Military Review

Chinese "dragon" from Israel

45
Chinese "dragon" from Israel



Help create a multipurpose fighter, drones and cruise missiles, despite US pressure Tel Aviv works closely with Beijing
In recent years, Israel has become one of the main exporters of modern weapons to China, despite the opposition of the United States. According to experts, the Israeli military exports to the PRC are second only to those of Russia and have a tendency to noticeable growth.

Takeoff of the Swift Dragon

January 5 2007, the information about the latest Chinese multipurpose fighter Chengdu J-10 "Swift Dragon" was officially announced in Beijing. For experts, his relationship with the Israeli fighter Lavi was not news. The creation of the “Swift Dragon” was another confirmation of the Israeli-Chinese military cooperation, which began in the 80-ies of the XX century.

In 1984, the first reports appeared about the modernization of the Soviet armored vehicles by the Israelis, which were in service with the People’s Liberation Army of China (PLA). According to Andrew Chan, an independent expert at the KANWA Hong Kong Analytical Center, in 1986, a large group of Israeli specialists in the field of military aircraft arrived in the city of Chengdu, the center of the Chinese aerospace industry. Israelis' stay in this Chinese city in the province of Sichuan was surrounded by a dense veil of secrecy.

The emergence of Israeli aviation engineers in China were preceded by a series of events, the meaning and importance of which only came to be understood in recent years. Israel started the Lavi project in the early 80s. The goal of the Israeli aircraft designers was to create a fighter that surpasses the American counterpart in its tactical and technical characteristics - the F-16A / B fighter. The set goal was achieved, which was proved by test flights of the Israeli aircraft. In the United States, they realized that they were dealing with a dangerous competitor. Under the pretext of protecting their own aircraft industry and fears about the possible export of an Israeli fighter jet to regimes unfriendly to the West, the Americans began to seek a complete cessation of the Lavi program. Under American pressure, Israel was forced to curtail the project in 1987.

However, the achievements of the Israeli aircraft designers have not disappeared without a trace. Probably, a secret agreement was reached between China and Israel, under which Israel sold part of the design documentation of the developed aircraft to China. Then Israeli aircraft engineers, who helped develop the Chengdu J-10 fighter, appeared in Chinese Chengdu.


Fighter Chengdu J-10. Photo: Alexander F. Yuan / AP


In addition to creating the aerodynamic layout of the Chinese fighter, Israeli specialists assisted in designing a number of electronic on-board systems and, above all, aircraft control systems and radar systems. The Jian-10 radar installed onboard the Swift Dragon is in fact the Israeli ELM-2021 system, as are the fire control systems.

At the same time, China assumed obligations on three points. The first is not to sell the new fighter to direct or potential enemies of Israel. The second is to give Israel the full opportunity to use the developments implemented by the Chinese side, created with the participation of Israeli scientists. Third, both states become full partners in the sale of a fighter to third countries. These agreements between China and Israel remain the basis of Israeli-Chinese military-technical cooperation today. China stated that "China’s consistent position is that the development of normal military cooperation with Israel is a matter of relations between the two countries and does not concern third countries."

Israeli technology in the PRC and US resistance

At the beginning of the 1990 for the first time, it was openly announced about close ties between Israel and the PRC, and on January 22 of the country 1992, they agreed to establish full diplomatic relations. Since then, they have been developing intensively. Israel, as one of the world leaders in the field of high technologies, is interested in Chinese investments in its innovative projects. Over time, the Chinese will be able to compete even with the Americans. To date, more than a thousand Israeli firms are working on various projects in China.


Benjamin Netanyahu during a visit to Beijing. Photo: Kim Kyung-Hoon / AP


The emerging cooling of relations between Israel and the United States only strengthens the new vector of Israeli politics - the all-round strengthening of economic and military ties with the rapidly developing countries of the Far East and, above all, with China. General Matan Vilnai, in the recent past, deputy head of the IDF General Staff, became Israel’s ambassador to the PRC.

In a report by the US Congress Commission on US-China Relations, Israel is called the main supplier of sophisticated military technology for China. Tel Aviv supplies intercepting and fire control equipment for the Chinese Navy fleet, cruise missiles YF-12A, YJ-62, and YJ-92, radar systems, airborne radar stations (radar), optical and telecommunication equipment, unmanned aircraft and flight simulators, tank thermal imagers, aircraft of the Chinese Air Force are equipped with Israeli air-to-air Python-3 missiles. Israel assisted China in developing the HQ-9 / FT-2000 ground-to-air missile. In July 2002, observers discovered that China used the Israeli Harpy radar drones in military exercises in Fujian.

At the same time, Washington is constantly trying to counteract this cooperation. A serious conflict between Israel and the United States arose in connection with the agreement to supply China with radar detection aircraft. Under the terms of the deal, Tel Aviv was to equip three Chinese aircraft with Phalcon radars. However, as a result of tough US pressure in July 2000, Israel was forced to abandon the deal with China, potentially valued at $ 1 billion. Two years later, Tel Aviv paid Beijing $ 300 million of compensation for the failed project.

Cooperation areas

Along with intensive military-technical cooperation between Israel and China, in recent years there has been a tendency to strengthen direct ties between the armies of both countries. In the PRC, Israeli military experience is being carefully studied. “China must learn from Israel and respond toughly to attempts by the Japanese self-defense forces to go beyond the limits set,” wrote the famous Chinese military commentator Dai Xu about the heightened contradictions between Beijing and Tokyo.


