Death Kriegsmarine: American Noose

... We did our best, but the slippery black death was ahead of us.

We introduced a convoy system, but this only spurred their excitement - they gathered in flocks and pursued us even more. In the afternoon they disappeared. But as soon as twilight was gathering, tenacious paws snapped at the throat and carried them to the seabed.

Angry fishes came to know about our secrets and changed tactics - now, having discovered a convoy, they surfaced and followed a parallel course with him, focusing on the smoke of ships. Enigma chattering furiously, invisible electric lightning pierced the airwaves — after an hour other creatures shuffled to the area, gradually surrounding us and leaving our ships to intercept. And then they rushed at us, and the terrible began ...

We created a centimeter range radar for total control of the ocean surface. Their response was the "Maltese cross" - a sensitive anti-radar, cut off the radiation of our radar long before the operators began to see the flare from a large surface object. When the patrol "Sunderland" went into the given square, the black death managed to sink and disappear without a trace in the thickness of the sea water.

We put 76 000 sea mines on the approaches to their bases in the North Sea and the English Channel, mined the Kiel Canal, the Skagerrak and Kattegat straits. In dangerous raids, 500 production planes were lost, but all in vain - during the entire war only thirty-two of them became victims of our mines, the remaining 800 skillfully bypassed the barricades and went into the ocean to engage in robbery.

We regularly bombed their bases and shipyards where predatory fish were born, dropping a total of 100 000 tons of bombs. All in vain - their losses were minimal. Total 59 steel demons. The others, after waiting the raid, immediately climbed out of their reinforced concrete shelters and spread across the Atlantic.

We broke into the Enigma and began to read their conversations. It did some good, but it increased the feeling of fear — they were everywhere, but we could not do anything about it.

We increased the number of escort forces, built 350 corvettes of the “Hunt” and “Flower” types in two years, which became our “T-34” in the vast Atlantic. We armed the transport and fishing vessels, attracted cruisers and destroyers of the Royal Navy to combat the underwater threat. The naval command requisitioned from 1240 shipowners yachts, trawlers and whaling ships, turning them into hunters for the black death - with a set of sonar equipment and a stock of depth charges on board.

Catalina!

We created a sonar - ASDIK, capable of shining through the depths of the sea and calculating the prowling creatures. Alas, with clenched teeth, they, as before, overtook the caravans of ships and stubbornly choked Britain, leaving us without the essentials. Blood gushing from both sides, but their rage was stronger than high technology.

Underwater killers boldly rushed forward without fear of our instruments - they knew that a primitive ASDIK has a too small capture angle, and its effective range in the echolocation mode does not exceed one mile and decreases rapidly with deteriorating weather and an increase in the speed of an anti-submarine ship. On 16 nodes, the sonar became completely deaf.
As soon as the persecution began, we immediately lost contact with them.

We developed new noise-finders and ultrasonic observation devices, installed coastal acoustic stations at the mouths of the rivers, every port and naval base ... all in vain!

Slippery black monsters, too, have continuously improved. They reduced the level of intrinsic noise by applying damping mechanisms and means to interfere with the operation of our sonar equipment. They learned to quickly change the depth of the dive, making our anti-submarine weapon and depth charges are ineffective.

They had new dangerous toys - FAT and LUT maneuvering devices for torpedo weapons, the simplest mechanisms that allowed attacking convoys from any position. And then there were acoustic self-guided torpedoes Т4 "Falke" and Т5 "Tsakunönig". Any of our ships who risked engaging in an open battle with a steel fish, could at any moment be hit.

We equipped our ships with towed noise traps, but they immediately created a noise-proof guidance system for acoustic torpedoes.

We felt, literally felt with our salted skin, that a new threat was approaching - new, even more menacing underwater monsters were conceived in the German shipyards ...

"Electrobots". Type XXI and XXIII. Boats designed to be permanently submerged. Optimized contours and an increased number of batteries allowed them to accelerate under water to 15 nodes - their pursuit by our anti-submarine ships was almost impossible, at such a speed, the ASDIK did not work. Equipped with snorkels, they could not appear on the surface for weeks; and the sophisticated hydroacoustics complex provided them with exceptional opportunities to control the marine environment.

Then we did not know all this. There was only an oppressive feeling of danger and impotence.
Britain was preparing for the worst ...

Deutschland Stolz

... yes, 1942 was a great year. The glorious submariners managed to triple the achievements of all the previous years of the war, sinking 1149 ships and ships of the enemy with a total tonnage of 6,2 million gross registered tons for the year. Fantastish!

The list of victories includes a pair of noble trophies - the Eagle aircraft carrier (11.08.1942 sunk by U-73 submarine) and the cruiser Edinburgh with a cargo of gold on board (shot down by 2.05.1942 in the Barents Sea by U-473 submarine). In addition, the “sea wolves” bit the legendary PQ-17 convoy, carried out the “Wunderland” operation in the Kara Sea, sank the 2 cruisers and 13 enemy destroyers. Sergut

Strait of Kirk Sound, Scapa Flow, Scotland. Here, on a dark night from 13 to 14 in October 1939, climbed, barely scratching the bottom of the hull, the U-47 submarine, commanded by Gunter Prien. How did he do it? Das ist fiction. However, for the battleship "Royal Oak" and 833, the man of his crew this night was the last. Having carried out a pogrom in the harbor of the most protected British base, U-47, under the roar of anti-aircraft guns, I got out the same way and returned home safely.
In order to avoid a repetition of the next Pearl Harbor with a German accent, the British urgently partitioned the strait with a stone dam.

Bright events hide the gray everyday life of war. Our submariners have clear guidelines - if possible, do not touch warships, focusing on merchant ships fleet. It’s not profitable for a submarine to chase a high-speed destroyer - it’s too mobile and maneuverable, the destroyer is able to dodge the fired torpedoes and launch a counterattack.

The laws of the naval war are far from common misconceptions about the "smoke of sea battles." People do not live in the open ocean. The blue-green water surface cannot be captured or destroyed. The ocean is used only as a transport artery through which Britain receives critical goods, raw materials and equipment.

And if so - then why should the boat take such a long time to carefully aim, engage in a useless and dangerous duel with escort forces of the convoy? It’s much more efficient and useful to shoot low-speed tankers and transports with airplanes, tanks, machines, mechanisms, loads of ore and rubber, uniforms and food ...

Let then the high-speed destroyer rushes in a circle, and his commander tears his hair out - the fragments of transports sink into the water, the task is failed. Upon arrival at the base, the destroyer crew will have nothing to eat, and the destroyer, left without fuel, will independently get immobilized. Exhausted Britain sooner or later will sign a surrender.

Here it is, the surest way to victory! And we continued to increase strikes in the chosen direction ...

American sentence Kriegsmarine

... We will build ships faster than the enemy can sink them. We will DAILY launch two combat ships of the main classes (aircraft carrier, battleship, cruiser, destroyer, or submarine) and put into operation three vehicles each.

The production of anti-submarine equipment should be immediately launched - thousands of hunters and corvettes, escort aircraft carriers on the basis of transport ships and the base marine aviation - Catalina seaplanes, PB4Y-1 and PB4Y-2 Privetir long-range reconnaissance aircraft (modification of Flying Fortresses).

We will deploy dozens of airfields and hydroacoustic stations in the northern part of the Atlantic - on the coast of Greenland, Iceland and the Faroe Islands.

We will compensate ANY loss of the merchant fleet - the number of built Liberty transports will exceed the value of 2700 units by the end of the war. No matter how atrocious the German submariners are, our allies (first of all - Britain) are guaranteed to receive their standard of goods, equipment and raw materials for the continuation of the war.

We will "pump up" the fleet of Her Majesty with anti-submarine technology, handing over several dozen escort aircraft carriers, hundreds of destroyers and thousands of patrol ships to British sailors. We will re-arm British naval aviation with the Catalins and the Air Force.

Military-industrial anecdote: "The Yankees go to war." Actually, this explains why the Germans started having a hard time with 1943.

Relying on American industrial power, Britain will rise and continue to develop its own aviation and fleet. Acting together, we will fill up the ocean with anti-submarine technology. And while the American sonars are still inferior to the British models, the quantity will soon turn into quality. The "wolf flocks" of grand-admiral Dönitz choke in the cold water, without the ability to float on the surface - the air will be buzzed by the allied aviation, and the sea surface will be decorated with patterns of anti-submarine ship groups.

So it happened. The turning point in the Battle of the Atlantic occurred in the spring of 1943 - the “black May” became a formidable warning for German sailors - within a month the Kriegsmarine lost 43 submarines. Then it was only worse. The results of the combat work of the boats for 1943 year were a complete disappointment for the German leadership - only 2,5 million tons of cargo sunk.

U-134 comes to an end

In 1944, the situation took a catastrophic turn: losses, compared with 1940, increased by a factor of 11! Boats died en masse, sometimes not even managing to get close to convoys. Submarine bases on the coast of France were lost. Kriegsmarine was left without target designation - the use of Condor and Grif long-range sea reconnaissance aircraft became impossible due to the Allies absolute superiority in the air. Interruptions in the supply of fuel and spare parts, hacked naval ciphers, continuous raids by strategic bombers ... the result was logical - in 1944, the tonnage of ships sunk by U-bots was “only” 765 000 br. reg. tons.

By this time, the American industrial monster was completely out of control and continued to thresh the equipment in completely paranormal quantities. The average rate of construction of the Liberty transports was just 24 of the day (the record holder was Robert E. Piri, from the moment it was laid down and before the 135-meter vessel got under load, the 4 of the day and 15 hours passed).

Liberty is not the only commercial vessel built during that period. In parallel, the Yankees launched 534 transport type "Victory", about 500 tankers type "T2", etc. etc. If necessary, the Americans prepared to cast the hulls of ships entirely from reinforced concrete (concrete ship) - cheap and cheerful. And most importantly - extremely massive.

Fritz were doomed - they simply would not have enough torpedoes for so many enemies.

130 escort aircraft carriers, 850 destroyers, 2710 transports "Liberty" ... for the sake of laughter, the Yankees carried out "ideological sabotage" in Germany, scattering leaflets from the aircraft with statistical data on their own industry. American humor was incomprehensible to the inhabitants of the Old World - Nazi propaganda confidently declared these figures "nonsense."

Seven are not afraid of one

The losses of the German submariners during the war years amounted to 768 sunk and destroyed boats. More than 20 000 people were locked in steel coffins at the bottom of the Atlantic, Arctic and Indian oceans.

The losses of the allies look no less frightening - more than 2700 of sunken ships with a total tonnage of 14,5 MILLION TONS

In addition, the submariners Kriegsmarine warships destroyed 123, among whom were the British battleship 2, 3 4 shock and escort carriers, cruisers and 8 33 destroyer (the remaining loss - anti-submarine corvettes, frigates, sloops, submarines and naval tankers).

The battle for the Atlantic is clearly divided into two periods:

The first period (September 1939 - the end of 1942 of the year) is Germany’s sure victory. The magnificent British fleet was powerless before the submarine power of Kriegsmarine, none of the adopted measures of technical and organizational nature could save the British from defeat, the Germans had their own answer to every British "trick".

The British "sea wolves" were lucky that they had an ally in the face of the United States (could it have been otherwise? After all, the Anglo-Saxon brothers). It is also worth considering that the main headache of the Reich was still connected with the Eastern Front - the fleet of Her Majesty and the powerful US Navy received a considerable time bonus for the development of their own anti-submarine weapons. Obviously, in a "fair fight", one on one, German boats could completely destroy the British fleet and strangle Britain at the beginning of the 1940s.

The spring of 1943 of the year became a break for the sailors of Christmarine - henceforth the boats lost the initiative, in the long term the fascist fleet expected inevitable defeat.

But who was the true fighter of the Battle of the Atlantic? The answer will seem somewhat strange to you: for example, this young black girl, a shipyard worker in Richmond, Virginia.

The battle for the Atlantic was another confirmation of the well-known wisdom of the "seven are not afraid of one." There were no super-ships, brilliant tactics and wonder weapons - the same flimsy corvettes and patrol seaplanes, with the same radars and Asdik, who regularly lost to submarines in 1939-1943, suddenly gained strength, clutched the German fleet and tore him to shreds. The paradox has a simple explanation: anti-submarine ships and airplanes have become more 10 times.

Only the absolute quantitative superiority of the allies in ships, aircraft and resources allowed them to hold out under the blows of German submarines. The American industry won the war on the sea - the Yankees simply crushed Kriegsmarine with their enormous amount of equipment, like a steamroller rolling a helpless frog on the asphalt. Brute strength and nothing more.

Finale

15 January 1945, the British escort aircraft carrier HMS Thane was torpedoed at the mouth of the Clyde River - the damage was so heavy that the ship was sent for scrapping.
7 May 1945, the German submariners achieved their last victory - the Electrobot U-2353 slammed two ships in one gulp - the Norwegian Sneland I and the British Avondale Park right in the Firth of Clyde.

Terrible echoes of 1939-1942's events ...

Surprisingly, even in the conditions of absolute domination of the allies at sea and in the air, hacked ciphers, endless bombings, interruptions in supply and other unfavorable circumstances, German submarines operated right under the enemy’s nose and continued to inflict sensitive blows on him - direct confirmation of fantastic secrecy and the highest combat stability of the submarine fleet.

U-218 leaves Kiel

Captured U-175 crew aboard USCGC Spencer

http://www.libma.ru/
http://tsushima.su/
http://www.kriegsmarine.ru/
http://www.u-boote.ru/

Statistical data are taken from the monograph “Actions of German submarines during the Second World War on sea communications”, Vershinin, D. A., Eremeev L. M., Shergin A. P., Voenizdat, 1956

Comments

[Hort]

it is a pity that the Yankees still did not feel the nuances of war on their territory. Or at least they didn't get hit on their shipyards and factories. You see, maybe their attitude to "democratization" would be different.

This is purely hypothetical: how many months would the Wehrmacht take to win if he received a bridgehead on the US coast?

[Uzoliv]

Quote: hort

This is purely hypothetical: how many months would the Wehrmacht take to win if he received a bridgehead on the US coast?

And there is no chance of success. The Germans would not be able to supply their grouping across the ocean, the combined British-American fleet is stronger, it would simply block the supply routes. And in the United States, initial success was possible, but only for a short time. The Germans could not control the vast territory, which means they could not take control of all industrial areas, and taking into account how many weapons the local population had in their hands, the scope of the partisan movement would be great. The Germans would have failed.

[common man]

Quote: Uzoliv

Well, taking into account how many weapons the local population had on hand, the scope of the partisan movement would be great.

But the question is, would they have this very partisan movement? Or, like France, it’s good without the Germans, and it’s not bad with the Germans.

[Uzoliv]

And to answer your question you need to read books on the history of the US Civil War. Especially pay attention to the resistance of the southerners. And in France there was de Gaulle and resistance. The scale was less than ours, well, so they have no such open spaces - there is nowhere to get lost. And the Americans have a completely different character, it’s not the French. When a person has a trunk in his pocket, and for a very long time (this is important), it is difficult to make him submit: the psychology is different.

[Djozz]

There is scope for the partisan movement in Yugoslavia and Albania, but not in France. And about the partisan movement in America, this grandmother said in two! High prosperity, when there is something to lose in comfort, will completely ward off the desire for partisanism.

[cdrt]

High prosperity, when there is something to lose in comfort, will completely ward off the desire for partisanism.

Would you judge to go to the states, would you live there or something

Rednecks are generally fighters
weapons unless they give children.
Everyone is fully armed, accustomed to the fact that solving problems with weapons is good

The Yankees - these of course are more Europeans, but the British are basically - which in battle, usually all enemies described as very persistent
Southerners - just a warlike people (civilized version of rednecks ).
Etc.
In addition - most Americans are people with incomes of 20-30 thousand dollars per year. Those. not rich.
Yes, in comparison with us all of them have an average comfortable life, but ... not pampered at all

[Djozz]

It's one thing to run around the city with weapons, it's another to fight in a war or in a partisan detachment against a prepared enemy, and the "fortitude" of amers in battle was well shown by World War II and Vietnam, if you don't watch Hollywood films.

[cdrt]

and the "resilience" of amers in battle was well shown by World War II and Vietnam, if you do not watch Hollywood films.

Yes, Bastogne, torpedo attack at Midway Island as examples

[Joker]

Oh miracle, will I ever see that the people soberly assess the United States. Nice to read comments. You can not underestimate the enemy.

[Volkhov]

Quote: Joker

senses US

It’s cool - when they understand that it’s not an adversary in the state sense (the Russian Federation was their vassal) - they are simply enemies of the people, destroyers of the empire.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: cdrt

Yes, Bastogne, torpedo attack at Midway Island as examples

What about the surrender of the impregnable Correhidor?

At this point, the American commander announced on the radio that the fortress was surrendering. This is the turn! Homma (here it is eastern cunning) did not agree! He also demanded the surrender of all US-Filipino troops on the archipelago, but on the second largest island - Mindanao, the Japanese have not even landed. The Americans agreed to this. On May 6, 1942, the campaign in the Philippines ended.

About 15, thousands of US-Filipino troops surrendered to an airborne squad of a thousand Japanese

[tomket]

Well, these are the pure boilers of the 41 of the year when the demoralized troops panic at the word landing.

[Containers]

Tell me how do I go to live in the United States 30-40 years?
What was then and what is now are two big differences.

