Military Review

352 shot down as a way to defeat

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352 shot down as a way to defeat



This article is an abbreviated chapter of “352 shot down as a way to defeat” from Alexei Isaev’s book Ten Myths about World War II.

Shock

When for the first time in the national press the personal accounts of German fighter pilots were published in a small article in the newspaper Argumenty i Fakty for 1990, for three the three-digit numbers came as a shock. It turned out that the blond 23-year-old Major Erich Hartmann claimed 352 shot down aircraft, including Soviet 348 and four US. His colleagues in the 52 th fighter squadron of the Luftwaffe Gerhard Barkhorn and Günther Rall announced the 301 and 275 downed, respectively. These figures contrasted sharply with the results of the best Soviet fighter pilots, the 62 victories of I.N. Kozhedub and 59 - A.I. Pokryshkina. More detailed information about the Luftwaffe aces turned out to be even more shocking. It turned out that the Germans had more than 5 pilots in the terminology of the Allies (that is, having shot down 3000 and more enemy aircraft). Hartmann and Barkhorn with more than three hundred victories were only the tip of the iceberg. More 13 fighter pilots of the Luftwaffe scored from 200 to 275 victories, 92 - between 100 and 200, 360 - between 40 and 100. Immediately heated debates flared up about the method of counting downed, confirming the success of the fighter pilots by ground services, photo guns, etc. The main thesis, designed to remove tetanus from three-digit numbers, was: "It was the wrong bees, and they made the wrong honey." That is, the Luftwaffe aces lied about their successes, and in reality they shot down no more planes than Pokryshkin and Kozhedub. However, few people thought about the feasibility and validity of a frontal comparison of the results of combat activities of pilots who fought in different conditions, with different intensity of combat work. No one tried to analyze the value of such an indicator as the “largest number of people shot down” from the point of view of the body of the air force of this particular country as a whole. What are hundreds of shot down, biceps girth or fever patient's body temperature?

The answer to this question is not at all as obvious as it might seem at first glance. As a rule, the individual pilot accounts of the party that loses the air war are higher. I emphasize not one, two or three battles, but a war in the air as a chain of battles. This phenomenon manifested itself in the First World War. For example, the German pilot Manfred von Richthoffen shot down 80 Allied planes - the highest result among fighter pilots of 1914-1918. In World War II, all this was repeated, and not only on the Soviet-German front. The Pacific also had its own hartmanns. Japanese marine lieutenant aviation Tetzugo Iwamato shot down seven F4F Waldcat fighters, four P-38 Lightning, forty-eight F4U Corsair, two P-39 Aero Cobra, one P-40, twenty-nine F6F Hellket, one R-47 Thunderbolt, four Spitfires, forty-eight SBD Downtless bombers, eight B-25 bombers. Only over Rabaul did he gain 142 victories in air battles, and in total he accounted for 202 (!!!) aircraft shot down personally, 26 - in the group, 22 unofficial victories. And this is against the background of a rather sluggish interest in Japanese propaganda in the individual accounts of naval fighter pilots. The above list is actually the pilot’s personal records of the results of the battles that he conducted on his own initiative. Another Japanese fighter pilot, Lieutenant Hirooshi Nishizawa, shot down 103 (according to other sources - 86) American planes. The most successful American pilot in the same theater of operations, Richard Ira Bong, shot down 2,5 times less than his opponent from the Land of the Rising Sun. Bong has even fewer aircraft than I.N. Kozheduba - 40. The “low-intensity conflict” —the Soviet-Japanese border incident near the Khalkhin-Gol river — demonstrates an absolutely identical picture. Japanese Hiromichi Sinohara claimed 58 downed Soviet aircraft from May 1939 until his death on August 28 of that year. The best Soviet pilot Khalkhin-Gola, Sergey Gritsevets, had 12 Japanese aircraft on his account.

It is this effect that deserves close analysis. However, before turning to the analysis of the accounts of aces as an indicator of the activities of the Air Force of a particular country, it makes sense to deal with the burning question of confirming victories.

"The right bees"

Attempts to explain the difference in the number brought down by the vicious method of counting do not hold water. Serious blunders in confirming the results of fighter pilots are found in both sides of the conflict. This fact can be illustrated by the example of the battles on Khalkhin-Gol in 1939. Despite the relatively modest forces of the USSR and Japan ground forces involved in the battles on the territory of Mongolia, one of the most intense air battles of the Second World War unfolded in the air. It was a large-scale air battle involving hundreds of aircraft, which unfolded over a relatively small area of ​​contact between the troops of the parties. Moreover, most of the efforts of aviation, over 75% of sorties, were aimed at fighting for air supremacy, that is, air battles themselves and strikes against airfields. The armies of Japan and the USSR had not yet been drawn into large-scale hostilities, and considerable aviation forces could be thrown into battle, with pilots already trained in peacetime in the cockpits. As a result of the conflict, the Japanese side announced the destruction of 1162 Soviet aircraft in air battles and 98 on the ground. In turn, the Soviet command estimated the loss of the Japanese in 588 aircraft in air battles and 58 combat aircraft on the ground. However, the real losses of both sides at Khalkhin Gol are much more modest. Combat losses of the Soviet Air Force amounted to 207 aircraft, non-combat - 42. The Japanese side reported on 88 downed aircraft and 74 written off due to combat damage. Thus, the Soviet data on the losses of the enemy (and, as a consequence, the personal accounts of the pilots) were exaggerated four times, and the Japanese six times. Practice has shown that the “Khalkhingol coefficient” 1: 4 of overestimating the losses of the enemy remained in the Red Army Air Force in the future. There were deviations from it both upwards and downwards, but on average it can be taken as calculated when analyzing the actual performance of the Soviet aces.

The reason for such discrepancies lies on the surface. The enemy's aircraft was considered to be shot down, for example, according to a report of a fighter pilot who claimed to destroy him, "randomly fell down and disappeared into the clouds." Often, it was the change in the flight parameters of the enemy’s aircraft that was observed by the witnesses of the battle, a sharp decline, a corkscrew began to be considered a sign sufficient to credit the victory. It is not difficult to guess that after the “indiscriminate fall” the plane could have been leveled by a pilot and safely returned to the airfield. In this respect, the fantastic accounts of the Flying Fortresses air gunners, which Messerschmitts chalked up each time they went off the attack, leaving behind a smoke trail, are indicative. This trace was a consequence of the features of the work of the Me.109 motor, which gave a smoky exhaust afterburner and in an inverted position.

What were the means of the pilot to determine the destruction of the enemy aircraft, in addition to changing the flight parameters? Fixing one, two, three or even ten hits on an enemy aircraft did not at all guarantee its disabling. The hits of the machine guns of the rifle caliber of the times of Khalkhin-Gol and the initial period of the Second World War were easily transferred by the 30 – 40 aircraft assembled from aluminum and steel pipes. Even an I-16 fuselage glued from veneer kept up to several dozen hits. All-metal bombers returned from battlefield, covered with open poles, hundreds of bullet holes from rifle caliber bullets. All this did not in the best way affect the reliability of the results announced by the pilots of the participating countries. The Finnish war that followed Khalkhin Gol once again demonstrated the same tendency. Soviet pilots, according to official figures, shot down Finnish aircraft 427 in air battles at the cost of losing their 261. The Finns declared 521 shot down by a Soviet aircraft. In reality, the Finnish Air Force performed 5693 combat sorties, their losses in air battles amounted to 53 aircraft, another 314 machine was hit by Soviet anti-aircraft artillery. As we see, the “Halkingol coefficient” has been preserved.

Confirmation of victories in the Air Force

When the Great Patriotic War broke out, no fundamental changes occurred. If there was a standard form in the Luftwaffe that was filled in by the pilot after the battle, then in the Red Army Air Force there was no such formalization of the process. The freestyle pilot gave a description of the air combat, sometimes illustrating it with the schemes of the evolution of his and the enemy aircraft. In the Luftwaffe, such a description was only the first step in informing the command of the results of the battle. At first Gefechtsbericht was written - a report on the fight, then it was filled out on an Abschussmeldung typewriter - a report form about the destruction of an enemy plane. In the second document, the pilot answered a number of questions relating to the consumption of ammunition, the distance of the battle, and indicated on the basis of what he concluded that the destruction of the enemy aircraft.

Naturally, when conclusions about the results of the attack were made on the basis of common words, problems arose even with the fixation of the results of air battles conducted over their territory. Let's take the most typical example, the air defense of Moscow, the pilots of the well-trained 34 th Fighter Wing. Here are lines from the report presented at the end of July 1941 by the regimental commander Major L.G. Rybkin commander of the air corps:

“... On the second flight of 22 July to 2.40 in the Alabino-Naro-Fominsk region at the height of 2500, m Captain MG Trunov caught up with “Ju88” and attacked from the rear hemisphere. Opponent down to shaving. Captain Trunov rushed forward and lost his opponent. You can assume the plane shot down. "

“... During the second take-off of July 22 at 23.40 in the Vnukovo region, ml. Lieutenant A.G. Lukyanov was attacked by “Ju88” or “Do215”. In the area of ​​Borovsk (in 10 – 15 km north of the airfield) three long lines were launched on a bomber. From the ground were well visible hits. The enemy fired back, and then dropped sharply. You can assume the plane shot down. "

"... Ml. Lieutenant N.G. July 22 chipper in 2.30 near Naro-Fominsk from the 50 distance, released two lines into a twin-engine bomber. At this time, the MiG-3 opened fire anti-aircraft artillery, and the enemy aircraft was lost. You can assume the plane shot down. "

It is not hard to guess that “two lines” or even “three long lines” from one 12,7-mm machine gun “BS” and two 7,62-mm machine guns “ShKAS” of the MiG-3 fighter - not enough to ensure defeat of the Ju88 class bomber or “Do215” (rather, it was still the 217 “Dornier”). Moreover, the consumption of ammunition was not specified, and the term “long line” did not reveal in any way in pieces of bullets of two calibers. It was unwarranted optimism to “put down enemy aircraft” in all these three cases.
At the same time, reports of this kind were typical of the initial period of war for the Soviet air forces. And although in each case, the commander of the air division notes that "there is no evidence" (there is no information about the fall of enemy aircraft), in all these episodes, victories were recorded at the expense of the pilots and the regiment. The result of this was a very significant discrepancy in the number of downed Luftwaffe bombers claimed by Moscow air defense pilots with their actual losses. In July, the 1941 of Moscow’s air defenses conducted 89 battles during the 9 raids of German bombers, in August the 81 battles during the 16 raids. It was announced 59 downed "vultures" in July and 30 - in August. The enemy’s documents are confirmed by the 20 – 22 of the aircraft in July and 10 – 12 in August. The number of victories pilots air defense turned out to be overestimated by about three times.

Confirmation of victories "they have"

Opponents of our pilots on the other side of the front and allies spoke in the same spirit. In the first week of the war, on June 30, 1941, over Dvinsky (Daugavpils), a grand air battle took place between the DB-3, DB-3F, SB and Ar-2 bombers of three Baltic Air Force regiments fleet and two groups of the 54th fighter squadron of the 1st German air fleet. In total 99 Soviet bombers took part in a raid on bridges at Daugavpils. Only German fighter pilots declared 65 downed Soviet aircraft. Erich von Manstein writes in “Lost Victories”: “In one day, our fighters and anti-aircraft artillery shot down 64 aircraft.” The real losses of the Baltic Fleet Air Force amounted to 34 aircraft shot down, and another 18 were damaged, but safely landed on their own or the nearest Soviet airfield. At least twice the victory declared by the pilots of the 54th fighter squadron of victories over the real losses of the Soviet side is emerging.

