"Arisaka" - a rifle aimed at the future

193
What makes a man - a man? Mainly upbringing - culture is not inherited. That is something, some abilities, inclinations, habits, even - are transmitted. But not a social person in general. In England, in one of the universities, an experiment was conducted: students entered the room one by one and had to put a vase with flowers on the piano. All put it in the middle. A Japanese student entered and put it on the edge. Also repeated in Japan and with the same result, only the proportion was inverse. That is, we are raised in the love of symmetry, they are asymmetries. But how to be then with the technique? What to pay attention to? And how did this, say, affect the creation of new samples? weapons?

"Arisaka" - a rifle aimed at the future

A rifle based on the Arisaka 38 type rifle.



Well, with regard to weapons, the same Japanese initially had this: as soon as Western-style modernization began in the country, the Japanese military chose a Remington rifle with a crane bolt. She seemed to them more comfortable than the rest. But already in 1880 of the XIX century, through the efforts of Major Tsuniyoshi Murat, Japan received a rifle of his 11-mm caliber system under flange cartridges with smoky gunpowder. The rifle itself was a hybrid of the French Gra rifle and the Dutch Beaumont rifle, which received the designation "Type 13". This was followed by an improved Type 18 model and, finally, in 1889 the “Type 22” 8-mm caliber with an eight-shot magazine under the trunk of the Kropachek system - that is, again, the French “label” was taken as the basis. With this rifle, Japanese soldiers defeated the Chinese army in the Sino-Japanese War, but it turned out that the rifle has many shortcomings, so to speak of "foreign" origin. Like all rifles with an under-barrel magazine, it had a changing balance. In addition, the height of the Japanese soldier did not exceed 157 cm, and the weight was 48 kg, that is, they almost completely suffered from dystrophy, which means that it was much more difficult for him to deal with this phenomenon than the Europeans. In addition, the recoil during the shot was simply excessive for them, and the rifle itself was too heavy. Of course, you could force recruits to eat a lot of meat and build muscle with dumbbells, and navy they did so. But in the army it was much more difficult to do, so the new chief of the rifle division of the Tokyo arsenal, Colonel Naryakira Arisaka (he replaced Murat, who had already become major general by that time) decided to reduce the caliber of the future rifle to 6,5 mm. Again, they turned to the experience of Europe and found out that there the smallest and weakest in terms of recoil was the Italian 6,5-mm cartridge from the Manlicher-Carcano rifle. It contained only 2,28 g of Solemit brand smokeless powder, which made it possible to disperse its 10,45 grams (with a barrel length of 780 mm) to a speed of 710 m / s.


Arisaka rifle "Type 30".

Arisaka considered that this cartridge could be even weaker, and put only 2,04 g of nitrocellulose lamellar gunpowder in it. The sleeve had a length of 50,7-mm, which made it possible to designate its parameter as 6,5 × 50, as well as 6,5 × 51 mm.


The bayonet to the Arisaka rifle "Type 30". The rifle itself was shot without a bayonet.

At that time, many masters of the weapon case with foaming at the mouth proved to each other alone - the merits of a sleeve with a flange (flange), others - with a ring groove. Arisaka did not choose, and supplied his cartridge at the same time with the rim, however, small, only slightly larger in diameter than the sleeve itself, and the groove. The concepts of “big-small” are extensible, so it makes sense to cite data for comparison: the cartridge Arisaka has a flange on the 0,315 mm, while a Mosinskaya rifle on the 1,055 mm. The bullet was traditionally dull, had a nickel silver shell and a core of lead. The speed that she developed on the departure from the 800-mm barrel, was 725 m / s. Gunpowder from the liner with such a length of the barrel burned entirely, so the muzzle flame when fired almost did not arise, and its sound was low. This is how the 30 Type 1897 rifle of the year, with which the Japanese soldiers went to war with Russia, appeared. And immediately after its completion, namely in the 1906 year, a new rifle “Type 38” was adopted, improved according to its experience.


On the left is the cartridge for the Mosin rifle, on the right is the cartridge for the Arisaka rifle.


The bolt to the rifle "Type 38".

In that year, simultaneously with the Arisaka “Type 1906” rifle, a new cartridge was adopted by the imperial Japanese army, now with a pointed bullet of 38 g and a cylindrical bottom part, not with a blunt-pointed one. This bullet had a thickened shell at the head, but since nickel silver had a lower density than lead, the center of gravity of such a bullet shifted backwards, which positively affected its stability on the trajectory and simultaneously increased its armor-piercing properties. In 8,9, the nickel silver shell of the bullet was replaced with a bimetallic shell - Japan had serious problems with raw materials. A charge of smokeless powder with a mass of 1942 g allowed to develop pressure in the bore to 2,15 kg / m3200 and disperse the bullet to 2 m / s. Cartridges with a tracer bullet (which was designated by green varnish), with armor-piercing (black varnish), with a bullet having a steel core (brown varnish) were produced.


Sights to the rifle "Type 38".


Sights and emblem of the manufacturer's arsenal.

But this is something that no other rifle in the world had: the receiver's lid, which opened it simultaneously with the movement of the bolt. That is, neither dirt, nor sand, which fell on the heads of the soldiers when shells exploded, could not get into the mechanism.


The shutter is closed.


Open shutter. The feeder of cartridges from shop is well visible.

For light machine guns, special cartridges were made with a charge of gunpowder, reduced to 1,9, which helped the Japanese machine-gunners to carry a large supply of cartridges. Cartridges with a smaller charge from the usual did not differ, but had a special identification mark on the box. Accordingly, a cartridge with a short and light cylindrical bullet with a tompak shell and an aluminum core was used for training shooting. For idle firing used cartridges in which the bullet was twisted out of paper, and the same machine-gun cartridge had a bullet from the tree. In addition, special cartridges were used for throwing grenades from grenade launchers attached to the barrel. The holder of the Japanese rifle also had five rounds, as in the Russian.


The shutter handle is raised up. The shutter is open with the cover.


] The shutter is open, the sight is raised.

During World War I, the release of "Japanese cartridges" was organized not only in Japan itself, but also in England, where it was produced under the designation 6,5х51SR and exported to Russia, which bought Arisaka rifles in Japan. Under him, the cartridge was made and the first in the world machine Fedorov.

In 1915-1916 Type 38 cartridges were also produced in Russia at the St. Petersburg Cartridge Plant for 200 thousand units per month. Of course, this was not enough, but it was better than nothing.

[/ Center
Once again, a large image of the logo on the trunk. Well, the Japanese loved the image of multi-petal chrysanthemums, no wonder it was the emblem of the emperor himself.

So, what was the Arisaka 38 Type rifle of the 1905 model of the year? Its shutter was designed on the basis of the German Mauser 98 rifle shutter, but the Japanese managed to make it more technologically advanced, so according to this indicator the Japanese rifle corresponds to the American springfield M1903. The rifle, despite the reduced caliber, turned out to be quite powerful. Moreover, from the experience of the war, it was concluded that her bullets have a good punitive and lethal effect. Due to the lower weight of the cartridges, the Japanese soldier could take them more than the soldiers of other armies. In addition, the 6,5 × 50 mm Arisaka cartridge had a reduced recoil momentum, which had a positive effect on shooting accuracy. True, Russian newspapers after the war wrote that “our gun is stronger than the Japanese,” but the concept of “stronger” does not mean more deadly, but according to this indicator, as determined by doctors who studied injuries in hospitals, both rifles were almost identical. More comfortable was the Japanese patron. Due to a small welt, it was fixed in the chamber through the official section of the barrel, which required lower tolerances in the manufacture of barrels and cartridges, which is especially beneficial in conditions of total war. But at the same time, a small welt did not interfere with the location of cartridges in the store, as well as sending them to the barrel.

[Center]

Fly with namushnikom (1).


Fly with Namuchnikom (2)

The handle, located in the back of the bolt, allowed the rifle to be reloaded without taking the butt off the shoulder, so that the target was not lost in sight. Hidden inside the lodge, the shop was well protected from mechanical stress and deformation. The rate of fire was 20 shots per minute, that is, it was more than enough.


Purely subjectively, the rifle seemed convenient and light, although its weight was 4,12 kg. However, there was no feeling that you were given a heavy iron "drin" in your hands, which immediately pulled them away. It was not difficult to transfer its grip in the area of ​​the store and the shutter, that is, in the very center of gravity, and also direct it to the target. The semi-pistol neck of the butt is of a very convenient shape and makes it possible to reliably fix the rifle in your hands when aiming. It was argued that the bolt cap knocked loudly, unmasking the soldier, and that the Japanese soldiers even took it off because of this. Yes, it clicks a little, but not louder than the distorted shutter itself, but the advantages of such a solution are indisputable. Of course, it would be desirable to shoot from it, but what’s not, that’s not it! However, I can not fail to note that of all the rifles described here earlier (except for Martini-Henry!), This turned out to be the most “applied” one, and the worst in this indicator is the Manliher-Carcano carbine.

In 1914, the colonel of the Russian Imperial Army V.G. Fedorov carried out a full cycle of tests of the Japanese rifle "Type 38", which showed that it was very rationally designed, that is, the very best was really taken from different types of weapons. Further, in his response to the rifle, he noted that, although it possesses excessive measures of accuracy (that's how!), Its production is cheaper than the Mosin rifles. Logically, after this, it would seem necessary to replace our caliber with a Japanese one and adopt a Japanese rifle and Japanese ammunition, but it is clear that it would have been impossible to do this during the war, but after the 6,5-mm caliber we “went”, it again occurred to our new military that “our gun is stronger than the Japanese” and to convince them of VG Fedorov failed! However, subsequent events in the arms world have shown that reducing caliber is a necessary thing, so the Japanese in the right trend, as they say, were, it turns out, more than 100 years ago!
193 comments
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  1. cap
    +20
    7 January 2017 06: 33
    I read it without stopping. Thank you. hi
    1. +16
      7 January 2017 07: 10
      Quote: cap
      I read it without stopping. Thank you. hi


      There is a very good book of the Beetle "Weapon". So there, without unnecessary snot, professionally and reasonably described both the advantages and disadvantages of most types of small arms. I recommend !
      1. cap
        +14
        7 January 2017 07: 31
        Quote: bocsman

        0
        bocsman Today, 07:10 ↑ New
        Quote: cap
        I read it without stopping. Thank you. hi


        There is a very good book Beetle "Arms". So there, without unnecessary snot, professionally described and the advantages and disadvantages of most types of small arms. I recommend !


        If you are talking about "Rifles and Submachine guns" (Military Publishing, 1987) by A.B. Zhuk., Then I turn to her less and less. Such articles are read and perceived easier.
        On this occasion, I remembered a soldier called up for special forces (he should not have been called up at all, but called up (damned USSR laughing )). It was needed for special work in part. It turned out that he worked as a turner in a closed workshop at an arms factory, in the third generation! When, during classes on the design of the machine gun, among other things, on the device AKM, he began to issue tolerances for machining parts and the composition of steels, he was released from the classes on fire training for the rest of his service .... laughing
        1. +5
          7 January 2017 21: 09
          So, what is next? For knowledge of metal science and skills in metal cutting by dangling in the location of the unit? Interesting, dear, what years is it ??? laughing belay
      2. +2
        7 January 2017 13: 12
        There are many more books about weapons that the Beetle used when he wrote his books.
      3. +4
        7 January 2017 20: 11
        There is such a book, even the first edition of Rifles and Submachine guns. Good book.

        But I have another question ... Where did you see the "snot" in the presented material? Argument, please, it will be interesting to read and compare. Write an article as a "counterbalance" to the author, enter into controversy. And we, your colleagues, will be able to choose the truth among two opinions. Make up your mind, my dear, and success awaits you. Go for it, and good luck awaits you!
        1. +3
          7 January 2017 21: 23
          moskowit

          Under the "snot" apparently fell on personal impressions.
          You can "dry" the text as much as you like, comparing the technical characteristics. There are plenty of such books. In the end, it is more interesting to hear about personal impressions from a person holding various types of weapons.
          The ability to convey your opinion in a capacious manner, without referring to tabular data in journalistic articles, is a priority.

          So, what exactly about "snot" and want to know more.
      4. +1
        8 January 2017 17: 34
        Quote: bocsman
        There is a very good book of the Beetle "Weapon"

        Good books were not published in the USSR. The correct ones were published. And these are different things.
        In addition, the level of awareness in the USSR about foreign weapons was lower than the plinth.
        1. +6
          8 January 2017 19: 05
          Administration, return the minuses, please ...
    2. Cat
      +10
      7 January 2017 07: 52
      If I'm not mistaken at the end of the 30s of the last century, the Japanese switched to a caliber of 7.7 mm.
      Type 99 caliber 7.7 mm.
      1. +7
        7 January 2017 15: 07
        Yes, this is due to the desire to increase armor penetration when firing at light armored vehicles
        and aircraft, as a result of the war in China, where they encountered Chinese wedges (English-made) that had bulletproof armor. The bullet from Arisaki did not penetrate it, so the Japanese decided to equip their infantry with rifles under a stronger cartridge. As a result, a 7,7 × 58 mm wafer rifle cartridge was developed. During the development, the British .303 British cartridge was taken as the basis, but, firstly, it was deprived of the flange, and secondly, it was equipped with a 3,1-gram powder charge instead of a 2,58-gram one. The barrel length was shortened to 650 mm, and an 11,3-gram bullet flew out of it at a speed of 741 m / s.
        1. +2
          8 January 2017 17: 47
          Quote: Mikhail_Zverev
          Yes, this is due to the desire to increase armor penetration when firing at light armored vehicles
          and aircraft, as a result of the war in China, where they encountered Chinese wedges (English-made) that had bulletproof armor. The bullet from Arisaki did not penetrate it, so the Japanese decided to equip their infantry with rifles under a stronger cartridge.