[common man]

Resistance of southerners in a civil war is the defense of their social system. In this case, slaveholding. The same example, the fierce civil war in Russia. And de Gaulle's resistance was formed as far as I remember in French Africa, away from the Germans. If only, in our case, the Americans do not start resistance in Alaska, and the Chukchi and Apaches will be the initiators.

[alex popov]

Quote: man in the street

Resistance of southerners in a civil war is the defense of their social system. In this case, slaveholding.

The fact that the southerners defended slavery is a delusion, or rather a myth imposed by the Yankees. The entire American history is just stuffed with such myths, and this one is one of the most persistent. refutations to this myth are full of on the net, if not laziness, look, entertaining and fascinating reading. In a nutshell, it was a stupid plunder by the poorer states of the richer ones, under the slogan "freedom to slaves." Since then, neither the slogans nor the methods have changed.

[Denis]

Quote: man in the street

Resistance of southerners in a civil war is the defense of their social system.

This is just a struggle for power, and you can come up with a slogan. Moreover, it makes everyone good
Then the northerners won and the blacks immediately began to count for people?
The same bullshit as today's defenses of democracy
The picture is not of the slave-owning south, Chicago, which is far north and was made later than the 2nd World War. Where are the Negroes?

[Denis]

Quote: Denis

Where are the blacks?

But infa and fresher:

- You ? This is Harlem. You understand: Harlem! How did you get there?
This jerk annoyed me:
“And you won’t get there?”
- Never! Remember: the black passenger should not be in your cab, otherwise you will end badly ...

(C) "Yellow Kings"
http://read24.ru/fb2/vladimir-lobas-jeltyie-koroli-zapiski-nyu-yorkskogo-taksist
a / # back_n_40

[cdrt]

And in France there was de Gaulle and resistance

Who is arguing
In 1942, in the ranks of the Wehrmacht, the SS fought more French than in the Resistance and Free France

So ... maybe to France under the Germans it is fair that the country split into two camps: with the Germans or against them.

Probably played a role and "Catapult" - after all, French sailors died at the hands of the British.

[mealnik2005]

Are you saying that in order to achieve your own "freedom" you can sacrifice the lives of others? Such a psychology?

[cdrt]

But the question is, would they have this very partisan movement? Or, like France, it’s good without the Germans, and it’s not bad with the Germans.

How the armed people of the United States are fighting - a good example is the civil war in the United States. They fought to death, not really reckoning with losses, cruelly.
In some ways, it is similar to our civil war. Well, or ... an example of valor is the attack of torpedo bombers at Father Midway. Well, or paratroopers in Baston in 1944 - they fought no worse than ours.

So ... if in the sphere vacuum imagine conquest across the ocean - the partisans would
Still, the core of nat. spirit created by religious fanatics.

[Djozz]

As for the Baston "sitting" in 1944, you probably judge by Spielberg's TV series "Brothers in Arms"! Comparison of our paratroopers in the Second World War with amers is at least incorrect, the scale and intensity of the fighting is not the same.

[cdrt]

As for the Baston "sitting" in 1944, you probably judge by Spielberg's TV series "Brothers in Arms"! Comparison of our paratroopers in the Second World War with amers is at least incorrect, the scale and intensity of the fighting is not the same.

Power ratio:
101 Airborne Division (11 thousand light infantry) + BG "V" 10 BTC + 1 artillery battalion against 4 TD and 11 TD of the Wehrmacht.

They performed quite well. Why is it worse than ours near Balaton I do not even know.

Do you have any sources that you refute? Share it

Or themselves from the Brothers in Arms learned?

[Mikhail3]

There are photos on the network - rural America until the 50 of the last century. Take a look. You will not find differences, well, except that cars flicker ... Americans didn’t get far right away. In those years, there was still a lot of people to fight, not like us, but exactly to burst a line from the bushes. Given mutual resources ...

[cdrt]

There are photos on the network - rural America until the 50s of the last century

Hmm ... yes, and rural America has changed little. Southerners or Rednecks for a holiday - indistinguishable from August 2 healthy, drunk, aggressive You just need to drive away from the big city, where there is 1 police station for 4-5 towns
with morale everything is OK

[Vadivak]

Quote: Uzoliv

And there is no chance of success. The Germans would not be able to supply their grouping across the ocean

There was a plan to attack the United States through Latin America with allies who did not like the United States and who actually loves them there? the transport workers of the Germans were the Messerschmitt Me.323 Gigant. The range is really no only 1 100 km. But they would have done it, I have no doubt. Submarines blockade the coast and "Stuka" from Graf Zeppelin will have time to sink a couple of battleships before they are torn apart

Actually, there were several options for enslaving America. According to one version, the Nazis were going to crush the British fleet in 1942, and warships would sail from Great Britain towards America.

The second option suggested that Hitler’s troops first invade and gain a foothold in Norfolk, Virginia (in the eastern United States) and wait for the Japanese reinforcements. And then the combined German-Japanese fleet was supposed to capture the United States, moving from the Canary and Azores.

The third plan was designed to get to America through Iceland, Greenland and Canada.

The fourth option considered the possibility of an attack from Latin America. In this case, the Japanese had to start bombing the Panama Canal, and then they would land troops on land and move to the states via Ecuador.

The last fifth option as a springboard for a military base was chosen by the Hawaiian Islands, where after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, Japanese and German troops were to be stationed.

[Egen]

Quote: Vadivak

The last fifth option as a springboard for a military base was chosen by the Hawaiian Islands, where after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, Japanese and German troops were to be stationed

Dear Vadim , can I read a link somewhere about this? This is all nonsense, of course, starting with the fact that the Germans had 1-2 "giants" and they weren't enough and they were standing most of the time, and ending with the Germans ending up in the Pacific Ocean :) But it would still be interesting to read.

[lelikas]

Quote: Egen

This is all nonsense, of course, since the Germans had 1-2 "giants" and they weren't enough, and most of the time they stood,

Well, if 200 cars is 1-2 and miscalculated - then now we don’t have WTA;)
I’ll keep silent about several thousand flights :)

And their boats XX ave. And above - a fairy tale is simple.

[Denis]

Quote: lelikas

Well, if 200 cars is 1-2 and miscalculated

Yes, but:

The main part was taken in the hostilities on the Mediterranean and North African theater of operations - from the airfields of Naples, Lecce, Pomigliano, Castell Vetrano, Pistoia "Giants" delivered fuel, spare parts, food, ammunition, light armored vehicles and various artillery systems (including 150 mm) to Tunisia howitzers), supplied the African Corps of Rommel. As a rule, airplanes flew low, singly or in small groups.
In January 1943, Me.323 was involved in the operation to supply the Paulus Army surrounded in Stalingrad 6. They flew from the Zverovo airfield.
In July 1943, Me.323 was brought in to support the troops defending Sicily from the landed allies (a pair of Giants brought artillery of the 1st Parachute Airborne Division to the Catania airfield).
After the fall of Mussolini’s regime and Hitler’s decision to occupy Italy, they were involved in ensuring this operation - on July 26–28, 6 Giants, along with other transport planes, transferred the 2nd airborne division from the French base of Istres to the Italian Practice di Mare, which 25 km from Rome. A month and a half later, this division captured Rome.
In total, in less than 5 months, the "Giants" made more than 1200 flights to Tunisia, delivering about 15 tons of cargo

There weren’t enough of them. Yes, and without fighter escort, he’s just a mess

[Egen]

Quote: Denis

The main part was taken in the hostilities in the Mediterranean and North African theater of operations

Add to Denis: This is a link from airaces. It would be useful to quote a few excerpts from there:

TTX: max. weight 43t, g / under12t, cruising speed 210 max 250km / h.

The prototype Me 323V1, equipped with four engines, first flew in the 20 on January 1942. In this configuration, the aircraft could not take off at full load on its own — towing aircraft were required to launch.
From 1942 to April 1944, German factories manufactured 198 Me 323
...
In literature, the largest German aircraft of World War II, the Giant, remains underestimated. They write a little about him, and most authors tend to focus on the shortcomings of the machine and high combat losses. Meanwhile, the Messerschmitt Me-323 can be safely considered the world's first specialized military transport aircraft. It was used to implement such advanced solutions for its time as a wide fuselage, a large front load carrier, a convertible cargo compartment, and a multi-wheeled chassis. All this is widely used today.

- I agree, the plane is of some interest as a transporter, but, given the above,:
1) I don’t think that there were a lot of them in 41 :) and, taking into account the losses, I also don’t think that there were many in the ranks at the same time.
2) The speed of 210km / h is somehow not impressive for a military aircraft :)
Comparison: Junkers Ju 52 / 3m: In total, 1934, 1944 take-off mass, 4555 take-off weight, cruising speed 10,5 max 240 range 310 were manufactured from 1540 to 10. And this is a plane on XNUMX years earlier!
We take B-17: max. Weight 21, max speed 470 - and this is also the beginning of 30's.
In general, somehow I can not imagine how to put 5000km / 210km / h = the day the plane will fly, even assuming the presence of fuel, it will be shot down a hundred times.

[Egen]

Quote: Denis

There weren’t enough of them. Yes, and without fighter escort, he’s just a mess

Another addition.
"1-2" I meant by the scale of BB2 production. Unfortunately, there is no data on the availability of models in the troops as of the reporting dates. Now - a completely different technique, why compare. And then, for example, "Serial production of the B-17 continued until July 1945, and its volume was 12731 units." Me-323 is only 1,6% of it - so I'm sorry, not 1-2 and missed it, but 1-1,5 and that's it
Just don’t say that it’s incorrect to compare a bomber with a transporter, I myself understand that this is just an example of the capabilities of industries :)
In general, about German long-range aviation (not a transport carrier but still) - Grif looks to me more http://www.airaces.ru/plane/voennye-samoljoty-germanii/khejjnkel-he-177-grif.htm
l
max take-off weight 30, speed max 480, range 5600, and the rate of climb 3,25 - not so bad for such a machine. Deliveries of pre-production aircraft began in 1941, the total production (including prototypes) amounted to 1137 machines manufactured by Heinkel (414) and Arado (723).
Now this theoretically had a chance to compete with the Yankees, and it is a pity that they did not finish and did not enter! But if there was no sense in him, that’s why I suggested where the Me-323 should go :(

[tomket]

in general, Americans had more adequate transporters for that time, starting with Dakota and ending with Curtis s-46 and transporters based on the V-29, certainly the wide fuselage is good by now, but in 43, for example, it was needed as a 5 dog leg. instead of exotic, the Americans confidently stamped Dakota in huge quantities, well, tell me, who turned out to be right?

[Egen]

Quote: tomket

instead of exotic, the Americans confidently stamped Dakota in huge quantities, well, tell me, who turned out to be right?

The rhetorical question :) TVDs are different, times are different :)

[Denis]

Quote: Egen

vulture looks more

It was damp

The introduction of Heinkel He 177A in the unit went extremely slowly and was accompanied by frequent accidents - a complex motor installation failed.

And again there was no fighter escort
The Fokke-Wulf Fw 200 Condor was more refined, but it is also a bomber. It can only be used as a transport carrier for transporting Christmas packages
They also had ideas to use flying boats, they can be refueled with submarines in the ocean, and some could even be refueled

The BV 222, the largest flying boat of the Nazi Air Force, was originally commissioned by Lufthansa for transatlantic transportation. The terms of reference were issued at the end of 1936, and in 1937, following a design competition, the order was issued to Blom und Foss.

According to the technical design, the flying boat was to be equipped with six BRAMO 323R-2 engines of 1000 liters each. with., have a wingspan of 46 meters and a take-off weight of 45 tons. The boat had two decks. The lower room was cargo and, due to unsinkability, was divided by bulkheads into compartments. The construction of the prototype was delayed due to the fact that the aircraft factory in Hamburg was loaded with the production of the BV 138 scout. The prototype was only ready in the summer of 1940 and made its first flight on September 7, 1940. The tests lasted until the spring of 1941. After their completion, BV 222V-1 painted in camouflage color, assigned a tail number and on July 10 the plane flew from Hamburg to the north. The captain of the ship, Captain Helmut Rodig, headed for Kirkenes. Over seven voyages, the giant boat transported 65 tons of military cargo for the rangers of General Dietl and evacuated 221 seriously wounded. In these flights, the car reached a speed of 385 km / h at an altitude of 4500 m and covered 7000 km without refueling. The aircraft was designed to carry 92 armed soldiers or 72 stretcher wounded. It should be noted that in the first departures the BV 222V-1 did not have protective weapons and only in November 1941 received two 13-mm and five 7,9-mm machine guns.

But then again, what to accompany? Snapped on approach

[lelikas]

Quote: Egen

Just don’t say that it’s incorrect to compare a bomber with a transporter, I myself understand that this is just an example of the capabilities of industries :)

Well then, a more comparable example - the Union built
56 An-124 - a big country - you have to fly a lot, there is no war ....., I wanted to bring Mriyu (she is more similar), but then there are very few of them :)

[Denis]

Quote: lelikas

Well then, a more comparable example - the Union built
56 An-124 - a big country - you have to fly a lot, there is no war ....., I wanted to bring Mriya (she is more like), but then there are very few of them

Ruslans work, even Jackson’s vehicles were transported, and Mriya was made for a specific task

The reason for the construction of the An-225 was the need to create an aviation transport system for the Buran reusable spacecraft project. The main purpose of the heavy transport aircraft in the framework of this project was the transportation of various components of the launch vehicle and the spacecraft from the place of production and assembly to the launch site. There was also an important task of delivering the space shuttle to the cosmodrome in the event of its landing at alternate aerodromes.
In addition, it was planned to use the An-225 as the first stage of the spacecraft’s air launch system, which required an aircraft carrying capacity of at least 250 tons

Same as Atlas

VM-T "Atlant" (aka 3M-T, "3M, transport") is a heavy transport aircraft of the Myasishchev Design Bureau. It is a modification of the 3M strategic bomber. In total, 3 aircraft were built, one was transferred for testing at TsAGI.
It was used for transportation of rocket and space complexes from the plants to the Baikonur cosmodrome. On both Atlantes in the 1980s, more than 150 flights were made to deliver all large-sized elements of the Energia and Buran space complexes to Baikonur

Also from a bomber jacket
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/craft/vmt.html

[lelikas]

Quote: Denis

There weren’t enough of them. Yes, and without fighter escort he is just a target.

I agree - but it was about "a couple of pieces" :))
+ to this another 2000 flights on the eastern front,
+ how many more "Aunties Yu" were.

[Denis]

Quote: lelikas

+ how many more "Aunties Yu" were.

And they were also used more than once as platforms.

"Aunt Yu" with a "mouse tail"
German minesweepers on the Eastern Front
“At 09:02 in the Danzig Bay north of Hel’s lighthouse, two Yak-9 aircraft (presenter - senior lieutenant Kuzmin) found one minesweeper Yu-52 ... Given the value of the minesweeper, our pilots decided to bring the Yu-52 to their airfield ... Enemy aircraft flew for several minutes in the indicated direction, but then began to turn around to his ships. Fearing departure, our fighters fired several cannon-machine gun bursts at it, as a result of which the Yu-52 caught fire and, falling apart, fell into the water east of the Danzig port. A little later, at 14:30, two other Yak-9s met and shot down three more Yu-52s, trawling along the approaches to Libau. ” This is how the “Chronicle of the Great Patriotic War of the Soviet Union on the Baltic Sea and Lake Ladoga”, published in 1951, describes the events of February 18, 1945.

This is the first mention of the use of Mausi minesweepers in the official publication of the USSR Naval Ministry devoted to the Baltic war. In a similar work on the Black Sea, there is no mention of Ju-52MS aircraft at all. Nevertheless, German minesweepers have been actively used since 1940, including on the Soviet-German front.

The idea of ​​minesweepers was born in response to the massive use by the British Royal Air Force of non-contact mines against Germany. As you know, during the years of World War II, the British used 260 thousand mines in barriers, including 76 thousand non-contact (for comparison, the USSR - only about 60 thousand, including about 2,5 thousand non-contact). The shallow basins of the North and Southwest Baltic Seas allowed the use of aviation magnetic mines almost everywhere. Although the first English samples with a single-channel magnetic fuse without any problems were poured out by almost all known methods, the scale of the mine war was constantly increasing. The German mine defense forces, which were operating with increasing tension, urgently needed a new, high-performance minesweeper, capable of quickly processing large areas, taking into account the possible presence of multiples at the mines, in a short time. It is worth noting that even if the Germans had accurate maps of the mine airplanes of the British Air Force, the area of ​​mine-hazardous areas from this would hardly have significantly decreased. The British themselves during the post-war trawling accepted the accuracy of setting mines from the air at 50 (fifty!) Miles.

At the end of 1939, Theodor Beneke, a graduate of Kiel University with a degree in experimental physics, served in one of the Kriegsmarine units stationed in Kiel. Together with a colleague, a physicist from Munich, Professor Gerlach, he proposed a project to equip the Ju-52 transport aircraft with a device that generates a magnetic field of such strength that the mines explode at a safe distance after flying above them. As expected, the report went “on command” for consideration to the Technical Department of the Ministry of Aviation. Apparently, the English mine war already pretty much spoiled the nerves of the German command, because the answer came very quickly. It was ordered to immediately begin work on the manufacture of a trawl aircraft.

http://www.loveread.ec/read_book.php?id=12570&p=51

[Vadivak]

Quote: Egen

Can I read a reference somewhere about this?

look through the search engine surprised to see the plan of 1899.