Chen Bingde (third from right) and Beni Ganz (fifth from right) in Tel Aviv. Photo: Dan Balilty / AP


The head of the National Defense Academy, General Liu Yadzhou, who was heading the Chinese military delegation to Israel, spoke of the need to strengthen cooperation with the Israeli air force in order to master their best practices. “If we say that the Air Force is the sword of the state, then Israel is an unsurpassed and excellent swordsman,” Liu wrote in his book “God of War in Heaven”, devoted to the development prospects of Chinese military aviation.

The countries exchanged visits of the chiefs of general staffs, military contacts at various levels, including between intelligence and the Navy, are constantly maintained. Beijing plans to use the Israeli experience in the fight against terrorism, given the problems in East Xinjiang. As part of the agreements reached in Israel, in complete secrecy, a senior officer of the Chinese police was trained to combat 53 terror. They were placed on the base of the border troops in Beit Horon in the north of Israel. At the end of the course, Chinese officers were received by the High Commissioner of Israel’s Police, General David Cohen. However, the Israeli police refused to comment on this matter.
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45 comments
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  1. andrei332809
    andrei332809 April 25 2014 19: 14
    +6
    Ha. who on na ...
    Jewish money-grubbing or oriental endurance? and the cunning ones both.
    py.s. for some reason this news DOESN’t cause my concern tongue
    1. Vitaly Anisimov
      Vitaly Anisimov April 25 2014 19: 21
      +5
      Jews keep their nose in the wind ..)))
      Countries exchanged visits by chiefs of general staffs, military contacts at various levels,
      It's always like this .. it's offensive (I already wrote that the Jews have strangely calmed down ..) The wave is being caught again (while we are pressing the USA ..) Yes, the "sacred cow" .. Keep your money in yuan (it will be along the way ..)) ))
      1. Bayonet
        Bayonet April 25 2014 19: 51
        +5
        Quote: MIKHAN
        They catch the wave again (while we are crushing the USA ..)

        Where are you "pushing the USA"? If not a secret of course.
        1. sabakina
          sabakina April 25 2014 22: 10
          +3
          Well, where is it? Normally...
        2. Semen Semyonitch
          Semen Semyonitch April 25 2014 23: 35
          -3
          Quote: Bayonet
          Where are you "pushing the USA"? If not a secret of course.


          We are not pushing yet, of course, but we are already giving a decent "shock" yes
        3. chudoudodelt
          chudoudodelt April 26 2014 00: 38
          +1
          in dreams and dreams))
      2. Vladimir 23rus
        Vladimir 23rus April 27 2014 12: 20
        0
        the Jews realized that the owner had changed (only as they "poor things" eyes would be altered) and, during laughing
    2. Anisim1977
      Anisim1977 April 25 2014 23: 04
      +1
      Just the Jews understood that we and the Chinese have real influence on the Arabs. And we are not interested in peace in the Middle East.
      Plus, having considered the potential, Jews are betting on the Chinese, not on the United States. hi
  2. 11111mail.ru
    11111mail.ru April 25 2014 19: 17
    +7
    From the point of view of Israel - money does not smell, from the point of view of China - it does not matter what color the cat is, the main thing is that it catches mice. Chinese with a Jew - brothers forever?
    1. Bayonet
      Bayonet April 25 2014 19: 51
      +6
      Quote: 11111mail.ru
      Chinese with a Jew - brothers forever?

      Normal business. Nothing personal.
    2. Wheel
      Wheel April 26 2014 01: 38
      -1
      Quote: 11111mail.ru
      Chinese with a Jew - brothers forever?

      Hmm, the Jews will reread the torus with the Talmud and discover that half of the Chinese are Jews ... laughing
  3. Roman 1977
    Roman 1977 April 25 2014 19: 17
    +13
    Thank God, the first normal topic without Ukraine.
    As everyone knows, the Chinese Chengdu J-10 has Israeli roots: at present, this only Chinese production aircraft more or less meeting modern requirements was created on the basis of Israeli developments under the Lavi program. The basic layout decisions of the Israeli fighter were the basis for the project of a new Chinese aircraft, designated J-10. In the late 1980s - early 1990s, the program underwent further changes: Russia was involved in the creation of the J-10. In particular, it was decided to equip the new aircraft with the Russian turbojet engine "A. Lyulka-Saturn" AL-31F, which is also installed on the Su-27 fighters of the Chinese Air Force, which entailed a number of significant changes in the design of the aircraft, which was previously designed, obviously, under one The Chinese Air Force only confirmed the existence of the J-10 on December 29, 2006, although the aircraft had been in development for over 20 years and had been in service for three years. For many years, the Chinese denied the very existence of the fighter, despite the presence of a large number of photographs and detailed information on its on-board systems. The main disadvantage of the J-10 is considered to be its short flight range. In 2005, two prototypes were equipped with fuel receivers fixedly mounted on the starboard side in the forward fuselage. Based on test results, the air refueling system is approved for use on production aircraft. The aircraft is constantly being improved - this is how information exchange systems appeared. Sparka is a full-fledged combat aircraft, but is mainly used for training and training pilots.

    J-10A PLA Air Force of China

    Lavi
    However, the Chinese did not disdain to "clone" another epoch-making example of Israeli weapons - the Uzi submachine gun, calling it Norinco model 320, although it is produced in a semi-automatic version, like a carbine.

    1. Sandov
      Sandov April 25 2014 19: 38
      +3
      Quote: Novel 1977
      Thank God, the first normal topic without Ukraine.

      I feel the coming rapprochement between Israel and Russia. I think cooperation will be fruitful.
      1. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa April 25 2014 22: 57
        +1
        Quote: Sandov
        I feel the coming rapprochement between Israel and Russia. I think cooperation will be fruitful.

