Military Review

American myths about Victory

439
American myths about Victory72 a year ago, the United States entered World War II. According to the common belief of Americans, this fact predetermined its final outcome.


Many Americans (hardly mistaken if I say that the majority) are firmly convinced that their country made a decisive contribution to the victory over Germany and Japan in World War II and that the USSR would have been crushed by Hitler without American supplies. weapons. On the Internet, you can often stumble upon sincere statements by US residents, such as "we saved the Russians from Hitler" in different variations. Sometimes the assertions that “without the Americans we would not have won the war,” can now be heard from compatriots.

The author does not intend to deny the significant role of the United States in the victory over the countries of the aggressive bloc, especially Japan, the substantial assistance of the United States to the Soviet Union with military materials in 1941 – 1945. The idea is to accurately identify the magnitude of this role.

Without a doubt, Americans have the right to be proud of what their country did during the Second World War. The USA (in alliance with the countries of the British Commonwealth) inflicted major defeats on the naval and air forces of Japan, and caused serious damage to the military and industrial vehicles of Nazi Germany. The role of the United States in supplying the USSR with weapons, vehicles, valuable industrial raw materials, medicines and food during the war is also important (its value is lower). As a result of the Second World War, the United States became the superpower dominant in most parts of the globe. The United States achieved these outstanding results at the cost of relatively small losses - only 322 200 US citizens died, almost exclusively military personnel, since military actions almost did not affect the territory of the United States. At the same time, the United States avoided a fall in the living standards of its population. On the contrary, their economy experienced an intensive rise throughout the war years.

There are no grounds for ascribing merit to the United States in World War II beyond the above. Let us now deal with this role with specific examples.

1. "Arsenal of democracy"

In March, the United States Congress 1941 passed a law granting countries “whose defense is important to US interests” preferential loans for the purchase of weapons and other military materials from the United States. The duty for weapons and materials that would have been expended during the war was declared written off. This system has received the well-known name lend lease. The first recipient of American aid was England. She also remained the main recipient of Lend-Lease deliveries during all the years of the Second World War ($ 31,4 billion; $ 11,3 $ USSR).

The Lend-Lease Act was extended to the USSR only on November 7 of 1941 of the year, but actual deliveries began earlier after September 30 of 1941 during a visit to Moscow of the special representative of US President W.A. Harriman and England’s Minister of Military Industry U. Beaverbrooke first delivery protocol signed

The total volume of deliveries under the Lend-Lease in the USSR is usually estimated at 4% of the total volume of USSR GDP during this period. However, this is not an indicator, since Lend-Lease assistance was not intended to replace the military production of the USSR. A more objective, though differentiated, indicator is the share of American supplies for certain types of military production. Here it is also necessary to take into account that the main assistance with weapons came to the USSR in 1941 – 1942, then the main emphasis in the supplies was made on military materials scarce in the USSR and on food.

The US assistance to our country was significant in such types of products, for example, canned meat (480% of the production of the USSR over the years), non-ferrous metals (from 76% to 223% for various metals), animal fats (107%), wool (102%), car tires (92%), explosives (53%). The supplies of trucks (375 thousand), jeeps (51,5 thousand), barbed wire (45 thousand tons), telephone cable (670 thousand miles), telephone sets (189 thousand pieces) were significant. Deliveries of the main types of weapons amounted to 12% of the output by Soviet factories tanks, 20% of the release of bombers, 16% of the release of fighters, 22% of the release of military vessels. Of particular note is the supply of radars (445 pieces) [ii].

Known is the unofficial assessment of the role of Lend-Lease supplies for the course of the Great Patriotic War by such authority as Marshal G.K. Zhukov (reported by KGB chief VE N. Semichastny N. S. Khrushchev, it served as one of the reasons for removing Zhukov from his post in 1957): “Now they say that the Allies never helped us ... But you can't deny that the Americans were driving us so much materials, without which we could not form our reserves and could not continue the war ... We got 350 of thousands of cars, and what cars! .. We did not have explosives, gunpowder. There was nothing to equip ammunition. The Americans really bailed us out with gunpowder and explosives. And how much they drove us to sheet steel. Would we be able to quickly start the production of tanks, if not for the American help with steel. And now it’s a matter of fact that we had all this in abundance ”[iii]. It is necessary, however, to bear in mind that in this quotation many expressions could be deliberately distorted in order to present the speaker in an unfavorable light.

The fact remains that in the most difficult period of the war for our country - in the summer and autumn of 1941 - no lend-lease supplies were made in the USSR yet. The fascist German armies were stopped at the approaches to Leningrad and Moscow exclusively with our weapons. It would be correct to assume that American economic assistance to the Soviet armed forces (which had developed in large quantities only since 1943 of the year!) Accelerated the final defeat of the German fascist troops on the Eastern Front. But it would be a mistake to conclude that without such help this victory would not have come at all.

2. "The landing in Normandy was the decisive battle of the war"

The invasion of US and British troops into Northern France, which began on 6 on June 1944, in the West attaches importance to the turning point during World War II. However, this estimate ignores the fact of the numerous defeats that the Wehrmacht had already suffered on the Eastern Front since December 1941. Since November 1942 of the year, with the exception of short-term episodes of the counteroffensive near Kharkov and the initial stage of the battle of Kursk, German troops in the East were in strategic defense. By the summer of 1944, the Soviet armies liberated most of the territory of the USSR originally captured by the Hitlerites and in a number of places reached the USSR state border. The final outcome of the war was no longer in doubt, and this outcome was determined precisely on the Eastern Front.

Taking into account the overall strategic picture of the Second World War, the traditional point of view of Russian historiography seems to be more reasonable, according to which the landing of Anglo-American troops in Normandy was undertaken in the summer of 1944, with the aim of preventing the final defeat of the Wehrmacht by Soviet troops alone.
The scope and intensity of the battles in the Western European theater of operations (theater of operations) in 1944 – 1945. I have never come close to what happened on the Eastern Front not only in 1941 – 1943, but also in these last two years of the war. The Soviet-German front until the very 9 in May 1945, remained the main front in Europe.

By January 1945, at the time of the maximum exertion of German forces on the Western Front caused by an attempted offensive in the Ardennes, parts of the Wehrmacht in the West totaled only 73 divisions [iv], while in the East at the same time there were 179 German divisions. In general, 80% of the personnel of the German army, 68% of its artillery, 64% of its tanks and 48% aviation Luftwaffe during this period were used against the Soviet troops [v]. Thus, in the last year of the war, the main forces of the German army did not fight in the West, but in the East.

On the Eastern Front, the Wehrmacht suffered decisive losses in World War II. 70% of all German aircraft destroyed during the war, 75% of lost tanks and 74% losses of German artillery fell on the war with the USSR [vi]. It is more difficult to always estimate the number of casualties. However, the Wehrmacht's list of connections shows that in all the years of the Second World War, the German land divisions were completely defeated on the battlefield and deleted from this list of 130. Of these, 104, that is, 80%, were defeated by the Soviet troops [vii].

3. "The United States alone defeated Germany in the West and Japan"

The myth of the decisive role of the United States in World War II is aimed at reducing the role not only of the USSR, but also of other members of the anti-fascist coalition - the countries of the British Commonwealth and China. Meanwhile, when we speak about those theaters where American troops acted, it must be borne in mind that they fought every time as part of the coalition forces, not always having a majority in them.

The United States actually entered the war to the east of the Atlantic only by landing in North Africa on 8 on November 1942. And it was a blow, not even in Germany, but in Italy and Vichy France. In 1940 – 1942 British Commonwealth forces themselves repelled a series of offensive "axis" in North Africa. The British victory at El Alamein in October-November 1942, which resulted in the final turning point in the war on the Mediterranean theater of operations, was won before the arrival of American troops.

The role of American supplies in the armament and equipment of the British troops was significantly higher than their role for the Soviet troops. However, the subjects of the British Empire paid for these supplies with their blood. In World War II, 364 killed thousands of residents of the United Kingdom (1 / 6 - civilians) and 109 thousands of inhabitants of the British dominions and colonies [viii], that is, a total of more than Americans.

Until the summer of 1944, the number of ground forces of the British Empire who fought with opponents in the West and Asia-Pacific theaters (and together, and each separately), consistently exceeded the number of American troops stationed there [ix]. Only after the landing in Normandy, this ratio began to change slowly.

In the “Battle of the Atlantic”, the role of the British Navy, which destroyed the German submarines 525 (while the US Navy - 174) [x], was decisive.
In the APR, the Americans fought together with the Australians and the British colonial forces in India. In addition, it is impossible to discount here the constant (albeit passive in itself) factor of China, which constantly distracted more than half of the Japanese land army and the considerable forces of Japanese aviation. These forces in the aggregate, and not only the Americans, ensured the Allies victory over the sea and air power of Japan. And, as has been repeatedly written, it was the USSR’s entry into the war against Japan, and not the atomic bombing, that was the “last sword strike” that forced Japan to capitulate.

Thus, even on those WWII theaters where the decisive role belonged to the Western allies, the role of the United States in the coalition forces cannot be regarded as absolutely dominant.

[i] [i] W. Churchill. The Second World War. The 6 T.T.2. - M., 1997.– C.9.
[ii] Comp. by: Lend-Lease. Wikipedia; The Great Patriotic War. In 4 pr. Kn.4. - M., 1999. - С.214 – 215.
[iii] Cit. by: N.Ya. Zenkovich. Marshals and general secretaries. - M., 1997. - S. 161 – 162.
[iv] K. Tippelskirch. History World War II. - SPb .; M., 1999. - C.706.
[v] Calculated by: World War II. In 4 pr. Kn.3. - M., 1999. - C.428.
[vi] V.N. Shunkov. Weapons of the Red Army. - Minsk, 1999. - C.9.
[vii] Calculated by: V.N. Shunkov. Wehrmacht weapons. - Minsk, 1999. - С.408 – 479.
[viii] W. Churchill. UK cit. T.2. - C.9.
[ix] ibid. - C.8.
[x] ibid. - C.10.
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  1. misterwulf
    misterwulf 28 December 2013 09: 07
    +32
    Although with grub they really helped. Especially "protein" - stewed meat, dairy and egg semi-finished products, etc.
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 28 December 2013 13: 45
      +39
      Quote: misterwulf
      Although with grub they really helped. Especially "protein" - stewed meat, dairy and egg semi-finished products, etc.

      It should be understood that if for some point the percentage is high, then for dozens of other deliveries it was not at all. 4% of assistance is minuscule, given the power of American industry, and this verbiage is an attempt to exaggerate the role of the United States in defeating the Nazis.
      1. avg
        avg 28 December 2013 15: 33
        +22
        Quote: Setrac
        ... and this verbiage is an attempt to exaggerate the role of the United States in the defeat of the Nazis.

        A similar aftertaste from the article remains.
        And the mattresses want to answer with the words of Vysotsky:
        "And a rifle for you, and send you into battle ..."
        1. sledgehammer102
          sledgehammer102 28 December 2013 16: 19
          +14
          Quote: avg
          "And a rifle for you, and send you into battle ..."

          It's just that the Americans correctly understood the Chinese wisdom, "It is more correct to look from the hill at how the lion and the dragon are fighting" - something like this sounds.

          Hence their colonies are piled up under the NATO flag, because not everyone realizes that the whole of Europe still pays amers a fee for their release, often without realizing it ... Now another generation of people has grown up who no longer have to they are going to pay, which predetermines the collapse of the next snickering and impudent empire, along with the Roman one.
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 28 December 2013 18: 20
            +15
            Quote: sledgehammer102
            It's just that the Americans correctly understood the Chinese wisdom, "It is more correct to look from the hill at how the lion and the dragon are fighting" - something like this sounds.

            The Chinese were not so wise, the United States itself created the prerequisites for the Second World War to happen at all, and they themselves profited from it, the Chinese did not think of it.
            1. Apologet.Ru
              Apologet.Ru 28 December 2013 23: 24
              +9
              hi
              Especially if you bear in mind that in fact the preparation for the Second World War began in 1929 with a meeting of American President Herbert Hoover with prominent US businessmen from Russell Center. They told Hoover: “The crisis is approaching, trying to avoid the difficult situation in which the United States may find itself is only possible by changing the balance of power in the world. clutches of the Versailles Treaty ". "But this requires money," Hoover objected, "several billion. And why do we need it, what will happen next?" "And then Russia and Germany must be pitted against their heads so that, having risen after the crisis, the United States would find itself only one-on-one with the remaining of these opponents."
              1. Apologet.Ru
                Apologet.Ru 28 December 2013 23: 43
                +8
                hi
                And from my childhood I remember an excerpt from the movie "Liberation", when the Supreme Commander reads a message from Churchill, in which he tearfully asks to strike at the German troops in connection with the difficult situation of the Allied troops in the Ardennes and Northern Alsace in December 1944 - "In the West, there are very hard battles ... can we count on a major Russian offensive on the Vistula front or somewhere else during January ... I consider the matter urgent".
                The next day, Churchill received the following answer: "Given the position of our allies on the Western Front, the Supreme High Command Headquarters decided to complete preparations at an accelerated pace and, regardless of the weather, launch widespread offensive operations against the Germans on the entire central front no later than the second half of January."
                Churchill called Stalin's answer “An exciting message». The Allies breathed a sigh of relief, as they had no doubt that in the very near future "All the forces of the Germans on the Eastern Front will be completely constrained by the Russians."
                Unlike the Western powers, the Soviet Union has always honestly and conscientiously fulfilled its obligations to the Allies in the anti-Hitler coalition.
                Assistance to allied forces in the West was accelerated. The headquarters of the Supreme High Command postponed the transition to the offensive of the Soviet troops from 20 to 12 on January.
                French historian Jacques Mordal duly evaluates this decision, aimed at “To ease the pressure the Americans in the Ardennes have". On this day, Soviet troops went on the offensive from the Baltic Sea to the Carpathians to provide assistance to the troops of the Western allies that were defeated in the Ardennes and Alsace. The German high command was forced to abandon the completion of offensive operations on the Western Front, and suspended the offensive in the Ardennes.
                Anglo-American forces in the Ardennes, Young notes, were saved because "The Russians of the 12 of January launched a great winter offensive."
                1. Aaron Zawi
                  Aaron Zawi 29 December 2013 00: 01
                  -6
                  Quote: Apologet.Ru
                   
                  Assistance to allied forces in the West was accelerated. The headquarters of the Supreme High Command postponed the transition to the offensive of the Soviet troops from 20 to 12 on January.

                  Well, yes, the Red Army began the Vistula-Oder operation on 12 on January, and the Allies completed the rout of the Germans in the Arden operation on 15 on January.
                  1. cdrt
                    cdrt 29 December 2013 03: 12
                    -8
                    Quote: Aaron Zawi
                    Quote: Apologet.Ru
                     
                    Assistance to allied forces in the West was accelerated. The headquarters of the Supreme High Command postponed the transition to the offensive of the Soviet troops from 20 to 12 on January.

                    Well, yes, the Red Army began the Vistula-Oder operation on 12 on January, and the Allies completed the rout of the Germans in the Arden operation on 15 on January.


                    Dear, what are you doing!
                    You break dry facts one of the favorite legends of the local community laughing
                    For this, quite rightly, you will be given cons laughing
                  2. xan
                    xan 29 December 2013 20: 44
                    +26
                    Quote: Aron Zaavi
                    Well, yes, the Red Army began the Vistula-Oder operation on 12 on January, and the Allies completed the rout of the Germans in the Arden operation on 15 on January.

                    No need to post Wikipedia here, this is not the source to which you need to refer, although even according to this source the Allies did not defeat the Germans on January 15, but on January 29, and not the defeat, but the liquidation of the Arden ledge. A serious clarification, isn't it?
                    Quote: cdrt
                    Dear, what are you doing!
                    You break dry facts one of the favorite legends of the local community laughing

                    licked so licked.
                    you cannot be so in love and notorious at the same time
                    although you’re unlikely to spoil you
                    1. Aaron Zawi
                      Aaron Zawi 30 December 2013 00: 42
                      -4
                      Quote: xan
                      Quote: Aron Zaavi
                      Well, yes, the Red Army began the Vistula-Oder operation on 12 on January, and the Allies completed the rout of the Germans in the Arden operation on 15 on January.

                      No need to post Wikipedia here, this is not the source to which you need to refer, although even according to this source the Allies did not defeat the Germans on January 15, but on January 29, and not the defeat, but the liquidation of the Arden ledge. A serious clarification, isn't it?

                      Do you think other sources will give different dates? And according to your specification, I do not agree. By January 15, the entire German strike force in the Ardennes was ground and the Germans were only retreating. By 29 of January, the Allies had already begun the invasion of Germany.
                      1. Jack7691
                        Jack7691 2 January 2014 18: 21
                        +2
                        Correctly !
                        And the Germans grind the heroes from the Warsaw ghetto with bits!
                  3. aleksandrs95
                    aleksandrs95 2 January 2014 11: 41
                    +1
                    I want to remind one historical fact that the German Tigers essentially ran out of fuel, they became. The rear did not pull up on time, the difficult weather conditions did not allow the use of aviation. The Germans could bring down coalition troops, almost with their perfect coincidence, but the calculation was wrong lack of resources and, most importantly, lack of resources, predetermined the outcome of this German adventure. Although, to be honest, the Germans had enough fuel and a bit of resources, they could have managed to do this. I feel sorry for them, talented fought, well done. But the forces are completely unequal, especially against the coalition. With a German victory, the allies would be delayed by no more than 1,5 months. Their strength was much greater. And Stalin had to wait to take Berlin with a confident handicap.
                  4. not good
                    not good 2 January 2014 17: 00
                    +2
                    You are right, it was not necessary to rush with the help, they would all the same be forgotten, but you had to see how it ended. True, in a couple of days the Germans could surround a couple or even a dozen divisions of the Allies, but these would be the problems of the Allies.
              2. cdrt
                cdrt 29 December 2013 03: 00
                +1
                Quote: Apologet.Ru
                hi
                Especially if you bear in mind that in fact the preparation for the Second World War began in 1929 with a meeting of American President Herbert Hoover with prominent US businessmen from Russell Center. They told Hoover: “The crisis is approaching, trying to avoid the difficult situation in which the United States may find itself is only possible by changing the balance of power in the world. clutches of the Versailles Treaty ". "But this requires money," Hoover objected, "several billion. And why do we need it, what will happen next?" "And then Russia and Germany must be pitted against their heads so that, having risen after the crisis, the United States would find itself only one-on-one with the remaining of these opponents."


                My dear, this is standard about political chatter, they would read some memoirs of politicians of the 20s, for example.
                Of course, WWII was programmed, but not at 29, but at 19-20, when the enslaving Versailles and Trianon treaties were signed. And if Trianon is still the brainchild of Wilson's ideas in many respects, then Versailles, who programmed WWII in Europe, is the brainchild of Franks.
                The American 5 kopecks to prepare WWII is 1922, the Washington Treaty, which actually broke the ridge of Great Britain as the first power in the world. After it, the cleverest was clear that the war will be in Europe and on the theater of operations, and that Germany will be the enemy of Great Britain, and Japan will be the enemy of the United States and Great Britain (although right up to the signing of the Treaty in the Royal Navy everyone was aimed at the war with the United States in alliance with Japan). And that is why the Americans have helped the USSR since the beginning of the 20s. At the same time, everyone understood that the Bolsheviks, with their dreams of world domination (world revolution), would seek to capture as much as possible, and therefore they should be compensated for by the support of Germany.
        2. Anatolich
          Anatolich 28 December 2013 23: 26
          +9
          There is such a book "From Now and Forever" by the American author James Jones. The action takes place in the early forties and tells about the formation of the American contract army. The novel is autobiographical, that is, the author himself served in the army at that time. So the American officers told the soldiers about the Second World War, "Let the Fritz and Ivans kill each other first, and then we will enter the war." By the way, the book is very interesting, and if you come across, I advise you to read
          1. Alex 241
            Alex 241 28 December 2013 23: 38
            +4
            The film was shot on this book, but the book is undoubtedly better!
            1. pawel1961
              pawel1961 1 January 2014 17: 07
              0
              what is better to judge the reader.
          2. Ruslan67
            Ruslan67 28 December 2013 23: 46
            +5
            Quote: Anatolich
            There is such a book "

            There are also Young Lions of the Irvine Shaw And does anyone remember this Once Eagle does not remember the author and the book disappeared after two transfers request I read class in 6-7
            1. Alex 241
              Alex 241 28 December 2013 23: 53
              +5
              Read Ruslan, however, in '89.
              1. Ruslan67
                Ruslan67 28 December 2013 23: 55
                +3
                My picture has sharply decreased. Is it a bug on the site or skill?
                1. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 28 December 2013 23: 57
                  +3
                  Comments are many Ruslan.
                  1. Ruslan67
                    Ruslan67 28 December 2013 23: 58
                    +1
                    Quote: Alex 241
                    Many comments

                    I’ll have to go for a magnifying glass - I’m now with a beech and I don’t see a damn
                    1. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 29 December 2013 00: 21
                      +2
                      Zoom in the browser settings.
                      1. studentmati
                        studentmati 29 December 2013 00: 27
                        +2
                        Quote: Alex 241
                        Zoom in the browser settings.


                        laughing good And put on boots on the size more ... laughing On the second hundred lechge will be, believe ... laughing
                      2. Ruslan67
                        Ruslan67 29 December 2013 00: 37
                        +5
                        Quote: studentmati
                        And put on boots on the size more ..

                        I just moved from the kitchen where you can smoke to the room with the main computer on the network tongue Having an admin son and no choice laughing
                      3. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 29 December 2013 00: 43
                        0
                        Ruslan, do you have a modem on wires?
                      4. Ruslan67
                        Ruslan67 29 December 2013 00: 45
                        +1
                        Quote: Alex 241
                        modem on wires?

                        I have Wi-Fi for two apartments and the rest I side wassat
                    2. studentmati
                      studentmati 29 December 2013 00: 44
                      +1
                      Quote: Ruslan67
                      I just moved from the kitchen where you can smoke to the room with the main computer on the network. Having an admin son and no choice


                      Clear business! Son-in-law admin .....! recourse By the way, we understood right away ...
                    3. The comment was deleted.
                2. The comment was deleted.
      2. smile
        smile 29 December 2013 00: 19
        +2
        Ruslan67
        Well, at least I read this one. Also back in Soviet times.
      3. Jack7691
        Jack7691 2 January 2014 18: 25
        +1
        Yes, I bought the book "Once Upon a Eagle ..." in 1990 at a flea market. I highly recommend reading the class. There, by the way, a fact is described when US soldiers are seriously discussing the need to leave the screening position, since they are reluctant to die for the idea.
    2. cdrt
      cdrt 29 December 2013 03: 13
      0
      Quote: Anatolich
      There is such a book "From Now and Forever" by the American author James Jones. The action takes place in the early forties and tells about the formation of the American contract army. The novel is autobiographical, that is, the author himself served in the army at that time. So the American officers told the soldiers about the Second World War, "Let the Fritz and Ivans kill each other first, and then we will enter the war." By the way, the book is very interesting, and if you come across, I advise you to read


      Why contract?
      After all, then in the United States there was a draft army
  2. Evgan
    Evgan 29 December 2013 17: 37
    +5
    Excuse me, of course, but with what fright did the Yankees have to fight like Soviet soldiers did? They did not defend their native land, and the war entered, so to speak, for a company with the British, pursuing their goals.
    I do not condone the Americans, but they really had no reason to show such massive heroism.
  • starshina78
    starshina78 28 December 2013 19: 41
    +22
    Yes, the Americans would have dealt with Japan without us, but to say that we would not have mastered Hitler without them is a lie! Although only 4% of them gave us all kinds of equipment, but the technique was super! "Studebakers" were a dream of any front-line driver, "Fords" and "McKee", "Doji", "Willys" - these were excellent cars. Our pilots also praised the Boston bombers, but there was nothing to say about the Airacobra (you just need to remember Pokryshkin's words about this aircraft). But the Shermann tanks, according to our tankers, were lighters. The first thing our guys did was rip off all the skin inside the tank, which burned like a candle in the event of a hit, and the tanks themselves were not very good. But technology - technology, and most importantly - people! The glory about our soldiers is not for nothing thundering all over the world! They would have smashed fascism without a "second front". And one more thing must be taken into account - at first the Germans gave a worthy rebuff, that Stalin gave the command to start our offensive ahead of time in order to alleviate the fate of the Americans, and then they began to surrender to the Americans in batches, and they therefore quickly reached the Elbe, otherwise we would have to wait a very long time. Yes, and warriors - they are awful! Neither this nor that! So it was not the United States that won the war with Great Britain, but only one winner who bore the main burdens of the war on his shoulders - the USSR!
    1. Aaron Zawi
      Aaron Zawi 28 December 2013 20: 07
      +2
      Quote: starshina78
      But the Shermann tanks were, according to our tankers, they were lighters. The first thing our guys did was rip off all the skin inside the tank, which burned like a candle in the event of a hit, and the tanks themselves were not very good!

      If you are interested, I recommend Baryatinsky "Tanks Lend-Lease" and GSS Yu. Loza "Tankman on a foreign car".
    2. abdrah
      abdrah 29 December 2013 01: 44
      +2
      "Yes, the Americans would have dealt with Japan without us" - I have a big doubt on this score, a few days ago there was an article about how the Omerekan heroes fought against the Yapas in Indochina.
      http://warfiles.ru/show-45059-betonnyy-linkor.html
    3. cdrt
      cdrt 29 December 2013 03: 20
      0
      Quote: starshina78
      Yes, the Americans would have dealt with Japan without us, but to say that we would not have mastered Hitler without them is a lie! Although only 4% of them gave us all kinds of equipment, but the technique was super! "Studebakers" were a dream of any front-line driver, "Fords" and "McKee", "Doji", "Willys" - these were excellent cars. Our pilots also praised the Boston bombers, but there was nothing to say about the Airacobra (you just need to remember Pokryshkin's words about this aircraft). But the Shermann tanks, according to our tankers, were lighters. The first thing our guys did was rip off all the skin inside the tank, which burned like a candle in the event of a hit, and the tanks themselves were not very good. But technology - technology, and most importantly - people! The glory about our soldiers is not for nothing thundering all over the world! They would have smashed fascism without a "second front". And one more thing must be taken into account - at first the Germans gave a worthy rebuff, that Stalin gave the command to start our offensive ahead of time in order to alleviate the fate of the Americans, and then they began to surrender to the Americans in batches, and they therefore quickly reached the Elbe, otherwise we would have to wait a very long time. Yes, and warriors - they are awful! Neither this nor that! So it was not the United States that won the war with Great Britain, but only one winner who bore the main burdens of the war on his shoulders - the USSR!


