Falkland Conflict 1982 r or slightly alternative history

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Since the Falkland conflict, 1982 has passed more than thirty years. The guns fell silent a long time ago, but the Internet battles are still going on and will probably continue for a very, very long time. Moreover, discussions are by no means limited to the interpretation of events that occurred in real life. stories - no less interesting opportunities are of no less interest. Of course, history as a science does not tolerate the subjunctive mood, but why not arrange a little mind game, and not try to answer the questions - and what if ...:
1) Would the most modern air defense systems be on British ships?
2) Would the British at the Falklands have a battleship?
3) Would the British squadron receive a full-fledged catapult aircraft carrier instead of the Hermes and Invincible VTOL carriers?
4) In addition to VTOL aircraft, would British aircraft carriers have AWACS helicopters?

SAM


Falkland Conflict 1982 r or slightly alternative history

ZRK "Sea Wolf"


In the discussions of the Falkland conflict, the idea was repeatedly expressed that if the British had normal, modern anti-aircraft missile systems on board, the British air defense could be provided without any aircraft at all, and the British aircraft carriers would be completely unnecessary. Let's try to figure it out.

The most modern SAM for the British was the Sea Wolf, which entered the arsenal of the Royal fleet in 1979, i.e. just three years before the events described. This complex possessed truly impressive characteristics - capable of intercepting air targets flying at speeds up to 2M, it was fully automated, and according to passport data, the reaction time (i.e. from the moment the target was taken for escort to the moment the rocket was launched) was only 5 -6 seconds. The accuracy of the missiles was such that, according to the recollections of Admiral Woodworth, during the tests, the Sea Wolf successfully shot down 114-mm shells in flight. The frigates “Broadsword” and “Diamond” had two SAMs of this type each, i.e. one frigate was able to simultaneously fire 2 targets. True, the range of this air defense system was small - only 6 km., But against aircraft attacking with free-falling bombs, this shortcoming is quite tolerable.

We calculate the effectiveness of the complex, as is customary in the Internet. So, it is obvious that the frigate’s radar will detect planes long before the latter entered the SAM zone, even low-flying Skyhawks will be detected at least in 20 kilometers. The standard 967 radar for detecting air targets of the “Sea Wolf” air defense missile system is able to “see” and determine the parameters of a target with an EPR near 10 and 2 at a distance of 70 km. The 14 km is still flying to the zone of the “Sea Wolf” missiles of the same “Skyhook”, and the aircraft flying at a speed of 980 km / h (272 m / s) will need 51 seconds for this. The reaction time of the “Sea Wolf” is no more than 6 seconds, so by the time the attacking aircraft reach 6 km from the ship, all necessary calculations will be made, and the detection radar will transmit enemy target radar aircraft (the “Sea Wolf” has a radar 910). Start!

The rocket moves with a maximum speed above 2M, but the average speed will obviously be lower - we will take it equal ... well, let it be 1800 km / h or 500 m / s. Skyhawk moves towards the rocket at a speed of 272 m / s, the distance between them at the time of launch of 6000 m, the speed of approach - 772 m / s, the plane and the rocket will meet (roughly) 8 s after launch at 3800 m from the ship. Since the launch was made from two guides - the 2 of the aircraft was fired upon.

Over the past 8 seconds, the 967 radar captures the following targets long ago, so a couple of seconds (maximum) to take to support a new target, another 5-6 seconds, a reaction time and a restart! In 6-7 seconds, enemy aircraft will fly over 1900-2200 meters and will be in 1600 meters from the ship. So after a couple of seconds after the second launch of the missiles, the 2 pilots will meet with their Destiny. And 2 of the C-Wolfe air defense system will be able to “get it” on departure, having fired at them after dropping bombs when they are moving away from the ship.

It turns out that, counting on the passport data of the “Sea Wolf” air defense system, the Broadsworth frigate is capable of firing 6 airplanes in one attack. Given the fact that the probability of hitting a target with one rocket was considered equal to 0,85, one such frigate during the attack will knock down an average of 5 enemy aircraft.

Brilliant result! In theory. But in practice, 8 air attacks on the "Brilliant" or "Broadsward" (both frigates carried two Sea Wolves each) two attacks of the "Sea Wolf" air defense missile (software problems), and in one could not shoot at independent from a complex of reasons (the destroyer Coventry was in the firing line) and only in five cases out of eight was he able to take part in the battle. But for those five combat episodes in which the "Sea Wolfe" nevertheless took part, only 4 Argentine combat aircraft were shot down with its missiles. The best result was reached on May 12 - Brilliant was attacked by four Skyhocks and he destroyed two of them. In two other cases, "Sea Wolfe" shot down one plane per attack, and in one episode could not bring down anyone.

Unfortunately, the author was unable to find data on the actual consumption of the CI Wolfe missile systems. Dear V. Khromov in “Ships of the Falkland War. Fleets of Great Britain and Argentina "indicates:

"At least eight rockets were fired, with which two (and possibly one more) enemy aircraft were shot down"


Accordingly, the probability of hitting a target for one rocket according to V. Khromov is no more than 25-37,5%. Unfortunately, these data cannot be considered reliable - for a long time in print it was stated that "Sea Wolf" shot down five aircraft, later this number was reduced to four, but certainly not two or three. Accordingly, it can be assumed that the number of missiles launched is incorrect. Probably, V. Khromov did not take into account any episodes of the use of the air defense missile system, hence the understated data on the success of the "Sea Wolfe" and, if the conjecture expressed is correct, the underestimation of the launched missiles. Again, V. Khromov does not write: "Eight rockets were fired," he writes: "At least eight rockets were fired."

The author of this article believes that the British spent 4 Xi Wolfe missiles on the destruction of Argentina's 10 aircraft. This gives the probability of hitting a single 40% target, which is even slightly higher than the data of V. Khromov and a very good result for a real fight.

So, we see a gaping gulf between the passport and actual data of the “CI Wolfe” air defense system: if in theory it could fire up to 6 aircraft for one attack, then in practice the complex simply “overslept” almost 40% attacks. And in the remaining cases I have never been able to attack more than two planes, despite the fact that the probability of hitting a target with one missile turned out to be approximately twice as low as declared (40% against 85%).

But "Sea Wolf" turned out to be the most productive British complex: the most massive "Sea Cat" air defense system proved to be not only worse, but absolutely disgusting - there was only one (and dubious) hit on the 80 launches, i.e. the probability of hitting a target with one missile ranges from 0% to 1,25%.


Launch of the missile system "Sea Cat" from the landing ship dock "Intrepid"


Well, let's imagine for a moment that the Wizard in the blue Sea King flew to the area of ​​the landing operation and waved his magic wand and all of the Sea Cat missile systems found the probability of hitting the Sea Wolf target. What happens in this case? During the fights at the Falklands, the "Sea Cat" launched 80 rockets. Accordingly, with the probability of hitting 40%, 32 missiles from these 80-and reached the goal.

But it should be borne in mind that several ships often fired at the same group of Argentine planes: for example, on May 21, the three Daggers were fired at Argonot, Intrepid, Plymouth and Broadsward with missiles - but only Broadwords Has achieved success. Those. even if only one rocket was fired from each of the four ships, all the same, at least one of the Argentine planes was fired at by two rockets. And given the fact that the British clearly did not have time to distribute targets on the air defense system from different ships, it is possible that only three, or even only one, aircraft were fired at from three “Daggers”. Therefore, 32 “effective” missiles, calculated by us, do not mean 32 shot down an aircraft - given that several “efficient” missiles can “aim” at the same machine, it is unlikely that the number of downed machines would exceed 25-27 pieces - and and less. VTOL destroyed at least 21 military aircraft of Argentina. Accordingly, it can be said that even if the Sea Harriers suddenly disappeared, and the most massive KVMF anti-aircraft complexes miraculously acquired the effectiveness of Sea Wolf, this would have had a negligible effect on the final result, if at all. And if you end up with the effectiveness of the "Sea Cat" air defense missile system to "Sea Wolfe", then you should expect a level of air defense that is approximately comparable to what Sea Harriers provided. As it has already been proved in the articles of the Falkland cycle, the task of air defense of the C-Harrier compound failed. Accordingly, the “improved C Cat” would also have failed her.

But in fact, all these arguments are nothing more than fantasies - how could the British get so many of the newest air defense systems? After all, "Sea Wolfe" entered service only in 1979 year. It is clear that this complex should have been expected on ships coming into service since 1979, but what miracle could it have been on earlier ships? The peculiarity of the navy is that the warship is a very long-lived weapon system. These warriors of the seas and oceans serve for 30 years and more, and even fleets that carry out regular renewal of their composition approximately on 2 / 3 consist of ships of at least 10 age. At the same time, even for the richest countries, it is impossible to carry out fleet upgrades so regularly that their naval forces are equipped with only the latest weapons. Accordingly, a large squadron, which included the main combat-ready ships of the fleet, by definition will carry a significant amount of not the most modern weapons. Dreaming otherwise is not forbidden, but the Wizard in the blue "Sea King" still does not arrive.

But maybe in other Western countries there existed an air defense missile system, which the British could adopt instead of the “Sea Cat”, and due to this, dramatically increase the effectiveness of their own air defense? Alas - there were none. "Sea Sparrow"? The first versions of this air defense system were very unreliable structures in which the operator for targeting missiles had to “drive” the target visually.


The fire control post of the CI Sparrow SAM "mark115


More advanced systems with fully automated guidance appeared only at the very end of the 70s, respectively, the British fleet could not have been massively equipped with them in 1982. At the same time, the real effectiveness of Sparrow missiles even in polygon conditions of Desert Storm (external target designation from AWACS aircraft, a lot of time for rapprochement, firing at non-maneuvering targets) did not exceed 40%, and even according to the most optimistic estimates. But there is one more important factor - one of the problems of Sparrow missiles was the poor performance of its semi-active GOS against the background of the underlying surface. Despite the fact that the British landing site in the Falkland Strait was just one continuous underlying surface: attacking planes against the backdrop of the mountains. Those. one can, of course, assume that Sea Sparrow will show somewhat greater efficiency than Sea Cat, but in the specific circumstances of those battles this difference would hardly have been any significant. In any case, “Sea Sparrow” lost much to “Sea Wolfe”, and therefore, even if the British frigates polls got Sea Sparrow, it’s not that they would defeat the Argentinean Aviation, but at least just inflicting losses at the level of VTOL, they would not be able to.

And what else? French "Naval Crotal"? Very good (at least according to the passport specifications) complex, but it also entered service only in 1979-80, and could not be massive to 1982 in any way.

Of course, there is also barreled artillery. For example - "Volcano-Falanx", which, in theory, could shred attacking planes in batches. What is its real effectiveness, we still do not know, but do not forget that the "Falanx" was adopted only in the 1980 year, and also could not be massive to the 1982 year. A very perfect “Goalkeeper”, according to some data, significantly exceeds the “Falanx”, but he entered service only in the 1986 year and had no time for the Falklands conflict.

It would be interesting to try to imagine what the squadron of the Soviet ships could do in those conditions - aircraft-carrying cruisers like 1143, BOD of the project 1134-B, etc. with their various types of air defense systems and a bunch of 30-mm "metal cutters". Here (perhaps!) The result could be different. But for British ships, which Western air defense systems do not put on them, there was no solution capable of replacing “Sea Harriers”.

Battleships



Battleship "Vanguard"


What would happen, send the British to the Falklands modernized "Vanguard", equipped with the latest air defense systems? The answer to this question is diametrically opposed depending on whether the battleship will go togetherЕ with the aircraft carriers Hermes and Invincible or togetherО of these aircraft carriers. If, nevertheless, together, then the defenders can only sympathize - after landing the 380-mm high-explosive shells, they very quickly discourage any resistance to the Argentine infantry. The British already note the significant role of naval artillery in this conflict, and after all only 114-mm guns of British frigates and destroyers fired. The effect of the 885-kilogram mines would be truly amazing. So, if the British had managed to keep Vanguard in the ranks by the year 1982, it could have provided extremely important and, perhaps, even decisive support to the British ground forces on the Falklands.

But if the battleship had been sent together aircraft carriers - alas, nothing good came of it. Yes, of course, “Vanguard” is completely non-destructive for bombs and missiles of Argentina (except that the submarine San Luis could get it with torpedoes), even if it was equipped with the latest air defense system at that time, it could not do the most important thing - to provide air defense of the landing zone landing. As a result, the Argentines, almost without incurring losses from naval air defense systems and artillery, would have caused heavy damage first destroyers and frigates, and then the British transport. Without the Sea Harriers, the British simply could not have inflicted enough casualties on the Argentine Air Force to stop them from attacking ships and switch to land targets. So sending an amphibious connection under the protection of a battleship would most likely lead to the destruction of this amphibious connection from the air, which the battleship would not have been able to prevent ...

... Or could it? One of the authors of TOPWAR, the singer of battleship power, Oleg Kaptsov, in the discussion suggested the following reconstruction: the mighty battleship a la Missouri, equipped with Tomahawk cruise missiles, first erases Argentina’s military airbases to dust - and more than that, Argentine planes have nowhere else to fly! Then - the landing and demonstrative incineration of the field fortifications of the defenders (also mostly unfinished). Here and the tale is over!

It is hard to imagine how much “Tomahawks” would have to spend in order to completely destroy the airfield-based system with which Argentine aviation could “work” on the Falkland Islands. In total, Argentina has more than 140 airfields with artificial turf pitch, but how many of them are located close enough to the coast so that Skyhawks and Daggers can reach Falkland from them - the author is unknown. It is even more difficult to predict how the world community would react to the defeat of civilian airfields with cruise missiles — after all, they would have to be destroyed just like military ones. But we will not ask these questions, but simply take it for granted that all this is possible and acceptable. So, it turns out that the rocket battleship could solve the issue of the Falkland Islands?

With such initial ones - probably, yes, but here's the bad luck ... It is completely unclear why a battleship is needed for the above. If we already allow the possibility of destroying the Argentinean airfield network with cruise missiles, then such missiles can be launched even from a destroyer, even from a submarine, a battleship is absolutely not required for this. But for the artillery support of the landing force, the battleship is not needed either - for this, it is more than enough to equip one or two powerful 152-203-mm guns with sufficient ammunition to each of the amphibious transports of Britain. One glance at the map suggests that the 25-30 km naval artillery system reliably overlaps any defensive positions of Gus Green, Darwin, Port Stanley ... Argentine field fortifications could not withstand artillery of eight-inch caliber, and really serious fortifications like this. Maginot was not there. Of course, 381-mm projectiles would be both more effective and destructive, but the power of 203-mm artillery to suppress Argentine defense was quite enough. And the waterfowl "Iron Kaput" of several tens of thousands of tons is absolutely not necessary for this.

