Military Review

Risks of the Ukrainian defense industry

18
Risks of the Ukrainian defense industry

The recent alarming events in the Russian-Ukrainian relations, connected with the toughening of the conditions for inspection of goods on the Russian-Ukrainian border, were in fact a kind of rehearsal of the logical consequences of signing an agreement with the European Union on the associated membership of Ukraine. It is necessary to understand that such actions of the Russian side are not any ultimatum. This is only a demonstration of the inevitable protective measures of our country. On a small and short-term example, the Russian authorities showed the Ukrainian side the rules and conditions, which take into account the customs interaction of the Russian Federation with the countries of Europe. Naturally, there were no special measures aimed exclusively against Ukraine. And it is absolutely clear that Russia in no way intends to break the established economic ties with Ukraine. Only the conditions for mutual trade between countries will change.


However, even these actions, carried out by the Russian leadership in the framework of international agreements and principles of international relations, most vividly demonstrated to the authorities of Ukraine the intentions of the Eastern partner. And judging by the reaction of Kiev, this measure has outraged the political and economic circles of Ukraine, who were apparently counting on the toothlessness of the Russian authorities. But hopes were not justified ... And this is understandable, because, in fact, the leadership of Ukraine should ponder over the possible consequences of its decision regarding the choice of a future integration path.

REDUCTION OF VOLUME VOLUME

The first negative impact in the event that Ukraine implements the process of joining the associate members of the EU will experience heavy industry and high-tech production. And first of all - the military-industrial complex of Ukraine. In addition to the natural increase in the price of energy carriers supplied by the Russian Federation, most contracts for the mutual supply of components in the field of military-technical cooperation will be reviewed. It is logical that such a prospect is extremely undesirable for both Ukraine and Russia. However, the Russian side will be able to get out of this situation with minimal losses by replacing the supply of Ukrainian components with agreements with other partners in the international arms market. A similar process has already been established in several of the most important areas of Russian defense production, including aviation sphere. So, starting from 2010-2012, the Russian company Russian Helicopters OJSC reduced the purchase volume of products of Motor Sich, the Ukrainian leader in engine manufacturing, to 30%, replacing the export of Ukrainian components with the products of Russian and several Western companies.

There are enough examples of well-established cooperation of the Russian Federation with the countries of Europe, Asia and America in the field of defense. What can not be said about Ukraine, whose enterprises supply most of the components to Russian enterprises of the military-industrial complex. As for the search for other partners for the supply of components, the existing agreements with Asian countries are episodic, beneficial primarily to the eastern partners of Ukraine, who prefer to purchase small lots of OPK products for further study and production of similar technologies in their own factories.

Significant financial losses will also be felt by those enterprises, some of which are already selling jointly manufactured defense products with Russian enterprises, while another part is currently at the stage of signing contracts and establishing integration mechanisms. First of all, this concerns the largest Ukrainian aircraft manufacturing enterprise, Antonov State Enterprise, which has a large number of contracts not only for the production of various types of aircraft for Russian customers, but also provides maintenance and modernization work on almost the entire An fleet of aircraft operated in Russia. In addition, the joint Russian-Ukrainian production of the An-70 operational-tactical and military transport aircraft, which has no analogues in the world, is currently continuing, albeit with some disruptions, as well as attempts are being made to create on the basis of the Antonov state enterprise and JSC Aviakor Aviation Plant ”joint venture with the Russian side for the production of An-140 aircraft In the case of the implementation of Ukraine’s plans to join the EU’s associate members, all undertakings of the Antonov State Enterprise, capable of bringing huge financial contributions to the Ukrainian budget, will be in jeopardy.

Significant financial losses will be felt by another Ukrainian enterprise in the aerospace industry. This is SE "Production Association" South Machine-Building Plant "named after A.M. Makarov, which produces a wide range of products of the aerospace industry, including launch vehicles and components for them. At the moment, Ukrainian and Russian enterprises are supporting the joint Kosmotras program, within which Russian-Ukrainian launches are being made. The main hopes for the development of this enterprise are placed on the Dnepr launch vehicle, which is almost completely produced by the aforementioned GP Yuzhmash on the basis of the PC-20 intercontinental ballistic missiles to be eliminated. For the Dnepropetrovsk-based enterprise, support for this area and participation in the Kosmotras program is very significant in terms of financial benefits. But this direction also risks being frozen for the reasons mentioned above.

And all this is only a small part of the financial losses of the Ukrainian defense industry complex, which may entail a step towards European integration and reciprocal objective steps from the Russian side.

FROM PARTNERS TO COMPETITORS

The new conditions of the economic policy of the two countries, implying a reduction in mutual integration within the framework of the PTS, will certainly entail increased competition in the global arms market. At present, the existing competition plays a not so significant role, given the undoubted financial benefits that both Russia and Ukraine receive from actually maintaining the old cooperative ties established during the active development of the defense industry of the Soviet Union, which contribute to significant financial benefits from co-production products. The reduction in the turnover will lead to a significant reduction in the financial benefits from the military-technical cooperation for both Russia and Ukraine.

In the new conditions, the current partners will be forced to offer the same weapons markets products that are similar in their tactical and technical characteristics, based on one technological base. As a result, the undoubted advantages will be obtained by the products of that state, which is capable of producing better products in less time and in full. And in this regard, Russian state-owned enterprises, adapted to the harsh conditions of competition in the global market, will receive undoubted benefits that will result in natural financial losses for Ukrainian enterprises. It is enough to look at the catastrophic state of the largest enterprises of the military-industrial complex of Ukraine in order to come to a logical conclusion: in the current state, they will not be able to compete with the Russian defense-industry enterprises without powerful financial injections.

What can I say, if the Kharkov Transport Engineering Plant named after V.A. Malysheva, the largest tank the plant in Europe is not able to fully and within the established time frame to fulfill the two largest contracts for the past decade and a half totaling $ 707 million. This is a contract for the supply of a batch of BTR-4E to Iraq in the amount of 420 samples, signed in 2009, and the contract for the supply of 49 T-84 Oplot tanks to Thailand, signed in 2012. According to news agencies, Iraq has already refused to accept the next batch of BTR-4E due to the significant amount of marriage that was identified during the technical acceptance by Iraqi specialists. As for the Thai contract, according to Ukrainian media, the serial production of the T-84 Oplot tanks was launched recently and only a few samples of these products have been produced to date.

The possible signing of an association agreement with the EU will only exacerbate the already deplorable situation of many Ukrainian enterprises, including the Kharkov factory mentioned above, which, since the end of 2012, has been in bankruptcy. Considering that the main products of the plant largely depend on the supply of components produced by Russian enterprises. Tightening the conditions of trade, as well as competition in the arms market, which will inevitably follow, can lead to disruptions or even to a complete cessation of deliveries of Russian components. And this, in turn, will lead, even if not to a complete halt in production, but only to a partial one, and yet the fulfillment of the main export obligations on the part of Ukraine risks to be undermined.

The shipbuilding enterprises of Ukraine are in a similar position. Under the condition of tightening commodity turnover and increasing competition between Russia and Ukraine, Ukrainian shipyards will not be able to provide Ukrspetsexport inquiries with the necessary production volume, given that the SE “Shipbuilding Yard im. The Communist 61 "in Nikolaev at the moment is setting up production not at all of frigates, cruisers and aircraft carriers, but of Dozor-B armored cars. At the same time, OJSC “Theodosia Shipbuilding Company“ More ”, completing the construction of the second air-cushion landing craft of the 958 project for the Chinese Navy, cannot hope for the subsequent workload of the enterprise. The reason is simple: under the terms of the contract with China, the third and fourth ships will be built by Chinese enterprises with the involvement of Ukrainian specialists and the transfer of all technical documentation to the Chinese side.

And this state of affairs prevails in almost all areas of the military-industrial complex of Ukraine, the only exception being the Antonov State Enterprise and those enterprises that provide the production volume of this company. Changes in the terms of trade between Russia and Ukraine will not significantly affect the production volumes of these enterprises. But a possible change in the customs policy of Russia in relation to Ukrainian goods is not the main problem of the Antonov state enterprise.

IN THE CONDITIONS OF THE EUROPEAN MARKET

Entry into the European market will be a real test for Ukrainian enterprises, which currently have prospects for the development and increase of production volumes. To err in this respect means to lose the situation and lose what has been accumulated over the years of hard work. New customs conditions for Ukraine, duties, unified with the standards of the European Union, will face the Ukrainian defense enterprises and enterprises of heavy engineering in a tough competition with the most powerful European companies. The first and, perhaps, the strongest negative impact will be felt by the state enterprise Antonov itself. The products of this company are competitive with respect to the products of such companies as Airbus SAS, British Aerospace, etc. However, the old European players are unlikely to support a promising competitor, as a result of which the products of the Antonov state enterprise cannot compete on the European market in terms of price indicators .

The same applies to other enterprises of the defense industry of Ukraine. Unable to ensure the required volume and quality of production, enterprises will be an unnecessary burden for the European economy, whose leaders are unlikely to make significant financial investments in the heavy science-intensive production of Ukraine. The integration of the capacities of these enterprises into the European heavy engineering is also a financially costly enterprise, since it implies a transition from Soviet technological standards to European ones. And this includes the whole complex of production, starting from the marking of steel and alloys and ending with the release of final products.

As a result, we get a not so optimistic picture regarding the prospects for the Ukrainian economy in general and the enterprises of the military-industrial complex in particular. The most logical outcome of Ukraine’s integration into European political and economic structures and the establishment of new conditions for trade with Russia as an objective response to such steps will be a significant reduction in production volumes. This means a decrease in the number of jobs, a decrease in the level of wages and, as a logical result, negative consequences for the social sphere of the Ukrainian state.
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  1. Tatarus
    Tatarus 28 September 2013 08: 58
    43
    Yes, Ukraine is already good at convincing. Made a choice? FREE. She wants to bend herself; she wants to be part of Europe.
    1. Tony tomahawk
      Tony tomahawk 28 September 2013 15: 21
      24
      Ukraine does not want it, but the bastards in the Rada do not ask her about it, they paid money for another.
      1. Tatarus
        Tatarus 28 September 2013 17: 23
        +6
        Quote: Tony Tomahawk
        Ukraine does not want it, but the bastards in the Rada do not ask her about it, they paid money for another.


        These pads are also Ukraine. Is not it so? You have chosen them, you are responsible for them. And if they threw you, then these are your problems. UNDERSTAND, do mercy ... and feat.
        1. Tony tomahawk
          Tony tomahawk 29 September 2013 12: 01
          +3
          The only one we chose was the President, but was there a choice? Of all the candidates, it seemed that he would do the least damage, who knew, you think it would be better if we voted for Yushchenko? Then in the first months of his reign, we would talk about integration with the EU.
          And the deputies - I live in Donetsk, there was not a single election of a deputy, similarly in Kiev, my good friend lives there, says the last elections for deputies were in the early 2000s, and then they were not held. We did not choose the authorities and deputies, as did integration with the EU, so please, no need here.
          1. vjhbc
            vjhbc 29 September 2013 14: 40
            0
            Lee Harvey Oswald = Kavun Taras Khomich or another combination + SVD or "KSVK" (ASVK-Kord), SVN-98, VSSK "Exhaust", V-94, VSS "Vintorez". And solve your problems (no man, no problem)
            Quote: Tony Tomahawk
            The only one we chose was the President, but was there a choice? Of all the candidates, it seemed that he would do the least damage, who knew, you think it would be better if we voted for Yushchenko? Then in the first months of his reign, we would talk about integration with the EU.
            And the deputies - I live in Donetsk, there was not a single election of a deputy, similarly in Kiev, my good friend lives there, says the last elections for deputies were in the early 2000s, and then they were not held. We did not choose the authorities and deputies, as did integration with the EU, so please, no need here.
      2. alone
        alone 28 September 2013 17: 51
        +6
        Quote: Tony Tomahawk
        Ukraine doesn’t want it, but the bastards in the Rada do not ask her about it, they paid money for another


        Allow me to disagree with you. Who chose the parliament, the president? The people of Ukraine. Those Russian deputies and observers followed these elections and declared them democratic. The choice is made, Ukraine decided to go its own way. It’s time to put up with it.
        1. Tony tomahawk
          Tony tomahawk 29 September 2013 12: 06
          +4
          The only one we chose was the President, but was there a choice? Of all the candidates, it seemed that he would do the least damage, who knew, you think it would be better if we voted for Yushchenko? Then in the first months of his reign, we would talk about integration with the EU.
          And the deputies - I live in Donetsk, there was not a single election of a deputy, similarly in Kiev, my good friend lives there, says the last elections for deputies were in the early 2000s, and then they were not held. We did not choose the authorities and deputies, as did integration with the EU, so please, no need here.
          Accept ... You would have reconciled if your country was pulled to the bottom and at the same time spat on the people and their opinions, the so-called opposition did not justify hopes, they are pulling into the EU, there is only one propaganda around - that Ukraine will be in Europe, and Europe in Ukraine, only occasionally the communists drive around the city and call on the loudspeaker to go to rallies in support of the vehicle, there are rallies - they are not covered in the media, but once again we were told about another bl * do- "star" undressed at the resort and show us what Yanukovych has an excellent policy and that he kept all his campaign promises.
          At first, Yanukovych aroused confidence, it seems he doesn’t bite with Russia, well, in the little things, but here he declares this ...
      3. USMC
        USMC 28 September 2013 19: 22
        -7
        Quote: Tony Tomahawk
        Ukraine does not want it, but the bastards in the Rada do not ask her about it, they paid money for another.

        why doesn’t he want? also as he wants !!!
      4. domokl
        domokl 29 September 2013 16: 17
        +3
        Quote: Tony Tomahawk
        Ukraine doesn’t want to, but the bastards in the Rada do not ask about it,

        Ukrainians were completely divorced by Yanukovych and the company. So what the ardent democrats and nationalists could not do was surely do the allegedly pro-Russian regionals. Reproach Ukrainians is stupid. But the choice was made and now everyone has to live in new conditions. Conditions when we are no longer fraternal countries, and competitors. Big expenses are coming, and for Ukraine there are a lot of unexpected things.
        The truth is, the choice is made.
      5. Simon
        Simon 29 September 2013 21: 35
        +1
        Yes, they don’t give a damn about the people when their green pockets are full. yes
    2. Alex Nick
      Alex Nick 30 September 2013 13: 23
      -1
      Oh, Ukraine. Where is it taking you?
  2. Akim
    Akim 28 September 2013 15: 40
    +2
    Does your tongue hurt to suck on such garbage? I can cite as an example another pseudo-analyst's article titled: "TS will cease to exist in 5 years." And who will be easier from this?
    All this is custom or emotional delirium. And competition ... As if now our defense industry is not a competitor.
    1. Avenger711
      Avenger711 28 September 2013 16: 38
      23
      So far, only tantrums in Ukraine, when suddenly they were shown how to trade with EU membership. Russia now will not deter Ukraine from foolishness, but it is clear to show what awaits it, it is obliged, and then do not say that you did not warn.
      1. Akim
        Akim 28 September 2013 16: 48
        +2
        Quote: Avenger711
        when suddenly they were shown how to trade with EU membership.

        I will not argue because it is useless. Each side has its own truth - why waste your nerves on persuasion.
        1. Avenger711
          Avenger711 28 September 2013 20: 53
          +4
          Hitler also had her own truth.
          1. Akim
            Akim 28 September 2013 21: 01
            0
            Quote: Avenger711
            Hitler also had her own truth.

            Stalin has his own, Churchill has his own, etc. Do not exaggerate.
            1. Avenger711
              Avenger711 28 September 2013 21: 43
              +2
              But only one of them turned out to be truer than the others.
              1. Akim
                Akim 28 September 2013 21: 49
                +1
                Quote: Avenger711
                one of them turned out to be truer than the others.

                Who? If you do not read in other languages, this does not mean that like Danila Bagrov, your truth is. This we know who made the main contribution to the victory over fascism. It is not possible to convince English-speaking people like you regarding the Ukrainian military-industrial complex.
              2. cooper
                cooper 29 September 2013 09: 53
                -3
                only we drive European cars, watch Japanese telly.
                1. Akim
                  Akim 29 September 2013 10: 08
                  0
                  Quote: Cooper
                  We watch Japanese telly.

                  I'm looking at Lviv 32 "Electron. True, I barely found it. Neither Fotons nor Topazov can hardly be found on store shelves, but they are.
                  1. cooper
                    cooper 29 September 2013 10: 14
                    -1
                    I by and large, and drive not only European cars but more and more Korean, Chinese, Japanese. But this does not change the essence.
                    1. Akim
                      Akim 29 September 2013 10: 20
                      -1
                      Quote: Cooper
                      and drive not only European cars but more and more Korean, Chinese, Japanese

                      That is yes. The products of the Ukrainian automobile industry are not as good in quality, but already quite priced. Personally, I, for the updated Tavria and its prices. Only who will listen to me.
                      1. cooper
                        cooper 29 September 2013 10: 40
                        -2
                        was when, Nitsche so machine, economical :)))))))
                      2. Felix200970
                        Felix200970 29 September 2013 20: 50
                        +2
                        Quote: Akim
                        Personally, I, for the updated Tavria and its prices.

                        Most likely you drive a European-made car. A person who drives ZAZ products will not say such a thing in a drunken delirium. For the rest, I’ll explain: the place is damned, no matter what they do, it’s still hunchbacked. request
                      3. Akim
                        Akim 29 September 2013 21: 04
                        0
                        Quote: Felix200970
                        Most likely you drive a European-made car. A man who drives ZAZ products is not drunk and will not say

                        In Chinese. Both Tavria and Slavuty were with friends. Nice cars, one gearbox lame.
                      4. Corsair
                        Corsair 29 September 2013 21: 22
                        +2
                        Quote: Akim
                        In Chinese. Both Tavria and Slavuty were with friends. Nice cars, one gearbox lame.

                        Everything in "Tavria" is "lame", especially the quality, not even of the assembly, but of the manufacture of parts and assemblies, and her "backside" rattles like a damned ...

                        All of the above would still be "NOTHING" if the PRICE was reasonable.
                        And so the car, although "slack", is quite economical and drives ...
                        P \ S: Tavriya-nova and Slavuta tried to eliminate a number of flaws, something succeeded, something NO. But the price "soared" request
                      5. Akim
                        Akim 29 September 2013 21: 26
                        0
                        Quote: Corsair
                        Everything in "Tavria" is "lame" especially the quality of not even assembly,

                        Enough of all 95-97 year to die. From the 98 of Tavria they went quite high-quality.
                      6. The comment was deleted.
                      7. Corsair
                        Corsair 29 September 2013 21: 42
                        0
                        Quote: Akim
                        Enough of all 95-97 year to die. From the 98 of Tavria they went quite high-quality.

                        ... and "came" unable to withstand competition, and not least of all in terms of price-consumer properties-quality parameters
                      8. Akim
                        Akim 29 September 2013 21: 56
                        0
                        Quote: Corsair
                        and not least in terms of price-consumer properties-quality parameters

                        When there was a model range of Tavria, the plant in 2006 produced almost a quarter of a million cars. The car is out of date, but rebranding could help. Although you can replace it with a car of the same class and price range.
                      9. Corsair
                        Corsair 29 September 2013 22: 09
                        0
                        Quote: Akim
                        Although it is possible to replace it with a car of the same class and price range

                        The same "Chinese"? Where are our own developments? request
                      10. Akim
                        Akim 29 September 2013 22: 15
                        0
                        Quote: Corsair
                        And where are our own developments

                        The exact same question can be asked about Russian passenger cars.
                      11. Corsair
                        Corsair 29 September 2013 22: 27
                        +1
                        Quote: Akim
                        The exact same question can be asked about Russian passenger cars.

                        Kalina, Grant, Priora - for you not Russian developments?
                        Yes, the breakthrough project "Yo-mobile", the oligarch Prokhorov, "stalled" (I want to believe not for long).
                        But UNLIKE Ukraine, the Russian auto industry is fighting for the place of RUSSIAN SAME BRANDS on the market ...
                      12. Akim
                        Akim 29 September 2013 22: 39
                        +1
                        Quote: Corsair
                        But UNLIKE Ukraine, the Russian auto industry is fighting for the place of RUSSIAN SAME BRANDS on the market ...

