August 1945. The reasons for the surrender of Japan

To the question “What caused the surrender of Japan?” There are two popular answers. Option A - the atomic bombardment of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Option B - Manchurian operation of the Red Army.
Then begins the discussion: what turned out to be more important - dropped atomic bombs or the defeat of the Kwantung Army.

Both proposed options are wrong: neither the atomic bombings, nor the defeat of the Kwantung Army were decisive - these were only the final chords of the Second World War.

A more balanced answer suggests that the fate of Japan was determined by four years of hostilities in the Pacific. Strange as it may seem, this answer is also a double bottom. For amphibious operations on tropical islands, the actions of airplanes and submarines, hot artillery duels and torpedo attacks of surface ships hides a simple and obvious conclusion:

The war in the Pacific was planned by the United States, initiated by the United States, and conducted in the interests of the United States.

The fate of Japan was predetermined in the early spring of the 1941 of the year - as soon as the Japanese leadership succumbed to American provocations and began seriously discussing plans for preparing for the coming war. For a war in which Japan had no chance of winning.

The Roosevelt administration calculated everything in advance.

The inhabitants of the White House knew very well that the industrial potential and resource base of the United States far exceeded that of the Japanese Empire, and in the field of scientific and technological progress, the United States was at least a decade ahead of its future adversary. The war with Japan will bring huge benefits to the United States - if successful (the probability of which was 100%), the United States will crush its only rival in the Asia-Pacific region and become absolute hegemons in the vastness of the Pacific Ocean. The risk of the enterprise was reduced to zero - the continental United States was completely invulnerable to the Imperial Army and fleet.

The main thing is to make the Japs play by the American rules and get involved in a deliberately losing game. America has no need to start first - it should be a “people's war, holy war” in which good Yankees smash an evil and despicable enemy who has risked attacking America.

Fortunately for the Yankees, the Tokyo government and the General Staff were too arrogant and arrogant: the dope of easy victories in China and Indochina caused an unjustified feeling of euphoria and the illusion of their own strength.
Japan successfully spoiled relations with the US - Back in December 1937, the Imperial Air Force planes sank the American cannon “Panay” on the Yangtze River. Confident in her own power, Japan did not seek a compromise and defiantly went to the conflict. War was inevitable.

The Americans were speeding up the process, teasing the enemy with deliberately impractical diplomatic notes and stifling economic sanctions, forcing Japan to make the only solution that seemed acceptable to her - to go to war with the United States.

Roosevelt did his best and achieved his goal.

“How should we maneuver them
"... how can we make Japan make the first shot without exposing ourselves to considerable danger"

- entry in the diary of US Secretary of War Henry Stimson from 25.11.1941, dedicated to a conversation with Roosevelt regarding the expected Japanese attack

Yes, it all started with pearl harbor.

Whether that was the “ritual sacrifice” of American foreign policy, or were the Yankees the victims of their own carelessness — we can only speculate. At least, the events of the subsequent months of the war 6 clearly indicate that Pearl Harbor could have happened without any interference of the “dark forces” - the American army and navy at the beginning of the war demonstrated their complete incapacity.

Nevertheless, the “Great Defeat at Pearl Harbor” is an artificially bloated myth with the aim of causing a wave of popular anger and creating an image of a “formidable enemy” to rally the American nation. In fact, the losses were minimal.

Japanese pilots managed to sink the 5 of ancient battleships (from 17, existing at the time as part of the US Navy), three of which were able to return to service in the period from 1942 to 1944.
In total, as a result of the raid, various injuries received 18 from the 90 ships of the United States Navy, anchored that day at Pearl Harbor. The irretrievable losses among the personnel amounted to 2402 man - less than the number of victims of the 11.09.2001 terrorist attack. The infrastructure of the base remained intact. - Everything is according to the American plan.

Often there is a statement that the main failure of the Japanese is due to the absence of American aircraft carriers in the base. Alas, even if the Japanese succeeded in burning the Enterprise and Lexington, along with the entire naval base Pearl Harbor, the outcome of the war would remain the same.

As time has shown, America could DAILY launch two or three warships of the main classes (aircraft carriers, cruisers, destroyers and submarines - minesweepers, hunters and torpedo boats) into the water.
Roosevelt knew about it. Japanese - no. Desperate attempts by Admiral Yamamoto to convince the Japanese leadership that the existing American fleet - just the tip of the iceberg and an attempt to solve the problem by military means would lead to a catastrophe, did not lead to anything.

The capabilities of the American industry made it possible to instantly compensate ANY losses, and the growing, by leaps and bounds, the US Armed Forces literally “crushed” the Japanese Empire as a powerful steamroller.

The turning point in the war in the Pacific came at the end of 1942 - the beginning of 1943: entrenched in the Solomon Islands, the Americans had gained enough strength and began to destroy the Japanese defensive perimeter with all their fury.

The perishing Japanese cruiser "Mikuma"

Everything happened as expected by the American leadership.

Further events are pure "beatings of babies" - in conditions of absolute domination of the enemy at sea and in the air, the ships of the Japanese fleet died en masse, not even having time to approach the American fleet.

After a multi-day assault on Japanese positions using aviation and naval artillery, on many tropical islands there was not a single whole tree left - the Yankees literally washed the enemy into powder.

Post-war research will show that the ratio of casualties to the personnel of the US and Japanese armed forces is described by the proportion 1: 9! By August 1945, Japan will lose 1,9 a million of its sons, the most experienced fighters and commanders will die, Admiral Yoroku Yamamoto, the most sensible Japanese commanders, will “get out of the game” (killed as a result of a special operation by the US Air Force in 1943, a rare event in storieswhen the killers are sent to the military leader).

In the fall of 1944, the Yankees threw the Japanese from the Philippines, leaving Japan with almost no oil, and the last combat-ready units of the Imperial Navy were crushed along the way - from that moment even the most desperate optimists from the Japanese General Staff lost faith in any favorable outcome of the war. Ahead loomed the prospect of landing the American troops on the sacred Japanese land, with the subsequent destruction of the country of the Rising Sun, as an independent state.

Landing on Okinawa

By the spring of 1945, from the once formidable Imperial fleet, only the burnt ruins of cruisers remained, who managed to avoid death in the open sea, and now were slowly dying from wounds in the naval base of Kure. The Americans and their allies almost completely exterminated the Japanese merchant fleet, landing insular Japan on an “empty ration”. Due to the lack of raw materials and fuel, the Japanese industry has almost ceased to exist. One by one, the major cities of Tokyo’s agglomeration turned into ashes — the massive raids of B-29 bombers became a nightmare for residents of the cities of Tokyo, Osaka, Nagoya, Kobe.

On the night of 9 on 10 in March of 1945, the most destructive raid in history using conventional weapons took place: three hundred “Super Fortresses” brought tons of incendiary bombs on 1700 to Tokyo. It was destroyed and burned over 40 square. kilometers of the city, more than 100 000 people died in the fire. Stopped factories out
Tokyo experienced a massive exodus of the population.

“Japanese cities, made of wood and paper, will catch fire very easily. The army can engage in self-praise as much as it wants, but if war breaks out and there are large-scale airstrikes, it’s scary to imagine what will happen. ”

- Admiral Yamamoto prophecy, 1939 year

In the summer of 1945, aircraft carrier raids began and massed shelling of the coast of Japan by battleships and cruisers of the US Navy - the Yankees finished off the last centers of resistance, crashed airfields, and “shook up” the naval forces Kuren, finally finishing what the sailors did not manage to finish off in the open sea .

In this form, Japan appears in the form of August 1945 of the year.

Kwangtung mayhem

There is an opinion that the 4 warrior Yankees fought with Japan, and the Red Army defeated the Japs in two weeks.

In this, at first glance, absurd statement is plainly intertwined, and truth, and fiction.
Indeed, the Manchurian operation of the Red Army is a masterpiece of military art: the classic blitzkrieg in an area equal in area to two Zap. Europe!

The breakthroughs of motorized columns through the mountains, daring landings on enemy airfields and the monstrous boilers in which our grandfathers “cooked” the Kwantung Army alive in less than a week's 1,5.
The South Sakhalin and Kuril operations were no less cool. It took our paratroopers five days to take Shumshi Island - by comparison, the Yankees stormed Iwo Jima for more than a month!

However, for each of the miracles there is a logical explanation. One simple fact speaks of what the “formidable” 850-thousandth Kwantung Army in the summer of 1945 represented: Japanese aircraft, for a combination of many reasons (lack of fuel and experienced pilots, outdated hardware, etc.), did not even try to rise in the air - the offensive of the Red Army was carried out with the absolute domination of Soviet aviation in the air.

In the units and formations of the Kwantung Army, there were absolutely no automatic weapons, anti-tank guns, rocket artillery, there were few artillery units of the Red Army and large-caliber (in infantry divisions and brigades within artillery regiments and divisions, in most cases there were 75-mm guns).

- "History of the Great Patriotic War" (t. 5, p. 548 — 549)

Not surprisingly, the Red Army 1945 model of the year simply did not notice the presence of such a strange enemy. Irretrievable losses in the operation amounted to "only" 12 thousand people. (of which half carried away diseases and accidents). For comparison: during the storming of Berlin, the Red Army lost up to 15 thousand people. in one day.
A similar situation developed in the Kuril Islands and South Sakhalin - by that time the Japanese did not even have destroyers left, the offensive took place with complete domination of the sea and in the air, and the fortifications on the Kuril Islands were not very similar to what the Yankees faced on Tarawa and Iwo Jima.

The Soviet offensive finally put Japan in a dead end - even the ghostly hope of continuing the war disappeared. Further chronology of events is as follows:

- 9 August 1945, 00: 00 Transbaikalian time - the Soviet military machine was activated, the Manchurian operation began.

- 9 August, later morning - Nagasaki nuclear bombing took place

- 10 August - Japan has officially declared its readiness to accept the Potsdam terms of surrender with the reservation to preserve the structure of imperial power in the country.

- 11 August - The US rejected the Japanese amendment, insisting on the formula of the Potsdam Conference.

- 14 August - Japan officially accepted the terms of unconditional surrender.

- 2 September - The Surrender Act of Japan was signed aboard the battleship USS Missuori in Tokyo Bay.

Obviously, the first nuclear bombing of Hiroshima (August 6) could not change the decision of the Japanese leadership to continue senseless resistance. The Japanese simply did not have time to realize the destructive power of the atomic bomb, with regard to severe destruction and civilian casualties - an example of the March bombing of Tokyo proves that no less victims and destruction had any effect on the determination of the Japanese leadership to "stand up to the last." The bombardment of Hiroshima can be viewed as a military event with the aim of destroying the strategically important object of the enemy, or as an act of intimidation towards the Soviet Union. But not as a key factor in Japan’s surrender.

With regard to the ethical point of application of nuclear weapons - bitterness in the years of the Second World War reached such proportions that anyone who had such a weapon - Hitler, Churchill or Stalin, without batting an eye, would give the order to use it. Alas, at that time only the USA had nuclear bombs - America incinerated two Japanese cities, and now, 70 has been justified for its actions for years.

The most difficult question lies in the 9 events - 14 August 1945 of the year - what became the "cornerstone" in the war, which finally made Japan change its mind and accept the humiliating conditions of surrender? Repetition of the nuclear nightmare or loss of last hope, associated with the possibility of a separate peace with the USSR?

I am afraid that we will never know the exact answer about what happened in those days in the minds of the Japanese leadership.

Tokyo on fire

Victims of barbaric bombing on the night of March 10 1945

Comments

[ism_ek]

There is an interesting Japanese film "Attack on Pearl Harbor". Look, the Japanese version of the reasons for the outbreak of the war and the reasons for the defeat of the Japanese are well stated. I doubt it was a provocation by the Japanese.
I also want to add that carpet bombing brought much more damage to Japan than two atomic attacks.