Aircraft carrier.



Possible type of unbuilt English aircraft carrier type "Queen Elizabeth." Instead, they were built "Invincible" ...


Where could he have come from the English? There are enough options: in the middle of the 60, the British were going to build full-fledged ejection aircraft carriers such as the Queen Elizabeth (CVA-1), but for reasons of economy, the program was closed. As a result, instead of the CVA-1, the British fleet received aircraft carriers with vertical takeoff and landing of the Invincible type. However, if their lords had not hit the most unbridled economy, full-fledged aircraft carriers could have been built. However, there is another option - having two aircraft carriers of the Odoyshies type, which entered service in 1951 and 1955, the British managed to take both of these ships out of the fleet by the year of 1978. The Ark Royal served some 23 of the year ... But this ship could carry modern aviation at that time (Bukaniry and Phantoms).

Take, however, the aircraft carrier type "Queen Elizabeth." This ship with a full displacement in 54 500 t does not claim the title of supercarrier, but if it was built, it could carry the air group of the order of 50 aircraft and helicopters. Interestingly, such TTX approximately corresponded to the capabilities of Hermes and Invincible, who fought against the Falklands. Both of these aircraft carriers (together) had a 48 510 t full displacement and before the fighting began carrying 49 aircraft. But, of course, if in real history the British aircraft carriers were decorated with rather vague "Sea Harriers", then on the CVA-1 there would be located the 36 "Phantoms" and "Bukanirs", as well as the 4 DRLO aircraft Gannet AEW.3. And if the first ones do not need special representations, then the last of the above-mentioned aircraft should be told separately. Gannet AEW.3 was a rather strange sight - relatively small (maximum take-off weight - 11 400 kg), screw and low-speed (speed not higher than 402 km / h) the plane, however, had a crew of three (pilot and two Observer) and a very ancient, but still workable radar AN / APS-20 (which was equipped with the Argentine "Neptune"). And, extremely importantly, it could be in the air for 5-6 hours.


Gannet AEW.3. Photo from the collection //igor113.livejournal.com/


What would happen, have the British off the Falkland Islands such an aircraft carrier? As we recall, the original British plan was to destroy the Argentine air bases on the Falklands, simulate a landing, luring the Argentine fleet to the islands and destroying it there in a general battle. As you know, only the second point was a success - the Argentines really believed that the British were about to start the landing operation and brought the fleet to strike the amphibious group. But, not waiting for the English transports, they retreated - neither the Argentine airfields on the Falklands, nor the Argentine fleet could detect the British airfields. The inability of the Sea Harriers to carry anti-radar missiles led to the fact that the Argentinean airborne radar controllers, as well as the fire control radar, were not suppressed, which made the strike capabilities of VTOL aircraft almost zero.

At the same time, "Phantoms" and "Bukaniry" would easily have trampled the entire Argentine air situation monitoring system along with air defense into the damp Falkland soil, because the "Phantoms" could easily carry and use the RRP "Shrike", and the "Bukaniry" - suspended containers EW. After that, the British attack aircraft, capable of carrying tons of ammunition under the wings to 7, would defeat both the runways of both Argentinean airbases and the entire infrastructure that was located around them along with light aircraft. Air defense fighters operating from Argentine continental airfields could do nothing to help - as we know, only the guidance of ground services allowed them to engage in battle with British aircraft, and without external targeting, Argentine pilots could only patrol 5-10 minutes over the islands and fly home due to lack of fuel.

If the Argentine fleet tried to intervene - well, let us remember that the only “Neptune”, which was in extremely poor technical condition, could easily have uncovered the location of the British warrant and watched the British for several hours. Is it possible to assume that four British airborne early warning aircraft with a similar radar will not be able to find Argentine squadrons? Of course, anything can happen in a war, but the likelihood of British success is extremely high. Therefore, it can be argued that if the British had a full-fledged aircraft carrier, they would have achieved their goals from the very beginning, first destroying the Air Force, air defense and airspace controls on the Falklands, and then finding and drowning the Argentine fleet.

It cannot be excluded that this would be quite enough for the surrender of Argentina. But even if not, then ... The presence of four DRLO planes, each of which is able to be airborne for 5-6 hours, made it possible to ensure constant duty during daylight hours (the Argentines did not fly at night) both over the British squadron and over the amphibious forces in the landing area. The attack on Sheffield with a probability of 99% would have been frustrated — it was unlikely that the British Gannet would allow Neptune to feel so free to feel about the British warrant. Of course, the decimeter AN / APS-20 of British DRLOs is far from Peru’s treasures and sees poorly against the underlying surface, of course, one plane could suddenly fail (the technical readiness ratio of the British aircraft was over 80%, but not 100% ) and a “hole” would be formed, of course, “it was smooth on paper, but they forgot about the inevitable accidents at sea”, etc., etc., and all this did not give the British an absolutely impenetrable shield. But one thing can be said with complete certainty: if the sky over the Falklands patrolled the Gannet's with the "Phantoms", then a significant number of Argentine strike groups were discovered and intercepted long before they reached the British ships. Yes, some planes could break through, yes, they caused some losses, but Argentines would have to pay twice or three times more for this success than it actually happened. Including taking into account the fact that neither “Canberra YOU” nor “Skyhawks” (yes, strictly speaking, not “Daggers”) were able to successfully break away from those capable of accelerating to 2 231 km / h “Phantoms” - but how many times the British on Sea Harriers could not catch up with the enemy running away from them! Accordingly, the hopes of the Argentine high command for causing unacceptable damage to the British during the landing would have melted much faster than it did in reality. And the British "Bukanirs" were much more successful than the "Sea Harriers" who could convince the leadership of the Falklands defense of the complete futility of positional defense. Recall that

"In general, the campaign only" Sea Harriers "800-th AE dropped forty-two 1000-pound bombs and 21 cassette BL.755, and" Harriers "1-th squadron - 150 bombs, of which 4 managed."


Well, one of the variants of the standard load of the Bukanir attack aircraft is eight 1000-pounder bombs. Accordingly, a dozen Bukanirovs were fully capable of dumping as much and even more ammunition as the Si Harrier squadron during the entire war in one flight.

Thus, it would not be an exaggeration to say that having only one, not the largest, and not at all super, but still an aircraft carrier with catapults and a full-fledged air group would lead to a quick victory for the British, and much less blood than it actually did.

During the discussion of the Falkland cycle articles, such an opinion was also expressed - the performance of the Phantoms would have been lower than the C Harriers, because the latter had the best opportunities for maneuvering combat. Moreover, the “Phantoms” could have been defeated by the Argentine “Mirage” and “Daggers”, which are much more adapted to the “dogfight” (melee air combat). This is extremely doubtful, if only for the simple reason that there were practically no maneuverable air battles over the Falklands, but in any case, the following should be kept in mind.
When the British were still planning to build full-fledged aircraft carriers such as the Queen Elizabeth, the composition of the air group had not yet been determined, and at least two applicants existed for the role of the deck fighter. One of them was, of course, the "Phantom", but France offered to develop and deliver to the English a carrier-based fighter based on the Mirage. The proposal was considered seriously, and now one can hardly say what the British would prefer. The problem of choosing a carrier-based fighter lost all relevance when an ejaculated aircraft carrier put up a cross. But if the British still built the Queen Elizabeth, it is possible that the deck version of the Mirage was in its hangars, and then the Argentinean fighters even in the dogfight would have absolutely no light at all.

DRLO helicopters.



"Sea King" AEW 7


Many respected TOPWAR regulars, while not denying the role of airborne radar detection, believe it is possible to ensure the latter through helicopters equipped with powerful radars. How much is this possible, and could this help the English in the Falklands?

The first thing to note is that the DRLO helicopter will, in its abilities, always lose to the DRLO aircraft. The same AN ​​/ APS-20 was put on Neptunes and deck Gannet without any problems. But the attempt of the Americans in 1957 g to install such a radar on a Sikorsky helicopter was not successful - the radar turned out to be too big for the helicopter. During the Falkland conflict, the British converted two Westland Sea King HAS.2 helicopters, installing Searchwater radars on them, but at that time this radar was aimed at finding surface targets, rather than airborne ones, and could hardly provide decisive support in identifying hostile aircraft . However, it was never possible to verify this in practice - the helicopters did not have time to go to war. In addition to the British, the DRLO helicopters were engaged in France (helicopters based on Pumas and AS.532UL Cougar), in the USSR (Ka-31) and in China, but nowhere could they attach to the helicopter radar at least a little something corresponding to the DRLO aircraft. In addition to the quality of the radar, the limited height of the flight also plays a big role - the higher we raise the radar above sea level, the farther is the radio horizon, and here the same Ka-31 with its practical 5 ceiling is difficult to load with the E-2С "Hokai", whose counterpart tends to km xnumx. And besides, it is necessary to take into account the fact that the DRLO plane of the “Hokaya” level, the “Sentry” or the domestic A-10U is not just a flying radar, but also an aviation command center, which cannot be deployed in a helicopter.

But the main drawback of the DRLO helicopter is not at all in the above. The Achilles' heel of an ARLO helicopter is a combination of low speed with a small patrol time. While the same Gannet is able to be airborne for 5-6 hours, and E-2С - and 7 hours, despite the fact that the cruising speed of the latter exceeds 500 km / h, the same British Sea King AEW can patrol no more than 2 hours, and Ka-31 - 2,5 hours, having a cruising speed of 204 and 220 km, respectively.

As a result, the US E-2C usually patrols, moving away towards the potential threat on 300 km, and is able to spend at least five hours on this line, and if necessary, the American AUG sets up two air patrols - in 300 and in 600 kilometers from the warrant in the direction of potential threats. The helicopter, obviously, is not able to do anything like this - having retired barely 200 km from the order, he is immediately forced to return. Accordingly, the three British "King" performed by the DRLO (the standard air group of British aircraft carriers after the Falklands), making two sorties daily, are able to provide only six-hour patrols in 100 km from the order. To control the airspace for at least daylight such helicopters can only patrol directly above the order.

By ka-xnumx the situation is even worse. On the one hand, it is likely that it carries the most powerful radar ever installed on a helicopter. At the same time, the Ka-31, although it cannot perform the functions of a flying aviation control center, is capable of transmitting its radar data in real time directly to the carrier ship, which performs the “headquarters” function. But you have to pay for everything - the Ka-31 has a huge rotating antenna (weight - 31 kg, length - 200 m, area - 5.75 sq. M), and stabilizing our rotary-wing during its rotation is a rather difficult task. The developers coped, but the Ka-6 in search mode has a very low speed, much less cruising.

Therefore, the DRLO helicopter is all the same “aviation defense of the mast”, capable of seriously controlling except the airspace directly above the squadron. This has its advantages, because it is better to have at least such control than no control at all, but there are also disadvantages - after finding a working radar of an ARLO helicopter, the enemy will know exactly where the ship order is located. But this is extremely secret information - the same Argentines, having lost the ability to use their own reconnaissance aircraft "Neptune", could "calculate" the location of British aircraft carriers only on the fifth day of the landing operation. But hang over the "Hermes" and "Invincible" DRLO helicopter ... The fact of the matter is that after finding an enemy DRLO aircraft, one can only guess where the aircraft carrier itself is at this time, and the DRLO helicopter unmasks the position of the ship group.

Thus, the DRLO helicopter is an ersatz, and is unable to replace a full-fledged DRLO aircraft. As in the case of vertical take-off aviation, it is capable of expanding the capabilities of a ship-based connection, but not enough to successfully withstand a full-fledged air group of horizontal take-off aircraft.

What would have happened if the English had DRLO helicopters in the Falklands? Alas, but most likely it would not have helped them to find the Argentine fleet - due to the meager radius of the helicopters. According to Sheffield, the situation is fortunate, but it cannot be ruled out that helicopters could still detect Neptune and disrupt the operation of the Argentines, although there are not so many chances for that. But where the DRLO helicopters would really come in handy is to defend the landing area. In this case, the British aircraft carriers had the opportunity to leave three helicopters, say, from Hermes to cover the aircraft carrier, and transfer three DRLOs from Invincible to one of the dock ships, or even to the ground bridgehead. And then the British had a good opportunity to control the airspace directly above the landing area, and almost throughout the daylight hours. Although the radars of the then “Kings” were not good, there is no doubt that their presence would significantly increase the effectiveness of the Sea Harriers, and, of course, the British would have suffered much smaller losses, knocking out much more Argentinian aircraft.
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  1. +1
    3 August 2016 07: 44
    And so what? .. They would have shot down more on two planes .. Well, the landing was better .. Total would have remained the same ..
    1. +1
      3 August 2016 09: 10
      BOD project 1134-B, etc. with their various types of air defense systems and a bunch of 30-mm "metal cutters". Here (perhaps!) The result could be different.

      That's all. This is exactly what I wrote about last time.

      Instead of developing an expensive VTOL and other expensive trash, it would be better to invest in commonplace anti-aircraft guns with radars (AK-230) and try to saturate the fleet with the greatest amount of air defense missile systems: mount SiWolfs on the BDK, the replacement program of useless Cicats for export Cersperrow (what would you have there I didn’t repeat it, this is a more advanced system, several times more than the launch range and mass of the missile warhead). All this would have a cumulative effect.

      But Britain would have received a combat-ready fleet, not the junk that it hoped only for the failure of the fuses from the enemy
      1. +4
        3 August 2016 09: 25
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        whatever you say there is a more advanced system

        But almost the same useless - against low-flying targets
        1. 0
          3 August 2016 09: 34
          Actually, the most important thing is ZRAK. And the Angles already in the summer 1982 ran to buy the Falanx
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          But almost the same useless - against low-flying targets

          At least she has supersonic rockets.
          and the launch range is not 6 km

          And the Argentines flew not so close to the water as you are trying to convince here (other flight profiles are not considered a priori). How else would attack aircraft be able to detect ships in the ocean. It was at that moment that they should have been taken, lukewarm. and the 30-kilometer Sparrow would be useful
          1. +5
            3 August 2016 09: 52
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            At least she has supersonic rockets.

            Only one
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            and the launch range is not 6 km

            SI Dart has a launch range of hoo. How did this help?
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            And yes, the Argentines did not fly as close above the water as you think.

            just so low and flew
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            How else could attack aircraft find ships in the ocean?