I give an excerpt
The priority steps in preparing the conditions for the transfer of hostilities to the United States were the occupation of the Azores and strongholds on the west coast of Africa, in Iceland (Operation Icarus) and even Brazil, from where sea and air operations could be launched against the North American continent .

As evidenced by a letter from the head of the economic planning department of the colonial-political administration of Weigelt, dated July 1940, the Nazis considered the seizure of Central Africa as a prerequisite for the subsequent penetration into Latin America. In the future, in Berlin, they wanted to create a number of states dependent on Germany in South America. From the secret map obtained by American intelligence from the German diplomatic courier in Brazil during the war, it is clear that the Nazis intended to completely redraw the map of Latin America and create 14 vassal countries from 5 states. This was stated in a radio statement by US President Roosevelt on October 27, 1941. The fight against the United States was planned to unfold after the defeat of the USSR. In a conversation with Japanese Prime Minister Oshima on December 14, 1941, Hitler emphasized that the “defeat of Roosevelt” is possible only after the fulfillment of the “primary task - the destruction of Russia”.

[Egen]

Quote: Vadivak

look through the search engine surprised to see the 1899 plan

Thank you , I didn’t set a goal before, now I rummaged.
1) on the Wiki "German plan for the invasion of the United States": Wilhelm was a good fellow, he saw to the core that America in the future would be more troublesome :) Germany had ambitious plans for the beginning of the 2th century, and the US had practically no navy - just read about the best White fleet. But then England would not have allowed this, their fleet was out of competition. But in BB20, when Germany built quite good dreadnoughts, while the USA still had 1-5 6-inch turrets, and Germany decided to compete with England at sea - then yes ... Then, of course, America built any "suitcases", but there was a short period when Germany was in the lead at sea, there was a chance.
2) about 5 plans of already fascist Germany, he also found http://foreigniceland.forum2x2.ru/t4961-topic, but all of them were based on conquered England. And rightly so, without taking over the island - nowhere, but the IMHO Germans did not take into account the 2 moment: their own losses during the capture of the island and then the time required for their completion and preparation for the invasion operation in the USA. And just this time delta is critical - the Americans would have time to prepare.
3) dug an interesting article about the intelligence of Germany in England and America http://www.plam.ru/hist/nemeckaja_pjataja_kolonna_vo_vtoroi_mirovoi_voine/p16.ph
p

[Volkhov]

Quote: Vadivak

The last fifth option

A more original version worked - the Americans themselves brought the Germans as technical specialists, and a few years later they discovered that they had another line of submission and they did not forget Germany.

[cdrt]

There was a US attack plan through Latin America

So much so that it was planned by people who could not in fact plan a ferry across the 37km strait in a situation where it was 15-20 minutes from their airfields to enemy ships.
And here...
The Germans could not win a single squadron battle in WWII. Nowhere and never.
In the Arctic, their heavy cruisers lost to the English lungs and destroyers ...

Submarines - yes, they fought, but they are pirates, not warriors. Their target enemy is unarmed merchants.

And so ... the American fleet to pick up the Germans? well ... alternative reality if only

[dustycat]

Quote: cdrt

In the Arctic, their heavy cruisers lost to the English lungs and destroyers ...

Submarines - yes, they fought, but they are pirates, not warriors. Their target enemy is unarmed merchants.

And so ... the American fleet to pick up the Germans? well ... alternative reality if only

The American fleet appeared in the Atlantic only after 1942.
And before 1941 - don’t remember whose sailors jammed up a scrambled egg the size of the helm of your ship?

[tomket]

well, if you remember, the USA declared war on Germany only after Pearl Harbor, in December 41, so what was it in the Atlantic to do then?

[Egen]

Quote: cdrt

The Germans could not win a single squadron battle in WWII

Jutland :)

[dustycat]

Quote: Vadivak

There was a plan to attack the United States through Latin America with allies who did not like the United States and who actually loves them there?

So that none of the plans would drive the British and merge the Germans with a misinformation about the readiness of the USSR to attack Germany in early June 1941.
Despite the fact that the British knew exactly the date of completion of the rearmament of the Red Army - the beginning of August 1941.

[Vadivak]

Quote: dustycat

So that none of the plans would drive the British and merge the Germans with a misinformation about the readiness of the USSR to attack Germany in early June 1941.

Yes, I read about it. Back in the days of the USSR in open sources. And then everyone turned the other way around

[Denis]

Quote: Vadivak

The range is really no only 1 km.

Cunning, or rather juggle with numbers

Practical range: 800 km
Ferrying range: 1100 km

Agree, they differ
Especially

In total, from March 1942 (the beginning of flight tests) and the summer of 1942 (the beginning of mass production) until the beginning of 1944, 201 devices of all versions and modifications were built (the highest production rate in February 1943 was 27 units, then an average of 8,5 was built, XNUMX aircraft per month).

A 201 * 11 kg is not thick for supply
Moreover, there is nothing to accompany them. With mattress carriers, and there were enough of them, they would be carried halfway
The project is akin to when Hemingway from his yacht wanted to hunt for a submarine. And nothing that was equipped with equipment and depth charges, pops up to blow out, throw grenades
<< hooligan fleet >>:

The naval command requisitioned 1240 yachts, trawlers and whalers from shipowners, turning them into hunters of black death - with a set of sonar equipment and a stock of depth charges on board.

So they were armed and equipped, but ...
Locator, sonar and jet bomb on the destroyer, they could handle the boat

[Egen]

Quote: Uzoliv

The Germans would have failed

... IMHO, even taking into account the involvement in the business of all Argentina and Mexico described in science fiction ...
... and another thing is the lack of coordination between the Navy of Germany and Japan. I believe that all the same joint chances were to block the Panama Canal. Yes, and Japan gave a blunder - sprayed forces on Manchuria (held the group), and on half of Asia, and on Pearl Harbor. Samurai were warriors, together with a trip to Australia they could go to visit both Hawaii and San Diego, as while the USA on the East coast had nothing else, the result could have been different ... The final, however, would not have changed :(

[cdrt]

Samurai were warriors, together with a trip to Australia they could go to visit both Hawaii and San Diego

So they wanted ... The battle at Father Midway is called.
It ended quite characteristically: the Americans - 1 aircraft carrier loss, the Japanese - 4 (i.e., all those present in the battle).
Where to grab Hawaii without support halfway.
And before San Diego - hmm ... probably you do not need computer global strategies to interfere with harsh reality

[dustycat]

Quote: cdrt

So they wanted ... The battle at Father Midway is called.

They went there at the wrong time.
Too late.
If it weren’t for garbage in polynesia and micronesia and with the islands - who knows - there would be bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[Su-9]

"Garbage" in Micronesia and Polynesia was needed in order to somehow control Java and Borneo. I hope there is no need to explain why the Yapas needed these islands and why they held on to them until August 45?

[Egen]

Quote: Su-9

to at least somehow control Java and Borneo. I hope there is no need to explain why the Yapes needed these islands and why did they hold on to them until August 45?

By and large - it may and should be - sorted out. I also thought about gas, but:
1) first to capture P-Harbor, Frisco, LA gasoline would have been enough stock - after all, it was not immediately in December that the 41 went off the field.
2) but recently there was an article here about the supply of oil to the Japanese from Sakhalin, in this light it is not at all clear what they climbed to the south. At the end of the 41 m / nar, the community was inclined that the USSR was almost over, and Germany was stronger than ever. Therefore, capturing neighboring Sakhalin is not a problem at all. I didn’t play strategy games about Japan, I played Heroes :) But I must say that the computer is different from reality :)

[Su-9]

Yes. A computer is very different from reality. But basic concepts can be simulated. The truth is that the economic development of Japan before WWII was at the level of Italy (maybe Italy with Yugoslavia). If it was interesting, when it was a toy - Hearts of Iron - there is a good mat. model.
They built the fleet for 30 years with a strain of all forces. Aviation was secondary. The army is third-rate, mainly relying on the samurai spirit (which was not so much since the elite went into the fleet) and on the experience of the 1905 war. But even with a huge merchant fleet, Yapam was difficult to capture the almost unguarded part of the islands in the Pacific Ocean.
Regarding Java and Sumatra - yes, of course, the Yapes needed oil and metals. Its not purchased. Regarding Sakhalin oil - as far as I know, it was very small and it was suitable only for fuel oil, while oil from Sumatra is very light. In addition, there were excellent refineries - the construction of which takes years. In the USSR there were one such plants, in Baku.
As for how Yapam would have captured Zap. US coast. In principle, it is impossible, unless you sink all the American ships.
Imagine a hypothetical situation that all American ships rusted and sank along with all the engineers. And all the shipyards burned down. And in Canada the same story.
The Yapes collect their entire merchant fleet and carry troops to San Francisco. The question is how much will they be able to transport divisions?
In their best condition, during the invasion of the Philippines, which are much closer to the metropolis, the Yapis were able to land the 14th army at a time (the best of which was the way). They did not have enough ships for more.
Do you know how many people were in the 14th army? 22 thousand (2 infantry of the division, 3 tank regiments and auxiliary units).
Well. Imagine that the Yapes land 22 thousand without loss in San Francisco (where, of course, the local, according to many Coca-Cola pederastic population escapes from them).

The fleet in full steam rushes back to the mother country for reinforcements and supplies (average speed 9 knots). There it is 11t. miles - or 50 days. Plus 10 days for loading if you ship the whole world and nothing breaks.
Well, how long do you think the 2 divisions will last despite the fact that the train travels from one coast to another for 3 days. And no matter how the amers had a bad time with the army, they had 20 divisions. Plus, the local police who were sleeping (and now sleeping) with guns under the bed.

Well, and after. Even in the USSR (with the economic and resource potential more comparable with America) there were no such ideas as crossing the Pacific Ocean.
I hope convinced.

[Su-9]

Yes. I fully support. And in Japan’s computer strategies, in order to cross the Quiet Window and maintain at least some sort of landing, it is necessary to develop intensively without war until the age of 50, at least somehow subjugating China and Indonesia for resources.

[Egen]

Quote: cdrt

So they wanted ... The battle at Father Midway is called.

Duc, exactly six months later! And without drowning aircraft carriers in Hawaii! It was too late. Even without considering the not-so-good tactics of the Japanese in the battle, strategically they no longer had a chance to win the war - because all US industry remained intact and began to work for war. But the fleet was transferred from PX to the mainland, and when it was restored - back. I meant that if the Japanese immediately attacked both the PX and the base in San Diego, and at the same time Frisco. And they didn’t bomb and retired stupidly, as in PX, but really captured. Yes, at least the same PX captured, already something.
IMHO they had real opportunities. There were no serious opponents (we consider PX destroyed) on the theater of operations. Landing in the Philippines and others and a cruise to India and Australia indicates that it will land, though seriously, on the coast of America, they could.
And English from Singapore would not have disappeared. Because of the war in Europe, on the contrary, their opportunities were declining, rather than building up, as in the United States, and I can’t get it, why the Japanese trampled on them without capturing PX and not crushing defense and industry in California.
and San Diego ... I was there, though after 57 years :) A good town, but IMHO was just one tooth for the Japanese :) It is not surrounded by mountains of Port Arthur 1904, and not fortified Singapore 1942 :)

[Hort]

hmm ... well, it’s clear that only under the conditions of the destruction of the Allied fleet, landing would be possible. About to take control of the prom. areas - duck there weren’t very many of them, all mainly in the north.

[Egen]

Quote: hort

About to take control of the prom. areas - duck there weren’t very many of them, all mainly in the north.

Yeah, even in LA and Frisco there was nothing so serious from industry that only after Pearl Harbor did the Yankees feverishly build their base there.
There was only a small aircraft factory Leonardo di Caprio :)

[Vovka levka]

Quote: Uzoliv

Quote: hort

This is purely hypothetical: how many months would the Wehrmacht take to win if he received a bridgehead on the US coast?

And there is no chance of success. The Germans would not be able to supply their grouping across the ocean, the combined British-American fleet is stronger, it would simply block the supply routes. And in the United States, initial success was possible, but only for a short time. The Germans could not control the vast territory, which means they could not take control of all industrial areas, and taking into account how many weapons the local population had in their hands, the scope of the partisan movement would be great. The Germans would have failed.

The winner is the one with more resources and a better economy.

[Egen]

Quote: Vovka Levka

The one with more resources and better economy wins

... provided that he succeeds in transferring the industry to military tracks, while the Germans in general have proved that this is not always possible with the blitzkrieg :)

[cdrt]

... provided that he succeeds in transferring the industry to military tracks, while the Germans in general have proved that this is not always possible with the blitzkrieg :)

When there the Germans then the economy itself was transferred to military rails? Isn’t it to 1944 ...
And the USA by the end of 1942 ... Actually, I think even the USSR is faster (which, after all, had begun to do this even before the war).
Well ... if we talk about WWII lessons, I think there is only one indisputable lesson - it makes no sense to fight with countries occupying an entire continent

[dustycat]

Quote: cdrt

And the USA by the end of 1942 ... Actually, I think even the USSR is faster (which, after all, had begun to do this even before the war).

Well, except that 70% of American industry was in Europe, and in particular in Germany and the Czech Republic.
The Yankees began to prepare for war during the Great Depression and not from 0, unlike the USSR.

[Egen]

Quote: cdrt

When there the Germans then the economy itself was transferred to military rails? Isn’t it to 1944 ...

That's for sure, we scratched ourselves by the 43, but only by the 44 we got it :) Usa, yes, literally in a few months.

Quote: cdrt

if we talk about the lessons of WWII, I think there is only one indisputable lesson - it makes no sense to fight with countries occupying an entire continent

et yes :)

[Su-9]

Yah? And who did the Germans defeat with a blitzkrieg, who had a better economy?
The answer is nobody. Only weak opponents.

The winner is the one with more resources and a better economy. Dot.

Like the USSR in 41-45 - more resources and a better economy.
Like 5 years ago in Georgia.
Like 200 years ago with Napoleon ...

[Egen]

Quote: Su-9

Yah? And who did the Germans defeat with a blitzkrieg, who had a better economy? The answer is nobody. Only weak opponents.

Well, why, and France? in general, not the last country was economically. At least iron ore was mined more, but I didn’t understand where it was going :)
But compared to Germany, even 1940 and especially 41 (i.e. almost all of Europe) in the USSR, production was less developed - http://www.teatrskazka.com/Raznoe/StatSbornikVOV/StSbVOV01.html
By the way, in the same place I was surprised to learn that it turns out that in 1940 in Germany, 252 million tons of coal were mined, and our Kuzbass has not even reached this :(

[Su-9]

In terms of economic potential, the USSR caught up with Germany. Of course, when the Germans took Chekhov, the Austrians, the French and the Benelux, their potential was greater. Although there is one But.
In the USSR during the war 90%? economy went to the army. The Germans until mid-44 produced consumer goods. And their allies - so the whole war. Plus, of course, you need to consider the lendlis that did help us. But the Germans throughout the war did not have economic superiority. Except maybe the beginning of 41 years when they traded with us ...
In terms of economic potential, the USSR caught up with Germany. Of course, when the Germans took Chekhov, the Austrians, the French and the Benelux, their potential was greater. Although there is one But.
In the USSR during the war 90%? economy went to the army. The Germans until mid-44 produced consumer goods. And their allies - so the whole war. Plus, of course, you need to consider the lendlis that did help us. But the Germans throughout the war did not have economic superiority. Except maybe the beginning of 41 years when they traded with us ...

and the French economy was weak and not put on a war footing. in addition, the Angles of their associates in the year 40 threw so God forbid.

[dustycat]

Quote: Vovka Levka

The winner is the one with more resources and a better economy.

There is one film-tale about two descendants of the Gallic Slavs - "Not always!"
The winner is the one who uses the available resources in the most rational way.
The British very on time set the Germans on the USSR - knowing the date of completion of the rearmament of the Red Army, they threw the Germans into misinformation.
And they won.
If the Germans continued their capture of Africa and began, as planned, to seize the Atlantic islands and establish a base in Argentina and Colombia, which side would be taken by the Yankees in 1942 is a big question.

[Su-9]

The biggest question, whose side would we take (the USSR)? In the municipality until June 41 we supported Hitler ...

[tomket]

who told you? in fact, we fought with him in Spain, when later it turned out that the British and the French had other plans for the anti-Hitler coalition, I had to sign a pact so that 39 wouldn’t come to us

[Su-9]

With Spain, if without stamps, not everything is so simple. There were fewer of ours than the French or even the Mexicans. We sold weapons to Spain for gold (Stalin was not). There are many versions of the reasons for support, and the suppression of Trotskyism is one of them.
We did not fight Hitler in Spain. But if you want to think like that, then specifically, you fought with Franco, then with Mussolini, then with Salazar, and only then with Hitler. Politically, the struggle against fascism looked very good to the USSR. Ho during the war in Spain, economic relations with the Reich worked simply gorgeous. With Italy, too, by the way - during the Spanish War, Mussolini built us Tashkent and sold drawings of everything we agreed to buy.
And all these polites about the anti-fascist coalition - no one knows how it was. There is only one truth - until June 41, the USSR peacefully returned almost all territories lost to civilian territory, having close economic ties with the Germans.
It did not work out only with the Finns.

[Denis]

Quote: Su-9

until June 41 we supported Hitler ...

Yes, what really is there, lie right away as the discovery and so forth were allies
What was the support?

