White Guard armored vehicles

71
From 1917 to 1923, the Civil War raged in Russia. Many have heard of the heroic armored vehicles of the Red Army units that took part in the hostilities against the forces of the White movement - “Austin-Putilovts”, “Austin-Kegresse”, “Garford-Putilov”. But few people think that the White movement is also actively used armored vehicles - both trophy or inherited from the tsarist army by inheritance, and their own design ...





In the Russian army there were not so many armored vehicles. Most of them were built on the same principle: they ordered a chassis abroad (most often Renault, Fiat or Austin), after which they installed armored vehicles of their own production. And so there were strange hybrids with amazing names like “Austin Putilovets” or “Fiat Izhora”. There were a number of completely domestic developments like the Russo-Balt design of Bratolyubov-Nekrasov, but the number of produced cars of this type usually did not exceed a dozen. But tanks The Russian Empire did not use at all.

Two pilot projects were implemented (“Rover” by Porokhovshchikov and “Tsar-tank” by Lebedenko), but it didn’t come to a series, and then the revolution broke out, and the tank production moved into the background. It was here, already in 1917, that an interesting "division" of armored vehicles between the Red Army and parts of the White movement took place. The fact is that most of the armored cars of the tsarist army were inherited precisely in red - in view of the fact that they were based mainly in Moscow and Petrograd.

But whites, unlike the Red Army, had full-fledged tanks, transferred to them by European allies, - the Entente did not recognize the Bolsheviks and considered the White movement the only legitimate authority in Russia. Of course, the Civil War did not become a battle “tanks against armored cars”, but a certain advantage of such a plan existed. So on what did the whites fight?


Bullock lombard
Armored in 1919 at the Novorossiysk plant Sudostal. The car accelerated to a maximum of 8 km / h, but fought quite successfully.


White british

Before 1919, no side had any tanks. But the First World War ended, and the British government drew attention to the tragic events that took place in Russia. As a result, twelve tanks arrived in Batum in the spring of 1919 to support the White Guard: six Mark V and six Medium Mark A Whippet. A "School of English Tanks" was formed - there, under the command of the British, the first Russian tank crews were preparing.

In general, in the 1919 — 1920 years, the British were incredibly actively supplying tanks to all parts of the White movement — and the Armed Forces of Southern Russia (VSYUR) under the command of Denikin, and the Russian Wrangel, which remained after their rout, and the Northern Army. Only Kolchak in the east was left without British support - this was due to the extreme logistical difficulties in the delivery of armored vehicles into the interior of the country.

The 1 Tank Division of the VSYUR was organized on 27 on April 1919 of the year in Ekaterinodar (now Krasnodar). The division consisted of sixteen English tanks - four groups of four cars. Half - powerful Mark V with heavy cannon weapons, the second half - light machine gun Mk A Whippet. Tanks proved to be a powerful help.

The most famous operation with their participation was the assault of Tsaritsyn at the end of June 1919, namely tanks and armored trains played the most significant role in defeating the Reds and the final capture of the city. To a certain extent, the tanks had more psychological than fire significance, but the latter should not be underestimated either. By the way, not sixteen, but seventeen tanks took part in that battle: another Mk A Whippet with a British crew under the command of captain Cox joined the 1 tank division of the VSYUR.

By the end of the year, the total number of tanks at the disposal of VSYuR reached 74 units. Virtually all contemporaries argued that the Red Army troops, at the sight of tanks, tried to retreat and not take the fight, which, however, was absolutely the right tactic. The tanks could not fight on the front line and reached maximum efficiency when the line of defense was broken through by a preliminary infantry attack, which happened in this case quite rarely.

After the defeat of the All-Russian Union of Strategic Defense in the Russian army of Wrangel, only 20 British tanks remained, plus two French Renault FT 1917 models of the year.


Armored car "Colonel Umkolitvenny"
(not to be confused with the same-name armored tractor) repulsed by the Red Army and the Red Army in 1918. The machine was built by Heinrich Ehrhardt Automobilwerke on the basis of a military truck model EV / 4.


A small number of tanks, the British also put the Northern Army (four cars) and the North-Western Army (six). Kolchak's eastern army tried to smuggle ten Renault FT, but they were successfully intercepted by the Reds. All these machines had no serious influence on the course of the war.

Interestingly, a number of “white Britons” have survived in very good condition. This is due to the fact that they subsequently went to the Red Army and served until the 1938 year, when, on the personal instructions of Voroshilov, they were installed in a number of cities as tank monuments. The well-known Mark V in Kharkov, Lugansk, Arkhangelsk.

If we sum up the tank successes of the White Guard, we can say that if the British were a little more active in their "humanitarian aid", the course of the Civil War could really change - along with all the subsequent history. In fact, the tanks were too small, and the need for them was very significant. And therefore, original ersatz-cars appeared in the troops of the White movement.


Fiat Omsky
(“Long” double-tower version) not far from the headquarters of General Rozanov in Vladivostok, 1919 year.


Tractor - into battle!

Aircraft tanks based on tractors are an indispensable element of almost any civil war, even quite modern. Since the first tanks appeared in White only in 1919, and most of the royal armored cars went to the Red Army, the factories located in the territories under the control of white, were engaged in the refinement of tractors to combat status. In view of the complete lack of experience in such works, it was mediocre, but a number of interesting constructions are worth mentioning.

One of the most famous ersatz tanks of the White movement is the "Prayerless Colonel" based on the 1916 British Clayton & Shuttleworth tractor. The chassis was far from the best - just the only one that came under the arm of the engineers and workers who worked in the workshops of the Don Army. A massive armored body was put on the chassis, resembling a railway carriage. There were several compartments inside - the engine compartment, the control compartment and the combat compartment (in the aft part); armament consisted of a 76,2-mm cannon and six Maxim machine guns, and the crew consisted of 11 (!) people.