            According to external target designation, Oleg :)) The first time it was Neptune, the second - they calculated the approximate location of aircraft carriers by take-off and landing of the aircraft. At the same time, the attack aircraft were at low altitude, and made a slide - climbed 150 m, cut Agaves and - down. It was possible to detect them at this altitude, but not to fire from an air defense system, there was too little time for reaction, and even if the missiles were launched at the moment the aircraft was raised, it still did not have time to fly. And this is IN PRINCIPLE impossible, even the reaction time of the fully automated Sea Wolf and then much more. So there is nothing to argue about.
            1. +1
              3 August 2016 10: 01
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Only one

              More difficult to react and dodge
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              SI Darth has a range

              After the stupid death of Sheffield, only 4 remained.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              in the second - they calculated the approximate location of aircraft carriers on the take-off and landing of aircraft. At the same time, attack aircraft went at a low altitude, and made a slide - climbed 150 m, cut in Agaves and - down

              What are the Agave, which aircraft carriers

              Skyhocks from the RTS had only a radio altimeter. And they flew at the height, saving fuel, visually found transports and went to the battle

              The same Sir Halahed, was hit 454 kg bomb three days before approaching the islands. That time did not explode. In the next once worked
              1. +4
                3 August 2016 13: 06
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                More difficult to react and dodge

                Oleg, I described ALL attacks individually in the articles of the Falklands cycle. What kind of "react"? The British did not have time to get ready to fire in line of sight, and you are talking about how Sparrow will "extinguish" the planes at the time of the "slide".
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                After the stupid death of Sheffield, only 4 remained.

                So what? Destroyers with Darts were attacked more than once or twice and had every opportunity to shoot their enemy missiles. Sense - almost zero, somehow only the latest modification proved itself, but it was on one destroyer
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                RTS Skyhawks only had a radio altimeter

                And what does the Skyhawk have to do with it? They didn't find ANYONE. Skyhawks flew only where it was known for sure about the presence of British ships - i.e. to the landing sites. "In the ocean" as you write, they did not find anyone. The skyhawks attacked the British aircraft carrier order only because they were brought to the target of Super Etandara.
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                The same Sir Galahad was hit by a 454 kg bomb three days before approaching the islands

                Oleg, do not fantasize :)
          2. 0
            3 August 2016 10: 13
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Actually, the most important thing is ZRAK. And the Angles already in the summer 1982 ran to buy the Falanx
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            But almost the same useless - against low-flying targets

            At least she has supersonic rockets.
            and the launch range is not 6 km

            And the Argentines flew not so close to the water as you are trying to convince here (other flight profiles are not considered a priori). How else would attack aircraft be able to detect ships in the ocean. It was at that moment that they should have been taken, lukewarm. and the 30-kilometer Sparrow would be useful

            I read a little.
            And I found out that the British pi .... sy. As they were so they remain☺
            1. +3
              3 August 2016 11: 14
              but very dangerous ... like those that are "penguins" behind a puddle.
          3. +5
            3 August 2016 12: 25
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            And the Angles in the summer of 1982 ran to buy the Phalanxes

            “You’ll still be a laughing matter,” but for the money spent on the war with Argentina, the British could quietly and peacefully buy not only the Falklands, but also a couple of archipelagos in any pleasant and convenient place to live. And without unnecessary losses on both sides.
            In your support, Oleg, I can say that this article is secondary and does not carry any special semantic load. If yes, if only ... About my grandmother and primary sexual characteristics, I hope you do not need to remind anyone?
            1. +6
              3 August 2016 12: 43
              Quote: inkass_98
              "You will still be a laugh", but for the money spent on the war with Argentina, the British could quietly and peacefully buy not only the Falklands, but also a couple of archipelagos

              Maybe cheaper
              but the status of "mistress of the seas" did not allow.
              In Game of Thrones terms, the UK has decided to pay with iron, not gold.
        2. +1
          3 August 2016 12: 26
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          But almost as worthless

          completely useless against low-flying, and besides, the reaction rate fit end-to-end, i.e. in real conditions, did not have time to react to aircraft flying due to mountain radar shadow.
    2. +2
      3 August 2016 09: 26
      Quote: parusnik
      .Two planes would have shot down more

      Well, let’s put it not on two, but on twenty two, and in a couple of days, and not in five, and the losses of the British in people and ships would be two or three times lower.
      Quote: parusnik
      The result would remain the same.

      Bottom line yes
    3. +1
      3 August 2016 11: 04
      Andrey, as a regular author of the site "Alternative History", is back on his hobby. The only thing that lately I've become a bit dubious about his other articles. That's about the cruiser pr. 26, is everything true and true, or is there some "alternativeness" to real space and time?
      I even asked him to indicate the primary sources in order to understand how to read these articles, as artistic (somewhat fantastic) or as real-technical ... hi
      1. +3
        3 August 2016 13: 09
        Quote: qwert
        I even asked him to indicate the primary sources in order to understand how to read these articles, as artistic (somewhat fantastic) or as real-technical

        It’s hard to accept such a claim. On an alternative, I write alternatives (and not always), but here I write a real story. In those cases, when it comes to an alternative (and this is my first article with one here) I DIRECTLY write 10 times: ALTERNATIVE :)))
    4. +3
      3 August 2016 11: 51
      hi
      Very interesting, and written interesting.
      Recently Sergey Linnik offered his work on the topic of alternative history.
      Apparently you also wanted to try yourself in this genre.

      But for British ships, which Western air defense systems do not put on them, there was no solution capable of replacing “Sea Harriers”.
      Author Andrey from Chelyabinsk


      But they made conclusions and such an opportunity appeared several years later.
      The author mentions air defense systems of various types and a bunch of 30-mm "metal cutters".

      This spring, I wrote about British frigates such as the 22 (Type 22).
      I want to highlight the ships of the 3 series (subclass “Cornwall”).
      As the British believed - it was the most well-armed of all three series built. They were due to the conclusions reached after the end of the conflict in the Falklands.
      Here is a quote from my article:
      After that war, it became obvious that, in addition to missile weapons on British ships, cannon (universal) artillery and more effective short-range air defense weapons were needed.
      Multipurpose artillery would be useful for firing at coastal targets, while reinforced anti-aircraft artillery would be useful primarily for the missile defense of ships, as well as for hitting other enemy targets and light surface forces of the enemy.

      Therefore, the armament of the 3-series frigates (subclass “Cornwall”) was different from the ships of the first two series.
      On the nose instead of the PU for the ASM Exocet, an 114-mm 114 mm / 55 Mark 8 shipboard universal installation was installed.
      In addition, the ships equipped 30-mm ZAK with a rotating block of Goalkeeper trunks, aka Sea Vulcan 30.

      * 30-mm The Goalkeeper's 7-barrel anti-aircraft gun is a modification of the GAU-8 Avenger aircraft cannon, which is installed on the American A-10 Thunderbolt attack aircraft.


      The main armament of the 3-series frigates consisted of:
      2x PU for RGM-84 Harpoon PCR;
      2x PU ZRK short-range GWS-25 Sea Wolf;
      2x three-tube 324-mm torpedo tubes Plessey STWS Mk 2;
      1. +1
        3 August 2016 13: 12
        Quote: Mister X
        Apparently you also wanted to try yourself in this genre.

        You could say that. Or you can say that I simply answered the numerous "And if" sounded in the comments to my quite historical "Falkland" cycle
        Quote: Mister X
        But they made conclusions and such an opportunity appeared several years later.

        You see, the "metal cutters" could well have helped the British in the Falklands, where the Argentines attacked sporadically, with small forces, almost without using missile defense, without air cover and electronic warfare. Those. tactics at the level of the Second World War. But against a serious air group ...
        Therefore - no, they did not draw conclusions.
        1. 0
          3 August 2016 13: 51
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Therefore - no, they did not draw conclusions.

          I do not agree.
          Officially, the "quarrel of the two bald men over the hairbrush" ended on June 20, 1982.
          And the order for Cornwall (F99) was placed on 14 December 1982 of the year.
          That is, while the Falklands War was on, the specifications of the 3-series frigates could have been specified.
          with an eye on the recently received combat experience.
          I will not argue, the 22 type frigates were designed to fight Soviet submarines,
          but I am sure that in the summer and autumn of 82 in Britain they did not think about the third world war.
          The summer events in the southwestern Atlantic were too fresh in memory.
  2. -1
    3 August 2016 07: 53
    If only, if only ... History has no subjunctive mood. Now, if my grandmother had ... she would have been a grandfather.
    1. 0
      3 August 2016 09: 26
      the battleship, even being equipped with the latest at the time of the air defense system, could not do the most important thing - to provide air defense of the landing zone.

      Actually, 6 destroyers and 15 frigates have not gone away. And they stand Ak-230, along with SAM

      The battleship would perform its most important task:
      Destroyed to the ground all military sites and arg. positions on the islands, including the airfield of Port Stanley, where the entire war was uselessly driven by strategic aviation
      Moreover, some of the flights would be delayed. Him as an elephant pellet, and the Argentines each attack is worth its weight in gold
      Well, one of the variants of the standard load of Bukanir attack aircraft is eight 1000-pounder bombs.

      when taking off from the deck of the ship?

      The air defense system criticized, and the aircraft carrier, as usual, endowed with fantastic features.
      For example, I forgot to say that at any moment he could go to sea, they should have been built no less than two. Break often, and repaired for a long time. Where did the shavers have money for two supercarriers, if there would be more sailors on one than on all the destroyers and frigates combined. And there is a low reliability of the system, everything hangs in the balance - one crash landing or catapult breakdown, and the Britons already have nothing. No air defense theater, no bombs, no drlo

      Another pogrom on USS Nimitz, 1981 year
      1. avt
        +2
        3 August 2016 09: 32
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        The battleship would perform its most important task:
        Destroyed to the ground all military sites and arg. positions on the islands, including the airfield of Port Stanley, where the entire war was uselessly driven by strategic aviation

        : They drove to no avail - this is a fact. But is that really the whole war? Well ? bully
        Quote: avt
        I understood why Andrew wrote an article!

        Quote: avt
        For a long time, the campaign with Oleg did not throw comments, and so I decided to conduct a spiritualistic session to call Kaptsov

        The seance was a success! Let us now observe with interest the correspondence between "Grozny" and "Kurbsky". laughing
      2. +4
        3 August 2016 09: 44
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Actually, 6 destroyers and 15 frigates have not gone away. And they stand Ak-230, along with SAM

        Since all this turns out to be extremely effective against Argentinean aircraft, a battleship is not needed. And if all this does NOT turn out to be super-efficient against Argentine aircraft, then the battleship will not help
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        The battleship would perform its most important task:

        Without aircraft carriers - would not have accomplished anything. Shooting without adjusting the fire is a bad thing, and having no aviation to land reconnaissance groups with spotters is a bit creepy.
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        when taking off from the deck of the ship?

        Why not? What are the problems?
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        The air defense system criticized, and the aircraft carrier, as usual, endowed with fantastic features.

        Functionality is the most real in both of them.
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        For example, I forgot to say that at any moment he could go to sea, they should have been built in at least two.

        And in order to provide the Falklands with 2 small ABs, they should have been built in at least three, or even four
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        They break often and are repaired for a long time.

        Oleg, look at the SAM :)))
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        where the Britons have money for two supercarriers

        55 thousand tons and an air group of 50 aircraft - SUPER ayanosets? Funny
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        if there were more sailors serving on one than on all destroyers and frigates combined.

        Oleg, more than 2500 people served on Hermes and Invincible in total. And the CVA-01 staff (together with the air group, etc.) is about 3 people. The cost of maintenance is approximately the same proportion. Saving, of course, is, but it is LUCKY.
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        And there is low system reliability, everything hangs in the balance - one emergency landing or catapult breakdown, and the Britons already have nothing

        The consequences of an emergency landing are eliminated very quickly, and if one catapult is broken, there is a second.
        1. -1
          3 August 2016 09: 54
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          All this is extremely effective against Argentine planes, the battleship is not needed.

          Who will take the shock tasks?
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Without aircraft carriers - would not have done anything. Shooting without adjusting the fire is a bad thing,

          Helicopter aboard Vanguard, 1947 year

          Over the next 30 years, of course, the situation with turntables worsened
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Oleg, look at the ZRK

          SAMs are not alone
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Falklands 2 small AB

          They are not comparable in complexity.
          Quinn, if he goes to repair - you will not wait. And who said that there would be no war tomorrow?

          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          The effects of an emergency landing are eliminated very quickly.

          For those couple of days squadron cover
          1. +2
            3 August 2016 09: 59
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Who will take the shock tasks?

            Installation of large-caliber (152-203 mm) guns on amphibious ships
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Helicopter aboard Vanguard, 1947 year

            Which even the antediluvian "Pukars" will carry from the sky
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            They are not comparable in complexity.

            Yes, 2 AB is DIFFICULT than one.
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            For those couple of days squadron cover

            Hour.
            1. +1
              3 August 2016 10: 18
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Installation of large-caliber (152-203 mm) guns on amphibious ships

              Without stabilization systems? Moreover, the paratroopers themselves are extremely vulnerable to all sorts of Exosets (Glamorgan) and fire from the air and the coast

              Why reinvent the wheel if it could be (and was before 1960) an option that is effective in all aspects.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Which even the antediluvian "Pukars" will carry from the sky

              It is unlikely that they will have time, especially as the guard hangs over the top mast - all the targets are practically near the water itself.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              2 AV IS MORE DIFFICULT.

              Easier
              A gas turbine engine instead of boilers, at times less power, there is not even a hint of arresting gear, all kinds of chippers gas. jets and catapults. Crew reduced three times
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              For those couple of days squadron cover
              Hour.

              Sbatsay article. Repair capabilities of aircraft carriers.

              After how many minutes will this one be repaired?

              or:
              Another contingency occurred in the 1988 year. During a cruise in the Arabian Sea aboard the Nimitz, a state of emergency occurred from the Rise of the Machines cycle - the A-7E attack aircraft was wedged by a six-barreled Vulcan cannon. 4000 shots per minute!
              The gun was riddled with a KA-6D tanker standing in front. This circumstance only added drama - from the tanks KA-6D splashed out and instantly ignited tons of jet fuel, turning the aircraft into a torch of fire.

              While the tanker was pushed overboard, he managed to set fire to the 5 of the Corsair aircraft, as well as the Viking and Intruder stationed at the nearest spotting.
              1. +1
                3 August 2016 12: 49
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                2 AV IS MORE DIFFICULT.

