Military Review

"Crocodiles" without "Alligators"

50
Instead of new Ka-52 and Mi-28H, veteran helicopters are working in the sky of Syria and there are reasons for that


October 28, Russian Army aviation 67 years old. The date is not round, but at the same time on October 28 exactly thirty days from the moment of the start of strikes by a group of Russian Aerospace Forces on militant positions in Syria. And if the actions of the "elder brothers" - attack aircraft, front-line bombers and fighters - are constantly covered by officials and the media, then the work of Mi-24 and Mi-8 helicopters also based in the Khmeimim airbase remains in the shadows.

According to official data of the Russian military department, attack helicopters Mi-24 and airborne transport Mi-8 have been deployed to Syria. The task of the helicopter pilots is the search and rescue of the downed pilots, as well as the protection of the airbase against a possible attack by the militants.

Forces and means


The exact number of helicopters is not called, it is only known that the combined air group includes more than 50 airplanes and helicopters of several types. It can be assumed that 12 – 15 machines of army aviation are based in total in Lattakia.

“In theory, a rocket hits a target at a range of up to five to six kilometers, but in practice, in order to get there, you must get much closer”
The combat-operating Mi-24 operating in Syria (according to the available data, not less than seven vehicles) belong to the “P” modification, which is distinguished by a fixed 30-mm cannon installation located on the starboard side. Whatever is said officially, Mi-24, they are also in the army slang "Crocodiles", are used primarily to strike at the identified positions of the militants, as well as to directly support the Syrian government forces.

The fleet of amphibious transport helicopters of the Russian VKS group in Syria is more diverse, with both the new Mi-8AMTSH and Mi-8MTV-5 with the characteristic “dolphin” nose. Accordingly, in Hmeimim "eights" at least five - eight cars.

As explained to the Military Industrial Courier newspaper, a representative of the Ministry of Defense issued by the Ulan-Uda Mi-8AMTSH helicopter plant ("Terminator") can be used to transport troops and cargo, as well as to evacuate downed pilots and perform percussion tasks, if necessary, complementing Mi -24.

“Mi-8AMTSH can be effectively used in adverse weather conditions, and most importantly - at night. His onboard equipment is compatible with night-vision devices that the crew has. Pilots work out such tasks constantly. However, it is impossible to use guided missiles with AMTSH, so the ammunition load is limited to unguided rockets and cannon-mounts, ”said the source. The photos of the Mi-8AMTSH, which are based on the Khmeimim airbase, which are available on the network, clearly show that NAR units are installed on them.

"Crocodiles" without "Alligators"Externally similar to AMTSH, but the Mi-8MTV-5 released in Kazan are primarily transport vehicles intended for the transport of personnel and various cargoes.

Relatively recently, it was reported that the latest Mi-28H "Night Hunter" attack helicopters were also shipped to Syria. However, according to the newspaper “Military-Industrial Courier”, neither Mi-28, nor Ka-52, nor Mi-35М (deep modernization of Mi-24) are transferred to Syria, the question of their possible participation is only being worked out.

The reason why the choice of the leadership of the Russian aerospace forces in the formation of the shock group in Syria fell on the older, but proven Mi-24P, in comparison with the new models, which are very limited in possible actions in adverse weather conditions, is not called. However, army aviation officers made several assumptions on this matter.

The first. The Aerospace Forces have a vast experience not only in operation, but also in maintaining the flight and combat readiness of Mi-24 helicopters with their intensive use in desert conditions, characterized by high temperatures and large amounts of dust and sand. The fact that the newest Ka-52 and Mi-28 in Syria, especially with intensive combat work, will be just as reliable, there is no absolute certainty, but I don’t want to risk it.

The second. the main thing weapon the newest helicopters - whirlwind guided anti-tank missiles - are too expensive to use on ordinary jeeps and trucks with machine guns mounted on them. And if we also take into account the costs of maintenance, refueling, and so on, then from an economic point of view, using the latest Mi-28 and Ka-52 to combat such "carts", even using conventional unguided missiles, is completely unjustified.

Although the air forces of Iraq’s neighbor with Syria have long enough and successfully used Russian attack helicopters Mi-35М, and more recently, more modern Mi-28, against ISIL militants. Iraqi pilots use ATGM to destroy buildings, for other targets they work with cannon fire and unguided rockets. But the Iraqi command has its reasons, our Ministry of Defense has its own reasons.