                        Yeah, they drove a lot of dough into AvtoVAZ, but they ruined the rest of the domestic brands of cars. UAZ only holds on because of the specifics. Although about the Ukrainian LuAZ, you can also say that he is a kirdyk. And "Kalina" with "Prior" (the top ten was developed in Porsche) cannot be called good cars. I did not hold "Grant" in my hands, but there are also big doubts.
                      13. Corsair
                        Corsair 29 September 2013 23: 02
                        +1
                        Quote: Akim
                        And "Kalina" with "Prior" (the top ten was developed in Porsche) cannot be called good cars. I did not hold "Grant" in my hands, but there are also big doubts.

                        That is why the Ukrainian manufacturer "Bogdan" seized on the production of VAZ 2110 at its facilities.
                        Apparently distraught Ukrainian businessmen do not know what ****** (from your words) this car ...

                        You first "shake" the product, and only then judge about it.

                        And regarding the "vbuhanogo dough" I note that the BIGGEST part of the funds allocated for the support and development of production was PRIVATE and FOREIGN.
                        It will be useful for you to know that VAZ is a member of the group Renault Nisan.
                      14. Akim
                        Akim 29 September 2013 23: 09
                        +1
                        The fact that Bogdan is releasing the top ten is a little pride.
                      15. Corsair
                        Corsair 29 September 2013 23: 15
                        0
                        Quote: Akim
                        The fact that Bogdan is releasing the top ten is a little pride.

                        I will reduce your pride in the fact that in addition to 10, 13, 14, 15, 99 and even 7 are produced ... fellow laughing
                      16. Akim
                        Akim 29 September 2013 23: 18
                        +1
                        Quote: Corsair
                        13th, 14th, 15th are produced,

                        There is no such.
                      17. Corsair
                        Corsair 29 September 2013 23: 24
                        0
                        Quote: Akim
                        There's no such thing

                        On "Bogdan" yes, but it is naive for you to think that he is the ONLY and EXCLUSIVE collector of VAZ models in Ukraine.
                        There are plenty of sheds and garages for this business in Ukraine.
                        http://ua.autoreview.ru/archive/
                      18. Akim
                        Akim 30 September 2013 07: 18
                        0
                        Quote: Corsair
                        There are plenty of sheds and garages for this business in Ukraine.

                        They are familiar in the garage and assembled a Tavria convertible. And on Net there is a photo of the Oka-beach little car, which was demolished in Krymts.
                        Now I don’t know, but before AvtoZAZ collected sevens and the 99th. Muck - terrible If compared with machines of subsequent generations (Kalina, Chance (1,6), Prior) - this is a step back. The timing belt flies after 40 thousand. The rear pillars were changed after 50. Steering rack, box glass, tensioner bearing, front ball, etc. etc.
                        PEOPLE DO NOT TAKE THEM - READ!
                      19. Corsair
                        Corsair 30 September 2013 09: 14
                        -1
                        Quote: Akim
                        Now I don’t know, but before AvtoZAZ collected sevens and 99. Muck is terrible

                        So, Uv.Akim- "DON'T KNOW", in Russian, is not a denial of something.
                        In Ukraine, among other things, there is also the "Kremenchutsky Automobile Warehouse Plant", where it is not possible to "store" ...
                      20. Akim
                        Akim 30 September 2013 09: 28
                        +1
                        Quote: Corsair
                        In Ukraine, among other things, there is also the "Kremenchutskiy Automobile Warehouse Plant", where they do not "store".

                        In our family, Jelly MK and MK cross, build this car assembly. No complaints to them. The first almost 100 thousand already dashed off. The build culture is normal there. But you cannot cook good food from bad foods. (this is about VAZ). The AIS group itself is a bourgeois gumno.
                      21. Corsair
                        Corsair 30 September 2013 11: 17
                        -1
                        Quote: Akim
                        But you cannot cook good food from bad foods. (this is about VAZ).

                        Sweep away the veil!
                        In the yard, far from the beginning of 90x - the beginning of 2000x, when really the quality of the VAZ (the plant itself) was lousy.

                        Now the Renault-Nissan group intends to produce its line of cars on the Lada Kalina platform, which speaks of its CONSTRUCTIONAL QUALITIES.

                        How do you like the model? (The one with the right laughing )

                        At the VAZ, so that you know, they produce in various modifications "Kalina" 1-2 versions, "Grants" "Priors" "Largus", etc.

                        And these models are supplied to Ukraine (I note, they are not "vparyl" by the manufacturer, but are delivered) because they enjoy the confidence of the buyer ...

                        Clickable Image:
                      22. Akim
                        Akim 30 September 2013 11: 46
                        0
                        Don’t remember about Largus. In Ukraine, for about 8 years they have been eating a fetus named Logan MKV. And as for the VAZ chassis for the RN group, they need to beat back the invested money. Moreover, the car will be oriented to South America
                        As for the model, I prefer the one on the left. As for Ukraine. Kalina and Priora are on sale, but the same rubbish as Lanos and Forza. And now VAZ is losing ground. More readily take St. Petersburg Hyundai and KIA and Moscow Logans.
                      23. Corsair
                        Corsair 30 September 2013 12: 01
                        -1
                        Quote: Akim
                        Don’t remember about Largus.

                        It’s not my fault that you somehow read the comments.
                        It has already been mentioned that the VAZ is a component of the Renault-Nissan group and it is not surprising that the Renault model is on the assembly line.

                        And in the context of "winning money" ... Western production workers and financiers sensitively smell the conjuncture, the "smell" of profit, and WILL NOT turn to an unprofitable project ...
                        And if you think that the South American "people" will "hawala shit, then this opinion is wrong.
                      24. Akim
                        Akim 30 September 2013 12: 31
                        +1
                        Quote: Corsair
                        that the VAZ is a component of the Renault-Nissan group and it is surprising that the Renault model is on the assembly line.

                        Do you remember how the dispute began? That there are no Ukrainian developments in cars. So we returned to the circle. Thank God that RN will help AvtoVAZ and make a single platform for the "state employee". Only do not blame Ukrainian enterprises for the same. Now is the period of globalization and many developments have one basis.
                      25. ATATA
                        ATATA 30 September 2013 16: 21
                        0
                        Quote: Akim
                        Only Ukrainian enterprises do not blame the same. Now the period of globalization and many developments have one basis.

                        Yes, no one reproaches the same!
                        How many cars does Ukraine produce and how many RF per capita?
                        How much m2 of housing for rent in Ukraine and how much in Russia per capita. And everything will become clear.
                      26. Akim
                        Akim 30 September 2013 18: 56
                        0
                        Quote: ATATA
                        How many cars does Ukraine produce and how many RF per capita?

                        Few produce - what to say. But Russia set up customs barriers (in the form of a recycling fee) for cars a year ago. And inside the country such nafig nafig is not needed but for that kind of money. Now the factories have massively switched to the production of Chinese cars (assembly, welding, painting + engine. Apparently oriented to export to Europe. We'll see.
                        As for the quadrature - more than 10 million. But where is they building? In big cities. In depressive cities and so many empty apartments.
                      27. ATATA
                        ATATA 2 October 2013 17: 49
                        +1
                        Quote: Akim
                        Few produce - what to say.

                        Akim, who is to blame for this, Russia?
                        If so, what is your independence worth?
                        The world, this is a harsh thing, there is no place for romance and naivety. hi
                      28. Akim
                        Akim 3 October 2013 06: 11
                        0
                        Quote: ATATA
                        Akim, who is to blame for this, Russia?

                        In no case. Our bourgeoisie who produce such cars are to blame. After all, Russia has not banned their import. It’s just because of the utilization fee that they have become a ton of bucks more expensive, and Vasadze and the company do not want ZAZ to become popular again. I am very critical of the Ukrainian auto industry. Even more than to the Russian one.
                2. Corsair
                  Corsair 1 October 2013 00: 18
                  -1
                  Quote: Akim
                  Now the period of globalization and many developments have one basis.

                  ON WHAT BASIS is developed and at least one more or less UKRAINIAN car model (Vidu-Kalos-Aveo and Lanos (An * s) -Sens (Ce * s)) do not mention ...
                3. Akim
                  Akim 1 October 2013 05: 52
                  0
                  Quote: Corsair
                  ON WHAT BASIS is developed and at least one more or less UKRAINIAN car model (

                  Here to get to the bottom! Neighbors: Turkey produced more than a million cars that year, Poland more than 450 thousand. And they generally do not have national manufacturers. The Czech Republic produces converted Foltsy, Romania the entire post-war history - Reno. Well, the Soviet auto industry did not draw competition with world competitors. It is good that cars are produced under domestic brands.
  • ATATA
    ATATA 29 September 2013 19: 20
    +2
    Quote: Cooper
    only we drive European cars, watch Japanese telly.

    laughing
    And here we are playing under the Christmas tree on the balalaika and drinking vodka with the bears that we buy on coupons.
    laughing
    The trouble is, go back to your caches, disassemble and lubricate your Schmeiser and read the Geyropei propaganda. laughing
  • konvalval
    konvalval 28 September 2013 21: 35
    0
    And now the same has appeared at Abama.
  • piotr534
    piotr534 28 September 2013 22: 05
    +2
    Hitler also had her own truth.
    True, she is always alone. Different perceptions of individuals of the same things. It's just that people value the same thing in different ways. hi
  • Simon
    Simon 29 September 2013 21: 39
    +1
    Time will tell! Only then it will be too late to bite your elbows, for Ukraine it is fatal, and Russia will survive without Ukraine. And in general, does Ukraine need Europe, and in what status? Most likely in the status of slaves. hi
  • Kars
    Kars 28 September 2013 15: 51
    +1
    In addition to the natural increase in the price of energy carriers, the supplier of which is the Russian Federation
    And why will they increase? Will they also be inspected at customs and outweighed? Or are there benefits for Ukraine on energy carriers?
    customs interaction of the Russian Federation with European countries.
    All goods from Europe pickle at the border?
    most contracts for the mutual supply of components in the field of military-technical cooperation will be reviewed
    If they had the opportunity, they would have been reviewed for a long time, while the Russian Federation has been trying to create a secluded production cycle for a long time. And it will be interesting to see how the Russian Federation will buy the place of Ukraine from NATO countries? Or can it reorient to Kazakhstan? China?
    Ukraine. Given the tightening of trade and increased competition between Russia and Ukraine, Ukrainian shipyards will not be able to meet the requests of Ukrspetsexport

    What is the Russian Federation building at Ukrainian shipyards now? And what is it selling that has no analogues in the world? What can’t be bought for example in China?
    The reason is simple: under the terms of the contract with China, the third and fourth ships will be built by Chinese enterprises with the involvement of Ukrainian specialists and the transfer of all technical documentation to the Chinese side.
    It’s common practice that even France sold the RF so roughly to Mistral, and it’s very doubtful to receive orders from the RF and that they would not become levers of watered and economical pressure.
    Ukraine will not so significantly affect the production volumes of these enterprises. But a possible change in the customs policy of Russia in relation to Ukrainian goods is not the main problem of the Antonov state enterprise.
    What can I say AN-70 was procrastinated for ten years, so this is no longer interesting. And the fact that engines with Motor Sich will rise in price for Russian consumers.

    To be mistaken in this regard means to miss the situation and lose what has been accumulated over the years of painstaking work. New customs conditions for Ukraine, duties unified with European Union standards, will push Ukrainian defense enterprises and heavy engineering enterprises in fierce competition with powerful European companies
    What nafig competition? Especially for defense enterprises? The defense industry complex of Ukraine and so basically works abroad, where this competition has long been. And in the domestic market - European military goods will still be more expensive than domestic.
    The products of this enterprise are competitive with products of companies such as Airbus SAS, British Aerospace, etc. However, the old European players are unlikely to support a promising competitor, as a result of which Antonov’s products will not be able to compete in the European market in terms of price indicators .
    And what will change? What will appear that isn’t there right now? Will Europeans make the aircraft cheaper than AN-70 and it will become the Ukrainian Air Force? And for the foreign market - for the sake of interest that components from Europe will become cheaper))
    enterprises of the military-industrial complex in particular.
    The funny thing is that the military-industrial complex may win, and that something would become much worse only orders for the Russian Federation, and even that will make the Russian Federation worse.
    1. domokl
      domokl 29 September 2013 19: 34
      +3
      And who says that it will be easy for Russia? That’s why the cheese has been raised. Only here is the Russian economy, how would Ukrainians not like more powerful Ukrainian and more mobile. Faster will be able to replace the lack of Ukrainian goods and components. Ukraine will have to fight for new markets in Europe. And this, alas, at the moment, death for most enterprises.
      Nor can we and you compete with European manufacturers now. Too many outdated technologies and means of production.
      So Kars, the decision of Ukraine is bad for all of us. But to whom it will be worse, everyone decides. Ukraine for Russia is becoming the same as the Baltic countries have become ...
      1. Kars
        Kars 29 September 2013 19: 42
        +1
        Quote: domokl
        Ukrainians are more powerful than Ukrainian and more mobile

        I’ll argue for a mobile one. Especially with your Skolkova and nanochubes. But the fact that you no longer argue with money.
        Quote: domokl
        .Ukraine will have to fight for new markets in Europe

        Why would it be? Everything will be as it is now
        Quote: domokl
        And this, alas, is death for most enterprises today.

        Why?
        Quote: domokl
        Nor can we and you compete with European manufacturers now. Too many outdated technologies and means of production.
        So they wrote that Ukraine is going to supply Tavria to Europe ..
        Quote: domokl
        , the decision of Ukraine is bad for all of us
        That's just for YOU everything will be according to your decision, for the sake of a possible title of GDP .. The USSR land collector .. and nothing more
        Quote: domokl
        Ukraine for Russia is becoming what the Baltic countries have become ...

        And before that, who were they?
        1. domokl
          domokl 29 September 2013 21: 15
          +3
          Quote: Kars
          I’ll argue for a mobile one. Especially with your Skolkova and nanochubes. But the fact that you no longer argue with money.

          So here the dog is buried ... We can reorient yourself, doubtfully ... Over the past years, Ukraine has not achieved real, not colloquial progress anywhere ... Now you are Russia of the 90s ...
          Quote: Kars
          Why would it be? Everything will be as it is now

          Alas, it will not be like now ... A change in the status of Ukraine will certainly lead to curtailment of defense programs, in the field of science, and Ukrainian goods will probably lose their only advantage, cheapness ... That is what made them competitive in the market ..
          Quote: Kars
          Why?

          Because Russia cannot afford to develop military equipment with the state, which in the future will become an adversary. Alas, we have been taught the experience of the 08 year war and we remember Ukraine handed over the codes ...
          Quote: Kars
          So they wrote that Ukraine is going to supply Tavria to Europe

          But what is Ukraine going to do in the EU? What or whom to supply there? The free market implies that goods are sold throughout the union without restrictions. And if Ukraine is not going to supply products to the EU, then what or whom?
          Quote: Kars
          That's just for YOU everything will be according to your decision, for the sake of a possible title of GDP .. The USSR land collector .. and nothing more

          Phew, how primitive ... Russia does not claim independence of Ukraine ... Like other former sserovtsev.Who did we forcibly accept as part of Russia? Based on what then are your conversations? We just understand, it’s easier to survive together ..
          Quote: Kars
          And before that, who were they?

          It’s even more disgusting ... I don’t even want to answer. How quickly everything is forgotten. Probably your destiny is this. It’s like in the minibus above the door it’s written-Baska does not fight ... And still they fight through one ...
          And the taste, excuse me, I didn’t have a good comment from your comment ...
          1. Kars
            Kars 29 September 2013 21: 23
            +1
            Quote: domokl
            ..Now you are Russia sample of the 90s ...

            We have been living without oil and gas for 20 years. Our economy has proved that it is more viable than the economy of the Russian Federation. And reoriented, you don’t really have anything and no one.
            Quote: domokl
            Alas, it will not be like now ... A change in the status of Ukraine will certainly lead to curtailing programs in the field of defense and science

            Only in fantasies of such types as Glazyev and no more.
            Quote: domokl
            , and Ukrainian goods will probably lose the only advantage, cheapness

            WHY? What’s the salary increase for workers? Or what?
            Quote: domokl
            Because Russia cannot afford to develop military equipment with the state,

            But what are you, and what is NOW Russia and Ukraine developing? Rather, it was DEVELOPING? An AN-70 bagpipe pulled? What else?

            Quote: domokl
            But what is Ukraine going to do in the EU? What or whom to supply there?

            It also sells now, only cheaper due to duties.
            Quote: domokl
            Fu, how primitive ... Russia does not pretend to independence of Ukraine ..
            Well, you do not sign for GDP.

            Quote: domokl
            ? We just understand, together it's easier to survive

            Does not look like it.
            Quote: domokl
            More abominable ... I don’t even want to answer
            Maybe it’s just that there’s nothing to answer, or something like tell me that the CIS free trade zone really worked? Or did Ukraine have any preferences? What didn’t Germany have in trade with Russia, for example?

            Quote: domokl
            And the taste, excuse me, I didn’t have a good comment from your comment ...
            This is the taste of crumbling illusions
            1. Normal
              Normal 29 September 2013 22: 10
              +5
              Quote: Kars
              We have been living without oil and gas for 20 years. Our economy has proved that it is more viable than the economy of the Russian Federation

              Yes really? So straight without oil and gas? On firewood or what?
              About ten years they stole gas and were proud of it.
              But tell me, are you our viable, all these 20 years, Russians go to UkrA Inu to earn money or vice versa? I agree that recently, Ukrainians have lost competition to the Tajiks, but this does not mean that you will win the competition with eastern Europe.
              Quote: Kars
              Did Ukraine have any preferences?

              Of course, didn’t you know? It is enough to recall the opportunity for Ukrainians not to register for 2 months in the territory of Russia, while Russians are required to register within 7 days.
              Quote: Kars
              This is the taste of crumbling illusions

              Russia is much larger and more inert than UkrAina and therefore you will have to part with illusions much faster and tougher. Only this does not teach you anything. So much the worse for you.
              1. Kars
                Kars 29 September 2013 22: 18
                +1
                Quote: Normal
                Yes really? So straight without oil and gas? On firewood or what?

                Well, of course you are so normal that you did not understand about energy trade)) I can even add that for three years Ukraine has been paying a lot for gas.
                Quote: Normal
                About ten years they stole gas and were proud of it.

                Is it proven? How much was stolen? Is there a court order? Or are you dumbfounded?
                Quote: Normal
                But tell me, you are our viable, all these 20 years Russians have been going to UkrA Inu to work or vice versa

                Someone drives, only how does it prove something?
                Quote: Normal
                I agree that recently, Ukrainians have lost competition to the Tajiks, but this does not mean that you will win the competition with eastern Europe.

                Well, yes, all Ukrainians traveled exclusively to the Russian Federation, and to Poland, Italy, and so on.
                Quote: Normal
                Of course, didn’t you know?

                Did not know.
                Quote: Normal
                do not register for 2 months in the territory of Russia,

                And what does this have to do with trade activity? Regarding registration - and how much did the Uzbeks get it? Latvians and so on? About registering Russians in Ukraine - I never was interested in this.
                Quote: Normal
                Russia is much larger and more inert

                Well discovered America.
                Quote: Normal
                Only it doesn’t teach you anything

                What is it?
                1. Normal
                  Normal 29 September 2013 22: 52
                  +1
                  Quote: Kars
                  I can even add that for three years Ukraine has been paying a lot for gas.

                  Ah-yay, as much as THREE years ... When, for 10 years, stealing was certainly cheaper ...
                  Quote: Kars
                  Well, of course you’re so normal that you didn’t understand about energy trade

                  Of course, you are such "Kars" that you did not understand that I was not talking about lard.
                  Quote: Kars
                  Is it proven?

                  Does this require evidence? Then your evidence that the parallel do not intersect, please.
                  Quote: Kars
                  Someone drives, only how does it prove something?

                  It’s like someone. To whom and count on the head amuse ...
                  Quote: Kars
                  Well, yes, all Ukrainians traveled exclusively to the Russian Federation, and to Poland, Italy, and so on.
                  Yes, even to Canada. The more Svidomo dump, the faster UkrAnina will be with Russia
                  Quote: Kars
                  Did not know.

