
        ...
        1. +12
          21 July 2017 07: 16
          Quote: nebalagur
          And in the Ministry of Defense, stupid woodpeckers are sitting, so stupid

          that built the Maginot Line

          or abandoned machine guns, saying it was a useless toy (the story of Hayram Maxim)
          1. 0
            21 July 2017 07: 26
            that built the Maginot Line

            Would you flip through history at your leisure, or something ... Enlightened, where would Storage and where is Russia?
            1. +3
              21 July 2017 14: 34
              Replace the Maginot line with the Stalin line. Nothing will change.
              1. +2
                21 July 2017 15: 20
                In addition, the Stalin line was disarmed and the Maginot line was bypassed.
                What about the Mannerheim Line?
                1. +2
                  21 July 2017 17: 54
                  Quote: Scratchy Doll
                  In addition, the Stalin line was disarmed and the Maginot line was bypassed.

                  The same thing happens with air defense systems. Something always disturbs a bad dancer.
                  1. +4
                    21 July 2017 18: 02
                    I didn’t guess, they also broke through it.
                    1. +2
                      21 July 2017 18: 04
                      What are you talking about now, sick?
                      1. +2
                        21 July 2017 18: 51
                        The furrier will explain to you.
                    2. +1
                      21 July 2017 20: 05
                      Ah, look stupid. Oh well. Go on to sneak on.
                      1. +2
                        21 July 2017 20: 40
                        Leave me alone, I don’t hold a tire.
              2. +1
                21 July 2017 21: 19
                Quote: Walanin
                Replace the Maginot line with the Stalin line. Nothing will change.

                Russian air defense is mobile and does not compare with a static defense line like the “Stalin” or “Maginot” line.
                1. +3
                  21 July 2017 22: 20
                  Can mobility of a convoy of heavy vehicles and mobility of air attack equipment be compared?
                  1. +4
                    21 July 2017 22: 54
                    Quote: Walanin
                    Can mobility of a convoy of heavy vehicles and mobility of air attack equipment be compared?

                    Mobility - it is different, there is strategic, there is tactical. And what you call mobility in general in a military language is called maneuverability.
                    For example, artillery maneuvers with fire many times faster than aviation.
                    As regards mobility, aviation divisions are inferior to motorized infantry and army air defense.
                    1. 0
                      21 July 2017 23: 00
                      What were you talking about?
                      1. +1
                        21 July 2017 23: 09
                        Quote: Walanin
                        What were you talking about?

                        Apparently you mean maneuverability, aviation has an advantage in maneuverability, which makes it difficult to aim at them, but with the development of guided weapons this advantage has come to naught.
                    2. +1
                      21 July 2017 23: 17
                      Unfortunately, the forum is written by curved programmers. I will answer here.
                      Quote: Setrac
                      Apparently you mean maneuverability, aviation has an advantage in maneuverability

                      no, I didn’t mean it. I mean, what is the use of mobility of the S-300, for example, if it is essentially a stationary thing that is unable to move anywhere except on roads. For a quick transfer somewhere to a low-intensity external conflict, it will go. But what is the point of keeping mobile complexes around Moscow, for example, if they all stand in stationary prepared positions and have nowhere to go?
                      1. +3
                        21 July 2017 23: 26
                        Quote: Walanin
                        But what is the point of keeping mobile complexes around Moscow, for example, if they all stand in stationary prepared positions and have nowhere to go?

                        There is a sense - for example, to change positions. They will be able to leave perfectly. For example, the same tomahawks do not shoot at targets, but at geographical coordinates (roughly speaking), and if the air defense system leaves its position, then the rocket will not be able to understand this.
                      2. +2
                        22 July 2017 20: 12
                        and they have nowhere to go?

                        what does nowhere mean? For a spare stationary position in a couple of kilometers? or transfer them to some Syria
                    3. 0
                      21 July 2017 23: 40
                      Quote: Setrac
                      They will be able to leave perfectly.

                      So where to go then? If you go far, it means that the complex is not operational at the time of the move. And nowhere to go near, for the wheelbase and around the forest.
                      1. +4
                        22 July 2017 00: 46
                        Quote: Walanin
                        So where to go then?

                        To get the right answers, you need to ask the right questions. It doesn't really matter where, the right question is where. Leave a spotlighted position, which in the event of a war with an equal technological adversary will be attacked.
                        Quote: Walanin
                        And nowhere to go near, for the wheelbase and around the forest.

                        17 million square kilometers are not enough for you? Go wherever you want.
                    4. +1
                      22 July 2017 17: 32
                      Quote: Setrac
                      if the air defense system leaves its position, the rocket will not be able to understand this.
                      if the objective air defense system leaves its position, then the covered object will remain defenseless. The question is, why the hell was such an air defense system needed then?
                      Quote: Setrac
                      17 million square kilometers are not enough for you? Go wherever you want.

                      so where exactly? Offering two weeks off-road from Moscow to the Far East? It doesn’t work out, it’s not tanks in the first two weeks and the complex is not operational secondly. Drive 100 meters? So this is not mobility.
                      1. +2
                        22 July 2017 18: 37
                        Quote: Walanin
                        if the objective air defense system leaves its position, then the covered object will remain defenseless. The question is, why the hell was such an air defense system needed then?

                        Quote: Walanin
                        Drive 100 meters? So this is not mobility.

                        Exactly so, drive a short distance, albeit not a hundred meters, but a few kilometers. You do not need to change your position to go to another continent.
      3. +30
        21 July 2017 07: 16
        I don’t have to scratch. I, as a Pvoshnik, perfectly understood the author’s message. He just didn’t finish it, but let’s reduce the RTV (after all, ORLR and RTB hospitals), we will reduce the airborne forces (while there are one missile in the planes and there are not hundreds of guys), we will reduce the SV (one a shot from an RPG on an armored personnel carrier and there are no ten children) .And in general, we’ll disarm and there will be PEACE throughout the world.
        1. +18
          21 July 2017 09: 10
          Quote: victorsh
          But generally disarm

          Leave the battleships, they are cool. Yes
          1. +17
            21 July 2017 10: 10
            In fact, the author quietly leads readers to the need to book complexes wassat
            1. +12
              21 July 2017 10: 11
              Quote: Dagen
              In fact, the author quietly leads readers to the need to book complexes

              And install the GK tower. Yes
      4. +12
        21 July 2017 09: 32
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Aviation can only fight aviation

        Oleg, not the right concept!
        Our tanks can successfully fight with aviation at foreign airfields! And RDD in a preemptive strike !!! Air Force and Air Defense - background troops. Moreover, they must be on duty all the time and control the airspace. KV - space and territory of "sworn friends".
        You just need to wage an aggressive offensive war!
        Preventive strike is our EVERYTHING! And the threat thereof ...
        We are too soft and all-forgiving! Terpili shorter at all times ...
      5. +1
        21 July 2017 19: 49
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        16 SWEET_SIXTEEN ↑  
        Today, 06: 53
        Aviation can only fight aviation


        Oleg, And how much happened in the air battles? laughing
      6. +1
        21 July 2017 21: 11
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Aviation can only fight aviation

        This garbage, all other things being equal, anti-aircraft defense will win, not aviation.
      7. +12
        21 July 2017 23: 23
        Judging by the fact that Kaptsov evaluates the capabilities of single-channel S-75 targets with the number of launchers, the author’s knowledge of the air defense ideology is great.
        42 PU - sounds very impressive! And the fact that there were only 7 divisions and they could fire only 7 targets, even 21 missiles, was nothing.

        Aviation has a bunch of electronic warfare, traps, etc.
        in the case of well-constructed air defense, there are a lot of doublers, and now there are all kinds of Krasukh, Mercury, Leerov, etc. Borisoglebskov creating access restriction zones (as our partners call them A2 / D2)
        Missile or cannon attack - at this moment it is a fat point at the very end of the biography of that crazy pilot who nevertheless dares to break through a properly built air defense.
        As for the above examples, they are all based on the victories of NATO or Israel aviation over the Arabs, for whom military service is only a means of earning, and does not involve the study of materiel, and even more so dedication in the performance of a combat mission. In addition, most of the opponents in Iraq, Libya, Syria, and even in the same Yugoslavia were already seriously "democratized" by injections of dollars and demoralized by "democratic" non-worthy media.
        If there were no “partners” fears for your own skin in Syria now (read the fears about the effectiveness of the air defense that opposes them), Hmeimim and Damascus would have tried it a bit already.
        As to the thesis "aviation must fight aviation," I fully agree.
        But in their own zone, at distant approaches and with jammers who often hang at a distance. And with those in battle formations, ground-based air defense is itself able to cope.
        Not so sad, as Kaptsov writes.
        "... Maybe it’s better about the reactor, about the beloved lunar tractor, because you can’t scare them for a year in a row, they say they fly vile ... They have dogs, they say, ruins ..." (V. Vysotsky)
        Oleg, develop a better topic about the invincibility of battleships.
        They won the air defense ...
      8. +1
        21 July 2017 23: 24
        [quote = SWEET_SIXTEEN]Aviation can only fight aviation
        Yes, no, only Kaptsov can write such a crap, here the Indian even rests
      9. +1
        24 July 2017 21: 25
        Do not judge the reality of air defense under the article of the couch "expert"

        And what is this "expert on battleships and battleships" in air defense "waved" ??? Come on too "expert" in this area?
      10. 0
        26 July 2017 18: 32
        what MiG-31 well, as it were, should not fight with aviation. its task is precisely in terms of providing missile defense.
        Barrier, r-33 and other "nonsense" you know.
      11. 0
        17 March 2018 14: 12
        SAM Pantsir-C1, Pantsir-C2, Pantsir-SM, etc. SAMs successfully fight UAVs (drones) ... The article is completely incorrect and it considers outdated systems. Narm missiles can be easily fought with tactics of using air defense systems and more!
    2. +9
      21 July 2017 07: 13
      If you talk like that, then you can remove all tanks and armored personnel carriers from the battlefield, since they are all destroyed by modern anti-tank weapons. However, no country is in a hurry to destroy its armored forces.
      1. +5
        21 July 2017 07: 15
        Quote: papas-57
        If you talk like that, then you can remove all tanks and armored personnel carriers from the battlefield.

        Tanks were of great importance in all wars.

        Because they are not going to clean
        1. +11
          21 July 2017 11: 27
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          Tanks were of great importance in all wars.
          and did air defense not really matter "in all" wars? well besides Punic laughing
        2. +3
          21 July 2017 13: 08
          In vain in all the conflicts discussed, tanks burned under air strikes for two times.
          salvage tanks !, only aviation!
          1. +8
            21 July 2017 15: 44
            Over the past 90 years, tanks and infantry occupied all cities in all wars, but not aviation at all. Aviation can destroy the city to the ground, but cannot capture it.
            1. +3
              25 July 2017 10: 22
              Shhh, don't tell the author about this.
              I just threw him a topic for a new "sensation"
        3. +2
          21 July 2017 15: 38
          SWEET_SIXTEEN: My advice is to read the comment correctly before answering something.
      2. +13
        21 July 2017 08: 14
        Right. Leave Zumvolt and battleships. And the Age of Mercy will come.
      3. 0
        28 February 2018 02: 32
        However, no country is in a hurry to destroy its armored forces.
        However, Germany almost succeeded. lol hi
    3. +19
      21 July 2017 08: 05
      So Kaptsov! Long time no betrayed. I thought I was gone. But no, the smoking room is alive. Sculpts .... however.
      Quote: nebalagur
      "Katz offers to surrender" ...

      laughing
      1. +1
        21 July 2017 10: 22
        I understood from the first paragraph that this is Kaptsov.
      2. +5
        21 July 2017 11: 57
        Then it’s not “Katz”, but “Kapts offers to surrender”.
      3. 0
        21 July 2017 11: 58
        Then it’s not “Katz”, but “Kapts offers to surrender”.
    4. +6
      21 July 2017 08: 47
      Quote: nebalagur
      Such a long article with a simple meaning: "Katz offers to give up" ...

      I think the author believes that it is necessary to increase purchases for the Air Force due to air defense.
      1. +3
        21 July 2017 15: 26
        Quote: Aron Zaavi
        the author believes that it is necessary to increase purchases for the Air Force due to air defense.

        Yeah, you came from the "service" ... laughing Hinting at lobbying? wink
    5. +2
      21 July 2017 13: 01
      Quote: nebalagur
      Such a long article with a simple meaning: "Katz offers to give up" ...

      ========
      Oh, I beg you - this is not an article, this is a "complete kapets" ............ Well, one wonders what OTHER could be expected from THIS "author" ????? Oh, BROWSING "IN", oh, getting smaller ...........
      1. +10
        21 July 2017 13: 35
        Quote: venik
        Oh, BROWSING "IN", oh, getting smaller ...........

