Military Review

The same age of the German Mauser is the Russian rifle of the 1891 model of the year (part of 2). Documents continue to tell ...

84
"... give to Caesar's Caesar and God to God"
(Gospel of Luke 20: 20-26)



It’s time to notice that this material would never have appeared if it had not been for the courtesy of Nikolai Mikhailov from St. Petersburg, who volunteered to work with the archival materials of the Museum of Artillery and communications troops, as well as the kind assistance of its employees and, in particular, the guardian of the archive Svetlana Vasilyevna Assumption. All materials of interest were filmed by them, and then used in this work, as well as an article by Tatiana Ilina on “The Fate of a Rifle”, first published on the pages of the St. Petersburg magazine “Eagle” back in 1991 year. Photocopies were “translated” into printed form, since in the handwritten version they are extremely difficult to understand, both because of the peculiarities of writing the words by hand with a fountain pen, and, in fact, the peculiarities of the then Russian language. Interestingly, in all documents the name “Mosin” is written with two “ss” - “Mossin”.

However, when reviewing this contract, the main regulatory commission on rearmament of the army drew attention to its 12 point and asked whether it was necessary to pay the premium to the Nagan if its rifles were not fully adopted, but only partially. According to General Sofiano, “the guns of Nagan are almost identical with the guns of Mosin and, in all likelihood, even if the system of the first is accepted, then some parts in it will have to be changed in accordance with the system of Mosin. Therefore, it is quite possible that there will be a wrangling over the payment of the Nagan 200 000 ”[7]. That is, the Russian generals knew perfectly well that when using the very best of two rifles in one sample, there could well be a conflict of interests and copyright.


Soldiers of the Russian Imperial Army with Mosinsky rifles on the Thessaloniki Front, World War I.

Anticipating some friction, they decided to start negotiations with Nagan in advance, and his own statement, made by him in a private conversation with Kryzhanovsky, that he would be satisfied with a reward of 75 thousand rubles, was taken as a starting point. This task was not easy to be assigned to a military agent, Colonel N.М. Chichagov. The Minister of War ordered him to incline Nagan to an even smaller amount, namely, to 50 thousands of rubles. It must be said that Nagan’s letters, which deal with the peculiarities of this transaction, characterize him as an entrepreneurial, quick, persistent. Never in his correspondence did he meet with claims to include his name in the name of the rifle - whether it is in him or not, in fact, he was indifferent. But he was very concerned about the reimbursement of the costs of fulfilling the Russian order. Therefore, Chichagov could not carry out this assignment.

Extract from magazine №24
Chief Executive Committee on Army Rearmament
December 8 1890 year.
The Chief Artillery Directorate appointed 16 December 1800 of the year.
The Ministry of Military Home Administrative Commission on the rearmament of the army 14 December 1890 year.
The presentation of the Executive Commission on the rearmament of the army of November of this year, No.3 / 54, on the approval of a production order, in the Tula Armament 30, listened to the pack guns designed by Captain Mossin, and listened to.
The Home Supervisory Commission has decided to approve the present in the Executive Commission on the rearmament of the army.
Submission to the Executive Commission.
Head of the Office
Lieutenant General (Signature)
Clerk (Signature)


As can be seen from the text of this document, all costs for the manufacture of Mosin rifles must be attributed to the costs of the treasury, that is, the costs of the state. Whereas L. Nagan carried his expenses privately and, naturally, counted on their compensation. (Archive of the Military Historical Museum of Artillery, Engineers and Communications Troops. F. 6. Op. 48 / 1. D. 34. L. 867)

The archival documents retained the mention in the journal No. 84 of the Main Administrative Commission of the “issuance of 200 000 rubles to Nagan, both in the case of the gun’s acceptance of its system as a whole and in the adoption of only some of its details”. Moreover, a week later after signing the contract, namely 20 of October 1890, Nagan sent lieutenant-general Kryzhanovsky letters claiming infringement of their rights of the inventor on eight points regarding a number of parts and assemblies of the new rifle. “I have reason to believe that the gun, similar to mine, was not in Russia either in March of this year, or when I presented it last year,” he wrote. The commission for developing a small-caliber rifle reviewed this letter in the journal (protocol) of 9 in March 1891 of the year presented its views on the issues raised as follows:

1. Does Nagant really have the rights of the inventor to the parts of the gun he named?

2. Terms of issuing guns SI Mosin.

3. Deadlines for submission of guns L. Nagan.

4. What did Mosin borrow from the gun of the Nagant system?

5. What is independently developed by Captain Mosin in his gun?

The commission examined all the circumstances of this case and came to the conclusion that Nagan has the inalienable rights of the inventor to almost all the details he named. Here is how! That is, his primacy as a designer of a new rifle was officially established by competent experts! The document, which was signed by all members of the commission, had the view shown in the photo below. Its content is as follows:


One of its pages ...

“Parts of a shotgun and a magazine mechanism, on which, in a letter from 20 of October 1890, Nagan claims the rights of the inventor.

1) Trapezoidal magazine casing with a door at the bottom on the hinge, on which the cartridge feeder is fixed.
The feeder with a moving platform participates in all movements of the door and is removed from it without any tool.
2) A combination of all parts of the locking and magazine mechanisms for the action of the chuck.
3) Two-lip cut-off, holding cartridges in the magazine and eliminating the simultaneous feeding of two cartridges.