Tactical tricks


Judging by the available photos and videos, in Syria, Russian helicopter pilots operate strictly according to regulatory documents, while demonstrating a high level of flying skill. It is still quite difficult to assess the real effectiveness of their combat work: let's say, on the video chronicle one can see launches of unguided missiles by Mi-24 helicopters, hits are visible, but it is unclear whether the target was hit, whether the firing point was suppressed, whether the militants were covered. And the official representatives of the Ministry of Defense do not voice the results of the work of Russian helicopter pilots, nor even the number of combat sorties they performed.

Considering the location of the Khmeimim airbase and its distance from the Russian helicopters, as well as the estimated number of Mi-24 and Mi-8 based there, it can be assumed that the Army Aviation performed at least 100 sorties for the month to attack and patrol air base area.

The main weapon of the Russian Mi-24 in Syria became unguided aircraft missiles. Depending on the task being performed, two or four NAR units are suspended on pylons. In addition to the unguided rockets, the Crocodiles also carry two, and sometimes four, Sturm anti-tank missiles, but there is no reliable confirmation of the use of these missiles.

But the Russian pilots use cannon arsenal quite rarely. Given that helicopters operate at low altitude and at high speeds, there is practically no time for aiming at a small target. The very first video footage of the work of Russian attack helicopters in Syria caused a stream of comments in foreign and domestic media. Journalists and experts, comparing the use of US Ap-64 Apache attack helicopters in Afghanistan and Iraq, made by the on-board optical-electronic systems of these helicopters (the so-called kill video), state that the on-board armament of Russian helicopters is extremely inefficient, and flying low on height make "Crocodiles" excellent targets.

At the request of the newspaper “Military Industrial Courier”, the pilot of the Mi-24 helicopter of the Russian Aerospace Force commented on such reports in the media, and also explained some features of using Russian attack helicopters: “Yes, the video of using American Apaches looks very impressive. There are fighters visible on the thermal imager, several bursts from a cannon - and all targets are hit. But for some reason no one pays attention to the fact that the helicopter is firing either at very low speed, or even hanging. At the same time, the helicopter has a high enough height, not one hundred meters, and it fires for a few minutes, while the enemy practically does not respond to it. If the militants would have large-caliber machine guns of the DShK type or anti-aircraft installations Zu-23-2, it is unlikely that Apache would be able to afford such pleasure. ”

According to the pilot, Mi-24 usually operate in pairs. Depending on the type of target, the pilot of the lead vehicle chooses a maneuver.

“If the target is large enough in area - a group of buildings, a cluster of vehicles or infantry, then the launch of the missiles is done with a small climb. If the target is a point - an armored vehicle, field reinforcement, a separate building, then the missiles are launched from horizontal flight or dive. After the strike, the NUR theoretically should open fire from a cannon, after which a sharp lapel or anti-fuel maneuver is performed. But in practice, if the enemy responds with fire, it is better to skip the cannon, and immediately turn away, ”the pilot shares the secrets of tactics.

Unlike the same AN-64, the Mi-24 cannot hang in place for the use of weapons and, as the Russian pilot said, everything has to be done in motion.

“To use the ATGM, the operator needs to find a target, take it to support, and only then launch it. The "Crocodile" does not have modern optoelectronic systems, so it all depends on the skills of the crew. While the missile is approaching the target, the operator keeps it on track, and the pilot must evade enemy fire so as not to interfere with the operator’s work. In theory, a missile strikes a target at a distance of five to six kilometers, but in practice, to get a guided missile accurately, you need to come much closer. Therefore, conventional NAR is preferred. Yes, with such missiles tanks you can’t do it, but for light armored vehicles, for buildings, for field fortifications, a volley of several unguided missiles is enough to destroy the target. But you fired a salvo of NAR, quickly turned away and left the fire, ”the officer explains.

The tactic “shot - and quickly leave” is used not only by Russian helicopter pilots. According to official data from the US Army, on the first day of the Anaconda operation in Afghanistan, when the crews of six Apache helicopters from the 101 air assault division were met with intense fire from large-caliber machine guns and anti-aircraft installations, and well-aimed shots from hand-held grenade launchers RPG-7 militants "Taliban", the Americans spent several hundred unguided missiles, a total of 540 shells 30-mm aircraft cannon and only one ATGM "Hellfire".