        Oh don't tell me. Kaptsov is from old-timers. Now it’s still rare, and before almost every week it issued “revelations”.
    6. +1
      21 July 2017 13: 39
      Usually they whine in the comments alone, they say there is an S-400 in Syria, but does not bring down Amer’s letaki, which means the air defense is bad / ineffective, and we must urgently give up. The author, however, varied in an entire article, not to cry on the couch, and everything would have passed. crying
    7. +5
      21 July 2017 15: 02
      very long article, and most importantly honest. shit will never defeat the sword. and all of our air defense .. it's like, well, what if. for me only to a solitary intruder. more needs to be developed by the Air Force, ICBMs and SSBNs ... that’s where you need to push budget money.
      1. +3
        21 July 2017 23: 33
        A missile (including an air defense complex) is never a shield, it is also a tolyo sword a little different. And he just perfectly can defeat another sword - airplanes. In all these wars: 1. Ancient air defense against modern at that time aircraft
        2. Generally weak countries against monster countries
        3. An incomprehensible level of training of personnel
        4. The lack of a normal air component in the defenders
        5. In the situation of the Russian Federation, whoever snoops into our territory, powerful air defense + are more or less less powerful fighters + good reb and after the first raid the attacker will have very serious losses.
        A potentially attacking side also understands this, I remember even Obama said about the S-300 (just that !!) in Iran that they will pass these air defenses, but without loss they can pass. Well, then Iran, Russia, nevertheless, militarily at the moment is much stronger.
        1. +1
          22 July 2017 17: 44
          Quote: Serhiodjan
          A missile (including an air defense complex) is never a shield,

          An anti-aircraft missile is precisely a shield. This is a weapon of defense.
          Quote: Serhiodjan
          In all these wars: 1. Ancient air defense against modern at that time aircraft

          The S-300 and S-400 are also older than the currently modern aircraft. So what? This only confirms the fact that ground-based air defense systems themselves are just targets for aviation and cruise missiles.
          Quote: Serhiodjan
          4. The lack of a normal air component in the defenders

          But this is a key factor. Because they are defenders.
          But the best defense is an attack, isn't it?
      2. +4
        22 July 2017 01: 16
        Quote: Atlant-1164
        more needs to be developed by the Air Force, ICBMs and SSBNs ... that’s where you need to push budget money.

        and the mining forces? if you go completely deep, you will track the FIGs, attack through the center of the earth, dead hand + black spade - a killer combination, the abduction of the Pentagon command personnel straight from the bunker
    8. +6
      21 July 2017 15: 40
      I can offer Olezhka Kaptsova to shoot herself, his next reading is as usual replete with "everything is lost!", "America will kill us!" and so forth. Is he with a tumor in his head? I did not read more stupid and sucked-up articles (well, except for the authors from Chubaria). It does not take into account at all, not only the preparedness of the air defense crews, the national characteristics of the armies (especially in the Middle East), but the active escort of aviation by electronic warfare systems (which, incidentally, the defeated armies did not possess or possessed in insignificant numbers).
    9. +3
      22 July 2017 13: 02
      Do you want to be like an ostrich with a muzzle in the sand? I also suspected that all the data about the S-400 or 500 was bullshit. They are only good against solo planes like Powers. And with a massive attack by aircraft, they simply won’t even have time to charge new missiles, even with 100% hits. And their lifespan is 1-2 days of fighting ..
      1. +3
        23 July 2017 17: 57
        Any conclusions can be made on the basis of facts. Where and when in the wars of recent years were used the s-300, especially the s-400? In the war 08-08-08, Ukrainian beeches proved to be very good against our aircraft. And to say that s-300 and s-400 - bullshit ... Well, tell this to the Chinese who are buying them ... They’re stupid people, so you would be their military advisers ... Take what you think ???
      2. +2
        25 July 2017 20: 09
        Quote: kuz363
        And with a massive attack by aircraft, they simply won’t even have time to charge new missiles ...
        ..And their lifespan is 1-2 days of fighting ..
        -A WHAT FOR they charge rockets if on Earth after a day of fighting in the air over the Russian Federation already going NUCLEAR WAR.
        Or do you think that the Commander-in-Chief and Shoigu will sit for a couple and say - "Yeah, the air defense’s position destroyed the air defense! We’ll wait until the last anti-aircraft defense is finished and then we’ve slipped them ... damn Topol, Topol with Mace in the face !!"
    10. +1
      22 July 2017 22: 33
      Katz suggests thinking and not blindly believing experts and the media.
    11. 0
      April 9 2018 12: 17
      There is not even a hint of it. There is a hint of transferring funds to fighter aircraft. It’s worth thinking about.
  2. +13
    21 July 2017 06: 55
    the author stupidly drowns for aviation. Not a gram without understanding air defense ...
    And analytics, such analytics, that it’s worthless
    1. +12
      21 July 2017 08: 06
      The author is a fat troll and demagogue. Its task is to throw in and cause srach.
      1. 0
        21 July 2017 11: 02
        Quote: DrVintorez
        The author is a fat troll and demagogue. Its task is to throw in and cause srach.

        Yeah, the star of this site.
        By the way, mother’s mathematician.
        68 losses (including those shot down in aerial combat).
        In any case, this gives less than one thousandth of a percent of 144 military
      2. +2
        21 July 2017 11: 24
        Quote: DrVintorez
        The author is a fat troll and demagogue. Its task is to throw in and cause srach.
        Note, always successful! wink
        1. 0
          April 9 2018 12: 26
          At least he gives reasons. Unlike some entry-level trolls ...
  3. +12
    21 July 2017 06: 56
    The interaction of air defense systems with aviation cannot be considered, only in the context of a single air defense battery. The attack systems are improving .. And the control systems are the same, there are AWACS systems that increase the effectiveness of anti-aircraft systems. In any case, the defense system does not need to be considered as a one-goal game - this is the way to lose. If airplanes with high-precision weapons fly to the object, then they will suppress the defense, this is only a matter of time. But if after the first raid they will be destroyed on the way back, the jump airfield will receive missiles with a cassette, AWACS will be destroyed by a distant explosive missile .. Then the air defense systems will fight with the surviving aircraft ...
    1. +5
      21 July 2017 07: 00
      Quote: Zaurbek
      The interaction of air defense systems with aviation cannot be viewed only in the context of a single air defense battery.

      The number of 19 - the number of divisions of the air defense system in East Lebanon.

      The 15 divisions of the Kvadrat mobile SAM systems, two divisions of the C-75 and C-125 stationary SAM systems, supplemented by 50 “Shilok”, 17 anti-aircraft artillery batteries and 47 branches of the “Strela-2” MANPADS. The highest density of anti-aircraft weapons ever encountered in military conflicts.
      1. +16
        21 July 2017 07: 07
        You are right ... plus mountains, the absence of AWACS, the use of drones and attacks on previously explored targets. The innovative approach of the Israeli Air Force. Now imagine on the spot the Syrian army, the army of the USSR with the systems Point, Elbrus and so on. AWACS aircraft with air defense system (including aircraft).
        I do not underestimate the power of the IDF ... but how long would the sorties continue after strikes at the airfields?
        1. +6
          21 July 2017 07: 11
          Quote: Zaurbek
          but how long would aviation departures continue after strikes on airfields?

          instead of air defense - counter-strikes on airfields?
          1. +14
            21 July 2017 07: 15
            Not instead of but together. Well, consider another option - a breakthrough of air defense of the Kyrgyz Republic Tomogavk for example. This is a question of the number of missiles ... The guarded object will be destroyed. Those. if you don’t sink the carrier, the air defense system, in the best scenario, will shoot all the missiles and shut up ...
            And if, after the first air defense raid, the attack is repelled, the reconnaissance reveals the carrier and is destroyed, the attack will cease.
            1. +7
              21 July 2017 08: 58
              Here you hit the nail on the head. First of all, it is necessary to destroy the carrier of the Kyrgyz Republic, therefore monitoring their location plays a very important role. Moreover, the Kyrgyz Republic, in particular Tomahawk, is mainly sea-based. And at sea you need to have an adequate ship structure! Today, Russia clearly lacks ships.
              1. +3
                21 July 2017 15: 47
                Quote: Evgeniy667b
                And at sea you need to have an adequate ship structure! Today, Russia clearly lacks ships.

                And the Chinese have anti-ship ballistic missiles ..... it seems to be like ... tongue
              2. 0
                April 9 2018 12: 21
                In general, the conclusion suggests itself: do not wait, but beat first. The first to hit is the one to win.
            2. 0
              April 9 2018 12: 23
              Therefore, the carrier (ship, airfield, aircraft) must be destroyed before they launch a significant number of missiles. The first to beat.
          2. +10
            21 July 2017 07: 28
            I look at your air defense, it’s only directly complexes like s-300/400 and so on, and besides them there is a lot more that you don’t take into account. So worthless to such analytics
            1. 0
              April 9 2018 12: 20
              The article is about application practice, not theory. In theory, everyone wins ...
          3. 0
            April 9 2018 12: 23
            Yes, the adversary does so. The preposition can be found just as it finds.
        2. +1
          26 July 2017 23: 43
          Density of fire weapons without airborne reconnaissance equipment - dead poultices. Even the fence. fire on the sectors need to be opened at the right time, and not just shoot with Shilki and S-60 in white light. And for this you need to find the target. CHP S-75 - is not engaged in intelligence in principle. Shilok radar was most often filmed to increase the base, and even if it was present - search in a narrow sector at short range without the possibility of firing at the target. Well, only if one chance in a million is to turn on and bury oneself in the target and so that the calculation is ready to work out. This and our calculations could be one in ten, and even the Arabs ... Arrow branches - only a visual search with no chance to find a low-speed high-speed target, since when Arrows are brought to a combat position, the target will fly away safely. Arrows are good only with an external control unit - where and when to direct and when to turn on the power to the head. So all your digits about trunk density are about nothing.
        3. 0
          April 9 2018 12: 25
          They would definitely destroy Khmeinim. But the USSR, of course, no.
      2. +9
        21 July 2017 07: 26
        A large number of divisions and an air defense system are two completely different things.
    2. 0
      April 9 2018 12: 18
      This has never happened. And it is not known whether.
  4. +18
    21 July 2017 06: 58
    Another nonsense mixed with a fight against their own windmills. There is nothing to discuss.
  5. +17
    21 July 2017 07: 07
    Well, at least it’s interesting ... The fact that the "bubble" about the "perfection of Russian air defense systems is inflated is immeasurable - this and the" hedgehog "understandably, there is no" prodigy ", it all has its limits, especially when controlled by man .. But after all, the “population” needs to be brainwashed with something to raise their spirits, otherwise daily price observations in stores and utility bills will drive anyone into depresnyak ....
    1. +18
      21 July 2017 07: 57
      No more than a bubble of excellence f-22, f-35, Ajis, etc. etc. But after all, the “population” needs to be brainwashed by something. And then in the US, median income did not increase from, attention, 1979!
      1. +2
        21 July 2017 11: 03
        Quote: dumkopff
        And then in the US, median income did not increase from, attention, 1979!

        Sorry what?
        1. +2
          21 July 2017 11: 11
          Median is the median value in the ranked data order.
          Here, for example, is a link to evidence. Yes, in principle, Paul Krugman (Nobel Laureate in Economics) had similar statements in The Great Unraveling: Losing Our Way in the New Century.
          http://www.rbc.ru/opinions/economics/18/12/2015/5
          673d0179a79472ec4f723f5
          1. +4
            21 July 2017 12: 44
            Quote: dumkopff
            Paul Krugman (Nobel Laureate in Economics)

            I know who it is.
            Quote: dumkopff
            Median is the median value in the ranked data order.

            I know what it is.
            Quote: dumkopff
            For example, a link to evidence

            I do not see evidence. I see opinions. Moreover, in terms of speech turnovers - "Corporations have seriously benefited from these incentive measures, but at the expense of the working population" - the socialist guesses.
            I am not against the socialists. However, when they sit down on their beloved ridge - social justice - they must be treated very carefully. This, incidentally, concerns Krugman.
            In relation to median income, you need to clearly understand this study (I do not see a link to it in the article) and its methodology.
            1. +2
              21 July 2017 12: 53

              From the pictures of the Pew Research Center it follows that 4 percentage points of the lowers and 7 percentage points of the middle clippers and especially appers have bitten off the middle. I would not say that this is a big tragedy.

              By the way, about households 70s vs 2010s. And how was the change in the average household composition (the number of people in the family) taken into account?
    2. +9
      21 July 2017 16: 25
      Quote: Monster_Fat
      Well, well, at least interesting.

      I agree ! I was even surprised that the majority unanimously pounced on Kaptsov to ask a rake. The author “has the right” to speculate on a chosen topic! Regardless of the correctness or incorrectness of his conclusions (arguments), it is unfair to condemn him, if only because many drew attention to the low effectiveness of the air defense of the defending parties in recent armed conflicts. The author just decided not to remain alone with "unanswered-questioned" thoughts, but submit them for discussion. By the way, the inefficiency of air defense in recent conflicts makes me wary of any praise of air defense.
      Quote: Monster_Fat
      "bubble" about "the perfection of Russian air defense systems inflated immensely

      Well, immensely or in moderation, it is now unproven!! Only "practice" can confirm or refute such an opinion!
    3. +1
      21 July 2017 23: 40
      How, how so !!! A bubble about superior American weapons means not inflated? Is it really all and surpasses everything?
      You personally have nothing to fear from Russian air defense; a sofa fat layer will save you. But American pilots are not very happy about the prospect of being hit by "imperfect Russian missiles." Moreover, even Russian jamming stations like the whole throat cross them. It is understandable - a "hedgehog" is in the throat ...
  6. NUR
    +7
    21 July 2017 07: 08
    And whoever said that with a shield you can win a battle, you need a club. All these countries did not have strong aviation and not only against the Western coalition, the forces were obviously not equal
  7. +7
    21 July 2017 07: 13
    Good article. Recently, all these new products (target simulators, PRR, etc.) have already been described in detail here, but no one has yet raised the question of how to actually counteract them (author, now they will start asking you whether to increase armor wassat ).
  8. +6
    21 July 2017 07: 54
    Funny, I met absolutely the same opinion, only about tanks, light armored vehicles, drones, artillery and about a number of other weapons. Starting from the publications of the 80s. How many years the authors have proved the ineffectiveness of a particular tool, in reality, there is a constant improvement of both the means of attack and the means of defense. And by the way, the task of air defense is not to bring down everything that flies. And, in order to force the attackers to withdraw to less suitable positions or completely abandon the attack on a particular target. If at the same time the enemy is defeated, then this is a nice bonus.
  9. +25
    21 July 2017 07: 55
    "Just a fighter took a three-row, it is immediately obvious - a harmonist." I recognized Kaptsov by the first chords. Who else will carry iksnu with such a serious look.
    1. Examples are just tin. In the first three cases. Well, everyone is aware of their fighting qualities.
    In the fourth case (and in the third) - multiple numerical superiority plus technologies ahead of 15-20 years.
    What Oleg didn’t remember about Vietnam? There the air defense pretty frolic.
    2. Somehow it was missed that air defense is, so it and so, a huge complex that includes not only air defense systems. Here, and AWACS aircraft, and air defense aircraft, and a crowd of radars with a variety of characteristics and SAM and ZSU. Complex! Let’s take off the wings of an airplane and say: why doesn’t it fly?
    3. Oh, what wonderful rackets suppress air defense! Nice, sweet. But nothing that the air defense has developed a whole system of countermeasures. And instantaneous movement, and electronic warfare, and many false targets, and what else is there to ask the relevant officers.
    1. +13
      21 July 2017 08: 18
      Above, the comrade has already written. Air defense is not even a complex, but a system. That's when they meet with a real built-in system, and then draw a conclusion. The situation in the 90s. Crazy about the amount of "dough," many began to buy expensive foreign cars. And when they broke, then they scratched their turnips, but what should they do? In various ways, they purchased parts for them at achievable prices, and companies selling used parts flourished. And why? A system for operating foreign cars was not built. So in the article, to acquire a bunch of air defense systems is one thing, and to establish an air defense system is another. And they asked for Vietnam, but what was there?
      Oleg, why did the battleships stay away, why didn’t they support the prodigy of aviation? laughing
      1. +3
        21 July 2017 14: 14
        Quote: Okolotochny
        Above, the comrade has already written. Air defense is not even a complex, but a system. That's when they meet with a real built-in system, and then draw a conclusion.