        "Here is Golda Mayer's place,
        and there is a quarter of our former people "(V.S. Vysotsky)

        But it is already on. And this can be seen from the comments and speeches of the GDP, when he talks about the Kiev junta, its anti-Semitic actions and the sayings of the maydauns.
        In general, a lot of specialists from Russia rushed to the promised lands when the USSR rested in the Bose. Tula gunsmiths told me how their inventions, not having time to turn into metal in their NGOs, surfaced in Israel. The guys from the office dug that the main index of our NGO has a sibling in Israel, but under my mother’s surname, to which he merged all the information. Nothing personal - Jewish business! Shekel, he is in Africa - shekel! Gesheft above all.
        1. Anisim1977
          Anisim1977 April 25 2014 23: 07
          -3
          For that, through the Jews it is possible to buy Tang secrets.
          hi From crooks, too, can be useful.
    2. Revolver
      Revolver April 25 2014 23: 04
      +2
      Quote: Novel 1977
      The main drawback of the J-10 is considered to be a short range.

      For Israel, this would not be a disadvantage. The country, even along with the territories, is small - you can surpass it, so for Gaza to work as an interceptor or launch missile and bomb strikes, it would be quite enough. And for long-range action, the Jews have an F-15, in which case they will fly to Turkey, bomb and return.
      Well, China has a larger scale, so yes, for them it is a drawback.
  4. bulvas
    bulvas April 25 2014 19: 17
    +3
    A holy place is never empty
  5. rugor
    rugor April 25 2014 19: 19
    +1
    Well, our Jewish friends cannot refuse a glorious profit, even under pressure from the United States.

    And the Chinese have money - like a fool of a shag!
    1. Bayonet
      Bayonet April 25 2014 19: 56
      +3
      Quote: rugor
      Well, our Jewish friends cannot refuse a glorious profit, even under pressure from the United States.

      Well, they’re doing it right. All developed countries trade weapons. Why should they lose their benefits overseas morons?
  6. 0255
    0255 April 25 2014 19: 19
    +1
    Is the Israeli government looking for a new "roof" instead of the United States?
    1. ar-ren
      ar-ren April 25 2014 19: 26
      +4
      "You can't find a black cat in a dark room. Especially if the cat is smart, brave and polite."

      PS This is what I mean is that there is simply a sale of military equipment to a country that does not threaten Israel at all.
  7. konvalval
    konvalval April 25 2014 19: 19
    +7
    Unlike geyropa, Israel is not afraid to argue with the Americans, for which they can be respected.
  8. Biolant
    Biolant April 25 2014 19: 20
    +3
    As soon as the United States considers that Israel has gone too far out of their influence, there will be a war with its neighbors. I do not believe in the possibility of an orange revolution. Israel will not be able to get closer to Russia because of Syria and Iran. So they have only one way - to China. The main thing is away from AI.
    1. Sandov
      Sandov April 25 2014 19: 39
      +2
      Quote: Biolant
      As soon as the United States considers that Israel has gone too far out of their influence, there will be a war with its neighbors. I do not believe in the possibility of an orange revolution. Israel will not be able to get closer to Russia because of Syria and Iran. So they have only one way - to China. The main thing is away from AI.

      This does not stop us from getting closer. There are mutual interests.
      1. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa April 25 2014 23: 05
        +1
        Quote: Sandov
        This does not stop us from getting closer. There are mutual interests.

        If there are common interests, then ...
      2. Kus Imak
        Kus Imak April 26 2014 05: 31
        +1
        Quote: Sandov

        This does not stop us from getting closer. There are mutual interests.



        I don’t think so. Most of your people think that way:
        1. Sandov
          Sandov April 27 2014 11: 45
          0
          Quote: Kus Imac
          Quote: Sandov

          This does not stop us from getting closer. There are mutual interests.



          I don’t think so. Most of your people think that way:

          Everything goes to that, and they are hamsters in Africa and hamsters.
          Avigdor Eskin seems like an ardent Zionist, but makes reasonable speeches. You can always communicate with such people. As by the way, and with Assad.
  9. ar-ren
    ar-ren April 25 2014 19: 24
    +4
    "You should be friends with another country only if there is a third country between you." In the case of the Israel-China twin, this is 100% fulfilled.

    PS For which I respect the Israelis - they have excellent military equipment and weapons. But they have no other choice. Against them, 1.5 billion people are opponents and there is not a single gram of oil underfoot.
    1. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 April 25 2014 21: 44
      0
      Quote: ar-ren
      "You should be friends with another country only if there is a third country between you." In the case of the Israel-China twin, this is 100% fulfilled.

      Israel does not border Iran, but a sea of ​​mutual insults.
      Quote: ar-ren
      Against them 1.5 billion people are opponents

      With such a policy, this is not surprising. We must take affection with the neighbors, not Merkava. hi
      1. Alex_Popovson
        Alex_Popovson April 26 2014 07: 37
        +2
        With neighbors you need to take affection, not Merkava