Does Nagan really have the rights of the inventor to the parts named in the first column?

It has the inherent rights of the inventor, with the exception of the trapezoidal shape of the store, which was previously known to the Commission.

Have the inherent rights of the inventor.

In the form in which the cut-off was carried out by Mr. Nagan in his guns, which he presented in August and September of 1890, this belongs to Nagan.

What did Captain Mossin borrow from the gun of the Nagant systems?

The feeder of cartridges, the room of the feeder on the door and the opening of the door of the store down borrowed from Nagan.

What is independently developed by captain Mossin in his gun?

Due to the special design of the shutter, invented by Captain Mossin, and the combinations in action of the shutter with the magazine mechanism, are different:
The elimination of the simultaneous filing of two cartridges by isolating the second cartridge cut-off, proposed by Captain Mossin and made them in a gun on the 5 ½ months earlier than it was done later Nagan. The cut-off proposed by Captain Mossin is slightly different.

Notes

Guided by a genuine model of Nagan, presented to the Commission in October and November 1889, Captain Mossin, in December of the same year, making the first sample of his gun, made a magazine cover with a door and a feeder similar to it Nagana.

Parts of a shotgun and magazine mechanism, on which, in a letter dated 20 of October, 1890, Nagan claims the rights of the inventor.

4) Shop door clasp.

5) Slide fastener, one integral part of the descent and its combination with the protrusion on the bolt.

6) A fuse placed in the gun of the Nagan on the left side of the receiver and at the same time jamming the bolt and the trigger.

Does Nagan really have the rights of the inventor to the parts named in the first column?
In the form in which it is made in the guns of Nagant, belongs to him.

Belong to Nagan. In the form in which the fuse is made in Nagan's guns, it belongs to him.

What did Captain Mossin borrow from the gun of the Nagant systems?

What is independently developed by captain Mossin in his gun?

Kind of, as in gun Nagan.

The fastener in Captain Mossin's shotgun is completely different from the Nagant fastener.
The shutter is held in the gun box, separated by a strap, resting against the end of the groove in the shutter lag. Planck that offered Captain Mossin.
In one of the single-shot guns of Captain Mossin, which he had previously introduced to the appearance of the Nagan guns, a fuse was used, similar to the Nagan fuse, which differs, however, in details from the latter.
In the subsequent models of guns, Captain Mossin replaced the separate fuse with a lug on the trigger and a cutout on the bolt. For jamming the shutter and the trigger you want to turn the trigger to the left.

Notes

Parts of a shotgun and magazine mechanism, on which, in a letter dated 20 of October, 1890, Nagan claims the rights of the inventor.

7) Bundle or holder on 5 cartridges with protruding cuffs. The cartridges of the pack effort of thumb down into the casing.

8) Vertical grooves in the receiver, designed for inserting packs into them when loading a gun, and a solid jumper in the box.

Does Nagan really have the rights of the inventor to the parts named in the first column?

The idea of ​​filling the store and the form of a pack, from which cartridges go down to the store with a finger, belongs to Nagan.

In the form in which it is done in the guns of Nagant, belongs to the inventor.

What did Captain Mossin borrow from the gun of the Nagant system?

The way of filling the magazine by lowering the cartridge round with a finger, and, consequently, the grooves in the receiver were borrowed from Nagant.

What is independently developed by captain Mossin in his gun?

For shooting from the guns of Captain Mossin, packs of two samples were used. One sample was proposed by Captain Zakharov, and another by Captain Mossin. There is no transverse solid lintel in the box of Captain Mossin’s shotguns.

Notes
Signed: Lieutenant-General Chagin, Lieutenant-General Davydov, Major-General Ridiger, Colonel von der Hoveen, Colonel Kabanov and leader of the commission, Colonel Petrov.
True: Headquarters Captain [8].

Mosin did not agree with these conclusions, but the Commission insisted on its own. True, the members of the Commission invariably emphasized the special device of the bolt, invented by Captain Mosin, and the combination of this bolt in action with all the magazine mechanism available in the rifle.



Notes (continued)
7. Archive of the Military History Museum of Artillery, Engineers and Communications. F.6. Op. 48 / 1. D. 34. Ll 461 - 467. (further - AVIMAIVVS)
8. AVIMAIVS. F.4.Op.39-6. E. 171.L.10-11.


To be continued ...
Author:
84 comments
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  1. cap
    cap April 7 2017 15: 31
    +2
    I look forward to continuing, and really looking forward to comments from the author.
    1. kalibr
      April 7 2017 15: 34
      +4
      What to comment on? All text. Now it’s not only “speculation” that any competent, but also the original text written in ink can write. And then this is just the second material, and all of them 5. So what can there be comments "from the author"?
      1. cap
        cap April 7 2017 15: 38
        +2
        Quote: kalibr
        And then this is just the second material, and there are a total of 5. So what can there be comments "from the author"?