        Once met. And the system could not stand it - due to the absolute superiority of the enemy in the quality and quantity of air attack weapons.
        When in the first hour of the war the enemy makes a radar of early detection, an air defense control center and a communications center - this is not treated. This can only be prevented in advance - duplication of control and communication lines, mobile radars, peacetime and wartime positions, the schedule of operation of radio-emitting means, etc.
        1. +6
          21 July 2017 16: 04
          Alex, hi . But this does not mean that an air defense system is not needed, but only advanced aviation is needed?
          1. +3
            21 July 2017 16: 42
            Quote: Okolotochny
            Alex, hi . But this does not mean that an air defense system is not needed, but only advanced aviation is needed?

            In no case. It only says that for a big war the air defense system needs to be built in advance with excessive stability, especially in terms of communications and control. Hanging all the functions on a couple of centers in the capital is like death. And it is necessary to carry out a complex of work on masking the system and misleading the enemy (radar frequencies, positions, communications) in peacetime.

            And for the use of advanced aviation, exactly the same system is needed - with a radar, protected and duplicated communications, command and control centers, etc., etc. In offline mode, neither the "raptor" nor the "lightning-2" will not last long.
            1. +1
              21 July 2017 17: 31
              Quote: Alexey RA
              In offline mode, neither the "raptor" nor the "lightning-2" will not last long.

              Sorry?
              And who said that the Raptor and the penguin are separate planes? I mean, for "offline mode"?
              1. +2
                21 July 2017 19: 19
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                Sorry?
                And who said that the Raptor and the penguin are separate planes? I mean, for "offline mode"?

                Well, it is proposed to replace air defense systems with high-performance aviation.
                At the same time, the article gives examples of operations in which the anti-aircraft missile defense system was “turned off” by attacks on the ground components of this system - headquarters. communication centers, radar detection.
                But nothing is said about the system and equally vulnerable components that ensure the use of highly efficient aviation — detection, target designation, communications and control, huge airfields based with weapons depots and fuel and lubricants. It turns out that aviation acts autonomously, moreover, the aircraft emerges from a vacuum, strikes, and recombines. smile
                1. +2
                  22 July 2017 00: 01
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  Well, it is proposed to replace air defense systems with high-performance aviation.

                  I understood the text is much simpler. What doesn’t help against a stronger opponent - they will be brought out first, but against a less strong one - unnecessarily.
                  Perhaps I misunderstood.
    2. +2
      21 July 2017 08: 19
      Quote: dumkopff
      What Oleg didn’t remember about Vietnam?


      From Vietnam, you can also pull on convenient facts if you wish. Operation "Linebacker II", for example, with its unprecedented provision of electronic suppression.
    3. +2
      21 July 2017 11: 21
      Quote: dumkopff
      Oleg didn’t remember the same thing about Vietnam? There air defense pretty frolic

      amers had to land B-52 for a year or so while they were studying REB in this way laughing
      1. +1
        21 July 2017 14: 36
        It is not beneficial for him to recall this. (Kaptsova). Then NATO fought against Yugoslavia. And the country's air defense was not ready for this. EBN then had all friends and especially Glavnyuk amers walker-Clinton. So the result was known in advance.
    4. +1
      23 July 2017 21: 44
      Since Vietnam, air defense has not been effective.
      The author clearly summarized the statistics. In all conflicts, there is always some “but” - then Arabs are bad warriors, then Yugoslavia has old air defense (who is better from the former social bloc? Except for Russia).
      Article plus!
      1. +8
        24 July 2017 09: 31
        Article minus. If you want statistics, please. Lebanon is 82 years old. Israel lost 2 aircraft from the air defense fire, nothing from the Syrian Air Force (more precisely, the Mig-23MF was shot down by a drone)
        Libya 86. Air defense -1 shot down, 1 damaged. Aviation - Nothing Again
        Iraq-91 - I hope you yourself know
        Serbia - Air defense -2 aircraft (possibly 3 with Harrier misunderstandings) Aviation - only losses
        Do you need further?
        And now that the author deliberately did not take into account. Air defense is already influencing the very fact of existence. If during a raid of 100 planes 80 are a support group and attack planes are forced to crawl on criminally small ones and smear at the same time, then this is the merit of air defense. In Libya, misses amounted to about 50%.
        Do you seriously think that a frail air defense of a third-rate country like Iraq or Serbia should be able to repel UIA coalitions led by the USA? Are the requirements too high?
        And I report that in most of the airborne countries for 90 years, air defense (both air defense of the country and air defense of the SD) was much more powerful than that of the Serbs in 99
  10. +9
    21 July 2017 08: 05
    Kaptsov in a new form, specialist in air defense wassat
    PS after reading the headline there was 99% confidence who the author is.
  11. The comment was deleted.
    1. +2
      21 July 2017 11: 13
      Earlier, Kaptsov’s articles, with a clear polemic orientation, had a twist (some cofferdams of a zumvolt are worth it! laughing ), accompanied by rare illustrations, but that was before lol
  12. +8
    21 July 2017 08: 45
    As an author, Kaptsov begins to like me. Of course, there is some grotesque in the articles, but nevertheless, and maybe just because of him, the articles are becoming urgent. After all, the hedgehog is clear that the tactics of using our air defense are outdated. This can be confirmed by numerous publications on this site in the "news" section, reporting that, for example, the MiG31 link intercepted a high-altitude high-speed target ...., or a division successfully shot down 6 targets on a spear .... And what will happen if the goals are low and very group?
    Will we be able to intercept 100 tomahawks? This mystery is great)))
    1. +7
      21 July 2017 10: 02
      Quote: tchoni
      Will we be able to intercept 100 tomahawks?

      The only country that can launch 100 KR at a time is known to you.
      Counterquestion. And what will fly back?
      1. +8
        21 July 2017 10: 48
        Quote: Ramzai
        The only country that can launch 100 KR at a time is known to you.

        At least five countries, except Russia, have such opportunities. This time. And the list is actively expanding, these are two.
        Quote: Ramzai
        Counter question. And what will fly back?

        Like what? A note of protest with an expression of "deep concern." Russia is not Israel.
        1. +1
          21 July 2017 11: 17
          Quote: tchoni
          At least five countries, except Russia, have such opportunities. This time. And the list is actively expanding, these are two.

          Fine! And what does that change?
          None of your five countries alone can decide on such a thing, for 100 KR is nothing.
          Quote: tchoni
          Like what? A note of protest with an expression of "deep concern." Russia is not Israel.

          Blessed is he who believes.
          1. +1
            21 July 2017 12: 27
            Tell me, do you see a big difference between the destruction of an aircraft in the air and on the ground?
            1. +1
              21 July 2017 13: 08
              Quote: tchoni
              Tell me, do you see a big difference between the destruction of an aircraft in the air and on the ground?

              I see.
              1. 0
                21 July 2017 15: 21
                and what will it be from a political point of view ?-)
          2. +1
            25 July 2017 20: 20
            Quote: Ramzai
            None of your five countries alone can decide on such a thing, for 100 KR is nothing.
            - the attack in Syria showed that it was nothing at all about the snuffled airfield ... The airfield, in principle, was not ready for combat readiness, there were damage, fuel and lubricants burned out, but these are all easily eliminated consequences. The concrete was repaired in a day ...
            1. 0
              27 July 2017 10: 19
              Quote: your1970
              Quote: Ramzai
              None of your five countries alone can decide on such a thing, for 100 KR is nothing.
              - the attack in Syria showed that it was nothing at all about the snuffled airfield ... The airfield, in principle, was not ready for combat readiness, there were damage, fuel and lubricants burned out, but these are all easily eliminated consequences. The concrete was repaired in a day ...

              About that and speech! To inflict some serious damage, you need to launch not 100, but much more. It will take more than one month to prepare such a strike.
    2. 0
      21 July 2017 11: 16
      Quote: tchoni
      After all, a hedgehog is clear that the tactics of our air defense are out of date. This can be confirmed by numerous publications on this site in the "news" section, reporting that, for example MiG31 link intercepted a high-speed high-speed target.
      is one related to the other somehow? smile
      1. +1
        21 July 2017 12: 28
        Directly .... directly and inextricably
    3. 0
      21 July 2017 14: 40
      For group purposes, use an amy rocket
      1. 0
        21 July 2017 15: 19
        For group purposes, the XNUMXth complex can only use a missile with a special military unit. Colloquially vigorous bonbu)
        1. +3
          21 July 2017 23: 59
          For a group of 5,6,12 aircraft, no one will use Special Ammunition. It is also necessary to deliver it to the position, which is not so fast and not so simple. Although, what will happen during the threatened period, one Buddha knows. But if it comes to thinking about special warheads, then I assure you, not only that the electronic warfare group will work out in full and, most likely, the group will refuse to fulfill the knowledge base. And if he doesn’t refuse and, for example, shoots himself with Axes, then after the group will fly something proudly more significant. And 300ki will deal with Axes. As far as possible. And not only them.
          Are the chefs of that group ready to accept our answer? Maybe that's why the threatened period has not yet come?
  13. +15
    21 July 2017 08: 46
    about the number of shot down over Serbia, the author of the article has no idea - the planes that got their shots on the territory of this small country REDCOIDLY fell to the land here. for example, one Belgian 16, downstream of the Danube from the Novog Sad, went to the bottom of the moss. After the coup of 2000, German barges stood on that spot for a long time and mined from the bottom of the lumines. and besides, the author did not indicate the ratio of the number of NATO airplanes to one outdated division of Serbia. from Kosovo A-10 barely to Macedonia before limping in May 99-after decommissioned under the net. In short, the author of the article in air defense systems has less knowledge than I about a healthy lifestyle
  14. +15
    21 July 2017 08: 47
    The article is interesting, but I would like to know the author’s opinion about the conflict in the Donbass - VSN, with their outdated and very limited air defense systems, I managed to bring down only according to the official data for 4 months (May-August 2014) - 5 Su-25, 2 MiG-29, 1 Su-24, 1 Il-76, 1 An-26, 1 An-30 (11 aircraft) and 5 Mi-8, 5 Mi-24 (10 pcs) ...
    1. +3
      21 July 2017 14: 29
      and it will be Kaptsovschina on the contrary. killed air forces against more or less organized air defenses, albeit very limited. it is impossible to bring as arguments the variation of beating strong weak.
    2. +5
      22 July 2017 00: 07
      Do not wake a dare :-)
      You don’t see that only Russian (by origin) aircraft were shot down. Now you will quickly be explained that our aviation is even worse than our air defense. Therefore, it remained unfinished without underdevelopment.
      But the "striped wizards" will fly in ... and not much will seem to us.
      But where are we going to bury them all?
  15. +11
    21 July 2017 08: 50
    In Western armies, air defense systems receive an order of magnitude less attention,

    According to the author’s logic, the West does not pay attention to air defense because of its low efficiency, and maybe because the West is an aggressor and always acts according to the principle "the best defense is an attack", for which air defense means are not needed, aviation is needed, naturally they and develop, come up with various tricky means and attack strategies.
    Then the author notes that various missiles and gliding bombs have been greatly developed, allowing the planes to not enter the air defense coverage area and immediately claims that with attacking, such remote striking means, enemy planes, aviation is more efficiently opposed, which means that defensive aircraft must go to territory of a foreign state at the frontier of interception of enemy aircraft. Or maybe then immediately hit the airfields? I have always said that the best mobile air defense system in the world is Topol-M. But then we will become aggressors. In general, it seems that the author has done a lot of crap, and most importantly forgot or mixed up what for all the same, means of defense and, in particular, air defense are necessary. Air defense systems are not a panacea for misfortunes and have never been such, they cannot win a war at all, air defense is only a means to temporarily protect and reduce the suddenness of aggression, just a shield, until real means of retaliation are earned and the mace is used. Well, Iraq and Yugoslavia were rolled out because they didn’t have a comparable club or people who knew how to own it, the army painted on paper could not fight.
    1. +5
      21 July 2017 10: 57
      Quote: SPACE
      I always said that the best mobile air defense system in the world is Topol-M

      Excellent system) Only using it is unlikely to be enough for us.
  16. +3
    21 July 2017 09: 08
    I propose to consider the Indo-Pakistan conflict 72g as a standard for extolling / belittling one or another weapon.
    The prior art is equal in both countries, both states are young and motivated. None of the states has an overwhelming technological advantage.
  17. +4
    21 July 2017 09: 40
    Everything is scorched from the “Kalash” too much in vain, and so that at least one bullet does not find its purpose it’s not enough that five zinc is enough (I exaggerate, of course, but in the east they fight just like that, just look at random they shoot over the parapet and into the loopholes ) From which, tram-para-ram !, we conclude that all modifications of the AK are a dull city and useless weapons.
    The meaning of the article considers only two weaknesses of air defense - the restriction on the radio horizon and the presence of various countermeasures. Than this limitation and countermeasures will be answered by the air defense itself there is not a hint.
    Perhaps the author will want to get better in the continuation of the means of protection from various "charms", network centric, early warning systems, the fight against small targets, etc., for example.
    1. +1
      21 July 2017 10: 19
      Quote: g1washntwn
      Perhaps the author will want to get better in the continuation of the means of protection from various "charms", network centric, early warning systems, the fight against small targets, etc., for example.

