Military Review

Lacked either on 10 years, or forever. Patriotic artillery is experiencing is not the best period of his life

82
We present the view of military scientists on history and the development of missile and artillery weapons (RAV). The article is published in two parts. The first one contains a historical excursion, the second presents an analysis of promising RAV areas with regard to the inclusion of new weapons and military equipment in a single intelligence and information space.


Most modern scientists, based on an analysis of thousands of years of experience in the development of civilization, conclude that humanity is currently moving from the fifth to the sixth technological order. The emergence of new technologies has always influenced the nature of the development of weapons, and the nature of wars, military theorists in this regard indicate the readiness of the leading countries of the world to wage wars of the sixth generation. With the adoption of an automatic weapons, tanks, airplanes, the centennial concept of wars of mass armies of the third, “Napoleonic” generation was replaced by the concept of the ongoing incessant wars of the fourth generation, which are based on the actions of the ground forces, large masses of people, military equipment and artillery. From the atomic bombing of two cities of Japan at the end of World War II in 1945, it is customary to count the beginning of the concept of waging the fifth war - the nuclear missile generation, fortunately, with the mentioned exception, which was not realized in practice.

Ways of development

The military conflicts of the late XX - early XXI century with the active participation of the US and NATO allies revealed two main tendencies of the sixth generation of wars - contactless war (it focuses on high-precision weapons) and network-centric war (priority reconnaissance and control systems). Both of these concepts are undoubtedly coordinated with each other and, thus, we can talk about the wars of the sixth generation in the form of reconnaissance-strike (fire) actions of the armed forces in conflicts of any intensity.

Lacked either on 10 years, or forever. Patriotic artillery is experiencing is not the best period of his life

In this historical aspect, we consider the changing role of artillery in the wars of the past and present, and also express our view on the development prospects of the RAA and its use in the almost inevitable, unfortunately, wars of the near and more distant future.

Before the appearance of missile weapons during the Second World War (the famous V-1 and V-2, the anti-aircraft and anti-tank missiles Wasserfall, the Little Red Riding Hood X-7) and multiple launch rocket systems (MLRS - the modern name no less famous guards Katyusha mortars and their many analogues) barrel artillery systems reigned supreme on the battlefields (field artillery), sea open spaces (ship artillery) and in the air (aviation guns and machine guns). To this we can add that the fight against aviation was carried out by artillery systems of land and sea air defense.

For centuries, all the above-mentioned artillery systems developed in similar ways — to increase the firing range and the power of ammunition, they continuously increased the caliber, barrel length, and projectile mass. Even not counting the unique samples of ground artillery of the “Long Gustav” or “Dora” type, the ground artillery reached quite “sea” calibers (the Russian SM-54 howitzer - 2А3 - had a caliber 406 mm, and the 2Б2 mortar - 420 mm). The actual Russian naval artillery stopped at the same calibers (gun B-37 with caliber 406 mm with a mass of projectile more than 1100 kg). The Japanese Yamato battleships, 460-mm, were equipped with the most powerful guns in history (the firing range reached 50 km, and the mass of the projectile exceeded 1,5 t).

Similar ways of developing antitank artillery (from the typical pre-war caliber 25, 37, 45 mm anti-tank guns "grown" up to 100, 122, 152-mm), anti-aircraft artillery (probably the SM-27 and KM-52 the most powerful anti-aircraft guns were developed in USSR at the end of 40-s, they had an 152 caliber mm, horizontal firing range - more than 33 kilometers, reach height - almost 25 kilometers, rate of fire - 10 – 15 shots per minute) and even aircraft armament (fighters that had to start a war mainly machine guns, to its completion was equipped with 30, 37, 45 mm and even 57 mm rapid-fire guns - the H-57 gun, designed by Alexander Nudalman for the MiG-9 fighter).

Large-caliber anti-aircraft systems successfully passed the tests in the middle of the 50-s, but did not go into mass production, since in May the 1955 of the C-25 Berkut anti-aircraft missile system was adopted. Anti-tank artillery was more fortunate, despite the creation in the beginning of the 60-s of domestic anti-tank missile systems (ATGM) "Bumblebee", "Phalanx", "Baby" and their rapid development - the world's first smooth-bore anti-tank gun (PTP) T-12 (2А19) was adopted by the Soviet army in 1961, its modernized version MT-12 is still in service, more powerful 125-mm PTR "Sprut-B" (2A45М), standardized in ballistics and ammunition with tankline and ammunition with tank system and X-ray technology and ammunition with ballistics and ammunition with tank system and X-ray technology and ammunition with ballistic and ammunition with tank system and X-ray technology and ammunition with ballistics and ammunition with tank system and X-ray technology and ammunition with ballistics and ammunition with tank system and X-ray technology and ammunition with ballistics and ammunition with tank system and X-ray unit ammunition and X-ray unit design equipment. type D-81, adopted, but this It is not actually produced (its self-propelled counterpart Sprut-SD was mass-produced for the Airborne Forces).

Powerful and extremely massive (the weight of the battleship's three-gun turret was several thousand tons) shipboard artillery mounts of large caliber from the post-war period have been successfully replaced by missile systems (anti-ship missiles, cruise missiles for firing at ground targets, etc.). In fact, a modern Navy ship from barreled artillery systems has only anti-aircraft guns of caliber not exceeding 30 mm, and some types of ships are equipped with multipurpose automatic guns of calibers from 76 to 130 millimeters.

