The last Soviet heavy tank destroyers

51
During the Second World War, heavy self-propelled guns played an important role on the battlefield. It is not surprising that after its completion, the development of heavy SACs, one of the main tasks of which was the fight against enemy armored vehicles, was continued by designers from different countries. All the more surprising is the fact that only single projects reached the manufacturing stage in metal, and none of these formidable machines went into the series. And the Soviet Union, in which the heavy SAU 268 Object was created, was no exception.

Weight limit



As with heavy tanks, it was assumed that promising Soviet heavy self-propelled guns would be very well-protected vehicles with long 152 mm guns. The first requirements for such installations date back to 1945, although the real work began a year later. They were designed on the basis of the tanks Object 260 (IS-7) and Object 701 (IS-4).

For self-propelled installation on the basis of the EC-4, which had the designation Object 715, it was supposed to use 152-mm gun M31 developed by plant No.172, the same for ballistics with the 152-mm gun of high power BR-2. The same tool was planned to be used for the project of self-propelled installation of the Kirov factory in Leningrad. How exactly it was called is not completely clear. Some sources indicate the index Object 261, others call it Object 263.

Later, the plant design bureau No. 172 developed an even more powerful weapon, which received the designation МХNUMX. In general, it repeated the design of the M48 and had a similar muzzle brake, but the initial velocity of its projectile was reduced to 31 m / s. For such a powerful weapon, the destruction of any enemy tank or bunker was not a big problem. The same gun was supposed to be placed in a half-open self-propelled installation Object 1000.

The main obstacle in the way of all these plans was the delay in work on the EC-7 and problems with the development of mass production of the EC-4. The last activity on both self-propelled units is dated 1947 year, after which the work froze "until better times." Which did not come.


Installing 152-mm gun M48 in one of the heavy self-propelled guns. Which project of ACS is depicted here is currently unknown.

18 February 1949 of the year issued a decree of the Council of Ministers of the USSR No. 701 – 270cc, according to which the development and production of heavy tanks weighing more than 50 tons ceased. It is natural that, following the EC-4 and the EC-7, they ordered to live long and develop self-propelled units based on them.

According to the same resolution, SKB-2 Chelyabinsk Plant and a branch of the experimental plant No. XXUMX (Chelyabinsk) were given the task of developing a heavy tank with a battle weight of no more than 100 tons. Works that received the drawing cipher 50, led to the creation of a heavy tank EC-730. The draft design of the new heavy tank was presented in April 5 of the year, and already on September 1949 at ChKZ they finished the assembly of the first prototype.
It was quite logical to develop a self-propelled unit on the same base, but the designers were not in a hurry with this. Still alive was the memory of how the work on self-propelled guns based on EC-7 and EC-4 ended. They only gave it back at the moment when it became clear that the 730-th object turned out to be quite successful, and its adoption into service was not far off.


The SAU 116 Object (SU-152P) is being tested. The 152-mm M53 gun mounted on it was used by the special design and technological documentation center of the Kirov factory as a base for the gun of the new ACS

In the literature devoted to the T-10 and machines based on it, the beginning of an assault self-propelled installation usually dated July 2 of the year 1952. In fact, the chronology of events is somewhat different. The fact is that self-propelled installation is usually done under a well-defined artillery system. And the gun that eventually “registered” on a machine known as the 268 Object was not even in the project 1,5 of the year after the start of work. But work on this tool began much earlier.

From this point of view story The new heavy SAU began as early as 1946, when, in parallel with the M31 and M48, the design bureau of Plant No.172 began the development of the 152-mm M53 gun. This gun with the initial velocity of the 760 projectile, m / s, was developed for self-propelled installation. The 116 Object, known as SU-152П. And the gun, and the installation itself was built in 1948 year. Tests showed insufficient accuracy of the system, and the project was closed. Now SU-152P can be seen in the exposition of the park "Patriot". So, it was this artillery system in a slightly modified form that was intended as a weapon for a promising self-propelled gun.


Draft design of a modified 152-mm M53, 1952 gun for installation in heavy ACS

The work on the new car, which initially did not have any designations, was initially headed by P. P. Isakov. The development of the plant was carried out by the team of the Special Design and Technology Bureau (OKTB) of the Leningrad Kirovsky Plant. The car was designed in three versions at once, two of which were markedly different from the 268 Object, which is now quite widely known. The fact that the design began before July 1952 of the year is eloquently indicated by the dates in the draft designs of the 2 and 3 versions - 25 of April 1952. By that time, the basic parameters of the machine were known. One of the main requirements for the ACS was the weight limit: its combat weight should not exceed 50 tons.


ACS based on the 730 Object, option # 2. By the way, the first heavy self-propelled propulsion unit of the fighting compartment was worked out by N.F. Shashmurin as early as 1944

Option №2 projected heavy SAU provided aft accommodation combat compartment. Due to this, the length of the case was reduced to 6675 mm. The entire nose of the car occupied the engine compartment, so that the driver-mechanic there was no place. He was put in the fighting compartment, where he was located on the right in the direction of travel. With this arrangement, the review of the driver turned out to be unimportant.

