Its among strangers. Russian ships in the service of the Japanese emperor

107


In our narrations, we move a little away from the theme of Lend-Lease and return to the beginning of the 20th century. The Russian-Japanese war, as it turned out, not badly replenished the ranks of the Japanese fleet due to the Russian fleet. Both due to the rise of unsuccessfully flooded ships, and due to, no matter how shameful it may sound, surrendered.



But the most interesting thing is the conclusions that suggest themselves when studying the material on these ships and events.

Let's start with, perhaps, the famous ship of the Russian-Japanese war.

Armored cruiser 1 rank "Varyag".



Varyag was laid in 1898 year, in Philadelphia, at the shipyards of William Cramp and Sons. In 1900, the ship was transferred to the Russian Navy and entered service in 1901.

9 February 1904 of the year "Varyag" engaged the Japanese squadron under the command of Rear Admiral Uriu. The Uriu squad included 2 armored cruisers (Asama and Chiyoda), 4 armored cruisers (Naniwa, Niitaka, Takachiho, Akashi) and 8 destroyers.

Its among strangers. Russian ships in the service of the Japanese emperor


According to various sources, in an hour-long battle, the cruiser received from 7 to 11 hits, including one breach of 2 square. m. at the waterline. crew losses - 1 officer and 30 sailors killed, 6 officers and 85 sailors wounded and contused, and about 100 people were slightly injured.


"Varyag" returns from the battlefield. Roll on board noticeable.


According to Rudnev, the ship was unable to continue the battle, which served as the basis for returning to Chemulpo and the subsequent destruction of the ship. After the transition to neutral ships, the Varyag was flooded by the opening of the Kingston.

However, 8 August 1905, the Japanese have carried out the rise of the "Varyag". 22 August 1905, the cruiser was incorporated into the Imperial Japanese Navy and put into service after the 7 repair in July, 1907, as an 2 class cruiser called "Soya" (according to the Japanese name of the Laperuz Strait).

More than seven years, the ship was used by the Japanese as a training.

The Japanese made a very smart and beautiful move. Considering that the actions of Rudnev were very close in the spirit of bushido, they taught their sailors with the example of “Varyag”. Thanks to the emperor's highest rescript, the Russian name was left at the stern of the cruiser.



In 1916, the cruiser "Soya" (together with the battleships "Sagami" and "Tango") was bought by Russia. 4 April, the Japanese flag was lowered and 5 April 1916, the cruiser was transferred to Vladivostok, after which under the former name "Varyag" was incorporated into the fleet of the Arctic Ocean.

In February, 1917 "Varyag" of the year went to repair in the UK, where it was confiscated by the British, because the Soviet government refused to pay the debts of the Russian Empire. In 1920, resold to German companies for scrap. In 1925, when towing, the ship hit a storm and sank off the coast in the Irish Sea.

The battleship "Emperor Nicholas I".

Launched in June 1886, the Society of French-Russian factories. Launched 20 May 1889. Launched in April 1891.

[/ Center]

The battleship was a somewhat improved type of battleships "Imperator Alexander II" - with a tower installation, modified ute and the location of boats and boats.

The ship turned out very peculiar, but nevertheless, his service was very intense. "Emperor Nicholas I" participated in the celebrations on the occasion of the 400 anniversary of the discovery of America in New York, kept the watch in the Mediterranean. In 1895-1896, he made the transition to the Far East under the flag of Rear Admiral Makarov. In 1897-1898, the squadron of Rear Admiral P. P. Andreev participated in the international peacekeeping operation in Crete.



3 February 1905 was appointed the flagship of the Separate detachment of ships under the command of Rear Admiral Nebogatov. The ship was commanded by the captain of the 1 rank V.V. Smirnov.

Participated in the battle of Tsushima. Serious damage was not received (except for the 305-mm turret cannon cut off by the projectile), but spent more than 2 / 3 ammunition. Losses made 11 people killed and 16 wounded. Damage to the Japanese battleship Fuji and the armored cruisers Asama and Izumo.



15 May 1905, surrendered on the orders of Rear Admiral Nebogatov.

23 May 1905 of the year was included in the Imperial fleet under the name "Iki".



After a quick repair and painting, the battleship along with Misima and Okinoshima (the former Admiral Senyavin and Admiral Apraksin) supported their troops in the operation to seize Sakhalin Island, and after the war performed the tasks of an artillery training ship.

In 1910, it was upgraded and classified as a coastal defense battleship. Having retained the rank of armadillo, the ship was used as a training school by a young man and was assigned to the base in Yokosuka.



The battleship did not take an active part in the First World War, but was involved in patrol service on its shores.

In October, the 1915 of the Iki was sunk as a target by the Congo and Hiei battle cruisers.


Battleship "Eagle"

The ship was laid in St. Petersburg on May 20 1900, and in the year 1904 was put into operation.



He joined the Second Pacific Squadron, under the command of Captain 1-rank N. V. Jung, took part in the Tsushima battle.



In the battle (according to V.P. Kostenko) he received at least 140 hits, including 42 with shells of 305 caliber and 203-mm. After the battle, a ship with a mortally wounded commander that had lost a significant part of its combat capability joined Rear-Admiral N. I. Nebogatov's detachment and, together with other ships, was captured.







After being handed over and restored, it was modernized by the Japanese (152-mm turrets were replaced with casemates in 203-mm, mine weapons were replaced), the Imperial Japanese Navy became operational as a ship of the line called Iwami 6.06.1905.



August 28 1912 re-trained in the battleships coastal defense 1-th class.

18.08-02.12.1914 - participated in an operation against Qingdao as part of the 2 Combat squad.

09.01-09.09.1918, as part of the 5 Combat Detachment of the 3 Squadron, made an expedition to Vladivostok and Kamchatka.

01.09.1922 g. - According to the Washington Agreement, retrained in auxiliary vessel.

05-09.07.1924 was a target ship for carrier-based aircraft assigned to the Yokosuka airborne wing, which drowned its 240 kg with bombs west of Dzogashima Island near the Miura Peninsula.

Armored cruiser 1 rank "Pallada"

Laid in 1897 year in St. Petersburg, launched on August 26 1899 of the year, put into operation in May 1901 of the year.



In October, 1902 - April 1903 made a transition to the Far East together with the battleship Retvizan and the same type cruiser Diana, where it became part of the Pacific Squadron.

He took part in the Russian-Japanese war. 8 February 1904 is torpedoed by a Japanese destroyer on the outer raid of Port Arthur. After repairs in April, 1904 returned to service. Participated in the battle in the Yellow Sea, after which, with the main part of the squadron, he returned to Port Arthur. 8 December 1904 was sunk by Japanese siege artillery in the inner harbor of Port Arthur.



In September, 1905 was raised by the Japanese and, after repair and refurbishment, was introduced into the Imperial Japanese Navy under the name Tsugaru.



In 1920 converted into a minelayer, in 1922 excluded from the fleet lists.

May 27, 1924 sunk by the Japanese sea aviation during the demonstration bombing in honor of the anniversary of the Tsushima battle.

Battleship Peresvet

Laid by the Baltic plant in St. Petersburg 9 November 1895 g, launched on May 7 May 1898 g, commissioned on 6 August 1901 g.



From October 1903, he served in Port Arthur.

Since the beginning of the Russian-Japanese war took part in the hostilities. Member of the first battle of the Russian squadron 27 January 1904, and the defense of Port Arthur. It was used as a donor for coastal artillery (three 152-mm, two 75-mm, two 47-mm and four 37-mm guns were removed and transported to the coast). Later, guns (with the exception of three 152-mm) were returned to the ship.

During the defense, he ran aground twice during maneuvers (28.01 and 31.03), 13 of March hit the stern of Sevastopol with a bow. Both ships got up for repair.

He took part in the battle in the Yellow Sea, while trying to break through the squadron in Vladivostok.


Damage sustained in combat in the Yellow Sea


Upon returning to the harbor of Port Arthur, Peresvet began to undergo systematic shelling of Japanese artillery. September 19 battleship received 9 shells hits caliber 280-mm. September 28 - 11 hits, September 30 - 4. November 23 Peresvet got five hits with 280-mm projectiles, and the next day 20. After the first ten hits, a strong fire began, and the captain of the 2 rank Dmitriev, who was in command of the ship, was afraid of the explosion of the cellars and ordered the Kingston to open. The ship sat on the ground. The water in the aft reached almost to the upper deck.


Fire at Peresvet



Semi-drowned Peresvet and Poltava in the port Arthur



20.12.1904 g, on the eve of the surrender of Port Arthur, "Peresvet" was blown up by his crew.

This (as well as the damage inflicted) did not bother the Japanese at all, and in fact immediately after the surrender of Port Arthur, they began to lift the ship.



29 June 1905 of the Year The Peresvet was raised by the Japanese, renamed Sagami and solemnly incorporated into the Japanese fleet. The ship made its transition to Sasebo. Repairs in the dock continued until August 17, after which the ship headed for Tokyo Bay to participate in a parade dedicated to the victorious end of the war.



After the parade, the ship again went into repair, this time a major one, combined with modernization. Work continued until 1909, after which Sagami was reclassified to an 1 class coastal defense battleship.



In connection with the need for ships for the flotilla of the Arctic Ocean being created, Russia in 1916 year turned to Japan with a request to sell it to former Russian ships, inherited by the Japanese as war trophies.

The Japanese sold three ships, including the Sagas. 21 March 1916, the ships arrived in Vladivostok. March 27 “Peresvet” was returned to the original name, at the same time it was reclassified into an armored cruiser.

Battleship "Victory"



Launched 9 February 1899 of the year at the Baltic Plant in St. Petersburg, launched on May 11 1900 of the year, put into operation in October 1902 of the year.



It was a squadron battleship of a slightly improved type of Peresvet, which is a hybrid of a cruiser and battleship and intended for long independent actions in the ocean.

Emperor Nicholas II (together with Aurora) launched the water.

October 29 1902 of the Year “Victory” left Libau and headed to Port Arthur as part of Rear Admiral Stakelberg. 10 June 1903, the battleship arrived at its destination.

27 January 104, the 40-minute battle took place between the Russian squadron and the Japanese fleet.
After this battle, the Russian squadron, with the exception of the stranded Retvizan, left for the port-arthur harbor, where it conducted most of the war.