In modern aviation, only fast-firing small-caliber automatic guns (20 – 30 mm) also remained, and this was done solely to destroy ground targets with army (helicopters) and partly front-line (attack aircraft and some types of fighter-bombers) aircraft. Similarly, air defense systems of various range are used in the air defense system of objects and troops - from portable complexes (the well-known American Stinger-type MANPADS and the domestic Strely and Needles exceeding them in many respects have a range of several kilometers) "Patriot", "Aegis", domestic C-300, C-400, C-500, capable of hitting both aerodynamic and ballistic targets at ranges of several hundred kilometers) and only in a number of short-range systems small-caliber automatic guns are used (ZRPK of Tungusk, Pantsir type).

We will not be in a hurry with the conclusion about the futility of barreled artillery systems or about the further reduction of their areas of application (we will return to this trend below). Let us briefly dwell on the other main elements of the PAB system, namely, the means of ensuring the combat use of this type of weapon. Among all types of support (logistical, maintenance and maintenance, etc.) we single out the most important for combat use - reconnaissance and information (RIO).

RIO is usually understood as the system of the actual means of reconnaissance (that is, the set of means of obtaining information about the enemy) and the system of information support (all types of communications, data transfer, accumulation and processing of information, decision support, etc.). Traditionally, the reconnaissance system is divided not only by the areas of operation of reconnaissance assets (aerospace, air, surface / submarine, ground), wavelength ranges of sensors used (radar and radio, optical or optical-electronic, sound-heat, seismic, hydroacoustic, etc.), troop units of command (strategic, operational-strategic, operational, tactical), but also by subordination (or belonging to the armed forces), in particular, the artillery reconnaissance system (A R) with its own means of obtaining information, points of information processing and management of the AR system. This situation has developed historically, since it was the artillery that many centuries ago had the opportunity to shoot beyond the limits of direct visibility of the target from the position, it was necessary to know exactly where this very target was.

Then, naturally, having learned where the target is located, it is necessary to convey this information in a form suitable for use by the artilleryman to it, and then to the artilleryman to be able to calculate where to bring the gun and how much “to put gunpowder” to get into it. Therefore, the urgent needs of providing artillery firing greatly contributed to the development of exact sciences, primarily mathematics and mechanics, ballistics, theories of computation, information transmission, ultimately cybernetics and modern information technologies. It is not surprising that the first devices that facilitate the calculation of firing installations appeared precisely in artillery (some of them, such as the nomogram fire control device, were still preserved in domestic artillery units, of course, as a backup, American officers only trust electronics). The first complexes of control automation equipment (KSAU - in modern terminology) also appeared in artillery formations and rapidly developed, following the development of information technologies.

Unfortunately, the lag of domestic developments in this area is well known (they argue only about the lag time - ten years, 20 years or forever), and we, completing the historical excursion, smoothly approached a brief analysis of the state of the Russian RAV, its intelligence and information support system, problems of its development and the planned ways to solve them.

Current state

Igor Sheremet, who until recently was in charge of national military science, gave the most complete picture of the state of the Russian RAV, the problems it faced and the proposed ways of developing this type of weapon. He, in particular, notes that the available possibilities of using RAV in the mode of reconnaissance and fire operations with the implementation of modern methods of defeating enemy force groups are currently limited, with the main reasons for the current situation being:

  • a significant number of obsolete samples;
  • lack of intelligence capabilities;
  • insufficient degree of automation of management of formations of rocket troops and artillery (MFA).

    Of course, it is also fair to assert that at present the improvement of artillery weapons is carried out in two directions:

  • modernization of existing samples and carrying out their overhaul at industrial plants;
  • Work on the creation of promising samples of artillery weapons of a new generation.


    However, these two areas are common to the development of any complex technical system, the question is in the depth and direction of modernization of existing samples and how promising the samples under consideration are and what the samples of the new generation are. We will express our views on the development of PAB a bit later, but for now let us return to the analysis of the condition.

    The state of the RAA in general and the MFA RVAA in particular do not meet the requirements of modern military operations, as was shown by the events five years ago in the Caucasus. First of all, the state of the RIO system and, in part, the lack of certain types of high-precision munitions (VTB), the low characteristics of a number of samples and, unfortunately, often the inability to use existing VTB due to insufficient training of personnel is unsatisfactory.

    Obviously, without the presence of high-precision (and high-performance) ammunition (for short, ammunition will be understood as all barreled and rocket projectiles, mines, grenades, and missiles of various types) it is impossible to build a modern PAB system. Without going into the subtleties of the interpretation of the not very successful domestic term “high-precision weapons” (WTO), we will call high-precision any attack element that has the ability to controllably change the trajectory and / or the moment the combat unit (AF) is triggered. This definition includes, of course, conventional ammunition with remote fuses, with the indispensable condition that such a fuse has elements of “intellect” and is able to choose the moment of operation depending on the conditions of approach to the target. It should be noted that we just do not have multifunctional “smart” fuses.

    For future precision weapons and precision munitions, the future and this postulate are not disputed by almost anyone, the problem at present is to determine the ratio of precision and conventional ammunition at each stage of the development of RAV. Considering the rapid development of the element base, computational tools, sensors of various nature, their miniaturization and the constant reduction in the cost of production, there is no doubt that in the foreseeable future all RAV ammunition will be highly accurate in the sense given above (except for small-caliber shells and bullets, which, incidentally, , also not obvious).