Writing to your account by a fighter pilot of an enemy plane, safely reaching out to its aerodrome, was a common occurrence. For example, one of the most famous German aces, Werner Melders, in the landfill conditions of the “strange war” 26 in March 1940, fired at Hurricane Sergeant N. Orton, who, despite the damage, reached its airfield. The problem was primarily that the fighter pilot had something to do in the air, in addition to observing the behavior of his victim after firing at her. Do not forget that the speed of the aircraft began 40-x. already measured hundreds of kilometers per hour, and any evolution immediately dramatically changed the position of opponents in space to a complete loss of visual contact. A pilot who had just fired at an enemy plane could have been attacked by another fighter and could not see the real results of his fire. It is all the more strange to hope that other pilots will be closely watching the downed. Even slave- "Kachmarik" were primarily engaged in protecting the tail of his master. The need to intelligibly cover the details of the battle in Gefechtsbericht and Abschussmeldung did not fundamentally solve the problem. A typical example is an episode from the book of R. Toliver and T. Constable about Hartmann:

“The rest of the squadron pilots dragged the happy Blonde Knight to the dining room. The party was in full swing when Bimmel broke in (Hartmann's technician. - AI). The expression on his face instantly extinguished the jubilation of the crowd.
- What happened, Bimmel? - asked Erich.
- Gunsmith, Herr Lieutenant.
- Something is wrong?
- No, everything is okay. You just made all the 120 shots on the 3 downed aircraft. I think you need to know this.
A whisper of admiration ran through the pilots, and the schnapps again flowed like a river. ” [85– C.126]

Admiration for admiration, but the enemy of Hartmann in that battle were the Il-2 attack planes, rather strong planes. The task of the points "consumption of ammunition" and "shooting distance" in Abschussmedlung was to establish the probability of destroying the enemy aircraft. Total 120 shots at three downed should have been alarming. The rules of air shooting and low probability of hitting from a mobile platform has not been canceled. However, such mundane considerations could not spoil the people holiday and prevent the river from flowing to schnapps.

The battles between the “Flying Fortresses”, “Mustangs”, “Thunderbolts” of the USA and the Reich air defense fighters generated a completely identical picture. In the course of a typical air battle for the Western front, which unfolded during the raid on Berlin 6 in March 1944, the escort fighter pilots declared 82 destroyed, 8 allegedly destroyed and 33 damaged German fighters. Bomber shooters reported 97 destroyed, 28 allegedly destroyed and 60 damaged German air defense fighters. If you add these applications together, it turns out that the Americans destroyed or damaged 83% of the German fighters who took part in repelling the raid! The number of declared as destroyed (that is, the Americans were sure of their death) - 179 machines - more than twice the actual number of shot down, 66 fighter "Me.109", "FV-190" and "Me.110". In turn, the Germans immediately after the battle reported on the destruction of 108 bombers, 20 escort fighters. Another 12 bombers and fighters were listed among the alleged downed. In fact, the US Air Force lost 69 bombers and 11 fighters during this raid. Note that in the spring of 1944, both sides had photo guns.

Effect of scale

Discuss the accuracy of the stated results can be indefinitely. The fact remains that the official number of victories in an air battle for a pilot of any country is a numerical figure, recalculated with a certain coefficient to the real number of enemy aircraft shot down. This is neither bad nor good, this is a fact. If we, for good reason, question the results of the German aces, then the same doubts may arise with respect to the Soviet aces and aces of the USSR allies in the anti-Hitler coalition.

Accordingly, in any case, a significant gap remains between the accounts of the German fighter pilots and the Allied aces. Therefore, it makes sense to simply understand the causes of this phenomenon, and not to fence the myths about some special technique of counting downed. The reason for the high accounts of the Luftwaffe aces lies in the heavy use of air forces by the Germans (6 departures per day for one pilot in large-scale operations) and the presence of a larger number of targets due to the Allies ’superiority — the likelihood of an enemy aircraft flying in the sky was higher. The German top ace, Erich Hartmann, had 1425 combat missions, Gerhard Barkhorn had 1104 departures, and Walter Krupinski (197 wins) had 1100 sorties. I.N. Kozhedub had just 330 departures. If we divide the number of sorties by the number of those shot down, then both the German top-aces and the best Soviet fighter pilot get about 4 – 5 sorties for one victory.

It is easy to guess that if Ivan Nikitich carried out 1425 sorties, the number of those shot down from him could easily surpass three hundred. But there was no practical sense in this. If you need to perform 60 sorties a day to solve the problems of covering your bombers, ground troops, intercepting enemy bombers, you can make them dozens of planes, exhausting pilots with six sorties a day, or sixty planes with one sorting a day for a pilot. The leaders of the Red Army Air Force chose the second option, the command of the Luftwaffe - the first. In fact, any German ace did a hard job for himself and “that guy.” In turn, “that guy” at best got to the front in 1944 with a scanty raid and got off in the first battle, and in the worst case he died with a Faustpatron in his hands under the Soviet caterpillars tanks somewhere in Courland. An example of micro-air force with a high rated performance gives us Finland. The Brewster Model 239, which was delivered in the amount of 43 units, was used as a characteristic aircraft for this country, and was used as part of a regiment of four squadrons of eight aircraft each, that is, in the amount of 32 aircraft. The American fighter did not shine with technical characteristics, but had a good view from the cockpit and a radio station on each machine.

The latter factor facilitated the targeting of fighters from the ground. From 25 June 1941 to 21 in May 1944, the pilots of the Finnish Brewster announced 456 shot down at the cost of losing 21 cars (including 15 shot down in air battles and 2 destroyed at the airfield). Total 1941 – 1944 The Finnish air force destroyed Soviet aircraft in the air 1567. These victories won all 155 pilots, of which 87 - more than half (!), The highest percentage among the Air Force of the world - received the title of ace. The most productive were: Eino Yuutilaynen (94 wins, 36 of them on Brewster), Hans Wind (75, of which 39 on Brewster) and Eino Luukaen (51, mostly on Me.109). But, despite such a blissful picture of the accounts of the aces, it cannot be said that the Finns effectively defended the territory of their country from the influence of the Red Army air force and provided effective support to the ground forces. In addition, the Finns did not shine a system for confirming victories. One of the Finnish aces declared the destruction of the P-38 "Lightning" aircraft in air combat (!!!) with Soviet identification marks. Here it is time to think about the bold experiments with the drink of the Vikings from the fly agaric.

Six departures per day

The high intensity of the use of Luftwaffe aircraft was the result of the strategy of the Third Reich top leadership to cover a huge front with clearly insufficient means for this task. German pilots fought almost continuously. Depending on the situation, they were shuffled between different sectors of the front in accordance with the conducted defensive or offensive operations. For examples go far is not required. In the course of his combat debut on the Eastern Front in the fall and winter of 1942, the FW-190 fighter had to participate in three major operations at once. With the new fighters, the I group 51 of the fighter squadron was re-equipped, withdrawn from the front in August 1942, and returning back to the Focke-Wulfs on September 6. The first battles of the group on the new aircraft were the battles of September - October 1942 near Leningrad. During this period, the Germans, by transferring E. von Manstein's 11 Army from the Crimea, tried to take the city by storm, and the restored Soviet 2 Shock Army — to break through the blockade.

The result of this was the encirclement of a part of the forces of the 2 shock army with the forces of the XXX corps of Manstein's army. The battle took place in a tense struggle in the air. The next program number for pilots "Fokkerov" was the operation "Mars", which began in late November 1942 g. After the completion of the "Mars" in December 1942 g. 51-I fighter squadron relocated to the ice airfield of Lake Ivan. Here until January 1943, I and II groups of the squadron fought in the area surrounded by the Soviet Union Great Onions until the capture of the city by the Red Army. In these battles 12 December 1942, the commander of the group Heinrich Kraft was killed (78 victories). Then operation “Buffel” followed - a withdrawal of the Model 9 Army from the Rzhevsky bulge. In March, 1943 was in the first group of the 51 squadron, there were only eight combat-ready "FW-190". The transfer from one front to another in 1943 took even greater scope.

Take for example the I and II groups of the 54 th fighter squadron “Green Hearts”, which started the war with the USSR in the Army Group “North”. Moving along with GA “North” to Leningrad, both groups of the squadron get stuck there until 1943. In May 1943, they get into GA “Center” and fight in the Orel region during the “Citadel” period and the “departure” operation that followed the failure Hagen line. In August, 1943 g. I group falls into the GA “Yug” strip, in Poltava, and remains there until October. After that, she is relocated to Vitebsk, and then to Orsha, that is, leads to battles in the subordination of the GA "Center". Only in the summer of 1944, she returns to the “North” GA and ends the war in Courland. A similar path was made by Group II of the Green Heart squadron. In August 1943, the group falls into Ukraine, at the disposal of GA “Yug”, and remains there until March 1944, after which it returns to GA “North”, to the Baltic States. Similar dances were performed by other German fighter flights. For example, I and III groups of the 51 th fighter squadron fought in the “Center” GA, in August 1943 fell under Poltava, and in October returned under Orsha. In 1942, near Kharkov, the Germans concentrated the efforts of their air forces in the Crimea in the first half of May, and then were forced to throw them at a reflection of the Soviet offensive. The Soviet pilots, however, were more attached to their sector of the front. A.I. In his memoirs, Pokryshkin wrote with a certain annoyance: “But then the battle broke out on the Kursk land. We heard about it the same day that our offensive began.

The maps indicated arrows, wedged in the defense of the enemy. Now all thoughts, all feelings were there - near Kursk. We were called hard fights in the areas of Orel and Kharkov. Newspapers reported large air battles. That would be where we, the guards, to turn in full force! But there the pilots successfully did their job without us. ” On the contrary, E. Hartmann, like most of the 52-th Fighter Squadron, was transferred to the south face of the Kursk Bulge and actively participated in the battles. Only in the defensive phase of the Battle of Kursk, E. Hartmann’s score increased from 17 to 39 downed. In total, until 20 of August, the moment of completion of the offensive operation, which was written by A.I. Pokryshkin, the score has risen to 90 "wins." If Pokryshkin and his 16 th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment were given the opportunity to take part in the Battle of Kursk in July-August 1943, he would undoubtedly increase the number of downed dozen or even a dozen. The castling of the 16 Guards Aviation Regiment between various fronts of the southwestern direction could easily increase the score of Alexander Ivanovich to a hundred German aircraft. The absence of the need to castle air regiments between the fronts led to the fact that A.I. Pokryshkin even passed the battle near Kharkov in May of 1942, staying in this period on a relatively quiet section of the 18 of the Southern Front Army.

Combat work only during the periods of active actions of “its” front was aggravated for the Soviet aces by periodically withdrawing their regiments to the rear for re-formation. The air regiment arrived at the front, during the 1 – 2 months it lost its materiel and went down to re-form into the rear. The regiment reorganization system was actively used up to the middle of 1943 (by order of the GKO from 7 in May of 1943). Only later did they begin to introduce replenishment right at the front, as the Germans did. The system of complete reshaping was also harmful by the fact that the regiments at the front were “grinding off” to the “last pilot”. Suffer from this, not only beginners, who passed the hard selection in the Air Force of any country, but also the "middling". After the re-formation, the experienced pilots held out, and the newcomers were again beaten out together with the “middling”. The reshaping was carried out as a result of the most successful units, such as the "regiment of aces", the 434 th Fighter Regiment of Major Kleschev. From May to September 1942 was reformed three times, each time flying away from the front to the rear to receive materiel and replenishment. The same "downtime" caused the rearmament of the regiment. In the transition to a new type of aircraft, the Soviet regiment spent time up to six months on receiving materiel and retraining pilots. For example, the aforementioned 16 th guards air regiment A.I. Pokryshkina was put into retraining at the Aircobras at the end of December 1942, the flights began on 17 in January on 1943, and only 9 went to the front in April of that year. All this shortened the period of stay of the Soviet aces on the front and accordingly narrowed their ability to increase their personal account.

