Project submarine 705

More than 15 years have passed since the last of the 705 project boats was excluded from the Russian Navy, and there are still disputes in the circles of sailors and shipbuilders. What really was the 705 project - a breakthrough into the future, ahead of its time, or an expensive technical adventure?

The outer contours of the boat were worked out at TsAGI, tested on numerous models in the basins of the Leningrad Central Research Institute. Krylov. And, besides technical perfection and numerous innovations that are important for a warship, the submarine was also extraordinarily beautiful.

Project submarine 705

By 1990, all (except one) nuclear submarines of the 705th project had been decommissioned fleet, having served substantially less than the period for which they were designed. The latter, K-123, ended its service in 1997.

Racing boat
Photo: The submarines of the 705 project were dynamic and extremely maneuverable due to their contours and power-to-power ratio. The boat was able to accelerate to full speed in a minute, and it made full-turn circulation at full speed in 42 seconds. She could spend hours “hanging on the tail” of the submarine of the conditional enemy (there was a real case when the boat pursued the NATO submarine in the North Atlantic for 20 hours). Moreover, the boat could even get away from the torpedo fired in its direction!

In the 1959 year, when the Leningrad nuclear submarine Leninsky Komsomol, designed by the Leningrad SKB-143 (now Malachit) project, was launched into the sea, the leading specialist of the same SKB A. B. Petrov proposed the creation of a “Small-speed submarine fighter”. The idea was very relevant: such boats were needed to hunt submarines - carriers of ballistic missiles with nuclear warheads, which then began to be actively built on the stocks of a potential enemy. 23 June 1960, the Central Committee and the Council of Ministers approved the project, which was assigned the number 705 ("Lira"). In NATO, this boat became known as the “Alpha” (Alfa). Academicians A.P. Aleksandrov, V.A. Trapeznikov, A.G.Iosifyan became the scientific leaders of the project, and Mikhail Georgievich Rusanov became the chief designer of the ship. He was a talented man with a very difficult fate: seven years in a gulag, and after his release - a ban on entering Leningrad. An experienced shipbuilding engineer worked at the button maker in Malaya Vishera, and only in 1956 could he return to Leningrad, in SKB-143. He started with the deputy chief designer of the nuclear submarine of the 645 project (this experience turned out to be very useful for Rusanov).

Battle with titan

The purpose of the new submarine determined the basic requirements - high speed and maneuverability, perfect sonar, powerful weapons. To ensure the first two requirements, the boat had to have extremely small dimensions and weight, the highest hydrodynamic characteristics of the hull and a powerful power plant, fitting in limited dimensions. It was impossible to do this without non-standard solutions. As the main material for the ship hull, as well as many of its mechanisms, pipelines and fittings, titanium was chosen - the metal is almost twice as light and stronger than steel at the same time, and it is also absolutely corrosion-resistant and low-magnetic. However, it is quite capricious: it is welded only in an inert gas — argon — it is difficult to cut it, it has a high coefficient of friction. In addition, titanium could not be used in direct contact with parts from other metals (steel, aluminum, brass, bronze): in sea water it forms an electrochemical pair with them, which causes corrosion-damaging parts from other metals. It was necessary to develop special grades of high-alloy steel and bronze, and the specialists of the Central Research Institute of Metallurgy and Welding (Prometheus) and the Central Research Institute of Shipbuilding Technology managed to overcome these titanium tricks. As a result, a small ship hull was created underwater displacement 3000 t (although the customer - the Navy - insisted on limiting the 2000 t).

I must say that Soviet shipbuilding has already had experience in creating submarines made of titanium. In 1965, in Severodvinsk, a single submarine of the 661 submarine with a titanium hull was built. This boat, known as the “Golden Fish” (a hint of its fantastic value), remains to this day the record for speed under water - on the sea trials it showed the 44,7 node (about 83 km / h).

Solid innovations

Another radical innovation was the size of the crew. On other submarines (both Soviet and American), 80-100 people carry the service, and in the technical task for the 705 project, the number 16 was named, and only officers. However, during the design, the number of future crews grew and eventually reached 30 people, including five midshipmen technicians and one sailor, who was assigned the important role of coca, and part-time day-care worker (initially it was assumed that the ship doctor will perform the ship's doctor). To combine such a small number of crew with a huge number weapons and mechanisms, the boat had to be very seriously automated. Later, the sailors even called the boats of the 705 project "automatic".

For the first time in the country (and probably in the world) global automation covered everything: ship traffic control, weapons use, main power plant, all general ship systems (diving, surfacing, trimming, retractable devices, ventilation, etc.). One of the key and very controversial issues in the development of automation systems (a whole number of research institutes and design bureaus, including the Central Research Institute Aurora, Granit, Agat) was involved in the selection of the current frequency for the ship's electrical network. Considered options 50 and 400 Hz, each had its own advantages and disadvantages. The final decision in favor of 400 Hz was made at a three-day meeting of the heads of several organizations involved in the topic with the participation of three academicians. The transition to an increased frequency caused a lot of production problems, but it made it possible to significantly reduce the size of electrical equipment and appliances.