Such inconveniences were compensated by a relatively small tool overhang for the dimensions of the machine - 2300 mm. The thickness of the forehead of the cabin was from 150 to 180 mm, the sides of the 90 mm. The upper front hull sheet had a thickness of only 75 mm, but at the same time its angle of inclination was 75 degrees. In short, the car had quite a decent protection. The crew of the car consisted of four people. To facilitate the work of loading the shells were in a special drum behind the gun.


Project No. 3, which provided for the installation of a gun in a rotating turret, April 1952

The third variant of the self-propelled unit looked no less original. By and large, it was not even a self-propelled unit, but a tank, which, due to a more powerful and heavy weapon, had to reduce the thickness of the armor.

However, the difference between the 730 Object and the projected SU-152 (as this machine is indicated in the documentation) is quite significant. The tower for ACS designers developed from scratch, and for a normal installation of 152-mm guns in it, the diameter of the shoulder strap had to be increased from 2100 to 2300 mm. The maximum thickness of the armor tower reached 200 mm. The turret was located and ammunition, the size of which remained the same - 30 shots. The main ammunition was supposed to be placed in the aft niche, which slightly facilitated the work of the loader.

Because of the new tower, the building had to be changed, the length of which, compared to 730, grew by 150 mm. The thickness of the upper side plates was reduced to 90 mm, and the bottom - to 50 mm, this was done to preserve the combat mass within 50 tons. For the same purpose, the thickness of the top front and stern sheets was reduced to 60 and 40 mm, respectively. A twin machine gun on a self-propelled one was not envisaged, but the anti-aircraft installation of a large-caliber machine gun CPV was to be installed at the top.

Thus, by the summer of 1952, the design of a self-propelled unit based on the “730 Object” did not start, but had already acquired completely shaped outlines. The order of the Council of Ministers of the USSR from July 2. 1952 of the year rather "legitimized" the work on the car, and also introduced a number of amendments to the design works that were already under way. Around the same time, the self-propelled unit received a drawing index 268, and the theme itself became known as the 268 Object.

Soviet "Jagdtigr"

The literature indicates that a total of 268 variants of the machine was developed for the 5 Object. This is both true and not true. The fact is that the two options mentioned above were developed before the final tactical and technical requirements were obtained. And they didn't even wear the 268 cipher.

Therefore, in fact, we are talking about three versions of the machine, two of which were an evolution of the previously developed draft designs. Both of these options in a revised form were ready in December 1952. In this case, the artillery system, which was supposed to be installed in these machines, still continued to be designed.

According to preliminary calculations, the initial velocity of her projectile should have been 740 m / s. The basis was taken self-propelled gun M53, which was reworked using separate nodes 122-mm tank gun M62-T. According to calculations, the total mass of such a system, which had no official designation, was 5100 kg.


Option №4 differed enhanced armor and more spacious fighting compartment, where there were already 5 crew members

The revised draft of the second version of the self-propelled unit, which received the serial number 4, was prepared by the Special Design Bureau of the Kirov Plant for December 18 of 1952. This time, the machine already had the 268 cipher, and J. Kotin appeared as its chief designer. Externally, the 4 version was very similar to the 2, but in fact the differences were significant.

For a start, the length of the body is increased to 6900 mm, that is, almost to the length of the 730 Object. At the same time, the length of the gun barrel for the dimensions of the body decreased by 150 mm. The designers refused from the mowed fodder sheet, which had a positive effect on the internal volume of the fighting compartment. Such changes were extremely necessary, because, according to the new technical requirements, the crew of the car was increased to 5 people.

The second loader, located behind the commander, became a new member of the crew. The commander himself received a new commander's turret with a rangefinder, and in front of him appeared a machine-gun with a "curved" barrel. A little altered and place the driver, who received a new viewing devices. The system with the "drum" remained in place, while the authors of the conceptual design emphasized that due to the large internal volume it is possible to install more powerful weapons. In parallel with the increase in the volume of the fighting compartment, the body armor increased. The thickness of the lower frontal hull sheet was raised to 160 mm. The thickness of the cutting forehead remained 180 mm, but the bevels 160 mm thick were made at a large angle. With all this, the weight of the machine remained within 50 tons.

10 December 1952 of the year was completed a revised version of the 3 version of the ACS, which received the 5-th serial number. The length of its hull was reduced to the level of an 730 object (6925 mm), while the upper side plates were turned, which became bent. The body forehead has also changed a little, but the thickness of these parts has remained unchanged. The preservation of the hull length within the base tank was due to the installation of the B-12 – 6 engine, which, by the way, eventually appeared on the heavy T-10М tank. Later, he also migrated to the enlarged tower epaulet.

The tower designed for 4 people has undergone alterations. The commander here also received a new commander's turret, while the curved machine gun was given to the loader by the OKTB engineers of the Kirov factory. By the way, both redesigned projects inherited the installation of the KPV anti-aircraft machine gun.


Option №5 differed from the previous version №3 alongside rework and crew increase to 5 people

Both of these options, however, did not go further than the outline studies. In January, 1953, the projects were submitted to the Scientific and Technical Committee of the Main Armored Office (GBTU) and the Ministry of Transport and Heavy Machinery (MTiTM). After examining them, the members of the NTK concluded that these projects imply the need for a serious reworking of the 730 Object hull and therefore are not suitable.