The Luftwaffe strategy allowed to increase the accounts of the aces, but in the long run it was a strategy of defeat. One of the participants in the battle at Khalkhin Gol, the Japanese fighter pilot Ivori Sakai, recalled: “I made 4 – 6 sorties a day and in the evening I got tired so much that when landing I saw almost nothing. The enemy aircraft flew at us like a huge black cloud, and our losses were very heavy. ” The Luftwaffe pilots who fought on both the Western and Eastern fronts in World War II could say the same about themselves. They were called "the most tired people of war." Drawing "abshussbalkenov" was, in fact, a game of young people who have not played a childhood in one place. 87% of Luftwaffe fighter pilots were aged 18 – 25 years. There is nothing surprising in the fact that they were chasing after the external attributes of success.

Aces of the Eastern Front lost in the West?

Since the ratio of the best result of a fighter pilot on the Western Front was just as shocking as on the Eastern one, during the Cold War, the legend of “unreal” Luftwaffe aces in the East was put into circulation. According to this legend, mediocre pilots could shoot down the "Russian plywood", and true professionals fought with noble gentlemen on the "Spitfires" and "Mustangs". Accordingly, having got on the Western front, having joined the zipuns, plow and cucumber brine in the mornings, the aces of the “Green Hearts” died of lightning speed in the mornings. The bogeyman of the supporters of this theory was Hans Philippe, ace of the 54 th fighter squadron with 176 victories in the East and 28 in the West. He is credited with saying “it is better to fight with twenty Russians than with one Spitfire”. He noted that he had experience of fighting with "Spitfires" even before the Eastern Front. In 1943, Philip led the Reich 1 Fighter Squadron, and his return to the Western Front was fatal for him. He was overtaken by the Thunderbolt pilot's turn a few minutes after he himself shot down his first and last four-engined bomber. For six months, the command of the 1 squadron "expert" managed to bring down one "B-17", one "Thunderbolt" and one "Spitfire".

Indeed, there are several examples when fighter pilots who were glittering on the Eastern Front turned out to be far less effective after transferring them to the West to defend the Reich. This is Erich Hartmann himself, who had on his account the entire 4 American "Mustang". This is Günther Rall, who shot down an 272 aircraft in the East and an entire 3 in the West. This is the pilot, the first to reach the line in 200 shot down, Herman Graf with 212 victories on the Eastern Front and the entire 10 - in the West. This is Walter Novotny, who announced the destruction of 255 Soviet aircraft and 3 Allied aircraft. The last example, by the way, can immediately be called the least successful. Nowotny mastered jet fighters and in fact, most of the time in the West struggled with the technical shortcomings of the jet Me.262 and practiced tactics for its combat use. In fact, for Walter Novotny, the first six months in the West were not combat work, but the rest provided by the command to save the pilot with the highest score at that time. Not too convincing on closer inspection, the example of Hartmann - he shot down four Mustangs in just two fights.

However, even if we take these examples unconditionally, they are more than offset by data from other pilots. Walter Dahl, a veteran of the 3 th fighter squadron Udet, had 129 victories in his account, of which 84 on the Eastern Front and 45 on the Western Front. His first victim was a biplane "And-15bis" 22 June 1941, and since December of the same year he had already fought in the Mediterranean. Two years later, 6 December 1943, he knocks down his first “Flying Fortress” in the Reich air defense system. A smaller score on the Western Front is compensated by the quality composition of the downed. Among the 45 victories of Walter Dahl in the West are the 30 four-engined bomber (23 "B-17" "Flying Fortress" and 7 "B-24" "Liberator"). The uniform distribution of victories was generally characteristic of Luftwaffe veterans. Anton Huckl, ace of the 77 th Fighter Squadron, won his first victory on 15 on June 1940 in the sky of Norway. These were the two Hudson's of the Royal Air Force. The 1941 campaign and most of the 1941 campaigns took place on the Eastern Front, where it crossed the line in the downed 100. Then, until the spring of 1943, he fought in the skies of North Africa, and since the fall of 1943, in the air defense of the Reich. Hackle's total score was 192 aircraft, of which 61 were shot down in the West. As in the case of downed Walter Dahl, Hackle has a significant proportion of heavy bombers. Of the 61 wins in the West, more than half, 34 units, are the four-engined B-17 and B-24 bombers. Another famous fighter pilot, Erich Rudorfer, from 222 shot down an 136 aircraft declared on the Eastern Front. That is, on the Eastern Front, they scored a little more than half, 61% wins.

Almost perfect in terms of the balance of success in the West and the East is the account of Herbert Ilefild. A veteran of the Condor Legion, he opened his account in Spain, where 4 E-16, 4 E-15 and 1 SB-2 of the Republican Air Force were his victims. In World War II, he won the first victory in the French campaign. In the summer of 1941, Ilefild hit the Eastern Front, where in April 1942 shot down his 100 aircraft. He commanded the 11 th Fighter Squadron in the West, was killed on 1945 on New Year's Eve during Operation Bodenplate. The total ACA score was 132 aircraft, of which 56 were shot down on the Western Front, 67 on the Eastern Front and 9 in Spain. Of the 56 victories in the West, 17 machines made up the “B-17” “Flying Fortress”. There were generalists in the Luftwaffe who had equally successfully fought in all theaters of operations and in all types of aircraft. Heinz Baer arrived from the Eastern Front in North Africa in October 1942 and shot down 20 enemy fighters for two months - about the same level with which he had fought before on the Eastern Front. The total "African account" of this ace was the 60 of the Allied aircraft. Later on he was equally successful in the defense of the Reich, winning 45 victories in the skies over Germany, including a four-engined bomber shot down 21. The energetic Baer did not stop at that and became the first (!) In terms of effectiveness of the “reactive” ace (16 wins “Me.262”). The total Baer score was 220 downed. Less well-known pilots also demonstrate impressive success in the West. For example, the leader in the Luftwaffe in the number of four-engine bomber shot down (44 units), Herbert Rollweig, from all 102, 11 won all his victories in the East. In most cases, the experience of the war on the Eastern Front in 1941, obtained by the majority of these pilots, contributed to the improvement of flying skill and fighter tactics.

There are also examples of pilots who are successful in the West and have not performed very well in the East. This is the commander of group II 54 th Fighter Squadron Major Hans "Assi" Khan. He served for a long time in the 2 th fighter squadron, was one of the leading aces of the battle for Britain, in the West, Khan won 68 victories. 1942 was transferred to the Eastern Front of Khan in the fall, and he assumed the position of the group commander on November 1. 26 January 1943 Mr. Hans Khan shot down his hundredth plane. Over the next month, the Assi shot down eight more aircraft. 21 February due to engine failure Khan was forced to land in the rear of the Soviet troops south of Lake Ilmen. The next seven years, Hans Khan spent in the Soviet camps. An even more vivid example is the commander of the 27 th fighter squadron, Wolfgang Schellmann, the second most effective ace in the Condor Legion during the Spanish Civil War. He was shot down on the very first day of the war, 22 June 1941, although he was considered a recognized specialist in maneuverable air combat. Joachim Müncheberg after three years on the Western Front (he won the first victory on 7 November 1939) arrived at the 51 th Fighter Squadron on the Eastern Front in August 1942. He was shot down twice in four weeks, although he was considered an expert on combat sung by X. Philip "Spitfires" - there were as many 35 on their account of Müncheberg, two more than his total score in the East, 33 of Soviet aircraft. Siegfried Schnell, who won 87 air victories against the Royal Air Force and the Americans, arrived in the 54 Fighter Squadron on the Eastern Front in February 1944 - two weeks later he died in a battle with Soviet fighters.

The causes of the death of the aces of the Eastern Front in the West should be sought in changing the overall situation in the Reich air defense. During this period, the pilots died, who became recognized as the aces of the Western Front, and not just the "guest performers" from the East. These were also the aces who held the posts of commanders of groups and squadrons. In the autumn of 1943, a veteran of the air war over the Channel Tunnel, Lieutenant Colonel Walter Oesau, was put in charge of the 1 th fighter squadron. Oecay began his combat career in Spain, where he scored eight victories. By the time he was appointed commander of the squadron, the Knight's Cross holder with oak leaves and swords of Oesau had 105 victories, more than half of which he won in the West. But he was destined to lead the squadron less than six months. Fighter "Bf.109G-6" "Oesau" was shot down over the Ardennes 11 in May 1944, after an 20-minute air battle with "Lightnings". There are many such examples. Lieutenant Colonel Egon Meier, being the commander of Group III of the 2 th Fighter Squadron, conducted the first successful frontal attack of the Flying Fortress in November 1942. So the tactics were introduced, which later became the base for the Reich air defense fighters. In June, Meyer replaced 1943. Walter Oesau as commander of the 2 fighter squadron. 5 February 1944 Egon became the first pilot to shoot down 100 aircraft on the Western Front. Less than a month after the anniversary victory, Mayer died in a battle with the Thunderbolt over the Franco-Belgian border. At the time of his death, As was considered a leading Luftwaffe specialist in American heavy bombers: he had 25 B-17 and B-24 on his account. Total Egon Mayer won in the West 102 victory.

Comparing the aces of the East and the West, one should pay attention to fundamentally different conditions of warfare. On the front of a fighter squadron stretched for hundreds of kilometers, somewhere between Velikiye Luki and Bryansk, there was always something to do. For example, the battles for the Rzhevsky bulge in 1942 were almost continuous. Six sorties a day were the norm, not something exceptional. When reflecting the “Flying Fortress” raids, the nature of the battles was fundamentally different. A typical raid, a strike on Berlin 6 in March of 1944, took place with the participation of 814 bombers and 943 fighters. The first plane took off at 7.45 in the morning, the coastal line of bombers crossed only at the eleventh hour, the last got into 16.45. Bombers and fighters were in the air over Germany just a few hours. To make even two flights in such conditions was a great success. Moreover, the entire mass of escort fighters was in the air in a relatively small space, reducing the duel from air defense to a kind of “general battle”, realizing in practice its numerical advantage. On the Eastern Front, battles were fought around relatively small groups of strike aircraft.

Alfred Grislavski, led by Herman Graf, said that "the Russians had a different tactic - their main task was to attack our ground troops, and therefore we often managed to attack them with a big advantage from our side." Indeed, when the enemy is the Pe-2 eight with a fighter cover of eight Yaks, you can immediately throw an entire squadron of 12 aircraft on it, three Schwarm four planes, and in an hour attack the same Il-2 group with similar destructive cover. In both cases, the attacking "experts" of the Luftwaffe will have a numerical advantage. This was achieved using radio guidance. In the air defense of the Reich, pilots had to attack at once a large mass of bombers, concealed by an equally large mass of fighters. It is the same to encounter in the East on 7 thousand meters with several Soviet air armies. On the Eastern Front, major “general battles” in the air were rare, in the Reich air defenses each raid became such a battle. But not the heavy bombers themselves were the main problem.