    Today, the domestic artillery reconnaissance system includes only ground-based reconnaissance equipment of various types - radar reconnaissance of ground-moving targets, radar reconnaissance of firing positions of firing means, radio reconnaissance complexes, sound-heat and reconnaissance-signal complexes, portable optical-electronic reconnaissance and surveillance devices, including laser range finders target designators, specialized mobile reconnaissance points equipped with radar stations, LDC, day and night reconnaissance devices. The nomenclature of funds of the AR seems sufficient, their characteristics, of course, differ, but in general they are not much inferior to foreign analogues, the main problem is the lack of an effective system for managing intelligence, collecting, processing and bringing intelligence information. Attempts to create artillery reconnaissance command posts (PUAR), integrated intelligence processing points (PKRI) are a movement in the right direction, but their effectiveness is drastically reduced by the lack of consistency in developing both the general system of command and control of troops and weapons, including the smallest - unified lines of information exchange, high-performance computing tools, standardized mathematical and software, etc.

    Thus, we come to the main, in our opinion, problem - the lack of a true system in the development of the RAB and moreover - the lack of a clear concept of a phased construction of the Armed Forces of the XXI century and, accordingly, the construction of their most important component - the rocket forces and artillery.

    This common problem of building modern aircrafts has found concentrated expression in the current state of the ACS by the troops and weapons in general and the subsystem of automated control of MTA and in particular. Without going into details that are interesting only to specialists, let us note a couple of points - the work on creating an automated control system of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, of which, of course, smaller and smaller control systems, PURs, Pouars, and CSAUs must be set, is not shaky, but the general designer The ACS of the RF Armed Forces has not yet been determined. Various means of reconnaissance are quite actively developing; nowadays, many different companies are engaged in “fashionable” unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) - as a result, dozens of really different products are obtained with different lines of information, protocols, sensors, ground control and information processing points (for UAVs) .

    The right task - the formation of a single intelligence-information space (SSIS) - is very far from its decision and requires, in our opinion, tough organizational decisions in the first place.

    What measures are being taken within the framework of the current HPA and are planned in the new, as well as in the State Program for the Development of the DIC to improve the RAV system?

    A single military-technical policy in the development of rocket and artillery weapons is seen in the creation of balanced weapons in a limited range of calibers, common to the ground forces, airborne forces and the navy (the basis laid in the ground forces is the transition to the two main calibers of the 120 and 152 mm artillery, mm the entire RAB deserves separate consideration); in the development of a basic combat platform (model) within the framework of each type of armament with the creation on its basis of elements of a unified family of models; in complexing the means of destruction, reconnaissance, control and assurance of fire; in the development of means of maintenance and repair of RAV complexes.

    It should be noted that the solution of these issues and the full implementation of the tasks of the SPV-2020 will not allow the creation of a truly promising RAB system that can function effectively within the framework of the sixth generation wars. To determine the appearance of promising and modernized PAB systems, armament complexes and military equipment, the development of conceptual directions for their development for the period up to 2025, it is necessary to conduct comprehensive studies.
  • Author:
    Originator:
    http://vpk-news.ru/
    82 comments
    Information
    Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

    I have an account? Sign in

    1. svp67
      svp67 4 September 2013 17: 00
      12
      Domestic artillery is going through far from the best period of its life
      Will any of the gunners explain what the author is trying to say? Why is it suddenly lagging behind in artillery forever? As far as I know, the barrel artillery has already reached its peak of perfection, that is, in terms of the material part, no one can get far behind. The whole issue is now being solved in improving the artillery control systems. What is the problem, is that we still have not created these systems, or that no one is creating anything?
      1. domovoi
        domovoi 4 September 2013 17: 07
        28 th
        There are no guided (or adjusted) shells, as, for example, in the UK they recently tested. and soon will not appear
        1. experienced
          experienced 4 September 2013 17: 10
          17
          Quote: domovoi
          There are no guided (or adjusted) shells, as, for example, in the UK they recently tested. and soon will not appear

          But what about Kitolov and Krasnopol? There is a controlled mine "Daredevil".
          Here it is in detail: http://topwar.ru/25808-upravlyaemye-boepripasy-kitolov-2-i-kitolov-2m.html
          However, what I personally like about this site is the presence of specialists in almost all military branches. I think that Lopatov will not pass by this topic. It remains to wait for his appearance on the site hi
          1. AK-74-1
            AK-74-1 4 September 2013 18: 37
            +1
            Exactly EXPERIENCED. At one time, after firing at one of the training grounds in Germany, the whole company collected fragments.
          2. domovoi
            domovoi 4 September 2013 19: 06
            +1
            did not know. thank you for enlightening hi and it’s good that there is
          3. Lopatov
            Lopatov 4 September 2013 19: 20
            +8
            Quote: seasoned
            But what about Kitolov and Krasnopol? There is a controlled mine "Daredevil".

            These ammunition is by no means problem-free. The most important thing is that they are not in the troops (except for the "Brave"). There are not enough lighting means for their application. There is no stable connection for their application. No experience.

            And they themselves are by no means a child prodigy; their use is limited not only by the presence of spotters, but also by the lower limit of cloud cover.
        2. IRBIS
          IRBIS 4 September 2013 17: 42
          +3
          Quote: domovoi
          There are no guided (or adjusted) shells, as, for example, in the UK they recently tested. and soon will not appear

          There have already been thirty-five years in service. And shells and mines. You look at the wrong reference books, look at ours, not English.
        3. abdrah
          abdrah 5 September 2013 02: 30
          0
          Well, something particularly accurate may not be right for us in the USSR, it was customary to consider 2 tactical nuclear charges per kilometer of front. when using nuclear weapons, there is a short-term electromagnetic pulse and subsequent electromagnetic disturbances that are unlikely to give a good aim to the Aglitz smart projectile.
      2. Quiet
        Quiet 4 September 2013 17: 09
        +8
        Will any of the gunners explain what the author is trying to say? Why is it suddenly lagging behind in artillery forever?