Disadvantages of the car turned out to be many. The rotation of the base tractor was carried out with the aid of the wheel, the wheel, carried forward, it turned out to be outside the armored corps of the "Colonel the Prayer-free" and therefore was in particular danger in battle. But most importantly, the armored tractor turned out to be monstrously heavy - the serial tractor engine practically did not pull it. As a result, it was decided not to send the car to the front, where there would be no good from it. The "colonel" was used to train the crews of armored vehicles, and then, a year later, was dismantled.

Actually, the British tractors chassis in parts of the All-Soviet Union of Military Production came from the same source, from which later the tanks. The British supplied the chassis Bullock-Lombard, Holt, Clayton; they were more often used as artillery towers, but three Bullock-Lombard tractors turned into craftsmen tanks under the hands of craftsmen. Two such armored cars were manufactured in Novorossiysk at the Sudostal plant. Unlike the Clayton, the Bullock-Lombard chassis had two driving wheels and was driven much better.

Externally, the armored corps had a classic layout of pre-revolutionary armored vehicles, including a tower with a Maxim machine gun (there were five of each machine gun on each tractor). The thickness of the armor was about 10 mm. Two Novorossiysk armored personnel carriers were named “General Ulagay” and “Valorous Labynets”, entered the 3 armor unit of the 2 armored division of the Caucasian Volunteer Army and quite successfully fought throughout 1919, despite the low (5 − 8 km / h) speed.

The third Bullock-Lombard was remade at the Revel plant and received the name "Astrakhanets". By layout, he differed from his counterparts by two machine-gun turrets. The car was handed over to 3 of the Don Army, but literally a few days later they were turned back, because the engine simply did not pull, the water in the radiator instantly boiled, the towers stuck, and in general the Astrakhanets didn’t even pass hundreds of meters on tests. The armored tractor never returned from the factory. Subsequently, all three cars got as trophies of the Red Army. The first two were re-armed and sent to the front, and the latter was found to be unusable and dismantled.

At the Taganrog plant, several more interesting machines were made - the ACS on the Clayton and Bullock-Lombard chassis. 120-mm guns (Kane guns) and armored vehicles were installed on the tractor - at least two such machines were made, although the exact number remains unknown. The ACS fought on the Caucasian front and in the spring of the 1920, the Red Army was captured, took part in battles for some time, after which, apparently, they were disarmed.


Bronedrezina "Benz"
The most unusual armored vehicle of the White movement was the Benz armored rubber car, created in 1912 year by order of the Amur railway for defense against Chinese hijackers. The armor trolley was equipped with 4,5-mm armor and a Maxim machine gun, but by the year 1918 it was used as a fire point on a mobile platform
.

The only serial

Prerevolutionary armored cars were very worn out and technically imperfect - their off-road maneuverability was especially bad. There were several dozen handicraft armored cars (we described only the most characteristic), and they were sorely lacking. It was necessary to establish at least some kind of mass production - and this was achieved by units of Kolchak’s army deprived of tanks. In 1918, Kolchak received fifteen Fiat chassis from the USA (manufactured by the company's American plant).

The vehicles were partially armored in Omsk and partly in Vladivostok; There were two types of booking. The first option, “short”, had a crew of three and the only Maxim machine gun mounted in the turret. The second, “long”, was more cumbersome, two machine guns were located on the sides, in the sponsors of the armored.

Native engine "Fiat" power 72 hp could accelerate the car to 70 km / h in the presence of the road surface, that is, the armored car was quite high-speed and maneuverable.

True, unlike tanks, “Fiat-Omsk” (history remembered these machines under this name) fought rather haphazardly. Of these, they did not constitute links or divisions — all fifteen machines were distributed between different parts of the White movement, and at various times they somehow fell into the hands of the Red Army men.

The design of the Fiat-Omsk was not bad, and at another time it might have been able to influence the course of the hostilities. But both cars and time were too short - the war entered a sluggish stage, armored cars were destroyed or captured, and Russia's Supreme Ruler Admiral Kolchak was shot 7 February 1920 in Irkutsk.

The White movement did not make a big contribution to the history of the development of armored vehicles, but it is still impossible to deny this contribution. Both ersatz tanks based on tractors and Fiat-Omsky have left their mark on the pages of history. It is a pity that even sensible drawings have not survived from them - only mediocre quality of the photograph and fragmentary information that make it difficult to compose a complete picture. In this regard, military historians still have a huge work front.
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  1. +8
    16 October 2016 15: 21
    The civil war nevertheless began not in 1917, as it is written in the wiki (there are a lot of things written on the fence), but in the spring of 1918, when the confrontation of the red and white finally took shape. So, for example, on 4 of April 1918, the Cossacks of the village of Nezhinskaya slaughtered the entire first city council of Orenburg.
    1. +10
      16 October 2016 18: 39
      I think before. Cossacks dispersed working demonstrations. Well, loving, with checkers and with whips ...
      1. +4
        16 October 2016 18: 44
        Quote: sabakina
        I think before. Cossacks dispersed working demonstrations. Well, loving, with checkers and with whips ...