The horrors of the Western Front, often cited by Western authors, performed by Hans Phillip describe the attack of the B-17 system very colorfully: “When you attack a system from 40“ Fortresses ”, all your last sins flash in a flash in a flash. With such sensations, it is getting harder for me to demand from every pilot of the squadron, especially from the youngest noncoms, that they fight just like me. ” However, these horror stories are not supported by statistics. There are very few reliable examples of the death of aces or at least of the commanders of groups / squadrons from defensive fire of four-engined bombers. Quickly enough, the "experts" of the Luftwaffe developed a tactic of attacking a system of heavy bombers in the forehead, which made it possible to avoid massive fire of defensive machine guns. Philip himself was killed by the convoy of an escort fighter pilot. On the contrary, it is possible to immediately name several names of the German aces, who became victims of air gunners on the Eastern Front. The most famous of them is Otto Kittel, the fourth in the list of the best aces of the Luftwaffe. His career was interrupted by the turn of the gunner "IL-2" 14 February 1945. Another well-known example is the promising young ace, 20-year-old Berliner Hans Strehl (67 wins), in March 1942, who fell victim to the arrow "Pe-2". The commander of group II 53 of the fighter squadron Hauptmann Bretnets 22 June 1941 was seriously wounded from "ShKAS" by the shooter "SB-2", later died in the hospital. In short, the great and terrible arrows of the “Flying Fortresses” were not much better than the gunners of attack aircraft and nearby bomber. One factor compensated for another: the “box” of heavy bombers created dense defensive fire, while more compact single-and twin-engined airplanes made the attackers move closer to them for a smaller distance.

The war in the West was, in essence, catching the Luftwaffe fighters against a giant “livebone” - a “gut” stretched for tens and hundreds of kilometers from the “B-17” and “B-24” boxes under the cover of fighters. Under these conditions, it was easier for the Americans to realize their numerical advantage than the Red Army air force.

Place aces in the Red Army Air Force

On the one hand, the high performance of the pilots was maintained by the command of the Red Army Air Force. Cash prizes were awarded for the downed enemy aircraft, for a certain number of fighter pilots shot down were presented for awards. But, on the other hand, there was an incomprehensible indifference to the formalization of the accounting process for downed and personal accounts of pilots. In the paperwork reporting of the Soviet aviation units were not introduced any forms for accounting downed, filled in by the pilot after a successful "hunt". This looks rather strange against the background of the ever-increasing formalization of reporting starting from 1942. Printed forms of the combat and numerical composition of the units and loss accounting (the so-called form No. 8) were introduced by typographical means. Even the condition of the horse was reported by filling out a special form. In 1943, all of these reporting forms were further developed, forms were becoming more and more complex and refined. Came across real masterpieces of stationery painting, next to which Malevich’s Black Square looks like a pathetic craftsman. But amidst all this diversity of reporting forms, there are no forms for pilots to fill in as reports of downed aircraft. Pilots still wrote to the best of their literary abilities and knowledge of spelling and punctuation, describing a free-form air combat. Sometimes, from the pen of military officers, quite detailed reports were issued indicating the distances of firing and maneuvering schemes, which were significantly superior to the informativeness of the Germans' Abschussmeldungi. But on the whole, the top command seemed not very interested in reports of downed enemy aircraft. The reliability of these reports "above" was evaluated quite skeptically, from time to time lightning was falling down when the statistics looked absolutely unconvincing. All this suggests that the statistics of the victories were needed primarily by the pilots themselves. Let me remind you that the term “al” was originally introduced by the French into the First World War. The purpose of the newspaper hype around the names of the best pilots was to attract young people to military aviation. Often, the very routine and dangerous work of a military pilot gave a sporty spirit and aroused hunting excitement.

Another interesting fact can be noticed if we analyze the reliability of the victories declared by the pilot after the fact, using the data of the enemy. Such an analysis, for example, was conducted by the aforementioned Y. Rybin in relation to several North Sea pilots, in particular, one of the most famous Soviet aces, after the war Commander of the Air Force, P.S. Kutakhov. It turns out that many aces have the first two, three, or even six victories are not confirmed. At the same time, everything goes much more vigorously in the future, confirmation is already found for several victories in a row. And here we come to the main point, which was given marks on the aircraft shot down. They gave the pilot confidence in their abilities. Let us imagine for a moment that instead of a real system of record-keeping of victories, we have a boring, multi-stage check with the search for the carcass of the declared “Messer” in the forest more often. If it turns out that the enemy’s aircraft “gone with a decrease” or “randomly falling” aircraft was not actually shot down, this would be a big blow for the novice pilot. On the contrary, the label drawn after “leaving with a decrease” will add to the enthusiasm of the pilot. He will be more confident to maneuver, not to be afraid of engaging in battle with a dangerous opponent. He will step over the main obstacle - the feeling of the invulnerability of the enemy. If tomorrow he was sent to accompany the stormtroopers, he would already be confidently glancing across the sky. Not the animal fear of the unknown lies in his heart, but the excitement of a hunter waiting for a victim. Yesterday's cadet becomes a full fighter pilot.

In the Field Charter of the Red Army, the tasks of aviation were described quite clearly: “The most important task of aviation is to contribute to the success of ground troops in combat and operation” [45– C.23]. Not the destruction of enemy aircraft in the air and at airfields, but the promotion of ground forces. In essence, the activity of fighter aircraft is aimed at ensuring the activities of strike aircraft and covering their troops. Accordingly, a certain number of strike aircraft required an equal or even slightly larger number of fighter aircraft. Why - quite obvious. Firstly, attack aircraft need to be covered, and secondly, fighters always have independent tasks to cover the troops and important objects. For each of these fighters need a pilot.

The main thesis to which attention should be paid is a comparison of the real effectiveness of the Air Force and the accounts of the aces. For example, Soviet assault air regiments in Romania in 1944 could have made thousands of sorties, dropped many tons of bombs, and never met the Luftwaffe fighter and Hartmann in particular. The planes shot down by Hartmann and Barkhorn at the same time gave a few percent of the total number of sorties of the Soviet Air Forces in this direction, significantly lower than the losses due to piloting errors and technical malfunctions. Work in the mode of megaasov, making six sorties a day and covering a large front, is an abnormal situation. Yes, they can easily score bills, but the Air Force as a whole will not at the same time solve the task of covering its troops, or influencing the conduct of operations with air strikes. Just because the sorties of a small group of “experts” cannot physically cover all these tasks. On the contrary, ensuring the numerical superiority of their air forces over the enemy does not at all favor the rapid build-up of a personal account. The pilots make one or two sorties a day, and in the case of massaging efforts by the Air Force towards the main attack of the ground forces, the probability of meeting an enemy plane decreases exponentially. Let me explain this thesis by simple calculation.

Let the "blue" five fighters and five bombers, and the "red" twenty fighters and twenty-five bombers and attack aircraft. For example, during several air battles, the “blue” lose all five bombers and one fighter, and the “red” lose five fighters and five bombers and attack aircraft. In this case, the possibilities of the "blue" to influence the advancing "red" are equal to zero, and the "red" retain 75% of their initial shock capabilities. Moreover, the remaining 20 bombers and attack aircraft of the “red” 100 combat missions drop thousands of tons of bombs on the 2 enemy, while 5 bombers of the “blue” ones have time to make 50 departures and drop 250 tons of bombs. Accordingly, the loss of ten “red” planes leads to an increase in the personal account of ace X. “blue” on 30 units (taking into account the usual in such cases overestimation of the actual results of the battles). Six blue planes actually shot down increase the personal account of the aces K. and P. for five victories each, and two more victories are recorded by the novice aces V. and L. As a result of the war, it is quite possible that the pilot X. of the "blue" pick up 352 downed, and the pilots K. and P. "red" - 62 and 59, respectively. The effectiveness of the actions of the Air Force as a whole is clearly not in favor of the "blue" ones; they drop fewer bombs and slightly reduce the strike power of enemy aircraft with the actions of their fighters.

A collision of equal forces would not lead to a sharp increase in the personal accounts of one pilot, the result of the air combat would inevitably be spread over many pilots. The path to high personal accounts is through a war with a superior enemy force with a small number of its pilots. If, in this example, one fighter and five bomber "blue" fought one bomber and one fighter "red", then the pilot "red" K. would have every chance to get not a measly two wins, but all three or four. Especially when setting the problem in the form of "hit and run." On the contrary, the Aesy "blue" with difficulty divided the only downed bomber. In a word, there is a choice between riding and "checkers", external attributes in the face of stars on the fuselage or stripes on the keel and the results achieved by the Air Force. To organize the three-digit accounts of the aces, in essence, did not constitute a technical problem. For this, it would be necessary to abandon the mass production of aircraft and the mass training of fighter pilots. The lucky few would be given custom-made aircraft, the engine parts of which were manually adjusted to each other, made for these aircraft in a laboratory way, as for ANT-25, in which V.P. Chkalov flew to America across the pole. One could not even suffer and arm with “Spitfires”, hand-assembled by “Uncles John”, who had decades behind them at the machine. A. Pokryshkin and I. Kozhedub on such piece planes would attack the German squadrons, delivering strikes on the "hit and run" principle and carrying out six sorties a day. In this case, in two years, it would be quite realistic for them to recruit 300 downed by a brother. It would have ended with the stop of the Germans on the line Arkhangelsk - Astrakhan. For the ground forces, this threatened the anecdotal situation, “but there will be no air support - the pilot got sick.” Almost in the spirit of this immortal anecdote, events developed in Kurland in the winter of 1945. Then, after the death of Otto Kittel, the ace from the 54 fighter squadron, the infantrymen fell into despondency: "Kittel died, now we are surely the end." But after the war, 267 will be proud of the victories of Kittel himself. It is not surprising that the Red Army Air Force refused such dubious happiness.

In the USSR, a choice was made quite consciously in favor of the mass air force with an average level subsidence that was inevitable for any mass event. Airplanes of the mass series, manufactured by “fabzaychaty”, lost the technical characteristics of the experimental machines due to the violation of geometry, quality of finish. The need to ensure the mass of cars with fuel led to a reduction in fuel requirements, instead of laboratory 100-octane gasoline, which consumed a barrel of crude oil per liter, 78 octane gas was supplied for catalytic cracking. Worse fuel reduced the power of an already mediocre engine, reducing the flight qualities of a glider with disturbed geometry. At the same time, the aircraft itself was originally designed for mass production with the replacement of scarce materials with wood and steel. However, the presence of a large mass of aircraft made it possible to give the best young people of the nation not a rifle or machine gun, but a powerful and maneuverable weapon of warfare. They were already able to protect the infantrymen from the bomber with a ton of bombs, to ensure the actions of their more experienced colleagues in aerial combat, and in the end to get a chance to become an ace himself.

There is a famous statement by I.V. Stalin: "we have no irreplaceable." In these words was the whole materialistic philosophy of the Soviet leadership. It would be absurd for him to base a strategy on personalities. The combat capability of an air force operating at a front hundreds of kilometers above the heads of hundreds of thousands of people should not depend on the mood and moral and physical well-being of one or even ten people. If a megaac makes a mistake and is shot down, then this loss will be, firstly, very sensitive, and secondly, difficult to recover. Formation of a megaas similar to Hartmann, Barkhorn or Novotny is a matter of several years, which simply will not be at the right moment. In war, the inevitable loss of both people and technology. This is especially true of the Air Force - in the Soviet 1941 mobilization plan, the loss of the pilots was rightly assumed to be the highest among the combat arms. Accordingly, the task of command is to form a mechanism for effectively compensating for these losses. From this point of view, massive air forces are more stable. If we have three hundred fighters, then even the loss of a few dozen pilots will not be fatal for us. If we have ten fighters, half of which are megaasy, among them, the loss of five people can be a heavy blow. Moreover, a heavy blow primarily to ground troops, the notorious "Kittel died, and now we have a cover."