On the submarine of the 705 project, pneumatic-hydraulic torpedo tubes were installed for the first time, ensuring firing in the entire depth range of the dive. Six torpedo tubes and 18 torpedoes, taking into account the speed and maneuverability of the boat, made it a serious opponent for NATO submarines.

Atomic heart

Yet the main innovation that determined the fate of the entire project was the choice of the main power plant of the ship. It has become a compact atomic fast-neutron reactor (BN) with a liquid metal coolant (LMT). This made it possible to save about 300 t displacement due to the higher steam temperature and, consequently, better turbine efficiency.

The American submarine Seawolf (1957) became the first submarine in the world with a reactor of this type. The design was not very successful, during the sea trials, the primary circuit was depressurized with sodium ejection. Therefore, in 1958, the reactors were replaced with water-cooled reactors, and the military in the United States no longer contacted the reactors at ZhMT. In the USSR, they preferred to use lead-bismuth melt, which is much less chemically aggressive than sodium, as a heat carrier. But the K-1963 nuclear submarine, built in 27, was also unlucky: in May 1968, during the hike, the first circuit of one of the two reactors broke. The crew received huge doses of radiation, nine people died, and the boat was dubbed "Nagasaki" (the nickname "Hiroshima" was already occupied by K-19 in 1961 year). The submarine was so radioactive that it could not be repaired, and as a result, in September 1982, it was flooded off the northeast coast of Novaya Zemlya. To her "titles" naval wits added "forever underwater." But even after the tragedy of K-27 in the USSR, it was decided not to abandon the tempting idea of ​​using reactors from ZhMT to nuclear submarines; engineers and scientists under the guidance of academician Leipunsky continued to work on improving them.

The development of the main power plant for the 705 project took two organizations. Podolsk OKB "Gidropress" created a block two-unit installation BM-40 / A with two circulation pumps. Gorky OKBM issued an OK-550 installation, also a block one, but with a branched first circuit and three circulation pumps. In the future, both installations were used on the submarine of the 705 project: OK-550 was installed on boats under construction in Leningrad (four ships), and on three boats built in Severodvinsk according to the version of the 705K project, the BM-40 / А was installed. Both installations provided power on the turbine shaft up to 40 ?? 000 hp, which allowed the speed provided by the technical task to be developed in 40 nodes.

Full automatic
In order to control the submarine by the forces of a very limited crew of the time in 30 people, numerous automation systems were developed to keep all the mechanisms of the ship under control. Later, the sailors even gave these boats the nickname "automatic".

The longest boat

A total of seven submarines of the 705 project were built, they became the world's first production boats equipped with ZhMT reactors. The first boat, the K-64, laid out in June of the 1968 of the year in the same old slipway, where the famous cruiser Aurora was built in 70 years before, in December 1971 was transferred to the Navy. The main problems of trial operation were associated with the reactor, which was fundamentally different from the well-known water-to-water ones. The fact is that the lead-bismuth alloy crystallizes at + 145 ° С, and in the operation of a reactor with such iron and steel materials, in no case should the temperature in the primary circuit be reduced to this value. It was as a result of non-observance of this condition in the pipelines of one, and then the second loop of the primary circuit began to appear jams from the frozen melt, which could not be returned to the liquid state. There was a "blockage" of the steam generating plant, accompanied by depressurization of the primary circuit and radioactive contamination of the boat, which at that time was moored at its base. It soon became clear that the reactor was irrevocably ruined, and the boat could no longer go to sea. As a result, in August 1974 was withdrawn from the fleet and, after long debates, was cut into two parts, each of which was decided to be used for crew training and development of new technologies. The bow of the boat was towed to Leningrad, and the stern with the reactor compartment remained in Severodvinsk at the Zvezdochka ship repair plant. In the same place, a black cross of a cut off K-64 stabilizer with horizontal and vertical rudders remained a mournful monument. Among the sailors and shipbuilders for a long time went a joke, a mystery about "the longest boat in the world."

Real life

The construction of the series, which was already actively conducted in Leningrad and Severodvinsk, was suspended, but resumed a couple of years later, and from 1977 to 1981, six submarines of the 705 project were transferred to the fleet. These ships quite intensively and successfully served in the Northern Fleet, causing serious concern among the NATO countries. Taking into account the sad experience of K-64, on all serial submarines of this project an “electric boiler” was additionally installed, the task of which was to maintain the required temperature in the primary circuit of the reactor when it was brought to minimum capacity when the submarine was stationed at the base. To operate the boiler required to supply electricity from the shore. There were disruptions to this, and since the crews of the boats were desperately afraid to destroy the reactor, it was not maintained at the minimum power level, which accelerated the production of nuclear fuel. In addition, the displeasure of the naval base authorities caused the need to organize special laboratories for periodic inspections, adjustments and repair of automation, which was packed with boats of this type. So a lot of cares have been added to the coastal services of the Navy. Increasingly, there was talk on the topic that new ships, despite the unique fighting qualities, are ahead of their time and are too difficult to maintain. The seventh serial boat did not finish building, and cut right on the stocks. By the 1990, all (except one) of the submarines of the 705-th project were withdrawn from the fleet, having served substantially less than the period for which they were designed.