        I read it until the 5th. Interesting documents. Thank you for your work. hi
  2. Monarchist
    Monarchist April 7 2017 15: 36
    +3
    Vyacheslav, thank you for the story of the three-ruler. Almost everywhere and everywhere, when they wrote about the repair, they claimed that the emperor worshiped the West, and therefore Mosin was unjustly circumvented, etc.
    Only a few years ago I heard other information in the program "two trunks" on the TDK (?). Perhaps the commission then reasonably decided to call: "a three-line Infantry Rifle of the sample 1891."
    Question in topic: You do not know: who is the author of this cartridge? I heard somewhere, allegedly-Rogov, a member of the Artillery Committee, but is it or not?
    1. kalibr
      April 7 2017 17: 15
      +5
      Further on this will be VERY DETAILED. Surname only Rogovtsev!
  3. Mikado
    Mikado April 7 2017 16: 25
    +2
    good article, many documents, I suspect, are being published for the first time! Thank! good
    1. kalibr
      April 7 2017 17: 27
      +3
      Why not ?! Of course, for the first time, especially photocopies!
      1. cost
        cost April 8 2017 04: 34
        +4
        Sergey Ivanovich Mosin
  4. Zulu_S
    Zulu_S April 7 2017 16: 48
    +3
    Thank you, Vyacheslav. Of particular interest are the authorial demarcations of the Nagan - Mosin rifle. The fact that you have found documentary evidence is especially valuable. We look forward to continuing. I wish you success in your work, sincerely thank you.
    1. kalibr
      April 7 2017 17: 23
      +8
      This is all I must say to Nikolai Mikhailov from St. Petersburg! Despite his busyness, he went to the museum, sat in the waiting room, and waited for everyone to decide. Then he shot documents. Can you imagine what would happen if the archivists themselves listened? A copier can not be done. Do you see the safety of documents and folders? And so he re-shot so many whole 45 pages! And then I sat them all, lightened (yellow paper gives a gray background), and then after all, they all had to be dismantled. In a word, "time travel" was something else for both of us. So, colleagues, when we help each other, we can do very good things. For example, I know what interesting articles there are in the newspapers of Vladivostok for the 1906 year, but ... get their problem. And so on...
      1. Cat
        Cat April 7 2017 18: 07
        +6
        When a scientific work is invested, the labor of research is invested, its price multiplies many times.
        This is especially clearly seen when the conversation is about a legend, which is the Mosin rifle.
        I read it with rare pleasure, I do not look forward to continuing with great impatience. Thank!
  5. andrewkor
    andrewkor April 8 2017 10: 05
    0
    So without this, it has long been known about Mosin and Nagan. Every 10 years, similar articles appear for the younger generation. MasterRuzhё journal No. 7 for 2007 !!!
    1. kalibr
      April 8 2017 14: 10
      +2
      You are right, but each generation has its own songs! And then ... everything is known, and the tales of Alexander III "bowed to the West" are alive. Why?
  6. andrewkor
    andrewkor April 8 2017 15: 47
    0
    [quote = kalibr] You are right, but each generation has its own songs! And then ... everything is known, and the tales of Alexander III "bowed to the West" are alive. And it would not hurt the Lyube group to write a song with the refutation of what Catherine the Great Alaska sold
  7. mar4047083
    mar4047083 April 8 2017 17: 30
    +2
    An excellent series of articles on the legendary Russian rifle. The more such articles, the less nasty things addressed to the Russian imeria, the USSR and the Russian Federation. Why should we always be shy that something interacted? This is a normal process. The whole world does this and laughs at our grief patriots when they try to prove that Russia is the birthplace of elephants. The only thing that I do not like is that Nagan was paid money. It was necessary to send him to feed the hedgehogs, as the Chinese do.
    1. Grid
      Grid April 8 2017 18: 57
      +1
      The only thing that I do not like is that Nagan was paid money.

      It had to be done. For with the massive and rapid rearmament of the Russian army with a new rifle, the RI arms factories simply could not cope. Thus, orders were needed abroad, and there the rather cunning Leon Nagan (by the way, he was not a particularly outstanding designer) could well raise a wave in the courts. So they considered it a lesser evil to pay him.
    2. kalibr
      April 8 2017 20: 29
      +2
      This is one of the crimes of the Soviet era. Battering people by hiding information. When the Red Army commanders asked if Sikorsky was the one who made Ilya work in the USA, they answered that there was no Pole. And so in everything! As a result, a whole generation was born and more than one sincerely believing that the best is Soviet. Although 80% of the "Soviet" was not close to him!
      1. Grid
        Grid April 8 2017 22: 09
        +3
        this is one of the crimes of the Soviet era. Battering people by hiding information. When the Red Army commanders asked if Sikorsky was the one who made Ilya work in the USA, they answered that there was no Pole. And so in everything! As a result, a whole generation was born and more than one sincerely believing that the best is Soviet. Although 80% of the "Soviet" was not close to him!

        Dear, are you not raving? Who Sikorsky is, what, when and where did I completely knew, as soon as I began to be interested in these issues. And it was very long before 91. Nobody hid anything from me. I remember there was a series about Tupolev, so there he was quite shown to himself.
        1. kalibr
          April 8 2017 22: 31
          +1
          Happy for you. But still it was. A lot of people did not know about Christie’s suspension on the T-34, Derven and Nin engines on the MIG-15 and Tu-16, ..... there’s not enough room to list further. Yes, and this article itself ... Have you seen a lot of photocopies of these documents in Soviet times?
          1. Grid
            Grid April 8 2017 22: 47
            +3
            But still it was.