* * *


The number of claimed downed is not an objective indicator when comparing the Air Force of the two countries. The number of “Abshussbalkenov” or “asterisks” on the fuselage drawn on the tail is an objective indicator of the pilot's skill within the Air Force of this particular country, nothing more. Three-digit accounts of aces can be achieved by deliberately choosing to conduct an air war with the numerical superiority of the enemy and the constant castling of air units and formations from passive sections of the front into the thick of battle. But this approach weapon double-edged and most likely lead to the loss of the air war. In short, the reason for the difference in pilot accounts can be explained as follows:
1) Scale effect, or, if you will, “hunter effect”. If one hunter enters a forest with five pheasants, then he will have a chance to bring 2 – 3 birds home. If, on the contrary, five hunters go into the forest for one pheasant, any skill will result in only one carcass of an unfortunate bird. The same in the war in the air. The number of shot down is directly proportional to the number of targets in the air.
2) Intensive use of the Air Force by the Germans. Performing six sorties a day with constant movement along the front line to counter crises or conduct offensive operations, it is easy to knock down more over a long period than performing one sortie a day, remaining all the time on the same front line.
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  1. apro
    apro 11 October 2015 05: 27 New
    +27
    Lacking the professionalism of German experts and the organization of the Luftwaffe combat work, the vicious practice of showing off in the form of large numbers led to the defeat, what is the use of hundreds of badges on the keel when Berlin fell? any resistance demoralizes the enemy. It is not necessary to be ashamed that the USSR won the war and, including producing more planes and preparing more pilots, this speaks of only one country the country could and gave The armies are all for victory and Germany is not, therefore, our country is stronger and was able to protect its citizens. The practice of any armies in all wars has been rigged by the results of air battles, but it plays a propaganda wheel, but having got out of control it stupefies the jugglers themselves.
    1. venaya
      venaya 11 October 2015 05: 43 New
      +22
      Quote: apro
      ... Juggling the results of air battles, the ubiquitous practice of any armies in all wars, even plays a propaganda wheel, but coming out of control stupefies the jugglers themselves.

      I agree with your position, only a small clarification. Not only in WWII, but also in the war of 1812, exactly the same picture took place. Unable to win in real hostilities, following the results of the war, a similar propaganda company was also conducted to not achieve these results, and I am not sure that it was unsuccessful. On the contrary, so far we all feel its traces in the form of various gossip, etc. What to speak of wars in the XNUMXth century, the situation here is even worse. Abroad, all the results of the past WWII war were practically rewritten, on an ideological level, and something needs to be done with this, and urgently, before it is too late. We must fight for the minds, this is one of our main tasks, and almost a priority.
      1. smershxnumx
        smershxnumx 11 October 2015 17: 36 New
        +2
        Sorry! And did anyone plus all the declared downed planes with all these "aces"? Something seems to me that the tsifir will turn out to be prohibitive ... We had so many planes ... And all the shot down - even more so !!! hi Divide by 10 - it will be like the truth ...
        1. doxtop
          doxtop 12 October 2015 00: 56 New
          +4
          You are the right colleague!
          Somehow I asked myself this question, and after many days of wandering around and the Internet, there was something like this:
          In total, during the war years the USSR produced (something around) 75 thousand aircraft. According to the victory lists of fascist pilots (I found a list with victories - from 50 planes per pilot), it turned out that about 500 pilots shot down about 50 thousand planes !!!
          50000 aircraft !!!!! But in the Luftwaffe there were much more of these 500 pilots, and the list of aircraft shot down by them (following the "Western" logic) should also be not so small at all!
          Total it turns out that the brave German warriors beat% 20-30% more aircraft than the USSR produced in aggregate, but received Lend-Lease.
          And who is asked, I will believe more !? )))
          But, this is the first.
          The second ... in the text was given a very rough assessment of the method of counting downed aircraft (and primarily in relation to the Soviet aces.
          In fact, for a Red Army fighter pilot to count a downed plane, he had to:
          1) Provide a report on the downing of the aircraft;
          2) Provide a report to another combat participant (aka pilot) who witnesses that the plane shot down by the first pilot (roughly speaking) "entered the ground";
          3) Provide a list of shot ammunition, disaggregated by caliber;
          4) Written confirmation of a “ground witness”, or a witness of an ASN post about the actual crash of a downed aircraft;
          And the most important thing...
          5) 100% firmly and clearly the fighter pilot recorded a downed plane (after satisfying the above points), only after confirming the crash of the aircraft by a special group that visited the crash site and provided either the engine number or glider number, or whatever else confirms the detail.

          Well, one more addition.
          Soviet fighters always encouraged their wingmen (or beginners) to copy their planes to them. And this is a confirmed fact! So, for example, it is now documented that there were not 59, but more than 75, planes actually shot down by Alexander Pokryshkin! It’s just that Pokryshkin “distributed” all these planes to the pilots of his squadron, regiment.
          The Germans, however, were always terrible sole-manners and did not "write off" their victories to anyone.
          IMHO!
          Yours!
          1. tolancop
            tolancop 12 October 2015 12: 34 New
            +2
            And the most important thing...
            5) 100% firmly and clearly a fighter pilot recorded a downed aircraft (after satisfying the above points), only after confirming the fall of the aircraft by a special group that visited the crash site and provided either the engine number or glider number, or whatever else confirms the detail. .

            I will not refute this statement, but it is doubtful ... It is possible that in some instruction the specified requirement was there, but that it was carefully observed is unlikely.
            In the memoirs of the pilots came across a description of the episode when the pilot did not count the enemy aircraft shot down over enemy territory, since no one could confirm the downing. But after a while the sales was counted ... the confirmation came from where they did not expect - from the reconnaissance group operating in the enemy rear. It is unlikely that the scouts would bother with the search for the engine number, glider, etc., and even more so by dragging and dropping "details". The report probably, among other things, reflected that at such and such a time in such and such a place there was an air battle as a result of which the plane crashed. And that’s all. That was enough.
            In addition, the departures of the aircraft regiment to the crash site are often mentioned, but I don’t remember what they bought out the remains. It’s mentioned that they went for confirmation from ground units, that is: he arrived, received a piece of paper from the local commander that “they saw, we confirm” and that’s all.
          2. Aljavad
            Aljavad 13 October 2015 03: 00 New
            +3
            Well, one more addition.
            Soviet fighters always encouraged their wingmen (or beginners) to copy their planes to them. And this is a confirmed fact! So, for example, it is now documented that there were not 59, but more than 75, planes actually shot down by Alexander Pokryshkin! It’s just that Pokryshkin “distributed” all these planes to the pilots of his squadron, regiment.
            The Germans, however, were always terrible sole-manners and did not "write off" their victories to anyone.
            IMHO!


            All 6 points are true. There is a 7th. The Red Army fighters were NOT tasked with "shooting down aircraft." The tasks were: "isolate the database area", "cover the object from the air" (the positions of the troops or the city, factory, port, etc.). But you can not bring down anyone, but complete the task. And they did it. For this, and thanks to them both from the infantry and from the civilians. That the Junkers dropped bombs into the swamp.

            Well, a shot down plane is like a cherry on a cake!

            But Hartman flew exactly to shoot down. Therefore, Berlin fell. am
      2. vladimirZ
        vladimirZ 12 October 2015 07: 12 New
        +3
        Last night, yesterday, I tried to overcome this article, but I couldn’t, this tiredly written passage from the book didn’t get into my tired head. Read today.
        A good, but not some not entirely open analysis, of the differences between the aces of the “losing side” and the aces of the Winners in the short article of A Isaev’s book. And a little boring, to be honest.
        Briefly outline the essence. Then I want to partially repeat my comment yesterday from the article "Avoid hatred" dedicated to E. Hartmann, a German ace who shot down 352 aircraft.

        In Soviet aviation, unlike German, there was a different tactics of action and a different accounting system for the “shot down”.
        Our fighter aircraft were mainly tasked with:
        - providing cover for troops from air strikes,
        - covering ground important objects from bombing and attack,
        - as well as the protection of bombers, attack aircraft, their protection and escort.
        The overwhelming majority of the Red Army aviation did not set an end in itself to destroy as many enemy aircraft as possible by one group of pilots — super aces. Bet on this was made on a large number of pilots.

        The German fighter aces, on the Eastern Front, were tasked with achieving air supremacy, "free hunting" in choosing a target.
        Moreover, the main bet was on experienced aces - "experts", their maximum use in battles.
        The Germans did not get involved in air combat, where there was the superiority of Soviet aviation. They mostly looked for easy prey, weak young pilots, single aircraft. Among the German pilots there was a "sports" excitement of the competition in terms of the number of victories, actively supported by the German media.
        In the German system of “shot down”, along with a meticulous paper reporting system, there was a procedure for recording “victories” to a pilot, only confirmed by another pilot.

        And for the Soviet pilots, to take into account his personal victory, the main fact was the direct downing of an airplane "on the ground." Moreover, those who fell on the territory of the enemy, and who are not able to be respectively confirmed by ground services, were not counted as pilots.

        The fact that there was a very large combat load on the pilot, due to the lack of flight personnel, also played a big difference in the shot down from German aces.
        So at Hartman the number of sorties and air battles was - 1400/825, respectively, at Kozhedub - 330/120, at Pokryshkin - 650/156.
        Given the effectiveness of combat skill - the number of battles per 1 "shot down", then Kozhedub won the first place - 1,93, only then Hartman - 2,34, and Pokryshkin - 2,64. Moreover, it should be borne in mind that Pokryshkin was not a simple pilot like Hartman and Kozhedub, but since July 1943 the deputy commander of the regiment, since March 1944 the commander of the regiment with a corresponding change in official functions.

        That’s why there is such a big difference in the "shot down" of our aces and Germans. She was, due to these factors, but was not so significant.
  2. blizart
    blizart 11 October 2015 06: 23 New
    +27
    In general, the memoir "conquest" arose massively after the 1812 year. The Austrians and Prussians justified their shameful defeats - the genius of Napoleon, who in turn explained the fall of his genius - to the Russian winter. Only the Russians were modestly silent, because they did everything on the battlefield and in words they had nothing to add.
    1. venaya
      venaya 11 October 2015 07: 27 New
      +8
      Quote: blizart
      ... only Russians were modestly silent, because they did everything on the battlefield and in words they had nothing to add.