The Commission approved for further work a completely different, much more “calm” project, which required minimal rework of the base chassis. Among the major changes in it, it required only the installation of a slightly more compact B-12 – 6 engine, which, by the way, was also provided for in option # XXUMX.

A revised version of the project was introduced in June 1953. Also, a wooden model on the scale of 1: 10 was presented to the commission. And on August 9, 25 on the subject of the 268 object was given a conclusion signed by Colonel-General A. I. Radzievsky.

A number of sources indicate that at this stage the design work has stalled, but it is not. Of course, the work on the self-propelled was somewhat influenced by the adoption of the 28 on November 1953 of the year at the arsenal of the 730 Object, which later became the T-10 tank. Nevertheless, the work on the car continued. N. Chistyakov, who had previously worked in Nizhny Tagil as the head of the new design sector, became the lead engineer of the 268 Object. There, when it began work on a medium tank Object 140, but for several reasons, the designer left Nizhny Tagil and moved to Leningrad. The general management fell on N. V. Kurin, a veteran of the Kirov factory and the author of a number of self-propelled rigs.


Draft design for the final version of Object 268, June 1954 of the year

There was, however, another reason that slowed down the work on the 268 Object, which some researchers do not take into account. The fact is that the instrument, which was supposed to be put on a self-propelled unit, was still at the design stage. Meanwhile, the staff of the plant number XXUMX was not idle. Following the 172-mm M122 cannon, proposed for installation in the promising tanks Object 62 and Object 752, Perm gunsmiths at the beginning of 777, finally reached the caliber 1954 mm.

From the moment of designing М53, the modified version of which was supposed to be put on the 268 Object, 7 years passed, and the development of artillery in these years did not stand still. As a result, the project 152-mm guns, designated M64. The initial velocity of his projectile was almost the same as that of the M53 (750 m / s), but the barrel length noticeably decreased. Considering the fact that the 268 Object combat compartment was located approximately in the same place as the T-10 combat compartment, this was very important. For comparison, the modified M53 had a total horizontal length from the axis of rotation of the turret to the tip of the muzzle brake 5845 mm, and the M64 - 4203 mm. With a new weapon, the trunk reach was just 2185 mm.


This machine is made in metal. Spring-Summer 1957 of the year

Officially, the technical design of the M64 was reviewed by the Main Artillery Directorate (GAU) in August 1954. In fact, the information on the new instrument was received earlier by the collective of the special design and technological bureau of the Kirov factory. The already mentioned thesis that the design work on the 268 Object by the fall of 1953 has stalled sounds a bit strange against the background that the drawing documentation for the car is dated 20 of June 1954.

The drawings (the entire project documentation contained 37 sheets) depicts a machine that most closely resembles that 268 Object, which was later built in metal. Conceptually, the car was a great reminder of the German self-propelled unit Jagdtiger, the most unified with a heavy tank Pz.Kpfw. Tiger Ausf.B.

The principal difference between the two machines was that the Soviet engineers managed not only to fit into the dimensions of the T-10 case, but also to preserve the same combat weight. And the height of the Object 268 was even slightly lower than the T-10. From the previous projects, the car inherited a commander's turret with a rangefinder. As in the case of the predecessors, the thickness of the hull from the sides and the stern had to be reduced, but the thickness of the sides of the cabin increased to 100 mm. It turned out to be quite impressive and the protection of cuttings from the forehead - 187 mm. Due to the fact that the cabin was expanded to the total width of the hull, it was quite spacious.

Between the past and the future

The final estimate for the 268 Facility was completed in March 1955. At the same time were approved and the time of manufacture of prototypes. According to the plans, the first sample of the 268 Object was expected to be received in the first quarter of 1956, two more copies were to be manufactured in the fourth quarter. Alas, it was during this period that work began on heavy tanks of a new generation, Chistyakov led the work on a heavy tank, the 278 Object, and this directly affected the readiness of the SAU.

As for the plant №172, he finished the creation of a prototype 152-mm guns M64 in December 1955 of the year. And in February, 1956, after a factory test program, the gun with the 4 serial number went to Leningrad, to the Kirov factory.


The front of the car looked very impressive. Surprisingly, in height it was lower than ISU-152

Tightening the work led to the fact that the first prototype of the 268 Object was completed only by the autumn of the 1956 year. In general, the machine complied with the project documentation, although some changes did occur. For example, it was decided to abandon the convex roof of the cabin. Instead, self-propelled installation got the roof more simple to manufacture the design. The machine gun with a “crooked” barrel did not turn out; in its place, the experienced car had a plug. The shape of the forage leaf, which it was decided not to bend, became simpler. This part was made removable, because through it was mounted and dismantled guns.

The crew of the car remained the same and counted 5 people. Due to the successful layout inside the car it was not at all crowded, even a very tall person could work in it. And this despite the fact that the ammunition of a large-caliber gun made 35 shots. The convenience of the crew was due to including the design features of the gun. Firstly, the M64 had an ejector, thanks to which it was possible to minimize the ingress of powder gases into the fighting compartment. Secondly, the gun received a loading mechanism, which markedly facilitated the work of the loaders.