In order to evade fire from the ground, American pilots had to fall to extremely low altitude, but this did not save them from enemy fire. Then, at their own expense, the militants recorded two downed Apache. According to the recollections of the helicopter pilots of the 101-th VSD, in such conditions only high speed and abrupt maneuvers saved. At the same time, there was not enough time to accurately aim from a cannon or launch an anti-tank missile, so the helicopter pilots launched a NAR volley at the enemy and immediately carried out the withdrawal.

When the night falls


It is impossible to deny that modern foreign attack helicopters, such as the AN-64 and Tiger, are seriously superior to the Russian Mi-24P when operating at night. In particular, during an operation in Libya, according to the British Defense Ministry, Apache helicopters of an army air corps made more than 85 percent of combat sorties at night.

“At night in conditions of urban combat, when the enemy is close to his troops, it is very difficult to use helicopters. It all depends on how well the aircraft carrier works on the ground. From the air through a night vision device it is very difficult to distinguish where their own, and where others are. We must not forget that civilians can be near the target, ”the source said.

Therefore, the most effective way of nightly use of helicopters in local conflicts is free hunting in specified areas, but even in these cases no one is immune from the fact that civilians would come under fire.

Although it is not excluded that for strikes after sunset, the VKS RF uses just transport-impact Mi-8АМТШ, equipped with fairly modern optical-electronic stations.

Despite the fact that the Ministry of Defense of Russia in its official statements prefers not to advertise the participation of helicopters in air strikes, these machines solve quite complex tasks, while the number of sorties made by helicopters is significant. It is still difficult to assess exactly what number of targets destroyed the Mi-24 and Mi-8, but an indirect sign of the effectiveness of their work is the slow, but still ongoing, offensive of the Syrian government forces.

And despite the fact that while in Syria, proven, but still morally obsolete Mi-24Ps do not have modern means of observation and sighting complexes, losing even to the modernized Mi-35М, not to mention the more modern Mi-28 and Ka-52.
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  1. Eggor
    Eggor 4 November 2015 05: 57 New
    16
    Russian Aerospace Forces in Syria - Mi-24

    1. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 4 November 2015 07: 57 New
      16
      "Mi-24 always take off in pairs" - moreover, a pair CONSTANTLY is in the air, circling above the base of the videoconferencing. Plus combat sorties. The fuel consumption is frantic, almost a ton per hour. But as far as I know, the Syrian authorities promise to compensate everything (this is the answer to those who are worried about the costs of the operation in Syria). hi
      1. Shadowcat
        Shadowcat 4 November 2015 09: 58 New
        +5
        mmm .... So just a question for thought - The cost of ammunition and fuel excite economists ministers in peacetime. In the military and during hostilities, the military is worried.
        In general, in the first case, we spend a lot of money, let's reduce it, but the fact that in the end the soldiers take a mop and do it in their underwear while they study doesn’t care about them.
        In the second, the military has a headache that the soldier does not know how, ammunition in warehouses is small, etc. etc.
        In general, as Bonapartier grilled, either we feed our own or a stranger comes and feed her.
        1. Amurets
          Amurets 4 November 2015 11: 35 New
          +6
          Moreover, the difference is significant to feed your own or someone else’s. It’s cheaper to feed your army. Only economists do not understand this. Conclusion: by order of the Commander-in-Chief, that is, the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the State of Ministers-Economists, one month TWO times a year, they are sent for retraining in positions no higher than the commander departments. And in order not to cause economic damage to the state, they must undergo retraining at their own expense.
      2. Gomel
        Gomel 4 November 2015 11: 34 New
        +6
        forget about fuel, in the Syrian government only 4 of the month (at the beginning of this year) could not provide troops with direct fuel supplies from the refinery (they lived off the reserves and some help from the Russian Federation) after the start of the SAA attack, one of the strategic tasks was the uninterrupted supply of oil to the refinery and risk-free the work of the refinery (without shelling and terrorist attacks), these tasks were completed.
        In Syria, there are only two fairly large refineries capable of producing an entire spectrum of fuel from diesel to aviation ... in Homs and in the port city of Banias.
        With Homs, it’s still clear intermittently, and the Banyaisk Refinery is modernizing and working without interruption. There are many more smaller ones (naturally non-producing jet fuel), but the balance is maintained, Bayanis makes more aviation, smaller more simple diesel fuel. And now the fuel problem is not as acute as at the end of the last or the beginning of this year, when government forces lost some of their control over oil fields (there was no corny for the production of raw materials).
        Actually, from the Iraqi company in the USA, everyone understood that refineries (and even according to Western projects and standards) are an archaeologically important strategic object in a warring (captured) country. Therefore, the same amount of forces and the same special forces (including from the Cheka) were sent to suppress the air defense of command centers, capture bridges, radio, television stations and oil refineries.
        So with the release of Homs (as a province), the refinery will work at full capacity and the severity of problems with any fuel in Syria will come to naught, completely.
    2. Sweles
      Sweles 4 November 2015 09: 06 New
      18
      If you don’t check, you don’t understand how to do it. Now is the time to check the technique, and when else? And what comes with mi28 and ka52 then they too can work with uncontrolled missiles.
      1. cosmos111
        cosmos111 4 November 2015 10: 33 New
        +2
        "Crocodiles" without "Alligators"