      What for? The main thing is to write that all our air defense systems are bullshit and, if desired, are destroyed within an hour.
      But look how many comments! She is so popular)))
      1. +8
        21 July 2017 10: 33
        About that, if quietly and sneaking, then the civilian sledgehammer will replay the sniper rifle.
    2. +2
      21 July 2017 12: 42
      5 Zinc? Do not make me laugh. Amers in Afghanistan have 250000 cartridges for one killed barmaley.
  18. +2
    21 July 2017 09: 54
    In the first paragraphs, it became clear who the author was. Rewind down, checked, made sure.
  19. +2
    21 July 2017 09: 55
    Something like that has been spinning in my head for a long time.
  20. +5
    21 July 2017 10: 07
    Do Jews bother any surprises from their neighbors? For some reason they don’t even think of tying it up with the development of air defense. Apparently, it helps.
    1. +2
      21 July 2017 11: 18
      Quote: Oznob
      Do Jews bother any surprises from their neighbors? For some reason they don’t even think of tying it up with the development of air defense. Apparently, it helps.

      even the "city" successfully felled with an "iron dome"!
      1. +1
        21 July 2017 12: 40
        I also read that the United States at the first global Tomahawk attack on Iraq screwed up. They were beaten by many MANPADS. The posts with the calculations were placed often, thinned the flock. (For what I bought, for that I am selling it. I was not particularly interested in “Storm in a Glass”.)
        1. ZVO
          0
          22 July 2017 12: 28
          Quote: Oznob
          I also read that the United States at the first global Tomahawk attack on Iraq screwed up. They were beaten by many MANPADS. The posts with the calculations were placed often, thinned the flock. (For what I bought, for that I am selling it. I was not particularly interested in “Storm in a Glass”.)


          Shot down no more than 2 dozen KR.
          And then, only after someone bothered to analyze (or rather prompted from the outside) the messages of the local dekhan and revealed some reference points for self-correction of the flight regime of the Kyrgyz Republic.
          A week after the first blows.
          So everything especially important was already destroyed.
      2. 0
        22 July 2017 00: 18
        What is easier - to fill up with a rocket for 200 thousand one non-maneuvering blank flying along a quasi-ballistic trajectory, without interference. And by the way, worth 20 thousand. That’s valor. Now, if three or four packages of hail released by the battery were flunked, it would be an achievement. But alas, not capable, sir. And the task is not set like that.
        1. 0
          22 July 2017 00: 36
          Quote: Vlad.by
          Now, if three or four packages of hailstones fired by a battery were flunked, it would be an achievement

          Achievement - that no city will have time to turn around, you know.
  21. +2
    21 July 2017 10: 13
    The task of our air defense is not to destroy everything that flies in our direction, but to reduce the loss of strategic nuclear forces in the first strike. And then ... silence is grave.
  22. +5
    21 July 2017 10: 42
    It’s worth the C-400 at the base with missiles at 60 km, because they were put due to agreements, now, perhaps, already at max. range. Somewhere over 400 km they bombed something. C-400 is to blame, by the way, there are even more fighters there, to the point?

    But the "shell" all garbage like balloon-mines and micro-drones knocked down. The destruction of the drone, by the way, was even specifically filmed, so you should not scare the hedgehog with your bare ass. Large ammunition flying at a speed of several hundred meters, or drones with bombs (and they have already proved their danger in Iraq), is quite a feasible goal for modern MZA control systems.

    The reason is a low percentage of high-precision weapons. Armed with “cast iron”, the Israeli “Mirage” and “Phantoms” were forced to “shove in the forehead” on anti-aircraft missiles, for which they paid.


    Yes Yes. The cast iron is to blame. Moreover, in the Vietnam era, there were no mechanisms to protect radars from anti-radar missiles, but there were missiles.

    The answer is obvious, decides the quantity and quality. As in the same Syria, all the Syrian Air Force divided by zero very quickly, but to shoot down Su-25 or even helicopters, which fell in dozens in Afghanistan, was simply impossible.

    Well and yes:

    Operation Medvedka-19, 1982 year


    Open the same wiki:

    The radar support group included the E-2C Hawkeye early warning radar aircraft, which controlled the activity of the Syrian Air Force. Equipped for electronic warfare, the Boeing-707, Sikorsky CH-53 Sea Stallion helicopters and IAI-202 Arava aircraft listened to the Syrian air force and air defense radio networks and put passive and active interference. So, an hour before the strike, they began staging passive electronic interference on the 150 — 200 km front; in 12 minutes - intense interference with communication systems and air defense control systems; in 5 — 7 minutes — active interferences of high power, which suppressed enemy radar reconnaissance equipment. The operation also used dozens of false Tactical Air-Launched Decoy targets to create a full-size airplane mark on the radar screen.

    That is, before the Arabs, they were engaged in openly hostile actions for up to an hour. In principle, there was no surprise.

    7 — 11 On June 1982, a series of air battles broke out in the sky over Lebanon between the combat aircraft of the Syrian and Israeli air forces. On both sides about 350 aircraft participated in them. According to the estimates of the participants in the events, in separate fragments of the battles, 120 — 200 combat vehicles participated simultaneously. In total, the Syrian Air Force during this time, according to various estimates, lost the 78 — 82 of the MiG-21, MiG-23 and Su-22 aircraft. Israelis had no casualties

    Well, it’s clear that the losses are hidden, only from the fact that somewhere the 1-2 F-15 may have gone wrong, the fact of defeat is not canceled. Aviation did not have any opposition either.

    Operation “Canyon Eldorado”, 1986 year


    I wonder where was the air defense in this case?

    Kaptsov, in general, in principle, does not understand the essence of the problem, especially when using different "squares".

    The first and most important enemy of the air defense system is the square, it is also the enemy of air defense. If you take the same Tripoli, then the area of ​​the city is 400 km, military facilities, but outside the city. SAMs with a range of 10, or even 20-30 km here, in principle, do not cover anything. And they should not, their task is to protect extremely point objects. Even the C-400 with missiles at max. the available range (200 km) in principle did not reach any Shairat, as well as to Damascus.

    In principle, there could not have been any significant air defense density there, especially in peacetime. After all, American fascism did not make any claims, it just flew in one time, bombed something there. And it was the safest place for planes in the city. At the first strike, and the freedom to choose the direction of impact, the F-111 pack calmly passed to where there were not too many smeared air defense systems.

    Another question is that, apparently, the sirens howled already when the bombers were in the target area. What would have ended in such conditions, an attempt to protect with the help of aviation, which has a maximum on-duty link, which will take off on alarm in a few minutes. And in protected areas it can fly in 10-20 minutes.

    That is, all air defense on planes is fundamentally based on the fact that the enemy will be detected, at least in a few minutes. At least they can shoot immediately and in itself their presence requires the allocation of forces to suppress them.

    The warning about the air attack is still built on ground-based radars. Missed, it doesn’t matter what you have there, and even no ASKs are needed.

    And yes, before WWII, a tank, as a combat vehicle, almost lost its significance, because it was genocidal by small-caliber cannons at a terrible speed. There were T-34, KV-1, Pz-IV and other and all kinds of 30-45 mm guns with a penny price, and in a round fire they were powerless against such a threat, 3 `` the same gun without a tractor or a pair of horses, you can’t deploy, and as soon as the tanks groped a loophole to bypass the artillery, it was possible to crush at least the tracks.

    And then, in the 70 tanks, they were genocidal by ATGMs. But there were all sorts of protective equipment and the tank is not even guaranteed to be taken in front of an ATGM now.

    In the Western armies, air defense systems receive an order of magnitude less attention; the same “Patriots” are never considered the main means of protecting airspace.


    I would like to remind you that it’s not the bombers who fly to the Americans, it’s they bombing everyone with an overwhelming numerical superiority. They just have no one to shoot down.
    1. 0
      21 July 2017 14: 32
      Quote: EvilLion
      I would like to remind you that it’s not the bombers who fly to the Americans, it’s they bombing everyone with an overwhelming numerical superiority. They just have no one to shoot down.

      whom they need to bring down - against those they are trying to create - ABM.
  23. exo
    0
    21 July 2017 12: 09
    More than controversial article. In Syria, I think they were just scared to get in touch with the USA. The real strength of our air defense can only be verified by a large-scale conflict. Which, I really would not want to.
    1. +1
      21 July 2017 21: 11
      Also just scared)))
  24. +5
    21 July 2017 12: 38
    Probably the author is not aware that air defense is most effective in multi-layered construction (C 300 (400), Beech, TOR or Shell). With this construction of defense, approximately 160 enemy attacking targets are destroyed, this time. Modern radars are not one station (which is destroyed by PRR), but the whole system (including satellites and planes) that forms a single information radio-electronic field, these are two. Thirdly, single radars have long been operating in a pulsed multi-channel mode and destroying their PRRs is not as simple as described. Fourth, attacking objects protected by multi-layered air defense, as a rule, is simply not economically feasible in view of large losses. Fifthly, the drone attack is very effectively neutralized by electronic warfare (since they depend very much on communication with the controller). While all to vskidku
    1. ZVO
      +1
      22 July 2017 12: 39
      Quote: vvvjak
      Fifthly, the drone attack is very effectively neutralized by electronic warfare (since they depend very much on communication with the controller). While all to vskidku

      Now try to re-study the materiel and understand that drones have already appeared. who do not need constant communication with the dispatcher.
      That drones with a collective mind have already appeared.
      That drones have already appeared, with almost 100% selection of ground targets. which easily separate a civilian truck from a mobile KShP ...
      1. 0
        23 July 2017 15: 59
        For someone who does not understand the issue, everything is always easy.
        1. ZVO
          0
          24 July 2017 21: 21
          Quote: EvilLion
          For someone who does not understand the issue, everything is always easy.


          but to someone who he believes understands. it is worth learning Israeli documents one or two years ago about a self-governing swarm of drones. having an orientation against air defense.
          And about that. how he does selection of goals. Perfectly separates.
  25. +3
    21 July 2017 12: 52
    "Do not shoot the pianist; he plays as he can!" (WITH)
    For that, everyone cheered up from the article. fellow laughing
  26. +2
    21 July 2017 13: 05
    would put dislike yes it is impossible
  27. +1
    21 July 2017 13: 12
    A weak to drive Syria A-50? And to develop a viewing system on a balloon? From a height of 5 km he will see everything and everyone. So maybe you just need to turn on your head and stop stealing? What about Koptsov? laughing tongue wassat
    1. +2
      21 July 2017 15: 25
      In Syria there is A-50. And balloons. At our base, not the devil knows where. So do not grind nonsense, you are our antivirus.
  28. +3
    21 July 2017 13: 13
    Tell us about “Useless Air Defense” for Ukrainian pilots shot down in the Donbass! .. From April to August 2014 or even to July 11 aircraft were shot down according to confirmed data, of which five or six were Su-25 attack aircraft, one Su-24 reconnaissance bomber 29M (MR), two MiG-10s. Helicopters stuffed about the same. We used mobile short-range air defense systems Strela-10, Osa, MANPADS, as well as automatic anti-aircraft guns and heavy machine guns. Installation "Arrow-XNUMX" with marks on two shot down saw personally. Sincerely.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  29. +2
    21 July 2017 13: 15
    In the words of the great classic - "the article is large, capacious, lumpy!" In short, a lot and nothing. So even a janitor can write, a broomstick is a great weapon and nothing else is needed, it sweeps well! Street cleaning machines are not needed - there are wipers! Vacuum cleaners in the apartment also have no need for a whisk. And the whole topic is closed!
    1. 0
      21 July 2017 14: 59
      I support!
    2. +1
      21 July 2017 21: 10
      Well, you know, the author made arguments, but in this comment I did not see any counterarguments. You know, you can look at the janitor from the side and say: Why is it difficult to wave a broom? But if you yourself try to maintain cleanliness in a given area - and the arm / leg / back hurts, it's not so simple
      1. +1
        22 July 2017 10: 51
        Do you want counterarguments? In fact, they were very much in previous posts.
        Indeed, in the same way, one can write about aviation using the same examples (Syria, Iraq, Serbia).
        1. 0
          22 July 2017 18: 47
          Yes, but there the aircraft acted freely, as in the war with Georgia.
  30. +1
    21 July 2017 13: 23
    Well, if, in the author’s opinion, our air defense systems in Syria are not so effective, then we should recall the US strike on the Shairat base, out of 59 Tomahawks, only 23 reached the target, the question is, where did the remaining 36 missiles go, did they fall at the request of the US military or did our air defense systems help them fall ?!
    1. 0
      April 10 2018 13: 15
      so then they all flew all 59 just landed a little earlier and no one bothered them
  31. +2
    21 July 2017 13: 38
    It is funny that the article on the weakening and inefficiency of air defense systems does not cite a single case of confrontation between air defense systems and aircraft of the same generation in real combat conditions.
    Up to Syria, all the cases described are the "take-out" of obsolete air defense systems by modern aviation. Consider contemporaries F-15 and F-16 the same S-75, remembering still corn, or "Cuba" development of the early 60's - this must be a big optimist.

    As for the results of the confrontation in Syria, in the absence of a clear and clear launch order (preferably in writing), talking about the effectiveness or inefficiency of non-firing air defense systems is somehow strange.
    1. 0
      21 July 2017 14: 01
      And most importantly - relying on exactly the same examples (Syria, Libya, Iraq, Yugoslavia), you can write exactly the same article about the weakening and inefficiency of fighter aircraft. smile
      1. +1
        22 July 2017 10: 52
        Alexey RA
        Sorry, did not notice your post. Received word for word
    2. +1
      23 July 2017 21: 09
      I agree, the article gives examples of the non-effectiveness of air defense, when the forces of the parties were not equal, or special cases. But the author does not consider the Vietnam, Soviet-Israeli war of 1970, the Arab-Israeli war of 1972, the Indo-Pakistani and Iraqi-Iranian wars, which prove the effectiveness of adequate air defense.
  32. +3
    21 July 2017 13: 39
    Why should the author write this nonsense? For starters, I at least got to know how the airborne forces work. (Air defense has been abolished long ago). He probably thinks that the fighters themselves find the target and shoot themselves. It is clear that this "expert" is working on the order of the liberals. this nonsense.
    1. +1
      21 July 2017 21: 06
      Well, you know, the author gave arguments, but in this comment I did not see them (arguments).
      1. 0
        16 January 2018 13: 44
        Not the "author", but the "scribbler". Well, the arguments against his yellow writings are full of other comments, so there will be no sense in repeating them.
  33. 0
    21 July 2017 13: 42
    Quote: trenkkvaz
    Quote: Hammer 75
    As a person related to air defense, I’ll explain local conflicts under the analysis of integrated air defense systems (like the Russian Federation or the People’s Republic of China), it’s stupid to summarize, I explain why, the Russian Federation has the ability to track the take-off of airplanes from airfields located in the United States (moreover, as large groups, and solitary), I’m silent about Europe in general, the first attempt to strike at these means leads to a retaliatory nuclear strike!