[Su-9]

Dear Denis. Labels do not need to be hung immediately. The Germans and I were not allies. But the fact that they worked very actively is true. By the way, we cooperated mutually - we bought technologies from them and supported Hitler economically by selling resources, which by the way does not mean at all that we supported him politically.
and we bought airplanes, ships, engines, metallurgical and chemical technonologies from them. I.G. Farben from 40 to 41 built most of
our chemical industry. Which we later, by the way, successfully used against the Germans.

[Denis]

Quote: Su-9

Cooperated by the way mutually beneficial

That was, I do not argue. But not for the same thing as to support them, and not like the light of democracy

Ford supported Hitler not only in words: in the thirties he annually congratulated “his German friend” on his birthday, while giving him a “present” of 50 Reichsmarks. According to the American military historian Henry Schneider, Ford helped the Germans in obtaining rubber, which is vital for German industry. Moreover, before the start of World War II, the owner of the US auto giant supplied Hitler with military equipment, for which, in honor of the 000th anniversary of the Ford, the Führer awarded the hero with the Great Cross of the German Eagle - the highest award that a foreigner from the Nazis at that time could receive .. A German consul made a trip to Detroit to personally hang a Golden Cross with a swastika on his chest. Ford was delighted with this award. The grand festive dinner organized on the anniversary day, July 75, 30, was attended by over 1938 of the richest Detroiters. This happened exactly four months after the Anschluss of Austria and the outbreak of mass terror against Viennese Jews. A lot could tell about the influence of Henry Ford on Hitler, a photograph of an American industrialist, hanging in a frame on the wall of the Fuhrer’s office.

[Su-9]

well, there’s such a moment. Ford was an ardent anti-Semite. Because of this, the Nazis loved him from the beginning of the 20s, reprinted his articles - Hitler even printed it at MainKampf. Ford did not like financiers and communists - and these were mainly Jews in the 10s and 20s (I do not write this so that the flame is kindled here, but it looks like it was). Anyway, the old man was pleased when a person of the same worldview as he (Hitler) became the leader of Germany. How there Ford Adolf helped with rubber - it's a dark matter. But since he had factories in Cologne, and the business worked before Mussolini declared war on the Americans, Ford may well have helped as much as he could before. Then it’s unlikely, he simply requested that his plants not be bombed severely by amers.
So it goes.

[Denis]

Quote: Su-9

Well, there’s such a moment. Ford was an ardent anti-Semit

If he alone or these too?

Trade with the enemy. Charles Higham. The book mentions many companies, concerns (such as “I. G. Farben”, “ITT”, “Standard Oil”, “General Motors”, “Ford”, “Sterling Products, etc.), banks and surnames, positions, who was who, what negotiations was conducted, with whom he met, specific transactions, supply volumes, etc. etc. Members of the "Brotherhood" held the highest posts in the power structures of the United States and England, so business on the blood of their compatriots flourished in lush color throughout the war.

[Su-9]

Of course, not only Ford supported Hitler. The book you are talking about is not read. But how Americans or someone from the allies could trade with the Germans in '42 (from which they began to fight with them) I can not imagine - maybe only drawings through Switzerland / Sweden. Until the 42nd - they traded on anyone. Well, so we traded until June 22.

[Denis]

Quote: Su-9

except drawings via switzerland / sweden.

Through that money and dockУthe cops went, and all of South оmeasure? There Natsik paradise was

[dustycat]

Quote: Uzoliv

And there is no chance of success. The Germans would not be able to supply their grouping across the ocean,

And could they transport the meat and grub sold by them by the Americans before 1944 across the ocean from Chile, Brazil and Argentina and Colombia?
Even in 1945, a fair amount of oil and meat was sold to them by the Yankees from Argentina.
The Germans simply did not give due attention to this idea.
And their surface fleet competed too much with the submarine - if the raiders, instead of using the traders to no avail, would supply the Kriegsmarine with a submarine on one of the Atlantic islands, it is not yet known whose side the Yankees took in 1943.

[dustycat]

Quote: Uzoliv

And in the United States, initial success was possible, but only for a short time. The Germans could not control the vast territory, which means they could not take control of all industrial areas,

What for? The Yankees would take control of themselves.
The Nazis in America until 1942 were a completely legitimate party.
The rabbis brought Jews to Babi Yar.

Quote: Uzoliv

Well, taking into account how many weapons the local population had on hand, the scope of the partisan movement would be great. The Germans would have failed.

Fi, partisanism is so illegal and uncivilized!
Partisanism - Russian barbarism.
And do not forget - in the United States racial segregation at that time was in the law - they lacked a real leader.

[kanevsvv]

If the British could help the sea, then at home, but in such open spaces, they would be able to establish a steam rink for sure. American patriotism is no worse than ours

[Recon]

I think 3-4 months

[Nayhas]

Quote: hort

This is purely hypothetical: how many months would the Wehrmacht take to win if he received a bridgehead on the US coast?

Sorry, but the question is absolutely stupid, because the answer depends on a thousand questions, one of which is the most important, how many transports will be needed, to supply one division even if there is no opposition to cargo transportation and where to get so much from Germany ... They fucked up in Africa, and there the whole Italian fleet helped them, and you are about the USA ...

[Nevsky]

Quote: Nayhas

Quote: hort

This is purely hypothetical: how many months would the Wehrmacht take to win if he received a bridgehead on the US coast?

Sorry, but the question is absolutely stupid, because the answer depends on a thousand questions, one of which is the most important, how many transports will be needed, to supply one division even if there is no opposition to cargo transportation and where to get so much from Germany ... They fucked up in Africa, and there the whole Italian fleet helped them, and you are about the USA ...

ATTENTION!

Then the question is even more stupid and more fantastic. We hypothetically imagine that if we teleported all the divisions of the Wehrmacht and SS on June 21 near the USSR, on June 22 near the USA, albeit from Canada. I understand that there are many experts in the field of the fleet, logistics and supply. But the question above, I am sure, implied the morale of resistance and struggle on their land. Naturally, we want conditions for the USA that fell on the shoulders of the USSR. Otherwise, why fantasize if the wise guy really and deservedly says that the supply would be cut off over the ocean? A wise guy would be pleased, but a great-grandson who had lost his grandfather on the fronts would never have known the ability of the land and air continental army of the United States to resist with such an armada !!! So Germany on the border of Canada / USA, is directed towards the USA. Or even simpler, suppose it has a land border with America.

3 army groups (a total of 181 divisions, including 19 tank and 14 motorized, and 18 brigades) [9]. Air support was provided by 3 air fleets and all against the United States. Plus the satellites of Eastern Europe, they, too, by magic and with their industry, ended up in Canada. Question: "How much would the brave German, Hungarian and Romanian lads reach the Mexican border? And would there be hero cities of the United States? Chicago would defend 72 days ?, and imagine the American army in a cauldron near Dalas and finally the fall of Olympus - Washington!" !! ??? And American kids are behind the machines of factories evacuated to the South of the United States? !!! I do not argue, in those years, in the United States there was still no cult of consumption, perhaps in some places the Yankees would have stood to death, but they still take me vague doubts that the Americans would keep the whole country and the capital !!!

[Uzoliv]

And this is generally utopia. The Americans did not have a strong army since there was no strong enemy on the continent, which is called there was no need. Suppose that Germany is initially located in Canada, (plus allies) and it is hostile. In this case, the American congress, with an eye on its constituents, would simply require the creation of a powerful army from the American government. They had the potential for this and they later showed it. The Germans could not overtake them here. At that time, the US economic potential is higher than Germany, along with its allies. And taking into account the fact that all these Hungarians, Romanians and other things are always for those who win, then most likely they would lick the USA, they would simply be outbid and again the Germans would be weaker. The Germans have an excellent command staff. And of course, the war would be difficult for the United States and maybe they would surrender Washington. But only Washington is not Moscow. Moscow is a large industrial center and communications center. And Washington is a seedy provincial town, there is nothing to take.
If you bet, then I would bet on the Yankees. There are many factors that indicate that they are stronger.

[Pimply]

The Americans had and have a regularly training national guard. At that time - a large percentage of well-trained veterans, and a large number of weapons on hand. Plus - a powerful industry.

[Selevc]

You forget about the fighting traditions of the US Army - they cannot fight without a refrigerator full of Coca-Cola, without a pair of fresh socks and without a guaranteed numerical superiority over the enemy !!!
It’s not a matter of how many people the United States could put under arms and how much their industry could produce military equipment, but could America withstand a blow similar to the German Blitzkrieg in Europe? - The Germans knew how to beat the big ones with lesser forces !!! The main quality, organization and discipline of the troops and not their quantity !!! An experienced fighter armed with even the most advanced weapons may well be able to defeat a dozen unshooted newcomers ...

[Su-9]

Andrew, dear. Here we can repeat 1000 times about the dependence of Americans on Coca-Cola, refrigerators, ice cream and pedarastia.
But, as Khoja Nasreddin said, no matter how much you say Halvah, it will not become sweeter in your mouth.
You are from Ukraine - talk to the guys who serve in Liberia about which Americans they saw there and with which shoulder bandies were wet with shoulder to shoulder.
And who is weak and who is not.
The American army is a strong army (not the strongest). They really have a bunch of people who can handle weapons, and in excellent physical shape. And do not compare our elite units with them.
If you think that the Americans are the enemy - evaluate them realistically.
there are few unfired.

[Selevc]

I tell you about Thomas, and you tell me about Yerema !!! Actually, here is an article about the state of the US Army in the 40s of the last century and not now !!! Although even now they have been dragging many of their traditions since then !!!

I think you will not run away from me that the Liberian bandits, or the Iraqi or Libyan troops, are a worthy opponent of the US army? The Germans at one time were a very worthy opponent for them and beat the Anglo-Americans twice in the Ardennes ... Moreover, the second time they were not allowed to finish off them mainly with a banal lack of fuel and lubricants !!!

Do you think that in order to handle the three-ruler or the PCA during the war years, some special training was needed? If this preparation was there, it came down to two or three lessons, and many fought perfectly without training !!! It's just that our people are savvy, unlike the Yankees !!!

[Su-9]

ndrei, your quote? "An experienced fighter armed with not even the most modern weapons can easily defeat a dozen unarmed newcomers ..."
So do you need to train or not?
But seriously - then Americans as a nation (at least their core ethnos) are a very serious adversary. This is a mixture of Germans and English, who in addition still had enough passionarity to break into new lands. In the war on their territory, their population showed themselves not very badly.
No army could withstand blitzkrieg (in the sense of containing a tank rink). If you look at the story from 39 to 20013, the blitzkrieg stopped in 3 cases:
1) reaching the opposite border.
2) the complete depletion of resources coming
3) counterattack of the same tank rink.
But I think that here people who studied at the academies of the General Staff will better explain. I am not a great specialist.
In the early 40s, the Americans had a small and professional army. The level of training of the westpoint was excellent; being an officer was super prestigious. The soldiers were so-so - who will come. Then they organized the draft, the army - a section of society, the soldiers became better. The fact that they had a different approach to offensive and defensive operations was unconditional. But do not forget that, in principle, they achieved almost all of their goals in WWII (well, maybe they didn’t take Berlin).
And the Germans were a worthy adversary for everyone (and practically until the end of the war). Amers had problems in the Ardennes, in Badapest and on Balaton - but they did not have any influence on the outcome.

By the way, I write this as a person whose 2 generations of the family fought with them, (Korea and the Egyptian Empire), and I'm just fighting.

And so, by the way, the amers did not have any special problems in Iraq. Like a knife went into the butter. Then they fought with the partisans - it is always difficult, if without total sweeps. What is in Iraq, what is in Chechnya, what is in Nicaragua. Yes, and with the pirates I did not hear about their problems.

[cdrt]

At that time, the US economic potential is higher than Germany, along with its allies

According to many estimates, in 1941 the US economy ranged from 40 to 50% of the economy of the whole world. I’m afraid that the USA could capture Germany only by conquering, subjugating and equipping the USSR and the British Empire as a base.
But she could probably bring the war into the Cold War state, again, having captured the USSR and Britain (though without an empire).
Landing across the ocean could be performed on both sides, but here defeat the equal fleets of other dr. probably could not (see Jutland as an example).
They would have remained in the state of the Cold War. In 40 years there would have been "Perestroika" of the German Empire , its collapse and all over again

[dustycat]

Quote: cdrt

According to many estimates, in 1941 the US economy ranged from 40 to 50% of the economy of the whole world.

And she received raw materials for her from Africa and South America.
Do not remind what kind of devil Rommel drove the British for sugar?
If it were not for the British disinformation about the German attack by the USSR in June 1941, Rommel would have caught up with the British to South Africa and Manchuria.
And the Japanese would have quietly deprived the Yankees of raw materials from the Pacific.
The British did not hide that the attack on the USSR in July 1941 was their most successful operation in WW2.

[Vadivak]

Quote: dustycat

Rommel would catch up with the British to South Africa and Manchuria.

The fact that he was stupidly lacking fuel at the right moment is a fact. And Alameim Mongometri is mediocre squeezing at times superior forces

[Egen]

Quote: Nevsky

Then the question is even more stupid and more fantastic

this is no longer fiction but utopia :) At that time, the USA did not have such an army, navy and industry as in the middle of 1942. So I couldn’t hold out at all :) I read the descriptions when on the East Coast there was only an 1 plane with an 1 Japanese submarine, dropping bombs on the forest :), I made a rustle in half the country :)
Oh, it’s not there that they turned the rake of Comrade. Stalin and Mr. Sh-Gruber. The whole history teaches that we would be friends with the Germans, and fight against the Anglo-Saxons, who essentially enthroned Hitler to the throne, but it turns out that we all follow their lead, they achieved what they wanted - they set off Russia and Germany, and themselves and profited from this: well, England as an empire simply ceased to be, but the States advanced - what is the difference between the Anglo-Saxons by and large, the right hand or the left ...

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Egen

At that time, the United States did not have such an army, navy and industry as in mid-1942. So it would not have survived at all :)

Obviously meaningless argument - in the period under review, the United States did not prepare for war with a land enemy. And they could not prepare, because there was absolutely no one to fight. Because here it is incorrect to draw any conclusions and assumptions

If Germany was geographically located in Mexico, there would be a completely different story and the pre-war industry and the US army would look completely different

And the fleet, by the way, they had. One of the most powerful in the world.

[Pimply]

You have expelled the National Guard units. And the whole army too. 8) Yes, the plane made a rustle - because they thought it was a massive raid. But what Americans cannot be denied is the ability to quickly group together and give a sharp answer.

[cdrt]

profited from this

How interesting is that?
In Britain, they made money, it’s clear that Cash and carry acted until all the money was squeezed from the WB.
What about us? (please answer SERIOUSLY after studying the issue of payment of Lend-Lease)

[Egen]

Quote: cdrt

What about us? (please answer SERIOUSLY after studying the issue of payment of Lend-Lease)

Hmm, do you have any other data besides information on payment for gold supplies? If there is, please give, interesting.
Well, in general, this is confirmed by the fact that after BB2 America began to dominate the world, including economically, and he, the world, switched to the dollar ...

[Nayhas]

Quote: Nevsky

but vague doubts still take me that the Americans would keep the whole country and the capital !!!

And what are your doubts based on? From 1944 to 1945 The US Army and its allies defeated German troops and liberated more than half of Europe, while ordinary GI Joe in Europe was completely indifferent to this fuss. For an ordinary American, this was another European squabble that did not concern him, much less perishing for no reason that it was pointless. What motivation could he have? But after all, they fought, perished, became crippled, in order to free France, for example, whose citizens did not give a damn about protecting their country and calmly drank wine at restaurants ... If they fought for interests that were absolutely foreign to them, then why did you get it What kind of land would they fight worse?

[Hort]

just do not forget that in the year 41, the Americans did not have a serious, battle-hardened army. And in Europe they fought far from the best parts of the Wehrmacht.
It is enough to recall the Ardennes, in which if it were not for the lack of reserves among the Germans, they would have raked specifically. Although the availability of reserves is of course also a factor. One of the most important, perhaps.
However, if the Allied army collided with units that fought on the Eastern Front, in my opinion, they would be guaranteed to be swept aside, as under Dunkirk

[cdrt]

And in Europe they fought far from the best parts of the Wehrmacht

6 SS Panzer Army, tank and parachute units, parachutists, for example.

I could never understand why, for a large number of those who comment here, the exaltation of our glory goes through the chilling of someone else's (enemy, allied - it does not matter). Doesn’t it turn out differently?

[Hort]

No one cries, but the fact remains: the most combat-ready units were on the Eastern Front

[Nayhas]

Quote: hort

just do not forget that in the year 41, the Americans did not have a serious, battle-hardened army

Yeah, where did it come from in 1944? In D-Day, the troops participated had practically no combat experience, yes, some of them passed through Italy, Sicily and North Africa, but there were very few of them.

[Egen]

Quote: Nayhas

And what are your doubts based on? 1944 to 1945 US Army with allies defeated German troops

Dear, dear , in 44, the Yankees were no longer the same, and the Germans were no longer the same :) And in the beginning, the Japanese gave them heat in the islands, the loss ratio was decent. Even then, pulling up the 16-dm gunboats, the Yankees suffered decent losses in people.
By the way, America was specially created for the blitzkrieg - plains for maneuver and industry are packed in cities on the banks, and the mountains are one name compared to the Caucasus and the Alps :) I'm not talking about the Rockies, this is not our Urals, there was nothing to fight for them , the city of Phoenix has just been built, and the Hoover Dam - that's the whole foundation :)

[cdrt]

Then the question is even more stupid and more fantastic

Maybe this is already on another site? Type of Organization of Alternative Ukrainian History?