Last Alpha

K-123, which became an exception, lingered in the ranks until 1997, due to excessively prolonged repairs after a serious accident in 1982. When the boat was submerged in the Barents Sea, the “Fault Reactor” signal suddenly came on at the control panel in the central submarine of the submarine. Lieutenant Loginov went to reconnaissance into the uninhabited reactor compartment, who after a minute reported that he was watching the silver metal spreading along the deck: it was a highly active liquid metal fuel cell escaping from the first loop of the reactor. At the same time, the signal “Contamination of the reactor compartment” turned on. To leave the compartment! ”, And, as one crew member who survived the accident recalled later,“ they thought about Loginov in the past tense ”. But Loginov survived. After entering the gateway, through which the reactor compartment communicates with the rest of the boat, he left all his clothes there and went through a thorough bath. The reactor was shut down, the submarine surfaced, blowing its ballast tanks. How did you install it later, did the order of 2 flow from the first circuit? t zhmt. The boat was so polluted that the cruiser who had come to the rescue did not dare approach her to pass the towing cable. As a result, the cable was still brought with the help of a deck helicopter from the same cruiser. Repair of the K-123, during which the reactor compartment was completely replaced, ended in 1992, the submarine returned to service and safely served until the 1997 of the year. With her write-off infamously ended story 705 project.

Reserve parachute

Of the six submarines, there were only two inhabited nuclear submarines, one of which housed a pop-up rescue chamber created for the first time in the world, designed to rescue the entire crew (30 people) even from the maximum depth of the dive (400 m).

Ahead of time

The nuclear submarines of the 705 project boasted fantastic speed and maneuvering characteristics and many innovations: a titanium hull, a fast neutron reactor with liquid metal coolant and fully automated control of all ship systems.

Underwater metal
The hull of the boat was made of titanium, so the specialists of the Central Research Institute of Metals and Welding (Prometheus) and the Central Research Institute of Shipbuilding Technology had to develop special technologies for welding and joining titanium parts, and for metallurgists new corrosion-resistant alloys.

Liquid metal

Atomic ships are essentially steamboats, since their propellers are driven by steam turbines. But steam is not generated in conventional boilers with furnaces, but in atomic reactors. Heat of radioactive decay is transferred from nuclear fuel in the primary coolant circuit to the coolant, usually pressurized water (to raise the temperature to 200 ° C or more), which also serves as a neutron moderator. And the coolant already transfers heat to the water of the secondary circuit, evaporating it. But water under pressure has its drawbacks. High pressure means that the pipe walls of the cooling system of the primary circuit of the reactor must be thick and durable, and when the primary circuit is depressurized, radioactive steam penetrates into the most hard-to-reach places. One alternative is the use of fast neutron reactors with a coolant of low-melting metals in their liquid phase — for example, sodium or a lead-bismuth alloy. Thermal conductivity and heat capacity are much higher than that of water, they can be heated to higher temperatures without high pressure in the primary circuit, which allows you to create very compact reactors.
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  1. +29
    11 September 2016 08: 04
    Any type of weapon has both pros and cons. Epee, pistol or submarine. Any sample of weapons has its own cost, which depends on what this sample is made of and what it is stuffed with. Any weapon model has a "cost-effectiveness" criterion, looking at which, even the back of the head, those in power draw conclusions whether this model is worth it to be pulled by the budget, and it could fulfill its role in the country's defense capability. These are the axioms of our real life. And how many copies have already been broken and snot smeared on some samples of weapons, both ours and ours.
    The military wanted to get a super toy - they got it. With all the pluses in performance characteristics and minuses in service and price. Was "Lear" worth it to be adopted? - Probably worth it, if it helped to achieve certain goals for which it was created. Personally, I think the 705s are an excellent example of the development of science and industry in the country, which were ahead of their time, although the military with their troubles were not ready to use what they were given. There are still many other factors, but this is too much to write. After all, super-duper and powerful does not mean simple and cheap, because a ship must be balanced in many respects and a skew in one direction creates a loss in something else ..
    So how to evaluate the 705s depends on everyone’s vision, depending on what you want to see. Someone will see perfection, and someone will see an expensive and useless thing. The same applies to any other ship, aircraft, tank with their advantages and disadvantages. smile
    1. avt
      11 September 2016 10: 29
      Quote: Rurikovich
      ... Was "Lear" worth it to be adopted? - Probably worth it, if it helped to achieve certain goals for which it was created.