    And why then do we need these expensive air defense systems if we respond with nuclear weapons in any attack on them? )))
    After all, it turns out that with any attack in our country, we will respond with nuclear weapons.


    Let me explain.

    In the event of an air attack by the enemy, besides air defense, the so-called "otvetka" and, preferably, a thermonuclear strike on the enemy.
    The article is correct and should lead specialists to certain conclusions.
    1. 0
      21 July 2017 21: 06
      Namely, the fact that air defense can only gain time a little (while it is being destroyed), and during this time it is necessary to destroy something without which aviation cannot work (and not airplanes).
  34. The comment was deleted.
    1. 0
      21 July 2017 15: 00
      Agent of influence!
  35. +2
    21 July 2017 14: 58
    Quote: Hammer 75
    It would be better to understand with these examples how the lack of an integrated air defense system in the country allows Western jackals to bomb civilians with impunity!

    -----------------------------
    We got a little excited with Iraq. The operation plan of the Iraqi air defense system was successfully purchased by the Americans, key components were disabled, the rest of the infrastructure remained stupidly bombed. It is not so simple with the Yugoslavs either, the Serbs lost primarily the information war. They were accused of all sins and bombed, the same Milosevic was not Tito's determination. But the Yugoslavs drove the Germans on their territory as they wanted in due time.
  36. +1
    21 July 2017 15: 29
    The author cites the disastrous results of the air defense as a result of poor training of staff (the more modern the complex, the more difficult it is to prepare, the same in aviation).
    But my opinion is that the preparation of service staff for modern air defense systems is at an unacceptably low level, hence the results.
    Participant in the development of the S-300 system Sulimov V.S.
    1. +2
      21 July 2017 15: 38
      Complex C 400 works fully automatically. So also by.
      1. 0
        22 July 2017 00: 37
        Fully in the machine does not work even Shell-S, Colleague. And in S-400, the processes of searching and taking for escort are automated. The decision to launch is the prerogative of the commander, although it can be automatic. But in case of a good raid, the air defense missile system will instantly be left without ammunition.
        So, the machine gun is good, but the commander decides how to kill distant targets. But the system does not respond to neighbors, for this there is a Carapace. Here is such a layered air defense
  37. +2
    21 July 2017 15: 30
    Regarding the inefficiency of air defense
    And let's remember the loss of our aircraft in the war with Georgia ?!
  38. 0
    21 July 2017 16: 25
    send Kaptsov, so the fleet must be made up of battleships of the sample of the beginning of the 20th century, and the air defense should be removed! Hmm, more stupidity and not come up with. it seems that this “expert” is sitting on liberal contentment) I’m even afraid to imagine when he gets to the analysis of the soldier’s outfit, he’ll probably choose the bow and arrows together with the shield as an ideal. to be honest, I used to always skip to the end of the text to see authorship, this “creator” taught me to this, but damn it, I relaxed and let’s read it. I recommend the author to hammer on the mess of "web paper" =), and not to write nonsense based on the curve of the "analysis" of Wikipedia.
    1. 0
      21 July 2017 21: 03
      Well, you know, the author gave arguments, but in this comment I did not see them (arguments).
      1. +4
        22 July 2017 14: 25
        I welcome, "author" - because based on your comments, well, the conclusion suggests itself that you are Oleg Kaptsov =). Although in fairness, it’s worth noting that I don’t know exactly who you are, that’s why I will call you Nick-NordOst16. What arguments do you want? it seems that there was already more than enough reasoning given, repeating the ones with which I agree does not see the point, I just join them. To be honest, it’s very funny to watch a person like Kaptsov consider himself smarter than all analysts, design bureaus, ministries, departments ... His articles are saturated with the spirit of pretentiousness and pardonlessness, in addition to infantile militarism and analytical snobbery, the impression is that this "creator" decided to impress the public with an unprecedented pathos of criticism manifested in epithets, images and maxims (I don’t remember exactly, but I’ve met , if I confuse with other authors, then sorry, there is no time to search and re-read). you need to be more modest, especially when you simply state your IMHO, and the wrong one. or "author" claims to be, a priori, the ultimate truth? the designers and heads of corporations speak more modestly, and here is Kaptsov the stronghold of the dreams and hopes of the Russian defense industry, where without his weighty, critical and proud opinion? all the same, fools and deers around do not see the obvious, he (Oleg) alone knows all the details of TOTAL as regards weapons: military operations, technical characteristics of products and what is still under the stamp, etc. Sorry, but people-developers of life spend on studying and analyzing competencies in their area and do not always achieve the desired results in the process of work, and then a home-grown "expert" appeared who jumps from the fleet to air defense, criticizing everyone and everything, while giving out senile ideas. this is disrespect for the school of engineers, designers, workers ... sorry, but I have only one definition for the "works" of this "expert" - it is narcissism against the background of mental vysery. I apologize if I offended.
  39. 0
    21 July 2017 17: 49
    But there is a solution: you need to see under the horizon and have an air defense system of the last frontier, which can effectively shoot down both planning bombs and high-speed and small-sized missiles. There is nothing better than Torah-M2 and Carapace-C2 to solve the last problem, except for electronic warfare. True, such complexes need to be decent. And the creation of a continuous all-height radar field is solved in several ways. And the simplest one is the passive Casta-2E2 (or a more modern version) and ZGRLS Sunflower for more than 450 km around. It's minimum. For "complete stuffing" we need ZGRLS Container (2800 km) and Voronezh-VP with a gadget (more than 3000 km), as well as SAM with a range of more than 400 km, to prevent the possibility of firing off aviation without getting into the air defense zone. And such missiles are available, right up to 1500 km ... Well, or will be soon. The “over the whole of Europe flight time, day, week, year” regime is quite feasible.
    1. 0
      21 July 2017 21: 02
      Usually zgrls have problems in accuracy. And usually not air defense turned out to be too strong, but few used cruise missiles, drones, false targets, etc.
      1. 0
        21 July 2017 22: 15
        The fact of the matter is that the new types of ZGRLS are not the old ones. These, new, on new principles, and can give target designation. And this is a new quality. If a single all-altitude radar field is created, which will not be breached in the first critical minutes, and the “breakouts” will quickly be “darned”, then the anti-aircraft gunners will land all aircraft, create closed access zones. The breakthrough of the Kyrgyz Republic in Syria during the strike on Shairat is due to the fact that the missiles bypassed our zones, because there was no continuous radar field. And the Israelis launch their missiles at targets on the territory of Syria, most often without entering its airspace, and Syrian air defense systems cannot respond.
        1. 0
          22 July 2017 01: 24
          Unfortunately, open sources do not indicate the characteristics of such radars. And yes, by the way, but aren't the stationary installations?
      2. 0
        22 July 2017 00: 43
        ZGRLS does not need meter accuracy. It is necessary to determine the fact of the presence of a target and to provide a command center for accurate radar guidance of air defense systems or aviation. It is possible for the launch of missiles with AFAR that the accuracy of the ZG stations will be sufficient, but this is already a lot of money. It is nevertheless necessary to determine the type of target and the need for shelling it. What if there is a Boeing with the Dutch?
        1. +1
          22 July 2017 01: 25
          oh, well, I don’t know, to grope for cr, which itself is quite compact, and is often made of materials that reduce its EPR. I do not know
        2. +1
          22 July 2017 07: 34
          A Boeing with the Dutch had a transponder saying that it was a civilian ship and which one. They are determined by any radar. For the most part, such determinants are not present only on the Su-25 and MANPADS, which for the most part are also without radar.
  40. +2
    21 July 2017 19: 04
    And I remember Vietnam when the air defense landed a huge number of planes and helicopters.
    Maybe the point is not in the effectiveness of air defense, but in training and stability of calculations?
  41. A.
    +2
    21 July 2017 19: 24
    It is clear that the article is about air defense. But as long as the metastases of the Masonic infection spread around the world, the center of which nests in Washington, there will always be an arms race to deplete us. If you do not drive the aspen stake of nuclear Poplar into this nesting site of Anglo-Zionism, the rattling of this NATO gangrene on the body of the earth will not stop. Hitler found himself an adventure in the back seat and these will not calm down until they plunge the world into a nuclear catastrophe. Well, they will overcome air defense, and they will get a nuclear apocalypse.
  42. +2
    21 July 2017 19: 38
    In my opinion, Oleg with an air defense assessment has one, but a systemic problem. It is impossible to evaluate the class of weapons on the basis of lost wars, which could not but be lost. Serbia and Iraq were subjected to massive attacks by the armies, to which they could not be prepared by definition. Both countries had, at best, armies of local conflict, and were attacked by armies of global conflict, armies whose strength and technical equipment were designed for a war with the USSR and the Warsaw Pact. No air defense could fix the monstrous superiority of the US army over Iraq. Iraq’s air defense has never been built on the confrontation of the XNUMXth air group, supplemented by missile attacks by hundreds of missiles.
  43. +2
    21 July 2017 20: 53
    What the hell am I just reading ?!
  44. 0
    21 July 2017 21: 02
    I will bring my 5 cents.
    1) Do you know that before you the same thoughts occurred to the Soviet military commanders before the start of World War II? Only there the situation was even worse: there are no missiles, air defense machine guns, “covers, but does not protect,” guns are needed for the land explorers, etc. They decided that the role of air defense will be played by aviation. Remember how it ended? Those aircraft that were not destroyed in the early days of the war stupidly exhausted their resources, barraging over the objects under cover. As a result, the troops were left without any cover at all, they were stormed without any interference.
    2) Do not worry about any anti-radar crap: there are special means against it (look for the word "Newspaper").
    3) Did it ever occur to you that we simply cannot build so many airplanes to realize all the air defense tasks at the expense of them? Industry does not allow (and expanding it is problematic). And the operation of such a system will be very expensive. This is NATO’s same planes (F-16, for example) that can be used both as attack and fighter jets: their opponent is Russia or China maximum. And our enemy is NATO, they have only F-22s more than ours Su-30SM (they will certainly hit a weaker plane and will not choke). Yes, and with the standby mode of the problem - constantly on duty in the air is expensive and difficult, otherwise you may not have time, even if the pilot is on duty in the cockpit.
  45. +1
    21 July 2017 22: 00
    Russian air defense forces are the most stupid air defense forces in the world: they are armed with anti-aircraft missiles with a range of 300 and 400 km, while their radars see targets no further than 40-50 km. These long-range, useless missiles also cost about a hundred million rubles apiece, i.e. much more expensive than their main purpose - a cruise missile.

    The Russian air defense forces are absent as a class:
    - A key element of a modern air defense system - AWACS aircraft;
    - noise-tolerant radars and RGSN anti-aircraft missiles with AFAR;
    - short-range anti-aircraft missiles for self-defense of air defense systems and air defense radars.

    Therefore, in the event of a conflict, the Russian air defense forces will once again mess up - as it was in the 1983 year in Kamchatka (a four-engine aircraft flew over the base of strategic nuclear submarines), in the 1987 year in Moscow (a light-engine plane landed with impunity in the city center) and in the 2017 year in Syria (dozens of cruise missiles with impunity destroyed the allied air base of Russia).

    Domestic air defense troops are a black hole where budget financing flies (due to the fault of the command of the air defense forces).
    1. +1
      22 July 2017 01: 02
      Where did you buy grass?
      Missing as a class A50? Thor, Carapace, Wasp, Sagittarius, Arrows, Needles, Radar I will not even list, ink is not enough. There is no Afar on Zur, but they will. Although, for our air defense over-the-horizon missiles with AFAR are more exotic. Whom will she shoot down in the first minutes - passenger Boeing or F-35? Over the horizon, you can’t define it very much. And when you start a lot of kneading a lot of AFAR over the horizon you will not let - you won’t know what is beyond the horizon. Air defense is like a border guard, it won’t win the war, the main thing is to play the alarm on time and to meet with dignity, so that the second echelons can jump into the trenches and have shells driven into the breech.
      Above, they correctly wrote - the best missiles - the Topol, Yars, Voevoda and other Sarmatians missiles.
      There you and "AFAR" and special warheads and pointing the squirrel in the eye so as not to spoil the skin.
      1. 0
        22 July 2017 06: 45
        Quote: Vlad.by
        the best missiles - Topol, Yars, Voivode and other Sarmati missiles

        About that and the speech that the Russian air defense workers for free eat their bread.
    2. 0
      24 July 2017 10: 36
      Quote: Operator
      The Russian air defense forces are absent as a class:
      - A key element of a modern air defense system - AWACS aircraft;

      A-50 - exist and are applied.
      Quote: Operator
      - noise-tolerant radars and RGSN anti-aircraft missiles with AFAR;

      And who has a missile with AFAR?
      Quote: Operator
      - short-range anti-aircraft missiles for self-defense of air defense systems and air defense radars.

      As I understand it, the Pantsir complex, created by order of the air defense forces specifically for covering the air defense systems of the air defense system, is computer graphics and Mosfilm pavilions? smile
      1. 0
        24 July 2017 22: 37
        Quote: Alexey RA
        A-50 - exist and apply

        Exist, but not applicable.