[ism_ek]

http://www.ivi.ru/watch/98606

[makst83]

Whoever says anything, option B is the Manchurian operation of the Red Army. So they taught me at school!
Which means: "killed as a result of a special operation of the US Air Force in 1943, a rare case in history when killers are sent to the commander" ... The plane on which Yamamoto was flying was shot down on April 18, 1943! Yamamoto died in this plane crash!
"By August 1945, Japan will have lost 1,9 million of its sons, the most experienced soldiers and commanders will die" so what !? This does not prevent Japan from fighting to the end, even when landing on the Japanese islands themselves and incurring greater human losses than before. They are ready to fight to the end. This, as well as the desire to show the USSR its power and will force them to commit an essentially "barbaric" crime - the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki!
The Kwantung offensive operation of the Red Army deprived the Japanese of a strategic reserve that could be used to defend the metropolis.
Py. Sy. This is just my opinion, I will not and will not intend to convince of its correctness!

[Egen]

Quote: makst83

The Kwantung offensive operation of the Red Army deprived the Japanese of a strategic reserve that could be used to defend the metropolis

Dear Maxim, also IMHO, this army was no longer a strategic reserve for the defense of the islands
It is just that by August 45, Japan was in the so-called "fatal funnel", which means that whatever action it takes, its position will be transformed into an even worse position. Moreover, any actions - from the "flight" of Yamato to the transfer of part of the troops to the islands. The position is completely losing, everything is useless.
And the author is right, everything was useless at the very beginning. It was necessary to attack the USSR - Sakhalin (for oil), the Far East and Siberia - for resources, then, in alliance with Germany, which had seized England and the Middle East, they could still have something together with America, and ...

[Prometey]

Quote: Egen

It was necessary to attack the USSR - Sakhalin (for oil), the Far East and Siberia - for resources, then, in alliance with Germany, which had seized England and the Middle East, they could still have something together with America, and ...

I hope you say this without regret. The Japanese attack on the Far East would not have given them anything in the long run - only partisanism and the defeat of the Kwantung Army not in 1945, but much faster. In the years 1938-1939. KA army showed that the Japanese are not an adversary for it.

[Egen]

Quote: Prometey

I hope you say it without regret

Yes, you know, Sergey, in general I spoke in a purely abstract way, but if you think about it, it may partly yes, in the part that I agree with the author of the article, all these Anglo-Saxons dragged us, Germans and Japanese into the war, which Of course, IMHO, historically, it was difficult to avoid, but which at those stages none of these nations needed. Therefore, it’s a shame that they rule the world, as now with Syria :(

[schta]

The Japanese butted with the Russians in the "small victorious war" of 1905 and in dances around Lake Hassan 1936, and in the summer-autumn event of 1939. Therefore, even when Hitler was sitting near Moscow and persuading the Japanese to attack the Soviets in the Far East, they did not dare to commit suicide.
besides this, one must understand that the war in the Pacific was really important for the USA and therefore absolutely inevitable. a year earlier, a year later. In addition, the United States could, as an aid to the councils, calmly attack the Japanese without any troubles with pearl harbor.

[anip]

Quote: Egen

It was necessary to attack the USSR - Sakhalin (for oil), Far East and Siberia - for resources,

There was an insignificant amount of oil on Sakhalin. The fact that the region allegedly needed Sakhalin oil was needed by Yap, there was an article, and I posted links with comments that this was far from the case, I laid out that article. At that time, there were no explored resources in the Far East; Yapi would never have reached life in Siberia.
And more:

The fact that the "formidable" 850th Kwantung Army was in the summer of 1945 is evidenced by one simple fact: Japanese aviation, for many reasons (lack of fuel and experienced pilots, outdated equipment, etc.), did not even try take off - the Red Army offensive was carried out with the absolute dominance of Soviet aircraft in the air.

Do you think that in 1941-1943 the Yapis had better life in Manchuria? How to fight?

[Egen]

Quote: anip

There was an insignificant amount of oil on Sakhalin. The fact that the region allegedly needed Sakhalin oil was needed by Yap, there was an article, and I posted links with comments that this was far from the case, I laid out that article. At that time, there were no explored resources in the Far East; Yapi would never have reached life in Siberia.

Oh, how "insignificant", but now - how much! Obviously, without geological prospecting, you can't really say anything, but using the approximation method, etc. it is possible, because on Sakhalin how many years before the convicts had been mining coal, and oil - for a long time, it was clearly clear that there was a tidbit there, the island was not so big compared to Southeast Asia.
I remembered exactly that article. Yes, there is far from so simple, but still ...
In the Far East there were ports for fish and the Navy, already something. Even during the intervention, the Japanese had every opportunity to scout whatever you want. I have no facts, but I suspect that they are far from fools and did not sit idly by.
But we already had a "garden city" in Kuzbass, and coal and ore - all this was a long time ago, since the 20s, it has been known in the West through a foreign colony that we had. Kuzbass then, of course, was far from the Urals, but still, if we take the 41st, then the Urals were not the same as in the 42nd and 44th.
- and the population in Siberia was small, and IMHO the Japanese were more than Germans adapted for winter ...

[old man54]

Quote: Egen

It was necessary to attack the USSR - Sakhalin (for oil)

Well then you write! Oil has already been found in Saakhlin after the 2nd MV, somewhere closer to the 80th year!
The Japanese did not have to contact Amers, and together with Hitler, it is "great" to screw up the Britons to the fullest, but at home, in Southeast Asia, which is what they actually did, but were greatly distracted by the Amerrians and the Pacific Ocean. So, having taken India from them, they would have reached the present Pakitsna, where oil was found even then, and Adolf would have approached from the west, having previously seized the Persian Gulf together with southern Persia! Then it would be in front of them, Germany and Japan and Italy in the wings (like a six) already perspectives drew! But ... if only in the enth case they decided to attack the USSR together, then ... I don’t know what our grandfathers would have to do then!

[Egen]

Quote: old man54

Oil has already been found in Saakhlin after the 2-th MV, somewhere closer to the 80-th year

Andrey, why so! Here is the link in full - http://samlib.ru/e/ewgenij_medwedew/istoriadodichineftinasaxaline.shtml
excerpts:
The first information about Sakhalin oil dates back to 1879 ...
As for the Japanese, they first became interested in oil in the 1916 year, when a representative of the Japanese Chamber of Commerce suggested that the Petrograd Geological Committee conduct joint research on Sakhalin. However, for a number of reasons, oil exploration work was begun by the Japanese only in the 1918 year. During the occupation of Northern Sakhalin (1920 - 1925), they began to develop deposits ...
(comm: that’s why I suggested that they could also explore the wealth of Siberia and the Far East at the same time)
In 1926, Japanese entrepreneurs established the North Sakhalin Joint-Stock Oil Company ... Oil production grew quite rapidly and by 1933 reached 195000 tons ...
In 1928, for the exploitation of the Soviet part of the island's oil fields, the USSR government created the Sakhalinneft state trust, which produced 296 tons of oil in its first year of operation. Further, there is a rapid growth: 1932 - 188900 tons, 1940 - 505000 tons, 1945 - 695100 tons ...
(comm - just our + Japanese get it if you strain up to 900tys.t.)
Immediately after the war, there was a sharp decline in Sakhalin oil production: 1946 year - 812000 tons ... The main reason is the imperfection of the technology at that time, in which most of the oil remained in the reservoirs. This seriously worried the Soviet leadership. In the oil industry of Sakhalin in 1948 - 1951 alone, 890 of millions of rubles was invested - mainly for geological exploration and drilling. Then hundreds of skilled oil workers are sent to the island. As a result, the Tungor and Kolendo deposits were discovered; In addition, in the 50 years the development of secondary production methods began, which significantly increased the efficiency of field operations. All this allowed not only to restrain the decline in production, but also to achieve its significant growth (from 735000 tons in 1947 to 2207000 tons in 1964)

- Thus, I think that it was possible to mine a million tons and even a half. This was not critical for the USSR, because - what for it is to us there, on Sakhalin, the Japanese need a currency - even if they pick themselves; and since I don’t think the Japanese are stupid in particular :), I think they could figure out such a number, because for how many years they climbed in the vicinity, and to introduce newer technologies - it’s a trifling matter, there would be money and desire.
(by the way, horses were no longer used in mines in Kuzbass only in 1972)
These 1 - 1,5 million certainly can not be compared with the millions of tons of Indonesia, but - close and practically behind, and most importantly - without hemorrhoids :)

[Egen]

Quote: old man54

The Japanese did not have to get involved with the Amers, but together with Hitler, they were "great" of the Britons to the fullest, but at home, in Southeast Asia, which they actually did, but were greatly distracted by the Amerrians and the Pacific Ocean.

Of course, it would be good if it were, but the amers stood for the shaving, and if they just climbed into Singapore without bombing the shells, they would have quickly slammed the Japanese out and 16-dm instantly. And so, even the Australians were scared, it’s true, I really can’t understand the planned effectiveness of this :)
And the fact that 16-dm is garbage versus airplanes is just what P-Harbor proved. Prior to this, there was only a theory, confirmed of course by Bismarck (in the sense of a torpedo), but - other oceans, another technique - a big risk ...
Therefore, I personally would not have climbed to the British having P-Harbor behind me. The Japanese made stupidity by dividing the fleet into parts - at the same time an attack on Hawaii and South-East Asia. It is clear that they only wanted to disable the base and the fleet, they just needed time, but they miscalculated - the respite was too short; it was necessary to pull the whole fist and wet the amers Yamatami and Nagatami :).
By the way, I was in Phoenix at the State History Museum - there is a model of "Arizona", it is told about the ship and the people - they remember, however, honor, and the people crowd.

[Egen]

Quote: old man54

But ... if only in the enth case they decided to attack the USSR, then ... I really don’t know what our grandfathers would have to do then

Yes, I would, but then they would have even less chance than Hitler, because it takes time to conquer the Arabs, and during that time:
a) the USSR would have time to debug the production and deploy large-scale 34-ok and new aircraft, and maybe the "Soviet Union" even finish building
b) then IMHO not everyone nevertheless realized the proximity of the war with the Germans, and when they reached our borders the threat became more than obvious;
c) therefore, a plan to put it this way _distribution_ of industry to the Urals, transfer to military rails and increase production would be started before aggression.
d) The United States would also have nowhere to go, agreements with the USSR would not have been waiting, etc.
- as a result, IMHO the USSR would have been more prepared for war in material and technical terms. But it’s clear that a war on several fronts is worse :(

[Santa Fe]

Quote: makst83

What does it mean: "killed as a result of a special operation of the US Air Force in 1943, a rare case in history when killers are sent to the military leader"

This means that 18 P-38 Lightning flew 700 km in complete radio silence, with only one purpose - to shoot down a Yamamoto plane. Amer broke into the Japanese code and knew where and at what time the plane would be with the admiral on board, who inspected the garrisons on the Solomon Islands.

Killers from 339 Fighter Squadron, 347 Fighter Group, 13th Air Army were notified that they would be conducting an interception of an "important senior officer" but were not informed of their target's name.

Quote: makst83

The plane on which Yamamoto flew was shot down on April 18, 1943! Yamamoto died in the crash of this plane!

But this was not a mere coincidence!

Quote: Egen

It was necessary to attack the USSR - Sakhalin (for oil

In 1941, South Sakhalin was Japanese

Japan needed oil - the only large field in the Imperial Navy's reach was in the Philippines. War with the USA was inevitable

[Egen]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Japan needed oil - the only large field in the Imperial Navy's reach was in the Philippines.

wait, and Java and other Indonesia? :)

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Egen

and Java and other Indonesia?

East Indies)))
it's all on one side

[kdn79]

Quote: Santa Fe

In 1941, South Sakhalin was Japanese

People, people! But where are the comments from so many false facts? Japan owned only the southern part of the island (without deposits of liquid hydrocarbons)! Northern Sakhalin was Soviet.