        Such neighbors are not like Merkava - sarin is not enough to depart
  10. Artyom
    Artyom April 25 2014 19: 28
    +1
    Israelis have strong optoelectronic equipment! so it can be a good and not expensive plane. Of course, it will be inferior to our cars in its performance characteristics, but for sale in poor countries it will be a real competitor!
    he reminds something of F-16!
  11. Semurg
    Semurg April 25 2014 19: 35
    +5
    Israel and China do not border, and the insurance in the contract indicates that China would not sell the joint product to the enemies of Israel, but Israel will receive as much money from China for further development as it can to say, the Israelis have become serious players in the arms market and modernization. Well done, having neither oil nor gas, nor any raw materials and land, they built a prosperous state in an unfriendly environment thanks to only brains and enterprise.
    1. Kasym
      Kasym April 25 2014 20: 23
      +3
      Hi Sagat! In my class, when I was a student in physics and mathematics school in the USSR, 15% were Jews. First, brains, and then everything will follow - everything is correct and prudent. They give a decent education, and then they set tasks. I respect them very much for this. hi
      Thanks on MEGAPOLIS. In my opinion, except for the National Academy of Sciences, no one understands that he muddied with you and Aktobe there. wassat . We hope that this will turn out to be good for you and the country. drinks
      1. Semurg
        Semurg April 25 2014 20: 46
        +4
        Salem Kasym. Jews taught at my university and were very competent in their and related disciplines, in general, with all the negativity to them from local users, they arouse my sympathy although they ramp up Muslims. NAS is certainly not an angel in the flesh, but when compared to others, he and his decisions look good. The only thing that annoys me is the quick decision to create an alliance; nevertheless, the TS had to be run in and out for 5-7 years and then think what to do next. The European Union was built much longer and then could not avoid the negative aspects.
        1. Kasym
          Kasym April 25 2014 23: 49
          +2
          I agree . In a hurry for well-known and natural reasons. wink
      2. The comment was deleted.
  12. A1L9E4K9S
    A1L9E4K9S April 25 2014 19: 44
    +1
    The Americans were deeply offended by Israel because it did not support the USshikov with sanctions against Russia. Israel takes offense at the Americans for Palestine, for Egypt, in general, double-edged insults. Israel began to glance towards Russia, thanks for Syria for preventing a full-fledged war on the border. with Israel. And as for weapons, you never know who we sell them to, the Americans won’t buy helicopters for Afghanistan and nothing.
  13. Bayonet
    Bayonet April 25 2014 20: 01
    +6
    It is a pity that we are not cooperating in the development of new weapons. There would be a VERY strong team!
    1. Sandov
      Sandov April 27 2014 11: 48
      0
      Quote: Bayonet
      It is a pity that we are not cooperating in the development of new weapons. There would be a VERY strong team!

      Israeli drones will soon become the basis of our aerial reconnaissance. Israelis are not ghouls, well, at least not all.
  14. The comment was deleted.
  15. Kasym
    Kasym April 25 2014 20: 08
    +6
    "Israel defends its national interests. Sorry, business and nothing personal." Israeli brains would not interfere with us either. They have good agricultural technologies, for example. I believe that the larger the wedge between Israel and the United States, the better for us. laughing
  16. Giant thought
    Giant thought April 25 2014 20: 23
    0
    China can be friends with anyone it wants, to steal technology from anyone it can, and where it cannot, it should buy there, like all civilized countries.
  17. Magic archer
    Magic archer April 25 2014 20: 23
    +2
    The Chinese are good fellows. I compared their army and fleet here as early as 90x and now. They made a giant breakthrough! We have something to learn from them. But it would not hurt to cooperate with Israel either, especially in terms of drones. Like Jews, it’s a world leader.
  18. silberwolf88
    silberwolf88 April 25 2014 21: 04
    0
    Everything is quite in the traditions of China ... the reasoning of the Great Helmsman Mao about the need to "milk two cows" (this is about cooperation with the USSR and the USA) in the interests of the Great Country.

    As for Israel ... business is business ... and interestingly, China never carried out Jewish pogroms and was not an opponent of Israel. Everything is logical.
    1. And Us Rat
      And Us Rat April 26 2014 13: 10
      +1
      Quote: silberwolf88
      ... and interestingly, China never carried out Jewish pogroms and was not an opponent of Israel. Everything is logical.


      Even more...
      While the Nazis pursued an anti-human policy against Jews, many people saved the Jewish population, bypassing the law and risking their own lives. At the same time, however, the governments of many countries imposed strict restrictions on the immigration of Jews. Especially after 1938, almost all countries closed their borders to Jews. Looking back and seeing what the "civilized world" has done to the Jews, we, the people of China, are proud that when Jews were on the verge of death and struggling to survive, the Chinese city of Shanghai gave them refuge. From 1933 to 1941 over 30 thousand Jewish refugees from Europe arrived in Shanghai. Apart from those who then left Shanghai, by the time of the bombing of Pearl Harbor in December 1941, there were 20000 to 25000 Jewish refugees in the city. In other words, Shanghai accepted more Jews than Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, and India combined.
      The Chinese Consul General in Vienna, He Fengshan, issued thousands of visas to Singapore and other countries for Jews fleeing the Nazis.
      1. Sandov
        Sandov April 27 2014 11: 49
        0
        Quote: And Us Rat
        From 1933 to 1941 over 30 thousand Jewish refugees from Europe arrived in Shanghai. Apart from those who later left Shanghai, by the time Pearl Harbor was bombed in December 1941, there were between 20000 and 25000 Jewish refugees in the city. In other words, Shanghai has accepted more Jews than Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and India combined.

        Russia has done many times more for the Jews.
        1. And Us Rat
          And Us Rat April 27 2014 12: 46
          0
          Quote: Sandov
          Russia has done many times more for the Jews.

          But now we are discussing China. hi

          (Sometimes such exclamations are touching, it’s the same as hearing a recipe for making stucco at a cooking lesson - it’s possible and true, but SO is not the topic.) lol
  19. ar-ren
    ar-ren April 25 2014 21: 12
    +2
    Quote: Magic Archer
    The Chinese are good fellows. I compared their army and fleet here as early as 90x and now. They made a giant breakthrough! We have something to learn from them. But it would not hurt to cooperate with Israel either, especially in terms of drones. Like Jews, it’s a world leader.