                  Well, who is balabolit?
                  Quote: Kars
                  ? As for the registration of Russians in Ukraine - I have never been interested in this.

                  Well, don’t turn it on, it’s not about registering Russians in UkrAin, you understand everything perfectly.
                  Quote: Kars
                  Well discovered America.
                  The main thing is that it’s not UkrAinu, and you haven’t discovered it, or are trying not to see the obvious. Rhetoric .... it is necessary to create the impression that he is right, and then it does not matter what the words are empty. Is that right, Andrey? wink
                  Quote: Kars
                  What is it?

                  What's this?
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 29 September 2013 23: 00
                    +1
                    Quote: Normal
                    Ah-yay, as much as THREE years ... When, for 10 years, stealing was certainly cheaper ...

                    Quote: Kars
                    Is it proven? How much was stolen? Is there a court order? Or are you dumbfounded?


                    Quote: Normal
                    Of course, you are such "Kars" that you did not understand that I was not talking about lard.

                    Strange
                    Quote: Normal
                    Yes really? So straight without oil and gas? On firewood or what?

                    Did you mean that we trade in energy? Or that we burn fat?
                    Quote: Normal
                    Does this require evidence? Then your evidence that the parallel do not intersect, please.

                    So all the same, you are a balabol.

                    Quote: Normal
                    It’s like someone. To whom and count on the head amuse ...

                    So this proves in context
                    Quote: Kars
                    We have been living without oil and gas for 20 years. Our economy has proved that it is more viable than the economy of the Russian Federation

                    ??
                    Quote: Normal
                    Well, don’t turn it on, it’s not about registering Russians in UkrAin, you understand everything perfectly.

                    What to include? And what about in context
                    Quote: Normal
                    Do not register for 2 months in the territory of Russia, while Russians are required to register within 7 days.

                    What did they mean? Where? What about?
                    Quote: Normal
                    The main thing is that it’s not UkrAinu, but you haven’t discovered it, or you’re trying not to see the obvious

                    Where is it visible? I once claimed that the Russian Federation is territorially small and frisky?
                    Quote: Normal
                    a rhetoric .... one must create the impression that he is right, and then it doesn’t matter what the words are empty

                    Well, you know better - as such, you did not say anything, so in the void you are right.
                    Quote: Normal
                    What's this?


                    Quote: Normal
                    Only you it doesn't teach anything

                    Highlighted in color and font, so that IT does not teach anything.
                    1. Normal
                      Normal 29 September 2013 23: 35
                      +3
                      Quote: Kars
                      Strange
                      ....
                      Did you mean that we trade in energy? Or that we burn fat?
                      ....
                      So this proves in context
                      .....
                      What to include? And what about in context
                      .....
                      What did they mean? Where? What about?
                      .....
                      Well, you know better - as such, you did not say anything, so in the void you are right.


                      In context, Andrey, the fact that when it comes to UkrAine, you are a balabolist. Regarding rhetoric, this is about you, and you understood THAT ... You also did not say anything, but you were engaged in rhetoric, that is, balabolil. At least I’m joking about your seriousness, and you’ll be empty-headed with a serious air. "What is THIS" And what is this ?:

                      Quote: Kars
                      We have been living without oil and gas for 20 years. Our economy has proved that it is more viable than the economy of the Russian Federation
                      ??

                      You quote your own quote and you yourself put three question marks under it. Who are you asking, huh? Myself, or anyone else?
                      Quote: Kars
                      Highlighted in color and font, so that IT does not teach anything.

                      That still not tired of stepping on a rake?
                      I already wrote it seems that UkrAin exists only in order to show Russia how not to do it. Well done, you are doing it. Keep it up! When you break a rake on your forehead, we will sell you new ones. We have a lot, we do not mind. Moreover, you and rake will soon stop releasing. Europe will not allow you.
                      1. Kars
                        Kars 30 September 2013 00: 04
                        +1
                        Quote: Normal
                        you are a balabol

                        Strange, you said that Ukraine stole gas - but you don’t want to confirm this. And further on the context, there’s only a foolishness and nothing more.
                        Quote: Normal
                        You quote your own quote and you yourself put three question marks under it

                        It’s strange, it’s normal and not understandable
                        Quote: Kars
                        Quote: Normal
                        It’s like someone. To whom and count on the head amuse ...
                        So this proves in context
                        Quote: Kars
                        We have been living without oil and gas for 20 years. Our economy has proved that it is more viable than the economy of the Russian Federation
                        ??

                        So pimesh what are the question marks?

                        Quote: Normal
                        That still not tired of stepping on a rake?

                        So the answer is that you can’t?
                        Quote: Normal
                        We have a lot, we do not mind

                        We don’t really need you after you. But they say the truth - that sometimes people write the truth, thinking to be smart. This is about the fact that you stepped on a lot of rakes.
                        Quote: Normal
                        Europe will not allow you

                        Why? And Russia would be happy to allow us to produce a rake?))) Maybe from myself production would transfer to Ukraine)))
                      2. Normal
                        Normal 30 September 2013 07: 00
                        +2
                        Quote: Kars
                        Strange, you said ...
                        ....
                        Strange sort of normal ...
                        ....
                        So, why?
                        ....
                        It's me that you stepped on a lot of rakes ...
                        ....
                        So the answer is that you can’t?
                        ....
                        Why?


                        Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah!
                        Rhetoric, Kars, rhetoric .... And no content ...
                        Be ...
                      3. Kars
                        Kars 30 September 2013 11: 26
                        +1
                        Quote: Normal
                        rhetoric .... And no content ...
                        Come on.

                        So what did you get in? Threw the unfounded accusation of fattening on gas stolen from the Russian Federation and now to blame it, as the specifics asked you? How does this look like a Russian?
                      4. Normal
                        Normal 30 September 2013 19: 18
                        +3
                        Quote: Kars
                        How does it look like a Russian a.

                        So, after all, Russian and Ukrainians are siblings. wink
                        Quote: Kars
                        as specifics asked you

                        The specifics will be to the one who sets out the specifics, and on your show-offs - banter.
                        Quote: Kars
                        So what are you doing?

                        Your self-conceit and "greatness" pushes you up. am
                        Quote: Kars
                        unfounded accusation

                        On the basis of this "unfounded accusation" against Tymoshenko, a criminal case was opened in Russia. Forgot? Or pretending?
                        You also had another prime minister. Lazarenko, remember? So he was all surprised; What, they say, claims to me? Well yes; he stole gas from Russia, but stole something not for himself but for UkrAina. repeat
                      5. Kars
                        Kars 30 September 2013 22: 43
                        +1
                        Quote: Normal
                        So, after all, Russian and Ukrainians are siblings.

                        Second cousins.
                        Although you may be a relative of some gall midge lover.
                        Quote: Normal
                        The specifics will be to the one who sets out the specifics, and on your show-offs - banter.

                        It’s strange - it’s YOU who said it kankretno about the theft of gas by Ukraine, but now you are somehow slipping away.
                        Quote: Normal
                        Stirs up your self-importance and "greatness"

                        it's good.
                        Quote: Normal
                        On the basis of this "unfounded accusation" against Tymoshenko, a criminal case was opened in Russia. Forgot? Or pretending?

                        Is Tymoshenko Ukraine? And how did it end? By the way, were there no accused with Russian citizenship?
                        Quote: Normal
                        You also had another prime minister. Lazarenko, remember?

                        Is he Ukraine? And how much he specifically stole gas from the Russian Federation? Are there any charges?
                        Quote: Normal
                        So he was all surprised; What, they say, claims to me? Well yes; stole gas from Russia

                        Can I quote and source?
  • Brave
    Brave 28 September 2013 15: 53
    0
    Ukrainians will fill up cones with the EU, but they will be asked to go back to Russia, and we will, of course, take it. We are brothers, let the little one fool around - it will become smarter.
    1. GastaClaus69
      GastaClaus69 28 September 2013 16: 39
      +3
      Everything is relative.
    2. I am a Russian
      I am a Russian 28 September 2013 21: 09
      +2
      Quote: Bold
      yes back to Russia will be requested


      no will not be requested. It will impose its own conditions on Russia by all possible "methods". And it is unlikely that Ukraine will "break" off the hook of the European Union.
    3. Felix200970
      Felix200970 29 September 2013 21: 12
      0
      Quote: Bold
      Ukrainians will fill up cones with the EU, but they will be asked to go back to Russia, and we will, of course, take it. We are brothers, let the little one fool around - it will become smarter.

      Nobody will stuff anything for themselves. It's just that Russian businessmen doing business in Ukraine will have some difficulties. But in general, why did all the boron cheese start? It has been said about the EU association for more than 20 years and "... we are about to be taken there" (most likely in the next life on another planet). And in general, adults gathered to express their opinions on the portal, but it seems that everyone still believes in fairy tales. It was necessary to throw Poroshenko on the grandmother to be more agreeable - and they threw him. The goods that Russia needs as they walked along the "green street" and goes on. Who needs noodles about joining the EU or the CU and the inability to participate in both unions?
  • Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 28 September 2013 16: 01
    27
    I think that the discussion on "what will happen to the Ukrainian economy and the military-industrial complex" will be postponed for 5-7 years. These conversations are groundless and unproductive. I propose to stop these empty talking room and wait 5-7 years. The future will show who is right ... and who is to blame.
    1. chushoj
      chushoj 28 September 2013 16: 13
      0
      Ukraine is an Orthodox country. According to the laws of Orthodoxy, capitalism is not compatible with such a spiritual principle.
      1. GastaClaus69
        GastaClaus69 28 September 2013 16: 41
        +2
        Do you know at least one person who lives by all the laws of Orthodoxy?
        1. chushoj
          chushoj 28 September 2013 17: 29
          +3
          Me and all my friends. And not one goes to the temple, not one is baptized, but anyone has access to the priest. I wish you to join. These are very good laws and are worth exploring. Although we do not stand in line with b-mi for holy water.
        2. Tatarus
          Tatarus 28 September 2013 17: 34
          +4
          Quote: GastaClaus69
          Do you know at least one person who lives by all the laws of Orthodoxy?


          I know many who lived according to the laws of Orthodoxy. They were counted among the saints, naturally, posthumously. I also consider it stupid to trust the spirituality of the population (of any country). Spirituality is not a collective property at all. But the community of spiritual people is already a collective with power. Stop yanking Ukraine and its people. They chose everything together. I do not see thousands of protests against the EEC, and you? So the people approved. There are no protests. Let them want to say, THEY ALL approved. Some words, some silence. As they say here God is the threshold. Stomp in peace, do not remember evil, do not expect good. I consider this a betrayal, they believe that this is a breakthrough. Time will judge. Let's wait patiently.
          1. chushoj
            chushoj 28 September 2013 17: 48
            +4
            There are no better and no worse. There are no major and no secondary. We are all together. This is the main direction of the national idea of ​​Russia. The main task of consumers is to destroy the whole. You can’t do anything with Ukraine, and you don’t need it. See how the main ideologists of Belarus (founders in Israel) are being processed.
            http://news.open.by/world/113094.
            Learn, it’s inexpensive, and does not require heroism. If you are amazed, you can do the most important thing in your life for your children - do not select Yeltsin at the next moment when the soul suddenly wants a CHANGE. Paying your children for your prank will be expensive and very long.
      2. gyl
        gyl 28 September 2013 21: 47
        -4
        We are a multi-confessional country, and practicing Christians, i.e. not just thumping at Christmas and Easter, but each day carrying their feat, most are Protestants.
  • Koronik
    Koronik 28 September 2013 16: 06
    +4
    It doesn’t happen to eat fish and a bucket of water alone. The green light for our brothers from Uraina may be lucky in the EU. And life will show that it will live more than the CU or the EU.
  • apostol88
    apostol88 28 September 2013 16: 23
    +1
    If the government starts investing normally in the defense industry, then everything will be fine. good And if not, then at least the EU or the CU, there will still be a scribe! wassat
    1. Genry
      Genry 28 September 2013 16: 52
      15
      The government will obey Brussels, and there are no competitors there.
      1. Akim
        Akim 28 September 2013 16: 59
        +1
        Quote: Genry
        The government will obey Brussels,

        We'll see everything soon. If Yanyk gives Timokha free will, they will steer from Brussels. If he sends her to Germany for treatment, it will be Polizei's "sexual problem", if she snatches her claws from there.
        1. Tatarus
          Tatarus 28 September 2013 17: 35
          +2
          Quote: Akim
          If the government starts investing normally in the defense industry


          And why the government now? You just think why he?
          1. Oleg Kharkov
            Oleg Kharkov 28 September 2013 17: 44
            +2
            Perhaps then they finally realized that money can be earned on the military-industrial complex, and not just on the mining and processing complex and the metallurgical complex. Of course, they do not think very fast, but they still think and really do something, unlike the previous comrades who can only talk.
            1. Akim
              Akim 28 September 2013 18: 04
              +1
              Quote: Oleg Kharkov
              Perhaps then they finally realized that money can be earned on the military-industrial complex, and

              Of course we did. They earned more from the sale of air-to-air missiles than from a Thai tank contract.
              1. Oleg Kharkov
                Oleg Kharkov 28 September 2013 18: 47
                +3
                So the Kiev "Artyom" just recently just started to work properly. When the authorities begin to understand that it is better to steal with profits: even if less, but with the prospect of repetition, the more, but once, then something starts to move and develop. Still, of course, they would not steal at all ... but this is generally on the verge of fantasy. Even so.
            2. Rus2012
              Rus2012 28 September 2013 20: 29
              +6
              Quote: Oleg Kharkov
              money can be earned on the military-industrial complex

              Show someone from eastern Europe (formerly the Warsaw Pact or the Baldon) who has the EU given to earn on the military-industrial complex?
              Laugh?
              1. Kars
                Kars 28 September 2013 20: 41
                +1
                Quote: Rus2012
                Why is the EU dalib making money on the military-industrial complex?
                Laugh?

                Yes, everyone who had a military-industrial complex on it at least earn something. Poland. The Romanians still stamp Kalashkov machine guns for export, etc., Czech Republic and Slovakia.


                Slovenian modernization of the T-72
                1. Rus2012
                  Rus2012 28 September 2013 21: 09
                  10
                  Quote: Kars
                  Yes, everyone who had a military-industrial complex on it at least something to earn. Poland.

                  ... yes guys ... these "homemade" products do not give you rest ...
                  For information, Poland, when organizing CMEA, was somewhere around 2 in the top ten European powers for economic development. Only from aviation produced up to a dozen aircraft, helicopters, similar to Czechoslovakia. Now where is all this? Where are Mi-2, An-2, MiG-15bis, MiG-17F / PF, L-39, Moraves, their development? but in 3,14zde ...
                  You will have the same thing, don’t you?

                  Smart Ukrainians have already acquired Russian citizenship. They work in the aircraft rocket industry. And they will come. Only not everyone will be accepted ...
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 28 September 2013 21: 13
                    +1
                    Quote: Rus2012
                    Now where is all this? Where Mi-2, An-2, MiG-15bis, MiG-17F / PF, L-39,

                    And who needs it?
                    Quote: Rus2012
                    You will have the same thing, don’t you?

                    No, I don’t find it. It was 20 years ago to weed out viable enterprises.

                    So for the sake of fun in England, the tank factory closed - do you think this is from the mournful influence of the EU?
                    1. Rus2012
                      Rus2012 28 September 2013 21: 28
                      +5
                      Quote: Kars
                      And who needs it?

                      An-2 is still in demand, as is Mi-2.
                      And Poland will NEVER be able to produce aircraft.
                      Quote: Kars
                      tank factory closed in England

                      Buy Abrams ... or Leopards ... business.
                      In these conditions, you certainly have to forget about your "strongholds" ...
                      1. Akim
                        Akim 28 September 2013 21: 39
                        +2
                        Kars, a comment on you, but can I answer too?
                        Quote: Rus2012
                        And Poland will NEVER be able to produce aircraft.

                        Well, we won't talk about "Falcons".
                        That's replacing the Su-22 - Grot 2
                        Read, recognize, and do not look down upon ignorance.
                      2. Russ69
                        Russ69 29 September 2013 00: 00
                        +3
                        Quote: Akim
                        That's replacing the Su-22 - Grot 2

                        When, there will be no prototype, but a real prototype, then we'll talk ...
                      3. Akim
                        Akim 29 September 2013 05: 11
                        -1
                        Quote: Russ69
                        When, there will be no prototype, but a real prototype

                        The T-50 was also once in the model version. Political decision made. Deadlines for scrap metal Su-22 - 2018. So consider it.
                      4. Gecko
                        Gecko 29 September 2013 15: 44
                        +2
                        Well, you compared something with a finger, Russia has its own school of aircraft manufacturing in this area, the Chinese, swelling a lot of money with a creak, design and manufacture modern aircraft. And then Poland ... The Japanese won’t indulge in models too.
                      5. Akim
                        Akim 29 September 2013 15: 51
                        0
                        I do not defend Poland, but she produced military aircraft and I think she can handle it. Nobody says that it will be a direct competitor.
                2. JIaIIoTb
                  JIaIIoTb 29 September 2013 12: 29
                  +2
                  Judging by the model, it looks more like a variant of a light combat training fighter. Not like replacing the SU-22.
                3. Akim
                  Akim 29 September 2013 14: 53
                  -1
                  Quote: JIaIIoTb
                  Not like replacing the SU-22.

                  If you read in Polish
                  http://www.defence24.pl/news_grot-2-bedzie-nastepca-su-22
                  There really is a question mark, but other sources do not ask such a question
            3. Kars
              Kars 28 September 2013 23: 08
              +1
              Quote: Rus2012
              An-2 is still in demand, as is Mi-2.

              and where does anyone make them?
              Quote: Rus2012
              Buy Abrams ... or Leopards ... business.

              Actually, this is not about that.
              Quote: Rus2012
              In these conditions, you certainly have to forget about your "strongholds" ...

              Why? For what reason? In addition to the lack of funding and order from the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine.
            4. Rus2012
              Rus2012 29 September 2013 11: 02
              +2
              Quote: Kars
              Why? For what reason? In addition to the lack of funding and order from the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine.

              ... uh, dear colleague, but imagine the situation - the components for your devices (art systems, much more) will cost comparable to NATO ones. Will have to set the western, and what will the final price result in?
              That's right, almost like the Leopards and Leclerc ...
              And will they bite your market?
              Mono to put Chinese systems, only about 5 the price will be significantly more expensive than Chinese toys - who needs them?
              This is it ...
              Everything will end with the Polish layout that was given at the top and single samples ...
            5. cooper
              cooper 29 September 2013 11: 17
              -2
              ahh, these ROSSkomplektuyuschie, I remember the guns for tanks did not want to sell, made their own.
              Well, Russia is not the center of the universe. Fact.
            6. Kars
              Kars 29 September 2013 13: 21
              +1
              Quote: Rus2012
              .. eee, dear colleague, but imagine the situation - the components for your devices (art systems, much more) will cost comparable to NATO ones.

              There are no Russian components for the Oplot tank. There are French, there are Romanian ones.
              Quote: Rus2012
              will cost comparable to NATO

              And why will your weapons be as expensive as the NATO ones? The Russian Federation will cost and take. That is lower.
              Quote: Rus2012
              That's right, almost like the Leopards and Leclerc ...

              Now at 2, a million is cheaper, and this is at prices for the customer.
          2. Rus2012
            Rus2012 29 September 2013 11: 14
            +2
            An-2 in the form of An-3 is going to Russia. Dvig - GTE is western, but you could set Zaporizhzhya if you had a reasonable policy ...
          3. cooper
            cooper 29 September 2013 11: 23
            +1
            and let me tell you how? Antonov’s price is lower, dviglo is better.
          4. Rus2012
            Rus2012 29 September 2013 12: 15
            0
            Quote: Cooper
            and let me tell you how? Antonov’s price is lower, dviglo is better.