[kdn79]

Oops .. sleepy eyes did not see the word "Southern" in the quote. I apologize wildly to Santa Fe, here you said everything correctly about the belonging of this part of the island, but the main thing was not said - the absence of hydrocarbons there, which are vital for the Japanese industry and the military.

[Goldmitro]

Makst83
<< The plane that Yamamoto was flying was shot down on April 18, 1943! >>>
Yamamoto died in the plane crash! The Americans deciphered the Japanese codes and read their ciphers, from which they learned when and where the plane from Yamamoto would fly. There he was filled up! Moreover, they knew about the impending Japanese attack on the United States, but even when the Americans intercepted the encryption with a code signal - "the wind is blowing from the East" (it seems so), which marked the beginning of the attack on Pearl Harbor, Roosevelt did not give the command to declare combat readiness, because he wanted the attack to "shake up" the nation and allow it to quickly mobilize for war!

[makst83]

You are not surprised that all, well, many, US wars begin with provocations !? US - Spanish War (Cruiser Maine), US - Japanese (Pearl Harbor), US - Vietnamese Won (Tonkin Bay), Iraqi Won (Kuwait), 2 Iraq Won (anthrax powder).

[Egen]

Quote: makst83

You are not surprised that all, well, many, US wars begin with provocations

No, why be surprised? Moreover, both the 1 and 2 I MBs also started :)
War is "the continuation of politics by other means" :). The fighting of armed men is only one part. Provocations refer to the other - ideological, propaganda of training / processing / stupid (often) and their own and enemy population, for many purposes - to justify unleashing a war before the UN to raise the spirits of their soldiers / decline of others.
Having worked 15 for years in marketing and advertising, I have been convinced many times that the mechanism, methods, forms, etc. are better and more efficient. Goebbels propaganda - as a complex - no one has come up with :)
So now in Syria :( This is certainly not a topic, but I can’t resist, I probably don’t know something or don’t understand, but I don’t understand the calmness of the leadership of our country. On Monday-Tuesday, the president was in our Kuzbass. There was a meeting on the fuel and energy complex. Yes, it’s important, especially a lot was achieved not on TV :) - everything was rehearsed, and at a very high professional level; and then on the sidelines. Well, it’s drunk :) But, damn it, of course I am for the miners, but what is the use of populist speeches in public about issues that have already been decided in advance, when what is called the enemy at the gate! All this bunch of ministers on 20 private jets would have to fly somewhere to different countries - Syria, Israel, the USA, to Merkel - IMHO would be more useless :(

[Prometey]

For the most part I agree with the author. Japan's attack on the United States was an adolescent attempt to kick a sleeping heavyweight boxer. After that, the defeat of the Japanese was a matter of time. Indeed, what did the samurai attack on Pearl Harbor give? A few rusted pelvis was sunk. Even almost the entire infrastructure of the base remained intact. And for the most part, the Japanese after Russian-Japanese and World War I overestimated their strength. They would have captured several colonies and would have sat snoring, there would be goals.
As for the defeat of the Kwantung Army, we can say that this is a delayed project from the time of the Russo-Japanese war, when by the summer of 1905, 800 thousand Russian troops were concentrated in Manchuria and the tsarist government did not have the will to turn the tide of the war in the other direction.

[shurup]

Roosevelt did everything possible so as not to get involved in the war in Europe and so on, according to the text.
Roosevelt earned the Peace Prize, but, like Obama, he understood that the power of the USA could not be raised with a prize.
The atomic bombings can easily be attributed to the near Truman, the desire to report to Congress and the possibility of free full-scale tests.
It was already impossible to frighten Stalin by this.
But Manchurian is brilliant because the operation is called that it was not a battle or even a battle.
Japan was forced to surrender by the state of military-industrial potential, which the United States required, and is now required, but for the Russian Federation.
I'm more interested in how the Anglo-Saxons managed to chop off Hokkaido.
Now there would be an autonomous republic of the Ainu within the Russian Federation.

[old man54]

Quote: shurup

It was already impossible to frighten Stalin by this.

about how? Very interesting! But why was it after such a feverish air defense structure, especially around Moscow, huh? Reorientation of the tactics of the IA Air Force to the tactics of the IA Air Defense? Or do you think Stalin was and did not understand what's what?

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: old man54

But why was it after such a feverish air defense structure, especially around Moscow, huh?

So the United States, if there was a war, they were going to bomb Moscow, so ours built air defense :))) Preparing to repel aggression is one thing, and fearing it is quite another :)

Quote: old man54

Reorientation of the tactics of the IA Air Force to the tactics of the IA Air Defense?

How else? In the Second World War, our Air Force fought with the Luftwaffe, the battlefield aircraft, and the United States and Allies have always relied on stratobommers. New adversary - new tactics

[old man54]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

So the United States, if there was a war, they were going to bomb Moscow, so ours built air defense :))) Preparing to repel aggression is one thing, and fearing it is quite another :)

No, they were just scared, although of course there was no panic fear then, but still !! And it was not the very prospect of a full-scale war with the American army that scared the Kremlin, they were not afraid of this at all! since both Stalin and his generals, who had passed through the entire Second World War, had no fear of the United States and their ground army in this regard, rather the opposite, but the threat of a total atomic bombing of key administrative and industrial centers of the country (the "Drop brush" plan - " A short throw ") strongly strained the leadership of the USSR! And with the appearance of the United States in sufficient quantity, the B-36 in general caused horror, tk. for quite a long time there was nothing at all to oppose his LTH! That's it, Andrey!

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

In the Second World War, our Air Force fought with the Luftwaffe, the battlefield aircraft, and the United States and Allies have always relied on stratobommers. New adversary - new tactics

yes no, a sharp change in tactics of IA is a forced and by no means natural and "correct" decision then! The situation was close to the "check" simply, so I had to do so. This suggests that in the American "strategists" with nuclear weapons on board they saw the main threat then, which means they were more afraid of front-line aviation and even American armies on the border, that they even abandoned the Air Force IA to train a maneuverable air battle, and worked out mainly interception of a high-altitude VTS on guidance from a ground command post, which became almost the main tactical technique in the Air Force of those years. For this they paid dearly during the air battles in Egypt, at the turn of 1970. I think that you remember this sad story, I will not repeat myself!

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

I will not argue. In aviation history, I’m not so savvy.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Funny article :)))) "There are 2 two answers to the question why Japan surrendered, but both of them are wrong, Japan was dragged into the war by the evil USA, and why Japan surrendered, I don't know" :))))
Without going into the comments of individual pearls of a respected author (about the incomparability of fortifications on the islands of the Kuril ridge and so on - once again I’m convinced that for modern authors writing about history, KNOWLEDGE of history is a bad idea) I will say a few words on the issue raised
That the war was Japan lost - it was clear in 1944 to everyone, and especially to the Japanese. But they did not want to go on unconditional surrender - in the end it threatened the emperor, which was not acceptable for the Japanese. And (I believe) the real leaders of the country also did not really want to replenish the ranks of war criminals with their personalities. However, this is speculation - the fact is that by the end of the war Japan was looking for a way to surrender ... but not unconditionally. Japanese diplomats frantically searched for a country that would be ready to take on mediation functions. The logic of the Japanese is quite understandable - to demonstrate a determination to fight to the last, to convince the enemy that the final victory over Japan will be very expensive, and as an alternative - to offer capitulation, but on its own terms. But there was no suitable country. And then the gaze of Japan turned to ... the USSR.
The USSR had enormous political weight. With the USSR, the Japanese had peace. And the Japanese were ready to give anything (in some places they read that they offered us the remnants of their fleet) for the mediation of the USSR. This was Japan's last hope.
So, when the USSR entered the war, this hope evaporated. In fact, the main reason for ending the war should not be considered the entry of the USSR into the war, but the failure of Japan’s attempts to negotiate mediation with the USSR. After this failure, Japan had no chance to reach an agreement with the United States otherwise than in the form of unconditional surrender.
But still there was still a shadow of the chance that the Soviet troops would be stuck in battles with the Kwantung army, as the Americans were stuck on Iwo Jima - which could theoretically make the US think about the price of continuing the war ... But the Soviet army was not stuck, but inflicted an instant and a crushing defeat to the Japanese on the continent. It is funny to read that the Japanese army was worse equipped than the Soviet ... you might think the Japanese troops on Okinawa and Iwo Jima were better equipped!

[Egen]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

In fact, the main reason for ending the war should not be considered the entry of the USSR into the war, but the failure of Japan’s attempts to negotiate mediation with the USSR. After this failure, an agreement with the United States was reached in a different way from Japan in the form of unconditional surrender.

I agree.

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

you might think Japanese troops in Okinawa and Iwo Jima were better equipped

Better :) It depends on what is considered "equipment" :) I read somehow in English (maybe there is somewhere in Russian, I did not look for it) about the "fortifications" of the Japanese on the islands. How did they make all sorts of holes, ambushes and shelters, often literally out of nothing - underground passages from leaky gas barrels! The best "dungeons" are probably only invented in Vietnam. That's why their amers from 16-dm could not gouge! Therefore, engineering business and invention can also be completely attributed to "equipment" :)

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Egen

It is better :)

Well, let's look :) About Iwo Jima You already know, let's see what happened on Shumsha
The 73th Infantry Brigade of the 91th Infantry Division, the 31th Air Defense Regiment, the Fortress Artillery Regiment, the 11th Tank Regiment (without one company), the Kataoka Naval Base garrison, the airdrome team, and separate units were stationed there. The depth of engineering structures of the anti-airborne defense was 3-4 km, on the island there were 34 concrete artillery bunkers and 24 bunkers, 310 closed machine-gun points, numerous underground shelters for troops and military equipment up to 50 meters deep. Most of the defenses were connected by underground tunnels into a single defensive system. The Shushmu garrison was 8500 people, over 100 guns, 60 tanks. All military facilities were carefully disguised, there were a large number of false fortifications. A significant part of these fortifications was not known to the Soviet command. The Shumshu garrison could be reinforced by troops from the neighboring and also very fortified island of Paramushir (there were over 13000 troops there). This is the Japanese. And we?
The landing forces as a whole were formed from the 101th Infantry Division of the Kamchatka Defensive Region: two infantry regiments, an artillery regiment, an anti-tank fighter division, and a marine corps battalion. In total - 8363 man, 95 guns, 123 mortars, 120 heavy and 372 light pools. The landing was brought into the front line and two echelons of the main forces.
Ship forces: two patrol boats ("Dzerzhinsky" and "Kirov"), four minesweepers, two minesweepers, minelayer "Okhotsk", floating battery, eight patrol boats, two torpedo boats, a submarine, 17 transport ships and 16 special landing ships obtained from USA, 2 self-propelled barges - 64 units in total, to be supported by 128 air divisions.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

During the landing, our valiant Navy made all the mistakes he could. Coming to the island, the ships discovered artillery fire, without scaring anyone, but kindly warning the Japanese about the place and the beginning of the landing. As if as a mockery, they began to land as much as an hour after the firing (apparently, so that the Japanese have time to prepare) Because of the fear of losing overloaded ships on coastal stones, many ship commanders dropped soldiers in 100-150 meters from the coast, so according to some reports paratroopers overloaded with weapons / ammunition just drowned.
The advance detachment (combined battalion of the marine corps, from the 302 rifle regiment - machine gun and mortar companies, machine gun company, company of sappers, chemical reconnaissance platoon and reconnaissance platoon, as well as the combined company of border guards, all 1 363 people) occupied the bridgehead and coastal almost without a fight strengthening. However, the situation at sea was aggravated - Japanese coastal artillery began shelling ships with an amphibious assault, a number of them were sunk, many received direct shells. Nevertheless, by the 9 hours of 18 August, the landing of the first echelon of the main landing force (138 rifle regiment, 3 artillery battalion, company of anti-tank rifles) was completed, the landing captured two dominant heights.
But then the resistance of the Japanese increased sharply. The Japanese command continuously strengthened its forces in Shumshu by transferring them from Paramushir.
Powerful counterattacks began, supported by tanks. The battle took on an exceptionally fierce character, reaching melee fights. In the afternoon, the Japanese launched a decisive attack, throwing all their tanks into battle. At the cost of heavy losses, they moved forward, but could not drop the landing into the sea. Most of the tanks were destroyed by grenades and anti-tank rifles, then naval artillery fire was fired at them. From 60 tanks to 40, it was destroyed or damaged (the Japanese acknowledge the loss of 27 tanks). But this success came at a high price - about 200 paratroopers died.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