      If it hadn't been, then the US would not have forced them to write off. They very closely followed the destruction of the submarine fleet. Even for Ivan Washington, "the hatches of the missile silos had to be opened in the slop for cutting. And when the factory workers covered them with some kind of plywood from the weather, so that water would not flood, the call instantly -" What did you think of there ?? " ,, Remove now! "
      1. +5
        11 September 2016 11: 41
        If it weren’t, the US wouldn’t force them to write off.

        In the topic about the MAPL Husky, I wrote yesterday that, in my opinion, an alternative to the failed Lada project could be the 705 steel Lira project, revised and modernized taking into account new technologies and developments. Lyra is unique both for its "heart" and for its speed, maneuverability and diving depth. I think it was not worth reinventing the wheel, but to carry out a number of work on the design of the new Lyra in a steel version and put it into production, and calmly refine Kalina, and not dance with a tambourine around Lada.
        In addition, it is not at all clear why the project 865 Piranha was turned off ... After all, in order to reduce and reduce the cost of construction, it is enough to build them in a steel version.
        Best regards hi
        1. avt
          11 September 2016 12: 48
          Quote: NEXUS
          Lada can serve as the 705th project of Lira in steel construction, revised and modernized taking into account new technologies and developments.

          recourse I don’t presume to judge. The chip of the 705th is still a reactor and automation and ... a narrow specialization adopted on the submarine of the USSR. Now, with the project 885, Malachite has taken a course towards universalization and it seems like it turned out, but expensive. fundamentally new in the engine.
          Quote: NEXUS
          In addition, it is not at all clear why the project 865 Piranha was turned off ...

          Well, oh-oh-oh-very muddy history of humpback times. Somehow, a series of 15 pieces seems to have been stopped .... after publication in the media, almost in Ogonyok, about what a terrible boat it is with unbearable conditions for the crew, and has not yet reached the specified performance characteristics. hi
          1. +13
            11 September 2016 13: 01
            recourse I do not presume to judge. The chip of the 705th is still a reactor and automation, and ... a narrow specialization adopted on the Soviet submarine

            We need inexpensive and effective hunters with a displacement of 1500-2500 tons as air, and in large quantities. Now, in fact, we can’t compete with that armory of the US nuclear submarines, but once upon a time, in terms of the number of submarines and nuclear submarines the USSR was ahead of the rest and the Union’s submarine fleet was indeed a real force that everyone reckoned with.
            But today, with inexpensive hunters, in fact, we have a mess. Lada has failed, Kalina is only in development, and Varshavyanka, although they rivet like pies for themselves and for sale, still it will not work to upgrade to blue.
            Well oooh very muddy story of hunchbacked times.

            Piranha is a very successful project. For sabotage, intelligence is the most. Only the tagged muskrat was not going to fight, handing over the country along the Altyn on a market day. So that Judas all his deeds rose up his throat. Ugh ..
        2. +3
          11 September 2016 13: 46
          Quote: NEXUS
          I think it was not worth reinventing the wheel, but to carry out a series of works on the design of the new Lyra in the steel version and put it into series, and calmly modify Kalina, and not dance with a tambourine around Lada.

          Everything rests on money and desire. Alas, now it’s not the USSR, the money compared to the Union isn’t so good, and don’t forget about the fifth column, whose members are actively pursuing a more destructive line than a creative one. Nobody has canceled Serdyukovism either. But with a firm hand, it is unlikely that it will be possible to put things in order with the GDP, because these things in a country such as democracy need to be reacted to different stench.
          Because of the resumption of the 705s, even with the deteriorated characteristics of the steel body, one can only dream of. And you are right, a solid series of Varshavyanka could correct the situation (all the same, for defense, even from their nuclear submarines, it should be enough for their secrecy). BUT .. If yes, if only ... request
        3. +1
          26 October 2016 21: 54
          One of the main components of the unique characteristics of the project 705 submarines was precisely the titanium, and not steel, hull!
    2. +3
      11 September 2016 13: 09
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Any weapon model has a "cost-effectiveness" criterion, looking at which, even the back of the head, those in power draw conclusions whether this model is worth pulling for it and the budget, and it could fulfill the role assigned to it in the country's defense capability.