            Where was it? Yes, they didn’t really shout about it, but you could find out if you wanted to.
            Have you seen a lot of photocopies of these documents in Soviet times?

            You still don’t see much. But Fedorov’s monograph “The History of the Rifle”, which describes the history of adopting the three-ruler, was completely written and published before the war.
            1. kalibr
              April 9 2017 07: 39
              +1
              Quote: Grille
              quite myself

              You have noticed it well. But something in her photo was not found.
          2. murriou
            murriou April 9 2017 13: 05
            +5
            Quote: kalibr
            Many did not know

            Very many do not know all this now.
            But who is to blame for the fact that most people are lazy and not curious? Make complaints to Mr. Gd, unless laughing

            But I remember that in all the fairly sane sources of the Soviet Union, which I met in Soviet times as a schoolboy in elementary grades, all the information that you present as a discovery was reported in plain Russian from the very beginning. laughing

            I don’t argue, photocopies of documents are a good thing, respect to you and all that, but without details Nagan’s participation in creating a mosquito was also not a secret for me in those days.
            1. kalibr
              April 9 2017 15: 35
              +1
              Quote: murriou
              in all sufficiently sane SOVIET sources that I met in Soviet times when I was still a primary school student, all the information that you present as a discovery was reported in plain Russian from the very beginning.

              But this is not true. I know perfectly well what was written there. I read it myself! I was born in the 1954 year, in a family of hereditary teachers with a good library. And I had books for the 30,40,50 years and later ... So there is no need for fantasies. And then I’ll climb up, get it and write the 6-th article: "Three-ruler" in Soviet historiography. "
              1. murriou
                murriou April 9 2017 16: 13
                +4
                As usual, you baffle me as a standard task: to understand, are you stupid so much, with all your supposed regalia and achievements, or are you cheating so much? No.

                I kind of wrote in Russian that scans of documents that you are so proud of here are a well-deserved reason for pride, but these are details and details that do not change ANYTHING in the heart of the matter.

                And about the role of Nagan in creating the three-ruler a long time ago it was written and chewed in any sane source on the topic, including in Soviet - have you tried how many times they tried to open their eyes to the existence of Fedorov's monograph, for example? lol

                In addition, my comment, which you kind of answer, but you were unlikely to be able to read it and understand what it was all about, relates to your OTHER "discoveries", like Christie’s suspension in the T-34.

                And here it’s either you should be considered a super-impudent cheater, or over, ahem ... * incompetent interlocutor *, but about the history of the creation of the T-34 from the Christie tank through BT, it is written in almost any sane sources of the Soviet era, including the very popular historical TM series.

                Here, offhand - I. Shmelev, TM No. 3-1980:
                The idea of ​​a wheeled caterpillar tank with a chassis developed by Christie was embodied in our country. The first such model, under the designation BT-2, was adopted in absentia on May 23, 1931

                But the 1980 series is essentially a reprint of a series of articles on the same topics from 1970.
                Here we look TM No. 6 for 1970:
                In 1930, the Soviet government bought two copies of the Christie tank without towers and weapons.
                Soviet designers began to improve the machine, and in the autumn of 1931 the BT-2 appeared.

                And here no one makes any secrets from the role of Christie in the creation of the BT series, and only about the genetic connection of the T-34 with BT is written wherever the history of its creation is touched - both in the 1980 series and in the 1970 series, earlier sources I just don’t see the point in digging, but they have never made any secret of this.

                And the price of all your other alleged discoveries is the same. laughing
                1. kalibr
                  April 10 2017 17: 18
                  +1
                  Okay, I found the book of Gnatovsky and Shorin in my library, I found the book of Bolotin, I have to go far for Fedorov, I personally don’t have it. But I'll go ... and I will make material specially for you on them. Specifically, paragraph by paragraph with all the "wordplay" and "emphasis." And then you and everyone else will see it. Bear with a little ...
                  And do not use the words "never" - "never say never!". There are many other books where all this is written differently. Here I will become more free again, I will find it and you will see everything yourself.
                  By the way, what are my "supposedly regalia"? I am an ordinary associate professor at a regional university, a member of the editorial boards of two journals and the author of 36 books. All of them are on the Internet. And yet, I have no regalia.
                  1. Grid
                    Grid April 11 2017 08: 34
                    +3
                    Why walk? Fedorov has long been digitized.
                    1. Grid
                      Grid April 11 2017 09: 24
                      +3
                      http://www.dogswar.ru/armii-mira/vooryjenie/4109-
                      mosin-vs-nagant-ist.html
                      Link to a really interesting article. Without much emotion, but with some analysis of the design.
                    2. kalibr
                      April 12 2017 08: 26
                      0
                      Walking is good for health and then there is no sense of authenticity in the “figure”, there is nothing to hold on to. And here you can safely flip through the yellowed pages, sitting in a comfortable armchair by the fireplace with a cat on his lap. Make notes on sheets of paper. Pleasure. And he can knock on the clave and (a bad word)!
                2. Grid
                  Grid April 11 2017 10: 51
                  +1
                  The same dig, but you got ahead ...
                  1. murriou
                    murriou April 11 2017 11: 06
                    +1
                    The main thing is truth. drinks
                    1. Grid
                      Grid April 11 2017 11: 40
                      +2
                      As anyone.
                      Personally, I, too, am not a supporter of the paradigm: "Russia is the birthplace of elephants," but when they carry frank delirium, it makes me nervous. This author is a very remarkable copy of a former teacher of history of the CPSU. With the corresponding kooky.
                      1. kalibr
                        April 12 2017 08: 27
                        +1
                        There will be, you will have an article: "Mosinka in Soviet historiography." And I have another fee - so thanks for the tip!
          3. Victor Red
            Victor Red 20 May 2017 13: 04
            0
            Quote: kalibr
            But still it was.