      Sherman is certainly not a child prodigy, but it seems like they armed us with the guard units, which were given the best weapons of the available.
      As I understand it, at Sherman, when roughly equal to the T-34 in terms of protection, mobility, and armament, there were: a stabilizer, excellent sights, and ergonomics are better (well, this is not my opinion - from what I read)
      1. family tree
        family tree 29 December 2013 05: 06
        +2
        Quote: cdrt
        Sherman is certainly not a child prodigy, but it seems like they armed us with the guard units, which were given the best weapons of the available.
        As I understand it, at Sherman, when roughly equal to the T-34 in terms of protection, mobility, and armament, there were: a stabilizer, excellent sights, and ergonomics are better (well, this is not my opinion - from what I read)

        The protection is better, but leveled by the height of the hull, and after the summer of the 43rd it didn’t sing especially 51 or 45mm, mobility is worse, especially the lateral roll, a high center of gravity due to the cardan, the stabilizer did not play, since the gun is like the F-34, with I agree with the sights, they didn’t mention one more chip, the wet fighting unit didn’t detonate, even if the tank burned out, Vine is a witness. At the expense of ergonomics, they stripped everything inside so as not to burn and also knocked on armor with headsets soldier
        1. kenig1
          kenig1 29 December 2013 08: 10
          0
          Only the Germans called "Sherman" a lighter, fuel is gasoline and all the pluses are multiplied by one minus. Private 1st class Vernaya M. Barnett. assistant driver: “When I served as a tank commander in the Ubach area, Germany, two Panthers opened fire at us from a distance of 2000 yards and burned two Shermans. In turn, we achieved several hits, but our shells were unable to penetrate the armor of German tanks. The enemy retreated, but suffered no losses. ""
  • cdrt
    cdrt 29 December 2013 02: 42
    -11%
    Quote: Setrac
    Quote: misterwulf
    Although with grub they really helped. Especially "protein" - stewed meat, dairy and egg semi-finished products, etc.

    It should be understood that if for some point the percentage is high, then for dozens of other deliveries it was not at all. 4% of assistance is minuscule, given the power of American industry, and this verbiage is an attempt to exaggerate the role of the United States in defeating the Nazis.


    You yourself are not tired of the mantra about the fact that all of the USSR did everything alone? Then the IVS fought for every delivery ...
    If there is not enough brains to understand what a military economy is, then Spinoza answered you a long time ago: "ignorance is not an argument, ignorance is not a position."
    1. family tree
      family tree 29 December 2013 05: 27
      +6
      Quote: cdrt
      If there is not enough brains to understand what a military economy is, then Spinoza answered you a long time ago: "ignorance is not an argument, ignorance is not a position."

      Well, if we compare how much England and we were given, and how much England and the USSR fought for it, then when building the proportion, in comparison with the "cousins", it is really scanty. But, the truth is, England also supplied us with something, for example, Harikeins with a blue swastika, they wanted to give them to the Finns, but the circumstances changed, and there was no red paint request
    2. dddym
      dddym 29 December 2013 06: 05
      +11
      Atheism is the same religion, some believe that the USSR alone would defeat others with the same obstinacy deny it. And they both go to extremes. The USSR certainly received help, but without it the victory would have been ours anyway. In this war, there was a conscience on our side, and this is a very powerful weapon - believe me. The hardest 1942 year has proved it. But the snag at this time of help from the West was so little that talking about the decisive contribution of Lend - Lease is even ridiculous. Given that at that time German cars rode on American tires, and for some reason so far no one even appreciated the goods turnover of the countries of the anti-Hitler coalition with Germany precisely in these most difficult years for our country. But waving the treaty of friendship and cooperation between the USSR and Germany before the Second World War. If we finally really appreciate the relationship between the Lend-Lease \ US trade turnover with fascist Germany, then this assistance will not be so significant, and the amount paid by our country at the end of the Second World War generally covers the value of this Lend-Lease. If we judge a certain truth, then we need to adhere to it; if we are socialists, then what the hell need to pay for help if we fought with the general enemy, and if we are capitalists then what the hell do we always have to justify for the land lease if we are full of it paid?
    3. Setrac
      Setrac 29 December 2013 22: 02
      +3
      Quote: cdrt
      Then the IVS fought for every delivery ...

      Because he knew the United States could do more, much more.
      Quote: cdrt
      If brains are not enough to understand

      So insert your brains before blaming others.
  • F-22 Raptor
    F-22 Raptor 1 January 2014 16: 37
    -4
    after the civil war, remember how many millions of Russians they saved. It’s stupid to deny
    1. Genry
      Genry 2 January 2014 23: 33
      0
      Quote: F-22 Raptor
      after the civil war, remember how many millions of Russians they saved. It’s stupid to deny

      Emigration went to Europe, France mainly.
      And on the territory of Russia, America conducted aggressive actions.
      I have already "saved up".
    2. stroporez
      stroporez 5 January 2014 09: 45
      0
      Quote: F-22 Raptor
      after the civil war, remember how many millions of Russians they saved. It’s stupid to deny
      ----- aha ....... and quickly destroyed during the intervention ...... the same is foolish to deny. but if you still want to - go to the Solovki ... there is a monument to the "saved" .......
  • smile
    smile 28 December 2013 14: 19
    +25
    misterwulf
    Yes, they helped ... but not only did they help by no means disinterestedly, but also with considerable benefit for themselves.
    For those who will begin to accuse me of being bad, ingratitude and uryapatriotism, I strongly advise you to read first the book by Edward Stennius - The Riddles of Lend-Lease - Formula of Victory http://lib.rus.ec/b/184874/read I hope you don’t suspect that, chief Office for the observance of the Law on Lend-Lease in the fact that he sold out to the Bolsheviks and is our uryapatriot? :))) But he rests precisely on that. how profitable was Lend-Lease for the Americans.

    And yet, some quotes by American figures confirming my words:

    Harry Hopkins -
    "We Americans, however, are pragmatic people, and someone might ask:" 12,9 billion is a very high price. Is such a cost justified? "
    I think that we are even doubling back what we spent. Lend-lease did not harm our economy, but this aid brought huge dividends. "

    Comrade Simson (of the Ministry of Defense) to Senator George in February 1941, when the Lend-Lease Act was being discussed, wrote “if you take into account that it took only 18 months to 2 years to develop the production of new aircraft engines, and from 16 to 18 months to develop the production of new aircraft, it is easy to understand that without the initial impetus that we received thanks to these foreign orders, we would now be in a very difficult situation in the face of the vital need to solve all these production problems. " 

    During the Anglo-American conference in Casablanca in January 1943, Roosevelt noted: "Deliveries to Russia is a profitable investment."
    Churchill spoke of the need to increase Russia's military assistance, for “no other form of capital investment can provide the best military dividends.

    And so - yes, they really facilitated the destruction of Nazism ... in the second half of the war.
    1. cdrt
      cdrt 29 December 2013 03: 31
      +1
      Quote: smile
      misterwulf
      Yes, they helped ... but not only did they help by no means disinterestedly, but also with considerable benefit for themselves.
      For those who will begin to accuse me of being bad, ingratitude and uryapatriotism, I strongly advise you to read first the book by Edward Stennius - The Riddles of Lend-Lease - Formula of Victory http://lib.rus.ec/b/184874/read I hope you don’t suspect that, chief Office for the observance of the Law on Lend-Lease in the fact that he sold out to the Bolsheviks and is our uryapatriot? :))) But he rests precisely on that. how profitable was Lend-Lease for the Americans.

      And yet, some quotes by American figures confirming my words:

      Harry Hopkins -
      "We Americans, however, are pragmatic people, and someone might ask:" 12,9 billion is a very high price. Is such a cost justified? "
      I think that we are even doubling back what we spent. Lend-lease did not harm our economy, but this aid brought huge dividends. "

      Comrade Simson (of the Ministry of Defense) to Senator George in February 1941, when the Lend-Lease Act was being discussed, wrote “if you take into account that it took only 18 months to 2 years to develop the production of new aircraft engines, and from 16 to 18 months to develop the production of new aircraft, it is easy to understand that without the initial impetus that we received thanks to these foreign orders, we would now be in a very difficult situation in the face of the vital need to solve all these production problems. " 

      During the Anglo-American conference in Casablanca in January 1943, Roosevelt noted: "Deliveries to Russia is a profitable investment."
      Churchill spoke of the need to increase Russia's military assistance, for “no other form of capital investment can provide the best military dividends.

      And so - yes, they really facilitated the destruction of Nazism ... in the second half of the war.


      Only the benefit was not financial, because anyone who knows anything about Lend-Lease understands that military supplies were free.
      But the benefits were about three:
      - due to the buildup of domestic debt, the United States increased its military production and increased its consumption through salaries, well, anyone who has studied the economy will at least somehow understand that this was a real way out of the crises of the 30s
      - created an army that until the end of 1944 fought for American interests (liberating its homeland the Red Army broke the Wehrmacht, which was one of the American interests)
      - created in the person of the USSR a mighty counterbalance to Great Britain. It was the existence of this counterbalance that eliminated even fantasies about the possibility of preserving the British Empire, and, accordingly, allowed the United States to take the place of Great Britain, and even in such a way that it itself imposed itself on its allies. Well ... it rallied the entire Western Europe against the USSR, which meant throwing itself into the arms of an alliance with the United States
      1. Genry
        Genry 2 January 2014 23: 49
        +1
        Quote: cdrt
        anyone who knows anything about Lend-Lease understands that military supplies were free

        Lend-lease, this is pure rental.
        Everything that was taken required a return. And the USSR for a long time returned the equipment. What was impossible to return was offset by money.
        Moreover, the return was carried out sometimes in an absurd manner. For example, ships, after much nit-picking, with a complete repair of malfunctions and painting, were right there, right before our eyes, drowned.
        But after that, some of the equipment (especially aviation) was simply not returned and they pretended to be forgotten. The states could not politically inflate the scandal here (it was unprofitable).
    2. stroporez
      stroporez 5 January 2014 09: 49
      0
      Quote: smile
      Yes, they helped ... but not only did they help by no means disinterestedly, but also with considerable benefit for themselves.
      ------- You can’t call it help in any way. This is an honestly bought product. Yes, and with .... overpayment
  • Boris55
    Boris55 28 December 2013 14: 24
    +19
    Quote: Setrac
    Although with grub they are real helped...

    Could the supply of the Ame'rs, for which we paid in gold, be considered a help?
    It is unlikely that we do not consider it a help to us that daily trading speculators push us for our money?
    After such "help" the USA became the richest country ... As they say there: "Nothing personal, just business" ...
    1. Tyumen
      Tyumen 28 December 2013 14: 44
      +14
      Right. This is not help, but simple trading.
      1. Boris55
        Boris55 28 December 2013 16: 12
        +5
        Quote: Tyumen
        Right. This is not help, but simple trading.

        It is very important to call a spade a spade so that there is no clouding of the mind and wrong, far-reaching conclusions are made.
    2. Amfitsion
      Amfitsion 28 December 2013 16: 37
      -10%
      What kind of gold? The USSR did not pay even a tenth of the amount of Lend-Lease. The numbers have long been official and famous
      1. Amfitsion
        Amfitsion 28 December 2013 18: 30
        -3
        What was required to prove, in fact. Cons, and not a single objection in essence, with numbers. 2014 is in the yard, but the number of illiterate fools, as if they had crawled out of the 50s yesterday and who had never read anything but the Pravda newspaper in their lives, are not getting smaller ...
        1. poquello
          poquello 28 December 2013 18: 58
          +4
          Quote: Amphitious
          What was required to prove, in fact. Cons, and not a single objection in essence, with numbers. 2014 is in the yard, but the number of illiterate fools, as if they had crawled out of the 50s yesterday and who had never read anything but the Pravda newspaper in their lives, are not getting smaller ...

          you are too lazy to see where and for what gold, is it better to inflate vaguely?
          1. Amfitsion
            Amfitsion 28 December 2013 19: 03
            +3
            No. But here the thesis rules: "The USSR paid for the Lend-Lease in gold." Lend-Lease amounted to more than 11 billion of the then dollars. This is over 10 tons of gold. So I want to know how many of the ten thousand tons of gold were paid to the United States?
            1. poquello
              poquello 28 December 2013 21: 33
              +5
              Quote: Amphitious
              No. But here the thesis rules: "The USSR paid for the Lend-Lease in gold." Lend-Lease amounted to more than 11 billion of the then dollars. This is over 10 tons of gold. So I want to know how many of the ten thousand tons of gold were paid to the United States?

              Well then you have to start from a distance. The "US Defense Assistance Act" was passed by the American Congress on March 8, 1941 for Britain and others. When was it signed with the USSR?
            2. The comment was deleted.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. Current 72
          Current 72 29 December 2013 01: 38
          +3
          And thirty-five tons of gold, payment of a damn land lease sunk in the Barents Sea, is that not our gold ???
          1. felix
            felix 29 December 2013 02: 29
            0
            And where is it now ???
            1. Kars
              Kars 29 December 2013 09: 55
              +4
              Quote: felix
              And where is it now ???

              the British raised after the war


              I’m looking at Amfitsion-they’ve banned and komenti rubbed. It’s a pity. The opinion different from the party’s policy is not welcome. And the man said interesting and sometimes unknown things. How would such a development approach?
              1. felix
                felix 29 December 2013 10: 51
                0
                Daze tak, dymal eto baika. Thanks.
                1. vlad.svargin
                  vlad.svargin 29 December 2013 16: 43
                  0
                  felix
                  Daze tak, dymal eto baika. Thanks.


                  For you, the victory of the USSR is also "tales"
              2. poquello
                poquello 29 December 2013 12: 52
                +1
                Quote: Kars

                I’m looking at Amfitsion-they’ve banned and komenti rubbed. It’s a pity. The opinion different from the party’s policy is not welcome. And the man said interesting and sometimes unknown things. How would such a development approach?

                Well, yes, I agree, the truth she is born in a dispute, and all komenty bunch is not good.
                1. Setrac
                  Setrac 29 December 2013 22: 05
                  +4
                  Quote: poquello
                  Well, yes, I agree, truth is born in a dispute

                  What kind of nonsense? Truth in a dispute is not born, it exists regardless of our opinion and knowledge of HER (truth).
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 29 December 2013 22: 26
                    +1
                    Quote: Setrac
                    from our opinion and knowledge of HER (truth).

                    Do you pretend to be Omniscient?
                    Quote: Setrac
                    delirium
                    1. Setrac
                      Setrac 29 December 2013 23: 25
                      0
                      Quote: Kars
                      Do you pretend to be Omniscient?

                      "Is that private soldier who does not dream of becoming a general bad?"
                    2. Kars
                      Kars 29 December 2013 23: 31
                      +1
                      Quote: Setrac
                      "Is that private soldier who does not dream of becoming a general bad?"

                      I can conclude from this that you’re not applying yet? Whereas how are you going to move to such a high rank without disputes (fights) without an opponent, without another point of view, how are you going to get new knowledge that can go against your point of view (after all, this may be?)
                      Alright, what am I talking about here)))
            2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Ezhaak
      Ezhaak 28 December 2013 19: 32
      +13
      Quote: Amphitious
      What kind of gold? USSR did not pay even a tenth

      I strongly recommend that you find and read books edited by A.A. Gromyko, published in 1977-1978. They are called "Correspondence of the Soviet government with the government ... during the Great Patriotic War 1941-1945"
      In the missing space is written USA - 2 volumes published, Great Britain - 2 volumes published, France - 2 volumes published. The last two volumes mainly deal with the Normandie-Niemen squadron. And here in the volumes associated with the United States, documents are specifically cited confirming the advance payment of supplies by the Soviet Union of at least 50% of the amount. The rest of the payment was made by deliveries to the United States of all kinds of raw materials.
      So you are lying, dear Noname. You are totally unfamiliar with the topic!
      1. Amfitsion
        Amfitsion 28 December 2013 19: 42
        0
        Tell the exact title of the book, year of publication, and page number. I will find, I'm not lazy.
        And it smacks of direct discovery and historical science. But for "lying" I will ask you:
        So, How much was the supply in general and how much did the USSR pay under Lend-Lease?
        Figures.
        1. Ezhaak
          Ezhaak 28 December 2013 20: 37
          +4
          Quote: Amphitious
          Tell the exact title of the book, year of publication, and page number. I will find, I'm not lazy.

          And what is written in my message, or are you unable to read?
        2. morpex
          morpex 29 December 2013 00: 51
          -8
          Quote: Amphitious
          Tell the exact title of the book, year of publication, and page number. I will find, I'm not lazy.
          And it smacks of direct discovery and historical science. But for "lying" I will ask you:
          So, How much was the supply in general and how much did the USSR pay under Lend-Lease?
          Figures.

          There is nothing easier Read: http: //www.hrono.ru/organ/ukaz_l/lend_liz.php
          See:

      2. Aaron Zawi
        Aaron Zawi 28 December 2013 20: 10
        0
        You claim that the USSR paid for Land lease? I emphasize Lend-Lease, not additional purchases.
        1. Ezhaak
          Ezhaak 28 December 2013 20: 40
          +4
          Quote: Aron Zaavi
          Do you claim that the USSR paid for Lend-Lease?

          I do not affirm, but Andrei Andreyevich Gromyko, presenting documents. I hope you, Aron, there is no need to explain who A.A. Gromyko is?
          1. Aaron Zawi
            Aaron Zawi 28 December 2013 21: 04
            -1
            Quote: Hedgehog
            Quote: Aron Zaavi
            Do you claim that the USSR paid for Lend-Lease?

            I do not affirm, but Andrei Andreyevich Gromyko, presenting documents. I hope you, Aron, there is no need to explain who A.A. Gromyko is?

            I know very well who A.A. Gromyko, therefore i don't believewhat it says about paying Lend-Lease during the war. Only additional orders or materials left intact at the end of the war and not returned to the United States could be paid.
            1. poquello
              poquello 28 December 2013 21: 24
              +4
              Quote: Aaron Zawi

              I know very well who A.A. Gromyko, therefore i don't believewhat it says about paying Lend-Lease during the war. Only additional orders or materials left intact at the end of the war and not returned to the United States could be paid.

              right, but lendlize meant deliveries to the usa for the american defense industry
            2. The comment was deleted.
            3. cdrt
              cdrt 29 December 2013 03: 44
              -2
              Quote: Aaron Zawi
              Quote: Hedgehog
              Quote: Aron Zaavi
              Do you claim that the USSR paid for Lend-Lease?

              I do not affirm, but Andrei Andreyevich Gromyko, presenting documents. I hope you, Aron, there is no need to explain who A.A. Gromyko is?

              I know very well who A.A. Gromyko, therefore i don't believewhat it says about paying Lend-Lease during the war. Only additional orders or materials left intact at the end of the war and not returned to the United States could be paid.


              Dear, proving that the land lease was paid, you destroy one of the local myths laughing
              For this, you again have cons laughing
              The brain formed by propaganda at the sight of reality rejects it. laughing
            4. Ezhaak
              Ezhaak 29 December 2013 11: 24
              +5
              Quote: Aron Zaavi
              I know very well who A.A. Gromyko, so I don’t believe

              Aron, but you know Gromyko only from Zionist propaganda and do not know him personally. Okay, you don’t believe Gromyko and you believe Zionists, but what about the documents in the books? Ah, yes, since they were brought by A.A. Gromyko, they are completely false, says Zionist propaganda. It's your right.
              But I agree and support the "Neturey Map"! And this is my right!
  • morpex
    morpex 28 December 2013 19: 08
    +5
    Quote: Boris55
    Could the supply of the Ame'rs, for which we paid in gold, be considered a help?

    Quote: Boris55
    Hardly,

    Here you are wrong. Firstly, this help gave us a respite in the evacuation of factories to the Urals with their subsequent launch. And how many beautiful planes did they give us? Secondly, they did not pay money right away. What can you do. Capitalism, its mother. It's just us, a generous Russian soul can help gratuitously. To lend billions and then forgive .. We do not get a simple folk wisdom: "Do you want to make an enemy? Give your friend a loan."
    1. i.xxx-1971
      i.xxx-1971 29 December 2013 01: 07
      +4
      They explained to you in Russian that the respite had occurred in 1943, and the evacuation of the factory to the East was in 1941
      1. morpex
        morpex 29 December 2013 22: 48
        0
        Quote: i.xxx-1971
        They explained to you in Russian that the respite had occurred in 1943, and the evacuation of the factory to the East was in 1941

        Yeah! In your opinion, the factories began to produce tanks and aircraft from the wheels. Do you even know that the Yusovites supplied us not only machinery but also machine tools and other factory equipment? And they still had to learn how to work. In 1943 m, the plants began to work at full power! That's why there was a respite. There would be no Lend-Lease, who knows how everything went.
        1. Kars
          Kars 29 December 2013 23: 33
          +1
          Quote: morpex
          but machine tools and other factory equipment?

          A rather interesting point with the insert of foreign machines was able to solve many problems with one of the Achilles problems of Soviet tanks - the reliability of the checkpoint
    2. i.xxx-1971
      i.xxx-1971 29 December 2013 01: 07
      0
      They explained to you in Russian that the respite had occurred in 1943, and the evacuation of the factory to the East was in 1941
  • felix
    felix 29 December 2013 02: 17
    -12%
    The United States became the richest country not because of land-lease, but thanks to its advanced economy and well-established mass production in the USSR and in the modern Russia, it never has been and never will be.
    1. cdrt
      cdrt 29 December 2013 03: 42
      +5
      Quote: felix
      The United States became the richest country not because of land-lease, but thanks to its advanced economy and well-established mass production in the USSR and in the modern Russia, it never has been and never will be.


      The funny thing is that you and those with whom you argue are right (although they came from their other premises).
      After all, everything happened right according to Keynes.
      The United States, for its money borrowed from its own people, launched a powerful military production, thereby ensuring full employment - the main goal of Keynesian policy. Moreover, surplus labor was removed from the labor market by conscription. As a result, due to the wages of those employed in the military industry, consumption jumped, which stimulated industries that were not related to the war.
      In this case, one could simply throw out weapons, and then they also found great use for them - to donate them to countries that, fighting for themselves, thereby contributed to the achievement of American goals.
  • stroporez
    stroporez 5 January 2014 09: 54
    0
    Quote: Boris55
    Could the supply of the Ame'rs, for which we paid in gold, be considered a help?
    It is unlikely that we do not consider it a help to us that daily trading speculators push us for our money?
    ++++++++++++++++++++ According to this "liberal" logic, it turns out that Chubais and K literally "bless" all of us, every day, by giving electricity, etc.
  • Tyumen
    Tyumen 28 December 2013 14: 39
    +7
    This is how the American stew was nicknamed "the second front" by those Russian soldiers,
    who did not see more real help.
    1. Ezhaak
      Ezhaak 29 December 2013 11: 38
      +2
      Quote: Tyumen
      American stew and nicknamed the "second front"

      Speaking of stew. No one mentions that her first lots were actually thrown away. Due to the discrepancy with the Soviet guests. GOSTs were sent to the USA and after checking several experimental batches, consent was given to sending these canned goods to the USSR. American companies producing stews at that time worked according to Soviet GOSTs.
  • catapractic
    catapractic 28 December 2013 17: 34
    +1
    and helped with aluminum
  • jjj
    jjj 28 December 2013 20: 17
    +3
    I read at Varlamov how American bread was brought to their camp. White, soft, lush. But they don’t get enough. The Russian black humpback turned out to be much more satisfying and more useful for maintaining the body in conditions of malnutrition and being in difficult conditions of a cold climate
    1. Tyumen
      Tyumen 28 December 2013 21: 03
      +5
      Not Varlamov, but Varlam Shalamov, you read it. Still that filon and yap.
  • RoTTor
    RoTTor 28 December 2013 22: 07
    +2
    They sold their products, developed their industry.
    In addition, Americans were shareholders in many German enterprises during the war. Because bombed residential areas more than the factories in which there was them.
    It’s logical: the Hitlers come and go, the business remains.
    But in the war with Japan, we traditionally underestimate the Americans.
    So we are almost even.
    1. cdrt
      cdrt 29 December 2013 03: 46
      0
      Quote: RoTTor
      They sold their products, developed their industry.
      In addition, Americans were shareholders in many German enterprises during the war. Because bombed residential areas more than the factories in which there was them.
      It’s logical: the Hitlers come and go, the business remains.
      But in the war with Japan, we traditionally underestimate the Americans.
      So we are almost even.


      Most of you are right, only the Americans bombed after all, basically factories.
      Mainly the Brits "became famous" by carpet bombing.
      Although ... Americans bombed factories of companies that had American shareholders last
  • The comment was deleted.
  • andrey777
    andrey777 28 December 2013 23: 12
    0
    Quote: misterwulf
    Although they really helped with food

    Our soldiers said that when they opened a can of stewed meat, there was fat instead of meat, and before the Germans attacked, they had to eat it from a nervous state.
    1. family tree
      family tree 28 December 2013 23: 22
      +6
      I remembered about American hard workers and lend-lease. The cannons of the Shermans, filled with "rifle fat", were very carefully released. Hard workers often put a bottle of whiskey there along with lubricant laughing
      1. stroporez
        stroporez 5 January 2014 10: 04
        0
        Quote: perepilka
        Workers often poked a bottle of viscar with grease there
        --People are everywhere ........
  • velikoros-xnumx
    velikoros-xnumx 29 December 2013 00: 05
    +4
    Quote: misterwulf
    Although they really helped with food

    Yes, and not only to us, but also to the Reich. And not only by "grub" but by supplying them with military materials through neutral countries. Don't forget this!
    1. cdrt
      cdrt 29 December 2013 03: 48
      +1
      Quote: velikoros-xnumx
      Quote: misterwulf
      Although they really helped with food

      Yes, and not only to us, but also to the Reich. And not only by "grub" but by supplying them with military materials through neutral countries. Don't forget this!


      And in the figures on the supply of military materials to the Germans, can you?
      1. velikoros-xnumx
        velikoros-xnumx 29 December 2013 10: 14
        +4
        During the Nuremberg Trials, the former President of the Imperial Bank, Hjalmar Schacht, said in an interview with an American lawyer: “If you want to indict industrialists who helped rearm Germany, you must indict yourself. You will be required to indict the Americans. The Opel automobile plant, for example, did not produce anything other than military products. Owned this factory, your General Motors. Almost until the end of the war, with special permission to trade with Germany, Italy, Japan, the American telecommunications company ITT conducted its business. Ford did not stop production in France after the German occupation by the Germans, while German Goering, who headed the Reichswerk German Goering industrial concern, personally provided special protection for Ford's activities in Europe. What can I say, even if the Coca-Cola company, far from military affairs, has launched production of the Fanta drink in Germany!

        The Standard Oil war did not prevent the conclusion through a British intermediary of a contract with the German chemical concern I.G. Farbenidustri for the production of aviation gasoline in Germany. During the Second World War, not a single Standard Oil tanker was sunk by German submarines.

        As you know, the Nuremberg Tribunal found Mine not guilty

        Now a little about American investment in German industry:

        "... If, through ITT, the Morgan house established control over many enterprises that produced telegraph and telephone equipment, as well as over the radio industry in Germany and extended tentacles to aircraft construction, then through another large American firm, General Electric, he had close ties with electrical industry in Germany.