                Easier

                better, if one is defeated, the second will survive and continue to perform the task
              2. +3
                3 August 2016 13: 46
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                Without stabilization systems? Moreover, the paratroopers themselves are extremely vulnerable to all sorts of Exosets (Glamorgan) and fire from the air and the coast

                The stabilization system, Oleg, consists in the presence of a "gyroscopic inclinometer" which closes the circuit and fires a shot when the gun rolls are equal to zero. Known since the First World War.
                Or do you think that LC has some other stabilization? :)))
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                It is unlikely that they will have time, especially as the guard hangs over the top mast - all the targets are practically near the water itself.

                Oleg, look at the map of the Falklands and places of fighting.
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                GTE instead of boilers, at times less power, there is not even a hint of aerofinishers, all kinds of gas chippers. jets and catapults.

                Special coating on the deck, so that it does not collapse from the exhaust of the VTOL engines, twice as many EI and other electrics (radars and so on) that are required on EVERY ship on the ship. Oleg, the rule that two warships are more expensive than a ship of the same class but no one has canceled an equal total displacement.
                The crew is reduced three times
                On one, and they need two. So in the end, it turns out 2 people on Hermes and Invincible against 500 on the Elizabeth project
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                Sbatsay article. Repair capabilities of aircraft carriers.

                Maybe I'll "bang"
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                After how many minutes will this one be repaired?

                And how many times did this happen to British aircraft carriers? :)))
              3. +1
                3 August 2016 14: 53
                Well, what's the deal with Vulcan ended then? Did Nimitz play the overkill? Or stayed on duty for another two months, washing soot off the deck?
            2. 0
              3 August 2016 12: 37
              It is easier for Pucare to demolish a helicopter than Mirage, and it demolished - Argentina's only air victory
        2. +1
          3 August 2016 14: 27
          Andrey, many thanks for the article.
          A small addition, the British had a modernization program Gannet AEW.3 (Gannet AEW.7) with the use of avionics E-2 Hokai.

          About funds. Minus 3 AB type "Invinnsbl", minus the Nimrod AEW program (930 million pounds sterling by 1986), minus the VTOL program. There and for two AV type CVA-01 or one CVA-01 and the modernization of "Arc Royal" would be enough.
          1. 0
            3 August 2016 14: 38
            Minus are the best, at least in the west, base PLO aircraft (which the Americans and everyone also have) and minus the Harriers that were actually created for the RAF?
            1. 0
              3 August 2016 15: 15
              Modification AEW base aircraft AWACS.
              The choice is either a refusal from the program (i.e. more money for the Tornado), or minus 57 Sea Harrier FRS.1 and three double T.4N.
              1. 0
                3 August 2016 15: 25
                The British are still DAD, but does the DRLO seem superfluous? They chose the more expensive Tornado, because the Americans needed the Harriers. lol
                1. 0
                  3 August 2016 15: 46
                  This program did not take off, they came to it because of a reduction in fleet costs (abandonment of AV-abandonment of carrier-based AWACS), initially they wanted to abandon it because of high technological risks.
                  PLO is Nimrod Mk.1 and Mk.2

                  In the sense? Is Harrier Mk.50 (AV-8A / AV-8C) transmitted from the presence of FAC?
                  1. 0
                    3 August 2016 15: 54
                    She came because you can’t shove such equipment into the deck.

                    When impatient passed GR.3
                    1. 0
                      3 August 2016 17: 19
                      Can't AN / APS-120/125 or AN / APS-98 be "shoved" into a carrier-based aircraft? Did not know.

                      When? By the time of the "Tempest" they had enough of their own AV-8A / AV-8B.
                      1. 0
                        3 August 2016 17: 49
                        Is it almost empty flying?
                        GR.3 in the south Atlantic, all newer that the Americans were - recently.
                      2. +1
                        3 August 2016 18: 28
                        What are you talking about? If about a catapult, then BS-6 launches 32 tons at a speed of 185 km / h, a 27-ton "Phantom" or "Bukanir" at a speed of 220 km / h, what is lighter (E-2C 23 556 kg) at a speed of 270 km / h.

                        The specification for the prototype in 1965, the official development began in 1970, in 1974 the first tests, in 1980 the machine goes into service. In 1976, an intergovernmental agreement was concluded for 690 cars (plus 164 (?) For the FAC). What side is Harrier and the Falkland conflict? Are you about the marine version of the tornado?
                      3. 0
                        3 August 2016 19: 24
                        About the aircraft base PLO.

                        It was all about what, and what side of the Tornado to the Falkland conflict?
                      4. 0
                        3 August 2016 19: 43
                        The conversation was about a possible cost savings, you mentioned Nimrod Mk.1 / Mk.2, they (base PLO planes) are sideways to the topic.

                        If you take the trouble to look at the comment thread, you will understand that talking about the abandonment of 60 VTOL aircraft for the fleet in favor of the "Phantoms", or the abandonment of the VTOL aircraft program altogether.
                      5. 0
                        3 August 2016 22: 06
                        The conversation is pointless, neither from PLO / DRLO nor from VTOL aircraft (which were RAF in general) would not refuse, letting them down during VTOL modernization from the Air Force for the needs of the fleet would be saved on the contrary.
                      6. +1
                        4 August 2016 05: 00
                        Namely, that the subject matter and the case. Work on the basic aviation AEW complex (1968-1986) began after the closure of the ship's aircraft AEW complex NAST 6166 (1962-1966), the program was closed in 1970-1971 due to high financial and technical risks. Gannet AEW.3 / AEW.7 / E-2C and Shackleton Mk.2 are better than combat-ready, but obsolete Shackleton Mk.2 and sky-ready Nimrod AEW.3. In the future, you can count on E-3a (late 70s / early 80s -th), this alignment will be many times better than reality.
                        In the presence of carrier-based horizontal takeoff and landing aircraft, there is no sense in VTOL aircraft (subject to resource limitations).
                      7. 0
                        4 August 2016 08: 01
                        Absolutely against the case, the Englishman began immediately as a PLO, but it is more complicated.
                        The idea is that large ABs for more modern than F-4K aircraft had to be built, and RAF in Europe had already 10 years of ready VTOL aircraft, from which it was just necessary to remove the reservation and put the radar of the same weight.
                      8. 0
                        4 August 2016 08: 59
                        Absolutely against the case, the Englishman began immediately as a PLO, but it is more complicated.

                        Your personal assessment does not change anything, if the British PLO plane flew, then there is no SDLO, and this was expected.
                        The PLO aircraft program has nothing to do with the topic.

                        The idea is that large ABs for more modern than F-4K aircraft had to be built, and RAF in Europe had already 10 years of ready VTOL aircraft, from which it was just necessary to remove the reservation and put the radar of the same weight.

                        At the time of laying the CVA-01, neither the VTOL aircraft nor the LOVE yet.
                      9. 0
                        5 August 2016 11: 51
                        Has, he was originally a PLO, which is more complicated and expensive. Everything flew with them.

                        CVVP was already flying in the army while CVA-01 was only in the project

                        and in general
                        [Quote]
                        the principal reason for the cancellation was that the Defense Review believed adequate cover could be better provided East of Suez by RAF strike aircraft flying from bases in Australia and uninhabited Islands in the Indian Ocean, [8] than by a small carrier fleet in the 1970s which would have still included Hermes. The Review asserted the carrier's only effective use was to project British power east of Suez. The Review asserted, without evidence, that the RN carriers were too 'vulnerable' for the RN's other major theater in the North Atlantic. [9] When the British government decided later in 1967 that it would withdraw from east of Suez, the case for carriers weakened further in its eyes, and the actual 1966 Review stated that the ability of RAF to cover 300 miles offshore was enough for the 1970s, regardless of whether the Air Forces claim to be able to provide air cover out to 700 miles was contested, and without the 150 TSR2 aircraft, canceled by Labor in mid 1965, which were the real RAF argument for the island hopping strategy '. [7]
                        [Quote]
                        and at first they wanted to turn the Falklands into a "co-ownership" with Argentina, then they wanted to leave it altogether, like Oman a year earlier, the Argentines simply hurried.
                      10. 0
                        5 August 2016 12: 47
                        Has, he was originally a PLO, which is more complicated and expensive. Everything flew with them.

                        So we have a "paradox", the PLO from the government's financial guarantee for development in 1965 to the first flight in 1967 and AEW, which sawed from 1968 to 1986, spending about 1 billion pounds. without much success.
                        Believe yourself?

                        CVVP was already flying in the army while CVA-01 was only in the project

                        An experienced prototype, which is up to the planes of horizontal take-off and landing as to China in one place?

                        The Review asserted, without evidence, that the RN carriers were too 'vulnerable' for the RN's other major theater in the North Atlantic. [9]

                        Thanks, I read Wikipedia. The usual undercover fight between RAF and RN, the first wanted to protect the TSR-2, so the "analyst" went into action.
                      11. 0
                        5 August 2016 13: 46
                        We have an objective reality, the English PLO plane is the best, at least in the West. Submarines are much more difficult to find than surface ships or aircraft.

                        There are a lot of prototypes, to which later these Argentinean planes in the south Atlantic were like this ...
                        They came from the British Air Force to the Navy much later, all this time England had ordinary aircraft carriers.

                        Evidence was a Tu-22, TSR-2 also did not give a move - without a variable sweep of the wing there was an airplane.
                      12. 0
                        5 August 2016 14: 29
                        We have an objective reality, the English PLO plane is the best, at least in the West.

                        You again proudly declare that the PLO plane is more complicated than the AWACS? I don’t see the point of your speech, please explain?

                        They came from the British Air Force to the Navy much later, all this time England had ordinary aircraft carriers.

                        The Eagle was decommissioned in January 1972 and scrapped in 1978.
                        In May 1975, the British Ministry of Defense makes an order for 24 SeaHarrier VTOL aircraft to equip new aircraft-carrying ships of the Illastries class (the first was laid down in 1973, built in 1977, commissioned in 1980). At the time of the order in RN, only one aircraft carrier carrying horizontal take-off and landing aircraft, and that one is being decommissioned in 1978 (for scrap in 1979). No ships, no planes, that's all the competition.

                        Evidence was a Tu-22, TSR-2 also did not give a move - without a variable sweep of the wing there was an airplane.

                        This "basis" was shifted to the Americans, the Tu-22 is the problem of the fleet, the LAV type "Invincible" air group of as many as 5 C-Harriers is capable of intercepting a single Tu-95RTs, but not the APUG Tu-22 / Tu-22M3. After the TSR-2, there were plans to buy fifty F-111 and E-2A Hawkai, the same "successful". The RAF fought for their piece of the budget to the last.
                      13. 0
                        5 August 2016 15: 21
                        Not proudly (not Englishman) but competently. The meaning was repeatedly immediately in the next sentence ...
                        Submarines are much more difficult to find than surface ships or aircraft.

                        you can still ask why he was called that.

                        At least Ark-Royal was forgotten, which served until 1979 and about Hermes converted to VTOL
                        in total, the British aircraft carriers of three classes had 5pcs
                        There were no supersonic aircraft capable of fighting MiGs or Mirages, in view of this, and also the Tu-22 refused. Against the latter and the Americans, instead of F-4s, F-14s appeared to push back the interception line as much as possible, but also "without guarantees."
                      14. 0
                        5 August 2016 15: 51
                        Who cares? AEW the British did not master, period. They came to the base car after folding NAST 6166, actually Nimrod AEW was pulled due to the lobby of the industry, if there is NAST 6166 / AEW.7 they will calmly buy E-3.

                        Materiel. Arc Royal was decommissioned in 1978, scrapped in 1979. Hermes could not carry the Phantom or Buccaneer, ie no competition for the Harriers by 1975.
                        Is there a link to information about the abandonment of the fleet’s missions due to the lack of aircraft? Mirage can not be put on the deck?
                      15. 0
                        5 August 2016 16: 08
                        If there is no interest, then of course none. They already had it, then the loot just sawed. Maybe more Orions will buy?
                        Ark-Royal served until February 14, 1979, they began to break in Scotland on September 28, 1980 (they finished only in 1983) and here Argentina did not know what Ferret was, although it was exhibited there 10 years before the war and did not cause interest, WAS HEARED. laughing
                        What "shock missions" if the hulking Phantoms were shot down by the MiG-21, and the Mirages would have been shot down, and why links if the French Navy instead of the deck Mirage needed an American supersonic Crusader, which served there until 1999? "Unpleasant" was the plane, the Greeks sold it only in a subsonic version.
                      16. +1
                        5 August 2016 16: 37
                        Even better, the whole world divides PLO and AWACS aircraft into different classes, a conspiracy? Do not remind the range of detection of air targets by the aircraft Nimrod Mr 1 and Mr 2?

                        Ok, the Russian-speaking Vicki is wrong. The meaning has changed? Which cars should compete with the Sea Harriers?

                        Ie no. Thank.
                      17. 0
                        5 August 2016 16: 54
                        Correctly divides, AWAC is much simpler than PLO, he is also a radio intelligence at the same time.
                        Who wrote the secret range?

                        He wrote from English. The meaning has not changed.
                        None of their lack of, but they reassured themselves hopes to make them supersonic.

                        Please.
                      18. 0
                        5 August 2016 17: 25
                        This means that the "stupid English" have invested almost a billion pounds on a "simple" plane. Something has changed?
                        These models have long been removed from service, why did it become secret?

                        Namely, in the presence of CVA-01 and the absence of LAV, it makes no sense to make Sea Harriers. We went in a circle.
                      19. 0
                        5 August 2016 17: 38
                        "Smart" Americans slapped a trillion into sawing a Soviet vertical with elements of stealth technology from the F22, it appeared in public 25 years after it. lol
                        Почему нет?

                        They were planned on CVA-01 if you read the English Wikipedia laughing you may have gone, but you didn’t take anyone away - most of the harriers were in the British Air Force and much earlier than they appeared in the English fleet.
                      20. +1
                        5 August 2016 18: 47
                        An example is not in cash, the Raptor in a series and in combat units, be Nimrod AEW.3 expensive, but it could still be combat-ready, explaining with the support of a national manufacturer, even if the development will be long. It could be accepted if there were high expectations from the program, but this is also not so. Americans are richer and can afford.

                        The naked theory at the time of experiments with VTOL aircraft and the selection of an air group was probably motivated by the need for minimal alterations of land and ship vehicles.
                      21. -1
                        5 August 2016 19: 30
                        Not to the cashier about the Raptor ... lol American Orion is worse.

                        HVACS and American ships are present, although usually on separate. By the way, again, not ours - English, and with a minimum of alterations.