            Rightly noticed. And this concerns not only weapons. When I first saw “John Dirov” on TV, I thought, “vile American bastards” torn our Belarus.
            But nevertheless, under whose name is the rifle known to the whole world?
      2. Curious
        Curious April 8 2017 22: 11
        +3
        "Battering people by hiding information." Do you think that this method refers exclusively to the Soviet era?
        1. kalibr
          April 8 2017 22: 29
          0
          Of course not. But then it went against the proclaimed slogans, such as: "Party, mind, conscience and honor of our era!" And then the truth still crawled out and ... 91 year came!
          1. Curious
            Curious April 8 2017 22: 32
            +2
            Doubts torment both the first paragraph and the second. It is difficult to compare with the scope of modern informational fooling. And where did you see a warning on the packaging of a modern information product that consumption leads to dementia? Or an information campaign under the slogan "Obolvanim." Everything is exactly the opposite.
            1. kalibr
              April 9 2017 07: 40
              0
              Quote: Curious
              It is difficult to compare with the scope of modern informational fooling.

              Naturally - progress! But we are talking about the history of the rifle, right?
            2. F.NN
              F.NN April 9 2017 09: 33
              +1
              Quote: Curious
              It is difficult to compare with the scope of modern informational fooling.

              You are not familiar with alternative sources of information? How today can one be fooled by an unwilling to be fooled?
      3. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 April 8 2017 22: 30
        +5
        Quote: kalibr
        When the Red Army commanders asked if Sikorsky was the one who made Ilya work in the USA, they answered that there was no Pole. And so in everything! As a result, a whole generation was born and more than one sincerely believing that the best is Soviet. Although 80% of the "Soviet" was not close to him!

        You look from the perspective of today. And, I remember, my grandfather said that the Soviet government gave him a letter, and if not for that, then he would be a hell of a tanker, and even more so an instructor.
        Quote: kalibr
        generation and not one sincerely believing that the best is Soviet.

        Nonsense does not need to drive. They perfectly understood that they had something better.
        Quote: kalibr
        Although 80% of the "Soviet" was not close to him!

        Where does this figure come from? I won’t go far, right now I’m looking at the Electronics watch of the 80 edition, and I have no complaints about them.
        1. kalibr
          April 9 2017 07: 37
          +2
          That is, if some peasant is given at least some kind of education, is everything fine?
          And in my desk there is a collection of watches from our Penza watch factory and everything does not work!
          Remember, on a personal level, examples on society cannot be extrapolated. Examples work at the level of society. I'm tired of already writing that if everything was perfect 91 would not have come!
          1. F.NN
            F.NN April 9 2017 09: 46
            +1
            Quote: kalibr
            I'm tired of already writing that if everything had been fine the 91st would not have come!

            No no. You can’t prove anything anyway. “Witnesses” are firmly convinced that everything in the USSR was hurt, and if it had not been for the “betrayal of Gorbachev whom they bought” (I wonder what could have been bought by the Secretary General of the CPSU Central Committee), then the USSR would exist to this day. Even more, they “know” it. Therefore, all efforts in this regard are in vain.
          2. Grid
            Grid April 10 2017 14: 13
            +1
            That is, if some peasant is given at least some kind of education, is everything fine?

            No, really, why is this cattle at least some kind of education?
        2. F.NN
          F.NN April 9 2017 09: 39
          +1
          Quote: Mordvin 3
          And, I remember, my grandfather said that the Soviet government gave him a letter, and if not for that, then he would be a hell of a tanker, and even more so an instructor.

          Your grandfather's name was Nostradamus? Or grandmother Wang? Why did you decide that he is somewhat similar to a prophet and that his ASSUMPTIONS can be trusted?
          Maybe in a democratic Russia he would become a more useful figure. How is it known that no?
          Quote: Mordvin 3
          They perfectly understood that they have something better.

          Something? And what was “better" in the USSR? It would be interesting to know.
          Quote: Mordvin 3
          Where does this figure come from?