And only in the evening of the same day the second (and last echelon) was landed - the 373th Infantry Regiment, the artillery regiment, and the Marine Corps company. On the second day (August 19), our troops, slowly and nowhere, began to gnaw through the enemy defenses according to all the rules - by massing artillery fire.
Losses of troops sharply decreased, but the pace of the offensive also. At about 18-00 hours, the commander of the Japanese forces in the Kuril Islands sent a parliamentarian to the commander of the Soviet landing force with a proposal to begin surrender negotiations. The fighting was suspended.
So what conclusions can be drawn from all this?
The main burden of the battle was borne by the forward detachment and the first echelon of the landing with a total number of no more than 5 thousand people, but rather even less. They stormed high-quality fortifications, in which at least one and a half times superior enemy was dug. The paratroopers were forced to repel the attacks of the tank regiment. Reinforcements approached the Japanese, comparable in numbers to our landing. The operation was carried out almost without air cover (350 sorties were made, but due to bad weather - Paramushir bombed and the depth of Shumshu defense, there was no support for aviation on the front line. Artillery support of the USSR Navy was, but not serious (2 guard, minzag and minesweepers - KOSHMAR !!!). From the direction of japania there was aviation (there were attacks of our ships and ships) and coastal artillery
And?
In total, 1 general, 525 officers, 11700 soldiers were captured on Shumshu (taking into account the captured prisoners during the battle). Military equipment was taken - 40 cannons, 17 howitzers, 9 anti-aircraft guns, 214 light machine guns, 123 heavy machine guns, 20 anti-aircraft machine guns, 7420 rifles, several surviving tanks, 7 aircraft. Soviet troops lost 416 killed, 123 missing (mostly drowned during the landing), 1028 wounded, in total - 1567 people. The Japanese lost in killed and wounded 1018 people, of which over 300 were killed. On the second day (when the second rifle regiment and the artillery regiment landed), with a ratio of 12 thousand Japanese against about 7 thousand Soviet troops, the operation took on a "planned" character - ours gradually (in order to minimize losses) and methodically destroyed the Japanese, and they no longer thought about what counterattacks.
In fact, the excess of losses of the Soviet troops over the Japanese was achieved by the fact that the japam managed to pull off significantly superior forces at the moment when the second echelon of the landing had not yet landed, as well as the presence of a tank regiment among the Japanese. But even all this did not save the Japanese from defeat.
The Soviet troops (and by no means having passed the fire, water and copper pipes of the soldiers of the 1 tank Katukov, but just a division of the Kamchatka defensive region) were enough to give up the enemy in numbers by 1,5-2 times and not have tanks, decisive support neither from ships nor from planes to break the long-term enemy defenses repulsing his tank counterattacks.
Will we compare with Iwo Jima? :))))

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

The main burden of the battle was borne by the forward detachment and the first echelon of the landing with a total number of no more than 5 thousand people, but rather even less. They stormed high-quality fortifications, in which at least one and a half times superior enemy was dug. The paratroopers were forced to repel the attacks of the tank regiment. Reinforcements approached the Japanese, comparable in numbers to our landing. The operation was carried out almost without air cover (350 sorties were made, but due to bad weather - Paramushir bombed and the depth of Shumshu defense, there was no support for aviation on the front line. Artillery support of the USSR Navy was, but not serious (2 guard, minzag and minesweepers - KOSHMAR !!!). From the direction of japania there was aviation (there were attacks of our ships and ships) and coastal artillery
And?

The Russians are stronger than all, ”the patriot gasped in delight,“ they defeated everyone with the holy spirit. ”
Miracles and only, - the layman shrugs

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

In total, 1 general, 525 officers, 11700 soldiers were captured at Shumshu (taking into account captured prisoners during the battle).

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

The Japanese lost 1018 people killed and wounded, of which over 300 were killed.

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Will we compare with Iwo Jima?

Yes of course. In Iwo Jima of the 20 thousand of the Japanese garrison, 200 people survived. Amers have almost 7 thousand dead

Paradox? It seems that the Yaps did not particularly want to fight in Shumsh.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Yes of course. In Iwo Jima of the 20 thousand of the Japanese garrison, 200 people survived. Amers have almost 7 thousand dead
Paradox?

No paradox.
The Yankees bombed Iwo Jima for over 2 months. Then the monstrous US fleet for three days hollowed the Japanese with the main calibers. And then the American marines went into battle.
On the first day, 30 thousand people were disembarked (i.e., about one and a half times more than the Japanese had on the island) The landing went off without interference, and the 4 and 5 I Marines divisions began their advance inland. And only then did the Japanese strike. As a result, on the very first day of battles, the American paratroopers suffered such losses: 501 people were killed, 47 wounded, 1755 missing and 18 shocked, and all 99 people killed and wounded (excluding shell-shocked) and 2321 tanks from the landed 26.
Conclusion - after the most powerful air and artillery preparation (which was not for Shumsha), the landed Americans, having superiority in forces on land (which was not for Shumsha), had absolute air supremacy (which was not for Shumsha) with the support of tanks (which again was not was on Shumsha) acting against the defending enemy (on the Shumshu, the Japanese counterattacked, if that) lost 2,3 thousand people killed and wounded in one day against 1,5 thousand people lost Soviet troops in two days of hostilities.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

It seems that the Yaps didn’t really want to fight in Shumsh.

Well, tell us about how the Japanese on the day the Americans landed on Iwo Jima counterattacked with superior forces of infantry and tanks, how the American and Japanese soldiers grappled in melee ...

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Or they didn’t know how, however, the same thing - the intensity of the fighting was not nearly comparable with Iwo Jima

Of course. Because the intensity of the battles at Shumshu was in fact HIGHER than at Iwo Jima. Another question is that the Japanese quickly surrendered to Shumsha, stood at Iwo Jima until the last, yes. But the battles on Shumshu (while they were going on) were much more intense than the leisurely advance of the Americans along Iwo Jima.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

The Yankees bombed Iwo Jima for over 2 months. Then the monstrous US fleet for three days hollowed the Japanese with the main calibers. And then the American marines went into battle.
On the first day, 30 thousand people were disembarked (i.e., about one and a half times more than the Japanese had on the island) The landing went off without interference, and the 4 and 5 I Marines divisions began their advance inland. And only then did the Japanese strike. As a result, on the very first day of battles, the American paratroopers suffered such losses: 501 people were killed, 47 wounded, 1755 missing and 18 shocked, and all 99 people killed and wounded (excluding shell-shocked) and 2321 tanks from the landed 26.
Conclusion - after the most powerful air and artillery preparation (which was not for Shumsha), the landed Americans, having superiority in forces on land (which was not for Shumsha), had absolute air supremacy (which was not for Shumsha) with the support of tanks (which again was not was on Shumsha) acting against the defending enemy (on the Shumshu, the Japanese counterattacked, if that) lost 2,3 thousand people killed and wounded in one day against 1,5 thousand people lost Soviet troops in two days of hostilities.

Andrey, you name numbers well. Can you make a conclusion?

There are only three options:
1. Yankees - stupid curved-legged lumps
2. RKKA - semen
3. Yapi did not want to fight in Shumsha. Indirectly, this is indicated by the following fact: where were the kamikaze or banzai attacks like on Saipan?

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

There are only three options:

The fourth option - the Red Army was able to fight much better than the American Marines. That's all:)

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Yapi did not want to fight in Shumsha.

Those. hand-to-hand squads drove them into melee? :)))

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Indirectly, this is indicated by the following fact: where were the kamikaze or banzai attacks like on Saipan?

Why kamikaze on Shumsha? Kamikaze is the last way to annoy a superior enemy, because there are no other ways to inflict damage on him. The Japanese in the battles on Shumsha outnumbered the Red Army.
Oleg, the Japanese did not really resist Shumshu for long. But for two days they resisted - desperately, no worse (and even better) than their comrades from Iwo Jima. And, being in much more favorable conditions for defense, they did not achieve the slightest success.
But the fortifications on Shumsha were not much different from Iwo Jima.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

The fourth option - the Red Army was able to fight much better than the American Marines.

The overall picture of WWII does not confirm this. The combat effectiveness of the US Armed Forces as a whole did not differ from the Red Army (each had its own successes and failures, the offensives were carried out only with multiple numerical superiority) + those. Yankee equipment (LVT, etc.)

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Yapi did not want to fight in Shumsha.
Those. squads drove them into melee?

300 dead from the 11 000 garrison
it seems that not everyone went to hand-to-hand

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Why kamikaze on Shumsha?

The last kamikaze attacks took place on 18 on August 1945 of the year - at 14 at about 6 pm on the approach to Vladivostok, the Taganrog tanker was attacked by a single aircraft, but the anti-aircraft gunners famously dealt with the air target. At about the same time, in the area of ​​Shumshu Island (Kuril Ridge), a Japanese kamikaze rammed a minesweeper KT-152 (the former Neptune seiner with a displacement of 62 tons), the minesweeper was killed along with a crew of 17 people.

Interestingly, the landing would have been possible, had they been at least 10

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

But for two days they resisted - desperately, no worse (and even better) than their comrades from Iwo Jima.

Iwo Jima beach after landing.
... then M. Zadornov enters the stage with his legendary "well, stupid"

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

The overall picture of WWII does not confirm this.

Confirms, confirms :)))

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

The combat capability of the US armed forces as a whole did not differ from the Red Army

In the Navy, it exceeds by two orders of magnitude, in the air - a significant superiority of the USA, on land ... the ground forces of the Americans can not be compared with the domestic

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

300 dead from the 11 000 garrison
it seems that not everyone went to hand-to-hand

Of course. But on the first day of the landing on Iwo Jima, the Japanese attacked the Americans exclusively with fire.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Interestingly, the landing would have been possible, had they been at least 10

I repeat once again - why kamikaze, when you could just bomb our cow? The Japanese just bombed :)))

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Iwo Jima beach after landing.

What is this for? :)

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Confirms, confirms

Where she confirms if the Germans tore all allies to shreds (regardless of their race and nationality) - until the Wehrmacht was exhausted
No unique combat readiness / training / ingenious tactics were observed on either our or the American side (with a few exceptions, of course) - bloody porridge, abandoned equipment and crush with numerical superiority, the Yankees were partially saved by their aircraft

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

on land ... the land forces of the Americans can not be compared with domestic

Justification?

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

I repeat once again - why kamikaze, when you could just bomb our cow? The Japanese just bombed :)))

Well, and how are you doing?
Did a lot of sorties?

I remember Dorsetshire and Cornwell had 50 bombers
Or maybe the bombers were not like that?

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

This is what?

A mountain of broken equipment. Probably stupid Yankees broke her in an accident, colliding with each other on a narrow beach

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Where she confirms

Oleg, do I need to retell the fighting of the second half of 1944? :) I, of course, can, but ...

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Or maybe the bombers were not like that?

The bombers, esessno, were "not like that" - where did normal pilots get it at the end of the war? But in the case of Iwo Jima, there were none at all.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

A mountain of broken equipment.