        This article is clearly for US analysts ... fool wassat
        1. BARKAS
          BARKAS 4 September 2013 17: 30
          +1
          Now it takes a lot of time to determine the goal of calculating the decision to process and bring the information to the gun and ultimately strike, the existing VTBs will not fundamentally improve the situation. If all this is corrected then the use of artillery can be significantly expanded!
      3. Rus2012
        Rus2012 4 September 2013 17: 24
        +8
        Quote: svp67
        Why is it suddenly lagging behind in artillery forever?

        ... well, about forever, I won’t tell, but, I’ll bring some of my vision.
        Of course, the era of Gorbi-Yeltsin did not bring anything good in this area. Many research institutes, one way or another connected with the barrel artillery have sunk into oblivion. And there are also a couple of decades of doing nothing in this area (there was no funding and no clear statement of tasks). The USSR was touched - it remained, but there are no people who would undertake to lead them ...

        Eventually -
        -Our long-range artillery fires no further than 35km (at a foreign land, up to 60)
        -intelligence, additional reconnaissance, for example, the same UAVs and special supplies, is not debugged
        - supplies adjustment for Glonass, similar to GPS - not yet.
        We can’t say that nothing is being done - for example, with the French (or have already completed) - an increase in the MLRS range over 100. The development of the same thermal imaging sights on the 5 ...

        So there are problems. Visions of how to solve them, too. Including - this article ...
        1. Corsair5912
          Corsair5912 4 September 2013 18: 28
          0
          Quote: Rus2012
          -Our long-range artillery fires no further than 35km (at a foreign land, up to 60)
          -intelligence, additional reconnaissance, for example, the same UAVs and special supplies, is not debugged
          - supplies adjustment for Glonass, similar to GPS - not yet.
          We can’t say that nothing is being done - for example, with the French (or have already completed) - an increase in the MLRS range over 100. The development of the same thermal imaging sights on the 5 ...

          Profane nonsense.
          There is no field artillery at a foreign country shooting up to 60 km (maximum 39 km), only large-caliber and coastal artillery is capable of this.
          You can correct artillery through Glonass only in computer games, in reality this is impossible, there is a druten means of correction.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 4 September 2013 18: 41
            +4
            Quote: Corsair5912
            There is no field artillery firing up to 60 km

            Is.


            Quote: Corsair5912
            You can correct artillery through Glonass only in computer games, in reality it is impossible

            Attention!
            1. maxvet
              maxvet 4 September 2013 19: 59
              +1
              Quote: Spade
              Is.

              But how much does such a shell cost, and what is the accuracy of the hit?
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 4 September 2013 20: 04
                +2
                Cheaper than the goals they hit. They will deliver batteries in Poland and the Baltic states, and will chuckle with our traffic in the Kaliningrad region.

                For any technological lag you have to pay. In the military sphere, a bloodbath.
              2. Poppy
                Poppy 6 September 2013 10: 25
                +1
                and most importantly: where will the GPS come from during the global war?
          2. Rus2012
            Rus2012 4 September 2013 18: 57
            +4
            Quote: Corsair5912
            Profane nonsense.

            German military chemists developed a propellant charge for howitzer shots, which allowed to increase the range of the PzH-2000 self-propelled artillery (Panzerhaubitze 2000) to 56 kilometersreports Defense Talk. The range of a conventional shot is approximately 40 kilometers.
            http://military-informer.narod.ru/sau-pressa-2.html

            155 mm guided GPS projectile Excalibur
            http://topwar.ru/8120-snaryad-povyshennoy-dalnosti-excalibur.html
          3. soldier's grandson
            soldier's grandson 4 September 2013 22: 17
            +1
            German sau hits 56 km
        2. 11 black
          11 black 4 September 2013 20: 18
          0
          Quote: Rus2012
          Eventually -
          -Our long-range artillery fires no further than 35km (at a foreign land, up to 60)

          I would say more precisely - the energy performance of the guns in our artillery is no worse - but there is no proper level of ammunition (I'm talking about rockets like American excaliburs). Of course there are Krasnopoles and daredevils, but they can’t reach the level of the same excalibur, and it is this shell that provides that range in 60 km.
          Conclusion - it is necessary to develop new rockets for existing weapons (the same Msta, for example) and the situation will improve, as far as I know, work is now underway on new Whalers, and a completely new "Centimeter" is being developed.
          1. Corsair5912
            Corsair5912 4 September 2013 21: 29
            +2
            Quote: 11 black
            Conclusion - it is necessary to develop new rockets for existing weapons (the same Msta, for example) and the situation will improve, as far as I know, work is now underway on new Whalers, and a completely new "Centimeter" is being developed.

            Russia has rocket artillery shells for both the MSTA and Hyacinth, Peony, Acacia, Carnation, etc.
            http://topwar.ru/4435-giacint.html
            In 2008 they could enter Tbilisi directly from Tskhinvali if they wanted to.
      4. Genry
        Genry 4 September 2013 17: 51
        +5
        The smooth-bore tank cannon somehow tells where classic artillery can grow.
        This will especially affect long-range artillery:
        1. automation of firing at the required pace (water cooling);
        2. increase in range, due to the reactive acceleration of the projectile;
        3. shells must have intellectual functions: correction, homing, reconnaissance, ...;
        4. new principles of shelling (landmines: detonation above the ground, when flying into a room, after a certain time after a group shot, ...).
        5. ...
        Modern electronics provides many new opportunities for improving a seemingly ordinary gun.
        A special role belongs to automation organization firing, allowing you to quickly turn around, effectively shoot and leave the battlefield.
        1. svp67
          svp67 4 September 2013 18: 04
          +2
          Quote: Genry
          This will especially affect long-range artillery:
          While it is hard to believe that a "smooth" barrel awakens a promising long-range cannon - issues of stabilizing a projectile in flight, at long ranges, while it is easier to solve with "rifling", and without this, a gun firing far away, but no one needs anywhere ...
          1. Genry
            Genry 4 September 2013 18: 20
            +1
            Quote: svp67
            issues of projectile stabilization in flight, at long ranges, while it is easier to solve "rifling"


            The rifling is needed for the blank projectile. If we take a projectile with plumage (like a mine, a rocket) and with "brains", then why rifling?