268 object, starboard view

Factory tests of the prototype 268 Object began in the fall of the year 1956, and ended in the spring of the year 1957. In general, the car showed characteristics close to the calculated ones. On road performance 268 Object almost coincided with the T-10, including the maximum speed.

Soon after the tests, the self-propelled unit went to the NIIBT Polygon in Kubinka. Tests by shooting showed that the plant №172 not in vain delayed the development of weapons. М64 in accuracy of fire clearly exceeded the ML-20С, which was installed on the ISU-152. The new weapon turned out to be the best both in terms of the initial velocity of the projectile, in the firing range, and in the rate of fire.

Alas, all this did not play any role. It was decided to abandon the construction of two more prototypes of the 268 Object, and the first prototype of the machine went to the museum at the NIIBT Polygon. Now this copy is in the exposition of the park "Patriot". Recently, the museum staff managed to bring the ACS in the running state.


From this perspective, it is clearly seen that the roof of the cabin is different from the project.

Appear Object 268 five years earlier, the chances of going into a series he would have been very high. The car turned out successful, quite convenient for the crew and well-protected. But by 1957, a whole series of events had taken place, which together made launching into a series of such SAUs senseless.

To begin with, the development of heavy tanks of the new generation (Objects 1955, 277, 278 and 279), which had a significantly higher level of armor protection, began with 770. Against them, even the M64 gun was no longer enough. In the GBTU, they were well aware that the designers of armored vehicles abroad also do not sit still. It turned out that the promising self-propelled gun was armed with an artillery system that was already outdated.

In addition, just in the middle of the 50-s, a program for the modernization of MIS-152 began, which significantly extended the life of these machines. Unlike the 268 Object, which was only to be launched into production, these self-propelled guns were already here and now. Yes, the ML-20 in all parameters was inferior to the M64, but not so significant.

Finally, the production of T-10 was extremely slow. Downloading the Kirovsky Zavod and ChTZ with self-propelled units also meant an additional narrowing of the already not wide trickle of T-10 that entered the troops. In addition, the plant number 172 for the production of new ACS required to develop a new gun.

There was one more reason, which largely coincides with why the British, at about the same time, put an end to their heavy self-propelled installations FV215 and FV4005. The fact is that in 1956, work began on projects of anti-tank guided missile systems. 8 May 1957, the USSR Council of Ministers authorized the development of tanks and self-propelled guns armed with guided missiles.

Many will immediately recall the “bad Khrushchev”, but let's face it. The launcher for an anti-tank missile is much more compact than a gun. Rocket launch is much easier, and most importantly, it can be controlled in flight. As a result, with a similar power charge, the rocket is an order of magnitude more efficient. Unsurprisingly, the 268 Object was the last Soviet heavy assault ACS with cannon armament.


Sketch design of a tank fighter jet Object 282T, 1958 year

This work on the self-propelled units based on the T-10 work has not stopped. In the same 1957, the OKTB of the Kirov Plant began the development of a machine that received the designation Object 282. It is often called a tank, but in fact it was a heavy tank destroyer. It was created with the expectation of 170-mm Salamander anti-tank missiles, but due to the fact that the NII-48 team could not bring them to mind, they changed the weapons. In the final configuration, the machine, which received the 282T Object Index, was to be equipped with either 152-mm anti-tank missiles TRS-152 (22 missiles) or 132-mm TRS-132 missiles (30 missiles).


Object 282T on trial, 1959 year

Released for testing in 1959, the car was strikingly different from previous self-propelled units. Despite such an impressive ammunition and crew in the 2 – 3 man, the tank was slightly shorter than the T-10. And most importantly, its height was only 2100 mm. The front part of the tank was redone. In addition, the designers moved forward and fuel tanks, separating the crew from them 30-mm partition. The car received a forced B-12 – 7 engine with an 1000 horsepower. Its maximum speed increased to 55 km / h.

In a word, it turned out to be an extraordinary machine that was eventually destroyed by the weapons. Tests have shown that the Topol control system installed at the 282T Facility does not work reliably, which led to the collapse of the project.


This should have been a redesigned project bearing the designation Object 282K. Before making it in the metal it did not come

In the same year, 1959, the Kirovsky OKTB, developed a project for an improved machine, which was designated the Object 282K. Its combat weight increased to 46,5 tons, and the total height decreased to 1900 mm. As planned, the car was equipped with two launchers TRS-132 (20 missiles for each), located in the sides. On the stern was a 152-mm PURS-2 launcher with 9 missiles. The fire control system was fully borrowed from the 282T Object. Due to the failure of the 282T Object to be tested, work on the 282 Object has not gone beyond the design phase.