    If I were the head of Russia, I would in Israel, to drones, buy:
    2. Rifles TAR-21.
    3. Tanks Merkava.
    4. TBTR Namer.
    5. IDF D9.
    6. Separately, the Meil ​​Ruach system.
    7. The Iron Dome system.
    8. Rockets Penguin.
    1. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 April 25 2014 21: 57
      0
      Quote: ar-ren
      If I were the head of Russia, I would buy drones in Israel

      What for? Everything listed by you either has our analogues, or it can be created with us. request The tavor unit is controversial, Carrot is clearly not for our conditions and dear, Meil ​​Ruach + \ - Arena, we don’t need an iron dome at all, by air defense system we are practically ahead of the rest. With a bulldozer in general borsch, nakoy it to us? Sorry, put you a minus.
      1. ar-ren
        ar-ren April 25 2014 22: 42
        +2
        >> Everything listed by you either has our analogues, or can be created with us.

        What I have listed, we have no analogues, and will be created for a long time. A simple example. The new Ivan Gren BDK has been under construction for 12 years, despite the fact that it is 4 times lighter than Mistral, it has already demanded 50% of the cost of Mistral and it is not known how much it will require in the future.

        >> Carrots are clearly not for our conditions and dear

        Merkava - a tank of the city and / or defense. I assess how very likely in the future for Russia, fighting along the lines of Syria in cities against crowds of militants or defending against China’s tank columns. But for the throw to the English Channel, the T-72 is a good tank. But I do not see any opportunities for Russia to go in columns to the English Channel in the next 100 years.

        >> Meil ​​Ruach + \ - Arena

        The cloak has already been worked out, for some reason the Arena is not set. I wonder why?...

        >> we don't need an iron dome at all, we are practically ahead of the rest of the world in terms of air defense systems.

        The LCD is an excellent anti-missile defense that participated in battles and proved to be effective. We have nothing comparable, or I don’t know about it.
        1. Ingvar 72
          Ingvar 72 April 26 2014 11: 37
          +1
          Quote: ar-ren
          What I have listed, we have no analogues, and will be created for a long time.

          I would not give Gren an example. Listen to you, then in 1943 the best solution would be to buy the Tigers from the Wehrmacht. We will not raise our army with the purchase of weapons, and in conditions of foreign policy pressure we will make it dependent on imported consumables. hi
          1. Sandov
            Sandov April 27 2014 11: 53
            0
            Quote: Ingvar 72
            I would not give Gren an example. Listen to you, then in 1943 the best solution would be to buy the Tigers from the Wehrmacht. We will not raise our army with arms purchases, and in conditions of foreign policy pressure we will make dependent on imported consumables

            Based on Israeli developments, create your own and not depend on anyone. And Israel is good and Russia.
      2. ar-ren
        ar-ren April 25 2014 22: 44
        +1
        >> With a bulldozer in general borscht, what is it to us?

        IDF D9 has insane anti-mine resistance. Russia has nothing like D9 for making aisles among ruins in cities. If B. Assad had such bulldozers, the war in Syria would have ended long ago.
      3. ar-ren
        ar-ren April 25 2014 22: 47
        +2
        >> Sorry, I gave you a minus.

        When you disagree with someone, ask the person to justify their position. Often, the other person just knows more.
    2. Neksel
      Neksel April 27 2014 00: 58
      +1
      Quote: ar-ren
      Quote: Magic Archer
      The Chinese are good fellows. I compared their army and fleet here as early as 90x and now. They made a giant breakthrough! We have something to learn from them. But it would not hurt to cooperate with Israel either, especially in terms of drones. Like Jews, it’s a world leader.

      If I were the head of Russia, I would in Israel, to drones, buy:
      ...
      3. Tanks Merkava.
      .


      Israel has not sold and does not plan to sell Merkava tanks. Generally.
      1. Sandov
        Sandov April 27 2014 11: 54
        0
        Quote: Neksel
        Israel has not sold and does not plan to sell Merkava tanks. Generally.

        Do not be so categorical. Everything in the world is changing. Nobody thought that in Kiev the Americans would bring the Nazis to power.
        1. Neksel
          Neksel April 29 2014 02: 41
          0
          Well, there is always a chance. I agree. But the fact is that until these tanks become obsolete - they (equipment) are partially secret.
          I don’t think that the command of Tzahal will even decide on the theoretical possibility of hitting a certain number of units for study by the enemy. Thank God enough and so what to sell, and in other areas.
  20. mr_Doom
    mr_Doom April 25 2014 21: 52
    +1
    Quote: ar-ren
    Quote: Magic Archer
    The Chinese are good fellows. I compared their army and fleet here as early as 90x and now. They made a giant breakthrough! We have something to learn from them. But it would not hurt to cooperate with Israel either, especially in terms of drones. Like Jews, it’s a world leader.

    If I were the head of Russia, I would in Israel, to drones, buy:
    2. Rifles TAR-21.
    3. Tanks Merkava.
    4. TBTR Namer.
    5. IDF D9.
    6. Separately, the Meil ​​Ruach system.
    7. The Iron Dome system.
    8. Rockets Penguin.