Hde? :))) In addition to the four cars in the foreground (which look quite serviceable), I don’t see anything mountains or equipment

[Egen]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Hde? :))) In addition to the four cars in the foreground (which look quite serviceable), I don’t see anything mountains or equipment

In general, as far as sclerosis does not change me, the Japanese did a good job of strengthening shallow water with barriers from concrete to just stakes, and the Americans did not immediately learn how to avoid large losses during landing. Therefore, the photo may not be entirely accurate but in the subject :)

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

me what, retell the fighting of the second half of 1944?

better than the first half of 1942

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

In the Navy, it exceeds by two orders of magnitude, in the air - a significant superiority of the USA, on land ... the ground forces of the Americans can not be compared with the domestic

It turns out that, by a strange coincidence, they recruited alternatively gifted and physically retarded babies-fortunes into the US ground forces

Could Garand be any worse than Mosinki? Communication problems? Armored personnel carriers and armored personnel carriers?
Incompetent command? hardly. The Yankees were far from L. Mehlis
No heroism? Well, for example, the machine gunner Cole - what is not an example?

Then what is the basis for the assertion about the "weakness" of the American Army and the ILC in comparison with domestic ones? The first meetings with the Germans for both allies ended in defeat.
By 1944, the Red Army, undoubtedly, had more experience in maintaining a database on land ... the Yankees compensated for the lack of experience of land forces with aviation and technology

So here, whatever one may say, miracles could not be. About Shumsha - obviously like a day: no one wanted to fight. Under normal WWII conditions, such landings ended in defeat in a couple of hours (Disaster near Dieppe, Theodosia landing operation ~ you probably ask why I cited the Germans as an example? Because there were 78 classic landings at the Pacific Fleet: amers landed with multiple numerical superiority, after many days of artillery preparation, otherwise failure and bloody mess are provided)

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

better than the first half of 1942

Oleg, I bring you back to the origins :))) We talked about the combat readiness of the US and USSR troops during the landing on Iwo Jima - the landing on Shumsha. What does the first half of 1942 g have to do with it?
But if you want to compare 1942 - read for a start the wonderful book by Samuel W. Mitchum and David Rolfe "The War in North Africa", "The Bloody Road to Tunisia" - and you will be different from the US Army from the Soviet Army. In short, the USSR had an army as of the 1st half of 1942. Somewhere the commanders were stronger, somewhere weaker. The US simply did not have an army. As shown by the landing in Africa.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

The Yankees were far from L. Mehlis

Three times ha. Learn how Fridendall commanded.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

No heroism?

Not only is there no heroism - even there is no desire to fight, but there is a desire to run away whenever the situation is complicated.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

We talked about the combat effectiveness of the US and USSR troops during the landing on Iwo Jima - the landing on Shumsha

The Yankees experience many times more naval landing operations

A certain lack of experience in maintaining a database deep inland was well compensated by better equipment and powerful fire support from the aviation and navy

There could be no miracles

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

In short - the USSR as of the 1st half of 1942 had an army. Somewhere the commanders were stronger, somewhere weaker. The US Army just didn’t.

The first meeting with the Germans was a disaster for both
Remember what happened in the USSR in the summer of 1941.

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Three times ha. Learn how Fridendall commanded.

He lost 160 thousand people?
And this is with the balance of forces 2: 1 in their favor. And the loss of 20: 1 (an example based on Kerch)

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Not only is there no heroism - even there is no desire to fight, but there is a desire to run away whenever the situation is complicated.

You can laugh as much as you like, but "drap", order 227 and detachments are a historical fact
Like 4,5 million prisoners of war in 1941.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

There could be no miracles

Oleg, you can repeat this mantra for a long time, only one very good historian said a very correct phrase: "Logic is the enemy of the historian" In general, a lot of illogical things have happened in history, and when studying history you need to study HISTORY, and not put some historical facts into a logical scheme convenient for you.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

He lost 160 thousand people?
And this is with the balance of forces 2: 1 in their favor. And the loss of 20: 1 (an example based on Kerch)

Oleg, just read the source :)))

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

In history, a lot of illogical things happened in general, and when studying history, you need to study HISTORY, and not put some historical facts into a logical scheme convenient for you.

Putting facts into a convenient scheme is your path
But in fact we have the following:

a) the Soviet landing achieved success, despite the disgusting planning and preparation for the operation;
b) the loss of the Japanese garrison 300 people. from 11 000

The first fact automatically leads to suspicion - something unique happened; ALL WWII experience shows that such landings are in a couple of hours in the sea
Appealing to the uniqueness of the Red Army is unreasonable - the Red Army and the US Armed Forces had their pros and cons, in general, taking into account all types of troops, their ground combat ammunition was identical

As for the Japanese losses - this is the explanation. The Japas have never fought like this.
From popular literature, but still:

On Saipan, preparing for the final battle, the Japanese
got drunk and went to American positions, followed them
cripples who were raised for an honorable death in battle. 300
bedridden killed in advance. This crowd looking for
death, even a hurricane could not stop.

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Oleg, just read the source :)))

And what will it give?
Your argument about the "peace doll" (Friedendoll ) would make sense if such cases were not recorded in the Red Army

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

But in fact we have the following:

Well, let's see

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

a) the Soviet landing achieved success, despite the disgusting planning and preparation for the operation;

It is a fact

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

b) the loss of the Japanese garrison 300 people. from 11 000

This is also a fact.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

The first fact automatically leads to suspicion - something unique happened; ALL WWII experience shows that such landings are in a couple of hours in the sea

But this has nothing to do with the facts - this is the speculation of one famous author named Oleg Kaptsov. Based on the fact that the British and American troops did not have such landings. You don't know that the Soviet troops WERE such landings. But ours carried out very large landings with minimal involvement of naval (and air) personnel - by the standards of the Anglo-Saxons, it's like nothing at all. In more detail, you can familiarize yourself with the Red Army landings by reading "Amphibious operations of the Armed Forces of the USSR. Marines in the pre-war period and during the Great Patriotic War. 1918-1945" V. Zhumatia can be found here
http://coollib.net/b/160389
So, Oleg, does not roll your explanation. Or we must admit that none of those against whom we were landing wanted to fight - neither the Japanese, nor the Chinese, nor the Germans, nor the Finns :))))

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Appealing to the uniqueness of the Red Army is unreasonable - the Red Army and the US Armed Forces had their pros and cons, in general, taking into account all types of troops, their ground combat ammunition was identical

This is just an example of how factology is replaced by judgment - having invented an axiom for yourself (US Army = Red Army), you diligently adjust reality to fit it, not noticing that any Anglo-American would simply drown himself from the "preparation" that ours carried out before the landing right away, so as not to suffer during disembarkation. And ours landed ...

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Oleg, just read the source :)))

And what will it give?

Yes, indeed :)))) Why does Oleg need a source? :))))))
What am I writing about - for some reason today, in order to write about history it is absolutely not necessary to know it ....

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

You don’t know about the fact that such landings were with the Soviet troops.

I do not pretend to know everything
And what is known - the Arctic, Small Earth, Kerch - is a key feature: the lack of long-term German fortifications - the landings were carried out on an unprepared deserted coast (or in the urban development zone, as in Nikolaev or Yevpatoriya). the second feature - at best, the landing was blocked on a tiny bridgehead. At worst, it was killed and dumped into the sea.

That's what a small force landing is.

 Or we must admit that none of those against whom we were landing wanted to fight - neither the Japanese, nor the Chinese, nor the Germans, nor the Finns :))))

300 dead from 11 thousand garrison - so Yapi never fought

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

After all, ours carried out very large landings with minimal involvement of the naval (and air) personnel - by the standards of the Anglo-Saxons it’s all the same nothing at all.

Desiring to preserve Malaya Zemlya at all costs, the command detached three air corps from the Stavka reserve, which ensured air superiority and bombing of German positions. Aviation managed to destroy two German airfields, after which the intensity of the bombing of Malaya Zemlya immediately decreased.

The fighting on the Malaya Zemlya lasted another three and a half months. On September 9, an operation began to take Novorossiysk, in which the bridgehead in the Stanichki area played a role - one of the three groups of troops attacked it, ensuring the blocking and capture of the city. By September 16, Novorossiysk was released. This date is also considered the end date of the defense of Malaya Zemlya, which lasted 225 days.

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

This is just an example of how factology is replaced by judgment - having invented an axiom for yourself (US Army = RKKA), you carefully adjust reality to it.

The reality of Andrey is that people are the same everywhere

Each army had its own strengths and weaknesses,
RKKA - motivation
USA - Aviation

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

And what will it give?
Yes, indeed :)))) Why does Oleg need a source?

This is you phrase out of context
The argument about the incompetent command of the Fridendall would make sense if there were no such cases in the Red Army

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Oleg, to answer a person who is not in the know and does not want to be in the know is lazy. Just a comment

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Desiring to preserve Malaya Zemlya at all costs, the command detached three air corps from the Stavka reserve, which ensured air superiority and bombing of German positions

You can explain (not to me. I know how ours landed and fought there), but at least explain to yourself how the allocation of 3 AK for the DEFENSE of the Small Earth (i.e., obviously AFTER the landing) is related to the landing?

[Marconi41]

A very impressive excursion into history. With respect.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Thank!:)

[Egen]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Well, let's look :) About Iwo Jima You already know, let's see what happened on Shumsha

Good day, Andrey!
Yes, I know, here recently this article was, and so I ... almost the same thing :) Only here is an incomplete example - "other times, other .. everything else" :) And by the way, your example also shows the difference between Russians and Americans in that war ...

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Egen

Yes, I know, here recently this article was

??? I wrote it for alternativehistory! :)))

[Egen]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

??? I wrote it for alternativehistory! :)))

About our landing? Wait a minute, I certainly saw off the President yesterday, because I didn’t sleep at night, but I still didn’t completely ... that ... :) I read this word for word ... Why are you in sclerosis, this ... it seems like not so much. .. :)

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Original article here http://alternathistory.org.ua/naskolko-vozmozhno-uspeshnaya-vysadka-sovetskikh-v
oisk-na-khokkaido, I there examined the possibility of our landing in Hokkaido, and took Shumsha as an example :)

[Egen]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Original article here

no, no, it is here on the site, unfortunately, my passion for alternative history runs counter to the possibilities in time :(, because there’s simply no time to be on that wonderful site :( But probably there wasn’t your article here, but a similar one with similar words .. I won’t lie, details :) I don’t remember the article :( But without pictures and a little more - for sure :)

[Rider]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Original article here http://alternathistory.org

Andrey, for your battles with fonceppelin, I shake my hand and take off my hat.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Thank you! But, I must say that, unlike many of my opponents, it was possible to talk with Von constructively - he was not deaf to logic

[Egen]

Quote: Rider

Andrey, for your battles with fonceppelin, I shake my hand and take off my hat.

also read - sorry, not thoughtfully - no time :(
I join
Andrey, there is a serious offer - translate everything into an e-book! Indeed, a lot of valuable, albeit contradictory :) information has been gathered in one place, and not just information and facts, but analysis and opinions!

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Thanks for your kind words:)))

Quote: Egen

Andrey, there is a serious offer - translate everything into an e-book!

Ummm ... what is it like? What exactly would you recommend to include in such a book?

[Egen]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Ummm ... what is it like? What exactly would you recommend to include in such a book?