        During the years of the fascist dictatorship, General Electric achieved complete control over the Allgemeine Elektricityts Gesellschaft (AEG), the largest German electrical engineering concern with a capital of 120 million marks. Through the AEG, General Electric acquired indirect control over a significant part of the electrical industry in Germany, including [186] over the well-known Siemens electrical company, the Osram light bulb company, and so on. "

        Unlike deliveries to the allies, the figures are less accurate - I think there is no need to explain why, and these figures appeared after the investigation by the government commission in the USA of the activities of their industrialists during the war. If you do not dispute the fact of the delivery of materials to the Third Reich and concrete figures are interesting, poyuzayte and you will be happy. I will try to find time myself.
        1. xan
          xan 29 December 2013 20: 59
          0
          Quote: velikoros-xnumx
          If you don’t dispute the fact that the materials were delivered to the Third Reich and concrete figures are interesting, poyuzayte and you will be happy. I will try to find time myself.

          respectable cdrt post Great Russia read 50 times
  • air wolf
    air wolf 29 December 2013 10: 32
    +1
    Well, right, they helped Hitler first, then we, all right, kill each other, and we will come and take everything away. We still have not restored the population, China can now reach the Urals in a week. If it weren’t for the nuclear potential of the Russian Federation and air defense, which are falling into decay, we would have been let into the stew long ago ...
  • EtickayaSila
    EtickayaSila 3 January 2014 12: 52
    0
    Have you helped? They exchanged their stew for the blood of our soldiers and at a very "good rate". America acted exclusively in its own interests, and if it became profitable for it to support the Nazis, they would not hesitate to do so.
  • Trapperxnumx
    Trapperxnumx 28 December 2013 09: 08
    +12
    Briefly. Clear. In essence. Thank.
    1. xan
      xan 28 December 2013 12: 53
      +12
      If the Americans scream to the whole world that without their supplies the USSR would not have won the war, then why did the British not make a decisive contribution to the victory, although they were helped much more than the USSR?
      1. cdrt
        cdrt 29 December 2013 03: 50
        0
        Quote: xan
        If the Americans scream to the whole world that without their supplies the USSR would not have won the war, then why did the British not make a decisive contribution to the victory, although they were helped much more than the USSR?


        Well ... the victory in the Battle of the Atlantic was British. Yes, and the whole of North Germany was still occupied by the Britons. Do not forget that Britons traditionally fight at sea, and the WB population was 4 times less than the USSR
        1. Setrac
          Setrac 29 December 2013 22: 12
          +1
          Quote: cdrt
          Well, the WB population was 4 times less than the USSR

          The population of the Moscow region is 4 times less than the population of Great Britain, and the population of the USSR is four times less than the population of the British Empire.
  • drop
    drop 28 December 2013 09: 22
    +21
    Dear readers of "VO", everything must be fair and truthful. Yes, there are already publications in the media that belittle the role of the USSR in the defeat of fascism. I even read such words that the actions of the Red Army, and not the victories of the USSR, brought Hitler to suicide. Historians of our country are obliged to provide for schools, and directors for television, materials about the victory of our people in this damned war, which claimed millions of lives of our citizens, who made us orphans (my father died on January 27, 1941 on the Leningrad front). But at the same time, few people know that two British aircraft carriers have defended the North of our country since July 1941. There are many examples of such hostilities. The people of Russia should know them. I have the honor.
    1. Tyumen
      Tyumen 28 December 2013 21: 19
      +2
      Yes, a poor Austrian artist brought to suicide by Stalin. :-)
    2. Ptah
      Ptah 28 December 2013 23: 09
      +2
      Quote: Drop
      that Hitler was brought to suicide by the actions of the Red Army, and not the victory of the USSR

      Hitler was driven to suicide by bills from the German gas company Ruhrgas. Every Jew will confirm this to you. laughing
      Gee-gee-gee .... Flap ......
      But seriously, then
      Quote: Drop
      The historians of our country are obliged to give for school, and the directors for television, materials about the victory of our people in this damned war that claimed the lives of millions of our citizens

      Not subject to discussion, because it is absolutely true! yes
    3. Prorox
      Prorox 29 December 2013 00: 56
      +6
      Quote: Drop
      drop

      The logic of the discussion itself is interesting, the so-called help of the Allies, in the event of a loss of cause and effect.

      The Anglo-Saxons (and the French should not be forgotten, although they should take Hitler to power from a prostitute), they gave money for the development of the military-industrial complex, silence during the creation of the army and the Treaty of Versailles were not a hindrance (although the reparations were taken properly), they did not notice the anschluss of Austria, they themselves tore apart and persuaded Czechoslovakia to swallow, they handed over to the treaties (although not, they declared a strange war on Germany) Poland.
      Conclusion: We raised a monster and grafted to our borders, for our destruction (Mein Kampf everything is painted there) and only after a land-lease, and the aircraft carriers mentioned. Maybe it will be more true, do not you think.
      1. cdrt
        cdrt 29 December 2013 03: 58
        0
        Quote: Prorox
        Quote: Drop
        drop

        The logic of the discussion itself is interesting, the so-called help of the Allies, in the event of a loss of cause and effect.

        The Anglo-Saxons (and the French should not be forgotten, although they should take Hitler to power from a prostitute), they gave money for the development of the military-industrial complex, silence during the creation of the army and the Treaty of Versailles were not a hindrance (although the reparations were taken properly), they did not notice the anschluss of Austria, they themselves tore apart and persuaded Czechoslovakia to swallow, they handed over to the treaties (although not, they declared a strange war on Germany) Poland.
        Conclusion: We raised a monster and grafted to our borders, for our destruction (Mein Kampf everything is painted there) and only after a land-lease, and the aircraft carriers mentioned. Maybe it will be more true, do not you think.


        Well, the Anglo-Saxons on the other hand participated in the imposition of Bolshevism in Russia. laughing
        Yes, and the USSR was armed with technology, equipment for the military industry has been supplied since the 1920s laughing
        1. Prorox
          Prorox 29 December 2013 18: 05
          +1
          Quote: cdrt
          Well, the Anglo-Saxons on the other hand participated in the imposition of Bolshevism in Russia.
          Yes, and the USSR was armed with technology, equipment for the military industry has been supplied since the 1920s


          Let's be more precise with terms, the Anglo-Saxons organized the February revolution led by Kerensky (the Bolsheviks were not even nearby), abdication, a provisional government, the dissolution of the army (creation of councils) and police ("Kerensky's chicks"). Lenin and Trotsky were needed for the final liquidation (overthrow of the provisional government) of the legitimate government (we must not forget the division of the "winners" in the First World War) in the country. Without sarcasm, a brilliant operation of British intelligence was a success, Germany is in bondage under the Treaty of Versailles, anarchy in Russia and is gaining momentum International(headed by Trotsky). Here is the main idea of ​​the Anglo-Saxons, a kind of horror story (not without success in Iran and not unknown British Petroleum dividends) for the whole world, about the evil Russian aggressors, and the "defenders" are understandably "civilized" Western countries. The Anglo-Saxons did not abandon the idea of ​​an international (color is not important) and successfully implemented - "al-Qaeda", created, armed and fight (not forgetting to notify the whole world about "victories" over it) using in their own interests to eliminate countries, seize other people's resources and the restoration of colonization. Bolshevism (in a single country), opposite through Lenin and Stalin, led to the creation of the USSR as the most powerful state in our entire history.

          They supplied, armed, you can probably say so, though they took everything for gold, resources and works of art (several museums were opened in the United States), but where to get our resources for free (Lena golffields and other denominations) did not work, we look at the dates at us the first five-year plan of 1928, and they had in 1929. the great depression has begun. It can be assumed by the traders what to take from them if it were not for the fact of 1930-33. in settlements with the USSR (and five-year plans have already been launched) for machines, equipment, etc., only with bread and an embargo on the export of our goods and raw materials. It cost us dearly then and still hiccups.
        2. Setrac
          Setrac 29 December 2013 22: 15
          +1
          Quote: cdrt
          Yes, and the USSR was armed with technology, equipment for the military industry has been supplied since the 1920s

          The USSR bought equipment, unlike Germany, in which resources were invested.
          1. stroporez
            stroporez 5 January 2014 10: 27
            0
            Quote: Setrac
            USSR bought equipment
            in the military under the OGPU, a whole department was organized to search for treasures shob pennies to find for payment to Western "virtues" .......
      2. drop
        drop 29 December 2013 08: 09
        0
        Konstantin, I completely agree with you.
      3. drop
        drop 29 December 2013 08: 09
        0
        Konstantin, I completely agree with you.
  • Denis
    Denis 28 December 2013 09: 51
    +6
    In Asia-Pacific, the Americans fought together with the Australians and the British colonial troops in India
    It happened quite competently
    All known cases of the sinking of Soviet ships in 1941-1945. in the Pacific Ocean and its seas (six proven cases in total), previously attributed to Japanese submarines, are the result of the actions of US submarine crews!

    And far from always these cases can be attributed to the fact that the American crews made a mistake in identifying the ships. For some of these vessels previously belonged to the US merchant fleet, and during the war they were chartered by the Soviet Union for the delivery of goods under a lend-lease to Vladivostok. It is quite obvious that the United States expected to provoke a military conflict between the USSR and Japan by such incidents, logically believing that the drowning cases would most likely be attributed to the Japanese side by the Soviet Union.

    “In general, during the 1941-1945 period,” modern scholars of this problem write, “American submarines sank Soviet ships in the Pacific 6 - 5 cargo ships with total tonnage 28 684 brt and 1 fishing trawler. At the same time, 128 were on board at the time of the sinking of Soviet citizens, including 21 woman and 3 children. Although in the same period the Far Eastern State Shipping Company [DGMP] lost the “Perekop” and “Maykop” ships and [from the actions of Japanese] artillery “Krechet” from the actions of Japanese aviation 2, as a result of studies conducted in recent years, it became known that During the entire war in the Pacific Ocean, the command of the submarines of the Japanese fleet ... did not sink a single Soviet vessel. Soviet ships also, as a rule, were afraid of hostility before the start of the war with Japan in August 1945, trying to avoid reasons for its entry into the war against the USSR on the side of Germany. However, in 1942 there was still an exception to this rule when the Soviet Uelen steamer sank a Japanese submarine off the coast of Australia and Soviet sailors were awarded government awards for this "(K. Cherevko, A. Kirichenko. Soviet-Japanese War : Declassified archives. M., 2006. C.173).
    And so that in Normandy they landed to defeat and destroy the Nazis all heard
  • a.hamster55
    a.hamster55 28 December 2013 09: 54
    +6
    Yes, the Americans have something to be proud of in this matter - but without megalomania! The postulate of exclusivity comes out again.
    1. Renat
      Renat 28 December 2013 17: 21
      +8
      Mania of greatness cannot be taken away from them. It is what it is. Lend-lease certainly helped us. Even more. But otherwise, they clearly suffer from mania. And the second front was opened only to prevent the USSR from reaching the shores of the Atlantic Ocean, and to bite off a piece of the war because of some values, trophy, including technology, etc. Take von Braun for example.
      1. cdrt
        cdrt 29 December 2013 04: 10
        0
        Quote: Renat
        Mania of greatness cannot be taken away from them. It is what it is. Lend-lease certainly helped us. Even more. But otherwise, they clearly suffer from mania. And the second front was opened only to prevent the USSR from reaching the shores of the Atlantic Ocean, and to bite off a piece of the war because of some values, trophy, including technology, etc. Take von Braun for example.


        About megalomania - the truth.
        But they landed not in order not to give us something, but to take what they had planned to take for a long time.
        Well, nobody really knew about German technology before 44. The intelligence departments that hunted for German scientists and development Americans began to create in the summer of 1944, after the landing
  • Alexss
    Alexss 28 December 2013 10: 06
    -10%
    article from the series "if my grandmother had ....."
    a victory in the war was won by a coalition of countries in which there were both the USA and the USSR and dividing the percentage of each country’s contribution is stupid and pointless.
    thus, you only become like modern Amer’s propaganda
    1. assasyns
      assasyns 28 December 2013 10: 35
      +11
      It is not we who divide, the Americans write about their invaluable help without which the war would have lasted much longer. Article +
    2. smile
      smile 28 December 2013 14: 29
      +10
      Alexss
      You know, when a significant part of the population of our country already believes this very "amerovskoy propaganda", and is ready to prove it foaming at the mouth. that we filled up the Germans with meat. and without the Americans they would never have won, it would be strange to be silent, wouldn't you think?
      Our liberal propaganda, which was born in the same USA, does not shut up even for a second and massively systematically presses our citizens in all directions .... and if you do not oppose it, fastidiously shaking the dust off the sleeve cuff with your finger, but you can silence a lot until why - in the mud we’ll be thrown to the ears, rows of Ivanes who don’t remember kinship, will multiply and trample on the marsh, here, I must say bluntly - a direct connection ...
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 28 December 2013 16: 00
        +6
        Quote: smile
        You know, when a significant part of the population of our country already believes this very "amerovskoy propaganda", and is ready to prove it foaming at the mouth. that we filled the Germans with meat

        I always ask in such cases - where is the meat from? The population of the USSR was smaller than the population of the Third Reich with satellites.
        1. smile
          smile 28 December 2013 16: 17
          +9
          Setrac
          Of course, and even some forget that thanks to the hard work of skilled workers in France, Czechoslovakia, etc., including Sweden and Switzerland, n. The Germans could release a mass of soldiers at that time. how we didn’t have the ability to tear our skilled workforce from the machine, or replaced by teenagers and girls torn from the school desk, and this is again millions of soldiers .... And even the countries that were considered captured gave the Germans hundreds of thousands of volunteers - Hitler put his head down almost an order of magnitude larger (and in some countries by two orders of magnitude) of Czechs, Dutch, Danes, Norwegians, Luxembourgers, etc. ..... than fighting against him .... moreover, all this riffraff went against us .. ..even Poles in the German army we captured about 60 thousand - half as many as Italians, Czechs - twice as many as Italians - about 80 thousand .... and how many tens of thousands we buried them?
      2. recrut6666
        recrut6666 28 December 2013 18: 49
        -16%
        USA and England, 320 thousand each, people, the Soviet Union, according to modest estimates, 000 million !!! Isn't that meat, in modern youth slang ???
        1. Setrac
          Setrac 28 December 2013 19: 10
          +11
          Quote: recrut6666
          USA and England, 320 thousand each, people, the Soviet Union, according to modest estimates, 000 million !!! Isn't that meat, in modern youth slang ???

          27 million civilians! If the Russians were the same scum as the Germans, or for example the Romanians, then such nations would not exist now.
        2. stroporez
          stroporez 5 January 2014 10: 30
          +1
          Quote: recrut6666
          Isn't that meat, in modern youth slang ???
          ------- these are our grandfathers, and YOU, for this "slang" ---...............
      3. polly
        polly 29 December 2013 03: 58
        +5
        smile, the correct answer!
      4. cdrt
        cdrt 29 December 2013 04: 12
        -5
        Quote: smile
        Alexss
        You know, when a significant part of the population of our country already believes this very "amerovskoy propaganda", and is ready to prove it foaming at the mouth. that we filled up the Germans with meat. and without the Americans they would never have won, it would be strange to be silent, wouldn't you think?
        Our liberal propaganda, which was born in the same USA, does not shut up even for a second and massively systematically presses our citizens in all directions .... and if you do not oppose it, fastidiously shaking the dust off the sleeve cuff with your finger, but you can silence a lot until why - in the mud we’ll be thrown to the ears, rows of Ivanes who don’t remember kinship, will multiply and trample on the marsh, here, I must say bluntly - a direct connection ...


        You are lying, or rather publicly fighting with voices in your head.
        Most think generally believes that America fought along with Germany. laughing
        1. xan
          xan 29 December 2013 20: 28
          +5
          Quote: cdrt
          Most think generally believes that America fought along with Germany.

          Judging by yourself, marmot?
  • ed65b
    ed65b 28 December 2013 10: 34
    +14
    Well done by 5+. Briefly and sensibly.
    And this is about the last days of the Reich
    From Hitler’s latest interview with Swiss journalist Kurt Speidel:
    "During the years of this war, I was forced to reconsider my racial worldview. I'll tell you what, no one here in Europe knows Russia and never knew it. I do not idealize Russians at all, by no means, Russians still have too much Asian But the fact remains that the Russian nation turned out to be stronger and more enduring in this crazy war, and I would not be surprised if salvation for the white race comes from the East. It will be logical. "

    If true, then the fortitude and courage of the Soviet soldier even changed him.
    1. Bronis
      Bronis 28 December 2013 13: 39
      +5
      Quote: ed65b
      If true, then the fortitude and courage of the Soviet soldier even changed him.

      Unfortunately, there was no such interview. And it couldn't be. But the order for the troops "Stand to the last" of April 16, 1945 read: "Berlin remains German, Vienna will be German again, and Europe will never be Russian." There were many epithets to us (with appropriate content). Psychopaths don't change their points of view ...
      1. ed65b
        ed65b 28 December 2013 21: 37
        +3
        Unfortunately, they said correctly.
      2. xan
        xan 29 December 2013 20: 56
        0
        Quote: Bronis
        Unfortunately, there was no such interview.

        Here, readers should take a word?
        1. Bronis
          Bronis 30 December 2013 14: 20
          0
          Quote: xan
          Here, readers should take a word?

          But why believe it, if you can try to find information about Kurt Speidel, the journalist who allegedly took this interview ... happy searches ... wink
          This whole story appeared at the end of the 90's - the beginning of the 2000's. Another newspaper tried to come up with a sensation. Result - history walks on the Internet and there is no peace for her poor soul ... wassat
          Just think about whether it was before the interview for a few hours before the end of Hitler Hitler, which journalist would be able to visit besieged Berlin, and who would interview him in that situation ...
  • Same lech
    Same lech 28 December 2013 10: 38
    +9
    When an ordinary American looks at RESCUE OF RANDY RYAN, he is completely sure that the United States saved the world from Hitler.
    A well-made film perfectly brains the average statistical resident of any country - no need to think everything is beautifully and spectacularly presented.
    1. cdrt
      cdrt 29 December 2013 04: 15
      +2
      Quote: The same Lech
      When an ordinary American looks at RESCUE OF RANDY RYAN, he is completely sure that the United States saved the world from Hitler.
      A well-made film perfectly brains the average statistical resident of any country - no need to think everything is beautifully and spectacularly presented.


      And what is wrong with Salvation? The basis is two real stories and the actual order, according to which the only child (or the last survivor) was sent home to the states
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 29 December 2013 04: 28
        -1
        Well, you argued. We fought there and there. In my opinion, the strongest point
  • bairat
    bairat 28 December 2013 11: 00
    +3
    It will remain a fact that during the most difficult period of the war for our country - in the summer and autumn of 1941 - there were no supplies under Lend-Lease in the USSR.

    The summer of '42 was no less difficult: the Germans broke through to Stalingrad, and in the Caucasus the front collapsed horrificly. In the memoirs of veterans, this period is described very gloomily, divisions formed from the local population scattered at the first shots. Before the Baku oil, the Hans had only one leap forward, and 90% of oil production was concentrated there, such a loss would undoubtedly have turned into grave consequences. The Caucasus turned out to be cut off from the country, the supply went through Central Asia, ferries across the Caspian, in these conditions, the trans-Iranian channel for supplying assistance from the allies was very useful.
  • Stas57
    Stas57 28 December 2013 11: 10
    +5
    American myths about Victory
    1. "Arsenal of democracy"

    but what is the myth in this chapter?
    1. grandfather
      grandfather 28 December 2013 18: 11
      -1
      Stas57 in this article, everything is focused on propaganda, the percentages are written well, only: these percentages when sending, it would be more logical to read the percentages on arrival from the title of the article.
      and yet here one scoundrel wrote that the USSR did not pay with gold, facts to the studio, etc., I just got the opinion that this article is absolutely worthless.
      psychologists competently ride on the brain no more.
      Threat and the myth is in the American dream of world military victories yes
      1. cdrt
        cdrt 29 December 2013 04: 18
        -4
        Quote: bearded
        Stas57 in this article, everything is focused on propaganda, the percentages are written well, only: these percentages when sending, it would be more logical to read the percentages on arrival from the title of the article.
        and yet here one scoundrel wrote that the USSR did not pay with gold, facts to the studio, etc., I just got the opinion that this article is absolutely worthless.
        psychologists competently ride on the brain no more.
        Threat and the myth is in the American dream of world military victories yes


        For aggressive and illiterate people like you.
        Google and further search text "lend-lease law text".
        If literacy is enough to understand the text of the law, it will come right away, but not, look further for "lend-lease payment"
        God help
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. grandfather
          grandfather 30 December 2013 19: 59
          +1
          cdrt RU as competent as you do not need a head, instead of it you have Google.
          I have one grandfather died, the second from captivity at 45 came, you tell them how Lend-Lease did the whole war for them, it’s a good and literate young.
  • sataha666
    sataha666 28 December 2013 11: 28
    +14
    The fact that they helped is a fact, and thank you for that. But do not think that without their help we would have bent. And do not forget that at the same time they helped Hitler (at least their corporation) http://masterok.livejournal.com/954689.html (the first link I found, but in general I found material more complete, like even in VO)
    And you can remember that it was the Anglo-Saxons who unleashed this war.
    1. smile
      smile 28 December 2013 14: 34
      +4
      sataha666
      I support. And regarding the fact that the Americans provided significant assistance to Hitler not only during his formation, but also during the entire period of 2 MV, there is an interesting book by Hayem "Trade with the Enemy". The network is full. I especially recommend it to our liberals.
  • Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 28 December 2013 11: 46
    +13
    Exaggerating its role and belittling the role of the Soviet Union in the 2 World War II is the official policy of the United States, which is an integral part of the ideological war against Russia. In this matter, American propaganda, mired in a swamp of lies, surpassed itself. Many American schoolchildren, when asked who the United States fought in World War II, answered: with the Soviet Union. Therefore, training and education of the Russian young generation should be based on historical truth and science. Russian schoolchildren should know how their peers are deceived in America.
    1. CALL.
      CALL. 30 December 2013 05: 34
      0
      Before the war, the population of the USSR was not less than 193 million people, and the number of Germany and Austria attached to it was about 80 million, so it is concluded that we filled up the Germans with corpses. At the same time, it is modestly silent that in the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945. The USSR did not fight with 80 million Germans — it fought with almost the whole of Europe, the number of which (with the exception of England and Serbia, which did not surrender to the Germans) was more than 400 million. Moreover, by the summer of 1942. we lost territories on which 70 million people lived before the war, more than 800 million pounds of bread and more than 10 million tons of metal per year.
      In the late 20s and 30s, Germany did not have to strain its forces, as we, creating new industries, building factories and blast furnaces, opening hundreds of institutes. She occupied industrial countries and made them work for themselves. Only one fact: the weapons that Germany seized in the defeated countries were enough to form 200 divisions. No, this is not a mistake: 200 divisions. In our western districts there were 170 divisions. To provide them with weapons, the USSR took several five-year periods.
      1. CALL.
        CALL. 30 December 2013 05: 43
        +1
        Churchill, after the war, wrote, for example, about Czechoslovakia: “It is undeniable that due to the fall of Czechoslovakia we lost forces equal to about 35 divisions. In addition, Skoda factories, the second most important arsenal of Central Europe, fell into the hands of the enemy, and from August 1938 to September 1939 they produced almost as many products (military, of course. - N.E.) as all English factories at the same time. " Germany received in the Sudetenland powerful Czechoslovak defense enterprises, weapons and ammunition of the national army. Factories almost immediately began to increase production for the needs of the Wehrmacht. Czechoslovak tanks, which at that time were among the best in the world, played a decisive role in the capture of the Nazis in 1940 by Paris. It was from them that the strike group was formed, which broke the resistance of the French and British in a matter of weeks (in France, after its defeat, the Germans got up to 5000 tanks and armored personnel carriers, 3000 aircraft, 5000 steam locomotives). This arsenal, far from the only one in Europe, worked for the Nazi army until the end of 1944. Every fifth tank, delivered to the Wehrmacht troops in the first half of 1941, was made at Skoda factories. Czech enterprises, in German - and one must think, accurate! - data, constantly increasing military production. In 1944, for example, every month they shipped 300 rifles, 3 machine guns, 625 artillery shells, 100 self-propelled artillery shells for Germany. In addition, tanks, tank guns, Me-109 aircraft, aircraft engines, etc. In Poland, 264 large, 9 thousand medium and 76 thousand small enterprises worked for Germany. Denmark covered the needs of the German civilian population in oil by 10 percent, in meat - by 20, in fresh fish - by 90 percent. Danish industry carried out all German orders.
        France (41 million people), led by the collaborationist government of Laval, willingly collaborated with the Germans, were their main supplier. By the beginning of the war with the USSR, 1,6 million people were employed in the French “defense industry” working for the Wehrmacht. According to German data, until January 1944 they supplied Germany with about 4000 aircraft, about 10 thousand aircraft engines, 52 thousand trucks. The entire locomotive industry and 95 percent of the machine tool industry worked only for Germany.
        Belgium and Holland supplied the Germans with coal, cast iron, iron, manganese, zinc, etc. Most interestingly, all occupied countries, led by collaborators, did not require payment in cash. They were promised to pay after the victorious - for the Germans - completion of the war. All of them worked for Hitler for free. In addition, these countries also helped Germany by taking on the costs of maintaining the German occupation forces. France, for example, from the summer of 1940 allocated monthly 20 million German marks each month, and from the autumn of 1942 - 25 million each. These funds were sufficient not only to provide the German troops with everything necessary, but also to prepare and conduct a war against THE USSR. In total, European countries “presented” Germany with over 80 billion marks for these purposes.
  • kare
    kare 28 December 2013 11: 51
    +3
    If there is a myth, there’s only one. The fact that Americans are not rotten nits
    1. Viktor Shmagin
      Viktor Shmagin 28 December 2013 16: 07
      +2
      Why so
  • Bagatur
    Bagatur 28 December 2013 12: 09
    +14
    I can not imagine, the US army vs the Wehrmacht near Stalingrad, Kursk and not only there! Teuton crushed them, beat them ... just remember how we fled to Arden and UTB in 1945 !!!
    1. Aaron Zawi
      Aaron Zawi 28 December 2013 12: 26
      -14%
      Quote: bagatura
      I can not imagine, the US army vs the Wehrmacht near Stalingrad, Kursk and not only there! Teuton crushed them, beat them ... just remember how we fled to Arden and UTB in 1945 !!!

      You know, in the GSPO forum, in the subsection WWII history there is a very detailed analysis of this myth. With the involvement of German, Anglo-American and Soviet sources. The Americans did not run there. Moreover, the defense of Boston’s 101 by the US division would honor any sun.
      1. xan
        xan 28 December 2013 12: 57
        +7
        Quote: Aron Zaavi
        You know on the GSPO forum, in the subsection WWII history there is a very detailed analysis of this myth.