      Sorry, again I can not resist: "Only Russians were modestly silent"- again, twenty-five. How much can you step on the same robbery? It is necessary as soon as possible, urgently to understand that they are not talking only guns, they also speak languages, newspapers, books and a stupid TV box. This is also a war, and determine which is the most important thing on it at once and definitely difficult. Sometimes, the most effective heavy weapons are just information, propaganda and misinformation. How many spears are broken on this? But dozens of millions of people suffer from this, so exclude this type of mass weapon defeat lzya unacceptable. It is too much effective and brings irreparable damage.
      1. blizart
        blizart 11 October 2015 09: 13 New
        +6
        Sorry, again I can not resist: “Only the Russians were modestly silent” - again, twenty-five.
        I, your ardent desire to learn from confrontations, accept and support. But in order to learn how to do it in Russian, one must ... stop being Russian. For there is no other nation on Earth who so unsophisticatedly believes every war to be the last, and its experience is unnecessary.
        1. captain
          captain 11 October 2015 10: 48 New
          +3
          I liked the article, the author lucidly explained that there was no need to belittle the enemy and throw his caps on, but at the same time explained that our successes were not less than that of the Americans and Germans. I especially liked his idea of ​​the psychological component of young pilots. That's right, it is imperative that young pilots be given the opportunity to feel like fighters. And not only in aviation, the first victory, even if not confirmed, plays a very large role in the psychological state of a military man.
          1. cth; fyn
            cth; fyn 11 October 2015 11: 18 New
            +1
            It turns out he brought the total percentage of victories for flights and he turned out to be equal.
            1. Scraptor
              Scraptor 11 October 2015 13: 39 New
              +3
              It turns out that the Soviet aces were shot down for 100 or even two hundred, but to confirm their victories, reports of infantry from the land were needed, which was not always possible even over their territory.
              This German specialist knocked down gaping newcomers and, conversely, after a certain number of victories, they completely stopped checking for him according to the personal order of the shekelgruber, which is why their pace increased significantly, which is why he did not receive the highest award (he received only the rudder flying the attack aircraft).
    2. kalibr
      kalibr 11 October 2015 13: 04 New
      0
      And in the silence of the cabinets, where they paid for intelligence to French agents ...
  3. PlotnikoffDD
    PlotnikoffDD 11 October 2015 06: 51 New
    +6
    Their followers outdid their teachers! Look how many Armat have already burned in Ukraine ....
    1. cth; fyn
      cth; fyn 11 October 2015 11: 19 New
      +2
      And then, even because of the computer do not need to go! Burn and burn Almaty and Kurgan.
      1. BMP-2
        BMP-2 11 October 2015 23: 07 New
        +1
        Wow: the Fockevulfs and Tigers evolved to Facebook and Twitter. Moreover, the number of burned "Armat" is considered to be most likely by the number of likes! laughing
  4. bocsman
    bocsman 11 October 2015 07: 42 New
    +11
    There is a very good book by Mukhin, "Assy and Propaganda," everything is very intelligently presented. And the thought is the same exaggerated accounts, the ability to independently choose the goal to increase the personal account and not the task of covering up your troops and led to a legitimate result, collapse!
    1. anip
      anip 11 October 2015 09: 02 New
      +1
      Quote: bocsman
      There is a very good book by Mukhin "Assy and propaganda"

      This is another of those attempts to show their alleged literacy (see article "Richthoffen")? "Asy", is written with one "s".
      1. cth; fyn
        cth; fyn 11 October 2015 11: 22 New
        0
        Pf, grammatos, I'll make a pearl: Asssses - Aces! and the tank is the tank!
        1. Aljavad
          Aljavad 13 October 2015 03: 12 New
          0
          Pf, grammatos, I'll make a pearl: Asssses - Aces! and the tank is the tank!


          Asssses - Tuzzzzy! good
      2. Aljavad
        Aljavad 13 October 2015 03: 11 New
        0
        There is a very good book by Mukhin "Assy and propaganda"
        This is another of those attempts to show their alleged literacy (see article "Richthoffen")? "Asy", is written with one "s".


        ASSA!

        The film was like that. Sentimental. laughing
  5. zoknyay82
    zoknyay82 11 October 2015 08: 52 New
    +4
    Propaganda is, of course, propaganda, but you must also see the coast. Several times downed planes and burned tanks than they were released. As the saying goes, "... gentlemen are taken for granted, and here the card went ... '.
    1. avt
      avt 11 October 2015 09: 28 New
      +4
      Quote: zoknyay82
      Propaganda is, of course, propaganda, but you should also see the coast.

      This is yes, this should always be done when evaluating the facts in comparison.
      Quote: zoknyay82
      . Several times downed planes and burned tanks than they were released. As they say "...

      Well, if you now take advantage of your own, well, try to not only look into the distance, but also take a look at the shore ??? How many cars have developed a resource? How much more durable is duralumin and composite, which is more technological and does not require highly qualified personnel in manufacture using wood and linen? And in the course, for example, that with the advance to the West there was such a paradoxical situation - it is simpler and more effective in order not to slow down the pace of the offensive, to fit several trains with new tanks, which again are more simple to manufacture, for which they earned the fame of the best tanks of the Second World War, rather than driving trains with spare parts and arranging repairs in the field, but not everything could be corrected in the field - it was necessary to take them to the factory too, although in fairness it was in the second half of the Patriotic War I’ve got an example from the other side? I have them - in the final phase of the Kursk confrontation, the Germans did not have time to repair a huge number of wrecked vehicles - during the offensive the battlefield was behind them and they exported damaged, but not destroyed for repair, and ours, by the way, too, and what was not enough for hands - they undermined. Normal practice, and then stupidly did not have enough technology. Well, just a few days - the Stalinist marshals, as the liberoids said, drove the detachments to fill up with “meat.” But what would it cost us to delay the offensive if the chances had managed to repair their pan -ervagenes ????? It’s scary to think ... Yes - I didn’t notice in the article that Goering issued an order to count the driving of a motor on a multi-engine bomber as fixing a camera as a shot-down of an airplane, or maybe this isn’t normal?
      1. Glot
        Glot 11 October 2015 11: 00 New
        +1
        ..........., fit a few echelons with new tanks, which are again simpler to manufacture for which they earned the glory of the best tanks of the Second World War, ...........


        Speech about the T-34?
        He was not the best because he was easy to manufacture. It is rather to the question of mass.
        And the fact that he was recognized as the best was proved by life itself, since thirty-four fought until the 90s, inclusive. What other WWII tanks lasted for so many years ?!
        1. cth; fyn
          cth; fyn 11 October 2015 11: 24 New
          +2
          Sherman also fought in 90, though with a tower from the AMX.
        2. avt
          avt 11 October 2015 14: 07 New
          0
          Quote: Glot
          the fact that he was recognized as the best was proved by life itself, since thirty-four fought until the 90s, inclusive.

          But can you say something more specifically, well, except for GlavPurovsky chants? Or just as in Vysotsky’s song - ,, So let go, it will be easier for you, why bother, since life will condemn anyway. "
          1. Glot
            Glot 11 October 2015 19: 54 New
            +1
            But can you say something more specifically, well, except for GlavPurovsky chants?


            You are either completely off topic, then why get into it at all, or from a white-tape scum ...
            Google about the T-34 in Yugoslavia, at least, there are no comments. Google where else T-34 far after the Second World War fought. I assure you, discover for many interesting things. Without Glavrpur.
            Go, internet and facts to help you.
            1. avt
              avt 11 October 2015 22: 11 New
              0
              Quote: Glot
              You are either completely off topic, then why get into it at all, or from a white-tape scum ...

              Hear the politician, and weakly at least one report isn’t something to lay out tests and shelling of the T-34 or something according to the results of tests, shelling at the firing range, well, and according to the results of the use in battles and how the machine components were brought to the factories making it easier to lay out production , but just read it yourself? And then you will gurgle about the color of the ribbons. Look half-poker underfocused. First learn the materiel, and then you'll stick the labels.
              Quote: Glot
              . Google where else T-34 far after the Second World War fought.

              Google not only the filings of “Red Star” and “Technique of Youth”, but the documents of ABTU and the decree of the KO under the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR about the car, well, look for publications of those people who read them and quote them in their works.
              1. Glot
                Glot 11 October 2015 23: 00 New
                0
                Hear the politician


                Homa, I don’t need to read about the "firing at the ranges". I have already explained to you that if this machine were bad, it would not have gone through so many wars and conflicts, up to the present day.
                Fershteyn? That one. laughing
                1. avt
                  avt 12 October 2015 09: 57 New
                  0
                  Quote: Glot
                  Homa, I don’t need to read about the "firing at the ranges".

                  Yeah - the magazine ,, Murzilka "enough for the eyes
                  Quote: Glot

                  Naturlich
                  Quote: Glot
                  That one.

                  and it’s clear that he turned over.
              2. complete zero
                complete zero 11 October 2015 23: 12 New
                0
                Yes, do not argue is useless))))
            2. complete zero
              complete zero 11 October 2015 23: 10 New
              +1
              it took one tiger (heels so thirty-four), and then if the adversary allowed to get closer to meters on 500 (and is it still necessary to get closer?) and he could shoot them from 1000 meters (and Shermans as well))) and without straining
          2. cth; fyn
            cth; fyn 12 October 2015 05: 57 New
            +2
            T-34-85 are fighting in Syria, now, at least there were photos and videos of the use of these tanks in the defense of the airport.
        3. complete zero
          complete zero 11 October 2015 23: 06 New
          0
          lingered in the ranks, that's precisely because of the mass character ... in the Far East in the bunkers the Su 152 trunks are still standing (and do not rust))) so here it is debatable ... a good tank but not the best
          1. Glot
            Glot 11 October 2015 23: 12 New
            +2
            Good, maybe not the best but, just a little man here avt she sang odes to nemchur, like nemchur’s tanks da-ah, but we have u-y-y ... SchA will also be about the fact that we “filled up the tanks with masses of beautiful“ tigers ”to sing.
            1. avt
              avt 12 October 2015 10: 07 New
              -1
              Quote: Glot
              , there’s just a little man avt odes singing nemchuru, like here nemchuru tanks are yeah, but we have uhhh ..

              When you learn other letters besides a and u, and you leave Murzilka, read the report to the People’s Commissar of Defense, Marshal Stalin, dated May 04, 1943 on the test results of shelling a German T-VI tank on April 24-30 at the GBTU training ground ..... Although a campaign not in a horse’s feed - really a coekaker born with ,, knowledge " fool and learning not amenable to - teach fools - only to spoil.
              1. Glot
                Glot 12 October 2015 10: 14 New
                0
                Although the feed is not a horse trip, it’s really a koekaker born with ,, knowledge ”and amenable to learning - to teach fools only to spoil


                Homa, with knowledge no one is born. This is so, note to you. Knowledge is gained. laughing
                I am aware of the modifications of the T-34 and their weaknesses and more, this is not the case, but quite different. Only you can’t drive into anything. Well, go dig the black sea laughing , and don't try to teach me. We do not need such teachers. Good luck.
              2. The comment was deleted.
        4. Aljavad
          Aljavad 13 October 2015 03: 17 New
          0
          What other WWII tanks lasted for so many years ?!


          Sherman served in Paraguay. Pzkw IV also fought in the Middle East, but certainly not until the 90s.
    2. Alex_59
      Alex_59 12 October 2015 08: 25 New
      +2
      it took one tiger (heels so thirty-four), and then if the adversary allowed to get closer to meters on 500 (and is it still necessary to get closer?) and he could shoot them from 1000 meters (and Shermans as well))) and without straining
      And this fact, of course, warmed the soul of the German infantry in those sections of the front where the Tigers were not, but the tracks of dozens of thirty-four clanged dangerously close to their carcasses.
      1. Scraptor
        Scraptor 12 October 2015 11: 35 New
        0
        next to the infantry there was a VET and German armored vehicles with shorter guns
        1. Aljavad
          Aljavad 13 October 2015 03: 22 New
          0
          next to the infantry there was a VET and German armored vehicles with shorter guns

          But that did not save them. soldier
          1. Scraptor
            Scraptor 13 October 2015 03: 27 New
            0
            and the Faustians killed many ...
  6. anip
    anip 11 October 2015 09: 00 New
    0
    German pilot Manfred von Richthoffen

    Richthofen is written with one "f" - Manfred Albrecht Freiherr von Richthofen.
    I don’t understand, this is out of a desire to show my supposedly literacy, by analogy with how they write "office", or what?
    1. Alf
      Alf 11 October 2015 09: 12 New
      +9
      Quote: anip
      Richthofen is written with one "f" - Manfred Albrecht Freiherr von Richthofen.
      I don’t understand, this is out of a desire to show my supposedly literacy, by analogy with how they write "office", or what?