[dustycat]

Quote: Nevsky

Then the question is even more stupid and more fantastic. We hypothetically imagine that if we teleported all the divisions of the Wehrmacht and SS on June 21 near the USSR, on June 22 near the USA, albeit from Canada.

From the Mexican side it will be more plausible - there were secret German bases in Colombia and at the mouth of the Amazon.
Mexicans are certainly not a gift, but an option based on their respect for strength and dislike for the wealthier and despising them could work.
And then, racial segregation and the cries already begun about the equality of color and white in Matrasia are also an interesting aspect.

[Vladimirets]

Quote: Nayhas

one of them is the most important, how many transports will be needed to supply one division, even in the absence of opposition to cargo transportation and where there are so many of them to take to Germany ...

Against this background, we can recall the air supply of the 6th Paulus Army, albeit with airplanes, but in general it was a short distance and how it all ended.

[Hort]

I understand that the question is not one of genius. But then again, to clarify, let's say the Germans landed somewhere in the Florida area or on the Mexican coast. Thus, they have a rear with resources in the form of Latin America, with the countries of which they began to cooperate even before the war.

[Vladimirets]

Quote: hort

Thus, they have a rear with resources in the form of Latin America,

They quickly organize mining plants, build blast furnaces, melt steel, build factories for the production of tanks, aircraft and weapons, as well as ammunition, while recruiting volunteers from the local army and growing their soldiers in hastily created colonies and in no time in 30 years moving north, to Washington!

[Corsair5912]

Quote: Nayhas

Quote: hort

This is purely hypothetical: how many months would the Wehrmacht take to win if he received a bridgehead on the US coast?

Sorry, but the question is absolutely stupid, because the answer depends on a thousand questions, one of which is the most important, how many transports will be needed, to supply one division even if there is no opposition to cargo transportation and where to get so much from Germany ... They fucked up in Africa, and there the whole Italian fleet helped them, and you are about the USA ...

There is nothing stupid in the question. German submariners repeatedly secretly landed on the eastern coast of the United States and there were no difficulties with the capture of the bridgehead by the Germans.
In Africa, there were no local sources for the supply of German troops, nor industry, nor agriculture, and the eastern coast of the United States is an area with highly developed industry and agriculture.
Until 1939, the US population was 130 million.
"The size of the American army in 1939 was only 544,7 thousand people, of which 190 thousand were in the regular army, 200 thousand in the National Guard and 154,7 thousand in the navy.
... the U.S. Navy consisted of more than 300 warships, including 15 battleships, 5 aircraft carriers, 36 cruisers, 181 destroyers, 99 submarines, 7 gunboats and 26 mine sweepers. The fleet also had a large number of auxiliary ships for various purposes. However, many destroyers and submarines were obsolete ...
...the ships were consolidated in two fleets - the Pacific and Atlantic, in which
there were compounds of battleships, aircraft carriers, cruisers, destroyers, submarines, auxiliary and amphibious forces. The structure of naval aviation included about 300 aircraft.
In the air force of the army on the eve of the war, there were 1576 combat aircraft. By the beginning of the war, the United States had a good B-17 heavy bomber ("flying fortress"), but did not have equal fighters and attack aircraft needed to support the ground forces. In terms of the quantity and quality of military equipment and weapons, American aviation as a whole was inferior to British and German ones. "
So, by the beginning of World War II, the US army was no stronger than the Polish and it was unlikely that the United States would last longer than Poland and there would be no partisan movement there. The Yankees would plow at the Germans, like the French, Czechs and Poles.

[Hort]

their last landing was at the end of the war, if my memory serves me right. They wanted to establish a beacon for pointing the FAU-3 to New York. But the saboteurs were killed

[Egen]

Quote: hort

their last landing was at the end of the war, if my memory serves me right. They wanted to establish a beacon for pointing the FAU-3 to New York. But the saboteurs were killed

I didn’t hear, it’s interesting, can I dig out a link somewhere?

[Hort]

Operation Elster

On the night of 29 on November 1944 of the year, a German U-1230 submarine surfaced in the Gulf of Man, not far from Boston, from which a small inflatable boat departed, carrying two saboteurs equipped with weapons, false documents, money and jewels, as well as various radio equipment.

From this point on, the operation Elster (Forty), planned by the German Interior Minister Heinrich Himmler, entered into an active phase. The aim of the operation was to install a radio beacon on the tallest building in New York, the Empire State Building, which was planned to be used in the future for targeting German ballistic missiles.

Back in 1941, Werner von Braun developed a project for an intercontinental ballistic missile with a range of about 4500 km. However, it was not until the beginning of 1944 that von Braun told the Führer about this project. Hitler was delighted - he demanded to immediately begin to create a prototype. After this order, German engineers at the Peenemünde center conducted round-the-clock work on the design and assembly of an experimental rocket. The A-9 / A-10 two-stage ballistic missile America was ready at the end of December 1944. It was equipped with liquid-jet engines, the weight reached 90 tons, and the length was thirty meters. An experimental launch of the rocket took place on 8 on January 1945 of the year; after seven seconds of flying, the A-9 / A-10 exploded in mid-air. Despite the failure, the “missile baron” continued to work on the “America” project.

The Elster mission ended in failure - the FBI spotted a radio broadcast from the U-1230 submarine, and a raid began on the coast of the Gulf of Man. The spies were divided and separately reached New York, where they were arrested by the FBI in early December. German agents were tried by the US military tribunal and sentenced to death, but after the war, US President Truman overturned the sentence.

After the loss of Himmler’s agents, the “America” plan was on the verge of collapse, because it was still necessary to find a solution for the most accurate guidance of a hundred-ton mass missile, which should hit the target after a flight of five thousand kilometers. Goering decided to go as simple as possible - he ordered Otto Skorzeny to create a detachment of suicide pilots. The final launch of experimental A-9 / A-10 took place in January 1945. It is believed that this was the first manned flight; There is no documentary evidence of this, but according to this version, Rudolf Schroeder took the place in the rocket cabin. True, the attempt ended in failure - ten seconds after takeoff, the rocket caught fire and the pilot died. According to the same version, the data on the manned flight incident are still classified as “secret”.

Further experiments "rocket baron" interrupted the evacuation to the south of Germany.

[Egen]

Quote: hort

Operation Elster

Thanks Horst , I have not heard about this before. Well done all the same Germans were, I must admit. In the matter of technology. But as scouts, ours are still better :)
I dug up a couple more links about the operation:
http://www.orgdosug.ru/pub.php?pid=2746&cid=327
http://www.itishistory.ru/1t/3_reix_26.php

[Hort]

yes not at all :) only I Hort and I have nothing to do with that little Fritz)))))

Yes, I think ours would probably be able to install a beacon :)

[Egen]

Quote: hort

yes there is nothing :) only I Hort

oh, sorry! , accidentally described! You see, they don’t give work, radishes, to talk calmly with people! :)) And what are you talking about, what specific little one? :)

[Hort]

yes they had Horst Wessel - a sort of gavroche of Nazi sourdough)

[Egen]

Quote: hort

Horst Wessel - a sort of nazi sourdough gavroche

I immediately thought about him, but I think suddenly I don’t know anyone :) But, quite famous (although little-known - because there is nothing special :)), the person, however, ended badly :)))

[Hort]

well, he’s generally famous for being killed)

[Denis]

Quote: hort

A-9 / A-10 America’s two-stage ballistic missile was ready at the end of December 1944. It was equipped with liquid-jet engines, weight reached 90 tons, and the length was thirty meters. The experimental launch of the rocket took place on January 8, 1945; after seven seconds of flight, the A-9 / A-10 exploded in the air. Despite the failure, the "rocket baron" continued to work on the project

Late, no miracle weapon would have saved them
Even if it had been brought to the mind that it was not easy to work for more than one day and gouged New York, then the world would have lost nothing. And so that they could play a significant role, they had to be fired in the number of artillery shells

[night1313]

Teleportation is like landing aliens. Rather, if only Germany had matured at the state border in 5-10 years, they were ready for such a turn, or were preparing. The morale of the nation would be enough, not the French, sorry (the European will understand the European), there were also their own Jews and Negroes, so who and for what would be a fight. The issue of army science and the preparation of the officer corps. Sooner was our option, maybe a little with less loss.
PS I read at the time of memoirs of German generals about the landing in Sicily, the Allies had enough of a brothel and friendly fire.

[Egen]

Quote: Corsair5912

German submariners repeatedly secretly landed on the eastern coast of the United States and there were no difficulties with the capture of the bridgehead by the Germans.

Duc, dear Nicholas , so secretly and with 1 submarines, and judging by their films, those reconnaissance groups even doused the children :) It’s quite another matter - the transfer of troops and the holding of the bridgehead, just like in Normandy - here the strength of the American fleet and even the national guard would be enough, because the Germans never really had nothing to transfer even a couple of divisions with provision and naval protection to such a distance, not to mention the supply of troops, the protection of communications and the fact that even one English fleet (especially if it had not transferred the Princes to Singapore) would have whole caravan n has sunk when leaving the French ports. So the odds are 0.
And in the rest of 100%, you're right

[Corsair5912]

Egen
Duc, dear Nicholas , so secretly and with 1 submarines, and judging by their films, those reconnaissance groups even doused the children :) It’s quite another matter - the transfer of troops and the holding of the bridgehead, just like in Normandy - here the strength of the American fleet and even the national guard would be enough, because the Germans never really had nothing to transfer even a couple of divisions with provision and naval protection to such a distance, not to mention the supply of troops, the protection of communications and the fact that even one English fleet (especially if it had not transferred the Princes to Singapore) would have whole caravan n has sunk when leaving the French ports. So the odds are 0.
And in the rest of 100%, you're right

Dear Eugene. If Hitler in 1940, after the capture of France, set Germany the task of capturing England, and then the United States, the Germans would not have to strain too much. For the transfer of troops to the Germans, the ships and transports of ALL Europe that were at their disposal were quite enough.
England did not have enough troops in the metropolis to confront the Germans and their allies, and there was nothing to say about the United States, their untrained troops, who had no combat experience, armored vehicles and aircraft, would have scattered from the German army like rabbits.
In 1944, almost the entire German army was on the Eastern Front, but this did not affect the success of the "allies", who had an overwhelming numerical and technical superiority over the Germans.

[Egen]

Quote: Corsair5912

Dear Eugene. If Hitler had an 1940 year, after the capture of France, set Germany the task of capturing England, and then the United States, the Germans would not have to particularly strain

Ah, duck, after England! This is a completely different matter! But, as I wrote above, it still would not work, because it took time to replenish losses and preparation, and the Yankees would not have been idle, they are not fools, and even managed to transfer the battleships and Lexington from P-Harbor and sink the poor Tirpitz :) Another question, what would you do then Japanese :)

[cdrt]

This is purely hypothetical: how many months would the Wehrmacht take to win if he received a bridgehead on the US coast?

Even hypothetically - for transportation it is necessary to destroy the entire US fleet and provide cover from all submarines of the US fleet, and all US air forces.

With such assumptions, one can probably assume that the US army itself will scatter or annihilate (these are all approximately equally probable events ).
Then the time until victory over the USA is probably 3-4 months

To make it faster, it is already necessary for the Germans to capture the USA by landing air divisions of tank divisions (in principle, an event with the same probability ).

[Corsair5912]

Quote: cdrt

This is purely hypothetical: how many months would the Wehrmacht take to win if he received a bridgehead on the US coast?
Even hypothetically - for transportation it is necessary to destroy the entire US fleet and provide cover from all submarines of the US fleet, and all US air forces.
Sha landing tank divisions with an airborne landing (in principle, an event with the same probability ).

The Germans would not have required any effort to seize the bridgehead on the Atlantic coast of the United States, there was not a single fortified area or any serious concentration of troops.
There was no need to cover the landing and the destruction of the US fleet, in those days there were no satellites, and finding the fleet in the ocean without knowing its course was problematic.
2-3 German divisions and a couple of German tank and air regiments would be enough to defeat the American army, and their own German fleet would be enough for their delivery.
Until 1939, the United States had only light tanks that could not withstand the German and did not have fighter and attack aircraft. Http://www.istorya.ru/book/ww2/71.php

[wow]

I think no more than 3-4 months. Of which a month would be spent on the transfer and concentration of forces and means.

[Per se.]

Quote: hort

it is a pity that the Yankees did not feel the nuances of war on their territory.

This could have happened if the Japanese had planned the main attack not on Midway, but on the Aleutian Islands, followed by an invasion of Alaska. Alas, the Aleutian Islands were just a distraction. Alaska, Canada, is the path that the imperial army could take to victory, a possible victory over the Yankees, do not spray the Japanese forces on hundreds and thousands of islands in the Pacific Ocean, wasting time and losing in the military-economic confrontation with the United States. As for the Germans, they had no time for ground operations in America, but the Japanese, most likely, they would have thrown their sabotage troops to help from the submarines, the Japanese landed in Alaska.

[ed65b]

Good article. It proves once again that mass production, albeit not of high quality technology, allows the destruction of high-tech devices. A worthy adversary was with us. It is pleasant to realize that we defeated the greatest army of the world at that time, that we should even more respect those few surviving veterans.

[Vadivak]

Quote: ed65b

A worthy adversary was with us.

If it were not for the Red Army, the Germans would have put into operation the boats of the 21st and 23rd series, and then the Yankees and the British had a hard time, a domestic analogue based on the 21st series of the S-99 submarine became part of the composition in May 1956. speed qualities and cruising range at full speed submarine pr. 617 has no equal in the domestic submarine fleet.

Thanks Oleg

[Santa Fe]

And here's another topic:

"Goliath" - The world's first, ultra-long-wave radio station. It was built in Germany near the city of Kalbe in 1943 to coordinate the actions of the German "wolf packs" (communication with submarines at a distance of up to 4000 kilometers). At the beginning of 1945, the station was captured by the Americans, but with the division of Germany into zones of influence, it moved to the Soviet Union. In 1946, the station was dismantled, and all remaining in the old place of the building were destroyed. For three years, the trophy was stored in communication depots near Leningrad, until in 1949 a decision was made to restore the station in the floodplain of the Kudmy River in the Nizhny Novgorod Region.

All systems of the radio station were restored in three years, and on December 27, 1952 it went on the air.

In the early 1960s, Goliath was included in the spacecraft surveillance system.

Since 2001, the station has been inactive due to repairs.

On September 30, 2003, she again took up combat duty. Included in the Beta time network.

The Goliath transmitting antenna consists of 3 umbrella parts located around three supports, which are steel pipes 210 meters high. The antenna angles are mounted on trellised masts 170 meters high, located at the tops of regular hexagons.

The height of the Goliath masts compared to the car. Enchanting spectacle

[Santa Fe]

View from the top of the mast

[Santa Fe]

And this is a similar system, the 43rd communications center of the Russian Navy (Vileyka, Belarus)

[Vadivak]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Goliath - the world's first ultra-long-wave radio station

Yes, many miracles the Germans for the war riveted the series XXVIIB "Seehund" (ultra-small). It was equipped with a car diesel engine for surface movement, due to which it had a significant cruising range. Immersion depth - up to 50 m; minimum dive time - 5s; seaworthiness - up to 4 points. Boats of this type were assembled in shipyards from three completely finished sections. Golovnaya was launched in September 1944, built before the end of the war. 1351 units were ordered, but 285 were actually completed, of which 137 were accepted by the fleet (according to other sources, from 23 to 67). Since January 1945, they actively participated in hostilities. The Seehunds were part of the 312 K flotilla based at Eimeiden (Holland). They made 142 access to the sea and sank 9 ships and ships of the enemy.

[Vadivak]

Type XIV (transport) German submarine tankers of the XIV series (total built for 2MB 10 units) (colloquially “milchkuh” - “dairy cows”) with their own displacement in 1932 tons took on board up to seven hundred tons of diesel fuel for refueling combat submarines and could get away from the base for more than fourteen thousand miles

[Corsair]

Quote: Vadivak

Type XIV (transport) German submarine tankers of the XIV series

XX1 Series:
Above-water - 1621 t; underwater - 1819 t; 76,7x8x6,32 m; 2 diesel / 2 + 2 ED, 4000 / 4400 + 226 hp .; 15,6 / 17,2 knot .; 253 t of solarium; 15 500 (10) / 340 (5) miles. Ek. 57 people 2x2 – 20-mm or 30-mm, 6 – 533-mm TA (6 nasal - 23 torpedoes).
The most advanced submarines of the Second World War and one of the most revolutionary projects in the history of shipbuilding. The design decision was made in April 1943 after abandoning work on the XVIII series submarines with combined-cycle turbines. New boats were developed on their basis, but with the replacement of the experimental power plant with a traditional diesel-electric one with a sharply increased battery capacity, due to which the XXI series (and being its smaller analogue of the XXIII series) received the informal name "Electroboot" in the fleet. The concept of the project provided for new boats the opportunity to be in a submerged position throughout the entire trip, without ever floating to the surface.