        Myths are not ours, myths are yours.
        Soviet sources, is it like Satanovsky with Radzikhovsky?
      2. Impich
        Impich 28 December 2013 13: 21
        -21%
        I support ... all we know is the nonsense of soviet agitprop .... no one there ran headlong ... and no one there we slept in January 45th .... a common myth for gullible suckers not familiar with history. ..
        1. 11111mail.ru
          11111mail.ru 28 December 2013 15: 00
          +8
          W. Churchill's request on January 6, 1945 to J.V. Stalin for help. "I consider the matter urgent ..." Is this also a soviet agitprop?
          Quote: Impich
          common myth for unsuspecting suckers not familiar with history

          And in you, by the way, how "familiar" with the history? Probably according to publications for "gullible l ... in" the period of the so-called. restructuring? Or maybe. Did you get a scientific degree in some foreign toilets?
          1. typhoon7
            typhoon7 28 December 2013 15: 57
            +7
            Americans opened a second front for fear that the Union would swallow up all of Europe. The Soviet Union milled 85 percent of German troops (the most selected divisions), and only 15 percent of the German troops accounted for all other allies combined. I can be mistaken, but in my opinion, with the beginning of the 80s, a mass company began in the west to appropriate other people's victories. The toad is choking. The Soviet Union really had to start offensive operations on the western front ahead of time, due to the fact that the Allies were in a difficult position.
          2. Aaron Zawi
            Aaron Zawi 28 December 2013 16: 03
            +2
            Why swear? There is also an official WWII story published in the USSR.
            The Wehrmacht offensive collapsed near the Belgian city of Celles on the morning of December 25, 1944, just 6 km from the Meuse River and the bridge in the city of Dinan... This was the "tip" of the Ardennes salient, that is, the westernmost point of the German offensive of the Ardennes. By December 25, 1944, as a strategic operation, the German offensive in the Ardennes ended in complete failure. They did not even complete tactical tasks - they could not capture the bridges over the Meuse River, and did not even reach the river itself.
            The 3rd American Army, having liberated the blockaded Bastogne, wedged into the southern flank of the German troops, thereby cutting off the German supply lines south of Bastogne. The German 5th Panzer Army was under threat of encirclement. For the Wehrmacht, only a "corridor" north of Bastogne, only 40 km wide, remained for retreat - it was crossfire from both sides of American 155-mm guns, which have a firing range of 20-24 km. American artillerymen used new rounds with radio fuses, which proved to be very effective in the Ardennes forests. On top of all this, American aircraft regularly raided the retreating German forces.
            January 1 1945 As a result of attacks by German aviation (the new Messerschmitt Me.262 jet fighters also participated in the raid), at least 260 aircraft were destroyed at Allied airfields, but the Luftwaffe also lost more than 300 aircraft from the actions of aviation and anti-aircraft crews of the Allies. On January 1, the Germans went on the offensive again - this time in Alsace in the Strasbourg region in order to divert the allied forces, but these were only distracting attacks of a local nature conducted by small forces - in the Ardennes, German troops were already retreating in full force. The Wehrmacht lost its strategic initiative irrevocably.
            By 15 January 1945 Units of the 1 and 3 American armies were combined north of Bastogne near the cities of Uffaliz and Noville, thereby eliminating more than half of the Ardennes ledge. The 12th Corps of the 3th Army made a breakthrough across the Sur River on 03.30 on the morning of the 18 number without artillery preparation and took the enemy by surprise. The 101 Airborne Division was transferred to the 6 Army Group. They were required to continue the attack on the Colmar Cauldron. 23 January 1-I army liberated the city of Saint-Vit. In the future, the offensive plan for the 12 Army Group envisaged the assault on the Siegfried Line.
            As you can see, the letter from January 6 of 1945 was written when the German group in the Ardennes was already defeated. Well, the fact that Churchill was interested in the offensive plans of the Red Army is natural for the leader of one of the Allied countries.
            1. Impich
              Impich 28 December 2013 16: 53
              0
              absolutely right ..
          3. Amfitsion
            Amfitsion 28 December 2013 16: 42
            +1
            A. When did the Germans go over to the defensive on the Western Front, after the "Watch on the Rhine" fell off?
            b. When did the allies switch from defense to offensive there?
            Q. When did the Red Army begin the offensive in the winter of the 45th?
            Without idle talk and cormorants. Just the dates, please.
            1. Aaron Zawi
              Aaron Zawi 28 December 2013 16: 58
              0
              The offensive of the Red Army (V / O) began on January 12 on the Eastern Front, and as follows from the passage I cited above, the Anglo-American troops by January 15 almost finished the rout of the German group advancing in the Ardennes.
        2. grandfather
          grandfather 28 December 2013 18: 30
          +2
          Impich BY Do you happen to be an eyewitness of those events? policeman, mother, milk, testicle not?
          history must be read from various sources, and think with your own head.
        3. Viktor Shmagin
          Viktor Shmagin 28 December 2013 22: 44
          +5
          And you believe American propaganda, Saving Private Ryan, that's all. And why did they ask I.V. Stalin urgently to launch an offensive at the front, it’s just that. And the Germans in 1944 were no longer the same. For real warriors with fire in their eyes, with an unshakable faith in the Fuhrer, the horns were broken off in 1941 and 42, and if they were in the Ardennes, then there would be those vaunted American divisions, like their predecessors, the Angles, in the Dover Canal
      3. PSih2097
        PSih2097 28 December 2013 14: 00
        +10
        Quote: Aron Zaavi
        Moreover, the defense of Boston’s 101 by the US division would honor any sun.

        what then to say about the defense of the Brest Fortress?
        1. Aaron Zawi
          Aaron Zawi 28 December 2013 16: 08
          +6
          Quote: PSih2097
          Quote: Aron Zaavi
          Moreover, the defense of Boston’s 101 by the US division would honor any sun.

          what then to say about the defense of the Brest Fortress?

          That the defense of the Brest Fortress is the highest feat of the military spirit of the soldiers of the Red Army, who, in the conditions excluding organized resistance to superior enemy forces, continued focal resistance surrounded by 22 / 6 by 23 / 7, and single groups until the seridine of August 1941 of the year.
          1. typhoon7
            typhoon7 28 December 2013 16: 56
            +1
            You were there? These remnants surrounded mainly by small arms, the division of which was assisted by tanks and aircraft. Your grandfathers were grateful to the Army of the Liberator, and the new generation has so far learned only to be rude.
      4. PSih2097
        PSih2097 28 December 2013 14: 00
        +1
        Quote: Aron Zaavi
        Moreover, the defense of Boston’s 101 by the US division would honor any sun.

        what then to say about the defense of the Brest Fortress?
      5. 11111mail.ru
        11111mail.ru 28 December 2013 14: 45
        +7
        Quote: Aron Zaavi
        The Americans did not run there. Moreover, the defense of Boston 101 by the US division would have done honor to any armed forces.

        What could the Germans without fuel be able to do to them, your overseas friends? After all, they hoped to seize the allied fuel depots. It failed and the offensive ran out.
        Even the capture of fuel would not have saved the Germans if the weather over the Ardennes was "flying". For any of the "heroes" you mentioned, there were several times more than the advancing Germans.
      6. WWSW
        WWSW 28 December 2013 22: 29
        +4
        They could have defended themselves well, but we must remember that the Germans would have thrown off all their invasion of the ocean, if not for our premature advance on the eastern front. We started earlier - how many extra lives paid?
        1. Amfitsion
          Amfitsion 28 December 2013 23: 05
          0
          Landing in Normandy - June 6. Bagration - June 22. In Normandy - 1600 tanks and self-propelled guns German, in the entire GA Center in Belarus - less than 500 by the beginning of the offensive. The same garbage in the Ardennes, the Germans concentrated their efforts on the allies - our success in Poland and Prussia .. In no case do not belittle our role, of course. But even out of the blue to humiliate our allies in that war is a filth of pure water.
          1. cdrt
            cdrt 29 December 2013 04: 25
            +1
            Quote: Amphitious
            Landing in Normandy - June 6. Bagration - June 22. In Normandy - 1600 tanks and self-propelled guns German, in the entire GA Center in Belarus - less than 500 by the beginning of the offensive. The same garbage in the Ardennes, the Germans concentrated their efforts on the allies - our success in Poland and Prussia .. In no case do not belittle our role, of course. But even out of the blue to humiliate our allies in that war is a filth of pure water.


            About filthiness - you are one hundred percent right.
            For me, equivalent Pascuds, like the American one, which screams that the Russians played a small role, and the Russian, who sprayed her diarrhea out of the skull at any mention that we were not alone at war with Germany
        2. stroporez
          stroporez 5 January 2014 10: 40
          0
          Quote: WWER
          how many extra lives paid?
          --------- You cannot measure any land lease ........
    2. smile
      smile 28 December 2013 14: 37
      +1
      Bagatur
      Hi!

      I began to look at your article, at the same time looking here. There are a lot of edits, right, that sent me.
    3. vladstro
      vladstro 28 December 2013 16: 06
      +1
      totally agree
      1. alone
        alone 28 December 2013 23: 24
        +6
        Time absorbs everything, people begin to forget everything. Today, every third Japanese youth
        I am sure that the Soviets threw vigorous at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And if you think logically, the Americans could not write anything else. They should have hammered into the heads of their citizens that the very, most in the world played a decisive role in the victory over Nazism and if it were not for the United States there would be no victory. Do you think they should have written that Nazism defeated the USSR, which the Americans called the "evil empire"?

        We won. The people living in the USSR, who in a difficult moment of the country managed to rally, give all their strength and resources to the front and defeat the enemy on his own den.
        But it is worth noting that every country of the Anti-Hitler coalition has contributed to this cause, noble for humanity, as the defeat of Nazi Germany.
  • Leshka
    Leshka 28 December 2013 12: 25
    0
    impudent mugs absolutely ofigeli
  • Dart weyder
    Dart weyder 28 December 2013 12: 31
    +4
    yes, they helped us, and they helped the Germans, and the USSR paid the gold to them .... and moreover, a lot of gold ... they brewed everything themselves, and on this they themselves rose, as on the First World War - here they are after WWII and climbed to the top of the world, crowding out the British ...
  • Zabvo
    Zabvo 28 December 2013 12: 40
    +4
    So Putin has already explained everything to everyone that only Russia could win the war (there is this moment on YouTube). I don’t argue this way, but without the support that was, it would have been longer, and most importantly, it would have claimed more lives ...
    1. aleksandroff
      aleksandroff 28 December 2013 18: 33
      +1
      I do not think that would have claimed more lives. If the Americans did not help the Germans throughout the war and put Hitler at the head of Germany, then in all of Europe and we would have claimed less lives, and maybe there would have been no war.
  • stalkerwalker
    stalkerwalker 28 December 2013 12: 41
    +11
    There is no doubt that the Americans gave a "helping hand" in the most difficult moments of the Great Patriotic War, for which a special "thank you". But there were attempts to "play" with these supplies, or rather their "temporary" cessation, motivating them with various problems. W. Churchill played a decisive role in setting the "sticks in the wheels" - both with the "temporary cancellation" of supplies by convoys to the ports of Murmansk and Arkhangelsk in 1942, and with an obvious delay in the opening of the Second Front.
    I would like to note the fact of the recent appeal of the mayors of the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki to Barack Obama in order to visit the places of "military glory" of the USAF.
  • Free Island
    Free Island 28 December 2013 13: 03
    +7
    I disagree with the author a little. Firstly, at the expense of the landing in Normandy, which supposedly the dancing is considered to be a turning point ... on the Western Canals (Discovery, History, and so on) there have been materials for a long time that the battle of Stalingrad became a turning point in that war, and so more ... Western media have long been bawling about the fact that all the same the USSR played a decisive role in the victory over the then Germany, and HERE WE HAVE EVERYTHING THE VERSE IN RUSSIA! ALL MORE YOUNG JUMBERS AND THEIR MENTORS (TYPE KSYUSHA SOBCHAK, NAVALNY AND A RANGE OF JEWISH POLITICIANS) A STANDING OPINION IS BEGINNING THAT THE USSR IS LIKELY NOT AT ALL TO SEE HITLER HITLER because I, as a Russian, absolutely lay on what an ordinary two-hundred-kilogram American thinks, eating another Bush leg on TV, but what our future generation thinks worries me.
    1. smile
      smile 28 December 2013 14: 52
      +6
      Free Island
      Regarding the assessment of the situation with us, you are either mistaken, or your comment is 15 years late. The peak of such sentiments came at the end of perestroika and all the nineties. Now we have the pigs that flooded the media in the nineties, almost disappeared from the screens, Rezun's fans are already booed in any decent society, and do not listen to them, as in the nineties, and among young people it is becoming fashionable to be a patriot ... I myself am jarred by the term "fashionable" , but it is, and let it be better ...

      And you are also mistaken about the West - serious historians there never doubted that we made the greatest contribution to the destruction of Nazism, now there are no changes in this regard ... but the opinion of ordinary people, for example, in Poland, Great Britain, Scandinavia, even France (which is especially surprising in view of the fact that they don’t like Americans as a whole) for personal impressions - it is slipping precisely to the fact that we are to blame for the outbreak of the war and the Americans won it. He didn’t communicate with the Americans so tightly, but ... without exception, with whom he spoke, they are sure that they saved us ... like the whole Planet (well, the Batmans are the same) .. you see, they don’t even read their historians. ...
  • Impich
    Impich 28 December 2013 13: 25
    -33%
    here, half of the people are not looking adequately ... there were no deliveries of bastards which were not delivered by traitors .... there were deliveries anyway bastards .. either they didn’t deliver, they weren’t on time ..... for starters, think of them as red-bellied would have won the war if ALL the Lufwaffe of the Germans and all the Kriegsmarines had piled on us .. and all the divisions that were in Europe .... and do not forget that the red scoop began the call of 17-year-olds simultaneously with Germany ..... this is what you are talking about that says ???
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 28 December 2013 13: 52
      +9
      Quote: Impich
      here half of the people are not looking adequately ... there were no deliveries of bastards which were not delivered by traitors .... there were deliveries anyway bastards ..

      it must be understood that WWII organized the United States in order to move the leading colonial empires and the USSR from the position of leaders, so they are scum bastards. And Lend-Lease - does not atone for US crimes.
      1. cdrt
        cdrt 29 December 2013 04: 30
        0
        Quote: Setrac
        Quote: Impich
        here half of the people are not looking adequately ... there were no deliveries of bastards which were not delivered by traitors .... there were deliveries anyway bastards ..

        it must be understood that WWII organized the United States in order to move the leading colonial empires and the USSR from the position of leaders, so they are scum bastards. And Lend-Lease - does not atone for US crimes.



        So, my dear, the fact of the existence of the USA, the fact of the existence of a country that defeated the USSR in the Cold War, and, in principle, the existence of opinions different from yours, is already a punishable crime.
        1. Setrac
          Setrac 29 December 2013 22: 24
          0
          Quote: cdrt
          So, my dear, the fact of the existence of the USA is a crime for you

          Iraq, Yugoslavia, Libya, Syria. Hundreds of coups in other countries, organized by US intelligence agencies. Damaging global economy, built by the United States, which allows you to profit from other countries of the United States and its satellites. Yes, this state is a criminal.
          Quote: cdrt
          which defeated the USSR in the Cold War

          The Cold War is not over, it is premature to speak of victory, the United States lost the "battle for Moscow", the next world hegemon will die fighting with Russia.
    2. poquello
      poquello 28 December 2013 14: 17
      +5
      Quote: Impich
      here, half of the people are not looking adequately ... there were no deliveries of bastards which were not delivered by traitors .... there were deliveries anyway bastards .. either they didn’t deliver, they weren’t on time ..... for starters, think of them as red-bellied would have won the war if ALL the Lufwaffe of the Germans and all the Kriegsmarines had piled on us .. and all the divisions that were in Europe .... and do not forget that the red scoop began the call of 17-year-olds simultaneously with Germany ..... this is what you are talking about that says ???

      Your fabrications from the field of violent, not applied fantasies. And in this case, the likelihood that enemies would perish in the vastness of Siberia is very high. You can also fantasize about the non-participation of the USSR in that war, in which case England and the United States would be abandoned by the German FAA, and Germany would be the first to receive nuclear weapons.
    3. alex_valent
      alex_valent 28 December 2013 14: 27
      -1
      Well, I don’t know. I am collecting garbage in a scoop. ARE YOU FROM A SCOOP?
      1. Was mammoth
        Was mammoth 28 December 2013 21: 02
        +2
        Quote: alex_valent
        . ARE YOU FROM THE SCOOP?

        Shortcuts?
        Yes. And also "red-brown". You, I suppose, are from the Maidan?
    4. smile
      smile 28 December 2013 15: 08
      +7
      Impich
      Listen, are you sure that you yourself are adequate? ... we once talked with you about the fact that, because of your hatred with the Communists, based solely on Western propaganda cliches, sometimes you lose your common sense.
      You hate your eyes .... I would understand that if you based your attitude on anything else. except Western propaganda ... but you have nothing else ... in general ...
      Why this reasoning about the whole Wehrmacht, if due to the fact that Hitler bit the Anglo-Saxon hand that fed him, he received much more. what they gave him - crushed the whole of Europe under his ass. which gave him more soldiers and resources than he spent on confrontation with Britain in 41?

      Do you understand that in 41, Hitler threw all the most combat-ready against us, and also attracted millions of allies?
      In December or January, Halder wrote, having received summary reports of losses, about the following - yes, I must admit. that no matter how fast the replenishment was going on, such a Wehrmacht as on June 22, 41, Germany would never have any more ..... like an old wolf was looking into the water ... The Wehrmacht did not ... Absolutely.

      The tale of calling 17 year olds can not be let down even in the outhouse - d..mohah will be offended by you. In 41, 17 year-olds were NOT CALLED OUT from us; there were isolated cases. when in the confusion or after the persistent siege of the military commissariats, the most scandalous minor volunteers with a wild fight broke into the Army ... all ... you got your lies. Honestly, you don’t know elementalism, replacing knowledge with curses and hatred for those who saved the country and, as a result, the whole world.

      Our grandfathers at that time would simply put you on the wall as a traitor ... and without exception ... and they would have done the right thing.
      1. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 28 December 2013 15: 26
        +10
        Quote: smile
        In 41, 17 year olds were NOT called

        I confirm.
        My father was drafted into the ranks of the Red Army only upon reaching military age, and after the liberation of the Mozhaisk district of the Moscow region, where he lived. The middle brother of the father was also called only at 18.
      2. Setrac
        Setrac 28 December 2013 16: 03
        +4
        Quote: smile
        In 41, 17 year olds were NOT called

        At the same time, in Germany, at the end of the war, they drafted children and old people into the army, because the adults were over and we were told about 7 million losses from the Germans.
        1. smile
          smile 28 December 2013 16: 36
          +3
          Setrac
          Yeah ... according to various German data (I think everyone was convinced how German super-precise data is crafty) they put under arms from 21 million to 24 .... they ask where the rest went? :)))
          Once I read a memoir - something like "confession of an SS man or the last SS man" - I don't remember exactly.
          This bastard semi-French is Alsatian.
          He writes surprisingly honestly (by itself, lying in the right places, but surprisingly little by lying) ...
          Well, he describes the last days of his war, which he ended near Berlin - in two weeks his newly formed company of the SS (he was the commander) lost 95 percent of the personnel. But even after entering the battle, the company was not placed on allowance, was not taken into account anywhere, he did not know to whom the company was subordinate ... he regularly filled out loss reports, but did not know to whom to give, and then when he ran home to Alsace, gently hung a tablet with summaries of losses on a branch in a small forest, far and wide pitted by our tanks, in the hope ... ATTENTION! - that the forester will find and give where it should ... :)))
          When he was running away, he ran into our standing tanks, thought they would kill him, but our soldiers drove him out - get out of here, what are you going here, but you haven't taken Berlin yet .... :)))

          The Germans had such statistics and records of losses at the end of the war ... to say nothing, they still provide data on losses to the Polish company for 39 years, which are different by XNUMX times in different German sources ... they are so honest and meticulous guys ... :)))
          1. cdrt
            cdrt 29 December 2013 04: 34
            +1
            Quote: smile
            Setrac
            Yeah ... according to various German data (I think everyone was convinced how German super-precise data is crafty) they put under arms from 21 million to 24 .... they ask where the rest went? :)))
            Once I read a memoir - something like "confession of an SS man or the last SS man" - I don't remember exactly.
            This bastard semi-French is Alsatian.
            He writes surprisingly honestly (by itself, lying in the right places, but surprisingly little by lying) ...
            Well, he describes the last days of his war, which he ended near Berlin - in two weeks his newly formed company of the SS (he was the commander) lost 95 percent of the personnel. But even after entering the battle, the company was not placed on allowance, was not taken into account anywhere, he did not know to whom the company was subordinate ... he regularly filled out loss reports, but did not know to whom to give, and then when he ran home to Alsace, gently hung a tablet with summaries of losses on a branch in a small forest, far and wide pitted by our tanks, in the hope ... ATTENTION! - that the forester will find and give where it should ... :)))
            When he was running away, he ran into our standing tanks, thought they would kill him, but our soldiers drove him out - get out of here, what are you going here, but you haven't taken Berlin yet .... :)))

            The Germans had such statistics and records of losses at the end of the war ... to say nothing, they still provide data on losses to the Polish company for 39 years, which are different by XNUMX times in different German sources ... they are so honest and meticulous guys ... :)))


            That’s what you can get into - the Germans then, with a population (with Volksdeutsche) less than 90 million put under arms 24?
            Oh well...
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 29 December 2013 22: 36
              +1
              Quote: cdrt
              That’s what you can get into - the Germans then, with a population (with Volksdeutsche) less than 90 million put under arms 24?
              Oh well...

              You have such a thing in your head, brains are called, use them sometimes.
              You took the data from Wikipedia, and you simply entered the current population of Germany there, mistakenly deciding that then there was no more.
              In 1941, the population of the Third Reich was 115 million people. In addition to present-day Germany, its territories included such territories as Alsace, Lorraine, Moravia, Bohemia, Pomerania, Prussia, Austria. I draw your attention to the fact that these territories were inhabited either by Germans or by nations related to Deutsch.
              At the same time, by the end of 1941, the USSR, having lost its western, densely populated regions, had a population of 135 million people, some of which were non-Slavic underdeveloped peoples.
              thus, the USSR did not have a numerical advantage even over the Third Reich, not to mention the allies and satellites of the Nazis.
    5. 11111mail.ru
      11111mail.ru 28 December 2013 15: 12
      +4
      Quote: Impich
      you first think about how the Red-bellied would have won the war if ALL the Lufwaffe of the Germans and all the Kriegsmarine had piled on us ..

      Since 22.06.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX all combat-ready units of the "Luftwaffe" fought on the eastern front. All "Kriegsmarines" plowed the seas, because in the steppes of Ukraine and the Volga region there was no required amount of water resources for this fleet to be able to spin the screws there.
      By the way, the type of troops you mentioned "Lufwaffe" did not exist in nature, only in your fevered mind.
      Quote: Impich
      the call of the 17-year-olds at the same time as Germany ..... this tells you something

      The "Internet" tells me that your favorite began to put the "Hitler Youth" and "Volkssturm" into operation when the troops of the valiant Red Army (then the Soviet Army) had already entered the lair of the beast.
      1. Impich
        Impich 28 December 2013 17: 17
        -24%
        you are pseudo-patriots and wicked cheers-patriots you can brag about as much as you like that they say the Red Army would have defeated Germany without a second front, but it’s all bullshit ... think ... if in the 45th all German 30 tanks and 17 motorized plus all the Luftwaffe would be on the valley and the Danube ?? it’s clear that the beetle gunner would have stormed Berlin not even with 17-year-olds but with 15-year-olds .... I said that our people had begun to call at 17 precisely at the 45th, for by that time they were rowing everyone ... remember worse than the Reds there weren’t and will not be commanders ... if they were given great fighters this doesn’t mean that they immediately became monsters of thought .... the whole war it was a big altar of blood .. only for the first 2 years we drowned lives for defense in it of our Motherland and then 2 years threshed into it for victory .. by the way, as always dedicated to what - l for the holiday .. a present, so to speak, with a whiskered satan ... but what can I say .. dumber than the red-bellied bestial scum was not in the world .. I I say .. the apotheosis of the death of 2 !!!!!!!! tank armies in Berlin ... and no one will convince me after the Neva Piglet that we knew how to do something there .... and Berlin, by the way, is not the bloodiest bathhouse ... the most tin is the East Pomeranian operation .... this there really was a BLOOD BATH !!!! but like all the damned red bastards ...
        1. Setrac
          Setrac 28 December 2013 18: 30
          +6
          Quote: Impich
          dumber red-bellied bestial scum was not in the world

          yes, there are worse people, for example user Impich
          Quote: Impich
          if in the 45th all German 30 tank and 17 motorized plus all the Luftwaffe would be on the hangar and the Danube ??

          The Germans could not even detain the Red Army, and plus 30 divisions to stop was not enough. And if the USSR had transferred divisions from the Far East and Central Asia?
        2. smile
          smile 28 December 2013 19: 25
          +9
          Impich
          Tell me, why are you exactly what you want to make ours in accordance with all the postulates of Svinidze or the traitor rezun - "stupid bestial scum"? and do not dare to be offended - these are your words, since you allow yourself to speak, then you agree that they will be told to you too.
          When the Germans needed it, they rushed forward, ignoring the losses, filling all obstacles with corpses. For example, during the breakthrough of the Odessa group, the Germans in the infantry position, in the battle formations of which were the grandfathers of the artillery regiment, at the front about 600 meters made 18 attacks per day. The guns fired on the buckshot literally at point blank range, almost from a hundred meters. By evening, they went on the attack, clambering through the rubble of their corpses and broken equipment ... they just had to break through ... and they broke through ... filling up the opposing corpses ...

          Let me briefly talk about the assault on Koenigsberg.
          It was the most fortified city of the planet with a hundred thousandth group. It was blocked by 135 thousand 17 year olds (in your opinion), a little more than 35 thousand participated directly in the assault. The city was taken in three days. Losses suffered significantly fewer Germans. What kind of kids we have - walking trampled upon the most powerful fortress in the history of mankind and lost fewer Germans ... :)))

          I climbed all of our forts ... I don’t know at all how it was possible to take from without completely destroying.