          I agree, the figure is strained. 95 percent (if not more) of the Soviet was complete garbage.
          Quote: Mordvin 3
          right now I’m looking at the Electronics watch from the 80s

          My condolences.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 April 9 2017 09: 43
            +6
            I’m not going to argue with you, Carbine, because I’m tired of you a long time ago. repeat
          2. your1970
            your1970 April 11 2017 20: 52
            0
            Quote: mordvin xnumx
            Where does this figure come from?
            I agree, the figure is strained. 95 percent (if not more) of the Soviet was complete garbage.
            - That's what this complete garbage has been falling apart for 26 years, but it still is- industry there, at home, some kind of aviation, space again .... Even Soviet was still dragging scrap metal - even though it was complete garbage ....
            And for a snack - show me the imported watches that have been working since 1980, and not in the museum / with the collector - but on the tractor’s hand (my father-in-law) all this time ... The glass is really scratched a lot ...
            He needed time to know - "not checkers" ...
            1. F.NN
              F.NN April 11 2017 21: 30
              +1
              Quote: your1970
              this complete garbage has been falling apart for 26 years, but it still exists

              So did this garbage immeasurably. Here it is.
              Quote: your1970
              And for a snack - show me the imported watches that have been working since 1980, and not in the museum / with the collector - but on the tractor’s hand (my father-in-law) all this time ... The glass is really scratched a lot ...

              Any normal watch will work more and more. I have an Orient somewhere, so they still work. And the glass is not scratched.
              Only this is stupid, this is not a necessary option. Because their moral depreciation has long since occurred (have you heard such a term?). And as a result, it doesn't really matter if they work or not. Wear out anyway shame. Junk because.
              1. your1970
                your1970 April 12 2017 13: 46
                0
                Moral wear and tear on mechanical watches ???? You probably confused them with an iPhone, it’s two years and you have to throw them in a landfill .... And I strongly doubt that you have an Orient of 1980 or your dad was a noble swindler ... .
                1. F.NN
                  F.NN April 12 2017 21: 36
                  0
                  The site is buggy. Therefore, the answer will be like this:
                  1. your1970
                    your1970 April 13 2017 16: 16
                    0
                    Orient in 1980? In the commission? Well-well ..
                    After 1987 and cooperatives, yes, this could be, not earlier ...
                    1. F.NN
                      F.NN April 13 2017 16: 28
                      0
                      Quote: your1970
                      After 1987 and cooperatives, yes, this could be, not earlier ...

                      Have you forgotten foreign students? They studied in the USSR until 1987.
    3. F.NN
      F.NN April 9 2017 09: 30
      +1
      Quote: mar4047083
      Why should we always be shy that something interacted?

      And who is shy?
      Quote: mar4047083
      The whole world does and laughs at our grief patriots when they try to prove that Russia is the birthplace of elephants.

      That, yes. It's one thing to simply borrow, which is normal and correct. And borrowing another thing is to assure everyone that it was borrowed from you.
  8. mar4047083
    mar4047083 April 8 2017 17: 35
    +1
    [quote = andrewkor] [quote = kalibr] You are right, but each generation has its own songs! And then ... everything is known, and the tales of Alexander III "bowed to the West" are alive. And it would not hurt the Lyube group to write a song with a refutation of what Catherine the Great Alaska sold [/ quote]
    The Lyuba group would do well to shut up altogether, with their pseudo-patriotic texts. In addition to evil, such a hack does nothing. Ah, sorry it brings money to the performer.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 April 8 2017 17: 43
      +4
      Quote: mar4047083
      The Lyuba group would do well to shut up altogether, with their pseudo-patriotic texts. In addition to evil, such a hack does nothing.

      Why are you running into Rastorguev? Lyubertsky gave you the face? laughing
  9. mar4047083
    mar4047083 April 8 2017 18: 16
    +2
    Quote: mordvin xnumx
    Quote: mar4047083
    The Lyuba group would do well to shut up altogether, with their pseudo-patriotic texts. In addition to evil, such a hack does nothing.

    Why are you running into Rastorguev? Lyubertsky gave you the face? laughing

    I do not like pseudo-patriotic hack. No talent - make money differently.
    1. kalibr
      April 8 2017 20: 25
      0
      Besides, what is Catherine and when did she sell Alaska to the Americans?
    2. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 April 8 2017 21: 10
      +3
      Quote: mar4047083
      No talent - make money differently.

      They sing quite well. Well, scratch me softly on the udder, for example. wink By the way, I was at their concert, the year in 95, it was a lot of fun.
  10. mar4047083
    mar4047083 April 8 2017 20: 57
    +2
    Quote: kalibr
    This is one of the crimes of the Soviet era. Battering people by hiding information. When the Red Army commanders asked if Sikorsky was the one who made Ilya work in the USA, they answered that there was no Pole. And so in everything! As a result, a whole generation was born and more than one sincerely believing that the best is Soviet. Although 80% of the "Soviet" was not close to him!