                        The British had all subsonic deck aviation while they tried to mold the P.1154 supersonic SCVVP and designed the CVA-01 for it. That is, the CVA-01 was planned as a "VTOL carrier". laughing
                        When the British did not succeed, they bought a supersonic American F-4J and significantly altered it to F-4K, and instead of R.1154 they still planned to change Harrier, CVA-4, with the non-folding F-01, although he remained subsonic.

                        Just see the English wiki on CVA-01 laughing

                        Then they decided to better invest in modernizing the Needle and Arc-Royal for phantoms, and later, Hermes for the Harriers (ibid.), While work on another supersonic SCVVP P.1216 was going on (there is a separate article about it in the English Wikipedia), filling from which later went as the basis for the X-32, which allegedly "competed" with the X-35 (F-35, why wikipedia - on which here / here and so only the lazy does not specialize) in the JSF competition, which is the essence of the Soviet supersonic Yak, with ready-made technology invisibility taken from the F-22 (and it was stolen by Lockheed from another American company, which converted it back from the Soviet one). lol
                      22. 0
                        5 August 2016 20: 37
                        You will not please laughing

                        The Americans are rich, they have AV-8 only to support the Marines.

                        Well, what am I talking about? While there were theories (P.1154 interceptor, attack aircraft, land and sea, and even GDP) plans were being made, as it turned out that the fleet needed different vehicles exiting the program (1964) and immediately ordered 140 Phantoms for 4 AB ("Arc Royal" , "Eagle" and two CVA-01), in 1966 the CVA-01 was cut and the order was reduced to 48 Phantoms, and with the cancellation of the modernization of "Eagle" (1969) to 28.
                        All sorts of theories can be built, especially while the operation of the VTOL aircraft is limited to an experienced squadron.
                      23. 0
                        5 August 2016 22: 45
                        And what's the difference where they are assigned? They have the marines in the landless Afghanistan and fought in the landlocked Iraq. Same thing with Bosnia and Serbia.
                        In Vietnam, did not participate in landing operations. Everywhere except Vietnam, there were Harriers of the British Air Force and Navy

                        All P1154 are SCVVPs, none of this program came out, they just did not work with this "supersonic harrier" program, after which they ordered phantoms for both the Navy and the Air Force.
                        The experienced Air Force squadron was from Kestrelov, experience is no longer a theory. Harriers then served in the British Air Force for 10 years, and 8 years in the U.S. ILC before joining the English fleet.
                      24. 0
                        6 August 2016 09: 24
                        And what's the difference where they are assigned?

                        Large, no one set the task of organizing an air defense umbrella over them, as in the RAF (GR.Mk.1 ... Mk.9 attack aircraft / reconnaissance aircraft, tactical strike fighters, but not interceptors, i.e. infantry support, AIM -9 for self-defense). Why does RN need another attack aircraft on the deck of the far from rubber CVA-01, if there is a Buccaneer?
                      25. 0
                        6 August 2016 10: 05
                        When it was required, even GR.3 participated in air defense missions, which means he could, which means he was designed for this. The AV-8B has a radar. All Harrier-2s have a "fighter" cockpit protruding upward to improve rearward visibility.

                        You probably did not understand - the Buccaneer there should not have been the basis of the air wing, and the Phantoms were not supposed at all. Read through the commentary upstairs, CVA-01 was planned as a "VTOL carrier" P.1154 (supersonic) from which they naturally did not succeed.
                      26. 0
                        6 August 2016 10: 47
                        In the situation with GR.3, the British had no choice or ersatz, or nothing.
                        I realized that the plans were while there was hope for a double supersonic GDP interceptor, i.e. Until 1964, before the program was closed, the air group was to consist of horizontal take-off and landing aircraft.
                        That is, in practice, the fleet did not need a VTOL attack aircraft, at most, with the availability of funds, 12 Harriers will be based on the Hermes (if they do not decide in favor of helicopters or temporary ground based VTOL aircraft).
                      27. 0
                        6 August 2016 10: 59
                        They had a choice before that to make it so that it was well (except for visibility) suitable for fulfilling fighter functions.
                        In practice, then came in very handy.

                        All P1154s were supposed to be "runways". The plans were until predictably not broken off with the alteration of the Harrier engine into a supersonic one.
                      28. 0
                        6 August 2016 10: 59
                        They had a choice before that to make it so that it was well (except for visibility) suitable for fulfilling fighter functions.
                        In practice, then came in very handy.

                        All P1154s were supposed to be "runways". The plans were until predictably not broken off with the alteration of the Harrier engine into a supersonic one.
                      29. +1
                        6 August 2016 11: 57
                        After 1966, there was no choice, sooner or later the "Ark Royal" and "Eagle" would have gone to write-off and there would have been no aircraft carrying aircraft, except for the GDP, in RN.
                        All customers from those who had a choice (ILC or RAF) did not assign the tasks of organizing air defense to the VTOL aircraft.
                      30. 0
                        6 August 2016 12: 02
                        After 1966 until 1979 there were Phantoms

                        Well, then what would CVA-01, the carrier of these very SKVVP P.1154 defend themselves with? If there were no Phantoms on it until 1964?
                      31. -1
                        6 August 2016 12: 28
                        If again, and briefly - not under F-4 Phantom, this CVA-01 was planned in 1959-1964, but under 2-fly SKVVP R1154. England had no F-4 at that time, and the subsonic Buccaneers were planned on it since they were already (they already were).
                      32. 0
                        6 August 2016 12: 40
                        The withdrawal of the Arc Royal from the fleet is quite predictable, as evidenced by the purchase of 24 VTOL aircraft in 1975 for the fleet.

                        In theory, until 1964, R.1154, after, depending on the wishes of the fleet, only Phantoms (if the admirals considered possible only confrontation with the MRA of the USSR Navy), or any option by reducing the number of Phantoms and Bukanians (Crusader , "Mirage" -any) in the air group.
                      33. -2
                        6 August 2016 12: 56
                        Well, it was in 1975 and not in 1959-1964, and this is what he is now forecasting (AB served only 24g, less than the F-35B was made)

                        After - depending on the circumstances, P1154 did not work.
                        They considered it because they were not bothered by the Crusaders. only F-4. But with the advent of the Tu-22 and F-14, it is outdated.
                        To the east of Suez, they left, having surrendered everything to Australia and the Americans, gathered with Falkland, just the Argentines out of place followed them with a kick.
                      34. 0
                        6 August 2016 14: 19
                        This is a real step, not plans. Considering the story with the "control cruisers with a solid deck," all the admirals understood perfectly well, they did not manage to climb through the window through the door.

                        They still have purely auxiliary roles in marine TMV.
                      35. 0
                        6 August 2016 15: 32
                        They do not need flattery anywhere, they are already in the admiralty. The government decides only the budget issue and not its implementation.
                        The re-equipped armored "Hermes" is also a real step and not plans and it does not apply to "control cruisers with a solid deck" at all.

                        There can be no supporting roles in knocking out a naval strategic nuclear forces.
                        England itself, like the fleet, would have been protected from the Soviet bombers by coastal tornadoes
                      36. The comment was deleted.
                      37. 0
                        6 August 2016 15: 33
                        Nothing would have protected her from ballistic RSD
                      38. 0
                        6 August 2016 18: 12
                        Yes, yes, but in 1966 it also did not solve the budget issue about CVA-01. Maybe the Admiralty could spend small amounts at its discretion, but not the construction of the BNK.
                        "Hermes" did not have a regular air group at the beginning of the conflict, 800 squadron was intended for "Illastries", before that only experiments with flights of "Sea Harriers" were carried out on it.

                        RN can independently compete with the Soviet Navy? No? So auxiliary.
                        The radius of the Tornado interception is 533 / 555-1388 / 1833 km, this is not enough for the navy.
                      39. 0
                        6 August 2016 18: 55
                        French Navy could it?
                        Not decided, then not decided. There the airfields are Icelandic, Greenlandic, Norwegian, and not just Scottish.
                        The point is to build CVA-01 if the F-14 was not yet and the requirements for it were unknown, but they were burned with the P1154 (but new high-speed air defense projects promise) and the F-4 is already outdated.
                        Harrier subsonic and together with the F-4 could fight with difficulty. Too many ambiguities.
                        They pushed the reworked F-4 to what it was, and then it was completely out of date.
                        At the anti-submarine boundary, you could imagine something. On the contrary, in USN mine affairs, RN cannot do without it.
                      40. 0
                        7 August 2016 05: 44
                        What about the French Navy?
                        For 1988, the GR.1 Tornado was armed with 9 tactical aviation fighter squadrons, of which 7 were part of the English Air Force command in Europe and were deployed in Germany (9,14,17,21 at Bruggen airbase, 15,16,20 at Laarbruch airbase), 2 taie in the United Kingdom (27 and 617, Marem airbase), plus 45 combat training squadron of the combat use center (Honington) and one squadron of the joint Tornado crew training center in Cottensmore. The Tornado F.3 armed with 229 combat training and 29 fighter squadrons (Coningsby Air Base). The plans for the next 3 years equip the Tornado with 5 fighter and 1 reconnaissance squadrons. In total, the WB has exactly three combat squadrons with the Tornado GR.1 and F.3 for 1988. This is not enough.
                        At the time of the construction of CVA-01, the F-4 had a peak of popularity, in the United States Phantoms were written off later (1996) than in the United Kingdom (1992), and this was due to the end of the XB. In any case, CVA-01 in terms of basing any aircraft is better than LAV, and horizontal take-off and landing aircraft are better than VTOL.
                        At the turn of the PLO, the confrontation would not be limited to submarines, there both MRA and BNK would be involved, i.e., fulfilling a secondary task in the interests of NATO.
                      41. 0
                        7 August 2016 10: 13
                        GRs are not air defense interceptors.
                        There was no construction CVA-01 there was only design
                        Phantom is already outdated on the background of Tonado and F-14
                        And why then fussed with P1154 SKVVP under which (and not under F-4) this very CVA-01 was planned, and why did Argentina blow it off then?
                        Countering strategic nuclear forces is not secondary; the Soviet NK ballistic missile systems were not carried.
                      42. 0
                        7 August 2016 15: 15
                        For clarity.
                        The tornado-interceptor (F.2) first flew in 1979, the production car in 1984, the F-14 was put into service in 1974, i.e., two years after the possible delivery of the CVA-01, it was never the main deck machine , a highly specialized interceptor with extremely expensive weapons.
                        Because there was a "boom", they expected a lot from the VTOL aircraft, but received little. If the RN had a pair of normal aircraft carriers, Galtieri would have no doubts about the actions of England in the event of the capture of the islands, the probability of a conflict is reduced to zero.
                        They didn’t carry it, but they certainly took part in breaking through the boundaries of the PLO.
                      43. 0
                        7 August 2016 15: 39
                        For clarity, the Tornado suddenly came out of SKVVP when this SKVVP VJ-101E was not received, and it, like the F-14, is not highly specialized and both of them were basic.
                        The boom subsided from continuous failures in the West, but there were more than 830 subsonic Harriers and partly remained in service there in several countries, while the USSR also had 230 Jacob.

                        In Argentina, they watched the dismantling of the "Arc-Royal" in Scotland, and underestimating the harrier decided to go to war (although there was no longer a need for it because England was already leaving the Malvinas) only after the boilers were taken out of it.
                        F-4 flying with him, of course, Harriers would be helped, but with F-4 without them they would have been beaten, which means the island would not be recaptured.

                        Would participate - would receive from coastal aviation deployed along this anti-submarine line.
                      44. 0
                        6 August 2016 09: 45
                        All P1154 are SCVVPs, none of this program came out, they just did not work with this "supersonic harrier" program, after which they ordered phantoms for both the Navy and the Air Force.

                        Where in the text of the mention of R.1154 as part of the CVA-01 air group after 1964? According to the English Wiki, the composition is: 18 × Phantom FG.1; 18 × Buccaneer S.2; 4 × Gannet AEW. 3; 4 × Sea King HAS. 1; 2 × Wessex HAS. 1 (SAR), probably with 1 × Gannet COD. 4
                      45. -1
                        6 August 2016 10: 21
                        Well, before 1964, are there such references? The phantoms were bought and re-equipped because nothing came of the P.1154, they themselves continued to stubbornly fight against the wall with other projects of supersonic SCVVPs, until the Gorbachevites who destroyed the USSR were driven by the Soviet one.
          2. +3
            3 August 2016 19: 59
            Quote: strannik1985
            Andrey, many thanks for the article.

            You're welcome!
            Quote: strannik1985
            A small addition, the British had a modernization program Gannet AEW.3 (Gannet AEW.7) with the use of avionics E-2 Hokai.

            I heard about this, but I don’t know what they were going to modernize there, so I waved my hand. In general, by 1982, the E-2C itself could well have appeared on the deck of the English aircraft carrier.
            Quote: strannik1985
            About funds. Minus 3 AB type "Invinnsbl", minus the Nimrod AEW program (930 million pounds sterling by 1986), minus the VTOL program

            The funny thing is that I came across estimates of the conversion of Harriers to naval aircraft (that is, to Sea Harrier) as much as 85 million f.st. This is more than enough to build one aircraft carrier, and another will still remain :) But here the question is about the correctness of the numbers, of course
            1. 0
              3 August 2016 20: 37
              According to Hobbs, the CVA-01 hangar is 660 ft x 80ft (max) x 18ft (with two compartments of 19 ft each).

              The Admiralty Collegium formally approved the £ 58 million aircraft carrier decision in July 1963. Taking into account the cunning of the admirals for 0,8, they would push the second one, or they would keep the "Arc Royal" (commissioned in 1955, the cost of construction £ 21,5 million) in the ranks until it stops.
      3. 0
        3 August 2016 09: 58
        with a pirate badge on the keel, it looks especially good ... bully
    2. +5
      3 August 2016 09: 28
      Quote: V.ic
      If, yes, if only ... The history of the subjunctive mood does not have.