          For example, the approximate chronology of the assault on one of the forts.
          First, shelling from artillery of great and special power. 93 direct hits on the fort roof and fortifications covering it .... breaking through - TWO, partial destruction of several casemates on the top floor. And that’s all. And all of these floors - 6, of which three underground, garrison battalion, dozens of machine guns, two or three artillery batteries.
          Further imitation of an attack on the front.
          decisive breakthrough of the main assault group through the positions adjacent to the fort and exit to its rear.
          In a 25 meter, 7 meter deep, half filled with water ditch barrels of gasoline fly and set on fire.
          under cover of fire and smoke, as well as taking advantage of the fact that dozens of German machine gunners recoiled from the embrasures - burning fuel spilled over the water and approached the fort-sappers' wall with a directed explosion partially blocked the moat in a narrow section and forced it.
          The back wall of the fort (there is now a patch) was blown up by an overhead charge and the assault group rushed inside.
          As a result of the blast, the fort's power plant and backup power sources failed. There was total darkness inside.
          Two hours later, a wild massacre in complete darkness, when they shot at point blank range and crushed each other with their bare hands, the assault group completely destroyed the garrison, a group of a couple of dozen Germans locked themselves in one of the casemates behind the armor and, refusing to surrender, was blown up by sappers.
          The size of the main assault group is a little less than a hundred people. Our losses are three times less ..... the fort was taken in a day ...
          So ... at leisure, look at what are the forts of Koenigsberg. for example, look at the Amber Museum, it is very well preserved ...
          These were the guys we had. such we had stupid commanders, that by storming a fortification with a ratio of 1 to 3 in favor of the enemy we lose three times less soldiers ... and don’t say - shame !!!
          Where are we to the Europeans, who in the year 40 had losses 17 times more than the Germans ... of course the Red Army and its stupid red-bellied generals fought worse than them, bringing the combat losses about one to one with the losses of the Germans and from the allies. dead in a fight with us ...
          Reading your comments, to be honest, I catch myself feeling like I'm picking a garbage heap ...
          You call your opponents pseudo-patriots ... and who do you think is a real patriot? Svinidze? Traitor Rezun? Novodvorskaya?
          1. Ruslan67
            Ruslan67 28 December 2013 19: 48
            +4
            Quote: smile
            ..and who do you think is a real patriot? Svinidze? Traitor Rezun? Novodvorskaya?

            Volodya hello drinks I go for the cons request And then somehow it became boring laughing Grachev! who was the only one to take responsibility for the execution of the idiotic order of the govnokommunyshego and none of his subordinates who refused to fulfill it did not give to the tribunal soldier
            1. Alex 241
              Alex 241 28 December 2013 19: 59
              +3
              Volodya, Ruslan hi, these are the memories of American veterans.
              1. Ruslan67
                Ruslan67 28 December 2013 20: 03
                +12
                Quote: Alex 241
                Volodya, Ruslan hello,

                Sasha drinks Of course I understand everything about now request But when they try to doused those American guys who volunteered to beat the Nazis, I personally feel unpleasant negative I hope you understand me soldier
                1. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 28 December 2013 20: 07
                  +1
                  Ruslan, that's exactly what I wanted to say, this video is a preface to the series "Brothers in Arms", if you are interested, I will throw off the link.
                  1. Ruslan67
                    Ruslan67 28 December 2013 20: 11
                    +4
                    Quote: Alex 241
                    this video is a preface to the series "Brothers in Arms

                    I saw him good Not everything as you understand corresponds request But I still really like two things: Castle Towers with Lancaster and the Naked and Dead Norman Mailer
                    1. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 28 December 2013 20: 14
                      +3
                      Quote: Ruslan67
                      The Naked and the Dead by Norman Mailer
                      And looked and read. good
                      1. Ruslan67
                        Ruslan67 28 December 2013 20: 17
                        +4
                        Quote: Alex 241
                        And looked and read

                        No doubt request
                      2. smile
                        smile 28 December 2013 21: 40
                        +4
                        Ruslan67
                        But I didn’t look or read ... and I didn’t even hear ... but now, thanks to a good tip, I’ll partially dispel the denseness ... :)))
                      3. Ruslan67
                        Ruslan67 28 December 2013 21: 47
                        +2
                        Quote: smile
                        But I didn’t look and read ... and

                        Almost envy winked You have everything ahead good And what is the music of Legrand in the Castle Towers good This is what a joy of discovery and knowledge ... Vova without fun hi
            2. smile
              smile 28 December 2013 21: 35
              +3
              Ruslan67
              Yes, normal people have nothing against those who fought to the death of the Japanese or Germans and have not.
              Many Americans, British and French themselves were indignant at the fact that their governments were not very decisive ... and their attitude towards us is evidenced by the inscriptions that their girls made on the equipment we transmitted and the fact that packages were laid there with unwise gifts. ..they did it themselves, no one forced them or campaigned ...
              damn it, in the USA in 43 or in 44 they released our feature film (forgot the name) about the war, about what Germans commit atrocities in the occupied territory ... Americans had to create recruitment centers at cinemas to receive volunteers - that was the rise that people after watching the movie were eager for the front ... to help us ... ordinary people were with us and helped as they could ...
              1. Ruslan67
                Ruslan67 28 December 2013 21: 41
                +5
                Quote: smile
                ... simple people were with us and helped as they could ...

                I already wrote about it sad Well, something must wake up in people fool And again, the great-grandchildren of those who landed in Normandy together with ours will go to save the world from the plague soldier
              2. Alex 241
                Alex 241 28 December 2013 21: 50
                +6
                Quote: smile
                enough evidence is inscribed
              3. Tersky
                Tersky 28 December 2013 22: 34
                +9
                Quote: smile
                Many Americans, British and French themselves were indignant that their governments were not very decisive ..

                They continue to be indignant - In May 2012, Russia decided to reward the veterans participating in the Northern convoys. Foreign sailors were to receive Ushakov's medals. The British Foreign Ministry was provided with information on the merits of 813 veterans to Russia. However, in October, Foreign Office officially banned its subjects from accepting these medals.
                The Office then stated that Her Majesty’s subjects can be awarded foreign orders and medals only if the activities for which they are awarded awards relate to the period of the last five years before being awarded
                This measure caused dissatisfaction among both British veterans and Russian diplomats, especially since veterans of the Northern Convoys who had citizenship of other countries (USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand) received these medals without problems. In principle, the problem was solved in December 2012: The British government agreed to institute its own Arctic Star medal for British veterans participating in the Northern Convoys. Each of the veterans awarded the "Arctic Star" wanted to transfer his award to Russia, and even had to draw lots. The choice fell on the English sailor James Pitts. Ordinary people are closer to God
                1. smile
                  smile 28 December 2013 22: 52
                  +3
                  Tersky
                  Great example and great comment. You are right, closer.
                  1. Impich
                    Impich 28 December 2013 23: 40
                    -5
                    My God read your komenty here ... My God ... you are all children here ... or just naive people .... I was already moved .... are there any adequate people here ... I really remember that Kars ... where is he ?? dear mother and I'm still trying to prove something for objectivity .. kindergarten .... here at least someone is trying to really look at the story ... or all the hat-takers and killers of those who have a different opinion ... the opinion of a true and sober historian ...
                  2. smile
                    smile 29 December 2013 00: 38
                    +4
                    Impich
                    Listen, in our last conversation I didn’t even kick you, you had such childhood thoughts and unreasonable pathological hatred of the Soviet regime ... you bribed me with your naivety and the way you sincerely believe in the most mossy rubbish ... but how many can you? Then I thought you were too young and naive ... now I'm starting to think that you are old enough, but infantile ... reveal the secret. if you can, how old are you?
                    By the way, I never killed those who have a different opinion :))) for some reason I do not want to sit in a tour ... :))))
                    And who do you call a historian ... yourself? Sorry, but can you name what position you occupy? If you are a historian, then I’m scared for Clio - she will obviously make a seppuku ... just a scroll of papyrus and do ...
                    But you, of course, are not a historian - a person who has received a systemic education cannot write such nonsense ... :)))

                    By the way, don't you think that if "we all" think differently, then you can be mistaken? :)))
                  3. Impich
                    Impich 29 December 2013 13: 16
                    0
                    Smiley answer. I am 35 years old. I live in western Belarus in the village of Dubok. And of course I'm not a professional historian. History is my hobby. Before, like you all here, I defended with foam at the mouth like you all about the Red Army. The strongest, most successful, powerful, etc., etc. But over time, around the age of 25, I began to suspect that not everything was clean. He began to read various literature. And I have seen. I realized that everything that the red ones rubbed at us was just rubbish and nonsense. And when I began to read everything in a row foreign, notice not our democratic guano written by the traitors of our Motherland, whom you call Svinidze and the like, but the memoirs of German generals and ordinary soldiers, then I really understood everything. I realized how shamelessly and filthy we were deceived all this time. Our whole military history is just a bunch of lies dumped on our heads that we blithely blithely. Only here I liked Gorbatov’s memoirs. One of the few worthy. And I’m not saying that our people are scum, I’m talking about the fact that the damned komunyatsky system made of us slaves and cattle who almost blew into Great Russia. All the trouble from them went, and this is certain. And the one who says nonsense at the expense of a strong system and the type of komunyaki saved Russia, then this is nonsense and a bastard. I will not say, unlike some here, that he is also an unwise person. I’ll just say this man in the dark. But as you know, the very darkness before dawn, and therefore I hope and believe that these people will still come to the truth. And this truth will undoubtedly be born in the process of our conversations and discussions of some points and nuances related to the history of the Second World War.
                  4. Kolovrat77
                    Kolovrat77 29 December 2013 13: 24
                    +1
                    Quote: Impich
                    And I have seen.

                    recalls the sermon of witnesses
                  5. Setrac
                    Setrac 29 December 2013 22: 41
                    +1
                    Quote: Impich
                    And when I started reading everything in a row, foreign, notice not our democratic guano written by the traitors of our country, whom you call Svinidze and the like, but the memoirs of German generals and ordinary soldiers, then I really understood everything.

                    How does it taste like German guano? You will become famous here as a connoisseur of this very guano. German generals had to honestly write in their memoirs that they are "crap" and therefore lost the war, instead they shit in some gullible mouths on the pages of their memoirs.
                  6. Impich
                    Impich 30 December 2013 00: 51
                    -2
                    German generals fought with the whole world and let the whole yushka go ... with a concrete one ... and our red-bellied senile bastard writes cautious memoirs about how they pounded Germans ... while losing millions ... and you believe in red-legged tales, which is clear what it is talking about ... so that the idiot wipe the snot and smarter .. although probably nothing will help you ...
            3. Corsair
              Corsair 29 December 2013 00: 48
              +2
              Quote: Impich
              My God read your komenty here ... My God ... you are all children here ... or just naive people .... I was already moved .... are there any adequate people here ... I really remember that Kars ... where is he ??

              Kars has not gone anywhere, from time to time, continuing to foul ...
              You are apparently from the same "cage", but with a lower rank.
              Kars at least as a "techie" is something of himself, and you, according to your rating, apparently cannot offer users IN anything constructive ...
            4. family tree
              family tree 29 December 2013 00: 58
              +2
              Quote: Corsair
              Kars has not gone anywhere, from time to time continuing to foul ...
              You are apparently from the same "cage", but with a lower rank.

              Kars, although an artilleryman, is special in tanks. At the expense of dirty tricks, I do not agree, argues very reasonably and constructively. If it were not for his spelling, I would have suggested that this is Tarasenko, but Kars is also a model artist, and Tarasenko does not.
            5. Ruslan67
              Ruslan67 29 December 2013 01: 02
              +3
              Quote: perepilka
              It’s dirty about me, I don’t agree,

              He just puts all the marshals after the first skirmish in the emergency wassat And then again the soul is wide open fellow
            6. smile
              smile 29 December 2013 01: 49
              +3
              Ruslan67
              Ha! I confirm! He spoke well with him, he even turned to me with requests for help when some tongue-tied got him ... but it was a long time ago ... until he began to speak out about our relations with Ukraine ... I managed to write him once in this spirit - ... well, how so, you are smart, why are you saying this, it’s a shame for you .... and hello .... Kars hid from me in the emergency ... I was even surprised ...: )))
              admit. I don’t understand such people ...
      2. KuzmichDP
        KuzmichDP 29 December 2013 01: 50
        +2
        Gentlemen, here it’s just that a comrade has an illness ..., urgently a brigade and a bed in Kashchenko! AHTUNG !!!))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) ))) stop
      3. Ruslan67
        Ruslan67 29 December 2013 01: 56
        +1
        Quote: KuzmichDP
        Gentlemen, it’s like a comrade’s disease ...

        Announce your friend’s list what Otherwise it may turn out uncomfortable
  • Ruslan67
    Ruslan67 28 December 2013 22: 58
    +5
    Quote: Tersky
    Ordinary people closer to God

    Such a trifle as the Normandy regiment -Neman, perhaps, is no longer worth remembering -The current ones will not understand request For them, present-day France is Holland and geybraks with Arabs. Mother of them all to the soul. am
    1. Alex 241
      Alex 241 28 December 2013 23: 00
      +5
      Quote: Ruslan67
      Such a trifle as the Normandy regiment -Neman, perhaps, is no longer worth remembering -The current ones will not understand
      Still as it is necessary to remember, as well as the Spanish pilots who fought!
    2. Ruslan67
      Ruslan67 28 December 2013 23: 06
      +6
      Quote: Alex 241
      Still how to remember

      Well, I have the book of Francois de Geoffrey still on the shelf so that we will not forget
    3. Alex 241
      Alex 241 28 December 2013 23: 10
      +5
      Francisco Merogno wiped himself up to the holes. And the film is magnificent: Normandy Neman. As a child I was allowed to stay awake if he was walking.
  • family tree
    family tree 28 December 2013 23: 13
    +5
    Since they remember, it’s our sin to forget our friends.
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 28 December 2013 23: 23
    +2
    ............................................................
  • family tree
    family tree 28 December 2013 23: 40
    +5
    And flew home on Yaks, for free, among others winked ! On September 20, 1945, the Normandie-Niemen regiment was reorganized into a two-squadron air defense regiment, 16 Yak-3s per squadron, and was included in the Paris air defense structure. They trusted, however, and were not afraid of the "communist infection" laughing
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 28 December 2013 23: 46
    +2
    ..........................................................
  • family tree
    family tree 29 December 2013 00: 10
    +2
    Here http://www.jooov.net/clip/2039975.html Mark Bernes
    Clip Normandy-Neman. In heaven we flew alone.
    Paste fails. request drinks
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 29 December 2013 00: 17
    +3
    Quote: perepilka
    Paste fails.
    Now we will fix this matter
  • studentmati
    studentmati 29 December 2013 00: 22
    +5
    good good good Well, those who have had a life should remember about them ....
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 29 December 2013 00: 28
    +5
    [center NATO Air Base in France. The name of Maurice de Seyne. Pilot of the Normandie-Niemen squadron. He has two shot down planes. But the monument stands for a different reason.
    As part of the "Normandy" de Seyne since January 1944. On July 15, 1944, the regiment was relocated closer to the front (they write differently, but apparently, these are Mikutyans of the Oshmyany region).
    The flights went like this: YAK is single, but behind the cockpit there is a small compartment in which a person can fit, but without a parachute. There the mechanic climbed. The mechanic of de Sejn was Sergeant Belozubov. Shortly after takeoff, the pilot owed to the ground that gas was entering the cockpit and he was returning. Blinded and choking on gasoline vapor, he made several unsuccessful attempts to land. After that, the command of the regiment ordered the pilot to leave the plane. But de Sain refused to fulfill it - the mechanic did not have a parachute. He could not save his life at the cost of the death of a comrade. Losing consciousness, not seeing the earth, at the prompts from the earth, Maurice began to land the plane once again. At 100 meters from the ground, the car began to prowl sharply to the sides. Then, banked and, lifting her nose, uncontrollable began to fall on her back and crashed into the ground ...[/ center] Monument to pilots Normandy Neman in Moscow.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • family tree
    family tree 29 December 2013 00: 27
    +2
    Quote: Alex 241
    Quote: perepilka
    Paste fails.
    Now we will fix this matter

    Well, again the sapper was covered from above laughing
    Spasibki!
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 29 December 2013 00: 37
    +2
    My traditional: Let's live!
  • family tree
    family tree 29 December 2013 00: 48
    +4
    Somewhere I had an alcohol here, (wife and daughter health workers) Only shhh. Everyone is sleeping.
    He got it, poured it. Pensioner is not enough, where did you go? Vodichki, exhale, alcohol and immediately water, exhale the remaining air, sleeve under the nose, inhale through the nose. The science, !
    WELL! We will be!
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 29 December 2013 00: 51
    +4
    By screws drinks I really have imperial moonshine laughing
  • Ruslan67
    Ruslan67 29 December 2013 00: 55
    +4
    Quote: Alex 241
    I really have imperial moonshine

    Viskarik eat Comrade Marshal? Oh well .. bully Amy here indulging in domestic cognac repeat drinks
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 29 December 2013 01: 00
    +2
    Brothers, have mercy, do not hit on the head. I ate the vodka at my wife’s birthday party, there’s only that laughing
  • Ruslan67
    Ruslan67 29 December 2013 01: 05
    +2
    Quote: Alex 241
    Brothers, have mercy, do not hit on the head

    On the head we will not, you not only eat into it, but still, God forbid, you begin to spoil bully good Do you have children? what And the rest is fornication and debauchery negative wassat
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 29 December 2013 01: 09
    +2
    Quote: Ruslan67
    Do you have children?

    Man, of course, there is, like your daughter laughing so I'm in constant combat readiness, with drina at hand, to drive grooms laughing
  • Ruslan67
    Ruslan67 29 December 2013 01: 12
    +2
    Quote: Alex 241
    , with drina at hand, grooms to drive

    I’m not only too late, but I myself brought request But the grandson is the fourth year good
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 29 December 2013 01: 14
    +2
    I still have to Ruslan good But grandchildren in my opinion is cool!
  • Ruslan67
    Ruslan67 29 December 2013 01: 18
    +2
    Quote: Alex 241
    grandchildren in my opinion it's cool!

    Cool good But noisy what laughing
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 29 December 2013 01: 20
    +2
    Bear with my grandfather, do you think it's better to wake up under some kind of techno house? laughing
  • Ruslan67
    Ruslan67 29 December 2013 01: 22
    +2
    Quote: Alex 241
    Is any techno house better? laughing

    I've been waking up for almost two years under the Bremen Town Musicians laughing
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 29 December 2013 01: 41
    +1
    Quote: Ruslan67
    Bremen Town Musicians

    Ruslan, yes, I still remember it laughing golden childhood
  • Ruslan67
    Ruslan67 29 December 2013 01: 59
    +1
    Quote: Alex 241
    I still remember it

    I also crying That's why I wake up under them laughing
  • studentmati
    studentmati 29 December 2013 00: 55
    +1
    Quote: Alex 241
    From screw I have the truth imperialist moonshine


    And today I am under the domestic development of Veniamin Pokhlebkin, though in Finnish! drinks
  • The comment was deleted.
  • family tree
    family tree 29 December 2013 01: 15
    +3
    Quote: Alex 241
    From the screw drinks, I really imperialistic moonshine laughing

    Well, you guys are a serious friend. The helicopter pilot said that the aircraft began, exactly where the order ended laughing Well and so, for a laugh
    laughing At the circus, no longer funny lol
  • Day 11
    Day 11 29 December 2013 01: 24
    +1
    Discussed friend --- bike! But funny
  • family tree
    family tree 29 December 2013 01: 36
    +2
    So it’s written, for a laughI generally love jokes. At work, seriousness is annoying.
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 29 December 2013 01: 37
    +2
    Spitting blood and wax through his teeth, Icarus said, closing his eyelids: Let there be troops in this form, a mess from now on forever laughing
  • family tree
    family tree 29 December 2013 05: 16
    +1
    Quote: Alex 241
    Let there be in this type of troops, a mess now and forever laughing

    In! For at such speeds, no instruction will replace the acquired reflexes and intuition.
    Look how I ran. Instinct, however.
  • Day 11
    Day 11 29 December 2013 13: 20
    0
    Victor covered the clock with shit.
    Alexander vypalyat cat.
    Peter Semenovich took off his underpants
    and put j_pu in the window.
    Oleg made a hole in his lip with a corkscrew.
    Vadim swallowed screws.
    Maxim on the iPhone screen
    scribbled "dickhead" with a key.
    Ivan pissed the tram on the go.
    Eugene did not wash for a week.
    Boris shouted "congressmen in pisda"
    and started smoking in bed.
    Dmitry scratched an egg with a screwdriver
    and scratched it to blood.
    Pavel put his face in the oven
    and burned eyelashes and eyebrows.
    Ruslan knocked out four windows with a stick.
    Alex broke the gate.
    Victor scored shit in a new way
    and in the hallway he made a pyramid.
    Mikhail organically puke in the bushes.
    Innocent made a tantrum.
    And you? Than for the "Magnitsky list" you
    adequately punished America?
  • Tersky
    Tersky 28 December 2013 23: 10
    +5
    Quote: Ruslan67
    Such a trifle as the Normandy regiment -Neman, perhaps, is no longer worth remembering -The current ones will not understand

    Does it even tell them something? It is unlikely .... 96 French pilots awarded Soviet military awards. Lieutenants Marcel Albert, Roland de la Poap, Jacques Andre and, posthumously, the commander of the third squadron of Cherbourg, Senior Lieutenant Marcel Lefebvre, was awarded the title Hero of the Soviet Union.
  • Ruslan67
    Ruslan67 28 December 2013 23: 14
    +4
    Quote: Tersky
    Does it even tell them something? Hardly..

    Well my daughter yes And I watched the film good
  • Tersky
    Tersky 28 December 2013 23: 32
    +4
    Quote: Ruslan67
    Well my daughter yes

    So again, whose merit is it not yours ...
  • Ruslan67
    Ruslan67 28 December 2013 23: 37
    +4
    Quote: Tersky
    aren't you ...

    I won’t ascribe only to myself - even her grandfather, who began collecting the file of Heroes of the Soviet Union from the beginning of the 60s. To my shame and regret, when moving in 2004, after his death, there was no physical opportunity to save it. I tried to attach it to the regional library But request crying
  • Tersky
    Tersky 28 December 2013 23: 54
    +4
    Quote: Ruslan67
    I tried to attach to the district library No

    Did you go to the library for a long time? Not No. ? Well, come in for fun, see what's on the shelves ... So that's another question, would the archive be preserved there ...
  • Ruslan67
    Ruslan67 29 December 2013 00: 28
    +2
    Quote: Tersky
    Did you go to the library for a long time?

    Long! and there is no special desire. You're right. It’s not known what’s worse.
  • smile
    smile 29 December 2013 00: 46
    +3
    Tersky
    I don’t agree, I’m personally friends with one of the largest libraries in the region and when they order new arrivals, they give me the catalog to be torn apart - a historical topic for me ... and therefore for two years now only normal books have been purchased ... pigs, bunichis, corned beef are removed in storage, and Rezun flaunts surrounded by six books, exposing him .... :)))
    It’s unfortunate that I can only drop in once every couple of weeks ....
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 29 December 2013 00: 57
    +1
    Volodya, I suppose your answer, but nevertheless, there are a lot of books on the net, although I myself like to read books more.
  • smile
    smile 29 December 2013 01: 30
    +1
    Alex 241
    Nope, do not assume :)))
    About 10 years ago, as a result of bloody battles with fans of the numbers, I suffered a final defeat and switched to digital bookstores ... they are more convenient and easier to look for them ... unimaginably easier ... and as for access to documents - there’s nothing to say .... the only thing that upsets a little is that some authors, what arrogance! :))), they want money for their books ... :))) in this case, I repent, I am a great violator of the law and copyright author right .... :)))
    The nut of knowledge is hard, but still ... we are not used to retreating .... :)))
    But, I confess, I'm amazed. how you can quickly upload pictures. videos, etc. in the subject ... for me it is akin to witchcraft ... :)))
  • studentmati
    studentmati 29 December 2013 01: 00
    +2
    Quote: Tersky
    the archive would be saved there ...


    The archives are kept by "devotees", and its location does not matter!
  • The comment was deleted.
  • smile
    smile 28 December 2013 21: 23
    +1
    alex 241 SU
    Hi!
    You, as always posted something interesting. Thank. I haven’t watched this movie, now I’ll definitely watch it.

    But interesting data about the Korean tank, accompanied by comments in Korean - I will not forgive! :))) Such an interesting video ... with such uninteresting sounds .... :)))
    1. Ruslan67
      Ruslan67 28 December 2013 21: 25
      +3
      Quote: smile
      I haven’t watched this movie, now I’ll definitely watch it.

      Study! Study! and learn! that would not have to apply the Ipatiev method laughing
      1. smile
        smile 28 December 2013 22: 05
        +2
        Ruslan67
        Damn, you’ll be with all of you here and you will feel like a complete jerk ... :))) I didn’t watch interesting films. I haven’t read important books .... I forgot Tongu ... :)))
        ... who is the "Ipatiev method"? :)))
        Should I put it up against the wall in the basement? :))) Or is it from the unkind word "ipat"? :)))
        Guys, it's scary to contact you ... :)))
        1. Ruslan67
          Ruslan67 28 December 2013 22: 10
          +4
          Quote: smile
          Or is it from the unkind word "ipat"? :)

          From his darling wassat
          Quote: smile
          Put in the basement to the wall,

          It is possible in the basement what But it’s better in the Lenin room and full political enlightenment without contraceptives bully
          1. Tersky
            Tersky 28 December 2013 22: 46
            +4
            Quote: Ruslan67
            But it’s better in the Lenin room and full political enlightenment without contraceptives

            laughing ! Not worth it; there are too many witnesses:
            PolitburoPolitburo
            Note: The word "worth" should be stressed correctly! laughing !
          2. Ruslan67
            Ruslan67 28 December 2013 22: 54
            +4
            Quote: Tersky
            there are too many witnesses:

            Well, at least not advisers! laughing And judging by the end with the prefix -anti
          3. Alex 241
            Alex 241 28 December 2013 22: 56
            +2
            Quote: Ruslan67
            And judging by the end with
            Ruslan from this place is more detailed laughing
          4. Ruslan67
            Ruslan67 28 December 2013 23: 01
            +3
            Quote: Alex 241
            n from this place in more detail

            Remind me what they were called in the end? laughing In short, they can be clearly seen from there. wassat
          5. Tersky
            Tersky 28 December 2013 23: 26
            +3
            Quote: Ruslan67
            Remind them under end called?

            Well, they called laughing, only without preposition under, and in the plural wink!
          6. Ruslan67
            Ruslan67 28 December 2013 23: 29
            +3
            Quote: Tersky
            Well, they called

            But most were honored and respected people request
  • studentmati
    studentmati 28 December 2013 23: 06
    +2
    Quote: Tersky
    Quote: Ruslan67
    But it’s better in the Lenin room and full political enlightenment without contraceptives

    laughing ! Not worth it; there are too many witnesses:
    PolitburoPolitburo
    Note: The word "worth" should be stressed correctly! laughing !