        You know, if we go over to our realities, then the Cossacks in particular played the role of the modern Russ Guard. The government no longer had the strength to counter riots. And I'm wondering, and who taught them how to act in these situations?
        1. +5
          16 October 2016 19: 33
          Cossacks are riot police in internal showdowns, remember Kuprin: "Who is our internal enemy - Jews and scubents! Who is an external enemy ..."
          1. +4
            16 October 2016 19: 34
            Well, a tolerant editor doesn’t even give a classic quote, replaces the original words!
          2. +2
            16 October 2016 22: 36
            Quote: Aviator_
            Cossacks are riot police in internal showdowns,

            Which is now becoming part of the RossGuard ...
        2. Cat
          +1
          17 October 2016 18: 51
          I do not know. My opinion is that the civil war began with the campaign of General Krasnov on Petrograd on October 26, 1917.
      2. +7
        16 October 2016 19: 40
        This is about full-fledged military operations for the various structure of the state, this is a civil war, and not mutual massacre. Belokazaki in Orenburg 4.04.18 cut out precisely the management structure - the City Council. Well, full-fledged hostilities began after the July 6 of the 1918 year and the Czechoslovak rebellion at about the same time. And to consider 1917 a year as the beginning of the Civil War, in my opinion, is illiterate. War is the beginning of active hostilities.
  2. +11
    16 October 2016 15: 41
    Yes an interesting review of the unknown pages of the Civil War.
    smile The technique of both warring parties was of course antediluvian ...
    I immediately remember the famous scenes from the wonderful film "Two Comrades Served."
    Where both the Reds and the Whites fought than they have to ... all the same for me it is a tragedy of one people ... Russian ... divided for political reasons and self-destructing itself for the fun of the Anglo-Saxons.
    1. +13
      16 October 2016 16: 32
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      The technique of both warring parties was of course antediluvian ...

      Antediluvian ????? This is the point of view of a modern person. At that time it was the pinnacle of the engineering and military "flight of thought" ...
      1. +3
        16 October 2016 18: 46
        svp67
        Antediluvian ????? This is the point of view of a modern person. At that time it was the pinnacle of the engineering and military "flight of thought" ...

        Absolutely right!
    2. +5
      16 October 2016 18: 00
      You truly appreciate that historical drama. Unfortunately, Mrs. Clea wished that a similar tragedy happened in Russia. Formally, the Bolsheviks defeated, and in fact, various anti-Russian crooks won: starting with Luba Kronstein and K. in the SNK. A great many of independent valves: Grigoryev, Angel, Sorokin. Similar chieftains were from all over the former Russian Empire. And ending with international and ferist fabulously rich in the tragedy of the people
      1. +5
        16 October 2016 20: 45
        And then Ostap suffered ... Of course, "all kinds of anti-Russian crooks" really needed a Russian nuclear superpower))). Freeing the creative potential of the Russian and all accompanying peoples is the height of the dreams of Russophobes)). When you start bragging about monarchism and anti-communism, eat chocolate with bacon
        1. +4
          16 October 2016 23: 30
          Well, the Communists are anti-Russian. And do not say that they did not erase everything Russian from our state. Do not lie like that, to your own eyes. Destroyed a secular, spiritually developed, civilized country.
          "Unleash creativity" is so funny it's just creepy. Creativity was destroyed, in everything. Thought in chains. And what kind of connections were there with the whole world? With the mighty of this world. They were friends with everyone, overnight they became eternal enemies. And all for the sake of mixing the Russian people with countries of an "incomprehensible sort". Gaster in the current manner. Yes, even the nation is gone, just a Soviet man. And you are Tajik or who do not care. Mixed, turned into the 90s. The lines give off racism, of course, but sane and moderate. And there is nothing shameful about that!
          P, S And you, our real "Russophile", continue to admire the destruction of churches, the destruction of the Russian language, various renaming of cities, the removal of the history of the nation. Admire these anti-Russian times of the twentieth century ...
          1. +4
            16 October 2016 23: 43
            Everyone is surprised at the Ukrainian de-communization when they themselves were de-Russified a century ago. Doesn't bother me? Both those and those scum. Although all of these lines of my criticism do not mean that I do not admire the power of the USSR, the greatest achievements of this country, the people who did it. But nonetheless.
            1. 0
              11 December 2016 23: 28
              They deigned to call the scum, and then noted the power of the USSR. Very similar to a bunch in a puddle from a disturbed acid-base balance as a result of excessive work of the spleen
          2. 0
            11 December 2016 23: 26
            I’m writing late, but I’ll answer, how can those who made Russians more powerful be anti-Russian? What was already with the empire before them vividly showed its inferiority. The Yolsheviks, however, raised the fallen and placed it in the powers of the first magnitude. of which there were only two - we and the Americans. If you want to continue your ill-conceived rhetoric, I suggest you immediately see the root. Our Russian world at one time was shamelessly and cruelly scolded by baptism, which began with the bathing of Kiev in the Dnieper, how about you? As a result, Russian expansion into the Balkans was stopped, which was actively promoted by Prince Svyatoslav. Before Metropolitan Alexy the number of times, the supreme spiritual rulers of Rus were appointed Bulgarians, Greeks, who even at the time of the horde, even had a project to divide Russia between hordes and Lithuania. In light of the above, let's go beat Christians, but burn temples? How many Greeks Bulgarians used Russian women as a result of Russian submission to Constantinople, hehe ...
  3. +11
    16 October 2016 16: 30
    Thank you. Interesting.
    But I do not agree with the author that tanks, especially British ones, could radically change the results of the Civil War. The fact is that, unlike the World War, our Civilian was more maneuverable, which immediately reduced the value of British tanks, since they did not have a large mobility and power reserve. In this respect, French tanks showed themselves better, as they were more adapted to such conditions, this was especially well demonstrated in The Miracle on the Vistula, where the actions of the 1st Polish armored regiment, at Renault-FT, contributed to the defeat of the Red Army. But a good half of the personnel of this regiment were French, since it is not enough to get tanks, it is not enough to learn how to ride them, you also need to be able to operate them correctly and reasonably use them on the battlefield. Would there be many such specialists in the White Army? The Poles didn't even have one regiment ...
    In addition, the main hostilities during the Civil War went along the rivers and railways, which predetermined the success and significance of armored trains.
    And if you recall the battles at the Kakhovsky bridgehead, then there the Red Army units managed to stop the tanks of the White Army.
    1. +5
      16 October 2016 19: 43
      Moreover, the field fortifications of the Red Army near Kakhovka were built very competently and under the leadership of Karbyshev
      1. +8
        16 October 2016 20: 46
        In general, the Bolsheviks had at their disposal a qualitatively better officer and engineer staff than on the side of the Beloyad movement of traitors and accomplices of the interventionists
        1. +3
          18 October 2016 14: 49
          Quote: znavel
          on the side of the Belolyad movement of traitors