      That does not negate the need to draw conclusions from history. And they are always closely associated with "What if ..." We know that the British washed themselves in blood and at times their operation was hanging by a thread. What is the conclusion from this? Such that the fleet around VTOL aircraft is not very well suited for such tasks. What's the best fit? here you can't do without "If"
      1. +2
        3 August 2016 10: 49
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Such that the fleet around the VTOL aircraft is not well suited for such tasks.
        Good day, Andrey! VTOL aircraft, of course, cannot today fully replace the carrier-based ejection takeoff aircraft, but this does not mean that the VTOL aircraft does not have its own niche in armaments. As it makes no sense to oppose a helicopter to an aircraft, a VTOL aircraft can complement carrier-based aircraft on UDC or other ships, not necessarily strike aircraft carriers. The time will come when VTOL aircraft will be much more perfect, then we will "see", but for this we must not lose our best practices in order not to lag behind forever. As for the alternative history, yes, you need to think, think and analyze, but, in this case, you need to think for Argentina, not only Britain could do something and have better, but the Argentines.
        1. 0
          3 August 2016 11: 22
          Wasn't there a catapult on the Hermes before the springboard was placed on it?
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Hermes_(R12)
          the word "catapults" occurs three times

          And in Argentine https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veyntisinko_de_Mayo_(aviano
          sez)
          "who fought" there was also
        2. 0
          3 August 2016 12: 11
          And why VTOL, and not a tiltrotor, for example? In the beginning it makes sense to define the task, then the implementation options, and not vice versa. Nevertheless, at the beginning of the XNUMXth century, when aircraft already appeared, and much of their application had not yet been invented.
          1. 0
            3 August 2016 12: 18
            And why not both?
            1. +1
              3 August 2016 12: 54
              Because two designs are expensive for one spectrum of tasks. Organizational and technical measures are required for each type of equipment used. A tiltrotor and VTOL can occupy one niche; one will have to choose from economic and organizational-technical reasons.
              Or they may not occupy one niche. Everything is determined when there is already a task. Now this is the transfusion of their empty to empty. Maybe the third type of technique is better.
              Of course, we have a country on the map with almost unlimited resources for military needs, but it’s not very smart for the rest to orient themselves on it.
              1. 0
                3 August 2016 13: 04
                Why two "task spectrum"? Tiltroplanes are much slower, and by definition cannot be supersonic. But as a transport, PLO and AWACS are better. As shtomoviks and fighters are better than SCVVP.
                And how will operating and production costs be affected by the same large park only from only one type of aircraft and helicopters, which SKVVP tasks and tasks of convertibles cannot solve?
                1. 0
                  3 August 2016 22: 56
                  But for example, tiltrotors and high-speed helicopters can solve the problems of conventional helicopters completely, it’s obvious ... why not save on ordinary helicopters, which are oddly more complicated, and therefore more expensive than high-speed ones?
          2. The comment was deleted.
  3. avt
    +2
    3 August 2016 08: 18
    I understood why Andrew wrote an article!
    But if the battleship had been sent to OO aircraft carriers - alas, nothing good came of this.
    Blasphemer! On the holy armored encroached! laughing For a long time, the campaign with Oleg did not throw comments, and so I decided to conduct a spiritualistic session to call Kaptsov. At the expense of a full-fledged carrier
    At the same time, the Phantoms and Buccaneers would easily trample the entire Argentine air control system, together with air defense, in the frozen Falkland soil,
    If memory serves - the Angles quite successfully used "Buccaneers" in the "Desert Storm", from the ground naturally. They held on to them until the glider was completely worn out. A cool looking machine of purely English architecture - you can't confuse it with anyone, but extremely successful and reliable. Really a bomber.
    1. +3
      3 August 2016 09: 36
      The seance was clearly a success.
      The only doubt regarding the section with the battleship is that near the Argentinean coast and infrastructure, Argentinean aviation and its fleet would be much more efficient than at maximum range. Thus, the risk of unacceptable losses when attempting a disarming strike, and one also needs to prove that such a principle is possible, would be prohibitive.
    2. 0
      3 August 2016 10: 03
      England had armored AVs, Sinano didn’t help much either, but it’s better than flying from a big flat barrel with aviation gasoline.
  4. 0
    3 August 2016 08: 21
    I agree, if there was, then the British had a "real" aircraft carrier, yes, everything would have ended much earlier and not so dramatically.
    1. 0
      3 August 2016 09: 50
      The author again does not like VTOL and proceeds from the fact that AB and UDC are supposedly a panacea for all ills.
      Compared to a coastal airfield, an aircraft carrier is too easy to hit; it simply cannot be entered into the range of strong aircraft of the BO, just like large landing ships packed to the brim with marines.

      Quote: Monster_Fat
      I agree, if there was, then the British had a "real" aircraft carrier, yes, everything would have ended much earlier and not so dramatically.


      Of course, all this would not have hurt (like the Lebanese battleship), but without the Harriers the British would have simply been chopped up there - Phantom and Bukanir are not able to fight the Mirage ... Without the use of a nucleus at Argentine airfields, the American fleet would not have been able to cope there, especially if the Argentines had time to finish building an air force base near Stanley on the islands (and then the "liberation" would lose all meaning, since then there would be no one to hold a recent referendum on the islanders would like to be with England). lol

      If there were no Harriers there, the Argentines would have flown to the islands as for a holiday, would not have allowed the landing at all (a large landing craft packed with infantry without tiltrotors and SVPs would have to come close to the island coast, which is within its radius) or conducted reconnaissance and guidance with impunity, and they themselves destroyed the British light manpower that landed on helicopters from a height ... In real history, on the contrary, the British first did not allow Argentina's PLO aircraft to fly, which led to the sinking of the Belgrano, then they carried out the Argentine BO, which consisted of ATGMs thrown by helicopters, small ships across the strait, and off-road in jeeps, they fought with enemy aircraft (when they tried to fight them, or when the British could catch up with them), and then supported their ground troops with aviation, as a result they suffered much smaller losses and recaptured the islands.
      1. +4
        3 August 2016 09: 56
        Quote: Simpsonian
        Aircraft carrier in comparison with the coastal airfield is too easy to hit

        Why didn’t the British aircraft carriers hit? :)
        Quote: Simpsonian
        but without the Harriers the British would have been simply chopped up there - Phantom and Bukanir are not able to fight the Mirage ...

        Firstly - more than capable of Phantom, BVB over the Falklands was not. And secondly - Mirages could stand on the deck of the British :)
        Quote: Simpsonian
        In real history, on the contrary, the British at first did not allow Argentina's PLO aircraft to fly, which led to the sinking of the Belgrano

        And again, fantasy went. Angichans did not fly between the Falklands and the mainland, and the Argentinean PLO did not fly where Belgrano died
        1. 0
          3 August 2016 10: 20
          AB did not climb close to the shore, and Harrier, which was superior in terms of maneuverability, didn’t let this happen, but it was still close to that, since there were few of them. Therefore, dear Hermes was away from the islands, Invincible as a jump airfield closer. Then Atlanik Kozuey crawled up (of the same type as Conveyor but with a springboard) and was used for forward-based patrols and for their refueling.

          The Phantom is never able to fight the Mirage; in Vietnam, without the MiG-21 Crusaders, they broke it only once, exceeding them 2,5 times in numbers and with an element of surprise. And here England would be able to put much less phantoms (and even ship-based) against a much larger number of Mirages laughing

          If there wasn’t a BVB in southerly Atlanika, then in what battles were more than 20 Argentine planes shot down while the British did not have medium-range missiles? wassat

          fantasy article ... The British mostly flew on patrol between the islands and the mainland, and Belgrano was sunk in their radius, when the PLO could use only helicopters and without going beyond the umbrella of ship's air defense.
          1. +1
            3 August 2016 12: 43
            I’ll ask the question differently - How could Mirages prevent a missile attack from Phantoms with external target designation and superior speed?
            The experience of the conflict, in my opinion, indicates the defenselessness of the Mirages in front of air-to-air missiles used by the British.
            Maneuverability can help, but if it no longer helps against missile A from Harier, how will it help against the same missile A from Phantom?
            1. 0
              3 August 2016 12: 56
              No way - they themselves would have found, attacked and shot down even with a balance of forces of 1: 1, and Argentina had more Mirages. External targeting was the opposite of Argentina if they did not know, and better than Gannet.
              Harrier can fall into the tail of the Mirage, a mirage may fall into the tail of the Phantom, but not vice versa. For a reliable defeat, the rocket must be launched in the tail, in the front hemisphere it captures the target only from the closest distance, and it is much easier to evade the launched one.
              1. 0
                3 August 2016 14: 10
                At the beginning of the cycle, Andrei noted successful counter attacks of Mirages. Just one of the troubles of the Argentines was, based on the materials of the cycle, in the impossibility of defeating the Harriers in a head-on collision, but not vice versa.
                Having the superiority in detecting the adversary stipulated in the article, the superiority in speed, the chances of mirages seem to be minimal.
                The actual numerical superiority of the Argentines is doubtful because of the work at the maximum range and lower frequency of departures, which was justified in the cycle.
                1. 0
                  3 August 2016 14: 27
                  The case is one or two, more than 20 aircraft shot down
                  The superiority in detection was among the Argentines. Only the Argnetins had medium-range missiles - they never hit them. The British were forced to constantly fly on patrols in order to prevent the Argeninians from suddenly breaking into landing ships and aircraft carriers from three to five directions, the Argentines flying from safe airfields did not do this, hence the difference in the number of sorties.
                  1. 0
                    3 August 2016 15: 04
                    So you are sure that it is impossible to suppress a stationary radar station by the forces of an aircraft carrier?
                    And you are absolutely sure that the Gunnets after that are not able to provide superiority in detection.
                    You forget that when you change one basic parameter, the whole add-in of events with its participation will change. Andrew conducted a simulation. Praise be to him, and you are trying to dispute the model without taking into account the changed add-in of events, as if you could replace the Hurricanes with Phantoms or Mirages at any time.
                    Andrei’s models are not perfect, they have flaws and understatements, but each of them must be evaluated as a whole, completing or proposing its own, but not directly substituting events that occur simultaneously in real life into an already changed model of reality.
                    1. 0
                      3 August 2016 15: 14
                      It is impossible to defend the forces of the AB from superior enemy forces in an attack (not even on the coastal position) by their AWACS, and reality without any models showed this twice a year later ...
                      1. 0
                        3 August 2016 15: 25
                        A year later, if I correctly understood what kind of conflict we were talking about, the conditions were completely different. We do not consider the British attack on mainland Argentina. I expressed doubt about this possibility above.
                      2. 0
                        3 August 2016 15: 34
                        The conditions would have seemed much more favorable - during the intervention in Lebanon, in addition to the English and Spanish harriers and French and American ABs with F-14/18 with a battleship, there were also Turkish and Israeli airfields with F-15/16.
                        The English squadron just dangled east of the islands, if AB was damaged, no one would have survived, everything would depend only on luck and the mercy of the Argentines
              2. +2
                3 August 2016 15: 12
                Quote: Simpsonian
                No way - they themselves would have found, attacked and shot down even with a balance of forces of 1: 1, and Argentina had more Mirages. External targeting was the opposite of Argentina if they did not know, and better than Gannet.

                And what types of aircraft equipped for early warning of air targets. did Argentina have? Not surface, but airborne.
                Quote: Simpsonian
                A mirage can fall into the tail of the Phantom, but not vice versa.

                Taking into account the fuel supply for 10 minutes of patrolling, the battle between the Mirages and the Phantoms will look like this: as soon as the Mirage maneuvered the foe - and that's it, it's time to go home. Moreover, to exit the battle, fuel is also needed, because you will have to leave with the afterburner (otherwise the Phantoms will simply kill the departing ones).
                1. 0
                  3 August 2016 15: 22
                  There were a few. They are not needed to detect someone else's AWACS; it shines itself. The one who first turned on the radar station first discovered himself.
                  The battle takes place and took place much faster than in 10min. Mirages would have knocked down Phantoms almost as quickly as the Mirages had knocked down the Harriers.
                  1. +1
                    3 August 2016 15: 57
                    Quote: Simpsonian
                    There were a few. They are not needed to detect someone else's AWACS; it shines itself. The one who first turned on the radar station first discovered himself.

                    What does AWACS have to do with it? After all, it was about "Phantoms":
                    Quote: Simpsonian
                    No way - they themselves would have found, attacked and shot down even with a balance of forces of 1: 1, and Argentina had more Mirages. External targeting was the opposite of Argentina if they did not know, and better than Gannet.

                    Moreover, "Phantoms" have a normal external control center that sees air targets. And in the case of "mirages", the CU sees only what shines.
                    So without turning on the radar, the "Phantoms" have a complete picture of suitable "mirages", and the "mirages" have only an AWACS aircraft hanging somewhere there.
                    1. -1
                      3 August 2016 16: 14
                      If it’s about Phantoms, what does Vietnam seem to have, where they were roughly equivalent to Mirages and inferior in number to the MiG-21, and even without one radar RSD?

                      Because of the "features of the radar," the attacking Mirages will see this external control center first, and in addition to maneuverability, numerical superiority, unlike the Vietnamese, would be on their side.
                      If Argentina didn’t have its own AWACS (and it had it on the contrary), when approaching the AWACS detection zone, mirages turn on their radar and see phantoms themselves, then knock them down
                      Because a phantom can be opposed to a mirage only if there are more than three times more, which means that an attacking wave of 15 aircraft must be counterbalanced by a permanent active AWACS patrol of at least 45 cars, and so many of England would not have been there. Now multiply this figure by 3-4 because the patrol is constant - it had so many F-4s at all, especially AB under them.
                      1. +1
                        3 August 2016 17: 45
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        If it’s about Phantoms, what does Vietnam seem to have, where they were roughly equivalent to Mirages and inferior in number to the MiG-21, and even without one radar RSD?

                        EMNIP, in Vietnam MiGs attacked from ambushes and were guided from the ground according to survey radars. In the ocean at the Falklands appeared folds of terrain, radar and control centers IA?
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        This is an external control center due to the "features of the radar" attacking Mirages will see the first

                        Who will they see? The only emitting radar is on the AWACS aircraft, the "phantoms" are according to data from AWACS and TSUNIA.
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        If Argentina did not have its own AWACS (and it had it on the contrary)

                        What kind?
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        Because a phantom can be opposed to a mirage only if there are more than three times more, which means that an attacking wave of 15 aircraft must be counterbalanced by a permanent active AWACS patrol of at least 45 cars, and so many of England would not have been there.

                        What for? The DRLO's task consists precisely in the early detection of targets. As long as the detected targets reach the position of the AWAC, the forces of the ATS and the reserve (scramble) raised from the deck will already be withdrawn from them.
                      2. -1
                        3 August 2016 18: 20
                        From ambushes, using the terrain in Vietnam, they attacked mainly the MiG-17, and the MiG-21 was extremely rare.

                        And they don’t need anything else, there will not be phantoms there - only the AWAC itself will bring down lol

                        DRLO such that was. In the reality. And which, in reality, was not there among the British.