          Those. Did the Japanese assume that for another 40-50 years, and usually the rearmament is carried out for about such a period, the whole world will be driving around in "Chinese tankettes"?
          Do not retell runet nonsense. Her here and so, above the roof.
          In fact, Arisaka rifles even with a barrel of 800 mm had a weak slaughter. And the machine guns on this cartridge with their truncated trunks (and even more so on the machine gun cartridge G) looked more like rattles.
          Therefore, the Japanese, in order to bring the performance of their weapons to normal levels, switched to the 30 × 7,7 mm Arisaka cartridge in the 58s.
          The Italians also made such an attempt, but before the war, Carcano did not have time to switch to a new cartridge of 7,35 × 51 mm.
      2. +2
        8 January 2017 17: 37
        Quote: Kotischa
        at the end of the 30s of the last century, the Japanese switched to a caliber of 7.7 mm

        Exactly. And the Italians made the same attempt. It would be good for the author to think about why this is so.
        And then he sings the diferembes ALREADY PROVENLY PROVEN defective of a caliber of 6,5 mm for the main army weapon.
  2. +21
    7 January 2017 06: 58
    There is nothing special about this rifle. "Breakthrough" (caliber) into the future is a necessary measure due to the weakness of the soldiers, the Japanese themselves later refused to protect the shutter, and the soldiers before that either removed or lost this protection themselves. In general, variations on the Mauser K-98. And yet, if the cartridge is weaker then why such a weight? What kind of mechanism if it needs extra protection from dirt? Caliber 6,5 is not 5,6 or 5,45. So no need to "shaggy grandmother" the Japanese have never been brilliant gunsmiths and never will!
    1. +1
      7 January 2017 07: 49
      that's it. and for caliber 7.7 after the war in Manchuria they for some reason switched over (type99).
      1. +9
        7 January 2017 08: 29
        Meat is more to eat! In the Navy, the English menu for sailors was specifically introduced, reducing portions, and made sure everyone ate! Specially bought cows and carried them to meat for the army and navy!
        1. +1
          7 January 2017 10: 15
          not. not therefore. According to the results of the war, 6.5 was considered insufficient.
    2. +7
      7 January 2017 07: 52
      In childhood, I came across old people who fought with the Japanese in the Civil War, and all about the Japanese rifle responded positively, although they didn’t have much choice with trophies.
    3. +7
      7 January 2017 08: 01
      Quote: bocsman
      There is nothing special about this rifle.

      Because she is Japanese, not ours smile
      Quote: bocsman
      Caliber 6,5 is not 5,6 and not 5,45

      So what? The Berdan Rifle No. 1 had a caliber of 4,5 lines (11,43 mm). There was a search for the optimal caliber.
    4. Cat
      +7
      7 January 2017 08: 02
      It must be remembered that for the first time, Italians with 6.5mm caliber appeared in Italians.
      In 1891, the Italian rifle adopted the Manlihera and Carcano system of the 1891 model, 6,5 mm caliber.
      1. Cat
        +5
        7 January 2017 13: 14
        I happened to shoot from Mauser, Mosinki and Asiriki on the same day at the shooting range. Asirika of them is the softest when shooting and more convenient to reload. The fact that she is more accurate than the first two I don’t know, maybe our company’s hands grew out of the wrong place. In application, Mauser is better. By accuracy, our Mosinka, I pay attention I'm talking about rifles, not carbines.
        1. +1
          7 January 2017 23: 03
          Quote: Kotischa
          Asiric of them

          so Asirika or Arisaka?
    5. +14
      7 January 2017 08: 26
      And nowhere is it written or stated that the Japanese were ingenious gunsmiths. They had no school, no traditions, they essentially started from scratch, with rifles of Snyder, Spencer and other "Americans". Wherever they did not buy weapons. And they managed to make a sample, which even in England was in service (partially). And the fact that the caliber is from need, then everything in the world is from need, including diapers and toilet paper ...
      Well, then this. This is not invented ...
      "In 1914, Colonel of the Russian Imperial Army VG Fedorov carried out a full cycle of tests of the Japanese Type 38 rifle, which showed that it was very rationally designed, that is, all the best was really taken from different types of weapons. Further in his review. on the rifle, he noted that, although it has excessive accuracy (that's how it is!), its production is cheaper than Mosin's rifles. "
      1. +10
        7 January 2017 10: 43
        Quote: kalibr
        Well, then this. This is not invented ...

        This is taken from Wiki and migrates from one resource to another unchanged. And no one even thinks what it says. But it’s very simple. Russia lacked rifles. It was decided to buy vintars abroad. A commission was created, requirements for the rifle were determined (including accuracy), and Fedorov conducted a series of studies of various samples in order to determine what to buy. The price-quality parameter was determined. So he gave his conclusion, based on the requirements specific to the purchased rifle.
        And this -
        Quote: kalibr
        it has redundant accuracy indicators (that's even how!)

        it doesn’t mean at all that it was a serial sniper rifle.

        PS: I generally like some of the requirements for small arms of the time. Everything is simple and specific. For example, some requirements for a revolver which was supposed to replace the 4,2-line Smith-Wesson revolver in the Russian Army.

        Great stopping action of a bullet. A shot at an effective range (up to 50 steps) should stop the horse.
        "The strength of the battle" should provide penetration of four to five inch pine boards.
        1. +5
          7 January 2017 10: 46
          Well this is the story, it was so. Vicki also doesn’t always lie, it’s important to see where it is placed from.
          1. +7
            7 January 2017 10: 54
            I did not say that this is fake. I did not say that this is a lie.
            In my opinion, in order to judge the accuracy of an arisaki, you need to know which target this accuracy has subsided. If the task was to get from 1000 meters to the nickel - this is one. And if with 100 fathoms in the dimension of a rider on a horse, then this is completely different.
            Another thing is important here - on most resources where arisaka is mentioned - copy-paste from the wiki. This most likely indicates that the rifle is not very interesting to historians of small arms. There is nothing special about her. They took mechanisms from well-known samples and sawed under their dead soldier and not very high-tech production base.
      2. Cat
        +5
        7 January 2017 13: 00
        Vyacheslav Olegovich!
        I defended the author of the article (you), focusing on the quote you quoted above.
        Easier with the world on a string to the Japanese - Asirika.
        In addition, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that Fedorov advocated a shortened 6.5mm cartridge for his "machine gun", but .... the story does not have a syllable from declination.
        1. 0
          8 January 2017 17: 55
          Quote: Kotischa
          that Fedorov advocated a shortened 6.5mm cartridge for his "machine gun"

          He even almost smuggled his "machine gun" into production. But, thank God, he had mercy. Even illiterate Bolsheviks were smart enough to abandon his "masterpiece".
      3. +6
        7 January 2017 16: 20
        The Japanese are great in one thing - what to take and modernize until perfection is achieved. Zen is like that. As an example that once struck me, I will give a story with a 20 mm Japanese aviation gun (I don’t remember its type :)). Very simple and funky - they took a 12,7 mm Browning machine gun and scaled it to 20 mm. It turned out no worse than the original - simply, reliably, quickly, accurately.
        Why Americans who had problems with air guns until the very end of the war and, as a result, bought a Hispano Susa did not think of the same thing, I don’t understand.
        1. +4
          7 January 2017 18: 34
          But 5 or what?
          On the
          Quote: M0xHaTka
          to take and upgrade until perfection

          it took almost 4 years. But-5 only at the end of 1944 brought to an acceptable level. Yes, and perfection, this product can be called with difficulty. A simple barrel replacement turned into a very time-consuming and complex operation. the return spring often broke, and the POU could not completely extinguish the recoil despite the weakened shell.
          1. 0
            8 January 2017 10: 24
            I don’t remember where I came across ... but the point is
            "The Japanese did not invent anything themselves, but they perfected everything they took."
            They made a perfect rifle for themselves at that time.
            Actually, I would really like to shoot from such a cartridge, its cartridge is very interesting to me ...
            1. +2
              8 January 2017 11: 40
              Quote: alex-cn
              "The Japanese did not invent anything themselves, but they perfected everything they took."

              I repeat -
              Quote: adma
              The Japanese never knew how to make good weapons, especially firearms. Even the vaunted katana is nothing more than a cinematic myth.

              I will admit it. that their tea ceremony and sushi are at the top of perfection in their field, but here is their weapon .....
              1. +1
                9 January 2017 04: 56
                The tea ceremony was invented in China. the Japanese adopted it, added blackjack and whores :)
            2. Alf
              +1
              8 January 2017 21: 42
              Quote: alex-cn
              "The Japanese did not invent anything themselves, but they perfected everything they took."

              Especially WWII tanks ...
        2. +1
          8 January 2017 17: 58
          Quote: M0xHaTka
          Very simple and funky - they took a 12,7 mm Browning machine gun and scaled it to 20 mm. It turned out no worse than the original - simply, reliably, quickly, accurately.
          Why Americans who had problems with air guns until the very end of the war and, as a result, bought a Hispano Susa did not think of the same thing, I don’t understand.

          The United States was a rule of law respecting private intellectual property.
          Japan WAS an authoritarian, unlawful state that did not respect private intellectual property.
          That's all.
          1. +2
            9 January 2017 18: 27
            Quote: JS20
            The United States was a rule of law respecting private intellectual property.

            Come on, and apparently this did not allow patent holders to simply increase the caliber.
            Afraid of yourself suing or what?
            Conclusions must be made wisely, and not cliches about "democracy" to quote.
          2. The comment was deleted.
      4. 0
        8 January 2017 17: 52
        Quote: kalibr
        In 1914, Colonel of the Russian Imperial Army V.G. Fedorov conducted a full test cycle of the Japanese Type 38 rifle

        Who is this? Was he able to give a qualified opinion? What is his surname? Studebaker?
        Quote: kalibr
        Further in his review of the rifle, he noted that, although it has excessive accuracy

        It is already clear that a person does not have the necessary qualifications. And the question should arise about the redundancy of his salary.
        Quote: kalibr
        its production is cheaper than Mosin rifles

        Manufacturing forks and axes is even cheaper.

        Time has confirmed Fedorov's "qualifications." In the 30s, the Japanese themselves gave up their "ingenious rifles". Despite Fedorov's boast.
        1. 0
          9 January 2017 18: 43
          And who is Studebaker recourse I know the Colt, I know Maxim, now I've read about "Arisaka", the Babakhalka of Studebaker did not overhear, except for the carburetor one. You have there in Canada, whether the light of progress is still the United States, or are you such a fan of stripes. winked
        2. +1
          10 January 2017 18: 37
          Comrade Vladimir Ulyanov-Lenin about people like you said: study, study and study again. In the meantime, sit down, two.
          I would also expect a similar speech under a similar flag in English or French. But in Russian ... Generation of Fanta Stole
          1. 0
            10 January 2017 21: 13
            Quote: M0xHaTka
            I would expect a similar speech

            So you think I don’t know Studebaker, I beg you for seams on Malaya Arnautskaya everyone knows him. He has a crappy carb wassat
            But seriously, how do you know how the Studebaker is associated with small arms?
            Can you explain to me the logic in comparing Fedorov and Studebaker? Why not Tesla or Marconi?
          2. 0
            10 January 2017 22: 04
            Quote: M0xHaTka
            I would also expect a similar speech under a similar flag in English or French. But in Russian ... Generation of Fanta Stole

            I understand that you have nothing to say on the topic. But the snot on the asphalt to smear hunting.
            Go on, don't be shy.
  3. +3
    7 January 2017 07: 38
    That is, we are brought up in a love of symmetry, their asymmetry.


    This is especially noticeable on them, Ipenets, machine guns. You’ll break your head, how to charge and shoot it. Only one view pushes them into a separate niche from the Europeans.
  4. +7
    7 January 2017 08: 53
    Latvian arrows with Arisaka rifles. Northern Front, 1916. "Arisaka" of a Russian soldier. rusplt.ru/ww1/history/arisaka-russkogo-soldata-15
    275.html
    1. The comment was deleted.
  5. +15
    7 January 2017 10: 17
    For light machine guns, special cartridges were made with a charge of gunpowder reduced to 1,9 g, which helped Japanese machine gunners carry a large supply of cartridges.

    The author is a comedian or *especially gifted*? A decrease of about 1% of the total weight of the cartridge cannot have a significant effect on the weight and transfer of ammunition.

    In reality, a decrease in the charge of gunpowder for light machine guns was due to the rapid deterioration of the machine gun when using a standard rifle cartridge.

    The Type03 easel machine gun of the same time used standard 6,5mm rifle cartridges without any tricks. For him, according to the author, the problems of transferring the ammunition did not matter laughing
    1. +7
      7 January 2017 10: 49
      Alas, somewhere I took it and I liked the link to the source. Checking all the data is simply impossible. But if you are interested in this moment - try to find out what and how. Interesting things may come to light of which we have no idea. People here will appreciate it ...
      1. +6
        7 January 2017 10: 52
        Quote: kalibr
        Checking all the data is simply impossible.

        Of course. But:
        1. There are obviously absurd statements that simply out of general considerations require verification at best.
        2. An author writing an article for a serious resource needs to be much more careful than an ordinary visitor to the same resource.
        1. +3
          7 January 2017 18: 29
          It is necessary ... but something does not always work out! But why draw faces? I have 17-year-old students indulge in this. You write about a "serious site". By this you add seriousness to him?
    2. +1
      8 January 2017 18: 04
      Quote: murriou
      In reality, a decrease in the charge of gunpowder for light machine guns was due to the rapid deterioration of the machine gun when using a standard rifle cartridge.