Victory, which had some of the most long-range guns, fired from the harbor several times at the Japanese ships, which bombarded the port and the city because of the Liaoteshan massif, beyond the reach of coastal batteries.

March 31, shortly after the death of the battleship Petropavlovsk on which the admiral Makarov died, the Victory in 10.10 also exploded on the mine.

2 April, while on the inner roads of Port Arthur, the ship with its radio station interfered with the Japanese cruisers, who corrected the fire of their ships around the city and port. It was the first in stories the use of electronic warfare. 29 April caisson was brought under the ship and began to seal the holes. Nine 152-mm and one 75-mm gun at that time were removed and installed on the coastal fortifications.

The battleship took part in both unsuccessful attempts to break through to Vladivostok.

Since 19 September, when the Japanese got the opportunity to fire ships from large-caliber guns, the Victory received many hits of 280-mm projectiles. In many places, the watertight bulkheads were damaged, so water spread throughout the ship. Battleship strongly tilted to starboard. To reduce the list, the commander ordered the flooding of six onboard leftboard corridors, the left engine room and two coal pits. The roll decreased, but the ship all the bottom sat on the ground. 26 November, with the onset of the night, the team left the "Victory".



October 17 1905 of the Japanese raised the "Victory" and solemnly renamed it "Suo".



The next two years the ship spent in overhaul, during which it was partially modernized. For example, the Japanese replaced the Russian Belleville boilers with Miyabar's boilers, got rid of the linear 152-mm guns, changed the composition of anti-mine artillery.



From 1909, the Suo was listed as a battleship of 1 class coastal defense and served as a training ship. At the beginning of World War I, under the flag of Vice-Admiral Kato, the former Russian battleship acted against the German naval base of Qingdao. Later on, up to 1922, he was again a training ship.

In April, the Suo 1922 was disarmed on the basis of the Navy in Kure. Further, it was used for a long time as a block bag and was scrapped only in 1946.

Battleship "Poltava"

Launched at the 15 plant in February February 1892 g, launched on 25 in October 1894 g, put into operation on 3 June 1900. Sister thorn "Petropavlovsk."



In the fall of 1900, the “Poltava” went to the Far East. The ship arrived in Port Arthur 30 March 1901, and later participated in all fleet maneuvers and campaigns.

Since the beginning of the siege of Port Arthur "Poltava took part" in the defense along with the rest of the ships.



10 June attempted to break through the entire squadron (six battleships, one armored and four armored cruisers and destroyers) in Vladivostok. However, having passed all 20 miles and meeting the main forces of the enemy (four battleships, four armored and eight armored cruisers, not counting outdated and small ships), the commander of the Russian squadron Admiral V.K. Vitgeft turned back. The main reason for this, he called the absence on Russian ships of a significant part of artillery of medium and small caliber, transferred to the strengthening of the land defense of the fortress.

Re-entry, when a significant part of the artillery was returned to the site, took place only on July 28 and led to the battle with the Japanese fleet, known as the battle in the Yellow Sea. "Poltava" had a full complement of artillery of medium caliber and, together with "Sevastopol", closed the column of Russian battleships.

In total, five 152-mm and eight 47-mm guns were destroyed during the battle on Poltava, 12 people died (including one officer) and 43 was injured (3 officer). Despite the rather serious damage, the battleship in general retained its combat capability.



The main damage the ship received from the shelling of Japanese guns, being locked in the harbor of Port Arthur.

22 November in 13.30 280-mm projectile hit it, piercing the port side, armored deck and exploding 47-mm projectiles in the cellar. There was a strong fire that heated the bulkheads, and the flooding system did not function, being disabled by past bombings.

An attempt to extinguish the fire with hoses, filling water through the elevator of the projectile and the ventilation pipes, was unsuccessful: the water quickly flowed through fragmentation holes into the corridor of the propeller shaft. From a high temperature around 14 hours there was an explosion of semi-charges of the main caliber, about 2 tons of gunpowder) Many bulkheads were damaged, and water began to flow into ships.

The “Strongman” steamer that came to the rescue was able to put out the fire, but by the 14.45 “Poltava” sat on the ground, plunging almost to the upper deck.



The crew left the ship, and before the surrender of Port Arthur laid the charges in the engine room and artillery towers.

8 July 1905, the Japanese raised the Poltava, and 21 July enlisted her in a fleet called Tango.



In 1907, a more or less repaired hull without artillery and equipment was towed to the shipyard in Maizuru, where the ship was restored. According to Japanese data, a lot of work has been done.



Instead of 16 blown up by Russian sailors, new boilers of the Miyabara system were installed, damaged and missing implements were replaced, pipes, ventilation vents, masts were changed. In particular, the 305-mm Russian guns were replaced with Armstrong's English systems, which were stored as arsenals in the arsenals. Four towers of medium caliber were replaced by those shot from the surrendered battleship Oryol. Instead of 47-mm guns put captured 75-mm guns. The cellars and ammunition supplies were converted to Japanese ammunition, and 305-mm and 152-mm guns received optical sights.

In 1909, the "Tango" was commissioned as an 1 class coastal defense battleship, while at the same time serving as a training ship for combatant sailors and gunners.



In 1915, the discussion began on the issue of the return of Russian ships. The Japanese agreed to pay for 15,5 million rubles. three ships withdrawn from the active fleet: “Tango”, “Sagami” (formerly “Peresvet”) and “Soyu” (formerly “Varyag”). 21 March 1916, the ships arrived in Vladivostok.





“Peresvet” and “Varyag” received their original names and were enrolled in the class of cruisers. And the Tango was renamed Chesma and appointed a battleship, since the name Poltava already carried a new ship.

Battleship coastal defense "General-Admiral Apraksin"

Laid on at the New Admiralty in St. Petersburg 20 May 1895. It was built according to the design of the battleship "Admiral Ushakov", becoming the third ship of this type. The ship was launched on 30 on April 1896 of the year, and the first test of the machines was in the autumn of 1897. Commissioned in 1899 year.



2 February 1905 of the year "General-Admiral Apraksin" as a part of the Separate detachment of Rear Admiral N. I. Nebogatov left Libava to the Far East. Together with the detachment, the battleship made a long transition to the Tsushima Strait, where, as part of the Second Pacific Squadron, he took part in the Tsushima battle.



In battle, the battleship received minor damage. A total of Apraksin killed 2 and injured 10 people. During the night, the battleship repelled the attacks of the Japanese destroyers and managed to keep up with the main forces of the detachment N. I. Nebogatov, which was a feat at maximum speed in 15 nodes. In total for 14 and on the night of May 15, the battleship fired 153 254-mm projectile and 460 120-mm projectiles.

On the morning of May 15, along with the rest of the ships of Admiral Nebogatov’s squadron, the Apraksin lowered the flag and accepted the Japanese prize team.

According to eyewitnesses, the officers and crew of the battleship were ready to fight to the last and die. The only shot that sounded in the direction of the Japanese ships was the sighting shot from the Apraksin. But the order of Admiral Nebogatov was executed. The only thing that the Apraksin’s gunners managed to do was to throw locks and sights from small-caliber guns overboard.

Since the battleship received very minor damage, the Japanese quickly put it into operation.

The ship, renamed Okinosima, unlike its fellow prisoners, took a very active part in the affairs of the Imperial fleet.



The Okinosima participated in the capture of Sakhalin by Japanese troops. After the war, the battleship was assigned to the base in Sasebo as a training ship.

At the beginning of World War I, Okinoshima took part in the capture of Qingdao (as part of the second division of the battleships of the coastal defense of the second squadron), and then until the 1915, served as sentinel functions.

After the end of the war, he was partially disarmed and used as a swimming pool for the cadets. “Okinosima” was deleted from the lists in 1926 year. Then it was bloody and dismantled for metal in the year of 1939.

Battleship coastal defense "Admiral Senyavin"

Launched 8.04.1893, the Admiralty shipyards in St. Petersburg. Launched 10.08.1894 g. - launching. Commissioned in 1898 year.



Fully repeated the fate in the Russian fleet of his sister thorn "Apraksin". He joined the 1-th Separate Detachment of Rear-Admiral N. I. Nebogatov, heading for the reinforcement of the 2-th Pacific Squadron already on the way.



26.04.1905 - joined the 2 Pacific Squadron at Van Phong Bay. Participated in the battle of Tsushima. Surrendered to the Japanese on the morning of May 15 1905

6 June 1905 was enrolled in the Japanese Imperial Navy as a coastal defense ship of the 2 rank with the assignment of the name "Mishima". October 23 together with “Okinosya” (formerly “Admiral Apraksin”) participated in the naval parade on the occasion of the victory in the Russian-Japanese war in Yokohama. December 20 "Misima" was transferred to the reserve of the first category.



In June 1906, the decision was made to re-equip the Mishima. All old 47-mm cannons were removed from the ship, four Kane 76-mm / 50 guns and two YNauchi-47 signal guns / 30 guns were installed. 15 March 1907, due to the completion of the work, he was transferred to the reserve of the first category, and on August 1 was included in the Second Fleet. In its composition "Misima" made several trips to the shores of Korea.

In World War I, Misima took part in the siege of Qingdao. After the war, transferred to a training ship.

In the 1918 year, in the light of Japan’s participation in the intervention in the Far East of Russia, Misima was rebuilt into an icebreaker. In addition to reworking the shape of the nose into the icebreaker, the nose-gun turret was also removed from it and a bridge protected from frost was temporarily installed.



The first hike from Maizuru to Vladivostok and back “Misima” made in February 1919 of the year and was immediately transferred to the reserve of the third category. In February-May 1920 of the year he went to Primorye several times, briefly joining the 5 division of the Third Fleet.

From June 3 1920 of the year “Misima” was returned to the reserve, in early September of the following year transferred from Maizuru to Sasebo and transferred to the security unit of the naval base as a floating barrack. 1 April 1922, he was excluded from the list of warships and transferred to the category of special purpose ships, later used as a mother ship submarines. From November 1924 to January 1925, the equipment intended for the role of an icebreaker was removed from it. October 10 1935 of the Year "Misima" was excluded from the lists and from January 10 1936, it appeared under the designation "Excluded ship number 7". 9 November 1936, he was sunk by the bombs of naval aircraft during exercises at Cape-Misaki.