                        The detected "targets" at a speed of two speeds of sound will reach the AWACS, which even has no sound at half the speed of sound, these Hokai were needed to warn of an attack on the order of subsonic Tu-16s, to combat these bombers an F-4 Navy interceptor was made, and for battles with maneuverable Mirages laughing
                      3. 0
                        3 August 2016 23: 10
                        Then, when the supersonic Tu-22 and even the "M" flew, in order to push back the line of interception, simple F-4 deck interceptors with the main AiM-7 weapon in the American fleet were replaced by F-14 loitering at a distance with more long-range 5 AIM flywheels -54. At the same time, they abandoned the Crusaders and partly the A-5, since the Tomkets were maneuverable and with a long range. Then the F-18 was added with the F-18Super - all the same, from tactical aircraft, with the already appeared MiG-23 fighters, only the last F-14D release of 1994 could compete, but it was better to forget about the Su-33 or MiG-29 ...
                      4. 0
                        4 August 2016 10: 59
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        And they don’t need anything else, there will not be phantoms there - only the AWAC itself will bring down

                        Let there be "phantoms" there - quietly patrolling on the MV without broadcasting and directed from TsUNIA. Here are just "mirages" they will not see until the last, because all that they see and what they report is the radar AWACS shining on the air. And, tempted by an attack on the "lone AWACS", they will fly into exactly the trap.
                        There is still a difference between "not seeing" and "actually not". smile
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        DRLO such that was. In the reality.

                        Once again - what type of AWACS did the arg have?
                        And then, after all, the Tu-95RC can also be called AWACS - it’s only useless against airplanes.
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        The detected "targets" at a speed of two speeds of sound will reach the AWACS, which does not even have half the speed of sound

                        To do this, the "mirages" will have to go about 400 km in supersonic speed.
                      5. 0
                        5 August 2016 12: 19
                        They will be - they will be seen when approaching at any height and knocked down, because Phantoms can’t fight Mirages.

                        What difference does it make if the Englishmen didn’t? Better than Gannet, which could be lol

                        Do not have to. Like the Syrian MiG-23, the B-707 was not shot down.
      2. +1
        3 August 2016 10: 05
        And where is the thesis about the fact that the phantom can not fight with a mirage, and even with external target designation?
        1. +1
          3 August 2016 11: 05
          Potoyu that he could not fight with the MiG-21, and the Mirage was even more equipotent and had then one RSD.
          1. +1
            3 August 2016 15: 03
            Quote: Simpsonian
            Potoyu that he could not fight with the MiG-21, and the Mirage was even more equipotent and had then one RSD.

            The problem is that the Argentine "mirages" worked at the limit of range. So for them, dogfight was like death - corny there might not be enough fuel to return to base.
            1. 0
              3 August 2016 15: 10
              Why, they decided on the BVB, as much as two times. Daggers and even more until they quickly figured out that without options.
  5. +3
    3 August 2016 09: 04
    Wait!) I really thought what it seemed to me when Andrei promised to paint an "alternative".
    Like the rest of the series, everything is great.
    But nevertheless, agreeing as a whole about the battleship, I will note in defense of Kaptsov.
    As I understand it, one of the main arguments in favor of using a battleship against airfields was not so much the power of artillery as the invulnerability during shelling. In the article, one of the counterarguments is the possibility of using other artillery platforms. However, they will obviously be destroyed by aircraft. Therefore, this topic is not fully disclosed and will still pop up.
    In this case, it would be necessary to consider the possibility of a battleship being sunk by torpedoes from a submarine or other carriers that could be used offshore. The question of the possibility of using artillery while receiving damage from bombs and missiles that the Argentines possessed also remains open.
  6. 0
    3 August 2016 09: 07
    The conclusion is simple. A catapult aircraft carrier is a keen eye and a long arm, without it blood and sweat. A battleship would be nice, but not necessary, for 1000 pound bombs will replace 381 mm. shells.
  7. +1
    3 August 2016 09: 50
    The article is clearly crude - the author began for health (the declared alternative scenario of the Falkland War of the 1982 of the year), and finished for the repose (the fictitious advantages of the aircraft carrier of the 2016 model of the year).

    As a result, we have another replication of the urban legend about the alleged possibility of barrage of a carrier-based AWACS aircraft as much as 300 km from the aircraft carrier - "in the direction of the greatest threat." Ay, author, how to determine the direction of the threat of attack by cruise missiles launched from a submarine on the high seas?

    So the oil painting is seen - "Hawkeye" within a radius of 400 km and 300 km from the aircraft carrier regularly shines with a radar on one side of the AUG order, and at this time, a flock of supersonic anti-ship missiles flies up at an extremely low altitude on the other side, which will be detected by the "Hawkeye" only 100 km away from the aircraft carrier. Here his admiral will be delighted with such an unexpected event!

    Even funnier will be the situation with the participation in the attack of two submarines, one of which is located on the sides of the AWACS aircraft and launches false targets in the form of hundreds of small and cheap cruise missiles with an EPR equal to anti-ship missiles. As a result, all anti-aircraft missiles and AUG aircraft will be withdrawn 300 km from the direction of a real attack, and supersonic anti-ship missiles will find the AUG sailors in a "no pants" position.

    You can, of course, be based on the 10-20-30 aircraft carrier AWACS and place them in a circle at a distance 1000 km from the aircraft carrier, but then what is the guarantee that the submarine will not launch a salvo within the circle? And why then in general an aircraft carrier - proudly cut through a wave like the elusive Joe with zero strike potential worth 200 billion bucks (including carrier-based aircraft, security ships and anti-aircraft missiles)?

    Alternatives have to come to terms with reality - against scrap (RCC combined with false goals), AUG has no reception.
    1. +2
      3 August 2016 10: 08
      Warrant bypass and back attack, submarine attack with cruise missiles - are we sure about the Falkland conflict?
      1. 0
        3 August 2016 11: 12
        not exactly, but the topic is interesting ... in fact, aviation almost 100% destroys nuclear submarines in advance as it is detected and not by AWACS but by PLO planes (and satellites) that fly further than most anti-ship missiles
      2. 0
        3 August 2016 13: 12
        This is a generalization of the alternative history of the Falkland War in terms of the role of aircraft carriers, which the author cites at the end of his article.
        1. +1
          3 August 2016 13: 58
          Well, explain from where in the alternative, for the British military-industrial complex, the history of the Falklands War, Argentina striking at maximum ranges is capable of bypassing the Hawkeye, detecting an aircraft carrier or launching a missile strike using an absent missile submarine.
          Maybe you are planning to write a counter article "What could have been in service with Argentina and what would happen to the British then?"
          1. 0
            3 August 2016 14: 14
            Why would she go around him? She will knock him down, it can be seen from the bottom, he is slow-moving, and as Phantoms without even accepting the battle, she won’t be able to escape. And this will continue until they quickly end.
            In the arsenal of Argentina could be MiG-23 capable of flying from the existing short lane without tricks, or the Su-17/22 flying at all like the Harrera from the ground. If they were based by Argentina in the Malvins, no English fleet would ever have approached it. If approached, they would simply fly over the harrier patrols and destroy all the English ships!
            The Syrians actually shot down two Avaks in 1983-84, one Hawkeye from the S-200, one B-707 from the MiG-23, even an escort from the F-14 could not do anything ...
            1. -1
              3 August 2016 15: 49
              Quote: Simpsonian
              Why would she go around him? She will knock him down, it can be seen from the bottom, he is slow-moving, and as Phantoms without even accepting the battle, she won’t be able to escape. And this will continue until they quickly end.

              And how to shoot AWACS? P-33? Or KS-172? smile
              While the fighter will reach the launch range on AWACS, a patrol group will already be pointing at it.
              Quote: Simpsonian
              The Syrians actually shot down two Avaks in 1983-84, one Hawkeye from the S-200, one B-707 from the MiG-23, even an escort from the F-14 could not do anything ...

              Yeah ... they generally shot down more planes than they did in the Israeli Air Force.
              1. 0
                3 August 2016 15: 58
                The same as the Phantoms. A wave of no less than 15 vehicles would go to AWACS with a guard link. love

                Yeah, yeah ... it was like American planes. At least the Israelis did not have Avax based on the Boeing-707. Hokai rented out.
                1. +1
                  3 August 2016 17: 47
                  Quote: Simpsonian
                  The same as the Phantoms. A wave of no less than 15 vehicles would go to AWACS with a guard link.

                  Gorgeous. At the sight of such a crowd, AWACS rolls into the rear under the umbrella of the ship's air defense systems, and fighters in the air and raised from the deck move towards the "cleansing group".
                  1. 0
                    3 August 2016 18: 20
                    AWACS will not have time to go anywhere (these two did not have time), if it turns out that there is also a rear, then by the next and the same wave this "rear" is carried out, first of all, AB, about the presence of which Avax should. warn your AV from afar. lol In order to ensure that AB (not its AWACS) is guaranteed to protect itself from such an attacking group in the air in the expected direction of its strike, there are constantly at least 4 times as many planes (excluding the duty links on the deck), and not just Phantoms but paired with maneuverable Cruzaders, which England simply did not have any. laughing
                    1. 0
                      4 August 2016 11: 03
                      Quote: Simpsonian
                      AWACS will not have time to go anywhere (these two did not have time), if it turns out that there is also a rear, then by the next and the same wave this "rear" is carried out, first of all, AB, about the presence of which Avax should. warn your AV from afar

                      Are we still talking about the conflict between Great Britain and Argentina?
                      Because long-range air defense systems, long-range airborne air defense systems and massive fighter attacks at their ultimate range are no longer Argentina, but some kind of USSR.
                      Quote: Simpsonian
                      In order to ensure that AB (not its AWACS) is guaranteed to protect itself from such an attacking group in the air in the expected direction of its strike, constantly at least 4 times more aircraft (excluding duty units on deck),

                      Or, the AB needs to move the line of detecting air targets at a range that ensures their interception at a safe distance from the position of "watch in the air and on deck". What is an AWACS aircraft for?
                      1. 0
                        5 August 2016 12: 12
                        Argenina had AWACS there; the UK did not. It would be - they would not have time, like the Great American, which the Syrians shot down.

                        There is no such boundary in operations against supersonic coastal fighter aircraft in a non-nuclear war.
                        A nuclear carrier is lighter than a carrier ...
                        The safety of American aircraft carriers (60-100 sorties per day) in the Gulf of Tonkin against the few Vietnamese MiG-21s (there were never many more than 20 pieces) was mainly ensured by airplanes flying for cover from the Air Force base from Da Nang (making more than 2500 sorties per day) . Yes
          2. -1
            3 August 2016 16: 02
            Once again - the author at the end of the article (and I in my commentary) does not speak about the Falklands, Britain and Argentina, but about the aircraft carriers and the means of dealing with them in general.

            I don’t plan to write anything, because there is no intrigue in the 1982 year - external target designation from Soviet satellites of radar intelligence broadcasted to the General Staff of Argentina, plus several Soviet diesel-electric submarines with anti-ship missiles on board leased to the Argentine Navy, and British aircraft carriers are proudly sinking .
    2. +2
      3 August 2016 14: 44
      Quote: Operator
      As a result, we have another replication of the urban legend about the alleged possibility of barrage of a carrier-based AWACS aircraft as much as 300 km from the aircraft carrier - "in the direction of the greatest threat"

      This is not a legend, but the usual practice of the US Navy
      Quote: Operator
      Au, the author, how to determine in the open sea the direction of the threat of attack by cruise missiles launched from a submarine?

      The operator, firstly, does not need spherical horses in a vacuum. I wrote about the Falklands, there is no ocean, no missile submarines. Secondly, in fact, only in a spherical vacuum can missile submarines attack an order from any radius of 360 degrees. Learn at your leisure how the US AUG was going to unfold against the USSR - you will learn a lot of new things, at the same time greatly reduce the area of ​​the RCC approach. Already if only because the aircraft carrier does not fight on its own - it is part of the Navy and the Air Force where there are both SOSUS and SLCA Sentry, and many other means of monitoring the air and sea situation, which he, the aircraft carrier, qualitatively enhances.
      Thirdly, supersonic missiles are not low-flying, they go at a very high altitude and are easily detected by both radar and passive means of airplanes such as Growler. If there is a threat of a missile attack from an unknown side - who's stopping the suspension of the patrol right above the warrant? The detection of anti-ship missiles in 400-450 km is guaranteed.
      Quote: Operator
      Even funnier will be the situation with the participation of two submarines in the attack, one of which is located on the sides of the AWACS aircraft and launches false targets in the form of hundreds of small and cheap cruise missiles with EPR equal to RCC. As a result, all anti-aircraft missiles and AUG planes will be withdrawn for 300 km from the direction of the real attack.

      Your ability to give non-existent weapons to the nuclear submarines simply touches me. I’ll play your game - as soon as a real rocket salvo is detected, hundreds of inflatable boats are fired from an aircraft carrier, which simulate EPR and the signature of war ships with 100% accuracy. RCCs gobbled up into the milk ...
      1. -2
        3 August 2016 16: 34
        Do not mix God's gift (objective reality) and scrambled eggs (window dressing at American AUG exercises) - no admiral has yet been able to determine the direction of the RCC attack from the submarine on the high seas. Therefore, the whole assertion that the AWACS aircraft will always be in the direction of a missile attack on the AUG is nothing more than naivety.

        "The aircraft carrier is a part of the Navy", "SOSUS is available", "AWACS Sentry", etc. - why launch so many common places at once. And what, our nuclear submarines are no longer part of the Navy or SOSUS has not yet ordered to live for a long time (due to the inability to detect submarines of the latest generations) or the number of ground-based AWACS aircraft is rubber (then why are deck-based AWACS aircraft).

        Your ends don't meet - this is called the spherical cone in a vacuum laughing

        The fact of the matter is that the main place of the "Khokaev" patrol is the center of the AUG order with a radio horizon of up to 450 km. But the detection range of targets within this radio horizon directly depends on the RCS of the targets. Cruise missiles with an RCS of 0,1 square meters are detected by the Hokai at a range of no more than 150 km. So trim your sturgeon.

        And if we add several hundred small-sized aerial false targets (the number of which is almost equal to the ammunition of the ship's anti-aircraft missiles) to several dozen anti-aircraft missiles, then the air defense of the AUG will "be tortured to swallow dust" (C).

        And do not scare the hedgehog with a famous subject - modern cruise missiles with AFAR are aimed at the contour of the ship, and not at different tweeters and rattles in the form of inflatable rafts with corner reflectors and gas burners, even if there are hundreds of them in the order.