      This is nonsense, of course.
      The machine gun cartridge G had less heat. Therefore, he needed less heat transfer. And for machine guns it was important. Especially for type 11 with its ultra-short barrel 490 mm. On a rifle cartridge, its rate of fire was noticeably reduced.
  6. +9
    7 January 2017 10: 21
    The rifle is good. But it should be noted that in 1939 the Japanese adopted the Arisaku type 99 under the cartridge 7,7 * 58, very similar to the British .303, but without a welt. If you believe the sources, then the Japanese switched to this caliber following the results of the war in China, ostensibly because of less slaughter compared to 7,62-7,92 mm caliber bullets. Although I myself doubt it. The energy of bullets 6,5 * 50 for the eyes was enough to kill a person. Most likely this is due to the fact that as early as 1932 the cartridge 7,7 * 58 was adopted for arming fighters, since in the caliber 6,5 mm incendiary and other special bullets are extremely ineffective, if at all possible. And then, most likely, in order to unify the cartridges, and decided to completely switch to caliber 7,7.
    1. +6
      7 January 2017 13: 43
      Quote: Comrade_Stalin
      the Japanese switched to this caliber following the results of the war in China ...... Most likely this is due to the fact that as early as 1932 a 7,7 * 58 cartridge was adopted for arming fighters.

      I read about it, I’ll insert my 3 kopeks a little: According to the experience of the campaign in Manchuria, the Japanese came to the conclusion that the 6.5x52SR cartridge had insufficient lethal effect, as well as its low applicability in machine guns. Therefore, in the late 1930s, the Japanese developed a new cartridge 7.7x58, which actually was an English cartridge .303, but with a sleeve without a hem. (S.)
      1. +4
        7 January 2017 14: 24
        Well, that's what I'm talking about. I will only correct that the 7,7 * 58 cartridge was adopted in Japan not "at the end of the 30s," but back in 1932 to arm fighters with special bullets, mainly incendiary bullets. The infantry was content with the old 6,5 mm rounds. The need for 7,7-mm armor-piercing bullets became clear after the Khasan conflict, when armor-piercing incendiary bullets were needed for machine guns to pierce the armor of tankettes and light tanks. Indeed, just in 1938 there was the Khasan conflict, in which the BT and T-26 tanks participated, which had light bulletproof armor, and therefore pierced by armor-piercing bullets at close range. From which the Japanese concluded that they needed to arm their soldiers with rifles with armor-piercing cartridges, for which the 6,5 mm caliber was poorly suited.
        As for the allegedly "insufficient lethality of 6,5 mm bullets," then, following this logic, cartridges 5,56 and 5,45 are generally children's toys! Although to kill a person, a .22 Long Rifle or 5,45 * 18 is sufficient.
        1. 0
          8 January 2017 18: 31
          Quote: Comrade_Stalin
          As for the allegedly "insufficient lethality of 6,5 mm bullets," then, following this logic, cartridges 5,56 and 5,45 are generally children's toys!

          Understand how modern "small things" work, and how they differ from classic cartridges.
    2. +3
      7 January 2017 16: 26
      The Japanese army fleet, especially in view of their constant inter-war war, was very little concerned about standardization issues. As a result, by the end of the Second World War, their suppliers were just .... out of a variety of ammunition.
    3. 0
      8 January 2017 18: 29
      Quote: Comrade_Stalin
      The energy of bullets 6,5 * 50 for the eyes was enough to kill a person.

      Such energy is enough even for a bow arrow.
      However, the main army (infantry) weapons are not designed like that. It is designed on the basis of their need, when conducting a single fire, to provide an RP at a distance of 400 m (450 m when conducting automatic fire). DEP is understood as 100% damage to the enemy's central nervous system with a high-quality bullet hitting the target. This indicator is calculated using a fairly complex formula, which includes the final speed of the bullet, its caliber and weight, as well as its ballistic coefficient. And also the type of bullet (modern "small" or classic).
      Taken together, this makes the 6,5 mm cartridges completely unsuitable for "infantry" automatic weapons. And the whole world (except the USSR) realized this back in the 30s of the last century. Although they can be used for service weapons for special operations. An example of this is the more or less modern Barrett REC7 on the 6,8x43 SPC cartridge.
      Quote: Comrade_Stalin
      Most likely this is due to the fact that as early as 1932 the cartridge 7,7 * 58 was adopted for arming fighters

      Nonsense.
  7. +8
    7 January 2017 10: 21
    The Japanese never knew how to make good weapons, especially firearms. Even the vaunted katana is nothing more than a cinematic myth.
    Top Japanese weaponry is the Type 94 pistol.

    1. +4
      7 January 2017 10: 51
      Yes, the gun is funny, to be sure.
      1. +1
        7 January 2017 14: 29
        Not funny, but you can say freak laughing . Not like PM, Parabellum or the legendary Colt M1911.
        1. +2
          7 January 2017 18: 27
          I wouldn’t refuse such a thing now!
  8. +5
    7 January 2017 10: 47
    Thanks to the lower weight of the cartridges, the Japanese soldier could take them more than the soldiers of other armies.

    The author clearly has special attention to the problems of transferring ammunition laughing

    And now a little math.
    The rifle cartridges of ALL powers that fought in the WWII had a weight of about 20-27 g, and this weight depended primarily on the bullet, which amounted to about half the weight of the whole cartridge.
    Moreover, the early bullets - heavy, dull-headed, were in all countries weighing 10-14 grams.
    Later - spiky, lighter, were 8,9-9,7 g.
    Slightly less than half the weight of the cartridge fell on the sleeve, on the powder remained 12-15%.
    Arisaka Type 30 cartridges (1897g) had a bullet of 10,1g, a powder charge of 2,0g, a total weight of 23-25g
    Arisaka Type 38 cartridges (1905g) had a 9,0g bullet, 2,15g gunpowder charge, total weight ~ 21g
    Mosin cartridges arr. 1891 had a bullet of 13,7 g, total. weight 25-27g
    Mosin cartridges arr. 1908 had a bullet of 9,7 g, total. weight 22,7g
    For all other countries, the picture is completely similar: old cartridges from new cartridges of the same country differ in weight much more than cartridges of different countries, but of the same generation.

    The difference of less than 10% is nevertheless more noticeable than the author’s previously raised to a super-significant difference of less than 1% due to a change in the weight of the powder lol - but that also does not make the weather, obviously.
    1. +5
      7 January 2017 18: 11
      It is good that you can count and - most importantly, do not be lazy! This enriches the site, so thank you so much for the calculations. It’s always nice when someone does something for you!
      1. +1
        9 January 2017 19: 54
        Well, I wonder, where did the idea come from that reducing the weight of gunpowder leads to an increase in the carried weight of ammunition? I would not even be surprised if this thought was born in the minds of Japanese warriors, crazy ideas are generally the fad of all the armies of the world in different years. But still a link to the source of thought is possible?
  9. +5
    7 January 2017 10: 53
    Great article! I read without stopping with great pleasure. The Japanese once again confirmed their ability to bring everything to the absolute, carefully separating the grain from the chaff, customizing the weapon for themselves, for their needs, and their capabilities. In my opinion, it is a pity that Russia at one time did not switch to the 6.5 mm caliber. This would give significant positive effects, but history does not know the subjunctive mood.
    1. +6
      7 January 2017 11: 11
      It was necessary to immediately switch to a 5,5 mm caliber, moreover, to a sleeve with a groove. Then our gunsmiths in the 20s and 30s would not have been tormented when designing light machine guns and automatic rifles. It is no secret that the ABC was discontinued and replaced by the SVT because it was impossible to conduct aimed automatic fire from the ABC. Yes, and cartridges in the store fit only 15 pieces. And so if the main infantry cartridge were a hypothetical 5,5 * 40 mm cartridge, then an analogue of the AK would have been created back in the early 30s. In addition, the 7,62 * 54 mm cartridge weighs 24 g, the Red Army’s ammunition was 120 rounds with a total weight of 2880 grams. At the same time, 250 rounds of 5,45 * 39 have the same weight. That is, a fighter could carry around with the same weight, or more than twice as many rounds, or with the same number of rounds, take an additional three grenades or almost a half kg of products: crackers, stews, or if the area is deserted, take more water .
      1. +1
        7 January 2017 21: 36
        And how would a 5,5 caliber shoot at an airplane? Or lightly armored targets? Or infantry some cartridges, the Air Force others, the third tankers ???
        1. 0
          7 January 2017 23: 25
          The planes would shoot 12,7 * 108.
          1. +3
            7 January 2017 23: 59
            You forget that in 1921 (the end of the civil war) there was no such caliber in the RSFSR! Yes, and the Berezin aviation machine gun was developed only in 1938, along with the first versions of the DShK !!! And before 1938, what would they shoot? There were only PV-1, DA and DA-2, and ShKAS all with a caliber of 7,62! 5,5 mm was clearly not suitable for them !!! Antiaircraft mounts and quads Maximov - 7,62!
            The first batch of ShVAK was made in 1936, but at first there were problems with it!
            1. +2
              8 January 2017 02: 35
              And for the fact that before 1940 there was no small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery, and a scanty number of DShK machine guns were fired, I must say a separate "thanks" to Tukhach, who raved about universal divisional guns, which would have been anti-personnel, anti-tank and anti-aircraft guns with equal success.
              1. +1
                8 January 2017 18: 45
                Quote: Comrade_Stalin
                And for the fact that until 1940 there was no small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery, and a meager amount of DShK machine guns were fired, I must say a separate "thanks" to Tukhach

                And why not Alexander III or Paul I. Tukhachevsky was just a deputy commissar of defense. And since 1931. not long was the chief of armaments of the Red Army.
                Soon in RuNet it became clear that he too had poisoned Dzhugashvili. The poison was just slow motion.
                Quote: Comrade_Stalin
                raving with universal divisional cannons, which with equal success would be anti-personnel, anti-tank, and anti-aircraft.

                Well, exaggeration is not necessary. His universal cannons should not be anti-tank.
                In general, it was a brilliant idea. Only slightly correct, not divpushki, but divga. Such universal 122-mm diva-howitzers would have remote grenades, and kirdyk to all the Junkers 87. They would only remember their name. And if they would have bombed, then ONLY from a great height, i.e. not exactly. A dime after that would be the price.
                1. Alf
                  +1
                  8 January 2017 21: 48
                  Quote: JS20
                  In general, it was a brilliant idea. Only slightly correct, not divpushki, but divga. Such universal 122-mm diva-howitzers would have remote grenades, and kirdyk to all the Junkers 87. They would only remember their name. And if they would have bombed, then ONLY from a great height, i.e. not exactly. A dime after that would be the price.

                  A grenade was called an HE shell, in which the deceleration varied quite widely. Imagine shooting from the M-30, with its rate of fire of 5-6 rounds per minute on the Yu-87, that’s what the Germans laughed at.
                  1. 0
                    8 January 2017 23: 33
                    Quote: Alf
                    Grenade called HE shell

                    The point is in the type of fuse.
                    Quote: Alf
                    Imagine shooting from the M-30, with its rate of fire of 5-6 rounds per minute on the Yu-87, that’s what the Germans laughed at.

                    Imagine. Especially do not forget to imagine the mass of a remote grenade and the amount of explosives in it. Including the number of fragments and the strength of the blast wave.
                    The task of defeating the Junkers would not have stood, this is not a full-fledged air defense. But to drive the Junkers to a height from where they bombed not aimlessly, such universal howitzers were quite capable of.
                    Actually, diva howitzers were periodically used during the war. But for this, improvised machines were used. Factory ones would be better.
            2. 0
              8 January 2017 16: 45
              So and comrade Voroshilov wanted to transfer tanks and BA from forty-five to DShK (DK), but they were released with great creak! Fortunately left 20K!
              1. 0
                8 January 2017 18: 46
                Quote: hohol95
                BA should be transferred from the forty-five to the DShK (DK), but its release came with a great creak! Fortunately left 20K!

                What is happiness? So BA could be used for air defense purposes. And so, using them was not easy. Silly buildings were.
                1. Alf
                  0
                  8 January 2017 21: 50
                  Quote: JS20
                  So BA could be used for air defense purposes. And so, using them was not easy.

                  We could. If the elevation angle would be raised to 85 degrees and increase the speed of rotation of the tower.
                  Did you understand what you said? Or outplayed at HERE?
                  1. 0
                    9 January 2017 10: 32
                    Quote: Alf
                    and would increase the speed of rotation of the tower.

                    Which tower? Down with the cannon tower. There a double DShK, maybe with a small shield. On the anti-aircraft pin. That's the whole "tower".
                    Such an installation would at least be a good defense. And from BA with forty-five points there was no sense anyway.
                  2. 0
                    9 January 2017 10: 34
                    Quote: Alf
                    and would increase the speed of rotation of the tower.

                    Which tower? Down with the cannon tower. There a double DShK, maybe with a small shield. On the anti-aircraft pin. That's the whole "tower".
                    Such an installation would at least be a good defense. And from BA with forty-five points there was no sense anyway.
                  3. +3
                    9 January 2017 20: 03
                    Tower with a gun down. Spark DShK,

                    I smell like the rationalism of the American pre-war school of tank construction))))
                    Machine guns and more! What do we have only two people crew? .. aah it doesn’t matter, the main thing is machine guns and more, MORE.
                    1. 0
                      9 January 2017 22: 19
                      Quote: rasteer
                      That we only have two people crew

                      What to talk about with a person who believes that there were 10 people in the BA-2?
                      1. +2
                        10 January 2017 07: 03
                        Yes, Che))) So we know the BA-10 had 4 people, but in your American-style technique for two people 5 machine guns easily.
      2. Alf
        0
        7 January 2017 23: 06
        Quote: Comrade_Stalin
        Yes, and cartridges in the store fit only 15 pieces.

        10, as far as I know.
        1. 0
          7 January 2017 23: 24
          The ABC contained 15 rounds.
          1. Alf
            0
            8 January 2017 21: 40
            Quote: Comrade_Stalin
            The ABC contained 15 rounds.

            Everywhere where ABC was described, it was indicated that the store holds 10 rounds. Can the evidence be very interesting?
            1. 0
              8 January 2017 23: 01
              Wikipedia.
              1. Alf
                0
                9 January 2017 21: 35
                Quote: hohol95
                Wikipedia.

                I believe you, but I do not really believe the wiki. Anyone who is not lazy can write in it.
                1. +2
                  10 January 2017 09: 49
                  Wiki is a fun source. Everyone can really write to it, but at the same time there is a mechanism for correcting errors and the possibility of disqualification of completely incompetent editors.