          There was no such movement - "Belolyadskiy"!
          The coming to power of the Bolsheviks and their policies immediately met with resistance from part of the country's population, whose interests affected the actions of the Bolsheviks. Signed in March 1918 by the Lenin government, the predatory Brest peace with Germany, depriving the country of vast territories and assuming Germany to pay huge indemnities, caused discontent among a large part of the population, traditionally educated in the spirit of Russian patriotism. The origin of the term “white army” is associated with the traditional symbols of white color as the color of supporters of the rule of law. The Bolsheviks began to call them "White" in order to connect them in the consciousness of the masses with the former monarchist Russia. Supporters of the White Movement themselves called themselves volunteers, or the Russian army.
          1. 0
            13 December 2016 01: 08
            Yes, the predatory Brest peace, the loss of territories. And you lost a lot in the end? If not for the help of the Entente to Pilsudski near Warsaw, they would even have added. Continue the devastating war, so that the monarchy, like Kolchak and Judench, can be comforted, hehe. They did everything right: made peace, prepared for the next war and won. But the big losses in this war are the result of the activity of white-caged man. They did not shun anything - they called on the interventionists, allowed them to take out everything that was not pinned, and carried out bloody and devastating hostilities for our people, as a result of which they still failed.
            Well, fight against your enemies for a year. Make sure not to cope. Calm down your ambitions, bend down so that the wave passes over you or eat over the hill. Let those who follow your enemies try to follow the path they have proposed, once they intercede for it like that. Let them understand where they are wrong or they will prove to you that you were wrong, but no. The war until complete defeat and a cowardly shameful flight from the Crimea or through the Amur to Harbin. Real White Clove
          2. 0
            13 December 2016 01: 10
            And about the fact that they were called white by the Bolsheviks-enchantingly. They were so suggestible that apparently after that they began to insert white ribbons in their hats))))
  4. +15
    16 October 2016 16: 36
    And no matter how many white tanks there were, they would still lose. Because you can’t fight against your people! The current white tape will suffer the fate of their predecessors. Those who are not killed will be driven to the other side of the ball with tearful memoirs sculpted under the crunch of French rolls.
    1. +8
      16 October 2016 16: 45
      Quote: Comrade Glebov
      . Because you can’t fight against your people!

      I don’t agree here, because the Civil War is also the Civil War, because one part of the people is fighting against another part of the people of ONE country ... So that your statement can also be used against the Reds.
      1. +6
        16 October 2016 18: 20
        In this case, the exploiters fought against the people. Even for the time being citizens, and then citizens of one country.
        1. +7
          16 October 2016 18: 36
          Quote: Comrade Glebov
          In this case, the exploiters fought against the people.

          You have an opinion since the days of the USSR. Both parties used both voluntary recruitment and mobilization, that is, since the country was a peasant, then mostly peasants fought what was there. Often there were cases when captured prisoners, that red, that white immediately MOBILIZED into their army. Not only that, the Red Army mobilized the officers who remained in the territory subject to it, but the White Army did not forcibly mobilize the officers, there they were all volunteers.
          By the way, in the army of Kolchak there were several parts of the workers, and VOLUNTEERS. Were they the same OPERATORS? And the Cossacks, what to do with it. They are the same divided.
          1. +6
            16 October 2016 20: 52
            It’s just you who are wrong, the peasants fought and the other side, too, but extremely inept and reluctant ... although they were one people.
            Pleased with the mention of the coercive order of the call of officers from the Reds and "voluntary" - from the bearded lady)))). Yeah. Russian officer, if he is a Russian officer, just let him be like an Englishman))).
            And kolchak who only was- and hde stink a mustache?)))
            1. +6
              16 October 2016 21: 28
              Quote: znavel
              in white-cirrus))))

              Extra evidence that the Civil War has been going on for a century and does not think to end. Maybe it’s time to unite already, Russia is in danger and it is threatened by an enemy of such power that it did not even have and it is far from comic. If you are patriots of Russia, let's defend it first, and only then we will figure out what and how to each other.
              1. 0
                1 November 2016 23: 57
                Really a whole century? And I think all sorts of Barkashovites for a quarter of a century build the true ones out of themselves and hold on to archaisms.
                I’m not averse to defending the homeland, just clarify to me the fact of the appearance of such an article in the military? And the comments of the followers of the white cadaver? I dare to recall, we are in the country of the descendants of the victorious Red Army.
                1. 0
                  16 November 2016 17: 07
                  Unfortunately, "the country of the descendants of the victorious Red Army soldiers" ordered to live long back in 1991.
                  1. 0
                    11 December 2016 23: 29
                    And the descendants of the victorious Red Army disappeared somewhere? The entire Russian Federation is still full of them, simply because it is the majority
            2. +1
              22 October 2016 17: 32
              Quote: znavel
              Pleased with the mention of the coercive order of the call of officers from the Reds and "voluntary" - from the bearded lady)))). Yeah. Russian officer, if he is a Russian officer, just let him be like an Englishman))).