    And why do you need: intent, merkava, lcd? Wash is just a list of friends from Israel. By the way, the penguin is not from there (to mine).
    1. ar-ren
      ar-ren April 25 2014 22: 35
      +2
      >> And why do you need: intend, merkava, lcd?
      1. a) Somehow everyone agrees that the Merkava is the only tank, from the very beginning of the design, focused on the survival of the crew. And I remember the simple fact that "it takes 48 hours for the industry to release a tank; and it takes six months to prepare the crew for this tank" b) Merkava is a defense tank. I do not believe that Russia will have to advance towards the English Channel anytime soon, but I am afraid that Russia will have to defend against China.
      2. Intent - this is a TBTR, which calmly keeps an ATGM hit or a mine detonation of up to 100 kg, providing excellent survival for the landing party and crew. According to the experience of fighting in Syria, B. Assad is incredibly short of this TBTR for fighting in cities. I believe that the next war in Russia will resemble the current war in Syria.
      3. The iron dome has proven itself in defense against missiles. Missile defense is a matter of seams, as far as I know. On ships for protection against anti-ship missiles, IMHO, is also the best option.
      1. Semen Semyonitch
        Semen Semyonitch April 26 2014 00: 03
        0
        Quote: ar-ren
        . I believe that the next war in Russia will resemble the current war in Syria.


        Who and how will SSA type militants get to our cities? With the complete connivance of the special services and the drunk-president? Now is not the time, they will be choking on the approaches, in the mountainous areas of Central Asia and the Caucasus. They will not be allowed to reach the cities. What's wrong with the Terminator in town?
        1. ar-ren
          ar-ren April 26 2014 00: 19
          0
          >> Who and how will SSA-type militants get to our cities? With the complete connivance of the secret services and the drunk-president?

          I'll just leave it here:

          This will be clever enough.

          >> What's wrong with "Terminator" in the city?

          The fact that a direct hit in the action movie from a 30 mm gun is required in order to kill him. 120 mm projectile in the city kills with a high-explosive action.
    2. ar-ren
      ar-ren April 25 2014 22: 56
      +1
      >> By the way, the penguin is not from there (mine).

      I apologize! Python 5 accidentally confused with the Penguin! =)
      Promo video:
  21. The comment was deleted.
    1. Semen Semyonitch
      Semen Semyonitch April 26 2014 00: 27
      +1
      Quote: ar-ren
      This will be clever enough.


      Do you always have such doubts? I understand, you are concerned about the topic of radical Islam. And yet, how can this whole crowd be armed for a FULL city battle? I already answered, with the complete inaction of the security services or the seizure of military arsenals. And advice, do not consider yourself a priori more knowledgeable opponent hi
  22. ar-ren
    ar-ren April 26 2014 00: 32
    +1
    Quote: Semen Semenych
    And yet, how can this whole crowd be armed for a FULL city battle?


    They ALREADY have all the necessary weapon caches. And yes, the FSB knows about it. And they are all ALREADY reduced to analogues of Ukrainian hundreds. And yes, the FSB knows about it. That is, they just need to take this weapon at the right signal and arrive at the place of deployment of its hundreds.

    Quote: Semen Semenych
    And advice, do not consider yourself a priori more knowledgeable opponent


    I never consider myself a priori more knowledgeable than anyone else.
    1. Semen Semyonitch
      Semen Semyonitch April 26 2014 00: 38
      0
      Quote: ar-ren
      I never consider myself a priori informed by anyone.


      Mutually! hi
  23. ar-ren
    ar-ren April 26 2014 00: 43
    0
    Quote: Semen Semenych
    Mutually!


    Therefore, if I do not understand the position of another person, I ask why he thinks so?

    But there are situations when I figured out a certain issue inside and out, and I know for sure that "twice two is four". And to someone else's cry "twice two - five!" no need to expect that I will inquire this person about something. I will just show other people that this person is either ignorant or simply inadequate.
  24. Semen Semyonitch
    Semen Semyonitch April 26 2014 00: 50
    0
    Quote: ar-ren
    I will simply show other people that the person is either ignorant or simply inadequate.


    Is this a generalization or is it specific to someone? Yes, I am not strong in urban combat, so I asked about the Terminator. As for the "next war" in Russia, you are exaggerating.
    1. ar-ren
      ar-ren April 26 2014 01: 11
      +1
      Quote: Semyon Semyonich
      About the "next war" in Russia, you exaggerate


      Who could have guessed in 1989 that 5 thousand Russians would be killed in Chechnya in 120 years? Anyone who would have said this in 1989, in response received not that "exaggerate", but simply an offer to visit the durka.
      1. Semen Semyonitch
        Semen Semyonitch April 26 2014 01: 18
        0
        Quote: ar-ren
        Who in 1989 could have suggested that in 5 years 120 thousand Russians would be killed in Chechnya?


        You know very well that the comparison is not correct. Who in 1989 could have suggested that the mighty and indestructible would crumble? Work on the errors has been done ... The hysteria of the states is a clear confirmation of this ...
  25. ar-ren
    ar-ren April 26 2014 00: 57
    +2
    Quote: Ingvar 72
    With a bulldozer in general borsch, nakoy it to us? Sorry, put you a minus.


    http://topwar.ru/12082-izrailskiy-ne-uyazvimymyy-60-tonnyy-robot-buldozer-udvaiv
    aet-svoi-sily.html
    http://ost-front.ru/2010/07/30/caterpillar-d9/
  26. ar-ren
    ar-ren April 26 2014 01: 26
    0
    Quote: Semen Semenych
    You know very well that the comparison is not correct. Who in 1989 could have suggested that the mighty and indestructible would crumble?


    Exactly! Who can now assume that there will be a war on Russian territory? "Oops, we forgot about the First and Second Chechen Wars!"

    Quote: Semen Semenych
    Work on the errors carried out ... The hysteria of the states is a clear confirmation ...