The history of the design of self-propelled units based on the T-10 is over.
51 comment
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  1. +3
    11 March 2017 20: 46
    Wangyu - the article was paid by one Belarusian company))
  2. +4
    11 March 2017 21: 27
    Yes, it’s worth taking a closer look at the T-10 and vehicles based on it, as the technology is much ahead of its time ...
    1. +1
      17 June 2017 12: 35
      father served on it, told that once he participated in maneuvers with the participation of the GDR and they were on the T-34-85. So he said that the Germans jumped out of the forest and rushed across the field small and frivolous - some kind of funny tanks against the T-10 . And then, he says, it dawned on - what is It was the fathers of the Germans to beat even more ridiculous T-34.
  3. +2
    12 March 2017 00: 10
    It’s high time for the reserve reserve tank from above and above to have a tank destroyer (and remove “climbers” from artillery (9 tanks for the tank destroyer company, KR and KV vehicles (4 units — to equip ATGMs with the ability to hit helicopters as well).
    Strengthen the reservation of the upper part of the hull, have a dump for self-digging, and a variable clearance and 2 crew members (the commander is the same mechanic and gunner).
    1. +8
      12 March 2017 00: 18
      Quote: chenia
      ... the commander, he’s a mechanic ...

      - yeah ... and the scythe is still in his hands, so that he cuts the grass ... otherwise he will have nothing to do at all fellow
      1. +2
        12 March 2017 09: 44
        IT is not a tank and is an ambush weapon (you need to do them without stabilizers in order to exclude their use as an assault gun).
        Therefore, I drove up, opened a trench, took a position, "crouched" and wait for the adversary (in the correct version, this is all in advance, and you take a position from the waiting area).
        Next, the commander moves to the tower, and goes about his business. We must also train the gunner as a mechanic.
        It's time to change position, the commander slipped to the levers, gave the curtain and a reserve position (if you're lucky).
        The question is, why are three crew members in battle?
        By the way, they were already making an object for two crew members.
        1. +7
          12 March 2017 09: 57
          Quote: chenia
          IT is not a tank and is an ambush weapon

          - ATGMs are cheaper in this capacity, and it’s easier to hide.

          Quote: chenia
          you need to do them without stabilizers in order to exclude their use as an assault gun

          - and you are sooooo ...
          - only what for such a cart is needed? ATGM + shishiga for transportation, and you do not need any IT request

          Quote: chenia
          drove up, dug up a trench, took a position, "crouched" and wait for the adversary ...

          Next, the commander moves to the tower, and goes about his business. We must also train the gunner as a mechanic.

          It's time to change position, the commander slipped to the levers, gave the curtain and a reserve position (if you're lucky).

          The question is, why are three crew members in battle?

          - cool
          - why then two people in a carriage?
          - mehan - he’s a gunner ... in order to shoot from a trench, the commander is not particularly needed ...

          This is me ... in the order of "bringing to absurdity" Yes
          1. +1
            12 March 2017 11: 10
            Quote: Cat Man Null
            - ATGMs are cheaper in this capacity, and it’s easier to hide.


            There is a caveat, the regiment’s reserve reserve is usually applied after the enemy has taken the first position. He must delay the adversary while the regrouping of our second echelon and the departing units of the first to organize a rebuff or counterattack is ongoing.
            The enemy, as a pavilo, introduces its second echelon - "fresh" tanks with non-defunded KAZ (this is the first position in the tanks hollowed with everything you can. Down to the stones.)
            Hence, the PT reserve (at this moment) is the only barrier, and it is obliged to stop (detain) the tank battalion.
            And here the ATGM is not so effective (without artillery. Grenade launchers, large-caliber machine guns (12,7 -! 4, 5,) automatic guns 30 mm. -Which demolished the KAZ in the first position.)
            Well, actually something like that.
            1. +1
              12 March 2017 12: 21
              Quote: chenia
              Hence, the PT reserve (at this moment) is the only barrier, and it is obliged to stop (detain) the tank battalion.

              Battalion?
              The AT battery has the same frontier deployment front as the defending motorized rifle battalion.
              1. 0
                12 March 2017 13: 01
                Entering the second echelon - they can generally go in pre-battle order, and the downing of 14-18 tanks (for which the battery is designed) 30% of the TB attack is thwarted - which was required.
                1. +1
                  12 March 2017 13: 17
                  And here is the "entry of the second tier"? In the offensive. is ready to protect the flanks. All time.
                  And the entry of the second echelon will perfectly provide the first echelon.

                  Quote: chenia
                  and knocking out 14-18 tanks (for which the battery is designed)

                  She must force the enemy to turn into battle formation and detain him.
                  To enable the combined-arms reserves to deploy deployments abroad. Tanks loot, if possible.
                  1. 0
                    13 March 2017 01: 56
                    Quote: Spade
                    She must force the enemy to turn into battle formation and detain him.


                    Shovels, I understand Sunday, I also came only from matchmakers, but be careful.
                    We are talking about the same thing, I give more broadly
                    The enemy after taking the first position (and we in such cases too) introduces the second echelon (and fresh tanks) into the battle
                    Fri reserve must ensure the deployment of the 2nd echelon of the regiment, and the remnants of the first to repel the attack or contour.
                    1. +2
                      13 March 2017 11: 57
                      Uh, no ... Entering the second tier is one thing. And the use of units of the second echelon or combined arms reserve to repel counterattacks is completely different.
                      In the first case, they will advance, in the second, they will defend. And it’s impossible to interfere with all this in one heap.
          2. 0
            12 March 2017 11: 52
            Quote: Cat Man Null
            - why then two people in a carriage?