      IMHO, a breakthrough boat, not only for its time, but remains so until now. Like a fighter ... request Seven of these "fighters" cannot cover all our huge sea and ocean borders, for all their uniqueness, and a large series was unbearable even for the USSR, not to mention modern Russia. Is the boat interesting? Certainly. Do we need a similar one now? Stretch your legs over your clothes, one superboat will not help, and there is neither strength nor funds for a large batch.
      1. jjj
        12 September 2016 11: 01
        Friends, life has shown that 671, and then 971, turned out to be more efficient, reliable, cheaper and safer
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. jjj
            13 September 2016 19: 30
            Many people are inclined to this idea, because 885 at this stage was not quite what they expected. It is for other purposes. And it is not in vain that boats built at 636 Ave.
      2. 0
        13 September 2016 22: 06
        Quote: Vladimirets
        Stretch your legs on clothes, one super-boat will not help, and for a large series there is neither the strength nor the means.

        life has already shown that future reactors will be mostly liquid metal, on BN. Instead of suffering so much with anaerobic plants, MHD generators would work out, together with BN reactors it would be a small and reliable boat
  2. +4
    11 September 2016 08: 24
    n-yes, as the sad experience shows, the good old diesel engine with a generator is not a hindrance for a super-sophisticated ship
    1. +4
      11 September 2016 10: 22
      I will say more. All nuclear boats are necessarily equipped with a reserve diesel generator set.
    2. +12
      11 September 2016 11: 54
      To guarantee the maintenance of the liquid metal fuel temperature in the base, it was enough to have a diesel generator on the shore. In my opinion, the project was initially "ruined" by the unpreparedness of the "coast" for normal maintenance of such equipment. Those who served on the PLPL know how the ship's crew "fought" with the so-called "coastal base". Where I served, this very base was not called anything other than "anti-submarine".
      1. 0
        11 September 2016 12: 34
        Quote: sub307
        To guarantee the maintenance of the liquid metal fuel temperature in the base, it was enough to have a diesel generator on the shore. In my opinion, the project was initially "ruined" by the unpreparedness of the "coast" for normal maintenance of such equipment. Those who served on the PLPL know how the ship's crew "fought" with the so-called "coastal base". Where I served, this very base was not called anything other than "anti-submarine".

        and DG on the shore, and its own, if it was already - on tov. Their reaction time is seconds
  3. The comment was deleted.
    1. +1
      11 September 2016 10: 30
      Maybe. But hi-tech, including the military, requires resp. frames. Training specialists for such a boat requires money and time. Therefore, they are not in a hurry to resume the program - but is it necessary?
    2. 0
      11 September 2016 16: 55
      Yes, the main thing is not to forget the technological developments, so that later, VIDOROGA does not have to be created again!
      1. 0
        11 September 2016 20: 00
        Quote: ty60
        Yes, the main thing is not to forget the technological developments, so that later, VIDOROGA does not have to be created again!

        Technology development is sometimes more useful to forget the existing developments that would calmly go the other way.
        His own, corresponding to a particular task, level of production, etc. Those. match the time.
    3. +1
      13 September 2016 22: 14
      Quote from rudolf
      Perhaps we will someday return to this concept, but not soon and in an evolutionary way.

      so this time has already come, as far as the press can judge, the government is already preparing programs for the large-scale deployment of BN reactors, in a couple of years the construction of the BN-1200 will begin and everything can be assumed that the time will come.
      So now we need to think about the fact that MHD generators are best combined with this type of reactor, which can raise the efficiency of the reactor to very high levels. It’s better to bet on this type of boat than on diesel, although the VI can be very close
      Indeed, to deploy a new generation of diesel engines, one still has to develop breakthrough technologies
    4. 0
      14 September 2016 19: 10
      Well, it’s you who turned down about the roads, although if you are a Muscovite, then you live in another country. Roads in Russia have become worse and less.
  4. +2
    11 September 2016 10: 19
    Before you build a boat (or hundreds of boats), you need to consider the moment of basing. Especially in such a project where it is impossible to shut down the reactor. And we had (and still have) a complete mess with this.
  5. +5
    11 September 2016 10: 20
    From a technical point of view, the 705K project is an unconditional masterpiece, from a practical point of view is a waste of money.
    1. A titanium case is much more expensive than a low-magnetic steel case. Detecting a submarine from the air with the help of DMA in the vast expanses of the ocean is almost impossible, because the boat should be practically under the plane. Maintenance and repair of the titanium case is extremely difficult due to the properties of this metal.
    2. The small displacement does not allow the deployment of a sufficiently powerful weapon, and most importantly, a powerful HAK antenna.
    3. The LMT reactor has a huge plus in the form of a quick set of power, but its drawbacks are obvious - the complexity of manufacturing the circuit due to the high chemical activity of sodium, the danger of contact of sodium with water in case of depressurization, the risk of a complete failure of the reactor when the coolant solidifies, complexity recycling.
    4. High speed is an absolute plus, but the lack of serious weapons makes the boat easy prey for anti-submarine aircraft and enemy ships, because at a speed of more than 40 knots you can forget about stealth.
    5. A small crew increases the load on each of its members, complicates the struggle for the survivability of the boat in the event of an accident, requires a much higher level of training.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. +5
        11 September 2016 12: 25
        Lyra is undoubtedly a controversial project, but if it is soundly reworked, taking into account operating experience and using new technologies, the ship will turn out a la "I have a Virginia for dinner".