        The carapace is about nothing under the conditions of applying a mass of false targets (UAVs).
        About the fact that the command of the air defense forces of the airborne forces of the Russian Federation is sweatshirts rubbing points to the command of the RF Armed Forces.
  46. 0
    21 July 2017 22: 06
    Quote: Operator
    black hole where budget financing flies

    It's sarcasm?
    1. +2
      22 July 2017 10: 55
      This is the Operator
  47. 0
    21 July 2017 22: 24
    Quote: Operator
    Russian air defense forces are the most stupid air defense forces in the world: they are armed with anti-aircraft missiles with a range of 300 and 400 km, while their radars see targets no further than 40-50 km. These long-range, useless missiles also cost about a hundred million rubles apiece, i.e. much more expensive than their main purpose - a cruise missile.
    The main goal for them is carriers of cruise missiles. Where did you get such a price?
    Quote: Operator
    The Russian air defense forces are absent as a class:
    - A key element of a modern air defense system - AWACS aircraft;
    A-50 is a bit, A-100 is being made.
    Quote: Operator
    - anti-aircraft missiles with AFAR;
    We’ll stay without pants. And why on an AFAR rocket? To map the earth?
    Quote: Operator
    - short-range anti-aircraft missiles for self-defense of air defense systems and air defense radars.
    Tor, Shell, 9M96E1 from S-300 ...
    Quote: Operator
    Domestic air defense troops are a black hole where budget financing flies (due to the fault of the command of the air defense forces).
    There are no air defense troops, in 1998 they were eliminated.
    1. +1
      21 July 2017 22: 42
      Quote: bk0010
      No air defense troops

      There are troops (staffing, positions, salaries, bodies in positions), no air defense.

      Not a single Russian anti-aircraft missile (including the C-500) can hit a single carrier of cruise missiles - the range of the former does not exceed 500 km, the range of the latter exceeds 900 km.

      An anti-aircraft missile with a solid propellant rocket is more expensive than a cruise missile with a turbojet engine.

      A-50 in the singular takes to the air on major holidays - these aircraft are elementary, their flight resource is scanty, the time spent in the air is for chickens to laugh. A-100 is an object of many years of idle talk like "we are working on the issue."

      Do you distinguish jammed AFAR from a synthetic aperture cartographic radar?

      Thor and the Shell are not able to intercept modern anti-radar missiles from the word completely under the conditions of using electronic warfare and overloading guidance systems with a large number of false targets - cheap UAVs (as mentioned in the article).
      1. +1
        22 July 2017 01: 14
        1. The air defense forces in the country have long been gone.
        2. It is necessary to compare not the carrier range of the missile and missile systems, but the launch range of the missile launcher and the range of missiles. The flight range of the Tomahawks is about 1500 km. - To hit targets in the interior of the country, it is required to enter airspace.
        3.Can I have proofs? It is necessary to compare not the cost of missiles and anti-missiles, but anti-missiles and potential damage from the Kyrgyz Republic. If the Kyrgyz Republic costs 1 million and can cause damage to 10 million, then spending 2 million on its destruction is very profitable.
        4. Yes, the A-50 is small, but from not one but about 20 /

        In general, the fight against the Kyrgyz Republic and anti-radar missiles is a complex task that is being addressed comprehensively.
        1) the most effective way to fight - the destruction of carriers
        for the Kyrgyz Republic, the launch range of 1500 km, in the presence of a radar control zone and fighter aircraft (namely, fighter interceptors based a system of carrier orbiting back in the days of the USSR) is a task to be solved.
        for anti-radar missiles, a launch range of about 100 km. those. the carrier must enter the range of the SAM.
        2) EW KR during the flight should be tied to the terrain and adjust the program. adjustment is made by analyzing the terrain at the control points or GPS signals. both of them, if desired, are suppressed (36 missing axes ??? !!)
        3) the struggle with systems like armor at the last frontier is not effective in itself and is not able to repulse a massive strike. the main task in the framework of echeloned defense is to bring down individual missiles that have broken through distant echelons.

        after the 90s, we have many problems in the air defense system, but they are mostly organizational, not technical.

        However, as in the cases of examples from the article.

        if the crowd of Papuans was given the latest weapons, but the crowd was shot by a problem not in weapons, but in the organization and training of the Papuans ...
        1. 0
          22 July 2017 06: 56
          First, false targets are launched - UAVs (carriers are located outside the anti-aircraft defense zone), which detect radars and overload the SAM system.

          After that, anti-radar missiles strike the air defense radar.

          Then the strike of the Kyrgyz Republic is struck at the command posts and the starting positions of the air defense.

          In conclusion, the Kyrgyz Republic strikes at the other goals of the Russian Federation (NATO has about 10000 KR).
          1. +2
            22 July 2017 10: 20
            Quote: Operator
            First, false targets are launched - UAVs (carriers are outside the air defense zone)

            Quote: Operator
            The Russian air defense forces are absent as a class:

            Quote: Operator
            A-50 in the singular takes off on great holidays - these aircraft are elementary

            Well, nonsense. It turns out there is a military air defense, UAV carriers, the only A50, which are few. Well, you sketch, duck at least do not contradict yourself.
          2. 0
            22 July 2017 14: 56
            Are you aware of such a concept as goal selection? and in general, how do air defense systems work?
            there are separate radio parts that control airspace; they determine and select targets.
            After a decision is made to destroy any targets, either interceptors rise or anti-aircraft gunners are already involved.

            even on radars 40 years ago, the target class was easily determined.

            to launch anti-radar missiles you need to go 100 km. viewing range of the same "Sky-M" up to 600 km.

            In general, one must understand for what purposes the air defense system is being created.
            what you write refers to large-scale war. The beginning of the scenario of a disarming strike in order to withdraw the strategic nuclear forces of the Russian Federation by non-nuclear means.

            only if this tudar is so multi-stage (first, launch into the airspace a lot of false targets)
            then go into space to the carriers of anti-radar missiles ... despite the fact that we have at least 40% of the borders to which these carriers will stupidly not reach.
            and then the strike of the Kyrgyz Republic on air defense centers ...

            if the Strategic Missile Forces catch mice during this time, they should already be in ready state number 1 and wait only for launch codes.

            the ends do not meet, let us have other fantasies ...
            1. 0
              22 July 2017 15: 06
              Quote: GreyJoJo
              viewing range of the same "Sky-M" to 600 km

              The viewing range of low-altitude targets of any ground-based radar is determined by the radio horizon (~ 40 km).

              All tactical aircraft in the air defense zone fly at low altitude.
              1. +1
                22 July 2017 19: 21
                "Overview of low-altitude goals" dear mother, what are we talking about? Who are we trying to prove?
      2. The comment was deleted.
  48. +3
    21 July 2017 22: 27
    Not too adequate article.
    1. +3
      22 July 2017 14: 24
      Quote: Elijah1969
      Not too adequate article.

      too inadequate
  49. +3
    21 July 2017 23: 32
    Reading the comments, I am surprised, but how quickly did everyone forget that, out of the 59 “axes” that started, only 23 reached Shairat?
    Write off 60% of losses on "rusty axes" or on "weather conditions"?
    The fact that ours did not use “officially” air defense does not mean at all that they were not used at all. Given all the "tambourine dances" around Trump, they could have played along with him, so as not to dishonor him.
    Regarding Libya, Iraq and Yugoslavia. And why the author does not give the actual nature of hostilities. After all, “a no brainer” that if the enemy possesses air defense, any military operation today begins with the destruction of air defense - in order to clear the sky for their aircraft. And the first thing is a massive raid by cruise and anti-radar missiles.
    Today, in general, no one - neither we, nor the United States, or any other state - is able to fight a really massive strike by the Kyrgyz Republic, with hundreds or even thousands of units. Just stupidly take the amount.
    First of all, a strike is carried out by itself on radars, then on launchers. 100 percent of the entire air defense is not destroyed, but is very thin out. After which either there will be a second strike, or "cleaned up" in the process of detecting unsuppressed air defense.
    So aviation could “iron with impunity” Libya, Iraq, Yugoslavia only under one condition - with suppressed air defense. Hence, such weak "achievements" of the air defense itself - after the first strike there were very few of them, although despite this the Yugoslavs even managed to bring down the "stealth".

    Another point. The USA does not have land carriers of "tomahawks". They all start from the sea, well, maybe also from airplanes. To inflict a massive blow with axes - it is necessary to collect a naval force. It is not difficult to find such a grouping near our coasts - given that all potentially dangerous directions are under the gun of satellites. That is, any collection of warships in an amount of "more than three" - immediately brings all the air defense to increased attention and increased readiness. Since air defense is not only ground-based air defense systems, but also aircraft with early warning systems, MiG-31 from which the "tomahawks" will not hide.
    By the way, if our S-400 radars supposedly "do not see" the axes, how did we know that there were 59 of them?
    Actually, the S-300/400 is primarily a missile defense system, and only then air defense. Their main task is rockets. And interceptors will fight with aviation, and with separate bursting specimens - “Buki” and “Armor”.

    Thus, anti-radar missiles can be the most dangerous. Although, according to information about the Khibiny electronic warfare system, which is able to blind an entire destroyer, it is quite possible that this problem has already been relatively resolved.

    And the most important thing. The author charmed, criticized all the air defense, but offered nothing in return. "Katz offers to give up?"
    Well, go give up. And we’ll try to wallow again ...
  50. +1
    22 July 2017 00: 41
    Quote: Operator
    Quote: bk0010
    No air defense troops

    There are troops (staffing, positions, salaries, bodies in positions), no air defense.
    In 1998, the country's air defense as a type of armed forces was eliminated. Only the Air Force remained.
    Quote: Operator
    Not a single Russian anti-aircraft missile (including the C-500) can hit a single carrier of cruise missiles - the range of the former does not exceed 500 km, the range of the latter exceeds 900 km.
    So what? 900 km to the target does not mean at all that 900 km to the air defense system.
    Quote: Operator
    An anti-aircraft missile with a solid propellant rocket is more expensive than a cruise missile with a turbojet engine.
    The link from where the price of rockets was taken, please provide.
    Quote: Operator
    Do you distinguish jammed AFAR from a synthetic aperture cartographic radar?
    I distinguish. Why on a rocket AFAR? There even PFAR is redundant.
    Quote: Operator
    Thor and the Shell are not able to intercept modern anti-radar missiles from the word completely under the conditions of using electronic warfare and overloading guidance systems with a large number of false targets - cheap UAVs (as mentioned in the article).
    Anti-radar missiles are not a problem at all: they learned to fool them qualitatively in the 80s. Protection is needed from conventional air-to-surface missiles. The name "penny UAV" do not tell me? Probably not. Because penny UAVs have a very small range, speed and carrying capacity, not to mention sighting and navigation systems. And if at least one of these parameters becomes acceptable, then the price becomes quite tangible.
  51. 0
    22 July 2017 01: 46
    In 100% of cases, the anti-aircraft gunners not only failed to protect the airspace, but were not even able to provide significant resistance to aviation.

    In fact, they seemed to be able to provide assistance in Donbass.
    The Georgians also knocked down something of ours in 2008.
    In all the wars cited in the article, the defenders also had aviation. Therefore, there was a problem not only in ground air defense. Overall superiority of forwards.
    In Western-style armies, air defense systems are given an order of magnitude less attention

    The Russian army is probably more defense-oriented. For a million reasons. But new technology creates new challenges for ground-based air defense - the author is 100% right about this. How to react to them, or how they are reacted to, is another question.
    1. +3
      22 July 2017 13: 57
      I'll continue the thought. As they sometimes say: “generals are always preparing for the last war.” This is especially likely for defense generals. An enemy intending to attack will think about how to break through the defense. Whether the defenders will think about how they will break through is not a fact. To do this, the generals and officers must have appropriate motivation, information, and the opportunity to take initiative. In some armies, initiative = failure to comply with an order = tribunal (or in war - execution on the spot), information is something superfluous that you are not supposed to know (excessive interest can lead to being considered a spy, alarmist or provocateur), and motivation - in peacetime it is to the soldiers marched well at the review in the presence of the senior commander, and so that there were no incidents in the unit that would have to be reported to the top, which would slow down the commander’s career growth.
  52. +2
    22 July 2017 01: 58
    Laugh at his article, the guy wrote everything down to the facts. Read military literature - with regards to Medvedka 19, everything is described in great detail. In Syria, if ours laid down 36 Tomahawks, then this is the merit of electronic warfare stations, not air defense
    1. ZVO
      0
      22 July 2017 12: 14
      Quote: Nicholas 90
      Laugh at his article, the guy wrote everything down to the facts. Read military literature - with regards to Medvedka 19, everything is described in great detail. In Syria, if ours laid down 36 Tomahawks, then this is the merit of electronic warfare stations, not air defense


      Are you sure that these 36 Tomahawks did not find their targets?
      Maybe they destroyed the base's supporting infrastructure?
      Driveways..
      Pipelines and pumping stations...
      Energy system...
      What is not "in plain sight".
      Only the runway and hangars are visible.
      The runway can be repaired quickly. 1-2 days.
      Hangars in such a climate are not particularly important.

      But when there is no supporting infrastructure, then you can forget about the airfield for years...
    2. 0
      22 July 2017 14: 40
      Air defense is not only missiles,
      These are also electronic warfare and interceptors.
  53. +2
    22 July 2017 08: 44
    We somehow forget about the last wars... In Ukraine, by the way, in 2 months the militia, not possessing decent air defense systems, completely grounded enemy aircraft, and for a long time...
  54. +2
    22 July 2017 10: 09
    author, what are your regalia? Who are you??
  55. +1
    22 July 2017 10: 12
    This does not eliminate the possibility that the stupid PRR attacks the microwave instead of the radar.

    Yeah! It’s clear now why Americans so often make fun of peaceful people! Microwaves are to blame... Thanks to the author of the article, he advised me and saved me. I'll go throw the fuck out the microwave. Well, screw them, these hot cakes...
  56. +1
    22 July 2017 10: 53
    means of attack are always one step ahead.
    The eternal confrontation between sword and shield. The attacker always has an advantage. It should be noted that in addition to aviation, modern wars are characterized by the fact that the country is first economically bled dry, isolated, then forces are gathered many times greater than then tomahawks, shrikes, weasels and carnivals... smile
    A sword raised above your head has a greater chance of success than a bulletproof vest on your body
    1. +1
      22 July 2017 11: 07
      Quote: Catherine II
      A sword raised above your head has a greater chance of success than a bulletproof vest on your body

      You will not be able to pierce a bulletproof vest with a sword from the word “in general.”
      1. 0
        23 July 2017 21: 16
        That is why the attacker will strike with a sword in a place not covered by body armor.
        1. 0
          23 July 2017 22: 42
          Quote: zoolu300
          That is why the attacker will strike with a sword in a place not covered by body armor.