            ... the predictability of prospects is nothing more.
            Thousands of devices, those that have been done, stand without engines and repairs. There are factories. ASH-62 - no, the Poles ruined. I have my own engine, Omsk is still unfinished. Need to fly, wait. Western engine is and is debugged. More expensive, yes. Pilezhzhzh, not without it. But, the prospects are predictable ...
        2. Kars
          Kars 29 September 2013 13: 23
          +1
          Quote: Rus2012
          An-2 in the form of An-3 is going to Russia.

          made fun of
          Polar Airlines - 4 units
          EMERCOM of Russia - 3 units
          Airline "Avialift DV" - 2 units.

          http://kotobood.livejournal.com/1254465.html#cutid1
        3. Rus2012
          Rus2012 29 September 2013 18: 50
          +1
          Quote: Kars

          made fun of
          Polar Airlines - 4 units
          EMERCOM of Russia - 3 units
          Airline "Avialift DV" - 2 units.

          Weird sarcasm, dear comrade, gentleman or panov, you have a little Polish enthusiasm and joy for the Polish model of the model, it’s still not a flying rocket, and here - 8 units of completely flying vehicles cause sarcasm.
          For information -
          “In December 2012, it became known that an agreement was signed with the American company Honeywell for the supply of 100 TPE331 turboprop engines to Russia. This event is referred to as the first real step towards the revival of Russian regional aviation. which are available in all regions and are capable of flying in the most difficult conditions. "
          Less than a year has passed ...
          And you seem to need to really survive the European enslavement in order to fall on real soil. NL.
          I wish you success in the field of European integration. Only there is a desire that you no longer have any business ... Never ...
        4. Kars
          Kars 29 September 2013 18: 59
          +1
          Quote: Rus2012
          Strange sarcasm,

          And what’s strange here is that you pompously stated
          Quote: Rus2012
          An-2 in the form of An-3 is going to Russia. Dvig - GTE is western, but they could put Zaporizhzhya,

          And I showed how much they collected.

          Quote: Rus2012
          "In December 2012 it became known that an agreement was signed with the American company Honeywell for the supply of 100 TPE331 turboprop engines to Russia.

          Did you see the link?
          In Ulyanovsk, it is planned to carry out maintenance, modernization and repair of aircraft of the entire An-line developed in the Ukrainian design bureau “Antonov”, as well as re-equipment of the An-2 aircraft into the An-2-100 turboprop version. This was agreed at the MAKS-2013 salon by the heads of the Ulyanovsk region and the Antonov State Enterprise. The Ukrainians consider the agreement on the modernization of the An-2 central to the agreement and predict high demand for the new version. Their competitors from Novosibirsk, who are creating a similar aircraft AN-2 SM, believe that there is enough demand in Russia for both modifications.

          On Wednesday, at the International Aviation and Space Salon MAKS-2013, the Governor of the Ulyanovsk Region Sergey Morozov and General Designer of Antonov State Enterprise Dmitry Kiva signed an agreement on joint activities in the implementation of long-term programs to create

          Quote: Rus2012
          Less than a year has passed ...


          Quote: Rus2012
          then you have a little delight and joy in the Polish model of the model

          I have? Yes, I don’t care if he cares. Although this again refutes your pompous words about the collapse of the Polish defense industry. Although there is much pride and so there was nothing to do, mostly licensed. So during the USSR, the Warsaw Pact countries were especially shone
          Quote: Rus2012
          And you seem to need to really survive the European enslavement in order to fall on real soil

          Again, the high-flavored syllable0eurovailment, probably communism would be waiting for us with Russia))
          Quote: Rus2012
          Only there is a desire that you no longer have any business ... Never ...

          It’s your child’s maximalism, which has also leapfrogged over your kings. Which you need not normal cooperation with, but rather crush for yourself.
        5. Akim
          Akim 29 September 2013 19: 07
          0
          Quote: Rus2012
          And you seem to need to really survive the European enslavement in order to fall on real soil.

          I wonder how many "flattering" comments tomorrow will be caused by the news that Iraq is going to break the contract with Ukraine?
  • Akim
    Akim 28 September 2013 21: 17
    +2
    Quote: Rus2012
    Now where is all this? Where are the Mi-2, An-2, MiG-15bis, MiG-17F / PF, L-39, Moraves, their development? but in 3,14zde ...
    You will have the same thing, don’t you?

    The same can be said about the Ukrainian and Russian military-industrial complex. I didn’t even fit into the topic of RAE 2013.
    1. Rus2012
      Rus2012 28 September 2013 21: 34
      +5
      Quote: Akim
      and about the Russian military-industrial complex

      our military-industrial complex, whether it’s worse or worse, is still somersaulting. And still get better, there is such a hope ...
      We will sail, God forbid!
      1. Akim
        Akim 28 September 2013 21: 43
        +2
        Quote: Rus2012
        our military-industrial complex, whether it’s worse or worse, is still somersaulting.

        And no one says that he died. There is always hope and everyone else why live.
    2. Avenger711
      Avenger711 28 September 2013 21: 45
      0
      Our defense industry is going uphill.
    3. Avenger711
      Avenger711 28 September 2013 22: 03
      +1
      In general, your whining is already tired, that in Russia everything is as bad as yours.
      1. Akim
        Akim 28 September 2013 22: 10
        +3
        Quote: Avenger711
        In general, your whining is already tired, that in Russia everything is as bad as yours.

        Here you know how we do. Probably read from the press?
      2. Avenger711
        Avenger711 28 September 2013 23: 52
        +1
        It is possible in more detail about the achievement of the Ukrainian military-industrial complex in recent years 3. And then in the Russian Federation, contracts are being concluded for tens and hundreds of military equipment, thousands of vehicles in general, new weapons systems are being developed, but in Ukraine some armored personnel carriers are defective, it seems, all fifty of Thailand’s tanks will not deliver.
      3. Akim
        Akim 29 September 2013 05: 24
        +2
        Quote: Avenger711
        . And then in the Russian Federation there are contracts for tens and hundreds of units of military equipment, thousands of vehicles in general, new weapons systems are being developed,

        Are you tired of your pussy being measured? There are different situations. They compared Russia as a global seller, which is associated with the Soviet Union and a young seller of Ukraine. If it disappears, it means there are buyers. And then you are pathetic attempts of your brain only with armored vehicles. Ukraine pushes a lot of other things.
        You probably don't know that many navigation systems and systems where lasers are used for the Russian frigate are supplied by Izyum Instrument-Making and Fotopribor.
      4. Corsair
        Corsair 29 September 2013 06: 00
        +2
        Quote: Akim
        Are you tired of your pussy being measured? There are different situations. They compared Russia as a global seller, which is associated with the Soviet Union and a young seller of Ukraine.

        The seller may be young, but the military-industrial complex is from the same roots, and therefore transactions on the world market (and not only weapons) could be comparable ...
        Further, you can develop my thought yourself by weighing the opportunities lost by Ukraine.
      5. Akim
        Akim 29 September 2013 06: 16
        +1
        Quote: Corsair
        The seller may be young, but the military-industrial complex is from the same roots, with

        I know you read in other languages. Read. Learn a lot of interesting things. The enterprises of the military-industrial complex that were in the Ukrainian SSR worked for the internal defense industry and, besides KrAZA and Antonov, are almost unknown on the foreign market. These enterprises continued to successfully export their products after the death of the USSR.
      6. Corsair
        Corsair 29 September 2013 06: 29
        +2
        Quote: Akim
        Learn a lot of interesting things.

        The saddest, and not interesting, thing that I know about the economy of Ukraine, and the military-industrial complex in particular, is in what state it was after the collapse of the USSR and continues to stagnate to this day.

        And about KRAZ, I’ll say, there are NO new (by the time of release) cars of this manufacturer on the roads of Ukraine. And I’m completely silent about the updated lineup ...
      7. Akim
        Akim 29 September 2013 06: 39
        +2
        There was a period of devastation, now a period of stagnation. I admit this unpleasant fact. Along with it is the period of modernization.
        As for KrAZ - he lives, though not as beautiful as before. Although there are both internal and external purchases. And the army buys and civilians. Look, that week communal workers of Kremenchug bought a vacuum cleaner, the week before last, Odessa. Several grain carriers were also delivered to the Odessa region.
      8. Avenger711
        Avenger711 29 September 2013 21: 12
        0
        Less than 1000 cars a year is ruin. There is no sense in building a plant for such volumes. Although I guess that after the ruin of a number of manufacturers, the remaining ones became easier, well, the purchase of something from Russia, only progress is not visible.
      9. teleset
        teleset 29 September 2013 21: 47
        0
        The car is beautiful and beautiful, and KRAZ has a great history, I immediately recall the SOVIET UNION. Many drove them and even with two trailers it was cool, They had a long muzzle current. An attack could create competition for our KAMAZ; prices could drop, but current is unlikely to be possible.
      10. Akim
        Akim 29 September 2013 22: 00
        +1
        Quote: teleset
        The car is beautiful and beautiful, and KRAZ has a great history, I immediately recall the SOVIET UNION

        Here is the KrAZ grain truck. Three such agricultural enterprises near Odessa recently bought.
  • Avenger711
    Avenger711 29 September 2013 15: 48
    0
    KrAZ is neither in Ukraine nor in Russia, which is not surprising when production is less than 1000 cars per year. However, these are not our problems, when you separated, you were going to live without us, as in France, now it turns out that nobody in the world needs your entire industry, and you, funny thing, are trying to justify it.
  • Akim
    Akim 29 September 2013 15: 58
    0
    Quote: Avenger711
    Now it turns out that nobody in the world needs your entire industry,

    Good. Soothed your libido? Maybe on Monday, work will come out easier. It is useless to those who are in the tank what to prove.
  • Avenger711
    Avenger711 29 September 2013 15: 44
    -1
    That is, there is nothing to answer? Ukraine can no longer produce aircraft, nor armored vehicles, nor missile weapons, not even a penny rifle, if it produces something, it is only in Russia that they take along Soviet production chains, and then every day there are less and less of them.

    Kharkov plant was the largest tank manufacturer in Europe, where is the success? Or only T-72 from warehouses much to sell?
  • Oleg Kharkov
    Oleg Kharkov 29 September 2013 16: 03
    0
    Why is this all? If you are not interested in what Ukraine produces and sells in the field of aircraft engineering, rocket science, armored vehicles and small arms, then what are these provocations for? Although what can be expected from a person writing comments from at least the 6th account.
  • windjoker
    windjoker 30 September 2013 00: 32
    0
    Regarding small arms, they buy them in 2012: “Meanwhile, the United States of America, Germany, Canada, Chad and Sudan were named among the largest buyers of Ukrainian small arms. So, according to official information, more than 90 thousand carbines and rifles, to Germany - about 29 thousand pistols, revolvers, carbines and rifles. Sudan received 22 thousand carbines and rifles, Chad - 15 thousand weapons and 11 thousand ended up in Canada. "
    http://vpk.name/news/94103_eksport_ukrainskogo_oruzhiya_itogi_2012_goda.html
  • windjoker
    windjoker 1 October 2013 20: 52
    0
    In addition to armored vehicles, artillery and small arms, Ukraine is also engaged in the export of missile weapons. The main buyers of this type of weapon were Israel and the United States. For example, the Israeli side purchased 120 guided anti-tank missiles and more 190 missiles for man-portable air defense systems, and America more 135 missiles for MANPADS. According to S. Zgurts, the Americans, in the same way as Israel, are purchasing Soviet Igla and Strela complexes in order to work out the main methods of protection against Soviet-made MANPADS used in Afghanistan.

    There is another study on Ukrainian military exports. Its author is a political expert Vladimir Matveev. According to him, about 47 percent of all Ukrainian military exports go to Asia, about 23 percent to African countries, another 21 percent to CIS countries, about 6 percent to European countries, and only about 3 percent to both American continents. The main exporter of military and special equipment in Ukraine is the concern Ukrspetsesport, which currently cooperates with 78 countries of the world. At the same time, its largest partners are India, China, Iraq, Russia, Thailand. Qatar and Saudi Arabia also buy weapons from Ukraine.
  • windjoker
    windjoker 1 October 2013 21: 03
    0
    Back in December last year, the Russian OJSC Klimov began type tests of the VK-2500 helicopter engine for the Ka-52, Mi-28, Mi-8 and Mi-17 helicopters, which were completely assembled from Russian parts. This was the last stage of engine testing, after which its mass production begins. So far, the main supplier of parts for engines assembled at Klimov is Motor Sich.

    But already by 2015, as part of the import substitution program, it is planned to completely abandon foreign pickers. In 2013, the Russian company plans to produce 50 purely Russian engines. And at full production capacity of 500 units, they intend to enter by 2015 and cover the entire Russian market.

    True, in response to the "demarche" of Russian engine builders, the CEO of Motor Sich, Vyacheslav Boguslaev, said that according to his calculations an engine assembled from Russian parts by 2015 will be 2–2,5 times more expensive than Ukrainian ones. Moreover, according to him, the resource of Ukrainian engines is higher, and new developments “are 20 years ahead of the possible developments of Klimov Design Bureau”.

    But on the example of many joint projects, Ukraine has already managed to make sure that in Russia issues of military-technical cooperation are most often considered not from the position of economic pragmatism, but political expediency. And the fact that now “Russian Helicopters” are agreeing with Ukraine only indicates that the Russian “defense industry,” as Vyacheslav Boguslaev notes, cannot yet compete with the Ukrainians in the design and manufacture of aircraft engines. laughing
  • Akim
    Akim 28 September 2013 20: 43
    0
    Quote: Rus2012
    to whom the EU dalib earn on the military-industrial complex?

    Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia, Bulgaria (this is in the EU). Romania is trying, but its products are in little demand. Serbia also aspires to the European Union.
    1. Rus2012
      Rus2012 28 September 2013 21: 15
      +3
      Quote: Akim
      Serbia also aspires to the European Union.

      And about the latest trend - Serbia wants in the TS, have not heard? :)))))))))
      1. Akim
        Akim 28 September 2013 21: 20
        +4
        Quote: Rus2012
        Serbia wishes in the CU, have not heard? :)))))))))

        I heard and read the Russian version. Only I read in Serbian. And the opinion of a number of parties does not always coincide with the opinion of the majority.
    2. Old skeptic
      Old skeptic 29 September 2013 00: 22
      +1
      Quote: Akim
      Serbia also aspires to the European Union.


      At the customs, read the press.


      Patriotism is certainly good, but patriotism with separatism should not be interfered.
      I do not mean the state, but the people, history, mentality, faith, fate ... ..
      1. Corneli
        Corneli 29 September 2013 05: 04
        +1
        Quote: Rus2012
        And about the latest trend - Serbia wants in the TS, have not heard? :)))))))))

        Quote: Old Skeptic
        Patriotism is certainly good, but patriotism with separatism should not be interfered.
        I do not mean the state, but the people, history, mentality, faith, fate ... ..

        Golden words, before talking about how the Serbs "want" to join the CU, answer the question how many votes do those 3 parties (which are for the CU) have in the Assembly of Serbia? I may be wrong, but it seems to be smaller than the CPU in our country ... and Ukraine still "goes to the EU" (more precisely, it does not go to the Customs Union)
        P.S. Once again I am amazed at the prejudice and "uryayaya-kalschikam" (They threw a "bone" about the supposedly Serbian choice of the vehicle (oh, they have been talking about such a choice since the war), and that's all .... the members of the forum are happy! excites! (
      2. Akim
        Akim 29 September 2013 05: 32
        +1
        Quote: Old Skeptic
        At the customs, read the press.

        I read, not only Russian-speaking. Copy the phrase: The Attack of the Serbian European Union and google, at least for the last month. Do not give out wishful thinking.
  • Rus2012
    Rus2012 28 September 2013 20: 27
    0
    Quote: Tatarus
    And why the government now? You just think why he?

    The main thing is who will give them?
    They will give loans, with the condition of purchasing weapons from Euro partners;)))))))) And even lard ...
  • Rus2012
    Rus2012 28 September 2013 20: 25
    +1
    Quote: Akim
    . If Yanyk gives Timokha free rein

    Where will he go?
    In there will be a joke if she comes to Russia ...
    1. Russ69
      Russ69 29 September 2013 00: 02
      0
      Quote: Rus2012
      In there will be a joke if she comes to Russia ...

      Thank you, smile do not.....
  • Rus2012
    Rus2012 28 September 2013 20: 24
    0
    Quote: Genry
    The government will obey Brussels, and there are no competitors there.

    In almost all matters, for sovereignty is transferred to European officials ...
    1. Corneli
      Corneli 29 September 2013 05: 07
      +1
      Quote: Rus2012
      In almost all matters, for sovereignty is transferred to European officials ...

      Kindly, so as not to be "ordinary forum bababol", show the articles of laws (or something similar) where you got this information from. Congresses are not welcome. We are responsible for our pobrechenkand words.
  • Rus2012
    Rus2012 28 September 2013 20: 21
    +2
    Quote: apostol88
    If the government starts investing normally in the defense industry

    ... the EU will be opposed, this time. Two is the need to move to NATO standards, which means taking what they give. The best case for a Ukrainian is to produce cartridge boxes for the whole of NATO or toilets ...
    Does the experience of the Prebaldons, Poland, the Czech Republic really teach nothing? They already have no national industry left ... Don't you really believe?
  • Russ69
    Russ69 28 September 2013 23: 57
    +3
    Quote: apostol88
    If the government starts investing normally in the defense industry, then everything will be fine.

    You can invest when the result is visible. And the IMF, on whose loans Ukraine sits, will simply not give special investments.
  • VadimSt
    VadimSt 28 September 2013 16: 24
    +2
    All this dance is reminiscent of the fairy tale "About the turnip" - only Ukraine as a turnip. The EU is for the "turnip", the US is for the EU - no matter how the "turnip" is torn off the tops!
  • AVV
    AVV 28 September 2013 16: 31
    +6
    The people of Ukraine deserve a smarter leadership and government, but for now they only watch how the elite is enriching and withdraws money to the west, for themselves and their offspring !!! Tilki for themselves! And the people are on the drum !!!
    1. Genry
      Genry 28 September 2013 16: 56
      +2
      They have already made money, now this money can be squeezed behind the cordon, or even planted with Pasha Lozarenko. It all depends on the curvature of the deflection.
    2. apostol88
      apostol88 28 September 2013 17: 03
      +5
      The people deserve the government that chose! am I had most of my acquaintances for Janek, and you won’t prove to them, fool that he is in our country. And he thinks current about how to fill your pocket! request
      1. Akim
        Akim 28 September 2013 17: 07
        +3
        Quote: apostol88
        and you won’t prove that he’s in our country

        Something pulled me into politics. All parties put on the country. They only hide behind slogans.
        1. Tatarus
          Tatarus 28 September 2013 17: 39
          +3
          Quote: AVV
          The people of Ukraine deserve smarter leadership and government, but for now they are only watching


          Why just watching? Why does not go to the Maidan? Is the people sitting in their tongues stuck in the heat? Stupidity. It’s time for us to understand that Ukraine has the right to self-determination. So She decided. All without exception. If your neighbor decided to eat feces, let him eat. Just always keep dumplings ready for him. This is brotherly. Let them grow up on their own. We just wait.
          1. gyl
            gyl 29 September 2013 05: 39
            0
            Thank you, let's really wait a bit, remember how the WTO was afraid, and nothing, alive ...
        2. georg737577
          georg737577 29 September 2013 01: 58
          +1
          ... - Something attracted me to politics. All parties put on the country. They only hide behind slogans ....

          It’s really interesting, dear Akim, who gave you a minus for this statement?
          1. Akim
            Akim 29 September 2013 05: 38
            +2
            Quote: georg737577
            Who put you a minus for this statement?