            Actually, you yourself could guess
            The tank has the habit of fighting in motion (usually), and IT is ambushed from the spot.
            Although in extreme cases, there could be one.
            1. 0
              12 March 2017 12: 02
              Quote: chenia
              Actually, you yourself could guess

              - Already, read carefully:
              Quote: Cat Man Null
              ... to shoot from the trench, the commander is not particularly needed ...


              Since you decided that IT works only from an ambush (and even the stabilizer was taken from him, crying )
              1. 0
                12 March 2017 12: 26
                Quote: Cat Man Null
                then IT only works from an ambush


                Generally yes.
                PT battery MSP-9 ATGM. subsequently added 6 MT-12 (now they want SPRUT-B)
                it turned out to be the PT division. In the MSD-OIPTD -18 PT guns.
                And instead, armored, with the ability to self-digging, with a variable clearance. The tasks are the same.
                Continue to continue?

                IT is not an assault gun.
                1. 0
                  12 March 2017 12: 54
                  Quote: chenia
                  instead, armored, with the ability to self-digging, with a variable clearance. The tasks are the same.

                  - ¿cuánto es (Spanish "how much")
                  - D&G (expensive and stupid), IMHO

                  Quote: chenia
                  Continue to continue?

                  - enough, you are quite understandable Yes
                  1. 0
                    13 March 2017 02: 08
                    Quote: Cat Man Null
                    - D&G (expensive and stupid), IMHO


                    There are 40 tanks in the SMEs, in the PT Division of the SMEs (now the truth is that the organization has sailed, but they are returning to the division). (ATGM and 6 SPRUT-B). and the OPTADN of the division is 18SPRUT-B (it should be, but instead of them MT-12.

                    Against tanks (the same task), guns with a shield cover and a calculation of 7 people.
                    NO PITY?

                    And 9 nedotanks not fork out?
                    1. 0
                      13 March 2017 08: 57
                      And MT-12 for 20 years as a weak against Abrams and Leo-2 of those years.
                      1. 0
                        13 March 2017 10: 43
                        Quote: Zaurbek
                        And MT-12 is already rather weak for 20 years.


                        Last effective target for
                        MT-12 is M-60
                    2. 0
                      13 March 2017 11: 20
                      Make a correction for the lack of modern BTS in the MT-12. The western analogue of 105mm is still put on light armored vehicles ...
          3. +2
            12 March 2017 23: 46
            Quote: Cat Man Null
            to shoot from the trench, the commander is not particularly needed ...

            Well, never wrong! And hto entot dig will dig? Sappers primarily dig and build CP, then ZKT. So the enemy will turn out in the attack, and only the blocked gap is ready as a need. 5 people in the crew and no less, 4 digging + 1 supervising the digging - we will be in time for the arrival of vorogs. laughing
            1. 0
              12 March 2017 23: 54
              From there:
              Quote: Cat Man Null
              This is me ... in the order of "bringing to absurdity"

              This branch also pretty amused me Yes
        2. Alf
          +3
          12 March 2017 23: 00
          Quote: chenia
          IT is not a tank and is an ambush weapon (you need to do them without stabilizers in order to exclude their use as an assault gun).
          Therefore, I drove up, opened a trench, took a position, "crouched" and wait for the adversary (in the correct version, this is all in advance, and you take a position from the waiting area).
          Next, the commander moves to the tower, and goes about his business. We must also train the gunner as a mechanic.
          It's time to change position, the commander slipped to the levers, gave the curtain and a reserve position (if you're lucky).
          The question is, why are three crew members in battle?
          By the way, they were already making an object for two crew members.

          But in HERE a tank in general, one person controls .... fool
          1. 0
            13 March 2017 10: 46
            Quote: Alf
            But in VOT a tank in general is controlled by one person.


            The irony is inappropriate - first find out the number of crew in armored groups and fire ambushes.
      2. 0
        12 March 2017 19: 00
        Quote: Cat Man Null
        Quote: chenia
        ... the commander, he’s a mechanic ...

        - yeah ... and the scythe is still in his hands, so that he cuts the grass ... otherwise he will have nothing to do at all fellow

        -in the story there is a flashlight on the forehead- so that at night he mowed ...
      3. 0
        13 March 2017 14: 25
        Quote: Cat Man Null
        yeah ... and scythe in his hands, so that he cut the grass ... otherwise he will have nothing to do at all

        Your sarcasm is out of place. A missile tank can be universal, both in tanks and in air, to equip it with different missiles.
    2. +3
      12 March 2017 12: 18
      Quote: chenia
      It’s time for a tank destroyer from above to have a tank destroyer

      Meaning? To get more expensive? The inability of some KAZs to intercept BOPS is a temporary phenomenon, armored defense systems will only improve, and anti-tank missiles have a much greater modernization potential in this regard. Coordinated launch of two or more missiles on target with KAZ, installation of REP systems on a rocket, hypersonic speed of a rocket ...
      The time of self-propelled tank destroyers went unambiguously.