              The "red officers" in the ROA also delighted me. True communists and cosmopolitans))
              1. 0
                1 November 2016 23: 54
                Not "red", but personnel - there is always a danger of treason. Such people come to the army for material things, but they forget about the sublime such as patriotism, honor and dignity.
      2. +2
        17 October 2016 06: 10
        It is enough to compare the number of armies, and it will immediately become clear on whose side the people were.
    2. +2
      18 October 2016 18: 19
      Quote: Comrade Glebov
      And no matter how many white tanks there were, they would still lose. Because you can’t fight against your people!

      Where did the whites come from Africa? wink
      1. 0
        22 October 2016 15: 47
        Quote: Bayonet
        Where did the whites come from Africa?

        But the reds were definitely because of the Pale of Settlement!
    3. 0
      18 October 2016 18: 23
      Quote: Comrade Glebov
      The current white tape will suffer the fate of their predecessors. Those who are not killed will be driven to the other side of the ball with tearful memoirs sculpted under the crunch of French rolls.

      So they’ll kill? This is in the homeland of your idol from the avatar, they practice it, and Russia is a civilized country! Yes
      1. 0
        13 December 2016 01: 13
        Russia is a civilized country and, like any civilization, it is simply obliged to get rid of the fools of "crisp bakery", which in their fantasies no longer even see the shores. Give them a king, gee-gee-gee
  5. +9
    16 October 2016 16: 49
    Provided by Great Britain to the White Army of General Denikin as military aid to combat the Bolsheviks who seized power in Russia, these tanks were captured by the Red Army near Kakhovka and officially adopted by the Red Army. And then, by order of Kliment Voroshilov, they were given to Lugansk as a gift. Today, the "British" who have undergone a complete restoration are one of the main decorations of the old city.
    1. UVB
      +3
      17 October 2016 16: 22
      By the way, the first picture at the beginning of the article is precisely the Lugansk tank. Pay attention to the board number (clickable)
  6. +8
    16 October 2016 16: 54
    Very interesting. Colleagues who want to expand their knowledge on the topic of armored vehicles of the Russian army and armored vehicles of the Red Army, I recommend the books of Maxim Kolomiyets ... I represent the image of one of them. All books are easy to find in e-libraries ...
    1. +8
      16 October 2016 18: 19
      So, for fun. Photo inside the armored train. I honestly don’t even imagine how they fought there, in such crowding. They were all mad and deaf there ...
      1. +9
        16 October 2016 18: 25
        Don’t say ... Infernal hell. That armored trains, that tanks of that period were those cacti in operation. In tanks, the engine was also in the fighting compartment and exhaust inside .. brrr.
        1. +3
          18 October 2016 14: 55
          Quote: Comrade Glebov
          In tanks, the engine was also in the fighting compartment and exhaust inside ..

          There was no exhaust inside, it is not necessary to consider the designers as complete idiots, but the heat and gas pollution were still those!
        2. 0
          18 October 2016 14: 55
          Quote: Comrade Glebov
          In tanks, the engine was also in the fighting compartment and exhaust inside ..

          There was no exhaust inside, it is not necessary to consider the designers as complete idiots, but the heat and gas pollution were still those!
  7. +2
    16 October 2016 19: 15
    Say what you like, but technological progress is evident, and Russia is ahead ... tanks have been made and not only learned ... !!!
  8. +7
    17 October 2016 00: 04
    Quote: masiya
    Communists are anti-Russian. And do not say that they did not erase everything Russian from our state

    Why is it not necessary?
    What do you need? To repeat all nonsense after the ignoramuses, or what?

    Crystal bakery fantasies are no secret to anyone, but the real facts are strictly classified for you.

    It's funny to hear your nonsense about the collapse of Russia after it was precisely under the Provisional Government that Poland and Finland declared autonomy, and then a parade of sovereignties went on. And restored the unity of the fragments of the former. RI is the USSR under the leadership of the Communists.

    It is interesting that the Communists erased the Russian people from the face of the earth, if the number of Russians grew, and much faster than the size of the entire multinational population of the USSR.

    Communists strangely destroyed Russian culture, the study of which was mandatory in all schools throughout the USSR.

    It is also interesting that the fact, strictly classified for the crushers, that the special role of the Russian people in the USSR was recorded in the state. the anthem of the USSR: "Great Russia united forever."

    And your ignorance of the fact that just after the collapse of the USSR began a real, and not fictional by you, large-scale genocide of the Russian people and the obliteration of Russian culture is absolutely remarkable. And not only in the national republics, but also in the Russian Federation. Under the cries of "Russian patriotism" and "return to the origins", yeah, yeah, which are remarkably combined by the crushers with the praise of the murderers of Russian and Soviet people, like Mannerheim, with the full justification of the punishers Kolchak and Wrangel.
    1. +3
      17 October 2016 00: 41
      The destruction of Orthodox shrines, churches and priests is the most important spit in the soul of the Russian people from the Bolshevik government. For some reason, the communists did not touch mosques and synagogues as they did to Christian churches. The emergence of such "great" pseudo nations and republics such as the Ukrainian, Belarusian, Uzbek, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Moldovan, etc. - all these are the merits of the red-bellied government, the fruits of which we will reap for another hundred years.

      PS Sorry, I forgot to offend the Baltic and Finnish dwarfs, but this is a separate song.
    2. +2
      22 October 2016 15: 53
      Quote: murriou
      It is interesting that the Communists erased the Russian people from the face of the earth, if the number of Russians grew, and much faster than the size of the entire multinational population of the USSR.