        "Black Shark" K-50 + Alligator K-52 has long been tested in combat in Chechnya ....



        completely in vain K-50 was not adopted for service !!!!
        1. BIGLESHIY
          BIGLESHIY 4 November 2015 11: 43 New
          +5
          Quote: cosmos111

          completely in vain K-50 was not adopted for service !!!!

          The fact of the matter is that having won the MI-28 competition, it was put into service in 1995, but as always, we did not have enough money and 15 pieces were produced.
    3. Ramzaj99
      Ramzaj99 4 November 2015 11: 24 New
      +8
      The nonsense is written in the article. How can I compare Apache and MI-24 ??? These are machines of completely different classes and they have different purposes and different uses.
      Apache can be compared with MI-28, and it is not nearly inferior either in armament or in electronics. And it easily performs everything that is written in the article, freezing and shooting from a considerable distance.
    4. vyinemeynen
      vyinemeynen 4 November 2015 12: 29 New
      +1
      I think the Mi-28N will appear in Syria when it becomes necessary. So far, the military probably believes that the Mi-24 is enough.
  2. dvg79
    dvg79 4 November 2015 06: 07 New
    21
    In general, the strange logic of our command is to use outdated equipment, having a new one. Would you test it in real battles, reveal shortcomings, and efficiency should be higher. Or is it not all as good as official sources sing, and Alligators with Night Hunters are not really ready?
    1. svp67
      svp67 4 November 2015 06: 23 New
      +8
      Quote: dvg79
      In general, the strange logic of our command is to use outdated technology, having a new

      The logic is normal, these machines have already been tested more than once and most importantly they have proven their reliability in such difficult conditions, so if you need to save our pilots, it’s better not to find helicopters now. Moreover, all helicopters underwent repair and modernization before being sent to Syria. But new cars can be sent there for a “break-in”, as is done with airplanes, when the main part of the air group is old and tested Su24 and Su25, and a little Su34
    2. jPilot
      jPilot 4 November 2015 06: 33 New
      +9
      Not any oddities, as long as there is a resource, the equipment should work, all the more tested not only for years but also for theater. It’s never too late to move new things into battle, and then what to do with old equipment that can still fly and carry out BZ (combat missions)? And with efficiency, and so everything is fine weapons and sighting systems have not changed very much, just like armor. And so the machine should, like a warrior, fly out its resource on the battlefield and with honor on pedestals for memory or melting into a new life.
      1. dvg79
        dvg79 4 November 2015 07: 49 New
        -9
        And if the resource in the battle ends, the pilot, together with the machine in Valhalla, does not let go of the pen?
        1. bootlegger
          bootlegger 4 November 2015 09: 12 New
          12
          And you do not confuse a resource with fuel? smile
      2. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 4 November 2015 11: 09 New
        22
        for jPilot:
        "Not any oddities, as long as there is a resource, the technique should work" ////

        A new technique to test in battle? Otherwise, how do you know its flaws?