            I do not know. Does it really matter? If I didn’t counterargument, but someone just got it - it’s not worth paying attention
      2. Corneli
        Corneli 29 September 2013 05: 10
        +3
        Quote: apostol88
        The people deserve the government that chose! am I have most of my acquaintances for Yanek, and you won’t prove to them, fool, that he should care about our country. And he thinks current about how to fill your pocket! request

        How would I agree ... only about which party or candidate, from the latter, could one say otherwise? There, unfortunately, everyone is almost the same. (If Yanyka were chosen in 2004, perhaps it would be different. And so ....
        1. gyl
          gyl 29 September 2013 05: 42
          0
          At 04 janek he also led us to NATO, do not remember, he sent troops to Iraq, then he brought him out. Countrymen, we may elect villains, but certainly not idiots, and if they vote with 380 votes for Europe, this is something.
          1. Akim
            Akim 29 September 2013 05: 50
            +2
            Quote: gyl
            At 04 janek he also led us to NATO, do not remember, he sent troops to Iraq,

            Not Yanyk, but Chuchma. The first was then only the prime minister. But we were still good friends with Russia. In general, they had almost 15% GDP growth. But someone did not want a strong Ukraine and Yusch came, by means of fraud.
            1. gyl
              gyl 29 September 2013 06: 20
              0
              Well, you take into account the causes and effects - that, in Ukraine, something was being built - no, basically China was being built, he was sold metal and fertilizers. Actually, this is called recovery growth, when the second shift is switched on at the plant, no new production was opened, plus salaries were scanty - at DMZ, the steel caster received 150 dollars,
              1. Akim
                Akim 29 September 2013 06: 29
                0
                Quote: gyl
                plus salaries were scanty - at DMZ, the steel caster received 150 dollars,

                And I got 500 hryvnias (100 bucks inf. For Russians) as an old man, and I had enough. The prices were completely different. A liter of homemade wine cost 2 hryvnia.
                1. Corsair
                  Corsair 29 September 2013 06: 50
                  +1
                  Quote: Akim
                  And I got 500 hryvnias (100 bucks inf. For Russians) as an old man, and I had enough. The prices were completely different. A liter of homemade wine cost 2 hryvnia.

                  In 1997, a Ukrainian miner at a state enterprise received 40 hryvnia a month (and so practically throughout the industry, remember the miner's "campaigns to Kiev"), since the rest of the salary was frozen and paid five (!!!!!!!!!) years, when inflation (Akim, you know what this is ???) devoured part of the debt ...
                  1. Akim
                    Akim 29 September 2013 06: 59
                    -1
                    Quote: Corsair
                    In 1997, a Ukrainian miner at a state-owned enterprise received 40 hryvnias per month (

                    This is nonsense. My parents in Donetsk have a miner neighbor (we have a common yard with him). So do not "shaggy grandma". Well received. True, they worked hard. There were delays - yes. So everyone had salary delays. My platoon commander, me a first-year cadet at the beginning of 96, asked him to help him with a part-time job.
                    1. Corsair
                      Corsair 29 September 2013 07: 06
                      +2
                      Quote: Akim
                      This is nonsense. My parents in Donetsk have a miner neighbor (we have a common yard with him). So do not "shaggy grandma". Well received. True, they worked hard.

                      And you tell me that, the then miner, who worked as an underground fitter at the mining site of the Sh / U named after 1go May P / O Shakhterskantratsit? Your impudence has no limits ...
                      Maybe your neighbor is the general director of the association?
                      1. Akim
                        Akim 29 September 2013 07: 14
                        -1
                        Quote: Corsair
                        And you tell me that, the then miner, who worked as an electrician underground mining site Sh / U them 1st May P / O Shakhterskantratsit

                        Maybe there were scanty salaries in Shakhtersk - I don’t know, but I can’t say that for Donetsk mines. Volga bought by a neighbor in those years (though the 21st, confirmation of this). 98th was bad when there was a default in Russia.
                      2. Corsair
                        Corsair 29 September 2013 07: 24
                        +1
                        Yes, learn to read at last!, SALARY IS FREEZED and only the miserable part is paid, if only I would not stretch my legs fool

                        Reread again the source (my comment) ...
                      3. Akim
                        Akim 29 September 2013 07: 30
                        0
                        Quote: Corsair
                        Yes, learn to read at last!, SALARY IS FREEZED and only the miserable part is paid

                        And I say again - not for such terms and not for everyone. It is possible at unprofitable mines.
                      4. Corsair
                        Corsair 29 September 2013 08: 28
                        +3
                        Quote: Akim
                        And I say again - not for such terms and not for everyone. It is possible at unprofitable mines.

                        All enterprises extracting ENERGY coals, I emphasize ENERGY, receive subsidies for production, because they are essentially unprofitable.
                        Because of this, if you remember, Margaret Thatcher paired up the liquidation of the UK coal industry.
                        Coking coal mines are self-sustaining or to a greater or lesser extent profitable. And I hope you understand what metallurgy is for Ukraine.

                        Hopefully explained clearly.
                      5. Akim
                        Akim 29 September 2013 08: 44
                        0
                        Quote: Corsair
                        All enterprises extracting ENERGY coals, I emphasize ENERGY, receive subsidies for production, because they are essentially unprofitable.

                        I put you a plus, because I did not take this into account. My oversight. But not all the miners only survived.
                        With regards to the current state, after the thermal power plants were transferred to coal, money was sent to them.
                      6. Corsair
                        Corsair 29 September 2013 09: 02
                        +2
                        Quote: Akim
                        With regards to the current state, after the thermal power plants were transferred to coal, money was sent to them.

                        Mine "Kommunar", worked directly "with abroad" - its fuel warehouse is packed with coal, there is no sales, so the mine does not work, people are on free vacations (until the owners accept the conditions below, probably).
                        The question is WHY? And all because the lads from the authorities had their eyes on a successfully working enterprise, blocked the possibility of concluding DIRECT contracts and FORCES to conclude contracts through an intermediary (a subsidiary of "someone there"). The result of the simplest manipulation is a million-dollar "margin" without any effort.
                        The trick is that the direct mine received from tons 1300 gr, and with the participation of an intermediary 900-800 fellow

                        And note the intermediary company is associated with the state.
                        You only dream to say:
                        THE STATE IS THIS, and Yanukovych has already implemented this idea for himself and the "family" ....
                      7. Akim
                        Akim 29 September 2013 09: 12
                        0
                        Quote: Corsair
                        The trick is that the direct mine received from tons 1300 gr, and with the participation of an intermediary 900-800

                        I don’t think it would be better with others. Even in the USSR, the engineer should have had high salaries. Not 120, but 400 rubles. What can we say about the worker with his high salaries. Just then, this difference went to social security, and now in the pocket of the bourgeoisie. The build needs to be changed, not the direction vector.
                      8. Corsair
                        Corsair 29 September 2013 09: 26
                        0
                        Quote: Akim
                        The build needs to be changed, not the direction vector.

                        So go to Ukraine (at your choice) in a REVOLUTION or EVOLUTION way ...
                        But in general, my comment was about something else and had a different message.

                        And the discussion was NOT about SALARY, but COST of sold products (coal) request
                      9. Akim
                        Akim 29 September 2013 09: 36
                        0
                        Quote: Corsair
                        And the discussion was NOT about SALARY, but COST of sold products (coal)

                        And as I understand it, the cost for the end consumer does not increase, but the mine earns less than a third.
                      10. Corsair
                        Corsair 29 September 2013 10: 00
                        0
                        That's right, the mine gets instead of 1300 UAH | T, 800-900UAH. The consumer receives the goods at 1300, the intermediary removes the "foam" (margin) in the amount of 500-400 UAH \ T ... and no fraud fellow
                2. gyl
                  gyl 30 September 2013 20: 31
                  +1
                  Well, do not be shy, say so Sasha Yanukovych squeezes the budget and business for themselves. And then (joyfully!) - I voted for Viktor Fedyrych! Julia stole everything! and feel better, I show you ..
          2. gyl
            gyl 30 September 2013 20: 27
            0
            There are no profitable state mines - all subsidized ...
  • Corsair
    Corsair 29 September 2013 07: 28
    0
    Quote: Akim
    So everyone had salary delays.

    You are aware that the mine-building departments of Donbass and still have salary arrears, sometimes up to 4 months.
    1. Akim
      Akim 29 September 2013 07: 34
      0
      Yes, in the know. So many have debts to the working people. Here is the plant to them. Malysheva is no exception.
  • Corsair
    Corsair 29 September 2013 07: 35
    +1
    Quote: Akim
    This is nonsense. My parents in Donetsk have a miner neighbor (we have a common yard with him). So do not "shaggy grandma"

    In the war under the Germans, they say, too, some were well arranged am
    1. Akim
      Akim 29 September 2013 07: 45
      +1
      Quote: Corsair
      In the war under the Germans, they say, too, some were well arranged

      Those. Do you compare a person who honestly works for his country with an accomplice of the Nazis? But how does your language turn, then judge Ukraine ?! Who would talk about the betrayal of their country! The USSR is not such a power. Modern Russia is the same bourgeois country as Ukraine. So you have changed both ideals and country.
    2. Corsair
      Corsair 29 September 2013 07: 56
      0
      Quote: Akim
      Those. Do you compare a person who honestly works for his country with an accomplice of the Nazis? But how does your language turn, then judge Ukraine ?!

      No need to juggle the hanging, you perfectly understood what was meant.
      Do not try to use any clue to turn the course of the dispute in your favor, look for "Arguments and Facts"wassat
    3. Akim
      Akim 29 September 2013 08: 02
      0
      Quote: Corsair
      You perfectly understood what was meant.

      I understood as I asked the question. I make good money (by local standards) + military pension, due to breakdown. Yes, I fully support communist ideas, but I will not vote for the Communist Party of Ukraine. It turns out that I am a traitor, since I settled down well?
    4. Corsair
      Corsair 29 September 2013 08: 17
      0
      Quote: Akim
      It turns out that I am a traitor, since I got a good job?

      Yes, understand at last. Until a certain point (the beginning of 2000x), in view of the widespread mess and corruption in the Ukrainian coal industry, it was generally possible to never work underground, buy underground experience, apply for regression payments for loss of health at work (silicosis, anthracosis, vibration disease and etc).
      On a slightly smaller scale and to this day the problem remains.
    5. Akim
      Akim 29 September 2013 08: 25
      0
      Quote: Corsair
      it was possible AT ALL to never work underground, buy underground experience, apply for regression payments for loss of health

      Of course there were and are. I was on examination, I lay in the ward with the Chernobyl victims and heard a lot about the pseudo-alumni. But I gave you an example of normal people who came from a "working family" and work honestly.
    6. Corsair
      Corsair 29 September 2013 10: 11
      0
      Quote: Akim
      But I gave you an example of normal people who left the "working family" and work honestly.

      And why should I believe you, if almost all of my comments on life situations, which I have experienced in my own skin, are trying to question and challenge.
    7. Akim
      Akim 29 September 2013 10: 24
      0
      Quote: Corsair
      all my comments on life situations that I experienced all on my own skin are trying to question and challenge.

      Well, not all. Where I missed, I agree. But you also write, so it seems that the problems are not with a separate team, but in the industry as a whole.
    8. Corsair
      Corsair 29 September 2013 10: 49
      0
      Quote: Akim
      But you also write, so it seems that the problems are not with a separate team, but in the industry as a whole.

      How much of that industry is left? In P \ O "minerskanthracite" out of (approximately) fifteen mines, THREE remained, and one of them was artificially "stuck" to the merger (re-subordinating).
      Mine "Shakhtyorskaya-Glubokaya", the former Komsomolsk All-Union Impact construction site and which has become the deepest coal mine in Europe, is technologically seriously ill and eats out a miserable existence (of the SEVEN possible planned mining lavas, there are only TWO, and what does this mean for a giant mine you will not understand) ...
    9. Akim
      Akim 29 September 2013 11: 24
      0
      Quote: Corsair
      How much is that industry left?

      Many - not many. Coal mining over the past three years has been growing significantly, given its previous decline from 90 years to 5 times! True, some mines are still closing.
    10. Corsair
      Corsair 29 September 2013 11: 55
      0
      Quote: Akim
      Quote: Corsair
      How much is that industry left?

      Many - not many. Coal mining over the past three years has been growing significantly, given its previous decline from 90 years to 5 times! True, some mines are still closing.

      You see a lot, a little empty sound for you, and behind this sound the TINY SUCH fates of your compatriots (1-3 thousand from each mine + processing plants), and, as a result, FATE OF THE COUNTRY.

      But say Ukraine, you are not indifferent ... request
    11. Akim
      Akim 29 September 2013 14: 57
      0
      Quote: Corsair
      an empty sound for you,

      Not empty. Just why should my soul hurt for something that I don’t understand? Here is my help and advice, like a goat’s milk ...
    12. Corsair
      Corsair 30 September 2013 01: 56
      0
      Quote: Akim
      Not empty. Just why should my soul hurt for something that I don’t understand? Here is my help and advice, like a goat’s milk ...

      And we have neither belmes nor those who think, and therefore "are not ill at heart" ...
  • gyl
    gyl 30 September 2013 20: 26
    0
    Well, akim, they paid badly then, badly.
    1. Akim
      Akim 30 September 2013 20: 30
      0
      Quote: gyl
      bad then paid, bad.

      Everyone was poorly paid, but paid.
  • gladiatorakz
    gladiatorakz 29 September 2013 11: 27
    0
    Quote: Akim
    And I got 500 hryvnias (100 bucks inf. For Russians) as an old man, and I had enough. The prices were completely different. A liter of homemade wine cost 2 hryvnia.

    At 97 m, if I’m not mistaken, the exchange rate was 1,8 UAH - 1 dollar. I do not remember the course for wine. In Bolgrad good drank it quite a bit in those days. Can this and I do not remember? laughing
    1. Akim
      Akim 29 September 2013 11: 41
      +1
      Quote: gladiatorakz
      At 97 m, if I’m not mistaken, the exchange rate was 1,8 UAH - 1 dollar.

      We started the conversation in 2004 and + 15% to GDP. This then moved out to the memories Corsair. And in Bolgrad my classmates drank wine and it was 2 times cheaper than milk. And I bought milk in 2000 (as a lieutenant) at 2,20-2,30 per liter (but not in Bolgrad).
    2. maxvet
      maxvet 29 September 2013 19: 52
      +1
      Quote: gladiatorakz
      Quote: Akim
      And I got 500 hryvnias (100 bucks inf. For Russians) as an old man, and I had enough. The prices were completely different. A liter of homemade wine cost 2 hryvnia.

      At 97 m, if I’m not mistaken, the exchange rate was 1,8 UAH - 1 dollar. I do not remember the course for wine. In Bolgrad good drank it quite a bit in those days. Can this and I do not remember? laughing

      In my opinion now your unit is not at all, first it was transferred to Kirovograd, and then it was completely disbanded, and it’s a pity the part was with history
      1. Akim
        Akim 29 September 2013 20: 33
        0
        Quote: maxvet
        your unit is not at all, first transferred to Kirovograd, and then completely disbanded,

        They transferred to Novvomskovsk and this team is still there. And in Bolgrad, now there is a separate airmobile battalion on armored personnel carriers. although mechanized troops are needed there.
        1. maxvet
          maxvet 29 September 2013 20: 52
          0
          I’m sorry, I’ve made a mistake not in Kirovograd, but in Novomoskovsk, but I didn’t hear about the airmobile battalion, but I read through Novomoskovsk that it was disbanded in 2003, explain this, the whole division was disbanded, or 25th Brigade?
      2. gladiatorakz
        gladiatorakz 29 September 2013 20: 51
        0
        Quote: maxvet
        In my opinion now your unit is not at all, first it was transferred to Kirovograd, and then it was completely disbanded, and it’s a pity the part was with history

        1 Airmobile Division was disbanded. (It was formed after section 98 of the Guards SVDd) It consisted of 25 Airborne Brigade, 45 AEMBr, artillery detachment in Vesy Kut. Well, and individuals.
        Quote: Akim
        They transferred to Novvomskovsk and this team is still there.

        And near Novomoskovsk - 25th VDBr. Probably for the Airborne Forces, all the same brigade formations are more combat-ready than division ones.
  • gyl
    gyl 30 September 2013 20: 24
    0
    Do not drink surrogates, there are excellent wines on sale.
  • Corsair
    Corsair 29 September 2013 07: 00
    0
    Quote: Akim
    Atom, we were still good friends with Russia. In general, they had almost 15% GDP growth. But someone did not want a strong Ukraine and Yusch came, by means of fraud.

    Move in the right direction, comrade! A little more and you will do it yourself good ) conclusion - WHO IT WAS NEEDED what
    1. Akim
      Akim 29 September 2013 07: 08
      0
      Quote: Corsair
      conclusion - WHO IT WAS NEEDED

      Then America - for an orange coup was arranged for her money. now a strong and independent Ukraine no one needs. We have to independently look for ways.
      1. Corsair
        Corsair 29 September 2013 07: 10
        0
        Quote: Akim
        We have to independently look for ways.

        Find loopholes fellow
        1. Akim
          Akim 29 September 2013 07: 20
          +1
          Quote: Corsair
          Find loopholes

          They correctly say: America’s greatest patriots are emigrants. You fled to Russia from a shitty life, and now you are trying to prove to everyone (including yourself) how you did it right then, and do not care about the rest. And we survived without your help.
          1. Corsair
            Corsair 29 September 2013 07: 49
            0
            Quote: Akim
            They correctly say: America’s greatest patriots are emigrants. You fled to Russia from a shitty life, and now you are trying to prove to everyone (including yourself) how you did it right then, and do not care about the rest. And we survived without your help.

            I left Ukraine as part of the program for the resettlement of compatriots, I still have a passport of Ukraine (I received a pension for it for some time in Ukraine, before settling any formalities).
            And about SURVIVED - DON'T EVERYONE THE GOP HAVE DID NOT LIKE
            1. Akim
              Akim 29 September 2013 07: 56
              0
              Quote: Corsair
              I left Ukraine as part of the compatriots resettlement program,

              My batiks did not leave for Greece. Well, if you were only born in the RSFSR, this justifies you.
              And as for the conclusions, a whole generation has grown up who were not born in the USSR. We can draw conclusions.
            2. Corsair
              Corsair 29 September 2013 08: 03
              0
              Quote: Akim
              And as for the conclusions, a whole generation has grown up who were not born in the USSR. We can draw conclusions.

              Neither Homeland nor Flag request
            3. Akim
              Akim 29 September 2013 08: 09
              0
              Quote: Corsair
              Neither Homeland nor Flag

              They have their homeland - Ukraine. Here we are in the 91st homeland. Only the state remains.
  • regsSSSR
    regsSSSR 29 September 2013 05: 43
    0
    Quote: Corneli
    Quote: apostol88
    The people deserve the government that chose! am I have most of my acquaintances for Yanek, and you won’t prove to them, fool, that he should care about our country. And he thinks current about how to fill your pocket! request

    How would I agree ... only about which party or candidate, from the latter, could one say otherwise? There, unfortunately, everyone is almost the same. (If Yanyka were chosen in 2004, perhaps it would be different. And so ....


    it’s a shame from Ukraine there were a lot of great science fiction writers very beloved in Russia, and I think you too (Dyachenko Lukyanenko Zorich) - the last tyk just broke the record for book sales!
    but with political (science fiction) well, a complete crisis)), moreover, from the very beginning of the collapse of the USSR to this day!
    1. Corneli
      Corneli 29 September 2013 06: 43
      +1
      Quote: regressSSSR
      but with political (science fiction) well, a complete crisis)), moreover, from the very beginning of the collapse of the USSR to this day!

      Well, why, they are very good at themselves ... both in terms of "marketability" and "popularity", where is Lukyanenko and Zorich going ...
  • alone
    alone 28 September 2013 17: 55
    0
    and the people of all power on the drum)))
  • I am a Russian
    I am a Russian 28 September 2013 21: 16
    0
    Quote: AVV
    The people of Ukraine deserve smarter leadership and government


    Most people on the planet deserve competent leadership, not only the people of Ukraine. It just gets a little different ...
  • Sergey_K
    Sergey_K 28 September 2013 17: 23
    -5
    There are no risks for the Ukrainian defense industry. As well as for the rest of the economy. Over the past 5-7 years of Russia's vicious policy, the Ukrainians have nothing to lose.
    Understand that after signing the association, it cannot become worse for the economy of Ukraine because Russia has already crushed Onishchenko, with sanctions, prices, quotas, what’s nowhere else to go. It can stay the same dicky or better. All. And in this lies the whole depravity of Russia's position. Ukraine is lost. But these are just flowers, wait a while there will be berries when Europe begins to twist Russia's hands.
    And horror stories and vysery on topvar are not interesting to anyone ...
    1. Rus2012
      Rus2012 28 September 2013 20: 34
      +3
      Quote: Sergey_K
      It can stay the same dicky or better.