      There is nothing to cling to anymore?
      In French, the name "Renault", but it is customary to say "Renault".
      In English, the name "Buffalo" in Russian is pronounced "Buffalo", although "Buffolo" should be spoken about the rules of the English language.
      1. cth; fyn
        cth; fyn 11 October 2015 11: 25 New
        +2
        They forgot about Doshirak)))
  7. srha
    srha 11 October 2015 09: 51 New
    +5
    But is it not better to give statistics on issued, used, shot down, remaining planes and pilots, instead of "aces memoirs"?
    From the information that came to me, I can tell you that the losses on the pilots (killed) are naturally very controversial, but not at times:
    USSR - 27600
    Germany - 43500
    http://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/205/813676.html

    Their aces lie ...
  8. Stas57
    Stas57 11 October 2015 09: 56 New
    0
    Article is old but still relevant.
  9. Stas57
    Stas57 11 October 2015 09: 56 New
    0
    Article is old but still relevant.
  10. garrikz
    garrikz 11 October 2015 10: 08 New
    +4
    The article is not in the eyebrow, but in the eye.
    The same situation was in the tank troops. Instead of creating a normal medium tank (in terms of both weight and characteristics), the Nazis hit the “excellent” armor and gun, but the “raw” and expensive “Panthers” and “Tigers”.
    1. cth; fyn
      cth; fyn 11 October 2015 11: 28 New
      +1
      And they stepped on the same rake twice, giving the USSR super-duper a new tank, first in the swamps near Leningrad and then on the Arc.
    2. Scraptor
      Scraptor 11 October 2015 13: 40 New
      +1
      The Panther was a normal medium tank (ignition classification, MBT weight).
      1. Forest
        Forest 11 October 2015 19: 48 New
        +1
        But it was a medium fighter tank (speaking the pre-war classification). He could not break through the defenses and develop the offensive.
        1. complete zero
          complete zero 11 October 2015 23: 17 New
          +1
          Yes, they had a practical tank throughout the war, the main tank was t4 to a hundred those are not a bad tank
    3. complete zero
      complete zero 11 October 2015 23: 15 New
      0
      production culture played a role (the Germans could not do otherwise) and of course time worked for us
  11. Miner
    Miner 11 October 2015 10: 22 New
    +1
    Ok so.

    It’s been a long time since I read such a work - calm, without hatred, with analysis, etc.

    I will save not only a link to this article, but also to it myself.
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 11 October 2015 13: 01 New
      0
      I read it in the 2005, as part of a book.
  12. Miner
    Miner 11 October 2015 10: 42 New
    +1
    A little about the ratio of victory figures / tactics of the Air Force, depending on the tasks facing the air force.

    Yes, there is something to argue about: they say that the fighter units of the German Air Force were faced with the task of destroying enemy aircraft in the air, and therefore even “cowardly” tactics — sneaking up behind and cutting off one or another aircraft with an exact line-up is a very pious thing, for nothing not always very useful. In the sense that to fill up an enemy aircraft returning after a successful bombing is not good for your fighting army, rather than if you shot it down or drove it away BEFORE he accurately puts his bombs on the positions of your troops.

    But, they say, the pilots of our Air Force had a different task - it was necessary not to replenish the personal account of the shot down, but to cover, including “with our own body” the positions of our troops and not allow the enemies to bomb them.

    That is, if a German pilot could justifiably consider his task accomplished if he, without risking himself needlessly, let the Pe-2 system work through the railway station or the Wehrmacht’s troops, and then, hiding, dump a couple " Pawn "upon their return home, the Soviet Air Force pilot, could have considered his task accomplished if he forced the Junkers line to drop bombs to the target, even if he had not shot down any of them.


    But you must agree with your colleagues that here it’s hard for us to avoid the question: did the German command really really "care" about how the enemy air forces affect the troops of their own ground forces?

    And why then do you need fighter aircraft? Only ONLY TO destroy enemy airplanes?
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 11 October 2015 11: 41 New
      +3
      You raised an interesting topic about
      which was already in full swing.
      First point of view:
      German fighter aircraft on the Eastern Front
      strategically failed its task: despite the huge
      the number of Soviet aircraft shot down by her, she could not
      interfere with the support of the Soviet attack aircraft of their
      ground troops and, as a result, stop the Soviet ground
      offensive.
      The second:
      The real effectiveness of Soviet stormtroopers was rather low.
      Luftwaffe fighter pilots did everything they could, but the Germans
      all the same, there were few bombers, and without them the Russian ground offensive
      there was no stopping. In short: the main thing is the bombers, without them the fighters
      unimportant role.
      1. EvilLion
        EvilLion 11 October 2015 12: 59 New
        +4
        It’s the effectiveness of the attack aircraft on tanks, and the infantry and low-armored he is for a sweet soul. It’s rather strange to consider fighters as the main threat to attack aircraft, the chance of interception is quite small, anti-aircraft guns are much more dangerous.
      2. Aljavad
        Aljavad 13 October 2015 03: 27 New
        +1
        the Germans still had few bombers, and without them the Russian ground attacks could not be stopped.


        In the 41st ours also blamed the pilots that they could not stop the advancing Germans.
      3. Scraptor
        Scraptor 13 October 2015 03: 32 New
        0
        the main thing is fighters because they do not allow bombers and shooters to fly
    2. EvilLion
      EvilLion 11 October 2015 13: 01 New
      +1
      Fighter aircraft are needed to ensure the attacks of their Air Force on ground targets and to prohibit the enemy Air Force attacks on their own, but the price of the fighter of those years is simply insignificant. At the same time, downed planes are good for window dressing.
    3. complete zero
      complete zero 11 October 2015 23: 21 New
      +2
      Yes, no, I don’t really care, the cover tactics were somewhat different ... the Germans did not cover as such (in pure form), they flew out to clear the air (so-called), they blocked our airfields, our fighters (covering the area) drove away and generally gave passage to their bombers bombers themselves rarely went (and BF 109) is not the best escort))))
  13. Miner
    Miner 11 October 2015 10: 59 New
    +1
    And the second question.

    Reading the memoirs of Kozhedub, we all remember the fact that when a German group of well-trained fighters started to “play pranks” on one section of the front, a group of Soviet Air Force pilots, including Ivan Kozhedub, was transferred to this section of the front so that they would help “tame” the excessively flaming Luftwaffe pilots, who by their actions inflict considerable concrete damage on the Soviet Air Force.

    After some time, Kozhedub associates, quite successfully solved this problem and the aces of the German Air Force ceased to be hemorrhoids in this section of the front. If I’m not mistaken, it was somewhere in the Baltic region, but not the point.

    Here's the thing: with this example, we see, first, that our command acted similarly to the described tactics of the German Air Force, that is, it transferred fighter units to places requiring urgent intervention by a "group of competent comrades" (in this case, Kozhedub and Ko).

    That is, it turns out that the questions described in the literature (including the article under discussion) and the ones described in my previous post describing the tactics of the Luftwaffe and the USSR Air Force are not so unambiguous and true?



    And yet - are there other similar examples known when, in order to solve a serious question on a specific sector of the front, the command of the Soviet Air Force would do the same as the example given to the “group of Kozhedub’s comrades”.



    PS
    The request is not to cling to the words, for it is clear that with all due respect to him, by no means comrade Kozhedub was the main one in that group of fighters and then she was not at all associated with his name.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 11 October 2015 14: 31 New
      0
      "That is, it turns out that those described in the literature (including in the article under discussion)
      and the questions in my previous post describing the tactics of the Luftwaffe and
      USSR Air Force is not so clear and true? "////

      The problem, it seems to me that they came to such tactics (the right one) late.
      It was possible to split the fighters earlier: the Yaks cover Ila, and La - in the free
      hunting (and actually save Yaki from sudden “shootings” from types like Hartman).
      1. Scraptor
        Scraptor 11 October 2015 15: 00 New
        +1
        What about Aero Cobras (Pokryshkinsky)? winked
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 11 October 2015 18: 09 New
          0
          Of course, I forgot about them.
          1. Scraptor
            Scraptor 11 October 2015 21: 42 New
            0
            what do you think was their niche?
      2. complete zero
        complete zero 11 October 2015 20: 19 New
        0
        the “bench” did not exceed the BF 109 (G series) on the verticals ... only La-7 was compared with the “Gustav” but still did not surpass ... somewhere from 3500 and above the mass had an advantage, besides the mass has a speed in the “climbe” was lower, he could pull up to 140 km / h (and this is important) ours fell by 200 ... but when they managed to pull the Germans to heights of no more than 2000-2500, then ours tore them
      3. Miner
        Miner 12 October 2015 08: 54 New
        0
        I thank those who spoke out.
        Thank you for your opinion.
    2. Aljavad
      Aljavad 13 October 2015 03: 32 New
      0
      And yet - are there other similar examples known when, in order to solve a serious question on a specific sector of the front, the command of the Soviet Air Force would do the same as the example given to the “group of Kozhedub’s comrades”.


      At the first stage of Khalkhin-Gola, the Japanese firmly glanced up our I-15s.
      Then from the “center” I-16, I-153 and “some there” Heroes of the Soviet Union with Spanish experience were sent.
  14. cth; fyn
    cth; fyn 11 October 2015 11: 15 New
    0
    ATP, it was interesting to know this point of view, rather, I now also adhere to it, because she is very logical and indicative.
  15. andrewkor
    andrewkor 11 October 2015 11: 40 New
    0
    from a book about Hartman: made 1400 sorties, conducted 800 battles. These figures are equal to those of owls. air divisions, 2,5 times more than the regiment "Normandy-Niemen."
  16. Free wind
    Free wind 11 October 2015 12: 13 New
    +1
    Since 1943, groups of hunters have also been created in the USSR. The success of the hunt depends on surprise, and Kozhedub in particular used it. To the credit of the Hartman, it should be said that, despite the rather difficult post-war years, he did not become embittered and did not blame the Soviet people, although in 1947 his son died, whom he did not see. In contrast to the strudel, which until the end of his life remained a fascist idolizing Hitler.
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 11 October 2015 12: 56 New
      +2
      In the USSR, hunting flights accounted for 2% of the total.
  17. vladimir_krm
    vladimir_krm 11 October 2015 12: 22 New
    +4
    Wow: to write so much, it is not clear what. To refer, as it has become fashionable among creaks, to the reports of commanders? So this is not a flight book, this is analytics. It is not a fact that all these allegedly shot down were counted in the book, on the contrary, there were a lot of cases when those shot down far behind the front line were not counted, although the pilot himself saw him stick into the ground. Why? Yes, because there were no ground troops nearby, there was no one to confirm, and at first they did not install photo-machine guns. There was no time for mushrooms.

    And not a single denier has yet provided statistics: how many, in total, German pilots “shot down”, and how many total aircraft were produced in the USSR. It seems to me that the first digit will be more than the second :)

    Threat. Even Japanese historians believe that this Japanese super-ace shot down 80 planes, not 122. How much he actually shot down - we will not know.