        The IDF is the principle - the latest technology at the earliest opportunity
        allowed into battle. Sometimes still in the process of testing it. There are losses
        (as with Merkava-4 tanks in Lebanon). But we know exactly where the weak points are,
        what to strengthen, what to replace.
        1. sharp-lad
          sharp-lad 4 November 2015 21: 55 New
          -1
          There are slightly different conditions in Syria, have you ever seen an almost entire downed fighter (modern)? But the branches, it happens, remain intact enough for further study! Should I give such an opportunity to the "partners" in the study of the latest domestic weapons?
    3. PN
      PN 4 November 2015 06: 55 New
      +3
      Break-in is one thing, but there must also be prompt and high-quality service for these machines, plus a fleet of spare parts. Is there a snag with this?
    4. seos
      seos 4 November 2015 07: 39 New
      +5
      1) Mi-24 carries more weapons ... including bombs (there is a video of a bomb drop in Syria).
      2) The nomenclature of weapons is similar to Su-25 (NURs, Bombs, 30mm shells)
      3) Mi-24 is quite stable - there was a case of getting into Mi-24 with a missile with ATGM (most likely in the landing compartment), Mi-24 could not be shot down.
      1. donavi49
        donavi49 4 November 2015 09: 15 New
        19
        However, there are also disadvantages:
        Mi-24 used in Syria for video and photos do not have any ESAs and no diffusers! Even the Limes are screwed up. This means any successful twin launch MANPADS - hit.
        Mi-24 have an extremely weak cabin booking, which is quite in demand in the conditions of MZA operation from each cart (the question of statistics is when a bullet flies).

        In the article, the priorities of such a decision were a bit incorrect:
        - The entire Mi-28Н fleet is currently undergoing troubleshooting and node replacement, following an investigation into the crash at an air show. One more thing is connected with this, the pilots did not have practice for a long time (there was a ban on Mi-28 flights - moreover, precisely during the period of active preparation and formation of lists for dispatch).

        - The Ka-52, with all its advanced capabilities, has no guided missiles; moreover, combat aircraft do not have access to work with anything other than packages of NARs and guns. Pilots work out only this at the moment. Only experienced KBShnyh boards operate controlled, bring radar in combat modes, etc.


        About the fact that the broads have only carts, he laughed. The offensive on al-Karasi in southern Aleppo, the other day - 4 separate groups Tank + BMP + 15-20 infantry. Nusra took the town this way in the evening.
      2. Thronekeeper
        Thronekeeper 4 November 2015 11: 39 New
        14
        In addition, the text contains errors in essence. The Whirlwind is still in the testing phase. All Mi-24, Mi-28 and Ka-52 are working "Attacks." 90% of the Mi-24 fleet in the Russian Federation is modernized. So the same automatic aiming guns UR and the same OEPS. It is hard to believe that with the antique "Rainbow-Sh", the verts were taken to Syria.
        Mi-35M is an export version of Mi-24VM.
        On the Mi-24PK / PM, but the PM is “trimmed” and the chassis is not retractable, so it’s not him, you can hang 20 different Atak missile defense systems, which is even more than the 28th.
        But 20 SDs are good against tanks, DOS, air targets, headquarters, etc. Against manpower, open artillery and mortars, light cars and armored vehicles they simply will not be enough. Therefore, 80 NAR and 4 SD in this case are preferable. As well as a heavy launching launch with a large b / c, aimed at the same range as the NAR. Therefore, not m / f with a very effective moving GS-23, including new ones, but these vehicles, for a combat mission.
        A helicopter officer would never say such things. It seems that he exists only in the head of a journalist. In the above privacy, it does not correspond to OEPS, according to ATGM / SD and night battle. Mi-24 UR can suppress point targets, and work armor, artillery, etc. And it is almost impossible to provide direct support in the conditions of a city from existing in the world at night, and this is not an easy task during the day. Victims among m / f and friendly fire are guaranteed. Despite the fact that at night the Syrians almost never advance, due to the small number of infrared devices.
        Using the Mi-28 as a rotary-wing attack aircraft is dangerous. Mi-24 at 320-335km / h due to its perfect aerodynamic shape and developed wing catches the screen effect, while the reactive moment is compensated and flies at a low altitude of 15-20 meters with a large excess of power. Mi-28 on one copy of the relief will lose speed and should still have a margin of height, which is unsafe. Krok is a machine of direct support, and against disparate groups of insurgents and columns of equipment, no one machine works better than him. Mi-28 extinguishes single tanks from an ambush, and it’s not a matter of saving rockets or kerosene.
        And about the “Attacks” - even the Storm with the old “rainbow” was planted into the embrasure and blew through the window, and in Iran the evading “Cobra” was felled from five km - a very reliable and accurate semi-automatic system. Moreover, all are equipped only with “Attacks” as standard.
        But the lack of an EVU and the old ESA "Lipa" are annoying me. God forbid - the Khokhlops will put “Needles” with a cross-referenced requestor, which are guided by the “Lipe”.
      3. svd-xnumx
        svd-xnumx 4 November 2015 17: 41 New
        +3
        And MI-24 also has a landing compartment, which is very useful in case of a rescue operation.
    5. demo
      demo 4 November 2015 10: 15 New
      10
      With the loss of at least one new helicopter, with the “run-in”, as you put it, such a howl will rise!
      But if, God forbid, the old Mi 24 breaks down, then we can talk about the use of old technology.
      Is it logical