      And you look at the neighbors Ukrainian-Bulgaria, Hungary. Type can it be worse. Can!
      In Bulgaria, electricity costs that even the middle class is not able to pay ...
      Look at Cyprus, Greece, Spain - down to civil servants. 30% of the population are unemployed. You think it will be better than theirs. Navny ...
  • knn54
    knn54 28 September 2013 17: 40
    0
    But do those in power need the military-industrial complex?
    Money from arms sales goes to the state budget, and large orders from the Ukrainian army are not observed. Indeed, the well-being of the Ukrainian defense industry, first of all, depends on the state defense order.
    It seems that the IM army is not needed ...
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 28 September 2013 19: 50
    +3
    Yes, alas, our Ukrainian. money bags & politicians, without any referenda, fraudulently went to bed under Europe. To me, living in Ukraine, this will not theoretically affect, but in practice sad And the Union’s military-industrial complex still relied on the entire Union, I remember meeting specialists from all the republics on sea trials. And now, our Ukrainian. factories of the military-industrial complex largely died out and were transformed into bazaars. It is a pity.
    1. gyl
      gyl 29 September 2013 05: 50
      0
      You’re a competent specialist, we’ll consider = there was an idea in the scoop - to get there a couple of weeks before the Lamansh, the military-industrial complex was imprisoned for this, but at least the strategy of the struggle for world domination was clear - explain why now you need to produce outdated equipment?
      1. Corsair
        Corsair 29 September 2013 06: 11
        0
        Quote: gyl
        , why now produce that amount of obsolete equipment?

        Do the very best if you can ...
        1. gyl
          gyl 6 October 2013 16: 06
          0
          We produce, Antonov and Artem, for example.
  • Blondin nikonov
    Blondin nikonov 28 September 2013 21: 19
    +2
    here we have problems up to our neck, but forever we climb to teach others, we must first clean our own ......
    1. Corsair
      Corsair 29 September 2013 07: 08
      0
      Quote: Blondin Nikonov
      here we have problems up to our neck, but forever we climb to teach others, we must first clean our own ......

      What's wrong with you in Iceland? laughing
  • APASUS
    APASUS 28 September 2013 21: 23
    +2
    It’s like playing football on a foreign field, Ukraine will face more than once problems. And it’s written correctly. No one is waiting for you in Europe. And even the price will not be an indicator. In Europe they eat French cheeses, drive German cars and they won oh, it’s not easy, you have to conquer the place with your teeth!
    1. Jogan-xnumx
      Jogan-xnumx 29 September 2013 00: 17
      0
      ... a place must be conquered with teeth!

      hi What teeth, my dear ?! Where did they come from Hohland? request Zh.opoy, sorry for straightforwardness, solely z.opoy will be won a place in this Wed goyrop by our corrupt rulers, coupled with thieves-oligarchs! am Moreover, cancer and with pants down in advance. Everyone knows and understands that no one is waiting for Ukraine in Europe, no one needs it there. ABSOLUTELY! ALL !!! The goal of geyropa and other mattress covers is to tear Ukraine away from Russia. By any means. And make it impossible to return. In order to somehow weaken Russia by this. ALL! A by-product - if they have already been torn off, then the good will not be lost ... They will use it as best they can, as a market for their trash, cheap rough labor (to clean the outhouse), a raw material appendage (which has not yet been asked for), "crush" competitors nefig get confused under the feet of their manufacturers) and "thrown out". Then - happy end ... negative
      It is unclear what guides our ruling degenerates? fool There is only one explanation - they have pinched the "tail" of their "hard-earned" capital that they are ready to lick their boots. lol You should not take into account nationally preoccupied morons, they from the patriotism to the gay people will not only lick their boots, but their asses to sterile cleanliness ... tongue
      1. gyl
        gyl 29 September 2013 05: 58
        0
        Not sts, patriot, we have already left, but let’s follow us .things to do, in the local markets, read the post at the top. the Chinese are riches out, and no one is pushing them, but why are you and I going to hurt, I see no reason, well, if you don’t bullish then ..
        1. Jogan-xnumx
          Jogan-xnumx 29 September 2013 10: 45
          -4
          Nah ... thanks. hi I somehow do not want to be a second-rate chaldean migrant worker at geyropa. Stomp there without me. They are definitely waiting there. There are many needs in the markets, but the Chinese respect themselves ... they don’t want to clean. No.
      2. gladiatorakz
        gladiatorakz 29 September 2013 11: 36
        +3
        Quote: Jogan-64
        Zh.opoy, sorry for directness, exclusively z.opoy will win a place

        Life hit you. Immediately see: swam - you know !. laughing
        1. Jogan-xnumx
          Jogan-xnumx 29 September 2013 13: 16
          -3
          Life hit you. Immediately see: swam - you know!

          Oh and don’t say, godfather! love How many such seducers around me hang around ..., their asses not sparing in geyropov. lol And you, too, pester ...
          1. gladiatorakz
            gladiatorakz 29 September 2013 15: 55
            +2
            Quote: Jogan-64
            How many such seducers around me hang around ..., their asses not sparing in geyropov. And you, too, pester ...

            I see you have a sore point? Does the topic hurt? A serious situation is being discussed, and is it necessary to show your ass-fucking picture of the world? Few homosexuals in Russia and Ukraine? Or maybe it's your own, darlings?
            The number of pid-s exceeds the number of gays. (I hope neither the first nor the second applies to you)
            I think that it’s not worth repeating their nonsense for some interested, dishonorable people. And then the comments are already imposed - a geyropa, etc. It is disgusting to read.
            1. Jogan-xnumx
              Jogan-xnumx 29 September 2013 18: 55
              -3
              I see you have a sore point? Does the topic hurt?

              Do not judge by yourself. There are also decent people on earth.
              A serious situation is being discussed, and is it necessary to show your ass-fucking picture of the world?

              The trouble is that this is not my "picture", but of such "noteworthy Europeans" as you, for example, (read my comment above) and which is impudently imposed on me.
              Serious situation, you say? Then who do you prefer to be recorded, parent number 1 or number 2? I prefer to be a father. Do you want to introduce the notorious juvenile justice in our country? To take your child away from you for reasons that were sucked out of your finger and pass it on for adoption to some pi.drama? This, for your information, is also Europe.
              I think that it’s not worth repeating their nonsense for some interested, dishonorable people.

              Do you think that you are the smartest here, and the rest are zombie ravings? Stupidly repeating everything, like parrots? And he himself at least once thought about the degree of his decency, coupled with his Eurobred? Try it once ...
              I have already expressed my opinion on these Eurodvizhniki. It's my opinion. And to such conclusions any more or less adequate person will be able to use eyes, ears and brains.
              Sorry, I won’t write, I’ll explain, this is already superfluous. Whoever is smart knows everything himself, but it is useless for a fool to prove something (I hope neither the first nor the second applies to you).
              It's disgusting to read.

              Do not read if it is disgusting. Better think about why the Ukrainian authorities are so stubbornly unwilling to appoint and hold a referendum on the EU and the EEA?
              1. gladiatorakz
                gladiatorakz 29 September 2013 19: 49
                +2
                Quote: Jogan-64
                Do not judge by yourself. There are also decent people on earth.

                Judging by you. Well, you love about assholes and homosexuals, decent.
                Quote: Jogan-64
                The trouble is that this is not my "picture", but such "noteworthy Europeans" as you, for example

                Got it? Blink more often.
                Quote: Jogan-64
                Do you think that you are the smartest here, and the rest are zombie ravings?

                There are literate, educated people here. But deb.ils is also enough. (no offense)
                Quote: Jogan-64
                Sorry, I won’t write, I’ll explain, this is already superfluous. Whoever is smart understands everything himself, but it is useless for a fool to prove something

                Well. You can when necessary !! I wrote it off, but still well done!
                1. Jogan-xnumx
                  Jogan-xnumx 30 September 2013 23: 01
                  -2
                  All clear. What to talk to you about "a discussion of serious issues"? One gossip. fool Serious topics are not for you, as you can see. Dostoevsky also wrote about you. So on the site of clowns you need, and not here ... Come. hi
    2. gyl
      gyl 29 September 2013 05: 55
      +1
      We do this, and we advise you. An example - ANTK Antonova, together with an American company, created the super-heavy air transportation market from scratch, though later cunning guys from Russia got in, gave money to our officials and squeezed out half the market.
      1. APASUS
        APASUS 29 September 2013 09: 55
        0
        Quote: gyl
        .Example - Antonov Antonov, together with an American company, from scratch created a market for super-heavy air transportation

        What market? Who created?
        Aircraft issued under the USSR combined under the American roof, and the ministers themselves already hang orders and at the same time you noodles !!!
        What Antonov now produces AN-124 or AN-225 ??? How much is the aircraft on the assembly slip?
        Do not hammer nonsense ......
        1. cooper
          cooper 29 September 2013 10: 23
          +2
          By the way, that’s not the point. All joint projects with Russia are covered with a copper basin. But you don’t want to, you start looking for partners in America (figuratively). And about the rubbish, Russia does not behave like a partner with anyone. so Europe is better with understandable rules than a vehicle with a demon aisle.
          1. APASUS
            APASUS 29 September 2013 11: 41
            -1
            Quote: Cooper
            , Russia does not behave like a partner with anyone. So it’s better to have Europe with understandable rules than a vehicle with a demon aisle.

            No need to be so naive!
            Whatever goals Europe has always declared its own economy is higher than that of its neighbor! What will make Europe raise the economy of Ukraine for the money of its taxpayers ???
            Is the example of Greece not indicative? The Greeks began to receive as in Europe, but the economy remained at the same level ........ where did the money come from?
            Loans must be given !!! Only Ukraine will be paid by its own land - there are practically no more stolen assets .........
            1. cooper
              cooper 29 September 2013 11: 53
              +3
              I don’t believe in fairy tales, but there are still laws and rules in Europe. We are talking about this. We have constant misunderstandings with Russia, we agreed to sign it and that’s the end. Like with cheaters, where the rules change during the game.
              1. APASUS
                APASUS 29 September 2013 13: 12
                0
                You won’t refuse the availability of laws to Europe for sure!
                But then you yourself saw on what conditions Ukraine enters Europe, a partner or a vassal?
                Look at the Baltic countries, where are their products in Europe, who needs Rīgas Melnais balzams, where are minibuses Rīgas Autobusu Fabrika, RAF, where are the receivers of the Radio Engineering plant, which European eat sprats? With what Ukraine will break a window to Europe?
                Antonov is a direct competitor to Airbus, Ukraine sells weapons only to countries that are not rich, say, how much can a country offer high-tech products ??
                Yes, she can’t fucking anymore, there were 10 factories in my city - there was only one left !!! So people stretched all over the world ........... Europe is waiting for you ?!
                1. Akim
                  Akim 29 September 2013 15: 15
                  +1
                  Quote: APASUS
                  in Europe, who needs Rīgas Melnais balzams, where are the minibuses Rīgas Autobusu Fabrika, RAF, where are the receivers of the Radio Engineering plant, which Europeans eat sprats? With what Ukraine will break a window to Europe?

                  The points
                  -zhsky balsam is drunk and treated with it (you and the Georgian "Borjomi" did not have it, but this does not mean that it is not for sale anywhere.
                  RAFmk really bent because it is impossible to make a minibus based on the nodes of the "Volga" without the nodes themselves
                  -Site "Radiotechnics: http://www.rrr.lv/ru
                  - sprats are a complete store, but they are not very, because they smoke in accordance with European standards. But under the vodka - will go
                  - have forgotten also refrigerators "Snayge". Here is a two-meter fool at home. For three years, not even a light bulb burned out.
                  1. APASUS
                    APASUS 29 September 2013 18: 40
                    0
                    [quote = Akim] [quote = APASUS] [/ quote]
                    I understand that you Akim already live in the EU, do not celebrate early?
                    Will you tell me where your Sniege is sold in Portugal or how many people in France are treated with Riga Balsam, in which studio in Europe are the Radio Engineering columns?
                    I can answer for you.
                    In Italy, goods from the former USSR are sold in special shops, and 99% of buyers are migrants !! For any West German, the phrase "Radiotekhnika", Riga Balsam "," Borjomi "does not mean anything at all.
                    The goods that appeared on the table of the Europeans, as they have ruled, have been eaten for decades and they have bought proven equipment, a place on the EU market costs more than one hundred tons of blood and sweat!
                    1. Akim
                      Akim 29 September 2013 18: 55
                      +1
                      Quote: APASUS
                      I understand that you Akim already live in the EU

                      No, I don't live there and I don't particularly strive there, but cited these answers with the aim that Lithuania and the entire Baltic region, after integration with the EU, did not become purely agrarian, as they paint in Russia and the cologne "Dzintars" is still sold. It doesn't matter where the sales markets are.
                      As for the "Snayge", they are not worse than the Belarusian "Atlants".
                    2. gyl
                      gyl 30 September 2013 19: 15
                      0
                      50% of Georgian wine is sold in Ukraine, another 30 - in Europe, after Onitsenko banned the import (and correctly banned, after the ban, the winemaking culture was steeply boosted). Yes, forbid our everything, and the sooner, the faster we will finally bustle over with energy efficiency and the right-western investors to start production. Get from Moscow, the scoop technological reserve ...
                2. gyl
                  gyl 30 September 2013 19: 09
                  -1
                  Damn, in the same place where the Volga GAZ-24, Lada - viburnum, and sticking a bucket of nuts .. Sprats are eaten by all Europeans issued according to European standards, without shit in the banks. Direct competitor Airbus is Boeing, but we will like your train of thought, the monsters need a bit of room. The home factories must die, and not transfer natural and labor resources - you know how post-soviet refineries are called oil spoiling plants in Europe and even in Belarus. It’s better to stand and cut it out in scrap metal than litter nature with your shit, and warehouses as products.
        2. gyl
          gyl 30 September 2013 18: 59
          0
          You talk nonsense, you’ve been infected with capitalism, and it makes sense to build air cargo if the existing ones are 50% loaded.
      2. Jogan-xnumx
        Jogan-xnumx 29 September 2013 10: 51
        +2
        We do this, and we advise you. Example-Antonov Antonov, together with an American company, from scratch created a market for super-heavy air transportation ...

        laughing May God grant our calves that wovka z'ist ...
        1. gyl
          gyl 30 September 2013 19: 22
          0
          The contract with NATO for transportation to Afghanistan - 2mln. dale . Interesting guys from Volga-Dnepr also took a bite, a private structure dissecting in the Russian Ruslans, with the help of the gangs from our government, stsuki ... Plus ANTONOV carries out regular commercial transportation, including and MRIIai. Clean services, not raw materials or semi-finished products.
  • Luna
    Luna 28 September 2013 22: 25
    0
    Quote: Sergey_K
    There are no risks for the Ukrainian defense industry.

    No, because there is no Ukrainian military-industrial complex as such either. Something is floundering here and there thanks to the work with Russia and the "modernization" of Soviet tanks. By the way, recently the United States offered denyuh to Ukraine to destroy the still impressive tank arsenal of Soviet times.

    Quote: Sergey_K
    Over the past 5-7 years of Russia's vicious policy, the Ukrainians have nothing to lose.

    There are many. And they understand this, so when Azarov is told for the thousand-hundredth time that Ukraine is preparing for a reduction in trade, Azarov turns on the "fool" and announces that (I quote) "President Yanukovych's proposed 3 + 1 formula EARNED" And this is the day after and how Ukraine closed local BCPs at the border in order to allegedly fight against the alleged African swine fever. However, Kiev is not particularly hiding that this is a kind of "response" to the August "trade war" of Russia and pork. Russia supplies Ukraine with such a minuscule amount that it is not even reflected in the reports of the State Statistics Service.
    This is one side of the coin.
    And the second - it is not for nothing that the EU and the US "cannot eat" as much as they do not like Russia's statements about future trade with Ukraine according to GENERAL rules. They are looking forward to a big Ukrainian-Russian hole through which they can drive their products. But the main thing is that THEY DO NOT EXPECT TO FEED UKRAINE UNTIL IT ADDICTES EUROPEAN VALUES, this honorable duty should remain with Russia. In this context, Ukraine also hopes that the EU will force Russia to trade in the old way.

    Quote: Sergey_K
    Understand that after signing the association, it cannot become worse for the economy of Ukraine because Russia has already crushed Onishchenko, with sanctions, prices, quotas, what’s nowhere else to go.

    Then there is where and ... read above.
    What Russia did BEFORE the association of Ukraine will be remembered as a golden time.

    Quote: Sergey_K
    there will still be berries when Europe begins to twist Russia's arms.

    Europe has a trade turnover with Russia of 200 billion, so this double-edged sword in Europe and even under the conditions of the state of the European economy will hit with no less force. Is it Merkel? It is clear that of these 200 billion. the lion's share is not traded with Poland but the Baltic states.
    1. Shkodnick
      Shkodnick 29 September 2013 02: 42
      +1
      Quote: Luna

      And the second - it is not for nothing that the EU and the US "cannot eat" as much as they do not like Russia's statements about future trade with Ukraine according to GENERAL rules. They are looking forward to a big Ukrainian-Russian hole through which they can drive their products. But the main thing is that THEY DO NOT EXPECT TO FEED UKRAINE UNTIL IT ADDICTES EUROPEAN VALUES, this honorable duty should remain with Russia. In this context, Ukraine also hopes that the EU will force Russia to trade in the old way.

      100% logical conclusion !!!
    2. gyl
      gyl 29 September 2013 06: 05
      -1
      I’m disappointing you very much - what ukrdyrka, you have 50% turnover with Europe - you have been successfully trading without us for a long time, even under better conditions than with us, we sometimes get European booze through Russia - cheaper. But on our market if you’re empty, you’ll have to go according to European rules - and it’s you who will have to deliver not sucks like VAZ products, but what meets European standards, well, but we should look for loot for purchases - either yours to buy, or European - excellent can not be cheap ...
      1. Corneli
        Corneli 29 September 2013 06: 40
        +2
        Quote: gyl
        But on our market, it’s small, you’ll have to go according to European rules - and it’s you who will have to deliver not the type of VAZ products that sucks, but what meets European standards, well, but we will look for loot for purchases - whether it’s yours to buy, or European - excellent can't be cheap ...

        Well ... with a VAZ, a problem can really arise ... cars from Europe will become cheaper, and Russia, on the contrary, will begin to block the border (including for itself) ... having to change European carriages ...
        1. maxvet
          maxvet 29 September 2013 09: 41
          0
          Quote: Corneli
          .. to get on European carriages to change.