Double hull; lightweight hull and wheelhouse guard - a new streamlined shape, with a minimum of protruding parts; the sturdy case up to 28 – 31 mm thick in the middle part had a cross-section in the form of a figure-eight. Working immersion depth - 135 m, maximum - 200 m; minimum diving time - 18s. Rowing ED worked on the screw through a reduction gear. In addition to them, there were two low-power ED “sneaking”, providing a silent 6-ties. underwater course. To ensure the operation of diesel engines, the project provided for the presence of a “snorkel”. The armament included only nasal TAs with a quick reload system - theoretically, the XXI series submarines could release the entire ammunition within half an hour. Instead of 6 torpedoes in the vehicles, they could take 12 min TMA. Developed artillery weapons were abandoned, limiting themselves to 2x2 30-mm machine guns (due to the unavailability of the latter, most boats went into operation with the 2x2 20-mm) in streamlined turrets inscribed in the logging contours. All boats received hydro - and radar equipment.

The boat construction method, which provided for their assembly from eight prefabricated sections, was also advanced. This allowed to reduce the construction time of one submarine to 176 days and significantly reduce labor costs. An order for the first 270 units was issued to three 6.11.1943 shipyards with a deadline of 1945 in the middle, and a total of 1944 was ordered by the end of 828. Before the surrender of Germany, 121 PL., Another 11 (U-2532, U-2547, U-3045, U-3046, U-3047, U-3050, U-3051, U-3531, U-3532, U -3533, U-3534) were destroyed at the outbuilding walls after launching. After passing the tests, many boats had to return to the shipyards to eliminate "childhood diseases", which significantly delayed their final preparedness, so the only U-2511 that went on a combat trip.
After the war, the surviving boats of this series were transferred to the Allied fleets. In the USSR, a boat of this series was scrapped in 1973.

Clickable Image:

[Volkhov]

Democracy is a civilization of lies, if it is written that the kriegsmarine has died, it means that it dominates the seas - it’s more specific about modernity, otherwise the simple mirror of the articles gives only the background of the situation.

[FunkschNNX]

Really "cheap and cheerful", Liberty drowned without the participation of the Germans. But they did their job.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Фкенщь13

Liberty drowned and without the participation of the Germans. But they did their job.

America of Russia gave the ship !!!! Cha Cha Cha !!!! Huge wheels, but terribly quiet course !!!!

How pleased the Soviet sailors, having received from the Americans a brand new steamboat "Valery Chkalov." The ship, of course, is not handsome, but what a big and roomy one! The joy was short-lived - a few days later the steamer collapsed in half during a storm. Fortunately, there were no casualties - both parts of the hull remained buoyant and were towed back to the US shores. The Americans apologized for the ridiculous setup and ... handed the new steamer Valery Chkalov to the sailors

Altogether, according to Lend-Lease in the USSR, 40 Liberty was handed over. Our sailors with a smile recall the process of obtaining foreign equipment: “Hello, captain. Here are the keys. Small ones from boxes, large ones from doors. Goodbye, good luck! ” On this the acceptance process ended - the ship got up for loading

However, the quality of Liberty's construction improved over time - despite their "one-year" resource, many of them worked until the end of the 1960s. The same Aristotle Onassis made his fortune using "Liberty" (he bought 600 ships of this type)

One of the three surviving "Liberty" - "Jeremy O'Brien" still rolls tourists around the harbor of San Francisco

[cdrt]

"Liberty"

By the way - the technical creation that brought for the UN victory in WWII is probably no less than the T-34

[IsailoR]

Currently, the Yankees are stepping on the previous German rake.
They are developing an expensive ultramodern weapon, standing like 10 copies of conventional weapons.
Super expensive F-35s, promising infantry vehicles, hand-held infantry systems, combat robots, etc.
Only now, only one soldier will be able to shoot with an expensive machine gun, while 10 enemy soldiers can shoot conventional ones for the same amount.
While one fancy F-35 solves one problem, 5 conventional enemy planes solve five problems in DIFFERENT places where the F-35 has not had time, etc.
(price comparison is figurative, may not correspond to exact ratios, but the principle itself indicates)

[Mozart]

The tasks are different. For world war, the Americans may well rivet and cheap machines, and cheap aircraft. For local wars, high-tech weapons are much more effective.

[cdrt]

The tasks are different. For world war, the Americans may well rivet and cheap machines, and cheap aircraft. For local wars, high-tech weapons are much more effective.

By the way, absolutely true.
When preparing for the Great War, Americans and attack aircraft cheaply designed the A-37 for example, and F-5 fighters, and even made machine guns for backward allies.
And when it came down to colonial wars, it’s easier to make a super-plane, which needs 2-3 thousand pieces for its Air Force and all allies, than to design a plane that can be produced by tens and hundreds of thousands in the case of Bad Boom.
The USSR reached the same point, but 20-30 years later than the USA

[12061973]

they have a different principle, such as drones, of which there are a lot of modifications, and constantly upgraded cr.

[sevtrash]

They create truly new weapons, work out new technologies. F35 is important not only in itself, maybe not so much, but as the development and development of new technologies in avionics, weapons, aerodynamics.
F35 is a solution to the strategic task of developing aviation technologies, and not just creating a new aircraft. They have money for it and they are ahead of the rest, most likely they will continue.
The Germans created magnificent and advanced models of equipment - Me262, electric bots, Tiger, cruise and ballistic missiles, developed anti-aircraft missiles, etc. But there were not enough resources and time to fine-tune some of the samples, their production in sufficient quantities.
Americans are doing everything right. Very expensive, yes, but, for example, no one has created an alternative to the 20-year-old F22.

[Egen]

Quote: IsailoR

Currently, the Yankees are stepping on the previous German rake. They are developing expensive ultramodern weapons, standing like 10 copies of conventional weapons.

Yes, probably not ... Here the Chinese are on the second path. But here it is necessary to take into account the mobilization capabilities of the US industry. This is now F-35 - one thing, and they no longer need - now; and if the Yankees can pull themselves up like in BB2 and rivet them like Liberty - then it's shitty :(

[cdrt]

Currently, the Yankees are stepping on the previous German rake.
They are developing an expensive ultramodern weapon, standing like 10 copies of conventional weapons.
Super expensive F-35s, promising infantry vehicles, hand-held infantry systems, combat robots, etc.
Only now, only one soldier will be able to shoot with an expensive machine gun, while 10 enemy soldiers can shoot conventional ones for the same amount.
While one fancy F-35 solves one problem, 5 conventional enemy planes solve five problems in DIFFERENT places where the F-35 has not had time, etc.
(price comparison is figurative, may not correspond to exact ratios, but the principle itself indicates)



F-35 is still planned to produce 2500 pcs. This is, as it were, more than all military aviation in the Russian Federation (including helicopters).

[Su-9]

It is planned to produce - and will produce - 2 different concepts. This number in 2.5t will constantly decrease.
F-35 - a peacetime aircraft for local conflicts. This is generally understandable even to NATO.
But the equipment needs to be updated, on f16 you won’t last another 50 years, and the lobby is crushing - buy a new plane ...

[avt]

Quote: ed65b

Good article. It proves once again that mass production, albeit not of high quality technology, allows the destruction of high-tech devices. A worthy adversary was with us.

That's what the Germans are a worthy enemy - I won't argue, I will add that it is deadly. I don’t share the enthusiasm for the article, this is not an analytical article, but quite a GLAVPURovskaya, for the Remchuk military review, and then they may think about it. What's this ? Naglo-Saxons with the corpses and iron of the Germans blockaded? Now about the "high-tech" devices. Yes, the Germans made high-quality boats. But the author was wondering - what and for what tactics of use? They took the UB-111 of 1917 as a basis and, in principle, the boats were "diving" even an attack, then initially they worked out from the surface, not to mention the transitions. And this despite the fact that our snorkel was still tested in the First World War as an experiment. Doenitz, fortunately for the Angles, was preparing for a war that he lost in the 18th century, but used a massive attack in flocks, but technically the Germans adjusted to the Angles only when they began to rivet the XXe series actually achieved technical superiority, but thank God it was too late. tactics of joint work with the Luftwaffe generally keep quiet! A separate song - Doenitz negotiated joint actions with the commanders of the units, on personal contacts. So in technical terms, after the shock of defeat in the "fat years", the Naglo-Saxons made the right conclusions and outplayed the Germans in technical terms and in terms of tactical and strategic, as evidenced by the huge losses of the Germans.

[Vladimirets]

Quote: avt

What's this ? Arrogant Saxons corpses and iron blockages Germans?

But the truth is, +. And then only stupid Russians could fight in bulk.

[ed65b]

Based on the article, the Kingsmarines lost to the stupidly superior forces of the surface fleet and enemy aircraft. Cheap, not technologically advanced, but in large numbers, armed vessels erased the submarine fleet.

[knn54]

Eduard: The Allied military industry increased the output of FAST escort ships, carrier-based aircraft based on SMALL aircraft carriers and land-based long-range bombers. ONLY relying on QUANTITATIVE and QUALITY superiority in armaments (including improved radar facilities), the Allies were able, within a few weeks, to completely destroy 40 percent of the Nazi submarine fleet. AT THIS, the German submarine is out of date. For too long she remained, in essence, a surface vessel, which was submerged only in isolated cases, in order to remain invisible during an attack or evading pursuit. True, a snorkel device was developed that allowed the boat to ventilate the compartments and recharge the batteries during patrol while in submerged position. However, the Schnerkel has received a WIDE distribution in the German submarine fleet ONLY since March 1944. And ONLY from September it was installed on all submarines of obsolete types. And the "snorkel" in itself did not give an adequate response to the actions of the allied aviation and anti-submarine groups of ships, because the submarine’s course remained slow. ONLY by the end of the war, the Germans developed submarines that could go under water for hours at a speed exceeding the capabilities of the destroyer, carry out torpedo attacks from a safe depth and load almost twice as many torpedoes aboard a conventional submarine. And a very small number of new submarines managed to participate in military operations.
PS The underground members of France and Norway also contributed, reporting on exits from the bases of German ships.

[Shuriken]

Quote: knn54

The underground members of France and Norway also contributed, reporting the exits from the bases of German ships.

Workers from the French shipyards also contributed by defeating their colleagues in Kiel in the "social competition" in terms of repairing Kriegsmarine boats ...

[Santa Fe]

Quote: knn54

and QUALITY superiority in armaments (including advanced radar systems)

The Germans had ready answers to this: anti-radars, snorkels, Electrobots

Quote: knn54

Allied war industry

Tell me straight: the US military industry
Without the help of the States, with their monstrous resources and industry, the British fleet would have died at the beginning of the war.

Quote: knn54

Allies were able, within a few weeks, to completely destroy 40 percent of the Nazi underwater flo

Operation Regenbogen - when did the Germans sink their boats on the last day of the war?)))

And so allies pulled so? It was necessary immediately in 1942, 40% of the Nazi submarine fleet to sink))) in a few weeks))))

Quote: knn54

And ONLY from September it was installed on all submarines of obsolete types.

Still, the Germans all resources went to the Eastern Front

Quote: knn54

ONLY by the end of the war the Germans developed submarines,

Some slow Germans)))

[avt]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

The Germans had ready answers to this: anti-radars, snorkels, Electrobots

If they were ready, this would not be the answer. The Germans were late, to our common happiness.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Tell me straight: the US military industry
Without the help of the States, with their monstrous resources and industry, the British fleet would have died at the beginning of the war.

And who actually disputes the obvious?

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Still, the Germans all resources went to the Eastern Front

In addition to those that went for a melt, even diesel fuel was not plagued by tanks - they also drove synthetic substitutes on gasoline.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Some slow Germans)))

The industry gave high-quality boats, those that Denets ordered - "diving" an improved version of the times of the end of the 1st World War, but when they were simply driven under water, not even allowing them to leave the positions from Brest and Saint Nazaire and almost all their technical tricks on the old boats did not bring the desired effect when they could not go out on convoys - then, quite quickly, they made qualitatively new ships of the XX series and made a rather large reserve without skimping on funds and resources.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: avt

The Germans were late, to our common happiness.

Or maybe the Allies a little late for three years?)))

1942 results:
1149 sunk ships + aircraft carrier, 3 cruisers (including "Edinburgh" with gold) and 13 destroyers at the cost of the loss of 92 U-bots

Great exchange. A couple of years at that pace and Britain cront

Quote: avt

they didn’t even exhaust diesel fuel on tanks — they also drove synthetic substitutes on gasoline.

The diesel fuel was also surrogate

Using the Fischer-Tropsch cycle, you can get any fuel, at least a solarium, at least high-octane gasoline. absolutely no difference - just change the catalysts

Quote: avt

- then quite quickly they made qualitatively new ships of the XX series and made a rather big reserve without stinting on funds and resources.

Then what is the problem?
Maybe the Yankees riveted thousands of anti-submarine ships of various classes during this time?

[avt]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

1942 results:
1149 sunk ships + aircraft carrier, 3 cruisers (including "Edinburgh" with gold) and 13 destroyers at the cost of the loss of 92 U-bots

Great exchange. A couple of years at that pace and Britain cront

And who said that in the Admiralty the old women of Britain were geniuses? When did they introduce the normal convoy system? They scored a bolt at the beginning of the war on their own blood acquired in 1 World experience! And only then, with the use of new technical means, they drove the chances under water.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Using the Fischer-Tropsch cycle, you can get any fuel, at least a solarium, at least high-octane gasoline. absolutely no difference - just change the catalysts

And the Germans didn’t know the morons and the tanks went on gasoline like that. Only after the surrender, the "Leopards" switched to diesel fuel.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Then what is the problem?
Maybe the Yankees riveted thousands of anti-submarine ships of various classes during this time?

Well no ! Everything is much more prosaic. We took Berlin. That's how they stayed on the slipways, but in the harbors, only one went out to sea. And yet Marinesco with shots to the Hansans podsuropil.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: avt

When did they introduce the normal convoy system?

A couple of years before the events under discussion.
By 1942, organized convoys were already running like clockwork - what was the serial number of the Arctic convoy, defeated in the summer of 1942?

and the result is 1149 ships and 6,2 million tons of sunken cargo

Quote: avt

They scored a bolt at the beginning of the war on their own

Yes, yes, for three years they walked like suckers, did not notice that their Germans killed in thousands)))

Quote: avt

using new technical means, drove the chances under water

What new technical tools helped to drive chances under water?

Quote: avt

morons Germans didn’t know this and tanks so on gasoline and drove

You didn’t know about this when you wrote "They didn't even use diesel fuel on the tanks - they rode on gasoline and synthetic substitutes."

But the Germans knew the Fischer-Torpsh cycle. Therefore, we rode both on gasoline and diesel fuel. Any type of hydrocarbon fuel can be synthesized.

Quote: avt

Everything is much more prosaic. We took Berlin

And the turning point in the Battle of the Atlantic happened 2 years earlier, in the spring of 1943.

Reason: the Allies were finally able to deploy a sufficient number of anti-submarine ships and aircraft. But the Germans were left with old boats - they didn’t have time to build new Electrobots, all resources were thrown to the East

[avt]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

By 1942, organized convoys were already running like clockwork - what was the serial number of the Arctic convoy, defeated in the summer of 1942? wink

Well, for a change, look how many chances there were on the submarines then and actually how they killed the 17th.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

What new technical tools helped to drive chances under water?

Basting on the woods - start over ... Alas, please, re-read it yourself, about aviation, radars, etc.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Any type of hydrocarbon fuel can be synthesized.

Here EVERYTHING, from the reports of the People’s Commissariat of Defense to Müller Guildenbrat, wrote about the fuel supply structure, saying that the diesel fuel was going to the fleet, but Oleg’s pepper was not a decree.

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Reason: the Allies were finally able to deploy a sufficient number of anti-submarine ships and aircraft. But the Germans were left with old boats - they didn’t have time to build new Electrobots, all resources were thrown to the East

Yah !? Does it mean that we took Berlin does not mean that the Germans on the eastern front did not rest and did not have time?

Quote: avt

That's how they stayed on the slipways, but in the harbors, only one went out to sea. And yet Marinesco with shots to the Hansans podsuropil. laughing

[Santa Fe]

Quote: avt

Well, for a change, look how many chances there were on the submarines then and actually how they killed the 17th.

The number of German submarines in service on the first day of each month of the war (including losses):
1942: from 266 in January to 395 in December.

Rozultat - 1149 vessels, 6,2 sunk million tons of cargo

Quote: avt

about aviation, radars, etc.

And what has changed here compared to 1942?

no new technical "super-means" were invented. The whole difference is in the number of radars, ships and aircraft in 1942 and 1944

Quote: avt

saying that solarium fleet was

We are just talking about methods for producing diz. fuel.

[knn54]

Oleg.
1. "Antiradars" at the Germans on the submarine also appeared by the end of the war. And PLO aircraft easily detected snorkel breakers.
2.About sluggishness. Physicists and chemists who remained in Germany were mostly involved in the laboratories of the army and the Air Force. PLUS self-confidence of the commander of the Navy, Grand Admiral Redel. Therefore, the development of fleet technology was slow. ONLY AT THE END of 1943, Admiral Doenitz managed to create a scientific department similar to the Scientific Council created by Admiral King in the United States.
Submarines of the XXIII series were intended for warfare in the coastal zone, and used in the relatively shallow Black and Mediterranean Seas and were designed in 1943. By February 1945, when the first submarine of the XXIII series came out for combat patrol in the British Isles, about fifty boats of this series were already launched. The first boat of the XXI (OCEAN) series came into operation in March 1945.
3. It was necessary immediately in 1942, 40% of the Nazi submarine fleet to sink.
To install the snorkel, Doenitz had to recall many submarines from patrolling. Therefore, until 1944, large areas of the Atlantic turned out to be free of submarines. And the main center of gravity was moved to the north (region of Norway) to fight the polar convoys.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: knn54

The Germans also had antiradars on their submarines by the end of the war.