    Chic collection of Heroes! It is Heroes. Their heroism was that they actually created an Empire of absolute power! And at the same time their misfortune, imagining themselves invincible, self-destructed as a structure. About the consequences separately ...
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 28 December 2013 23: 08
    +2
    Hi Sash drinks a hundred years have not seen
  • studentmati
    studentmati 28 December 2013 23: 10
    +2
    Quote: Alex 241
    Hi Sash a hundred years have not seen

    Hi Sasha !!!! drinks One hundred years, one hundred winters! Holiday greetings!!! drinks
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 28 December 2013 23: 13
    +2
    Happy Coming Buddy !!!!!!!!!! drinks
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Tersky
    Tersky 28 December 2013 23: 44
    +3
    Quote: Alex 241
    Hi Sash a hundred years have not seen

    belay What are you old .. recourse. It turns out you are already well over a hundred ... request. Where are you and Ruslan to you ... laughing !
  • studentmati
    studentmati 28 December 2013 23: 47
    +2
    Quote: Tersky
    What are you old ... It turns out you are already well over a hundred .... Where are we with Ruslan to you ...!


    Don’t make Victor laugh ... laughing laughing laughing
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Ruslan67
    Ruslan67 28 December 2013 23: 49
    +3
    Quote: Tersky
    Where are we with Ruslan to you.

    Well in our 99 we still hoo drinks laughing
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 28 December 2013 23: 55
    +4
    .................................................
  • studentmati
    studentmati 29 December 2013 00: 01
    +3
    No doubt, break through !!!!!!
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 29 December 2013 00: 10
    +5
    Only forward!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • studentmati
    studentmati 29 December 2013 00: 13
    +1
    There can be no other way !!!!!
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  • Tersky
    Tersky 29 December 2013 00: 01
    +4
    Quote: Ruslan67
    Well in our 99 we still hoo
    laughing I don’t doubt how much - we’ll give some one hundred years ahead a hundred years ahead drinks laughing
  • Ruslan67
    Ruslan67 29 December 2013 00: 07
    +2
    Quote: Tersky
    let’s give a hundred years ahead

    And already three hundred years .. wassat drinks
  • studentmati
    studentmati 29 December 2013 00: 10
    +2
    Quote: Ruslan67
    And already three hundred years ..


    Why so? Duncan MacLad is already 423 years old! That's who should be an example! drinks
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  • Ruslan67
    Ruslan67 28 December 2013 23: 09
    +5
    Quote: studentmati
    that imagining themselves invincible self-destructed as a structure.

    They just didn’t prepare for themselves a shift, not a replacement! And that was the main mistake
  • studentmati
    studentmati 28 December 2013 23: 14
    +3
    Quote: Ruslan67
    They just didn’t prepare for themselves a shift, not a replacement! And that was the main mistake


    Hi Ruslan! Each leader is primarily obliged to prepare the receiver. And in the case of the Politburo there was a "total eclipse" ... The result? We have what we have.
  • Ruslan67
    Ruslan67 28 December 2013 23: 19
    +4
    Quote: studentmati
    Each leader, first of all, is obliged to prepare a receiver.

    Hi hi Is this a mandate from the current voter? laughing
  • studentmati
    studentmati 28 December 2013 23: 22
    +1
    Quote: Ruslan67
    Hi. Is it a mandate from the current voter?


    Digging deep! good Thank! I am sure that you understand me !!! drinks
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  • Tersky
    Tersky 28 December 2013 23: 39
    +2
    Quote: studentmati
    Chic collection of Heroes!

    All are equal as to selection, with them Uncle Cherno(eyebrow)pestilence. wink
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  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 28 December 2013 22: 10
    +2
    Volod Ipatievsky method in a nutshell: this is the impact, to achieve a certain result.
    1. Ruslan67
      Ruslan67 28 December 2013 22: 12
      +5
      Quote: Alex 241
      : this is an effect, to achieve a certain result.

      I would clarify - the degree of impact depends on what result is currently needed laughing
    2. Alex 241
      Alex 241 28 December 2013 22: 15
      +4
      Volodya turns pale, the sound of a falling body is heard laughing
    3. smile
      smile 28 December 2013 23: 06
      +1
      Alex 241
      :))) Volodya has come to his senses and is pulling in a weak voice - it’s better to learn uhhhhhh ... I don’t want to get married using the Ipatiev method ... in the Lenin room ... without contraceptives ....

      I immediately remembered the joke ... a bit obscene, I hope the moderators will not beat ... :)))

      Gogi comes home to dad and proudly declares: Dad, congratulate me, I became a man, I am today .... smiling.
      Dad, how are you? That - yes, in general, I liked it ... only the priest hurts .... :)))

      No, Learn. to study and study again ... :)))
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 28 December 2013 21: 30
    +1
    Quote: smile
    But interesting data about the Korean tank, accompanied by comments in Korean - I will not forgive! :))) Such an interesting video ... with such uninteresting sounds .... :)))
    Volodya about the "black panther"?
    1. smile
      smile 28 December 2013 22: 01
      +1
      Alex 241
      Yeah ... You see how vindictive I am ... :))) of course, you later corrected yourself and threw the info on a read-only word ... but the sediment remained ... :)))
      1. Ruslan67
        Ruslan67 28 December 2013 22: 06
        +2
        Quote: smile
        .but the sediment remained ... :)

        Did you find a spoon? what Well then, rake it sediment wassat
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 28 December 2013 22: 38
    +4
    Hello Vit. Brotherhood of the Northern convoys!
    1. Tersky
      Tersky 28 December 2013 23: 00
      +2
      Quote: Alex 241
      Brotherhood of the Northern Convoys!

      Sasha, thanks for the addition! drinks !
    2. family tree
      family tree 29 December 2013 06: 12
      +2
      Quote: Alex 241
      . Brotherhood of the Northern convoys!

      Macklin Alistair
      Odyssey of the cruiser Ulysses
      http://militera.lib.ru/prose/foreign/mclean4/index.htm
      I read, somewhere in the 80s, it was still published in the USSR.
  • smile
    smile 28 December 2013 21: 18
    +4
    Ruslan67
    Great!
    I agree, despite a reasonable clique and a lot of shortcomings, Grachev has something to respect.
    1. Ruslan67
      Ruslan67 28 December 2013 21: 23
      +3
      Now we’ll catch what’s wrong negative The Minister of the nuclear superpower must ride a tram, and it’s only OH who’s to blame for the fact that the battalion commander can’t clean the toilet without injury! and no matter how not the regiment commander coming out of a binge to check wassat
      1. smile
        smile 28 December 2013 22: 15
        +1
        Ruslan67
        In principle, you are right ... personally, I have the biggest complaints that he supported the elbon at 91, and how the troops were withdrawn - what wild excesses and theft he was accompanied by ... and where the troops were withdrawing ... but on the other hand, we then discovered the whole country, there is no reason to believe that the army could have avoided this with any Ministry of Defense ... if it weren’t for the elbon ...
        And as for Chechnya ... still, he had to prepare at least the command staff for the idea that he would have to fight ... many people in the troops thought that they would slide there, disperse the hooligans with hunting rifles and the whole war ...

        Okay, well, this topic is on the fig. I do not like to discuss it.
        1. Ruslan67
          Ruslan67 28 December 2013 22: 21
          +2
          Quote: smile
          Well, her in FIG this topic. I do not like to discuss it.

          I agree. But one clarification, at that time there were still a lot of commanders of the middle key! links with Afghan experience III ??
          1. Alex 241
            Alex 241 28 December 2013 22: 27
            +3
            Underestimation of the situation, the enemy, poor intelligence. The task was to establish constitutional order, and not to conduct hostilities. I think even the unit did not set specific tasks except nomination.
            1. Ruslan67
              Ruslan67 28 December 2013 23: 03
              +2
              Quote: Alex 241
              the unit did not set specific tasks, except for nomination.

              What are we talking about request There would be an order and actions would be different
            2. smile
              smile 28 December 2013 23: 13
              0
              Alex 241
              There was no reconnaissance at all, after reaching a unit or a specific object, the troops stood stupidly, not taking measures either to defend and hold an object or line, or to organize intelligence, generally stood stupidly and waited .... And .... now to gurgle. ..nafing-nafing ... otherwise we will again drool over the table ...
  • Tersky
    Tersky 28 December 2013 22: 18
    +4
    Quote: Ruslan67
    I’m going for the minuses. But somehow it became boring

    If it’s absolutely unbearable, then we are now quickly cooperating and throwing on friendship laughing ! Hi guys ... drinks!
    1. Ruslan67
      Ruslan67 28 December 2013 22: 22
      +3
      Quote: Tersky
      we are quickly cooperating now, we are spreading through friendship

      From you guys at least minus-you would have more laughing Hi Vitya drinks
  • I am
    I am 28 December 2013 23: 57
    +4
    Well, as an example, the assault by the Soviet troops of the KERNVERK fortress near the Polish city of Poznan. There, the attacking troops were three times smaller than the defenders, and besides, they were exhausted by battles in the city of Poznan. BUT !!!!!! The fortress did not last a week. So that ! My grandfather participated in the assault on this fortress and won, like the whole Soviet people!
    1. Alex 241
      Alex 241 29 December 2013 00: 03
      +2
      There is a book: "The Wreck of Kernwerk"
    2. smile
      smile 29 December 2013 02: 24
      +1
      I am
      Great example. The Poznan fortifications were in no way inferior to the Koenigsberg ones, except that the scale was smaller. By the way, everything was preserved there. When they were captured, we were not able to assemble such an artillery group as in Koenigsberg, and even the forces that we had there were inferior to the German ones very much .... they took exclusively by skill and heroism ... kill God, I don’t understand how ... . compared with what our grandfathers made some seemingly difficult episodes of our lives that we are proud of - so ... children's toys ...
      It’s very nice when women give such details .... and it’s a shame that among us there are such people as you spoke correctly, earcraps ..... well, it’s clear who it is .... :)))
  • Ruslan67
    Ruslan67 28 December 2013 19: 59
    +5
    Quote: Impich
    no one will convince me after the Neva patch that we knew something there ....

    Better shut up fool My grandfather was on the Nevsky Piglet and after a concussion was commissioned And survived in besieged Leningrad with his family And he was not a little less ... but you don’t need to know that request
  • KuzmichDP
    KuzmichDP 29 December 2013 01: 37
    0
    Dear Impich, this is a pathology, diagnosis, mania you ... here and Kashchenko is not far to reach! wassat
  • Proud.
    Proud. 29 December 2013 08: 27
    +2
    Quote: Impich
    you are pseudo-patriots and wicked cheers-patriots
    You ... You ... How are you washing your hands, sir? If you constantly throw guano?
    Quote: Impich
    remember
    Oh yes! Speak! Speak!
    Quote: Impich
    l for the holiday .. a present, so to speak, with a mustached satan ...
    Fear him, he will come for you.
    Quote: Impich
    I say.
    You!? Head, from OSH-10! With megalomania.
  • AntonR7
    AntonR7 28 December 2013 21: 25
    +8
    Do you think that we would not be able to cope one on one ?! It is stupid to think so. The Germans are cool warriors, but we are not made with a finger.
    1. Ruslan67
      Ruslan67 28 December 2013 21: 30
      +2
      Quote: AntonR7
      Do you think that we would not be able to cope one on one ?!

      Who is this for? what
    2. xan
      xan 29 December 2013 20: 52
      +1
      Quote: AntonR7
      Do you think that we would not be able to cope one on one ?!

      and what could the Germans be without the power of all conquered Europe
  • KuzmichDP
    KuzmichDP 29 December 2013 01: 31
    +1
    To begin with, with expressions, like red scoops, be careful, dear. And, then you remind me of Svidomo or Zmagar, those guys are the same A-ADEQUATES, even those ... wassat
  • Ruslan67
    Ruslan67 29 December 2013 04: 34
    +3
    Quote: Impich
    here half the people are not looking adequately ...

    But you quickly make a career good Decided by tradition to go to the ban on December 31? wassat
  • Irokez
    Irokez 28 December 2013 13: 27
    +5
    Everything is correct. For business and bankers, any war is a paradise. The same American banks and even a relative of Bush credited Germany in many ways and at the same time helped us. What is business? They feed both of them and for this they profit from both and a huge plus raise their economy and industry, looking ahead for development. And at the end of the war, the dollar as a currency was fixed and further parasitize on everyone. Here they are thought out what. And the second front - it was unprofitable to do because the war would have ended faster and fewer grandmas would have happened.
    The USSR paid for the products in gold, and sometimes ships with gold were drowned, but this is not a payment; it didn’t get as intended.
    Everywhere business spits, ordinary people suffer from spilling blood. So it turns out who saved whom or who earned on whom?
  • kotvov
    kotvov 28 December 2013 13: 40
    +3
    the way it is, but still read the book, “Top Secret,” author-ralph ingersoll. You know, somehow it all turned out differently. It's not that simple in that war. Thanks a lot for help, but there is so much backstage that it’s not you understand is help or earning weight and dough.
    1. CALL.
      CALL. 30 December 2013 07: 54
      -3
      Over the past 150 years of the history of USA, I don’t know a single case where the Americans, to someone, helped for free.
      Is the contribution of our allies to the defeat of Germany great? How great was Lend-Lease assistance?
      Would we be able to defeat Germany without help?
      The contribution is great, "help" amounted to about 4% of our capabilities. There was a coalition war. How to determine the contribution of a country or the value of assistance?
      The contribution to the victory of his coalition of the most powerful power in the world - the United States - and the country that controls a third of the world's human resources - Great Britain - was huge. Otherwise it can not be.
      But it’s worth comparing, just another. By the spring of 1943, the US armed forces exceeded ours. 9,5 million troops, the world's most powerful military production. And this is in the middle of the war. 4,8 million in England, not even counting the colonies and dominions. Together with the forces of the USSR (8,4 million), the anti-Hitler coalition has double superiority over the enemy on land, four times at sea and in the air. It would seem - what prevents to defeat the enemy with decisive blows and end the war? But a completely different ratio on the fronts is in the way. The USSR holds in the spring of 1943 more than 6 million people at the front. And the allies, twice as numerous, are less than 1 million ...
      That's right - let these Russians and Germans kill each other as much as possible. And our "faithful allies" at first do not want to open a second front in 1942, and promise to do so in 1943. Then they do not open it in 1943, but swear in Tehran that in the spring of 1944 ... As a result, a second front opens in the summer of 1944, when the defeat of Germany is already quite obvious.
      So what kind of help? Help is when England, NOT PARTICIPATING in the Russo-Japanese War, helps Japan. But in a coalition war, there is only one full-fledged help - active large-scale actions. And it was not the allies who helped us, but we - the allies. We bore the brunt of the main hostilities for them, dying for them. Even if it were not for 4 or 10% of deliveries, but 100%, and even if not for money, but completely free - it still would not change the main thing - we helped the allies, we died for them.
      And it would be better if the weapons they sent to us would instead be fought in Europe in the hands of American and English soldiers. That would be THEIR help.
  • Cristall
    Cristall 28 December 2013 13: 58
    +3
    Quote: ZABVO
    So Putin has already explained everything to everyone that only Russia could win the war

    without territory Bel. social of the republic and the Ukrainian SSR (I don’t even take the technical and other resource potential), this would be impossible. However, we all know that this is just political PR and, in principle, if this were the case, the story itself would be different. In the meantime, everything was so, was the USSR.
    For the Americans ...
    Their help is still invaluable ... about 2 years and at least millions of our lives ... the price is incomparable with any gold and resources! Thank you for that. They and the British. English help was also significant.
    Debunking the myth that the Americans do not consider the turning points and the most significant battles of 2MV to be the eastern ones. See even biased Discovery and others. Everywhere - the largest battle the hardest battle - Stalingrad. And if they conducted the simplest experiments with clothes and uniforms so that the ordinary spectator would believe in what conditions they fought! As they painted Kursk - everywhere there were only one epithet - the largest tank battles, blood and iron .. and others .. When they consecrated their battles, they did not do this.
    They often use the name Stalingrad for the names of the battles. Prokhorovka won used to exalt the war in Iraq (Kursk too)
    The best tank of the 10 Discovery-T 34 in terms of contribution to history, not quantity! Amersky Sherman is only 10 ... just "reliable" and how they stood him up with a "lighter" ...
    So in vain we are so on them, they helped us. They do not believe that Hitler only they won.
    The whole problem is education. At first they had (the Japanese won the 3rd world and therefore we have good mobile phones ... "Everyone hates Chris" and 2 in general between Jupiter and the Earth, etc. ..) and now we have. The rapid drop in the general level of education. "Reading new declassified sources" I don't need to go for examples - our Ukrainian programs are about "komunyak"
    Rewriting history to please the ruling regimes in the post-Soviet space.
    So you need to keep the Banner of Great Victory! And we can constantly lousy him ourselves ...
    PS remember == who is to blame - United States of America (song from YouTube)
    1. smile
      smile 28 December 2013 15: 14
      +4
      Glass
      Excuse me, but it seems that for some people, nationalism makes you be petty ...
      Both RI and the USSR abroad were called Russia, and everyone who lived there was called Russian. It was synonymous. And then and now. Nobody separated us or distinguished us. And when now someone says "Russia won the war," all normal people understand that they mean the USSR ... or instead of Russia, one should list all the republics and all one and a half hundred nationalities?
      Sorry, but this is already too much.
  • Skobelev
    Skobelev 28 December 2013 14: 04
    -2
    Thanks to the United States for helping the USSR deliver Lend-Lease supplies to defeat WWII with less blood.
    1. vladsolo56
      vladsolo56 28 December 2013 14: 32
      +3
      It was not help, but business. Everything was paid for in gold, so there was nothing to help. The USSR would not have had gold and there would have been no help.
      1. bairat
        bairat 28 December 2013 15: 22
        -1
        One should already know the basics of history; there was no business. The Lend-Lease loan was not paid at all, provided that at the end of the war everything that had survived was returned.
        1. typhoon7
          typhoon7 28 December 2013 16: 11
          +4
          What could have survived after the war? Stew, fuel, fuel oil, or Sherman, in which the Germans were considered humiliating not to get?
          1. bairat
            bairat 28 December 2013 16: 31
            0
            Steam engines, machine tools, trucks, power plants could survive.
            1. typhoon7
              typhoon7 28 December 2013 17: 16
              +6
              But the tons of gold that you said we should not have paid to the amers sent by the English cruiser, went down with this cruiser. And this is just what has become famous.
              1. Alex 241
                Alex 241 28 December 2013 19: 08
                +4
                ... At the end of April 1942, Edinburgh, at the head of the convoy of ships, left Murmansk for England. The cruiser was built shortly before the war. Its displacement is 10 thousand tons, length 174 meters, thickness of side armor up to 8 centimeters; he was armed with three-, four- and six-inch guns, torpedo tubes. On board the cruiser was, according to reports, about five and a half tons of gold - for greater safety, the precious cargo was placed in an artillery cellar. Gold was intended to pay for military supplies to our allies in the anti-Hitler coalition.
                On April 30, the Edinburgh cruiser, detached from anti-submarine defense ships, was torpedoed by a fascist submarine. According to eyewitnesses, the first blow was delivered on board, the second - in the stern, the propeller complex was damaged, as a result of which the Edinburgh lost speed, but still remained afloat.
                From the escort guard, two English and two Soviet destroyers, the Thundering and the Crushing, as well as a tugboat and a messenger ship, rushed to the aid of the cruiser. A favorable environment was created for towing to the Kola Bay. But on May XNUMX near the uncontrolled cruiser appeared three destroyers and torpedo bombers of the enemy and opened heavy fire on it. By this time, our warships, having exhausted their fuel supplies, had gone to bunker at the base, and the British destroyers engaged in continuous bombardment of enemy ships, skillfully maneuvered, set smoke screens, preventing torpedoes from being sent to Edinburgh. A tugboat and a messenger ship, after firing several shots, left the battle, so as not to interfere with the maneuvers of the destroyers.
                By the end of the battle, the enemy managed to send a third torpedo to the cruiser's stern, after which the Edinburgh banked even more. The Nazis also suffered losses. One destroyer was destroyed, the second was badly damaged and left the battlefield under cover of the third. So that the Edinburgh, which was still afloat, and the gold cargo didn’t go to the enemy, the cruiser was sunk by three on the orders of the convoy commander British Rear Admiral Carter torpedo shots. And with it the load of gold went into the depths of the sea.
              2. bairat
                bairat 28 December 2013 19: 42
                +2
                Quote: typhoon7
                And this is just what has become famous.

                for you, yes, for those less familiar with history, this is a long-known fact.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. aleksandroff
          aleksandroff 28 December 2013 18: 54
          +1
          See when Russia paid a land lease. You need to know, and then comment.
      2. Amfitsion
        Amfitsion 28 December 2013 16: 46
        -1
        How much gold has been paid? What amount? What is the number?
        1. poquello
          poquello 28 December 2013 18: 53
          +5
          Quote: Amphitious
          How much gold has been paid? What amount? What is the number?

          and what do you want?
          The first deliveries from the United States date back to October 1941. This year, the USSR received various weapons and military materials worth $ 545 thousand, which amounted to less than one tenth of the total cost of US supplies to other countries. In addition, the USSR purchased goods for cash in the amount of 41 million dollars. Until the end of 1941, the United States supplied the USSR with 204 aircraft instead of 600 provided for under the protocol, 182 tanks instead of 750. According to Harriman, the USA fulfilled only a quarter of their obligations under the first protocol.

          http://www.world-war.ru/fakticheskaya-storona-pomoshhi-po-lend-lizu/

          And one moment
          Initially, the administration estimated its claims at $ 2,6 billion, but next year reduced the amount to $ 1,3 billion. These claims discriminated against the Soviet Union, for example, Great Britain, which received twice as much help, was supposed to pay only $ 472 million, i.e., about 2% of the cost of military supplies.

          And one moment
          As G. Ickes testifies, the American leadership strove to “let the Russians give us all their gold, which would be redeemed for the supply of goods until (it) was exhausted. From now on, we will apply the Lend-Lease Act to Russia ”[8]. In payment for supplies, the USSR also transferred strategic raw materials to the United States - manganese, chromium, asbestos, platinum, etc.

          And one moment
          Summing up the assistance provided to our country by the United States, Great Britain and Canada, it should be noted that the share of their supplies in relation to domestic production was only about 4%. In total, during the war, 42 convoys arrived at Soviet ports, and 36 were sent from the USSR.
        2. I am
          I am 29 December 2013 00: 01
          +2
          Lives paid for the trick. Caravan PQ-17 to help you. And he’s all about despicable metal, except for radio electronics and a little for medicine.
    2. typhoon7
      typhoon7 28 December 2013 16: 06
      +7
      In response, ships loaded with gold left a bloodless country.
      1. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 28 December 2013 16: 13
        +8
        Quote: typhoon7
        In response, ships loaded with gold left a bloodless country.

        And the gallant English sea wolves were in such a hurry that they neglected anti-submarine maneuvers. The fate of the cruiser Edinburgh is an excellent proof of this.
      2. bairat
        bairat 28 December 2013 16: 36
        +1
        Ships, only in the singular, the below-mentioned sunken Edinburgh was the only attempt to take out the gold. This was at the very beginning of the war, when the Lend-Lease Act had not yet begun to apply to the USSR.
        1. typhoon7
          typhoon7 28 December 2013 17: 20
          0
          How do you know? These operations were extremely classified. And it became known about Edinburgh, because it was sunk and gold was at the bottom. over it had to recognize its sovereignty.
    3. aleksandroff
      aleksandroff 28 December 2013 18: 51
      +3
      Yes, and probably thanks to them that they unleashed this war in order to save themselves and their economy. You look, and in general there would be no victims. AND SO, THEREFORE THANKS THEM FOR ALL THIS WAR !. And Lend-Lease we paid only recently. THANKS FOR SUCH LAND-LIZ.
      1. CALL.
        CALL. 30 December 2013 08: 34
        0
        BIG LAND LYS AGREEMENT WITH RUSSIA
        Agreement between the United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics on the principles of mutual assistance in waging war against aggressors.
        Whereas the governments of the United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics proclaim that they cooperate with all the peoples who share their aspirations, with the goal of laying the foundations of a just and lasting world peace, ensuring law and order for themselves and for all nations;
        Whereas, in accordance with the Act of March 11, 1941, the President of the United States of America proclaimed the defense of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics from aggression vital to the security of the United States of America;
        Article I
        The Government of the United States of America undertakes to continue to provide the Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics with such defense materials, defense services and defense information as the President of the United States of America considers necessary to provide.
        Article II

        The Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics undertakes to continue to contribute to strengthening the defense of the United States of America by providing materials, services and information for this purpose, depending on its capabilities.
        Article V
        The Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics undertakes to return to the United States of America at the end of the current emergency, according to the decision of the President of the United States of America, those defense materials obtained under this treaty that were not destroyed, lost or fully used and which the President deems useful for the defense of the United States America or the Western Hemisphere, or otherwise otherwise beneficial to the United States of America.
        Article VII.
        In the final determination of the benefits that the government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics will provide to the United States of America in exchange for the assistance received under the Law of March 11, 1941, the relevant terms and conditions must be such as not to become an obstacle to trade between the two countries, but to promote mutually beneficial economic relations between them and improve economic relations throughout the world.
        1. CALL.
          CALL. 30 December 2013 12: 01
          0
          Article VIII
          This agreement shall enter into force on this date. It will remain valid until a date to be agreed upon by both governments.
          Signed and sealed in Washington, in duplicate, on this eleventh day of June 2.
          Gave it briefly. Payment should have been agreed after the war. And after the war, the Cold War began. Benefactors - damn it
  • Boris63
    Boris63 28 December 2013 14: 24
    +7
    With supplies under Lend-Lease to the USSR, the Americans defended their insolent Saxons from the VBR. Their (with the allies) landing in Normandy helped in the final flare-up of Germany, but not cardinally. The Americans themselves can write whatever they want about their participation in WWII, but we know how it was and should, to the best of our strength and ability, convey the truth to the "young" minds.
  • Irokez
    Irokez 28 December 2013 14: 39
    +4
    It is good if history is no longer rewritten, but it turns out that the German-American and coalition forces liberated Russia from the Communists under the dictatorship of Stalin, and then until 1945 they retreated, transferring local authority to the liberated people, and the losses were from Communist partisans.
  • Mikola-78
    Mikola-78 28 December 2013 15: 04
    +1
    Good article
  • Goldmitro
    Goldmitro 28 December 2013 15: 23
    +5
    <<< Many Americans (I’ll hardly be wrong if I say that the majority) are firmly convinced that their country made a decisive contribution to the victory over Germany and Japan in World War II and that the USSR would have been crushed by Hitler without American arms supplies.> >>
    The farther from the events of the twentieth century, the more significant and majestic for world history the victory over fascist Germany and militarist Japan in World War II looks, the more people, and, above all, in the United States, England, to appropriate the laurels of the winner, the more that they cannot boast of other significant victories! And it doesn't matter to these champions of democracy and justice that the true triumphant and victor of fascist Germany is the Russian people, Russia is the USSR, which hoisted its flag of victory over the Reichstag in the den of fascism and made a huge contribution to the victory over Japan, put more than 27 MILLION lives on the Altar of Victory their citizens! These Hollywood fans are not accustomed to reshaping history at their own discretion and rewarding themselves with the laurels of the winner with the help of cinema pots spread around the world, tricks that make heroes exclusively of American soldiers, and with the help of newly minted "historians and experts" who crawl out from everywhere, through the latest media technologies in the powerful Western media to brainwash ordinary people for the "correct" understanding of history! So, as they say, Russia will have an eternal battle, we only dream of peace!
  • Stas57
    Stas57 28 December 2013 15: 25
    +7
    why is everyone so excited then?
    Well, Americans are not obliged to assume that we won, they are obliged to root for their own.
    in every country, the political system uses this topic as it is beneficial to him, and certainly not in the key to how it is beneficial to us. Especially Russia (Balts, Poles and other greetings)).
    Yes, foreign historians write about our contribution, but the media and the townsfolk do not know.
    And we know a lot about Chiang Kai-shek, about the Sino-Japanese War (1937 — 1945) and its third stage (and after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, the Second Sino-Japanese War became part of World War II.)?
    And by the way, as many as 20 million people died here (by the way, if not 35 million). Who knows? no one! What do we care about them?
    Well, what do we care what the Americans think there? In order for them to think normally, it is necessary not to shoot US2, but films of the level "The Cranes Are Flying" and TV channels of the level of Discovery, so that Russian is world-wide not nominally, but in reality, on business, then everyone will know!
    1. smile
      smile 28 December 2013 16: 51
      +4
      Stas57
      Ours know incomparably more about the participation of all other countries in the War than the peoples of our probable friends about us put together, and it is their propaganda that comes to us here to brainwash us that we were no better than Hitler, and that Americans won ...
      1. Ruslan67
        Ruslan67 28 December 2013 19: 51
        +5
        Quote: smile
        Ours know incomparably more about the participation of all other countries in the war than the peoples of our probable friends about us,

        By the way, are you aware that the Kingdom of Tong is among the countries of the Winners soldier laughing
        1. smile
          smile 28 December 2013 21: 47
          +3
          Ruslan67
          To be honest, I don’t remember about Tonga, but when I got acquainted with the list of countries - winners, I just ran my eyes ... grinned :)))
          But Tonga - how not to know, because they killed in the jungle (or whatever they have there) the Panzervaffe strike power and personally hoisted the flag over the defeated Reich chancellery. :)))
          1. Ruslan67
            Ruslan67 28 December 2013 21: 52
            +5
            Quote: smile
            But Tonga - how not to know, because they killed in their jungle

            Is funny And so the picture of a country with a population at that time of the order of 30-40 thousand is distorted! person Officially! joined the coalition Declared war on the Axis countries and equipping with their own money a full platoon request sent to the army of the allies The desire to make fun of is not lost?
            1. smile
              smile 28 December 2013 23: 19
              +1
              Ruslan67
              Missing ... completely gone. I'm serious like a hole in the outhouse. And be sure to find the details.
      2. Stas57
        Stas57 29 December 2013 09: 15
        0
        Ours know incomparably more about the participation of all other countries in the war,
        I don’t know, maybe you have statistics, but personally I doubt that we know well, for example. the events described above.

        at the same time, it is their propaganda that comes to us here to brainwash ours that we were no better than Hitler and that the Americans won ...