        Here I am about the same. For me, Lyra ahead of her time by 40 years in some matters, and in general by 20 years. And such a hunter is very relevant today. I don’t understand our designers ... why should I reinvent the wheel when there is a finished project that can be put into series in the steel version during processing, taking into account modern realities and technologies? After all, this hunter was tested and proved his worth and capabilities ...
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. +1
            11 September 2016 13: 37
            Why do we need "Lear"? Submarines Yasen-M are under construction now. The displacement of the latest submarines makes it possible to place on board the most powerful GAK and the latest avionics, a large arsenal of missiles and torpedoes, and to provide good conditions for the crew. The submarine is capable of solving a wide range of tasks: hitting ground targets, destroying enemy NKs and submarines, planting mines, and planting saboteurs. Today no one will build highly specialized submarines - it is too expensive. The United States has only four types of nuclear submarines in service, France and Britain have three, and we have eight, excluding special ones. In the future, we must come to the following configuration of the submarine fleet:
            SSBN - Borey (A);
            MAPL - Ash (M), Husky;
            NPL - Varshavyanka, Lada, Kalina.
            Only three types of submarines and three submarines. This will greatly simplify the repair, modernization of boats, as well as facilitate the training of crews.
            1. +1
              11 September 2016 14: 22
              Why do we need "Lear"? Submarines Yasen-M are under construction now.

              You look at the timelines for the construction of Ash-trees and their cost. In a large series they can not be built physically and financially, no matter how much we would like to. The Husky question will be open for a long time and this is also the reality of today.
              I already wrote about Lada ... at the same time, the failed project is also unfinished. Kalina is only at the design stage and when we see it in hardware is not clear. Well, Varshavyanka submarines are wonderful, but still, the modernization resource is not rubber. We need a budget efficient and fast hunter in construction, who could at least partially bridge the gap with the adversary. That is why there is talk here about the processing of project 705 and the construction of these hunters in the steel version quickly and, what is important, relatively inexpensive.
              Although Wishlist so far remain only Wishlist and conversations on the forums.
              1. +1
                11 September 2016 15: 31
                The Husky submarine will become a cheaper alternative to the Yasen submarine, but no less effective. The reduction in price will occur due to a high degree of unification of components and assemblies with other projects and a slight decrease in displacement. Replacing some units with those already debugged in production often allows you to reduce cost without degrading performance. New technologies in construction and design make it possible to abandon resource-intensive technological operations. The Americans managed to significantly reduce the cost of the latest series of Virginia submarines by improving construction technology while increasing combat capabilities. It should not be forgotten that Ash began to be designed back in the late 80s, when there were no CAD systems.
              2. 0
                13 September 2016 21: 50
                Quote: NEXUS
                That is why there is talk here about the processing of the 705 project and the construction of these hunters in the steel version quickly and what is important is relatively inexpensive.
                Although Wishlist so far remain only Wishlist and conversations on the forums.

                Due to the fact that the Lyras were long enough and they were noisy, they "lost" one thing.
                This is reactor cooling.
                Lyra, by virtue of her constructive (dimensions and GEM), has a very high-performance CO. With a very high temperature discharge.

                In those years there was no such equipment as it is now, and it was not needed.
                Now, tenths of a degree are found tens of kilometers into the distance and 400 meters deep.

                And now nuclear submarines are mainly (on patrol) detected either by the noise around the hull, or by a magnetic anomaly, or by the temperature trace.
                And here is the high-temperature Lyra - at a glance.
            2. The comment was deleted.
              1. +1
                11 September 2016 16: 56
                By displacement "Ash" is slightly more than 971 projects. In any case, a multipurpose nuclear submarine with a powerful SAC, good habitability and an impressive arsenal of weapons cannot be less than 8-9 thousand tons. Problems with construction arose due to the long break in construction and the high degree of novelty of the project. "Ash-M" should receive a new nuclear power plant KTP-6 instead of OK-650V and full electric propulsion (?). In a submarine the size of a 705 project, there is no way to put a powerful SAC with an arched antenna and it is impossible to place heavy supersonic anti-ship missiles "Onyx" due to the limitation in the diameter of missiles for TA 533 mm.
                1. The comment was deleted.
          2. 0
            11 September 2016 13: 49
            When problems arise on the level of what you mean, then on the one hand you can continue to "bang your forehead against the concrete wall." but you can look for radically new solutions, simpler and more effective. A whole range of unsolvable problems are nevertheless solved at a fundamental level. This is the level of those physical processes that are considered on key devices - and propulsion units and an identical process in turbines.
            Time passes and I am more and more convinced of the correctness of my arguments and the effectiveness of the development and that no one came close to this level of problem solving. Boats sailed on propellers with all the problems that they drag along and will sail until they not only invent, but most importantly do not understand the essence of the physical process organized on an elementary screw. Therefore, they can only advise engineers and scientists not only to expand the space of knowledge, but it is necessary to deepen them and concentrate on the level of optimal initial interactions. The last phrase means not looking for a panacea and the only right solution, but looking for a methodology for understanding and organizing dynamic processes and creating devices for this action under them. Therefore, I will repeat again that the key physical process is not used on the screws and all identical devices. As soon as everyone understands this, the progress will be incredible in all areas of science and technology. This is the foundation.
          3. +4
            11 September 2016 17: 46
            Quote from rudolf
            we rested our foreheads on all new projects, without exception.