                  There is a "discussion" tab, in which you can find information not included in the main text, and its discussion by editors with argumentation for and against.
                  There is a list of links to primary sources, which can also be found much more than in the main article.

                  My opinion: Wikipedia articles can be very useful, but require VERY careful attention to the information contained in them, and especially on discussion issues.
            2. +1
              8 January 2017 23: 03
              Journal of Kalashnikov №4 / 2002.
            3. +2
              9 January 2017 08: 38
              You have confused ABC with CBT (AVT). The store for ABC ("curve" "horn") held 15 rounds.
            4. 0
              9 January 2017 22: 25
              Something needs to be written, otherwise the picture does not accept.
            5. The comment was deleted.
            6. The comment was deleted.
            7. 0
              10 January 2017 12: 53
              You must be confused with CBT.
      3. 0
        8 January 2017 18: 36
        Quote: Comrade_Stalin
        And so if the main infantry cartridge would be a hypothetical cartridge 5,5 * 40 mm

        Understand the types of cartridges. And do not confuse just the caliber with modern small things. There is another action. First used by Americans only in the 60s of the last century.
        Quote: Comrade_Stalin
        then an analogue of AK would be created in the early 30s.

        And where would the German contract soldiers be taken for this?
  10. +6
    7 January 2017 11: 43
    Here are the bayonets that are in the 2 picture, the Japanese in the course of the people killed more than Arisaki ..
    1. +3
      7 January 2017 18: 25
      You know, our Russian journalists wrote in 1905 that the Japanese are winning because they invented a "double attack": the first rank goes with bayonets, and the second crawls between her legs and acts with knives! , reprinted from one newspaper to another ...
      1. +2
        7 January 2017 19: 15
        The Japanese really had a cult of a cold weapon, even among non-samurai. In China, slaughter was not literally but literally. Nanjing alone was worth something .. Samurai practiced possession of a katana, soldiers with a bayonet ...
      2. +2
        7 January 2017 19: 17
        And journalists are always and everywhere journalists)).
      3. +1
        8 January 2017 02: 36
        In one Nanjing, the Japanese killed according to various estimates, from 600 thousand to a million people. And almost all were killed with knives, mostly with bayonets. And how many such Nanking were all over China?
        1. +1
          9 January 2017 20: 13
          The point is still not only in the cult. Listen to you so they Russian squadron under Tsushima on hand-to-hand grappling crushed. And the American battleships sank in Pearl Harbor because the ninjas were flattened with katana bottoms.
          Apparently the Germans scorched gas and hunger for prisoners out of love for toxins and diet.
          And white and red drowned each other with barges because in Russia they like to swim.
          So arguing, you can attribute a lot of things to different peoples.
  11. +3
    7 January 2017 11: 54
    Domestic sloppiness about this rifle -
    "True, the firing tables for the Arisaks (with data on the sight corrections depending on the distance) were first translated from Japanese incorrectly, and the units armed with them did not differ in accuracy, until after a few months the headquarters corrected the error."
  12. +2
    7 January 2017 13: 11
    In 1914, the colonel of the Russian Imperial Army V.G. Fedorov carried out a full cycle of tests of the Japanese rifle "Type 38", which showed that it was very rationally designed, that is, the very best was really taken from different types of weapons. Further, in his response to the rifle, he noted that, although it possesses excessive measures of accuracy (that's how!), Its production is cheaper than the Mosin rifles. Logically, after this, it would seem necessary to replace our caliber with a Japanese one and adopt a Japanese rifle and Japanese ammunition, but it is clear that it would have been impossible to do this during the war, but after the 6,5-mm caliber we “went”, it again occurred to our new military that “our gun is stronger than the Japanese” and to convince them of VG Fedorov failed! However, subsequent events in the arms world have shown that reducing caliber is a necessary thing, so the Japanese in the right trend, as they say, were, it turns out, more than 100 years ago!

    Smiled.
    Fedorov participated in the trials of Arisaki when he was looking for where to buy weapons for the Russian army (well, the industry could not cope with the release of Mosinki). And the caliber 6.5 mm Fedorov chose according to the results of studies of the slaughter of bullets of 6 mm, 6.5 mm, 7 mm and 7.62 mm, and not because of Arisaki.
    1. +1
      7 January 2017 13: 46
      IMHO especially new in 1914 Fedorov could not learn, since all these tests, with bullets of different calibers, were carried out even during the adoption of the 7,62x54R cartridge. Then we sorted out bullets starting from a caliber of 6,5 mm to 8 mm with a pitch of 0,25 mm. with real shooting at various distances on the "biomaterial" to clarify the lethal force.
      1. +2
        7 January 2017 14: 33
        Come on! The cartridge 7,62 * 54 was made on the basis of the revolutionary French 8 * 50 Lebel. They simply rounded the caliber of the bullet to the usual three lines, and pressed the sleeve so that the store did not protrude from the trigger guard, and everything turned around.
        1. 0
          7 January 2017 15: 51
          Come on! The cartridge 7,62 * 54 was made on the basis of the revolutionary French 8 * 50 Lebel. They simply rounded the caliber of the bullet to the usual three lines, and pressed the sleeve so that the store did not protrude from the trigger guard, and everything turned around.

          I confess :)), wrote from memory and slightly distorted the facts. Tests were carried out in the period 1908-1912 as part of the creation of an automatic rifle and the choice of a cartridge for it with a caliber smaller than the existing 7,62x54R. Experimental cartridges equipped with 7mm bullets were shot at the entrance of the research; 6,5mm; 6mm + in each caliber there were three types of bullets differing in weight + each bullet was fired from three cases of different volume. And the choice of the 6,5 mm caliber was probably justified not by an "exact scientific approach", but by the banal availability of a ready-made Japanese cartridge. Although, if history were formed differently (without WWI and revolution), "our Orthodox" patron may have been born, albeit with an eye on the Japanese "dad".
          1. +1
            7 January 2017 22: 00
            In 1913, tests were carried out on slaughter on the biomaterial of bullets of 6 mm, 6.5 mm, 7 mm and 7.62 mm calibers.
            The Commission concluded “that at a distance of 2700 steps, the 6 mm caliber should be considered for slaughter unsatisfactory.
            As for the remaining calibers, i.e. 6,5 and 7 mm, then their lethal action must be recognized as sufficient, and the commission found that the destruction of bones by 6,5 7, 7,63 mm gauges is more or less equally strong, while injuries in the soft parts of
            heavier, the larger the caliber, due to wider bullet strokes and more severe hemorrhages. "

            ...
            “Based on a detailed discussion of the firing protocol of May 4, 1913,
            placed above in full, as well as inspection of the manufactured preparations, the commission concluded that it is possible to finally establish sufficient slaughter of both 6,5 mm and 7 mm calibers, and there is no sharp difference between these calibers
            It was".
            Fedorov V.G. Gunsmithing Vol. 1

            The 6.5 mm caliber was chosen by Fedorov precisely on the basis of the "scientific approach". His famous submachine gun (or "submachine gun" as he called himself) was a rework of his experimental self-loading rifle for the Japanese cartridge, with the addition of a magazine with increased capacity and the ability to fire in bursts.
            After the revolution, work with the 6.5 mm caliber continued, but it did not fit into the unification, and work was stopped. And the cartridge 6.5x57 (the cartridge of Arisaka was 6.5x55) is called in modern reference books "6,5 mm Intermediate cartridge for the VG Fedorov assault rifle, model 1916".
            1. 0
              8 January 2017 19: 04
              Quote: Trouble
              In 1913, tests were carried out on slaughter on the biomaterial of bullets of 6 mm, 6.5 mm, 7 mm and 7.62 mm calibers.

              It seems that the experience of gunsmiths around the world for runet does not matter. But the scribble of the incompetent layman Fedorov matters.
              The whole world has established insufficient slaughter of cartridges with a caliber of 6.5 mm. The last in the 30s were the Japanese and Italians. But Fedorov, on the contrary, allegedly established their sufficient slaughter. And Runet does not believe the whole world; Runet believes Fedorov. Which by world standards no one at all, and his name is nothing.
              Quote: Trouble
              The 6.5 mm caliber was chosen by Fedorov precisely on the basis of the "scientific approach".

              Well, today the cost of this "scientific approach" is known. About a broken penny on a market day.
              Quote: Trouble
              but he did not fit into unification, and work was stopped.

              What unification? It just turned out the general figurativeness of its construction.
              Interestingly, are there really those who consider AF a successful army weapon? I have gen.2, because gen.1 generally could shoot with difficulty.
              Quote: Trouble
              And the cartridge 6.5x57 (the cartridge of Arisak was 6.5x55) is called in modern reference books "6,5 mm Intermediate cartridge for the machine gun of V.G. Fedorov, arr. 1916".

              Mauser’s sleeve, the bullet can also be seen whose. This is a cartridge from AF gen. 1. The one who could shoot with difficulty.
              1. +3
                9 January 2017 12: 26
                Quote: JS20
                The whole world has established insufficient slaughter of cartridges with a caliber of 6.5 mm.

                And switched to a caliber of 5.56 mm. laughing laughing laughing laughing
                1. 0
                  9 January 2017 12: 35
                  Quote: Trouble
                  And switched to a caliber of 5.56 mm.

                  Another one who does not know that modern small things differ from classical cartridges not only in caliber of a bullet, but also in the principle of their action on the target.
                  1. +2
                    9 January 2017 13: 01
                    What are you saying? laughing The Mosin rifle and PPSh in one caliber, and the principle of action on the target is different.
                    1. 0
                      9 January 2017 23: 01
                      Quote: Trouble
                      The Mosin rifle and PPSh in one caliber, and the principle of action on the target is different.

                      PPC. You would be silent on these topics, or something.
                      Only in new small things does the principle of influencing the goal be different. Ammo with classic bullets (except for hunting expansive), the same. Including in the three-line and PPSh.
                      PS. The "Mosin rifle" does not exist in nature. This is an invention of the profane from the Russian Internet.
                      1. +1
                        10 January 2017 13: 04
                        The Mosin rifle was adopted in 1891. It was designed by Sergey Ivanovich Mosin. All the main functional parts are designed by him, or with his participation.
                      2. +1
                        10 January 2017 14: 27
                        Quote: JS20
                        Only in new small things does the principle of influencing the goal be different.

                        And which one? And when did these miracle bullets appear?
                        Quote: JS20
                        PS. The "Mosin rifle" does not exist in nature. This is an invention of the profane from the Russian Internet.

                        And I shot from it. laughing And lucky to shoot a pre-revolutionary rifle with a rifle.
                      3. 0
                        10 January 2017 16: 27
                        Quote: Mikhail_Zverev
                        The Mosin rifle was adopted in 1891.

                        In 1891. The Russian army adopted the "rifle arr. 1891". Moreover, she was neither Mosin, nor Petrov, nor Sidorov.
                        The well-known gunsmith Nagan designed it according to Russian order. In before putting it into service, a special commission determined which parts of it would be subject to change. In particular, everything related to the cartridge was changed. Those. shutter and store. Because Nagan's rifle was chambered for ammunition. But later they decided to adopt the wound cartridge. Directly the decisions of the commission were implemented by a certain captain Mosin. He embodied apparently well, since he received a small cash prize, as well as promotion.
                        It is more correct to call a three-link rifle Nagan-Mosin. By the type of Manlicher-Carcano. It is called so all over the world. But in runet their morals.
                      4. 0
                        10 January 2017 16: 32
                        Quote: Trouble
                        And which one? And when did these miracle bullets appear?

                        Internet to help you. Everything is written there.
                        Quote: Trouble
                        And I shot from it.

                        Don't fantasize. Soviet rifles are generally referred to as "rifle arr. 1891/30". Pre-revolutionary, "rifle arr. 1891". There is no smell of Mosin here and there.
          2. 0
            8 January 2017 18: 54
            Quote: BORMAN82
            And the choice of the 6,5 mm caliber was probably justified not by an "exact scientific approach", but by the banal availability of a ready-made Japanese cartridge.

            But did the production of the Russian cartridge stop? And he became inaccessible?
            Quote: BORMAN82
            Although, if history were formed differently (without WWI and revolution), "our Orthodox" patron may have been born, albeit with an eye on the Japanese "dad".

            At that time, God was merciful, the freak was not born.
            1. 0
              8 January 2017 21: 21
              But did the production of the Russian cartridge stop? And he became inaccessible?

              Oh! :) Was this "Russian cartridge" similar to Arisakov's one already available?
              1. 0
                9 January 2017 10: 40
                Quote: BORMAN82
                Was this "Russian cartridge" similar to Arisakov's one already available?

                With which Arisakovsky? The usual Russian rifle cartridge. Why was he unavailable?
              2. 0
                9 January 2017 10: 41
                Quote: BORMAN82
                Was this "Russian cartridge" similar to Arisakov's one already available?

                With which Arisakovsky? The usual Russian rifle cartridge. Why was he unavailable?
    2. 0
      8 January 2017 18: 52
      Quote: Trouble
      And the caliber 6.5 mm Fedorov chose according to the results of studies of the slaughter of bullets of 6 mm, 6.5 mm, 7 mm and 7.62 mm, and not because of Arisaki.

      This speaks very eloquently about the "high professionalism of the Russian military". At the level of the plinth approx.
      It's that, as their followers fanned out after WW2, it's not a fairy tale to say. There is a cartridge of 7,62x39 mm and a weapon on it. Here and the cartridge 9 × 18 mm PM and weapons under it. And after all, that is characteristic, continuous rubbish. Substandard for the army. For quite good money.
      1. Alf
        +6
        8 January 2017 21: 53
        Quote: JS20
        This speaks very eloquently about the "high professionalism of the Russian military". At the level of the plinth approx.
        It's that, as their followers fanned out after WW2, it's not a fairy tale to say. There is a cartridge of 7,62x39 mm and a weapon on it. Here and the cartridge 9 × 18 mm PM and weapons under it. And after all, that is characteristic, continuous rubbish. Substandard for the army. For quite good money.