        I already said, their propaganda is high-quality cinema and television channels, we have y.
        "Save rR" is a good, high-quality movie, but US2 is bullshit, which no one in the world can watch and copy.
        that's all.
  • Nikita_Pilot
    Nikita_Pilot 28 December 2013 15: 29
    +1
    My cousin was the mechanic of the tank Matilda, and let the British.
  • Altona
    Altona 28 December 2013 16: 18
    0
    Quote: Aron Zaavi
    That the defense of the Brest Fortress is the highest feat of the military spirit of the soldiers of the Red Army, who, in the conditions excluding organized resistance to superior enemy forces, continued focal resistance surrounded by 22 / 6 by 23 / 7, and single groups until the seridine of August 1941 of the year.

    -------------------------
    Why red army? NKVD respected, and not otherwise ... These were the Beria guys, border guards ...
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 28 December 2013 16: 25
      +5
      Quote: Altona
      Why red army? NKVD respected, and not otherwise ... These were the Beria guys, border guards ...

      and the others were picking their nose?

      By 22 on June 1941, 8 rifle and 1 reconnaissance battalions, 2 artillery divisions (PTO and air defense), some special units of rifle regiments and corps units, and enlisted personnel of the 6 th Orlov and 42 rifle XUM rifle divisions were deployed in the fortress corps of the 28th army, units of the 4th Red Banner Brest Border Detachment, 17th separate engineering regiment, several units of the 33th separate battalion of escort troops of the NKVD, headquarters of units (headquarters of divisions and 132-th arrows ovogo housing located in Brest), only 28 thousand men, not counting family members (9 military families)
    2. family tree
      family tree 28 December 2013 16: 40
      +2
      Quote: Altona
      Why red army? NKVD respected, and not otherwise ... These were the Beria guys, border guards ...

      Everyone was there, from the Red Army units of the 6th and 42nd SD, from the NKVD the 17th border detachment and the 132nd separate battalion.
      1. Stas57
        Stas57 28 December 2013 19: 47
        0
        he has it, I quote
        -the smear from the Red Army,
    3. Ivanovich47
      Ivanovich47 28 December 2013 19: 59
      +2
      No dear Altona, The Brest Fortress was defended by the Red Army, the Soviet soldier:
      By the beginning of June 1941, parts of the fortress were located two rifle divisions of the Red Army. These were staunch, hardened, well-trained troops. One of these divisions - the 6-I Oryol Red Banner - had a long and glorious fighting history ... The other - the 42-I rifle division - was created in 1940 during the Finnish campaign and has already managed to show itself well in battles on the Mannerheim line.
    4. 11111mail.ru
      11111mail.ru 28 December 2013 21: 22
      +1
      Quote: Altona
      NKVD respected, and not otherwise ... These were the Beria guys, border guards ...

      Get a grenade!
      http://vk.com/topic-3776708_6103667

      Deployment on June 22

      On June 22, 1941, in the Brest Fortress were:
      6th Oryol Red Banner Division
      - 84 rifle regiment without two battalions - Dorodnykh S.K.
      - 125 rifle regiment without a battalion and combat engineer company - Kovtunenko
      - 333 rifle regiment without a battalion and combat engineer company - Matveev D.I.
      - 131 artillery regiment - Gubanov B.S. major
      - 75 separate reconnaissance battalion
      - 246 separate anti-aircraft artillery division
      - 98 separate division of anti-tank guns - Nikitin, major
      - staff battery
      - 37 separate battalion of communications
      - 31 autobat

      Meli, Emelya, your week! All you NKVD fancies. Probably the genetic memory has wandered.
    5. stroporez
      stroporez 5 January 2014 11: 52
      0
      Yes sir. the border troops belonged to the NKVD .... it is hard to deny the feat of the Brest Fortress and others in the first days of the war, but to recognize the feat as a "bloody hebnya" ........
  • Altona
    Altona 28 December 2013 16: 25
    +5
    The banner of the defenders of Brest ... The banner shows that the defenders were not only from the Red Army, but from the NKVD ... Remember this!
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 28 December 2013 16: 32
      +2
      and did they pass by?

      Mironov Efim Andreevich (1921-1941g., Village of Novy Turdaki, Kochkurovsky district) - Private of the 455th Infantry Regiment of the 42th Infantry Division, called 12.10.40g. Yurgamyshsky RVK, died 23 June 1941g., Was buried in Brest, in the fortress.

      .Aleksunin Ivan Efimovich (1913-1984) - lieutenant, platoon commander of the 333 rifle regiment.
      2.Alkanov Konstantin Petrovich (1918?) - (village of Novonikolskoye, Yelnikovskiy district), privates of the 333 rifle regiment. Until the end of the war was in captivity.
      3.Alyamkin. Captured.
      4. Bolshakov Victor Aleksandrovich (village of Nadezhdino, Elnikovsky district), 333 rifle regiment. He was captured.
      5. Brezgin was captured.
      6. Vasiliev Alexander Ivanovich (Saransk) - chief of staff of the 33-th separate engineering regiment. Missing.
      7. Ivan Ivanovich Vasiliev (1918?) - sergeant, assistant commander of a horse reconnaissance platoon of the 333 rifle regiment.
      8.Gavin P.T. Captured.
      9.Gnilov A.P. (v. Nadezhdino, Elnikovsky district). Captured.
      10.Igonin Sergey Yakovlevich (village Alza, Chamzinsky district) - ordinary repair company of the 22-th light tank division.
      11. Mikhail Alekseevich Karavaev (village of Chudinka, Atyuryevsky District) - Private, clerk of the 333 th Infantry Regiment. He was captured.
      12. Kizhapkin Semen Vasilievich (village of Staraya Kyarga, Atyuryevsky District) - an ordinary transport company of the 84 th Infantry Regiment. Until the end of the war was in captivity.
      13.Kokov. Captured.
      14. Komissarov M.M. (village Novonikolskoye, Elnikovskiy district).
      15.Kugryshev Mikhail Evdokimovich (s.Skryabino, Lambirsky district), 297 regiment of the 121th Infantry Division.
      16.Kyashkin Mikhail Andreevich (village of Mordovskie Poshaty, Elnikovskiy district) - cadet of the 132-th separate battalion of the 44-th regiment of the 42-th rifle division.
      17.Makarov Nikolay Egorovich (village of Mord. Kozlovka, Atyuryevsky District) - Private combat engineer platoon of the 84 th Infantry Regiment. Until the end of the war was in captivity.
      18.Makeykin Vasily Stepanovich (1919-1941) - sergeant commander of the 333 rifle regiment.
      19. Menyakin Yegor Sidorovich (Permisi village, Bolshebereznikovsky district) - a riding 333 rifle regiment. Until the end of the war was in captivity.
      20.Mironov Efim Andreevich (1921-1941g., Village of Novy Turdaki, Kochkurovsky district) - Private of the 455th Infantry Regiment of the 42th Infantry Division, called 12.10.40g. Yurgamyshsky RVK, died 23 June 1941g., Was buried in Brest, in the fortress.
      21.Mitin Vasily Dovidovich (village Russkaya Lashma, Rybkinsky (now MO Kovylkino) district) - Private of the 455 rifle regiment.
      22.Novikov Konstantin Antonovich
      23. Polinov Alexey Vasilievich
      24. Justice M.V. (village Novonikolskoye, Elnikovskiy district).
      25. Pianjin. Captured.
      26.Romodanov Peter Yakovlevich (village Shein-Maidan, Atyashevsky district). Died 22 June 1941 year.
      27.Rusyaev Yakov Stepanovich (Nagornaya Vyshenka village, Chamzinsky district) is a technician of 1 rank of the 123 air regiment.
      28.Sachkov Alexander Alekseevich (village of Arkhangelskoye Golitsyno, Ruzayevsky district). Missing in 1941 a year.
      29.Sirkin. Captured.
      30.Tivikov EA (village Elniki) - transport company of the 333 infantry regiment. Killed, buried in a mass grave at the memorial complex.
      31.Trofimov (v. Novaya Kyarga) .He was captured.
      32.Trofimov A.N. Captured.
      33.Tutukov Grigory Ivanovich (1915-1941), village Elniki, Elnikovskiy district) - Private 333 infantry regiment. Killed 23 June 1941 year.
      34.Tyutin, Vasily Pavlovich (Tazino village, Bolshebereznikovsky district) - Red Army soldier of the 84 rifle regiment. In June, 1941 of the year was captured.
      35. Fedkin Zakhar Andreevich (Klopinka village, Atyurievsky district) - an ordinary transport company of the 84 rifle regiment. From June 30, 1941 of the year until the end of the war was held captive.
      36. Shukshin (Novaya Kyarga village). Captured.
  • Altona
    Altona 28 December 2013 16: 29
    0
    Quote: Stas57
    several units of the 132nd separate NKVD convoy battalion, unit headquarters (divisional headquarters and the 28th infantry corps were located in Brest), only 9 thousand people

    -----------------------
    Did I say something wrong? In my opinion, everything is true ... And it is impossible to belittle the role of the NKVD ...
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 28 December 2013 16: 35
      +1
      Did I say something wrong? In my opinion, everything is true ... And it is impossible to belittle the role of the NKVD ...

      and you can beg for the rest, well, those who are not the NKVD?
      you wrote
      Why red army? NKVD respected, and not otherwise ... These were the Beria guys, border guards ...

      clearly and clearly, there is no double meaning.
      express your thoughts more clearly if you are aground due to something other than denying the role of the Red Army in defense
  • Altona
    Altona 28 December 2013 16: 36
    +1
    Quote: Stas57
    and did they pass by?

    ________________
    Did I say that? You yourself invent a problem and lament over it ... I reveal other layers that you pass by ...
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 28 December 2013 16: 50
      0
      Did I say that? You yourself invent a problem and lament over it ... I reveal other layers that you pass by ...

      there is only one problem, you are trying to exalt the NKVD for a good purpose, coating the campaign of the Red Army soldiers.
      recall that Gavrilov was appointed commander of the 44 rifle regiment, a group led by Lieutenant A. A. Vinogradov and captain I. N. Zubachev from the 445 c red army, this is one of the last groups in the fortress.
      Fight less for the NKVD, there will be more benefit, otherwise your selection as a kosher and doesn’t smell very bad of rezunism
      1. Andreas
        Andreas 28 December 2013 21: 20
        -5
        The NKVD escort troops (guard, not border guards) fled at the first shots at the Brest Fortress, throwing their banner.
        The fortress was defended by the troops of the Red Army.
        1. stroporez
          stroporez 5 January 2014 11: 56
          0
          yeah ...... they ran, and you whistled after them ... when will you publish your memoirs?
  • Altona
    Altona 28 December 2013 16: 39
    -1
    Quote: Stas57
    express your thoughts more clearly if you are aground due to something other than denying the role of the Red Army in defense

    ----------------------
    Who denied what? I magnify the role of border guards and the NKVD ... And then everyone has only detachments on their ears ... First, secondly, the border guards were more organized and disciplined in a general sense, rather than a redneck from the Red Army, which was also left without communication ...
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 28 December 2013 16: 43
      +1
      Who denied what?

      you, the role of the Red Army
      Why red army? NKVD respected, and not otherwise ...

      I magnify the role of border guards and the NKVD ... Otherwise, everyone has only detachments on their ears ...

      and I magnify the role of the defenders of the fortress, there the civilians were and fought, but judging by your logic,

      if the daub from the Red Army, which also remained unconnected ...

      aren't they even people?
      still burn, such defenders of the NKVD and the memory of the people, worse agents of the FBI bully
    2. Ivanovich47
      Ivanovich47 28 December 2013 20: 19
      +4
      You speak, Squat from the Red Army, soldiers of the Soviet Union who gave their lives for us - a mess? What are you doing on this site7
  • Zomanus
    Zomanus 28 December 2013 16: 42
    +4
    You need to understand the main thing. It was important for Amers that Germany (Europe) and the USSR mutually destroy each other. And support went to all sides in such a way that we would kill and kill each other ... Operation "Unthinkable" did not just happen. And the Americans entered the war only when they realized that it was time for themselves to grab a piece of victory in Europe. Moreover, in the event that the fascists gave them in the head, the Americans asked us to strengthen the offensive on the Eastern Front. This is Europe and America, there is no need to look at it from the perspective of spirituality and humanism. This is pure business.
    1. typhoon7
      typhoon7 28 December 2013 17: 26
      +3
      Totally agree with you.
  • Altona
    Altona 28 December 2013 16: 45
    0
    Quote: Stas57
    aren't they even people?
    still burn, such defenders of the NKVD and the memory of the people, worse agents of the FBI

    ----------------------------
    And then the memory of the people? We kind of talk about the initial period of the war ... You are annealing here with quotes from Google ... Nobody denies the feat of the defenders of Brest, you only need to consider it in context, and not with a marble sign in the Pantheon ...
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 28 December 2013 16: 53
      +1
      ... Nobody denies the feat of the defenders of Brest, only it is necessary to consider it in context, and not with a marble sign in the Pantheon ..

      Well, consider it, but for you, only the NKVD fighters fought, and the rest passed by like you said? Squat from the Red Army,
      Oh well...
  • nnz226
    nnz226 28 December 2013 17: 35
    +2
    When the Japanese tore off the overs in Pearl Harbor (07.12.1941), which was the reason for their entry into the war, our two days drove the Germans from Moscow (the beginning of the 05.12.1941 offensive)! And then, for another two years, the Japanese drove the Americans across the Pacific Ocean, and they did not know where to hide them.
  • Amfitsion
    Amfitsion 28 December 2013 17: 46
    0
    The article seems to be plausible at first glance, but sins with many flaws, distortions and defaults.
    To begin with, at the official level, the US government has never disputed the key role of the USSR's contribution to the overall victory over Germany. And then, according to the author, "many Americans think ..." - then there is a direct road to their forums and write to them there. And it looks like an attempt at some kind of self-hypnosis, to convince, first of all, himself and those around him.
    I agree with the author that the calculation of 4% of GDP is fundamentally wrong by definition. For LL blocked exactly that critical aspects of the Soviet economy. How, for example, to evaluate the supply of aluminum in the 42nd century and their significance for the tank and aircraft industry? During the war, St. 22 million Red Army soldiers. 80% of the drugs are Land Liz. How to count the contribution? How many millions of them would additionally die or remain disabled? And how to assess the impact of transport in the mechanization of troops in operations 44-45; where did pace of advancement and mechanization play a key role? Would there be such large-scale and rapid operations on the environment in general? And so in everything, a million factors ...
    Further, one of the most objective assessments is the distribution of For if the rasseconomic efforts of the parties, a discussion of which we are carefully trying to avoid. For if you consider this, the role and contribution of the United States and Britain look already in a completely different light ...
    The author writes: "The fact remains that during the most difficult period of the war for our country - in the summer and autumn of 1941 - there were no lend-lease supplies in the USSR yet." It was the blitz-krieg that was stopped, but the war was not won. The author postulates a widespread misconception - since they did not surrender Moscow-Leningrad and stopped the Germans, we will already win the war by default. It is fundamentally wrong. It was after the failure of the blitzkrieg (by the way, to slow down which it was required to mobilize no less than 19 million people in just 6 months of 41), the war of economies and resources comes to the fore. The economic potential of Germany before the war was much higher than that of the USSR, and after the catastrophe of 41, this difference was several times. In 41, they sacrificed everything that they had prepared for the years before the war, tanks, aviation, artillery, a regular army - everything disappeared.
    Well, there are statistical inaccuracies - by January 45th, there were 146 divisions in the East, not 179. In the West, 79, not 73. And for some reason, the author did not write anything about Italy, and there were 28 German divisions there, and all staffed and well equipped. It turns out, 146 against 107. Another 15 divisions were in Norway and the Balkans.
    1. smile
      smile 28 December 2013 20: 22
      +3
      Amfitsion
      So you say things are right ... but why then do you not recognize that Lend-Lease was profitable, profitable in every sense, including economically to our allies?
      And the fact that it is economically advantageous is not said by us bad people, but by such guys as Stennius, Hopkins, Roosevelt ... or did our state patriots bribe them along with the commissioners? :)))
      You are ruined here that you are being ignored, but you are ignoring the quotes that I have cited, as well as the arguments, specific links provided, for example, by my colleague poquello.
      You do not carefully notice that there was a reverse Lend-Lease, and platinum and other strategic materials that we supplied .... everything was ... and I repeat - they themselves believed that they invested very profitably and received dividends, even not getting as much profit from us as we hoped ....

      Also, you diligently pretend that you do not know about the large-scale supplies of fuel, strategic materials and dual-use equipment to the Nazis throughout the war - and do not try to be indignant and pretend to be a fool - just read Hayem's book "Trade with the Enemy" and keep quiet ... ...

      I'm not saying that it was the Anglo-Saxons who nourished, pumped up loans, created the appropriate industry, armed Germany, gave them the industry of the leading European arms exporter and its giant strategic reserves and financial assets - Czechoslovakia .... Without this, Hitler could not to fight - he would even dream of it carefully ...

      So, do not be indignant so loudly ... you would be ashamed .... a truth-maker ... you too deftly dodge to not answer uncomfortable questions yourself ... :)))
      Even lazy to argue with you ... time to waste ...
      1. Alex 241
        Alex 241 28 December 2013 20: 33
        +4
        Corporations that owe their success to the Nazis: 1. General Electric (GE)

        In 1946, the US government imposed a fine on General Electric due to its misbehavior in wartime. Together with Krupp, a German industrial company, General Electric deliberately increased the price of tungsten carbide, which is a vital material for the machining of metals needed for the needs of the front. However, having been fined a total of some 36 thousand dollars, General Electric itself only made about one and a half million dollars on this fraud, thereby preventing mobilization and raising the price of victory over Nazism. GE, in addition, before the war broke out, bought a stake in Siemens, which made it an accomplice in the use of slave labor for the construction of the very gas chambers where many sick workers found their end. BMW

        BMW confessed to using during the war 30 thousand bonded unskilled workers. These prisoners of war, bonded laborers and prisoners of concentration camps produced engines for the Luftwaffe and were thus forced to help the regime protect itself from those who tried to save them. In wartime, BMW concentrated solely on the production of airplanes and motorcycles, without claiming anything other than to be a supplier of military vehicles for the Nazis. 3. Nestle

        In 2000, Nestle, in connection with the use of slave labor at the time, paid to the relevant fund more than 14,5 million dollars to settle the claims of people affected by its actions and Holocaust survivors, as well as Jewish organizations. The company made a recognition that in 1947, it acquired a company that used forced labor during the war, and also stated: “There is no doubt or it can be assumed that some corporations from the Nestle group operating in the countries controlled by the national socialist (Nazi) regime, exploited servile laborers. " Nestle in 1939 in Switzerland provided financial assistance to the Nazi Party, winning as a result a lucrative contract for the supply of chocolate for the needs of the entire German army during World War II.
        1. Alex 241
          Alex 241 28 December 2013 20: 35
          +1
          4. Novartis

          Although Bayer is notorious for starting out as a unit of the gas producer Cyclone B, used by the Nazis in gas chambers, it is not the only pharmaceutical company with skeletons in the closet. The Swiss chemical companies Ciba and Sandoz as a result of the merger formed Novartis, best known for its medicine Ritalin (the notorious psychostimulant widely used in the USA for the treatment of children's hyperactivity; note mixednews). In 1933, the Berlin branch of Ciba terminated the powers of all members of its board of directors of Jewish nationality and replaced them with more “acceptable” Aryan cadres; Meanwhile, Sandoz was engaged in similar activities in relation to its chairman. During the war, companies produced dyes, drugs, and chemicals for the Nazis. Novartis frankly admitted her guilt and tried to make amends for it in a way that is typical of other partner companies — by donating $ 15 million to the Swiss compensation fund for victims of Nazism. 5. Allianz

          Allianz is considered the twelfth largest financial services company in the world. It is not surprising that, being founded in 1890 in Germany, it was the largest insurer in it when the Nazis came to power. As such, it quickly found itself tied to affairs with the Nazi regime. Its leader, Kurt Schmitt, was also Hitler's Minister of Economics, and the company insured Auschwitz facilities and personnel. Its CEO is responsible for the practice of paying insurance compensation for Jewish property destroyed as a result of Kristallnacht to the Nazi state instead of eligible beneficiaries. In addition, the company worked closely with the Nazi state to track the life insurance policies of German Jews sent to death camps, and during the war, insured in favor of the Nazis property taken from the same Jewish population. 6. Coca-Cola

          Fanta is an aromatic orange-flavored drink that was originally intended for the Nazis. Quite right, the import of cola ingredients, giving the brand its name, was difficult, so the head of the Coca-Cola division in Germany, Max Kait, invented a new drink that could be made from available ingredients.

          In 1941, Fanta made her debut in the German market. Mack Kite himself was not a Nazi, but his efforts to maintain the smooth operation of the Coca-Cola unit throughout the war meant that the company reaped substantial profits and with the end of the war could return to the spread of Coca-Cola among American soldiers stationed in Europe7. Kodak

          When you think of Kodak, idyllic family photos and captured memories immediately appear before your eyes, but what you really need to keep in mind is forced labor, which was used in the German branch of the firm during World War II. Kodak subsidiaries in neutral European countries did a lively business with the Nazis, providing them with both a market for their goods and valuable foreign currency. The Portuguese unit even transferred its profits to the unit in The Hague, which was then under Nazi occupation. Moreover, this company was engaged not only in the manufacture of cameras - it mastered the production of fuses, detonators and other military products for the Germans.
          1. Alex 241
            Alex 241 28 December 2013 20: 36
            +2
            8. Random house

            You might not have heard of Bertelsmann AG, but you will hear about books published by many of its subsidiaries, including Random House, Bantam Books, and Doubleday. While the Nazis were in power, Bertelsmann published Nazi propaganda literature, such as “Sterilization and Eftanasia - a Contribution to Applied Christian Ethics.” She even unveiled the work of Willy Vesper, who gave an enthusiastic speech while burning books in 1933. In 1997, Random House was at the center of another discussion about Nazism, when it added “a personality fanatically devoted to a certain activity, practice, etc. or the desire to get hold of them ”to the definition of“ Nazi ”in Webster’s dictionary, which prompted the Anti-Defamation League to make a statement according to which the publisher“ downplayed and denied the bloodthirsty intent and actions of the Nazi regime. ” 9. Ford

            Henry Ford was in himself a notorious anti-Semite, who published a selection of articles under the fascinating title “International Jewry. The original world problem. Ford even sponsored his own newspaper, which he used as an element of propaganda, accusing the Jews of World War I, and in 1938 he received the Order of Merit of the German Eagle, the highest distinction of Nazi Germany, which was awarded to foreign nationals.

            Ford's German department produced a third of military trucks for the needs of the German army during the war, with widespread labor from prisoners. What is even more shocking - perhaps the forced labor was used at Ford's production back in 1940 - when the American division of the company still retained complete control over it. 10. Chase Bank

            If you think that the collusion of Chase Bank (now JP Morgan Chase) with the Nazis is not so surprising. One of the main holders of his shares, J.D. Rockefeller, directly financed the pre-war eugenic experiments of the Nazis.

            Between 1936 and 1941 for years, Chase and other US banks helped the Germans get over 20 million in dollar terms, earning over 1,2 million dollars in commissions - of which Chase put half a million into his pocket. In those days it was a lot of money. The fact that German marks aimed at financing the operation had as their source the Jews who had fled from Nazi Germany did not seem to be embarrassed by Chase - in fact, the bank corrected its affairs after Kristallnacht (the night in 1938, during which throughout Nazi Germany and Austria were targeted pogroms). Chase also froze the accounts of French Jews in occupied France before the Nazis even thought about asking for it.
      2. Amfitsion
        Amfitsion 28 December 2013 21: 33
        +2
        ---- You do not carefully notice that there was a reverse Lend-Lease, and platinum and other strategic materials that we supplied .-----
        Why don’t I notice? It was. In the amount of 2 million dollars. Or about 1/5000 of the cost of Lend-Lease. Or 0,002% if it’s more convenient for you.