      Well then, compare the number of Russian population at the beginning of the USSR and after the collapse))) In comparison with, for example, Kazakhs or Chechens)
  9. +7
    17 October 2016 00: 13
    Quote: masiya
    Say what you like, but technological progress is evident, and Russia is ahead ... tanks have been made and not only learned ... !!!

    Nothing so that we learned to make tanks only when the Bolsheviks cursed you? lol

    And as for technological progress, in the Russian Empire without imported high-tech products there was no progress.
    Even such nonsense as steel pipes and bearings had to be purchased abroad.
    On the "Russian" destroyers there were German turbines until they were replaced by the British, and the guns, with the help of the British and based on the English prototype, were developed
    The "Russian" aircraft were powered by German, French and English engines; "Russian" heavy field artillery was made according to the drawings of Krupp and Schneider, or bought ready-made from Vickers.

    Most of the "Russian" cars were purchased abroad or assembled from foreign ready-made kits by handicraft artels. Moreover, a significant number of such kits were supplied by Italy, which the crushers call backward - but RI lagged behind much more, as we see.

    And they were not even able to finish building at least half of the "Russian" LKR of the "Izmail" type in 5 years, because supplies of components from Germany and Austria stopped.

    That was such a progress, yes laughing
  10. +3
    17 October 2016 00: 16
    Quote: svp67
    If you are patriots of Russia, let's defend it first, and only then we will figure out what and how to each other.

    Andrey Shigin

    Reconcile, laborer, with the tycoon,
    Kiss him on the mouth -
    He gives you a salary
    And jobs.

    Forget it, laborer, rather
    About soviet populism,
    Our common idea
    Must become patriotism.

    Only in this way we will master
    Only then will paradise come.
    You are for Mother Russia
    Or against? Choose ...

    Reconcile, laborer, with the tycoon
    For the salvation of the soul
    Call the tycoon brother.
    And go ahead, plow ...
  11. +2
    17 October 2016 00: 31
    Two pilot projects were implemented (the All-Terrain Vehicle by Porokhovshchikov and the Tsar Tank Lebedenko), but the series did not reach the point.

    What a series! There, it didn’t even reach the tried and tested prototype.
    The actually built "All-terrain vehicle" Porokhovshchikov had no armor and weapons, and its caterpillar was flimsy, fabric, and would hardly have withstood use at full load for a long time. Especially in battle.

    "Bat" Lebedenko was originally an incapacitated monster, and was only suitable for drinking government money.

    The Medeleev tank project was an interesting engineering exercise, but its applicability as a combat unit was absolutely impossible. The cited figures for its speed on the highway are delusional, movement over rough terrain is generally hardly possible with a specific pressure that was 10 times higher than this parameter for real-life tanks. This project did not go beyond paper at all, and it was right.
  12. +4
    17 October 2016 03: 40
    Quote: The same Lech
    Yes an interesting review of the unknown pages of the Civil War.
    smile The technique of both warring parties was of course antediluvian ...
    I immediately remember the famous scenes from the wonderful film "Two Comrades Served."
    Where both the Reds and the Whites fought than they have to ... all the same for me it is a tragedy of one people ... Russian ... divided for political reasons and self-destructing itself for the fun of the Anglo-Saxons.

    Whites received help from all over the world. They had better supply. (Ammunition, weapons, food, etc.) Why then did the Reds defeat? Probably because there was a people for them. I see no other explanation.
    1. 0
      22 October 2016 16: 12
      "At the end of December 1918, for the direct implementation of measures to combat desertion, the Council of Workers 'and Peasants' Defense established a Central Temporary Commission, consisting of representatives of the All-Russian General Staff, the All-Russian Bureau of Military Commissars and the People's Commissariat of Internal Affairs. "On measures to combat desertion" and "On measures to eradicate desertion" it was equated with treason and qualified as one of the most serious and shameful crimes "
      This is from the Red Army wiki. Heroic. What was the scale of ideological desertion when they began to receive armed resistance)) Just like ukronatsistov in the Donbas!
  13. +3
    17 October 2016 04: 57
    Quote: Alexander 2

    Whites received help from all over the world. They had better supply. (Ammunition, weapons, food, etc.) Why then did the Reds defeat? Probably because there was a people for them. I see no other explanation.


    Soviet stamps, better read historical works. Who was on the very white, and whom Soviet propaganda ranked as white. Not everyone who was against the Bolsheviks was supplied, but only "their own", the capitalists, their mother, had a selfish interest in snatching a fatter piece of our Motherland. This also applies to the Reds and comrade connections. Lenin with the German gentlemen "bourgeois and occupiers", as well as Comrade. Trotsky with European and American bankers. It's good that fate betrayed them, Lenin and Trotsky, not long. God is not Timoshka, he sees a little.
    1. +8
      17 October 2016 06: 20
      But didn't they? For some reason, the Reds, who were supposedly all English shpiens, were not supplied with tanks. And Churchill said, "My army!" not at all about the Red Army, but about Denikin. Onerous agreements with the "allies" were also not signed by the Reds, but by the "patriotic" Denikin and Wrangel. Kolchak, who switched to the English service, said about himself that he had fallen into the position of a medieval condottier - he admitted that it was banal an English mercenary.
  14. +6
    17 October 2016 06: 48
    Quote: sogdianec
    Quote: Alexander 2
    Why then did the Reds defeat? Probably because there was a people for them. I see no other explanation.
    Soviet stamps

    "Soviet cliches", from which the crushers of crystal bakers are so twisted and twisted, all the time turn out to be true - and this is especially hateful for the crushers of myths.
    The fact that 2 * 2 = 4 is also a cliche, and the Pythagorean theorem is a "cliche", and other elementary truths are "cliches" that are hated by many of the same twins laughing

    Quote: sogdianec
    better read historical works.