          And he, this striker of yours, will miss...
  57. +3
    22 July 2017 10: 58
    The author is kindly requested to write how the aviation of the losing side performed in the same conflicts (and compare with air defense, of course)
  58. ZVO
    0
    22 July 2017 12: 04
    Setrac,
    Quote: Setrac
    Quote: Walanin
    But what is the point of keeping mobile complexes around Moscow, for example, if they all stand in stationary prepared positions and have nowhere to go?

    There is a sense - for example, to change positions. They will be able to leave perfectly. For example, the same tomahawks do not shoot at targets, but at geographical coordinates (roughly speaking), and if the air defense system leaves its position, then the rocket will not be able to understand this.

    You apparently have never been interested in the tactics of using missile defense against air defense targets.
    So, have you ever wondered: why are tens and hundreds of missile launchers always produced for one battery/regiment/division?
    After all, there is only one/two/three radars...
    Yes, because at the same time there is a blow to the entire previously explored infrastructure.
    Everything that has been revealed is subject to attack.
    Positions for the placement of launchers and radars, command posts, communication and power supply centers, fuel depots and ammunition depots.
    Spare positions, spare power supply and communication lines.
    Even intersections and bridges adjacent to the areas where the air defense systems are located are destroyed in the first strike.

    Think about why almost 60 missiles were fired at a simple airfield?
    1. 0
      22 July 2017 14: 31
      Quote: ZVO
      Think about why almost 60 missiles were fired at a simple airfield?

      To the garden! Shayrat airfield was operational two weeks later. The Americans really screwed up with this attack, and no one has hit them yet.
      1. ZVO
        +1
        22 July 2017 15: 25
        Listen. gardener.
        What worked there?
        The strip was not touched anyway.
        did the planes start to go into hangars? have you started to refuel?
        Has a new radar appeared?
        At best, our helicopters with special forces have returned.

        You're lying. don't lie...
        1. 0
          22 July 2017 15: 36
          Quote: ZVO
          Listen. gardener.
          What worked there?

          to the garden! to the garden!
          Today, two Su bombers took off from the Shayrat military airfield in Syria, which was hit by a US missile attack the day before.
          Correspondent.net, April 8, 2017, 13:21
      2. 0
        22 July 2017 17: 09
        Quote: poquello
        Shayrat airfield was operational two weeks later.

        Is there any evidence for this?
        1. 0
          22 July 2017 17: 14
          Quote: Walanin
          Quote: poquello
          Shayrat airfield was operational two weeks later.

          Is there any evidence for this?

          Do you have evidence to the contrary? )))
  59. +1
    22 July 2017 13: 53
    I wonder if Kaptsov is so sure that modern air defenses are rubbish, why did he crap so much on American aircraft carriers? or do they launch high and slow-flying airships from them? Well, no logic, no knowledge. damn expert))
  60. 0
    22 July 2017 21: 09
    Quote: Fridrih
    Do not judge the reality of air defense under the article of the couch "expert"

    Now, no matter where you spit, you’ll turn into a wonderful expert or political scientist!...They know everything, they teach us about life!...But they don’t guess shit with their forecasts!!...But they lie in a new way like nothing else never happened!!...Sofa pigs, that's who they are!!
  61. 0
    22 July 2017 22: 28
    A strong article, but not entirely objective!

    Let me remind the author that in the USSR there were, and even in Russia, there are air defense missiles for destroying group targets, that is, with a Nuclear warhead. As soon as they jump from Smolensk to Lisbon, there will simply be no one in the air...
  62. +3
    22 July 2017 22: 56
    The article is frankly amateurish. 1) The USA does not develop air defense because The US doctrine describes total superiority in aviation. And the number of aircraft in 3k simply makes even the development of this weapon meaningless. The Russian Federation has less than 1k. The rest have even less. Israel's main problem is not the planes, but the missiles that fly at it with enviable consistency. He is building missile defense. 2) The S-400 looks beyond the horizon by reflection from the ionosphere, which means it’s the same as from above, and here it doesn’t matter how low the plane flies. 3) to shoot down anti-radar missiles, the S-400 is always accompanied by armor. Why waste a very expensive rocket when you can spend a cheap one. 4) There is a channel in Syria to prevent incidents in the sky. So all departures are consistent. As an example, I will give one incident when a Syrian plane was shot down. And one threat to accompany all aircraft with the S-1 was enough to prevent coalition aircraft from flying until all disputes regarding the incident were resolved. 1) The Arabs used air defense in the 400s. A wonderful example. Everything about it is wonderful. And the Arab regular forces whose ability to fight is known to everyone. And the fact that the 5th generation aircraft did not shoot down the 50nd generation air defense. In conclusion, I will say that the ability to prohibit the Russian Federation from being in its skies by foreign experts is estimated at 4-2%. This is a threat to ensure that no aircraft enters our airspace uninvited.
  63. +1
    23 July 2017 08: 31
    The USSR Ministry of Defense cited other numbers - 68 casualties (including those shot down in aerial combat).
    In any case it gives less than one thousandth of a percent from 144 combat sorties of MNF aviation.

    The author urgently needs to go to school to study mathematics laughing
    1 percent = 1440
    1 thousandth of a percent = 1.4
  64. 0
    23 July 2017 09: 12
    Why does everyone know, but they are pumping billions into the S400? It would be better if they ordered more fighters.
    1. 0
      23 July 2017 10: 16
      Probably the fighters that have taken off (to destroy air defense systems) very clearly indicate their starting point, which can be “burned” with several (for example) “Calibers”. And without airfields there is no aviation.
  65. +2
    23 July 2017 10: 12
    The country knows its heroes!
    I skimmed through the first 10 lines of “all lost” and felt the author, but was a little surprised by the subject matter. It turns out Oleg is a generalist.
  66. +1
    23 July 2017 16: 35
    So why did Israel stop flying over Syria? No one will knock them down. They may accidentally fall. Why then an iron cauldron?
  67. 0
    24 July 2017 10: 02
    I propose to solve the problem of reloading ammunition for air defense systems during a massive air raid in the following ways: Missiles must have their own launch containers. For example, behind the armor is a Kamaz truck, which has a supply of missiles not in boxes, but in vertically standing containers, like pencils, ready to be launched at the command of the main vehicle. The rocket is thrown upward by a pneumatic charge or a powder charge, then the main engine and control rudders are turned on. There is no need to overload anything into the main machine.
    1. +1
      25 July 2017 02: 10
      Congratulations, you just invented BUK)
  68. 0
    24 July 2017 14: 04
    Everything is correct The author writes - ..Air defense is nothing, the Air Force is everything!.. It is enough to take on board the aircraft ..7 kg 57 mm. a shell from .. Nudelman, conceived back in the USSR to crush any air defense within a radius of 30 km. from the aircraft, from which (distance) you can calmly work on the ground with missiles with a TV guidance system for any targets... without worrying about anything...
  69. +1
    24 July 2017 20: 45
    Actually, it was Vietnam with hundreds of downed aircraft. That’s why we need to invest in the development of air defense so that it matches the means of attack. And not like in Iraq and Serbia. They don’t even think about going into the restricted zones in Syria. And in general, the article was written by some European cavalryman. There is no point in discussing, but everyone is discussing. Purely rotten provocation?
  70. 0
    24 July 2017 21: 22
    Quote: Fridrih
    The ground component of air defense is only part of the air defense itself, so to speak about its inefficiency in examples where this system was absent ... not right

    Why did this “expert” on battleships switch to air defense?
  71. +1
    24 July 2017 22: 25
    Well, another air defense “specialist” has shown up again; it would be better if he kept quiet. All the examples he gave indicate that those who had a weak and outdated air defense system were defeated. Why didn’t you analyze the composition of the forces of the parties? The amount of aviation that was used to suppress the air defenses of Iraq and Yugoslavia was dozens of times superior. A modern air defense system consists of ground and air components, it is of strategic importance; wars are not started against states with a strong air defense system!
    1. 0
      25 July 2017 00: 08
      All proportions have been preserved - all defeatist countries had a large concentration of air defense systems in a small territory, Russia also has a large concentration of air defense systems, but over a vast territory - in which case some complexes will not be able to help others.
      1. +1
        25 July 2017 11: 10
        Do you also consider Vietnam a defeatist?
  72. +1
    24 July 2017 23: 57
    I often hear about “aircraft simulators,” but what if you scatter a bunch of emitters simulating missile defense radars around the area? Cheap and reusable (if they survive)
    1. 0
      26 July 2017 11: 00
      Why imitators? There are many signal emitters (that is, a real distributed radar), which are not particularly problematic to extinguish, but there are many of them and they are cheaper than the ammunition required to eliminate them. And the radiation receiver hangs somewhere on a balloon hundreds of kilometers away (AWACS is a bit expensive) and you can’t get to it through air defense positions, and it doesn’t emit anything.
  73. +2
    25 July 2017 02: 08
    The article, in fact, is about nothing... In the Middle East, the Arabs literally do not know how to use air defense at all, all cases of combat use were considered. Because they accused the Soviet complexes of ineffectiveness, they forgot to point out that the complexes were in an export modification, i.e. they did not change frequencies, unlike those that went to SA. For Yugoslavia: NATO office. confirmed the loss of two aircraft and 4 UAVs, and confirmation was only after the wreckage was shown... If anything, the size of the combat zones was about 200-300 km, i.e. the plane would be damaged, leave the zone and fly back. In fact, the plane could have been laid up later, but officially there were no losses. The Europeans counted at least two dozen of the same UAVs shot down. For example, let me explain: in Iraq, the United States did not admit that there were large losses Abramsov...a couple of pieces...Although according to the office. According to data, at least 500 tanks were returned to the USA due to the impossibility of restoration in the field, i.e. the tank was in fact destroyed, but it was returned back... In addition, the losses of cruise missiles were not taken into account.
  74. +5
    25 July 2017 07: 49
    The author of this article would do well to remember the words of Krylov: “The trouble is, if the shoemaker starts baking pies,
    And the boots are made by the pie man."
  75. +2
    25 July 2017 13: 13
    “Hour X” was a missile attack on the Shayrat airbase.

    It seems like 36 Tomahawks didn’t reach the target?
  76. +3
    25 July 2017 14: 32
    A very primitive view - the philistine view of building air defense defense and attack (aviation).

    1. Regarding Iraq, the author states:
    Briefly about the main thing - the aviation of the multinational forces bombed whoever they wanted, when they wanted and as much as they wanted
    This is not true, from the word AT ALL.
    This operation was carefully studied, and certain conclusions were drawn from it.

    The operation to suppress Iraqi air defenses represented a complex set of measures:
    - in the first wave of the attack there was a complex of strike weapons that worked according to previously received intelligence data.
    It was represented by both a Tomahawk order, Stealth bombers, and helicopters, electronic warfare equipment and even sabotage detachments, abandoned in advance and brought to positions near key points (communication centers, radar stations). The Iraqi air defense systems were suppressed by electronic warfare - they have been quite well studied and countermeasures have been developed against them.
    The newer the complex, the less the possibility of completely suppressing it with electronic warfare (this takes time and it is not a fact that it will not change the range of operation under the wartime regime).

    For those interested in more details, listen to Khodarenka April 21, 2016
    "The USA wins by not acting according to the template" http://radiovesti.ru/brand/61009/episode/1374063/

    Only a naive child does not know that detection of low-flying targets (airplanes, missiles, helicopters) is not possible beyond the radio horizon.
    If the application is subjected to logical analysis, it turns out that any, the most advanced air defense system is powerless against low-flying aircraft and missiles.
    If the complex works to guide airborne detection systems of the A-10 type, AWACS complexes, then the picture changes radically.

    Well, my favorite example is countering electronic warfare - this is a double-edged sword. If air assets can operate against air defense and complicate its work.
    That is, ground-based electronic warfare systems have an order of magnitude greater capabilities both in terms of signal strength and in the choice of attack method.

    I have repeatedly given an example of how our electronic warfare battalion in the GSVG forced the American AWACS out of German airspace (thwarting its patrol and forcing it to land in the UK).
    But perhaps the most effective operation seems to be the “escort” operation of the F-16 squadron redeploying from Italy, whose communications were deprived, navigation was disrupted - the squadron “got lost”, was on the verge of running out of fuel - NATO leadership directly appealed to the command of the GSVG with a request to stop electronic warfare. The operation was stopped and the squadron was safely directed to the nearest airfield.

    This is an indicator of how easily a “hunter” is placed in the position of “game” by a complex of air defense and electronic warfare measures available to high-tech powers. Air defense covers a certain high-altitude range, in combination with electronic warfare and aviation - it reveals its potential (like vodka and beer).

    And it was not for nothing that the commander of the electronic warfare battalion told his subordinates - in WORLD WAR THIRD - EVERYONE WILL BE CARRYING REELS OF WIRE!
  77. 0
    25 July 2017 16: 30
    Quote: DimerVladimer

    Well, my favorite example is countering electronic warfare - this is a double-edged sword. If air assets can operate against air defense and complicate its work.
    That is, ground-based electronic warfare systems have an order of magnitude greater capabilities both in terms of signal strength and in the choice of attack method.