    I wonder what the work was done on the bugs? I personally do not see any work on the errors so far. But maybe you have other information?
    1. Semen Semyonitch
      Semen Semyonitch April 26 2014 01: 50
      -1
      Quote: ar-ren
      I wonder what the work was done on the bugs? I personally do not see any work on the errors so far. But maybe you have other information?


      If you do not go deep into the jungle of discussion, then are you really not seeing changes in foreign policy? (In the domestic, it’s more difficult, but there is one). Colossal work is also being done on issues of interethnic hatred, the results are visible with the naked eye.

      P / S: I apologize for pauses in communication, I just communicate in addition to several other resources.
  27. ar-ren
    ar-ren April 26 2014 01: 40
    +2
    Quote: Wheel
    Quote: 11111mail.ru
    Chinese with a Jew - brothers forever?

    Hmm, the Jews will reread the torus with the Talmud and discover that half of the Chinese are Jews ... laughing


    Do not open. A Jew, as you know, can only be born from a Jewish mother. And the point.
    1. Neksel
      Neksel April 27 2014 01: 03
      +2
      Quote: ar-ren
      A Jew, as you know, can only be born from a Jewish mother. And the point.


      In addition, any past conversion can become a Jew. "Only" and "dot" are not relevant.
  28. ar-ren
    ar-ren April 26 2014 02: 01
    0
    Quote: Semen Semenych
    If you do not go deep into the jungle of discussion, then are you really not seeing changes in foreign policy? (In the domestic, it’s more difficult, but there is one). Colossal work is also being done on issues of interethnic hatred, the results are visible with the naked eye.

    P / S: I apologize for pauses in communication, I just communicate in addition to several other resources.


    1. Foreign policy is mediocre according to my estimates. As a result of such a policy, Russia has no allies AT ALL. Even Lukashenko argues that he is ready to fight with the Russians. In the same Ukraine, $ 250 (!!!!!!!) billions of dollars were buzzed, and now we are on the verge of war with them! Fine! In Tajikistan, they simply take Russian aircraft pilots hostage, demanding that the nephew of the President of Tajikistan taken from the drug trade be released from the pre-trial detention center. Russia agrees with an ultimatum! This is a complete fierce shit!
    2. In the sphere of international relations, I do not see any positive. The war in Chechnya was stopped only at the cost of an insane tribute from the Russian population in favor of the Chechens. Once oil prices fall and Russia is unable to pay tribute to Chechnya, war will break out again. Well, about the relationship between migrants and Russians in Siberia, the video is higher. The Wahhabis are simply killing the Orthodox. If this is "good work in international relations," then what is "bad work"?

    UPD. By the way, the words of patriots look funny - "The USA is afraid of us!" - while the same Tajikistan simply wipes its feet on Russia. =)
  29. Semen Semyonitch
    Semen Semyonitch April 26 2014 02: 23
    +1
    Quote: ar-ren
    1. Foreign policy is mediocre according to my estimates. As a result of such a policy, Russia has no allies AT ALL. Even Lukashenko argues that he is ready to fight with the Russians.


    The allies of Russia, the army and navy, have been for centuries, the rest are fellow travelers. Do the states have many allies? Not vassals, namely allies?
    Quote: ar-ren
    In the same Ukraine, $ 250 (!!!!!!!) billions of dollars were buzzed, and now we are on the verge of war with them! Fine!


    Well, at the expense of 250 billion, I did not think it was not my topic, but anyway, this is the result of the complete absence of any intelligible policy for the past quarter century.
    Quote: ar-ren
    2. In the field of interethnic relations I do not see any positive. The war in Chechnya was stopped only at the price of insane tribute from the Russian population in favor of the Chechens. As soon as oil prices fall and Russia cannot pay tribute to Chechnya, the war will break out again.


    No matter how, but the goal was achieved. If you can’t win, pay off, this postulate has not been canceled. Russia needed a pause as never before.
    Quote: ar-ren
    If this is "good work in international relations," then what is "bad work"?

    You see, if a patient with an advanced form of tuberculosis comes to the doctor, after a week the doctor will not cure him.
  30. ar-ren
    ar-ren April 26 2014 02: 33
    0
    Quote: Semen Semenych
    The allies of Russia, the army and navy, have been for centuries, the rest are fellow travelers. Do the states have many allies? Not vassals, namely allies?


    Depends on the theater of war and on the enemy. Against Libya - the little things of NATO and France. Against Syria, they have allies of Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Against Russia will be Ukraine and the European Union. Against China - Vietnam, Japan, Kazakhstan, India, Indonesia, the Philippines.

    Quote: Semen Semenych

    Well, at the expense of 250 billion, I did not think it was not my topic, but anyway, this is the result of the complete absence of any intelligible policy for the past quarter century.


    These are the words of Medvedev. Who, if not the head of government, should know what is happening in the state?

    Quote: Semen Semenych
    No matter how, but the goal was achieved. If you can’t win, pay off, this postulate has not been canceled. Russia needed a pause as never before.


    But Stalin basmachey just crushed. And crushed! But he didn’t buy them off ...

    Quote: Semen Semenych
    You see, if a patient with an advanced form of tuberculosis comes to the doctor, after a week the doctor will not cure him.