    What do you recommend? Corned beef? Rezun? Solzhenitsyn? Fomenko? Munchausen? lol

    Quote: sogdianec
    Who was at the whitest, and whom Soviet propaganda ranked as white.

    Scandals! Intrigue! Sensations! Waiting for revelations! laughing

    Quote: sogdianec
    the capitalists, their mother, had a selfish interest in snatching a fatter piece of our Motherland.

    And on this basis they supplied the white generals - "admirals", and not just like that, out of the breadth of their souls, and certainly not out of concern for the Russian people.

    "Quito is a girl for dinner, that is her and the danceuet" (C), who pays - he calls the tune.
    Or for you, secret agreements between white leaders and their foreign patrons on the division of the remnants of the Russian Empire?

    Quote: sogdianec
    This also applies to the Reds and comrade connections. Lenin with the German gentlemen "bourgeois and occupiers"

    I look forward to hearing from you specific examples of the supply of weapons, ammunition, uniforms and foodstuffs to the Reds from the Germans or other foreign powers. Preferably, on a scale comparable to supplies from the same powers to white lol

    It is also advisable to confirm the ties of Lenin or other reds with the German gentlemen with something more convincing than your usual tales about a suitcase of gold in a sealed carriage laughing

    Quote: sogdianec
    God is not Timoshka, he sees a little.

    Well, how can you not refer to God when there are no other arguments laughing

    But since “God is not a fraer,” and “there is no power if not from God,” and “nothing will happen except by His will,” then the victory of the Bolsheviks is the choice of the Lord. Ali is wrong? feel
    1. +2
      17 October 2016 15: 06
      Do you know anything about Parvus? And about Zhivotovsky? The conclusion of the shameful Brest Peace Treaty is perhaps not evidence of the venality of the Leninist government. Maybe God gave our country Stalin to punish the Bolsheviks for their bloody deeds. So that the "Leninist Guard" - Bronstein, Bukharin, Rykov, Radomyslsky (aka Zinoviev) and others were destroyed, since apart from the destruction of the state it was not capable of anything.
    2. +2
      18 October 2016 15: 02
      Quote: murriou
      bakeries

      What nasty verbiage? A typical product of Bolshevik agitators! negative
      1. +1
        22 October 2016 16: 14
        Quote: Bayonet
        bakeries

        Quote: Bayonet
        What nasty verbiage?

        The Reds are in fashion matzoh crunch)))
  15. The comment was deleted.
  16. +3
    17 October 2016 19: 38
    1. You, "Sogdian", did not answer my questions and tried to "overlook" them, almost all of them. laughing

    2. On the only one "noticed" by you lol My question is that instead of real evidence, you tried to refer to some fairy tales and illogical assumptions, which I will discuss below.

    3. You could not give ANY example of supplies to the Reds during the Civil War - from any foreign power - weapons, ammunition, uniforms and shoes, food, etc.

    4. You could not deny that it was the whites who had such supplies from foreign powers, and on a large scale — most of the heavy weapons needs were provided by foreign supplies, as well as a significant part of other needs.

    5. In addition, there were numerous facts of intervention in the civil war by the expeditionary forces of foreign powers on the side of precisely the whites, not the reds.

    6. You could not deny the agreement of the whites with foreign powers on the payment of this foreign aid by the sovereignty of the formerly Russian lands that came to be in the power of the whites in the event of their expected victory.
    0. *rhetorical question* and what follows from all this? wink

    Quote: sogdianec
    Do you know anything about Parvus?

    I know enough. It was a muddy type, trying to serve many masters at the same time, did not disdain anything, offered everyone his services, was, by cr. at least once caught stealing funds entrusted to him, and was suspected of several more similar cases.

    By 1917, it already became worse for knowledgeable people than a leper. Trotsky wrote an obituary to him during his lifetime, Lenin called a provocateur, and no one would have admitted such dislike in serious matters.

    Therefore, the fact that Parvus offered to use the revolutionaries for subversive work and asked different government agencies to allocate money for this, speaks of Parvus's arrogance and appetites; about the naivety of those who allocated this money - but there has never been any evidence that the revolutionaries were just as naive as before.

    Quote: sogdianec
    And about Zhivotovsky?

    Is that kind of a relative of Trotsky? And sho? His relatives were half the world lol

    Quote: sogdianec
    The conclusion of the infamous Brest peace is not evidence of the venality of the Leninist government.

    Never a testimony.
    1. The world was forced for both sides. The Bolsheviks did not have the strength to confront the Germans, the Germans did not have the time and resources to turn the war in the west in their favor.
    2. Before the conclusion of peace, the Germans conducted a serious attack on Petrograd and the Ukrainian direction.
    3. The Germans accepted, under their protection and supply, Skoropadsky and other military opponents of the Red Army.
    4. The Mutes did NOT have a similar relationship with the Reds.
    5. The Reds tried to resist the German offensive in every way.
    6. Immediately after the recognition of the defeat of the Germans in WWI, the Brest Peace was declared invalid by the Reds.
    0. In the future, I ask you not to turn to such mossy tales, already exposed at the time of their writing.

    Quote: sogdianec
    The "Leninist Guard" - Bronstein, Bukharin, Rykov, Radomyslsky (aka Zinoviev) and others were destroyed, since apart from the destruction of the state they were not capable of anything.