    This is also one of my favorite techniques - “Either there is electronic warfare, or there is not. What is different is ..unprovable!” (C) ..film "Beware of the Car"... So here in the case of electronic warfare - there are a lot of words, but somehow everything is on top... What can electronic warfare do? Ground-based electronic warfare can cause interference, which, under certain conditions, can slightly distort the angular coordinates of ground targets, with a wide directional pattern of AWACS probing pulses. That's all, actually... How will this help the enemy’s ground-based air defense, if it can be used in thermal television detection modes, from a distance of 30 km. ? But no way... Why "at 30"..? ,at least because ..air-to-air AR R-60m weighs ..50 kg on an airplane. ..and if you comb it a little, it will be able to work against a Buk air defense missile as an anti-missile. How many missiles does the BUK 9K37 have in its kit? Pieces..70?..on the TU-95 you can load 250 R-60M as anti-missile missiles. And besides BUK..Pantsir, Tor..at 30 km. ranges don't work. S-300, 400, 500... missiles included are no more than 9K37... And Russia's ground-based air defense system is...object-based, which means that with the right logistics, you can enter Russian territory, somewhere in the Chukotka Autonomous Okrug, and reach Novosibirsk...without trying to counter the Russian ground-based air defense..
  78. 0
    25 July 2017 21: 12
    Vadim237,
    why at 3 meters? why not lower? I recommend driving a children's helicopter to study the adaptability of the automation to sudden changes in terrain, see what you can do with your hands.
    Well, about the guns, how many are there on the dagger? 5 thousand rounds per minute? Not?
  79. +1
    26 July 2017 00: 37
    No, well, let’s say Moscow and St. Petersburg are covered systematically and comprehensively. Breaking through to them even with a decent air force is a pain in the ass. But the rest of the territory of the Russian Federation is somehow not very well protected from attack from above.
    And even if some Rostov-on-Don has (at least) a S500 and a dozen Pantsirs with other anti-aircraft missile paraphernalia, this will not save it if a horde comes to bomb. I do not argue.
    On the other hand, the author describes so well how the air defense will be destroyed by aviation and anti-aircraft missile systems, so all the bullshit falls into place.
    If the enemy's muzzles launched a couple of missiles and planes at us at a time, then we will fight back. But if they suddenly came in a crowd, with drones and cruise missiles, then in response I would be embarrassed to raise air defense aircraft. For what? When there is a crowd of all sorts of crap in the air stuffed with very sensitive electronics, and therefore not very reliably protected from EMP, wouldn’t it be easier to throw away a couple of high-altitude nuclear weapons so that all this flying stuff would crash to the ground, and then we would collect the little bit from them?
  80. 0
    26 July 2017 10: 02
    Another nonsense from Kaptsov...
  81. The comment was deleted.
  82. 0
    26 July 2017 10: 29
    Quote: GluckOvNik
    Isn’t it easier to hit a couple of high-altitude nuclear weapons so that all this flying stuff crashes to the ground, and then we collect the golden leg from them?
    The idea went in the right direction, with only one caveat - This is exactly what the “world behind the scenes” is seeking from the Russian Federation - Russia must process itself with its nuclear weapons.
    1. 0
      28 July 2017 00: 35
      It’s better to treat the Atlantic, it’s a pity to poison and irradiate yourself. And it’s even better if they are washed away and the World breathes freely. But not for long, the Chinese will be driven away.
  83. +1
    26 July 2017 10: 50
    I am not a professional in air defense, but in an amateur’s opinion, the problem described by the author is solved by a combination of the ground location of anti-aircraft missiles (and it is not even necessary to deploy crews next to them - just place the launch containers on the ground) and the air location of radars far enough behind the positions of the anti-aircraft missiles. Radars can be on the same balloons/airships. Vulnerable to enemy missiles and aircraft? So it’s no easier for them to get there past the anti-aircraft gunners’ positions than to shoot at ground-based radars located not far from the air defense systems. The curvature of the earth's surface can be overcome by raising the emitter several kilometers (as far as I understand, they are relatively cheap, and the receiver of the reflected signal works passively, therefore it is much less vulnerable), and anti-aircraft missiles can shoot down planes at any altitude, since such technologies are used in aircraft missiles , there would be target designations.
    1. 0
      26 July 2017 12: 30
      In fact, all these voluminous and ornate tactical, operational-tactical and, one might say, strategic concepts of building and confronting ground-based air defense and enemy aviation degenerate into one simple dilemma.
      Back in the USSR there was such a design bureau named after. Nudelman, who developed a 57-mm guided projectile for ZA, weighing about 7 kg. . If you make an aircraft anti-missile missile out of it, it will fit into 5 kilograms. If a B-10 or Il-52, re-sharpened for exceptional performance with such anti-missile equipment, is loaded with at least 76 tons of such beggars, then this will result in 15 pieces. And this is only on one such Aviation platform. And if there are 1500 of them in a “salvo”, half of which will be loaded only with various types of small-caliber gliding bombs, including cluster warheads (miniature decoy bomb-like targets) and with echelons of 10 km or more. , which are not reachable by those lighter than the Buk, ZR Pantsir, Tor and other Needles and Sosny, assuming that for one S-11, 300, 400..500, 2 anti-missile missiles, it seems to me, " the top" will pass "over the bottom", indeed, like a fiery roller, and will pass right at the zenith above the S-3, without worrying at all about such inconveniences as ground-based air defense. Like so.
      1. 0
        27 July 2017 00: 09
        Sorry, are you serious? A projectile with a radio fuse is not a guided munition at all. Yes, thanks to them, the Americans greatly increased the effectiveness of their Bofors during WWII, but the projectiles do not change this trajectory, they can only explode more or less on time. Secondly, the interception device must withstand four times greater overloads than the target. An airplane maneuvers up to 10g, an air defense missile - up to 40g, your "anti-missile" should be able to maneuver at 160g. It will be very expensive. And the time for interception is very short: the fighter has a speed of 2M, and a missile is flying towards it at 5M.
        1. 0
          27 July 2017 11: 51
          Quite, like, seriously. We are not talking about a radio fuse, but about a similar laser one. 57mm. The UAS can change its trajectory at a distance of up to 3 km. from a carrier with an overload of 40G... Secondly, the interception device should not withstand overloads four times greater than the target. Where does this come from, you ask? Well, for example, without theoretical justification, this was written about ..Iskander, its missile can withstand overloads, when attacking a target at the terminal part of the trajectory, up to 25G. Experts comment, in the context we are considering, that the overload of the anti-missile missile should be ... 2 times greater. I had to read this. But, in fact .. an overload of 40 gravitational units is 400 m/s2 .. , this is S = a(t^2)\2 = the distance traveled by the attacking air defense missile from the direction of the trajectory towards the target (aircraft) in 1 sec. and equal in our case ..200 m. ..i.e. in the most energetically favorable, hypothetically, time period of the missile attack, with its speed of 5 m (1500 m/s)... it will be at the range of, say, a non-maneuvering (B-52) target with a deviation of 200 m from it. How effective is detonating a warhead at such a distance, do you think?..
  84. +1
    26 July 2017 22: 38
    Everything is lost! Blah blah blah!
    Ugh!
  85. aiw
    +1
    27 July 2017 10: 47
    Oleg, I can only repeat myself once again - write about the history of the fleet, you do a great job. But, I beg you, don’t try to write “analytical” articles on any near-technical topics - it turns out to be complete nonsense, you’ll just lose face...

    Have you heard anything about AWACS aircraft (they completely solve the problem of the radio horizon and are capable of issuing control commands for air defense systems)? On the air defense side, at a minimum, there are no weight restrictions on ammunition inherent in aviation. As I understand it, you are now also calling for the removal of air defense from ships, replacing it with armor?
    1. 0
      20 March 2018 21: 13
      Quote: aiw
      Oleg, I can only repeat myself once again - write about the history of the fleet, you do a great job.

      Kaptsov regularly lies incompetently and illiterately about the fleet too.
  86. 0
    27 July 2017 12: 09
    Quote: aiw
    ...losing face...
    Have you heard anything about AWACS aircraft (they completely solve the problem of the radio horizon and are capable of issuing control commands for air defense systems)? On the air defense side, at a minimum, there are no weight restrictions on ammunition inherent in aviation. As I understand it, you are now also calling for the removal of air defense from ships, replacing it with armor?
    Issuing control commands and deciding.. the radio horizon is undoubtedly prestigious, but how effective is it in terms of solving the problem of the existential destruction of the Air Platform if.. the “weight restrictions” are as follows - 2 anti-missiles, with a total weight of 20 kg. on the B-52, “levelling” one 9M96 .. and itself, the most modern Russian ground-based air defense missile system weighing ..333 kg. ..from the S-400?..Yes, and the surface fleet, as opposed to the submarine and aviation fleet, may well turn out to be a cavernous anachronism upon unpopular but scientific consideration.
  87. The comment was deleted.
  88. 0
    14 January 2018 12: 07
    I, a jacket and a simple technician, think that the one who will win the coming war will be the one who delivers a sudden and massive (thousands, in the case of the use of nuclear weapons, and tens of thousands with basic equipment) strike. Everything else, both our chatter and the chatter of potential friends, is for our fragile brains. And also for great benefit for military-industrial complex owners in all countries.
  89. +1
    15 January 2018 14: 29
    I have nothing to do with air defense, but the logic is there.
    1. How can one draw any conclusions based on the analysis of local conflicts, especially those in which the weight categories of the opponents were completely different?
    2. What conclusions can be drawn from conflicts in which the then modern air force participated, and antediluvian air defense systems stood against them? S-75 and S-125 for 82 and 86 are by no means new for the season. This applies to an even greater extent to the Iraqi and Yugoslav wars. Junk versus modern aviation.
    3. What conclusions can be drawn from wars in which modern air forces faced multiple air defense systems, but combined into a single system? A crowd is not an army, just like a bunch of old air defense systems are not full-fledged air defense.
    4. Aviation was not noticed at all by the losers.
    5. However, in Vietnam everything did not turn out as smoothly for the United States as in Libya or Iraq. You can also remember that if the Israeli Air Force crushed the Arabs with one left, then when the Soviet soldiers got down to business, everything became much more interesting and the Israelis suffered considerable losses, but they were no longer flying so freely.
    in general, Kaptsov did not convince me that we urgently need to throw out all air defense systems, and abolish air defense altogether as a useless branch of the military. Just as he did not convince even the American generals of this, who, in theory, should have abandoned air defense long ago as a relic of the past, especially since for the last half century no one has attacked Americans from the air with the rarest exceptions. However, they are in no hurry to send the air defense system to the smelter. Are they really that stupid? Or will we again explain everything by corruption? Like, it’s good to make money on air defense, that’s why they didn’t abolish it?
  90. +1
    16 January 2018 13: 27
    How to downvote an idiotic article???
    From the very first words I realized that something was wrong, I read to the end, everything became clear - Kaptsov, with his next aggravation...

    It’s time to understand that not a single branch of the military has a decisive effect on the battlefield - but they are strong precisely in the aggregate and when used competently. It is air defense that forces planes to fly carefully and bomb from afar - and if it weren’t for it, they would bomb anyone the way the Russian Aerospace Forces are now bombing bearded men in Syria.

    But Kaptsov is a manipulator; he even illustrated the words “on the very first night, all of this (the air defense system) was completely destroyed” with footage of the “highway of death” in Iraq, where the retreating soldiers were already OUT OF BATTLE, and without reliable cover of the Iraqi air defense - which in the picture is simply No...
  91. 0
    17 January 2018 15: 05
    It looks like the author predicts that the country’s air defense is a complete mess, but I think that in the next article he will suggest that all this (air defense) be booked to the very eyebrows, and the FUCK will retreat. Well, at least someone is having fun.
  92. 0
    17 January 2018 23: 29
    Crap! How fed up are all these crazy experts? Designers came up with ideas, factories were built, the military tested them, and then some paper scribbler came and “proved” to everyone that they didn’t understand a damn thing and that what they had been working on for years was... bullshit!
    The only question is: why, as soon as, according to exPERD, the “failed” S-400 was deployed in Syria, the Turks stopped flying altogether, and the Americans did not show their noses from the de-escalation zones? Where did the tomahawks go? More than half actually didn’t make it!
  93. 0
    12 March 2018 10: 44
    "The X-Hour was a missile strike on the Shayrat airbase. In an effort to protect shoulder straps and reputation, they made excuses in different ways. Some referred to the lack of an order. Others honestly wrote about the lack of technical capabilities for interception. In that situation, the presence or absence of an order is no longer mattered."

    Only then did I realize who the author was.
  94. 0
    20 March 2018 11: 08
    Another fecal-cerebral miscarriage of Oleg Kaptsov.

    How much bullshit of this inadequate can you publish?
    1. 0
      20 March 2018 21: 18
      One passage about Shayrat is worth it - you see, at a distance of a hundred kilometers and through the mountain range of the Kyrgyz Republic they did not shoot down.
  95. 0
    April 10 2018 12: 59
    Everything is lost!
    This does not negate the possibility that a stupid PRR attacks a microwave instead of a radar
    mobilize all microwave ovens from the population! and create “counter-PPR” troops, one fighter per hundred microwaves!
  96. 0
    April 11 2018 08: 41
    Engaged article. The author deliberately “forgot” about the effectiveness of the s75 in Vietnam, or did he not know?
    I dare to remind you that it is not only weapons that fight, but also combat crews.
    So in Vietnam, Soviet “military consultants” shot down Americans in batches, but who was in the cockpits in Tripoli?
    To be fair, yes, if the S300 air defense system manages to shoot down enemy aircraft with the first salvo, change position and return to combat mode, the hero’s star, or at least the Order of the Red Star, is guaranteed to the crew, but it’s not terminators that fly in the planes.
  97. 0
    April 12 2018 00: 10
    I would like to ask the author, firstly, where did the 36 Tomahawks go out of the 59 released in Shayrat, secondly, the ratio of the strength of the NATO Air Force and the Serbian air defense system, and thirdly, did the author try to give the monkey a microscope?
  98. 0
    April 14 2018 08: 12
    A useful reminder to counter the rabid verbiage. Alas, a very weak counterweight.
    Certainly! Ground-based air defense systems alone are, to put it mildly, insufficient, like any passive defense!
    Only systemic defense with a significant offensive component is effective, which opens up the direct question of total war - otherwise loss...
    Only, the goals in this case should be acceptable to everyone, no matter how rampant the media is - general verbiage and tactical goals without clearly presented and conscious strategic goals - TERRIBLE.
  99. 0
    April 14 2018 17: 16
    The author is a noob and has disgraced himself. The S-400’s engagement range against ballistic targets is significantly less than the beautiful diagram drawn from Wikipedia. And planes (which the picture refers to) are quite capable of firing missiles without entering the air defense zone. The range is quite enough.
  100. 0
    April 16 2018 14: 44
    Setrac,
    Do you think deploying and collapsing the complex from combat to marching and back again is a piece of cake? Yes, the prepared calculation fits into the standards. But what about the positioning of the CF and so on. And there is also such a thing as PRR - an interesting thing, I’ll tell you