In conclusion, just a few words as output. Over the years, 100, we heard almost the same thing: Russian ships were outdated and worthless. The Japanese ships were the newest and magnificent, so Japan won the war "for a clear advantage."

But questions arise.

1. Why did the Japanese rush to rearm what they got afloat and use further? These were no good floating coffins!

2. Why did the Japanese, with such persistence, drag everything out of the water that was badly flooded, and moreover, in the case of the battleships from Port Arthur, it was also undermined?

3. The losing (?) Side redeems their ships for gold, and the winner ... sells. And not all, but only that came to the loser. The battleships Apraksin and Senyavin, being not the most successful ships, for some reason did not interest Russia.

The more you analyze what you read, the more you realize that the Russian ships were not so bad. Otherwise they would have remained where they sunk in the harbors of Chemulpo and Port Arthur. Here it is rather in the naval commanders like Vitgefta and Nebogatov.

Here it is believed for some reason. And in bad ships - no. Especially on the example of three battleships, whose purpose was to serve in the Baltic and fight in the skerries. And they went through half the world to Tsushima. And one before Vladivostok ran like to his home.

Good ships were in that Russia.

Sources:
Suliga S.V. Ships of the Russian-Japanese War.
Molodtsov S.V. Battleships of the type "Admiral Senyavin".
Belov A. A. Battleships of Japan.
http://www.navy.su/1850-1917/bronen/
http://tsushima.su/RU
Photos from the archives of Yuri Chernov, Alexei Emelin and Naval History and Heritage Command.
107 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +10
    23 March 2017 06: 44
    [quote] 2. Why did the Japanese with such stubbornness drag out everything that was badly flooded from the water, and moreover, in the case of armadillos from Port Arthur, it was also undermined? [quote]

    This is due to the practicality and hard work of the island nation. For Japan, the fleet is the basis of their defense capabilities, and in geopolitics it was not appropriate to rest on their laurels. Not everyone could like the strengthening of the Japanese in the Far East, so they had to prepare for new challenges of their opponents. The RIF ships were not so bad, but the warriors who controlled them left much to be desired. Nevertheless, the progress in shipbuilding at the beginning of the 20th century was very significant, therefore all Russian trophies were already morally and physically obsolete then. The trophies did not become such a significant increase in the Japanese fleet, however, they compensated for their own losses. They bought them back because they needed ships in the Mediterranean Sea and to accompany convoys with ammunition to Murmansk during World War II. The main forces of the RIF were locked in the Baltic and in the Black Sea, therefore they were forced to stand idle in Sevastopol and Kronstadt, and their teams decomposed and prepared for the world revolution.
    1. +3
      23 March 2017 08: 48
      The trophies did not become such a significant increase in the Japanese fleet, however, they compensated for their own losses.

      absolutely right. Japan didn’t have many armadillos (and two were lost during the war), therefore, if it is possible to quickly replenish the fleet with ships of 1-3 ranks, why not? And how to use it - it’s easy to find, not a combat one, we’ll do a training ship! The Germans, too, during WW2 put themselves into service everything that they captured.
      Photos are wonderful, rare! The information is also given that which had never been seen before. For example, everything I knew about Senyavin was just a three-line article and two photos on the Wiki. And the fact that he was remade into an icebreaker did not even suspect. Thanks to the author! good
      1. +1
        24 March 2017 01: 35
        For the island of Japan, which was not very rich at that time, which built more or less modern Navy thanks to the technical assistance of European countries, mainly Britain, and US loans, any of these ships can be considered a generous gift of fate.
        1. +1
          24 March 2017 14: 37
          absolutely right good although after the Russo-Japanese War, the Japanese learned to make good ships very quickly. But for the 1905-1910th years, these ships would be enough for them.
          1. +1
            24 March 2017 15: 00
            Quote: Mikado
            absolutely right good although after the Russo-Japanese War, the Japanese learned to make good ships very quickly. But for the 1905-1910th years, these ships would be enough for them.

            I agree with you
    2. 0
      23 March 2017 15: 00
      Because the Japanese are scavengers.
  2. +6
    23 March 2017 07: 16
    The photos are good :) Everything else is a bit controversial.
    According to various sources, in a one-hour battle, the cruiser received from 7 to 11 hits, including one hole of 2 square meters. m at the waterline

    I don’t know where figure 7 came from. From the wiki? The Japanese believed that they had hit Varyag 11 times, we - that 14, when lifting the ship, the Japanese described 9 hits, but it should be borne in mind that some of the hits had to come in dismantled structures when lifting. Presumably there were 11
    According to Rudnev, the ship was not able to continue the battle

    The phrase is somewhat ambiguous, because implies that the battle the cruiser could not continue solely according to Rudnev. Although it’s enough to look at the photo of the cruiser after the battle

    And where is he with such a roll? What a breakthrough?
    However, on August 8, 1905, the Japanese carried out the rise of the Varyag. On August 22, 1905, the cruiser was included in the Imperial Navy of Japan and commissioned after repair on July 7, 1907.

    "However already"? The battle took place on January 27, 1904. The cruiser was raised on August 22, 1905, i.e. one year and seven months after flooding. Exactly the same amount was needed to lift the exploding battleship "Empress Maria", which was much larger, lay deeper and in general the operation to lift it was many times more difficult.
    Rudnev reliably disabled the cruiser until the end of the war. And the Japanese were able to repair it at all only in 1907, almost 2 years after the rise.
    The Japanese made a very smart and beautiful move. Considering that the actions of Rudnev were very close in the spirit of bushido, they taught their sailors with the example of “Varyag”. Thanks to the emperor's highest rescript, the Russian name was left at the stern of the cruiser.

    And we continue to search for evidence that the Varangian did not perform any feat
    The more you analyze what you read, the more you realize that Russian ships were not so bad.

    Ships - yes, for the most part they were not bad at all. But alas, the facts presented in the article do not confirm this. for example, almost all squadron battleships by the Japanese were very quickly reduced in class to coastal defense battleships - with the exception of the former Eagle. Those. it was practically like this - our EDBs were listed in the Japanese fleet as battleships while they were in an unfit condition, and almost immediately after undergoing repairs / upgrades they were reclassified to lower rank ships
    The loser (?) Side buys back their ships for gold, and the winner ... sells. And not all, but only that suited the loser.

    This is not true. in fact, the Japanese sold us not what we wanted, but what did not represent value to them
    1. +3
      23 March 2017 08: 07
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      The phrase is somewhat ambiguous, because implies that the battle the cruiser could not continue solely according to Rudnev. Although it’s enough to look at the photo of the cruiser after the battle

      I want to add. Still a sore point, and for the first time this was revealed on the Varyag, and then on the other ships, this is the failure of the gears of the drive of vertical guidance of 152-mm guns. And this is noted by many participants and researchers of the Russo-Japanese War. And these were the main weapons of the cruisers.
      http://coollib.com/b/259210/read - Российский флот Тихого океана, 1898-1905 История создания и гибели
      1. +5
        23 March 2017 08: 26
        Quote: Amurets
        failure of gears of vertical guidance of 152 mm guns

        That is yes. In general, in the history of the Varangian, there are not just a lot, but a lot of white spots. for example - did the Varangian get into someone or not? The Japanese have 2 documents from which this information can be drawn. This is a "description of hostilities at sea 37-38 g Meiji and a Secret war at sea :) According to the official" description "Varangian did not hit anyone, but the problem is that it is very tendentious and directly illuminates the desire to mask the many mistakes of the Japanese in Another war, a top-secret war is a gigantic collection of documents strictly for internal use. Japanese commanders were ordered to write the most reliable reports, including information about their own losses, all this was verified and confirmed during repairs of Japanese ships up to delivery notes materials and so on and so forth, despite the fact that this document was to remain strictly secret. The Japanese first waged a war of this level with a European power and sought to carefully document this experience. Therefore, the Secret War is a credible source.
        But the problem is that the order to create this document appeared after Uriu wrote his report on the battle with the Varangian, i.e. strictly speaking, there is probably no reliable data on this battle in the Top Secret War
        As a result, we can only say with certainty that not a single Japanese warship got up for a long repair after this battle. However, given the terrifying quality of Russian shells, Rudnev’s commandos could have made several hits, which the Japanese carpenters then repaired in half a day. The Japanese honor is a peculiar concept, and if there were no serious injuries (and there were clearly none), then they could easily hide frivolous
        1. 0
          23 March 2017 10: 20
          Preserved reports of the commanders of the Japanese ships, Admiral. Purely internal documents.
      2. +1
        23 March 2017 08: 45
        Quote: Amurets
        this is a failure of the gears of the vertical guidance of 152 mm guns.


        Political sympathies for France, the adoption of their tactical views, weapons systems and ship design (EB Borodino) played a cruel joke with the Russian Navy of that time. So, it's not just about gears.
        1. +1
          23 March 2017 09: 04
          Well, strictly speaking, Armstrong was also far from sinless.
      3. 0
        23 March 2017 08: 50
        The gears of the guns are about Rurik. Varyag had problems with the gear of davits.
        1. +3
          23 March 2017 09: 04
          Quote: Kenneth
          The gears of the guns are about Rurik

          Why? This is all about all six-inch Kane
          1. 0
            23 March 2017 09: 06
            I read Rudnev's reports for a long time
            I don’t remember the mentions there.
      4. +4
        23 March 2017 12: 16
        Quote: Amurets
        I want to add. Still a sore point, and for the first time this was revealed on the Varyag, and then on the other ships, this is the failure of the gears of the drive of vertical guidance of 152-mm guns. And this is noted by many participants and researchers of the Russo-Japanese War. And these were the main weapons of the cruisers.

        With gears and arches VN - a dark matter. At the forum of the old fortification.ru this topic was raised several times: why the same guns have no problems with high-speed weapons when firing at the firing range and at forts, but there are problems with firing from the deck. So far, the most plausible hypothesis seems to be that the matter is not in the design of the guns themselves, but in the reinforcements for them, and if globally, then the problem is in incorrectly determining the main distances of future battles before the REV.
        That is, the reinforcements for the guns were calculated on the basis of the pre-war beliefs that the battles would be fought at distances of up to 30 kbt, and that the fire with large air-guns would be short-lived. As a result, the reinforcements for the guns were calculated under the load from the shots with low HEI.
        In real life, the vertical component of the recoil (shooting with high UVN) turned out to be higher than the calculated one - and the reinforcements began to "surrender". As a result, the deck with the gun mounted on it began to "play", and the design of the HV mechanism began to act on unintended dynamic loads. The result is a breakdown of the mechanism.
        When firing from the shore, all the loads were perceived by a much stronger and tougher concrete or wooden base, which also lay on the prepared “pillow”.