      And generally speaking.
      Lift 100 grams!
      So that the number of departures is always equal to the number of landings.
      For our birds!
      For unity!
      Happy Holidays!
    6. bubla5
      bubla5 4 November 2015 13: 09 New
      +3
      With the intent to transfer equipment after to Syrian troops
    7. Gomel
      Gomel 4 November 2015 13: 40 New
      +4
      in Iraq and Afghanistan are combat ready, but in the Russian Aerospace Forces and AA? think for yourself what you wrote.
      Doesn't mix two thoughts in one sentence :)

      YES, the logic of the RF Ministry of Defense is not clear (really, why not use it, at least in single copies?).

      NO combat readiness is sufficient and tested by successes in Iraq (about MI28) and Afghanistan (MI35, etc.)

      in this situation it is more logical to refer to a lack of objective information than to make such an assumption that Alligators with Night Hunters are really not ready for combat.

      Well, the logic you do not fit in this case!
    8. bif
      bif 4 November 2015 20: 16 New
      +1
      Quote: dvg79
      In general, the strange logic of our command is to use outdated technology, having a new one.

      It’s just that this equipment will most likely be left in Syria, either for the Syrian army, or for our contingent at a future air base.
  3. svp67
    svp67 4 November 2015 06: 15 New
    +6
    The exact number of helicopters is not called, it is only known that the combined air group includes more than 50 airplanes and helicopters of several types. It can be assumed that 12 – 15 machines of army aviation are based in total in Lattakia.
  4. antikilller55
    antikilller55 4 November 2015 06: 15 New
    +4
    Well, what can I say, our General Staff knows better what and where to send for the operation. We are waiting for the comments of the helicopter pilots.
    1. Bayonet
      Bayonet 4 November 2015 17: 09 New
      +3
      Quote: antikilller55
      Well, what can I say, our General Staff knows better what and where to send for the operation. We are waiting for the comments of the helicopter pilots.

      Whose opinion is higher? (cry)
  5. air wolf
    air wolf 4 November 2015 07: 20 New
    +6
    Yes, because they will be left there! Why shred new technology? And airplanes can successfully fly anywhere (Iraq, for example).
    1. NEXUS
      NEXUS 4 November 2015 09: 42 New
      +3
      Quote: air wolf
      Yes, because they will be left there! Why shred new technology? And airplanes can successfully fly anywhere (Iraq, for example).

      It’s quite a good idea. But I think it’s necessary to add to the above-Sorry, citizens, why did you get the idea that the helicopter (and generally aviation) group will not increase in the future? I’m sure that the number of the same helicopters will increase and I think the Hunters will appear and alligators.
      There, the work is still "start and finish", in addition to Syria will be Iraq, Afghanistan and so on. The growth of the air group is proceeding in stages, as tasks arise and requirements develop. hi
  6. Basarev
    Basarev 4 November 2015 08: 09 New
    +4
    The military leaders cannot understand one thing - a military operation is always a risk. And therefore, the reluctance to throw the latest cars into battle, explaining the risk - is actually banal cowardice. And most importantly - the Iraqi command has the courage to fight on the Mi-28.
    1. alicante11
      alicante11 4 November 2015 09: 18 New
      +3
      And therefore, the reluctance to throw the latest cars into battle, explaining the risk - in fact, banal cowardice


      Here is a strange person. It turns out that if you are dealt an ace of trump, then you should immediately come in from it? As you can see, the old people work out well on terrorugs. And if MI-24 is lost even from the influence of the enemy, even because of a malfunction, the enemy will learn a little new about our technology, while the hypothetical loss of the latest helicopter, and even over the positions of the terrorists, will be an excellent gift for Amers in the field of studying our latest technology. So why once again introduce “partners” into temptation?
      1. Basarev
        Basarev 4 November 2015 10: 54 New
        -9
        Well, I don’t know, there were very few Apaches lost, unlike hundreds of downed Crocodiles in Afghanistan alone. Precisely because they are more technically advanced and hit in hovering from afar, beyond the reach of enemy weapons. And right after the volley fade from there. And not like ours - pilots rely only on armor and hit by eye, because the electronics are terribly ancient. And they strike from the approach, because the helicopter is unable to hang.
        1. lelikas
          lelikas 4 November 2015 12: 46 New
          +5
          Quote: Basarev
          Well, I don’t know, there were very few Apaches lost, unlike hundreds of downed Crocodiles in Afghanistan alone.