      Quote: chenia
      and take the "climbers" out of artillery

      Impossible. Artillerymen must be commanders of the subunits of this level. Because without fire support with PDO, there are 9 cars at the deployment line of 2 km. they can’t do anything. Even before the start of the battle, it is not a fact that the POS will have time to throw mines in front of the deployment line, which means remote mining. With the beginning of the battle, in the case of the use of armored vehicles with KAZ, work with shells is a “jammer”. Later, the statement of the NZO and PZO with the task of hitting the external sensors of the protection systems.

      And artillery fire is necessary to govern.
      1. 0
        12 March 2017 13: 07
        Quote: Spade
        And artillery fire must be controlled.


        Lopatov, the second position, what is left of the regimental artillery?
        \ THE ENEMY LEADS AN ATTACK.
        3-6 times superiority in artillery can up to 10.
        And the main task is to DELAY at least for some time, to disrupt the pace of its advance, for regrouping reserves of all levels (the direction of the main attack is known).
        1. +2
          12 March 2017 13: 42
          Quote: chenia
          AN ENEMY LEADS AN ATTACK.

          And what, do not shoot?
      2. 0
        12 March 2017 13: 09
        Quote: Spade
        And artillery fire must be controlled.


        - and will the com battery do that?
        1. +1
          12 March 2017 13: 43
          Quote: chenia
          Quote: Spade
          And artillery fire must be controlled.

          - and will the com battery do that?

          Is he.
          And the anti-tank platoon commanders
          They do not have rangefinders on staff to measure distances to landmarks once.
      3. 0
        13 March 2017 02: 50
        Quote: Spade
        Meaning? To get more expensive? The inability of some KAZs to intercept BOPS is a temporary phenomenon, armored defense systems will only be improved, and anti-tank missiles have a much larger modernization


        The scrap speed of 2000m / s is the speed of detonation, no crap can intercept it, only DZ can weaken it somewhat.
        But (here you are somehow contradicting yourself when speaking about the prospects of KAZ) ATGM with a much larger reflection, it is easier to intercept a beam of split shot.

        Quote: Spade
        Because without fire support with PDO, there are 9 cars at the deployment line of 2 km. they can’t do anything.


        Out of ambush? Combat rate of fire 4 v / m defeat 0,8. shooting at 3 meter crap.
        But you still have to try to get into the turret at ground level (IT). 4 tanks in 3 minutes per gun - all attack is disrupted - time is won.

        Quote: Spade
        Even before the start of the battle, it is not a fact that the POS will have time to throw mines in front of the deployment line, which means remote mining. With the beginning of the battle, in the case of the use of armored vehicles with KAZ, work with shells is a “jammer”. Later, the statement of the NZO and PZO with the task of hitting the external sensors of the protection systems.


        How do you underestimate the enemy. He has the initiative, 10-fold superiority in fire weapons (artillery, aviation),
        And all the dirty tricks for the adversary that you so colorfully described can still have time to prove themselves when he attacks the first position.
        When the PT res enters. already from our capabilities there are flaws (even of a divisional level - the enemy conducts a deterrent attack on a wide front with massing on the breakthrough site.

        The remnants of artillery for the event will be described by me above. Well, there will be another unit of cover for the departure of our first echelon.
        So basically the PT rez. Will have to figure it out by ourselves.

        And why when there are 40 tanks in SMEs, 9 ITs are already economically unbearable.

        And the adoption of IT was authorized in the late 80s by the USSR Ministry of Defense (SPRUT SV) failed.
        1. +1
          13 March 2017 10: 17
          Quote: chenia
          Scrap speed 2000m / s is the speed of detonation, no crap will intercept it

          Of course it will not intercept ... Nobody will catch it at the edge of the trunk. 2000 m / s is the initial speed, isn't it. Kilometers to three will already be 1200-1400?

          Quote: chenia
          But (here you are somehow contradicting yourself when speaking about the prospects of KAZ) ATGM with a much larger reflection, it is easier to intercept a beam of split shot.

          If there is a REP station, it simply will not be able to visit
          If there is a "doublet" - it will not have time to "serve" the second missile.
          If it is hypersound, then it is her penetrator that will have final speed in the region of 2000 m / s, or even more.

          Quote: chenia
          Out of ambush?

          What an ambush? We are talking about an anti-tank reserve, and not about partisans.

          Quote: chenia
          But you still have to try to get into the turret at ground level (IT).

          She is motionless. From the strength of the third high-precision projectile. Or a mine.
          Or ATGM-Tou-2V, striking a target from above on the span perfectly copes with such a goal. I’m afraid it’s precisely for this and is imprisoned, given the American experience in shooting buried Iraqi tanks using ATGMs on the Bradley BMP

          Quote: chenia
          How do you underestimate the enemy. He has the initiative, 10-fold superiority in fire weapons (artillery, aviation),

          No, you underestimate it. Unobservable and maneuvering division to control, just spit. But the perfectly observed 9 fixed tank destroyers are a huge problem.

          Quote: chenia
          And the adoption of IT was authorized in the late 80s by the USSR Ministry of Defense (SPRUT SV) failed.

          Fortunately, they didn’t.
          1. 0
            13 March 2017 11: 07
            Quote: Spade
            What an ambush? We are talking about an anti-tank reserve, and not about partisans.