        Moreover, the problems with the VN mechanisms when firing with large IWs were not only for Kane. Here is what happened in the towers of "Relight":
        The strongest body shocks at elevation angles of 25-30 ° made us fear for the strength of the structures, and the electrical failure, which failed due to these shocks, could only be restored due to the excellent qualifications and the dedicated work of the galvanizers, which quickly eliminated the numerous malfunctions.

        And this despite the fact that the shooting was not even carried out at maximum UVN.
    2. +1
      23 March 2017 08: 11
      Indeed, how much can one discuss the actions of Rudnev and Varyag against the background of ships whose actions are not in doubt.
      1. +1
        23 March 2017 08: 32
        Quote: Kenneth
        Indeed, how much can one discuss the actions of Rudnev and Varyag against the background of ships whose actions are not in doubt.

        Quote: Kenneth
        That is yes. In general, in the history of the Varangian, there are not just a lot, but a lot of white spots. for example - did the Varangian get into someone or not?

        I agree with you both completely. Not the actions of Rudnev, but the condition of the Varyag cars and boilers, here is a big white spot.
        1. 0
          23 March 2017 08: 40
          Well, who should not be responsible for Rudnev’s ship’s combat effectiveness? The fact that the cars in a deplorable state were precisely Rudnev and to blame.
          1. +6
            23 March 2017 09: 02
            Quote: Nehist
            Well, who should not be responsible for Rudnev’s ship’s combat effectiveness? The fact that the cars in a deplorable state were precisely Rudnev and to blame.

            I’m sorry, but why are you a bright man, didn’t you bother to read any historical book on this topic?
            Rudnev took the cruiser with broken-up vehicles - this is a fact. What about how to return the reliability of vehicles to the cruiser puzzled not only in the Far East but also in St. Petersburg - a fact. And that Rudnev made repairs to the ship while the ship was in an armed reserve - a fact. That the cruiser specifically ordered spare parts for the Obukhov plant (but did not ripen before the ship left at Chemulpo) is again a fact. What do you want from a person? He was given an unusable materiel, the available capacities in the Far East could not put this materiel in order, but, of course, the rudnev was to blame
            1. 0
              23 March 2017 09: 20
              That is, they could on Retvisan but not on Varyag? Strange cars are the same ... Retwizan was also waiting for spare parts and this did not stop him from going at full speed! You and I already discussed this somehow last year, it seems ... And at the time of the adoption of the warp, the cars were quite operational. Yes, during operation, the flaws of the machines were found out, but for some reason it was not critical for Retvisan.
              1. +2
                23 March 2017 10: 33
                Quote: Nehist
                Yes, during operation, the flaws of the machines were found out, but for some reason it was not critical for Retvisan.

                Retvisan had problems with boilers. Not about them, but about the fact that trying to invest in weight loads and not pay fines for overload and lack of speed on the final tests of the ships, Kramp extremely lightened the Varyag’s hull, hence the problems with the cars. R.M. Melnikov: "The cruiser Varyag." The Japanese were also tormented with Varyag’s cars, which is why they offered this cruiser for sale.
              2. +4
                23 March 2017 10: 42
                Quote: Nehist
                That is, they could on Retvisan but not on Varyag?

                Once again :)) There is a FACT - on Varyag, the boilers were broken up by the arrival of Rudnev. You can argue for a long time about whether it was inevitable or not, whether Nikloss could be operated normally or not, but in any case, even if we assume that the Russians are to blame for the poor condition of the boilers, this was done before Rudnev, and not Rudnev. And how do you think Rudnev should have repaired these boilers?
                This is the first. But there is also a second - the fact is that the Nikloss boilers on Retvisan and the Varyag were different, the fact that they were of the same system does not make them the same, so to say that if everything was okay on the retwizan, then on the Varyag it should have been impossible. But the most important thing is the third.
                Retwisan from the USA went to the Baltic Sea. There, he revealed problems with boilers, the pipe burst, 6 people were scalded, three were killed and the battleship was being repaired.
                And Varyag with the chassis was more or less normal before sending it to the Far East. In addition, Baer, ​​the commander of the cruiser, was told in white by the Russians - to go on an economic course, to give a full stroke only if necessary. Instead, he annealed, going 20-21 knots for days, or even 23 knots. Well, he was annealed to the point that already in the Red Sea the cruiser’s cars were amazed.
                You know, boilers are a complicated thing. The British had problems for several years after switching from fire tube boilers to Belleville. And Parks bluntly writes that many of the Admiralty’s recommendations for boiler maintenance turned out to be nonsense. And for us, Nikloss was an innovation, well, we didn’t have this! If machine teams had learned to work properly with boilers on an economic course, you see, then they would be able to maintain normal full. But no, Baire wanted to go fishing.
                Quote: Nehist
                Retvisan was also waiting for spare parts, and this did not stop him from going at full speed!

                Is this when he was honored? :) During the REV, he did not develop more than 14. Those. maybe he could, but not forced.
                1. +1
                  23 March 2017 11: 18
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  And Varyag with the chassis was more or less normal before sending it to the Far East. In addition, Baer, ​​the commander of the cruiser, was told in white by the Russians - to go on an economic course, to give a full stroke only if necessary.

                  About boilers, this is understandable. * About CMU Varyag One of the drawbacks of the "Varyag" was the unreliability of the power plant. The cruiser spent a significant part of the pre-war service in Port Arthur at the mooring wall in endless repairs. The reason was both in the careless assembly of machines and in the unreliability of the boilers of the Nikloss system. * Http: //russian7.ru/post/7-zabluzhdeniy-
                  o-boe-kreysera-varyag / Here is another material on the Varangian, perhaps controversial, but thought-provoking.
                2. 0
                  23 March 2017 11: 58
                  But what about the conclusions of the 1903 commission?

                  On November 15, 1903, for two and a half months before the start of the war, the Varangian high-speed tests were carried out at Port Arthur by a commission specially created for testing mechanisms and inspecting boilers on ships of the Port Arthur squadron. The commission included the flagship mechanical engineer A.A. Lukyanov (chairman), port mechanical engineer V.N. Shilov and a group of mechanics from different ships of the squadron. Under the pairs were 29 of the 30 boilers available on the Varyag. The tests lasted three hours. The rotational speed of the propeller shafts was brought to 130 rpm, which corresponded to a conversion speed of 22,1 knots. Based on the test results, an act was drawn up with the entry of relevant numerical data. This is also a fact !!!!
                  1. +4
                    23 March 2017 12: 19
                    Quote: Nehist
                    This is also a fact !!!!

                    The fact is, yes, who is arguing :)))) But here is one more fact - you have cited only part of the quotation. The full quote sounds like this
                    The tests on November 15 were attended by members of a special commission established to test the mechanisms and inspect boilers on the squadron ships: the flagship mechanical engineer A. A. Lukyanov (chairman), port mechanical engineer V. N. Shilov and a group of mechanics from the squadron ships. The tests lasted three hours. The rotation speed from 80 rpm was brought to 130, but then reduced to 50 - bearings warmed up again.

                    There is a nuance. You are most likely quoting Abakus / Chornovil now, but he generally quoted Melnikov - only he removed from the quote a part of the phrase that did not coincide with his position that the Varyag allegedly had sufficient speed:
                    now with regards to
                    Quote: Nehist
                    brought to 130 rpm, which corresponded to a conversion speed of 22,1 knots

                    Another little lie from Abacus
                    On October 16, reporting to Zolotaya Gora that the Sivuch gunboat remains the oldest in the raid, the cruiser again anchored. As before, on board were the chief mechanical engineer of the port V.N. Shilov, the engineer of the port, 16 locksmiths and 6 Chinese workers. Nearly 12 hours in all directions, the cruiser cruised the coastal waters of Port Arthur, either slowing down, then increasing speed and counting 157 miles on the lag. At noon, the rotational speed was brought to 130 rpm, but the vapor pressure dropped from 15,8 atm to 12 atm. Having put into operation the remaining eight boilers, they increased the pressure to 14-15 atm and gradually increased the rotation speed to 140 rpm, then after an hour they reduced it to 125 rpm, and by the end of the test they were again brought to 140 rpm 8.
                    The speed in this case, due to the cruiser overload, apparently did not exceed 20,5 knots.

                    And here is the opinion of MTK
                    MTK came to the conclusion that while Nikloss’s boilers remain on the Varyag, its speed, even with full serviceability of the machines, would not exceed those 20 knots that were obtained when the cruiser was re-deepened during tests in Port Arthur
                    TsGA Navy, f. 417, op. 1, d. 21298, l. 280.
                    1. 0
                      23 March 2017 12: 54
                      I am familiar with the conclusion of MTK! There are even earlier conclusions about the allegedly unsuitability of Nikolos's boilers. But again, there is no compelling fact that Retvizan that the gunboat (I do not remember the name on the move) did not experience such problems. In principle, Belleville’s unkillable boilers were killed on the RIF at that time.
                      The Varangian had two general repairs of the CMU !!! This is how it was necessary to exploit them to kill in the trash?
                      1. +3
                        23 March 2017 13: 48
                        Quote: Nehist
                        But again, there is no compelling fact that Retvizan that the gunboat (I do not remember the name on the move) did not experience such problems.

                        Well - have not you experienced? Three stokers were welded tight in the Baltic. And after leaving Retivisan from the Baltic at full speed, no one really drove, at least I don’t remember something like that.
                        Quote: Nehist
                        In principle, Belleville’s unkillable boilers were killed on the RIF at that time.