        Carbine returned, and I thought something was calmly painful, enchanting delirium disappeared.
      2. +1
        9 January 2017 20: 28
        7,62x39 mm and weapons on it. And after all, that is characteristic, continuous rubbish. Substandard for the army.
        Pleased laughing Go to your Canadian veterans of Afghanistan, and other hot Somali spots, how it is against the rubbish developed in the 40s in the USSR, washed down in the 70s-80s in China, in the 21st century there was a lot of fighting. And how dumb it is when a high-tech armor of the 21st century is shot by a bullet of the 40s.
        And by the way, your vaunted 5.6-5.45mm flip-flops are good as long as there are no bushes, but the banal bush makes it tumble and fly anywhere but not at the target. It was proven in the early 90s in Ossetia.
        1. 0
          9 January 2017 22: 14
          Quote: rasteer
          how it is against the rubbish developed in the 40s in the USSR, washed down in the 70-80s in the PRC, in the 21st century it was a great fight.

          He even in the USSR in the 70s kick in the ass gave. This is a historical fact. But no, there are still those who disagree ... They argue ...
          Quote: rasteer
          And by the way, your vaunted 5.6-5.45mm flip-flops are good as long as there are no bushes, but the banal bush makes it tumble and fly anywhere but not at the target.

          Another one of those who "firmly know" that the NATO 5,56 cartridge and the Soviet 5,45 mm are one and the same.
          I repeat the 236th time, not the same thing. And the M16A2 is not a AK-74 classmate. And who is interested in the details, let him read in my profile.
          1. +2
            10 January 2017 07: 24
            I repeat the 236th time, not the same thing. And the M16A2 is not a AK-74 classmate. And who is interested in the details, let him read in my profile.

            I'm glad you have such a memory for the number of repetitions laughing
            Of course, M16, in principle, is not friends with AK parents are different.
            And about the cartridge, or rather the ballistics of a bullet, enlighten why did you come up with amerikosy such that a superexclusively unique wink
            Probably the fact that realizing the uselessness of a somersault against a bronick stabilized it and now it is a hole punch with a low kill rate.
            Well, as they say, either pick armor or minced meat.
            That is 7.62, and it’s good that he doesn’t sew any bronic, but the mass one is accurate, and if he doesn’t, then the traumatic effect is awesome. And 5.45 and 5.56 are too light.
            By the way, in the 70s they abandoned 7.62 everywhere because there were still no adikvat armor plates and there were +10 rounds in the store, and the efficiency in terms of total nuclear war was calculated the same. Theories of nuclear warfare are such theories.
            1. 0
              11 January 2017 13: 37
              Quote: rasteer
              Of course, M16, in principle, is not friends with AK parents are different.

              And where are the parents? The class of weapons is different. Those. on TTX they are NOT classmates.
              However, laymen on the internet often like to compare them. At the same time, making profound conclusions, such as "a Gazelle is lighter than KAMAZ and therefore much better."
              Do you know what a "weapon class" is?
              Quote: rasteer
              Well, you Americans came up with one that is superexclusively unique

              I don't quite understand how I feel about the "Americans". But the Americans came up with small arms with bullets of a new principle of action. At the same time, first there was the M193 cartridge, and then the M855. For him, starting with the M16A2 model, their main infantry small arms were converted.
              In the USSR there was a cartridge of a similar principle of action, 5,45x39 mm. In China, its own - 5,8x42 mm.
              The Soviet one is too weak, which was due to the desire to use the "legendary mechanism", while providing more or less acceptable accuracy of automatic fire. As a result, the weapon on it, in its performance characteristics, does not reach the level of an army rifle. But at the same time it is quite a high-quality assault rifle. But this weapon is special, not the main army (infantry).
              The Chinese cartridge is too powerful. It is completely incomprehensible how the Chinese plan to balance weapons under him to ensure an acceptable accuracy of automatic fire.
              Quote: rasteer
              useless tumblers against bronik

              Penetration of normal "somersaults" is noticeably higher than that of weapons on classic cartridges.
              Quote: rasteer
              And 5.45 and 5.56 are too light.

              Have a wealth of experience communicating with weapons on a 5,56x45 mm cartridge? Or carry the usual problems of weapons on the 5,45x39 mm cartridge and carry it?
              Understand once and for all, M16A2 (and even M4A1), these are NOT AK-74 classmates. With all the ensuing.
              By the way, and not a classmate of AKM. Although a classmate of AKM in the United States for special operations is available. This is Barrett REC7. I highly recommend that the fermenters familiarize themselves with its performance characteristics, compare them with the performance characteristics of AKM, and then try NOT to tear out the last hair on your ass from chagrin.
              Quote: rasteer
              By the way, in the 70s they abandoned 7.62 everywhere because there were still no adikvat armor plates and there were +10 rounds in the store, and the efficiency in terms of total nuclear war was calculated the same. Theories of nuclear warfare are such theories.

              This is some kind of nonsense, which does not even make sense to read.
              1. 0
                11 January 2017 14: 39
                Okay Karl, I understand you. USA is a country where there is an army for which they made an army rifle, but we do not have an army alone attack aircraft. Maybe instead of clever thoughts about classes, you think about it, but how do these your different-class trunks use in real conflicts wink Maybe then it will reach you that as you do not name the barrel, it either answers the task assigned to it or not.
                1. 0
                  11 January 2017 15: 50
                  Quote: rasteer
                  but we don’t have an army

                  I don’t know what you have there and what you don’t have. But the AK-74 is an assault rifle, not an infantry. Exactly the same as the AK-47.
                  Quote: rasteer
                  and how these real-class trunks of yours apply in real conflicts

                  Conflict is not war. Ponder this.
                  Quote: rasteer
                  Maybe then it will reach you,

                  That something will reach you, I have almost lost hope.
                  Quote: rasteer
                  that as you do not name the barrel, it either meets the task assigned to it or not.

                  An assault rifle, in principle, cannot FULLY meet the tasks facing an infantry rifle. Although some ersatz-substitute for an infantry rifle, it can be. Those. it concerns ONLY good assault rifles, not all in a row. And it should be noted that just the AK-74 is such a good assault rifle.
                  1. 0
                    11 January 2017 18: 12
                    My wise friend, in one of the posts you compared the AK and M16 with the Gazelle and KAMAZ. Well, perhaps this comparison is not so controversial. The thing is under the concept of what kind of war these samples were developed and it is still important based on what experience.
                    Let's start with the M16 classic automatic as you call it an army rifle. Actually, these are weapons of total war of the WWII model through the eyes of the allies in Europe, large masses of troops maneuvering urban battles in open spaces are rare, the effectiveness of fire at distances of more than 200m is important.
                    Now AK, in essence, its concept has grown in urban battles on the Eastern Front where the effectiveness of fire at distances up to 200m was important.
                    And now let's look at the history of wars and conflicts after WWII and it suddenly turns out that it doesn’t smell like a total field war, all the movement is happening in the village, green, jungle. mountains shorter in those places under which AK was developed. And even a total war does not guarantee a change in this situation.
                    That’s the answer why KAMAZ is needed if Gazelle does an excellent job wink
                    1. 0
                      14 January 2017 00: 19
                      Quote: rasteer
                      M16 classic automatic as you call it army rifle

                      She's not a classic rifle, she's an automatic infantry rifle. That is, a weapon capable of achieving the performance of a classic infantry rifle in automatic mode.
                      Quote: rasteer
                      Actually, this is a weapon of total war of WWII model through the eyes of the allies in Europe

                      Can you "roll out" as an example at least one automatic infantry rifle during WW2?
                      You can’t. Then what are you writing about?
                      Quote: rasteer
                      And now let's look at the history of wars and conflicts after WWII and it suddenly turns out that it doesn’t smell like a total field war, all the movement is happening in the village, green, jungle. mountains shorter in those places under which AK was developed.

                      Strange conclusion. Especially when you consider that there has been no war on Earth for over 70 years. But there is no guarantee that it will suddenly not be able to "organize".
                      Quote: rasteer
                      That’s the answer why KAMAZ is needed if Gazelle does an excellent job

                      Bye bye. What if the war? What will you do? The last hair on the ass to tear?
      3. 0
        11 January 2017 14: 44
        I highly recommend that the fermenters familiarize themselves with its performance characteristics, compare them with the performance characteristics of AKM, and then try NOT to tear out the last hair on your ass from chagrin.

        That is, Fedorov was a handicraftman because he chose 6.5mm according to the results of the shooting, and your favorite American geniuses took 6.8mm for Barrett REC7.
        1. 0
          11 January 2017 16: 30
          Quote: rasteer
          That is, Fedorov the handicraftman because he chose 6.5mm according to the results of the shooting

          Fedorov is a handicraftsman for many reasons. Here are some of them:
          1. In AF ed.1, he forgot about the heat sink. They tried to solve the problem of already released samples by transferring weapons to aviation, where the airflow is stronger. The release of the "weapon" itself was stopped. The lethality of this weapon was normal. It was on its basis that Fedorov had to try to make a self-loading rifle. It is possible that having made it, he would have become famous for centuries. But self-loading weapons did not appeal to him, he was more interested in automatic weapons, so he abandoned AF ed.1 and made AF ed.2.
          2. In AF ed.2, he almost solved the overheating problem by loosening the cartridge, but instead the problem of weak slaughter got out. Because small arms, this is a tremendously complex product with many interdependencies. He could not solve this problem. Because all over the world this problem was then solved by using a LARGER caliber. And the 6,5 mm caliber for this kind of weapon, both unsuitable then, and unsuitable now. Those. it was a banal dead end. The weapons were removed from production, and the released samples were sent to warehouses.
          This is, in a nutshell, an excursion about Fedorov's "brilliant products".
          Quote: rasteer
          your favorite American geniuses taking 6.8mm for the Barrett REC7.

          I do not remember that the Americans were somehow especially loved by me.
          As for Barrett, there was also a lot of torment. And just because of his caliber. Which, I note, is not 6,5, but 6,8 mm. And this is a VERY important and VERY major difference. Less than 6,8 mm, with a cartridge with a classic bullet, it is simply impossible.
          There were many barrets before they brought the industrial prototype to the state of a practically ideal self-loading assault rifle today. Barrett M468, Barrett M469A1, Barrett REC7, Barrett REC7 Gen II. This last one is what I wrote above.
          By the way, I forgot to write, all these AK / AKM, MP43 / StG44 and Barrett REC7 Gen II are NOT automatic, but self-loading assault rifles. With integrated submachine gun function. Those. these are sheer classmates.
          AF of any model, which was, as it is widely known in the Russian Internet, "the world's first automatic machines", refer to them only indirectly. AF ed.1 generally did not fall into the "automatic" category even according to the Soviet GOST. And AF ed.2, formally falling into the "automatic" category, had the performance characteristics not of an assault self-loading rifle, but of a self-loading carbine (the one that is not a short rifle, but a carbine). Those. weapons, a class one step lower than the assault rifle. Why did the army need such a weapon? And on the original cartridge?
          In other words, AF were not normal, like army weapons, from which side do not look.
          1. 0
            11 January 2017 21: 07
            Lovely man. you bore us))))
            As the saying goes "purf or gone" on the basis of what plagiarism did you infer that the AF was overheating? Insecurity? Ha, let’s solder all the automatics for the conductor (this is not a guy with tickets, if that) and then finalize it in place with a file. After that we will be happy to hear your comments. wassat
            AF did not differ much from its contemporaries, not technological, not particularly practical, but as they say innovative now, Fedorov himself recognized the imperfection of the design. But nowhere is there about overheating! Is there about the quality of both raw materials and manufacture, but about stupidly overheating is not? You, as they say, be careful on bends, otherwise we will remember how Uncle Colt faded for capsules, and S&W already planed in full revolvers under cartridges wassat
            1. 0
              11 January 2017 21: 35
              Quote: rasteer
              Based on what plagiarism did you infer that the AF was overheating?

              Based on the fact that I understand weapons, and you, no.
              Therefore, I can easily understand what 3071 Joules do in automatic shooting, and you do not.
              I'll tell you even more, to get somewhere from this "trellis" with automatic fire was possible only by accident. The recoil momentum was just "horse".
              Quote: rasteer
              AF was not very different from his contemporaries, not technological, not particularly practical

              Read about it better with me a little higher. It is simply and readily written there.
              Quote: rasteer
              But nowhere is there about overheating!

              Apparently you read about AF ed.2.
              1. 0
                12 January 2017 09: 17
                Quote: JS20
                Based on the fact that I understand weapons, and you, no.

                Well, yes, well, no one will ever praise himself. laughing
                Quote: JS20
                Read about it better with me a little higher. It is simply and readily written there.