            Rifling:
            - complication of maintenance (cleaning),
            - excess wear element (service life)
            - the complication of barrel manufacturing technology.
            1. evil hamster
              evil hamster 4 September 2013 19: 32
              +4
              Quote: Genry
              The rifling is needed for the blank projectile. If we take a projectile with plumage (like a mine, a rocket) and with "brains", then why rifling?

              Let's develop your thought. Why then do we need a gun at all? Starting accelerator and attached in front.?
            2. svp67
              svp67 4 September 2013 20: 51
              -1
              Quote: Genry
              The rifling is needed for the blank projectile. If we take a projectile with plumage (like a mine, a rocket) and with "brains", then why rifling?
              And nevertheless, shells from smooth-bore cannons are still flying closer than their "rifled" counterparts, or rather "just fly." With a drop in speed, they lose stability, in particular due to the fact that the "aerodynamic rudders" are plumage, with a drop in speed they start to work worse ...
          2. AK-74-1
            AK-74-1 4 September 2013 18: 40
            0
            The stabilization issue was resolved even when firing from simple rails (pipes), "Grad", for example, and as already mentioned, there are projectiles with an adjustable trajectory.
            1. svp67
              svp67 4 September 2013 21: 33
              0
              Quote: AK-74-1
              The stabilization issue was resolved even when firing from simple rails (pipes), "Grad", for example, and as already mentioned, there are projectiles with an adjustable trajectory.
              Do not confuse the "Gradov" projectile, its engine pulls along the entire trajectory, that is, the speed is almost unchanged, and the projectile does not have such an engine ...
              1. Kars
                Kars 4 September 2013 21: 43
                +3
                Quote: svp67
                Do not confuse the "Gradovsky" projectile, its engine pulls along the entire trajectory

                Is there an engine running seconds 5-6
                Quote: AK-74-1
                The stabilization issue is resolved even when firing from simple rails (pipes)

                the projectile has stabilizers.

                And honestly say the accuracy there is VERY not so hot.
                1. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 4 September 2013 21: 47
                  +1
                  Kars is absolutely correct, the flight section is divided into active when the solid propellant rocket engine is operating, and passive when the projectile flies by inertia.
                  1. svp67
                    svp67 4 September 2013 21: 51
                    +1
                    Quote: Alex 241
                    Kars is absolutely correct

                    Yes ... I look, today is his day or night, from whom, what ... But if, right, then right hi . Just like Alex good
                    1. Kars
                      Kars 5 September 2013 11: 09
                      +1
                      Quote: svp67
                      Yes ... I look, today is his day or night, who, what

                      It happens. By the way, someone did not visit his comment where the Swiss confused with the Finns, and got the Leopard subfix 2))))
                2. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 4 September 2013 22: 00
                  +1
                  Quote: Kars
                  there the engine runs for 5-6 seconds

                  Somewhere like that

                  Quote: Kars
                  the projectile has stabilizers.

                  And on "simple pipes" there are guiding grooves that give the RS shell rotation.
                  1. experienced
                    experienced 4 September 2013 22: 05
                    0
                    Quote: Spade

                    I always knew what I could count on, noticed and added for a long time, now I decided to say Alaverdi.
                    It's really nice that people who have served and in the topic can comment on the news (article). From this you gain knowledge and begin to master the situation - "we are not vegetables."
                    Lopatov thanks, "+" put down and they are well-deserved hi
                    In one comment I didn’t fit the time frame, but thanks for coming and telling me how it is !!! hi
                    Because, as a special, he is special soldier
                    The administrator would pay extra for the maintenance of specialists on topics, but this is his patrimony and his right hi
                    1. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 4 September 2013 22: 16
                      +2
                      Yes, I always wrote that in artillery we have big problems. The article tried to identify them, and this is good.
      5. vjhbc
        vjhbc 4 September 2013 22: 11
        0
        I don’t agree with the fact that artillery has not yet implemented a system of liquid propellants; their binary component system of sequential arson of them; and even in electromagnetic acceleration the horse didn’t roll
        Quote: svp67
        Will any of the gunners explain what the author is trying to say? Why is it suddenly lagging behind in artillery forever? As far as I know, the barrel artillery has already reached its peak of perfection, that is, in terms of the material part, no one can get far behind. The whole issue is now being solved in improving the artillery control systems. What is the problem, is that we still have not created these systems, or that no one is creating anything?
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 4 September 2013 22: 18
          +2
          Yes, LMW is very promising. As for electromagnetic, not sure.
          1. Aleks tv
            Aleks tv 4 September 2013 22: 24
            +2
            Quote: Spade
            Yes, LMW is very promising.

            good
            And not only in artillery.
            At the beginning of the 90, this was not even concealed in the departments that development was ongoing.
            And two separate non-combustible fractions during storage - this would be generally great.
            Eheh.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 4 September 2013 22: 31
              +1
              Quote: Aleks tv
              And two separate non-combustible fractions during storage - this would be generally great.