            Shovels are you cho?
            On the defensive. They jump out on a FRT prepared line from the waiting area in advance.

            If on the offensive, Also constantly deployed to the planned anti-tank warheads in tank hazardous areas (flanks) as our troops advance. (here self-entrapment and variable clearance are very appropriate).
            1. 0
              13 March 2017 11: 32
              Quote: chenia
              On the defensive. They jump out on a FRT prepared line from the waiting area in advance.

              I'm afraid you are not at all aware of what the PT reserve is doing. It is simply impossible to prepare deployment lines for defense. Too much work has to be done.

              Quote: chenia
              If on the offensive, Also constantly deployed to the planned anti-tank warheads in tank hazardous areas (flanks) as our troops advance.

              No, PT Res should be in the immediate rear in the convoy. And it is advanced to deployment lines only in case of an enemy counterattack. Because it’s impossible to be in several places at the same time, and it’s unacceptable to scoop up a reserve for all possible areas of counterattack.
              1. 0
                13 March 2017 12: 12
                Quote: Spade
                I'm afraid you are not at all aware of what the PT reserve is doing. It is simply impossible to prepare deployment lines for defense. Too much


                Quote: Spade
                No, PT Res should be in the immediate rear in the convoy. And it is advanced to deployment lines only in case of an enemy counterattack.


                defense
                . The anti-tank artillery division (battery) during the battle on command (signal) of the senior commander (chief) quickly advances to the indicated prepared or unprepared line, deploys into battle formation and destroys advancing tanks and other armored vehicles of the enemy.
                approach
                The anti-tank artillery division (battery) during the offensive moves along the specified route in the indicated direction in irregular movements from one concentration area (deployment line) to another

                (Artillery unit)
          2. 0
            13 March 2017 11: 15
            Quote: Spade
            No, you underestimate it. Unobservable and maneuvering division


            Are you probably talking about the anti-tank division?
            We close the shield from HE shells, AGS, automatic guns, heavy machine guns.
            Well, actually -Death to the enemy-P .... yes to the calculation (7 people)

            .
            Quote: Spade
            Fortunately, they didn’t.


            Women still give birth?
            1. 0
              13 March 2017 11: 46
              Quote: chenia
              Are you probably talking about the anti-tank division?

              Like hinting that there are more divisions? I agree. there are two artillery brigades, one rocket and three mortars. As I understand it, it is much easier to destroy them all than 9 observed tank destroyers.

              Quote: chenia
              Women still give birth?

              Not just the use of inadequate systems in anti-tank artillery, in particular anti-tank missiles, and lead to "Women still give birth"
              And the survival of personnel can only be ensured by anti-tank systems operating from closed fire positions or remotely controlled systems.
          3. 0
            13 March 2017 11: 22
            Quote: Spade
            What an ambush? We are talking about an anti-tank reserve, and not about partisans.


            In defense, occupation of a well-prepared anti-tank line from the waiting area before the enemy approaches.

            On the offensive. Occupation of the planned anti-tank lines on tank dangerous directions., As our troops advance (on the flanks).
            This is where self-entrapment and variable clearance are the most.
  4. 0
    12 March 2017 04: 35
    assault on a tank base
  5. +5
    12 March 2017 07: 25
    Thank. The article is very interesting. Lying in the context of the site heading. There should be an absolute majority of similar material. After all, the “Armament” column was originally conceived to publish articles on the history of the creation and use of weapons of any kind.
  6. 0
    12 March 2017 08: 23
    A machine based on the T-10 with a 152mm gun would greatly help the Syrian army to assault the areas ... They should have a DUM with a 12,7mm machine gun and DZ with gratings and go .... 152mm is a destructive argument and the armor is good.
    1. 0
      12 March 2017 09: 15
      They have ACACIA of the same caliber, just a few of them. And about armor - for TOU-2 it’s not armor
      1. 0
        12 March 2017 09: 21
        Acacia - Howitzer ... And these "Objects" were made with enhanced armor protection. The armor, of course, is worse than that of the T-72 (for the USSR Armed Forces), but more powerful than the T-55/62 and the earlier T-72 (export). That adjusted for DZ and Screens will give a good result. A PF 152mm direct fire is a very good argument in battles. I'm not talking about the possibility of launching PTRS through the barrel or shells like "Krasnopol"
        1. 0
          12 March 2017 09: 53
          It is the howitzer in Syria that is needed, the buried strongholds cannot be destroyed by direct fire. And the "object" was created as a tank destroyer. Special machine too narrow.
          1. 0
            12 March 2017 17: 45
            And the assault in urban conditions, when the defenders settled in the bunkers of the houses ....? Install a dozer blade in front ... and go!
            1. 0
              13 March 2017 22: 45
              Such armored vehicles are not needed at all in the city; it is superfluous. Aviation compares everything that is possible with the earth, debris cleans assault groups, with the support of self-propelled guns and conventional artillery
              1. 0
                15 March 2017 10: 55
                Does infantry fight in the city by itself?
  7. Alf
    0
    12 March 2017 23: 04
    Here's a part in the fighting.
  8. 0
    April 30 2020 13: 58
    But such good tanks!