                        Sorry, but crap is all with the "unkillable" Belleville. Belleville is also quite killable. The problem is that boilers of any design required a thorough and specific care for this type of care. But all kinds of “operating instructions” were still out of fashion, all this equipment was new, untested, in general ... I tell you absolutely seriously - the British had problems with Belleville boilers for several years, then they only adapted. This is Parks, classic, anyway. Just the British did not pound their heels in the chest about this. They, unlike us, do not like to stick out their difficulties.
                        For the most part, our machine teams trained on fire pipes in general, it is clear that the transition even to Belleville was difficult, if a normal officer came across, then everything was fine, and if Beelzebub is weak, then the boilers are in the trash. But to Belleville we have already more or less adapted to the REV. And here - hello I am your aunt! Nikloss! And as you want, so serve it. And again - if smart mechanics came across, everything could be fine - well, for example, in addition to Belleville, we also had Schulz-Tornicroft boilers. On Askold, for example. And nothing - Askold flew pretty fast. And Norman stood at Bogatyr ... And if the British had problems with switching from a fire tube to Belleville near their best plants in the world, so what do you want from ships with boilers Belleville, Norman, Schulz-Tornicroft and Nikloss driven by us to the edge of geography?
                        Quote: Nehist
                        The Varangian had two general repairs of the CMU !!! This is how it was necessary to exploit them to kill in the trash?

                        It would be more correct to say that his CMU was in such a state that 2 overhauls did not help. The Varangian from the end of 1902 could not show anything in terms of speed.
              3. +1
                23 March 2017 11: 51
                Quote: Nehist
                Strange cars are the same ...

                This is not a pipelined assembly. First, shipbuilders shamanized with the engine, trying to bring to the necessary conditions. And then ship mechanics did the same.
        2. 0
          23 March 2017 08: 48
          Rudnev did not go on a breakthrough and could not go. There are no doubts about the condition of the boilers and the training of the team. Rudnev showed the flag in the execution of the charter and retreated until drowned. A Korean generally spent the whole battle in the auditorium. This battle is not close to compare with the battle of the Vladivostok squadron or the cruiser oly at Tsushima. Compare at least the damage to Aurora.
    3. 0
      April 12 2017 12: 06
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      Those. it was practically like this - our EDBs were listed in the Japanese fleet as battleships while they were in an unfit condition, and almost immediately after undergoing repairs / upgrades they were reclassified to lower rank ships


      There is a practical explanation for this - coastal defense battleships are not characterized by long transitions.
      The reason for the “re-qualification” in the coastal battleships is the lack of spare parts for the “Russian battleships”: for vehicles, for mechanisms - i.e. the coastal defense battleship “carefully” develops a resource, not moving too far from the bases, taking upon itself the responsibility of protecting the metropolis.
  3. +2
    23 March 2017 08: 02
    The Japanese began to use the Varangian as a training ship on which such an inscription was made "On this ship we will teach you how to love your homeland"
  4. 0
    23 March 2017 08: 13
    We supplied the Japanese. For many years to come. And then they also earned by selling us obsolete pelvis
    1. 0
      23 March 2017 08: 37
      Quote: Kenneth
      We supplied the Japanese. For many years to come.

      This is not entirely true. To defend a sea-vulnerable archipelago, maritime communications, overseas acquisitions of Japan, many ships are needed. There are few resources of their own, therefore, each vessel armed with a cannon goes into business with them. The mistress of the seas did not welcome the reinforcement of RI in the Far East, but she was also an opponent of Japan’s imperial ambitions. For further expansion, the samurai had to create their own scientific and production base and their shipbuilding school. I must say that they succeeded in this, were able to create outstanding examples of battleships and aircraft carriers. And the repair, re-equipment and operation of trophies inherited from the REV brought nothing but losses to the treasury. Over the next 15 years, the entire trophy fleet was scrapped.
      1. 0
        23 March 2017 08: 42
        At the time of the capture, these were largely the latest ships. Their presence allowed the Japanese to focus on the modernization of the fleet.
        1. 0
          23 March 2017 08: 51
          Quote: Kenneth
          Their presence allowed the Japanese to focus on the modernization of the fleet.

          And if they had not invested in the repair and restoration of a sunken and battered fleet, would they not have modernized their fleet?
          1. 0
            23 March 2017 09: 33
            Of course they would. But part of the capacity would be spent on the construction of the necessary coastal defense ships, etc., useful in the economy. And so the Russians gave
            1. 0
              23 March 2017 11: 37
              Quote: Kenneth
              But part of the capacity would be spent on the construction of the necessary coastal defense ships, etc., useful in the economy. And so the Russians gave

              This dick knows him. Why would they first begin to increase the number of military units, and only then would take care of the modernization of their Navy. The REV ended with a complete victory at sea, they drowned the RIF and captured them, in the near term no one threatened them. A dozen captured vessels did not make any weather here. A warship cannot simply be stored as a chest in a pantry, it is in an aggressive environment and must be constantly serviced and repaired. The Japanese could not anticipate the rapid progress in shipbuilding and therefore put in operation trophy ships. There was no economic feasibility in the restoration of trophies. Perhaps it made sense to use them to train crews.
              1. 0
                23 March 2017 11: 45
                I don’t understand what you’re trying to oppose. Or do you want to complement what I wrote ....
                1. 0
                  23 March 2017 12: 28
                  You claim that in the absence of Russian trophies, the Japanese would have started riveting armadillos and other dishes yesterday. And that would delay the modernization of their fleet. There were no prerequisites for this, because war with Russia and with someone else at sea was not foreseen in the next 20 years, but in 1905. the British had already laid dreadnought-type LCs with higher characteristics than armadillos. Considerable money was spent on restoring battered and sunk ships. It would be better to spend them on the purchase of technology, equipment, training of engineers in order to build more modern ships. The restoration of trophies, on the contrary, was contrary to the theme of the modernization of nuclear weapons. If there were no trophies, the topic of Japanese modernization would go faster.
    2. 0
      23 March 2017 14: 39
      Yes - chronicles of shame. recourse The Russo-Japanese War shame our fleet for many years. Surrender of battle-worthy ships in such a quantity our history did not know before.am The Varangian is the only one who at least somehow decently looks against this background. Plus the shameful end to Port Arthur's courageous defense .... In general, in vain I read this article. It’s one thing just to name, and it’s another to look at the photographs of which ships the cowards and traitors captured by the Japanese during that war. request
      1. 0
        24 March 2017 19: 36
        Quote: g1v2
        Surrender of battle-worthy ships in such a quantity our history did not know before

        “Hoping for the help of the Almighty, I am in the hope that the fearless Fleet of the Black Sea, eager to wash away the ingloriousness of the frigate" Raphael ", will not leave him in the hands of the enemy. But when he is returned to our power, then reigning this frigate is no longer worthy to carry the Flag of Russia and to serve along with the other vessels of our fleet, I command you to put it on fire "
        . (what did the Russian bombing cannons at Sinop, unconsciously fulfilling the order of Nicholas)
        Yes many. Not war, but almost a chronology of defeats, even worse than in the Eastern War ..
        We were defeated by the "Japanese teacher" .. before that, the German taught a lesson to France ..
        As soon as the “coach” changed, the country changed, even yesterday's “allies” of Japan became our “allies” - and the Japanese crashed. I think that they got even in 1945.
        The defeat and shame of surrender you need to know and remember .... these are your mistakes on which you need to learn.
        And the Varangian should have been preserved in Vladivostok (and then made a museum like Mikas)
        1. 0
          24 March 2017 19: 41
          It's not about defeat itself. This is normal. Today you are winning. and you can lose tomorrow. Shamefully not a defeat. and surrendering serviceable ships and weapons to the enemy, especially when the possibilities of resistance are far from exhausted. The statutes in this regard are extremely clear. Th shame is not a defeat at Tsushima. Shame in the behavior of the command and crews of ships. There is only one thing to call it - decomposition. hi
  5. +4
    23 March 2017 08: 22
    I would not put Witgeft and Nebogatov on a par.
    1. +2
      23 March 2017 09: 25
      Nebogatov also does not need to be trampled heavily. Yes, he committed a crime by the letter of the law, but ... let him be judged by those who have been in such a terrible situation. There was a tremendous psychological breakdown after an unheard of pogrom. Let's try to take the place of Nebogatov. A squad of slow-moving galoshes, obviously incapable of breaking away from not only destroyers and light cruisers, but even the main enemy forces. Continue the fight? It makes no sense, just death without any chance of harming the enemy. Open kingstones and flood in the open sea? And what about the crews with the wounded, if the rescue equipment is broken up? Give commanders freedom of action? De facto it happened. Who was able (Emerald, Diamond and destroyers) went on a breakthrough. Shoot yourself? This option saved the honor, but again did not change anything and smacked of irresponsibility for the fate of the entrusted subordinates. So, again, not everything is clear ...
      1. +4
        23 March 2017 10: 20
        Quote: libivs
        Nebogatov also does not need to be trampled heavily.

        Necessary.
        Quote: libivs
        Yes, he committed a crime by the letter of the law, but ... let him be judged by those who have been in such a terrible situation.

        An enquist fought against many times superior forces, Lebedev fought alone against 6 cruisers, Mikluha fought, Shein fought to the last in a hopeless situation, Bukhvostov generally led Alexander the third in a suicide attack right in the center of the Japanese system .. in general, those who fought, and did not give up there were many.
        Quote: libivs
        Continue the fight? It makes no sense, just death without any chance of harming the enemy.

        Where does this conclusion come from? By the way, there is a possibility that Nicholas 1 was perhaps the most productive ship from the point of view of hits. as far as one can judge, it was equipped with still old, "heavy" shells that worked relatively well.
        Victory really was not to be seen, but the battle was possible.
        Quote: libivs
        Open kingstones and flood in the open sea? And what about the crews with the wounded, if the rescue equipment is broken up?

        To Japanese ships. They took the wounded
        Quote: libivs
        So, again, not everything is clear ...

        Just the same. Even the overwhelming advantage of the enemy is not a reason to abandon the battle
        1. 0
          23 March 2017 11: 07
          Andrew. I do not condone Nebogatov at all, but sometimes it’s still useful to try to look at the problem from a different perspective. As for the wounded, let's say ... But how can they be transferred to Japanese ships and then continue the battle or drown? It is simply not possible. Before the approach of the Japanese ships and the launching of their boats, you need to stay on the water for more than an hour (I served in the Navy for an urgent period and, in principle, I have an idea about this). Yes, and it is unlikely that the Japanese would passively observe how we sink our ships. Nebogatov was disgraced, but nonetheless, the personnel were saved. At least one positive moment of this sad disaster with shameful surrender.
          1. +1
            23 March 2017 11: 26
            Quote: libivs
            And regarding the wounded ...