                Yes, you flatter yourself wassat What simple and affordable have you written about the design features of AF? Nothing.
                When shooting bursts, any barrel overheats sooner or later, I'm sorry, but there is a relative of the BAR’s AF, just don’t yell that he is a machine gun, but they had one AF machine gun, they had a single application niche. He, too, was overheating, but this did not prevent him from being in the arsenal of the US Army up to 60g, and Turkey as much as 80g.
                And by the way, there is his Swedish license Kg m / 21 under 6,5 × 55 mm all of a sudden and the Swedes did not like overheating and they made a replaceable barrel in the Kg m / 37 model and then used it up to 80g.
                In short, this is all to the fact that Fedorov was not an artisan and a dropout and he chose the cartridge as normal and the concept of a light machine gun was correct, and even the short-stroke automation is not so flawed. Maxim won generally screwed water cooling to her, as a result, machine-gunners-plumbers appeared. Fedorov summed up the low technological base of Russia.
                1. 0
                  12 January 2017 12: 18
                  Quote: rasteer
                  you will not praise yourself, no one will remember

                  Quote: rasteer
                  If such an AF is a relative of BAR, just don’t yell that he is a machine gun, but the AF was an automatic machine, they had one application niche

                  And how can you not praise yourself for this donkey?
                  Where did you notice the "common niche" for BAR and AF?
                  AF gen.2 (I won’t even write about AF gen.1, it was a fleeting phenomenon), it is an SMG (automatic) with very mediocre performance characteristics. Even more than mediocre.
                  BAR, this is not a machine gun, as you deign to call it, but a heavy automatic rifle on a bipod. This is evident even from its name, BAR - Browning automatic rifle.
                  Exactly the same automatic rifle, but much more stupid (magazine, return spring, etc.), in the USSR there was a DP-27 "machine gun". This is BAR's classmate, not AF gen.2 at all.
                  Quote: rasteer
                  He overheated too

                  It was an automatic rifle, not a machine gun. An automatic rifle is a weapon with a rate of fire of 60-80 rounds per minute. It is impossible to demand a higher ("automatic" or "machine-gun") rate of fire from such weapons.
                  Quote: rasteer
                  they made a replaceable barrel in the Kg m / 37 model

                  This is a machine gun.
                  Quote: rasteer
                  and the cartridge he chose normal

                  If the world experience does not teach you, then these are your problems.
                  I will not give you the formulas for calculating terminal ballistics, you can’t calculate them anyway.
                  Quote: rasteer
                  and the concept of a light machine gun was true

                  You need to make up your mind: AF is the world's first assault rifle. This is now a light machine gun. You will already decide what this "wonderful weapon" was.
                  I already wrote to you above, when using a rifle cartridge, this weapon had real TTXs of a self-loading rifle (which is carbine, not a short rifle), not even an assault rifle, with the built-in function of a poor submachine gun. In principle, everything is the same as that of the MP43 / StG44, only the Germans did everything simply competently (including the correct cartridge of the correct caliber), and not like Fedorov. And from this performance characteristics of their weapons were noticeably better.
                  But it was an assault weapon, not an "infantry" (main army) weapon. A small release of it for special forces and special operations is quite acceptable. But the mass army does not need such weapons. Which was confirmed by the USSR in the 70s with AKM.
                  Quote: rasteer
                  Fedorov summed up the low technological base of Russia.

                  Fedorov summed up the general stupidity of the design, which began from the very beginning, with the wrong caliber, and then the cartridge. Once again I urge you to pay attention to the fate of the 6,5 mm cartridge of Arisak in the Japanese army, from where he was expelled in the 30s.
                  1. 0
                    13 January 2017 07: 16
                    Where did you notice the "common niche" for BAR and AF?

                    The respected wisdom of your brain does not allow you to apparently accept the fact that both trunks were developed as a weapon of high-quality strengthening of the infantry squad, which in modern translation is equivalent to a light machine gun.
                    This is a machine gun.

                    Interchangeable barrel is not the main characteristic feature of a machine gun.

                    Actually, I already answered you about KAMAZ and Gazelle, you can think up a lot of things in terms of weapons classification, but the only correct classification will be according to the tasks being solved. And therefore, your rage over the assault and army rifles, all kinds of carbines and short riffles are pointless and interesting only to civil uncles who have not finished playing war games, couch analysts and forum trolls. Adequate people evaluate this or that model by the effectiveness of the solution to its tasks. And in a real modern warfare, and not theoretical one, it suddenly turned out that the M16 concept is redundant, and the AK is optimal and the world is not connected with corruption and contracts votes for assault rifles, not army ones as you call them here.
                    You write a devastating article or something with pictures, graphs and calculations, judging by the volume of your post-creation you are capable of.
                    For sim say goodbye really tired of reading your transfusion from empty to empty.
                    1. 0
                      13 January 2017 12: 37
                      Quote: rasteer
                      the wisdom of your brain

                      I'm glad you noticed that.
                      Quote: rasteer
                      that both barrels were developed as a weapon of high-quality reinforcement of the infantry squad, which in modern translation is equivalent to a light machine gun.

                      Weapons with an automatic rate of 100-150 rounds per minute are equated to a light machine gun (LMG) nowadays. Neither one nor the other weapon falls under this characteristic. Therefore, do not fantasize.
                      As for the "quality amplification", then with regard to AF gen.2, this is generally stupid. He could weaken the department. Reinforce, no.
                      Quote: rasteer
                      Interchangeable barrel is not the main characteristic feature of a machine gun.

                      It affects the rate of fire of weapons. And the increased rate of fire (more than 100 rounds per minute in a normal caliber) is one of the signs of a machine gun.
                      Teach materiel.
                      Quote: rasteer
                      And in a real modern warfare, and not a theoretical one, it suddenly turned out that the M16 concept is redundant, and the AK is optimal

                      I want to upset you, but you cannot prove your words with facts. The last war was 70 years ago. Therefore, your sayings about "modern war" are just verbiage. And the whole world is equipping the army with weapons for the cartridge 5,56x45 mm, and not 5,45x39 mm.
                      I would like to see you when Russia nevertheless moves to the 5,56x45 mm cartridge. She would have done it a long time ago, but expensively.
                      Quote: rasteer
                      For sim say goodbye really tired of reading

                      Yes, you should not spoil your eyes. Because You do not have enough qualifications to understand what I wrote. For now, at least. But nothing. Learn, contact.
                      1. 0
                        13 January 2017 13: 02
                        Quote: JS20
                        The last war was 70 years ago.

                        Those. in the year 1946-47.
                        The civil war in China, the war in Korea and Vietnam for you personally have remained deeply classified, not to mention more modern events.
                        I sympathize crying

                        You, dear, it was absolutely in vain that you started taking the support drugs recommended by your attending physician so much.
                        Jump, they will transfer you from outpatient observation to a hospital for chroniclers - and we will be deprived of the opportunity to further admire your "pearls" lol laughing
  13. +1
    7 January 2017 13: 16
    For rifles, the optimal caliber is 7,62-8,0 mm, which all subsequent conflicts have proved. The main problem of Yamato was always hunger for raw materials, hence all the delights and know-how, and not the concern for cannon fodder.
  14. +2
    7 January 2017 13: 30
    For light machine guns, special cartridges were made with a charge of gunpowder reduced to 1,9 g, which helped Japanese machine gunners carry a large supply of cartridges.

    This fable comes from the US Department of War Reconnaissance Bulletin # 19 of 1943, Japanese Infantry Weapon Description of the Type 11 LMG. But there "when using a weakened cartridge on a barrel 19 inches (48 cm) long, a speed of 744 m / s was obtained. In a similar bulletin from the 45th year, the speed is already equal to the real 732 m / s.
  15. +5
    7 January 2017 13: 57
    Well, the rifle is beautiful. One can only rejoice that the Japanese at one time put it into service.
    I think that our gunsmiths, even then and today, use a wide range of scientific and technical information to create their own, in no way inferior in combat qualities to foreign, models of small arms. Our problem is the launch of good models in a series, insufficient technological discipline in production, and also shortcomings in the combat training of personnel, operating conditions, climate, etc. not allowing to take root in foreign models and schemes in the army.
    As for the opinion about the underestimation by our defense industry and the military of small calibers of small arms, we can recall the existence of a machine gun by Mikhail Nikolayevich Blum under the 5,6 caliber, on which the methods of targeted shooting were successfully worked out.
  16. +5
    7 January 2017 15: 40
    Fedorov personally supervised the acceptance of rifles in Japan as a representative of the GAU. (Read his memoirs to the library) Buying rifles and cartridges was certainly a necessary measure, because in conditions of an unprecedented total war, European countries and the United States themselves experienced a shortage of rifles, and in Russia there was a catastrophe - according to estimates, the warehouses should have been empty a year later, and the monthly output was very small to completely make up for the loss of weapons at the front. The Japanese patted our nerves a bit and offered an obsolete boo with stupid bullets. Fedorov did an amazing job of accepting weapons coming from distant garrisons of varying degrees of wear. Naturally checked and cartridges of different parties. Perhaps it was then that he was imbued with respect for this rifle and chose the 6,5 cartridge for his product. A funny thing happened in the army with this rifle - the whole division panicked - the soldiers threw Japanese screw cutters who did not shoot and dragged from their positions. The pro-German government, naturally, was accused of everything - the German pests entrenched in the General Staff, and the casket simply opened. For transportation across the seas, rifles were heavily greased and no one bothered to force recruits to clean their weapons. The low level of professionalism at the front simply depressed Fedorov. After a business trip to Japan, he was sent to the front to restore order with the handling and repair of weapons in the field.
    1. +4
      7 January 2017 18: 22
      His memoirs were also published as a separate book and were published in the TM supplement "Arms", he wrote everything very interestingly and in detail ... And how amazed he was that Japanese soldiers brush their teeth ... and developing this topic, how the mouths stank then our soldiers? Ours didn't clean ...
      1. +1
        8 January 2017 19: 07
        Quote: kalibr
        how did the mouths of our soldiers stink then? Ours didn’t clean ..

        Bad breath comes from poor digestion, not from uncleaned teeth. Teeth are cleaned mainly to protect them from all sorts of different troubles.
        1. +3
          9 January 2017 20: 42
          Ahrenet laughing Did the neighbors of the minke whales tell you this?
          Let's talk chtoli.
          TIME. You do not brush your teeth, they begin to deteriorate, from yours on the human just to rot, and rotting becomes inflamed not only the tooth tissue but also the gums begin to burn. You probably have never eaten rotten meat.
          DVAS. You eat sticky porridge with multiple intersperses of sand and stones (this was still normal in the 90s) and do not brush your teeth, which already rot and look like ruins of a fortress. And all this variety of carbohydrates and fiber remains in the mouth. III starts to rot.
          In short, not only do you have Studebaker is the genius of shooting against which Fedorov the artisan is a half-educated student, but you also failed wassat
          1. 0
            10 January 2017 09: 55
            Quote: rasteer
            You also failed the dentist exam

            This * unique * it’s only in my memory that the third nickname in six months has changed: rjxtufh - shell - JS20, but every time from the start it’s flaming with its own set of unique nonsense, fantastic illiteracy, and even more fantastic self-confidence in ALL topics that it climbs to discuss laughing
            1. Alf
              +1
              10 January 2017 22: 45
              Quote: murriou
              Quote: rasteer
              You also failed the dentist exam

              This * unique * only in my memory is the third nickname in six months replaced: rjxtufh - shell - JS20,

              Before that, he was Carbine Zeus.
          2. +1
            10 January 2017 09: 56
            Quote: rasteer
            You also failed the dentist exam

            This * unique * it’s only in my memory that the third nickname in six months has changed: rjxtufh - shell - JS20, but every time from the start it’s flaming with its own set of unique nonsense, fantastic illiteracy, and even more fantastic self-confidence in ALL topics that it climbs to discuss laughing
            1. 0
              10 January 2017 10: 28
              the message is duplicated by mistake of the engine, I can’t delete it myself. Admins, please correct.
  17. +1
    7 January 2017 15: 50
    Excellent article.
    1. +3
      7 January 2017 18: 17
      Glad you liked it. And ... I already wrote about it that as soon as my friend gives me his collection of Mauser, there will be a series of articles about them. So now it happened. They filmed everything, picked it up, played, so the materials are written one after another. Go to the site and read.
  18. +3
    7 January 2017 15: 57
    This is an excellent article on the topic of the site, otherwise this propaganda about the Americans and their next "shame" or evil plans got out.
    1. +3
      7 January 2017 18: 20
      Do you not know that if you repeat halva-halva 10 times, it will become sweet in your mouth? And the Americans are certainly bad. Pensions for our money are 64 thousand rubles, salaries are appropriate (not all, not all, have poor, destitute, very poor ... like us, however), in a word they are enemies, because they live better than us ! And they want our Khrushchev and Brezhnevka to take away and settle their Negroes here!
  19. +1
    7 January 2017 18: 24
    After all the celebrations, like a "balm for the wound." Thanks! A few more pages in the printed book of your authorship ... Don't you think of publishing it?
    1. +3
      7 January 2017 18: 39
      Oh, you stepped right on my corn ... Of course, I want to publish everything that somehow got into the topics on VO. Convenient, right? But ... but there is always! Publishers do not accept books less than 10 author's sheets. 1 sheet - 40 thousand characters! It is easy to calculate that this is not a one-year job. And then you need a structure, logic of presentation and a PHOTO, a photo of PUBLIC DOMINE, that is, of general use. HERE ALL "RED PHOTOS" are mine, but ... in the book it is impossible ... "not red". One more problem. Of course, there is the arsenal of the SA museum in Moscow and I was there. But ... they will let you in and say - "get lost". And what then are we talking about? So, as you can see for yourself, there is a big problem with books. So far, only SAMURAI has been able to write - on what was here. Now we are talking about a new book about tanks. But ... it goes and comes out it's different verbs. It used to be difficult to write and publish books, but now ... it's also difficult. Then they asked: "Who are you to write about this? Do you have permission?" Now write what you want, but the market decides everything.
  20. +3
    7 January 2017 19: 15
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, you need to work on the manufacture. And then you can immediately see that you are far from militarism.
  21. +2
    7 January 2017 21: 15
    Quote: bocsman
    if the cartridge is weaker then why so much weight? What kind of mechanism if it needs additional protection against dirt?