Is it really so ?!

Radar detector FuMB1 "Metoks" appeared in July 1942. The use of FuMB1 allowed for six months to deprive the British anti-submarine line of effectiveness

Since the end of the summer of 1943, a new station FuMB9 "Vanze" was put into production, which recorded radiation in the range of 1,3-1,9 m. In November 1943, the station FuMB10 "Borkum" appeared, which controlled the range of 0,8-3,3 m ...

From April 1944, they were replaced by the FuMB24 "Fleige" station

The Germans reacted to the appearance of American flying boats with radar stations APS-3, APS-4 (wavelength 3,2 cm) by creating the FuMB25 "Müke" receiver (range 2-4 cm). In May 1944, "Flayge" and "Mücke" were combined into the FuMB26 "Tunis" complex.

Quote: knn54

who remained in Germany were mostly involved in the laboratories of the army and the air force

What are we talking about. All resources of Germany were oriented to the East

[cdrt]

SPEED escort ships

What kind of ships are these?
Corvettes, frigates or escort destroyers?
They all seemed to give a maximum of 20-21 knots.
Slower - these are already armed fishing trawlers only

[cdrt]

Cheap, not technologically advanced, but in large numbers, armed vessels erased the submarine fleet.


Where is the logic?
1. Cheap and low-tech - mutually conflicting qualities.
2. Liberty could not erase anyone. They could simply "steal" the victory of the submariners, making it a defeat (there are simply more goals than you manage to knock out)
3. Far from only numbers. Rather, tactics, operational art and strategy. Because until 1943, so many PLO forces simply did not know how to apply systemically.
By 1943, the PLO methodology was worked out to the level of the clockwork.
In 1944, virtually any boat leaving the Atlantic was doomed.
A chain of radio interception-decryption-basic aviation with radars - hunter-killer groups (again radars, sonar) - escort aircraft carriers - PLO convoy ships attacked almost any number of boats on a convoy for suicide for submariners.


Well, the article is more like fiction than some kind of analysis.
For example, when there appeared a massive working centimeter detector
range? And when is the centimeter radar?

It’s even a shame - there were gorgeous articles by this author.

[Egen]

Quote: avt

And this despite the fact that even our snorkel in the form of an experiment in the First World experienced

Yes, but each technically more complex and unfinished detail - it is understandable to increase the risk, increase the time, etc. And there was no need for it at the beginning of the war. Another thing is that the Germans were on the occasion, on the fact of the need, and did not implement it in advance - this is bad.

[avt]

Quote: Egen

Yes, but each technically more complex and unfinished detail - it’s understandable that there is an increase in risk,

You do not understand, but a new technical solution always carries a risk of imperfection. A striking example is contactless torpedoes for breaking ridges, that the Germans and the Amers had a bunch of failures until they brought it. But I was talking about something else! preparing for the PAST war.

Quote: knn54

For too long she remained, in essence, a surface vessel, which was submerged only in isolated cases, in order to remain invisible during an attack or evading pursuit.

And when they were driven under water, it immediately became clear the difference between "diving" and actually "submarine", which the Germans will embody in the XX series. Until their appearance, almost ALL the tricks of the Germans in technical terms were the answer, in fact they were catching up with the Angles, which caused huge losses to us and the Naglo-Saxons to our delight.

[Egen]

Quote: avt

But I said something else! The Germans were preparing for the past war.

Well, and who - to the future? The USSR or something with the airborne corps: ((Or Americans with the B-17 of the 1934 model., I’m generally silent about the British biplanes. Here, on land, the Germans even had the paratroopers and aircraft more modern - and that’s because they learned in Spain. The Yankees just realized faster, but they also had the groundwork for the development of science and industry in general, which allowed them to quickly switch to war relatively quickly, for example, the same tanks with car engines. somehow rockets and planes, not lick whether with civilians.

[domokl]

A beautifully written article. It is read as fiction. With respect to the enemy, the author writes. The Germans are noble warriors. And at sea too. And the victory over such an enemy is really honorable.
And everyone appreciated the strength of the submarine fleet. That is why the leading countries have such a powerful submarine fleet. They can sink the ships and they will deliver a nuclear strike and the borders will be closed to the enemy.

[Straus_zloy]

We will build ships faster than the enemy can sink them. We will DAILY launch two main-class combat ships (aircraft carrier, battleship, cruiser, destroyer, or submarine) and put into operation three vehicles each


And after that, the USSR is still trying to blame that the Germans were thrown into corpses, regardless of the losses?

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Straus_zloy

We will DAILY launch two main-class combat ships (aircraft carrier, battleship, cruiser, destroyer, or submarine) and put into operation three vehicles each

Is it eminent, sir, filling up with equipment and filling up with corpses are completely different things

The first option leads to a quick, bloodless victory - the adversary is simply not able to oppose anything and quickly dies

[Straus_zloy]

And there were no people on American ships, right sir? They did not die after the attack of submarines?

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Straus_zloy

And there were no people on American ships, right sir?

Were

Quote: Straus_zloy

They did not die after the attack of submarines?

No, they remained alive. And the ships remained intact.

This is the whole point of "overwhelming technique" - the enemy simply does not have time to react - as soon as he tries to attack someone. they begin to beat him from all sides.

The method is good, but it requires an absolute superiority in resources and industry. Which, however, the States demonstrated

[Straus_zloy]

the flock says literally:

We will build ships faster than the enemy can sink them

this does not mean that the ships remained intact

No one denies America's superiority in resources and industry. He was opposed by the superiority of Germany in technical development. Otherwise, it would not have to "fill up with equipment" (idiot tactics), but it would be enough to release more high-tech submarine killers into the sea.

I do not see any fundamental difference between "filling with meat or equipment". Maybe someday, when the ships become automatic.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Straus_zloy

this does not mean that the ships remained intact

The statistics are pretty well known, for example:
out of 175 American destroyers "Fletcher" 22 were killed in battle
out of 2710 "Liberty" killed 300

War is war and losses will be there anyway. Another thing is that the Yankees were crushed by technology with the Kriegsmarine and the Imperial Japanese fleet - neither Japan nor Germany simply could not oppose them. For example, the loss of personnel in the United States and Japan are described by a ratio of 1: 9

Quote: Straus_zloy

He was opposed by the superiority of Germany in technical development.

Nothing like this. Suffice it to recall who invented the anti-boot suit, the Mk.37 fire control system, or the nuclear bomb

Analog Computer Ford Mk.I, 1938
Weight 1360 kg. Used in ship control systems

ps / the fact that out of 2710 liberty "only" 300 died - this does not mean that German boats fought poorly - "Liberty" was built to replace those British ships that died in 1939-1943, and there they were killed a couple of thousand

[cdrt]

Nothing like this. Suffice it to recall who invented the anti-boot suit, the Mk.37 fire control system, or the nuclear bomb

+100500
For a real victory in WWII, the radars, artillery computers, radio fuses, and magnificent aircraft engines developed in the World Bank, the USA, meant much more than almost all the achievements of the "gloomy German genius".
The same applies to the conveyor production of transports, tankers, destroyers, escort ships, aircraft carriers (and not only escort ships, but essentially Essexes).

Well ... Atomic bomb + B-29

[Straus_zloy]

do you really have to list things whose prototypes were invented invented in Nazi Germany, and which we still use?

More than one scientific work can be written about the scientific developments of Germany in the 30's. Here are just a few of them: the discovery of nuclear fission (with which discoverer Otto Gahn shared with his former colleague Lisa Meitner, who, in turn, brought the discovery to the Americans), the creation of ballistic missiles (their creator - Werner von Braun later became director of the Center NASA’s space flights, led the development of Saturn launch vehicles and Apollo spacecraft. It was under his leadership that a man flew to the Moon.), the invention of a jet engine, the invention of a computer (K. Zuse), the creation of electronic a microscope, an injection engine, the development of technologies for the production of artificial rubber, synthetic fuel, cruise missiles Fau -1, Faustpatron (RPG), air defense missiles (Wasserfall), 3D films, snorkel (in general, German submarines were ahead of other countries by at least a decade). .... it's so offhand.

For the first time, the idea of ​​radar came to the mind of German inventor Christian Hülsmeier, who in 1905 received a patent for a device in which the effect of reflection of radio waves was used to detect ships. In a patent issued in 1906, Hülsmeier described a method for determining the distance to a reflecting object.

The engineer proposed a two-antenna device for detecting ships at a great distance. The signal emitted by the device was reflected from the object, received back and processed accordingly. The apparatus included a radio transmitter, rotating directional antennas, a radio receiver with a light or sound indicator, which perceived waves reflected by objects. For all its imperfections, the Hülsmeier device contained the basic elements of a modern locator.

[Corsair]

Quote: cdrt

For a real victory in WWII, the radars, artillery computers, radio fuses, and magnificent aircraft engines developed in the World Bank, the USA, meant much more than almost all the achievements of the "gloomy German genius".

It’s true, but not all ... Germany didn’t have enough trivial resources and time to achieve superiority over the USA, but the Soviet Union (although I wouldn’t want to put the USSR on a par with fascist Germany, but I have to ) - pure time period ...

[cdrt]

And there were no people on American ships, right sir? They did not die after the attack of submarines?

And how many merchant seamen died on all American ships during the war years?
for the whole war - for 10 days of a good front-line operation ...

During the entire battle for the Atlantic, the British and Americans lost on merchant ships and warships: 30 people, 000 ships, 3500 ships.
The Germans - 748 submarines, 28 submariners.
And if you look over the years - in general, everything becomes clear.
The maximum losses are 1941 (this is only the World Bank) and 1942 (this is when in the USA they only created PLO for half a year).

It’s not like filling up with corpses, well, it’s completely unlike

[cdrt]

And after that, the USSR is still trying to blame that the Germans were thrown into corpses, regardless of the losses?

Where did you see the corpse throwing? Could produce a lot - produced a lot. Lost by the way, not a lot.

[Gomunkul]

... We did our best, but the slippery black death was ahead of us.

To anyone interested, I recommend reading the book by Herbert Werner "Steel Coffins. German Submarines: Secret Operations 1941-1945", a look at the same events only from the opposite side.

[Yura]

An excellent article, the influence of the economy on the result, its turn on ensuring military superiority is very well displayed. In the USSR during the Second World War, this was done in an even shorter time, which made it possible to turn the tide of events first and defeat the enemy, for which almost all the advanced industry of Europe worked, in addition to the fact that on the side of Germany many European states also took direct part in the fighting actions.

[Kars]

__________________________

[Kars]

_______________________

[Kars]

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[Kars]

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[Djozz]

"Amount, also quality!" Comrade Stalin.

[High speed]

Here analytics and materials are more serious (for those with a topic: o)
The blockade and the blockade.
Struggle on ocean-sea communications in the second world war. Belli V.I. and others. Ed. V. Bogolepov. Series `The Second World War in Research, Memories and Documents`. Moscow: Nauka, 1967. - 766, [1] p., 1 p. kart

[cdrt]

Struggle on ocean-sea communications in the second world war. Belli V.I. and others. Ed. V. Bogolepov. Series `The Second World War in Research, Memories and Documents`. Moscow: Science, 1967

Generally a super book on the topic

[Nester]

By the way, the movie "Das Boot" is quite good. About the crew of the German submarine, I advise you to look, if anyone did not.

[Hort]

I agree. But he, a dog, well, very long just :)

[Ulysses]

It’s not a sin to spend a good film on three and a half hours (director’s version).
The interior of the "Seven" and the conditions of life of German submariners have been reproduced to the smallest detail.

[avt]

Quote: Nester

By the way, the movie "Das Boot" is quite good.

A great movie !! I wrote down the full director's version of myself in the collection. And our film "Commander of the Happy Pike" is also good In general, those who go to the navy must pass an exam on the book "Overhaul", and for the submarine also on these two films.

[Djozz]

A rare film in terms of reliability, this is not a cheap Hollywood fake, such as "Brothers in Arms", "Saving Private Rain", "Inglorious Bastards" - a masterpiece of insanity!

[cdrt]

type "Brothers in Arms"

By the way, "Brothers in Arms" was actually filmed according to official documents + 2 memoir books.
As, by the way, and half of the plots of the "Pacific Ocean".

Inglourious ki is more of a parody (banter over the views of Republicans and over the Jewish "mafia" in Hollywood), you can't watch it as a movie about the war.

[cdrt]

By the way, the movie "Das Boot" is quite good. About the crew of the German submarine, I advise you to look, if anyone did not.

Good film.
Better to watch the directorial version.
But it is 300 minutes.
The main thing is not to fall asleep

It's a pity that "HMS Ulysses" was not filmed. In my opinion, the best book about the war at sea in WWII.
Could be a better movie.

[shurup]

No wonder the article. For each "Yuri Long-armed" commissioned with a creak, the Americans will answer by stamping hundreds of symmetrical answers.
The alliance of Germany with Russia is a terrible dream of the Anglo-Saxons.
As in the 2nd World War, in the case of GB, the United States, devoid of markets, sources of raw materials and, most importantly, workers from the outside, becomes a colossus with feet of clay. Push any narrow-eyed - and here it is, the death of the empire.

[lelikas]

Hundreds are unlikely, but the Virginia continues to build (10 build -30 according to plan) + carry out work on the trail. generation with construction in the 21st year.
Moreover, they are constantly upgrading their boats - so it’s too early for us to relax the rolls.

[Sobol]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Without the help of the States, with their monstrous resources and industry, the British fleet would have died at the beginning of the war.

Without the help of the States, WWII would not have begun at all. Without the help of Britain, Hitler would not have climbed into the USSR. And without the help of the USSR - both Britain and after the States would have come kirdyk.

[cdrt]

Without the help of the States, WWII would not have begun at all

.
A simple question - who started preparation for WWII before everyone else (in the form of a program for building an unprecedented fleet in size)

Hitler would not have climbed the USSR without British help

Is it like that? The WB did not give up, and did not allow itself to be captured, beat the German ally. Was this their help from Germany against the USSR?

And without the help of the USSR-and Britain and after the States kirdyk would come


Kirdyk - why?
In our reality, the Germans, even in 1940, could not land in England, and the Battle of Britain was completely lost.

But Germany and the WB + USA + all other UN countries (if without the USSR) could probably not have defeated Germany - this is a fact.
Would get something like the Cold War.

[Sobol]

There are versions that British intelligence skillfully threw to Hitler the disinformation about Stalin's plans to attack Germany. And what will happen at the moment when the Nazis will force the lamb. Thus, Britain protected itself from German landing, setting Hitler on the USSR. I don’t know how true this is, but there is no smoke without fire.

[Hort]

The answer is also simple: there is a well-founded hypothesis that the American government developed a program for overcoming the depression of the 30s. due to the great war. When comparing some factors, there is a significant share of truth in this.
About Britain: British diplomacy has long been processing Adolf on the subject of opposition to Bolshevism, besides, the "Battle of England" was very, very strange, on this many historians agree. The Germans did not really strive to win it, they only wanted to force the British to peace, and then unite. Otherwise, it would not have bombed coastal airfields and radars, but factories and warehouses in order to deprive the enemy of resources to make up for losses.
The UN was not there then :)

[pinecone]

We hacked Enigma and began to read their conversations. It brought little goodbut it increased the feeling of fear - they were everywhere, but we could not do anything about it.

The entire article is a laudatory hymn to the industrial power of the United States and the military-technical superiority of the allied PLO forces. American court historian Samuel Morison described "Battle for the Atlantic" in the same colors in his multivolume work entitled "History of the US Navy in World War II". The last of 15 volumes was published in 1962, when the fact of breaking the Enigma codes was still under strict secrecy.
In the seventies, after the expiration of a 30-year limitation period, the British began to declassify part of the archival documents of the war period, including those related to the secrets of the Enigma. Nevertheless, according to the established tradition in the official historiography of the United States and Britain, as well as in the works of most independent researchers, the significance of the above fact is in every possible way belittled, or completely hushed up. There are exceptions, but they are relatively rare. In particular, the prominent historian David Irving has repeatedly noted the outstanding role of British cryptographers in the Allied command making decisions of an operational and tactical nature.

[Djozz]

The first ones broke the "Enigma" (Riddle) by Polish mathematicians, under the wing of Polish intelligence, and passed the information on to the British.

[Ulysses]

Yes, we are aware that according to one of the versions of the "alternative history" the Polish intelligence won the Second World War.
It remains only to find out where the Polish mathematicians miraculously got Enigma, codes, and what the "Polish intelligence" was doing in Great Britain.

[cdrt]

It remains only to find out where the Polish mathematicians miraculously turned out to be Enigma, codes

Well, even Wiki is full of links - "... just pour some water ..."

and what the "Polish intelligence" was doing in Great Britain


SUDDENLY was next to her government in exile

[Santa Fe]

Quote: pinecone

We hacked Enigma and began to read their conversations. It brought slightly good, but intensified the feeling of fear - they were everywhere, but we could not do anything about it.

What bothers you?