And that's it :) Namely:
- description of events
- prerequisites, the situation, in general, how we got to this :)
- interpretation of events, both official and in the light of new facts
- analysis of events (tactical, operational, strategic) in the light of new data, and most importantly - taking into account external factors (the so-called factor analysis)
- framed opinions of forum participants on the vision and interpretation of the same events / facts
- application: facts (orders, reports, memoirs, publications - possibly from different sides)

Here's something like this offhand :)

How - in pdf :)
In general, all that is, only a little structured and without personal visits :)
I tried once in my youth, but then there wasn’t much experience in strategic planning :), but now I don’t have time :(
"the experience gained over the years successfully replaces the mind wasted over the years" - true, but not always (successfully) :(

[Standard Oil]

The Axis countries could not stop in time, having swallowed a huge chunk, like Germany, which had all of Europe and a huge "Living space" at its disposal, but they still "turned their gaze to the East" I ask, why the hell did you give up these endless spaces on east, what are you going to do with them? Well, there are communists whom you do not like, but they do not even fight with you, at least deal with England first, which at its last gasp in horror awaited the invasion and all the will of the British people was kept solely on obstinacy Che, and the Germans offered the British very tempting peace conditions. There is nothing to say about Italy, I’m even ashamed of the Italian army. About the sixes and "brothers" of the Slavs who are throwing Russia over and over again like Bulgaria or Romania, who sold themselves first to the Germans and then to the Americans. nothing, the heroes of Plevna and Shipka probably turned over in their grave. For Japan, after her victory in the Russo-Japanese War, the era of freebies and hack began, there is not a single strong neighbor nearby, there isonly a weakened Russia and China, fragmented and mired in the chaos of civil wars, plus every little thing, a similar question to the Japanese command, you control almost all of Southeast Asia, Korea, half of China, why did you flog on the United States, why make an enemy a country whose industrial power surpasses all the OSI countries combined, plus full provision of all resources? What did you count on? There is no oil? Well, look, especially in the same Southeast Asia, in addition to the American Philippines, there were oil reserves that were produced by the Dutch Royal Dutch Shell, and the Netherlands was occupied Nazis, seize them and everything and no American embargo is scary, plus it was possible not to pinch the USSR in Mongolia, but to buy oil from it. But the Japanese considered themselves "Tough guys" who can do everything, and they needed a couple of nuclear mushrooms over their hometowns and the defeat in China to bring the Japanese command to life. By the way, after he learned about the attack on Pearl Harbor by the Japanese, Che happily said that: "We are supposedly saved."

[Prometey]

Quote: Standard Oil

About sixes and "brothers" Slavs throwing Russia over and over again like Bulgaria or Romania

The Bulgarians are generally a misunderstanding among the Slavs, but what about the Romanians — what generally deserves respect about them — that their ancestors once fought with the Romans?

[chenia]

The war with Japan is Stalin's mistake. Yaposhat and so would give Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands (and there would be no problems now), and even Hokkaido (but this is for additional supplies. Just kidding.)

The union would prohibit the use of nuclear weapons against the civilian population (and against the army in this form it is ineffective). And we know how amers fought with in Korea and Vietnam. And there would be a bagpipe for decades.

As a result, we would not have problems with the territories and relations with Japan would be much better.

[optimist]

Interesting article. It is amazing how easily amers make the whole world dance to their tune for the last 100 years. So our country has been under their full influence for a quarter of a century. Of course, it is a sin to say and even think like that, but the third world war, which is now starting, is the only chance to destroy this abomination completely. To paraphrase them themselves: "Good American, -dead American!" As long as this u.observatory state exists, which is a collection of human waste from all over the world, the population of the Earth will never live in peace. Well, as for the Japanese and their loss in the 3nd MV: a classic case of human stupidity and arrogance ...

[Prometey]

Quote: optimist

Of course, it is a sin to say and even think that, but the third world war, which is now starting, is the only chance to destroy this abomination completely. To paraphrase them themselves: "Good American, -dead American!" As long as this u.observatory state exists, which is a collection of human waste from all over the world, the population of the Earth will never live in peace.

Optimist, I will not agree with you about the Americans. I had a chance to talk with a small number of these comrades, and I can say that among them there are many decent people who are against the outbreak of war by their state around the world. Yes, the media fool them, but I’m sure that for the most part, the majority of the population does not need a war, even outside their territory. It is not their fault that America is ruled by an aggressive Masonic group that takes advantage of the most powerful military machine. Their political regime deserves annihilation, and for the most part the people have nothing to do with it.

[optimist]

Quote: Prometey

I had a chance to talk with a small number of these comrades, and I can say that among them there are many decent people who are against the outbreak of war by their state around the world. Yes, the media fool them, but I’m sure that for the most part, the majority of the population does not need a war, even outside their territory.

I can tell you the same thing about the same Germans. For the most part, these are the cutest people! But they became such as a result of the fact that they were mixed twice with the shit by winners twice in the last century. And they finally realized that it’s not worth fighting. The same needs to be done by the Americans.

[Egen]

Quote: Prometey

Optimist, I will not agree with you about the Americans. I had a chance to chat with a small number of these comrades

Quote: optimist

I can tell you the same thing about the same Germans. For the most part, these are the cutest people! But they became such as a result of the fact that they were mixed twice with the shit by winners twice in the last century.

Sergey and Alexey, you are both right :)
I talked with the Americans more, well, it was :), as well as with the Germans and with the Chinese and with the Japanese and even Australians ...
What I want to say: instinct is somewhere nearby :) That is, IMHO, there are 2 sides of the individual mentality coin.
1) Yes, ordinary Americans are largely duped ... let's say, "Freemasons", a pretty correct term. The main evil is in them, well, yes, a lot has been written by me and everyone.
2) But still in each person sits something internal that makes him feel some kind of superiority over some others. Moreover, the richer the country / person, the stronger this feeling. And rightly so, such swagger can only be knocked out by force.
- here in these 2 moments IMHO is the manipulation of the masses. This is, of course, simplified, I'm not a psychologist ... but the conclusion: the English "carrot and stick" method is still the most effective :)

[anip]

The fact that the "formidable" 850th Kwantung Army was in the summer of 1945 is evidenced by one simple fact: Japanese aviation, for many reasons (lack of fuel and experienced pilots, outdated equipment, etc.), did not even try take off - the Red Army offensive was carried out with the absolute dominance of Soviet aircraft in the air.

I wonder why, then, the Yapi planned to fight the USSR before the Second World War, and during the Second World War itself? Megalomania?

America has incinerated two Japanese cities, and now, for 70 years, it has been making excuses for its actions.

Well, yes. That is in Japan, and in the United States itself, the people think that the USSR dropped atomic bombs.

[Prometey]

Quote: anip

Well, yes. That is in Japan, and in the United States itself, the people think that the USSR dropped atomic bombs.

And do not share the link. I doubt that neither are so stupid

[kdn79]

And do not share the link. I doubt that neither are so stupid

I have just talked to a nice woman - a correspondent for Moskovsky Komsomolets on this topic. She spent six days in Tokyo and came to the same conclusion: more than half of the population is sure that the USSR dropped the atomic bombs. Moreover, the Japanese assured her (sincerely believing in this themselves) that the Soviet Union began a war against Japan ... after her surrender!
Something like that ... And fuck them convince.

[smiths xnumx]

The forces that were allocated to protect the islands of the metropolis were impressive in numerical terms: in Japan there were still approximately 2 million 350 thousand officers and soldiers of the regular army and army aviation. These were 53 infantry divisions, 25 infantry brigades, 2 divisions and 7 brigades of armored forces. Air defense was assigned to four air defense divisions. Due to possible problems with internal security, the military police forces were increased to 20 thousand people. In addition to the regular army, there were 2 people in the ranks of army building units, 250 in the building units of the fleet, and 000 were in the Special Garrison Forces.
Apart from the army itself, there was also a mass appeal of all healthy citizens to various militia units (militia): “on paper” the number of these formations reached 28 million men and women.

http://www.e-reading-lib.com/bookreader.php/1000762/Dzhouett_Filip_-_Yaponskaya_

army._1942-1945.html

The Navy had a Combined Fleet, which included the 2nd Fleet (three battleships, four aircraft carriers, a cruiser, ten destroyers); 6th Fleet (52 submarines). The main forces were concentrated in the Inland Sea. The United Fleet also included the 1st and 3rd Air Fleets and the 11th Air Fleet.
In total, taking into account the aviation of the ground forces in the region of Japan, 626 aircraft were concentrated: on about. Taiwan - 1st Air Fleet (50 aircraft), 8th Air Division (126 aircraft); in the western part of Japan and on about. Ryukyu - 3rd Air Fleet (200 aircraft); in the southern part of about. Kyushu - 11th air flotilla (200 aircraft); in the Kanto area, the 6th Air Army (50 aircraft); including aviation, based on about. Hokkaido, about 870 fighters and about 1200 anti-aircraft guns could be used to provide air defense to Japan.
The invasion by the anti-Japanese coalition countries of the southernmost of the largest islands of the Japanese ridge, Kyushu, was codenamed Olympic and was scheduled for November 1945. Operation Cornet should have developed the attack on the islands of the metropolis — landing on Honshu on March 1, 1946. B These operations were supposed to involve more than 3000 vessels: this would be one of the largest landing operations in history. Operation Olympic was assigned to the American 6th Army, which included three marine divisions, one armored and nine infantry divisions. American strategists believed that the combined invasion of Kyushu and Honshu (Operation Downfall) would cost the loss of at least 250 thousand soldiers: the Japanese must fight with fanatic tenacity for their homeland.
Here is a famous photo of Japanese mini-submarines captured by the Americans:

Yours!

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Kuznetsov 1977

The forces that were allocated to protect the islands of the metropolis were impressive in numerical terms: in Japan there were still approximately 2 million 350 thousand officers and soldiers of the regular army and army aviation. These were 53 infantry divisions, 25 infantry brigades, 2 divisions and 7 armored forces brigades.

Let's get it right. Where did these divisions come from?
Sort of 4 divisions, including a tank one, were taken from the Kwantung army. It was quite a personnel and combat-ready units. The rest of the Japanese formed during three waves of mobilization.
During the first stage of mobilization, 16 divisions were obtained (of which 10 were coastal defense), these were comparatively adequate divisions (as far as the concept is adequate generally applicable to Japanese ground forces)
These 4 + 16 = 20 divisions can safely be combat-ready. And then ...
During the second wave of mobilization, 8 infantry divisions and 6 separate tank brigades were formed. These formations were staffed by rank and file officers, but failed to fully provide them with weapons and military equipment. Available stocks met the needs of divisions for rifles only by 50 percent, light machine guns by 23 percent, field artillery by 28 percent, anti-tank artillery by 74 percent and mountain artillery by 75 percent
In other words, the parts were provided with equipment well if half. Whether there was at least one tank in the tank brigades is unknown to me. Maybe it was, of course.
But this seemed not enough to the Japanese. Therefore, during the third wave of mobilization, they formed another 18 divisions and 14 brigades.
Thus, it can be argued that the second and (especially) third wave of mobilization was carried out ... well, I don’t know for anyone, purely in the Japanese style, to divert our eyes to ourselves. But in reality, Japan had (taking into account the training divisions that were in the metropolis) approximately 28-30 divisions of which at least 10 were low-mobility coastal defense divisions.

Quote: Kuznetsov 1977

The Navy had a United Fleet

The Japanese no longer had any Joint Fleet at their disposal. Because the last departure of the ships of the fleet to the sea took place on April 6, 1945 - the battleship Yamato, a light cruiser and 8 destroyers left for their last battle. This was all the Japanese were able to scrape together fuel, the rest of the ships, although theoretically they could go to sea, but due to lack of fuel were chained to the berths.