    The whole joke that I DO NOT SEE the treatment! =)

    UPD. In general, here in the situation with Chechnya a joke is obtained. Russia, armed with strategic nuclear forces, tanks, planes and a hundred times more population, lost the war to the enemy armed with small arms, RPGs and MANPADS! And pays tribute! This, I don’t know, from my point of view, is just an incredible shame for the Russians!
    1. Semen Semyonitch
      Semen Semyonitch April 26 2014 02: 50
      +1
      Quote: ar-ren
      Depends on the theater of war and on the enemy. Against Libya - the little things of NATO and France. Against Syria, they have allies of Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Against Russia will be Ukraine and the European Union. Against China - Vietnam, Japan, Kazakhstan, India, Indonesia, the Philippines.


      NATO and France are vassals. But even in NATO there is no single US support. Saudis and Qatar are generally Anglo-Saxon puppet governments. Vietnam, India, Indonesia are not allies. Just a skillful game on the fear of China. Japan also wants to pursue a more independent policy.
      Quote: ar-ren
      These are the words of Medvedev. Who, if not the head of government, should know what is happening in the state?

      Then there are no questions, authority ...
      Quote: ar-ren
      But Stalin basmachey just crushed. And crushed! But he didn’t buy them off ...

      Do you recall the years of the Chechen wars?
      Quote: ar-ren
      The whole joke that I DO NOT SEE the treatment! =)

      But I see. Just by the example of my city. About 10 years ago crowds of narcotics and drug addicts walked around the district, now I do not see them. They built three sports fields and they DO NOT EMPTY ...
      Quote: ar-ren
      UPD. In general, here in the situation with Chechnya a joke is obtained. Russia, armed with strategic nuclear forces, tanks, planes and a hundred times more population, lost the war to the enemy armed with small arms, RPGs and MANPADS! And pays tribute! This, I don’t know, from my point of view, is just an incredible shame for the Russians!

      I wrote about Chechnya above. About the shame of Russian is your opinion. If Yeltsin is Russian, then I am the Chinese emperor.
  31. ar-ren
    ar-ren April 26 2014 02: 55
    0
    Quote: Semen Semenych
    Do you recall the years of the Chechen wars?


    The second Chechen did not lose Yeltsin.

    Quote: Semen Semenych
    But I see. Just an example of his city.


    a) I do not know where you live.
    b) but I know that right now the Russian population is fleeing from Stavropol, just like they were fleeing Chechnya in 1991-1994, abandoning all their property. And, interestingly, for the same reason! They are just killed there by non-Russians!

    Just great results in international politics! Glory to the President!

    Quote: Semen Semenych
    I wrote about Chechnya above. About the shame of Russian is your opinion. If Yeltsin is Russian, then I am the Chinese emperor.


    a) The Russians lost 2 (two) consecutive wars with Chechnya.
    b) Yeltsin lost only the First. The second was lost by another person.
    c) The Russians managed to choose him after the defeat several more times. And they will choose more! And then they will choose the one whom he points to!
    d) "If the third husband hits in the face, it’s not the husband, but the face!"
    1. Semen Semyonitch
      Semen Semyonitch April 26 2014 03: 18
      0
      Quote: ar-ren
      a) The Russians lost 2 (two) consecutive wars with Chechnya.
      b) Yeltsin lost only the First. The second was lost by another person.


      a) then there were other times
      b) "The other person" did not start it, but finished it ...
  32. Semen Semyonitch
    Semen Semyonitch April 26 2014 03: 12
    0
    Quote: ar-ren
    The second Chechen did not lose Yeltsin.

    No, of course ... He would have won laughing
    Quote: ar-ren
    a) I do not know where you live.
    b) but I know that right now the Russian population is fleeing from Stavropol, just like they were fleeing Chechnya in 1991-1994, abandoning all their property. And, interestingly, for the same reason! They are just killed there by non-Russians!

    a) Klimovsk
    b) The problem is in our mentality. When we are friendly, there will be no problems. Into the account "kill" throw the link?
    c) Well, why immediately? Will be worthy-choose.
    d) It is necessary to look at the face before getting married.
  33. tnship2
    tnship2 April 26 2014 03: 31
    +1
    Excuse me for ignorance and are there Chinese Jews?
    1. Kus Imak
      Kus Imak April 26 2014 05: 22
      +1
      Quote: tnship2
      Excuse me for ignorance and are there Chinese Jews?


      A Jew, or rather a Jew, can be a person of any ethnicity, since a Jew is a religion. Chinese Jews are called Yutai, ethnic Russian Jews are called Subbotniks. And those who are called Russian Jews in everyday speech are European Jews and are called Ashkenazi. In general, in the former USSR there were 6 different ethnic groups of Jews (before the war 7).
  34. Free wind
    Free wind April 26 2014 05: 20
    +1
    I don’t know, but I myself saw in Bukhara the nationality is a Bukhara Jew. I don’t understand what it is. I got an answer to my questions about how he differs from the Uzbek, but it’s not clear: they are Uzbeks, and I am a Bukhara Jew.
    1. Kus Imak
      Kus Imak April 26 2014 05: 35
      +1
      Quote: Free Wind
      I don’t know, but I myself saw in Bukhara the nationality is a Bukhara Jew. I don’t understand what it is. I got an answer to my questions about how he differs from the Uzbek, but it’s not clear: they are Uzbeks, and I am a Bukhara Jew.


      Well, naturally, Uzbeks and Bukhara Jews are completely different peoples.
  35. ar-ren
    ar-ren April 26 2014 16: 04
    0
    Quote: Semen Semenych
    Into the account "kill" the link?

    type in a search engine "the Russian population is fleeing from Stavropol", there will be a sea of ​​information.

    PS Above, I posted a video about Wahhabis from the Khanty-Mansi Autonomous Area. And today there was an attempted terrorist attack - http://www.znak.com/hmao/news/2014-04-26/1021857.html
    Hi Syria!