              In my opinion, only such people are developing. Otherwise, it is too unsafe.

              By the way, one of the limitations, as far as I remember, was the presence of high pressure pipelines, unsafe for the crew. In theory, moving the crew into a separate capsule solves this problem.
    2. artemiy
      artemiy 4 September 2013 17: 12
      +4
      Show museum exhibits and say that again everything is bad !?
      1. Arabist
        Arabist 4 September 2013 17: 17
        +4
        Some go even further, write "the shocking truth about the state of the Russian army" and a photo session of equipment recovered from a swamp or ravine during World War II. Or they write that the Russian army is not able to defeat the Georgian army.
    3. Brave
      Brave 4 September 2013 17: 18
      +1
      Isn't Roman Ryabtsev, the lead singer of the Tekhnologiya group, carried away by artillery? lol
    4. USNik
      USNik 4 September 2013 17: 39
      0
      look of military scientists on the history and development of missile and artillery weapons (RAV)

      Since when have singers become military scientists by mouth !?
      Soloist of the Technology group Roman Ryabtsev spent 15 rubles in Voronezh
      http://inforotor.ru/news/15346131

      Yksperd ischo laughing
    5. Aleks tv
      Aleks tv 4 September 2013 17: 52
      +5
      The comments of the artillerymen on this article are also very interesting.

      Barrel - will always be the basis of NE fire in the near future.
      - Ordinary shots give a low cost of a salvo, development here is possible due to the improvement of sighting and navigation systems and control systems.
      - Guided shots carry the function of the WTO.
      IMHO, of course.

      Are we lagging behind in artillery than in other weapons systems? What's in the "hardware", what's in the "chips" - everything is on the same level, as in all aircraft.
      Tactics, OI and Strategy are also one.

      What are the peculiarities of artillery trouble at this stage?


      ps
      When I read the headline, I remembered the stories of older gunners that the "Russian school of artillery" was preserved during the revolution.
      In the Second World War, the Germans were afraid of fire precisely as the accuracy of Soviet artillery fire and its firing system.
      The blow to the "school" was delivered by the "maize". For the sake of the missiles, not only the "trunks" were eliminated, but this "Russian school" was also destroyed.
      It has not been restored to this day in the "mass" of sniper fire.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 4 September 2013 18: 37
        +5
        The "school" was finished off by the catastrophe. The corn-grower did not have enough strength.
        1. Aleks tv
          Aleks tv 4 September 2013 18: 43
          +1
          Quote: Spade
          The "school" was finished off by the catastrophe.

          Welcome.

          I would like to hear your opinion about the article and artillery of the Russian Federation.
          Thanks in advance.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 4 September 2013 18: 54
            +3
            Correctly written, albeit somewhat abstruse.
            Well, since we were talking about artillery officers, they trained the system of training for a long time, and, finally, finished it off. And to compensate for the lag in technical and informational terms with high professionalism will not succeed.
    6. Corsair5912
      Corsair5912 4 September 2013 17: 54
      -1
      The most complete picture of the state of the Russian RAV, the problems facing it and the proposed ways of developing this type of weapon was given by Igor Sheremet, who until recently led the national military science. In particular, he notes that the existing possibilities for using RAVs in reconnaissance and fire operations with the implementation of modern methods of defeating enemy troop groups are currently limited,

      Judging by the text of the article, neither the author nor I. Sheremet have the slightest idea about modern artillery in Russia, they did not serve in the army, they never saw artillery or artillery reconnaissance (PRP, etc.), they did not participate in the shooting.
      Custom-made enemy article on the topic - the enemy is strong, it’s time to surrender, it makes no sense to resist.
    7. Debryansk
      Debryansk 4 September 2013 17: 56
      +1
      And what is there to explain behind the creation of RAV control systems and the creation of high-precision munitions. What we have does not meet the requirements of modern combat operations.
    8. lelikas
      lelikas 4 September 2013 18: 11
      0
      Quote: Bold
      Isn't Roman Ryabtsev, the lead singer of the Tekhnologiya group, carried away by artillery? lol

      5+
    9. awg75
      awg75 4 September 2013 18: 20
      -2
      this author seems to absolutely not understand in artillery --- just an absolute zero. I don’t even want to discuss anything - the latest technology goes to the army, be sure of this and I want to say to the world democrats and their marsh mongrels - you won’t wait
      1. Corsair5912
        Corsair5912 4 September 2013 18: 39
        0
        Quote: awg75
        this author seems to absolutely not understand in artillery --- just an absolute zero. I don’t even want to discuss anything - the latest technology goes to the army, be sure of this and I want to say to the world democrats and their marsh mongrels - you won’t wait

        True, it’s not the first year I have been observing from the office window how trailers from the Uralmash self-propelled guns MSTA-S are being transported to the training ground for testing guns. Euros and Yankees have nothing of equal value. My son served in artillery reconnaissance, our army has everything that is needed and laser rangefinders and computers for calculating firing and so on. There are mobile mobile reconnaissance posts (PRP), where all firing control equipment is mounted.
        1. Kars
          Kars 4 September 2013 19: 25
          +7
          Quote: Corsair5912
          Euros and Yankees have nothing of equal value

          Really?
          What about the M-109 Paladin or Rts2000
      2. The comment was deleted.
    10. The comment was deleted.
    11. Lopatov
      Lopatov 4 September 2013 18: 28
      +8
      The article, of course, is written well, very confused, but in fact everything is correct. There is a gap, the gap is huge in almost all areas. Something is being done, but at this rate the lag will grow into "lag forever."