          Oh cunning! During the ten years of the war, about 120 crocodiles were lost, and the Apaches in Afghanistan and Iraq lost as many during the year of the war (13 each).
          1. alicante11
            alicante11 4 November 2015 13: 28 New
            0
            Well, I don’t know, there were very few Apaches lost, unlike hundreds of downed Crocodiles in Afghanistan alone


            Well, so far the crocodiles "fly and do not fall." I think that during the development of the operation, losses were either not laid at all, or laid at the minimum. Too much superiority. Yes, plus new electronic warfare systems are checked, and it’s better to check for junk than to substitute newer ones.
          2. Thronekeeper
            Thronekeeper 4 November 2015 13: 55 New
            +1
            OK. 190 Apaches and 47 Super Cobra. A total of 620 helicopters. Mi-24 in Afghanistan lost 78, excluding the DRA army.
    2. Koshak
      Koshak 4 November 2015 11: 51 New
      +3
      Quote: Basarev
      The military leaders cannot understand one thing - a military operation is always a risk. And therefore, the reluctance to throw the latest cars into battle, explaining the risk - is actually banal cowardice. And most importantly - the Iraqi command has the courage to fight on the Mi-28.

      And why are you still not the chief of the general staff? Such a strategist disappears at the computer. The military leaders cannot understand, but you understand everything.
      1. Marconi41
        Marconi41 5 November 2015 00: 47 New
        +1
        Quote: Koshak
        And why are you still not the chief of the general staff? Such a strategist disappears at the computer. The military leaders cannot understand, but you understand everything.

        In vain you go on insults. Here everyone expresses his point of view. And opinion Basareva also has a place to be.
    3. Marconi41
      Marconi41 5 November 2015 00: 42 New
      +2
      Quote: Basarev
      And therefore, the reluctance to throw the latest cars into battle, explaining the risk - in fact, banal cowardice

      Perhaps I will agree with you. At the General Staff, they are simply unreasonably afraid of suffering image losses in the event that our new turntables are knocked down. The United States does not disdain to use its “Indians” wherever they are at war, and this combat experience, on the contrary, brings these helicopters its advantages in tenders.
      And the experience of Iraq also says something. There is nothing to say about Israel, they always throw all the best into battle.
  7. v1tz
    v1tz 4 November 2015 09: 42 New
    +3
    This "old man" can still make such a rustle, mom do not grieve.
  8. Shadowcat
    Shadowcat 4 November 2015 10: 04 New
    +1
    On the one hand, it’s clear why the old people are used - as always, there is little new technology, no experience, etc. etc. I don’t want to lose. Here, so many, both from the left and from the right, burned when our guys went to Syria. What happens if there is a funeral? And they will be at least for the reason that some people will tear their ass on a star-striped to get the giblets of these machines for a detailed study.

    On the other hand, I would like to - everything is a landfill after all, but on the other hand there are export machines that, as some comrades noted, are being operated. Wai not running in? Both our whole and our specialists will be taken into account during the repair. Like Iraqi and Iranian cars our enterprises serve.
  9. made13
    made13 4 November 2015 10: 37 New
    0
    Mi24 can be left in Syria is not free, of course. The well-developed design, the pilot training system is established, spare parts and ammunition are relatively inexpensive.
  10. Kadex
    Kadex 4 November 2015 10: 56 New
    +3
    It may be true, of course, but to test a couple of instances in the case would be useful.
    Teachings by teachings, but experience, son of difficult mistakes ...
  11. Urri
    Urri 4 November 2015 12: 30 New
    +2
    Quote: voyaka uh
    A new technique to test in battle? Otherwise, how do you know its flaws?