          ZAZ will probably suffer more from this than VAZ
          Quote: gyl
          and it’s you who will have to supply us not sucks type of products

          Do not buy sediment such as a VAZ, but as you yourself said:
          Quote: gyl
          look for loot for purchases - whether your to buy, or European - excellent can not be cheap.
          1. Akim
            Akim 29 September 2013 10: 13
            +1
            Quote: maxvet
            ZAZ will probably suffer more from this than VAZ

            Hardly. ZAZ and so after the Russian disposal fee is sold only in the domestic market
            1. maxvet
              maxvet 29 September 2013 20: 00
              0
              After all, Ukraine collects some kind of duty on the import of used foreign cars (I don’t know exactly in numbers - I heard about 15%, but I could be mistaken), respectively, if you remove this duty, ZAZ will have a harder time than now. The parents had the first car ZAZ968M, I He has the warmest memories (unlike my father). It will be really a pity that ZAZ workers will be left without work, ZAZ needs to produce a "people's car" like VAZ by the way
              1. gyl
                gyl 30 September 2013 19: 38
                0
                AvtoZAZ workers are already dragging beggarly coexistence - s.p. for a full day - 150-200 dollars. In the case of the opening of a car market with Europe and the lifting of the ban on the import of used cars, a huge number of service stations will open, for car maintenance. Europeans get rid of grounded cars because of the cost of maintaining them in working condition - an average of 3000 euros per year for a car removed from the guarantee, mainly the cost of a car fitter. We sn 10 times less, therefore, the content of the car will be somewhere around 300 euros per year. With increasing sn and interest in avtorahlyaem (in European terms) will fall ..
                1. Akim
                  Akim 30 September 2013 19: 46
                  0
                  Quote: gyl
                  In case of opening a car market with Europe and lifting the ban on the import of used cars,

                  A 10-year transitional period is envisaged and no-one will cancel it, and insurance for their age will increase - which is bad on the one hand.
                  1. gyl
                    gyl 1 October 2013 00: 46
                    0
                    No, I don’t think so - the Poroshenko Russian brothers will squeeze them again in a joyful embrace, and he will exchange car duties - prohibitive - to open the euro market for agricultural products .. Yes, and we often have elections, but there are a lot of motorists, someone will throw a cry - you give cheap and cool cars ...
                    1. Akim
                      Akim 1 October 2013 06: 31
                      +1
                      Quote: gyl
                      No, I don’t think so - the Rassian brothers Poroshenko will once again squeeze in a joyful embrace, and he will exchange car duties - prohibitive - for opening the euro market for agricultural products

                      Vasadze has a very strong lobby in parliament. Long ago, markets would open.
      2. Luna
        Luna 30 September 2013 00: 37
        -1
        gyl, I’ll enlighten you a little, although I'm tired of writing the same thing. We will trade with Ukraine precisely according to the rules of Europe, and not the FTA of the CIS, which everyone in Ukraine is afraid of, starting with Azarov.
        1. gyl
          gyl 30 September 2013 19: 46
          0
          Yes, we have no place for enlightenment — well, there are no preferences now, we already have a free trade zone with the CIS countries, Russia alone has surrounded this zone with so many exceptions and exceptions that it’s more profitable for us to buy gas in the West, and given that , due to the fucking democratic processes, and in short, frantic election populism, the population pays for 1000 cubic meters of gas - about $ 90, in the same Russian population the same population - 4000 rubles. And what can you offer us?
  • crambol
    crambol 28 September 2013 22: 28
    +3
    Only a blindly deaf and dumb politician is not able to understand that the Ukrainian impotent rotten production base may be of interest to the West. His task is simple as an orange - to split Ukraine from Russian influence. But what about the population? And let it die out! It fulfilled its role of extras on the Maidan.
  • crambol
    crambol 28 September 2013 22: 41
    +1
    Quote: Sergey_K
    Understand that after signing the association, it cannot become worse for the Ukrainian economy

    Sergey_KDo you know how an optimist differs from a pessimist? The pessimist says - It can't be worse! And the optimist - Well, you, my friend, will be even worse!
  • Old skeptic
    Old skeptic 28 September 2013 23: 00
    0
    Che Ukraine, that and ensign at her hand, and wrap shikiru ... and further on.

    Only what will you do if everything is covered with a geyropa (rhyme)?

    Well, really, what are you going to do?
    1. Shkodnick
      Shkodnick 29 September 2013 02: 50
      0
      It will be more relevant if the people themselves ask yanyka about this now. Demanding a referendum on "association" with the EU.
  • cooper
    cooper 28 September 2013 23: 50
    +3
    And why do we need enemies if all of Russia is friends.
    1. Old skeptic
      Old skeptic 29 September 2013 00: 05
      0
      Someone already wrote here, in a few years we will return to this conversation and discuss who is who, and who is where (the latter can be replaced by a rhyme).

      I sincerely wish the brothers good luck.
      Shoot, so shoot
      I wave to them.
      1. Akim
        Akim 29 September 2013 05: 41
        +1
        Quote: Old Skeptic
        Someone already wrote here, in a few years we will return to this conversation and

        But do not forget?
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. Akim
            Akim 29 September 2013 06: 18
            +2
            Quote: Corsair
            You remind you whine and howl ...

            I? As they say in Odessa - do not wait.
            1. Corsair
              Corsair 29 September 2013 08: 01
              -2
              Quote: Akim
              I? As they say in Odessa - do not wait.

              You are not Ukraine. Or the state is me?
              1. Akim
                Akim 29 September 2013 08: 05
                +2
                Quote: Corsair
                Or is the state I?

                I would like to wassat Bad is the soldier who does not dream of becoming a general.
            2. Old skeptic
              Old skeptic 29 September 2013 18: 21
              0
              Let's see.
        2. Corsair
          Corsair 29 September 2013 06: 13
          -1
          Quote: Akim
          But do not forget?

          You remind you whine and howl ...
        3. Old skeptic
          Old skeptic 29 September 2013 18: 20
          0
          Someone on one side or the other will remind you of a stingy.
  • Zomanus
    Zomanus 29 September 2013 00: 50
    0
    Something I do not see news about the mass protests in Ukraine against joining the EU. So people are happy with everything. Well, either people think that they will give them the opportunity to try European life and choose. But figs to you. guys.)) If you get too fast, then in full. But when the Ukrainians howl and take up arms, then Russia should intervene.
    1. Shkodnick
      Shkodnick 29 September 2013 02: 57
      0
      At one time we (Russians) behaved the same way when we entered the WTO.
  • The comment was deleted.
    1. Shkodnick
      Shkodnick 29 September 2013 03: 00
      +1
      I can understand if you are talking about Ukrainian power. But the people are the same as we are in Russia ... it’s not so about everyone.
    2. windjoker
      windjoker 29 September 2013 15: 18
      +3
      Yuri P (I hope the rest of the letters are not idar), Residents of Ukraine and Russia have common roots - and it’s not for you to judge the decisions of Ukrainians. Your power crushed everything under you and bombarded you. and sane citizens see that European values ​​are better than thieves mess ...
      1. Htuek
        Htuek 29 September 2013 19: 06
        0
        Please list the values.
        For whom they work and how too.
        About power here and here, too, in more detail.
        And the most interesting thing is to look at the broadcasting grid of the RF channels and the EES channels.
        Then back to the topic of zombies.
        1. windjoker
          windjoker 30 September 2013 00: 19
          +1
          I list: Inviolability of private property, copyright,
          strict observance of laws by the authorities and citizens, social security (pensioners of Europe are traveling all over the world, and ours are only going to the market, and perhaps to the dacha) ... Still to continue, or is this enough for now? winked So wise guy, from the beginning work there, live to understand what has been said.
          1. windjoker
            windjoker 1 October 2013 20: 07
            0
            http://politobzor.net/5587-gde-luchshe-vsego-zhivetsya-starikam.html
            Russia took 78th place in the Global Age Watch Index, compiled by the charity organization Help Age International, in the ranking of living standards of older people. This was reported on the official website of the organization. She passed Belarus, Ukraine and Poland. The Russian Federation was among countries such as Moldova, Nepal, Laos, Cambodia and Honduras.
  • EGORKA
    EGORKA 29 September 2013 07: 54
    +1
    This Ukrainian topic was bullied, let them do what they want and we will do as we need and that's it.
  • major071
    major071 29 September 2013 09: 10
    +5
    I would like the bad soldier who does not dream of becoming a general.
    I hope, after the integration of Ukraine into Geyropa, this phrase will not sound in a new way: The soldier who does not dream of sleeping with the general is bad.
    1. Akim
      Akim 29 September 2013 09: 16
      +2
      Quote: major071
      Bad is the soldier who does not dream of sleeping with the general.

      What is stopping him now? It all depends on morality. Perverts in modern Ukraine and Russia and so full.
      1. windjoker
        windjoker 29 September 2013 15: 40
        +2
        The traffic policeman perplexedly stopped the Mercier of the Ministry of Internal Affairs for speeding. Tinted windows fall, and in the back seat a prostitute does a blow job to the general.
        Well-done general lieutenant, not afraid to stop, you are doing good service. What to thank you for the service?
        ....
        General - join the lieutenant.
        Lieutenant - No, thanks, I disdain after her ...
      2. gyl
        gyl 30 September 2013 19: 57
        0
        There are Russian studies that 50% of Muslim men had homosexual connections - well, they had the same Cossacks, if that ... And the Russian prison - they only consider raped homosexuals, and godfathers and thugs are normal boys, respected in society and carriers, ,, traditional values ​​,,
    2. gyl
      gyl 30 September 2013 19: 52
      0
      Oh, European values ​​postulate that homosexual homosexuals are rooted by mutual consent and desire, and in Orthodox Russia the Dagi of the Cossacks are raped mercilessly and regularly. Truncated the difference, preoccupied?
  • Cherdak
    Cherdak 29 September 2013 14: 29
    0
    Quote: Akim
    The T-50 was also once in the model version. Political decision made. Deadlines for scrap metal Su-22 - 2018. So count


    Warsaw Institute of Technology of the Air Force resuscitated a 1960 project called Grot ... At the moment, the fate of the project has not been exactly decided. http://planetavvs.ru/novosti/polysha-vedet-razrabotku-legkogo-istrebitelya-grot-
    2-natsionalynoy-postroyki.html
  • Sashko07
    Sashko07 29 September 2013 15: 08
    +5
    Quote: Tatarus
    Yes, Ukraine is already good at convincing. Made a choice? FREE. She wants to bend herself; she wants to be part of Europe.

    And before you write such garbage, did not you think why every year more and more Ukrainian citizens who supported Russia in every way are now spitting in your direction, to put it mildly? Perhaps because of the fact that in 22 years of independence, almost all the troubles in the form of unexpected crises, economic falls are due to the "dumb as a ram" policy of Russia towards Ukraine. Yes, of course, we do not live well, first of all because of our government, starting with Kravchuk, you cannot argue with that, but as soon as something starts to improve more or less, Russia will definitely fit in with some next increase in gas prices, or a ban to purchase our products.

    Why does the cheese that everyone eats, suddenly you turn out to be some kind of, why the candies that we give our children without fear, why do you turn out to be almost a deadly chemical?

    Maybe if there was less pressure from Russia in our country, they would treat you better and would not go into this very EU. And this is how a simple Ukrainian looks and thinks: - why do I need such a Russia, why do I need such a big brother if he begins to suffer with such garbage for and without reason. What difference does it make in the EU or in the TS, you will still muddy the waters, because someone has an itch in the back hole, called "imperial ambitions".

    Or maybe your people live much better than in the same gayevrope? The salary can be higher, the level of medicine, drug addiction and alcoholism can you not? I strongly doubt this, because Russia is rotten, whose disease is "corruption". And the fact that you have Putin who does at least something for the country will not help you until this very corruption disappears, just like we do. So a simple h.o.h.o.l chooses where to go, and unfortunately more and more they want to go somewhere, but not to "big brother".
    1. Gecko
      Gecko 29 September 2013 15: 54
      -2
      Quote: Sashko07
      but as soon as something begins to improve more or less with us, Russia will certainly fit in with some sort of regular increase in gas prices, or a ban on the purchase of our products.

      You speak very funny or very inappropriate.
      Gas was supplied to you for 15 years at 50 USD; it began to rise to world prices only when the Ukrainian leadership openly pursued an anti-Russian policy.
      Your products (except for sweets of dubious content) have not been banned by anyone else.
      Your problem and that of the majority of the Ukrainian people is that without going into details, they perceive at face value the statements of politicians that Russia is still to blame for all troubles.
      What's the problem?
      1) Buy gas from the EU
      2) Sell your goods in the EU
      The problem is that you still think that Russia owes you something!
      1. Akim
        Akim 29 September 2013 16: 15
        +1
        Quote: gecko
        Gas was supplied to you for 15 years at 50 USD; it began to rise to world prices only when the Ukrainian leadership openly pursued an anti-Russian policy.

        Are you not tired of telling this tale about the cheapness of energy? World prices were low. For example, Poland received gas at 65 bucks in 2002, so before Poland two and a half thousand miles more. Gasoline then they cost 1,6 zlotys = 0,5 dollars = 2., 6 UAH per liter. A little more expensive than in Ukraine (at that time, the 92nd was 1,9-2 UAH each). Another thing is that Yulino government poher..lo a lucrative contract.
        1. Gecko
          Gecko 29 September 2013 18: 11
          +1
          Heh is not successful. You gave an example, if in Poland there was 65 USD, this does not mean that it received gas at an underestimated price. The market price in 2002 was around 125 USD
          If we trace the dynamics of the average gas price since 1991, then on average Russia sold Ukraine gas 2 times cheaper than the average world gas price.

          In March 2005, the newly appointed chairman of the Naftogaz Ukrainy SJSC, Aleksey Ivchenko, suggested Gazprom to review tariffs for the transit of Russian gas to Europe through Ukraine. On March 29, Ukraine proposed increasing transit tariffs from 2006 to $ 1,75–2 / thousand. m³ per 100 km.

          In response, on July 6, 2005 Gazprom agreed to raise the tariff, but linked it with a rise in gas prices from $ 50 to the average European level ($ 160-170 / thousand m³)
          1. Akim
            Akim 29 September 2013 18: 29
            0
            I can also give a picture where the price of spot gas on the London Stock Exchange is 110 bucks. But where is London, and where is Warsaw.
            And what the Kozlys did from the government of Yulia (got into trouble with an interpreter) is shame and disgrace for them. But the two countries began to fight much earlier, before Yush came. Remember Tuzla. I agree, gas was cheaper, but not enough to kick them.
            1. Gecko
              Gecko 29 September 2013 18: 46
              0
              And why did you bring the table with the price for the British thermal unit (BTU)?
              Here you still need to recount everything, because one thousand cubic meters of natural gas contains 35800000 million BTU. Most break-ins. I have a price table not of England, but of world average market prices and more immediately in cubic meters.
              At that time, gas in Europe was more expensive than in England, so it became more profitable for English companies to sell gas to Europe, after which the cost of gas even in England began to rise.
              You are angry for Tuzla, but Tuzla remained with you, but you don’t hold anything evil in Romania for the loss of part of the territory.
              1. Akim
                Akim 29 September 2013 19: 00
                0
                Quote: gecko
                You are angry for Tuzla, but Tuzla remained with you, but you don’t hold anything evil in Romania for the loss of part of the territory.

                Not angry - just reminding. And I am angry with Romanians and even more with Yushch.
                1. Gecko
                  Gecko 29 September 2013 19: 15
                  0
                  Since 1990 and Ukraine’s becoming "independent" by virtue of the agreements on the creation of the CIS, gas prices have practically corresponded to domestic Russian prices. During the presidency of Ukraine in Ukraine, L. Kuchma in 2003, Russia and Ukraine concluded a long-term agreement until 2013, in which the gas price was fixed at $ 50 per thousand m3, although a quite adequate tariff for pumping gas through Ukraine was set at 1,09 per thousand m3 per 100 km. If we compare gas import prices in Ukraine and gas prices in Germany for a 20-year period according to the figure, it can be seen that in total Ukraine’s economy was subsidized by a gas price difference of about $ 70-80 billion.

                  2011: Vice Prime Minister of Ukraine Tigipko said that the cost of Russian gas exceeds $ 500 per thousand m3. However, according to NAK Naftogaz Ukrainy, the price of Russian gas spoiled to the country is 1 square meter. was $ 264, in the second $ 2, in the third $ 297.
                  1. Akim
                    Akim 29 September 2013 19: 25
                    +2
                    Quote: gecko
                    . If we compare gas import prices in Ukraine and gas prices in Germany for a 20-year period according to the figure, it can be seen that in total Ukraine’s economy was subsidized by a gas price difference of about $ 70-80 billion.

                    And why do you compare prices for Ukraine and Germany, to which it is more than 3000 kilometers? So the transit tariff was divine. Hand hand soap.
                    1. Gecko
                      Gecko 29 September 2013 20: 46
                      0
                      Following your logic, overcoming 3000 km from Ukraine to Germany costs 50 USD, but you forget that the gas supply through Russia from fields to the border with Ukraine is also about 3000 km i.e. should cost the same 50 USD, it turns out that according to your reasoning, gas is generally free.
                      1. Akim
                        Akim 29 September 2013 20: 57
                        0
                        Quote: gecko
                        with Ukraine, too, about 3000 km i.e. should cost the same 50 USD,

                        50-60 bucks is the base price of gas then. The same production cost in Ukraine and Turkmenistan. Somehow this issue was decided. Ukraine consumed 50 billion cubic meters of Russian gas, and pumped 200 kopecks for a penny. There, like half of the consumed volume, Ukraine received barter.
                      2. The comment was deleted.
                2. gyl
                  gyl 30 September 2013 20: 20
                  0
                  Yeah, in the holy Orthodox spirit, gas is supplied to Europe, yeah, plus- the cheaper the cost of gas, the more striking the cost of transit. That's where the subsidy from Gazprom comes from. Yes, everything was paid - both transit and underground gas storage facilities ...
              2. Corsair
                Corsair 29 September 2013 20: 54
                0
                Quote: Akim
                Not angry - just reminding. And I am angry with Romanians and even more with Yushch.

                If only your anger would not become similar to that described in the joke:

                Two godfathers are sitting in a trench, tanks are advancing;
                One KUM says to ANOTHER - something in the trench G ***. Does it mean you aren’t sleeping for an hour?
                And he answers: Tse I vid luto hate laughing
              3. gyl
                gyl 30 September 2013 20: 16
                0
                Che is angry with the Romanians - Ukraine got the territory more than the scoop left, they just raised it properly, so that it would be easier for the Romanians to inform their population about the “victory”. Yes, we lost it in PR - well, it was necessary for the Party of Regions to mock at the orange, but they won in the shelf. But Snake Island is still a rock, since there are no own sources of water, and he stayed with Ukraine, plus the Romanian fool took the shelf ...
                1. Akim
                  Akim 30 September 2013 20: 22
                  0
                  Quote: gyl
                  But Snake Island is still a rock, because there are no own sources of water,


                  This is a rock, but there is a well there and after the trial 2/3 of the shelf was lost. I do not care who was at the helm in Romania. Our laughed, although he could not give, but to do as in the 95th Chuchma.
                  1. gyl
                    gyl 1 October 2013 00: 53
                    0
                    they carry water in a tanker, a well - for show-offs, and in order to be adopted in a decent society, demanding to comply with the laws of this society - and recognize that the serpent is a rock. There are a lot of debris sticking out in the oceans, but they agreed not to hold them for the islands - and most of all such ROCKs in Great Britain, what, a bad country? and doesn’t pretend to be offshore at its rock.
            2. gyl
              gyl 30 September 2013 20: 12
              +1
              Yeah, the whole world believes in BTU. , only we buy meters for no one knows what - the host declares a huge tolerance for calorific value, here we will finally introduce the European standards, stop stopping us from boiling nitrogen ...
        2. gyl
          gyl 30 September 2013 20: 08
          0
          Oh well - and here we have VV Putin broadcasting that gas is tied to the oil market - and when did the oil production start, wouldn't it be in 2005 ...
      2. Luna
        Luna 30 September 2013 00: 40
        0
        Why don’t you remember about re-export? Ukraine already received gas at Yushchenko at 95 dollars, and Romania sold at 230. And Romania, for some reason, did not shout about robbery on a high road.
        And it’s not Yulino’s government by ... but by personal order that Yushchenko went to terminate Ivchenko’s contract, taking an interpreter.
        1. Akim
          Akim 30 September 2013 06: 41
          +1
          Quote: Luna
          and Romania sold at 230. And Romania, for some reason, did not shout about robbery on the highway.

          Do you read Romanian? I envy kindly since I can’t master this language. If Romania bought cheaper gas from Ukraine than Russia sold, this is her right. And the gas was not of purely Russian origin. He mixed with cheaper Ukrainian gas. Why is Gazprom now pushing the same showings neither Germany nor Hungary, which are actively trading in gas with Ukraine?
        2. gyl
          gyl 1 October 2013 00: 59
          -1
          You are a Russian, and it’s hard for you to imagine that we still had a coalition government. And then Julia was not related to oil and gas, and Ivchenko is like that, well, Ragozin is stupid - there are a lot of furs, and under the guise of a furs, real boys, on both sides, screw up the cashboxes. The difference with the current government is striking - we don’t sell our handouts for nothing, they don’t want to scam the whole country without a wow, and Europe is their defense in this.
          1. Akim
            Akim 1 October 2013 06: 36
            0
            Quote: gyl
            And then Julia was not related to oil and gas

            Premier did not have access? This information refers to the subsection of a two-room hrushcha in the Dnieper.
            1. gyl
              gyl 1 October 2013 14: 44
              -1
              And what surprises you is that Julia is not a yanyk, she was a prime minister in the coalition pr-ve of the presidential republic. Yes, as for the crush, no other property has been found yet - about the mezhigiry, I hope I heard that the crush was arrested by court order. What does not fit in the head?
              1. Akim
                Akim 1 October 2013 16: 01
                0
                Quote: gyl
                And what surprises you - Julia is not a yanyk, she was a prime minister in the coalition pr-ve of the presidential republics

                You so zealously defend Julia? Are you not her relative? VONA was the prime minister in the parliamentary-presidential republic, where Yusch had less rights than her. As for the Khrushchev, no one arrested her, because it was not her personal property, but part of this apartment belonged to her husband, whom no one had filed criminal cases, as he says. He escaped and bought a good house in the Alps. Drive along the Dnieper and look at the relatives of Khatyn. If all our teachers lived in two-story mansions, I would have believed in communism on Earth. And she is not Yanyk. I do not defend him and he is not my type of President, but at least he doesn’t build a rogue from himself, like this woman. A thief should sit in jail! If all thieves are planted together with her, including Fedorovich, it will be right. But you have to start with someone.
      3. gyl
        gyl 30 September 2013 20: 04
        -1
        Yulino’s government was not sick at all, she was already retired. Yekhanurov, from the supply of the yushch and the Rosukrenergo group (50% -Gazprom) - started this barrel organ - look who profited from this - who knew Firtash before that? Don’t be naive, there aren’t any bruises and bruises, this is all one united oligarchic group, and when Yushchara Shoto fucked Russia, it was clear that everything was agreed with RossUkr.
        1. Akim
          Akim 30 September 2013 20: 14
          0
          Quote: gyl
          Yulino’s government was not sick at all, she was already retired.