The main catch was made 8 May 1941 city when capturing the U-110 submarine, Captain-Lieutenant Julius Lemp, who attacked the convoy OV-318. Having bombed on U-110, security vessels forced her to emerge. The captain of the destroyer HMS Bulldog went for a ram, but when he saw that the Germans were jumping overboard in a panic, he turned away in time. Having penetrated into the half-sunken boat, the boarding group found that the team did not even try to destroy secret communications. At this time, another ship lifted the surviving Germans out of the water and locked them in the hold to conceal what was happening. It was very important.

On U-110 they took: a working Enigma M3, a set of rotors, keys for April-June, encryption instructions, radiograms, magazines (personnel, navigation, signaling, radio communications), sea charts, diagrams of minefields in the North Sea and coast of France, the instruction manual for boats of the IXB type. The booty was compared to the victory in the Battle of Trafalgar, experts called it the “gift of heaven”.

The trophy, of course, is rare. But did it somehow reduce the loss of the Britons over the next couple of years?

[Ulysses]

The U-110 episode captures the myth of the professionalism of German submariners.
Starting with the actions of its commander Lemp (this is the one who "accidentally" drowned "Athenia" on the first day of the war with Great Britain) during the attack by his PLO ships, the chief engineer of the boat, who did not perform elementary actions to flood the boat (the poor fellow's Kingston blades did not turn , subversive charges in a panic and did not try to establish), a radio operator (whose duty was to destroy the Enigma and all cipher documents).
PS In the event of an emergency ascent, the German submariners did not enter into artillery duel with the enemy, resignedly surrendering.
Unlike Soviet submariners.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Ulysses

During the emergency ascent, the German submariners did not enter the artillery duel with the enemy, resignedly surrendering.

Marine history knows such cases:

... She returned along the surface, as she could not submerge due to damage. North of Perim, the boat met the English sloop "Shoreham", which urgently called for help.

The submarine had one 120-mm gun and opened fire first, hitting the sloop with a second projectile, and later it was taken to Aden for repairs.

In the meantime, the Indian sloop "Hindu" approached the place of the battle, and then the division of new English destroyers. 19-mm 120-mm and 4-102-mm guns, plus a lot of machine guns turned against the only cannon of the boat.

Captain Pelosi took the fight. He fired all the torpedoes at the destroyers Kingston, Kandahar and Khartoum, while continuing to fire the cannon. The British dodged the torpedoes, but one of the shells hit the Khartoum. Only half an hour after the start of the battle, the boat received a shell in the stern, which damaged the steering gear and wounded Pelosi.

Some time later, the "Evangelista Toricceli" cannon was destroyed by a direct hit. Having exhausted all possibilities for resistance, the captain ordered the ship to be flooded. The survivors were taken aboard the destroyer Kandahar, and Pelosi was greeted by the British officers with a military greeting. From aboard the destroyer, the Italians watched as the fire on the Khartoum continued to grow.

It ended with an explosion of ammunition and the death of a destroyer. Khartoum (1690 t, 1939 built) was considered the newest ship. The case when a submarine drowns a destroyer in artillery combat has no analogues in maritime history.

The British praised the valor of the Italian submariners. Pelosi and his senior officer in Aden were invited to an official dinner, where the commander of Khartoum was present, with whom they exchanged toasts. Then Pelosi was received as a senior naval officer in the Red Sea by Rear Admiral Murray.

In addition to the losses suffered by British ships, the British fired 700 shells and five hundred machine-gun magazines to sink one submarine. "Toricceli" went under the water with a waving Battle flag, which can only be raised in front of the enemy. Valor was appreciated, Pelonesi was awarded the highest military award of Italy "Medal D Or Al Valor Militari" - the Gold Medal for Military Valor

[Ulysses]

You give an example italian submarine , with grigsmarine, if you move away from the myths created after the war, the situation looks like this:
In the submarine forces of Germany in the crew surrendered 219 submarines, and all during the war was captured 4103 German submariners.

Not a single Soviet submarine surrendered to the enemy.

One of the most striking examples of the difference between German submariners and Soviet submarines is the exploit of Shch-408.

the crew of the submarine Shch-408 (commander - captain-lieutenant P. Kuzmin) was under water for four days, pursued by enemy anti-submarine ships. The resulting damage from continuous bombing led to the discharge of electric batteries and air poisoning. The situation was unbearable. The boat was forced to surface and accept an artillery battle with the enemy, writing one of the brightest pages in the heroic history of the Soviet submarine fleet. For more than 2 hours, submariners fought with 10 anti-submarine ships, damaging 2 of them. The boat received a lot of damage, lost speed, the submariners died near the guns and on the bridge, the water entered the sturdy hull and, when the boat began to sink, the submariners, preferring death to captivity, went down into the boat, lifting up the upper deck hatch. The boat sank to the bottom with a proudly waving naval flag. Since the time of Tsushima, this has meant: "I'm dying, but I don't give up!"

Already after the war, from the documents of German documents, it turned out that the acoustics of enemy ships heard the sounds of metal strikes for two more days: our submariners tried to fix holes, they fought for life until the last minute

[cdrt]

The professionalism of German submariners can also be judged by the sunken tonnage per sunken submarine. Count, at the same time compare with the British, Americans and ours. The data is all known in principle.

[Boa kaa]

Dear Oleg! Thank you so much for the article. He had the honor of serving in the submarine at one time. For people in the subject, this article is like a sea breeze: it refreshes memory, makes you see the dialectics of the struggle of the PL - the forces of PLO, the role of the economy in achieving victory. You definitely have a good, easy syllable, and literary data. But what are the photos! There is analytics (though not enough), which does not burden the article. He drew a new one for himself: Scapa Flow and backfill of the strait. However, these are emotions.
A few thoughts.
1. The combat stability and performance of the boats would be several times higher if they had air cover and air reconnaissance with an acceptable data obsolescence time.
Göring's policy: "everything that flies is mine!" negatively affected the successes and losses of the Kriegsmarine. ("Bismarck", boats - especially damaged and unable to dive)
2. The efficiency of the boats would be higher if they had the opportunity to act not independently (as a kind of Navy), but in conjunction with the NK and aviation.
The breakthrough of Gunther Prien in Scapa Flow showed that "under the guise" of even the expected "air raid", using stealth, the boat can greatly upset the enemy. A direct, obvious threat - NK and AV - could pull the enemy into the curtain of a submarine - a latent threat - which would quickly turn into a real one.
The modern leadership of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation should remember the lessons of WWII. Only a balanced fleet will be able to fully solve the tasks assigned to it. And for this we must not forget about the construction of the NK ocean zone and attend to the air cover of the fleet in isolation from the naval base.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Boa constrictor KAA

Thank you so much for the article.

Let's thank the Russian alphabet))

Quote: Boa constrictor KAA

The combat stability and performance of the boats would be several times higher if they had air cover and air reconnaissance with an acceptable data obsolescence time.

Where do they order to take them?
M. b. to build an aircraft carrier "Nimitz"? (well, in this case, it would be "GERMAN", at the shipyard in Kiel )

Quote: Boa constrictor KAA

, boats, - especially damaged and unable to dive

Alas, damaged, unable to sink, the boat is doomed

Quote: Boa constrictor KAA

The breakthrough of Gunther Prien in Scapa Flow showed that "under the guise" of even the expected "air raid", using stealth, the boat can greatly upset the enemy. A direct, obvious threat - NK and AV - could pull the enemy into the curtain of a submarine - a latent threat - which would quickly turn into a real one.

Well, as it were, Gunther Prien managed without these complicated and cunning plans.

[Vadivak]

Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

Where do they order to take them?

Oleg in Germany, for example, had 259 Fw-200 military aircraft, but the trouble is that the carriers were with the convoys and initially conceived as a civilian Condor was doomed,


And would you write about the Atlantic convoys, so to speak, the view from the Allies is thankful in advance

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Vadivak

259 Fw-200 military aircraft

Of course, there were such masterpieces as the FW-200C-4 with the Rostok side-looking radar

EMNIP in Command Atlantic used both Junkers and He-177 "Grif"

Quote: Vadivak

but the trouble is that the carriers were with the convoys

Vadim, two key questions:
1. Where were the escorts in 39-43?
2. Who built a hundred escorters? Here, for example, comrade Kars proposed a version with the immaculate conception)))

[Vadivak]

Type - long-range passenger liner,
long range reconnaissance / bomber,
long-range military transport aircraft
Developer- Focke-Wulf Flugzeugbau

[individual]

The analyst compares the confrontation between Germany and the allies at sea before the turn of 1943.
All the more obvious is the convincing defeat of fascist Germany and its entire occupied European military machine by one Soviet Union, also in the crucial year of 1943.
The merits of the Anglo-Saxons took place, but it is impossible to tear out the pages of truth from history.
But the truth is this:
The Soviet Union defeated Nazi Germany in World War II!

[saturn.mmm]

Thank you for the article. I practically agree with everything, but I would also add that in connection with the situation on the eastern front, the Germans significantly reduced the Air Force on the western, which led to the reign of the Allied aviation, this was also a significant minus for the German submarines, if Hitler had a blitzkrieg (Secretary General Gorbachev and Co.) I wonder how the situation would develop? Hitler has an additional 5 million soldiers and unlimited minerals.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: saturn.mmm

Hitler has an additional 5 million soldiers and unlimited minerals.

It is likely that the Reich would become the master of the Atlantic

[cdrt]

It is likely that the Reich would become the master of the Atlantic


Probability is a funny thing. It is likely that the water in the glass will boil by itself. Here is just the time to wait for it exceeds the lifetime of the universe.
In the war with America and the World Bank, the Germans gain dominance in the Atlantic ??? How?
Build more aircraft carriers and battleships? Hmm ... how many years will it take? 15, 20?
Yes, even learn to fight at sea (not to piracy, namely to fight)?
It seems that the German fleet practically did not win against the Britons even in the dreadnought era?
But getting a strategic dead end - yes, they could easily (when domination belongs to no one, the transatlantic transportation system breaks up)

[vmsnick]

Thanks to Japan for Pearl Harbor!

[Su-9]

Quote: vmsnick

Thanks to Japan for Pearl Harbor!

I mean thanks for what? For the fact that they drowned 4 pelvis from which the states had more expenses than sense? For dragging America directly into the war, thereby allowing the Americans to get everything they got at 45? (Including the direct border with the USSR in Korea?) Or thanks for attacking them, and not us in Manchuria? Explain.

[Mhpv]

To understand the atmosphere of those events, it would probably be nice to watch the movie "Das Boot" or even better read the book "Submarine" by Lothar-Gunther Buchheim:
"Annotation

The novel by Lothar-Gunther Buchheim tells about the military campaign of a German submarine during the Second World War. By the will of fate and time, people are put in a situation where it is necessary to kill in order to live - this is the main idea of ​​the book. This is a tough and dynamic piece in which each character is a personality with a capital letter. The author shows in the smallest detail the everyday life of submariners, the routine of death in war, and realistically recreates the oppressive atmosphere of the submarine. "
Not everything was so smooth for the Germans and the British, and in general sea battles require great courage and endurance from people, because just being at sea for a week already makes the crew a nervous ball.

And here are some interesting facts about German submarines:
http://www.u-boote.ru/facts/interest.html

[pinecone]

Quote: Ulysses

In the submarine forces of Germany in the crew surrendered 219 submarines, and all during the war was captured 4103 German submariners.

There are such statistics. By the time the war ended, the German Navy had 375 submarines, of which 219 were sunk by their crews, and 156 were handed over to the Allies at their base or in neutral ports. The last was U-977, which went to sea on May 2 and surrendered to the command of the base of the Argentine Navy in the port of Mar del Plato on August 17, 1945, which subsequently gave rise to many legends, speculation, etc.
Source: http: //www.uboat.net/fates/at-sea.htm

[Ulysses]

Quote: cdrt

The professionalism of German submariners can also be judged by the sunken tonnage per sunken submarine. Count, at the same time compare with the British, Americans and ours. The data is all known in principle.

It is difficult to talk about professionalism with the absolutely unpunished shooting of the defenseless. lonely wandering transports in the Atlantic 39-40 years, or off the coast of the United States at 42m.
The "professionalism" of the Kriegsmarine was deflated in proportion to the increasing resistance of the PLO forces.
After July 1943, "hunters" became "game".
When one destroyed ship had up to a dozen submarines.
It was already a slaughter of the German submarine.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Ulysses

with the absolutely unpunished execution of the defenseless. lonely wandering transports in the Atlantic 39-40 years, or off the coast of the United States at 42m.

I'll cry right now

In 1942, the convoy system worked like a clock - the result of 6,2 million sunk tonnage

Quote: Ulysses

The "professionalism" of the Kriegsmarine was deflated in proportion to the increasing resistance of the PLO forces.
After July 1943, "hunters" became "game".

Since school days it’s known:
he is alone - fight!
there are two of them - think
their three - run

There were pros on each side, another thing is that the fight against submarines was completely ineffective until 5 corvettes and frigates were allocated for each German boat

And to lose in conditions of absolute numerical superiority of the enemy’s forces is a natural and quite obvious matter.

[Ulysses]

Yeah, cry.
The United States entered the war on December 10, 1941, and somehow they began to introduce the convoy system in early May 1942.
During this time, the Germans staged a uniform massacre off the coast of America. (See "drumbeat option")
The record-breaking indicator in this period was achieved by the U-552 commander Erich Topp, who sank 7 vessels with a tonnage of 27 gross tonnage from March 1942 to April 7, 45 in the area of ​​Cape Gatteras. At the same time, the Americans in the first three months of the war could not sink more than one German submarine.

The fight against kriegsmarine was won by coastal aircraft, escort aircraft carriers, with all due respect to the sailors of the strike search groups and escort convoys.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: Ulysses

USA entered the war on December 10, 1941 (see "drumbeat option")

In fact, German boats sank not only American ships

Quote: Ulysses

and the convoy system, at the very least, began to be introduced in early May 1942.

What is the serial number of the convoy roagromic in the Arctic in the summer of 1942?

Quote: Ulysses

A record-breaking indicator in this period was achieved by the U-552 commander Erich Topp, who sank 7 vessels with a tonnage of 27 gross tonnage from March 1942 to April 7, 45 in the area of ​​Cape Gatteras

A drop in the sea. In 1942, the U-bots sank 1149 ships with a tonnage of 6 gt.

Quote: Ulysses

The fight against kriegsmarine was won by coastal aircraft, escort aircraft carriers, with all due respect to the sailors of the strike search groups and escort convoys.

The statistics are not so obvious:

[barbiturate]

what is the number of U bots? liberty lasted 24 days, and the boat? Have you ever been on board a boat? The officers are literate people, can you train for a thousand boats? Will the simplest trim drown you, have you ever been able to sail on the 949A? You are an expert, but only bullshit numbers. And you, dear Oleg, talk to people, so they say and so "You are just deceiving people, another skew. Talk to the commanders of the apl, evaluate the chances, estimate the percentage, the practices will tell you in detail. Why another fufland? You talk to old people (hovaldswerke) in Germany, they will tell you a lot about boats as well)

[Santa Fe]

Quote: barbiturate

But what is the number of U bots?

A total of 820 German boats took part in the hostilities

Quote: barbiturate

liberty stayed for 24 days, and the boat?

an extremely simplified ship and a combat submarine are slightly different things, don’t you find?

Quote: barbiturate

Officers are literate people, can you prepare for a thousand boats?

the Essex crew - 2500 ... 3000 people.
German Type VII crew - 45 people
as many sailors served on one Essex as on 60 U-bots
and on 24 built "Essex" - like on all boats of the Kriegsmarine

crew of "Nimitz" - 5500 people.
the crew of the Yasen nuclear submarine - 90 people.
ratio similarly 1:60

Quote: barbiturate

the simplest trim will drown you, didn’t you swim on the 949A project?

Is this your version of the Kursk death?

Quote: barbiturate

You are an expert, but only bullshit numbers.

barbiturates will ruin you

Quote: barbiturate

Have you ever been aboard a boat?

Yes, the last time - in May of this year. S-189

[Crash88]

I read the article, decided to read the comments, and what I see, 90% sympathize with the Germans and their submarines. Are you crazy, or are the Germans alone on the site?
Like it or not, at that time, Americans and Uglich were allies of the USSR, and each sunken submarine was nearing the end of the brown plague in the world.
You can’t argue with the facts, someone leads them to say that submarines do longer than ships, so it prevented the Germans from making aircraft carriers and other ships and moving them to the coast of the United States, and the facts were that there were only one Nazis and an unfinished aircraft carrier, the United States had them more than a hundred different types, and many US warships guarded the convoys that went to the USSR with the help.

[rocketman]

I also read the article. The first 60% of comments have nothing to do with the topic.
Then they began to sort of sensibly discuss. My knowledge on the topic is based on the book "Hitler's Submarine War" (or something similar). I read it for a long time, the author is an American, but I realized that the Germans were killed by the invention of the magnetron, which made it possible to put radars on small ships and planes and total PLO. And also the shitty quality of German torpedoes, of which a third did not explode after a long stay of the boat under water. (eliminated at the end of 1942). This saved half of the British fleet during the Battle of Norway.
but in general, courage is always courage. Right now, gayrope is raising the issue of recognizing Marinesco as a war criminal for the "attack of the century." Say, there were women and children on Wilhelm Gustlov. As if they weren't on Athenia.

[gramatey]

One of the smiths (grasshoppers?) Of American victory is the Rosie riveter of the remarkable American artist Norman Rockwell.