            Well, let's transfer the same experience to the Red Army units that fought in the encirclement in 1941. If you think you need to surrender 3 battleships (Apraksin, Senyavin, Nikolai) because in total they had 35-40 wounded people on board (of which far not everything is hard) then in German boilers, near Moscow and in Stalingrad, we should have simply capitulated
            Quote: libivs
            And how to transfer them to Japanese ships and then continue the battle or drown? It's just not possible

            We put in boats and pass. This “Eagle” was beaten up in the trash, while the same “Senyavin” had one hit in the aft tower and shot down by the fragments of a hafel. Nikolai also suffered little, and Senyavin too. It is impossible to imagine that no boats survived on them
            Quote: libivs
            the approach of Japanese ships and the launching of their boats need to survive on the water for more than an hour

            even if the boats were damaged, no one interfered with making them look like rafts.
            Quote: libivs
            Yes, and it is unlikely that the Japanese would passively observe how we sink our ships.

            That yes, they would not. But actually it's a war
            1. 0
              23 March 2017 11: 55
              Comparison with WWII is probably somewhat incorrect. Then, all the same, there was a certain sense to fight to the end, drawing off a fair amount of the enemy’s forces and assets. And in the last phase of the Tsushima battle, this sense did not exist at all, since it was already clear that everything ... The war at sea was completely and irrevocably lost and the three old galoshes no longer had any special value militarily and their surrender only damaged the honor of the flag, which of course is not good, but nonetheless ...
              1. 0
                27 March 2017 20: 07
                Quote: libivs
                The war at sea was completely and irrevocably lost, and the three old galoshes no longer had special military value and their delivery only harmed the honor of the flag, which of course is not good, but nonetheless ...

                The honor of the flag, the honor of the uniform, the honor of the state ... someone went on a suicide attack with this, and for someone, FOR YOU, including this is an empty phrase! However, there will always be a liberal nonsense to justify the most shameful acts and always there will be people delivering pink snot about humanity and universal values! People choosing the path of the military. Must be aware that they are not going to play pranks, and what could be the end! And your pink snot about the crew, of course, from the point the liberal’s view is very out of place! Like the Rain’s proposals that Leningrad had to be handed over, like hundreds of such arguments! I’ll give you one of them. Does your name the frigate Rafail say anything? And how did contemporaries perceive its surrender, and later generations? But in the days of the “democratic frenzy” of the 90s, the justifications for this disgrace that you have just started have begun. And in exactly the same words! Your name by chance, not Vladislav Krapivin? He’s in the novel Bronze Boy "justifies Stroinikov with the same words: In the face of fifteen enemy ships, Stroinikov suffered a “soul breakdown” and he realized the futility of such a death. Despite the decision made by the officers, given the hopelessness of the situation, the ship was handed over to save the lives of more than two hundred sailors. That is, the killer officers decided to fight, and the good-natured father-commander decided to surrender. Having regretted the sailors! Shame on such reasoning! negative fool Moderators, return the cons! Well, please!
          2. +4
            23 March 2017 14: 48
            Nebogatov was absolutely legally sentenced to death. And the fact that she was replaced by a term, and then by clemency is a crime in itself. The result was the surrender of key fortresses in WWI. Because everyone understood that you can give up and there will be no consequences. The Russo-Japanese War was one big sabotage and betrayal, but Nebogatov stood out against this background. am
      2. +3
        23 March 2017 14: 43
        Surrender to serviceable ships is cowardice and betrayal. According to all charters - both the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union. And there is only one punishment - the death penalty. Here and there. If you have chosen the fate of the military, you should be ready for its outcome. And everyone has an excuse, like a hole in the back. am
  6. +1
    23 March 2017 08: 23
    confiscated by the British, as the Soviet government refused to pay the debts of the Russian Empire
    ... But nothing that the British during the Civil War took so much good that they would have been enough to build a whole fleet .. And they refused to return stolen goods ..
    1. +1
      23 March 2017 08: 31
      Quote: parusnik
      But nothing that the British during the Civil War took so much good that it would be enough to build a whole fleet .. And they refused to return stolen goods

      Where did such fantasies come from?
      1. +1
        23 March 2017 08: 45
        From the materials of the Genoese Conference in 1922
        1. 0
          23 March 2017 09: 13
          Specify, please. These materials are very large :) It’s terrible how interesting England could get this out of the future of the USSR :))) For example, I know for sure that the British exported a lot of what they had supplied as assistance to Russia for conducting WWII. What else?:)
          1. +1
            23 March 2017 10: 17
            Dexterously you are ..Please specify ..... Well, yes, and those who exported to name for exactly .. laughing During the intervention, 2686 thousand pounds of various cargoes were exported for a total amount of over 950 million rubles in gold. The entire military, merchant and fishing fleet of the North became the extraction of the interventionists. During the occupation, they exported 2686 thousand pounds of various cargoes totaling more than 950 million rubles in gold ... "... It would be a mistake to think that throughout this year we fought on the fronts for a cause hostile to the Russian Bolsheviks. On the contrary, the Russian White Guards fought for our cause. This truth will become unpleasantly sensitive from the moment the white armies are destroyed and the Bolsheviks establish their rule throughout the vast Russian empire. " W. Churchill The World Crisis. Chapter 12 ... In addition, you yourself indicated that the materials of the Genoa Conference ... are great ... that is. You don’t want to delve into them .. and offer to do it to me .. I don’t want to read it yourself .. But if I write what and how and even name it exactly .. smile It all the same will not suit you .. hi
            1. +2
              23 March 2017 11: 07
              You see, you are making a statement. I ask for confirmation, this is normal practice on the Internet. Because I really can’t shovel all the materials of the Genoese conference in order to prove that there was nothing like that. And you, since you are referring to these materials, you have seen, read them and can give a specific indication of exactly where and what to look for.
              Instead, you quote a common phrase
              Quote: parusnik
              During the intervention, 2686 thousand pounds of various cargoes were exported for a total amount of over 950 million rubles in gold. The entire military, merchant and fishing fleet of the North became the extraction of the interventionists. During the occupation, they exported 2686 thousand pounds of various cargoes totaling more than 950 million rubles in gold ... "...

              Apparently, its source is not the Genoese conference, but Wikipedia, at best - the book of the Red Banner Northern Fleet :))))
              Think about it yourself. The construction of 4 Baltic dreadnoughts, together with all spare parts, and so on, cost about 137 million rubles in gold. Where and what will you collect in the same Arkhangelsk for 950 million? :)))) Yes, the entire local fleet, together with Arkhangelsk, 1/10 of this amount was not worth it.
              It’s another matter - if you note that the words “the invaders were taken out” and not “the British took out”. Considering how much bread and other things Germany removed from Ukraine .... then even 950 million gold doesn’t work laughing
              1. +2
                23 March 2017 12: 22
                Yes, it’s not a question of where to look for http://elib.shpl.ru/en/nodes/22180#page/1/mode/gr
                id / zoom / 1 Genoese conference. 1922. Materials of the Genoese Conference: (Preparation, reports of meetings, work of the commission, diplomatic correspondence, etc.). - M., 1922.
                The British did not return the "Varangian" for political reasons, economic reasons .. The British were present in the South Caucasus and Central Asia .. Somehow it turns out that what is done wrong with regard to tsarist Russia is taken with indignation .. What was done with respect to Soviet Russia with understanding and justification, such as 70 years, no one had a homeland .. For their interventionists came. they took theirs and left ... what nyashki..but..you..not understanding those pretended and pretended not to understand .. good laughing And how much bread did Germany take from Ukraine from February to November 1918? .. In Ukraine, two crops a year were removed ..? laughing
                1. +1
                  23 March 2017 13: 00
                  I read the materials of the Russian commission on the intervention. Not a single number! laughing Only the epithets "Huge, terrifying damage" :)))
                  Quote: parusnik
                  The British did not return the "Varangian" for political reasons, economic reason

                  So what? The amount of debt of the government of tsarist Russia + unpaid supplies during the war years + loss of British capital from the nationalization of enterprises of the Russian Empire on one side, and the Varangian on the other? :)))
                  Quote: parusnik
                  For their interventionists have come. they took theirs and left ... what nyashki ..

                  Well, why? They grabbed more, but only what they obviously took to any fleet was not enough. They would have taken, there was simply nothing to take :)
                  Quote: parusnik
                  And how much bread did Germany take from Ukraine from February to November 1918? .. In Ukraine, two crops a year were removed ..?

                  Well, it’s clear that this is Arkhangelsk! There are tsar’s tricks at every step, full of fiery diamonds
                  1. +1
                    23 March 2017 13: 32
                    [B]
                    So what? The sum of the debt of the government of tsarist Russia + unpaid supplies during the war years + loss of British capital from the nationalization of enterprises of the Russian Empire on one side, and the Varangian on the other?:))) [
                    /b.BIZ..but they were detained according to the results of the Genoese conference..for the fact that Soviet Russia refused to pay debts .. and the United Kingdom to compensate for the losses of Soviet Russia ..
                  2. +2
                    23 March 2017 13: 33
                    [B]
                    I read the materials of the Russian commission on the intervention. Not a single digit! [
                    /b.BIZ..I envy .. almost 500 pages in one fell swoop .. all beaten ..
                    1. 0
                      23 March 2017 14: 33
                      Quote: parusnik
                      almost 500 pages in one fell swoop