Quote: Kuznetsov 1977

In total, taking into account aviation of ground forces in the region of Japan, 626 aircraft were concentrated

Given that in June 1944, the US OS58 actually destroyed the 1 Japanese air fleet (about 1000 aircraft) in the Mariana Islands in about a week of military operations, then the combat value

Quote: Kuznetsov 1977

870 fighter

scattered across all the Japanese islands is hard to underestimate :)))

[smiths xnumx]

Dear Andrey, I agree with you that the Japanese were extremely short of weapons, including such as rifles and light machine guns, nevertheless we recall the facts:
1. Fights for the island of Guadalcanal (Solomon Islands), August 1942-February 1943. Of the 36 thousand participating Japanese, 31 thousand were killed, about one thousand surrendered. 7 thousand dead from the American side.
2. Landing on the island of Saipan (Mariana Islands), June-July 1944.
The island was protected by 31 thousand Japanese; at least 25 thousand Japanese civilians lived on it. Of the defenders of the island, 921 people were captured. When no more than 3 thousand people remained of the defenders, the commander of the island's defense and his senior officers committed suicide, having previously ordered their soldiers to go to the Americans in a bayonet and end their lives in battle. All who received this order followed it to the end. All the wounded, who were able to move, hobbled behind the soldiers walking to the American positions, helping each other. 3 thousand deaths from the American side. When it became clear that the island would fall, the Emperor turned to the civilian population with a decree, in which he recommended committing suicide, but not surrendering to the Americans, promising a place of honor in the afterlife next to the soldiers of the imperial army. Of the 25 thousand civilians, about 20 thousand committed suicide! People threw themselves off the rocks, dragging young children with them! The rest of the world got the names "Suicide Cliff" and "Banzai Cliff" ...
3. Landing on Leyte Island (Philippines), October-December 1944.
Of the 55 thousand Japanese (4 divisions), 49 thousand died. 3,5 thousand dead from the American side.
4. Landing on the island of Guam (Mariana Islands), July-August 1944.
The island was defended by 22 thousand Japanese, 485 people surrendered. 1747 dead from the American side.
5. Landing on the island of Luzon (Philippines), January-August 1945.
The Japanese garrison had a population of 250 thousand people. 205 thousand died, 9050 surrendered. 8, 5 thousand killed on the American side.
6. Landing on the island of Iwo Jima, February-March 1945. The Japanese garrison of the island is 18-18 thousand people. 5 surrendered in captivity. Almost 216 thousand killed on the American side.
7. Landing on the island of Okinawa.
The Japanese garrison of the island - about 85 thousand, with mobilized civilians - over 100 thousand. The garrison was deprived of air support and tanks, but otherwise organized the defense in the same way as it was organized on the two main islands of the archipelago - mobilized as many civilians as could use on supporting roles, and created a powerful network of fortifications connected by underground tunnels. With the exception of direct hits in the embrasures, these fortifications did not take even the 406-mm shells of the main caliber of the American battleships. Killed 110 thousand people. No more than 10 thousand surrendered, almost all of them were mobilized civilians. When only the command group remained from the garrison, the commander and his chief of staff committed suicide in the traditional samurai way, and their remaining subordinates with a bayonet attack on American positions. The Americans lost 12 thousand killed.
The number of civilian casualties is still unknown and is estimated from 42 to 150 thousand people (the entire pre-war population of the island is 450 thousand).
I hope you will not dispute the fact that the Japanese would defend their islands with the despair of the doomed. Nevertheless, the blow of the Red Army left no chance for Japanese politicians, and they preferred to capitulate. Yours faithfully!

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Kuznetsov 1977

nevertheless recall the facts

Yes, of course, the facts are exactly as you described them.
I did not write at all to declare that the landing in Japan would be an easy walk for the Americans, but with the fact that the actual number of forces in Japan is lower than the calculation of the number of divisions.

[vitek1233]

REASONS FOR JAPAN'S CAPITULATION ARE VISIBLE IN IMPOSSIBILITY TO Wage WAR WITH EXCELLENT FORCE OF AN OPPONENT

[stalkerwalker]

Without options.
Option A is for those who "teach" Hollywood history.

... However, for each of the miracles there is a logical explanation. One simple fact speaks of what the “formidable” 850-thousandth Kwantung Army was in the summer of 1945: Japanese aviation, for many reasons (lack of fuel and experienced pilots, outdated equipment, etc.), did not even try to get up into the air - the Red Army offensive was carried out with the absolute dominance of Soviet aviation in the air ...
850 thousand - payroll. With "voluntarily" called up, the number reached 2 million people.
And the author of the article would like the Red Army to advance "head-on", without aviation support?
And "... then, it would be a heroic feat !!! ...".
Well this is necessary ...

[alexpro66]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Funny article :)))) "There are 2 two answers to the question why Japan surrendered, but both of them are wrong, Japan was dragged into the war by the evil USA, and why Japan surrendered, I don't know" :))))
Without going into the comments of individual pearls of a respected author (about the incomparability of fortifications on the islands of the Kuril ridge and so on - once again I’m convinced that for modern authors writing about history, KNOWLEDGE of history is a bad idea) I will say a few words on the issue raised
That the war was Japan lost - it was clear in 1944 to everyone, and especially to the Japanese. But they did not want to go on unconditional surrender - in the end it threatened the emperor, which was not acceptable for the Japanese. And (I believe) the real leaders of the country also did not really want to replenish the ranks of war criminals with their personalities. However, this is speculation - the fact is that by the end of the war Japan was looking for a way to surrender ... but not unconditionally. Japanese diplomats frantically searched for a country that would be ready to take on mediation functions. The logic of the Japanese is quite understandable - to demonstrate a determination to fight to the last, to convince the enemy that the final victory over Japan will be very expensive, and as an alternative - to offer capitulation, but on its own terms. But there was no suitable country. And then the gaze of Japan turned to ... the USSR.
The USSR had enormous political weight. With the USSR, the Japanese had peace. And the Japanese were ready to give anything (in some places they read that they offered us the remnants of their fleet) for the mediation of the USSR. This was Japan's last hope.
So, when the USSR entered the war, this hope evaporated. In fact, the main reason for ending the war should not be considered the entry of the USSR into the war, but the failure of Japan’s attempts to negotiate mediation with the USSR. After this failure, Japan had no chance to reach an agreement with the United States otherwise than in the form of unconditional surrender.
But still there was still a shadow of the chance that the Soviet troops would be stuck in battles with the Kwantung army, as the Americans were stuck on Iwo Jima - which could theoretically make the US think about the price of continuing the war ... But the Soviet army was not stuck, but inflicted an instant and a crushing defeat to the Japanese on the continent. It is funny to read that the Japanese army was worse equipped than the Soviet ... you might think the Japanese troops on Okinawa and Iwo Jima were better equipped!

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

[alexpro66]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Funny article :)))) "There are 2 two answers to the question why Japan surrendered, but both of them are wrong, Japan was dragged into the war by the evil USA, and why Japan surrendered, I don't know" :))))
Without going into the comments of individual pearls of a respected author (about the incomparability of fortifications on the islands of the Kuril ridge and so on - once again I’m convinced that for modern authors writing about history, KNOWLEDGE of history is a bad idea) I will say a few words on the issue raised
That the war was Japan lost - it was clear in 1944 to everyone, and especially to the Japanese. But they did not want to go on unconditional surrender - in the end it threatened the emperor, which was not acceptable for the Japanese. And (I believe) the real leaders of the country also did not really want to replenish the ranks of war criminals with their personalities. However, this is speculation - the fact is that by the end of the war Japan was looking for a way to surrender ... but not unconditionally. Japanese diplomats frantically searched for a country that would be ready to take on mediation functions. The logic of the Japanese is quite understandable - to demonstrate a determination to fight to the last, to convince the enemy that the final victory over Japan will be very expensive, and as an alternative - to offer capitulation, but on its own terms. But there was no suitable country. And then the gaze of Japan turned to ... the USSR.
The USSR had enormous political weight. With the USSR, the Japanese had peace. And the Japanese were ready to give anything (in some places they read that they offered us the remnants of their fleet) for the mediation of the USSR. This was Japan's last hope.
So, when the USSR entered the war, this hope evaporated. In fact, the main reason for ending the war should not be considered the entry of the USSR into the war, but the failure of Japan’s attempts to negotiate mediation with the USSR. After this failure, Japan had no chance to reach an agreement with the United States otherwise than in the form of unconditional surrender.
But still there was still a shadow of the chance that the Soviet troops would be stuck in battles with the Kwantung army, as the Americans were stuck on Iwo Jima - which could theoretically make the US think about the price of continuing the war ... But the Soviet army was not stuck, but inflicted an instant and a crushing defeat to the Japanese on the continent. It is funny to read that the Japanese army was worse equipped than the Soviet ... you might think the Japanese troops on Okinawa and Iwo Jima were better equipped!

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
The most competent answer to the article! I recommend modders put it as the main article!

[Hitrovan07]

It is amazing how the whole world continues to dance with pleasure to the American tune (see the latest news on Syria).

[unknown]

Japan, like Germany, was an "icebreaker" without knowing it and unwillingly.
Great Britain, with Hitler’s hands, fought for its hegemony in Europe, and the USA, with Japan’s hands, destroyed the British Empire.
The third "icebreaker" was the USSR. Stalin, having reached an agreement with the United States behind Trotsky's back, began, as it seemed to him, to pursue his policy. At the same time, relying entirely on American economic aid, in reality acting according to the American plan for the establishment of a unipolar world.
In fact, both the Great October Homosexual Revolution and the WWII and the economic crisis and WWII were just the steps along which the overseas Illuminati rose to the top of world domination.
What as a result and achieved.
True, the question remains: was it worth Britain clinging to its empire if, according to an audit (conducted after the collapse of the empire), it was proved that the empire was a loss-making enterprise

[fedorru]

A.P. Beloborodov, in his book "Breakthrough to Harbin", also touched upon this topic, which influenced more strongly the surrender of Japan. So at that time he was the commander of the 1st Red Banner Army with which he participated in the defeat of the Kwantung Army. interrogated many captured Japanese generals, as well as soldiers and junior officers, during interrogations they never mentioned the atomic bombs dropped by the Americans on Japanese cities. But the moral impact on the Japanese military personnel by the capture of Berlin by Soviet troops and the Manchurian strategic offensive operation led them to the thought of the imminent surrender of Japan. In Tokyo, they were simply shocked that the entire Kwantung army was defeated within ten days. And they no longer had any forces left to stop the Soviet offensive. Japan had only to admit that they had suffered a complete defeat and the hour had come surrender.

[sergey1972]

I don’t agree with the author of the article that any power, creating an atomic bomb, would immediately use it, like the United States. As can be seen from the history of our war, sometimes our leadership sacrificed people for the sake of preserving exactly the same cities, moreover, foreign cities, and not ours, Soviet.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: sergey1972

it would be used immediately, just like the United States. As can be seen from the history of our war, sometimes our leadership sacrificed people for the sake of preserving exactly the same cities, and what about the cities of foreign

Berlin bombing by Soviet aircraft

In total, from August 7 to September 5, 1941, Soviet pilots performed nine raids on Berlin, making a total of 86 sorties. 33 aircraft bombed Berlin, dropping 21 tons of bombs on it and causing 32 fires in the city. 37 aircraft were unable to reach the capital of Germany and attacked other cities. A total of 311 HE and incendiary bombs with a total weight of 36 tons were consumed.

The Germans were lucky that the Air Force of the Red Army did not have Super Fortresses and atomic bombs. If the Soviets had nuclear weapons, the Headquarters would use them without thinking

Soviet-Finnish War, 1939-1940
From the very first hours of the start of the Finnish campaign, Soviet troops launched the bombing of Helsinki. Eight raids were carried out, about 350 bombs were dropped, resulting in the death of 97 and injuring 260 people, 55 buildings were destroyed

And again the Great Patriotic War
On February 6, 1944, the Red Army Air Force ADD carried out a massive bombardment of Helsinki, which the Finns dubbed "bombing for peace." As a result, 103 residents were killed, five Soviet bombers were shot down. On February 16, the second “bombing for peace” is held: 25 people were killed, 4 bombers were shot down. During the third bombing on February 26, 18 people were killed and as many bombers were shot down.

Also during the bombing of Helsinki, some works of art were destroyed. So, the picture of Eero Järnefelt, depicting the activities of the secret society "Aurora", which existed at the end of the XVIII century, died during the bombing of the University of Helsinki in 1944.

These bombings were aimed at breaking the Finnish military spirit and speeding up peace talks. Soviet aircraft dropped more than 16 bombs. However, due to the fact that the Finns used distracting lights on the islands adjacent to the city, only 000 bombs fell on the territory of Helsinki. And since most of the population was evacuated, the number of victims was relatively small.