    Understand correctly, I am not against the Soviet, Russian, or something else, I personally am for objectivity. What is bad to borrow the best solutions? It is much worse to fight with spears from domestic wood. Just honestly admitting this, we are talking about the fact that we have a brain, we follow the achievements of the enemy, we can reproduce their technologies. If true patriots led us, we would still be running with spears through the forests. With the best spears in the world from domestic spruce or birch.
    1. kalibr
      April 8 2017 22: 27
      0
      And no one is good and does not sweep. That's just making a secret from borrowing is stupid. This undermines the credibility of the authorities and ultimately works against it, when the truth nevertheless creeps out!
  11. F.NN
    F.NN April 9 2017 13: 59
    +1
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    It is interesting that in all documents the name "Mosin" is written with two "ss" - "Mossin"

    A very interesting and previously unknown fact.
  12. mar4047083
    mar4047083 April 9 2017 14: 28
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    And no one is good and does not sweep. That's just making a secret from borrowing is stupid. This undermines the credibility of the authorities and ultimately works against it, when the truth nevertheless creeps out!

    I am for this. Any issue should be approached as objectively as possible. After all, in fact, when the truth comes together, many so-called patriots begin to look very sad. And the worst thing is that they stop trusting everything else. Any civilized country has its own achievements, and misses. Achievements are usually not born from scratch. Borrowing or simply stealing production secrets is an absolutely normal process for humanity. Only absolute idiots go their own way, noticing anything around. Borrowing or stealing a sample is the least part of the matter. The most important thing is to make, implement and improve, the Papuans are not capable of this. In our country, sometimes a stolen sample after revision looked better than the original. Yes, in fact, most of our weapons were borrowed or stolen, and later further developed beyond recognition. Let's not be like our neighbors and look for the ancient Russopithecans who dug up the Black Sea. Let's look at the history of the country objectively, in the USSR there was enough good that is lacking now, there was bad.
  13. mar4047083
    mar4047083 April 9 2017 14: 41
    +1
    Quote: mordvin xnumx
    Quote: mar4047083
    No talent - make money differently.

    They sing quite well. Well, scratch me softly on the udder, for example. wink By the way, I was at their concert, the year in 95, it was a lot of fun.

    It would be better if they combed the udder of someone, than howled and grimaced. The only plus, good is known in comparison only with outright hack.
  14. andrewkor
    andrewkor April 9 2017 19: 22
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    Happy for you. But still it was. A lot of people did not know about Christie’s suspension on the T-34, Derven and Nin engines on the MIG-15 and Tu-16, ..... there’s not enough room to list further. Yes, and this article itself ... Have you seen a lot of photocopies of these documents in Soviet times?

    I knew from the school bench (60s) that the Britons shared Nin with the USSR in exchange for the ZiS-3! Where, suddenly they got L7!
    1. F.NN
      F.NN April 9 2017 19: 26
      0
      Quote: andrewkor
      in exchange for ZiS-3!

      Enchanting. It turns out they somehow needed this UG level of the late 19th century.
      1. murriou
        murriou April 9 2017 22: 30
        +2
        Quote: F.NN
        for some reason they needed this UG level of the late 19th century.

        You, as usual, with your Authoritative Opinion missed half a century laughing
    2. kalibr
      April 12 2017 08: 20
      +1
      andrewkor Link to the source of this deep knowledge: author, book or article, year and place of publication, and preferably a photocopy of pages
  15. mar4047083
    mar4047083 April 9 2017 19: 48
    0
    Quote: andrewkor
    Quote: kalibr
    Happy for you. But still it was. A lot of people did not know about Christie’s suspension on the T-34, Derven and Nin engines on the MIG-15 and Tu-16, ..... there’s not enough room to list further. Yes, and this article itself ... Have you seen a lot of photocopies of these documents in Soviet times?

    I knew from the school bench (60s) that the Britons shared Nin with the USSR in exchange for the ZiS-3! Where, suddenly they got L7!

    And you did not try to think, why do they need ZIS-3.
    1. murriou
      murriou April 9 2017 22: 29
      +1
      Quote: mar4047083
      You did not try to think, why do they need ZIS-3.

      You will be amazed at the deep originality of the answer that is inaccessible to you: for its intended purpose! In the same way, according to which Soviet equipment from the time of the Great Patriotic War there are still many where it is in service or in the warehouses of the reserve, showing records of military longevity. And still sometimes fights.
      1. F.NN
        F.NN April 9 2017 22: 38
        +2
        Quote: murriou
        You will be amazed at the deep originality of the answer that is inaccessible to you: for its intended purpose! In the same way, according to which Soviet equipment from the time of the Great Patriotic War there are still many where it is in service or in the warehouses of the reserve, showing records of military longevity. And still sometimes fights.

        Lord, how primitive you are. And incompetent. And annoying.
        Why write such frank nonsense? Do you stretch your fingers?
        1. murriou
          murriou April 9 2017 22: 53
          +3
          Quote: F.NN
          Why write such frank nonsense?

          The question is for you: why do you constantly carry your signature nonsense, for example, about the appointment of a Borchard / Mauser / TT cartridge exclusively for gopher hunting?
          About the unsuitability of this cartridge (especially the TT version) as an army and supposedly its displacement from use immediately after the end of WWII?
          About the fact that the M-16 is strictly an analogue and a descendant of Tommy Gan?
          About the rest of yours * alternative * generally accepted opinions and classification systems of everything that you meet on the way?