            Greetings, Rudolph!
            And it's true ... Applied science and technology is not able to give a product at the level of military requirements. Industry does not pull! This is a fact - and there is no getting around it. This is confirmed by numerous facts from communication with the officers of the fleet.
            But this is not what I got into the conversation. Today the situation is such that it is necessary to step over the 4-e generation (as it was with the landline telephone service in our country) in order to confront amers. By and large, Ash - yesterday. Ahead are submarines with uninhabited robots ahead of course. Capsules with PO at predetermined points of the oceans, which, according to the signal, start the CRBD on pre-wired targets. There is only one tendency: to secure the carrier as much as possible, to maintain its combat stability by evading direct confrontation with enemy PLS / PLA. This is the underwater war of the future, which needs to be prepared if you plan to win it.
            According to Lear.
            Among other things, noise is its main vice. Where there are GTZA and ESPNs you cannot get rid of constructive noise! Therefore, now GEMs are water-cooled reactors with natural circulation of VT, and the transition to electric motion (full or partial). The rest of the bells and whistles, such as generators converting their own noise into the natural background of the sea, absorbing coatings, cascades of shock absorption on cable drives, optic masts and other crap will be installed sooner or later: the idea has already found its embodiment in metal.
            Now you need to jump over your head, as it was with "Lira". But our industry is not yet able (yet!) To provide what will ensure this technological breakthrough. After all, the idea of ​​VNEU with direct transformation of chemical processes into electricity generation is revolutionary ... However, "a stone flower does not come out!" A similar plug and LIAB!
            Therefore, it would be fairer to make claims not to shipbuilders (they build for a long time!), But to electronics engineers, instrument-makers, metallurgists and other "big-ass" men. And then - to machine tool builders, howling machining centers ... (And where is all this? Or: when will it really be !?).
            And to argue about yesterday and prepare for past wars is the lot of historians, and not "looking ahead" from whom the demand will be when the thunder breaks out ...
            PS Rudolph, I have long wanted to ask: what are you (judging by the flag) doing in Iceland? laughing
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              1. +2
                11 September 2016 18: 52
                Quote from rudolf
                If you believe the flags, where I just was not!
                Hi friend! drinks
                There it is! Well, judging by the next flag, you are already in Belarus! But!!!
                It’s not just the CIA, Mi-6, Mossad, but even the all-powerful KGBE who will not catch up with such a server! bully
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                  1. +3
                    11 September 2016 23: 38
                    Quote from rudolf
                    Another time somehow. Cognac with me, a snack with you!

                    NOTED !!! good drinks
  6. +4
    11 September 2016 13: 29
    Only the Shark can be compared with the "goldfish" - it was not for nothing that the "exclusive nation" was so striving for their utilization. Dear Mikhail Sergeevich, you are a real communist and patriot of your homeland (the word Motherland is always written with a capital letter, except for the combination with the words Gorbachev and Mikhail Sergeyevich).
    1. +2
      12 September 2016 15: 12
      Quote: KRIG55
      Only the Shark can be compared with the "goldfish" - it was not for nothing that the "exclusive nation" was so striving for their utilization.

      "Sharks" is the result of a big mistake, when the "shipbuilders" followed the lead of the "armed forces". As a result, the largest submarine in the world was created, carrying only 20 SLBMs with performance characteristics, inferior to the SLBMs of a potential enemy.
      Moreover, the "armed men" first managed to delay the adoption of SLBMs into service (the head "shark" formally went for a year without missiles), and then twice failed to meet the TZ. For the third time, there was no money, no chain of allies - the USSR collapsed.
      So the "sharks" were living out their days with "intermediate" SLBMs, waiting until they go out all the time. Alas, the whole P-39 family (up to the "barque") was tied to Pavlograd, which quickly died in the square. And there was no money and effort to fine-tune the "bark".
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        1. +2
          12 September 2016 18: 20
          Quote from rudolf
          Regarding Bark, it’s not about money or strength, but about ordinary court intrigues. All the main research and development projects on Bark have already been completed, the problems of "Ukrainian substitution" have been solved poorly at the very least, the machine has reached the stage of LTI and it only remained to bring it to its wits. And they would have brought it if Solomonov had not entered through the "back door". Later, Bulava sucked orders of magnitude more funds than was required to complete work on Bark.