    They will test, they will test. Do not be so killed. Only away from the Golan Heights and Dnepropetrovsk. So that the volume of operational and technical information sold by Mossad in the CIA in the CIA is slightly reduced :-)))
  12. Yves762
    Yves762 4 November 2015 13: 12 New
    +2
    I remember the same USSR used the MiGi-25s, the latest of that time, in the late 1960s and early 1970s in Egypt, against Israel, was not shy.
    Ka-50s in Chechnya in December-February 2000-2001.
    On the other hand, the Su-34 in the "peace enforcement operation" of 2008 and now, a lot of things in between.
    It would be interesting to hear the opinion of the MO. Although perhaps not used due to recent accidents at the air show (Mi-28) and in Moscow (Ka-52).
  13. mitrich
    mitrich 4 November 2015 14: 16 New
    +2
    At least a pair of Alligators, Night Hunters and Su-35 would be sent to the database zone for combat testing. And how else to check the technique in a real battle. And Syria, it’s not 100% combat conditions, all the same it’s a fight with the Papuans and milder conditions than in Afghanistan.
    1. NEXUS
      NEXUS 4 November 2015 14: 50 New
      +1
      Quote: mitrich
      At least a pair of Alligators, Night Hunters and Su-35 would be sent to the database zone for combat testing. And how else to check the technique in a real battle.

      So the database doesn’t end tomorrow. I think the ISIS will be driven “to the Romanian border” through Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, etc., and therefore it’s not at all a fact that Syria and SU-35 and Alligators and many new systems will not be launched ".Although the same SU-35 in Syria is useless, maybe it is a fighter for capturing the sky. But ISIS has no air forces of its own.
      Quote: mitrich
      And Syria, it’s not 100% combat conditions, all the same it’s a fight with the Papuans and milder conditions than in Afghanistan.

      Whether the Papuans ... these "Papuans" have very deep wallets and patronage in the Washington regional committee. So to consider them from the side that they got off the palm trees yesterday is not very far-sighted. hi
      1. Dr. Livesey
        Dr. Livesey 4 November 2015 19: 44 New
        0
        Quote: NEXUS
        So the database doesn’t end tomorrow. I think the ISIS will be driven “to the Romanian border” through Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, etc., and therefore it’s not at all a fact that Syria and SU-35 and Alligators and many new systems will not be launched "

        Who will drive them will be "to the Romanian border" ??? Syrian army ?! "Russia's military operation against terrorists in Syria is limited by the time of the offensive of Bashar al-Assad’s army. This was stated by Russian Deputy Minister of Defense Anatoly Antonov at the third meeting of ASEAN defense ministers and dialogue partners." http://tvzvezda.ru/news/vstrane_i_mire/content/201511040819-hgrc.htm
        Assad would have had enough manpower and resources (primarily human) to squeeze the Babaev out of the republic’s borders and close the border “on a castle”.
  14. 31rus
    31rus 4 November 2015 14: 44 New
    0
    Dear, everything has its time, they will tell you about the guidance of aviation, and about the night attacks of the Mi-28, do not rush, not all at once there are a lot of tasks and goals, someone doubted the presence of the air defense and air defense systems, but everything turned out to be in place and has been working for a long time
  15. snc
    snc 4 November 2015 20: 51 New
    +6
    Still, neither in the article, nor in the comments of the adequate arguments why I use only the obsolete Mi-24P, I did not find.
    1. Service. Serial Mi-28 and Ka-52 have been in operation for more than three years, so there is experience. In addition, it is much easier to service them, access to the units is facilitated, and there is a developed self-diagnosis system.
    2. Loss of secrecy. Firstly, no one will calmly dismantle a fallen car. Secondly, according to this logic, a new technique can be applied only at the beginning of the third world war.
    3. "Mi-24 has better flight capabilities for the use of NURSs than Mi-28" Nonsense is complete. Considering that our pilots work from extremely low altitudes, the Mi-28 with its powerful armor is much preferable to the Mi-24, which has armored glass only in front.
    4. The whirlwind for the Ka-52 is produced in series, Izhmash has already shipped the first soar. Too expensive - also nonsense; in the end, the toad did not strangle us with the "Caliber".
    5. Even for patrolling the area around our bases, it would be better to have upgraded Mi-24VM / PN.
    6. The experience of real combat use is invaluable; it cannot be replaced by any training ground. Plus this is the best advertisement.
    At the time of the return of the Crimea, in our air there were only new and modernized turntables by the way (who are interested, look on YouTube)