    In order to reduce the return for weak soldiers (this is a classic), it is protected from dirt due to the usual Japanese theater of war - the jungle, tropics, subtropics - all rubbish could fall into the rifle, but the author actually expressed his opinion on this ...
    1. +1
      8 January 2017 13: 16
      To reduce recoil for weak soldiers (this is a classic)

      Interestingly, but for the sake of joke, someone tried to clarify for themselves the question: "Russian epic heroes @ weak Japs"? Interesting figures for 1900 are obtained: the average height of an adult Russian man (over 24 years old) is 165,5 cm., For a Japanese man is 161 cm. Everyone must have watched the chronicle of the WWI period - no heroes were seen in commercial quantities in combat units.
      1. +2
        8 January 2017 13: 54
        The guard was 1 m. 80 cm - standard. And the grenadiers ...
        1. +1
          8 January 2017 16: 38
          The Guard is the elite of those years, with the corresponding requirements for the physical parameters of the fighter. And the bulk of the Russian infantrymen are the same average 165,5 cm. My post about the growth of soldiers is not a "stone in the garden" of the respected Kalibra (he cites figures for 1880 and 1900), just on this resource, statements regarding the RYAV period "pop up": "The Japanese are 10-15 cm shorter and weigh 15 20kg less "
          1. 0
            9 January 2017 20: 56
            Average growth is a loose concept.
            It all depends on the spread of the minimum and maximum. In Russia, the spread was great, the geography affected Japan was more averaged. Now there is not a huge run-up in growth, good nutrition affects, but what remains is a certain fragility of the structure, few of them are "wide bones" if you say in Russian.
            This is to say that it is difficult only on the basis of growth to judge the other characteristics of a person by weight, stamina, strength, speed.
  22. 0
    7 January 2017 21: 40
    Quote: Dekabrist
    You need to work on making

    How to understand this? Making what?
    1. +2
      7 January 2017 21: 50
      This is an exclusively technical nuance related to your photo with a rifle in hand. The manufacture, in this case, for standing shooting, is the position of the body, limbs, head and weapon. Proper manufacturing contributes to the most accurate shooting, incorrect, respectively, vice versa. In the training of shooters, much attention is paid to this aspect.
      By the way, how do you like my article about "Anfield - Mauser".
      1. +2
        7 January 2017 21: 56
        Well, for a long time I didn’t really shoot, since 1977, that is, 40 years. And then the student even got the 3rd rank in shooting and got a diploma of a bullet shooting instructor. But of course I lost all my skills for so many years. And then it’s difficult to show the weapon in this position, you have to shoot from a certain distance and so that nothing gets into the frame. But the shooting is not in the studio and ... time ... time .. time. Courtesy cannot last forever, you have to hurry very much. So here it’s not up to poses, especially, as it turned out, it was shot!
        1. +1
          7 January 2017 22: 14
          Clearly, just the eye automatically fixes.
          1. +3
            8 January 2017 11: 57
            Probably, it’s not worth it to run into the author with the manufacture, a short and uncomfortable butt, designed for Yap 158 cm tall, in the hands of the author, which is clearly not a trifle, can make him not get so crooked ....
      2. +2
        7 January 2017 22: 36
        Liked it! Mr-X wrote very well about her. You have a very academic presentation, which is great. Probably there were good sources. I have a problem with this: for some species there are good sources, for some no. But there is a photo and there are samples for which I "held on". Therefore, one has to "coarse" some topics, others "deepen" to a certain "average level". And then - this is an age-related issue - I want to express my opinion quite specifically. At one time, editors asked me: "Who are you to write this way? And about this?" Now, fortunately, only individual VO readers ask this.
        1. +2
          7 January 2017 22: 52
          Thanks for the feedback. I was interested in your opinion. And the presentation is the result of completely despotic requirements of teachers of language and literature and a large amount of literature read. Regarding the former strictness with publications, this, in my opinion, also had a positive meaning. Now the dam has been removed and a shaft of frank rubbish has fallen on the reader, sometimes unprepared. By the way, history is a vivid example of this.
  23. 0
    8 January 2017 08: 48
    Quote: Dekabrist
    Regarding the former strictness with publications, this, in my opinion, also had a positive meaning. Now the dam has been removed and a shaft of frank rubbish has fallen on the reader, sometimes unprepared.


    And I agree with that. But ... people are people (and there were!) And here's a situation for you: you wrote a book for children, a good book, because then it was published. But ... the reviewer is afraid to give a positive review (over ... better than not ...). As a result, he writes: "And the Chukchi children do not have ice cream sticks, but you recommend them ... But we must give the materials accessible to children!" And how will you prove that you are not a camel? I wrote a review of the candidate of pedagogical sciences, not a match for you. As a result, I wrote my first book in 1982, and it was published in 1987 in Belarus and then by a miracle. But the circulation of 87000 was sold in two weeks! But after that that first book was accepted with a bang. Now "children of the Chukchi" have become unimportant. The author has a name and circulation! This is about the question of justice under socialism ... But you had to look into the content and think!
    1. +2
      8 January 2017 15: 31
      I, without disproving the presence of negative points, said that there were positive ones. There were frank nonsense. The first section of ink was painted over for me by half of the report on industrial practice, and it was copied from Basov’s book, taken in the library, from cover to cover. The question is that everyone was derailed, and the baby was splashed out with water.
      By the way, all the time I want to ask you, as a historian about the new Orleans Virgo in the fight against Norman theory. Her name is Lydia Grotto. She appeared on the site recently. If possible, the opinion of a professional.
      1. 0
        8 January 2017 16: 50
        This is the first time I hear this name. You know I specialize in "narrows". The "Norman theory" is too broad a thing to understand. I’ll tell you about the pommel of swords. About burials and notches on blades ... And what who, where, who refutes IN GENERAL, I'm not at all interested. From experience I can only say one thing. If she is young and takes up this topic, then she is stupid. If the old ... then doubly stupid. This is the topic where you will not find laurels. Too much land has to be dug up. How many years Kirpichnikov has been digging. And read his articles about the Battle on the Ice - one laugh. On the one hand, on the other ... and in the end, apart from the chronicles, there is NOTHING. So it is here. There are mounds, there are swords, there are brooches ... there is no "Norman theory". Creation of enemies! Well there is no way.
        1. +2
          8 January 2017 19: 37
          Maybe laurels are not interesting for a person. Maybe she swung at the crown of thorns. In the section "History" of January 1, the article: "Riddles of Russian history. Demography against Normanism." Suddenly you will find time to look.
          1. +1
            9 January 2017 07: 57
            I read. I did not comment as I did not find anything new for myself. For a scientific article - not enough! For the popular - too scientific. It is clear that a person studies ... But let him study not on me ...
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. The comment was deleted.
            3. +2
              9 January 2017 10: 32
              At least learned how to feel the conjuncture. Or maybe I'm wrong and criticize in vain. Time will tell.
          2. The comment was deleted.
  24. +1
    8 January 2017 11: 24
    As my older friends told me, in the 50s and 60s, on our Sakhalin Island in the area of ​​Poshchino Roshchino, Arisak and ammunition for them were very crowded, altered to trimmings. There were almost no dogs in the villages, according to the stories of an older friend, but what does she bark when walking through the village at night, bang, and there is no annoying barking!
  25. 0
    9 January 2017 12: 30
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    the height of the Japanese soldier did not exceed 157 cm, and the weight was 48 kg, that is, they almost completely suffered from dystrophy

    No, just the growth and weight of mankind over the past 100-plus years has increased significantly. Take an interest in the growth and weight of Russians in the late 19th century. Very surprised.
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    therefore, the new chief of the rifle division of the Tokyo arsenal, Colonel Naryakira Arisaka (he replaced Murat, who had already become major general by that time), decided to reduce the caliber of the future rifle to 6,5 mm.

    This decision then cost Japan a lot of money, because had to rearm again. This time on the cartridge of a caliber normal for the army.
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    Again, they turned to the experience of Europe and found out that there the smallest and weakest in terms of recoil was the Italian 6,5-mm cartridge from the Manlicher-Carcano rifle.

    And this had to rearm. True, before 2MB they did not have time to do this. Therefore, they were rearmament after 2MB.
    In fact, just a role model was chosen incorrectly.
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    a new cartridge was adopted for the imperial Japanese army, now not with a blunt-pointed, but with a pointed bullet weighing 8,9 g and with a cylindrical bottom.

    This was the beginning of the end of the main army cartridges in caliber 6.5 mm.
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    For light machine guns, special cartridges were made with a charge of gunpowder reduced to 1,9 g, which helped Japanese machine gunners carry a large supply of cartridges.

    Machine gun cartridges G were made weaker to ensure their rate of fire. Because their trunks were shorter and they could not provide the heat sink they needed. Therefore, they reduced the heat supply.
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    where it was produced under the designation 6,5x51SR and exported to Russia, which purchased Arisaka rifles in Japan.

    Yes, such, little-for-what rifles through the efforts of one "activist" Russia at one time bought in Japan.
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    Moreover, according to the experience of the war, it was concluded that its bullets have a good penetrating and lethal effect.

    Vyacheslav, why are you writing deliberate nonsense? Just according to the results of 1MB, the Japanese and Italians came to the absolutely correct conclusion that the insufficient slaughter of their rifles. Which made them rearm in other calibers in the 30s (Italians didn’t have time before 2MB, although they did). These are obvious historical facts, why go across?
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    In addition, the 6,5 × 50 mm cartridge of Arisaka had a reduced recoil momentum, which positively reflected on the accuracy of shooting.

    The recoil momentum does not affect the accuracy of single shots in any way.
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    however, the term "stronger" does not mean killer

    That, yes. But if we take into account the calibers of the three-line and Arisaki, then definitely, the cartridge of the three-line is more lethal.
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    as determined by physicians who studied wounds in hospitals, both rifles were almost identical.

    These are stories. However, doctors could "define" anything.
    By the way, doctors around the world and weapons experts do not agree with them. As well as theoretical calculations. Yes, yes, terminal ballistics is a science. And it lends itself to calculation. It is a pity that in the USSR they learned about it relatively recently.
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    In 1914, Colonel of the Russian Imperial Army V.G. Fedorov conducted a full test cycle of the Japanese Type 38 rifle

    I imagine this "full test cycle".
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    although it has redundant accuracy

    Fedorov’s salary was excessive. And the rank.
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    its production is cheaper than Mosin rifles.

    The production of axes and pitchforks is even cheaper.
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    Logically, after that, it would seem that we should replace our caliber with Japanese

    On the basis of what? Based on the "research" of some crazy colonel there?
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    and after the 6,5 mm caliber we "went"

    Almost gone. And thank God that almost.
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    and convince them V.G. Fedorov never succeeded!

    Lucky. If it was possible, it would be a big trouble in the USSR during WW2. So the weapon was very "not very", but with such a cartridge there would be a complete blockage.
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    However, subsequent events in the weapons world showed that caliber reduction is a necessary thing, so the Japanese, as they say now, were, it turns out, more than 100 years ago!

    Vyacheslav, you will learn how the principle of action of new small things differs in the principle of action of classic cartridges. And do not write such nonsense anymore.
    In general, the first part is completely nothing. But in the second there are too many shoals.
    1. 0
      9 January 2017 14: 21
      You have not convinced me of anything.
      1. 0
        9 January 2017 14: 27
        Quote: kalibr
        You have not convinced me of anything.

        I have pointed out your mistakes to you, and how to deal with this is your problem.
        1. +3
          9 January 2017 15: 23
          Of course, you indicated mistakes, and even almost correctly, however, you also get carried away at turns. Your remarks about Fedorov, as a "crazy colonel", allows you to classify you in the category of "sofa experts" with overestimated self-esteem. And the problems of the Russian army in the First World War with weapons are a topic for a separate article.
          1. 0
            9 January 2017 17: 15
            Of course, you indicated mistakes, and even almost correctly, however, you also get carried away at turns. Your remarks about Fedorov as a "crazy colonel" allows you to classify you as a "sofa expert" with high self-esteem.

            It's your right. However, in the activities of this "figure" I did not find anything useful for the country and its people. Maybe I don’t know something, then correct me.
            At the same time, the facts that I have at my disposal clearly indicate that he repeatedly made attempts to "bend his line." Completely mistaken, now (in the world it is already about 100 years old, in the USSR a little less) this is not even subject to any doubt. Those. repeatedly tried to harm the country and its people. Even though unknowingly, this does not negate the fact itself.
            As for the "world's first machine gun", if I were his admirers, I would not be so delighted.
            Well, if only because it was a "winter machine". Because in the summer its performance characteristics did not reach the performance characteristics of machine guns, and in fact in summer it was a weapon of the AR category (automatic rifle), not an SMG (machine gun).
            As for the indicators of lethality, in fact it was a carbine-machine gun, but on a weakened rifle (later called intermediate) cartridge. Those. the cartridge is one step higher than the final product. In the field of shooting design, such a product is most often called "shit". I am very glad that at one time in the USSR they figured it out and did not launch AF into mass production. Despite all the efforts of Fedorov.
            This concerns the AF edition 2. As for its product edition 1, it was completely inoperative in the infantry.
            And finally. The first fully functional army (infantry) machine gun was made by the Americans in the 60s of the last century. It was called M16A1. In principle, Thompson was also nothing on the post-war cartridge, but it is difficult to call him fully capable. The rest of the pitiful artefacts on this topic could bear the maximum title of "special purpose army weapons." Those. there was no particular need for him. What was, what was not, no difference.
            1. +6
              9 January 2017 20: 34
              I think that from the fact that you did not find something there, Fedorov’s authority will not suffer.
              1. 0
                9 January 2017 22: 52
                That's for sure. Anyone who wants to see a black cat in a dark room will definitely see her. Even if she’s not there.
    2. +1
      9 January 2017 16: 23
      Mexico. The Mexican government ordered 40 thousand rifles in 1910 under the cartridge 7x57 mm Mauser. But before the overthrow of President Porfirio Diaz in 1911, only about 5 thousand copies were delivered to the country.
      The British Empire acquired 150 thousand types 30 and 38 rifles from Japan after the outbreak of the First World War. Basically, this weapon was used as a training weapon and was declared obsolete in 1921.
      The Russian Empire acquired 35400 weapons under the 7x57 mm Mauser cartridge, which Mexico abandoned. She also received a total of about 128 thousand type 30 and 38 rifles from Britain in 1916. Russia used this weapon in battles in the First World War.
    3. The comment was deleted.
  26. +1
    9 January 2017 15: 15
    Thanks to the author. A very sensible article, about autumn an ​​intelligent rifle))
  27. The comment was deleted.
  28. 0
    10 January 2017 10: 31
    Quote: JS20
    Quote: Kotischa
    that Fedorov advocated a shortened 6.5mm cartridge for his "machine gun"

    He even almost smuggled his "machine gun" into production. But, thank God, he had mercy. Even illiterate Bolsheviks were smart enough to abandon his "masterpiece".
  29. +1
    10 January 2017 19: 00
    Quote: JS20
    Quote: Kotischa
    that Fedorov advocated a shortened 6.5mm cartridge for his "machine gun"

    He even almost smuggled his "machine gun" into production. But, thank God, he had mercy. Even illiterate Bolsheviks were smart enough to abandon his "masterpiece".