      Thanks for raising this issue.
    12. user
      user 4 September 2013 18: 34
      +1
      The only correct observation is that there is a lag in the electronic component (well, we always had this, which did not prevent us from creating very decent samples in the USSR). There will be a decent combat clash and high-precision ammunition will quickly end even with the Americans or the money for their production (although it is not harmful to dream of waging war with high-precision weapons).
    13. Strashila
      Strashila 4 September 2013 18: 42
      0
      What is artillery ??? Who will actually deal with it ??? All that is now from production facilities is all in the hands of a private trader, and to him living abroad and holding capital to the state to the star there. Salvage and all. Metallurgy, mechanical engineering, chemistry ... who will develop, put into production ... do not tell the private trader, read his attitude to this matter above. Optics and radio electronics, computers, production of these types are destroyed as a class. The backlog of the Soviet past is destroyed and everything on this one.
      1. Strashila
        Strashila 4 September 2013 20: 21
        0
        I like the optimism of minuscule ... but the fact remains that what we have is the remains of the era of the USSR and they are not eternal.
        1. m262
          m262 5 September 2013 00: 06
          0
          Damn, why pour black paint on everything? The 'pine-u' sight for the t-90 tank was not created under the Union, giving each battery a drone is also not very expensive (the same Chinese ones cost 300 bucks on the market), and you don't need to sprinkle ashes on your head. A familiar artillery officer always goes to shoot with a PDA and reads the data on it, or do you think in our army they are still shooting with slide rules ???
          Having adjustments from the simplest UAV, effective fire can be fired with the most ordinary shells, your Escalibur costs about $ 50000, you still need to aim it from a UAV, a regular OFS cal 122 costs $ 30, the fire task of the escalibur can be completed with 4 conventional shells adjustment why pay more !?
    14. 787nkx
      787nkx 4 September 2013 18: 45
      0
      By 2020, they promise to create a computer and analysis methods that can calculate everything, including all options for military operations and their outcome. Accordingly, there is no need to fight, the total was calculated by the computer, the result is known to both sides.
      After this, the world will change dramatically.
      1. Aleks tv
        Aleks tv 4 September 2013 18: 56
        +1
        Quote: 787nkx
        promise to create a computer and analysis methods that can calculate everything, including all options for military operations


        Simulation of hostilities has always been, is and will be.
        Math.modeling all officers study in higher mathematics in the field.
        No novelty in this.


        Quote: 787nkx
        the result was calculated by the computer, the result is known to both parties.

        Efficiency on the one hand and errors on the other hand of such systems is a topic for a separate and not very short conversation.
        1. 787nkx
          787nkx 4 September 2013 19: 13
          0
          That's just the point, the probability of the forecast is -100%.
          Absolute truth will become known, are we ready to know it?
          1. Aleks tv
            Aleks tv 4 September 2013 19: 19
            +2
            Quote: 787nkx
            probability of forecast -100%.

            Impossible, all the more likely the calculation of the battle.
            It is an axiom.
          2. Lopatov
            Lopatov 4 September 2013 19: 22
            +1
            Are you kidding, or seriously?
            1. 787nkx
              787nkx 4 September 2013 19: 29
              0
              Seriously, by the 20th year such computing power will be publicly available.
          3. Rus2012
            Rus2012 4 September 2013 19: 23
            +1
            Quote: 787nkx
            That's just the point, the probability of prediction is -100%. Absolute truth will become known, are we ready to know it?

            Ehhh, dear colleague, a Russian person will spit on all 100% forecasts, and will trample on the delete, courage and rage ...
            And it will overturn all scientifically verified forecasts by ..y!%)
            And most importantly - the Lord will help him !!!
            1. 787nkx
              787nkx 4 September 2013 19: 31
              0
              In my heart I completely agree with you.
            2. IGS
              IGS 4 September 2013 23: 22
              0
              Yes smile the Russian person cannot be counted. But seriously, a comrade who claims that computers will be created, etc. has read a lot of utopian fiction, he should have read textbooks. There is a theory of chaos, quite understandable and not at all chaotic, we use its fruits every day, listening to the weather forecast. Yes, for its high-quality application, huge computing power is needed, maybe we will create them, or calculation algorithms that reduce these calculations ... but there is one small but ... for a 100% forecast, we must take into account the influence of all factors in the universe and outside it , every Higgs boson (if it exists), every particle, wave, etc., even those that we do not know about, and also take into account the influence of observation and the influence of the fact of having a forecast too (read textbooks, the very fact of observation affects the result), otherwise "butterfly wing effect" and your prediction ... and the Russian will win again smile just because his wife is waiting at home, the roof needs to be repaired and the rye sown ...
              P.S. The system cannot know itself.
    15. igor67
      igor67 4 September 2013 18: 51
      +5
      Why is it remembered
    16. shinobi
      shinobi 4 September 2013 18: 57
      -1
      The author is recommended to at least sometimes break away from the contemplation of his own "genius" conclusions and sink to the sinful earth. No where is the logic, damn it? Google in the end! The network, of course, has enough of all sorts of husks, but with open-mindedness and impartiality, a competent person will find a lot of things there. There are, of course, problems in this industry, but this is more likely a lack of a coherent concept for barrel artillery in the 21st century and not lagging behind.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 4 September 2013 19: 13
        +2
        Quote: shinobi
        Half of the ball buys weapons from us, the art of the system in particular, fights them and fights well, but we are hopelessly behind!