        ---- "Trade with the enemy" and keep quiet .....----
        I read this book back in the 90s, when, I bet you didn’t even hear about it.
        And the nonsense about "Standard Oil" helping the Nazis, which in fact, even before the First World War, was divided into 38 companies, by the antitrust trust, is not interesting to me.

        --- I'm not saying that it was the Anglo-Saxons who nourished, pumped up loans, created the appropriate industry, armed Germany, gave them the industry of the leading European arms exporter and its giant strategic reserves and financial assets- Czechoslovakia ...---

        How does this relate, in fact, to the topic of the article? In the same way, the industry of the USSR was created, by the same Americans.
        Funny demagoguery - since the Germans nationalized American enterprises at home, does it automatically mean that the USA supported the Germans in the war?
        Tell me, if tomorrow, say, a war between Russia and Germany begins (China, the United States is not the point), Russia will take away from the French the Avtovaz belonging to them, I wonder if you are stupid enough to say that "France is howling on the side of Russia"?
  • samoletil18
    samoletil18 28 December 2013 18: 00
    +4
    Lend-lease is such a formula for the rental of materials and weapons of one of the belligerents. Roosevelt, promoting this project, cited a garden hose as an example to extinguish a fire in a neighboring house so that the fire would not spread to his own. Silent about gas in the hose. Only when help was needed, like air, did the PQ-17 convoy drown almost all, and the ships launched along long routes, in order to determine the outcome of the Battle of Stalingrad and the battle for the Caucasus. Here the Germans stalled and help went, and not just words of support.
    About the opening of the second front, only talk was, until the T-34 ISs started with buckets for washing tanks in the English Channel.
  • santush
    santush 28 December 2013 18: 05
    +3
    The funny thing is that the Americans believe sincerely in their exclusivity.
  • gawroche
    gawroche 28 December 2013 18: 08
    +7
    History cannot be seen from one event, which was "Lend-Lease" simply to ask "Who armed Hitler"? The answer is simple, American capital. After the start of the war, Great Britain was threatened and its collapse after the evacuation of Keil was certainly improving, the United States was afraid of losing income and Hitler sent to the USSR. It opened a new sales market - Lend-Lease. War does not win equipment and weapons a soldiers and in blood spilled
    1. Amfitsion
      Amfitsion 28 December 2013 18: 18
      -4
      In the same way, put the question: "Who created the entire Soviet industry from scratch in the early 30s? The answer is simple, American capital"
      1. smile
        smile 28 December 2013 20: 33
        +5
        Amfitsion
        Why lie so impudently, interesting? Or you can’t defend your point of view without lies? :)))
        So, nobody credited us, we ourselves paid to all the countries from which we BUY everything we needed for an industrial breakthrough at any price. Including the Americans, whose capital saved itself with our help.
        Germany was intensely pumped up with monstrous loans and created from them entire industries needed for the war, for example, all synthetic gasoline plants.
        American capital, together with the English gift, gave up the military industry of Czechoslovakia. In relation to Hitler. in contrast to us, the most favored nation regime was in effect. The difference is simply monstrous, and you can not notice it only intentionally. Well, yes this is your feature, not surprising.
        1. Amfitsion
          Amfitsion 28 December 2013 21: 10
          0
          The dynamics of the Soviet-American trade balance from 1929 to 1938 in the studio. On the line of Amtorg and all the rest. And how much will the USSR owe to American companies under contracts. And so an empty chatter is not interesting, thanks.
          1. family tree
            family tree 28 December 2013 21: 31
            +1
            "Who created the entire Soviet industry from scratch in the early 30s? The answer is simple, American capital"

            Your words? And prove to you request
            1. Amfitsion
              Amfitsion 28 December 2013 21: 41
              +1
              Why prove the facts to everyone known and not needing proof?

              http://users.livejournal.com/_devol_/379339.html

              Here, interesting:
              http://samlib.ru/b/borisow_s_s/sssrkakproekttupyhpindosofikljatyhburzhuinow.shtm
              l

              http://nnm.me/blogs/jkar/industrializaciya_pyatiletki_i_ssha/

              http://forum.time-impressions.ru/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=385

              This is only from the first page of a Google request
              1. poquello
                poquello 28 December 2013 22: 00
                +2
                Quote: Amphitious
                Why prove the facts to everyone known and not needing proof?

                http://users.livejournal.com/_devol_/379339.html


                I don’t need to give such links to me as a plumber Uncle Vasya will write better, maybe the authority of Uncle Vasya will be rightly under a big question.
                1. family tree
                  family tree 28 December 2013 22: 37
                  +4
                  Quote: poquello
                  I don’t need to give such links to me as a plumber Uncle Vasya will write better, maybe the authority of Uncle Vasya will be rightly under a big question.

                  And I, damn it, read everything, run. Of particular interest is the Schmeisser team, which made a Kalashnikov assault rifle from Izhevsk ... in Kovrov. I don’t understand, that a gynecologist can paste wallpaper in an apartment through a keyhole, but so, for a thousand miles, telepathy and telekinesis, it’s not otherwise. what
                  But I didn’t find evidence, and well, whoever needs them, since the facts do not need them. request
          2. smile
            smile 28 December 2013 22: 28
            0
            Amfitsion
            Are you ... look, what a lively voice we got through ... you’re so demanding a pocket money from your mother .... You’ll manage yourself to prove that I’m wrong, you’re tired of me ... if you didn’t lie and didn’t dodge, it would be interesting to argue with you - and I would have climbed over the dynamics, and so - go, prove that Hopkins, Roosevelt and Stenniul lied to you, saying that investing in a land lease paid off and paid dividends ...
            The quotations I have quoted were laid out by me much earlier than your comments and completely and unconditionally refute you ... - therefore, first refute them, prove the lies of the first persons of the anti-Hitler coalition or go through the woods .... where to go .... I hope it is clear ...: )))
            Go ahead, dawn to meet! :)))
            1. Amfitsion
              Amfitsion 28 December 2013 23: 09
              0
              Yes, yes, yes, and Speer to help you, as everyone had the opportunity to see. The demagogue and the dummy of pure water.
              Nothing personal, just in fact. Good evening to you.
              1. smile
                smile 29 December 2013 01: 04
                +1
                Amfitsion
                Dear, you are the smartest and most beautiful in the world, I'm not going to convince you of this ... but the fact that you are mistaken or pull quotes out of context, or are not able to evaluate the text ... no - you can do without it , you are just a conscious liar ... in your language - "as everyone managed to make sure" ... Good night. :)))
      2. 11111mail.ru
        11111mail.ru 28 December 2013 21: 32
        +2
        Quote: Amphitious
        "Who created the entire Soviet industry from scratch in the early 30s? The answer is simple, American capital"

        You cannot give birth to such thinking with a big mind, only with a big hangover. Unlike Nazi Germany, the USSR did not receive any loans from the United States, equipment supplies from USA to the USSR were paid in gold. The labor of American engineers and technicians was well paid for by the USSR.
  • Watchman
    Watchman 28 December 2013 20: 07
    +3
    The Americans certainly helped, but they are not entitled to call themselves savior of the world.
  • Prometey
    Prometey 28 December 2013 20: 42
    0
    Now there are two extremes - the first - belittles the importance of the Allies in the defeat of Germany, the second - belittles the role of the USSR.
    Naturally, the Red Army, by the opening of the second front, had already crushed a significant part of the Wehrmacht forces, but Germany's resources were not exhausted. In 1944, its industry and its satellites began to operate at full capacity. New models of weapons were being developed that the dilapidated Soviet industry had never even dreamed of - jet planes, rocket technology, night vision sights appeared on tanks, and a uranium project was being developed. My personal opinion - the opening of a second front was very welcome. The Yankees and the British should pay tribute to them, with their brutal airstrikes they destroyed the main industrial potential of Germany, not allowing, perhaps, a modernized military machine to appear. Without the help of the Allies, the military losses of the USSR would have been much higher.
    1. smile
      smile 28 December 2013 20: 55
      +3
      Prometey
      Read Scheer's memoirs and his testimony at the Nuremberg Tribunal - he proved that the bombing of the allies of the cities as a whole caused insignificant damage to the industrial potential of Germany. And he was very surprised. :))) Including the labor force involved in the industrial enterprises of the Reich - so that they actually in vain destroyed millions of civilians in Germany.
      Scheer’s words are confirmed by the dynamics of the release of arms and military equipment by the Germans.

      By the way, it’s interesting to read Sheer in any case, I recommend that he gives a lot of numbers and other interesting information.
      1. Amfitsion
        Amfitsion 28 December 2013 21: 23
        +2
        Lies, as usual from you. Here is what Speer writes:
        "On May 12, 1944, the enemy finally won in the field of military production. Prior to this, we were able, despite significant losses in armaments, to satisfy the needs of the Wehrmacht in general. After the raid of 935 bombers from the 8th American air fleet at the plants for the production of artificial fuel in the central and eastern parts of Germany, a completely new period of air war began; he marked the beginning of the complete collapse of German war industry"
        Minor damage? So what for did the Germans produce only anti-aircraft guns of the caliber of super expensive and complex 88-128 mm? One 88-mm FLAC cost as much as 3 RaK-40.
        The 88-mm anti-aircraft shells alone produced more than 75 mm field artillery shells for the entire war.
        Well, let’s give Speer his word again:
        " "The most tangible damage was caused to Germany by forced defensive measures; the barrels of ten thousand heavy anti-aircraft guns in the territory of the Reich were directed into the sky, although they could have been transferred to Russia and used to fire at tanks and other ground targets. If not for the active actions of the Allied aviation against Germany - a kind of second front - our anti-tank artillery would have received much more ammunition. In addition, hundreds of thousands of young soldiers were thrown to repel its attacks. A third of the optical industry manufactured sights for anti-aircraft Therefore, despite the high level of development of these branches of German industry, the armies of the Western Allies were much better equipped with modern instruments than our front-line units. "
        1. Amfitsion
          Amfitsion 28 December 2013 21: 46
          0
          24 anti-aircraft guns, forgot to enter.
        2. smile
          smile 29 December 2013 00: 06
          +2
          Amfitsion
          For the entire period of World War 2, the Anglo-Saxons carried out only three operations of strategic importance:

          in May 1943, British aviation destroyed 2 dams on Mön and Eder ... the truth was surprisingly. the same Speer, not finishing the job.
          In May, 44 raids on synthetic gas plants
          In February, raids on aircraft factories

          In all cases, the decline in output was not long-lasting and quickly recovered, with the exception of gasoline.
          In general, it is surprising why, until the spring of 1944, the German chemical industry practically did not get hit, supplying the Wehrmacht with artificial liquid fuel, oils, synthetic rubber, and explosives. As a result, Germany was able in 1943 to increase in comparison with 1938 the production of artificial liquid fuel by 256%, gunpowder and explosives - by 333%, synthetic rubber - by 2240%!
          Read more: http://vpk-news.ru/articles/4414

          Mass attacks on cities began in the year 42, and they were the main objectives of the entire war.
          Churchill assessed the effectiveness of the raids: "Although we gradually achieved the accuracy we needed so much to hit at night, the military industry of Germany and the moral strength of the resistance of its civilian population by the 1942 bombing were not broken."
          Are you talking about anti-aircraft guns? Well ... in March 1944, British Secretary of War J. Grigg, introducing the draft army budget to Parliament, said: “I take the liberty of saying that as many heavy bombers are being manufactured alone, as many workers are employed as are carrying out the entire army’s plan” .
          Do not you see the difference in spending half the efforts of the whole country and additional production FOR? By the way, do you remember where the lion's share FOR Germany was produced? :)))
          And the number of guns you cited is really insignificant in comparison with the costs and production of other equipment for the needs of the war. Now, if Germany spent half of the country's annual budget on them, then you would be right, and so ... some cheap cries :)))
          British raids could not break the spirit of resistance of the population, and the American raids decisively reduce the output of German military products. All sorts of enterprises were dispersed, and strategically important factories hidden underground. In February, 1944 of the year for several days, half of the aircraft plants in Germany were subjected to air raids. Some were razed to the ground, but very quickly production was restored, and factory equipment was moved to other areas. The release of aircraft continuously increased and reached its maximum in the summer of the 1944.


          Despite Speer's cry and obligatory curtsies towards the Allies, it is worth reading it and looking at the figures given, rather than tearing quotes out of context ... although what I want from you, you can’t survive otherwise ... :)))

          Where is your incrimination in the lies of Churchill, Stennius and Hopkins?
          1. Amfitsion
            Amfitsion 29 December 2013 00: 37
            -1
            ---- In May 1943, British aviation destroyed 2 dams on Mön and Eder ... the truth was surprisingly. the same Speer, not finishing the job.
            In May, 44 raids on synthetic gas plants
            In February, raids on aircraft factories ------

            http://www.battlefield.ru/allies-vs-germany-airwar.html

            ---- Do you not see the difference in spending half the efforts of the whole country and additional production FOR?
            Good. Do you want about the costs? let's. The production of submarines to the German military-industrial complex cost more in terms of resource costs than all tanks, self-propelled guns, armored personnel carriers. truck and truck combined for the whole war. The largest engineering giants of the Germans were engaged in the construction of boats, and not armored vehicles at all. 95% of the boats were carried by the Allies. Next. Aircraft manufacturing cost Germany twice as much as all armored vehicles and boats combined. 70% of the aircraft were carried by the Allies. So what about resource costs?

            ---- Where is your incrimination in the lies of Churchill, Stennius and Hopkins? -----
            Quotes in English from the original, please. Then we'll talk. Moreover, it was in the light that "vile s profited from the suffering of others at the expense of LL". The fact that LL is just good for the United States as a "thing in itself" I do not see any sense in discussing because of self-evidence. For otherwise he would not have been accepted.
            1. smile
              smile 29 December 2013 02: 43
              0
              Amphitheater
              Until you begin to refute everything that was written by me at least before you (and you were trampled to the smithereens and without my participation, and you know that), and without ridiculous references, where below there are supposedly reliable information about the work of Hugo Schmeisser in the field of creating a Kalashnikov assault rifle, I don’t move a finger. And I’m not going to read such rubbish anymore ...
              Do not take the argument aside and do not stoke it in the links and reasoning, I will not conduct it anymore - laziness ... :)))
              So, where is the refutation of quotes from Stennius, Churchill, Hopkins, Roosevelt, Sison that Lend-Lease not only paid off, but also brought dividends in every sense.
              Let's. prove it. that the above persons are liars and sold to the Communists ... but until now I’m not even going to read your rubbish - enough already, you are not worthy of the time spent on you ... :)))
              By the way, I ask this once every fifth ... :)))
              Go for it .... :)))
              1. Amfitsion
                Amfitsion 29 December 2013 02: 56
                -2
                Yes, I, in fact, do not care about your opinion, you are a complete zero as an opponent, here, in fact, there is no question as such. Not even zero is a negative value. One of your rampant booths is indicative only in this thread; fairground square. Actually, I’m not writing for you, but for more or less adequate people. Trampled, yes. Clowns - they are such clowns ... Everything, I do not intend to spend my money on you from now on. To ignore the cave troll.
    2. bairat
      bairat 28 December 2013 21: 20
      +1
      I hope they do not take me to the extreme of belittling the role of the USSR? I'm just trying to look at history objectively. In our history there was no other such case of assistance from the outside, no enslaving conditions from the Americans. Roosevelt’s insightfulness, which dragged through the opposing congress the Lend-Lease Act in general, and its relation to the USSR in particular, must be recognized. There was a bright period in our history, why deny it?
    3. typhoon7
      typhoon7 28 December 2013 21: 20
      +1
      If they would have pulled a little with the opening of the second front, then the whole of Europe with all its technologies and capacities would be the Soviet Union. And so, the most interesting part went to amers, who managed to grab their piece of the pie. As for the losses, it’s not true. By the end of the war, the Union had accumulated such combat experience that the West did not even dream of. Why do you think they were storing atomic bombs? Because if they went against the Union with conventional weapons, this would be tantamount to suicide for them, they understood this well and they still have this memory.
      1. bairat
        bairat 28 December 2013 22: 29
        -2
        Quote: typhoon7
        If they still pulled a little with the opening of a second front, then

        And how much did the USSR pull with the opening of the first front? In the 39th, no one interfered with rushing into the furnace of World War II. Each country has its own interests; there were no specific obligations regarding the opening of the second front.
        Quote: typhoon7
        As for the losses, it’s not true. By the end of the war, the Union had accumulated such combat experience that the West did not even dream of.

        There was experience, only there was no one to fight. Ended up men of military age, fought and treated front-line soldiers, any rabble from liberated territories such as Bandera and yesterday's policemen, well, young people whose age is right. Another war we could not pull.
        1. typhoon7
          typhoon7 28 December 2013 22: 51
          -2
          What are you talking about? There was a rearmament of the army, it would be crazy to get involved at this time in some sort of major adventure. At the expense of losses. He’s fighting experience and fighting experience that they’re fighting not with numbers but with skill. After Germany, the Union managed to kick its ass also in Japan, and it broke the Zhukov amers a little, just Stalin cooled its ardor. And do not dare to call the Victorious Army a rabble.
          1. Aaron Zawi
            Aaron Zawi 28 December 2013 23: 15
            +2
            Quote: typhoon7
            What are you talking about? There was a rearmament of the army, it would be crazy to get involved at this time in some sort of major adventure.

            and you never wondered what the United States Army was like in December 1941, that is, at the time the US entered the war. By the way, they first entered the war with Japan, and only then with Germany and Italy. And the first US troops transferred to strengthen the Front Front, and not at all to the Atlantic.
        2. family tree
          family tree 28 December 2013 23: 05
          +4
          Quote: bairat
          There was experience, only there was no one to fight.

          The number of the Red Army in May 1945: 11 million 300 thousand people. Mostly shelled. All-Winners. Full pumping with his trophy and Lend-Lease weapons. Plus, Poland, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Czechoslovakia, and everything was normal with a birth rate of 27-28, especially since from 1927, abortion was allowed only for medical reasons.
        3. stalkerwalker
          stalkerwalker 28 December 2013 23: 58
          +5
          Quote: bairat
          And how much did the USSR pull with the opening of the first front? In the 39th, no one interfered with rushing into the furnace of World War II.

          What Rezuna read?
          1. blizart
            blizart 30 December 2013 14: 32
            +3
            Suvorov is not yet A.V. which is their ilk. The emanators of them must be directly to Spain 36
        4. poquello
          poquello 29 December 2013 00: 10
          +3
          Quote: bairat

          There was experience, only there was no one to fight. Ended up men of military age, fought and treated front-line soldiers, any rabble from liberated territories such as Bandera and yesterday's policemen, well, young people whose age is right. Another war we could not pull.

          Oh well
        5. The comment was deleted.
  • Igarr
    Igarr 28 December 2013 21: 01
    +6
    Hello everyone....
    Again .... "old wounds do not give peace .."
    Well, well .... here you are, gentlemen ..http: //www.vokrugsveta.ru/vs/article/406/ ..
    ..
    Loss in numbers
    In Germany, bombing killed, according to various estimates, from 300 thousand to 1,5 million civilians. In France - 59 thousand dead and wounded, mainly from Allied raids, in England - 60,5 thousand, including victims from the actions of missiles "Fau".
    The list of cities in which the area of ​​destruction was 50% and more of the total area of ​​buildings (oddly enough, only 40% fell on Dresden):
    50% - Ludwigshafen, Worms
    51% - Bremen, Hannover, Nuremberg, Remscheid, Bochum
    52% - Essen, Darmstadt
    53% - Cochem
    54% - Hamburg, Mainz
    55% - Neckarsulm, Zoest
    56% - Aachen, Münster, Heilbronn
    60% - Erkelenz
    63% - Wilhelmshaven, Koblenz
    64% - Bingerbrück, Cologne, Pforzheim
    65% - Dortmund
    66% - Crailsheim
    67% - Gisen
    68% - Hanau, Kassel
    69% - Duren
    70% - Altenkirchen, Bruchsal
    72% - Geilenkirchen
    74% - Donauworth
    75% - Remagen, Würzburg
    78% - Emden
    80% - Prüm, Wesel
    85% - Xanten, Zulpich
    91% - Emmerich
    97% - Julich
    The total volume of debris was 400 million cubic meters. 495 architectural monuments were completely destroyed, 620 was damaged so much that their restoration was either impossible or doubtful.
    Mikhail Maximov
    .
    The Americans are good guys ... and the Angles ....
    why am I neither .... nor won ... ???
    ...
    Please note ... Kaliningrad (Koenigsberg) is not ... Berlin is not, Leipzig is not .. Magdeburg is not ..
    There are no cities that were in the zone of responsibility of the Russian army, the Red Army of the Soviet Union.
    1. Ruslan67
      Ruslan67 28 December 2013 21: 05
      +6
      Well, in principle, one could restrict oneself to the Dresden Gallery what It is enough to send those who ordered to Nuremberg along with the rest
    2. Mahdi
      Mahdi 28 December 2013 23: 04
      +1
      cowardly rangers)))) they needed a rimbaud, sorry he is Italian)))
    3. kenig1
      kenig1 29 December 2013 08: 18
      +1
      Koenigsberg was destroyed by 70% and guess who bombed? Correctly Americans with the British.
  • MsRedMaster
    MsRedMaster 28 December 2013 21: 21
    +5
    I absolutely agree with smile, we paid everything to the last penny for each car and can of stew brought to us by Lend-Lease!
    They are proud of the invasion of France!
    At least once, such an armada as the USSR faced was opposed to the Americans, British and all allies.
    The invasion of American and British troops into Northern France, which began on June 6, 1944, in the West is given the significance of a turning point during the Second World War.

    But they completely forget about Operation Bagration. And what would happen to them if they were met not by half a million, but by a million Germans (I don’t want to take exact data if anyone needs to find it, I will not even give the composition of ground equipment and aviation?)
    I want to say one thing: it’s good to sit across the ocean and know that not a single enemy can reach you. Talk about great victories and reap financial gain!
  • voliador
    voliador 28 December 2013 21: 44
    +1
    Well, we now know that they are exceptional. And who, if not exceptional, could have won the war ?! laughing
  • ed65b
    ed65b 28 December 2013 21: 53
    +3
    Were there myths? were, are and will be. However, there is only one outcome and it cannot be changed. The Soviet soldier and the USSR took Berlin and erected the banner of victory over the Reichstag, thus ending the most terrible war in the history of mankind. And he stopped the suffering of many nations, and he generally saved the Jews from extermination as a species.
    Well, we make and write history ourselves, and while we will remember it, even from the words of our grandfathers and pass it on to our children and grandchildren, we won’t rewrite the great story about the great war and the deed of the great people of the USSR to anyone.
  • Lelek
    Lelek 28 December 2013 22: 00
    +5
    Gallant, well-fed guys at the end of the war land on the mainland, get a snot, they beg Stalin to step up on the eastern front, and at the very end they ask not to advance for two days to meet victoriously on the Oder. Bravo, Yankees! bully
  • serezhafili
    serezhafili 28 December 2013 23: 33
    +1
    Wait!!! To begin with, the question is - what do you know about Guadalcanal, Saipan, the battle in Leyte Bay, Ivotzima? Yes, nothing ... So the Americans do not know anything about the Kursk Bulge, Leningrad, Kiev and our other victories. And not because nothing happened there, but because both ours and their POPAGANDA presented it this way ... But after all, now is the end of 2013! Let’s finally decide once and for all that in the Second World War it was not the Russians and Americans who won but the Anti-Hitler coalition !!! Speak little weapons to us delivered? But directly weapons accounted for only a small percentage of all deliveries. The bulk are metals, machine tools, fuel, explosives, and products. Who will count how many T-34s and IL-2s have been made on these machines ?! And let's spit on propaganda ... We won TOGETHER!
    1. samoletil18
      samoletil18 28 December 2013 23: 44
      +3
      Quote: serezhafili
      Wait!!! To begin with, the question is - what do you know about Guadalcanal, Saipan, the battle in Leyte Bay, Ivotzima? Yes, nothing ... So the Americans do not know anything about the Kursk Bulge, Leningrad, Kiev and our other victories. And not because nothing happened there, but because both ours and their POPAGANDA presented it this way ... But after all, now is the end of 2013! Let’s finally decide once and for all that in the Second World War it was not the Russians and Americans who won but the Anti-Hitler coalition !!! Speak little weapons to us delivered? But directly weapons accounted for only a small percentage of all deliveries. The bulk are metals, machine tools, fuel, explosives, and products. Who will count how many T-34s and IL-2s have been made on these machines ?! And let's spit on propaganda ... We won TOGETHER!

      How so! This is with us and they don’t know about Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk, Berlin. And they know about Iwo Jima, the English Channel, Pere Harbor. The lack of ideology in the country robs us of our victory. America and Germany supplied a lot of things - in a quiet, united self-interest for the sake of.
    2. svp67
      svp67 29 December 2013 00: 24
      +1
      Quote: serezhafili
      Never mind...

      Who said ...? We know, for example, about the Correchidor fortress ... Do they know about Brest?
      1. serezhafili
        serezhafili 29 December 2013 17: 34
        -1
        What about Brest? Which is ours or the one in France? The one that in France the Americans will remember forever! Heroism, he is heroism everywhere ... Do you know about him?
    3. Setrac
      Setrac 29 December 2013 00: 26
      +2
      Quote: serezhafili
      We won TOGETHER!

      Firstly, the potential of Japan and Germany with the satellites are not comparable, Japan loses to Germany at times and equating a victory over Japan with a victory over the Third Reich is ridiculous. Yes, the Americans fought in the Pacific, but compared to the events in Europe, these are all trifles.
      1. Amfitsion
        Amfitsion 29 December 2013 00: 40
        +1
        Yes? Maybe the fleet of the japs ​​was not comparable with the German? No doubt, the Germans are much stronger economically. But Japan was blamed by the allies almost alone, while the USSR Germany did not.
      2. serezhafili
        serezhafili 29 December 2013 17: 46
        0
        The theater of operations is ten times larger than in Europe, all operations are amphibious, communications are many thousands of kilometers away and an adversary who does not surrender is a trifle ?!
    4. xan
      xan 29 December 2013 21: 06
      +2
      Quote: serezhafili
      Wait!!! To begin with, the question is - what do you know about Guadalcanal, Saipan, the battle in Leyte Bay, Ivotzima? Yes, nothing ... So the Americans do not know anything about the Kursk Bulge, Leningrad, Kiev and our other victories.

      In order to compare, you first need to inflate American battles to the level of ours, although there is not even enough of their propaganda there - they concentrated on the landing in Normandy
      It’s not funny for yourself?
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 29 December 2013 22: 50
        0
        Quote: xan
        In order to compare, you first need to inflate American battles to the level of ours, although there is not even enough of their propaganda there - they concentrated on the landing in Normandy
        It’s not funny for yourself?

        Because the landing in Normandy is the largest US operation in World War II, there was nothing like it in the Pacific Ocean.