    Article minus.
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 11 October 2015 12: 53 New
      +1
      I don’t understand - shut up.
    2. revnagan
      revnagan 12 October 2015 12: 04 New
      0
      Exactly. And this is interesting, only the author’s strange logic surprises me? That is, the Fritz have a large number of shot downs due to the large number of enemy aircraft targets, there are too many to choose from, but then in 1941 our fighters also had to have hundreds “Fritz accounts.” Indeed, the sky was teeming with “targets” from the “Lufwaffe,” right? 80% of the Red Army airplanes burned out at airfields, but the rest opened up “fabulous” perspectives, right? -16. There, on the Brewsters, the Finns could bring packs of Yak and La, and nothing, right? No, something is wrong here. That's what they would tell me, and the Fritz are clearly worthy descendants of the great liar-baron Munchausen. And the government of Mr. Goebbels indulged them greatly in this.
      1. Aljavad
        Aljavad 13 October 2015 03: 39 New
        +1
        But then, in 1941, our fighters also had to have hundreds of “accounts” of Fritz. Indeed, the sky was simply teeming with “targets” from the “Lufwaffe,” right?

        Heroes 22 06 41. They just did not live ... There was an article in the AviO magazine for 1993. They took off under fire, shot down several enemies, spending ammunition went to ram ... and the Germans already occupied their airfield. These are those who managed to take off.
  18. EvilLion
    EvilLion 11 October 2015 12: 55 New
    -3
    This is not an article, but a chapter from the book "10 Myths of the Second World" by Isaev. The question is, who exactly posted it, the author himself, or is his authorship simply honestly pointed out by someone else? Is there permission to publish?
  19. Fitter65
    Fitter65 11 October 2015 13: 26 New
    +2
    As one veteran said, I ... Yu! how many you shot down, important with how many bombs I hit the target ...
    1. PROHOJIY
      PROHOJIY 12 October 2015 12: 52 New
      +1
      That's for sure. The German infantry, of course, was very pleased to know that in the sky a super ace was fighting over them, with hundreds of victories. That's just this ace a little something - flies away to fight with fighters to replenish the account. And the infantry at this time, our bombers are mixing with the ground.
  20. tolancop
    tolancop 11 October 2015 13: 35 New
    +4
    Did not like....
    The Germans, they say, had a special form, so their statements about the downed Russian eroplanes can be trusted. For some reason, there was no form in the Air Force of the Red Army, therefore it is impossible to trust the statements of the pilots - they lie, wretches !!! The casualty system is mentioned casually and in such a way that it seems that it actually didn’t exist ... And the fact that it was necessary to confirm the downing from the GROUND services (units) is not a word ... About the fact that they paid premium for the downed planes It’s mentioned, but to go a little further and come to the conclusion that the “scribes” went under a specific article of the Criminal Code (illegally obtained MONEY !!!) the author had no desire. T.ch. I am convinced that there were "postscripts", but they were not widespread. I read a lot of pilots' memoirs: not one even many years after the war claimed that there was a mass registration of the shot down - some cases - YES, but massively and systematically - NO.
    About the absence of a special form ... The author sees this as a strangeness ... But there is no strangeness - the ball’s task is not to bring down the Germans, but to fulfill YOUR task. If at the same time he shot down - well, but no, then no ... the main thing is to carry out a combat mission (cover ... destroy, etc.). In the memoirs of the pilots came across an episode of setting a combat mission to cover the crossing. The task was set by a high-ranking commander. In short, then: "cover the crossing at all costs. You can not hit anyone, but if the crossing remains WHOLE until the evening, I will sign award sheets to everyone. If you collect a lot, but you can’t save the crossing, I won’t sign anything !!!".
    About the "sniper" Hartman, who spent 120 ammunition on 3 aircraft. The author made a strange choice ... I would have rummaged around, found a mention of the "Star of Africa" ​​Marsail - he seemed to have spent 9 in one of the fights (I do not remember exactly, but it seems to be no more) rounds of ammunition for the enemy’s plane.
  21. SOB
    SOB 11 October 2015 14: 32 New
    +3
    In other words, Hartman won in the information war, and Kozhedub won in the real.
  22. alicante11
    alicante11 11 October 2015 15: 20 New
    0
    The path to high personal scores lies through the war with superior enemy forces by a small number of its pilots.


    Logically, at school I always tried to play football or basketball for a weak team. Being always her best player. And during the training camp for a lost football match, he even earned gratitude from the brigade commander and additional firing from the PM for his company.
  23. xomaNN
    xomaNN 11 October 2015 18: 03 New
    +3
    It is not surprising that the Red Army Air Force did not really encourage individual asses. The stake in the USSR was all about collective action. War in the air is not a one-on-one knightly tournament.
  24. complete zero
    complete zero 11 October 2015 19: 59 New
    +8
    The article is absolutely true, the Germans really shot down more (their aces), and even if the hartman lied (200 pieces anyway) anyway more ... BUT were they the best pilots? -In the article it is correctly said that the number of shot-downs is NOT index. There are good memoirs of the pilot Ivan Kozhemyako who fought in the “shepherds” on the Yak from 1942 (the most difficult year for aviation) to 1945 ... then Vanya shot down nothing (four planes) BUT HE LOST NO ONE of whom he accompanied, and NOT ONE SLAVE ... and here is one of them AS Ivan Kozhemyako or Hartman (how to determine?) - different tasks and combat conditions are different ... Silts traveled 1000-1500 m at a speed of 250-300 km / h, "shepherds "hung no more than 500 m above Ilov ... and the German fell from 4000 m, having developed a speed of 700-800 (critical practical speed) try to knock it down))))) set the task It was repulsing the attack (which they did) they put barrage fire ... Altitude + speed = energy this is the conditions for destroying the enemy (as Pokryshkin did) but he flew to the GIAP and did not accompany the attack aircraft ... and for the most part Red Army fighters were engaged in rough work.
    1. Miner
      Miner 12 October 2015 09: 04 New
      +2
      Not so long ago there was an article on this site, as the results of the front-line activities of the Pokryshkin fighter were evaluated by one of the bombers, a group of which was accompanied by Pokryshkin with his guys.

      The essence of the veteran’s statement was: “I don’t give a damn how many victories Pokryshkin won there! This is not the main thing. The main thing is that while working under his cover, we did not even see German fighters during the execution of our mission.”

      This is me to the fact that probably you can’t say that Pokryshkin "did not accompany strike aircraft."
    2. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 12 October 2015 10: 16 New
      +2
      "Vanya shot down everything or anything (four planes) BUT I DID NOT LOSS through my fault NOT ONE SLA which I accompanied .... ///"

      Well, in general, it’s right: fighters are not an independent family
      troops, and cover for bombers and attack aircraft.
      Therefore, it is not so important how many fighter shot down, but how much
      the bombing was successful.
      Well, air defense fighters. Luftwaffe failed its strategic mission
      already in 1940, when she could not cover her territory from
      systematic English bombing.
      1. Scraptor
        Scraptor 12 October 2015 12: 22 New
        0
        It is important because at first domination in the air is captured.
        Serious bombing began in 1943 after the Kuban, and when the Anglo-Americans concentrated on the Island.
        She failed not least because she clung to Taman.
  25. nail
    nail 11 October 2015 21: 41 New
    +1
    The German pilots had a different calculation — points were awarded for the downed planes: 1 point for the downing of a single-engine aircraft; twin-engine-2; four-engine-3 point; For a damaged twin-engine aircraft, a German pilot relied 1 point, and for a four-engine plane, 2 points. For the destruction of an already damaged four-engine aircraft, only 1 point was given, that is, half as much as for its damage. In total 3 points, as it should be for this type of aircraft.
  26. npzh
    npzh 12 October 2015 13: 58 New
    +2
    This is a long-standing dispute - about accounts.
    Add a little tsiferok.
    Combat losses of the USSR - 46000 aircraft.
    The combat losses of the Americans 18000 aircraft.
    British combat losses of 16400 aircraft.
    Combat losses - shot down by fighter jets and bombers, shot down for, destroyed and captured by the enemy on the ground, not returning from a combat mission.
    For the USSR-apparently not written off due to combat damage. Maybe I'm wrong.
    Total - about 80000 aircraft (without Polish and French).
    The Germans believed that they destroyed 120000 enemy aircraft.
    Including on the Eastern Front - about 75000 aircraft TOGETHER with their allies (Finns, Romanians, Hungarians, Italians).
    So the average hospital bill is overstated by 50%. Not at times, which is characteristic. If you look at how fighter aircraft and gunners reported by the Americans, the Germans are like small children.
    For some experts (aces who fought in Africa and in the West) they checked, they didn’t find any large posts. What happened in the East is not clear.

    And add on points. "Motor" was considered for awarding knight's crosses, and only in the West.
  27. Denis_469
    Denis_469 12 October 2015 14: 51 New
    0
    In general, a balanced article devoted to the analysis of combat effectiveness in the air. Only I didn’t read the confirmation or refutation of the version that Yuri Valentinovich Rybin once told me that the Germans counted in the engines, and in our fuselages (planes). And 1 “B-17” gave the Germans 4 victories, and we would count as 1 victory. Well, with all due respect to Yuri Valentinovich, I can say that there was a time when I did not share his methodology for working with information and calculating losses. So for example, in his computer 1 "Ju-87" was listed as a downed surface ship, and I told him about the downing of that plane elsewhere by a submarine. Purely for the copy of the Chronicle that he has. This is to the fact that he is too fixated on the Germans and worships them, because he often misses Old from Soviet sources. Actually, according to the attacks (photo control) of the attacks of Soviet aircraft on German transports and ships, this was also clearly visible. So he showed me part of the phot for identification and on one of them was visible only the stern of sinking vehicles. 100% drowning denied by the Germans and our official historiography now. And then he also claimed that the Germans did not lose anyone, finally reaching the decision that, in his opinion, this was not from that attack, but from some other one. Although at first he told me before the show that this was the attack.

    Well, as for the German aces, Germany had fewer troops and they had to fight more. In principle, the submarine fleet has the same picture in all countries of the world. If there are few boats, then the efficiency becomes large (with equal opportunities). if the fleets are large, then victories are spread out at all.
  28. Bosk
    Bosk 12 October 2015 19: 35 New
    0
    As I understand it, the Germans had a flight book where the pilot recorded the reported downed planes and there was a flight log of this part where these downed planes were exposed or not ... and the records of these two documents sometimes differed greatly (which is generally not surprising) ... maybe here it is necessary to look for "where the dog rummaged"?
    1. npzh
      npzh 13 October 2015 13: 36 New
      +1
      The pilot did not write to himself in the flight book.
      For the shot down, the Germans filled out a report - type of aircraft, time, place, circumstances, etc.
      The commander might not have counted if there were no confirmations.
      1. Scraptor
        Scraptor 13 October 2015 14: 04 New
        0
        And he could count ...
    2. The comment was deleted.
  29. Garyn
    Garyn 13 October 2015 10: 55 New
    0
    There Ukrainians killed all our GRUSHnikov and paratroopers, even the T-14 (Armata) and even the secret Altai.
  30. Bat
    Bat 26 October 2017 21: 49 New
    0
    Firstly: the Germans were always famous for exaggeration,
    And secondly, since 1990 the newspaper Argufakty and Menty has turned yellow sharply. What is the article about the 100th anniversary of Tsushima. Where the newsboy poured a tub of slops on the heroes of the sailors.