The Finns were very lucky that the USSR Air Force, in fact, did not have strategic aviation and experience of massive bombing, besides, in 1944, no one planned to heavily bomb Helsinki - it was clear that Finland was on fire and only needed to "demonstrate" its strength to the Finns speeding up the process of surrender

And here is Berlin-41, yes, there the use of nuclear weapons of CT power would be just right, but then we did not have a vigorous bomb even in the project

[South]

Well, the United States defeated Japan, the USSR was involved in this a little more than Honduras

[anip]

Quote: Southern

Well, the United States defeated Japan, the USSR was involved in this a little more than Honduras

Give an example of the participation of Honduras in the war with Japan and the forces of Honduras allocated for this, which should be slightly less than the forces of the USSR.

[chenia]

I do not want to humiliate the Japanese, but they did not know how to fight. Our army of 1939 was smashed by them in the same way that mattress-makers did not succeed even at 45 (and they did not notice a special samurai spirit). Well, the spacecraft of the 1945 model, with no options, one-goal game.

And the fact that they held on like this was an opera similar to the Romelevsky genius (in that case, from 2/3 to half, there were Italians, and the Germans considered him a mediocre boss). It’s just that our Western allies were also worthless warriors.

[Bakht]

The article is not bad. But there are a couple of points that require a good researcher.

First: Of course, the Japanese attack on the United States. There is so much dark and incomprehensible that it’s better not to try to figure it out. The official reason for the Japanese attack is the Anglo-Dutch-American oil embargo. This embargo was imposed in response to the occupation of Indochina. But the occupation was in 1940. And the US embargo was introduced only in the summer of 1941. Why? I have a version that the USSR had the best ally in the world in World War II. This is the USA. In the summer of 1941, the Americans averted the threat of a blow from the Soviet Far East. And in September, Finnish troops stopped near Leningrad.

The second point is not even worth discussing. Japan had in the person of Isoroku Yamamoto such a short-sighted and disgusting strategist that it lost the war in the Pacific. The blame lies entirely with Yamamoto. The fact that he died saved him from the judgment of his descendants and created the halo of a martyr. There is a wonderful book by Hara Tameuchi "The Odyssey of a Samurai". This is the memoir of the best destroyer commander in the Japanese fleet. Very interesting reading and interesting attitude of the ship commanders towards Yamamomto.

“In the history of World War II, there have been few admirals who have earned such a high reputation as Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto. While paying tribute to Yamamoto's great abilities, I still believe that his reputation as commander in chief of the United Fleet has been largely exaggerated.
Despite the catastrophic defeat of Japan in the Pacific War, people are still inclined to consider Yamamoto as one of the greatest national heroes.
In post-war memoirs, very many generals and admirals who held senior command posts during the war years and were considered almost the idols of the nation were subjected to harsh criticism. But Admiral Yamamoto was not criticized by anyone. My criticism of the admiral is essentially the first one expressed by a military man who went through the whole war. And this criticism is not based at all on any personal antipathies to the late admiral. On the contrary, I am confident that Admiral Yamamoto was an outstanding leader, fully deserving the almost religious respect with which his subordinates treated him. But he did not have sufficient qualifications to command so many ships and so many people that were in the Joint Japanese Fleet at the beginning of the war. It can be considered a tragedy that it was Yamamoto who was elected as commander-in-chief of the United Fleet. "

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Bakht

Japan had in the person of Isoroku Yamamoto such a short-sighted and disgusting strategist that he lost the war in the Pacific

Why then did the Yankees specifically fly to kill him?

In general, in history there are many cases when killers would kill a commander (not for personal reasons, not for wealth, not for politics, but because he was a commander)?

Oh Yamamoto, you're fundamentally wrong

Quote: Bakht

I have a version that the USSR had the best ally in the world in World War II. This is the USA. In the summer of 1941, the Americans averted the threat of a blow from the Soviet Far East. And in September, Finnish troops stopped near Leningrad.

Good version. Some may not like it, but it does not contradict the facts.

The fact that Japan was planning a strike on the USSR in the summer of 1941 is a proven fact; if details are interesting, I’ll look. Oil embargo ruins all plans

On the other hand, everything could have been a lucky coincidence - the Yankees were just drawing the war in Japan, pursuing purely their interests

[Bakht]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Why did they fly to kill - maybe they also considered him a genius. But the facts showed that the planning of operations was below the waterline. The entire war sent the fleet to slaughter in small groups. And at this time the "Khasirsky fleet" was idle. Sent an aircraft carrier group to Pearl Harbor with virtually no cover. At Midway, he did not dare to send a line fleet to capture the island. 6 or 8 battleships against two battered aircraft carriers.
He admitted the meat grinder of the Japanese fleet on Guadalcanal. Where is his vaunted planning?

And the operation against Pearl Harbor bordered on an adventure. No wonder the General Naval Staff told him "Your whole plan is an adventure." Lucky once does not mean you will be lucky all the time.

Well, about the States. I always try to rely on facts. And the dating of events. States clearly oppressed Japan. Japan, of course, was preparing to attack the USSR. But in July of the 41st, the Americans imposed an embargo. How to start a war without fuel? In Siberia and Sakhalin, then there was nothing. Oil was in the south. And Japan was forced to turn south. Stalin did not believe intelligence reports. He believed the facts. After the oil embargo, he began to actively withdraw troops from the Far East near Moscow.

So the States are not only a land lease. This is an effective help at the most critical moment. The states directly warned Finland of continuing the offensive on Leningrad, promising a post-war peace and a guarantee of security. The Finns still tried to attack Petrozavodsk. But having received a rebuff, they actually stopped fighting. In September 1941, both Halder and Tippelskirch flew to Finland. All persuaded the Finns to put pressure on Leningrad from the north. Mannerheim did not agree. And in 1944, Stalin did not try to capture Finland. He was such a strange politician - he always kept his word.

[explorer]

Quote: Bakht

I have a version that the USSR had the best ally in the world in World War II. This is the USA. In the summer of 1941, the Americans averted the threat of a blow from the Soviet Far East. And in September, Finnish troops stopped near Leningrad.

- Here the Republic of Tuva and Mongolia are allies, and the USA is a backstage player.

[Vorkot cat]

The reason for Japan's surrender is the complete defeat of the Quantum group by the Soviet Army, and not some sort of nuclear bombing of the Yankees.

[NOMAD]

Do not just treat the Japanese and its armed forces! HER soldiers are also a model of courage! At that time, Japan was a leading country in its weapons of the Navy! What are their aircraft carriers worth !! And America, according to documents at the end of 40, did not even have normal weapons and, in fact, a normal army! This war with Japan and the entry of the United States into World War II gave an impetus to the development of the army and the military-industrial complex !! , in fact, the Japanese themselves claimed that the main reason for surrender was not the atomic bombing of two cities, but on the contrary it made the Japanese angry and they even planned to land in the USA and fight to the last soldier! All the resources they would have thrown to the USA! And they would have done it! Given the morale, diligence and obedience of the Japanese! BUT the entry into the war of the Soviet army, the defeat of the Kwantung group only accelerated this process of surrender, because it was difficult and pointless to fight with the large, experienced and well-armed army of the Soviets!

[nnz226]

Well, if the Americans were so tough to "roll" Japan themselves, they would not flatten themselves to attract the USSR to the war with Japan, but they were already trying hard, "luring" our people, despite the fact that they always liked to attribute victories to themselves (look at their opinion about the victory over Hitler, and here it is !!!). This means that the contribution of the USSR to the victory was significant. The Americans were planning a victory, but without the USSR already in 1946-47, and the losses from the landing on the main islands were estimated from 1,5 to 3 million GI. And then a week, as ours began to thresh the samurai - and full agreement with all the conditions of Potsdam. That is why Stalin gave South Korea to the Yankees and did not take Hokkaido into the occupation (and there were agreements) - a question!

[jury08]

As I read in one clever article, surrender of Japan is a far-sighted step-Japan escaped the fate of Korea — that is, the division of the country — the threat of communism was worse than the shame of surrendering the US country!

[Drakk]

the author is a zhzhot, then the great Russian novice was planned by the Kremlin, which, however, has long been proved and is no secret. Germany was forced to attack the USSR and start a war on two fronts. And the first three years of losses and losses were planned.

[svp67]

Quote: Drakk

so it was planned.

Reading such comments sometimes you begin to regret that the appearance of the people who wrote them when it was "planned" by their parents ...

[Alex 241]

Earrings, I was simply numb! It’s a pity that you can’t swear! Drakk, do you prefer to smoke books rather than read them?

[Russ69]

Quote: Drakk

Germany was forced to attack the USSR and start a war on two fronts. And the first three years of losses and losses were planned.

Do not tell me what kind of weed you smoke ....

[svp67]

Quote: Alex 241

Tie off this comes the brain liquefaction.

Quote: Russ69

Do not tell me what kind of weed you smoke

The guys are a "clinic" and the infection occurs through their "zombie boxes" Having destroyed the bright memory of our common history, we managed to divide our peoples much better than by drawing a border on the map and on the ground ...

[Alex 241]

Earrings, just trolls, something in recent times has bred them!

[svp67]

Quote: Alex 241

Earrings, just trolls, something in recent times has bred them!

When a "troll" is a cancer, as they say, what can you take from him, but when he is smart, then interesting conclusions and questions arise, one of which, and who is the sponsor?

[Alex 241]

Earrings someone trodden a footpath!

[svp67]

Quote: Alex 241

Earrings someone trodden a footpath!

Worse, they "trample" her through human destinies, and so, let them chat, well, we must have pluralism

[Alex 241]

Well, here you need a well-sharpened ax! Yes, and we will not allow glumilovo!

[i.xxx-1971]

In the words of Kozma Prutkov: you cannot embrace the immensity and you cannot shove the inedible. No comments. Otto Carius believed that one Russian is worth five Americans. I believe today the situation has not changed.

[kdn79]

It took our paratroopers five days to capture the Shumshi island.

No. August 18, the whole day, August 19, several clashes, August 20 skirmish in the Second Kuril Strait - 3 days !!!

[kdn79]

Quote: Egen

to Sakhalin (for oil)

??? Japan quite easily produced Sakhalin oil until the spring of 1944! Moreover, Soviet oil produced there (literally next to Japanese wells) before the construction of the first oil pipeline in 1943 was mainly sold to Japan.

[kdn79]

Quote: old man54

The oil on Saakhlin has already been found a lot after the 2nd MV, somewhere closer to the 80th year!

What the hell ??? Where did you get such information? First attempts at industrial oil production in the north of the island were undertaken at the end of the 19th century. In some places, it itself flows to the surface ("asphalt lake", for example), so it was known about its existence for a long time.

[kdn79]

Quote: Egen

Once I read in English (maybe it’s somewhere in Russian, I didn’t look for it) about the "fortifications" of the Japanese on the islands.

It is logical that you could not read anything "in English" about the fortification of Shumshu Island. The Japanese fortified the Kuril Islands no less strongly than Iwo Jima and others.

[kdn79]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

underground shelters of troops and military property up to 50 meters deep

Andrei, I respect you very much, in particular for a detailed analysis of the Chemulpo battle, but I have to slightly correct it: not the depths50 meters, and thickness of natural protective soil... That is, the Japanese did not dig "inside the Shumshu", but set up strong points in the hills with rock. How do you imagine underground structures 50 meters deep (some especially "talented" authors have 75 meters)?
There were a few more paratroopers - 8824 soldiers.
There are a total of 56 ships - of different types, since there were not enough military vessels (only 16 landing ships).
This is the LAST verified, official data. I am responsible for the reliability of the information (I work at the Pobeda Iron and Steel Works in Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk, for our scientific department the Soviet-Japanese war is topic number 1, everything is studied and rechecked as carefully as possible.) But, of course, over time, it is possible small corrections in these data (work with archival documents is not finished).

[kdn79]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Coming to the island, the ships discovered artillery fire, without scaring anyone, but kindly warning the Japanese about the place and the beginning of the landing.

Ehhh ... not so clear! It's a long time to explain, I'm really looking forward to seeing you on a tour !!! Learn a lot of new, reliable information!