          Forgive me, what else did Makeyevtsy expect, once again offering a rocket 16 meters long and 81 tons in weight? Even the USSR was unable to complete the program of "sharks" and bases for them.
          The Russian Federation needed new SSBNs with relatively light TT SLBMs, so as not to fence under them again "water carriers". And MIT coped with it.
          And the modernization of the "sharks" did not save the situation - there were few of them and they were already quite old.
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            2. +4
              13 September 2016 08: 24
              Rudolph, the first has a little less than three tons. With such a difference, it doesn't matter. I already wrote here who tried to ruin the 37th car. Urinson, Solomonov and Dvorkin were "on the cutting edge", but someone was also behind. And judging by who Dvorkin is now, and where Urinson is now, it becomes clear. And how one of the corps of the BDRM was driven for re-equipment for the carrier of "babies" and has not yet been commissioned, and the strategic unit was "killed". And if not for the then director of KRASMASH and the head of acceptance, there would be no RMU2 now. Maybe KRASMASH would not exist. In general, I am surprised how the latter disobeyed Moscow. He seemed so soft to me, but in fact a Man.
              And now Shoigu is coming to KRASMASH. And KRASMASH is led by a native of acceptance. By the way, Shoigu himself studied at the Krasnoyarsk Polytechnic.
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                1. +3
                  13 September 2016 10: 47
                  The R-39 originally had 2550 kg. If we now compare the Mace, then by the characteristics of the carrier it is close to the P-29. Comparable range, weight 33,3 tons, length 13 meters, diameter 1,8 meters, load 1100 kg. R-29R is a meter longer, 2,5 tons heavier, displays ~ 500 kg more ... Why was the city fenced when it was possible to raise the TTX by modernization? No, why did they make a fuss, of course ...
                  Rudolph, I'm sorry, I did not carefully look that you are comparing Bark with the Mace.
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  7. +5
    12 September 2016 10: 38
    I read both the article and all the comments ... The case when the contingent of the Military Review inspires respect. Thank you all, good luck to everyone.
  8. 0
    12 September 2016 20: 34
    The article is a review, however, is good!
    I would like to add an important fact for understanding the value of this project - the number of boats in the series should have been very large. It was for this project that the training center Sosnovy Bor was originally created.
  9. 0
    13 September 2016 12: 45
    I disagree, why "history ended ingloriously"?
    More like Nice !!! So many innovative technologies in both technology and combat use.
  10. +1
    13 September 2016 22: 30
    Quote: Karabogazgol
    I read both the article and all the comments ... The case when the contingent of the Military Review inspires respect. Thank you all, good luck to everyone.

    I also read with great pleasure the comments :-)
  11. 0
    15 September 2016 15: 22
    In the current situation in Russia, such weapons are an UNAUTHIBLE dream. And to cover up their backwardness and inability (impotence) they come up with excuses about the "uselessness", "high cost", "danger" of such products. We can say one thing for the orangutan everything that is more complicated than a stick and a stone - "too expensive and difficult" and in general "unnecessary and dangerous". By the statements of the "experts" one can judge the level of development of the country ...
  12. 0
    15 September 2016 23: 45
    It’s interesting, but really 150 kilometers per hour to enter under water wassat the same plane will be. even if it’s not possible to find combat use, it’s just as a toy for GDP laughing laughing
  13. 0
    9 October 2016 07: 20
    in my opinion the boat is excellent, the problem is not competence in maintenance and not ready for operation by the Navy, the tool is never to blame for the fact that it is used for other purposes! performance at altitude today, it was only necessary to competently produce and operate.
  14. 0
    15 May 2017 14: 43
    Only the tagged muskrat was not going to fight, handing over the country along the Altyn on a market day. So that Judas all his deeds rose up his throat. Ugh ..

    I would like for him there is a separate boiler prepared !!!
  15. +2
    11 July 2017 23: 57
    And become beautiful and kamenty to her - professional and without a bang-pottsreotizma.
    And thanks to the author and comrades "discussion"
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  17. +1
    22 November 2017 00: 15
    My friends, an interesting article, recalled the past, about 1987. Guba Zapadnaya Litsa, military unit 30868, which at that time included the “automatic machines” of 705 projects. From these steamboats officers came to us for a new formation. So they served together on the project 945A, almost the same 971, only titanium (Barracuda 2). We took this steamer from the Krasnoye Sormovo plant, in the factory lubrication, 11 exits for testing and, by the way, it will be said that it turned out very balanced, worked as a single organism. First “Condor” with an onboard 666, then “Catfish” and finally “Nizhny Novgorod”. You will find it on the internet.
    I want to say that the maintenance of the titanium case did not create problems, they simply did not exist. Rubber just flew off.
    The fifth building of this project (945) was cut right on the slipway - there is no money. Further development of titanium boats is not tracked, if it (development) of course was.

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