        As a result, the crew of the Premier League will be gambling, looking at the free fireworks from anti-aircraft missile explosions over the horizon, trying to bring down every false air target.

        PS Who told you that supersonic anti-ship missiles cannot fly at extremely low altitude?
        1. +2
          3 August 2016 17: 26
          Quote: Operator
          Therefore, the whole assertion that the AWACS aircraft will always be in the direction of a missile attack on the AUG is nothing more than naivety

          :))) You came up with this "postulate", not me. It is you who are firmly convinced that the main air threat to the AUG comes from the submarine, not me, and not the American admirals. Therefore, in your reality, in order to deploy patrols in the direction of the main air threat, you need to guess the location of the submarine.
          Well, the Americans were much more afraid of the domestic MRA and were careful first of all from it.
          Quote: Operator
          Do not mix God's gift (objective reality) and fried eggs (window dressing at the teachings of American AUG)

          Do not mix :)) Explore the sudden appearance of American PUGs off our shores. Maybe then the desire to fantasize in the style of "the bottom of the submarine is on the left, the second on the right"
          Quote: Operator
          The fact of the matter is that the main loitering place of "Khokaev" is the center of the AUG order with a radio horizon of up to 450 km.

          I repeat - the Americans disagree with you. Once Again - Explore US AUG Deployment! am
          A simple example. Two AB unfold off the coast of Norway. Where can the long-range anti-ship missiles come from, well, even taking into account the fact that the Soviet submarines could deploy anywhere in advance? From the Norwegian coastline, where does the thread come from the Kolsokgo peninsula or from the Baltic? Nothing of the kind, they will be spotted 20 times when flying over Finland / Sweden / Norway. Total of 360 degrees remains good if 180. From the North Sea? Nonsense, there the air is controlled both from England and again from Norway and from the mainland. From the Iceland-England area? Yeah, there’s just the SOSUS district. it remains ... what? Yes, almost nothing: the sector from the Bear to Greenland. But then it is elementarily blocked by a single air patrol.
          This is an example, for the rest of the theaters - if you yourself mean the gyrus to strain it up.
          Quote: Operator
          And do not scare the hedgehog with a famous subject - modern cruise missiles with AFAR are aimed at the contour of the ship

          Congratulations :)) a similar design in EW conditions will not come to anything at all, because there is nothing else, but it is obviously impossible to perform target selection in geometry under such conditions.
          Quote: Operator
          Who told you that supersonic anti-ship missiles cannot fly at extremely low altitude?

          They can ... about 100 kilometers.
          1. -1
            3 August 2016 20: 18
            Your confidence that the Americans have always and everywhere feared only the Soviet Naval Missile Aviation, is not childish.

            Look at the map - AUG deployed off the Norwegian coast has a deep-sea azimuthal sector of possible directions for RCC attacks from submarines larger than 180 degrees (limited to the west by Greenland and eastern Norway) plus a deep-sea sector in 60 between Iceland and Ireland . Total 240 degrees.

            And yes - why did you remove from consideration the possibility of attacking this AOG with cruise missiles launched from the ships of the Baltic Fleet through the territory of Finland, Sweden and Norway - another 90 degrees in azimuth (at low altitude, with an envelope around the terrain - World War III, after all) .

            And here SOSUS: it was dismantled for a long time, and the new submarines are not like SOSUS - the sonars of the security ships themselves are not heard at point blank range.

            And forget about the air patrols of anti-submarine aircraft - at a depth they don’t hear anything, but the trick is different: while the American AOG (illuminated by space and over-the-horizon radars) will reach the shores of Norway in a special period, the domestic submarines will secretly go to the shores of Greenland (on the flank) and Ireland (to the rear).

            An AFAR cannot be jammed with interference - the direction to a point source of interference is ignored programmatically. At the same time, the contour of the ship with a size of at least a hundred meters remains perfectly visible to the GOS RCC.

            PS This is good, then you learned about the ability of supersonic anti-ship missiles to fly at low altitude, now it remains to get acquainted with the range of such a flight laughing
  8. -1
    3 August 2016 09: 52
    A lot of letters, not mastered ...
    In the end, the result is not summed up.
  9. 0
    3 August 2016 10: 07
    Thank you for the article. There remained 1 unplanned topic, if the Argentines had guessed to drop 20-30 tanks in advance instead of wheeled squalor - the British would have thrown them into the sea or not.
    1. 0
      3 August 2016 11: 09
      would gouge them with their ATGMs or with harriers from a 30mm cannon and NURS into the roof, they could stand by the standing and Paveway, since they spent them on guns and bunkers
  10. Riv
    0
    3 August 2016 10: 58
    If yes, if only
    Yes mushrooms would grow in a mouth -
    So it would not be a mouth
    A real garden.

    The article recalls the games of Peter the Third with tin soldiers. Divorce guard, all for real, except that small and not alive. The object of the guard is a gallows with a hanging mouse. If there were more soldiers, it would be possible for them to build toy barracks and put them to bed at night.
    What's the point in all this speculation? All the same, you will not become an admiral, and Sea Wolfe will not be allocated for your personal use. The latter, by the way, did not shoot well just because it was new. Be sure: the British have already taken into account the mistakes and made conclusions.
  11. +1
    3 August 2016 12: 38
    Well, the article is clear. "If my grandmother had .... she would be a grandfather.

    Andrei, I was scampering about "Alternative History", I watched your "Harriers" there. Did you post this article there too, or did you start with mulberries?

    I really liked the "Vanguard" against the background of Gibraltar in the figure at the beginning of the article. I didn't have such a picture. Downloaded.
    1. 0
      3 August 2016 14: 50
      Quote: King, just king
      Andrei, I was scampering about "Alternative History", I watched your "Harriers" there. Did you post this article there too, or did you start with mulberries?

      First here, then there. Here you can’t upload what was already printed elsewhere
  12. 0
    3 August 2016 13: 52
    why not arrange a little brain game, and try to answer questions - what if ...:
    (...)
    2) Would the British at the Falklands have a battleship?

    British Web designer Andrew Shoeman did not disappear in the dungeons of MI5 and still reached the Queen ... laughing
    1. 0
      3 August 2016 14: 42
      and what did he want from her?
      1. +2
        3 August 2016 15: 05
        Quote: Simpsonian
        and what did he want from her?

        Convincing the naval and parliament not to cut the Vanguard, of course! Because in twenty years Britain will be at war with Argentina. smile
        1. -1
          3 August 2016 15: 17
          Well, I would buy from Argentina "Belgrano" or change to one of the Invincibles
  13. +6
    3 August 2016 14: 21
    Well, we got to the hypothetical "what would happen if" ... This is an exciting activity and, as promised, I will tell you what happened when we first "played" the squadron led by "Kiev" for the British, and then in the same squad for Argentina ...
    And in both cases it turned out quite interesting. For "balance" the ship group took the same as part of 1 cruiser pr 1143, 3 BOD pr 61, and 4 patrols pr 1135 - i.e. notoriously weaker than actually involved on both sides. (well, for the purity of the experiment, they did not consider the landing operation, and the actions of the fleet were reduced to the possibility of providing / preventing it ...)

    The option "for Argentina" turned out to be quite funny ... it turned out that Britain could practically oppose nothing to the approach and attack of our ship group. There is nothing stupid ... There are no long-range anti-ship missiles, the ability of a dozen subsonic Harriers to break through the air defense of such an order is estimated at negative. The only thing that can theoretically be opposed is the action of the nuclear submarine, but with such a density of anti-submarine weapons, this is also a hypothetical probability ... Moreover, as soon as the group approaches the British fleet, there is practically nothing to repel the blow of the heavy anti-ship missiles of the Basalt complex. With further rapprochement, everything that still keeps afloat will be picked up by the "Trumpets" and the 38e operating in the already clear sky ... destruction of superstructures with massive fires is guaranteed.

    The "for Britain" option is more complicated, primarily due to the need to ensure constant radar patrol. At the same time, we are guaranteed to get the concentration of air attacks on the ships of this patrol. On the other hand, Argentina also does not have long-range anti-ship missiles ... and the possibility of attacks on small and highly protected targets (such as our TFRs) is not so much ... Again, etc. 1143 was able to work as a CIUS connection, receiving data not only from its own Radar station ... Of course, the Yaks could not work as full-fledged air defense fighters, but at the same time they had one considerable + in the "duty link" version, it was possible to lift two pairs of R 60 missiles literally in a minute and a half ... At the same time, in air combat it is unlikely that their effectiveness would have been lower than Harrier. That in combination with powerful air defense systems of the compound and a bunch of "metal cutters" in the near zone reduced Argentina's capabilities to successful attacks to negligible values. (Although it is impossible to completely exclude the possibility of a breakthrough) - although, again, the fight for survivability on our ships was not much better. Worse, the support of the landing in this case would lie solely on the shoulders of VTOL aircraft and MLRS landing ships ... naval artillery here looks absolutely insufficient. Again, most likely (if it came to the landing), our BDK would have landed "armor" and the Argentine troops could do little to oppose it ...
    1. 0
      3 August 2016 14: 33
      would be lower, but would cope with the task

      The BDK would be planted through the nasal ramps much faster and therefore with less risk, and if necessary, closer to Stanley
      the war after leaving the area lasted about a week and not 2 months
    2. +1
      3 August 2016 17: 29
      Quote: Taoist
      The option "for Argentina" turned out to be quite fun ...

      Yes, who would doubt it. Here the English union does not dance at all
      Quote: Taoist
      Option "for Britain" is more difficult

      Nevertheless, I agree with you on almost all points. Except, perhaps, armor - helicopters are needed there rather than armor. But this is already particular hi
      1. +1
        3 August 2016 18: 17
        By the way, it is also an interesting moment, after such a "debriefing" in our regiment, the disputes about the "necessity" of the aircraft carrier in our fleet somehow subsided by themselves ... After all, if you do not take a hypothetical collision with the "6th strike fleet", which is equivalent to the 3rd world the rest against our fleet stupidly "did not dance" ... It turned out really "universal machine" ...
        1. 0
          3 August 2016 18: 23
          the French could somehow dance, but not with one against four wink
          1. 0
            3 August 2016 18: 28
            No, they thought, they didn’t dance ... even against one ... There weren’t enough strikers to break through the air defense and there was nothing to repulse the attack of our anti-ship missiles ... Although the chances were of course ... ...
            1. 0
              3 August 2016 19: 27
              With 41m instead (or together with) 38m did not dance for sure.
        2. +1
          3 August 2016 19: 54
          Quote: Taoist
          By the way, it's also an interesting moment, after such a "debriefing" in our regiment, the disputes about the "need" of the aircraft carrier in our fleet somehow subsided by themselves ...

          :))))) That is absolutely not surprised!
          Quote: Taoist
          After all, if you do not take a hypothetical collision with the "6th strike fleet" which is equivalent to the 3rd world war, all the rest against our fleet stupidly "did not dance" ...

          It's hard to say about the French. These with enough "Exosets" could do byaku. Yak, of course, also air defense, no one argues, and against the same Sea Harriers, who had to fly up close to the ships, there is even a very argument, but against the attack of 10-12 shock Etandars, one Exoset at each from a distance of 30 kilometers ... and scratch. However, the question is VERY fortunate, the French have a small aircraft carrier, it is difficult for him to keep the sky, and no one has removed the Ka-25 from the radar, so our detection range is also much further than the horizon. And if we have any air defense systems against their air attack, then they could only catch our anti-ship missiles with a laugh ...
          1. 0
            4 August 2016 10: 57
            There, there was no talk about Yaki as an air defense ... It's just that the French stupidly did not have enough strike vehicles to overcome the long-range air defense systems of our compound, and the pair of three that still had a chance to break through to the launch line did not make the weather - Exoset is too small a warhead so that inflict any serious damage to the cruiser (even if the "metal cutters" missed it. Unlike the British, we did not abandon the MZA ...
            1. 0
              5 August 2016 11: 07
              they could do something against Argentina, as well as intercept Exosets pusakmi IR missiles at them in the tail
  14. +1
    3 August 2016 16: 23
    Quote: Operator

    Once again - the author at the end of the article (and I in my commentary) does not speak about the Falklands, Britain and Argentina, but about the aircraft carriers and the means of dealing with them in general.

    I don’t plan to write anything, because there is no intrigue in the 1982 year - external target designation from Soviet satellites of radar intelligence broadcasted to the General Staff of Argentina, plus several Soviet diesel-electric submarines with anti-ship missiles on board leased to the Argentine Navy, and British aircraft carriers are proudly sinking .

    just bought or taken to the arena of Su-17/22 as for example then did the same Peru
  15. -3
    3 August 2016 19: 33
    About nothing. If grandmother had x ... But Baba Yaga is against. Shame.
  16. -5
    3 August 2016 23: 03
    The waste of bukoff in the article is simply touches ... If only ... And this despite the fact that today there are a lot of software products for simulating all kinds of military situations! And it's freely available! And then what do the real military men have with their supercompamies? The attempts of home-grown "analysts" to simulate military situations can only cause a smile or even regret for the wasted time ... But if a person wants to do this, then why burden the rest with this nonsense?
  17. +3
    4 August 2016 01: 32
    I do not agree that, with the theoretical availability of AWACS helicopters, the British would take them only 6 per squadron, because they can be based on each destroyer, and the British did not have an acute need for a heap of anti-submarine helicopters, so there was a THEORETICAL possibility to provide AWACS during the light day a couple of helicopters.
    Well, for a full-fledged aircraft carrier - not considered how many planes and for what purposes he could keep in the air. And so it’s all about the case, as always a good article.
  18. 0
    5 August 2016 23: 07
    Quote: maximghost
    And so on,

    In short, it is simply touching to ask the question "what if the British had ordinary aircraft carriers with conventional aircraft - Arc-Royal, Eagle, CVA-01, etc., and INSTEAD and not TOGETHER with SCVVP,
    and a pre-agreed conclusion - well, of course, then the British would have easily defeated the Argentines!
    And here in the case it turns out:
    1. An ordinary plane (and therefore an aircraft in general) such as the Cruzeider capable of fighting the maneuverable Mirage would not have been publicized then (and in what case then to win then?), And
    2. CVA-01, it is - on the contrary, the intended carrier of VTOL.
    Good analysis :-)))))
  19. 0
    2 January 2017 01: 34
    Thank. Great article. As a beginner, much becomes clear to me. I look forward to articles about the Navy of other countries.