          Remind, perhaps, your other obsessions. For a long time you have not seen anything in the arena, why? Were there interruptions in the Internet? lol
          1. Mikado
            Mikado April 10 2017 09: 48
            +2
            Did he change his nickname again? it seems he had the flag of Canada before? or am I confusing?
            1. murriou
              murriou April 10 2017 10: 35
              +3
              The last three or four nicks, starting with rjxtufh, are like a Frenchman. As before, I do not know.
              A "Canadian" was another epic character, it seems Simpson, but I can be wrong, I have not watched the patient for a long time laughing
              1. Mikado
                Mikado April 10 2017 10: 43
                +1
                aah. I remember one of the overseas guests (with the Canadian flag) was an apologist of the 45th caliber. Throats was ready to nibble for him.
              2. Okolotochny
                Okolotochny April 10 2017 17: 55
                +6
                Yes, he especially "touched" (got) his attachment to the classification of an assault rifle - a 5,45 feces cartridge, etc.
          2. Grid
            Grid April 11 2017 17: 25
            +2
            About the fact that the M-16 is strictly an analogue and a descendant of Tommy Gan?

            The most interesting thing is that if you take the M-16 and STG-44, disassemble and put it side by side, then very many will see the same thing.
    2. kalibr
      April 10 2017 17: 12
      0
      Did we also deliver them to Bedford? And Marmont-Herrington ...
  16. mar4047083
    mar4047083 April 10 2017 08: 02
    +1
    Quote: murriou
    Quote: mar4047083
    You did not try to think, why do they need ZIS-3.

    You will be amazed at the deep originality of the answer that is inaccessible to you: for its intended purpose! In the same way, according to which Soviet equipment from the time of the Great Patriotic War there are still many where it is in service or in the warehouses of the reserve, showing records of military longevity. And still sometimes fights.

    It didn’t hit me at all. This circumstance, says only that the happy owners have no finances or intelligence. You will be amazed if you learn that the armaments of individual tribes of Polynesia still consist of bows and spears .. And, you know, they still fight and hunt with it. And the armament of the Afghan tribes in addition to the "Stingers" found flintlock guns. Yes, and it’s a sin to hide, in 1989, he himself studied a 120mm mortar model 1943. The technique was so secret that it was forbidden to take notes from the audience. Maybe the British ZIS-3 purchased for the museum?
    1. kalibr
      April 10 2017 08: 58
      +2
      In 1988, he worked in the special security guard of Leninka. The drawing album T-27 was secret !!! And in the 30 years, the number of clamps and carts was secret! In my first article in the Political Agitator in the 1984 year on tractor engineering in the USSR, I was offered to either discard numbers or percentages, because together they gave "dynamics". The fact that both numbers and percentages were from the open press and had links to sources The Committee for the Protection of Secrets in the Press did not bother - "you can’t give together."
  17. mar4047083
    mar4047083 April 10 2017 12: 56
    0
    Quote: kalibr
    In 1988, he worked in the special security guard of Leninka. The drawing album T-27 was secret !!! And in the 30 years, the number of clamps and carts was secret! In my first article in the Political Agitator in the 1984 year on tractor engineering in the USSR, I was offered to either discard numbers or percentages, because together they gave "dynamics". The fact that both numbers and percentages were from the open press and had links to sources The Committee for the Protection of Secrets in the Press did not bother - "you can’t give together."

    You, these secret data tried to obtain on a voluntary basis, for subsequent publications. And we were forced to obtain especially secret information about a 43-year-old sample forcibly, for possible practical use. And who did not succeed well in this matter, he could even say goodbye to the walls of his own university. In principle, the process is normal, but I can’t understand why it was secret, perhaps so that the enemies would not have guessed about this squalor. Although it is written here that the insidious enemy acquired the ZIS-3 for its intended use. Well, at least the enemy didn’t receive particularly secret tanks like BT or KV, for further strategic storage in the warehouses of the United States and Great Britain.
    1. kalibr
      April 10 2017 17: 09
      0
      About HF ... At the request of the Americans, they were handed over for testing HF and T-34. The HF gearbox quickly failed. Opened ... seemed similar. They found out - it was ripped off from some of their tractors supplied to the USSR. Now I won’t say more precisely, but on the Web it is, as well as the test result of both machines. But naturally, everything was secret!
      1. Grid
        Grid April 11 2017 11: 46
        0
        And by chance it wasn’t your pen that wrote the book: “Experimental and paradoxical tanks”?
        1. kalibr
          April 12 2017 08: 16
          0
          Of course, "this one also wrote a novel."
  18. murriou
    murriou April 11 2017 11: 50
    +1
    Quote: Grille
    the author is a very remarkable copy of a former teacher of history of the CPSU

    And he is still proud of this, as well as his ability to change horses in time in the midst of the crossing laughing
    1. kalibr
      April 12 2017 08: 18
      0
      And you mean still hiding in ravines as part of the partisan detachment "Glory to the USSR", right? Do not work for the anti-people regime, do not serve the oligarchs ... God, the Lord God nourishes you with the holy spirit, and you receive your salary in holy Soviet rubles, right?
  19. Chizh
    Chizh April 19 2017 02: 26
    +2
    In 1983, when we studied small arms, we were taught at the NVP lesson that Mosin improved the Nagan rifle. But you are talking about fooling and withholding information during the Soviet era, they even gathered to scribble the article. Who knew or who wanted to know.