    You "forgot" something important again laughing
    Namely - you "did not notice" such a "trifle" as the completely successful creation of the USSR by these people.
    1. +3
      18 October 2016 15: 15
      Quote: murriou
      5. The Reds tried to resist the German offensive in every way.
      6. Immediately after the recognition of the defeat of the Germans in WWI, the Brest Peace was declared red invalid

      What were the results of the Brest Peace?
      The elimination of Russia as a military adversary and the active robbery of its resources allowed Germany to hold out for another whole year - until November 1918, when the allies (already without Russia) finished it off and forced it to sign the Versailles Peace Treaty. In Russia at that time a bloody Civil War was burning ... In pursuance of the conditions of the Brest Treaty, the Bolsheviks transported 92 tons of gold to Germany.
      A territory of 780 thousand square meters was torn away from Soviet Russia. km with a population of 56 million people (a third of the population of the Russian Empire) and on which they were (before the revolution): 27% of the cultivated agricultural land, 26% of the entire railway network, 33% of the textile industry, 73% of iron and steel were smelted, 89% of coal and mined 90% of sugar was produced; 918 textile factories, 574 breweries, 133 tobacco factories, 1685 distilleries, 244 chemical plants, 615 pulp mills, 1073 machine-building plants were located and 40% of industrial workers were located. The total losses in the Civil War alone from deaths amounted to about 10 million people, millions left Russia, fleeing the Bolshevik lawlessness. In 1921, there were several million street children in Russia. Industrial production fell to 20% from the level of 1913. The irretrievable losses of Russia in the First World War amounted to about 1,6 million people.
  17. +3
    18 October 2016 16: 21
    Quote: Bayonet
    Quote: murriou
    5. The Reds tried to resist the German offensive in every way.
    6. Immediately after the recognition of the defeat of the Germans in WWI, the Brest Peace was declared red invalid

    What were the results of the Brest Peace?

    As you can see, the previous 5 points of my answer were "not noticed" by Mr. Crystal Baker - for those who do not like to admit the truth is always characteristic * marvelous selectivity of vision * laughing
    And it was only on point 6 that he decided that he had found something to complain about.

    Quote: Bayonet
    allowed Germany to hold out for another whole year - until November 1918.

    With arithmetic and other basic knowledge, the bakers also have eternal problems, if their mythology is threatened lol
    For the rest of humanity since March 3, 1918 11 months passed before November 8 of the same year, not a year laughing

    Quote: Bayonet
    The territory was torn away from Soviet Russia

    Which then the Soviets returned if someone is not in the know lol

    Quote: Bayonet
    The irretrievable losses of Russia in the First World War amounted to about 1,6 million people.

    Even much more, but why did the bakers blame the Bolsheviks for these losses, who stopped this war - and not tsarism. who began and led it in a very unsuccessful manner?

    And most importantly: how do the bakers from the stated facts manage to make an equally illogical conclusion that the Bolsheviks served the Germans?
    I remind the unfamiliar crystal bakers again that
    7.1. Germans were open opponents of the Bolsheviks, including up to direct military confrontation ;.
    7.2. Soviet Russia offered the Germans armed resistance to the best of their ability;
    7.3. in the same Brest world, Soviet Russia acted as the subject of a treaty with the same Germans - which could not have been the case in the case that you have proposed.
    7.4. Soviet Russia did not act in WWI as an ally or vassal of Germany.
    7.5. After the defeat of Germany in WWI, Soviet Russia declared the Brest Treaty invalid.

    All this makes the crisp myths ridiculous.
    1. +2
      19 October 2016 01: 25
      yeah, Soviet Russia made on including the money of the German General Staff, matzo stitch ...
  18. +3
    18 October 2016 18: 56
    Quote: Bayonet
    Supporters of the White Movement themselves called themselves volunteers, or the Russian army.

    The Vlasovites also called themselves the Russian army. Even the "Russian liberation", ROA.
    But it does not have the right to be called the Russian army, fighting against the Russian people.
    1. +1
      19 October 2016 01: 28
      if the Russians, then maybe - well, after the red terror, the men failed to make out the peasants against the background of the residual Trotskyist poddies with their entourage that the authorities changed abruptly in their direction in 1937, it happens
  19. +2
    22 October 2016 18: 06
    I didn't read the article. Not interesting, because the Russian Civil War ended in 1922. And in the 23rd, therefore, there was some other war, is this in the author's opinion? This means that all other "reflections" are worthless.
    Those who do not know that there is such an auxiliary historical discipline "chronology", in a strange way, become historians today. And this is not correct.
    In short, come on, bye!
    1. +4
      22 October 2016 21: 03
      The site has changed not only design. The targeted focus of articles and comments is very clearly visible. White movement is only a capital letter. Reds are just so red. Which is lucky. Type of luck. The entire Soviet period is a continuous mess. In a word, liberalism in a pseudo-patriotic wrapper. An article like excerpts from Slon.ru. It smells bad. Venediktovy and Solzhenitsyn.
      1. +3
        23 October 2016 00: 38
        True, all one to one.

        And the minuses were removed here, so that site visitors could not simply and clearly express their attitude to the White Guard-crystal bakery lies.

        Our government recalls that it is necessary to consult with the people, only as an excuse not to do something.

        For example, all proposals to return the proud name of Stalingrad, or to somehow positively mention the Soviet era, are wrapped up under this pretext: they say, you don't need to rush to a decision, you need to consult with the people ... And they DO NOT consult, but hide anything " red "offer on the shelter. feel

        But to ditch the state billions at the memorial fight-drunk, put up a monument or a plaque to hang up another one for Nikolasha, Mannerheim, Denikin, Wrangel, Kolchak and other similar scum, or in any other way spit in the Soviet past - for this they do not need to consult with the people.

        Their people are always “wrong”, too “soviet”, they cannot accept that social inequality and the boundless arbitrariness of little people who have crawled out of rags to riches are wonderful, and social justice, full education and free health care are terrible.
  20. 0
    2 November 2016 05: 51
    There is one more argument.
    If the current media lie about the Soviet years 1965-1991 (I lived then, so I can compare), why should they tell the truth about the revolution?