                      Why 500? Just looked at the report of our representatives on the intervention, there are only a few sheets
                  3. +1
                    23 March 2017 13: 36
                    [B]
                    Well, why? They grabbed more, but only what they obviously took to any fleet was not enough. They would have taken, there was simply nothing to take :) [/
                    b] .. I don’t particularly insist that you can build a loot ... you can build a fleet .. I guessed .. But apparently you don’t have to assume .. you have to relate to different invaders with a soul .. love them respect ... if they come again , say guys .. I’m my bourgeois .. smile
                  4. +1
                    23 March 2017 13: 45
                    Well, it’s clear that this is Arkhangelsk! There are tsar’s tricks at every step, full of fiery diamonds
                    ..And that’s understandable .. No .. is it Ukraine ... where the crop is twice a year ... removed .. laughing He threw the grain .. right there 10 spikelets gave .. The British and others did not rob, nobly took their belongings .. U. Churchill with his confessions .. how he fought against Soviet Russia .. it's just geopolitics .. although almost nothing has changed almost now ..
                  5. +1
                    23 March 2017 13: 51
                    Well, why? They grabbed more, but only what they obviously took to any fleet was not enough. They would have taken, there was simply nothing to take :)
                    ..All the same they took it ... Of course ... because they took it in Arkhangelsk..yes it was clearly not enough to build a fleet..But the British were jackal not only in Arkhangelsk .. I wrote about this above .. maybe in other regions too looted ..but looted ..
                    1. 0
                      23 March 2017 14: 35
                      The amounts that you brought in the comments, they are unlikely to be able to collect, even having available the entire territory of the Russian Empire :)
                  6. 0
                    23 March 2017 23: 05
                    From Vladivostok on October 23, 1922, G.K. Stark took 30 ships and vessels to Genzan! Then Busan-Shanghai-Manila! Some of the ships died in the crossings, and the rest were sold in MANILA!
              2. +2
                23 March 2017 12: 26
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Think about it yourself. The construction of 4 Baltic dreadnoughts, together with all spare parts, and so on, cost about 137 million rubles in gold. Where and what do you type in the same Arkhangelsk for 950 million? :))))

                Most likely, this includes the cost of goods purchased from the Allies and settled in those very famous Arkhangelsk warehouses (due to the low capacity of the railway).
                Arkhangelsk remained the only port in the European part of Russia, open for relations with the outside world. It was through him that millions of tons of weapons and military equipment were to come from the western allies of Russia in the Entente for the needs of the Russian army. To ensure their transportation, an urgent alteration of the narrow gauge railway to a wide gauge was started. At the same time, on the bank of the Northern Dvina opposite Arkhangelsk, a new port of Bakaritsa was laid down, where goods were to be loaded into railway wagons, and 25 miles from the city, closer to the sea, the Savings port was arranged. Not having time to pass through the bottleneck of the Arkhangelsk Railway (its re-alignment to a wide gauge dragged on until January 1916), the goods were stored right on the shore. As a result, huge warehouses of explosives, shells, military equipment and property grew in ports.

                In 1917, there were loads, in 1920 - no longer. So - we write at a loss from the intervention. smile
                Actually, it was these warehouses that became one of occasions for intervention in the North - "prevent the transfer of arms and property to Germany".
                1. +1
                  23 March 2017 12: 47
                  So I’m talking about the same thing - the British mostly confiscated what they themselves had brought :)
                  1. +2
                    23 March 2017 14: 45
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    So I’m talking about the same thing - the British mostly confiscated what they themselves had brought :)

                    The question is different - were the contents of the warehouses paid for by Russia (at least at the expense of loans)?
                    If it was, then it really is a loss from the intervention. For in this case, the owner of the property was Russia / RSFSR.
    2. 0
      23 March 2017 08: 46
      Quote: parusnik
      .And nothing that the British during the Civil War took so much good

      This Czechoslovakians exported decently, but this would hardly have been enough for a new fleet. On the contrary, the Bolsheviks struck a bolt on royal debts to the French, British, Belgians and there were really large sums there.
      1. +3
        23 March 2017 08: 49
        Yes, of course .. Czechoslovakians robbed, and the French, British, Americans, Japanese stood on the "skheher" ...
  7. +2
    23 March 2017 08: 50
    The battleship "EAGLE" ... after the restoration was modernized by the Japanese ... the towers of 152 mm were replaced by casemates in 203 mm

    Six towers with 152-mm guns were replaced by six single deck installations with 203-mm guns.
  8. +1
    23 March 2017 09: 37
    I absolutely agree with the author that the bad thing in those Russian ships was precisely the admirals who surrendered to the enemy it was like laying a car between the seat and the steering wheel in a car. Admiral Makarov was energetic and courageous there.
    1. +2
      23 March 2017 10: 03
      Makarov took a squadron with 5 ammunition-friendly EDB and left after his death from 2 !!!! A great achievement is nothing to say, to make glaring mistakes in tact, the loss of the Terrible and the Sinner ... Sending the destroyers in search without providing their cover ... Maneuvering with the same course for several days in front of the enemy than brought his death closer. Did he not understand the danger of mines?
      1. +1
        23 March 2017 10: 54
        Quote: Nehist
        . Did he not understand the danger of mines?

        I understood perfectly. Moreover, he was a supporter of this type of weapon. Remember the war with Turkey in 1877-1878 and the sinking of the steamboat Intibah
        1. 0
          23 March 2017 11: 40
          That is exactly what I had in mind. Given that he was a generally recognized specialist in the mine war, and there are such mistakes !!!
      2. +2
        23 March 2017 12: 35
        Quote: Nehist
        Makarov took a squadron with 5 ammunition-friendly EDB and left after his death from 2 !!!!

        Sorry, but this statement is completely wrong. Makarov took the squadron with 5 TECHNICAL DEFENSE armadillos. But they were not combat-ready from the word “no way”, which was shown by the very first sea trips to joint evolutions.
        Quote: Nehist
        achievement is not something to say

        Of course, it was better to sit like a mouse under a broom waiting for the commissioning of “retweisan” and “Tsesarevich”, then go into battle and catch 5 Japanese shells for each hit. That was fighting efficiency!
        Quote: Nehist
        make blatant errors in tact

        Call at least one
        Quote: Nehist
        the loss of the Terrible and the Guardian ...

        And what is the big mistake there?
        Quote: Nehist
        Sending destroyers in search without providing their cover ...

        What the Japanese repeatedly did during the REV and many countries after the REV. What is the tragedy?
        Quote: Nehist
        Maneuvering the eight with the same course for several days in full view of the enemy than brought his death closer. Did he not understand the danger of mines?

        What do the Japanese guess at night to throw mines at the site of his maneuvers? It’s easy for us to talk about active mine productions, but actually they were not common practice at that time.
        And how then you order to name Togo, the winner of the Russian fleet, who, AFTER the incident with the death of Petropavlovsk, drove his battleships along Arthur along the same route?
        1. 0
          23 March 2017 13: 11
          The Japanese covered all their destroyers with cruisers, because you are familiar with jacar, as I understand it, the confidentiality of Sov. Secret is taken from there, there are orders for each operation. The cover was provided by blocking Arthur cruisers. The Japanese traveled in international waters where mining was forbidden by the rules of the war, well, they did not expect that they would be treated the same way they did not give a damn about all conventions. Even technically sound 5 is better than 2 is limited to operational. Knowing the approximate time it’s possible to meet the cruiser destroyers, you can send just for one and combat training about which Makarov so pleased
          1. +1
            23 March 2017 14: 05
            Quote: Nehist
            The Japanese covered all their destroyers with cruisers, you are familiar with jacar, as I understand it, the confidentiality of the Soviets is taken from there. There are orders for each operation

            So this, in fact, is a distant cover. Askold standing in the PA about the same and carried out.
            Quote: Nehist
            Even technically sound 5 is better than 2 is limited to operational.

            Nothing is better. In addition, I did not understand how you got 2 partially combat-ready, while we had combat-ready Peresvet and Poltava plus a limited-fit Sevastopol that could not go more than 10 knots.
            Quote: Nehist
            Knowing the approximate time it’s possible to meet the cruiser destroyers, you can send just for one and combat training about which Makarov so pleased

            Where to send something? The same guardian was caught at dawn, the Terrible himself stood up to the Japanese in the wake even at night. How and which cruiser would help them?
            1. +4
              23 March 2017 15: 16
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Where to send something? The same guardian was caught at dawn, the Terrible himself stood up to the Japanese in the wake even at night. How and which cruiser would help them?

              EMNIP, the whole chain of events that ended with the demolition of Petropavlovsk in a mine, began precisely with the fact that in the cover of the returning MM was appointed KR Bayan, which stood in the harbor. If it were not for the delay in leaving, he would have managed to get to the battlefield before the approach of the Kyrgyz Republic.
              On the other hand, on the external roadstead there was a duty officer of the Kyrgyz Republic (EMNIP, "sleepy goddess"), who could also catch the battlefield on time.
              If the Bayan had been withdrawn even before the approach of MM, or if the duty “goddess” had been sent, then Makarov would not have had to withdraw the squadron in parts and in such a hurry. When neither he nor the other officers had time to ponder last night’s events ("if our MMs came up just now, then who was rubbing off our coast at night - and exactly where we usually maneuver?"

              In real life, because of the delay with the Bayan approach, the Japanese managed to put forward twice or three times more detachments against our forces each time.
      3. +3
        23 March 2017 12: 39
        You still remember how Makarov rushed with 2 EDB and 3 KR to support the “Bayan” - and as a result went directly to the main forces of Togo. If the Japanese hadn’t the task "make Russians stand in the eight", it’s not a fact that all the ships of the Makarov group would have reached Port Arthur.
        1. 0
          23 March 2017 12: 46
          Quote: Alexey RA
          If it weren’t for the Japanese’s task of “getting the Russians into the top eight,” it’s not a fact that all the ships of the Makarov group would have reached Port Arthur.

          Sorry, but what would hurt them? In ZhM the Japanese in 4 hours did not knock him out one armadillo, but here?
          1. +2
            23 March 2017 14: 52
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Sorry, but what would hurt them? In ZhM the Japanese in 4 hours did not knock him out one armadillo, but here?

            And I specifically wrote “ships”, not “armadillos”. smile
            It somehow happened that one of the cruisers turned out to be the end at Makarov. EMNIP, the distance from it to the Japanese was about fifty cable.
            1. 0
              23 March 2017 19: 33
              Quote: Alexey RA
              It somehow happened that one of the cruisers turned out to be the end at Makarov. EMNIP, the distance from it to the Japanese was about fifty cable.