        Let's get here in more detail.
    17. kind
      kind 4 September 2013 19: 31
      +2
      Let me remind you that at the moment in Russia there is not a single artillery school. The Academy in St. Petersburg does not count, because her tasks are somewhat different. Powerful teaching teams and traditions were destroyed, and officer artillery dynasties were interrupted. In a short time it’s impossible to recreate it, but Peter I correctly said- "Shooting from guns is not only a roar, but also the greatest skill, and the most important science."
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 4 September 2013 19: 56
        +4
        There is Yekaterinburg. However, it is not enough. The system was broken. For example, AIR - instrumental artillery reconnaissance. Previously, specialists were trained at the Leningrad School. (Under the USSR, all artillerymen had a specialization. For example, "truckers" were trained in Kolomna, as well as artillerymen of the Airborne Forces, self-propelled gunners in Ukraine, etc.) Now they are not trained. Apparently, they decided that the artillery gunner would be able to learn from scratch already in part, relying on the knowledge gained at the Higher Higher Educational Institution.

        Moreover, the military training system has been destroyed. Previously, as it was, an officer came to the position of commander of the 2nd fire platoon, the next step was the senior officer of the battery, the next one was its commander, and so on. Now the lieutenant almost immediately "jumps" into the battalion commander - there are not enough personnel. And this is not good, in this position he has practically no time for additional training and improvement of his professional skills.
        1. kind
          kind 4 September 2013 20: 03
          +2
          Yekaterinburg VAKU disbanded on October 1, 2011
        2. Aleks tv
          Aleks tv 4 September 2013 20: 05
          0
          Quote: Spade
          There is a Ekaterinburg.

          No longer.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 4 September 2013 20: 20
            +2
            Sorry. Although they did not reach the level of Kolomna, although the training base was an order of magnitude better.

            So now they will train cadets in St. Petersburg. Now I looked, this year they are gaining 842 "elephants". I don’t know how they are with the training base, 40 cadet batteries (this is when all five courses will be available) is a lot.

            http://mvaa.ru/nabor2013.htm
            1. kind
              kind 4 September 2013 20: 26
              +2
              [Quote] Now I looked, this year they are gaining 842 "elephants". [quote]
              About 200 people submitted documents for admission, and there are practically no bases for cadets there.
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 4 September 2013 20: 33
                +4
                Quote: Good
                Documents for admission filed about 200 people.

                And 99% of them are children of the military

                They will collect behind the fence, as in the dashing 90s:
                -Two by two?
                -Four
                - Guy, you suit us ...

                This is to be expected. Two years without recruitment, no information
                1. Aleks tv
                  Aleks tv 4 September 2013 20: 37
                  0
                  Quote: Spade
                  And 99% of them are children of the military

                  The same is almost certain.

                  In Soviet and Russian times, this was the backbone of cadets, those who clearly know "for what" and "for what" they enter the school.
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 4 September 2013 20: 43
                    +1
                    That is yes. Children from civilian families did not really understand where they got.
    18. Lopatov
      Lopatov 4 September 2013 19: 58
      +4
      For those who believe that everything is fine with artillery, a very old AIR scheme. Which I have already laid out. From what was supposed to be at the moment, we have nothing.
      clickable.
    19. ebrd
      ebrd 4 September 2013 20: 39
      0
      Quote: Spade
      "truckers were trained in Kolomna, as well as artillerymen of the Airborne Forces, self-propelled gunners in Ukraine, etc.)
      .... You forgot the Tbilisi VAKU - there, they were preparing, notorious ignoramuses and slobs - I know firsthand - of many served ...
      1. Aleks tv
        Aleks tv 4 September 2013 20: 42
        0
        Quote: berd
        You forgot Tbilisi WAKU

        they were then transferred to the Ekb ... back in the early 90's.
      2. Lopatov
        Lopatov 4 September 2013 20: 46
        +1
        And this is the Yekaterinburg VAKU. But I would not say that they were special ignoramuses. Probably, Sverdlovsk teachers who trained political workers influenced.

        But sloppiness is yes. Tradition...
    20. Siberian
      Siberian 4 September 2013 20: 42
      -1
      As if by the way. We also have nuclear shells to shoot from these cannons.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 4 September 2013 20: 47
        +3
        One hope ...
      2. kind
        kind 5 September 2013 05: 37
        0
        These shells are already gone. Discontinued.
    21. Ivan Tarasov
      Ivan Tarasov 4 September 2013 21: 17
      +1
      There is one weak point - the lack of self-propelled guns in conditions of urban fighting.
      We need something like "Sturmtigra" BO, with protection no worse than that of a tank, armed with a 320 mm PU RS for firing 350 kg high-explosive rocket-propelled grenade. Effective fire range 1 - 1,5 km. Let the ammunition be small (10 - 15 shots), but according to the principle of one shot - one house (high-rise building). When switching to the use of combat robots, such an ACS would not be a bad addition (so as not to use aircraft for solving small tasks).
    22. voliador
      voliador 5 September 2013 01: 53
      0
      There are no new developments, as I understand it.
    23. Sirs
      Sirs 5 September 2013 03: 09
      0
      And the new development "Coalition SV"?
      1. kind
        kind 5 September 2013 05: 39
        0
        "Coalition" is still in the prototype stage. Most likely it will not enter service.
    24. max702
      max702 5 September 2013 10: 46
      0
      The only thing that lags behind is the element base, and accordingly, as was said above in the means of guidance, reconnaissance, fire control, information exchange, but in terms of design we do not surpass the hardware, but the fact that some people write that we shoot at 35 and the adversary 60 for a simple explanation, our systems according to the requirements of the Ministry of Defense should shoot all types of ammunition that are in stocks and there are samples from almost imperial times, try to achieve a range of modern ammunition 50 years ago from a shot.