          Julia was removed on September 8 - on the day of the liberation of Donbass, and negotiations began with her.
          1. gyl
            gyl 1 October 2013 01: 20
            -1
            Then Yulia was not allowed to engage in gas affairs. Ivchenko is a huckster purely Yushchenko, yes, they smartly harnessed with the firtash, and remember - in RossUkrEnero - 50% Gazprom, i.e. - there was no war, under the heart-rending squeals from both sides to the Ukrainian market - the internal one - Gazprom crawled, and RUE officially resold Turkmen gas, but they took it at a price I don’t remember how low it was, like it was transported through Russia, which was not required, but Turkmen they consumed in the south of Russia, and they drove Yamal to us and to Europe, but as if in exchange for Turkmen - this is the secret of the gesheft, until China built a gas pipeline and took away Turkmen gas. After Vova, these schemes became uninteresting, with a lawyer and manager, and he posed the burning question - do not steal with me, you buy from me. Toka Julia was able to match the moment, but then she lost the presidency, and Yanyk pinned to Vova with an old song - let's steal together and amicably. He was told - buy, sabaka, at the market price, like Julia. Yanuk did not believe it, he really looked for a long time where Julia brought the rollback from the cut. I didn’t believe for a long time, I drove her through the dungeons until he realized that this is the way they didn’t take them to share, and I’m also urging him - dengi, come on! and all our leaders understood that everything, alles, they are dairy cows, not accomplices, and said - aah, say, Vova, let's honestly, without joint rubbing, trade?. And ours - so we tell you that in Europe if honestly, it will be better for us, there is order, and our capital is more comfortable there. Well, somewhere like that.
    2. windjoker
      windjoker 1 October 2013 20: 15
      +1
      In June, Ukrainian Prime Minister Mykola Azarov said that the gas that Ukraine buys from the German RWE is $ 100 cheaper than gas from the Russian company Gazprom. The average annual price for Russian gas, set in the state budget for 2013, is $ 421 per thousand cubic meters.
      Read more here: http://www.unian.net/news/596187-ukraina-uvelichit-zakupki-gaza-v-evrope-do-2-mi
      lliardov-kubov.html
  • Igwin
    Igwin 29 September 2013 20: 43
    -1
    So they would bring down to Europe ... why the hell are you climbing into Russia since it’s not right for you .... grew up in Yamal ... percent 30% .... and drag relatives to the seventh generation
    1. gyl
      gyl 1 October 2013 01: 27
      -1
      So our almost homeland is there - the Cossacks conquered Siberia, but took root, and we started producing oil and gas quite a while ago, there were no Yamal deposits (we developed them), and Moscow was heated with gas from Ukraine. And they would have left this Kh.O. Kh.L. of the O-Mansi Autonomous Okrug, so squeezed out, drunkards, fisheries fill up, who will build an energy empire.
      1. Corsair
        Corsair 6 October 2013 14: 51
        -1
        Quote: gyl
        and Moscow was heated with gas from Ukraine

        Aren't you lying too much, "specialist"?
        Wasn't Moscow "heated" with Saratov gas?
        1. Akim
          Akim 6 October 2013 15: 34
          +1
          Quote: Corsair
          Wasn't Moscow "heated" with Saratov gas?

          For me, this is not important, especially since they didn’t drown gas in the beginning, but used it for lighting in lanterns. In general, gas production in Ukraine began earlier than the Saratov one in the first half of the 19th century. True, this piece of land then belonged to Austria-Hungary. As for today, in principle, Ukraine has a lot of gas. With proper modernization of enterprises and utilities, it can cover 2/5 of total consumption. Nobody will refuse Russian gas (I don’t think shale yet), but diversification reduces the price. This is when 1/3 of Russian, 1/3 of local production and 1/3 of liquefied. In this case, Gazprom can no longer impose its price, and everything is decided by fair trade.
          1. Corsair
            Corsair 6 October 2013 16: 37
            -1
            Quote: Akim
            Nobody will refuse Russian gas (I don’t think shale yet), but diversification reduces the price.


            As you know, in the East, it is planned to develop the Yuzovsky and Kharkov clusters for the production of "shale gas", the ambiguity of the correctness of such a step is evidenced by the concern of the population with the consequences for the environment, in particular for groundwater (what is WATER for Donbass, you hope you understand) ...
            1. Akim
              Akim 6 October 2013 17: 41
              0
              Quote: Corsair
              environmental consequences, in particular for groundwater (

              As for shale gas. In those places it lies deep, almost like in Argentina. in the Lviv region, the gas-bearing strata are higher, therefore the regional council has not yet agreed.
        2. gyl
          gyl 6 October 2013 15: 58
          -1
          The first Dashava-Lviv gas pipeline was in 1940, after the Dashava-Kiev war.
          That’s where so many of ours come from in oil and gas production. The Shebelinskoye field with gas reserves of 650 billion cubic meters was discovered in the Kharkiv region in 1950, the first well gave gas on May 3, 1950. At the time of the opening, it was one of the largest in Europe (with gas reserves of 650 billion cubic meters at a depth of 2-4 km). Before the development of natural resources in Western Siberia, it provided up to 60% of gas production in the USSR and was the main supplier of gas for the European part of the Soviet Union - Moscow beyond the Urals, or what? And now in Ukraine up to 20 mln cubic meters of gas are produced, which, along with a short leverage of transit, makes it possible to keep the price for the population much lower than the domestic Russian. Saratov gas was much less, now there are fewer wells left there, and it’s hardly enough for internal consumption , although, of course, he came to Moscow first. So, what's the lie, sick?
  • Cherdak
    Cherdak 29 September 2013 15: 14
    +3
    And why argue? Just look at the map and remember how propaganda worked earlier:
    1. Akim
      Akim 29 September 2013 15: 25
      +1
      One could believe in the original leaflet, but there is one BUT. Then they did not write "In Ukraine". The writing form was "in the Ukraine" or "in the Ukrainian SSR". A country with that name has never existed
      1. Corsair
        Corsair 29 September 2013 21: 03
        0
        Quote: Akim
        One could believe in the original leaflet, but there is one BUT. Then they did not write "In Ukraine". The writing form was "in the Ukraine" or "in the Ukrainian SSR". A country with that name has never existed

        Agitation stylistically corresponds to the period to which
        Cherdak it belongs, and "B" or "ON" can be omitted, because we are talking about the fate of Ukraine (which is not very good over time).
      2. Misantrop
        Misantrop 6 October 2013 15: 08
        0
        Quote: Akim
        One could believe in the original leaflet, but there is one BUT.

        You can believe it or not, but I happened to hold it in my hands even then, alive. And faith is in another department request
  • Cherdak
    Cherdak 29 September 2013 15: 16
    +2
    And this is how the "Ukrainian" corner was created
    1. windjoker
      windjoker 29 September 2013 15: 32
      +3
      Then add a map of how the Russian Empire was created: with the annexation and exclusion of lands after the wars (including the Finnish one) ... it's just a story. All countries of the world were created this way: either seized land (Israel, etc.), or bought (Alaska), divided the countries into parts (India, Pakistan, Afghanistan). Your map is not an argument, but a distortion of facts.
      1. Gecko
        Gecko 29 September 2013 15: 56
        +2
        For all the annexed lands to the empire, first of all, Russian soldiers died ...
        Ukraine aches that under the empire it was oppressed and offended.
        1. windjoker
          windjoker 30 September 2013 00: 04
          +1
          Again, not an argument ... Kievan Rus preserved Russia as a neoplasm of the Slovens. Peasants and landowners from all lands served in the Russian Empire. The nationalities and languages ​​of communication were different, the Russian language was secondary (temporarily), then it became the main one. Therefore, oppressed peoples died under the flag of the Emperor of Russia, and not Russian soldiers am
    2. gyl
      gyl 1 October 2013 01: 36
      0
      Forget this agitprop. We all live in the realities of the Yalta-Potsdam accords, Koenigsberg and V. Prussia, by the way, are the same. Or do you think that if the Deutsche began to give Kaliningraders passports with their social package, would there be many patriots with a two-headed left?
  • darksoul
    darksoul 29 September 2013 15: 48
    +1
    Brothers Ukrainians made a choice, or rather their political sixes. If they made a choice, why ask, hysteria, and wonder about the response? Russia also made its choice. Ukraine would like to remind that at the same time it is extremely difficult to eat fish and ..... not to sit down. Ukraine made a choice to sit on x .... so there’s no point in reaching for a fish
  • kaktus
    kaktus 29 September 2013 16: 02
    +1
    Quote: Russ69
    Quote: Akim
    That's replacing the Su-22 - Grot 2

    When, there will be no prototype, but a real prototype, then we'll talk ...

    even better will the conversation with the serial production for the Russian Air Force
    1. Russ69
      Russ69 29 September 2013 16: 20
      0
      Quote: kaktus
      even better will the conversation with the serial production for the Russian Air Force

      But why does he need Russia? There are enough of their own developments ...
  • Sergey_K
    Sergey_K 29 September 2013 16: 23
    +4
    Quote: Jogan-64
    It’s not worth taking into account nationally worried morons,

    So you just are ...
  • Sashko07
    Sashko07 29 September 2013 16: 45
    0
    Quote: gecko
    What's the problem?
    1) Buy gas from the EU
    2) Sell your goods in the EU
    The problem is that you still think that Russia owes you something!

    So, my dear, my main purchaser of gas in Russia is Ukraine, and the Russian economy at the moment rests on the sale of energy resources. Give you a calculator, what would you consider what would happen if Ukraine completely abandons your gas.
    And as for the goods, so again, some enterprises in Ukraine as well as in Russia rely on the fact that we buy these same goods from each other, we will not buy the economy, neither from us nor from us.
    And who told you such garbage about the fact that you owe us something? You have only one thing for us - do not interfere with our life without your constant intervention.
    1. Htuek
      Htuek 29 September 2013 19: 10
      +1
      Which is done. Directly said live.
      You now have an EES intervention on all sides. Rejoice.
    2. Luna
      Luna 30 September 2013 00: 43
      0
      So my dear, my main purchaser of gas in Russia is Ukraine

      Is it with 27 billion cubic meters? repeat
      And then how much does Germany buy?
      1. gyl
        gyl 1 October 2013 01: 42
        0
        27 - this is Neftegaz, and there are also private traders, up to 10 mln. But, of course, we will reduce purchases.
  • Was mammoth
    Was mammoth 29 September 2013 18: 44
    +4
    "Doo-oo-cancer himself!" This can be used to title both the article and the comments. The gloat that the "khokh-lam" would be worse and the accusations of the "ka-tsap" on the other hand lead to the following conclusion. But recently we were one whole. And now for many people it is. Back in the past, when discussing elections in Ukraine on Russian television, someone said that Yanukovych was a “pro-Russian” presidential candidate in Ukraine, but that someone clever answered him that the president of Ukraine should be “pro-Ukrainian”. That's right, for me. But Yanukovych is not a "pro-Russian" or "pro-Ukrainian" president. He acts in the interests of big business. As, indeed, and Putin. This is where the roots of the problems are.
    PS The main accusation of the troubles of Ukraine in the high price of gas from Russia. Remember how the world’s gas price is formed. And what was the price of oil then. Putin did not make concessions, I think, only because of Tymoshenko’s behavior, her blackmail, outright gas theft ....

    And further. I am against rudeness and insults. Moreover, it will not be possible to answer properly via the Internet: "face to face."
  • Was mammoth
    Was mammoth 29 September 2013 18: 51
    0
    I am Russian. After the first correction, two letters remain in the word "ka-tsap". After the second, an additional text appeared: "... Nazi muzzle". wink
  • individual
    individual 29 September 2013 20: 03
    0
    The main "military secret" of Ukraine is that from its independence Kiev goes into bondage to the Polish master.
    This has already happened in history, everything goes in a circle.
    1. Igwin
      Igwin 29 September 2013 20: 55
      +1
      Ukraine is an artificial education .... normal people moved to Russia a long time ago ... they work to give birth to children ... we have 30% of them in Yamal and all our relatives are dragged along .... but these disputes between Russians and Ukrainians ...etc. stirring up strife ... we are one nation ... and we are bred like suckers .... if this continues, we will remain on the reservation as the Indians .... we have already lost a bunch of territories ... if anyone knows, it's up to the river Labs (Elbe) were Slavic lands
      1. Akim
        Akim 29 September 2013 21: 09
        +2
        Quote: Igwin
        normal people moved to Russia a long time ago ... they work to give birth to children ...

        Thank you DOCTOR for the diagnosis. wassat
  • Chuvash
    Chuvash 29 September 2013 22: 49
    +1
    Igwin RU Today, 20:55 ↑
    wrote correctly, we alone can’t survive! need to unite under the leadership of Russia!
  • EGORKA
    EGORKA 29 September 2013 23: 02
    +1
    Quote: Sashko07
    Quote: gecko
    What's the problem?
    1) Buy gas from the EU
    2) Sell your goods in the EU
    The problem is that you still think that Russia owes you something!

    So, my dear, my main purchaser of gas in Russia is Ukraine, and the Russian economy at the moment rests on the sale of energy resources. Give you a calculator, what would you consider what would happen if Ukraine completely abandons your gas.
    And as for the goods, so again, some enterprises in Ukraine as well as in Russia rely on the fact that we buy these same goods from each other, we will not buy the economy, neither from us nor from us.
    And who told you such garbage about the fact that you owe us something? You have only one thing for us - do not interfere with our life without your constant intervention.

    Leave this scarecrow about the fact that if Ukraine refuses gas from Russia ... and really count on the calculator, you will be surprised, but nothing bad will happen, the losses will not be critical. Russia would have less reason to intervene if Ukraine had solvent and did not speculate on Russia's weakness for her, alas, but you haven’t learned how to grow up for adult life over the past 20 years. Now, boasting of your independent sovereignty, you surrendered it quietly to the EU when you signed the association. Muscovy joined the earth to Kiev as a sign of eternal friendship and how can Russia not react and not interfere when you give them to Europe? How much blood was shed for the Russian Crimea? Therefore, Russia has a moral right to intervene, it will be a shame if you are all about it, we hope that it doesn’t.
    1. Akim
      Akim 30 September 2013 06: 51
      +1
      Quote: EGORKA
      How much blood was shed for the Russian Crimea?

      How much? And who then divided the Slavs into nationalities? The Russian soldier perished both in the Crimean and in the subsequent Russian-Turkish and in the world wars. The concept of "Russian soldier" was not a nationality, but a location. Chi Magyars, when our fathers served in Hungary, did they divide us? From For them we were all Russians. And Ukrainian and Greek and Georgian ...
  • EGORKA
    EGORKA 3 October 2013 06: 49
    0
    Quote: Akim
    Quote: EGORKA
    How much blood was shed for the Russian Crimea?

    How much? And who then divided the Slavs into nationalities? The Russian soldier perished both in the Crimean and in the subsequent Russian-Turkish and in the world wars. The concept of "Russian soldier" was not a nationality, but a location. Chi Magyars, when our fathers served in Hungary, did they divide us? From For them we were all Russians. And Ukrainian and Greek and Georgian ...


    A lot, that's why I say, if you need specific numbers, then the Internet will help you. As for the division, then yes, by Russians they often mean the way you mean, but in this context it is quite appropriate to more specifically and more accurately disassemble which Russian and how many shed their blood for the Crimea and we will see that the overwhelming majority of these "Russians" will be Russians by blood, and not by territoriality, and if we take a territorial feature, then they will be Russians from the central regions of Russia. , it was by the will of Russia and the Russians that Crimea became part of Russia, and then I would say into Ukraine: "as a sign of eternal friendship," so Russia has the moral right to worry about Crimea, and besides, there are many Russians living there. one thing, and when Ukraine gives up its sovereignty to the EU, this is another, and this makes Russia uneasy. It all starts small, today part of its sovereignty was given away, and tomorrow NATO bases will grow on the territory of Ukraine, a good buffer, em shoot them.
    1. Akim
      Akim 3 October 2013 08: 21
      +1
      Quote: EGORKA
      , therefore, Russia has a moral right to worry about the Crimea, and besides, many Russians live there.

      This is the right of Russia. You can be worried. You can invest materially in the economy of the autonomous republic of Crimea. You can open Russian gymnasiums. Nobody forbids this. But everything must be done within the framework of Ukrainian legislation and not be frightened by pseudo-patriots that we will bite Crimea from Ukraine. Over the years, an entire generation has grown up, with which Russia is not the homeland, but just a friendly and close state.
      And part of sovereignty is another lie of the Kremlin and our Communist Party (which unfortunately has ceased to be communist). Part of sovereignty is lost in the presence of a supranational body, i.e. namely integration into the union (EU chi TS). Yes, and horror stories about NATO are tired. The Russian Federation cooperates with the North Atlantic bloc several times more. But they specially shout to you: Atu Ukraine! And how many enterprises in the EU itself belong to Russia? Starting from Gazprom gas stations and ending with aircraft construction. And no one is afraid in the Kremlin that they will be squeezed out of them, because Europe plays by fair rules.
      PS As for the veracity of the Internet, an article about anti-Russian Wikipedia has been published today. But you can also turn the mirror on yourself. Truth is a legal document.
  • EGORKA
    EGORKA 3 October 2013 10: 33
    0
    Quote: Akim
    Quote: EGORKA
    , therefore, Russia has a moral right to worry about the Crimea, and besides, many Russians live there.

    This is the right of Russia. You can be worried. You can invest materially in the economy of the autonomous republic of Crimea. You can open Russian gymnasiums. Nobody forbids this. But everything must be done within the framework of Ukrainian legislation and not be frightened by pseudo-patriots that we will bite Crimea from Ukraine. Over the years, an entire generation has grown up, with which Russia is not the homeland, but just a friendly and close state.
    And part of sovereignty is another lie of the Kremlin and our Communist Party (which unfortunately has ceased to be communist). Part of sovereignty is lost in the presence of a supranational body, i.e. namely integration into the union (EU chi TS). Yes, and horror stories about NATO are tired. The Russian Federation cooperates with the North Atlantic bloc several times more. But they specially shout to you: Atu Ukraine! And how many enterprises in the EU itself belong to Russia? Starting from Gazprom gas stations and ending with aircraft construction. And no one is afraid in the Kremlin that they will be squeezed out of them, because Europe plays by fair rules.
    PS As for the veracity of the Internet, an article about anti-Russian Wikipedia has been published today. But you can also turn the mirror on yourself. Truth is a legal document.

    I answered that "what right does Russia have to get involved in the affairs of Ukraine and Crimea", I think I answered that as for investments in Ukraine and Crimea, I think they are, there are investments in Ukrainian business, as far as I remember these investments are more half of all investments in Ukraine, but Russian businessmen do it through offshores or something else. Here is another reason that Russia is breathing so unevenly towards Ukraine. As for the fact that Russia wants to take Crimea by force, this is I think boltology, but if we hypothetically imagine that some nimble will begin in Ukraine and Ukraine will crack, then I think Russia will pick up the Crimea and will not give it to the Turks and others who will try to reach out.