    Somehow for a very long time they refused. In 1918, it was decided to transfer the production of Fedorov’s assault rifle to a new plant under construction in the city of Kovrov, with a decrease in order from 15 to 000 barrels, however, only from 9 to 000, when the production of Fedorov’s assault rifle was completed, total output was only 1920 units. The team of the country's first design bureau for the development of automatic small arms under the leadership of V.G. Fedorov created a number of machine guns unified with a machine gun - manual, aviation and anti-aircraft (coaxial and built mounts), tank. For example, two Fedorov tank machine guns were installed in the tower of the MS-1924 tank, and it was in this form that he took part in the conflict on the CER.
    The Red Army was armed with the Fedorov assault rifles until 1928, when, in connection with the unification of ammunition, it was decided to remove from service the weapons of calibers that differ from the main one (in this case 7.62x54R).
    Machine guns were transferred to warehouses and were subsequently used only during the war with Finland in 1940, when a small number of Fedorov's machine guns were returned to the troops.
    PS Regarding V.G. Fedorov - before making populist statements it would be nice to get acquainted with his biography and works. Twice the general ranks (in the Russian Empire and in the Soviet Union), as well as the title of Hero of Socialist Labor are not just assigned.
    1. 0
      10 January 2017 22: 20
      Quote: oreh72
      total output was only 3 units

      Also not weak was wrecking.
      Quote: oreh72
      The team of the country's first design bureau for the development of automatic small arms under the leadership of V.G. Fedorov created a number of machine guns unified with a machine gun - manual, aviation and anti-aircraft (twin and built units), tank. For example, two Fedorov tank machine guns were installed in the tower of the MS-1 tank, and it was in this form that he took part in the conflict on the CER.

      Isn't it funny to write that? The whole world abandoned the 6,5 mm caliber, and in the USSR one eccentric pushed it forward sparing no effort. And this eccentric in Runet is called almost a genius. Although even in the USSR his "ideas" were ultimately completely rightfully hacked to the ground.
      I do not know the normal small arms created by Fedorov. Not a single sample. And everything that was "created" by him was inherently sabotage. A senseless squandering of public funds and resources.
      If you know such a weapon, then be so kind as to present it to us. The only trouble is that you can’t.
      Quote: oreh72
      Twice general ranks (in the Russian Empire and in the Soviet Union)

      So what? Are there many incompetent generals in Russia and the USSR? Or even marshals? That's all, without exception, judging by the summer of 1941. In addition to empty show-offs, they did not have anything in their luggage.
      Quote: oreh72
      also the title of Hero of Socialist Labor is not just assigned.

      Apparently the title of Hero of the Soviet Union was awarded just like that. Because quite a few GSS served the Germans at all. In particular, one (or even 2) of the "heroically killed Panfilov's heroes". There was some other pilot, at least one. I don't remember my last name, I read about it.
      So the heroes of fake labor in the USSR also should have been logically.
      Two and in general, all this "socialist labor" went bankrupt by the end of 1991. Together with "socialism".
      1. +1
        11 January 2017 11: 30
        Quote: JS20
        Isn’t it funny for you to write? The whole world was abandoning the caliber of 6,5 mm, and in the USSR one eccentric pushed him forward without sparing his strength. And this eccentric in RuNet is called almost a genius.


        Are you apparently an academician? let me know how many works you wrote on small arms?
        You are a recognized authority for criticizing the designer and scientist who has received awards from the USSR government Hero of Labor.
        Two Orders of Lenin.
        Order of the Patriotic War of 1 degree.
        Order of the Red Star.
        Who are you that your opinion should interest someone?

        If a 30 mm cartridge had been adopted in the 6,5s, it would not have been necessary to develop an intermediate 7,62, and then 5,45 - since the ballistics of the 6,5 mm bullet would have exceeded 7,62x39 and 5,45x39.
        The evolution of military weapons has now led to the optimal caliber of 6,3-6,7 mm.
        1. 0
          11 January 2017 13: 52
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          having awards from the government of the USSR Hero of Labor.
          Two Orders of Lenin.
          Order of the Patriotic War of 1 degree.
          Order of the Red Star.

          Do I have an extremely negative attitude to the "activity" of this Government and to some of its idols? In particular, to the "activity" of Fedorov. So clearer?
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          Are you apparently an academician?

          Can you give an example of at least one weapons designer (individual small arms) in the USSR? Here is at least one? Although doctors of fake sciences, generals-designers and other holders of cool "crusts" were there in bulk.
          Degtyarev worked more or less normally. But with big reservations. Dragunov can still be remembered. But also with big reservations.
          And that’s it. There you have the generals. Here you have the Heroes.
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          If a 30 mm cartridge had been adopted in the 6,5s, it would not have been necessary to develop an intermediate 7,62, and then 5,45 - since the ballistics of the 6,5 mm bullet would have exceeded 7,62x39 and 5,45x39.

          I won’t even answer anything to you. Because judging by the delirium written by you, you don’t know anything about weapons. That's not even a full bite.
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          The evolution of military weapons has now led to the optimal caliber of 6,3-6,7 mm.

          So tell us rather where this weapon of "optimal caliber 6,2-6,7 mm" was adopted as the main army (infantry) weapon. And where and in which countries it is produced.
          And then after all, whistle with a smart look, these are not bags to carry.
  30. 0
    11 January 2017 04: 40
    Quote: JS20
    In 1891. The Russian army adopted the "rifle arr. 1891". Moreover, she was neither Mosin, nor Petrov, nor Sidorov.
    .
    It was a design of Mosin, just she was not named after him.
    Quote: JS20

    The well-known gunsmith Nagan designed it according to Russian order.
    From the design of Nagan there is only a store. The rifle could function without it, being single-shot or with a magazine of a different design.

    Quote: JS20

    It is more correct to call a three-link rifle Nagan-Mosin. By the type of Manlicher-Carcano. It is called so all over the world. But in runet their morals.
    Yes, as you rightly pointed out, we are not dependent on extraneous opinions in judgments, and therefore it is more correct to call this rifle a Mosin rifle, as it is customary to call it in the country where it was constructed.
    1. 0
      11 January 2017 13: 57
      Quote: Mikhail_Zverev
      It was a design of Mosin, just she was not named after him.

      Just just flies will be born. Learn the story of the creation of the three-line arr. 1891 And it's easier, just re-read what I wrote to you on this topic. Everything is correctly written there.
      Quote: Mikhail_Zverev
      From the design of Nagan there is only a store.

      From the design of Nagan there is EVERYTHING except the STORE and the shutter. Due to the use of a cartridge with a different type of sleeve.
      Quote: Mikhail_Zverev
      and therefore it is more correct to call this rifle a Mosin rifle, as it is customary to call it in the country where it was constructed.

      I am tired of you with your retelling of the same nonsense. Repetition of the word "halva" in the mouth will not become sweeter.
      1. 0
        12 January 2017 11: 14
        [quote = JS20] [quote = Mihail_Zverev] It was designed by Mosin, they just didn’t call him by his name. [/ quote]
        Just just flies will be born. Learn the story of the creation of the three-line arr. 1891 And it's easier, just re-read what I wrote to you on this topic. Everything is correctly written there. [/ Quote] The nonsense of a stupid person with extremely high self-esteem is written there. I’ve studied the history of the Mosin rifle well.
        [quote = JS20] [quote = Mikhail_Zverev] From the Nagan design there is only a store there. [/ quote]
        From the design of Nagan there is EVERYTHING except the STORE and the shutter. Due to the use of a cartridge with a different type of sleeve. [Quote] From the Nagan design there are only grooves on the bolt and the design of the store, or is it not clear to you? Little things that slightly increase ease of use and all.
        [quote = JS20]
        I am tired of you with your retelling of the same nonsense. The repetition of the word "halva" in the mouth will not become sweeter. [/ Quote] Yes, I noticed that no matter how many times you repeat that 2x2 = 4, it just irritates you. Oppositional defiant disorder?
        1. 0
          12 January 2017 12: 23
          Quote: Mikhail_Zverev
          It says the stupidities of a stupid person with extremely high self-esteem.

          Goodbye, buddy.
          Take a pie from the shelf.
          And learn, you need to.
  31. 0
    11 January 2017 05: 55
    Vyacheslav, but with AK it would have looked more organic! laughing
    1. 0
      12 January 2017 07: 42
      Need to try! I have one interesting improvement for him. In the spring we will have a university scientific conference - I will do it for her. And then there will be a photo, I promise!
  32. +2
    11 January 2017 10: 29
    I would say - it was Fedorov V.G. that was "in trend".
    It was he who appreciated the potential of the cartridge and designed an automatic weapon under the 6,5 mm Arisak cartridge.

    It is to this caliber that modern weapons systems come.
    1. 0
      11 January 2017 13: 59
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      It was he who appreciated the potential of the cartridge and designed an automatic weapon under the 6,5 mm Arisak cartridge.

      PPTs. Even the Bolsheviks in the 20s of the last century realized that this was nonsense, not an "automatic weapon". But no, it turns out that after 90 years there are still fans of such a "strawberry".
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      It is to this caliber that modern weapons systems come.

      And once again I would like to remind you of examples of such "modern weapon systems." Can you write something on this topic or will you habitually get off with general bombastic phrases like "the fool himself"?
  33. tgh
    0
    25 November 2017 01: 56
    The transition to a new caliber rifle cartridges.
    The use of 6,5 mm caliber cartridges for machine guns in Manchuria and China during the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-05 to 1931 revealed insufficient penetration of bullets at distances of more than 1000 meters for protected targets (earthy parapets more than 25-30 cm, brick masonry more than 10-20 cm., metal panels with a thickness of more than 6-8 mm., etc.).
    Machine guns purchased during the Russo-Japanese War Hotchkins arr. 1897, chambered for 8X50R Lebel (Ho-shiki type) allowed to change infantry tactics when firing at remote and group targets. Previously, volley fire was practiced by an infantry unit (platoon, company, battalion) with adjustments and at the command of an officer at a distance of 1000 to 2500 meters. This task was now carried out by an easel machine gun at a stationary position with a heavy bullet, allowing firing at visible group targets (infantry units or cavalry squadrons) and targets located behind defensive structures (fortress walls, bulk parapets, sand baskets) and metal guards (machine guns and individual shooters).
    With the advent of machine guns type 38 obr. 1905 and type 3 obr. 1914 (copies of 1897 Gochkins chambered for 6,5X50mmSR), ammunition was unified under one 6,5 mm type 38 cartridge, special bullets were adopted (armor-piercing, tracer, with a steel core )
    But the armored targets that appeared in the hostilities in 1920-1930 on mainland China (armored cars, trucks with sewn-in sheets of boiler iron and armored trains) showed that even at distances above 500 meters, even special bullets (armor-piercing) did not have the proper effect (armor or did not penetrate at acute meeting angles, or backward action was not enough to defeat manpower and damage machinery mechanisms). In tracer bullets, a small amount of tracer composition and the difficulty in manufacturing special bullets (armor-piercing and incendiary) were noted.
    In addition, at distances above 1000-1500 meters with a crosswind above 16 m / s, the drift of bullets increased (from 2,5 meters and above) so it was impossible to talk about aiming defeat of small targets. Thus, the range of actual fire (at 2000 meters) with Chinese machine guns 7,92 mm type 24 (a copy of Maxim) blocked the possibilities of Japanese easel machine guns of caliber 6,5 mm.
    Despite the fact that the type 38 cartridge, when firing from rifles and carbines (type 38), and light machine guns (type 11) at distances up to 1000 meters, fully met the requirements for defeating manpower, the technical department decided to develop a machine gun cartridge for heavy machine guns machine guns.
    The original British 7,71X56mmR type 89 cartridge was considered, but it was not possible to make a reliable feed from the tape cartridge into the Type 3 machine gun. The cartridge remained on the Japanese Imperial Navy and Marine Corps for machine guns Type 89 and Type 92 (aviation and infantry copies machine gun Lewis).
    Using the 7,71X56mmR type 89 cartridge as a basis and adding a groove at the flange to it, a semi-flange cartridge of 7,7x58mmSR type 92 (with machine gun heavy, armor-piercing, tracer, incendiary bullets) was obtained, the geometry of the British prototype shell was changed. For this cartridge, a type 92 machine gun was tested, which showed a fairly high reliability at a somewhat low rate of fire (mainly due to the 30-cartridge cartridges used).
    In order to unify the ammunition used, a test of type 38 rifles and carbines adapted for a cartridge of 7,7 mm type 92 was tested. When firing from carbines, an enhanced flash of a muzzle flame and strong recoil were noted. During careless or hasty charging of rifles and carbines from the clips, overlapping and engagement of the cartridges with welts occurred in the store. (Rifles and carbines for the Type 92 cartridge were not commercially available, and were used in single experimental specimens.) Elimination of this drawback is possible when switching to a single-row magazine or changing the design of a two-row magazine (changing the shape of the feeder and the magazine case), and in the first and second case the magazine turned out to be protruding from the box and the dimensions increased. Measures were also required to increase the area of ​​the supporting surfaces (stops) of the shutter and to strengthen the hook of the ejector.
    Completely abandoning the flange, a type 7,7mm bezrantny cartridge was obtained (with heavy, ordinary, armor-piercing, tracer, blank, incendiary and sight-bursting machine-gun bullets). This cartridge was widely used as a machine-gun rifle. Under it were converted as existing machine guns type 58, the new type 99 and type 92, as well as manual type 92.
    The redesigned Arisaka rifle of the 1939 model under the new 7,7x58mm cartridge was named type 99.