              Well, I would turn on the afterburner and go for the EDB, what problems? :)
              1. +2
                24 March 2017 10: 02
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Well, I would turn on the afterburner and go for the EDB, what problems? :)

                Sleepy Goddess afterburner ... I want to see this! smile
                The terminal in the column of Makarov’s detachment was Diana. And from her to the Japanese there were 38 kbt.
  9. +3
    23 March 2017 10: 40
    Domestic ships were not at all such junk, as is customary to write and talk about.
    Armadillos of the Poltava type were not inferior in their characteristics to the Japanese type of Fuji and Yamashiro.
    But, in historiography, a different opinion has been established, even despite the fact that ALL researchers write about an incomplete belt, protected only by shields of an average caliber, a non-firing main caliber and a speed of 15 knots.
    When it is mentioned that one of the domestic ships was protected by Harvey’s armor, then this is unambiguously negative. But the fact that both Asahi and Shikishima carried the same Harvey armor is usually not advertised.
    Japanese armored cruisers are a separate song. My lovely.
    Already Balakin in his monograph listed their shortcomings, including the main one for the so-called cruisers: low real speed, lasting from 15 to 17 knots, but still, for some reason they are considered almost the best in their class at the time. Could these, with the permission of the "cruiser", get away from the modern battleship?
    To this it is worth adding low fire performance, poor-quality armor on the first pair (a real test was held in Tsushima) and constant problems with the CMU in the last four.
    However, on the latest armadillos too. And then, many people like to note the problems of our fleet in connection with the introduction of a new type of water-tube boilers. Allegedly, we had these problems, but the Japanese (British) didn’t. It was: the British were tormented with water-tube boilers at both Canopus and Formidable and were able to get rid of their childhood diseases only in the third series. Accordingly, the Japanese suffered. Not without reason, the Asama and Tokiva were considered the fastest of the six Japanese armored cruisers. With fire tube boilers. As many as 17 nodes for a long time.
    Domestic armored cruisers, long-range reconnaissance deserved unambiguously negative ratings.
    Allegedly, the displacement is excessive, the reservation is not enough.
    And Suliga in his monograph on Japanese heavy cruisers gives them, according to the Japanese, a slightly different assessment.
    And the British believed (noted in many books about cruisers) that the minimum acceptable displacement for an ocean cruiser was about 6000 tons.
    As for the reservation, the karapas reliably protected the CMU, and this reservation scheme was no worse than the reservation scheme of the American WWII cruisers.
    1. +1
      23 March 2017 13: 54
      Already Balakin in his monograph listed their shortcomings, including the main one for the so-called cruisers: low real speed, lasting from 15 to 17 knots


      An article or book primarily expresses the views of the author. I think Mr. Balakin S.A., if he accidentally reads this comment, he will not have any complaints about me. The list of literature that he used to write Asama and Others was very interesting, but at that time there were other editions of the Journal of the American Society of Marine Engineers; United States Marine Designers Association; “Yearbook of naval defense” England, “Naval engineering” Germany, there is data on problems with BK machines, but they were not so tragic. There are links to the used brand of coal, which led to a decrease in speed. Turn me over the data that these cruisers could not develop more than 15 to 17 knots. Perhaps there are some other publications of those years, but they are not known to me. If you tell me, I will be grateful.
  10. +2
    23 March 2017 11: 03
    I read a comment about why take the battle if the ships are old and slow. From the point of view of a civilian, this may be true, but let the officers were there, these are the people who, in principle, took the oath to win or die in battle, they pay him for it, they train him and feed him for it. The peasant plows without straightening his back for him and to act otherwise it is a tribunal actually. In the first Russian-Turkish case, the enemy was not a goal higher in Chesmenskaya Bay under the guise of batteries. Yes, it’s easy to talk about the exploits from the sofa, but the military man is a professional killer of enemies and, accordingly, must understand that they can kill him
  11. +1
    23 March 2017 13: 46
    that's interesting whatever you say. in the book by Tsushima in detail about the Soviet-minded sailor Novikov-Priboy describes in detail that all the ships were critically damaged and therefore were captured by Nebogatov in order to save the lives of the remaining crew members. and here they write that the losses were not significant, and the ships were small, small, and completely damaged! so where is Carl really?
    1. +3
      23 March 2017 14: 30
      Quote: NOC-VVS
      so where is Carl really?

      The truth is that Novikov, the whole battle was in the hospital "Orel", wrote a science fiction work that reflects reality very little. He has a huge number of factual errors and unsubstantiated conjectures, which he gives as the ultimate truth.
      On the whole, the book by Novikov-Priboy cannot be recommended to the reader in any way. who wants to get acquainted with the Tsushima battle.
      1. 0
        23 March 2017 15: 11
        Well, he wrote then to Tsushima, based on the early manuscript of Kostenko, just when he was once again imprisoned under the sovereign power.
        1. +1
          23 March 2017 19: 29
          Quote: Nehist
          Well, he wrote to Tsushima based on the early manuscript of Kostenko

          Which the Tsushima battle held in the same infirmary as Novikov laughing
  12. 0
    23 March 2017 13: 50
    Dear Roman, I certainly understand that the Tsushima book is very thick and you are too lazy to read, but I beg you to read it. then they threw everything they had there. almost completely disarmed the Baltic. as in the first Chechen they threw everything they had. Now I’m reading a book about Rokhlin, big Russia, but then there were no troops, entire military towns remained empty in the formidable, from the last forces and opportunities they took
    1. +1
      23 March 2017 14: 31
      Quote: NOC-VVS
      dear Roman, I certainly understand that the book of Tsushima is very thick and you are too lazy to read, but I beg you to read

      What for? The book does not reflect reality from the word "general"
  13. +1
    23 March 2017 13: 58
    If the article is about our large warships that the Japanese got after the REV, then the others were probably worth mentioning.

    Why did not the author mention Retvisan, Bayan and Novik?


    PS
    Although it may be better, a little less picking in the emotional wounds associated with that war and the results of the actions of our fleet ...
  14. +2
    23 March 2017 14: 27
    The article is interesting, informative, but somehow not systematized, chaotic and far from complete. There is no battleship "Retvisan", no cruiser 1 rank "Bayan", cruiser 2 rank "Novik". Missing all destroyers that fell to the Japanese. But the "Resolute" captured by the Japanese is the only captured Russian ship participating in the Tsushima battle on the Japanese side. He even “distinguished himself” by ramming and sinking the Japanese destroyer.
    The article talks in some detail about the future fate of almost every ship, but it is not said that the "Peresvet" died in a mine near Port Said, on the way to Russia.
    By "unsystematic" I understand the fact that first you need to talk about all the battleships, then about the coastal defense battleships, then the cruisers should go, and then finish the article with the destroyers.
    And the rest of the article is "+"
  15. +1
    24 March 2017 11: 11
    Great article! Thank you very much. In addition to pain and resentment for ours, the speed, volume and preparedness of the Japanese in rescue and engineering operations are surprising. If anyone has any knowledge of how the operations to raise ships were carried out and whether Japan had special vessels for this, I beg you to share it.
    1. +1
      24 March 2017 14: 23
      Quote: looker-on
      If anyone has knowledge of how operations were carried out to raise ships and whether there were special vessels for


      All that the Japanese raised did not lie deep in the harbors or even towered above the surface of the water. So they raised the Varangian, the rest, apparently, lay in the same way. In any case, it was necessary to raise this out of necessity, and not for the sake of idle curiosity.


      The Varyag’s corps is already afloat. Well, it doesn’t look like a swallow at all. No supercrawls on the rise near are not observed.
  16. +2
    24 March 2017 11: 56


    Painting by A. A. Tron - "Raising the St. Andrew's flag on the" Varyag "in Vladivostok."
  17. +2
    24 March 2017 14: 38
    It wasn’t too good at even sinking their ships, let alone the Japanese.

    [/quote.BIZhttp://tsushima.su/RU/warsru/riwru/rjw1te
    ru / war1905-gibel-eskadry / The only ship of the 1st rank that escaped the shameful fate of sinking in a shallow harbor was the battleship Sevastopol. On the night of November 26, he switched to an external raid into the White Wolf Bay, where he began to prepare for breaking the blockade. To prevent this, the Japanese attacked several destroyer units. During the week during the hot night battles, they fired about 80 torpedoes at the battleship, and during this time the Teikoku Kaigun lost two destroyers (No. 42 and No. 53) and 35 people were killed, including 5 officers. "Sevastopol" received one torpedo hit and sat aft on the ground. It was impossible to close the huge hole under the current conditions, and on December 20, the day General A.Stessel signed the act of surrender of Port Arthur, the battleship was flooded at great depths, which excluded the possibility of its lifting by the enemy [quote]
    1. +2
      24 March 2017 19: 58
      Quote: Silvio
      was flooded at great depths, which excluded the possibility of its rise by the enemy

      Essen's order ... and the desire to sink as expected.
      Before that, everyone wanted to make a breakthrough by the old man in the fog, but did not grow together with mine boats ..
      A Korean was blown up for example. In the cases of Novik, they did not think that they would give half of Sakhalin with the cruiser.
      Perhaps the point is in the orders of the authorities, which directly forbade the destruction of sunken ships (before that they were motivated by the fact that they would raise themselves, as soon as the PA’s release)
      The war was, to say the least, very unsuccessful. Defeat usually makes you think hard and correct mistakes. I repeat that the German teacher taught France, we were taught a lesson already in Japan (before that, half a century ago, European) ...
      They took revenge (well, if I may say so), too, after almost half a century-1945 ...
      that's just the REV is still some kind of stain ...
  18. +1
    24 March 2017 22: 33
    And there would be a conspiracy to break through, I think many would have gone to Vladivostok. Although surrender is shameful, especially the Varangian (legend), but not for me to judge, perhaps Admiral Makarov would have brought glory to the empire if he were alive.
  19. +3
    26 March 2017 12: 16
    I couldn’t understand at school ... how people who surrendered, losers, ineptly commanded this campaign, this defense. , this battle, they told us that they are heroes ..
    I understand that the pill had to be sweetened .. but not in this case.
    it was that lesson-edification .. that gouging has always been and will be. it is necessary to call things by their proper names. therefore, we and Yeltsin are the savior of Russia at which Russia gained independence. and Judah Gorbachev saved the people from alcoholism .. some kind of substitution of concepts, hero-coward, genius. alas.
  20. 0
    29 March 2017 13: 20
    It is amazing how fast they lifted, brought to life and put into operation!
  21. 0
    11 October 2017 15: 44
    You should not denigrate either Admiral Rozhdestvensky, let alone Witgeft. They have long since departed into another world ...